Posts made before 1/31/11 are considered outdated and should not be referenced back to. I have changed the build after hearing feedback and will continue to do so.
DISCLAIMER: I don't recommend this build to any players below High Platinum/Diamond level. Timings are very very finicky and you need to know how to survive by the skin of your teeth. Players who do not have good unit control and/or have subpar macro will most likely be crushed convincingly.
Update 9; 5/7/11: Pro VODs added!!! TLO + JINRO!! + Show Spoiler +
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65132
Update 8; 4/5/11: Battlecruiser Replay Pack added!! Definitely a must see :D
Update 7; 3/26/11: PATCH 1.3! BC SPEED! MASS BC REPLAY!!! Also, I display how to deal with the Sentry heavy forcefield-on-bunkers push, how to defend a 4 Gate while 2 Rax Stim expanding and killing the dreaded PHOENIX/COLOSSI ball! Check them out!! Much BC usage in this small replay pack =]
Update 6; 3/19/11: Added many new replays detailing how to 2 Rax Expand and transition into this style, many games against Templar + Storms, and a couple losses (one with against a maphacker).
Update 5; 2/28/11: With the newest map pool, I've outlined a new opener, as the maps all have open naturals and make bunkering much less effective at defending early pushes. Also added a How to Engage tab so that you can get a good idea of how to push properly.
Update 4; 1/31/11: COMPLETE OVERHAUL! Everything in this post is DIFFERENT. If you had used this build before previously, things have changed. The metagame has shifted, a new patch has been implemented and Protoss are starting to learn. But that's only made this build stronger. Please reread the guide to get the most up to date experience as possible! + Show Spoiler [Old Updates] +
Update 3; 12/2/10: The build order has changed. Now, three mandatory bunkers for defense have been added to hold off early pressure. I've also updated a lot of out-of-date points for a cleaner and more up to date post!
Update 2; 12/1/10: Revamped the replays! These are much much cleaner replays against better players with lots of different scenarios! Also includes my first loss replay! Check em out! Also added a Applying Early Pressure tab for those of you who love to be aggressive the entire game.
Update 1; 11/27/10: Added a Transitions tab and a Response to Early Pressure tab. This should hopefully answer any questions with defending a 1 Rax FE.
Hello fellow TL community members! I've been a lurker on these forums since the launch of Starcraft 2, and I've decided it's time to stop the anonymity and make my mark on these forums and help further eSports! I do warn you, there is a huge wall of text incoming! (with a few fun pictures :D) Without further ado, I give you:
I am current a ~2400 pt Masters League Terran. I've played Starcraft 2 since launch, and a bit of Brood War (mostly Fastest Map Possible xD), so I know my way around this game well enough.
With this build, I have 95% win rate against Protoss and recently won the Giantbomb Community Tournament with heavy usage of this build
I created this build because I, just like every other Terran player, despise something when we play against a Protoss. This something, is that ONE UNIT that Protoss have that we hate to go up against! You guys know what unit I'm talking about.
THE COLOSSUS
As Terrans, we HATE to go up against this bad boy. With it's 9 range, and excellent mobility, it is the weapon of choice for Protoss to slice through our bioballs with ease. What I hate most about going up against these is how to kill them. You might think, "Well just get vikings and kill them HURRDURR". Well, in my experience, vikings don't kill colossi NEARLY quickly enough, and just a few shots on your stimmed bio wipes it out almost instantly. Literally one misclick and lose your entire army. Stalkers standing in front of the colossi and under the vikings can easily snipe those precious Colossi-killers. I wanted to find a way to deal with these monsters of a unit, without having to lose my entire army in the process.
After much TL lurking, I came across an interesting thread with a very interesting point:
Banshees do more DPS to Colossi than Vikings
Hmmm....interesting! I read on further about this, and saw the argument that vikings are more cost-effective, as they have a longer range than banshees and can be reactored out of a Starport to quickly mass numbers. The consensus among the posters was that Banshees were not the answer to Colossi.
I disagreed. And after playing a few games with this point in mind, I created the FE 4 Starport Banshee build, better known as THE ANTI COLOSSI BUILD.
Well, this isn't a very conventional build is it? Let's dissect it!
The heart of this build is to get a critical mass of banshees out against your unsuspecting Protoss opponent in a quick and safe manner. Everyone fears the banshee. I mean EVERYONE! These cloaked killers can wreck a mineral in seconds if left unchecked. What people fail to notice however, is their above average air-to-ground DPS!
Banshee: 140 HP 12 Dmg x 2 Per attack 0 Armor 150 Minerals, 100 gas to Make Light Classification 3 Supply 17.6 DPS
Well, as many of you have tried, when you go 2 Port Banshee, those stalkers rip through your banshees easily. However, en masse, these maidens of the sky are UNSTOPPABLE! Instead of using them as a harass unit, I added these as a part of my main army. In 12 minutes of game time, I can spit out 8-10 banshees. What's going to kill that?! Of course the obvious answer is the staple unit of the Protoss.
Stalker: 80 HP 80 Shields (160 EH) 10 Dmg (+4 vs armored) per attack 125 Minerals, 50 gas to make Armored Classification 2 Supply 6.94 DPS (9.72 vs armored)
Simply put, the answer to banshees as Protoss is the stalker. However, there is one VERY crucial thing to note about this unit matchup.
The Banshee is a Light unit!
As a light unit, the banshee only takes 10 damage per shot from the stalker, which allows the banshee to take 14 hits before dying to one stalker, whereas it only takes a banshee 7 shots to kill a stalker. In a one-on-one encounter, the banshee flies away with half its health left. Unmicroed, A Protoss would need twice as many stalkers as there are banshees to win an encounter. Very reasonable for a Protoss, as mass banshee is not part of the current PvT metagame, and stalkers are very easily spammable. But when faced with 8-10 banshees 12 minutes into a game, this changes up VERY quickly!
An average midgame Protoss army against a Terran consists of a mixture of Gateway units, 2-4 colossi and 1-2 observers. This build will give you a sizable army of combat shield marines with stim (~30), 8-10 banshees, and a raven. If you know anything about the Polt Timing attack, you can already tell this is that composition on steroids. Eat your heart out.
Also, if you deny scouting well by using your Thor, your opponent makes Immortals! I've had quite a few opponents go mass Immortal Zealot after scouting Marine/Thor. Guess how well that works against Banshees =]
Build Order 1 (for maps with small, choked naturals): + Show Spoiler +
Refer to this thread on how to open 2 Rax FE with Bunkers (which is what this build uses)
10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks 14 Barracks 15 Orbital 15 Marine 16 Supply Depot CUT MARINES AT 13 (Fills 3 bunkers + 1 scout), Nonstop SCVs 26 CC @ Natural 26 Supply Depot 27 Refinery x2 ---> 3SCVs on each gas 30 Bunker x3 @ Natural's Choke (Numbers are inconsistent at this point, will just lay basic building timing out) Orbital @ Nat Double Gas @ Nat -> 3 SCVs on each gas *Important* Factory -> Tech Lab -> 2nd Tech Lab when first finishes. Armory + Starport when Factory finishes Starport -> Move onto empty tech lab when finished Cloak + Raven + Thor Get 2 Thors and start Banshee production
At this point, you have to deny scouting with your Thor/Raven. After;
Build Barracks #3, Add 2 reactors + tech lab to Barracks Starport x3 ---> Tech Labs when finished Make Banshees, Marines, Stim + upgrades. Push at ~11 Banshees. Start 3rd Base, build a Fusion Core and get Ship Plating upgrades
Build Order 2 (For maps with open, wide naturals): + Show Spoiler +
10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks 13 Refinery -> 3 SCVs 15 Orbital 16 Marine -> Tech Lab on Barracks after Marine completes -> Stim + Constant marauders 16 Supply Depot
(Numbers irrelevant from here on out)
Research Stim -> Conc. Shells after Stim 2nd Barracks -> Constant marines Command Center at Natural once minerals build to 400 (~35 supply) Take 2nd Gas + Factory Orbital at Natural once CC completes -> CUT MARAUDER PRODUCTION -> Constant Marines. Double Gas at Natural as soon as CC finishes, maynard ~10 SCVs. Add 1-2 Bunkers at easiest choke to defend. Starport after Factory completes -> Tech Lab on Factory -> Hotswap Starport onto Tech Lab Raven -> Deny scouting Start 3 additional starports + 3rd Rax, Reactor on both barracks. Constant Banshee production.
This is a macro-based build. I prefer to do this build on maps with an easily defendable natural, so I chose to exempt Delta Quadrant, Scrap Station and Blistering Sands from my map pool. I am also explaining this build with the assumption that you looked at the build order and can refer back to it.
We open with a 2 Rax CC at 26 supply. The reason we do this, is because this is a VERY gas intensive build, and we'll need those extra geysers the expansion to fund production from 4 starports, as well as having 2 Rax to fast expand allows for a very solid early game defense. Scout with your SCV that made the depot and look for any signs of cheese or deviation from the standard. Deny scouting as much as possible with your marines.
As soon as your command center finishes, you'll want to start rallying your marines in front of the natural to defend any pushes. Get those bunkers up ASAP! Bunker at the choke to COMPLETELY wall it off, and fill with marines ASAP. Create a control group of auto-repairing SCVs in case you need a fast pull. Cut marines when you have 13.
The build is focused on teching fast while defending early pushes. Your starport should follow immediately after the factory finishes, and you'll want to get that factory shortly after your bunkers go up. The build is focused on teching fast while defending early pushes. Your starport and armory should follow immediately after the factory finishes, and you'll want to get that factory shortly after your bunkers go up. Thor/Raven is a great combo for killing the observer quickly and allowing you to at least get your starports built without being scouted too quickly. The next step is to add another Barracks while you put two reactors on the other two, and then grabbing a Tech Lab on the new one to research Stim/Shields. Now, with your newly finished Starport, you'll want to get cloak researching and make a raven along with a Thor from your factory. Get 2 Thors for optimal observer sniping.
I cannot stress how IMPORTANT the raven is to this build
Get it first, get it fast. This will help you deny scouting as much as possible. Loop around your base to clean out any observers with your marines and raven so that you can hide your tech as much as possible. Scouted, this build loses potency but is still EXTREMELY powerful, but unscouted, YOU WIN.
Make sure you take advantage of any watchtowers on the map, extra scouting is key. It's helpful to sac a marine or two into the enemy base to get a better idea of the army composition you'll be facing. Constant scans help extremely well also. If the enemy went Colossi, you are almost guaranteed TO WIN.
You'll want to grab those 3 starports shortly after killing the observer. Once those are finished, add tech labs and crank the banshees out. At this point, your marines + raven should be plenty to hold off any Gateway aggression. Once you have 6 banshees, you can salvage the bunkers for money back. Now is the fun part. After three rounds of banshee production, you have your army and are ready to move out.
GRAB YOUR THIRD AND A FUSION CORE AS YOU PUSH OUT.
Continue non-stop production of banshees, marines and scvs. Make sure to rally your reinforcements to your army.
You'll engage the Protoss force with your marine/banshee heavy army against what is likely to have 3-4 colossi and a mix of gateway units. Perfect. With the raven, you will want to throw down a PDD (or 2 if you have energy) asap and look around for the observer that's floating in the enemy army. Cloak your banshees right away and stim your marines for fast dps. Snipe the obs with your marines/Thors. THIS IS YOUR #1 PRIORITY. No detection = autowin. This allows your banshees to do INSANE damage to everything! Because the Protoss invested in colossi, they will not have enough stalkers to deal with your banshees. Your marines are only a meat shield for the banshees, expect the colossi to melt them away. In case your raven dies and you managed to save a few marines, keep a few scans handy. You don't need the extra minerals from the MULE. Use scans to snipe obs!
If the Protoss scouted you correctly and went Phoenix, your Thors should do very well against those, as it only takes a few volleys to kill them. If it looks like you will lose the battle, salvage the banshees you have and prepare for a BC transition (Discussed farther in the post).
The dust clears, and all that's left are 8-10 cloaked banshees wreaking havoc in the enemy base. The engagement should last literally 20 seconds tops. GG. More banshees are marines should be following this up for a quick and easy clean up. Colossi problem solved.
With this opening, you are opting for a 2 Rax Stim Expand, which will give you a very mobile bio army to defend any 1 base pushes with. Your scouting needs to be a little better with this opener than the other, because it isn't quite as durable as the 3 Bunker Marine expand. If you scout early stargates or Immortals, you need to get as many marines as possible to deal with Void Rays and Immortal, as marauders will get destroyed.
This opener also allows you to apply early pressure if you choose to do so. More information regarding this push can be found in the Applying Early Bio Pressure tab.
You also will not be able to get two Thors out with this opener as your gas will be spent teching faster than the other opener because you will not have the luxury to bank gas, but rather spend it on early defense via Marauders + Stim/Shell. However, MM + Bunker will give you a solid defense that you can constantly add units onto, rather than sit on only 12 marines with the other opener.
You transition out of your Fast Expand just like you would in Build Order 1. Get the Raven out first to deny scouting, and then add on the additional three Starports to begin Banshee production. The rest of the build flows just as it should as soon as the Raven pops.
Defending 1 base pushes with this opener will be very similar to the other opener, as you will still have a couple of bunkers to help defend, but a sturdier army to defend with. Stim+Shell will give you a lot of defensive power early on, especially if your micro is good. So long as you constantly push units out and don't get caught off guard because your scouting was poor, then your Stim Expand should be more than enough to hold off anything.
The point of this thread is to give Terran a lategame that holds up against the massive AoE that Protoss gets which demolishes bio. No matter how you open, you can transition into Banshee play and I believe that should be the goal of all Terrans, as I feel that it is the most powerful option against Protoss.
The two options of early pressure I like to use to do damage and expand safely are:
2 Rax Stim Timing Push Concussive Shell Rush
With 2 Rax Stim, you open standard, grab a tech lab after your first marine, and begin stim while making a second barracks. Produce constant Marines and Marauders and push when stim finishes. Your push should consist of 5 Marines + marauders. DON'T OVERCOMMMIT. This is not a game ending push, but rather one to do a little damage and let you expand safely. Snipe what you can, retreat if you get overwhelmed. Use your remaining bio to defend your expansion and add bunkers as necessary while teching for Banshees. You probably won't have the income to support Thors with this, so skip them and go straight for mass Banshee play.
Concussive Shell Rush is a quick push with 2 Marauders and 1 Marine with the slow as your weapon. You can win games with this quite early if you have the micro to kite zealots and pick off the stalkers quickly. Again, don't overcommit, pick off what you can and then get out. Same deal as a 2 Rax Push really.
The great part about these pushes are that they force the Protoss down the Robo tech tree, as they most likely expect the standard mass bio transition, which you totally dominate with Stargate tech. Good use of mindgames
Once you have your army and are ready to push, it is very important that you micro your army properly, because this army is not very easily replaceable, due to the high cost of the core of your army.
When you engage, you should already have a general idea of what kind of army composition you should be facing. If your scout denying went well, then you should be looking at a Colossi + Gateway army mixture. Otherwise, you may see Stargate units or fast Templar tech.
The general rule of thumb when engaging is to follow three simple steps:
1. Double PDD from Raven 2. Stim Marines and snipe Observers 3. Cloak Banshees and spread/micro
When you push into the Protoss base, you should have capped out the energy in your Raven. This allows for two PDDs and really helps you shut down the AA of the Protoss.
By far the most important part of this push is to snipe the observer as fast as possible. No detection means you can take out the entire enemy army. Banshees are faster than all of the Protoss ground units and can give chase and snipe any fleeing units.
Against Colossi + Gateway
When facing Colossi + Gateway, be prepared to lose your entire ground army to the push, as the Protoss will have built an army for that purpose. Your banshees will automatically focus fire any stalkers or sentries in that army, and should easily clean up anything left behind. This is the ideal situation.
Against Stargate
When facing a Stargate composed army, it is important to note what is there and if you can win the fight. If the composition is Phoenix heavy, RUN AWAY. It is absolutely not worth it to trade your Banshees for killing the Protoss ground army. His army is much more easily replaceable. However, if you were able to take out the Observer, kill everything you can, but do not chase into the Protoss base. Pull back, get your BCs out and push back in. If you can do some harass with a Banshee or two, go for it.
If the Stargate composition is Void Ray heavy, then judge if you will be able to take them out with your Marines. Take out as many Void Rays as possible, then fall back if you were not able to deny detection. This army composition isn't nearly as scary as Phoenix based one, but you still do not want to overcommit in the slightest. Pump out a couple rounds of Vikings to deal with them and then get BCs with Yamato. Yamato is a huge game changer vs Void Rays.
Against Templar Tech
Engaging against HTs is completely dependent on your storm dodging skills. Banshees have a nasty habit of stacking on each other when they engage, so you need to be very wary of storms on top of them. The best way to handle this is to split your banshees up as much as possible to mitigate storms. It takes 2 full storms to kill a banshee, so keep moving as much as you can to try and soak three storms or more.
Feedback is not an issue simply because there are too many banshees to feedback. If the Protoss decides the Feedback your banshees, then he sacrifices storms and your marine army will be much more powerful. This is by far the most dangerous composition to face because you can lose all your banshees very quickly if you mismicro. However, if you can dodge storms, this should be a very easy composition for you to face.
Protoss Early pressure can come at you in a few ways, mainly the 4 Gate timing push, 3 Gate Robo push and 3 Gate Stargate with void rays. In order to deal with these in an efficient manner, you need GOOD SCOUTING! More will be explained in detail below....
4 Gate Pressure
4 Gate used to be a solid counter against this build. That is no more. Now this build opener destroys it. With 2 barracks, you instantly fill all three of the bunkers right at the 4 Gate timing, which is all you need to crush this push. When the push arrives, simply pull the SCVs from your natural (which you have in a control group with auto repair enabled), and repair the bunkers. I have yet to have a 4 Gate get through my bunkers. Beat the push and you have a HUGE lead with a high chance of a win.
What you want to scout for when looking for a 4 Gate is:
1. Saved Chronoboosts!!! This is the largest implication of a 4 Gate 2. 1 Gas for an extended period of time. 4 Gate only needs 1 Gas to be effective. 3. No sentries. Sentries are usually not mixed in with a 4 Gate as they cut away from the DPS of the push. If you see a sentry, expect an expansion rather than a push.
You'll want to be looking for these key features when scouting/scanning. A proxy pylon is also very common. Some locations may be your gold expo on LT, the outside ledge, or just outside your back door rocks or ridge on Jungle Basin. Patrol marines in this area to deny proxies.
3 Gate Robo
We're talking about a fast and early zealot/stalker/immortal push here. This push will hit when the Protoss has 1-2 immortals, and depends on how quickly they built their Robo, whether they went 1Gate-Robo-2Gate, or 3-Gate-Robo. Either way, defending this push is very similar to holding the 4 gate off.
You're going to want to focus fire the immortals as fast as possible to minimize the damage against your bunkers. Immortals aren't too great against marines, which your army will already be heavy with, but they do a number to bunkers. Superior focus firing and clutch SCV defensive pulls are what will help you stop this push. This push comes later than 4 Gate, but has more potential to break your line. Be wary!
3 Gate Stargate
This build focuses around Void Rays doing the majority of the damage. What the Protoss wants to do here is use the Void Rays to spot into your base and warp past your bunkers using a proxy pylon. You NEED to have a Marine patrolling the edge of your base so you can stop any possible proxies, otherwise your defense will be bypassed and you'll be in big trouble.
On 2 barracks, you can make plenty of marines to deal with the void rays, but you need to scout for the Stargate since you will have already cut marine production prior to the push. Force engagements at your bunkers, or pick off stray Void Rays and you'll be in great shape going into the midgame.
A fast expanding Protoss is a non-aggressive Protoss in the early game. Expect thorough scouting of your base however. You'll both be on even level in terms of economy, so getting your tech to go unscouted plays a huge role here. As long as you have solid macro and can deny scouting decently, you should be just fine. 6 Gate Allins can be tricky, but you deal with it as you would with a 4 Gate, and you'll have your tech to back you up here.
DT Rush
A very fast DT rush (8 minutes) comes just before a Raven is available. They won't be able to bypass your wall if you're repairing however, so as long as you get a Raven immediately following the Starport, you'll be able to take of any DTs quickly.
Blink Stalker Rush
Aye....this push is by far the most difficult to deal with. The blink stalkers bypass your bunkers without too much trouble and can kite marines infinitely. The best thing you can do is skip your raven for a cloaked banshee and hope that you can minimize as much damage as you can while your thor and banshee build. The best thing you can do is try and get surrounds with your SCVs, which you HAVE to pull, and pick off as many stalkers as possible. It's nearly a hard counter here, so do your best with micro and stall for your banshee.
In the strange case that you trade armies with the Protoss, you'll be forced into an awkward position, where your number of banshees isn't as effective anymore, and you have barracks only really suited to pump marines. Where do we go from here?
Battlecruiser Tech
When you move out with your initial push, you're grabbing your third and throwing a Fusion Core down. Upgrade Ship Plating as well, as this is the most useful upgrade for your BCs as they'll mainly be there to tank damage more than deal it out.
A third base with Gas allows for constant BC production out of 4 Starports. However, you don't want to mass BCs too heavily because of their subpar DPS. It's all about finding the right mix of BCs to Banshees. I've found 2 BCs out of 2 port and 2 Banshees out of the other two works perfectly.
Protoss Anti-air is subpar when dealing with BCs. Stalkers en masse can deal with them, but with banshee and marine support along with MULE calldowns for repairs, stalkers are hard pressed to kill these bad boys. The second response is Void Rays, which can be dealt with by the Battlecruisers themselves, or with supporting marines. Make a couple rounds of vikings if you opponent invests heavily in Void Rays to take them out quickly. Either way, a Battlecruiser transition brings out the biggest weapon of destruction against Protoss and can swing battles into your favor.
A fast Stargate with lots of Phoenix do very well against this build, along with either chargelots or Colossi to clean up the marines. However, with two Thors in your initial push, Phoenix can get shut down very quickly as long as you snipe the obs and let your banshees reign free.
High templars are either hit or miss, depending on how storms land. The AI of the banshee will make it so that they stack quite a bit while hitting their targets, so try your best to spread your banshees as much as possible to mitigate the AoE. Once the initial storms are used though, the remaining banshees will usually be able to take care of everything.
Feedback is a non-issue. There are just waaaaaay too many banshees to feedback effectively, shutting down one of the avenues a Protoss might try and use to beat the banshees.
Anything that bypasses the bunker wall hurts a lot. The worst is a Blink Stalker Rush. Be diligent about scouting for warp prisms/proxies and get a cloaked Banshee out ASAP if you scout Blink.
For those of you who would like to reach me, my ingame ID is: Synystyr.193
I also run a stream on Livestream.com/Synystyr.
If you made it through this entire post, I commend you. I hope this post has been informative and can help those Terrans who hate playing against Colossi come out ahead. Please leave any feedback and replays you might have! Thanks a lot TL ^_^
Very well constructed! I am an avid fan of banshee play but like you kind of stated, early aggression with stalkers and especially blink stalkers can really tear this build apart. I may have to give it a few try's on ladder. Thanks for the quality post!
well, i would like to add some things. no plain claims, but solid math and expirience. of you have one banshee and i have one stalker at his eco, the banshee can kill 8 probes before dying. if you have 2 stalkers, of course, the banshee can kill 4 probes, which makes it still kinda worth it. so with 8 banshees, you basically force your opponent, to have about 16(!) stalkers at each of his bases.
the counter propably would be templar, if i scouted such a thing, i would add a citadel and went for templar for feedback, some of the excess minerals i would propably spend on canons, because they do a much better job. also, you should always have 1-2 ravens with you and maybe 1-2 vikings, maybe you get an obs kill, which is autowin. transition to battlecruisers, if you do it like bratok and emp them, there is no good counter to them and have enough starports anyways.
As a 2100 protoss if I ever see that kind of opening where you're going pure marines at the start I'm pretty sure you're going to go banshee...
First off most 4 gate or 3 gate pressure will beat this build, blink stalkers are the standard counter to a suspected mass banshee play, your FE is WAY to vulnerable... I mean really vulnerable. You need to add 2-4 bunkers at least with your expansion if you think for a second you 4-5 marines are going to hold against a non-retarded toss. No attachment bunker is the biggest lightbulb in the world for toss plays to know your opponent is going banshee...
According to your build by 60 food I'm looking at 10-20 marines max and a raven... That's all... I honestly don't think your BO is accurate or what the protoss opponents you have been facing were doing.
This build hits WAY later than a standard 3-1-2 banshee marine build does, because of that rather than hitting when there is 1 colossus with no range out you could easily run into 2-4 colossus with range+phoenixes(btw this rapes your build) The delay of your build compared to the standard build also allows for a protoss to get HT with storm and amulet researched which again instantly murders your build. HT chargelot, mass blink, and colossus+phoenix all crush this build and because your build is simply to slow you should expect to see them.
Holy damn. The Protoss in the third replay does not build probes at 10/18, waits for his minerals to hit 500... and then builds a gateway. Haha.
Anyway, this looks like the same composition as the polt timing attack, only the timing is later. The standard protoss response to polt at the moment is quick phoenix and I think by the time your later timing attack hits, there will be quite a few phoenix.
You'd need to grab a protoss practice buddy and test it out, but I don't think this more powerful than an earlier attack with the same composition.
And you probably also need to test if your FE holds. 1 rax FE into 1-1-1... seems pretty greedy to me. If the toss goes 4 gate and sends his first units right away... can you hold that?
I have looked at a few replays but I haven't come across one where you execute this cleanly. Either he attacks you or you attack him, killing his expo with MM (wrong replay?) or with the banshees alone. Can you say at what time your attack hits (assuming nothing happens to derail the build) and what units you have? Since you're producing from a rax without an add on for most of the time, you probably don't have that many marines?
to be honest it is a good idead of using mass banshee, but from replays i ve seen your opponents havent been any good tho. their APM is <50 makes me wonder of the quality of their play. Also as was stated above, 20 CC against protoss is risky, very very risky.
It's a good idea to use Banshee but I find that going for 4 ports is a little over kill. Just 2 Rax Select FE into 2 port and get cloaked banshee -> BCs.
Well assuming I don't decide to break down your no gas expo...
Your 2 stargate analysis is kind of funny because you mention if i get out 4 or 6 void rays. Well, whenever I build stargates it's almost always for phoenixes. If your push is at 12 minutes, I will have colossus out in addition to phoenix, with which I will attempt to harass your banshee - and this is assuming I am playing really blind and don't see 4 stargates, which I will because you are putting them down at 64 supply.
So, I should have 2 colossus out at least, a good amount of gateway units, and I am unsure how many phoenix I would have, but it would be sufficient for 8 banshee if controlled well, so that I don't drop them to marines.
Not gonna lie, if I mismicro at all I can lose, like vs any terran push, which always pisses me off cause the terran can basically a-move . But, it's not particularly difficult to hold, and definitely easier to old than other mid game pushes.
edit - willing to practice some against it later today if you are willing to, mainly because I don't think this is viable once you see how it works and learn the defense, because the margin for error is so much greater than it is vs other midgame pushes. aPs.173, a bit out of practice atm since I havent played much 1v1 recently (lol 110 bonus pool), but 2352 anyways so I should be half decent practice at least ^^;;
Its really good that you put alot of effort in writing up this build, but in my honest opinion this is a very, very poorly constructed build. Your defence being marines from one barracks in bunkers to live all the way until you suddenly have 3 barracks (with more time being spent on reactors) and 4 starports running is so paperthin, it sounds like a very low-apm lazy stratagy that would not beat, as many people have noted, competant protoss's. I do not recommend anyone following this build.
There is already multiple topics in regards to a raven banshee marine push that is a much more efficient, safe and technical version of this.
First off. Generally the rule for a strategy if it is Terran used against Protoss You call it a TvP, PvT FE suggests a build where you (the protoss player) are fast expaning against a Terran.
But that's just nitpicking.
As for the strategy. I think you are being very excessive. Do you really need to drop an expansion to get double gas to make FOUR starports to make banshees...... Or would it be smarter to do that off of one base in 1/3 the time.
Second of all if a protoss fast expands undisturbed you are going to have a NIGHTMARE trying to use this on him. We tend to scout, and when we se 4 starports with tech labs, we make phoenixes...and colossi, and a shitload of zealots. Last time I checked 90% of Terrans were complaining about how they had to win the game within 12 minutes or some B.S. the point is, you want to avoid a late game toss especially if marines are a big part of your build.
I appreciate the amount of work you put into your build. But this is basically just delayed bancheese.
As for things that make me sad..... When a terran player thinks glass cannon marines are "meatshields". When mass blink stalkers is something T has to worry about early game.
On November 27 2010 17:21 Synystyr wrote: In a one-on-one encounter, the banshee flies away with half its health left. Unmicroed, A Protoss would need twice as many stalkers as there are banshees to win an encounter.
I wanted to point out a theory error. Two stalkers don't just have twice as much health as one, they also do twice as much damage. This data point implies for an even match, the second stalker would have to start off half-dead.
It's also very significant that Banshees and Stalkers have the same range, because it means Banshees can get a lot of benefit from exploiting the mobility and stacking benefits of being air units.
On November 27 2010 23:59 bobcat wrote: First off. Generally the rule for a strategy if it is Terran used against Protoss You call it a TvP, PvT FE suggests a build where you (the protoss player) are fast expaning against a Terran.
But that's just nitpicking.
As for the strategy. I think you are being very excessive. Do you really need to drop an expansion to get double gas to make FOUR starports to make banshees...... Or would it be smarter to do that off of one base in 1/3 the time.
Second of all if a protoss fast expands undisturbed you are going to have a NIGHTMARE trying to use this on him. We tend to scout, and when we se 4 starports with tech labs, we make phoenixes...and colossi, and a shitload of zealots. Last time I checked 90% of Terrans were complaining about how they had to win the game within 12 minutes or some B.S. the point is, you want to avoid a late game toss especially if marines are a big part of your build.
I appreciate the amount of work you put into your build. But this is basically just delayed bancheese.
As for things that make me sad..... When a terran player thinks glass cannon marines are "meatshields". When mass blink stalkers is something T has to worry about early game.
Woah, everything I was gonna say here. Doesn't look optimized from a gas perspective and protoss's scouting from a 1gate FE is usually very thorough. I'll crank out phoenix fast upon scouting 4 ports.
You guys don't get it. You don't get a observer into his base to scout the 4 port. its placed back in the base and the raven will detect the observer + marines. When executing this build, you focus fire observer and the banshee is really killer when cloaked. Raven spots high ground, and point defense drones kill toss.
You may not think that this build works, im a 1800 toss and when point defense drones are put and my observers are focus fired, its a gg. Its the anti collosos build. And I hate it.
Well put Synystr, play you on the ladder again sometime.
On November 28 2010 05:18 SoftSoap wrote: You guys don't get it. You don't get a observer into his base to scout the 4 port. its placed back in the base and the raven will detect the observer + marines. When executing this build, you focus fire observer and the banshee is really killer when cloaked. Raven spots high ground, and point defense drones kill toss.
You may not think that this build works, im a 1800 toss and when point defense drones are put and my observers are focus fired, its a gg. Its the anti collosos build. And I hate it.
Well put Synystr, play you on the ladder again sometime.
I think you misunderstand the other posters in this thread, the critique isnt the strength of the unit composition, but the strength of the build. The major flaw in this build is that getting to the unit composition is very doubtful against half good protoss players.
Edit: The strength of the unit composition is also questioned, as a previous guy said, banshees can be easily countered by phoenixes + zealots.
You put a lot of work into this, and it is well constructed. I've been loving the idea of four starports on two bases. The target of 4 starports and 3 barracks(TRR) is great, but getting there could probably be smoother. A 1 rax fast expand into tech is pretty dang risky, normal 1 rax expand builds have even fallen out of favor and they get a lot of barracks after expanding to defend a push. Of course a wall of bunkers can hold off gateway units but normal colossus timings should put 2 of them at your base before the starports kick in. That's my primary concern as far as standard robo builds go. High temp play concerns me too but with cloak and constant harrass you should be fine as long as you don't clump up too much.
I don't use the word "counter". Banshees are strong enough that they can hold their own against stalkers, but you should account for phoenixes. Stargate play will probably not be void rays, and whether they see the 4 ports or not, Protoss will usually infer banshees from your front door. Zealot Phoenix is a very normal response to this kind of play and I don't think it's wise to ignore it or write it off. This does not mean the build is bad or that it is "hard countered" by zealot phoenix. You can still do terrible terrible damage and banshees in these numbers will live long enough to clear room for the marines. I think the build will do fine if you play well. I'm just concerned about the opening.
I've actually been thinking about mass banshees as a follow-up to the 2 Thor push. You secure an adequately timed expansion and put serious pressure on Protoss, usually delaying or killing his expo. Then you can pull back, drop a bunch of starports (stop making thors, you only need a few), and get marines and banshees. You only need a few thors to shoot observors and phoenixes from 10 range and bring some scvs to auto repair thors and banshees. I talked about this idea in that thread too, and I like the opening because you are pretty safe behind your early pressure. Just don't go all-in with it. The OP of that thread didn't articulate a mid-game plan but yours fits nicely.
Finally, I like your logic, whether you noticed it yourself or not. The only reason banshees aren't great against colossi is because I'm not making enough of them! As silly as it sounds, I completely agree.
meh this look too fragile in the early game to me.
I always scout for a long time with my first probe and then I send a zealot at his front to see if he goes only marines or if marauders are produced, if not I begin mass stalkers and harass him at his front going for 3Gates Stalkers at least and if I feel it 4 Gate + proxy, you cannot expand against that and it forces you to get more barracks unit or maybe tanks.
But I won't throw away the fact a transition to 8 banshees is scary for protoss. When not seen and no phoenixes in play it can do wonders. I just don't feel the early play unless you're opponent is clearly not being agressive.
I will wait until you post better replays or an analysis of them of why your play is solid at any questionable moment of the game.
First of all, thank you to everyone for the feedback. I am very aware of the early game weaknesses and rest assured that I have answers to all of your questions and dealing with this ^_^. I'll answer everything with replays and such as soon as I get out of work, this is just me letting you guys know that I am reading this and will reply! Thanks again and keep it coming!
Used to do this a lot...it's "sky mech" but it loses to mass templar stalker, unless you hit clutch EMPs. It's prob pretty good now though cause most protoss probably forgot about it lol.
On November 28 2010 05:18 SoftSoap wrote: You guys don't get it. You don't get a observer into his base to scout the 4 port. its placed back in the base and the raven will detect the observer + marines. When executing this build, you focus fire observer and the banshee is really killer when cloaked. Raven spots high ground, and point defense drones kill toss.
You may not think that this build works, im a 1800 toss and when point defense drones are put and my observers are focus fired, its a gg. Its the anti collosos build. And I hate it.
Well put Synystr, play you on the ladder again sometime.
I think you misunderstand the other posters in this thread, the critique isnt the strength of the unit composition, but the strength of the build. The major flaw in this build is that getting to the unit composition is very doubtful against half good protoss players.
Edit: The strength of the unit composition is also questioned, as a previous guy said, banshees can be easily countered by phoenixes + zealots.
We aren't talking about phoenix zealot we are talking about a anti robotics build. This build doesn't let you scout the terrans base cause of raven. and this build shouldn't be executed if you don't see a robo bay.
I think Fuzer did this build in the TL Open semi's against Joe, he threw down 4 Starports immediately though and it got scouted due to not having a raven out for observer killing. He still won because Joe sent his phoenixes to Fuzer's main while the banshees hit his expansion.
I'm currently working on a similar build, but I throw down just 2 Starports and get an armory for air attack upgrades. Then I take a third and transition into BC's
PS. do you have replays against a well timed 4-gate rush? It seems like your bunkers wouldn't be up in time and your 1 Rax marines would get totally run over :S
Alright, well I'm back from work now and I'm ready to answer a few of the questions floating around. Firstly and most importantly, is the issue of early pressure and holding my Fast Expand. In the majority of my games, my opponent fast expanded as well. Scouting this gave me the go-ahead to tech in a greedy manner. If I were to scout early pressure from a 3 or 4 gate push, I'd have transitioned to defend it.
Out of my replay archive, I could only find one replay which had any decent early game pressure. The quality of this replay is questionable. This was the very first time I attempted this build, so it is by no means clean. However, the basic idea is there, and so is the early pressure.
This replay features a lot of interesting 3-pronged harass and pushes from my protoss opponent, while I struggle to defend against it. What I took away as important from this game was that although I lost my expansion, it gave me more than enough time to get my 5 Banshees out and clean up the push and counter attack for the win. This is by no means the ideal replay to defend my point, so take it with a grain of salt. It's all I have now.
On a similar note, I have added Transitions and Responding to Early Pressure tabs to the OP. This helps flesh the build out a bit better versus early pressure and defending a naked expansion. Most of the questions currently in this thread should hopefully be answered in there.
Moving on, I'd like to touch base on these points:
On November 27 2010 18:05 Lobber wrote:
The delay of your build compared to the standard build also allows for a protoss to get HT with storm and amulet researched which again instantly murders your build. HT chargelot, mass blink, and colossus+phoenix all crush this build and because your build is simply to slow you should expect to see them.
False. The push is fast enough that a midgame protoss will ONLY have HT OR Colossi. While High Templar would do an excellent job at countering this push, they first need to have storm and Amulet researched to fend off the banshees in a decent manner. Teching to high templar over colossi is unusual, and may be a response to seeing four starports, but rest assured that I deny scouting before I build my ports. Getting the banshees out is not the fastest thing ever, but the build is defendable enough to allow the banshees to come out.
On November 28 2010 04:57 Danglars wrote:
Doesn't look optimized from a gas perspective and protoss's scouting from a 1gate FE is usually very thorough. I'll crank out phoenix fast upon scouting 4 ports.
The beauty of this build, is how the gas is acquired and spent. It is not so important to have a large gas pool built up but rather have a large amount of gas income. Off two bases, you can support constant 4 Starport Banshee Production plus minor spending in researching upgrades or buildings marauders.
And I'll never let you scout the starports. You'll see a 1-1-1 build and the response to that is stalkers, rather than phoenix. Once the raven is out and the obs is dead, the starports will begin building banshees, and if by some chance you scout the starports later on, you most likely do not have stargates to begin with and can't get a useful number of phoenixs out before I push. All speaking from a theorycrafter's point of view though. Once I get more replays against play like this, I'll revisit the topic.
Keep the feedback coming and check out the new Transitions and Responses to Early Pressure tabs!
Interesting build. I've been doing a 2 rax/2 starport build off one base for a few months. Glad to see someone else enjoys using the marine/banshee strat, even if it's a bit different than mine.
Funny. If I see a 1-1-1 build, my reaction is to get a stargate
In fact, that's what I'll probably do more often than not. The only time I won't is if I notice a lot of marauders coming out early, in which case I opt to spend chronoboosts on immortals and warp in zealot/sentry. Yes, I've spent time and gas getting a robo bay, but that's just part of playing protoss.
Yes, I know you say you deny scouting with a raven, but if I see a raven, I'll be even more inclined to opt to get a stargate due to the likelyhood of a Polt timing attack. Also, your raven can't be everywhere at once, and if you're hellbent on spending gas and time to get several ravens to try and deny all scouting, I'll be more inclined to opt to get 2 stargates and chrono out 6 or so phoenixes and just fly into your base and kill the raven/any banshees. (I can't tell you how many times I've seen a poor protoss player just fly their observer directly into their opponent's base, and not to the sides/around back. Wasted observers make me cry)
Of course you're going to go marine heavy, since this build uses up a lot of gas. Then again, unless you're keeping your marines all clustered under your banshees, you're going to lose quite a few to phoenixes.
On November 28 2010 13:45 Antisocialmunky wrote: If I see mass marine off 2 base, I'd know you be doing this. :-\
Interesting point. I could argue that if I was a Zerg who scouted mass marine off 2 base, I might suspect Marine/Raven. This build does reveal itself in that manner, but all builds have a tell. It then comes down to the Protoss responding correctly and such. The game takes a different pace at that point, which is by all means still playable. It might just change the tempo to a harass based game, rather than a 1a vs 1a.
On November 28 2010 13:53 tetramaster wrote: Funny. If I see a 1-1-1 build, my reaction is to get a stargate
In fact, that's what I'll probably do more often than not. The only time I won't is if I notice a lot of marauders coming out early, in which case I opt to spend chronoboosts on immortals and warp in zealot/sentry. Yes, I've spent time and gas getting a robo bay, but that's just part of playing protoss.
Yes, I know you say you deny scouting with a raven, but if I see a raven, I'll be even more inclined to opt to get a stargate due to the likelyhood of a Polt timing attack. Also, your raven can't be everywhere at once, and if you're hellbent on spending gas and time to get several ravens to try and deny all scouting, I'll be more inclined to opt to get 2 stargates and chrono out 6 or so phoenixes and just fly into your base and kill the raven/any banshees. (I can't tell you how many times I've seen a poor protoss player just fly their observer directly into their opponent's base, and not to the sides/around back. Wasted observers make me cry)
Of course you're going to go marine heavy, since this build uses up a lot of gas. Then again, unless you're keeping your marines all clustered under your banshees, you're going to lose quite a few to phoenixes.
I personally will never get more than one raven at a time out on the field. Denying scouting is important in the early game and the ramp up to the banshees, but it can only go so far before I've been discovered. If you watch the replay also, I actually always keep my marines and banshees clumped together. I actually go as far as to stack my banshees on top of one marine to hide the amount and keep them protected from phoenix by my marine ball. I'm banking on my marines to take care of your Stargate heavy tech choice in this scenario.
On November 28 2010 13:45 Antisocialmunky wrote: If I see mass marine off 2 base, I'd know you be doing this. :-\
Interesting point. I could argue that if I was a Zerg who scouted mass marine off 2 base, I might suspect Marine/Raven. This build does reveal itself in that manner, but all builds have a tell. It then comes down to the Protoss responding correctly and such. The game takes a different pace at that point, which is by all means still playable. It might just change the tempo to a harass based game, rather than a 1a vs 1a.
Yeah, that's the problem exactly but Marine/Tank doesn't rely on a 'big reveal' like Cloaked Banshees kinda do. :-\
Still I think port builds are quite viable in TvP so keep it up. I'd just figure out some way of applying pressure earlier. My 2 base port builds do a select style FE with constant pressure.
I'd personally need to play a bunch of games to figure out if going 1-2 stargates would work. It stops polt timing attacks pretty well, but off of 2 bases, you can pump a lot of marines with stim and combat shield. (and after watching your rep, yep, keeping marines under banshees and stacking them is the proper thing to do, since you're going to be using them as part of your main army over harassment)
This is pure theorycrafting, this next bit, but I'd probably attempt a 2-base phoenix/collosi mix, getting 2-3 collosi and just melting away as much of your marine support as quickly as possible and finishing up any banshees that don't retreat with 2-3 phoenixes. Due to the speed of phoenixes and the range of collosi, the ball would be in the court of the T player to force the engagement at the natural with PDD or end up in a precarious position
On November 28 2010 14:03 Antisocialmunky wrote: Still I think port builds are quite viable in TvP so keep it up. I'd just figure out some way of applying pressure earlier. My 2 base port builds do a select style FE with constant pressure.
Yeah, I agree that some early pressure is definitely something I want to add in. I've tried this build a couple times with early 3 Rax Bio Stim timing pushes. Works to a decent extent, but takes a chance that you lose your army and are open to counterattacks. The build is still in its infancy, so any little bit helps at this point ^_^
On November 28 2010 14:03 Antisocialmunky wrote: Still I think port builds are quite viable in TvP so keep it up. I'd just figure out some way of applying pressure earlier. My 2 base port builds do a select style FE with constant pressure.
Yeah, I agree that some early pressure is definitely something I want to add in. I've tried this build a couple times with early 3 Rax Bio Stim timing pushes. Works to a decent extent, but takes a chance that you lose your army and are open to counterattacks. The build is still in its infancy, so any little bit helps at this point ^_^
Exactly, he found a good strategy to share, and I've tried it on the ladder going 3 wins 1 loss with it. I will edit replays soon, but maybe the build could use more tweaking and thats why we are here to help
i hate this strat as protoss you should try to transition with thors, because the weakness of your build is obviously phoenix. A friend make a similar build with a safer expand, 3sp@banshee then thors. it works.
On November 29 2010 22:09 Hane wrote: i hate this strat as protoss you should try to transition with thors, because the weakness of your build is obviously phoenix. A friend make a similar build with a safer expand, 3sp@banshee then thors. it works.
I've thought about using thors before, but decided against it because of the lack of mobility and how gas heavy it is. As stated before, the weakness to a standard polt timing attack is Phoenix, but here, my marine density is soooooo much larger than that attack and I can split my banshees in 5+ directions and harass effectively due to your lack of detection. Phoenix are necessary in stopping this push, but it's effectiveness is cut down tremendously by the marine number. I've never had this push stopped successfully before, even against high templar storm tech.
On November 28 2010 13:41 Synystyr wrote: Alright, well I'm back from work now and I'm ready to answer a few of the questions floating around. Firstly and most importantly, is the issue of early pressure and holding my Fast Expand. In the majority of my games, my opponent fast expanded as well. Scouting this gave me the go-ahead to tech in a greedy manner. If I were to scout early pressure from a 3 or 4 gate push, I'd have transitioned to defend it.
Out of my replay archive, I could only find one replay which had any decent early game pressure. The quality of this replay is questionable. This was the very first time I attempted this build, so it is by no means clean. However, the basic idea is there, and so is the early pressure.
This replay features a lot of interesting 3-pronged harass and pushes from my protoss opponent, while I struggle to defend against it. What I took away as important from this game was that although I lost my expansion, it gave me more than enough time to get my 5 Banshees out and clean up the push and counter attack for the win. This is by no means the ideal replay to defend my point, so take it with a grain of salt. It's all I have now.
On a similar note, I have added Transitions and Responding to Early Pressure tabs to the OP. This helps flesh the build out a bit better versus early pressure and defending a naked expansion. Most of the questions currently in this thread should hopefully be answered in there.
Moving on, I'd like to touch base on these points:
The delay of your build compared to the standard build also allows for a protoss to get HT with storm and amulet researched which again instantly murders your build. HT chargelot, mass blink, and colossus+phoenix all crush this build and because your build is simply to slow you should expect to see them.
False. The push is fast enough that a midgame protoss will ONLY have HT OR Colossi. While High Templar would do an excellent job at countering this push, they first need to have storm and Amulet researched to fend off the banshees in a decent manner. Teching to high templar over colossi is unusual, and may be a response to seeing four starports, but rest assured that I deny scouting before I build my ports. Getting the banshees out is not the fastest thing ever, but the build is defendable enough to allow the banshees to come out.
Doesn't look optimized from a gas perspective and protoss's scouting from a 1gate FE is usually very thorough. I'll crank out phoenix fast upon scouting 4 ports.
The beauty of this build, is how the gas is acquired and spent. It is not so important to have a large gas pool built up but rather have a large amount of gas income. Off two bases, you can support constant 4 Starport Banshee Production plus minor spending in researching upgrades or buildings marauders.
And I'll never let you scout the starports. You'll see a 1-1-1 build and the response to that is stalkers, rather than phoenix. Once the raven is out and the obs is dead, the starports will begin building banshees, and if by some chance you scout the starports later on, you most likely do not have stargates to begin with and can't get a useful number of phoenixs out before I push. All speaking from a theorycrafter's point of view though. Once I get more replays against play like this, I'll revisit the topic.
Keep the feedback coming and check out the new Transitions and Responses to Early Pressure tabs!
I just watched that replay - did you leave before your opponent after he GG'd? If so, LOL!
It looks quite deadly once you get to that critical mass of banshees - you said it was your first time doing the build so it wasn't clean and that might be why but you were floating a high amount of minerals for a lot of the game which makes me think the mechanics/timings of the build are not optimal; obviously it looks amazing when it comes off - but i was wandering if you got any replays of this build failing (NOT because of your error but because it just gets "countered")
Overall, it's good to see banshees starting to make their mark in a big way
I just watched that replay - did you leave before your opponent after he GG'd? If so, LOL!
It looks quite deadly once you get to that critical mass of banshees - you said it was your first time doing the build so it wasn't clean and that might be why but you were floating a high amount of minerals for a lot of the game which makes me think the mechanics/timings of the build are not optimal; obviously it looks amazing when it comes off - but i was wandering if you got any replays of this build failing (NOT because of your error but because it just gets "countered")
Overall, it's good to see banshees starting to make their mark in a big way
Haha yes I did leave before him That's because it was a custom and the game was won, no need to stick around ^_^. And I have improved IMMENSELY since the last time I've posted...I'll be uploading 5-10 more replays in the next day or so
And unfortunately, no. I don't have any replays of me losing because I got countered It hasn't happened yet! I did have one guy come VERY close though! He blink stalker rushed into high temps! Almost had me, but good micro and macro prevailed I'll upload those tomorrow morning. Thanks for the feedback!
Updated! I've included an entirely new replay pack of MUCH higher quality and added an Early Pressure option to the build! As always, please keep the feedback coming and watch the replays! One loss replay included also for those interested ^_^
Not to be a condescending, but actually even if you find a raven, stargate is the correct response to it. Otherwise pdd is a bitch to handle. :/
I suppose. PDD still absorbs phoenix shots, and if you scouted the raven, you'll also scout the massive amount of marines. I won't throw down my additional 3 starports until I've denied the observer. What the protoss will see is mass marine, and a raven. They'll think the raven is for PDD while the marines are gonna be my entire army. The answer to that would just be colossi...they won't know I have mass banshees incoming. It's worked out great so far anyways
I've been going heavy heavy banshee for a while now. Very similar to this build. The power isnt in the push, but the harass at both nexi simultaneously. I'm falling out of favor with it though, cause its just so easy for toss to mass stalkers. Trying to transition to thor to counter stalker, and then possibly bcs. That first push can be deadly, but midgame mass banshee (with bio) isn't that good unless you takeout obs with viking.
On December 03 2010 02:18 Mr_Kyo wrote: I've been going heavy heavy banshee for a while now. Very similar to this build. The power isnt in the push, but the harass at both nexi simultaneously. I'm falling out of favor with it though, cause its just so easy for toss to mass stalkers. Trying to transition to thor to counter stalker, and then possibly bcs. That first push can be deadly, but midgame mass banshee (with bio) isn't that good unless you takeout obs with viking.
Actually, with the heavy number of banshees I push in with, along with a couple PDDs and marine support, I have zero problems with killing stalkers. I use the raven to spot the obs, and that is my primary goal with my marines to kill. I used to get one viking after the raven for the purpose of sniping obs, but I found it slow and inefficient...I do like the idea of a thor transition, but I prefer BCs or heavy MMM if a transition is necessary. I do agree though, if the first push is held off, the following pushes aren't nearly as devastating. I'd change to a harass based game while transitioning at that point.
On December 03 2010 02:32 PhiliBiRD wrote: sounds like a great build but u really have to hide the ports cuz phoenix would rape this.
Yep. Phoenix are necessary to defend...I wouldn't say rape, as I have a lot of marines to protect the banshees. And yeah, once again, just take out the obs in your base once the raven comes out, then get your starports. Even if they send a second obs to check again, it'll be far too late to begin phoenix production to handle the push.
This is Awesome! I struggle a lot vs Protoss so I will try out this build and see if I can make it work. Still builds that rely on sniping the observers are very risky, what if you snipe on but they have 2? Or if they are are really good at protecting their observers?
On December 03 2010 04:27 MockHamill wrote: This is Awesome! I struggle a lot vs Protoss so I will try out this build and see if I can make it work. Still builds that rely on sniping the observers are very risky, what if you snipe on but they have 2? Or if they are are really good at protecting their observers?
Even with the obs out, banshees do a very very good job of cleaning up stalkers, regardless of being detected or not. If you want to play completely safely with sniping the obs, I recommend adding in a couple vikings, they can hit the obs from a long distance and not get sniped by stalkers.
If you meant sniping obs while they are scouting, even if the build is scouted, the toss has to respond perfectly to this and get the correct unit composition to deal with this. If they went robo, they most likely wont have any stargates out, and you can always push earlier than they expect to deal a lot of damage while they're in the midst of teching. Good luck and let me know how it goes!
Pretty good stray, I've lost to something similar to it before, but in one area you're way off.
You say HT are not a counter to this because expand to 4 port 8-10 banshees is too "quick" for HTs to be out... But not every toss goes blind cols everygame. Even if my scout was denied by a raven, I would know that the starport is out, and avoid cols even more than I normally do(I use cols 1/10 PvTs lately) and get my charge+storm. Having face a 8~ banshee plus marine army a couple times, storm deals with it very well with both marine and banshee, +some feedback to kill raven or PPD, so I'd say HTs are certainly a counter to this build.
It may well work against toss who get 4+ cols every vT, but yah.. Not all do that
On December 03 2010 05:12 Tin_Foil wrote: Pretty good stray, I've lost to something similar to it before, but in one area you're way off.
You say HT are not a counter to this because expand to 4 port 8-10 banshees is too "quick" for HTs to be out... But not every toss goes blind cols everygame. Even if my scout was denied by a raven, I would know that the starport is out, and avoid cols even more than I normally do(I use cols 1/10 PvTs lately) and get my charge+storm. Having face a 8~ banshee plus marine army a couple times, storm deals with it very well with both marine and banshee, +some feedback to kill raven or PPD, so I'd say HTs are certainly a counter to this build.
It may well work against toss who get 4+ cols every vT, but yah.. Not all do that
You're very true, and some of the points in my guide are a little outdated, I'll fix that. I have a replay for you...
This shows that templars are good, but with good banshee micro, you can mitigate storms very easily. It takes at least three storms to kill a banshee off (2 if I just sat there...but yeah right ) Banshees are very fast units and can micro out of storms pretty well. I've yet to lose to HTs. It is rather annoying to get my Raven feedbacked though >_>
Small error with the build order steps. When following it you get up to a 43 supply cap without being told to make another supply depot until 50 supply. Just need to throw another supply depot around the 40~ supply mark.
PDD doesn't have enough mana to be effective vs 5+ phoenix and a couple stalkers. 1 shot is 10 mana, you don't start with but what 50-100 mana? I feel 4 is overkill asking to be phoenix harassed. As they can shoot and move, they can just fight you where they want to fight you, right?
I wouldn't say banshees are 'fast' units. They have incredibly slow accel.
I'm always more an MM+banshee guy, so of course I think this is a bit too commited to banshees.
while you build your CC, build a barracks near the toss base and float it over.... you can see if he's doing a 3-4 gate rush, then bunker/marauder as required.
i think mass banshee is overkill though. banshee owns colossus, but mass banshee is weak against other compositions.
On December 03 2010 06:50 Requisition wrote: Small error with the build order steps. When following it you get up to a 43 supply cap without being told to make another supply depot until 50 supply. Just need to throw another supply depot around the 40~ supply mark.
Thanks for pointing that out! I'm planning on refining the Build order very soon. That one isn't quite optimal. It's very open to early pressure, but I do have a fix!
On December 03 2010 07:08 iAmJeffReY wrote: PDD doesn't have enough mana to be effective vs 5+ phoenix and a couple stalkers. 1 shot is 10 mana, you don't start with but what 50-100 mana? I feel 4 is overkill asking to be phoenix harassed. As they can shoot and move, they can just fight you where they want to fight you, right?
I wouldn't say banshees are 'fast' units. They have incredibly slow accel.
I'm always more an MM+banshee guy, so of course I think this is a bit too commited to banshees.
It's a personal preference with the mass banshees I suppose. There's no such thing as overcommitment if you win with it I find it incredibly devastating and awesome personally. I get a raven out early enough so that when I push, it's maxed on energy and I can lay two PDDs down. PDDs come out with 200/200 energy, which is 20 shots. X2 = 40 shots which is no small number! That's long enough for the banshees+marines to kill what's on the ground. I also keep the banshees stacked on one spot on top of my marines. That forces the phoenix to take marine fire if they want to engage the banshees. I don't allow the Protoss to scout my 4 starports early, so if they end up scouting later, it's too late to get banshees. Don't forget I have over 50 marines when I push. They're not something to mess with
On December 03 2010 07:10 hoovehand wrote: while you build your CC, build a barracks near the toss base and float it over.... you can see if he's doing a 3-4 gate rush, then bunker/marauder as required.
i think mass banshee is overkill though. banshee owns colossus, but mass banshee is weak against other compositions.
Good idea! I'll have to try that! Excellent idea for scouting
The only unit that truly beats banshees is phoenix, but I have the marine ball to protect my banshee stack. I find this an amazingly power composition. It's not about killing the colossi, it's about abusing the decision the Protoss made in getting colossi and capitalizing on the poor AA. Stalkers are only subpar against banshees.
Maybe I'm the only P that does this, but I certainly don't play passively after a 1-gate expansion unless I absolutely have to. I've learned that I can't punish a 2-rax expand with marauders and bunkers, but a 1-rax expand that techs straight to banshees is a sitting duck. I cut probes after my nexus to pump as many gateway units as possible and I know I'll be behind in economy against a T that expands as quickly as you are. Without bunkers (as you've suggested you can get away with), this build dies to even the most econ-greedy Protoss builds. Even with bunkers, a FE into 6-gate all-in would kill this without losing more than a handful of zealots.
Edit: On closer inspection, you'll need to rush for a bunker at your nat to hold a zealot+stalker poke. I've killed less greedy builds than this off of one gateway. You can't set up your natural off of 1 barracks on on maps with open naturals.
..and when they push you, and draw the PDDs at your base or in the middle, as they're supposed to, then what? When they do fly bys all game with phoenixs to keep your banshees in base, or make you make vikings, what then?
If you keep your banshees with your marines all game, then they aren't harassing, and aren't worth nearly what ya pay for em, in my mind.
And I agree, an aggressive 3 gate robo all in would crank out on you BADLY. I find 3 gate robo all ins MUCH stronger than typical 4 gate. My friend does them, and until I learned to draw him to his base, I couldn't stop it. He's 2k, and even beat my 2.6k friend with that crap. Chronos out zeals early, 5-6, 1-2 stalkers, 2 sentries and an immortal and pulls 75% probes and hits.
Whenever you see a good protoss target those PDDs with sentries and they die after blocking only 2 volleys, and he eats you up, you'll understand why lol. To beat banshees, it's all about how they handle the battle in my mind as a fellow terran. I'd suggest keeping those banshees out of your base AS LONG as possible. Hit and run, hit and run. Force OBs and phoenix, as his ground army will then lack.
I get 4-6 banshees max, by then they collsai up and it's a bit hard to target them vs vikings.
If it works for you though brother, keep it up. Just a tip, target sentries first when you PDD down.
On December 03 2010 08:08 kcdc wrote: Maybe I'm the only P that does this, but I certainly don't play passively after a 1-gate expansion unless I absolutely have to. I've learned that I can't punish a 2-rax expand with marauders and bunkers, but a 1-rax expand that techs straight to banshees is a sitting duck. I cut probes after my nexus to pump as many gateway units as possible and I know I'll be behind in economy against a T that expands as quickly as you are. Without bunkers (as you've suggested you can get away with), this build dies to even the most econ-greedy Protoss builds. Even with bunkers, a FE into 6-gate all-in would kill this without losing more than a handful of zealots.
Edit: On closer inspection, you'll need to rush for a bunker at your nat to hold a zealot+stalker poke. I've killed less greedy builds than this off of one gateway. You can't set up your natural off of 1 barracks on on maps with open naturals.
Yeah, I'm aware I'm very open to early pressure, which is why I'll be modifying the BO to include 3 mandatory bunkers. I've just got to get around to it xD. I've played games against some very aggressive players off of 4Gate, 3Gate Robo and 1GateFEs, so I know I can hold it, it's just a matter of good scouting and such. The current build is too greedy and I am remedying that.
On December 03 2010 08:22 iAmJeffReY wrote: ..and when they push you, and draw the PDDs at your base or in the middle, as they're supposed to, then what? When they do fly bys all game with phoenixs to keep your banshees in base, or make you make vikings, what then?
If you keep your banshees with your marines all game, then they aren't harassing, and aren't worth nearly what ya pay for em, in my mind.
And I agree, an aggressive 3 gate robo all in would crank out on you BADLY. I find 3 gate robo all ins MUCH stronger than typical 4 gate. My friend does them, and until I learned to draw him to his base, I couldn't stop it. He's 2k, and even beat my 2.6k friend with that crap. Chronos out zeals early, 5-6, 1-2 stalkers, 2 sentries and an immortal and pulls 75% probes and hits.
Whenever you see a good protoss target those PDDs with sentries and they die after blocking only 2 volleys, and he eats you up, you'll understand why lol. To beat banshees, it's all about how they handle the battle in my mind as a fellow terran. I'd suggest keeping those banshees out of your base AS LONG as possible. Hit and run, hit and run. Force OBs and phoenix, as his ground army will then lack.
I get 4-6 banshees max, by then they collsai up and it's a bit hard to target them vs vikings.
If it works for you though brother, keep it up. Just a tip, target sentries first when you PDD down.
I've found 3 gate robos especially easy to hold personally As long as you're focusfiring immortals from your bunkers, it's perfectly safe to hold off. I also always have a large control group of autorepair SCVs ready so that I can pull to the bunker wall quickly. I haven't quite worked in a harass game yet personally, but using them as a part of my main army more than pays for itself when they clean everything up ^_^.
The point is, I deny scouting before I throw 3 extra starports up, and by the time they can re-scout it, they can't get enough phoenixs out before my push hits them. It's too late there, and I can transition to BCs even if they hold it off. I've got a few replays of myself doing this, will upload on next update.
On December 03 2010 08:08 kcdc wrote: Maybe I'm the only P that does this, but I certainly don't play passively after a 1-gate expansion unless I absolutely have to. I've learned that I can't punish a 2-rax expand with marauders and bunkers, but a 1-rax expand that techs straight to banshees is a sitting duck. I cut probes after my nexus to pump as many gateway units as possible and I know I'll be behind in economy against a T that expands as quickly as you are. Without bunkers (as you've suggested you can get away with), this build dies to even the most econ-greedy Protoss builds. Even with bunkers, a FE into 6-gate all-in would kill this without losing more than a handful of zealots.
Edit: On closer inspection, you'll need to rush for a bunker at your nat to hold a zealot+stalker poke. I've killed less greedy builds than this off of one gateway. You can't set up your natural off of 1 barracks on on maps with open naturals.
Yeah, I'm aware I'm very open to early pressure, which is why I'll be modifying the BO to include 3 mandatory bunkers. I've just got to get around to it xD. I've played games against some very aggressive players off of 4Gate, 3Gate Robo and 1GateFEs, so I know I can hold it, it's just a matter of good scouting and such. The current build is too greedy and I am remedying that.
I don't think just adding bunkers is going to cut it. There's a reason why nobody simultaneously fast expands and techs 1-1-1. Abusing your choke and without sinking minerals into an expansion, you just barely have enough units off of 1-1-1 to defend gateway pressure. If you want to secure your nat, you need more early barracks units.
I still think the proper way of doing a TvP port build is 1-1-1 or 2 Rax FE. 1-1-1 to do it before many stalkers are out or build up to about 4 barracks to start pressuring and then tech to SPs to supplement your army(3 Tech Labs, 1 Reactor). If you can pick off enough stalkers, then your slower banshees will probably perform better than faster banshees that fly into a wall of stalkers.
On December 03 2010 08:49 Antisocialmunky wrote: I still think the proper way of doing a TvP port build is 1-1-1 or 2 Rax FE. 1-1-1 to do it before many stalkers are out or build up to about 4 barracks to start pressuring and then tech to SPs to supplement your army(3 Tech Labs, 1 Reactor). If you can pick off enough stalkers, then your slower banshees will probably perform better than faster banshees that fly into a wall of stalkers.
Everyone has a style I do have a couple early pressure options on this thread, so take a look at those if you want. I do like the idea of that Select-style FE. I'll have to try that...thanks for constantly contributing ^_^
For everyone else, I updated my OP! Now with a revamped Build order for better defense and a faster, cleaner push. I also updated out of date points to make everything more current. Thanks!
I'd definitly suggest a 2 rax stim push open, as it allows for an expo as you stim push + 2 ports then with instant raven + medic + reactor rax and tech lab rax.
I don't think just adding bunkers is going to cut it. There's a reason why nobody simultaneously fast expands and techs 1-1-1. Abusing your choke and without sinking minerals into an expansion, you just barely have enough units off of 1-1-1 to defend gateway pressure. If you want to secure your nat, you need more early barracks units.
Well it's worked alright for me so far I get my choke well defended pretty early on with those first 3 bunkers. It's stronger than it sounds. I've changed the BO so that it's not a 1-1-1 FE, but rather 1RaxFE + 3 Bunkers and 2 Rax. Much sturdier.
No problem. Like I said before, one of the main issues issues you should consider is that since this is a 'reveal' type build, you're going to want to mislead Toss a much as possible. Trick him with a 2 Rax FE and pop the obs he sends with your raven. I think the timings work out pretty well for the Raven.
This is more for when Toss gets used to this. This also gives you a viable abort into MMM Tank if you see Toss overreact to Banshee(cannon). If I have learned one thing from Marine/Raven, people figure out opennings pretty quick especially if people start winning Tourneys with this.
On December 03 2010 10:36 Antisocialmunky wrote: No problem. Like I said before, one of the main issues issues you should consider is that since this is a 'reveal' type build, you're going to want to mislead Toss a much as possible. Trick him with a 2 Rax FE and pop the obs he sends with your raven. I think the timings work out pretty well for the Raven.
This is more for when Toss gets used to this. This also gives you a viable abort into MMM Tank if you see Toss overreact to Banshee(cannon). If I have learned one thing from Marine/Raven, people figure out opennings pretty quick especially if people start winning Tourneys with this.
Haha yeah, the build is still being worked out, the general idea is to get four starports pumping banshees out to end the game for us. There are a variety of openers that can be used to get this build flowing, I've yet to figure out the rest! A 2 Rax FE might be much safer, and I like the idea of transitioning into tanks....the 2 base funding is already there and can really catch the Toss off guard. I love it keep it coming!
I don't think just adding bunkers is going to cut it. There's a reason why nobody simultaneously fast expands and techs 1-1-1. Abusing your choke and without sinking minerals into an expansion, you just barely have enough units off of 1-1-1 to defend gateway pressure. If you want to secure your nat, you need more early barracks units.
Well it's worked alright for me so far I get my choke well defended pretty early on with those first 3 bunkers. It's string than it sounds. I've changed the BO so that it's not a 1-1-1 FE, but rather 1RaxFE + 3 Bunkers and 2 Rax. Much sturdier.
Do what works for you. 1-rax expand with lots of bunkers followed 2 additional rax might be safe. The most difficult part would be getting that first bunker up against a zealot+stalker poke with rallied stalkers. I suspect you'll lose some games against well executed early aggression, but that's okay. 2-rax expand is a lot safer tho, and the banshee transition would work just as well.
I saw this yesterday and decided to try it out against my Protoss practice partner. I opened each time with a 2 rax expand (with some bunker pressure with my first few units when he let me get away with it) against his 1 gate FEs. I was able to really consistently find a nice timing where I would add two Starports basically as soon as I could afford it after placing the expansion, letting me get a little harassment in and delay any sort of aggression. Add two more Starports after that and roll over to his base with a very significant amount of banshee with MM support. It seems pretty hard for the Protoss to hold it. I actually dont mind if they overreact to the banshee because transitioning into MMM is quite easy and most players will overreact to the harassment and not particularly consider the banshee as an army unit.
I have tried it out twice so far. First time I got cannon rushed followed by DTs so GG. Next time he used a warp prism to take out my main base before I could mass enough units.
3 Bunkers is a good idea but since Protoss so easily can bypass the bunkers with warp prisms I am not sure if this build is viable. You do not have enough units to defend against an attack that skips your bunkers.
On December 04 2010 02:41 w_Ender_w wrote: I saw this yesterday and decided to try it out against my Protoss practice partner. I opened each time with a 2 rax expand (with some bunker pressure with my first few units when he let me get away with it) against his 1 gate FEs. I was able to really consistently find a nice timing where I would add two Starports basically as soon as I could afford it after placing the expansion, letting me get a little harassment in and delay any sort of aggression. Add two more Starports after that and roll over to his base with a very significant amount of banshee with MM support. It seems pretty hard for the Protoss to hold it. I actually dont mind if they overreact to the banshee because transitioning into MMM is quite easy and most players will overreact to the harassment and not particularly consider the banshee as an army unit.
I love all these different options people are coming up with this is very very good option with an easy abort over to MMM! I like it. I'll have to tally all these up at some point and add it on to the main post. Thank you very much!! Keep it up
On December 04 2010 03:54 MockHamill wrote: I have tried it out twice so far. First time I got cannon rushed followed by DTs so GG. Next time he used a warp prism to take out my main base before I could mass enough units.
3 Bunkers is a good idea but since Protoss so easily can bypass the bunkers with warp prisms I am not sure if this build is viable. You do not have enough units to defend against an attack that skips your bunkers.
The bunker wall is supposed to deflect any attacks from the front. Which means of course the Protoss may try to bypass the wall with other means. This includes proxy pylons in your base, warp prisms or blink stalkers. I don't think I mentioned it, but this is one of those things you have to be very aware of all the time. Excess minerals is something I find in this build. I usually burn it on marines + supply depots, but another option is to turret the sides of your bases to prevent such tactics. It's a matter of scouting in this situation, not the strength of the build.
On December 04 2010 03:59 Synystyr wrote: I love all these different options people are coming up with this is very very good option with an easy abort over to MMM! I like it. I'll have to tally all these up at some point and add it on to the main post. Thank you very much!! Keep it up
Glad you like it. I saved the replays from the games we played last night, if you're particularly interested. Its certainly a fun build, and a nice change of pace from the usual pure bio play you're often forced to rely on in the match up.
On December 04 2010 03:54 MockHamill wrote: I have tried it out twice so far. First time I got cannon rushed followed by DTs so GG. Next time he used a warp prism to take out my main base before I could mass enough units.
3 Bunkers is a good idea but since Protoss so easily can bypass the bunkers with warp prisms I am not sure if this build is viable. You do not have enough units to defend against an attack that skips your bunkers.
Yeah, but these are things you need to take into account no matter what build you do. The nice thing about an FE build is that by the time you need to make a decision on what tech you go you should be able to scout these plays.
Edit: Oh and Antisocialmunky, I love your TvZ Marine/Raven build. If people like this kind of build for some alternate playstyles, they ought to check his thread out as well.
On December 04 2010 03:59 Synystyr wrote: I love all these different options people are coming up with this is very very good option with an easy abort over to MMM! I like it. I'll have to tally all these up at some point and add it on to the main post. Thank you very much!! Keep it up
Glad you like it. I saved the replays from the games we played last night, if you're particularly interested. Its certainly a fun build, and a nice change of pace from the usual pure bio play you're often forced to rely on in the match up.
On December 04 2010 03:54 MockHamill wrote: I have tried it out twice so far. First time I got cannon rushed followed by DTs so GG. Next time he used a warp prism to take out my main base before I could mass enough units.
3 Bunkers is a good idea but since Protoss so easily can bypass the bunkers with warp prisms I am not sure if this build is viable. You do not have enough units to defend against an attack that skips your bunkers.
Yeah, but these are things you need to take into account no matter what build you do. The nice thing about an FE build is that by the time you need to make a decision on what tech you go you should be able to scout these plays.
Edit: Oh and Antisocialmunky, I love your TvZ Marine/Raven build. If people like this kind of build for some alternate playstyles, they ought to check his thread out as well.
I support this bolded statement wholeheartedly and yeah, post the replays and I'll definetely take a look!
On December 04 2010 03:59 Synystyr wrote: I love all these different options people are coming up with this is very very good option with an easy abort over to MMM! I like it. I'll have to tally all these up at some point and add it on to the main post. Thank you very much!! Keep it up
Glad you like it. I saved the replays from the games we played last night, if you're particularly interested. Its certainly a fun build, and a nice change of pace from the usual pure bio play you're often forced to rely on in the match up.
On December 04 2010 03:54 MockHamill wrote: I have tried it out twice so far. First time I got cannon rushed followed by DTs so GG. Next time he used a warp prism to take out my main base before I could mass enough units.
3 Bunkers is a good idea but since Protoss so easily can bypass the bunkers with warp prisms I am not sure if this build is viable. You do not have enough units to defend against an attack that skips your bunkers.
Yeah, but these are things you need to take into account no matter what build you do. The nice thing about an FE build is that by the time you need to make a decision on what tech you go you should be able to scout these plays.
Edit: Oh and Antisocialmunky, I love your TvZ Marine/Raven build. If people like this kind of build for some alternate playstyles, they ought to check his thread out as well.
I support this bolded statement wholeheartedly and yeah, post the replays and I'll definetely take a look!
Lol, I was actually trying to test a Ghost/Banshee strategy for a while but it is way to hard to play. X_X.
I wonder if it would be worth popping a relatively fast BC on a close position map and sit on 3 ports instead of 2. My main objection to 4 port is it requires a ton of gas invested only in production structures off 2 base. Basically something like 3 port->Raven->Fusion Core->Continually BC + 2 Banshee.
That said you could also pop ravens out of a third port for some sort of mass PDD.
Alrighty, here are a few replays. Some things to note: I believe the build was designed to defeat Colossus play, but in these replays my buddy was trying to see if he could 1 gate FE against it.
One thing I noticed when he was 1 gate FEing is that if I open 2 rax FE and get a Reaper first after tech lab, my bunker aggression is juuuuust too slow to be effective. When I skip Reaper and go straight into Marauder, the bunker aggression can be very potent against a 1 gate FE. So it's really up to you as to what you prefer.
[url blocked] First game is a bit sloppy, reaper scout + some attempted bunker pushing into the Banshee play. Protoss tries to counter with Templar.
[url blocked] The second game has me skipping the reaper and just being aggressive with concussive (lolterran). I actually really mishandled it and way overextended my early game aggression but some bunkers and very timely Banshee's saved me and let me roll over the Protoss shortly thereafter.
[url blocked] This is a fun one. Banshee really lets you exploit terrain, and that's what happens in this Jungle Basin. He attempts to fight the Banshee with Phoenix play. It might be a viable counter, but on a 1 gate FE it seems to come way too late.
So there are a few. The build was still a little clunky for me (mostly because I was kind of winging it instead of following the OP) but it seems like it could actually be pretty strong. Certainly pretty unexpected.
On December 04 2010 05:06 Antisocialmunky wrote: Lol, I was actually trying to test a Ghost/Banshee strategy for a while but it is way to hard to play. X_X.
I wonder if it would be worth popping a relatively fast BC on a close position map and sit on 3 ports instead of 2. My main objection to 4 port is it requires a ton of gas invested only in production structures off 2 base. Basically something like 3 port->Raven->Fusion Core->Continually BC + 2 Banshee.
That said you could also pop ravens out of a third port for some sort of mass PDD.
I had one game that went pretty late where I went into BC production on all four ports, but that's not really too relevant to the build as a opener. It could work though, BCs are pretty underused. I'll have to play around with it.
As far as the gas costs on 2 base, when I was sitting on 2 rax/4 port from 2 base and started harassing early with the banshee I was able to spend money and gas pretty efficiently, and get a third up as I pushed once all 4 ports really kicked in. You don't spend much gas anywhere else if you stay MM to support the Banshee it seems.
Ravens are a great idea, just a few for PDD really punish any non-phoenix counter to the Banshee. Additionally, vikings are a great idea. They have no mobile detection beyond Observers, so scanning to snipe Obs out with Vikings or Marines can really help you out.
On December 04 2010 05:17 w_Ender_w wrote: Alrighty, here are a few replays. Some things to note: I believe the build was designed to defeat Colossus play, but in these replays my buddy was trying to see if he could 1 gate FE against it.
One thing I noticed when he was 1 gate FEing is that if I open 2 rax FE and get a Reaper first after tech lab, my bunker aggression is juuuuust too slow to be effective. When I skip Reaper and go straight into Marauder, the bunker aggression can be very potent against a 1 gate FE. So it's really up to you as to what you prefer.
[url blocked] First game is a bit sloppy, reaper scout + some attempted bunker pushing into the Banshee play. Protoss tries to counter with Templar.
[url blocked] The second game has me skipping the reaper and just being aggressive with concussive (lolterran). I actually really mishandled it and way overextended my early game aggression but some bunkers and very timely Banshee's saved me and let me roll over the Protoss shortly thereafter.
[url blocked] This is a fun one. Banshee really lets you exploit terrain, and that's what happens in this Jungle Basin. He attempts to fight the Banshee with Phoenix play. It might be a viable counter, but on a 1 gate FE it seems to come way too late.
So there are a few. The build was still a little clunky for me (mostly because I was kind of winging it instead of following the OP) but it seems like it could actually be pretty strong. Certainly pretty unexpected.
Alriiiiiiiiight! I watched them all, and the first thing that popped in my head was: "We have completely different style of play xD". So good though What this tells me, is that this build has extreme FLEXIBILITY!. Early pressure options, multiple points of harassment, different expand styles...it all fits! I really liked it, and I can see you using this as a really powerful build once you clean it up and fit it to your liking
I really liked how you handled phoenix play, slowpushing up your opponents ramp and setting up a turret contain into vikings. This cleaned up the phoenix easily and paved the road for your MM+Banshee to win the game Awesome!
And just to sate my curiosity, what's your Diamond ranking, pointwise?
I don't ladder too often, so I think it's only around 1500ish points(actually it might even be lower then that)? I've been laddering a bit recently though, and it pretty much only matches me against ~2200-2400 players though, so I guess my hidden rating must be higher. Give me a week of actually laddering often and I'll get it up there :D
My protoss friend who will no doubt hate me for posting games against him is a ~2300 player currently as well.
On December 04 2010 06:02 w_Ender_w wrote: I don't ladder too often, so I think it's only around 1500ish points(actually it might even be lower then that)? I've been laddering a bit recently though, and it pretty much only matches me against ~2200-2400 players though, so I guess my hidden rating must be higher. Give me a week of actually laddering often and I'll get it up there :D
My protoss friend who will no doubt hate me for posting games against him is a ~2300 player currently as well.
You definitely play better than 1500 Diamond, I can tell that much excellent, thanks again!
On December 04 2010 06:02 w_Ender_w wrote: I don't ladder too often, so I think it's only around 1500ish points(actually it might even be lower then that)? I've been laddering a bit recently though, and it pretty much only matches me against ~2200-2400 players though, so I guess my hidden rating must be higher. Give me a week of actually laddering often and I'll get it up there :D
My protoss friend who will no doubt hate me for posting games against him is a ~2300 player currently as well.
You definitely play better than 1500 Diamond, I can tell that much excellent, thanks again!
Thanks! I admit, I haven't watched your replays yet, I just read through the thread and decided to try it out. That may be why our styles differ so much. Later today I'll watch yours and see if I can mix some stuff in to the way I've been doing it.
On December 04 2010 06:02 w_Ender_w wrote: I don't ladder too often, so I think it's only around 1500ish points(actually it might even be lower then that)? I've been laddering a bit recently though, and it pretty much only matches me against ~2200-2400 players though, so I guess my hidden rating must be higher. Give me a week of actually laddering often and I'll get it up there :D
My protoss friend who will no doubt hate me for posting games against him is a ~2300 player currently as well.
You definitely play better than 1500 Diamond, I can tell that much excellent, thanks again!
Thanks! I admit, I haven't watched your replays yet, I just read through the thread and decided to try it out. That may be why our styles differ so much. Later today I'll watch yours and see if I can mix some stuff in to the way I've been doing it.
Please do It's two different styles, but you'll probably be able to pick a few things out that you like and adjust.
I think you should change the name of the post, otherwise good players will write it off immediately. I almost didn't open this because the title suggests you're preparing for something you cant predict. Call it a TvP 4 banshee FE or something, but most people are looking for a stable opener and a unit comp that will be favorable against collo, not a blind counter.
I always open gate/stargate/gate/robo now against terran so Im pretty safe against this build. I suppose if the toss insisted on going stalkers they will get rolled miserably. Someday tosses other than nony will understand the power of the phoenix opener vs terran!
On December 04 2010 05:25 Antisocialmunky wrote: Well the viking/cloaked banshee/raven thing was common back in Beta wasn't it?
NTT used to use the build alot... then he retired... then he unretired and used it alot more... then he retired again.. then he re-unretired and got blasted at dreamhack as zerg
On December 04 2010 07:36 Jayrod wrote: I think you should change the name of the post, otherwise good players will write it off immediately. I almost didn't open this because the title suggests you're preparing for something you cant predict. Call it a TvP 4 banshee FE or something, but most people are looking for a stable opener and a unit comp that will be favorable against collo, not a blind counter.
I always open gate/stargate/gate/robo now against terran so Im pretty safe against this build. I suppose if the toss insisted on going stalkers they will get rolled miserably. Someday tosses other than nony will understand the power of the phoenix opener vs terran!
Funny story, that was the pretty much the exact title of this thread before. I changed it because actually, the previous title wasn't much of an eye catcher. This one is better. You're going to at least glance at this thread Once you start reading, I've got you where I want you :D
Stargate play can be a little scary, but marines do great against phoenix and void rays. I can turret up, and contain you with my bio while getting vikings or MMM out. It's all about good scouting and good tech switches
I tried it yesterday and was impressive. He reacted to the first starport with quite a lot of stalkers. I thought it was going to fail but wow, pdds are insane....
I dont know if this strategy will be that good, but man, i have learned quite few things about banshees. Thanks :D
On December 04 2010 19:20 maskseller wrote: I tried it yesterday and was impressive. He reacted to the first starport with quite a lot of stalkers. I thought it was going to fail but wow, pdds are insane....
I dont know if this strategy will be that good, but man, i have learned quite few things about banshees. Thanks :D
Btw, i think banshees have 0 armor.
No problem!! I'm glad things worked out for you and that you were able to win Stalkers aren't much of a problem as long as you have PDD and enough banshees with cloak They're only decent at best vs banshees.
And you're right, banshees do have 0 armor. I don't know where I got the idea they had 1 >_> Thanks!
I love this build, not only because I haven't lost with it yet despite some games where I lose a good chunk of my early worker count, but also because of the ability of this build to get an expansion and 3 bunkers up to defend vs almost any early non-super-all-in strategies.
If people get smart about banshees, this build can use the same 20 cc 26 3xbunker to get a crazy economy to pump out any other unit composition, whether it be Thor/Banshee, 5 Rax extremely early, MM+Tank, etc.
I (2100 diamond) play a very similar build in TvP with good success except I don't do the FE and perhaps play more defensively.
I open marine/banshee/raven and play defensively with them (i.e. not going for a timing push). I harass with the banshees and expand as much as possible.
In the lategame, I transition to 4-5 starports building viking/banshee/BCs/marine/raven. Often, I'll move to a good defensive position and try and get them to engage me.
Synystyr, I've been watching some of your replays. When you build the three extra starports, you have to wait for them to techlab up before you can start Banshee production. What are your thoughts on using the Factory to just keep spamming Techlabs and lifting so that you can hotswap all three Starports simultaneously?
(this seems like it might be particularly strong against heavy pressure because you shave some time off your Banshees.)
On December 05 2010 03:56 Blyadischa wrote: I love this build, not only because I haven't lost with it yet despite some games where I lose a good chunk of my early worker count, but also because of the ability of this build to get an expansion and 3 bunkers up to defend vs almost any early non-super-all-in strategies.
If people get smart about banshees, this build can use the same 20 cc 26 3xbunker to get a crazy economy to pump out any other unit composition, whether it be Thor/Banshee, 5 Rax extremely early, MM+Tank, etc.
Exactly, an early CC with bunker defence can give you so many different tech options, so long as you scout well! Nice nice nice
On December 05 2010 04:00 Azzur wrote: I (2100 diamond) play a very similar build in TvP with good success except I don't do the FE and perhaps play more defensively.
I open marine/banshee/raven and play defensively with them (i.e. not going for a timing push). I harass with the banshees and expand as much as possible.
In the lategame, I transition to 4-5 starports building viking/banshee/BCs/marine/raven. Often, I'll move to a good defensive position and try and get them to engage me.
A different style, but the ideas are similar. I like to be aggressive with a large 2 base timing push personally, but if this works for you, then by all means keep it up!
On December 05 2010 11:01 audeamus wrote: Synystyr, I've been watching some of your replays. When you build the three extra starports, you have to wait for them to techlab up before you can start Banshee production. What are your thoughts on using the Factory to just keep spamming Techlabs and lifting so that you can hotswap all three Starports simultaneously?
(this seems like it might be particularly strong against heavy pressure because you shave some time off your Banshees.)
You sir, deserve a cookie. This would speed the build up by 25ish seconds, and could be clutch in high pressure situations! Well done and thanks for that excellent input!
On December 05 2010 14:31 heyyouyesyou wrote: I like this build alot but its something id save for jungle basin and scrap station.
It's a build I prefer on maps that don't have open naturals to defend. For that reason, I took DQ, Xelnaga caverns and Blistering Sands off my map list. This leaves me Metalopolis as the only map with an open natural expansion, so I prioritize early pressure on that map as my "defence" as I tech to banshees.
On December 05 2010 14:31 heyyouyesyou wrote: I like this build alot but its something id save for jungle basin and scrap station.
It's a build I prefer on maps that don't have open naturals to defend. For that reason, I took DQ, Xelnaga caverns and Blistering Sands off my map list. This leaves me Metalopolis as the only map with an open natural expansion, so I prioritize early pressure on that map as my "defence" as I tech to banshees.
What units do you use to pressure the toss the scv and marines? I dont know how id be able to pressure with a gas less 1 rax expand.
On December 05 2010 14:31 heyyouyesyou wrote: I like this build alot but its something id save for jungle basin and scrap station.
It's a build I prefer on maps that don't have open naturals to defend. For that reason, I took DQ, Xelnaga caverns and Blistering Sands off my map list. This leaves me Metalopolis as the only map with an open natural expansion, so I prioritize early pressure on that map as my "defence" as I tech to banshees.
What units do you use to pressure the toss the scv and marines? I dont know how id be able to pressure with a gas less 1 rax expand.
Check out the "Applying Early Pressure" tab on the opening post. Those are a couple good options for you. Gas would be added at the normal time of the build, and still be viable for early pressure.
I don't want to shit all over your build, as I actually like it quite a bit, but here are a couple things that can really mess a Terran FE up.
1) Not including steps of war - fast blink stalkers - I almost never see this, but it has happened to me before, I go for a FE, they super tech to blink stalkers and get an obs and they blink straight into your main ignoring your bunkered up front, most likley gg.
2) 3gate robo warp prism play - they warp in some zealots into your mains minerals and if you weaken your bunkers to go fight them, they roll your front with an immortal/gateway army. Really hard to stop if your doing a FE and depending on those bunkers.
Been playing with it more. I like it a lot, even if it may not be the most stable in the world the way I've been doing it, its just so damn fun to play. Mixing in a Raven or two and some Vikings to snipe Obs is huge.
On December 05 2010 15:07 statikg wrote: I don't want to shit all over your build, as I actually like it quite a bit, but here are a couple things that can really mess a Terran FE up.
1) Not including steps of war - fast blink stalkers - I almost never see this, but it has happened to me before, I go for a FE, they super tech to blink stalkers and get an obs and they blink straight into your main ignoring your bunkered up front, most likley gg.
2) 3gate robo warp prism play - they warp in some zealots into your mains minerals and if you weaken your bunkers to go fight them, they roll your front with an immortal/gateway army. Really hard to stop if your doing a FE and depending on those bunkers.
I've definitely played against this before, and I know to expect it. You can't really go fast blink stalkers and get an obs out before I have at least a banshee with cloak out and marines with Combat shields. Straight up blink stalkers can be a pain. You need to pull workers off and surround while keeping your marines back and killing as many stalkers as you can. The trick here is to delay the stalkers as long as possible to get a couple banshees out. Your starport will be up when they push, so get a banshee out and you'll be okay. It's all about delaying.
Warp Prism play is all about scouting. A good barracks float into their base will tell you all you need. If you see 3 gate robo, you'll want to have marines patrolling the edges of your base to catch that. The push comes with 1 immortal if its fast, and that can be countered with good focus firing and SCVs repairing the bunkers. 2 immortals is too slow, I'll have a banshee out.
Either way, each push is stopped as soon as you get a banshee out and clean up. You'll lose a few workers and might be behind a little, but a quick counter attack with a round of banshees can turn that into your favor.
On December 05 2010 15:28 w_Ender_w wrote: Been playing with it more. I like it a lot, even if it may not be the most stable in the world the way I've been doing it, its just so damn fun to play. Mixing in a Raven or two and some Vikings to snipe Obs is huge.
Agreed :D Nothing is more fun than watching a helpless Toss deal with 10 cloaked banshees right after their obs gets sniped So good.
Finally someone recognizes how insanely cost effective banshees are early game vs protoss. Stalkers are simply too expensive to deal with this alone. You need to add phoenix and charge lots pretty fast.
There are variations on this build on the EU servers that are very popular but the attack usually comes earlier as they often one base. The best answers to those builds is to do robo after the first stalker (and WG tech), rush an obs out, time your robo bay so that it isnt finished yet when your obs reaches his base. If you see 2 star or indications of a banshee build you just cancel the robo bay instantly and pop a starport and a twillight council. This is something Incontrol did in MLG Dallas to great effect and it relies on your robo being early so that you can get that tech up right away. Also if you find that the terran is just going expand and raven you use those phoenixes to kill mules and try to climb into the game again. Usually against a one base all in terran you lose your nat but then go on to win the fight and retake your nat with a superior army composition to his allbeit an economic disadvantage.
For your version of the build however you either get a later attack, less ground, or less air which makes the protoss job easier if he knows this build. The problem is that if you do this with marines, the toss will have a timing when he has only charge lots and phoenix against your maybe 30 stimmed shielded marines and you can just melt everything he has. But cannons at the natural works great for marines heavy builds in conjunction with this unit combo. You're very reliant on delaying the terran push with your phoenix by either harassing mineral lines or actually taking pot shots at the banshees when they are going towards your base so that you force the marines to turn around and fight. If you go sentry heavy 3 gate with an immortal and reinforce it with stalkers there is a great timing to break any fast expanding terran that relies on bunkers including this build of yours but it's not a sure win and it's risky because if you fail you lose as toss.
Alternatively what you can do is go more sentry heavy with voidrays. This gives you alot of minerals which you spend on additional cannons at your nat and obv for the zealots. Voidrays + cannons + force fields are ridiculously good against a unit compo that doesnt have tanks or large numbers of vikings. But then obviously you need to transition out of it for later stages. Also getting a forge early gives you the chance to have +1 armor early for your ground (+3 against marines with guardian shield) and cannons in your mineral lines vs the potential banshee harass. It's very defensive as toss and relies on a strong counter push with either templar or mass gate / void. I wouldn't really recommend going this build against your version of this build as it can get the toss very behind in econ and the cannons are obv not useful offensively so you are reliant on hitting a good counter timing.
The best point about your build as you say is that it forces templar tech in the midgame instead of colossus tech which is far more robust overall. Templars can be taken advantage off with good emps or a spread army with tank support. Especially when they come out as late as they do vs your build.
This is my perspective as someone who plays PvT vs 2000-2700 rating terrans on the EU server.
On December 05 2010 15:52 StarBrift wrote: Finally someone recognizes how insanely cost effective banshees are early game vs protoss. Stalkers are simply too expensive to deal with this alone. You need to add phoenix and charge lots pretty fast.
There are variations on this build on the EU servers that are very popular but the attack usually comes earlier as they often one base. The best answers to those builds is to do robo after the first stalker (and WG tech), rush an obs out, time your robo bay so that it isnt finished yet when your obs reaches his base. If you see 2 star or indications of a banshee build you just cancel the robo bay instantly and pop a starport and a twillight council. This is something Incontrol did in MLG Dallas to great effect and it relies on your robo being early so that you can get that tech up right away. Also if you find that the terran is just going expand and raven you use those phoenixes to kill mules and try to climb into the game again. Usually against a one base all in terran you lose your nat but then go on to win the fight and retake your nat with a superior army composition to his allbeit an economic disadvantage.
For your version of the build however you either get a later attack, less ground, or less air which makes the protoss job easier if he knows this build. The problem is that if you do this with marines, the toss will have a timing when he has only charge lots and phoenix against your maybe 30 stimmed shielded marines and you can just melt everything he has. But cannons at the natural works great for marines heavy builds in conjunction with this unit combo. You're very reliant on delaying the terran push with your phoenix by either harassing mineral lines or actually taking pot shots at the banshees when they are going towards your base so that you force the marines to turn around and fight. If you go sentry heavy 3 gate with an immortal and reinforce it with stalkers there is a great timing to break any fast expanding terran that relies on bunkers including this build of yours but it's not a sure win and it's risky because if you fail you lose as toss.
Alternatively what you can do is go more sentry heavy with voidrays. This gives you alot of minerals which you spend on additional cannons at your nat and obv for the zealots. Voidrays + cannons + force fields are ridiculously good against a unit compo that doesnt have tanks or large numbers of vikings. But then obviously you need to transition out of it for later stages. Also getting a forge early gives you the chance to have +1 armor early for your ground (+3 against marines with guardian shield) and cannons in your mineral lines vs the potential banshee harass. It's very defensive as toss and relies on a strong counter push with either templar or mass gate / void. I wouldn't really recommend going this build against your version of this build as it can get the toss very behind in econ and the cannons are obv not useful offensively so you are reliant on hitting a good counter timing.
The best point about your build as you say is that it forces templar tech in the midgame instead of colossus tech which is far more robust overall. Templars can be taken advantage off with good emps or a spread army with tank support. Especially when they come out as late as they do vs your build.
This is my perspective as someone who plays PvT vs 2000-2700 rating terrans on the EU server.
Very insightful looks into how to play against this build Hopefully some Protosses will give these ideas a shot and we'll see this build evolve further against different game play! I do have a little bit of trouble with templars but I never really considered ghosts because of the high gas cost...late game though it's a little more affordable. Thanks for the feedback!
On December 05 2010 15:52 StarBrift wrote: Finally someone recognizes how insanely cost effective banshees are early game vs protoss. Stalkers are simply too expensive to deal with this alone. You need to add phoenix and charge lots pretty fast.
There are variations on this build on the EU servers that are very popular but the attack usually comes earlier as they often one base. The best answers to those builds is to do robo after the first stalker (and WG tech), rush an obs out, time your robo bay so that it isnt finished yet when your obs reaches his base. If you see 2 star or indications of a banshee build you just cancel the robo bay instantly and pop a starport and a twillight council. This is something Incontrol did in MLG Dallas to great effect and it relies on your robo being early so that you can get that tech up right away. Also if you find that the terran is just going expand and raven you use those phoenixes to kill mules and try to climb into the game again. Usually against a one base all in terran you lose your nat but then go on to win the fight and retake your nat with a superior army composition to his allbeit an economic disadvantage.
For your version of the build however you either get a later attack, less ground, or less air which makes the protoss job easier if he knows this build. The problem is that if you do this with marines, the toss will have a timing when he has only charge lots and phoenix against your maybe 30 stimmed shielded marines and you can just melt everything he has. But cannons at the natural works great for marines heavy builds in conjunction with this unit combo. You're very reliant on delaying the terran push with your phoenix by either harassing mineral lines or actually taking pot shots at the banshees when they are going towards your base so that you force the marines to turn around and fight. If you go sentry heavy 3 gate with an immortal and reinforce it with stalkers there is a great timing to break any fast expanding terran that relies on bunkers including this build of yours but it's not a sure win and it's risky because if you fail you lose as toss.
Alternatively what you can do is go more sentry heavy with voidrays. This gives you alot of minerals which you spend on additional cannons at your nat and obv for the zealots. Voidrays + cannons + force fields are ridiculously good against a unit compo that doesnt have tanks or large numbers of vikings. But then obviously you need to transition out of it for later stages. Also getting a forge early gives you the chance to have +1 armor early for your ground (+3 against marines with guardian shield) and cannons in your mineral lines vs the potential banshee harass. It's very defensive as toss and relies on a strong counter push with either templar or mass gate / void. I wouldn't really recommend going this build against your version of this build as it can get the toss very behind in econ and the cannons are obv not useful offensively so you are reliant on hitting a good counter timing.
The best point about your build as you say is that it forces templar tech in the midgame instead of colossus tech which is far more robust overall. Templars can be taken advantage off with good emps or a spread army with tank support. Especially when they come out as late as they do vs your build.
This is my perspective as someone who plays PvT vs 2000-2700 rating terrans on the EU server.
We need more posts like this for this forum. I thank your Viking lineage.
Also, Chargelot/Phoenix is one of the major things I struggle against with banshee openings in general. And with the impending patch, I'm thinking this build will catch on even more in general vs Terran (phoenix harass -> shutdown Terran cuteness -> chargelots murdering everything -> stormlot/phoenix if toss didn't somehow win).
On December 05 2010 15:52 StarBrift wrote: Finally someone recognizes how insanely cost effective banshees are early game vs protoss. Stalkers are simply too expensive to deal with this alone. You need to add phoenix and charge lots pretty fast.
There are variations on this build on the EU servers that are very popular but the attack usually comes earlier as they often one base. The best answers to those builds is to do robo after the first stalker (and WG tech), rush an obs out, time your robo bay so that it isnt finished yet when your obs reaches his base. If you see 2 star or indications of a banshee build you just cancel the robo bay instantly and pop a starport and a twillight council. This is something Incontrol did in MLG Dallas to great effect and it relies on your robo being early so that you can get that tech up right away. Also if you find that the terran is just going expand and raven you use those phoenixes to kill mules and try to climb into the game again. Usually against a one base all in terran you lose your nat but then go on to win the fight and retake your nat with a superior army composition to his allbeit an economic disadvantage.
For your version of the build however you either get a later attack, less ground, or less air which makes the protoss job easier if he knows this build. The problem is that if you do this with marines, the toss will have a timing when he has only charge lots and phoenix against your maybe 30 stimmed shielded marines and you can just melt everything he has. But cannons at the natural works great for marines heavy builds in conjunction with this unit combo. You're very reliant on delaying the terran push with your phoenix by either harassing mineral lines or actually taking pot shots at the banshees when they are going towards your base so that you force the marines to turn around and fight. If you go sentry heavy 3 gate with an immortal and reinforce it with stalkers there is a great timing to break any fast expanding terran that relies on bunkers including this build of yours but it's not a sure win and it's risky because if you fail you lose as toss.
Alternatively what you can do is go more sentry heavy with voidrays. This gives you alot of minerals which you spend on additional cannons at your nat and obv for the zealots. Voidrays + cannons + force fields are ridiculously good against a unit compo that doesnt have tanks or large numbers of vikings. But then obviously you need to transition out of it for later stages. Also getting a forge early gives you the chance to have +1 armor early for your ground (+3 against marines with guardian shield) and cannons in your mineral lines vs the potential banshee harass. It's very defensive as toss and relies on a strong counter push with either templar or mass gate / void. I wouldn't really recommend going this build against your version of this build as it can get the toss very behind in econ and the cannons are obv not useful offensively so you are reliant on hitting a good counter timing.
The best point about your build as you say is that it forces templar tech in the midgame instead of colossus tech which is far more robust overall. Templars can be taken advantage off with good emps or a spread army with tank support. Especially when they come out as late as they do vs your build.
This is my perspective as someone who plays PvT vs 2000-2700 rating terrans on the EU server.
We need more posts like this for this forum. I thank your Viking lineage.
Also, Chargelot/Phoenix is one of the major things I struggle against with banshee openings in general. And with the impending patch, I'm thinking this build will catch on even more in general vs Terran (phoenix harass -> shutdown Terran cuteness -> chargelots murdering everything -> stormlot/phoenix if toss didn't somehow win).
Agreed, such an excellent post :D yeah chargelot/phoenix/HT sucks to deal with. With the new patch changes....>_> Phoenix spam is gonna be a pain in the ass xD
But i execute it a little differently. Since i like early pressure i do a 2 rax opener and push with about 6-7 rines and 4 scvs. the push hits around 4:30 and i also have an expo built around the time i push.
Then i transition into your build composition.
Playing this build i say is only weak to HT. But you usually kill them before that point. Unless they blind tech. In which case they lose to Cloak.
On December 06 2010 07:06 GinDo wrote: <3 this build.
But i execute it a little differently. Since i like early pressure i do a 2 rax opener and push with about 6-7 rines and 4 scvs. the push hits around 4:30 and i also have an expo built around the time i push.
Then i transition into your build composition.
Playing this build i say is only weak to HT. But you usually kill them before that point. Unless they blind tech. In which case they lose to Cloak.
Whats nice is when you temp stop banshees for 2 Ravens and PDD during the battle. OMG RAGEQUIT!!! lol
I'm glad you like it! :D And yeah, a quick early 2 Rax push is very easy to expand behind. It's just a tad risky to me incase you lose your marines and have nothing to defend a counter attack with. HTs with good storms can be a total pain in the ass, but you can just spread your banshees in 5 different directions and kill him that way Fun fun!
On December 06 2010 11:49 noobcakes wrote: The one unit I hate the most, the banshee. Now becomes part of an actual good anti colossus build. Lord have Mercy
Hehehe Be afraid....very afraid. Imagine it...3 bases running smoothly, then you have 5 cloaked banshees in each one dropping probes like no one's business. You just can't have enough observers everywhere to deal with it. By far, my favorite unit :D
Remember this: So technically, it's a build that yes, can snipe collosus very well. However, be very very aware that at any point you get 3 or 5 banshees, I would respond with a stargate and pump out phoenixes. In fact, I think that any smart protoss would just throw down a Stargate, because after all you spent resources on an air building. Technically, the protoss player won't be behind if he throws down an air building too.
I think Tester did this too where he went Collosus and Phoenixes. The phoenixes help draw fire from other stuff and vikings. And of course, they do kill banshees ...
While I think it's good in all, I *REALLY* think a better option is to make a LOT of Marauders. Collosus does a lot of splash, but it is SO good because collosus in few members CANNOT own maurauders fast enough before they can take out the collosus. That's usually why I choose to go storm tech. It's the same thing against roaches. It can't deal enough fast damage before that ball owns my gateway throwaways...
now this build may or may not work, but i just want to throw out there that most protoss players know that banshees (esp with ravens) rock stalkers, and will get phoenixes. I know I do.
I actually encounter this build while going collosus and FE when i spotted terran doing it. i stop all collosus production and when for high templar, i just wan my high templar out asap to feedback. i stop the first push. atk with 5-6 templar with storm. feedback all banshee b4 they cloak and storm one time. no terran unit survive at all. i apologise to the terran cause i lost around 20 supplies while he lost everything.
One of the pro-tips against fighting templar with feedback (this will prolly be your final push because you WILL lose the next one if he has templar) is toggle cloak until all your energy is gone.
I have trouble believing that early CC can work vs aggressive players. 4gates, 3gate robo, 3 gate startgate are all dificult to defend on even one base with bunkers. Otherwise, its a strategy I basically have been doing.
On December 06 2010 15:53 ScythedBlade wrote: Remember this: So technically, it's a build that yes, can snipe collosus very well. However, be very very aware that at any point you get 3 or 5 banshees, I would respond with a stargate and pump out phoenixes. In fact, I think that any smart protoss would just throw down a Stargate, because after all you spent resources on an air building. Technically, the protoss player won't be behind if he throws down an air building too.
I think Tester did this too where he went Collosus and Phoenixes. The phoenixes help draw fire from other stuff and vikings. And of course, they do kill banshees ...
While I think it's good in all, I *REALLY* think a better option is to make a LOT of Marauders. Collosus does a lot of splash, but it is SO good because collosus in few members CANNOT own maurauders fast enough before they can take out the collosus. That's usually why I choose to go storm tech. It's the same thing against roaches. It can't deal enough fast damage before that ball owns my gateway throwaways...
By the time I have 3-5 Banshees, that'll mean my 4 starports are up and running and you'll be hit by a timing push of 10ish banshees in another minute or two. Thats not nearly enough time to get your stargates up AND pump out enough phoenixs. And don't forget, I'm not going PURE banshees! There are ~50 marines out there for the sole purpose of killing whatever can kill the banshees. Just stack your banshees in the middle of the marine ball, and you're safe
Not that I don't LOVE marauders, I just find it too risky against Toss who have great FFs, heavy zealots and lots of Colossus...they just melt
On December 06 2010 17:35 Keilah wrote: now this build may or may not work, but i just want to throw out there that most protoss players know that banshees (esp with ravens) rock stalkers, and will get phoenixes. I know I do.
The thing is, I won't reveal my 4 starports to the Protoss player. Deny scouting, avoid being countered.
On December 06 2010 18:37 Zaurus wrote: I actually encounter this build while going collosus and FE when i spotted terran doing it. i stop all collosus production and when for high templar, i just wan my high templar out asap to feedback. i stop the first push. atk with 5-6 templar with storm. feedback all banshee b4 they cloak and storm one time. no terran unit survive at all. i apologise to the terran cause i lost around 20 supplies while he lost everything.
Well a smart terran would cloak before engaging xD If you go that heavy on templars so early, you won't have detection to handle the cloaked banshees. At most, 1 obs, which I'll snipe ASAP and then you're in trouble
On December 06 2010 22:45 Antisocialmunky wrote: One of the pro-tips against fighting templar with feedback (this will prolly be your final push because you WILL lose the next one if he has templar) is toggle cloak until all your energy is gone.
Very useful tip for the late game when you know he has detection and wanna burn some energy off those HTs!
On December 07 2010 01:29 Mr_Kyo wrote: I have trouble believing that early CC can work vs aggressive players. 4gates, 3gate robo, 3 gate startgate are all dificult to defend on even one base with bunkers. Otherwise, its a strategy I basically have been doing.
The 4 Gate push is the fastest rush out of all those, coming at the 6:00 mark if it's as fast as possible. My bunkers are up at 5:30 with 7 marines. With SCVs repairing the bunkers, there's no way the 4Gate breaks the bunkers. I've held it off before, and I've got the replays to prove it. Check em out. The other rushes are so much less potent as they come later and I have more and more marines to deal with it.
Wow, I just watched the 4gate and that was the worst 4gate i've ever seen. Not only did it come late, he didnt have a proxy. He could have used the backdoor and destroy you (jungle basin). Moreover, Jungle Basin is kind of an easy map to defend a 4gate on... try xel-naga caverns.
On December 07 2010 02:41 Mr_Kyo wrote: Wow, I just watched the 4gate and that was the worst 4gate i've ever seen. Not only did it come late, he didnt have a proxy. He could have used the backdoor and destroy you (jungle basin). Moreover, Jungle Basin is kind of an easy map to defend a 4gate on... try xel-naga caverns.
I don't play on Xelnaga Caverns for that reason. Open naturals are too difficult to defend against. I would open with mass bio instead of bunkers on that map. How about Steppes?
This version of the build is a little different to what I use now...I go bunkers before extra 2 Racks now, but this was still fine. Bunkers before racks is safer and faster for defense though. I'm confident in holding off 4Gates on maps like these.
On December 07 2010 03:18 specs wrote: What if you put some tanks with siege tech in? maybe 2-4 tanks to kind of direct the fight in an area you want it to be in.
It can be a little tricky, because gas is at a premium...It's just enough to support constant production of Banshees out of 4 Starports plus upgrades...You'd have to cut a few units to get them. And why? Banshees clean up everything on the ground nicely enough, the threat is in the air. It's not necessary IMO and delays the push.
Well, I am currently in page 4 of the build. Wouldn't this work better as a 2 Rax FE? Then transitioning into Starports.
The important thing is getting the 4 Gas, as for the scouting you can put down an engineering bay and put down a few turrets(may upgrade your marines). This sounds useful, but I do think that the 1 Rax FE is a bit risky.
But I really like the sound of this. Especially the BC transition
On December 07 2010 03:46 windsupernova wrote: Well, I am currently in page 4 of the build. Wouldn't this work better as a 2 Rax FE? Then transitioning into Starports.
The important thing is getting the 4 Gas, as for the scouting you can put down an engineering bay and put down a few turrets(may upgrade your marines). This sounds useful, but I do think that the 1 Rax FE is a bit risky.
But I really like the sound of this. Especially the BC transition
A 2 Rax FE could be safer, It's personally preference really. I've been just fine with a 1 Rax FE + Bunkers so far. If things change and I need more marines, then a 2 Rax FE is perfectly reasonable. Missile Turrets are a great mineral dump if you need one, as are a couple engineering bays. Just positioning them around your perimeter to deny warp prisms and observers and you're free to tech without getting scouted!
On December 07 2010 04:38 tehemperorer wrote: This build is bad against stargate builds, so if P is halfway decent and hides tech you will be SOL if phoenix/ray come
He opens Phoenixs into Colossi. You'd think this would work really well...Phoenix to kill the Banshees while the Colossi kills the Marines. However, if you turret up in your base and keep your banshees stacked on top of your marines, the Phoenix can't harass at all and then you can freely tech switch to Vikings, as I did. Vikings kill both those units, leaving my banshees free to clean up afterwards. Marines are the bane of Stargate units, and I am in no short supply of them. Void Rays do not excel in killing either banshees or marines, and are easily killed by vikings or marines, so they're not a threat.
That was a very weird toss build. That was like a 1 gate stargate expand...?
Anyway, I'm curious if you have a gave vs mass blink stalker. I haven't seen then all.
Also, have you thought about getting Thors for Phoenix? They give you something beefy on the ground and shoot down phoenix and obs ala Painuser. It also uses the otherwise useless factory and is slightly infrastructure cheaper. Harass with banshees, reconoiter with your main army and push out with 6ish Banshee, 2 Thors and a buttload of Marines?
Also not so all-in because BCs take too long to critical mass and you get access to upgrades and can fall back on factory tech(tanks).
On December 06 2010 15:53 ScythedBlade wrote: Remember this: So technically, it's a build that yes, can snipe collosus very well. However, be very very aware that at any point you get 3 or 5 banshees, I would respond with a stargate and pump out phoenixes. In fact, I think that any smart protoss would just throw down a Stargate, because after all you spent resources on an air building. Technically, the protoss player won't be behind if he throws down an air building too.
I think Tester did this too where he went Collosus and Phoenixes. The phoenixes help draw fire from other stuff and vikings. And of course, they do kill banshees ...
While I think it's good in all, I *REALLY* think a better option is to make a LOT of Marauders. Collosus does a lot of splash, but it is SO good because collosus in few members CANNOT own maurauders fast enough before they can take out the collosus. That's usually why I choose to go storm tech. It's the same thing against roaches. It can't deal enough fast damage before that ball owns my gateway throwaways...
By the time I have 3-5 Banshees, that'll mean my 4 starports are up and running and you'll be hit by a timing push of 10ish banshees in another minute or two. Thats not nearly enough time to get your stargates up AND pump out enough phoenixs. And don't forget, I'm not going PURE banshees! There are ~50 marines out there for the sole purpose of killing whatever can kill the banshees. Just stack your banshees in the middle of the marine ball, and you're safe
Not that I don't LOVE marauders, I just find it too risky against Toss who have great FFs, heavy zealots and lots of Colossus...they just melt
On December 06 2010 17:35 Keilah wrote: now this build may or may not work, but i just want to throw out there that most protoss players know that banshees (esp with ravens) rock stalkers, and will get phoenixes. I know I do.
The thing is, I won't reveal my 4 starports to the Protoss player. Deny scouting, avoid being countered.
On December 06 2010 18:37 Zaurus wrote: I actually encounter this build while going collosus and FE when i spotted terran doing it. i stop all collosus production and when for high templar, i just wan my high templar out asap to feedback. i stop the first push. atk with 5-6 templar with storm. feedback all banshee b4 they cloak and storm one time. no terran unit survive at all. i apologise to the terran cause i lost around 20 supplies while he lost everything.
Well a smart terran would cloak before engaging xD If you go that heavy on templars so early, you won't have detection to handle the cloaked banshees. At most, 1 obs, which I'll snipe ASAP and then you're in trouble
On December 06 2010 22:45 Antisocialmunky wrote: One of the pro-tips against fighting templar with feedback (this will prolly be your final push because you WILL lose the next one if he has templar) is toggle cloak until all your energy is gone.
Very useful tip for the late game when you know he has detection and wanna burn some energy off those HTs!
On December 07 2010 01:29 Mr_Kyo wrote: I have trouble believing that early CC can work vs aggressive players. 4gates, 3gate robo, 3 gate startgate are all dificult to defend on even one base with bunkers. Otherwise, its a strategy I basically have been doing.
The 4 Gate push is the fastest rush out of all those, coming at the 6:00 mark if it's as fast as possible. My bunkers are up at 5:30 with 7 marines. With SCVs repairing the bunkers, there's no way the 4Gate breaks the bunkers. I've held it off before, and I've got the replays to prove it. Check em out. The other rushes are so much less potent as they come later and I have more and more marines to deal with it.
Typically, there's two ways to prevent this. Sadly, by the time you have 50 marines and 3 - 5 banshees, or even 10 banshees, it's way too late. I would've had too much of an army to neutralize it. I haven't saved a replay for this (there are Terrans that do go mass banshees, and as annoying as it is,
Basically, if you see a ton of marines, you're going to think: Either banshees, FE, or tanks. However, the PvT FE build deals with this very nicely, because that obs WILL see your tech tree, and if I see more than 2 Banshees, it's enough to throw down a Stargate. (If I see a Raven, I'll still throw it down, because those ravens are pesky)
Also, if you do have 10 banshees, that means you have around 1000 Gas. THAT is a lot of gas, just so you know. Expect protoss to have a one or two collosi by then, and enough phoenixes. Generally, phoenixes in 1:2 ratio of banshees will rape enough. The other part you must realize (aka, why I think I've been winning against similar builds) is that your marines are either a) shooting at ground units or b) shooting at phoenixes. Anytime you're not, the collosus + zealots will rape your whole ground army, or I'll just pull away phoenixes while it does and re-engage to kill the banshees)
In the end, it'll fall down to if you can micro well enough. But a smart protoss will be able to counter this easily. (Also, as I read more and more, this build becomes *REALLY* late. In fact, late enough to get Templar tech, which as far as I've known, really kills terran =/)
Still a good build nevertheless. Most of the ladder players won't be able to really counter it. =/
On December 07 2010 10:50 Antisocialmunky wrote: That was a very weird toss build. That was like a 1 gate stargate expand...?
Anyway, I'm curious if you have a gave vs mass blink stalker. I haven't seen then all.
Also, have you thought about getting Thors for Phoenix? They give you something beefy on the ground and shoot down phoenix and obs ala Painuser. It also uses the otherwise useless factory and is slightly infrastructure cheaper. Harass with banshees, reconoiter with your main army and push out with 6ish Banshee, 2 Thors and a buttload of Marines?
Also not so all-in because BCs take too long to critical mass and you get access to upgrades and can fall back on factory tech(tanks).
I don't have any mass blink stalkers...I have a couple games that include blink stalkers, but none of significance And this Thor idea keeps popping into my head...I mean why not right? I can add a tech lab to the factory and burn through my excess resources a little quicker with a couple thors. Strong, great AA and scares protoss into making units that don't counter my build Good call!
On December 07 2010 11:04 ScythedBlade wrote:
Typically, there's two ways to prevent this. Sadly, by the time you have 50 marines and 3 - 5 banshees, or even 10 banshees, it's way too late. I would've had too much of an army to neutralize it. I haven't saved a replay for this (there are Terrans that do go mass banshees, and as annoying as it is,
Basically, if you see a ton of marines, you're going to think: Either banshees, FE, or tanks. However, the PvT FE build deals with this very nicely, because that obs WILL see your tech tree, and if I see more than 2 Banshees, it's enough to throw down a Stargate. (If I see a Raven, I'll still throw it down, because those ravens are pesky)
Also, if you do have 10 banshees, that means you have around 1000 Gas. THAT is a lot of gas, just so you know. Expect protoss to have a one or two collosi by then, and enough phoenixes. Generally, phoenixes in 1:2 ratio of banshees will rape enough. The other part you must realize (aka, why I think I've been winning against similar builds) is that your marines are either a) shooting at ground units or b) shooting at phoenixes. Anytime you're not, the collosus + zealots will rape your whole ground army, or I'll just pull away phoenixes while it does and re-engage to kill the banshees)
In the end, it'll fall down to if you can micro well enough. But a smart protoss will be able to counter this easily. (Also, as I read more and more, this build becomes *REALLY* late. In fact, late enough to get Templar tech, which as far as I've known, really kills terran =/)
Still a good build nevertheless. Most of the ladder players won't be able to really counter it. =/
You bring up interesting micro points. I believe that if you choose to engage without your phoenixs at ANY point, the banshees will clear out everything on the ground. It really just comes down to better micro in this situation, but like hell I'll let that happen And of course, 4 Starports can let me tech switch to vikings EXTREMELY quickly. Vikings kill colossi and phoenixs. The vikings will steal threat away from the banshees and get focused by the phoenix, making your job to micro much more difficult.
However, you still bank on the fact that you'll scout the Banshees quick enough to amass a counter, where I'm sure I'll deny your scouting to prevent you from getting to that point. High templars don't scare me...I can keep my energy down on my banshees and storm dodge quite easily with them. You're very limited by your gas to how many HTs you can make. I'm confident in my build. I believe I can tech switch to counter whatever you may pull easily and force you into situations that favor me.
And thanks for the feedback! I appreciate your optimism
All I'm saying is, everytime someone posts anything that could potentially beat this, you have posted a crappy replay, against a crappy protoss player, or cast things off as 'thats just micro points'
Yet you seem to be supreme theorycraft being, being able to keep your 50 marines from being hit 3 times, thats it, by collsai as that's all it takes to kill them. So what happens when they FF you back, climb a cliff with the collsai, and pick you off with phoenix if you try and chase? Oh I'm sure you haven't experienced that.
You seem to always be 'ready' for anything, but with marine banshee, no medics, you aren't. You're eggs are all in 1 basket with the banshees. And you say 'oh have cloak' Yet when do you have the gas for it? When do you scout/scan their base, and see all their hidden buildings to get a gauge on what they really have?
Favorite part was the 3-5 banshees "I'll have 10 in 1 minute or two" ya... 2500/1000, really fast income, yet you still have '50' marines. It just seems you're sitting way too hard on theorycraft, and I think you're "95%" is such a gross exaggeration. As a 400 games 2200 player, I'm positive you aren't losing to only zergs and terrans.
However, you still bank on the fact that you'll scout the Banshees quick enough to amass a counter, where I'm sure I'll deny your scouting to prevent you from getting to that point. High templars don't scare me...I can keep my energy down on my banshees and storm dodge quite easily with them. You're very limited by your gas to how many HTs you can make. I'm confident in my build. I believe I can tech switch to counter whatever you may pull easily and force you into situations that favor me.
2 gate robo, or some build of the likes, has an OB out WAY early into your base. You somehow can deny scouting....how?
And the high templars don't scare me is the icing on the cake of disbelief of you playing any good protoss player. Once that HT comes out with storm ready, you can't storm dodge 50 marines and 10 banshees out of a HALF DECENTLY placed storm. Banshees are your ONLY option of offense in this strat. What keeps the protoss from expanding with phoenix support? They're MUCH faster, and you're going to keep your marines with the banshees at all times? I doubt that. Otherwise, they're not being nearly cost effective without harassing protoss base.
Anyway, I'm curious if you have a gave vs mass blink stalker. I haven't seen then all.
This is when you'll hate life, my friend. When that decent protoss player scouts your base, sees the bunker + marines, knows tech, and goes 3 gate blink stalker and hops right into your base and and eats your marines like they're nothing.
I'm not meaning to be a prick, I just think it's way to dependent on stupid protoss moves and you're apparently uncanny ability to deny scouting/always have proper units and counters. I feel if you had that ability even nearly as much as you claim, you'd be higher than 2200.
rant And stop being like ASMonkey and linking your thread any chance you get lol, that's annoying. /rant
Anyway, I'm curious if you have a gave vs mass blink stalker. I haven't seen then all.
This is when you'll hate life, my friend. When that decent protoss player scouts your base, sees the bunker + marines, knows tech, and goes 3 gate blink stalker and hops right into your base and and eats your marines like they're nothing.
This is the reason I want reps, you can shut down most port heavy builds with blink stalkers or chargelot phoenix depending on the map because it relies on the bunker.
And last time I checked, you were sitting on the mid-high diamond border that's ~2300K Jeffy. :-\
Anyway, I'm curious if you have a gave vs mass blink stalker. I haven't seen then all.
This is when you'll hate life, my friend. When that decent protoss player scouts your base, sees the bunker + marines, knows tech, and goes 3 gate blink stalker and hops right into your base and and eats your marines like they're nothing.
This is the reason I want reps, you can shut down most port heavy builds with blink stalkers or chargelot phoenix depending on the map because it relies on the bunker.
And last time I checked, you were sitting on the mid-high diamond border that's ~2300K Jeffy. :-\
I only agreed, as I play marine heavy vs toss and blink stalker shits all over me. I'm 2399 in the same, if not less games, than it took him to 2200 is all. I also play only on fridays, and never practice or ladder except fridays. I also never, have yet, to claim I was good. Infact, I insist I'm lower level player.
I just see flaws in his 'strategy' as it's such pure theorycraft and seems to be vs very, very passive protoss.
Yeah, you and me both which is why I favor the 2 Rax Select FE for marine/marauder. Just out of curiosity, what sort of mass marine can you play against toss?
Don't get me wrong though: I agree one most of the issues you brought up with this build such as it being completely passive and rely partially on avoiding scouting, I just think its in poor taste to take a pop shot at someone's rank on the idiotic ladder system.
All I'm saying is, everytime someone posts anything that could potentially beat this, you have posted a crappy replay, against a crappy protoss player, or cast things off as 'thats just micro points'
I wish I really did have more replays to show the potential of this build. I'm working with what I have, and every Protoss I play can't be absolutely amazing. Trust me, if I could have a practice partner of pro caliber, I'd run this over and over against them until I worked out all the tweaks. I still stand by my build, and I'll defend it. I don't by any means think it's unbeatable, but I do believe that I can always turn a situation into my favor with what I have.
Yet you seem to be supreme theorycraft being, being able to keep your 50 marines from being hit 3 times, thats it, by collsai as that's all it takes to kill them. So what happens when they FF you back, climb a cliff with the collsai, and pick you off with phoenix if you try and chase? Oh I'm sure you haven't experienced that.
I lose my marines to 1-2 Colossi every time I push with them. I'll never defend that I can keep them alive my micro is terriawful. I haven't faced that situation, but if I did, I'd salvage my remaining units and tech switch to Vikings, which handle both units just fine. It wouldn't be ideal, but I'm certainly not dead.
You seem to always be 'ready' for anything, but with marine banshee, no medics, you aren't. You're eggs are all in 1 basket with the banshees. And you say 'oh have cloak' Yet when do you have the gas for it? When do you scout/scan their base, and see all their hidden buildings to get a gauge on what they really have?
Gas is not an issue. Try the build yourself. You have an income of 440 gas/min. Banshees cost 100 gas each with 60 seconds of build time. With a stable income, I can produce banshees nonstop, and with the little bit of gas I banked before I started making banshees, I can afford upgrades and a raven.
I scout with a proxy barracks with my scouting worker. I float it off into their base and look for any signs of gateway pressure. If it's there, I'll spend more on defence, whereas if I see tech such as a Robo or Stargate, I adapt accordingly. I scan when I remember, but I'm pretty bad at that. I still get caught off guard, but I've always been able to adapt to the situation.
Favorite part was the 3-5 banshees "I'll have 10 in 1 minute or two" ya... 2500/1000, really fast income, yet you still have '50' marines. It just seems you're sitting way too hard on theorycraft, and I think you're "95%" is such a gross exaggeration. As a 400 games 2200 player, I'm positive you aren't losing to only zergs and terrans.
A misunderstanding, I mean 95% win rate AFTER I started using this build, which was only a few weeks ago. My bad. I may exaggerate a little with the banshees, but 4 a minute means 8 in 2 minutes. Not totally unreasonable. The 50 marines is true also. 2Rax with Reactor and 1 regular allows 5 marine production at a time, and in the time it takes me to get my banshees out, I can easily have the number. Mules give me lots of minerals and they are my mineral dump. I lose 80% of my TvTs. I'm god damn awful at it...I split 50/50 with Zerg. I'm on tilt playing them atm.
However, you still bank on the fact that you'll scout the Banshees quick enough to amass a counter, where I'm sure I'll deny your scouting to prevent you from getting to that point. High templars don't scare me...I can keep my energy down on my banshees and storm dodge quite easily with them. You're very limited by your gas to how many HTs you can make. I'm confident in my build. I believe I can tech switch to counter whatever you may pull easily and force you into situations that favor me.
2 gate robo, or some build of the likes, has an OB out WAY early into your base. You somehow can deny scouting....how?
My definition of "scout denying" for this build is not allowing my 4 starports to be scouted. I use my Raven+marines to kill the obs, then start the 4 ports.
And the high templars don't scare me is the icing on the cake of disbelief of you playing any good protoss player. Once that HT comes out with storm ready, you can't storm dodge 50 marines and 10 banshees out of a HALF DECENTLY placed storm. Banshees are your ONLY option of offense in this strat. What keeps the protoss from expanding with phoenix support? They're MUCH faster, and you're going to keep your marines with the banshees at all times? I doubt that. Otherwise, they're not being nearly cost effective without harassing protoss base.
Trust me, I used to HATE HTs. Storm on top of stormed bio --> (-_-'). Like I said earlier, I lose lots of marines! They're replaceable though. The important part is keeping my banshees alive, which I dump my micro into. Yes, you are right that Banshees are my only option of offense, but honestly, it is all I need. I don't harass, because I don't have the APM or the micro to do it properly. This is an error on my part, but who says a better player can't come along and pick that slack up? We're discussing a build and its various uses, not my level of play. I find the way I use my banshees to be perfectly cost effective. If I lose the first push due to phoenixs, I'll tech switch to vikings, once again. There are many simple transitions out of this build.
Anyway, I'm curious if you have a gave vs mass blink stalker. I haven't seen then all.
This is when you'll hate life, my friend. When that decent protoss player scouts your base, sees the bunker + marines, knows tech, and goes 3 gate blink stalker and hops right into your base and and eats your marines like they're nothing.
I've had it happened to me with my practice partner. The very first time I ever used this build against him, he blind blink stalker rushed me and I fell to pieces. Personally, I'm paranoid of blink stalkers now and I keep a close eye out for that if I scout a stalker heavy army. If I were to face that now, I would abort to 3 Tech Lab Rax, instead of TRR. My next two barracks will just be building when the tech path for Blink is clear. I've defended a couple rushes with SCVs pulls and better marine micro than the Protoss, but it's a threat.
I still believe that a Blink Stalker rush counters my style of FE, not the build or the unit composition itself. If I were less stubborn and 2 Rax FEed instead, blink stalkers would be a non-issue.
I'm not meaning to be a prick, I just think it's way to dependent on stupid protoss moves and you're apparently uncanny ability to deny scouting/always have proper units and counters. I feel if you had that ability even nearly as much as you claim, you'd be higher than 2200.
Only against Protoss do I have this magic ability I'm too nerve wracked to ladder right now. My TvT is horrendous, and I'm on tilt playing Zerg. Protoss is my only confident matchup. I don't think a standard 3 Gate Robo or 4 Gate from a Toss is stupid....I can exploit it with my build better than others. The people I play aren't bad. Many of those games are ladder against 2k+ Protoss. I defend my build, once again.
rant And stop being like ASMonkey and linking your thread any chance you get lol, that's annoying. /rant
Shameless advertising. I like my build, and I want to share it :D. If you don't like it, ah well. Many won't, but it gets the point across
On December 08 2010 08:44 Antisocialmunky wrote: Yeah, you and me both which is why I favor the 2 Rax Select FE for marine/marauder. Just out of curiosity, what sort of mass marine can you play against toss?
Don't get me wrong though: I agree one most of the issues you brought up with this build such as it being completely passive and rely partially on avoiding scouting, I just think its in poor taste to take a pop shot at someone's rank on the idiotic ladder system.
I 1 rax reactor FE to 4 rax 2 reactor 2 tech lab, two pushes, first a stim push, followed by 4 refinery ghost push. Unfortunately, if that doesn't end it, I'm too far behind tech wise so I gotta faggot it up play wise.
Or, I 2 rax stim open, 13 rax 16 rax reactor/techlab respectively and go 90% marines, 10% marauders. I push with a proxy manner fac floater up ramp to snipe + block them, followed by 2 port banshees. My stim push is something like 15 or so marines, and 2 marauders.
I only switch to heavy marauder after collsai pop. Even late game when collsai -> HT switch comes, I go marine ghost medic only. Just abuse the rebound rate of my units, and mobility of medivacs with range of EMP.
Just like vs terran, I mass marines as the rebound is much faster. Marines have this window when stim > gateway units especially if they 2 gate robo, as the collsai has a couple of minutes until it's out with range, and immortals get shat all over by marines.
I play VERY heavy marine style. And I wouldn't say the system is idiotic, as it seems to place people where they belong. People hit these walls and refuse to blame themselves, it's the strat the enemy used, or blah blah blah. I have no problem admitting I'm not good. I made it this far with just plain macro.
Just a side note -- I post replays of games I win and lose on gamereplays. I have no shame hiding my stats, or 'strategies' if you can call them that. I just know when things have weaknesses, and I'm only merely trying to point them out for him. He seems to be set on this being an A+ strategy. Sure, It can work, and probably very effectively if the protoss plays into his hands.
On December 08 2010 09:18 Antisocialmunky wrote: Well I suppose that works quite well.
Man, I miss the days of 10 Rax Gas where I could rally a marauder to the zerg main and kill their first units and apply never ending pressure...
It does well for me, at least. But I always insist on pressure when I play, and vs toss i find stim pushes the most abusive vs anything but 3 gate robo or 4 gate. Coupled with bunkers, you can safely expand.
If you want something to try, try a nice stim push. 3/4 of my TvP are variations of a build I see demuslim do, as hes the only pro T i watch vs toss lol
I think the build is too vulnerable to dts (mostly because it can be difficult to scout and requires mins going to engi instead of marines for 4 gate pressure) and blink stalkers. Securing the expansion, especially vs blink stalkers when you have just marines is a nightmare. yeah yeah you can do certain things to defend both, but that doesn't change my statement. total nightmare.
However I love 4 port. The banshees + option to switch to bc's has been working really well. I've been using a variation of getting the expand after my factory (which i use for siege tanks to defend the expo and help with blink stalkers) and it's been working ok.
even though tanks are "mostly" worthless tvp, i've been having good success pushing after my initial wave of banshees with a couple tanks (3 ish?) mostly because it makes pressuring their expand from a decent position real easy.
Quick question. Have you encountered Feedback play with this? It seems to me as if with the recent shifts in meta-game and a lot of jinro-inspired Raven into Banshee TvP play, tosses have begun to incorporate feedback very early as a badass defense against harass. I've never really played your build here, but I wonder whether you have come across FB-Protoss counters to this, and can share you experience.
Feedback is dangerous but storm is worse, you need to either cloak and snipe every obs or you need to toggle cloak your banshees until they are low on energy (enough to keep them cloaked through a battle but not be heavily damaged by storm).
On December 08 2010 15:38 cskalias.pbe wrote: I think the build is too vulnerable to dts (mostly because it can be difficult to scout and requires mins going to engi instead of marines for 4 gate pressure) and blink stalkers. Securing the expansion, especially vs blink stalkers when you have just marines is a nightmare. yeah yeah you can do certain things to defend both, but that doesn't change my statement. total nightmare.
However I love 4 port. The banshees + option to switch to bc's has been working really well. I've been using a variation of getting the expand after my factory (which i use for siege tanks to defend the expo and help with blink stalkers) and it's been working ok.
even though tanks are "mostly" worthless tvp, i've been having good success pushing after my initial wave of banshees with a couple tanks (3 ish?) mostly because it makes pressuring their expand from a decent position real easy.
DTs?? Really? I always figured the raven would come out sooner than the DT, coupled with two OCs for scans, that DTs weren't an issue. Can you post a replay of DT pressure? I know blink stalkers are an issue, I still have yet to find a proper solution to the problem.
Otherwise, I'm glad you like the build! Tanks aren't my style so I never use them, but if it works for you, excellent!
On December 08 2010 22:27 vanTuni wrote: Quick question. Have you encountered Feedback play with this? It seems to me as if with the recent shifts in meta-game and a lot of jinro-inspired Raven into Banshee TvP play, tosses have begun to incorporate feedback very early as a badass defense against harass. I've never really played your build here, but I wonder whether you have come across FB-Protoss counters to this, and can share you experience.
Cheers
Yep. Feedback is actually not frightening at all. This is just because there are way too many banshees to feedback. Storm is much more devastating for the clumped up banshees. What is annoying however, is feedback on my raven ugh. Otherwise, feedback is not intimidating. The best counter to that in a situation where you cannot deny detection is to cloak and uncloak to lower energy so that feedback doesn't do much damage, but you can still have enough energy to stay cloaked long enough.
Banshees are too strong vs Toss we know. It combines the 2 main weak points for toss, anti-air and detection. Tester knows all about this. Incorporate banshees into you play at any point and you'll have success.
The hallucination change and cheaper observer are going to make banshees a little less effective this patch aka scouted earlier so more prep time but not hurt combat efficiency. I really think a stalker buff would fix a ton of Toss problems but I'd rather see a buff to underused units to make the game more diverse
Can feedback cloaked units would be awesome, like "energy sense" so only the templar can attack it. Or maybe make feedback a VERY small AoE for the point of feedbacking 1 cloaked unit.
On December 09 2010 02:51 blitzkrieger wrote: Banshees are too strong vs Toss we know. It combines the 2 main weak points for toss, anti-air and detection. Tester knows all about this. Incorporate banshees into you play at any point and you'll have success.
The hallucination change and cheaper observer are going to make banshees a little less effective this patch aka scouted earlier so more prep time but not hurt combat efficiency. I really think a stalker buff would fix a ton of Toss problems but I'd rather see a buff to underused units to make the game more diverse
Can feedback cloaked units would be awesome, like "energy sense" so only the templar can attack it. Or maybe make feedback a VERY small AoE for the point of feedbacking 1 cloaked unit.
You bring up some really great points! Those 3 Protoss buffs really do have a play against banshees....Hallucinate a phoenix for scouting in lieu of an observer for better scouting, get cheaper obs in case detection is needed, and faster phoenix in case you need to. You'll also have a little more gas to spare since obs are cheaper. Wow O.O. NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO NEXT PATCH QQ.
On December 08 2010 15:38 cskalias.pbe wrote: I think the build is too vulnerable to dts (mostly because it can be difficult to scout and requires mins going to engi instead of marines for 4 gate pressure) and blink stalkers. Securing the expansion, especially vs blink stalkers when you have just marines is a nightmare. yeah yeah you can do certain things to defend both, but that doesn't change my statement. total nightmare.
However I love 4 port. The banshees + option to switch to bc's has been working really well. I've been using a variation of getting the expand after my factory (which i use for siege tanks to defend the expo and help with blink stalkers) and it's been working ok.
even though tanks are "mostly" worthless tvp, i've been having good success pushing after my initial wave of banshees with a couple tanks (3 ish?) mostly because it makes pressuring their expand from a decent position real easy.
DTs?? Really? I always figured the raven would come out sooner than the DT, coupled with two OCs for scans, that DTs weren't an issue. Can you post a replay of DT pressure? I know blink stalkers are an issue, I still have yet to find a proper solution to the problem.
Otherwise, I'm glad you like the build! Tanks aren't my style so I never use them, but if it works for you, excellent!
Cheers!
The fastest 10 depot raven (no expand) comes out at 6:40. For a 20CC, 22 Double Gas Raven, the timing I got vs. AI was 8:30. With the Second CC and no prior muling you will have 3 scans by 6:20 (~100 and ~50 energy respectively, but would you really not even use one mule?).
The fastest DT's come out around 6:20. So I guess in theory you shouldn't lose to DT's if you have scans. I think the biggest issue is that DT's, Blink Stalkers, and 4 gate pressure can all appear the same, especially with proxy pylon tech, so it's hard to allocate mules/scans.
It might be safer to delay fac/port, and get more rax/engineering bay + turret and use the mules for more marines/bunker/turret to be safe vs. both DT and stalker, but haven't had a chance to try.
On December 08 2010 15:38 cskalias.pbe wrote: I think the build is too vulnerable to dts (mostly because it can be difficult to scout and requires mins going to engi instead of marines for 4 gate pressure) and blink stalkers. Securing the expansion, especially vs blink stalkers when you have just marines is a nightmare. yeah yeah you can do certain things to defend both, but that doesn't change my statement. total nightmare.
However I love 4 port. The banshees + option to switch to bc's has been working really well. I've been using a variation of getting the expand after my factory (which i use for siege tanks to defend the expo and help with blink stalkers) and it's been working ok.
even though tanks are "mostly" worthless tvp, i've been having good success pushing after my initial wave of banshees with a couple tanks (3 ish?) mostly because it makes pressuring their expand from a decent position real easy.
DTs?? Really? I always figured the raven would come out sooner than the DT, coupled with two OCs for scans, that DTs weren't an issue. Can you post a replay of DT pressure? I know blink stalkers are an issue, I still have yet to find a proper solution to the problem.
Otherwise, I'm glad you like the build! Tanks aren't my style so I never use them, but if it works for you, excellent!
Cheers!
The fastest 10 depot raven (no expand) comes out at 6:40. For a 20CC, 22 Double Gas Raven, the timing I got vs. AI was 8:30. With the Second CC and no prior muling you will have 3 scans by 6:20 (~100 and ~50 energy respectively, but would you really not even use one mule?).
The fastest DT's come out around 6:20 (no zealots). So I guess in theory you shouldn't lose to DT's if you have scans. I think the biggest issue is that DT's, Blink Stalkers, and 4 gate pressure can all appear the same, especially with proxy pylon tech, so it's hard to allocate mules/scans.
It might be safer to delay fac/port, and get more rax/engineering bay + turret and use the mules for more marines/bunker/turret to be safe vs. both DT and stalker, but haven't had a chance to try.
On December 08 2010 15:38 cskalias.pbe wrote: I think the build is too vulnerable to dts (mostly because it can be difficult to scout and requires mins going to engi instead of marines for 4 gate pressure) and blink stalkers. Securing the expansion, especially vs blink stalkers when you have just marines is a nightmare. yeah yeah you can do certain things to defend both, but that doesn't change my statement. total nightmare.
However I love 4 port. The banshees + option to switch to bc's has been working really well. I've been using a variation of getting the expand after my factory (which i use for siege tanks to defend the expo and help with blink stalkers) and it's been working ok.
even though tanks are "mostly" worthless tvp, i've been having good success pushing after my initial wave of banshees with a couple tanks (3 ish?) mostly because it makes pressuring their expand from a decent position real easy.
DTs?? Really? I always figured the raven would come out sooner than the DT, coupled with two OCs for scans, that DTs weren't an issue. Can you post a replay of DT pressure? I know blink stalkers are an issue, I still have yet to find a proper solution to the problem.
Otherwise, I'm glad you like the build! Tanks aren't my style so I never use them, but if it works for you, excellent!
Cheers!
The fastest 10 depot raven (no expand) comes out at 6:40. For a 20CC, 22 Double Gas Raven, the timing I got vs. AI was 8:30. With the Second CC and no prior muling you will have 3 scans by 6:20 (~100 and ~50 energy respectively, but would you really not even use one mule?).
The fastest DT's come out around 6:20 (no zealots). So I guess in theory you shouldn't lose to DT's if you have scans. I think the biggest issue is that DT's, Blink Stalkers, and 4 gate pressure can all appear the same, especially with proxy pylon tech, so it's hard to allocate mules/scans.
It might be safer to delay fac/port, and get more rax/engineering bay + turret and use the mules for more marines/bunker/turret to be safe vs. both DT and stalker, but haven't had a chance to try.
Very useful to know. I actually did up running into a DT rush today. It was a little dicey, but once I got my raven out, I was in the clear. He was able to get away with a little harass but I had scans to clean up until the raven arrived. It's tough to know which early game pressure might hit you, so good scouting is key! I don't want to delay the factory too much since I do want to get that raven out ASAP. Turrets are unnecessary unless you spot stargate play or DTs you won't be able to hold off, otherwise just bunker down and tech. Thanks for the help and research! It's good stuff to know.
On December 09 2010 10:13 b_unnies wrote: eh saying that stalker is a counter to banshee is wrong. banshee can kill 2 stalkers by itself
Half right. I'd consider the stalker a soft counter because it shoots air and has the same range as the banshee, but in a 1 on 1, the banshee wins with half health. However with 2 stalkers, the stalkers win with 1 standing. So with similar logic, you want to have at least half as many banshees as he has stalkers to take him head on, not counting the fact that banshees can stack and therefore have more DPS.
On December 06 2010 11:49 noobcakes wrote: The one unit I hate the most, the banshee. Now becomes part of an actual good anti colossus build. Lord have Mercy
Hehehe Be afraid....very afraid. Imagine it...3 bases running smoothly, then you have 5 cloaked banshees in each one dropping probes like no one's business. You just can't have enough observers everywhere to deal with it. By far, my favorite unit :D
Banshee's are really getting its fame now. With the perfect micro, the shoot and scoot on time. It definitely pays off for it, myself as a 1800 toss when I see a banshee I'm forced to through up a forge or robotics as the fear of the banshee devours you. Not just does the starport pay off, it could switch the whole toss's gameplay into a whole new tech switch, which is difficult off 1-2 base.
On December 06 2010 11:49 noobcakes wrote: The one unit I hate the most, the banshee. Now becomes part of an actual good anti colossus build. Lord have Mercy
Hehehe Be afraid....very afraid. Imagine it...3 bases running smoothly, then you have 5 cloaked banshees in each one dropping probes like no one's business. You just can't have enough observers everywhere to deal with it. By far, my favorite unit :D
Banshee's are really getting its fame now. With the perfect micro, the shoot and scoot on time. It definitely pays off for it, myself as a 1800 toss when I see a banshee I'm forced to through up a forge or robotics as the fear of the banshee devours you. Not just does the starport pay off, it could switch the whole toss's gameplay into a whole new tech switch, which is difficult off 1-2 base.
You'll need detection for sure, just make sure you don't overcommit to it. A mass tech switch would play into my hands. Say, if you went entirely phoenixs + gateway units, I could just MM+Thor my way to a win instead of getting banshees. I'm glad you understand how annoying the banshee is for Protoss and how awesome it is for Terrans though :D
Honestly, I think the thread title should be change to TvP, how to kill P. yeah banshees are anticollosus, but they're antiground army in general. stalkers are decent against banshees (kinda?), but anything from a gateway (the core of a toss army) will be crushed by banshees.
As a Protoss player, I can tell you that this is extremely obnoxious to deal with when done correctly (sniping obs+PDD). Infact, replays of me getting owned by this were posted earlier in this thread.
Thanks Ender, especially for not including the ones where I actually beat it . <3
Anyway, I had been working with him on PvT alot, trying to find a late-game solution for Terran agasint Protoss. I had been suggesting Banshees for a while, and he wasn't down with the idea for a long time. I told him that out of all of Terran's T3 options, a mass of Banshees would be the most obnoxious to deal with by far, because of how miserable Stalkers are agasint air and that a commitment to Phoenix to deal with them leaves you vulnerable to lolstim on the ground.
As a Protoss player, I feel like you can only commit to one tech path (Collosus/Stargate/Templar) on 2 bases efficiently without sacrificing too much Gateway army, especially in this case when you need to spend a ton of on Obs. In the case of 4Port Banshee, I've found Templar to be the best choice. It definitely is an anti-Colossus build
Feedback can be good early agasint the Banshees, but once they get in larger numbers Storm is obviously the way to go. I also feel like Templar is the best choice because if they throw a Raven in, Feedback is there for the ever-obnoxious PDD (or Raven itself). The huge commitment to Banshees leaves their Bio without any Medivacs, so well placed storms are even more devastating.
The best way I've found to deal with this is to sit at home with Templar and fend off then Banshees and try and establish a 3rd. Once the third is up you can try to move out, add on the Stargates for a few Phoenix and eventually Carriers. The combination of Carrier/Templar is extremely tough for Terran to deal with.
Another way to break it would be a huge 6Gate timing push after a 1Gate FE before the Banshees are out. I've tried this before, and it seems like it would work, but I've miscontrolled my army horribly every time I've tried it and lost.
How is this supposed to deal with 2base phoenix/colossus or just plain phoenix builds? I understand that banshees will maul everything in large numbers but this works like a delayed polt timing, and phoenixes deal with that pretty easily. your putting yourself in a position where a few colossi and some phoenixes could clean up everything you have, once your tiny marine force is dead you have no way of killing phoenixes. there's also nothing stopping protoss from abandoning the colossi and transitioning to speedlot/HT/phoenix once he has the phoenixes.
You bring up some really great points! Those 3 Protoss buffs really do have a play against banshees....Hallucinate a phoenix for scouting in lieu of an observer for better scouting, get cheaper obs in case detection is needed, and faster phoenix in case you need to. You'll also have a little more gas to spare since obs are cheaper. Wow O.O. NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO NEXT PATCH QQ.
Cheer up we might get that mech buff we've all been wanting
On December 10 2010 06:03 Gecko wrote: How is this supposed to deal with 2base phoenix/colossus or just plain phoenix builds? I understand that banshees will maul everything in large numbers but this works like a delayed polt timing, and phoenixes deal with that pretty easily. your putting yourself in a position where a few colossi and some phoenixes could clean up everything you have, once your tiny marine force is dead you have no way of killing phoenixes. there's also nothing stopping protoss from abandoning the colossi and transitioning to speedlot/HT/phoenix once he has the phoenixes.
Considering that Phoenix openings lose to pretty much everything else Terran does, you aren't going to see them very often. Also, supporting Collosus and Phoenix off two bases leaves you with such a small Gateway army that if the Banshees can move in to take out the Collosus, you're probably dead.
What makes this build effective is Obs sniping and using Banshees to snipe tech structures and kill workers. When executed well it is extremely tough to deal with. Also, this is just a transition off of a Standard 2Rax FE. If you scout Stargate you don't have to go for the Banshees.
On December 10 2010 06:03 Gecko wrote: How is this supposed to deal with 2base phoenix/colossus or just plain phoenix builds? I understand that banshees will maul everything in large numbers but this works like a delayed polt timing, and phoenixes deal with that pretty easily. your putting yourself in a position where a few colossi and some phoenixes could clean up everything you have, once your tiny marine force is dead you have no way of killing phoenixes. there's also nothing stopping protoss from abandoning the colossi and transitioning to speedlot/HT/phoenix once he has the phoenixes.
Considering that Phoenix openings lose to pretty much everything else Terran does, you aren't going to see them very often. Also, supporting Collosus and Phoenix off two bases leaves you with such a small Gateway army that if the Banshees can move in to take out the Collosus, you're probably dead.
What makes this build effective is Obs sniping and using Banshees to snipe tech structures and kill workers. When executed well it is extremely tough to deal with. Also, this is just a transition off of a Standard 2Rax FE. If you scout Stargate you don't have to go for the Banshees.
Right on. Also, if I see phoenixs, I'll pull my army back and prep for a couple rounds of Vikings. They build rather quickly and are cheaper than banshees. This does two things:
1. Steals aggro away from the banshees and tank the phoenix damage, leaving my banshees unharmed.
2. Kills Phoenixs AND Colossi with ease. It's a matter of engaging smartly, I'll link a couple replays if you'd like to see that in action. Focus fire the phoenix with your marines also. The goal is to eliminate any threat to your banshees so that they can win the game for you.
On December 10 2010 06:03 Gecko wrote: How is this supposed to deal with 2base phoenix/colossus or just plain phoenix builds? I understand that banshees will maul everything in large numbers but this works like a delayed polt timing, and phoenixes deal with that pretty easily. your putting yourself in a position where a few colossi and some phoenixes could clean up everything you have, once your tiny marine force is dead you have no way of killing phoenixes. there's also nothing stopping protoss from abandoning the colossi and transitioning to speedlot/HT/phoenix once he has the phoenixes.
Considering that Phoenix openings lose to pretty much everything else Terran does, you aren't going to see them very often. Also, supporting Collosus and Phoenix off two bases leaves you with such a small Gateway army that if the Banshees can move in to take out the Collosus, you're probably dead.
What makes this build effective is Obs sniping and using Banshees to snipe tech structures and kill workers. When executed well it is extremely tough to deal with. Also, this is just a transition off of a Standard 2Rax FE. If you scout Stargate you don't have to go for the Banshees.
getting a starport after you one gate fast expand is a pretty common response to banshee builds and it is 100% safe if you play it well. I don't see how this would work against that, you have no marines and you put all your eggs into the banshee basket.
On December 10 2010 06:03 Gecko wrote: How is this supposed to deal with 2base phoenix/colossus or just plain phoenix builds? I understand that banshees will maul everything in large numbers but this works like a delayed polt timing, and phoenixes deal with that pretty easily. your putting yourself in a position where a few colossi and some phoenixes could clean up everything you have, once your tiny marine force is dead you have no way of killing phoenixes. there's also nothing stopping protoss from abandoning the colossi and transitioning to speedlot/HT/phoenix once he has the phoenixes.
Considering that Phoenix openings lose to pretty much everything else Terran does, you aren't going to see them very often. Also, supporting Collosus and Phoenix off two bases leaves you with such a small Gateway army that if the Banshees can move in to take out the Collosus, you're probably dead.
What makes this build effective is Obs sniping and using Banshees to snipe tech structures and kill workers. When executed well it is extremely tough to deal with. Also, this is just a transition off of a Standard 2Rax FE. If you scout Stargate you don't have to go for the Banshees.
getting a starport after you one gate fast expand is a pretty common response to banshee builds and it is 100% safe if you play it well. I don't see how this would work against that, you have no marines and you put all your eggs into the banshee basket.
Whaaaaaat? There's nonstop marine production out of 3 Rax from this build o.O. 5 Marines a cycle. That adds up quite quickly. There's plenty of marines to use If I'm forced into the situation, I'll make vikings as well. I addressed how well they work against phoenix in my last post. I'm working on adding in thors, which just destroy phoenix. Phoenix are starting to worry me less and less =]
The problem is, what happens if the toss goes chargelots? Chargelot/phoenix with a few collsai sprinkled in, maybe 2 just to be targets, will have absolutely no counter with what you have. I had a guy today just go straight chargelots when he saw mass marines, tell me about fucking up my first push when 4 phoenix rolled in my base and lifted scvs and pick off a dship.
Don't discredit the phoenix open, as I think they'll be becoming much more common in the new patch if build time stays as they changed it.
It'll couple with anything to beat marine tank, marine banshee, marauders in lower numbers, drops as phoenix move faster than jesus himself.
On December 10 2010 12:03 iAmJeffReY wrote: The problem is, what happens if the toss goes chargelots? Chargelot/phoenix with a few collsai sprinkled in, maybe 2 just to be targets, will have absolutely no counter with what you have. I had a guy today just go straight chargelots when he saw mass marines, tell me about fucking up my first push when 4 phoenix rolled in my base and lifted scvs and pick off a dship.
Don't discredit the phoenix open, as I think they'll be becoming much more common in the new patch if build time stays as they changed it.
It'll couple with anything to beat marine tank, marine banshee, marauders in lower numbers, drops as phoenix move faster than jesus himself.
I completely agree with you. That's pretty much the composition of units that hard counters this build. You need vikings. There's no way around that. The vikings will take care of the phoenix for you. Pull back and defend while you get a few rounds of vikings out with the 4 port. Chargelots will still melt to banshees. The vikings will pick up the slack for the marines. I just go mass marine because vikings cut into banshee production and marines are a good mineral dump. Vikings vikings vikings
I'm in gold, so when I was playing earlier today and my Raven didn't find an observer in my base, I thought my opponent was just a moron. It was actually at the back of my natural, and I didn't find it. He actually moved it in when my Starports were nearing completion, and when I was watching the replay I was surprised when he didn't start building any Stargates once he saw my Ports. He just stuck to his 2 Robo build and I annihilated him, but when I was watching the replay I felt like I should've lost.
The moral of the story here is that it seems very hard to completely deny scouting to a determined Protoss - you only have one Raven, and they have a ton of ways they can finagle an Observer behind it. Granted, the window they have to find Starports before it's too late to begin Phoenix production is pretty small, but it exists, and if they make it through you're basically kold.
On December 11 2010 04:42 audeamus wrote: I'm in gold, so when I was playing earlier today and my Raven didn't find an observer in my base, I thought my opponent was just a moron. It was actually at the back of my natural, and I didn't find it. He actually moved it in when my Starports were nearing completion, and when I was watching the replay I was surprised when he didn't start building any Stargates once he saw my Ports. He just stuck to his 2 Robo build and I annihilated him, but when I was watching the replay I felt like I should've lost.
The moral of the story here is that it seems very hard to completely deny scouting to a determined Protoss - you only have one Raven, and they have a ton of ways they can finagle an Observer behind it. Granted, the window they have to find Starports before it's too late to begin Phoenix production is pretty small, but it exists, and if they make it through you're basically kold.
I actually played a few games from the point of a Protoss against this build with a practice partner. You can actually make an astounding number of phoenixs when you see more than 1 starport in the window before their push, but my partner outsmarted me. He scanned, turtled back and made vikings and BCs and roflpwned me. So what I learned there is you can scout the Toss during this small window, see how they react, and then transition accordingly. I'm also planning on adding a couple thors in with the push to deal with phoenix, so this coupled with that might actually negate phoenix as a counter. We'll see
Re: Transition: So while you're building the tech labs, you want to scan and see if they've added any Stargates? That seems fairly reasonable. They probably won't be able to build Pylons to hide the Stargates from scans. However, transitioning into Vikings just seems like it puts you at parity; you have a bunch of infantry, they have Colossi, you have Vikings and eventually BCs, they have Phoenixes and Stalkers. At that point it seems like turtling up and claiming a third base is better than direct aggression.
A Thor transition might be more reasonable. It's expensive, but at least then the Factory *does* something. You probably can't support four Banshees plus Marines plus a Thor, but you can definitely swap two Banshees for a Thor. The problem is that you need three or more Ports to get enough Banshees to the point where you can just mow through Stalkers (and Colossi.) I guess you can use the Thor to 250mm down the Colossi?
On December 11 2010 04:42 audeamus wrote: I'm in gold, so when I was playing earlier today and my Raven didn't find an observer in my base, I thought my opponent was just a moron. It was actually at the back of my natural, and I didn't find it. He actually moved it in when my Starports were nearing completion, and when I was watching the replay I was surprised when he didn't start building any Stargates once he saw my Ports. He just stuck to his 2 Robo build and I annihilated him, but when I was watching the replay I felt like I should've lost.
The moral of the story here is that it seems very hard to completely deny scouting to a determined Protoss - you only have one Raven, and they have a ton of ways they can finagle an Observer behind it. Granted, the window they have to find Starports before it's too late to begin Phoenix production is pretty small, but it exists, and if they make it through you're basically kold.
I actually played a few games from the point of a Protoss against this build with a practice partner. You can actually make an astounding number of phoenixs when you see more than 1 starport in the window before their push, but my partner outsmarted me. He scanned, turtled back and made vikings and BCs and roflpwned me. So what I learned there is you can scout the Toss during this small window, see how they react, and then transition accordingly. I'm also planning on adding a couple thors in with the push to deal with phoenix, so this coupled with that might actually negate phoenix as a counter. We'll see
Oooo this will become the Thor Banshee build that Painuser uses. Needs micro though, and casual players might not like it for that. They might wanna stick to MMM and ADD mass Thor OR mass banshee, with 1-2 ravens late game.
On December 11 2010 14:46 audeamus wrote: Re: Transition: So while you're building the tech labs, you want to scan and see if they've added any Stargates? That seems fairly reasonable. They probably won't be able to build Pylons to hide the Stargates from scans. However, transitioning into Vikings just seems like it puts you at parity; you have a bunch of infantry, they have Colossi, you have Vikings and eventually BCs, they have Phoenixes and Stalkers. At that point it seems like turtling up and claiming a third base is better than direct aggression.
A Thor transition might be more reasonable. It's expensive, but at least then the Factory *does* something. You probably can't support four Banshees plus Marines plus a Thor, but you can definitely swap two Banshees for a Thor. The problem is that you need three or more Ports to get enough Banshees to the point where you can just mow through Stalkers (and Colossi.) I guess you can use the Thor to 250mm down the Colossi?
But you've got to admit, against good Toss, its kinda hard to get in range for the 250mm, no? Especially with zealot surround and colossi kiting you...
On December 11 2010 14:46 audeamus wrote: Re: Transition: So while you're building the tech labs, you want to scan and see if they've added any Stargates? That seems fairly reasonable. They probably won't be able to build Pylons to hide the Stargates from scans. However, transitioning into Vikings just seems like it puts you at parity; you have a bunch of infantry, they have Colossi, you have Vikings and eventually BCs, they have Phoenixes and Stalkers. At that point it seems like turtling up and claiming a third base is better than direct aggression.
A Thor transition might be more reasonable. It's expensive, but at least then the Factory *does* something. You probably can't support four Banshees plus Marines plus a Thor, but you can definitely swap two Banshees for a Thor. The problem is that you need three or more Ports to get enough Banshees to the point where you can just mow through Stalkers (and Colossi.) I guess you can use the Thor to 250mm down the Colossi?
Well if your opponent has Phoenix, you can still make banshees. They will most likely switch from robo tech to stargate to tech to deal with the impending air force. The purpose of making vikings is to tank damage, help kill phoenix and give your banshees a little more freedom to clear the ground force. Viking + marine takes care of phoenix quite easily. I will turtle a little longer personally, until i hit 8 vikings, and then take a third. I still want to be aggressive and push ASAP.
250mm might be unnecessary, it's very hard to hit colossi at range with the ability. I want it there for it's strong AA and ability to tank damage. Its long air range helps in sniping obs and killing clumped phoenix so that my banshees are safe. I would only make 2 thors for the push, rather than cut banshees to assume constant production of thors. They are just there to ward phoenix away and make my push that much stronger ^_^
Ok this strategy does not seem to work anymore now when every Protoss do like MC and forcefield around the bunkers preventing the SCVs to repair. Their attack hit right before you can get Banshees out.
Maybe you need to make a Planetary at your expansion to fight this? But you give up so much economy if you do.
i hate this strat as protoss you should try to transition with thors, because the weakness of your build is obviously phoenix. A friend make a similar build with a safer expand, 3sp@banshee then thors. it works.
This is what I have been doing (banshee->thor). Protoss responds with mass stalker and/or templar to the mass banshees, which are weak vs my thor.
I do a similar strat to the poster( without FE), but it is the early protoss pushes that always destroy me (3gate stargate notably).
On December 12 2010 04:46 MockHamill wrote: Ok this strategy does not seem to work anymore now when every Protoss do like MC and forcefield around the bunkers preventing the SCVs to repair. Their attack hit right before you can get Banshees out.
Maybe you need to make a Planetary at your expansion to fight this? But you give up so much economy if you do.
I here what you're saying...Idk, it's very hard to get enough forcefields to cover three bunkers without cutting into the core of a gateway army. I haven't experienced this yet, but I'll let you know what happens if I do. A Planetary is definitely a possibility, but again, it does cut into eco quite a bit, so I wouldn't recommend it.
i hate this strat as protoss you should try to transition with thors, because the weakness of your build is obviously phoenix. A friend make a similar build with a safer expand, 3sp@banshee then thors. it works.
This is what I have been doing (banshee->thor). Protoss responds with mass stalker and/or templar to the mass banshees, which are weak vs my thor.
I do a similar strat to the poster( without FE), but it is the early protoss pushes that always destroy me (3gate stargate notably).
Yeah, the early game is where you're vulnerable. While the 3 bunkers + mass marines is sturdy, there is always room for improvement and a stronger defence before the banshees come out. That's why I'm trying to work the thors in. I still love this build regardless ^_^
While your build is nice in theory, 3 bunkers and mass marines is not sturdy at the upper levels.
Scenario 1: 4gate robo with a warp prism in your main, to defend against 4 zealots your going to need to empty out at least 1 bunker, the problem is by the time you finish dealing with the first 4 zealots there are 4 more so you need to empty out another bunker, this is when the protoss main force hits your front and you die.
Scenario 2: Mass blink stalkers end up in your base about when your cueing up your first round of banshees, you lose all your scvs and if you remain calm you attack with your marines once the banshees pop, but he just retreats using your base against you to pick off banshees.
In the replay where you showcase how you hold against a 4gate on steps, he could easily have killed the rocks and walked in behind your bunkers, in fact this has happened to me exactly the way it could have happened to you. You will have to empty the bunkers but you won't have any chance without them.
My problem with the build is that I just really don't believe that Terran can 1rax FE vs a 1basing protoss, it just doesn't work against experienced opponents who will know exactly what your doing.
On December 12 2010 12:25 statikg wrote: While your build is nice in theory, 3 bunkers and mass marines is not sturdy at the upper levels.
Scenario 1: 4gate robo with a warp prism in your main, to defend against 4 zealots your going to need to empty out at least 1 bunker, the problem is by the time you finish dealing with the first 4 zealots there are 4 more so you need to empty out another bunker, this is when the protoss main force hits your front and you die.
Scenario 2: Mass blink stalkers end up in your base about when your cueing up your first round of banshees, you lose all your scvs and if you remain calm you attack with your marines once the banshees pop, but he just retreats using your base against you to pick off banshees.
In the replay where you showcase how you hold against a 4gate on steps, he could easily have killed the rocks and walked in behind your bunkers, in fact this has happened to me exactly the way it could have happened to you. You will have to empty the bunkers but you won't have any chance without them.
My problem with the build is that I just really don't believe that Terran can 1rax FE vs a 1basing protoss, it just doesn't work against experienced opponents who will know exactly what your doing.
This is why I usually only use this strategy on maps with naturals that have small, easy to defend chokes. 3 bunkers + mass marines is just enough to hold out until my banshees come out. It's not meant to be a permanent defence, but more of a time buffer.
Vs 4gate robo, I need to be diligent about my scouting. I try my best to keep an eye around my map for possible warp prism drops, as I know they'll be looking for other means to bypass my wall. The best defence is a few turrets scattered around the edge of my base of I scout anything like this happening. Otherwise, I have to use marines+scvs to buy as much time as possible. It's not easy to defend and I do need to find a better way to expo with better defence.
vs Mass blink stalkers, I can scout a little bit earlier and transition to mass marauder to defend. This is a pretty common response to my wall, so I know what needs to be to handle it. It's never an easy situation, but the push can be held off until banshees arrive, and you need to use those immediately to deal enough damage to catch back up.
The 4gate Jungle Basin replay is a bit old. That is now my strongest map...I always have 1 marine patrolling the outside of my base for proxy pylons to warp into my nat, and a couple marines at either ends of the destructable rocks to watch for any break-ins. 3 bunkers at my main ramp will deter pushes there, and if I scout them breaking my backdoor rocks, I throw down three more bunkers on the top of the natural ramp and tech behind that. It's nearly unbreakable and very easy to scout the aggressive play. It does delay my expansion quite a bit, but it lets me get my banshees out, which allows me to clean up the push and take my expo safely while counterattacking.
1 Rax FE is starting to become outdated with me...I may 2 rax FE or do an early 1 base timing push and expand behind that instead with the intention of 4 Port banshees. It's worked well for me so far, but people are slowly catching on so I'll have to adapt eventually.
The 3 bunkers not even fully stacked with Marines is a paper-thin defense that people can go through or around with zero problems.
I've seen a couple of replays in OP and I have to say I'm amazed that this thread has reached 9 pages. Your 4-Gate opponent (on Steppes) had enough of an army to crush the bunkers without Guardian Shields and it wouldn't even be close, but he obviously wasn't aware of that. Similar to that guy (don't remember which exact replay it was now) who instead of crushing the bunkers warped in Stalkers at the cliff that he could then never get off the cliff (which was hilarious btw =D). That guy easily had the army to kill you all game but in the end he sacrificed it one half at a time.
I would like to dispel any illusions people might have that bunkers with Marines are enough to defend against much any properly executed Protoss agression on Diamond level. You won't have people running away from them as if they were the Great Wall of China all the time.
Yes, Banshees are good in TvP later on, but they are good in the way PainUser demonstrated at MLG, not the way this build does it. I'd gladly watch any newer/better replays, but this is far from a viable high level build from what I could see.
On December 13 2010 07:25 Talin wrote: The 3 bunkers not even fully stacked with Marines is a paper-thin defense that people can go through or around with zero problems.
I've seen a couple of replays in OP and I have to say I'm amazed that this thread has reached 9 pages. Your 4-Gate opponent (on Steppes) had enough of an army to crush the bunkers without Guardian Shields and it wouldn't even be close, but he obviously wasn't aware of that. Similar to that guy (don't remember which exact replay it was now) who instead of crushing the bunkers warped in Stalkers at the cliff that he could then never get off the cliff (which was hilarious btw =D). That guy easily had the army to kill you all game but in the end he sacrificed it one half at a time.
I would like to dispel any illusions people might have that bunkers with Marines are enough to defend against much any properly executed Protoss agression on Diamond level. You won't have people running away from them as if they were the Great Wall of China all the time.
Yes, Banshees are good in TvP later on, but they are good in the way PainUser demonstrated at MLG, not the way this build does it. I'd gladly watch any newer/better replays, but this is far from a viable high level build from what I could see.
One of the nicer things about having three bunkers is that it can be deceptive. How are you to know they're not fully stacked? It's a big risk to suicide into that many bunkers. I usually have a control of group of SCVs at my natural with autorepair set so I can repair those bunkers. Sure, they can break the defence, but by the time they do, they don't have enough left to do signicant damage where another round of marines + SCVs can't clean up.
I really do appreciate you being critical about this though, yes I do know 3 bunkers with a few marines is paperthin, but they've carried me through 2300 Diamond as of yet. I think the what I really need to tweak is a better early game that leads me to getting my midgame banshees without risk of dying quickly. I could always 2 Rax FE like everyone says I should, but I'm a stubborn bastard xD. 2 Rax FE would fill those bunkers quicker and with more units...Yeah I need to transition to that xD. Thanks again!
I've been trying this strat out for the past few games. I've had a little trouble against protoss but that was because I didn't a-move when I moved out and the other was poor bunker placement. Also, I've had quite a bit of luck with this strat in TvT especially. Banshees mobility is great, especially when going up against marines, and they tear apart thors and siege tanks. Your marines should be able to take care of any vikings they have too. I have a friend who plays protoss so maybe I can get some practice iin on him tomorrow :p
On December 13 2010 08:35 Synystyr wrote: One of the nicer things about having three bunkers is that it can be deceptive. How are you to know they're not fully stacked?
The only thing you need to see is that no Marauder shells are coming out of the Bunkers to know you can break it pretty easily. Besides that, you could just poke in with one Zealot and see if all the bunkers are firing and how much damage it takes. Also 300 Minerals in Bunkers and 400 in expo + saturation (because why else would you have put the bunkers at natural choke) means you can't really have 15 Marines inside and behind the wall. Given a minimum of game sense, the Protoss has plenty of information telling him it's perfectly safe (and even a fantastic opportunity) to attack.
SCV repair is negated by Forcefields. Even without FFs I'm pretty sure that 4 Gate army (6 Stalkers 4 Zealots 3 Sentires iirc) could still get past just by sniping SCVs as they come. All you had at the time was 7 Marines in Bunkers and 8th on his way... that's an extremely uneven battle, even with Bunkers, repairs and everything. He wouldn't have lost more than 4 of his units to clear it out and nothing you had behind the wall was ready to deal with what he would have left.
It's one thing to rely on deception, and seeing what those players did I can see it apparently works often =/. It's a whole different thing to hope those Bunkers can actually defend against any reasonable Protoss attack. If the other player realizes he can commit to an attack, it's an inevitable gg.
I'd like to bump this thread, because this TVP build can work wonders. I 've tried every other strategy involving bio + medivac or mech(which fails) and other gimmicky stuff.
I haven't exactly seen your replays, but Azzur's one, he has a similar thread like this.
It's the starport spam build. Late game transitions when on 3 base is to add BCs. Spread out the banshee's against storm and win the air fight by adding vikings. Play by complete air domination. If you can win the air fight you can win the game. Spam vikings and marines to take out phoenix and go for special timing with raven PDD, and win. Banshee spam ftw. It's most likely blizzard intended for this build to work (starport spam) because any factory or rax builds have a use by date as they don't scale and not worth the dps and mobility. siege tanks ,hellions and thors are too easily countered/
If protoss love ground domination give it to them you play by air and mass cloak banshee.
I think I'm just pulling this build off wrong. I've palyed a few more games against protoss, and I'm having a bit of trouble. My marines die instantly to HTs and that leaves banshees to get torn apart by stalkers. I've gone back to my marine marauder ghost timing push.
On December 13 2010 08:35 Synystyr wrote: One of the nicer things about having three bunkers is that it can be deceptive. How are you to know they're not fully stacked?
The only thing you need to see is that no Marauder shells are coming out of the Bunkers to know you can break it pretty easily. Besides that, you could just poke in with one Zealot and see if all the bunkers are firing and how much damage it takes. Also 300 Minerals in Bunkers and 400 in expo + saturation (because why else would you have put the bunkers at natural choke) means you can't really have 15 Marines inside and behind the wall. Given a minimum of game sense, the Protoss has plenty of information telling him it's perfectly safe (and even a fantastic opportunity) to attack.
SCV repair is negated by Forcefields. Even without FFs I'm pretty sure that 4 Gate army (6 Stalkers 4 Zealots 3 Sentires iirc) could still get past just by sniping SCVs as they come. All you had at the time was 7 Marines in Bunkers and 8th on his way... that's an extremely uneven battle, even with Bunkers, repairs and everything. He wouldn't have lost more than 4 of his units to clear it out and nothing you had behind the wall was ready to deal with what he would have left.
It's one thing to rely on deception, and seeing what those players did I can see it apparently works often =/. It's a whole different thing to hope those Bunkers can actually defend against any reasonable Protoss attack. If the other player realizes he can commit to an attack, it's an inevitable gg.
This is quite true to be perfectly honest. So far, deception has let me stay in the game for quite a while. It's still menacing to see three bunkers being repaired. Most Protoss see that and back out, not really knowing exactly what they expect to see behind that wall. However, as I play more higher level players, I'll need more than that. As I said, I think a 2 Rax FE with marauders would be much safer, and would easily hold a 4Gate push like that. Crushing the early attack will give me a clear advantage into the midgame where I can tech to banshees with ease and win the game that way. I'll experiment with this play and post replays and update when done. Thanks a lot sir!
On December 14 2010 02:52 snrcrackles wrote: I think I'm just pulling this build off wrong. I've palyed a few more games against protoss, and I'm having a bit of trouble. My marines die instantly to HTs and that leaves banshees to get torn apart by stalkers. I've gone back to my marine marauder ghost timing push.
Have you watched any of the replays? It sounds like you may have trouble with the timing push if he's getting templars out against you. Can you post a replay? Maybe I can help you out if I see how you play ^_^
Synystyr I think I owe you an apology. I have revitalized my TvP, and now the matchup at 2500 which I was most afraid of is no more. I have slightly modified your build, I open 2 naked rax FE into 2-3 bunkers map dependent throw down a ton of gas, use my factory for scouting goodness and get a bunch of starports. Open up with a raven, switch to banshees and the key is to add a few vikings! Because you guessed it, you gotta 1 - out produce any phenoixes and 2 - snipe those obs! Since I have become an obs sniper I have been able to beat protoss. Can't beat those collosus? Just don't fight them. Harass the base, force stalkers, snipe stalkers, go harass the expansion. It works like a charm. Great stuff.
Void ray opening? No problem tons of extra marines around, Immortal gateway push, 3 bunkers plus extra marines and the first banshee or two can hold it, phenoixes? lots of marines around but be careful with those banshees. The great thing is, once you get to 3tech lab and a reactor starport, if they try to put all their gas into pheonixes, they just dont have the infrastructure to keep up and your well positioned to pump out 5 vikings at a time, no problem
HT's...well HTs seem to be the biggest problem, you really have to send in your vikings ahead and make sure you snipe those obs or all your banshees get feedbacked and you lose, but really not very many protoss are opening straight into HT, and once you are doing this build to them they will be spending all their gas on more stalkers and obs.
On December 15 2010 15:39 statikg wrote: Synystyr I think I owe you an apology. I have revitalized my TvP, and now the matchup at 2500 which I was most afraid of is no more. I have slightly modified your build, I open 2 naked rax FE into 2-3 bunkers map dependent throw down a ton of gas, use my factory for scouting goodness and get a bunch of starports. Open up with a raven, switch to banshees and the key is to add a few vikings! Because you guessed it, you gotta 1 - out produce any phenoixes and 2 - snipe those obs! Since I have become an obs sniper I have been able to beat protoss. Can't beat those collosus? Just don't fight them. Harass the base, force stalkers, snipe stalkers, go harass the expansion. It works like a charm. Great stuff.
Void ray opening? No problem tons of extra marines around, Immortal gateway push, 3 bunkers plus extra marines and the first banshee or two can hold it, phenoixes? lots of marines around but be careful with those banshees. The great thing is, once you get to 3tech lab and a reactor starport, if they try to put all their gas into pheonixes, they just dont have the infrastructure to keep up and your well positioned to pump out 5 vikings at a time, no problem
HT's...well HTs seem to be the biggest problem, you really have to send in your vikings ahead and make sure you snipe those obs or all your banshees get feedbacked and you lose, but really not very many protoss are opening straight into HT, and once you are doing this build to them they will be spending all their gas on more stalkers and obs.
I'm glad you were able to pick it up! I'm a firm believer that the only way to beat a Protoss in the mid to late game is to go air. Terran Air is superior to anything a Protoss can throw at you. Nothing is better than sniping the obs, leaving your cloaked banshees to wreak havoc =]
It's very easy to adapt to what your opponent has with what you have. Good scouting is vital and it's also very important to make sure you have the forces to defend any early pushes. I've started leaning towards a 2 Rax + Tech/Reactor expand for a large bio force + bunkers to defend my expansion. This opening is very solid and if you scout your opponent being very greedy, you can even attack and punish him. As long as you get those 4 starports up and running, you're in good shape!
I've found that their just aren't enough HTs around to feedback ALL of your banshees, and even then, banshees do just fine uncloaked as well. Storm can be an issue if your banshees are stacked, so just keep them spread when you spot templars and use your marines as bait. And like you said, the response to this build are other very gas intensive units that leave them starving to produce HTs. Thanks for using the build and I'll be checking that replay out later
Also, one thing about this build is that many people don't realise that the opening is really entirely up to you as long as you can transition to terran air in the midgame (i.e. don't open 3-rax). If you feel that you can't hold your expo with 1-rax FE, you can open 1-1-1 or 2-rax FE and still transition to the build.
On December 16 2010 03:33 Azzur wrote: Also, one thing about this build is that many people don't realise that the opening is really entirely up to you as long as you can transition to terran air in the midgame (i.e. don't open 3-rax). If you feel that you can't hold your expo with 1-rax FE, you can open 1-1-1 or 2-rax FE and still transition to the build.
I feel really strongly that you cannot hold with a 1rax FE against a good toss UNLESS he is also doing a 1-2gate FE. I really like the no gas 2naked rax opening because it really lets you get a really fast expansion WITH a strong force of marines which are effective at holding every type of opening protoss attack until collosus by which point I would certainly hope you have some air.
One base toss are just so effective at busting Terran defences that I don't think 1rax gives you enough marines, especially if you have to split your forces to deal with void ray harass with a supporting gateway force at the front. especially now that MC showed all the upper level toss how to defeat bunkers without immortals ... (immortals just straight up own bunkers but luckily they are not effective against the mass marines you can put out with a 2rax FE).
You are certainly free to open techlab/reactor which I would call the standard PvT opening allowing for pressure against a greedy toss while allowing you to still expand fairly quickly, but I think it really slows down and reduces the power behind your build -> FE into mass air production, because you have to get early gas and spend alot of it on add-ons and mauarders, getting even that one refinery and putting 3 scvs takes a major cut out of the minerals you could have, it may not be obvious but at the point int the game when you only have about 12 scvs its actually a big deal.
I would be concerned that it is giving the protoss to much time to react to what your up to, they could get alot more phenoxies, more observers, more stalkers, and at least at the beginning its pretty key to be able to harass and pick off small stalker forces and as much random stuff as you can. Taking down the robotics facility (only 900hp) is soooo helpful in this build once you have enough banshees to do so. Since nexuses have such ridiculous HP these days its better to go after tech structures unless you have a ridiculous number of banshees.
Another big concern for me remains, warp prism harass, this isn't really integrated into 95% of protoss play, but those few who have done so...it just sucks, its really hard to deal with potentially 8 unit drop in the back of your base with pure marines, but i guess its a big commitment for the protoss as well.
Well warp prism harass comes before you have vikings with a FE (i almost always pop out a raven and a couple banshees first to defend against a possible big attack around this point), also on delta quadrant if you FE your probably going to take your outside expansion first which blocks off that pylon spot.
The build looks good on paper, but it seems to me that only if the P player is not aggressive can this build succeed. Things to look for as a Terran player are the double gates, that should indicate that it isn't safe to expand unless you want to gamble on the P player being bad. If you are going to use this build, make sure you can adjust as needed if you see the indications of early pressure.
These replays only prove that you were better then your opponents. They played very weak games. In deltra quadrant that guy actually managed to lose 12+ marines without killing a single one of your units. His marines were literally running around like chickens with their heads cut off in random directions and doing as little as possible. In scrap station, if he just built a single bunker behind his supply depots, your early pressure was completely nullified. I think that I probably could have held your pressure in both games without a bunker with some simple step micro and having more marines/actually keeping my marines in a ball since I prefer to open 12/14rax into constant marines.
You can't shoot down a build based on some really weak examples like these.
On December 16 2010 06:58 statikg wrote: These replays only prove that you were better then your opponents. They played very weak games. In deltra quadrant that guy actually managed to lose 12+ marines without killing a single one of your units. His marines were literally running around like chickens with their heads cut off in random directions and doing as little as possible. In scrap station, if he just built a single bunker behind his supply depots, your early pressure was completely nullified. I think that I probably could have held your pressure in both games without a bunker with some simple step micro and having more marines/actually keeping my marines in a ball since I prefer to open 12/14rax into constant marines.
You can't shoot down a build based on some really weak examples like these.
I would be the first to say they all played bad starting with the fact that saw 2 gateways and still tried to FE. However, for the common T player on TL who wants to try something new and is at the 2100-2300 level North America, to avoid disappointment they need to be aware of what mistakes can be made that make an otherwise practical build seem like something to be avoided. From my PvT experience, any sort of FE by the Terran cannot be held by the type of pressure I bring maybe because they aren't good enough. This is especially true if the build order calls for a rax at 12, and the next one at 38 (which is just ludicrous). For the top players out there, of course they can manage so much more in less time, but I don't think this thread is aimed at those top players. Thanks for the analysis though!
Truthfully I find that as I get further up the ranks protoss are less and less apt to try to one base me. I haven't encountered a 2gate opening in a long time, but I have held off 3gate robo before with no problems. Also 2 gate void rays. I have only been actively using this build for a couple days actually so I havn't run into a 4gate example yet but I would be surprised if it gave me more trouble then a 3gate robo (as the immortals make repairing bunkers really difficult). However I suppose if one was four gating with excellent sentry use (they would probably need 2 gas delaying the attack a bit) and they used forcefields to prevent me from supporting/repairing my bunkers, then they might be able to break me. I'm not sure though because then they would have come later (need 2gas) and have less stalkers and my marines behind the forcefields could engage if there were alot of zealots. Thats pure theory craft however.
I imagine a well executed 2gate pressure would be able to contain me in my base, but what does the protoss do from there? Being contained hurts me to some degree because I am stuck in my base with an extra OC, but the amount of gas the protoss put into the contain puts him behind me on tech (I put up my refiners shortly after I drop my second CC) and also behind me on economy due to extra OC production, and because he used his crono boosts on warpgate, early pressure instead of probes. I imagine he would expand behind his contain, but he would be hard pressed to do so while maintaining the necessary units to keep me from busting out AND getting an observer that he is going to need, AND remember, I am still VERY WELL set up to do a slightly delayed polt timing attack which would probably end up crushing a protoss with this opening even if he doesnt expand as collosus would come too late (this is almost certainly how I would respond). Anyway, pure theorycraft, I'm sure that is the approximate reason why you don't see much 2gate pressure in high level starcraft though.
Yeah that's true, maybe 2 gate pressure is obsolete compared to the better openings there are, but I think it is viable still. If, for instance, 2 gate pressure is considered to be outdated and T players are used to "better" openings by the P player, then they might find themselves unprepared for it when it comes. That's my hope in using it.
My 2 gate pressure is 1 zeal, 2 stalkers, 2 zealots and then tech while I poke. Obviously I don't suicide, but I look for openings and chances to bait out anti air units because I usually go VR against Terran. My sequence is usually 2 gate pressure to VR stargate, to sentry contain and expand with cannons, to high templar/immortal. This game plan has been pretty sound for me against the Terrans I've faced, but as soon as it ceases to work with regularity, I will most likely change it!
I would say that that is a pretty decent opening in fact, especially if you can get your voidrays charged off rocks or a depot or something before the engagement, it just doesnt work very well against mass marines, because they counter voidrays pretty hard and they do reasonably against gateway.
I'm sure you also probably often do damage against a greedy teching terran with no wall, however IMO the metagame is swinging back towards walling against protoss because of increase in DT usage. I get so upset when I get DT rushed (because I usually expect proxy voidrays when I see missing tech), and its actually started happening to me with some regularity for some reason recently so thats why I'm walling again, although it does make me weaker against void rays charging on my wall, I think its worth it because I can just liftoff my rax and abandon my supply depots which is a much cheaper loss then what happens when a couple unexpected dts show up.
Yeah I was gonna say if you wall off it's easier to harass and precharge voidrays unless the bunker is part of the wall, and even then there is probably an opening to precharge. The DT rush thing is popular because I know I can expand behind roaming Dark Templars and Terrans usually have to get a Raven to be able to move out of their base. If I were to suggest something from a P perspective, it would be to take the extra time and minerals to put up a turret at your wall off and you will avoid both dangers pretty well
I'm not sure if it is in my replays but when I add sentries into my unit composition, marines don't cut it in a 3gate/Void Ray engagement cause I focus fire the marines and micro the rays out of range. This initial battle is usually won and then the Terran is too far behind to recover. In fact, a few games I skip stalkers altogether and have like 3 sentries, 2 rays, and like 7-8 zealots
The shift in popularity of the Templar may cause this build to be less effective, in addition to this we have phoinexs being more practical because they take a lot less time to build. The design of the build is nice but its becoming alot more risky. Not to mention the usefulness of feedback. At any rate ill give it a go and see how to works. Rather ill get my practice partner to use it so i can play against it.
On December 17 2010 11:25 Liquid_Adun wrote: The shift in popularity of the Templar may cause this build to be less effective, in addition to this we have phoinexs being more practical because they take a lot less time to build. The design of the build is nice but its becoming alot more risky. Not to mention the usefulness of feedback. At any rate ill give it a go and see how to works. Rather ill get my practice partner to use it so i can play against it.
Thanks for the nice build, Adun
I don't think feedbacks would hit enough banshees. Sure you would get like 2 or 3 from what I've experienced, but the rest will cloak and if the terran is good enough they will cloak even faster. You can't feedback cloaked units thats the problem :S. Once their cloaked, if the templars waste energy on feedback, they wont be as cost effective if they were using storm.
On December 14 2010 02:52 snrcrackles wrote: I think I'm just pulling this build off wrong. I've palyed a few more games against protoss, and I'm having a bit of trouble. My marines die instantly to HTs and that leaves banshees to get torn apart by stalkers. I've gone back to my marine marauder ghost timing push.
Really, your doing it wrong then. Your banshee(s) shouldn't get killed by stalker's if they're cloaked. Obviously your not scanning to shoot down the observer with your marines; which is a key part in this build. It's these small key points that will ruin the whole strategy if you do it wrong.
On December 17 2010 22:30 RaraOoLala wrote: cheese
Admins, why isn't this guy temp banned/warned?
Anyway, back to topic, do you guys think that having one raven or two with the viking/banshee composition be better than using scans? Imagine the amount minerals saved which can be use for MM re-macroing.
On December 17 2010 22:30 RaraOoLala wrote: cheese
Admins, why isn't this guy temp banned/warned?
Anyway, back to topic, do you guys think that having one raven or two with the viking/banshee composition be better than using scans? Imagine the amount minerals saved which can be use for MM re-macroing.
Because going 4starport banshee off 2 bases while viable is still kinda cheesy. wiki.teamliquid says: "Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies on large parts on secrecy and/or psychological impact on the opponent.
Players use cheese to force a more unbalanced game. The unbalanced nature of cheese usually serve to make decision making on the defending side more fatal. Thus, the cheesing player is given a chance to come back from an otherwise lost game or the possibility to outwit a stronger opponent. A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack.
A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage."
It even says in the guide that after you get your raven out you need to shut down the obs and effectively the protoss opponents scouting methods. If the protoss scouts 4starport banshee hes going to go 2starport phenoix and start cranking out obs to detect. With the marines getting wiped out easily from splash damage the thing that makes this build work is that the protoss wont expect or be able to scout the number of banshees you have. I agree with Rara while this build is very strong and well thought out its strength still relies on the protoss not to scout it which would make it a cheese. And yes a cheese can happen in the late game. Remember TvP in SC BW? The terran would build up an army and secure 3bases with a small amount of siege tanks vultures and goliaths and attack the protoss when they took a 3rd base to do the most damage because the protoss would be low on money for reinforcements. Very common cheeses for protoss to do were 2base carrier and arbiter builds that delayed the 3rd or trigger for terran to attack and then doom drop the terrans main or use carriers to push the goliath low army back or even out right destroy it.
On December 17 2010 22:30 RaraOoLala wrote: cheese
Admins, why isn't this guy temp banned/warned?
Anyway, back to topic, do you guys think that having one raven or two with the viking/banshee composition be better than using scans? Imagine the amount minerals saved which can be use for MM re-macroing.
Because going 4starport banshee off 2 bases while viable is still kinda cheesy. wiki.teamliquid says: "Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies on large parts on secrecy and/or psychological impact on the opponent.
Players use cheese to force a more unbalanced game. The unbalanced nature of cheese usually serve to make decision making on the defending side more fatal. Thus, the cheesing player is given a chance to come back from an otherwise lost game or the possibility to outwit a stronger opponent. A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack.
A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage."
It even says in the guide that after you get your raven out you need to shut down the obs and effectively the protoss opponents scouting methods. If the protoss scouts 4starport banshee hes going to go 2starport phenoix and start cranking out obs to detect. With the marines getting wiped out easily from splash damage the thing that makes this build work is that the protoss wont expect or be able to scout the number of banshees you have. I agree with Rara while this build is very strong and well thought out its strength still relies on the protoss not to scout it which would make it a cheese. And yes a cheese can happen in the late game. Remember TvP in SC BW? The terran would build up an army and secure 3bases with a small amount of siege tanks vultures and goliaths and attack the protoss when they took a 3rd base to do the most damage because the protoss would be low on money for reinforcements. Very common cheeses for protoss to do were 2base carrier and arbiter builds that delayed the 3rd or trigger for terran to attack and then doom drop the terrans main or use carriers to push the goliath low army back or even out right destroy it.
Denying scouting =\= cheese. I don't know how you interpreted that, but this is not cheese. Sure, I play a few psychological mind games, but the build macro-oriented with a goal to play Terran air vs Protoss, which I firmly believe is the only way to beat a Protoss in the late game. I never cut SCVs, I expand while attacking. It's not cheese, but merely a new way to play the matchup. MMMG vs Robogate is considered standard, so does that mean anything not within that context is considered cheese?
Sure, I completely agree that cheese can happen in the late game, but I'm getting my tech in a timely and efficient manner, rather than rushing straight to BCs or something. It's macro-oriented. It's like if a Protoss decided to go mass Void Rays while faking a Robo Bay to the Terran....it's just a nice twist on the game to put things into your advantage. Not cheese
Anyways, if I get scouted, I can still execute this build just fine. Banshees are powerful even if scouted, it's impossible to hide tech forever. That's how to game works.
On December 19 2010 06:26 heyyouyesyou wrote: Its not that your trying to deny scouting that would make your build cheesy its that if the protoss can scout it the effectiveness reduces greatly.
As with any build. If I scout 3 Gate Robo, I can prep for a Gateway push with Immortals while teching to Vikings to deal with the impending Colossi. That greatly reduces the effectiveness of the push, as I know what to expect. Does that mean 3 Gate Robo is cheesy? Hell no!
How about scanning a Zerg and seeing a Spire, so I make turrets and a Thor to deal with that. Muta = Cheese? Hell no! Are the Mutas gonna do damage? Most likely not.
Same for this build. If they scout this, they need to react appropriately or die. The nice thing about this build is the timing window to prepare for the push is small, so I can almost always get away with pulling this off after killing the first obs. Not cheese ^_^
I've read everything up to this point, and I like the idea of adding in a Thor or two. From watching your reps and the B.O., my thoughts are to get your raven building, hold off on cloak research until after you drop an armory and tech lab the factory. When you get to the point where you'd normally drop 3 more Ports, just make it 2 additional seeing as the Thor's will cost twice the gas as a banshee. The end push would look something more like 40-50 marines, 2 Thor, and 5-6 banshees, and should hit at pretty close to the same time.
Haven't implemented the Thor's yet into my own play, but it basically looks and acts like the mid to late-game Thor/Banshee/Marine closer a good number of Terrans are using against Zerg. Any thoughts or personal experiences in trying the idea?
You'd barely be able to sustain 3 ports and 1 factor but its doable if you delay or skip cloak. If you could get both Stim and shield, you'd be pretty set. I would also look into getting +1 air weapons if you want to flip over to BC construction after the push.
On December 17 2010 11:25 Liquid_Adun wrote: The shift in popularity of the Templar may cause this build to be less effective, in addition to this we have phoinexs being more practical because they take a lot less time to build. The design of the build is nice but its becoming alot more risky. Not to mention the usefulness of feedback. At any rate ill give it a go and see how to works. Rather ill get my practice partner to use it so i can play against it.
Thanks for the nice build, Adun
I don't think feedbacks would hit enough banshees. Sure you would get like 2 or 3 from what I've experienced, but the rest will cloak and if the terran is good enough they will cloak even faster. You can't feedback cloaked units thats the problem :S. Once their cloaked, if the templars waste energy on feedback, they wont be as cost effective if they were using storm.
User was temp banned for this post.
I'm at a loss to why this deserves a temp ban o.O
On December 23 2010 13:05 Doz wrote: I've read everything up to this point, and I like the idea of adding in a Thor or two. From watching your reps and the B.O., my thoughts are to get your raven building, hold off on cloak research until after you drop an armory and tech lab the factory. When you get to the point where you'd normally drop 3 more Ports, just make it 2 additional seeing as the Thor's will cost twice the gas as a banshee. The end push would look something more like 40-50 marines, 2 Thor, and 5-6 banshees, and should hit at pretty close to the same time.
Haven't implemented the Thor's yet into my own play, but it basically looks and acts like the mid to late-game Thor/Banshee/Marine closer a good number of Terrans are using against Zerg. Any thoughts or personal experiences in trying the idea?
I haven't actually used Thor yet, just because I keep forgetting >_> But from my personal experience playing the build, I do have a lot of gas banked up before I start Banshee production, so I think I could afford two Thors before I have to cut units for more. Two is really all you need to take care of phoenixs and help tank damage, and should be very afforable. I'll post a replay as soon as I remember to do this xD.
On December 24 2010 07:31 Antisocialmunky wrote: You'd barely be able to sustain 3 ports and 1 factor but its doable if you delay or skip cloak. If you could get both Stim and shield, you'd be pretty set. I would also look into getting +1 air weapons if you want to flip over to BC construction after the push.
I wouldn't consistently pump out Thors, just so that I have two at any given time. I always get a Stim and Shields and I've never noticed an overinvestment at all. It's once I start pumping mass upgrades while getting banshees that I notice I have a shortage of gas on two base....I need to expand faster.
And for BCs, I actually prefer +1 armor, since BCs make such beastly tanks against everything, bring a few SCVs to repair em and you've got yourself a force to be reckoned with.
After using the opening expansions and doing variations of the build, I found that the build isn't safe enough (at least on the maps I play, I choose to play xelnaga caverns and delta quad, because I find backdoor rocks to be more of a problem than a non wall-in-able front with this build), and sacrificing early economy for some safety is worth it, because your economy will be crazy after it gets started up.
What I do now is 1 rax, cc, bunker, gas, 1 rax, 2 more bunkers, ebay, rax, then tech up, the gas on the expansions need to be taken earlier, and turret should be put between / a little ahead of 2 of the bunkers as soon as ebay is up.
This, although some what less, of a clean way to spend money and gets your tech up later, gets your bunkers filled up faster against 4gate (although your build already beats 4 gate rushes), gets you more marines against blink stalkers, and the turret helps against fast dt's and 3gate void ray rushes a lot, which are strategies that have beaten me before.
On December 28 2010 12:56 Blyadischa wrote: After using the opening expansions and doing variations of the build, I found that the build isn't safe enough (at least on the maps I play, I choose to play xelnaga caverns and delta quad, because I find backdoor rocks to be more of a problem than a non wall-in-able front with this build), and sacrificing early economy for some safety is worth it, because your economy will be crazy after it gets started up.
What I do now is 1 rax, cc, bunker, gas, 1 rax, 2 more bunkers, ebay, rax, then tech up, the gas on the expansions need to be taken earlier, and turret should be put between / a little ahead of 2 of the bunkers as soon as ebay is up.
This, although some what less, of a clean way to spend money and gets your tech up later, gets your bunkers filled up faster against 4gate (although your build already beats 4 gate rushes), gets you more marines against blink stalkers, and the turret helps against fast dt's and 3gate void ray rushes a lot, which are strategies that have beaten me before.
That works just fine I do a similar variation now where I go a quick 2 Rax with Tech+Reactor and do a 2Rax Stim Timing push with about 4 Marines + 4 Marauders while expanding behind that. I cut the bunkers unless I see they are going a 4 Gate or 3 Gate Robo push. This push can do a lot of damage and put you in a great position to transition to Banshee tech when they expect mass Bio and get Colossi. The risk is that if your push is held off without many losses, it leaves you open for a counter attack. I only use this build on maps with open naturals anyways....I have no problem holding off back door attacks ^_^
Thanks for shining the light again on 1 rax expand vs toss into both an early bio defence or 4port banshees. I was having a bit of trouble doing 1 base tech builds against toss but this seems to be very safe macro build since very few toss I've encountered are hitting me with anything substantial between the 5.00-6.45mark, and bunkers are ready for the 4wg timing in anycase.
On January 02 2011 14:04 iAmJeffReY wrote: The new problem with toss is is it going to be a 3 gate robo push, a 2 gate robo expo, 1 gate expo, 4 gate, 3 gate VR (BIG TROUBLEEE!!!)
So many opens to choose from, and each one requires different unit set / aggression cycle, and they can hide so well >_<
I'm tired of losing to straight DT tech because I'm skurrred to run up the ramp due to sentries!
You should know better than to not post reps when asking for help :D
I'm actually curious to see the 3 gate void ray, I saw the 2 gate star gate about 2 months ago and got rolled by it.
On December 28 2010 12:56 Blyadischa wrote: After using the opening expansions and doing variations of the build, I found that the build isn't safe enough (at least on the maps I play, I choose to play xelnaga caverns and delta quad, because I find backdoor rocks to be more of a problem than a non wall-in-able front with this build), and sacrificing early economy for some safety is worth it, because your economy will be crazy after it gets started up.
What I do now is 1 rax, cc, bunker, gas, 1 rax, 2 more bunkers, ebay, rax, then tech up, the gas on the expansions need to be taken earlier, and turret should be put between / a little ahead of 2 of the bunkers as soon as ebay is up.
This, although some what less, of a clean way to spend money and gets your tech up later, gets your bunkers filled up faster against 4gate (although your build already beats 4 gate rushes), gets you more marines against blink stalkers, and the turret helps against fast dt's and 3gate void ray rushes a lot, which are strategies that have beaten me before.
That works just fine I do a similar variation now where I go a quick 2 Rax with Tech+Reactor and do a 2Rax Stim Timing push with about 4 Marines + 4 Marauders while expanding behind that. I cut the bunkers unless I see they are going a 4 Gate or 3 Gate Robo push. This push can do a lot of damage and put you in a great position to transition to Banshee tech when they expect mass Bio and get Colossi. The risk is that if your push is held off without many losses, it leaves you open for a counter attack. I only use this build on maps with open naturals anyways....I have no problem holding off back door attacks ^_^
Good luck!
I was just thinking about trying that 2rax techlab/reactor push into expand into 4port banshee/marine since it combines a) early pressure with a decent chance to win the game right there (esp. on lower levels) b) banshee play which i just love vs toss (doing this off one base a lot) c) economic play without being too allin like when I do a big banshee push off one base. d) more safety against early toss pressure compared to only marines
i'm only high plat/low diamond level, so maybe you could help me out and post a brief build order for this style of play. i certainly dont need the exact food numbers, but it would help me a lot to know when to do the first push, when to build the fact und in which way i should get up the starports (all at once, one by one, etc) , when to take second/3rd/4th gas etc.etc. i guess a replay would do it for me, but I certainly appreciate any tip I can get :-) thx in advance
On December 19 2010 06:26 heyyouyesyou wrote: Its not that your trying to deny scouting that would make your build cheesy its that if the protoss can scout it the effectiveness reduces greatly.
As with any build. If I scout 3 Gate Robo, I can prep for a Gateway push with Immortals while teching to Vikings to deal with the impending Colossi. That greatly reduces the effectiveness of the push, as I know what to expect. Does that mean 3 Gate Robo is cheesy? Hell no!
How about scanning a Zerg and seeing a Spire, so I make turrets and a Thor to deal with that. Muta = Cheese? Hell no! Are the Mutas gonna do damage? Most likely not.
Same for this build. If they scout this, they need to react appropriately or die. The nice thing about this build is the timing window to prepare for the push is small, so I can almost always get away with pulling this off after killing the first obs. Not cheese ^_^
What i like to do is multiprong Banshee harass as i build up my Banshee count which effectively prevents them from making collosi.
I've effectively gotten this build to beat 4 Gate and 3 Gate Robo pushes consistently now. It's a very simple change at the start.
10 Depot 12 Barracks 15 Orbital 15 Barracks 16 Depot 23 CC
This allows you double the marine production at the start to quickly fill those first three bunkers you make right after your two geysers finish. You need to have at least 9 SCVs mining at your natural during this so that you can quickly pull them off to repair once the attack starts. Take advantage of ledges and such with your unbunkered marines to defend better. After the bunkers are up, it's up to your personal scouting and judgment to decide whether you should tech or add another rax + addons. Either way, your goal should be to build up to 4 Starports, pump banshees, and expand with a Fusion Core when you push out with X amount of banshees + marines. 3 base Battlecruiser after Banshees is ridiculously hard for a Protoss to stop.
Banshee is a pretty good counter to colossus, they also have cloak. So you have so many options and you are free to harass and get your econ up. Me being a protoss player back in the beta I figured out the hard way banshee were no joke =/
So I suppose the question is: how much harder does the Phoenix buff make this to pull off?
Edit: I just watched the BC game. It strikes me, if you are on three base, you can do 2 BC and 2 Banshee constant production with marines underneath. You can then micro the banshees behind the BC if they get targeted so the BCs take the hits instead. I've noticed that pure BC + Banshee DPS support seems to work much better than BCs by themselves or banshees late game by themselves.
In addition, you could save yourself some money and diversify your army if you cranked hellions out of the factory instead of getting an additional barracks. You have plenty of marines for AA and their ability to tank stalker fire and kite-roast slowlot conga lines cannot be under estimated.
On January 10 2011 13:29 Synystyr wrote: I've effectively gotten this build to beat 4 Gate and 3 Gate Robo pushes consistently now. It's a very simple change at the start.
10 Depot 12 Barracks 15 Orbital 15 Barracks 16 Depot 23 CC
This allows you double the marine production at the start to quickly fill those first three bunkers you make right after your two geysers finish. You need to have at least 9 SCVs mining at your natural during this so that you can quickly pull them off to repair once the attack starts. Take advantage of ledges and such with your unbunkered marines to defend better. After the bunkers are up, it's up to your personal scouting and judgment to decide whether you should tech or add another rax + addons. Either way, your goal should be to build up to 4 Starports, pump banshees, and expand with a Fusion Core when you push out with X amount of banshees + marines. 3 base Battlecruiser after Banshees is ridiculously hard for a Protoss to stop.
2 Base 4 Port Banshee into 3 Base BC against Phoenix Chargelot HT on GSL Tal'darim Altar
P.S. The new GSL map considerations are awesome. Try them out!
Have you tried a Reactor fast expand? The CC goes up about the same time, you only have 2 marines less midgame and you wont tip the Toss off with your lack of gas. It's what I do when I go for mass air at least.
I've been trying a very similar build. Just tried it one game though, just for fun.
2rax expand (tech/reactor) into double port banshee(also raven, for sure). This build works great. Don't mind the fact that I forgot siege mode the entire game btw. The banshees were just there not to be really part of my army, but more to do a LOT of harras because that is what I personally favor. Besides, he went high templars anyway so i just didnt make as much banshees anymore. Only made a few to kill tons of probes + any templars around.
Anyway, there's a ton of ways to do banshee builds so you can incorporate them into your army. I remember watching a Jinro vs TTOne match from MLG where jinro did a nice timing push with like 4 banshees, 4 vikings, 2 medics and a huge bio army(at 14 min, around 150 supply) that completely raped ttone. It was on Metalopolis close air position.
p.s. with the build you're doing I definitely think you're super viable to 3gate void ray, which a lot of top protosses have been doing recently. (or 2gate stargate expand)
ah, this sounds pretty interesting, i'll give it a try sometime.
synystyr, have you tried having one or two vikings in there as well? since observers tend to lag behind moving toss armies, it might be easier to flank and snipe the observer that way, which gives your banshees free reign (and can probably keep your marine force intac for a counterpush)
On January 10 2011 13:29 Synystyr wrote: I've effectively gotten this build to beat 4 Gate and 3 Gate Robo pushes consistently now. It's a very simple change at the start.
10 Depot 12 Barracks 15 Orbital 15 Barracks 16 Depot 23 CC
This allows you double the marine production at the start to quickly fill those first three bunkers you make right after your two geysers finish. You need to have at least 9 SCVs mining at your natural during this so that you can quickly pull them off to repair once the attack starts. Take advantage of ledges and such with your unbunkered marines to defend better. After the bunkers are up, it's up to your personal scouting and judgment to decide whether you should tech or add another rax + addons. Either way, your goal should be to build up to 4 Starports, pump banshees, and expand with a Fusion Core when you push out with X amount of banshees + marines. 3 base Battlecruiser after Banshees is ridiculously hard for a Protoss to stop.
2 Base 4 Port Banshee into 3 Base BC against Phoenix Chargelot HT on GSL Tal'darim Altar
P.S. The new GSL map considerations are awesome. Try them out!
Have you tried a Reactor fast expand? The CC goes up about the same time, you only have 2 marines less midgame and you wont tip the Toss off with your lack of gas. It's what I do when I go for mass air at least.
I don't like a reactor first just because I lose a few marines in the early game because of it, and if they 4 Gate, I need every marine I can get. I also don't mind them scouting the no-gas. I puts pressure on them to either attack me or expand, and honestly both favor me. Expand allows to me to tech safely while an early attack is easily repelled by bunkers + scvs + marines.
On January 12 2011 03:39 n3mo wrote: ah, this sounds pretty interesting, i'll give it a try sometime.
synystyr, have you tried having one or two vikings in there as well? since observers tend to lag behind moving toss armies, it might be easier to flank and snipe the observer that way, which gives your banshees free reign (and can probably keep your marine force intac for a counterpush)
Adding a couple vikings does snipe the obs well, but it cuts into banshees a lot more than you'd think...I prefer controlling my marines to kill them. It's more of a preference thing. I'd rather just have a lot more banshees just in case they snipe my vikings quickly.
very fun. I got idea from someone to play it out like human vs ud in wc3(except sc2 works out better because enemy can't clear out all the creeps to get ahead) just spam bunker/pf/turrets and there isn't much toss can do until you get bc. tvp with little to no effort at all.
yea the early game vunerability seems way to high. I guess if you have great micro and know 100% what to do against 4 gate pressure that you will be ok. But the current TvP meta seems to be going more towards the 1 Rax FE, espececially on big maps. But as a Random i gotta say that chargelots will you break down the bunkers lol.
On January 15 2011 03:50 Ponyo wrote: yea the early game vunerability seems way to high. I guess if you have great micro and know 100% what to do against 4 gate pressure that you will be ok. But the current TvP meta seems to be going more towards the 1 Rax FE, espececially on big maps. But as a Random i gotta say that chargelots will you break down the bunkers lol.
Knowing what to do is obviously key to the build....like it is in every aspect of the game ~_~
4 Gate is extremely easy to scout, or at least early pressure is. Simply check CBs with your scouting SCV. Lotsa energy means an early push, so you're prepared mentally for it. The build order is sound enough that you don't have to change it to deal with a 4 gate. You have three bunkers filled with marines + a few spare when a 4 gate arrives. Simply have 9-10 SCVs at your nat on a control group with auto repair on and pull them off as soon as you see the attack. Simple.
And chargelots? Like a chargelot rush? or mid game ones. Because chargelot rush loses to just about every other opener. 2 port banshee or even 1 port banshee wins against it....mid game you'll have banshees as well.....chargelots are not a threat =S
Massed 8 banshees, 1 raven and a ton of marines - sniped an observer, scanned his army at the natural - didn't see another observer so pushed in ftw against heavy stalker with some zealots and sentries. Cleaned up his base with 7 banshees, a handful of marines and the Raven. The PDD is priceless.
My variation does not use a reactor - 2 rax FE with no gas into 5 barracks - 4 naked 1 tech lab for combat shields.
Question is where to put 3 bunkers for each map? Some are obvious where there is a second ramp (steppes, plateau) or choke (lost temple, blistering sands) I was on Metalopolis and just stuck them right beside the CC, thankfully nothing more than a poke came in.
On January 15 2011 14:43 falcoiii wrote: Just tried this build on the ladder - it rocks.
Massed 8 banshees, 1 raven and a ton of marines - sniped an observer, scanned his army at the natural - didn't see another observer so pushed in ftw against heavy stalker with some zealots and sentries. Cleaned up his base with 7 banshees, a handful of marines and the Raven. The PDD is priceless.
My variation does not use a reactor - 2 rax FE with no gas into 5 barracks - 4 naked 1 tech lab for combat shields.
Question is where to put 3 bunkers for each map? Some are obvious where there is a second ramp (steppes, plateau) or choke (lost temple, blistering sands) I was on Metalopolis and just stuck them right beside the CC, thankfully nothing more than a poke came in.
On maps where where you don't have a closed off natural, such as Metal or Xel'naga, I don't go with the bunkers. Instead, I go for a quick stim timing push with about 4 marines and 4 marauders and try and do some early damage. It's much riskier and a little more difficult to pull off, but if you manage to do a little damage and not lose your raiding party, they'll be preparing for a mass bio transition and go robo. That's when you can tech to starport and catch them with their pants down ^.-
If you feel you must bunker up on those wide maps, then keep them close to CC to protect the mineral lines.
As a protoss player, this build is really hard to beat...very micro intensive on the Protoss end but Chargelots/Phoenixes do counter this a bit...best advice is to refuse scouting (observer) and you should be fine
A quick update....the best way to open with this build is no longer a 1 Rax FE, but a 2 Rax FE with bunkers, simply because dealing with strong, early pressure is too difficult to deal with when you only have one Barracks pumping marines out. Thank you to everyone who pointed this out.
A bunker opener like this works wonders in the early game and lets you tech into an extremely powerful midgame with the best lategame option for Terran vs Protoss.
After playing and winning the Giantbomb Community Tournament, I decided this thread really needed to be brought up to current times.
I just updated the ENTIRE OP with a whole new perspective on this build. The build is 3x more solid than it used to be, I've added a ton of new replays and revamped the entire build order. Please leave feedback on what you think of the changes!
On February 02 2011 11:45 micjmac wrote: Have you had success with this build against people who know it is coming ahead of time (Ex. practice partners)?
Yep, I've had a few practice partners go fast phoenix to try and stop the initial banshee push but the two thors really make a big difference against them. I won Giantbomb using this build almost exclusively, so everyone knew about it by the end but still couldn't hold the push off. Watch the live cast in the Replay section from JP McDaniel.
Seems like there are starting to be more and more banshee heavy builds sprouting up! I hope people are starting to see that Sky Terran is the way to go in this MU in terms of a solid mid game push without being worried about the massive AoE deathtrap that is the Protoss late game.
My questions are...
How do you guys think my build compares with others now? Is this still viable? Are Protoss catching on? Is it better to be focused heavily on harass, or to do a huge timing push?
As a light unit, the banshee only takes 10 damage per shot from the stalker, which allows the banshee to take 14 hits before dying to one stalker, whereas it only takes a banshee 7 shots to kill a banshee. In a one-on-one encounter, the banshee flies away with half its health left. Unmicroed, A Protoss would need twice as many stalkers as there are banshees to win an encounter. Very reasonable for a Protoss, as mass banshee is not part of the current PvT metagame, and stalkers are very easily spammable. But when faced with 8-10 banshees 12 minutes into a game, this changes up VERY quickly!
As a light unit, the banshee only takes 10 damage per shot from the stalker, which allows the banshee to take 14 hits before dying to one stalker, whereas it only takes a banshee 7 shots to kill a banshee. In a one-on-one encounter, the banshee flies away with half its health left. Unmicroed, A Protoss would need twice as many stalkers as there are banshees to win an encounter. Very reasonable for a Protoss, as mass banshee is not part of the current PvT metagame, and stalkers are very easily spammable. But when faced with 8-10 banshees 12 minutes into a game, this changes up VERY quickly!
A small error that you can fix. ^_^
Ahah! Good catch Fixed, you miss these kinds of little things after typing so much xD Thanks a lot!
Ummmm yeah.... i know i said a couple pages back that i did not think this would work. I'm definitely a believer now. The only way i was able to come even against this was to go 2base robo with two stargates making phoenixes and VRs along with colossi and zealots for the marines. Hallucinate is also something i discovered to be helpful, you need hallucinated phoenixes to confirm what is actually happening because observers simply will not do when ravens are out, and going blind double stargate is bad against almost everything else. Basically if you do this and P went some sort of double robo or heavy gateway units with colossi he is royally screwed.
On February 07 2011 01:53 Gecko wrote: Ummmm yeah.... i know i said a couple pages back that i did not think this would work. I'm definitely a believer now. The only way i was able to come even against this was to go 2base robo with two stargates making phoenixes and VRs along with colossi and zealots for the marines. Hallucinate is also something i discovered to be helpful, you need hallucinated phoenixes to confirm what is actually happening because observers simply will not do when ravens are out, and going blind double stargate is bad against almost everything else. Basically if you do this and P went some sort of double robo or heavy gateway units with colossi he is royally screwed.
^.-
Protoss should emulate oGsMC in his play style if they want to deal with this. If you watched GSL3, he never ever opened with colossus first, but opted for stargate, blink or templar play very quickly and his win/loss ratio vs Terran was incredible. Against a player like MC, I don't know how well this build would fare....it's nearly impossible to lose against any kind of robo first play, but against a smarter player, I'd like to find out.
On February 07 2011 01:53 Gecko wrote: Ummmm yeah.... i know i said a couple pages back that i did not think this would work. I'm definitely a believer now. The only way i was able to come even against this was to go 2base robo with two stargates making phoenixes and VRs along with colossi and zealots for the marines. Hallucinate is also something i discovered to be helpful, you need hallucinated phoenixes to confirm what is actually happening because observers simply will not do when ravens are out, and going blind double stargate is bad against almost everything else. Basically if you do this and P went some sort of double robo or heavy gateway units with colossi he is royally screwed.
^.-
Protoss should emulate oGsMC in his play style if they want to deal with this. If you watched GSL3, he never ever opened with colossus first, but opted for stargate, blink or templar play very quickly and his win/loss ratio vs Terran was incredible. Against a player like MC, I don't know how well this build would fare....it's nearly impossible to lose against any kind of robo first play, but against a smarter player, I'd like to find out.
Can't wait to see pros use air more
I played three games against your build with a practice partner. I always opened with a 2gate robo build. The first one i made no air and i suffered an embarrassing loss, enough to make me rage at a good friend hehehe... The second game i made one stargate and it did good against the banshees but some clutch cruisers sealed the game for my opponent.
The third game was the best, i had begun researching hallucination whenever the raven appeared so i could continue scouting and confirm the 4port. I had formulated a decent response, I basically did a normal expand and get colossi style. I would have 4 warpgates and a robotics as my base, and then when i saw the mass air transition i added two stargates (if its normal bio i normally only add one). Then i made a shit-ton of phoenixes and VRs to support my colossi.
My mass of zealots and colossi were devastating to the marines and thors, and the phoenixes ate banshees like they were nothing. VRs are just awesome against battlecruisers and Thors. Then i switched to Carriers instead of mass VRs and died to the battlecruisers like a retard.
Still, this build is tough but with some work i can beat it or at least make out even. I think it is an interesting alternative to Bio and people will win a lot of games with it before protoss have the timings down. also hallucination like i said is amazing, chrono boost lets you get it out fast enough to react to a raven trying to deny observer scouting.
EDIT: TLDR i guess what i am trying to say is that the way protoss are playing this is beatable with a little practice.
On February 07 2011 01:53 Gecko wrote: Ummmm yeah.... i know i said a couple pages back that i did not think this would work. I'm definitely a believer now. The only way i was able to come even against this was to go 2base robo with two stargates making phoenixes and VRs along with colossi and zealots for the marines. Hallucinate is also something i discovered to be helpful, you need hallucinated phoenixes to confirm what is actually happening because observers simply will not do when ravens are out, and going blind double stargate is bad against almost everything else. Basically if you do this and P went some sort of double robo or heavy gateway units with colossi he is royally screwed.
^.-
Protoss should emulate oGsMC in his play style if they want to deal with this. If you watched GSL3, he never ever opened with colossus first, but opted for stargate, blink or templar play very quickly and his win/loss ratio vs Terran was incredible. Against a player like MC, I don't know how well this build would fare....it's nearly impossible to lose against any kind of robo first play, but against a smarter player, I'd like to find out.
Can't wait to see pros use air more
I played three games against your build with a practice partner. I always opened with a 2gate robo build. The first one i made no air and i suffered an embarrassing loss, enough to make me rage at a good friend hehehe... The second game i made one stargate and it did good against the banshees but some clutch cruisers sealed the game for my opponent.
The third game was the best, i had begun researching hallucination whenever the raven appeared so i could continue scouting and confirm the 4port. I had formulated a decent response, I basically did a normal expand and get colossi style. I would have 4 warpgates and a robotics as my base, and then when i saw the mass air transition i added two stargates (if its normal bio i normally only add one). Then i made a shit-ton of phoenixes and VRs to support my colossi.
My mass of zealots and colossi were devastating to the marines and thors, and the phoenixes ate banshees like they were nothing. VRs are just awesome against battlecruisers and Thors. Then i switched to Carriers instead of mass VRs and died to the battlecruisers like a retard.
Still, this build is tough but with some work i can beat it or at least make out even. I think it is an interesting alternative to Bio and people will win a lot of games with it before protoss have the timings down. also hallucination like i said is amazing, chrono boost lets you get it out fast enough to react to a raven trying to deny observer scouting.
EDIT: TLDR i guess what i am trying to say is that the way protoss are playing this is beatable with a little practice.
Wow, sounds like some really solid games! I like how it sounds Would it be possible to attach those replays to a post? I'd really love to take a look at them and see what went down!
I was actually very worried about the latest patch and how it would effect this build. Faster phoenix + hallucination research time makes for more solid scout via hallu Phoenix, and then being able to crank out an insane amount of phoenixs out after the build has been scouted in the window before the attack. Luckily, I've yet to play someone who's used hallucination to scout me, but I'm sure it'll happen eventually!
Mass air for Toss is the answer to this, with VRs killing BCs and Thors incredibly fast, while Phoenix chew up the Banshees. Toss in a decent number of chargelots and your marines are sliced like butter. Upgrades really help however and Yamato on VRs + adding a few vikings will make things much easier on the Terran's side.
On February 07 2011 01:53 Gecko wrote: Ummmm yeah.... i know i said a couple pages back that i did not think this would work. I'm definitely a believer now. The only way i was able to come even against this was to go 2base robo with two stargates making phoenixes and VRs along with colossi and zealots for the marines. Hallucinate is also something i discovered to be helpful, you need hallucinated phoenixes to confirm what is actually happening because observers simply will not do when ravens are out, and going blind double stargate is bad against almost everything else. Basically if you do this and P went some sort of double robo or heavy gateway units with colossi he is royally screwed.
^.-
Protoss should emulate oGsMC in his play style if they want to deal with this. If you watched GSL3, he never ever opened with colossus first, but opted for stargate, blink or templar play very quickly and his win/loss ratio vs Terran was incredible. Against a player like MC, I don't know how well this build would fare....it's nearly impossible to lose against any kind of robo first play, but against a smarter player, I'd like to find out.
Can't wait to see pros use air more
I played three games against your build with a practice partner. I always opened with a 2gate robo build. The first one i made no air and i suffered an embarrassing loss, enough to make me rage at a good friend hehehe... The second game i made one stargate and it did good against the banshees but some clutch cruisers sealed the game for my opponent.
The third game was the best, i had begun researching hallucination whenever the raven appeared so i could continue scouting and confirm the 4port. I had formulated a decent response, I basically did a normal expand and get colossi style. I would have 4 warpgates and a robotics as my base, and then when i saw the mass air transition i added two stargates (if its normal bio i normally only add one). Then i made a shit-ton of phoenixes and VRs to support my colossi.
My mass of zealots and colossi were devastating to the marines and thors, and the phoenixes ate banshees like they were nothing. VRs are just awesome against battlecruisers and Thors. Then i switched to Carriers instead of mass VRs and died to the battlecruisers like a retard.
Still, this build is tough but with some work i can beat it or at least make out even. I think it is an interesting alternative to Bio and people will win a lot of games with it before protoss have the timings down. also hallucination like i said is amazing, chrono boost lets you get it out fast enough to react to a raven trying to deny observer scouting.
EDIT: TLDR i guess what i am trying to say is that the way protoss are playing this is beatable with a little practice.
Wow, sounds like some really solid games! I like how it sounds Would it be possible to attach those replays to a post? I'd really love to take a look at them and see what went down!
I was actually very worried about the latest patch and how it would effect this build. Faster phoenix + hallucination research time makes for more solid scout via hallu Phoenix, and then being able to crank out an insane amount of phoenixs out after the build has been scouted in the window before the attack. Luckily, I've yet to play someone who's used hallucination to scout me, but I'm sure it'll happen eventually!
Mass air for Toss is the answer to this, with VRs killing BCs and Thors incredibly fast, while Phoenix chew up the Banshees. Toss in a decent number of chargelots and your marines are sliced like butter. Upgrades really help however and Yamato on VRs + adding a few vikings will make things much easier on the Terran's side.
I did not save all the replays but here is one of the better ones that were saved. Basically this game demonstrates how anything not called a VR will lose to yamato cannon BCs. Stalker/templar sounds good but it just blows if the BC count gets huge, later games showed that going air only and supplementing your existing phoenixes with 5 or 6 stargates pumping VRs works way better.
This also does demonstrate how phoenix/colossus is a viable midgame plan against this but like i said, when you see the BCs you need to begin adding void rays. I lost this game but it shows some good points.
The key thing for Protoss in beating this build is that although this build is technically an anti-colossus build, you should still build Colossus. You just need to throw in some phoenixes as well. The Colossi will live long enough to kill most of the marines which leaves your stalkers and Phoenix/Void Rays alive to clean up banshees.
On February 07 2011 13:43 Dhalphir wrote: The key thing for Protoss in beating this build is that although this build is technically an anti-colossus build, you should still build Colossus. You just need to throw in some phoenixes as well. The Colossi will live long enough to kill most of the marines which leaves your stalkers and Phoenix/Void Rays alive to clean up banshees.
Even bringing your phoenixs away from the thors until the thors are dead is a pretty good way to beat the main push for this.
On February 07 2011 01:53 Gecko wrote: Ummmm yeah.... i know i said a couple pages back that i did not think this would work. I'm definitely a believer now. The only way i was able to come even against this was to go 2base robo with two stargates making phoenixes and VRs along with colossi and zealots for the marines. Hallucinate is also something i discovered to be helpful, you need hallucinated phoenixes to confirm what is actually happening because observers simply will not do when ravens are out, and going blind double stargate is bad against almost everything else. Basically if you do this and P went some sort of double robo or heavy gateway units with colossi he is royally screwed.
^.-
Protoss should emulate oGsMC in his play style if they want to deal with this. If you watched GSL3, he never ever opened with colossus first, but opted for stargate, blink or templar play very quickly and his win/loss ratio vs Terran was incredible. Against a player like MC, I don't know how well this build would fare....it's nearly impossible to lose against any kind of robo first play, but against a smarter player, I'd like to find out.
Can't wait to see pros use air more
I played three games against your build with a practice partner. I always opened with a 2gate robo build. The first one i made no air and i suffered an embarrassing loss, enough to make me rage at a good friend hehehe... The second game i made one stargate and it did good against the banshees but some clutch cruisers sealed the game for my opponent.
The third game was the best, i had begun researching hallucination whenever the raven appeared so i could continue scouting and confirm the 4port. I had formulated a decent response, I basically did a normal expand and get colossi style. I would have 4 warpgates and a robotics as my base, and then when i saw the mass air transition i added two stargates (if its normal bio i normally only add one). Then i made a shit-ton of phoenixes and VRs to support my colossi.
My mass of zealots and colossi were devastating to the marines and thors, and the phoenixes ate banshees like they were nothing. VRs are just awesome against battlecruisers and Thors. Then i switched to Carriers instead of mass VRs and died to the battlecruisers like a retard.
Still, this build is tough but with some work i can beat it or at least make out even. I think it is an interesting alternative to Bio and people will win a lot of games with it before protoss have the timings down. also hallucination like i said is amazing, chrono boost lets you get it out fast enough to react to a raven trying to deny observer scouting.
EDIT: TLDR i guess what i am trying to say is that the way protoss are playing this is beatable with a little practice.
Wow, sounds like some really solid games! I like how it sounds Would it be possible to attach those replays to a post? I'd really love to take a look at them and see what went down!
I was actually very worried about the latest patch and how it would effect this build. Faster phoenix + hallucination research time makes for more solid scout via hallu Phoenix, and then being able to crank out an insane amount of phoenixs out after the build has been scouted in the window before the attack. Luckily, I've yet to play someone who's used hallucination to scout me, but I'm sure it'll happen eventually!
Mass air for Toss is the answer to this, with VRs killing BCs and Thors incredibly fast, while Phoenix chew up the Banshees. Toss in a decent number of chargelots and your marines are sliced like butter. Upgrades really help however and Yamato on VRs + adding a few vikings will make things much easier on the Terran's side.
I did not save all the replays but here is one of the better ones that were saved. Basically this game demonstrates how anything not called a VR will lose to yamato cannon BCs. Stalker/templar sounds good but it just blows if the BC count gets huge, later games showed that going air only and supplementing your existing phoenixes with 5 or 6 stargates pumping VRs works way better.
This also does demonstrate how phoenix/colossus is a viable midgame plan against this but like i said, when you see the BCs you need to begin adding void rays. I lost this game but it shows some good points.
[url blocked]
Thanks a whole bunch! I'll definitely indulge in this after I get out of work :D If you happen to play any more good games against this build, I'm always open to recieving and viewing more replays!
On February 07 2011 13:41 Darpa wrote: Looks like a fair precarious opener into a really strong midgame. I like it. Gonna give it a shot (2700) and ill post back.
Feel free to also post any replays you might want to show or ask any questions if you have any! I love feedback and I'll help you as best I can if you need it
On February 07 2011 13:50 Talack wrote: The key thing for Protoss in beating this build is that although this build is technically an anti-colossus build, you should still build Colossus. You just need to throw in some phoenixes as well. The Colossi will live long enough to kill most of the marines which leaves your stalkers and Phoenix/Void Rays alive to clean up banshees.
On February 07 2011 13:43 Dhalphir wrote: Even bringing your phoenixs away from the thors until the thors are dead is a pretty good way to beat the main push for this.
You're both correct. However instead of Colossi, I believe that chargelots fit the role of Bio-Killers better. They also do very well versus thors, and then you can come in with your phoenix to clean up. Good scouting on the Protoss is needed to be able to get the perfect unit composition out in the small timing window you have, while the Terran needs to be dilligent about denying scouting and sniping as many observers as possible to give your banshees free reign.
If you are going to be adding thors into your unit composition you definitely need to cut out a starport. The gas from thors and 4starports needs 3 bases of gas, although I suppose if they don't have many phoenixes you dont need many thors.
On February 08 2011 01:58 statikg wrote: If you are going to be adding thors into your unit composition you definitely need to cut out a starport. The gas from thors and 4starports needs 3 bases of gas, although I suppose if they don't have many phoenixes you dont need many thors.
I cut Thors after I get two, and they finish right before the tech labs finish on my starports. So this is actually perfectly affordable without having to cut anything. The purpose of the Thors are:
Sniping Obs Forcing Immortals Dealing with Phoenix Tanking damage + excellent ground DPS support unit
What I try to do in my play is to snipe the observers with my Thors before I place my starports. That way, the Protoss scouts two Thors and many marines out and thinks "Oh, mass Thors! Let me get Immortal/Chargelot". If you deny scouting properly, you'll never see a Stargate go down and you can destroy the Protoss with your first Banshee push.
However, if he does scout your build, the Thors act as amazing AA units vs Phoenix and can really deter your opponent from opting to go Stargate in response. Mass stalker can do decently well against this build, but as I've analyzed before, Stalkers are not cost effective against Banshees.
Ah well i was thinking more thors would optimize your BO (less infrastructure wasted) and thors are very strong for cost (even against immortals with 250mm), but I guess if you manage to trick them into immortal/chargelot that would be pretty awesome.
The interesting thing with this composition is micro is going to be so important, if they are collosus heavy you want your thors in front to tank for your marines but if they have heavy phoenixes you MAY want your marines in front...but if they have phenoix and collosus then its hard to say whats best. Probably still thors in front I would guess because if you can knock out those collosus before they start ripping into your marines thats gonna be so huge.
This composition is gonna be owned by HT though, it does have room for a transition into blue flame hellions though in that case.
On February 08 2011 02:22 statikg wrote: Ah well i was thinking more thors would optimize your BO (less infrastructure wasted) and thors are very strong for cost (even against immortals with 250mm), but I guess if you manage to trick them into immortal/chargelot that would be pretty awesome.
The interesting thing with this composition is micro is going to be so important, if they are collosus heavy you want your thors in front to tank for your marines but if they have heavy phoenixes you MAY want your marines in front...but if they have phenoix and collosus then its hard to say whats best. Probably still thors in front I would guess because if you can knock out those collosus before they start ripping into your marines thats gonna be so huge.
This composition is gonna be owned by HT though, it does have room for a transition into blue flame hellions though in that case.
I've actually not had too much trouble with HTs. Sure, Banshees have a tendency to stack up on each other when they're attacking a target, but you can magic box them just like you would with mutas to mitigate storm damage. It takes THREE full storms to kill banshees. As long as you micro out of them, HTs are rendered useless. He'll want to be storming your marines anyways, and that's what the marines are for. They are a meatshield and a distraction for your banshees to stay alive. Use them to snipe obs, any AA or to soak storms.
Anyways, I personally prefer the Thors in the back so I have ample time to snipe the observers and any AA the Protoss may have. Marines are my meatshields
It only takes 2 storms to kill banshees, but you do have a point that they are fairly large units so I guess its not really cost effective to use HTs against them unless they have alot of built up energy. I would think that the marines can fulfil the same rolls as the thor but the thor is MUCH better at tanking collosus, and the marines will rip up any zealots attacking the thors if the colosus arent attacking them (stalkers will probably be firing on the banshees)
Ah....crap I thought storm was 65 damage, not 80. Just double checked. You are right. I have a little bit of editing to do then Either way, hasn't bothered me yet. I think either positioning works, but I like Thors in the back because even if I lose my marines to zealots, the Banshees will kill them later. I'd rather keep my Thors alive. Either work IMO.
On February 08 2011 03:12 dohgg wrote: Have u all noticed that last patch is like a super nef for this build
Obsevers got cheaper
Phonix got quicker to produce
Vrs got + dmg vs massive (thor, and BCs)
Even SCV repairing get same priority is an obvious nerf to thors
You forgot that hallucination has a faster research time so you scout better now as well.
But yeah, obviously we've noticed. And it really hasn't affected this build that much regardless. It makes it so that the timing window the Protoss has to crank phoenixes out is more forgiving, but they still cost the same, so you can only afford so many at a time anyways, and they aren't cheap.
The biggest thing is how good VRs are against BCs now...it makes it very difficult to transition into BCs if you scout stargate play, because a few void rays screws everything over. But overall, the build is still solid. It's not a "super nerf" like you said, but it does make it easier for a Protoss to respond. Definitely still a viable and powerful build nonetheless.
Synystyr, waht do u think about a lil diffrent opening for maps that u cant count on bunkers, and u will prefer the 2 rax FE.
More like 1 rax FE (in main) + bunker at choke and rush for quickest thor possible to secure natural.
Cuz i feel like the 2 rax FE is a beat weak to secure ur natural cuz u stop production on more raxs and ur slow banshee tech might not hold big pressure, while 1 thor with SCVs + 5-6 marines can hold any pressure on the 7 min mark..
On February 08 2011 05:25 dohgg wrote: Synystyr, waht do u think about a lil diffrent opening for maps that u cant count on bunkers, and u will prefer the 2 rax FE.
More like 1 rax FE (in main) + bunker at choke and rush for quickest thor possible to secure natural.
Cuz i feel like the 2 rax FE is a beat weak to secure ur natural cuz u stop production on more raxs and ur slow banshee tech might not hold big pressure, while 1 thor with SCVs + 5-6 marines can hold any pressure on the 7 min mark..
Look under the "Applying Early Bio Pressure" tab in the OP. It shows what I do there. There are also a couple replays in the Replays tab demonstrating exactly what I do.
On a 2 player map, I open with a 2 Marauder 1 Marine Conc shell rush with 2 Rax reinforcements to put early early pressure on while I expand behind that. I can win the game outright if the Toss tried to 1 Gate FE or tried to tech too quickly. Otherwise, they'll assume mass bio and it's what it'll look like when they poke in with their first obs. I'll still opt for raven first with my starport, deny scouting as best I can and then throw down my starports.
On 4 player maps, I open 2 Rax Stim into expand, which gives me two options depending on what I scout. I either push right as stim finishes if the Toss gets greedy, or I sit back and defend with a mobile ground force against any early Gateway rushes while I tech to Starports again.
Both of these are pretty solid openers in these situations and kind of point the Protoss in a direction that makes them think I'm going standard MMM play. The downsides are if my attacks are beaten convincingly, I can lose really early to a counter attack because my army is dead.
The build looks great but does not seem to work for me. I had 3 bunkers filled with marines at my Natural, the Protoss player just rolls in with 3 gate + void ray army, forcefield the bunkers so I cannot repair them and win the game.
In my experience FE only works vs Protoss if they leave you alone.
On a 2 player map, I open with a 2 Marauder 1 Marine Conc shell rush with 2 Rax reinforcements to put early early pressure on while I expand behind that. I can win the game outright if the Toss tried to 1 Gate FE or tried to tech too quickly. Otherwise, they'll assume mass bio and it's what it'll look like when they poke in with their first obs. I'll still opt for raven first with my starport, deny scouting as best I can and then throw down my starports.
These early pushes r very strong and will work vs greedy toss, i also prefer to add 2 Scv for these pushes for a alil more power and the option of bunkering up.
Ofcourse u wont be able to hold a swarm of probes, and i guess the dmg u'll do will be like 2-4 probes dying.
But the thing is that u r making an army trade really early, as u r not gonna replanish these dead units as much as the toss will do on 4G or 3G robo, and 3G stargate (in case u scouted it) will demolish u very badly as u will be forced to cut the banshees and make vikings with a low rax unit count.
If i m doing this 2 Rax FE into this such high tech, i'll be very very carefull with my poke.
On a 2 player map, I open with a 2 Marauder 1 Marine Conc shell rush with 2 Rax reinforcements to put early early pressure on while I expand behind that. I can win the game outright if the Toss tried to 1 Gate FE or tried to tech too quickly. Otherwise, they'll assume mass bio and it's what it'll look like when they poke in with their first obs. I'll still opt for raven first with my starport, deny scouting as best I can and then throw down my starports.
These early pushes r very strong and will work vs greedy toss, i also prefer to add 2 Scv for these pushes for a alil more power and the option of bunkering up.
Ofcourse u wont be able to hold a swarm of probes, and i guess the dmg u'll do will be like 2-4 probes dying.
But the thing is that u r making an army trade really early, as u r not gonna replanish these dead units as much as the toss will do on 4G or 3G robo, and 3G stargate (in case u scouted it) will demolish u very badly as u will be forced to cut the banshees and make vikings with a low rax unit count.
If i m doing this 2 Rax FE into this such high tech, i'll be very very carefull with my poke.
Spot on explanation of this sort of 2Rax early pressure. I do 2 Marauder, 1 Marine, 1 SCV at 5:25. Use the SCV to poke up the ramp and see if there are Sentry. If so, try to lure a FF (don't get any units trapped, perhaps SCV might get trapped but better that than Marauder). At that point you might retreat. However most games there are only 1 stalker and 1 Zealot, which I can kill both of with the Marauder/Marine. After that, I poke at pylons until he calls in more units. I have 2rax rallied to the opp base, but usually if Toss went 2-3 gate, he'll outswarm you. Pull back with only maybe an SCV lost, and you're ahead if you picked off a Zealot/Stalker. If he sends all of his probes after you, if you don't get surrounded you are VERY MUCH ahead as that was 100's of minerals of mining time lost!
Bring your troops back, tech up to the Banshee build, and you're good! Opp will expect bio so he'll tech for that
On February 08 2011 06:33 MockHamill wrote: The build looks great but does not seem to work for me. I had 3 bunkers filled with marines at my Natural, the Protoss player just rolls in with 3 gate + void ray army, forcefield the bunkers so I cannot repair them and win the game.
In my experience FE only works vs Protoss if they leave you alone.
THis is my experience as well. However what I have done, is just build 2 bunkers out front, let them blow all their forcefields on them, and then I build 2 bunkers slightly back that are in range of all the zealots but cant be forcefielded at the same time. So basically a little square, with one extra bunker. (you will still have the same marine count, so you have to make sure to move them back into the 4th bunker instead of letting them die.)
Ive also had some mild success with just planetaring my natural, it works best on LT or a map with a close natural, on Xel Naga or meta they might just walk on by. It makes my push come about 40 seconds later, but it sure helps to survive the intitial push (you save the minerals because you really only need to build 1 or 2 bunkers)
On February 08 2011 06:33 MockHamill wrote: The build looks great but does not seem to work for me. I had 3 bunkers filled with marines at my Natural, the Protoss player just rolls in with 3 gate + void ray army, forcefield the bunkers so I cannot repair them and win the game.
In my experience FE only works vs Protoss if they leave you alone.
THis is my experience as well. However what I have done, is just build 2 bunkers out front, let them blow all their forcefields on them, and then I build 2 bunkers slightly back that are in range of all the zealots but cant be forcefielded at the same time. So basically a little square, with one extra bunker. (you will still have the same marine count, so you have to make sure to move them back into the 4th bunker instead of letting them die.)
Ive also had some mild success with just planetaring my natural, it works best on LT or a map with a close natural, on Xel Naga or meta they might just walk on by. It makes my push come about 40 seconds later, but it sure helps to survive the intitial push (you save the minerals because you really only need to build 1 or 2 bunkers)
I've considered trying a Planetary Fortress at the nat on maps with wide open expos, but I've opted towards early bio instead because I like having mobile defence that I can counterattack with if the opportunity arises. On maps with closed naturals, a Planetary is completely unnecessary because of the 3 Bunker wall that serves the same purpose and still gives you the economic benefit of an Orbital.
I actually played against someone who mass FFed the back of my bunkers to prevent repairs, but what turned out happening was that he needed many sentries to do this, so he didn't have the fire power to break down my bunkers before the marines inside killed too much. I'll post the replay after work.
Anyways, I've never had any trouble FEing vs Protoss at all, and that's what I've been doing every game in this matchup. I've found any kind of 2 Rax FE is pretty simple to get away with, even against 4 Gates. You have defender's advantage and it's fairly easy to scout, so if you look for proxys and pick those off right away, you're in excellent shape.
On February 08 2011 22:23 Synystyr wrote: You have defender's advantage and it's fairly easy to scout, so if you look for proxys and pick those off right away, you're in excellent shape.
Ok, this is maybe a silly question... but, how do you pick off the proxy pylons? Usually, protoss makes the pylon as they push with their force, so I don't really have any units to spare to scoot around his army and search for pylons, no?
Thanks for the build, BTW. I've only had a chance to try it once tonight, as I kept rolling TvTs, but it worked like a charm. The bunkers scared him off of the early pressure, and he ended up with the usual colossi+gate death ball at the time of my push... the stuff that kills me every time... until now.
Good at the lower ranks, however with good forcefields and possibly phoenix's (8 banshees? toss will have seen the tech, phoenixes kill banshees at a cost effective value) any protoss above 2k masters can hold this off with ease. Especially considering you don't have a scouting tutorial for the bunker count (u dont always need 3, and you can make 2 and salvage one once u know what is going on).
On maps like shakuras this build can be weak, getting caught with a low marine count versus charged voids is deadly. The guide also does not establish the support units for the banshees, which is just as important as the build itself.
I used to use a similar build to this in september and it brings back good memories. I would delay the orbital command and refineries to get the command center faster then double refinery and get an engineering bay to just have enough gas to make it a planitary fortress after floating it to the expo. I got well into mid diamond at the time using this on every map vs protoss. This guide's build is much better though :D. I don't see why it wouldnt work in masters league. Im 2.6k masters i bet i could win at least 50% of my tvp with it.
On February 09 2011 13:29 FuSioN722 wrote: Good at the lower ranks, however with good forcefields and possibly phoenix's (8 banshees? toss will have seen the tech, phoenixes kill banshees at a cost effective value) any protoss above 2k masters can hold this off with ease. Especially considering you don't have a scouting tutorial for the bunker count (u dont always need 3, and you can make 2 and salvage one once u know what is going on).
On maps like shakuras this build can be weak, getting caught with a low marine count versus charged voids is deadly. The guide also does not establish the support units for the banshees, which is just as important as the build itself.
Phoenix is such a gas investment if you had enough to kill the banshees that you won't have a good amount of colossus or have teched to HT. Phoenix are also hit hard by the thors and marines, and the banshees can most likely take out 1-2 colossus before going down, and the thors and marines will just wipe out everything.
On February 08 2011 22:23 Synystyr wrote: You have defender's advantage and it's fairly easy to scout, so if you look for proxys and pick those off right away, you're in excellent shape.
Ok, this is maybe a silly question... but, how do you pick off the proxy pylons? Usually, protoss makes the pylon as they push with their force, so I don't really have any units to spare to scoot around his army and search for pylons, no?
Thanks for the build, BTW. I've only had a chance to try it once tonight, as I kept rolling TvTs, but it worked like a charm. The bunkers scared him off of the early pressure, and he ended up with the usual colossi+gate death ball at the time of my push... the stuff that kills me every time... until now.
I'll be honest, you can't always get the proxy pylon, because a smart Protoss will throw it down with a few units to guard it. There are some games you'll be able to look in the usual hiding places (Gold expo on LT, behind the grass in XNC, up a ramp in Metal etc.) and you'll be able to quickly take it out and deter the Protoss. Other times, it'll just end up built and you'll just have to pull some SCVs to your bunker to hold the push off, which shouldn't be a big deal anyways
On February 09 2011 13:29 FuSioN722 wrote: Good at the lower ranks, however with good forcefields and possibly phoenix's (8 banshees? toss will have seen the tech, phoenixes kill banshees at a cost effective value) any protoss above 2k masters can hold this off with ease. Especially considering you don't have a scouting tutorial for the bunker count (u dont always need 3, and you can make 2 and salvage one once u know what is going on).
On maps like shakuras this build can be weak, getting caught with a low marine count versus charged voids is deadly. The guide also does not establish the support units for the banshees, which is just as important as the build itself.
Actually, you can deny scouting in a very efficient manner with this build. Thor + Raven finish before you put down your extra starports, so you can kill the observer, and then build the starports in the farthest corner of your base away from the Protoss so it has the least chance of being scouted.
I'm also a 2500 pt Masters level player, and I've found i'm STILL crushing Protoss of my level and higher. No, you don't always need 3 bunkers, but an extra bunker doesn't affect how fast you'll tech or give you an extra 100 minerals you really need elsewhere. It's awesome to have a huge sense of security in the early game that lets you tech into a midgame quite easily.
Shakuras is also one of my favorite maps to play this build on. The bunkers can be placed right at your ramp so you have both the high ground advantage and it's extremely close to your natural so your SCVs have a short travel distance. My marine count isn't low either. 3 bunkers full of marines + a few more if I scout stargate are more than enough for void rays, not to mention my Thors will be in the process of being built at that point. Also, I don't know what you mean by saying the banshees have no support units. Thor + Raven to snipe obs and to PDD so stalkers can't hit them, while having ~40 Stim + Shield marines for all purposes.
On February 09 2011 14:22 terran151 wrote: I used to use a similar build to this in september and it brings back good memories. I would delay the orbital command and refineries to get the command center faster then double refinery and get an engineering bay to just have enough gas to make it a planitary fortress after floating it to the expo. I got well into mid diamond at the time using this on every map vs protoss. This guide's build is much better though :D. I don't see why it wouldnt work in masters league. Im 2.6k masters i bet i could win at least 50% of my tvp with it.
I personally think the Orbital is a much better choice, since the 3 bunker wall acts the same as a Planetary, and you get the extra economic boost from MULEs. I'm glad you like the build though! It's really, really powerful at this stage in the metagame.
This is such a strong build. It relies on the fact that protoss is going to prepare for MM.
Always snipe the obs in your base asap. When the raven is close to finishing, I bring 4 - 5 marines back to the starport and start walking around the base & natural. I sometimes build a turret between his base and the extra starports - try to make the turret look like it is protecting minerals or is on the base perimeter.
When there are 4+ banshees, salvage the bunkers and start moving out. Rally all barracks and starports to the raven. I group everything on 1 hotkey.
Attacking is preferred at a decisive point where opponent cannot backup without losing something - near the opponent's natural is good.
Then the attack often goes 1 a [click] d [click] [tab] t [tab] c. This will send everything in, make a PDD, stim MM and cloak the banshees.
Feel free to laugh as the opp attacks with collosi and/or FF your weak ground force.
On February 09 2011 22:08 falcoiii wrote: This is such a strong build. It relies on the fact that protoss is going to prepare for MM.
Always snipe the obs in your base asap. When the raven is close to finishing, I bring 4 - 5 marines back to the starport and start walking around the base & natural. I sometimes build a turret between his base and the extra starports - try to make the turret look like it is protecting minerals or is on the base perimeter.
When there are 4+ banshees, salvage the bunkers and start moving out. Rally all barracks and starports to the raven. I group everything on 1 hotkey.
Attacking is preferred at a decisive point where opponent cannot backup without losing something - near the opponent's natural is good.
Then the attack often goes 1 a [click] d [click] [tab] t [tab] c. This will send everything in, make a PDD, stim MM and cloak the banshees.
Feel free to laugh as the opp attacks with collosi and/or FF your weak ground force.
Just about sums it up I do my attack like this:
I group my ground on 1 and air on 2.
1 a [click] 2 a [click] d [click] d [click] [tab] c
Then I go back to my ground force and snipe the observers. I usually push out when I have either 10+ banshees or enough energy for 2 PDDs. Where this build really stands out is denying scouting with Raven/Thor/Marine. Your opponent sees this unit combo and think it's mass Thor play, so they go heavy Immortal/Zealot with Stalker support. Guess how welll that does vs Banshees....:D
Hi ive been practicing this build over and over against AI, and im note sure when to start making marines again. I guess this huge gas and mineral float when im getting out the thor and the raven which goes away when i have 4 ports making banshees. is this correct? it feels kinda funny just watching my minerals and gas ticking up and know that my army is smaller now but ill spend it all fairly fast when i get basnhee production going.
Lol this is crazy! I tried my own shitty version of this against protoss before even knowing about this thread. It worked, but definitely not as well as yours. Masters here I come ^^ always lose to protoss, nothing else. Terran is back!!
On February 11 2011 12:07 Jayzo wrote: Hi ive been practicing this build over and over against AI, and im note sure when to start making marines again. I guess this huge gas and mineral float when im getting out the thor and the raven which goes away when i have 4 ports making banshees. is this correct? it feels kinda funny just watching my minerals and gas ticking up and know that my army is smaller now but ill spend it all fairly fast when i get basnhee production going.
Any tips to help me with this part of the build?
You'll notice a build up of resources right after you begin cutting marines. To take care of that, you drop 2 refineries + factory + OC at the nat to take a little of that off. As soon as those are done, armory + starprort are next. You'll be somewhere around ~600 gas + mins so you'll feel like your macro is slipping, but as soon as you get raven + cloak + thor x2 and a 3rd racks, you're back in control and starving for cash So yeah, you're doing it right
The reason this happens is because you really don't need any more marines after you fill your bunkers because that'll all you'll need to hold pushes until your thors come out. I like to continue marine production as my 3rd racks finishes and two reactors go down, usually right after the Thors finish.
On February 11 2011 12:14 MrRicewife wrote: Lol this is crazy! I tried my own shitty version of this against protoss before even knowing about this thread. It worked, but definitely not as well as yours. Masters here I come ^^ always lose to protoss, nothing else. Terran is back!!
Haha good luck with it! Don't be shy to post back here for help/tips if things don't work out. GL and kill some Toss :D
Excellent build, it's nice to see fast collosus get punished so hard (never much enjoyed collosus myself, it's the most boring way to play protoss). When you say against HT tech it's hit or miss, I think I can see a way for protoss to fare pretty well in the main engagement: by keeping any obs back and storming the marines (the AA), feedback the raven before PDD if possible, then bringing the obs in when all marines are dead to stalkers. Of course if you notice the obs is away you could cloak banshees and snipe an ht or two.. anyway it would be a pretty even exchange. I'm gonna have to play this with a terran buddy because that sounds like a pretty awesome battle (even if it would only last .2 seconds).
P.S. be wary of relying on wall-in against DT tech. The hallucinated pheonix spotting a high ground warp-in might catch you off guard, and a raven can't be in two places (bases) at once
High templars are either hit or miss, depending on how storms land. The AI of the banshee will make it so that they stack quite a bit while hitting their targets, so try your best to spread your banshees as much as possible to mitigate the AoE. Once the initial storms are used though, the remaining banshees will usually be able to take care of everything.
Feedback is a non-issue. There are just waaaaaay too many banshees to feedback effectively, shutting down one of the avenues a Protoss might try and use to beat the banshees.
Anything that bypasses the bunker wall hurts a lot. The worst is a Blink Stalker Rush. Be dilligent about scouting for warp prisms/proxies and get a cloaked Banshee out ASAP if you scout Blink.
I would have to say that Feedback would destroy your banshees, especially if they have been around for awhile. This works exact same way as Ghost vs Templar, the EMPs aren't suppose to make the ghost be able to snipe after, and the feedbacks shouldn't allow the templar the storm or visa versa.
I'd say feedback with half your templar and storm with the rest.
On February 11 2011 17:21 Kornholi0 wrote: High templars are either hit or miss, depending on how storms land. The AI of the banshee will make it so that they stack quite a bit while hitting their targets, so try your best to spread your banshees as much as possible to mitigate the AoE. Once the initial storms are used though, the remaining banshees will usually be able to take care of everything.
Feedback is a non-issue. There are just waaaaaay too many banshees to feedback effectively, shutting down one of the avenues a Protoss might try and use to beat the banshees.
Anything that bypasses the bunker wall hurts a lot. The worst is a Blink Stalker Rush. Be dilligent about scouting for warp prisms/proxies and get a cloaked Banshee out ASAP if you scout Blink.
I would have to say that Feedback would destroy your banshees, especially if they have been around for awhile. This works exact same way as Ghost vs Templar, the EMPs aren't suppose to make the ghost be able to snipe after, and the feedbacks shouldn't allow the templar the storm or visa versa.
I'd say feedback with half your templar and storm with the rest.
The problem with feedback, is that when I push, there is only enough time to get a few templars out, and they aren't stacked with energy yet. It's impossible to feedback all of the banshees because of how many there are (10+). Feedbacking the Raven is a huge pickup for the Toss because I usually push at 200/200 energy, but banshees are always very low on energy as I'll cloak pre-engagement and try to snipe obs, making it harder to feedback regardless. And also, with the banshees stacked up, there's a very high chance you'll accidently feedback the same banshee twice. Storm is just sooooo much better than feedback in this situation that I don't really know why you wouldn't use it personally. I've never had ANY problems with feedback, whereas I have died to storms before.
If worse comes to worse, toggle cloak until them have like 20 energy on all your cloaked banshees.
Having cloak doesn't actually matter that much after you win the battle. It only matters if you can figure out how to kill the obs during the engagement.
On February 11 2011 23:04 Antisocialmunky wrote: If worse comes to worse, toggle cloak until them have like 20 energy on all your cloaked banshees.
Having cloak doesn't actually matter that much after you win the battle. It only matters if you can figure out how to kill the obs during the engagement.
Right, if you can snipe the obs, you're in awesome shape. If feedback really is an issue, you can do what ASM said to reduce damage, but I've found its always better to cloak, try for the obs snipe and spread banshees out to mitigate storms when dealing with templars.
I'm so, so sick of getting rolled by immortals/sentry or col builds. It's fun to actually push out on 'toss and know you can push their shit in without godly micro. Meanwhile they are teching to lulzystorms.
I think I have this build down, and here is a game of me vs a plat 'toss. (Yus, I'm silver!).
I think the most important part of his build is around the 7-10 min mark when the toss player might push. I've had it happen to me twice where I was in total macro mode and couldn't get workers to my bunkers in time. I think that timing attack window is the most vulnerable point, right before your raven/thor is coming out. It might even be worth keeping a few workers right by your bunkers on auto repair just in case.
That and scouting for sentry heavy builds.
In this game he was content to use his Col to snipe my bunkers, which game me time to pull my fat out of the fryer.
Here is another really good game on Metal. It gets kind of furious at the ending and my macro gets sloppy, but I wouldn't have won without this strat :D
He techs switch after surviving my first shee attack and gets voids and a few phoenix. So I tech switched to marine/medi. :D
I find this build to be more difficult on certain maps like setting up the Triple Bunkers at Expo versus Protoss that will go for Warp Prism Play. 4 Zealots can take quite a beating from unstimmed marines and I don't want to eject all my bunkers trying to fend it off.
On February 16 2011 12:55 Fedor wrote: Love! LOVE! LOVE! this build.
I'm so, so sick of getting rolled by immortals/sentry or col builds. It's fun to actually push out on 'toss and know you can push their shit in without godly micro. Meanwhile they are teching to lulzystorms.
I think I have this build down, and here is a game of me vs a plat 'toss. (Yus, I'm silver!).
I think the most important part of his build is around the 7-10 min mark when the toss player might push. I've had it happen to me twice where I was in total macro mode and couldn't get workers to my bunkers in time. I think that timing attack window is the most vulnerable point, right before your raven/thor is coming out. It might even be worth keeping a few workers right by your bunkers on auto repair just in case.
That and scouting for sentry heavy builds.
In this game he was content to use his Col to snipe my bunkers, which game me time to pull my fat out of the fryer.
Glad to hear some feedback from the lower end of the ladder! (No offense ) I 100% agree with you that the weakest point in the build is right before the Raven/Thor pop out...So that's why you should be diligent about your scouting and hold the watchtowers to see when a push is about to happen so you can prepare to repair your bunkers ASAP. Will watch the replay when I get home!
On February 16 2011 15:49 SecretA5DC wrote: I find this build to be more difficult on certain maps like setting up the Triple Bunkers at Expo versus Protoss that will go for Warp Prism Play. 4 Zealots can take quite a beating from unstimmed marines and I don't want to eject all my bunkers trying to fend it off.
Yes, maps with open naturals such as XNC or Metal can't be properly defend with bunkers, which is why I opt for early stimmed Bio (See Applying Early Bio Pressure tab) and have a mobile defensive force to deal with pushes.
On maps when you can wall off, you should be very wary of the Protoss trying to circumvent your defenses. I've found the best way to deal with this is to patrol 1-2 marines around the edges of your base. This nullifies ANY possibility of a proxy warpin, and helps you spot that drop early and possibly deter it because of the fragility of the Warp Prism.
If there is a successful warpin from the prism, you need to unload 2 of the bunkers to defend, use SCVs to surround the zealots and HOLD POSITION so that the AI of the zealots causes them to get stuck in your SCV line and your marines can clean up. If you stop a drop, you are very far ahead if they didn't do any damage. It really cuts into their tech and army size more than you'd think.
This build made me switch from Protoss to Terran this weekend. I hate having to rely on the same Colossus build over and over again after 500 games played.
I too found out that sniping the observers is of key importance. Also i go for early Raven + Viking instead of Raven + Thor for sniping mobility. It's working like a charm so far!
On February 16 2011 23:41 Bourgi wrote: This build made me switch from Protoss to Terran this weekend. I hate having to rely on the same Colossus build over and over again after 500 games played.
I too found out that sniping the observers is of key importance. Also i go for early Raven + Viking instead of Raven + Thor for sniping mobility. It's working like a charm so far!
Interesting! Personally, I've found Raven/Thor to deny scouting can force the Protoss to go Immortal/Zealot, and if you hide your starports and banshees well, you can REALLY catch a Protoss off guard. Thors also have the same range against air as vikings, and do phenomenal ground DPS and damage soaking, as well as being a high priority target.
And wow, you really changed race? Flattering Look at it like this though, if you play Terran against Protoss, you can get a first hand look at how Terran builds work, and then adjust your Protoss playstyle to dismantle it. I've learned that Stargate openings with Protoss are just as powerful, if not more powerful than Robo. In the current metagame, Terrans know how to deal with the usual Robo-Gate vs BioMediViking scenario, but now that mech is coming into play, Protoss is starting to have to adjust to a more Stargate favored playstyle, which is showing just how strong that can be.
Couldn't a protoss player just get an observer, proxy pylon close to your main base's ledge and then warp in units to devastate your main mineral line?
On February 17 2011 00:44 rapier7 wrote: Couldn't a protoss player just get an observer, proxy pylon close to your main base's ledge and then warp in units to devastate your main mineral line?
Yes, but you're obviously not supposed to allow that to happen That's why I always patrol a marine along the ledge of my base. Pylon power's range is the same as the marine's, so I can always shoot the pylon down. This way, there is no possible way for the Protoss to warp in units so long as I patrol.
On February 17 2011 00:44 rapier7 wrote: Couldn't a protoss player just get an observer, proxy pylon close to your main base's ledge and then warp in units to devastate your main mineral line?
Yes, but you're obviously not supposed to allow that to happen That's why I always patrol a marine along the ledge of my base. Pylon power's range is the same as the marine's, so I can always shoot the pylon down. This way, there is no possible way for the Protoss to warp in units so long as I patrol.
Okay, so why not blink stalkers up there and then dominate the main mineral line?
On February 17 2011 00:44 rapier7 wrote: Couldn't a protoss player just get an observer, proxy pylon close to your main base's ledge and then warp in units to devastate your main mineral line?
Yes, but you're obviously not supposed to allow that to happen That's why I always patrol a marine along the ledge of my base. Pylon power's range is the same as the marine's, so I can always shoot the pylon down. This way, there is no possible way for the Protoss to warp in units so long as I patrol.
Okay, so why not blink stalkers up there and then dominate the main mineral line?
I think Syn said that Blink Stalkers is probably the toughest Toss strats to deal with. But again, if Toss opts for quick Blink, then chances are he won't have a Robo for ob vision. Or if he does, it'll be a low Gateway count so unless he's pretty much all'inning on a Blink rush to succesfully work I think some good marine + scv shield micro should fend it off.
On February 17 2011 00:44 rapier7 wrote: Couldn't a protoss player just get an observer, proxy pylon close to your main base's ledge and then warp in units to devastate your main mineral line?
Yes, but you're obviously not supposed to allow that to happen That's why I always patrol a marine along the ledge of my base. Pylon power's range is the same as the marine's, so I can always shoot the pylon down. This way, there is no possible way for the Protoss to warp in units so long as I patrol.
Okay, so why not blink stalkers up there and then dominate the main mineral line?
I think Syn said that Blink Stalkers is probably the toughest Toss strats to deal with. But again, if Toss opts for quick Blink, then chances are he won't have a Robo for ob vision. Or if he does, it'll be a low Gateway count so unless he's pretty much all'inning on a Blink rush to succesfully work I think some good marine + scv shield micro should fend it off.
This. It's under the "Scenarios against other Various Protoss Builds" tab. It's certainly not easy, but the push happens just as the Thor is making. With good SCV repair and surround micro, it should be possible to hold off without too many casualties.
you know what i like most about thors and banshees and battlecruisers? They don't get destroyed by mass force fields! Man that has got to be the most annoying part of TvP.
On February 18 2011 07:57 Senorcuidado wrote: you know what i like most about thors and banshees and battlecruisers? They don't get destroyed by mass force fields! Man that has got to be the most annoying part of TvP.
Haha oh yes, no having to worry about your army getting cut in half and losing because you can't run up a ramp :D Sentries are actually nearly useless vs air, since their DPS is mediocre and guardian shield really doesn't reduce enough damage from the Banshees since they hit so damn hard anyways xD
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So, I've also learned how to deal with Stargate openings. I poke in to the Protoss' base with my first banshee to do some harass and scouting. Once I scout Stargate play, I immediately cut banshee production and throw down a Fusion. I bank all my money and pop out as many BCs + Yamato and then turtle until I have 4 BCs, heavy marine support and a sprinkling of banshee/viking, along with the two Thors from earlier. Yamato one shots Void rays and Phoenix do next to nothing against BCs. BCs also steal aggro from your banshees and tank a ton of damage. Marines also do well against stalkers and help with AA/obs sniping.
So I've just started using this build and I've lost trice (?) in a row vs early warpprism play (mostly 1base). I got marines patroling so i notice but his stalkers kill my partoling marine. That makes me pull more marines to snipe warpprism, but then im weak at front. Then he just rolls my bunkers.
Same happened to me also today in tlopen ro2 , the protoss used warp prism with 4 zealots and then warping stakkers in my mineral...had to pull 1 bunker +some marines to fend it off with scvs also but he rolled my 4 bunkers at the nat choche(2 were empty) . I used the old version of the build without the thor...but it's mainly my fault as i did some mistakes before this 2 prone attack happened...guess need to practise it more
On February 19 2011 23:03 kusu wrote: So I've just started using this build and I've lost trice (?) in a row vs early warpprism play (mostly 1base). I got marines patroling so i notice but his stalkers kill my partoling marine. That makes me pull more marines to snipe warpprism, but then im weak at front. Then he just rolls my bunkers.
I'm not a good player so help appreciated!
Thanks!
Warp Prism play can be very tricky because of the zealots. At the point of the Warp Prism drop, your Thor should be in the process of making. What you need to do is get a surround with your SCVs and pull two bunkers full of marines out to kill the army and have SCVs at the nat go to repair the bunkers in the front. You need only delay until your Thor arrives, and then you can do repair micro with it to kill the army. Warp Prism drop is usually a 1 Base play, so if you hold off the attack, you should still be at equal levels or higher of economy, and can come back quickly if the damage was too severe.
On February 20 2011 02:17 titan_tase wrote: Same happened to me also today in tlopen ro2 , the protoss used warp prism with 4 zealots and then warping stakkers in my mineral...had to pull 1 bunker +some marines to fend it off with scvs also but he rolled my 4 bunkers at the nat choche(2 were empty) . I used the old version of the build without the thor...but it's mainly my fault as i did some mistakes before this 2 prone attack happened...guess need to practise it more
Same advice to you as the guy above basically You'll want to get the Thor out. It's extremely crucial in early game defense, sniping observers and to create an aura of deception that you are playing a Marine/Thor build and he'll make the wrong units to deal with your banshees.
Replays are always good to post guys! I can help much more if I can analyze the things that you did
Hey man, really appreciate all the effort you put into this build/thread! Have been stuck in mid-diamond for a while due now to my beyond crappy TvP and was really astonished when I first tried out your build. I'd been thinking no one would lemme get away with the FE and then just watch while the banshees go to town but I'll be damned, more often than not it actually works out=) Guess I can't vouch for the competence of my opponents but hey, they probably wouldn't vouch for mine either..
On February 20 2011 11:43 Tenspeed wrote: Hey man, really appreciate all the effort you put into this build/thread! Have been stuck in mid-diamond for a while due now to my beyond crappy TvP and was really astonished when I first tried out your build. I'd been thinking no one would lemme get away with the FE and then just watch while the banshees go to town but I'll be damned, more often than not it actually works out=) Guess I can't vouch for the competence of my opponents but hey, they probably wouldn't vouch for mine either..
Not a problem whatsoever I love contributing to TL. I kind of get this high when I write a guide out. It's so enjoyable and I love hearing people's opinions and seeing what effects it might have on the metagame. If you have any issues with the build, or lost and don't know why, post a replay or two and I can analyze it and point out any glaring issues. Good luck!
It is nice to see that more and more players are realizing the potential of the banshee as a standard unit that can be massed and incorporated into an army. I don't do this build but a very macro focused bio into tank/marine/ghost core to play very defensively, but I also produce banshee's out of two ports with this build and mass them up which solves my lack of mobility.
10 banshee's are amazing at flying around the map like they are mutalisks, picking off anything that is built too close to a ledge and sniping newly planted expansions. Not only does it force phoenix or stalkers which is gas that goes into stuff that I don't mind dealing with but I keep my banshees alive all game, running them away before they take any hits, then as soon as a major battle happens I just bring my banshees in with my main army.
I don't really understand how to set builds, and I haven't used YABOT in a while, but would someone who can nail this build get it set into YABOT somehow lol? It would be sweet to have something to measure against as I try to practice the hell out of it.
On February 20 2011 12:02 VanGarde wrote: It is nice to see that more and more players are realizing the potential of the banshee as a standard unit that can be massed and incorporated into an army. I don't do this build but a very macro focused bio into tank/marine/ghost core to play very defensively, but I also produce banshee's out of two ports with this build and mass them up which solves my lack of mobility.
10 banshee's are amazing at flying around the map like they are mutalisks, picking off anything that is built too close to a ledge and sniping newly planted expansions. Not only does it force phoenix or stalkers which is gas that goes into stuff that I don't mind dealing with but I keep my banshees alive all game, running them away before they take any hits, then as soon as a major battle happens I just bring my banshees in with my main army.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I believe air is the best way to deal with Protoss mid-late game. It's so sturdy against anything Protoss can throw at it, and you don't have to deal with the crazy AoE and ground melting armies that Protoss get late game. Once you get Yamato with upgraded BCs, you are nearly impossible to stop. VRs are the only real answer to them at that point, but Yamato 1 shots them, problem solved!
On February 20 2011 12:28 Ilfirin wrote: I don't really understand how to set builds, and I haven't used YABOT in a while, but would someone who can nail this build get it set into YABOT somehow lol? It would be sweet to have something to measure against as I try to practice the hell out of it.
I think I'd fit that niche of someone who knows how to do this build I'll run it over YABOT and upload it ASAP!
On February 20 2011 23:41 Antisocialmunky wrote: I just watched the GiantBomb finals. That was pretty slick I gotta try the mass BC first build
Hehe ^.-
That was in response to scouting Phoenix with my first banshee that I went to harass with. Phoenix don't do well against BC, so if you grab a couple first and then push/expand, your push is a little heftier since you mitigate the threat to your banshees because the AI of the phoenix will target the BCs instead because of the threat priorities.
On February 20 2011 23:41 Antisocialmunky wrote: I just watched the GiantBomb finals. That was pretty slick I gotta try the mass BC first build
Hehe ^.-
That was in response to scouting Phoenix with my first banshee that I went to harass with. Phoenix don't do well against BC, so if you grab a couple first and then push/expand, your push is a little heftier since you mitigate the threat to your banshees because the AI of the phoenix will target the BCs instead because of the threat priorities.
That's interesting. I wonder if it is a good general purpose thing to do. I floated the idea of making 2/3 BCs and then nothing but banshees because the BCs tank everything and the Banshees provide the ridiculous DPS.
On February 21 2011 18:39 FinestHour wrote: Have you tried your build against a protoss who gets both void rays and colossus in his army off two base?
I have, and I don't believe it is as scary as Phoenix/Colossus honestly. It's easy to get off guard by a composition like this because the marines get melted by the colossi and your AA becomes scarce.
You need to scout your opponent well before pushing. A timing scan and a banshee to harass and scout at the same time has always been sufficient for me. You can get a couple rounds of Vikings if you scout Void Rays, or if you scout Phoenix, you go for Battlecruisers with Yamato.
Going BC straight after scouting Void Rays is silly because the VRs will melt the BCs, while the Colossi will take all your AA out. With Vikings, you can preemptively snipe those units and then push with your scary Banshee force.
Against Phoenix, the BCs will tank incredible amounts of damage and force the AI of the Phoenix to attack the BCs rather than the Banshees. You grab Yamato early for the eventual Void Ray response so that you can 1 shot the suckers when they pop.
On February 22 2011 13:12 Jayzo wrote: this build is amazing, it works against everything ive played, yet to lose with it mid level diamond. thanks so much!
On February 23 2011 09:31 cpthk wrote: nice post, learned a lot, thanks.
No problem guys
I wonder how Korea would react to a build like this. I don't think I've ever seen Banshee heavy play from Korean progamers before and wonder if it would work at that level, or if they've even considered it yet.
It was a revelation today with the Hyperdub vs MVP game where it definitely seemed like the Hellion + Air composition was something that had never been seen before. I'm sure we'll be seeing much more of that soon....wish I could get this build transcribed over to the Korean side somehow xD.
On February 21 2011 18:39 FinestHour wrote: Have you tried your build against a protoss who gets both void rays and colossus in his army off two base?
I encountered this and honestly it was the easiest composition. VR's don't really do too much damage to your banshee flock so all I did was dart in with my Banshee, kill the Colossus, then move in with my marines.
i faced this today but to be honest it wasnt that big a deal. I used an observer to scout out 4 port banshee and I decided to make a lot of observers and double stargate a small pheonix army. Sure the thors hurt my phoenixes but after sniping the raven I was going to town on his army and my pheonixes survived long enough to completely destroy the huge banshee numbers the opponent Terran had.
On February 23 2011 10:55 ZeromuS wrote: i faced this today but to be honest it wasnt that big a deal. I used an observer to scout out 4 port banshee and I decided to make a lot of observers and double stargate a small pheonix army. Sure the thors hurt my phoenixes but after sniping the raven I was going to town on his army and my pheonixes survived long enough to completely destroy the huge banshee numbers the opponent Terran had.
Not that I don't believe you, but I would really really like to see the replay of this if you have it available. If you indeed did crush it like you said, I'd like to analyze to see how it happened and see what can be improved or if it was just poor execution on the Terran's end. Thanks!!
Hello there! Im a 1,3k Diamond player and I've been doing this strategy for a while and it have turned out really good! But today while playing against a friend of mine I lost every game to his 4gate timing push. I got my 3 bunkers up in time but yet he crushed me on 2 of the 3 maps we played.
When I play the ladder I crush their 4Gate with my def but not when I play against my silver/gold mate, wtf? I would love if u could watch those replays and give me some feedback! Thanks /Limpo
On February 25 2011 07:04 Limpo wrote: Hello there! Im a 1,3k Diamond player and I've been doing this strategy for a while and it have turned out really good! But today while playing against a friend of mine I lost every game to his 4gate timing push. I got my 3 bunkers up in time but yet he crushed me on 2 of the 3 maps we played.
When I play the ladder I crush their 4Gate with my def but not when I play against my silver/gold mate, wtf? I would love if u could watch those replays and give me some feedback! Thanks /Limpo
Without watching the replays, I can already tell you your problem.
Metalopolis and Xel'naga Caverns.
Any map that has an open natural, such as these two maps, cannot be defended safely from 4 Gate with bunkers. Instead, you need to open a little differently to get your expansion up safely. I prefer to do a 2 Rax Stim expand instead. This gives you a mobile defense unit that you can use to take the 4 Gate out. Stim makes it really easy to.
Here's a good layout of how you would want to stim expand:
Without watching the replays, I can already tell you your problem.
Metalopolis and Xel'naga Caverns.
Any map that has an open natural, such as these two maps, cannot be defended safely from 4 Gate with bunkers. Instead, you need to open a little differently to get your expansion up safely. I prefer to do a 2 Rax Stim expand instead. This gives you a mobile defense unit that you can use to take the 4 Gate out. Stim makes it really easy to.
Here's a good layout of how you would want to stim expand:
Without watching the replays, I can already tell you your problem.
Metalopolis and Xel'naga Caverns.
Any map that has an open natural, such as these two maps, cannot be defended safely from 4 Gate with bunkers. Instead, you need to open a little differently to get your expansion up safely. I prefer to do a 2 Rax Stim expand instead. This gives you a mobile defense unit that you can use to take the 4 Gate out. Stim makes it really easy to.
Here's a good layout of how you would want to stim expand:
Well I can definitely vouch for the strength of this build because I've played against the poster and he really demolished me. One thing to note for this build as a Protoss player, this build is designed to look like a 111 raven PDD rush and if you're tricked into believing that, you might make immortals and zealots which are completely useless against this strategy. So correct scouting is definitely needed to know that this push is even coming.
I tried combating this build with a high sentry build MC style push but you must hit before that first thor comes out, else your gateway units will be destroyed. I would definitely experiment more with templar builds to combat this.
On February 25 2011 07:58 FoBuLouS wrote: Well I can definitely vouch for the strength of this build because I've played against the poster and he really demolished me. One thing to note for this build as a Protoss player, this build is designed to look like a 111 raven PDD rush and if you're tricked into believing that, you might make immortals and zealots which are completely useless against this strategy. So correct scouting is definitely needed to know that this push is even coming.
I tried combating this build with a high sentry build MC style push but you must hit before that first thor comes out, else your gateway units will be destroyed. I would definitely experiment more with templar builds to combat this.
Those forcefields were soooo gosu. I wish I saved the replay...you don't happen to still have it?
What I noticed here was that since you had such a high sentry count, the DPS of your Gateway ball was just too low to break through the bunkers before your units were shot down. The Thor really helped, but I felt like I would have been just fine otherwise.
That game was the ideal situation for me however. You scouted Thor/Raven/Marine, and responded appropriately with Chargelot/Immortal, which was exactly what I wanted. If you have the replay, could you send it? It was a good game
On February 23 2011 10:55 ZeromuS wrote: i faced this today but to be honest it wasnt that big a deal. I used an observer to scout out 4 port banshee and I decided to make a lot of observers and double stargate a small pheonix army. Sure the thors hurt my phoenixes but after sniping the raven I was going to town on his army and my pheonixes survived long enough to completely destroy the huge banshee numbers the opponent Terran had.
Not that I don't believe you, but I would really really like to see the replay of this if you have it available. If you indeed did crush it like you said, I'd like to analyze to see how it happened and see what can be improved or if it was just poor execution on the Terran's end. Thanks!!
I've got it saved at home. It might have been his execution or it might have been the fact I didn't get the collossus out since i was using my gas on the double stargate pheonixes that showed up just in time.
The only problem I see with this build is the fact that it is really tech heavy and that the gas off 2 bases really limits the numbers of units you can have along with the cost of the tech units in general and the investment in the unit producing structures. This being said if I had collossus and no pheonix I would have died no question I just feel that this build kind of relies on a blind counter and hopes that you don't your build scouted.
Im 2.9k Diamond btw and the game was on LT cross positions if you were wondering.
On February 23 2011 10:55 ZeromuS wrote: i faced this today but to be honest it wasnt that big a deal. I used an observer to scout out 4 port banshee and I decided to make a lot of observers and double stargate a small pheonix army. Sure the thors hurt my phoenixes but after sniping the raven I was going to town on his army and my pheonixes survived long enough to completely destroy the huge banshee numbers the opponent Terran had.
Not that I don't believe you, but I would really really like to see the replay of this if you have it available. If you indeed did crush it like you said, I'd like to analyze to see how it happened and see what can be improved or if it was just poor execution on the Terran's end. Thanks!!
I've got it saved at home. It might have been his execution or it might have been the fact I didn't get the collossus out since i was using my gas on the double stargate pheonixes that showed up just in time.
The only problem I see with this build is the fact that it is really tech heavy and that the gas off 2 bases really limits the numbers of units you can have along with the cost of the tech units in general and the investment in the unit producing structures. This being said if I had collossus and no pheonix I would have died no question I just feel that this build kind of relies on a blind counter and hopes that you don't your build scouted.
Im 2.9k Diamond btw and the game was on LT cross positions if you were wondering.
Sounds pretty good. I'd still love to take a look at it if you have a chance to post it up here Yeah, gas is a really limiting factor with this build, but you could say that about any build. Every build, once scouted, can be dealt with. Like if I just went MMMVG, you could easily scout that and get colossi. If I get scouted, I can still win the game regardless. It doesn't rely on blind luck but it does add a lot of potency to the build if it goes unscouted.
On February 25 2011 08:32 FoBuLouS wrote: Nope don't have the replay anymore But one thing is for sure, proper scouting is definitely needed to beat your build.
Damn....oh well. We can always just play some more then ^^. I'm sure you'd try to do a sentry bust again before the thor timing anyways
I've added new information on how to properly engage another Protoss army using this army composition.
I've also added a second opener with this build, as with the new map pool, naturals are too wide open and bunkers do not sufficiently protect you. I laid out the build order and also analyzed it in depth.
I had a lot of trouble against this build in the past as a toss player. Then I realized mass zealot+colo+2 starport pheonix with obs speed hard counters this build until it transitions to bcs. It is still a very good build every low level terran should try it, if toss doesnt see it coming its gg.
On March 01 2011 04:45 Tenks wrote: Thanks for the update. I've been getting wrecked lately on the new maps. No idea why Blizzard hates easy to defend naturals
You're telling me I can understand maps like Metal or Xel'naga, where it's possible to defend still, but Backwater Gulch is terrible...I mean come on >_<
On March 01 2011 04:50 xbankx wrote: I had a lot of trouble against this build in the past as a toss player. Then I realized mass zealot+colo+2 starport pheonix with obs speed hard counters this build until it transitions to bcs. It is still a very good build every low level terran should try it, if toss doesnt see it coming its gg.
In the current metagame, this build still has a lot of the "surprise" factor to it. However, it definitely doesn't rely on that. If you scout your opponent going fast Phoenix, a quick transition into BCs can really catch the Protoss off guard, as Phoenix are awful against them. Zealot + Colo does eat up marines, but your banshees will clean up the entire ground army, and that is no small investment for Protoss. This is actually what you want to happen.
On March 01 2011 05:58 vahgar.r24 wrote: Guys any reps on the new maps with the new BO..would love to see them!
I don't have any that are played on the new maps, however there are still a couple replays in the Replays tab that show how you would execute Build Order 2. See if that helps at all
Thanks a lot for the guide, it helps me a lot in TvP when I offrace as T (my main race is Z, but I have easier time against P as T than Z thanks to your guide ) I just have a question concerning your build order #1: when you start the factory -> tech lab -> tech lab + armory, you only have 13 marines, 3 bunkers and a raven (but not enough energy for PDD) before the first thor is built. It seems pretty fine when the toss expands, but do you still use this build if you see the toss stay on one base? Granted, 4 gates hits right when you have your thirteen marines, but I was wondering about more delayed one base push from toss, do you try to get a faster thor (delaying the raven by not swapping factory and starport) or don't halt marine production when you scout that toss is staying on one base?
On March 06 2011 06:51 gondolin wrote: Thanks a lot for the guide, it helps me a lot in TvP when I offrace as T (my main race is Z, but I have easier time against P as T than Z thanks to your guide ) I just have a question concerning your build order #1: when you start the factory -> tech lab -> tech lab + armory, you only have 13 marines, 3 bunkers and a raven (but not enough energy for PDD) before the first thor is built. It seems pretty fine when the toss expands, but do you still use this build if you see the toss stay on one base? Granted, 4 gates hits right when you have your thirteen marines, but I was wondering about more delayed one base push from toss, do you try to get a faster thor (delaying the raven by not swapping factory and starport) or don't halt marine production when you scout that toss is staying on one base?
Not a problem! I'm glad you like it :-)
Yes, I still on the same build even if the Toss 1 bases for a very extended period of time. Actually, there is no delay with the Thor or Raven at all because I instantly go armory+starport after factory, and I am able to get two tech labs up in the time it takes for the armory to build. In a perfect situation, you are able to start the Thor and Raven at the same time, and they will both finish at the same time.
If you're really worried, you can go banshee before Raven, which coupled with mass repair on the Thor, bunkers and banshee, it should be more than enough to hold the push.
This build is super good. The only time I lose when I'm doing this build is when they go 3 gate robo early push with sentries and FF behind my bunkers so I can't repair.
On March 06 2011 10:24 Vanchen wrote: This build is super good. The only time I lose when I'm doing this build is when they go 3 gate robo early push with sentries and FF behind my bunkers so I can't repair.
Yeah 3 Gate Robo Immortal bust with Sentries to FF your bunkers is the absolute toughest scenario to defend against. I'm not sure what the best way to defend against it is, but I suspect a Banshee before Raven if you scout it would deal with it very well. Also scouting the push before it hits will allow you to get SCVs ready to repair a little before the FFs go down.
On March 07 2011 10:36 flexy wrote: Any new replays on the wide open maps?
Not as of yet...I haven't really gotten around to laddering, I have a bunch on Metal though which is pretty much the same idea.
I know there are already a couple replays in the Replays tab that are almost dead similar for the opening however. They may be a tiny bit old, but it should cover for now until I can get more replays.
I've been mixing this strat with an early Blue flame Hellion drop. What you do is expo as your drop him. It’s a later expo but my idea behind it is put your opponent behind and then build up the tech tree to this because it’s a very strong unit mix for mid/late game. I’ll see if I can get a replay of it tonight.
On March 08 2011 01:00 BONE wrote: I've been mixing this strat with an early Blue flame Hellion drop. What you do is expo as your drop him. It’s a later expo but my idea behind it is put your opponent behind and then build up the tech tree to this because it’s a very strong unit mix for mid/late game. I’ll see if I can get a replay of it tonight.
I like it. Early econ damage that lets you take an expansion relatively safely. I might actually use iEchoic's 1-1-2 opener and expand behind that...it makes it really easy to transition into mass air play, but it is also really easy for Protoss to prepare defense ahead of time...I really need to re-look the opener and adjust accordingly.
What level are you playing at these days Synstyr? I keep switching back to bio when I get frustrated with these different TvP builds but I'm getting pretty psyched for it again with the upcoming BC buff. I really like the idea of using iechoics opener and transitioning into this build from there, it sets up your infrastructure pretty nicely and I feel like my major problem with this build (2900 masters) is constantly getting owned by the 1 base protoss push in the early game. I have even been having trouble with the 6gate push which is getting super popular right now especially with how open all the naturals are these days.
I recall winning alot of games with iechoics build back in the fall until it got so popular it was standard for toss to leave units in their mineral lines. I think it would definitely be a much safer transition but it would not be as good if the protoss decides to pull a FE on you =/
PS, I still feel that you are overdoing it with 4 starports on 2base, I think that 3 or even 2 would be more manageable considering that on 2 bases you only bring in 400gas/min = 1thor/2banshee so unless your not using gas for anything else at all you can't afford to use all your starports all the time.
PPS, in your transitions tab you state that 3 base = 4SP BCs - it actually is 3 base = 3SP BCs.
I love any build that doesn't have to worry about losing the whole game to 6 sentries spamming forcefields, which is pretty much every TvP on Xelnaga Caverns if I decide to go bio. I've been having some really fun games with this style against robo builds but more and more Protoss are rushing right for high Templars lately. Feedback and storm do a lot of damage to banshees, and even though I can micro and return for repairs it doesn't take a lot to repel my harrassment and give him more time to build up. Of course all my marines aren't too great against the storms either. I suppose sometimes I might catch him without detection but usually the robo is up just in time. How do you handle this, or do you just stop banshee production at that point?
I suppose going for a contain, taking an early third, and switching battlecruisers could do well on that case, but a strong two base timing attack with stalkers and high temps is pretty scary. That's what killed me before the cruisers were online but I was pretty late with the transition. This whole situation will be waaay easier when amulet is gone.
As for the robo builds, the common reaction to marine/banshee has been Colossus/Phoenix, which I responded to by treating my marines like zerglings and rushing to 3/3. So you think collosus counters marines? I have a replay that proves otherwise . Obviously the bc switch is a more reliable response but if you can constantly pull their army out of position and keep the colossus numbers low by trading often, it is tons of fun.
On March 08 2011 04:55 statikg wrote: What level are you playing at these days Synstyr? I keep switching back to bio when I get frustrated with these different TvP builds but I'm getting pretty psyched for it again with the upcoming BC buff. I really like the idea of using iechoics opener and transitioning into this build from there, it sets up your infrastructure pretty nicely and I feel like my major problem with this build (2900 masters) is constantly getting owned by the 1 base protoss push in the early game. I have even been having trouble with the 6gate push which is getting super popular right now especially with how open all the naturals are these days.
I recall winning alot of games with iechoics build back in the fall until it got so popular it was standard for toss to leave units in their mineral lines. I think it would definitely be a much safer transition but it would not be as good if the protoss decides to pull a FE on you =/
PS, I still feel that you are overdoing it with 4 starports on 2base, I think that 3 or even 2 would be more manageable considering that on 2 bases you only bring in 400gas/min = 1thor/2banshee so unless your not using gas for anything else at all you can't afford to use all your starports all the time.
PPS, in your transitions tab you state that 3 base = 4SP BCs - it actually is 3 base = 3SP BCs.
I'm playing at about ~3k masters level at the moment. I'm still finding tremendous success with this build. BC speed buff is HUUUUGE. I can't wait for it to be implemented With bunkers, 1 base pushes have never been an issue, so I think with a 2 Rax Stim expand + Bunkers, it should be a pretty solid way of opening with a fast expansion vs Protoss.
iEchoic's build was really powerful when it first came out because it had a huge element of surprise. It's lost a little potency now, but hellion drops are going to do damage regardless, and the quick banshees really punish any lack of detection. I still use the build in BoX situations with good results and find that it's really easy to transition into 4 Port from there.
In response to your PS, I'm not constantly producing Thors. They are not a huge part of my army, but are used more for defense while I tech, observer sniping and relaying false scouting information to my opponent. I need the 4 starports in order to push out a critical mass of banshees quickly, and to easily get a large number of vikings out if I need to. I can perfectly afford 4 starports + minor gas expenditure on upgrades on 2 bases.
In response to your PPS, you can afford ~1.3 BCs per base, so 1.3 x 3 is about 4. The reason you can't always make 4 BCs at once is because you really need to bank a lot of money (1600-1200) in order to create them simultaneously. However, you can afford it.
On March 08 2011 05:27 Senorcuidado wrote: I love any build that doesn't have to worry about losing the whole game to 6 sentries spamming forcefields, which is pretty much every TvP on Xelnaga Caverns if I decide to go bio. I've been having some really fun games with this style against robo builds but more and more Protoss are rushing right for high Templars lately. Feedback and storm do a lot of damage to banshees, and even though I can micro and return for repairs it doesn't take a lot to repel my harrassment and give him more time to build up. Of course all my marines aren't too great against the storms either. I suppose sometimes I might catch him without detection but usually the robo is up just in time. How do you handle this, or do you just stop banshee production at that point?
I suppose going for a contain, taking an early third, and switching battlecruisers could do well on that case, but a strong two base timing attack with stalkers and high temps is pretty scary. That's what killed me before the cruisers were online but I was pretty late with the transition. This whole situation will be waaay easier when amulet is gone.
As for the robo builds, the common reaction to marine/banshee has been Colossus/Phoenix, which I responded to by treating my marines like zerglings and rushing to 3/3. So you think collosus counters marines? I have a replay that proves otherwise . Obviously the bc switch is a more reliable response but if you can constantly pull their army out of position and keep the colossus numbers low by trading often, it is tons of fun.
I really haven't had too much trouble with templars. Just spread your banshees and storm is easily mitigated. HT rushes can be abused by sending your first banshee to do harass, which is what I love to do. It's very delayed, so Protoss is almost always unprepared for it and I normally get 10+ kills.
Don't tech into BCs unless you are pushing out, so that you can tech safely OR you have turtled in nicely and can defend any pushes while getting the BCs out. You are very vulnerable until you have 3-4 BCs out.
I've actually won a bunch of games without ever even research Stim or any other bio upgrades. All my gas gets sunk into Starport tech + upgrades and I can never find 100 spare gas to put into stim as I need it for something else. Combat shields is actually probably better than stim because it gives your marines more longevity, whereas Stim cuts it down dramatically, making it really easy for Colossi to destroy.
I feel like im doing something wrong with this build :/ I only loose when i face collosus based armys.
I dont really know the exact timings of when to get +3stargates or how many/when to get thors. Also when to attack. They have soo many collosi when i push.
But i think the main part is how i micro. My marines gets melted instantly and then there's just thors vs huge army. I fail at sniping obs every time. My marines just die before even reaching them. Then all my banshees die. sadpanda):
I would appriciate some help with that stuff C: (btw I'm just plat(stuck))
On March 09 2011 05:22 kusu wrote: I feel like im doing something wrong with this build :/ I only loose when i face collosus based armys.
I dont really know the exact timings of when to get +3stargates or how many/when to get thors. Also when to attack. They have soo many collosi when i push.
But i think the main part is how i micro. My marines gets melted instantly and then there's just thors vs huge army. I fail at sniping obs every time. My marines just die before even reaching them. Then all my banshees die. sadpanda):
I would appriciate some help with that stuff C: (btw I'm just plat(stuck))
Thanks !
I'll try my best to help you....
You get Thors out as soon as possible. Factory @ 100 Gas -> Tech Lab + Armory -> Thor x2. No delays, just get it as soon as you've gotten the gas after you expand.
For the Starports, you get them as soon as you get your Raven out and kill your opponent's observer, or loop around the base and double check that there isn't one to begin with. Then you put your starports down in the hardest to scout location of your base and position your Raven+army in a spot where an observer is most likely going to fly over to check that position. You do this because you want to deny scouting of your starports so that your opponent doesn't have enough time to get Stargate tech out.
When you push out, have all your units follow your slowest moving unit, Thor in this case. This will make it so everything engages at once. Your marines are meant to die. If you can snipe an observer or soak any stalker damage with them, you're using them correctly. Banshees need to cloak ASAP, Thors need to focus obs down and Raven should PDD twice and move out of stalker fire. Check out the "How to Engage" tab and post a replay!
On March 09 2011 05:27 Lomo wrote: I lost vs a phoenix builds why ? xD
Very descriptive....post a replay please.
My guess is because you didn't scout his phoenix and didn't get vikings. Probably also because you built more than 1 starport before you were able to deny scouting and Protoss reacted properly by going Stargate tech.
Hey so I was thinking more thors because thors > vikings for fighting phenoix, but is this not what you do because the thors die too quickly to kill the phenoix?
Also will the thors prioritize obs if they are in range?
Do you have any higher level replays to post? I've watched 4-5 and I've been suprised to see that although the toss often does scout the starports they almost never choose even close to the correct counter (phoenix, sentry, collosus, zealot). In pretty much all the games I watched your opponents choose to go things such as mass stalker, void ray, immortal, basically all the wrong things to go (voids are better once you get to BC of course).
QXC lost to white-ra with roughly your strategy yesterday in the IEM, I think he could have won though it was a good close game. (Then he does it again and gets completely owned when white ra is expecting it)
Heres some youtube links, they arent in english tho
On March 09 2011 06:47 statikg wrote: Hey so I was thinking more thors because thors > vikings for fighting phenoix, but is this not what you do because the thors die too quickly to kill the phenoix?
Also will the thors prioritize obs if they are in range?
Do you have any higher level replays to post? I've watched 4-5 and I've been suprised to see that although the toss often does scout the starports they almost never choose even close to the correct counter (phoenix, sentry, collosus, zealot). In pretty much all the games I watched your opponents choose to go things such as mass stalker, void ray, immortal, basically all the wrong things to go (voids are better once you get to BC of course).
I don't like getting more Thors because they are very very susceptible to dying to ground forces quickly. Their role is to force immortals, snipe observers and do as much tanking and damage as they can before they die. Phoenix are better dealt with using Vikings, rather than Thors with this build. A mech based army would benefit more from Thors, but not an air based one.
I also have a few replays I will be uploading today, which include new maps, defending 3 Gate Immortals pushes and how not to storm dodge xD. Much higher level than the previous ones!
On March 10 2011 09:46 statikg wrote: QXC lost to white-ra with roughly your strategy yesterday in the IEM, I think he could have won though it was a good close game. (Then he does it again and gets completely owned when white ra is expecting it)
Heres some youtube links, they arent in english tho + Show Spoiler +
QXC's build is similar in some ways to mine, such as the heavy Air based play style with a heavy focus on banshees, however it was more of a 1-1-2 style opener. I think it played out well and really shows that Air can compete in the late game, but thought it was executed poorly.
For an air build to work successfully, you really need that fast expand so you can crank out a large number of Air units quickly. QXC opted for a more traditional banshee first harass and then stayed on the Air based play. I like to deny scouting first, and then go air to have more of an element of surprise. Both styles work, but I believe mine to be more optimal because it doesn't give the Protoss as much time to get proper AA out. WhiteRa saw banshees from the start and played with that knowledge and was able to deflect his attacks easily.
But the most important thing to take away from these VODs is that Air is extremely powerful against Protoss.. I bet if QXC refined his build and played using Air more, he would be much, much harder to beat the next time around. A step towards the metagame change I know will come eventually!
I've been using bio into pure mech and this built lately and I maybe lost 3 of 20 games . I feel like going air is much more competitive to the protoss late game army. And if they remove the amulet upgrade soon, this will be killer! My losses were all due to storms that killed all my banshees by surprise or allins.
The best part about this built is the BC transition, though. Always fun to stomp them with 3/3 upgrades. Even void rays melt to yamato.
So, I hope more pros will go air style in the future, as I find it much more entertaining!
Looking forward to those new replays you'll upload
With this build, I have 95% win rate against Protoss and recently won the Giantbomb Community Tournament with heavy usage of this build
I can see why you have such a ridiculous win rate. I've recently started using your build and I have lost AT MOST 1 game over the pass few days, beating masters, diamonds, etc. Thanks for sharing, and yeah, looking forward to the new replays.
This is a very powerful build. Anyone who encounters it for the first time will be caught with they're pants down. Im just worried what will become of toss if they do carry through with the amulet removal. This will be the demolisher build. Sure it makes bio better lategame but im pretty sure it will be a bigger source of a lot more imbalance. BTW White-Ra is pretty awful with his storms :3
On March 09 2011 06:47 statikg wrote: Hey so I was thinking more thors because thors > vikings for fighting phenoix, but is this not what you do because the thors die too quickly to kill the phenoix?
Also will the thors prioritize obs if they are in range?
Do you have any higher level replays to post? I've watched 4-5 and I've been suprised to see that although the toss often does scout the starports they almost never choose even close to the correct counter (phoenix, sentry, collosus, zealot). In pretty much all the games I watched your opponents choose to go things such as mass stalker, void ray, immortal, basically all the wrong things to go (voids are better once you get to BC of course).
I don't like getting more Thors because they are very very susceptible to dying to ground forces quickly. Their role is to force immortals, snipe observers and do as much tanking and damage as they can before they die. Phoenix are better dealt with using Vikings, rather than Thors with this build. A mech based army would benefit more from Thors, but not an air based one.
I also have a few replays I will be uploading today, which include new maps, defending 3 Gate Immortals pushes and how not to storm dodge xD. Much higher level than the previous ones!
On March 10 2011 09:46 statikg wrote: QXC lost to white-ra with roughly your strategy yesterday in the IEM, I think he could have won though it was a good close game. (Then he does it again and gets completely owned when white ra is expecting it)
Heres some youtube links, they arent in english tho + Show Spoiler +
QXC's build is similar in some ways to mine, such as the heavy Air based play style with a heavy focus on banshees, however it was more of a 1-1-2 style opener. I think it played out well and really shows that Air can compete in the late game, but thought it was executed poorly.
For an air build to work successfully, you really need that fast expand so you can crank out a large number of Air units quickly. QXC opted for a more traditional banshee first harass and then stayed on the Air based play. I like to deny scouting first, and then go air to have more of an element of surprise. Both styles work, but I believe mine to be more optimal because it doesn't give the Protoss as much time to get proper AA out. WhiteRa saw banshees from the start and played with that knowledge and was able to deflect his attacks easily.
But the most important thing to take away from these VODs is that Air is extremely powerful against Protoss.. I bet if QXC refined his build and played using Air more, he would be much, much harder to beat the next time around. A step towards the metagame change I know will come eventually!
I downloaded one of the QXC replay packs and the guy literally gets banshees every single game so I can't imagine him having "more practice with air"... plus he probably has the best micro around. Regardless this thread makes me wonder if you could just get like 6 vikings and a bunch of banshees late game,scan, kill the observers, and cloak 10 banshees... what could a toss do? Off the top of my head....... I can't really think of anything besides putting cannons EVERYWHERE
On March 11 2011 00:20 Synystyr wrote: I also have a few replays I will be uploading today, which include new maps, defending 3 Gate Immortals pushes and how not to storm dodge xD. Much higher level than the previous ones!
That would be really great! Actually, my first post on TL. Yay! Anyways, I'm ranked in plat right now, but playing mostly vs >2k diamonds atm, cuz of my higher MMR and lack of people playing on the times i play, i guess. I've had lots of succes with this build before, but when i started playing vs diamonds, it started getting out of hand, it seems like i'm losing to every 1-base play, be it a 2-immortal push or a sentry heavy 1-2 base 9-10 min push with FFs on bunkers or 1 base colossus. The bunkers get melted by immortal even with repairs before i can really do any damage or the colossus with range just destroy them. May be my timings are off or something. But i really would like some replays vs this play, since like every game i play is like that for some reason. Also any tips would be welcome.
And another question, with the new map pool, i usually go with the stim expand build, which lacks the thor. Its much harder to snipe the observer vs a colossi-heavy army with only infantry, and they have another one lots of times. So would you prefer to sac the whole army to get the obs or just forget about it and get as much damage as possible? I really can't make the choice sometimes. Also, does the thor automatically hit the observer if its in range or you need to tell him to (if theres no other air, ofc.)? I actually didn't pay much attention to that since i don't use thor in my play all too much aside from TvZ. Thanks!
Hey guys! Sorry I haven't updated the thread in a bit...been very busy with PAX East. I actually got to use this build in a live showmatch at the convention with a nice large audience! So cool Thanks a crap ton to FoBuLouS for being an awesome team mate and recording my game play.
I'll upload replays tonight as soon as I finish with work. Thanks again and keep the feedback coming!
On March 09 2011 06:47 statikg wrote: Hey so I was thinking more thors because thors > vikings for fighting phenoix, but is this not what you do because the thors die too quickly to kill the phenoix?
Also will the thors prioritize obs if they are in range?
Do you have any higher level replays to post? I've watched 4-5 and I've been suprised to see that although the toss often does scout the starports they almost never choose even close to the correct counter (phoenix, sentry, collosus, zealot). In pretty much all the games I watched your opponents choose to go things such as mass stalker, void ray, immortal, basically all the wrong things to go (voids are better once you get to BC of course).
I don't like getting more Thors because they are very very susceptible to dying to ground forces quickly. Their role is to force immortals, snipe observers and do as much tanking and damage as they can before they die. Phoenix are better dealt with using Vikings, rather than Thors with this build. A mech based army would benefit more from Thors, but not an air based one.
I also have a few replays I will be uploading today, which include new maps, defending 3 Gate Immortals pushes and how not to storm dodge xD. Much higher level than the previous ones!
On March 10 2011 09:46 statikg wrote: QXC lost to white-ra with roughly your strategy yesterday in the IEM, I think he could have won though it was a good close game. (Then he does it again and gets completely owned when white ra is expecting it)
Heres some youtube links, they arent in english tho + Show Spoiler +
QXC's build is similar in some ways to mine, such as the heavy Air based play style with a heavy focus on banshees, however it was more of a 1-1-2 style opener. I think it played out well and really shows that Air can compete in the late game, but thought it was executed poorly.
For an air build to work successfully, you really need that fast expand so you can crank out a large number of Air units quickly. QXC opted for a more traditional banshee first harass and then stayed on the Air based play. I like to deny scouting first, and then go air to have more of an element of surprise. Both styles work, but I believe mine to be more optimal because it doesn't give the Protoss as much time to get proper AA out. WhiteRa saw banshees from the start and played with that knowledge and was able to deflect his attacks easily.
But the most important thing to take away from these VODs is that Air is extremely powerful against Protoss.. I bet if QXC refined his build and played using Air more, he would be much, much harder to beat the next time around. A step towards the metagame change I know will come eventually!
I downloaded one of the QXC replay packs and the guy literally gets banshees every single game so I can't imagine him having "more practice with air"... plus he probably has the best micro around. Regardless this thread makes me wonder if you could just get like 6 vikings and a bunch of banshees late game,scan, kill the observers, and cloak 10 banshees... what could a toss do? Off the top of my head....... I can't really think of anything besides putting cannons EVERYWHERE
Yes, if you do manage to snipe any means of detection, your banshees are pretty much unstoppable. That's why I like to use Thors to snipe them. Vikings are good but I've found I can use marines to do the job just as well and that means more banshees in my army :D
I didn't mean any disrespect to QXC, he's a great player and I emulate a lot of what he does into my own play style. I just think he could do air play in an more optimal manner, that's all ^.-
On March 11 2011 00:20 Synystyr wrote: I also have a few replays I will be uploading today, which include new maps, defending 3 Gate Immortals pushes and how not to storm dodge xD. Much higher level than the previous ones!
That would be really great! Actually, my first post on TL. Yay! Anyways, I'm ranked in plat right now, but playing mostly vs >2k diamonds atm, cuz of my higher MMR and lack of people playing on the times i play, i guess. I've had lots of succes with this build before, but when i started playing vs diamonds, it started getting out of hand, it seems like i'm losing to every 1-base play, be it a 2-immortal push or a sentry heavy 1-2 base 9-10 min push with FFs on bunkers or 1 base colossus. The bunkers get melted by immortal even with repairs before i can really do any damage or the colossus with range just destroy them. May be my timings are off or something. But i really would like some replays vs this play, since like every game i play is like that for some reason. Also any tips would be welcome.
And another question, with the new map pool, i usually go with the stim expand build, which lacks the thor. Its much harder to snipe the observer vs a colossi-heavy army with only infantry, and they have another one lots of times. So would you prefer to sac the whole army to get the obs or just forget about it and get as much damage as possible? I really can't make the choice sometimes. Also, does the thor automatically hit the observer if its in range or you need to tell him to (if theres no other air, ofc.)? I actually didn't pay much attention to that since i don't use thor in my play all too much aside from TvZ. Thanks!
Could you upload a replay or two so I can get a good feel for your execution? Immortal busts or super fast Colossi are the scariest to face, simply because they can blow through your bunkers very quickly. You need good scouting to see the push coming so you can prepare your SCVs to repair. If you are ready, it's very easy to stop. The attack comes after you Starport is up, so if you scout an early attack, go Banshee before Raven and with the mix of your bio, it should be enough to clean the attack up. Don't be afraid to pull SCVs to deal with the push, because an attack like this will put the Protoss extremely far behind as you FE'd while he did a 1 base timing push that is very much all-in.
To your second question, it is absolutely crucial to snipe the observer. I personally sac my entire ground army to kill it, simply because if I do, I win the battle. It is always worth it to kill the obs by any means. And I am not 100% sure on the threat priority of the observer vs Thor...sometimes it auto snipes it while other times I target fire. Will check and let you guys know!
UPDATE!! I've added a bunch of new replays for you guys. For those saying Templar tech beats this play, I've got a few replays to prove you wrong ^_^. My Immortal bust defense replays got corrupted somehow so I don't have those unfortunately . Also have replays showing how to defend a 2 Rax Expand and transition with this build.
I've also uploaded a couple of losses, one against a maphacker who got the proper unit composition to beat the push (even though I controlled terribly), and another where I epicfail against Storms >_>
Enjoy and leave any feedback here! Thanks!
On March 19 2011 11:35 LoCaD wrote: I think Avilo tried something like this against Socke but a worse Version with Proxy Starport and getting his Raven killed.
Socke owned him ofcourse but it does have some Resemblence
Can you get a replay to me? Or a link to a VOD? I'd love to check it out Thanks!
I'm actually surprised how strong banshees are, I find that I 1a most protoss I face now haha.. I think the key is to be effective in how you harass and getting your pdd in the right spots.
If you ever feel uncomfortable moving out, just drop a pdd and harass with 5+ banshees, it's ridiculous haha.
The thor will target the observer. I played with this build yesterday and checked the replay and the a-moved thor switched from ground to shoot the observer when it came close enough.
On March 19 2011 12:31 jdseemoreglass wrote: I just had to lol when I saw that 6/18 of these posts on this page were made by Synystyr, no offense.
At least you are keeping this thread alive and up to date. I've been trying to learn terran a bit recently so this will probably help me, thanks.
Haha well I like to answer the questions that people have and help out where I can I find this build is still relevant and am a firm believer that this style of play WILL become a large part of the TvP metagame. If you have any problems, this is the place to get them remedied ^_^. Good luck!
On March 19 2011 18:06 Shado. wrote: I'm actually surprised how strong banshees are, I find that I 1a most protoss I face now haha.. I think the key is to be effective in how you harass and getting your pdd in the right spots.
If you ever feel uncomfortable moving out, just drop a pdd and harass with 5+ banshees, it's ridiculous haha.
Heh, I wish I had the APM to harass on multiple fronts while keeping my macro up >_> That's one of the most powerful aspects of massing Air. You're able to abuse lack of mobility and detection and destroy your opponent's econ. Good stuff :D
On March 19 2011 18:33 StuartLove wrote: korean 4 gate baby <3
Definitely the worst 4 Gate choice against this build....yeah....
On March 19 2011 21:06 Mowr wrote: The thor will target the observer. I played with this build yesterday and checked the replay and the a-moved thor switched from ground to shoot the observer when it came close enough.
This is AWESOME! Thank you for checking on this! Actually super important Will keep that in mind, thanks again! :D
I just tried this build today for the first time, and I'm already beating top diamonds with it. (I'm a high plat Terran). Great way to deal with Colossi! Thanks a bunch!
i'v got few replays where i'm against protoss in mid diamond and i use this build. I found that this build is a BLAST against protoss that has never seen it before.
I've been using this exclusively at Master's level and I'm starting to really streamline the build.
Couple thoughts for discussion:
1. When to get upgrades and which ones to get? 2. How do you guys feel about getting an additional Raven? 3. How about Medivacs? 4. Banshees are obviously a part of your late game army but assuming you transition into late game, what is the ideal army composition that you want? Obviously you want Thors if it AA's observers, however do you think Marine/Thor/Banshee will be the ideal unit comp?
On March 20 2011 16:04 MaFFGeeK wrote: I just tried this build today for the first time, and I'm already beating top diamonds with it. (I'm a high plat Terran). Great way to deal with Colossi! Thanks a bunch!
No problem! Always good to hear that the build works well for others
On March 21 2011 02:22 jalostaja wrote: i'v got few replays where i'm against protoss in mid diamond and i use this build. I found that this build is a BLAST against protoss that has never seen it before.
Awesome! Will definitely check these out after I get out of work today Cheers!
On March 21 2011 07:36 Shado. wrote: I've been using this exclusively at Master's level and I'm starting to really streamline the build.
Couple thoughts for discussion:
1. When to get upgrades and which ones to get? 2. How do you guys feel about getting an additional Raven? 3. How about Medivacs? 4. Banshees are obviously a part of your late game army but assuming you transition into late game, what is the ideal army composition that you want? Obviously you want Thors if it AA's observers, however do you think Marine/Thor/Banshee will be the ideal unit comp?
1. It depends which BO you use. If you 2 Rax 3 Bunker expand, I've found it impossible to spend your gas on upgrades at all until you take a third. If you happen to slip on macro and find spare gas, I would go for Combat Shields and Ship Plating as the two upgrade priorities. Ship armor is going to be your best friend when you transition into BCs, and Combat Shields is better than Stim because Marines are only meatshields and it's better to have more health, rather than cut more of their HP away to only die in a couple shots from Colossi.
If you 2 Rax Stim Expand, then you'll have a bit more free gas since you don't go Armory+Thor. I'd grab Combat Shields after Stim and start an Armory for Ship Plating once you have the resources to. Engineering Bay upgrades really aren't too important, but I would go Armor over Weapons here because survivability is the most useful thing to have for your bio.
2. Again, gas constraints make it hard to really deviate too too much. A second Raven might not hurt that much however. Extra PDDs are always nice, but I suppose you have to find a proper timing window to get it out. You don't want to cut a Banshee for a Raven too early because you'll need the Banshees ASAP to defend any pushes. However, if you get your 2nd Raven too late, it won't have enough energy to be useful by the time you push. Will have to experiment with that!
3. Medivacs are useless in this build, simply because marines die too fast, they cut into Banshee production and they are just another unnecessary gas sink.
4. Early game - Marine + Bunker or Marine + Marauder. Midgame - Thor/Marine/Banshee/Raven or Marine/Marauder/Banshee/Raven Lategame - BC/Viking/Banshee with Marines sprinkled in.
You want a full transition into Air as soon you get your third base up. Vikings and BCs will be your AA, while Banshees do the brunt of your ground damage. BCs are excellent at tanking damage and drawing fire away from your other units, and also can take out high priority units like Void Rays or Carriers quickly. Vikings will also help tank against Phoenix damage and you can snipe observers just as well with them. If your Raven is still alive, then that is huge and you can use it continuously for detection and PDDs. However, if it dies, remember that it is a 200 gas investment to get another and may not be as beneficial as funding another BC or two Banshees.
Do you think it's a good idea to immediately research yamato cannon (then energy upgrade) right when fusion core finishes and you start to get BCs out? Btw, I have spent a long long time experimenting air builds and I would like to ask what you think about marauders + hellions + mass air. Marauders deal with stalkers quite well and are way more tanky than marines. Hellions do wonders against zealots and in an amount of 7 or more hellions, they are even cost effective against stalkers and in a big deathball vs deathball, the splash is really good (and I love to do BF hellion drops) and hellions are a huge mineral sink that are meatshields. Then ofcourse banshees take care of the rest and I usually throw down fusion core when I get my 3rd base and get ONE blind BC out incase they have any pheonixes out and 1 BC can tank a lot of phx atks (and I think BC has an atk priority higher than banshees/vikings against phx, but I may be wrong). I open with 1rax concusive FE then add in one more rax, getting stim before factory and researching BF right away while pumping out hellions from 1 fact and getting starport. When 1st medivac comes out, you'll have exactly 4 hellions and BF will finish just in time for a drop (I usually do massive damage with this drop). Then I throw down 1 more port getting raven on the 1st starport (stealing tech lab from the fact that researched Blue flame)and put reactor on 2nd starport to have the option of pumping dual vikings out incase they already switch tech to phx (before, I lost to phx tech switch at this moment because I didn't have a reactor port). While 2nd port is building, you'll have a lot of minerals and so it's a great time to expand (around 85 food) then I throw down 2 more ports (so 2rax + 1 fact + 4 ports). When my 3rd is up, I throw down fusion core and get armor upgrade, at this moment, I get reactor on my factory because of excess minerals and add tech lab to the 2nd rax to only pump out marauders because rines at this point are useless. Having such a gas heavy strat, I have excess minerals and I just keep making CCs one after one (after my 3rd is up and running) to turn into OCs so I can sacrifice SCVs later on to free up supply if game gets to that long (the first CC gets made into PF though for my 4th). Everytime after a battle, I would have like, nothing on ground cuz my rauders and hellions would mostly all die but I would have all my air units left. This is great because when you have your 3rd up and running for a while, you'll notice that you won't be able to have many air units while constantly pumping out 2rax rauders and reactor fact hellions so after the 1st battle with air units surviving and all ground dies, you'll be able to remax with air units to have a great ratio (of course you would still pump out rauders and hellions). I have tried thor + air but I don't like the immobility of thors and on big maps, I like to do pokes with banshees and hellions and drops because hellions are just so dam cost effective. I leave about 6 or so hellions by their base and if they move out to atk me,I'll just run in with my hellions to kill probes which can stall quite a bit of time cuz hellions are so fast. By the way, the 2nd port becomes a reactor to defend against any phx switch and if you DO NOT see any phx while reactor is already done on 2nd port, then just make 4 medivacs because you have been pumping out bio from 2 rax since the beginning of the game and you'll have a sizeable bio army (don't go to 6 medivacs, 4 is good enough to replace destroyed dropships and some healing for the bio army that will soon all die to the first battle anyway) and after 4 medivacs are out and you still don't see any phx, then just let the reactor port go idle while pumping out banshees/BCs from 3 other ports. This strat can defend against 2 gate robo, blink stalkers, 4gate, 2 base colli all in, DTs (because I just get a blind ebay->1 turret when I expand anyway to my natural, I always do this in all my TvP strats). I am still debating if i should stim my bio army or not in a maxed army battle because they have no upgrades and I think they're better for tanking than having reduced HP to do a bit more dmg that won't really matter anyway. The opening is basically 1 rax FE and phx opening will do quite a bit of dmg like against any other T openings. 2.7k masters (haven't been laddering much because I've been spending so much time theorycrafting). Also, I talked to you once ingame.
On March 22 2011 10:14 Trakky wrote: Do you think it's a good idea to immediately research yamato cannon (then energy upgrade) right when fusion core finishes and you start to get BCs out? Btw, I have spent a long long time experimenting air builds and I would like to ask what you think about marauders + hellions + mass air. Marauders deal with stalkers quite well and are way more tanky than marines. Hellions do wonders against zealots and in an amount of 7 or more hellions, they are even cost effective against stalkers and in a big deathball vs deathball, the splash is really good (and I love to do BF hellion drops) and hellions are a huge mineral sink that are meatshields. Then ofcourse banshees take care of the rest and I usually throw down fusion core when I get my 3rd base and get ONE blind BC out incase they have any pheonixes out and 1 BC can tank a lot of phx atks (and I think BC has an atk priority higher than banshees/vikings against phx, but I may be wrong). I open with 1rax concusive FE then add in one more rax, getting stim before factory and researching BF right away while pumping out hellions from 1 fact and getting starport. When 1st medivac comes out, you'll have exactly 4 hellions and BF will finish just in time for a drop (I usually do massive damage with this drop). Then I throw down 1 more port getting raven on the 1st starport (stealing tech lab from the fact that researched Blue flame)and put reactor on 2nd starport to have the option of pumping dual vikings out incase they already switch tech to phx (before, I lost to phx tech switch at this moment because I didn't have a reactor port). While 2nd port is building, you'll have a lot of minerals and so it's a great time to expand (around 85 food) then I throw down 2 more ports (so 2rax + 1 fact + 4 ports). When my 3rd is up, I throw down fusion core and get armor upgrade, at this moment, I get reactor on my factory because of excess minerals and add tech lab to the 2nd rax to only pump out marauders because rines at this point are useless. Having such a gas heavy strat, I have excess minerals and I just keep making CCs one after one (after my 3rd is up and running) to turn into OCs so I can sacrifice SCVs later on to free up supply if game gets to that long (the first CC gets made into PF though for my 4th). Everytime after a battle, I would have like, nothing on ground cuz my rauders and hellions would mostly all die but I would have all my air units left. This is great because when you have your 3rd up and running for a while, you'll notice that you won't be able to have many air units while constantly pumping out 2rax rauders and reactor fact hellions so after the 1st battle with air units surviving and all ground dies, you'll be able to remax with air units to have a great ratio (of course you would still pump out rauders and hellions). I have tried thor + air but I don't like the immobility of thors and on big maps, I like to do pokes with banshees and hellions and drops because hellions are just so dam cost effective. I leave about 6 or so hellions by their base and if they move out to atk me,I'll just run in with my hellions to kill probes which can stall quite a bit of time cuz hellions are so fast. By the way, the 2nd port becomes a reactor to defend against any phx switch and if you DO NOT see any phx while reactor is already done on 2nd port, then just make 4 medivacs because you have been pumping out bio from 2 rax since the beginning of the game and you'll have a sizeable bio army (don't go to 6 medivacs, 4 is good enough to replace destroyed dropships and some healing for the bio army that will soon all die to the first battle anyway) and after 4 medivacs are out and you still don't see any phx, then just let the reactor port go idle while pumping out banshees/BCs from 3 other ports. This strat can defend against 2 gate robo, blink stalkers, 4gate, 2 base colli all in, DTs (because I just get a blind ebay->1 turret when I expand anyway to my natural, I always do this in all my TvP strats). I am still debating if i should stim my bio army or not in a maxed army battle because they have no upgrades and I think they're better for tanking than having reduced HP to do a bit more dmg that won't really matter anyway. The opening is basically 1 rax FE and phx opening will do quite a bit of dmg like against any other T openings. 2.7k masters (haven't been laddering much because I've been spending so much time theorycrafting). Also, I talked to you once ingame.
Not to be rude, but you have to separate this into paragraphs, I got 1/3rd of the way through and my eyes glazed over a bit...
Any suggestions about how I can do this more smoothly?
Will let you know when I get back from work. I'm guessing it's a macro issue...no offense, but gold level macro is probably something that is holding you back at the moment. You should have at least 1 Banshee with cloak and a Raven with a PDD at that point. Regardless, I will look into it
Do you think it's a good idea to immediately research yamato cannon (then energy upgrade) right when fusion core finishes and you start to get BCs out? Btw, I have spent a long long time experimenting air builds and I would like to ask what you think about marauders + hellions + mass air. Marauders deal with stalkers quite well and are way more tanky than marines. Hellions do wonders against zealots and in an amount of 7 or more hellions, they are even cost effective against stalkers and in a big deathball vs deathball, the splash is really good (and I love to do BF hellion drops) and hellions are a huge mineral sink that are meatshields. Then ofcourse banshees take care of the rest and I usually throw down fusion core when I get my 3rd base and get ONE blind BC out incase they have any pheonixes out and 1 BC can tank a lot of phx atks (and I think BC has an atk priority higher than banshees/vikings against phx, but I may be wrong). I open with 1rax concusive FE then add in one more rax, getting stim before factory and researching BF right away while pumping out hellions from 1 fact and getting starport. When 1st medivac comes out, you'll have exactly 4 hellions and BF will finish just in time for a drop (I usually do massive damage with this drop). Then I throw down 1 more port getting raven on the 1st starport (stealing tech lab from the fact that researched Blue flame)and put reactor on 2nd starport to have the option of pumping dual vikings out incase they already switch tech to phx (before, I lost to phx tech switch at this moment because I didn't have a reactor port). While 2nd port is building, you'll have a lot of minerals and so it's a great time to expand (around 85 food) then I throw down 2 more ports (so 2rax + 1 fact + 4 ports). When my 3rd is up, I throw down fusion core and get armor upgrade, at this moment, I get reactor on my factory because of excess minerals and add tech lab to the 2nd rax to only pump out marauders because rines at this point are useless. Having such a gas heavy strat, I have excess minerals and I just keep making CCs one after one (after my 3rd is up and running) to turn into OCs so I can sacrifice SCVs later on to free up supply if game gets to that long (the first CC gets made into PF though for my 4th). Everytime after a battle, I would have like, nothing on ground cuz my rauders and hellions would mostly all die but I would have all my air units left. This is great because when you have your 3rd up and running for a while, you'll notice that you won't be able to have many air units while constantly pumping out 2rax rauders and reactor fact hellions so after the 1st battle with air units surviving and all ground dies, you'll be able to remax with air units to have a great ratio (of course you would still pump out rauders and hellions). I have tried thor + air but I don't like the immobility of thors and on big maps, I like to do pokes with banshees and hellions and drops because hellions are just so dam cost effective. I leave about 6 or so hellions by their base and if they move out to atk me,I'll just run in with my hellions to kill probes which can stall quite a bit of time cuz hellions are so fast. By the way, the 2nd port becomes a reactor to defend against any phx switch and if you DO NOT see any phx while reactor is already done on 2nd port, then just make 4 medivacs because you have been pumping out bio from 2 rax since the beginning of the game and you'll have a sizeable bio army (don't go to 6 medivacs, 4 is good enough to replace destroyed dropships and some healing for the bio army that will soon all die to the first battle anyway) and after 4 medivacs are out and you still don't see any phx, then just let the reactor port go idle while pumping out banshees/BCs from 3 other ports. This strat can defend against 2 gate robo, blink stalkers, 4gate, 2 base colli all in, DTs (because I just get a blind ebay->1 turret when I expand anyway to my natural, I always do this in all my TvP strats). I am still debating if i should stim my bio army or not in a maxed army battle because they have no upgrades and I think they're better for tanking than having reduced HP to do a bit more dmg that won't really matter anyway. The opening is basically 1 rax FE and phx opening will do quite a bit of dmg like against any other T openings. 2.7k masters (haven't been laddering much because I've been spending so much time theorycrafting). Also, I talked to you once ingame.
Holy wall of text. Please space out your post next time...=X
Yamato after BC production starts isn't absolutely necessary, since you won't be able to use it right away. I haven't experimented with the perfect timing yet. It's probably better to go energy before Yamato in all honesty.
Marauders and hellions don't synergize well with this composition because Marauders eat too much gas in the long term and cuts into Banshee production. Banshees trade perfectly well with Stalkers. Hellions are a good mineral dump, but Banshees again serve the same role as hellions because they can kill zealots just as quickly. The reason Marines are the mineral dump is because they serve as your AA and early defense units before you reach critical mass.
You also expand late and make a second starport before making the rest. This build is not 1 base. You need that fast expand to support your production. Your style is more like iEchoic's 1-1-2 which is fine, but not optimal for this particular build. The reason I don't like getting a second starport so early and not build the other two at the same time with it is because if the Protoss scouts two starports early, it illicits an earlier Phoenix response and that can really mess things up. One starport does not have the same effect. Better to deny scouting first and then throw down 3 more starports afterwards.
Against Phoenix, reactored vikings aren't necessary. You'll have marines to defend your bases and with spare minerals you can turret up easily. A quick BC transition with a couple Vikings sprinkled in will deal with the Phoenix just fine for your push. No need to make it difficult to transition back to Banshees. 4 Starports = 2 Starports with Reactors ^.-
I think the wall of text must have confused you. I go for 1rax FE. The 2nd starport goes down before the 3rd base, so it's not like iEchoic's 1-1-2 at all. I feel like banshees waste a lot of time killing the tanky zealots instead of focusing on big units or stalkers, that's why I get hellions to kill the zealots fast. It's quite bad for your banshees to attack zealots while stalkers are attacking your banshees. Also, I do get marines for early AA and defense (it's 2 rax remember?). I get my 4 starports way later than yours because of BF hellions, meaning that I need my 2nd port to be reactored to deal with any phx because I go for rauders and hellions meaning I barely have any AA mid game (that's why I might need dual vikings out) and if there's not anyway, I'll use it to get medivacs out anyway since I'll have a mid-sized bio army and can use medivacs for drops.
On March 22 2011 22:17 Trakky wrote: I think the wall of text must have confused you. I go for 1rax FE. The 2nd starport goes down before the 3rd base, so it's not like iEchoic's 1-1-2 at all. I feel like banshees waste a lot of time killing the tanky zealots instead of focusing on big units or stalkers, that's why I get hellions to kill the zealots fast. It's quite bad for your banshees to attack zealots while stalkers are attacking your banshees. Also, I do get marines for early AA and defense (it's 2 rax remember?). I get my 4 starports way later than yours because of BF hellions, meaning that I need my 2nd port to be reactored to deal with any phx because I go for rauders and hellions meaning I barely have any AA mid game (that's why I might need dual vikings out) and if there's not anyway, I'll use it to get medivacs out anyway since I'll have a mid-sized bio army and can use medivacs for drops.
Sorry, I honestly did get very lost in the wall of text =[ Can you blame me?
Banshees will never focus Zealots unless you focus fire with them. Stalker threat priority is higher because the Banshees are actually getting attacked by them.
If your style works for you, then by all means keep doing it! I'd love to see a couple replays I just don't like medivacs + marauders because they cut into Banshee production. I don't want to go halfway in between with Air and Bio because it's just a mix I don't find to be strong enough. You either have to pick one or the other IMHO. Hellions kill zealots quickly, but so do banshees so I just feel like it's overkill. Hellion drops are great though. One of the most powerful economic killers for sure. I just don't prefer them, that's all!
It's very important to not do stupid flowers. I've played terrans or observed games where terrans make a flower, and one storm is super effective. Overall, watch out for storms, and this build is deadly!
On March 22 2011 22:29 SoftSoap wrote: It's very important to not do stupid flowers. I've played terrans or observed games where terrans make a flower, and one storm is super effective. Overall, watch out for storms, and this build is deadly!
Actually, I'm gonna try going 2rax stim expo (instead of 1rax conc FE) and not go for any rauders at all and instead get 2 rax reactor instead and see how that turns out. That reason i went for rauders was because I expand and tech so fast that I need some bio army out to defend against all types of strats/openings by P (going 1rax FE into very fast BF hellions and also fast starport, that's really risky imo to any 2base all ins). The guy who wrote before my wall of text is also complaining about 2 base colli all in and I won't even get out a raven or any banshees out in time to defend any 2base all in because I first need to get that medivac out lol for BF drop. You can hold it off because of the hella fast 4port (I mean, you save resources to put them all at once to power units out a bit later) while my BF hellions will be almost useless to a 2 base very standard colli all in. I really think this style (I mean air play) has such a potential and with BC movespeed buff and amulet gone and stim timing atk delayed, I think this strat is even more viable than before.
What do you think of getting tanks to defend against everything to be able to easily get starports out, even it it's quite a bit delayed. The problem when I tried using your strat is the timing window where if anything comes, I'll probably lose (before the 4 port produces any banshees) because all I have will be 1 raven that's barely got a pdd, and the rest are marines with like, 2 marauders mixed in. A good P will attack immediately when they see 4 ports going down and I really don't like doing the 3 bunker strat because of the new maps so I won't have any thor out to deny scouting obs. I don't even think the 3 bunkers make a tight wall anymore on any of the new maps.
Also one more quick question, in your replay called TvP 2RaxExpand vs Void Rays, why did you go for thors even though you opened with 2rax conc first then stim then expo? Is it just because you had to spend a lot of minerals on turrets/ebay so you had excess gas that can be put into thors?
Will let you know when I get back from work. I'm guessing it's a macro issue...no offense, but gold level macro is probably something that is holding you back at the moment.
Yep i'm sure my macro is terrible in that game, not least due to learning a new build order.
That said I had a similar amount of units to your replay on metropolis at 10mins, only thing I was missing was the raven. I think I can get a banshee out if my macro was a little better. Do you think that might swing the battle?
On March 22 2011 23:28 Trakky wrote: What do you think of getting tanks to defend against everything to be able to easily get starports out, even it it's quite a bit delayed. The problem when I tried using your strat is the timing window where if anything comes, I'll probably lose (before the 4 port produces any banshees) because all I have will be 1 raven that's barely got a pdd, and the rest are marines with like, 2 marauders mixed in. A good P will attack immediately when they see 4 ports going down and I really don't like doing the 3 bunker strat because of the new maps so I won't have any thor out to deny scouting obs. I don't even think the 3 bunkers make a tight wall anymore on any of the new maps.
You should throw down at least two bunkers at your natural if you're Stim expanding to help complement your early defenses while you are teching. That will help a lot with dealing with any kind of timing push.
Again, I really don't like to invest in too many other gas heavy units because it just delays the Air tech more and more. Bio works as well as tanks does for me.
And your bunker wall off doesn't have to be completely sealed off on maps you can use this on. Sure, the Protoss could still do a gutsy runby, but the narrowness of the path that they'd have to take is such that you can pick off the majority of units while he tries to circumvent the bunkers and you can just clean it all up by deploying the marines back out
Also, you can still deny scouting with constant raven/marine movement around your base. The thor based play is just more sturdy and can send misinformation to the Protoss, but is not the only way to kill observers.
On March 22 2011 23:54 Trakky wrote: Also one more quick question, in your replay called TvP 2RaxExpand vs Void Rays, why did you go for thors even though you opened with 2rax conc first then stim then expo? Is it just because you had to spend a lot of minerals on turrets/ebay so you had excess gas that can be put into thors?
I felt behind because my push was pretty much hard countered by the Void Rays so I needed to turtle and get some beefy units out. With Stargate prevalent and playing someone who knows my style, I figured Thors would help a lot and I ended the game with a PDD timing push. Thor was pretty much out of the blue. I knew he was teching so the timing push was perfect to catch him when he wasn't ready
Will let you know when I get back from work. I'm guessing it's a macro issue...no offense, but gold level macro is probably something that is holding you back at the moment.
Yep i'm sure my macro is terrible in that game, not least due to learning a new build order.
That said I had a similar amount of units to your replay on metropolis at 10mins, only thing I was missing was the raven. I think I can get a banshee out if my macro was a little better. Do you think that might swing the battle?
Cheers for looking at it.
Np, You'll have an analysis in a few hours
1 Banshee does so much when defending, you have no idea
I just got a really good idea to fight this build. making a warp prism and then taking your first colossus and/or immortals and all of you gateway units directly into Ts main, it might work for the same reason that blink works . I am going to try it next time i ladder and see this build, if anybody else could try it and see how it goes it would be much appreciated. I don't think you can beat anything with HTs anymore so going allin like this might be the only option once you 2gate robo expand.
Hmm, build seems a lot stronger now with the KA nerf. Before I was relying on warp-in templars to storm banshees, and even then whether I was about to die or not came down to Warp-in Storms. Might just 2base all-in when I see the ports going down, this build is too much of a bitch to handle late game without KA-Templars :S
Any suggestions about how I can do this more smoothly?
Okay, I got a chance to look over your replay.
You lost because of macro. I'll point out a few things you can fix.
Your orbital was slightly late, better to get it at 15 supply as soon as your barracks finishes. You didn't put guys on gas right away. You need to start collecting gas ASAP. Research Stim the moment you hit 100 Gas. You need that ASAP as well to defend. Once you expand, you need to get your factory immediately afterwards so you can get your Banshees out. You were supply blocked multiple time and floating a lot of money. You can remedy this by getting extra production facilities, extra refineries and more depots. Constant SCV production wasn't there. You need that to quickly saturate your two bases. No scouting! You had no idea what Protoss was doing the whole time and were completely caught off guard by his 1 base colossus rush.
It was pretty much an accumulation of little mistakes that snowballed into a large deficit. If you had better macro, you would have had more units and the banshees to defend. Don't get disheartened, it was only your first time with the build. Keep practicing!
On March 23 2011 00:43 Gecko wrote: I just got a really good idea to fight this build. making a warp prism and then taking your first colossus and/or immortals and all of you gateway units directly into Ts main, it might work for the same reason that blink works . I am going to try it next time i ladder and see this build, if anybody else could try it and see how it goes it would be much appreciated. I don't think you can beat anything with HTs anymore so going allin like this might be the only option once you 2gate robo expand.
Yeah Warp Prism past the bunkers can be a real pain in the ass to deal with, but by the time you have your army + Prism, I should have a couple Thors, a Raven with 1 PDD and hopefully 1+ banshees along with my marines. Your attack is very much allin so if I can stop it (and it's possible with this unit combo), then it's pretty much a go ahead to the win. I think it comes down to micro and spotting the drop early at this point.
On March 23 2011 00:45 Dommk wrote: Hmm, build seems a lot stronger now with the KA nerf. Before I was relying on warp-in templars to storm banshees, and even then whether I was about to die or not came down to Warp-in Storms. Might just 2base all-in when I see the ports going down, this build is too much of a bitch to handle late game without KA-Templars :S
YAY NO KA TEMPLARS! :D I've been able to really abuse timings pushes before too many storms build up now. Easy stuff :D
There's also a timing window after my first Banshee where I can hard tech switch to mass Thors if I scout a HT rush. I'd have only commited to one banshee and one starport so I can easily mass Thors instead and roll the Protoss because Storm doesn't hurt Thors enough :D
Do you have any replays against 1 base attacks like 4 gate, 3 gate robo, etc? I've been having trouble using a 2 rax bunker defense when the P force fields my bunkers to block repairing.
On March 23 2011 09:36 takkatakka wrote: Do you have any replays against 1 base attacks like 4 gate, 3 gate robo, etc? I've been having trouble using a 2 rax bunker defense when the P force fields my bunkers to block repairing.
Unfortunately all my good ones got corrupted I'll get more replays of this as soon as it happens though, for sure!
On March 23 2011 11:53 Doz wrote: It would appear the replays have stopped working as of patch 1.3, at least for me. It opens SC2 but to a plain black screen. =(
It's because of the new version from the patch. You can still view them however. You need to download the replays and then add them to your Starcraft 2 Replays folder. You can do a search to find out exactly how to do that...I play on a Mac so I'm sure the folder pathing is different on a PC. You'll be able to load them in game afterwards however. Good luck!
A question about build order 1, why don't just go 2rax FE constant marine production into 4port banshees right away and skip thors. Wouldn't this also work?
On March 23 2011 16:31 Trakky wrote: A question about build order 1, why don't just go 2rax FE constant marine production into 4port banshees right away and skip thors. Wouldn't this also work?
Because getting Thors does not delay the banshees, helps you defend early pushes and it helps you to kill observers in your base and when you push more efficiently.
By far the best aspect of going Thors however, is that it relays misinformation to the Protoss. When you kill the observer, all the Protoss will have seen is 1-2 Thors, mass marines and a Raven. This points to a PDD timing attack with Thor/Marine and will illicit a Zealot/Immortal response. You then go into 4 port Banshee play and completely catch the Protoss off guard with the wrong unit composition. GG!
Is it possible to go 2rax expand, get combat shield instead and only mass marines (the 2rax stim poke is not that strong anymore cuz of the 30 second stim nerf), having CONSTANT marine production and getting delayed thors (compare to your build order #1) and then same strat to 4ports? Cuz I really don't feel like defending with 13 marines with no stim/shell for 9 mins is viable against good opponents. So I was thinking of having a safer early game with a little delayed thors/4ports. Just wondering what you think of this, and I'm sure you must have thought about it before.
On March 23 2011 20:51 Trakky wrote: Is it possible to go 2rax expand, get combat shield instead and only mass marines (the 2rax stim poke is not that strong anymore cuz of the 30 second stim nerf), having CONSTANT marine production and getting delayed thors (compare to your build order #1) and then same strat to 4ports? Cuz I really don't feel like defending with 13 marines with no stim/shell for 9 mins is viable against good opponents. So I was thinking of having a safer early game with a little delayed thors/4ports. Just wondering what you think of this, and I'm sure you must have thought about it before.
Which 2 Rax expand are you talking about? If it's #2, then you never stop making units with your double barracks and you add a couple well placed bunkers near your natural to help defend early timing pushes. Otherwise, 13 marines in bunkers with your tech units to defend with on maps where you can close your natural off completely is enough. It's all about surviving on a razor's edge early to have an explosive midgame.
I have been thinking about going Shields instead of Stim now because of the nerf...I haven't tested it but I'll have to try it. My main concern is that any player with decent Stalker/Zealot micro will be able to take on infinite amounts of unstimmed marines. I'll update with more on that later...
And, the number one way I've found myself losing games is because my tech gets delayed. It's not a good idea to delay tech for a stronger early game defense because you already DO have enough and your defenses become much weaker as time goes on due to the critical mass of units your opponent is building. Better to tech so you can match him in army size.
I was talking about buildorder number 1 with only making 13 marines. What I asked was what if we constantly make marines and get shell too and go for defensive 100% since that's what you do too in #1 and have delayed tech for a bit (125 gas and constant marine production might delay it a lot actually, I'll try it out right now though). Because having only 13 marines for so long I feel so scared (until thor is out) and ofcourse its all map dependant (but I would rather find a solid opening that can be used on all mid sized to big sized maps). Your response was excellent though.
Hmmmmm there must be something wrong. I "winged" the strat I talked about and started my raven and thor at 8:40, which is almost the same time you start those 2 units with build order #1 (around 8:35 on average according to your replays) but I have constant marine production (around 17 when my thor/raven starts building) and they have combat shield.
On March 23 2011 21:28 Trakky wrote: Hmmmmm there must be something wrong. I "winged" the strat I talked about and started my raven and thor at 8:40, which is almost the same time you start those 2 units with build order #1 (around 8:35 on average according to your replays) but I have constant marine production (around 17 when my thor/raven starts building) and they have combat shield.
Please link replay. I'll check it out when I get out of work today. Could be onto something here I suppose
Wow, you seem to always be online haha, <3 it. This time I got 8:10 with 15 marines, but I know I can get it faster. Gonna link some replays when I can get it "optimized"
Ok so I think going combat shield is pretty useless, because I only have 13 marines at the same time you have 13 marines so having combat shield wouldn't benefit me a lot since I only have 13 marines and thor/raven is already coming out 30 secs after I land my OC at nat (start at 8:10) which means bunkers might not even be needed at nat since if I skip CS, I can prob get thor to come out at same time OC lands (the gas at nat won't matter because in your replays, you get gas after OC finishes anyway, so it's the same thing). Going to try without CS now.
CS is only really useful if you have extra marines. Otherwise, they are inside bunkers and not really being physically damaged, therefore the health buff doesn't play a role. That means that you're short 100 gas more than you need to be. Maybe just opt for extra marines and see how that plays out?
I got my first win with it last night. Feels good to win a TvP that goes past 10-15 minutes =D
I think it is still strong after the +30 seconds to stim. Applying early pressure is more difficult; I think conc shell harassment with a marauder and 1-2 marines is possible, but I'd rather turtle and just focus on my macro.
To people who aren't finding much success: it seems to me that your macro needs to be really really solid for this to work (since it is a relatively complicated BO, there are lots of places to screw up). You also need the APM to be able to fend off 1 base pushes while still keeping your macro going.
I seriously recommend practicing the BO against the computer (set to "very hard"-- the "insane" comp is able to tech unrealistically quick) until it is really smooth.
On March 23 2011 22:36 HEROwithNOlegacy wrote: So you enjoy you 4 starport banshee all in, what happens if they go for a pheonix opener?
From the OP:
A fast Stargate with lots of Phoenix do very well against this build, along with either chargelots or Colossi to clean up the marines. However, with two Thors in your initial push, Phoenix can get shut down very quickly as long as you snipe the obs and let your banshees reign free.
Also, if your opponent sees Thors right before you start to deny his scouting, he's probably going to switch to immortals or Void Rays. If you're still worried about it, cut a few marines and put up turrets.
On March 23 2011 22:36 HEROwithNOlegacy wrote: So you enjoy you 4 starport banshee all in, what happens if they go for a pheonix opener?
I don’t consider this build an all in, a tech switch is difficult with 4 starports up I'll give you that, but what tech switch for any race is easy? Anyway If you build a Reaper after your 1st marine and use it to scout and then see Stargates Obviously you’re not going to build 4 ports and Banshee's… In that case I would switch to a more Bio heavy army and mix in some Thors… The key is to scout, he said this is an Anti Colossus build, not a counter to every Protoss unit build…
Due to the low range of banshees compared to vikings protosses with high level control will shut a build like this down soundly. If by chance the protoss opens robo and then switches into dual stargate he can actually destroy banshees and force cloak to be wasted b4 the push even starts.
Will probably work up to a 3200 masters level max, though. Every counterargument involves "thor killing observers, so banshees can cloak" or "theres so many marines". Theres very little emphasis on the composition of the protoss, as well as the fact a protoss can hold this composition early on, and hold the first push using cannons while teching templars.
On March 23 2011 22:36 HEROwithNOlegacy wrote: So you enjoy you 4 starport banshee all in, what happens if they go for a pheonix opener?
All-in? I disagree.
If you want to see how I deal with Phoenix openers, check out this livecast I played at PAX East against another Master level player. Phoenix openers are not the end-all to this build. + Show Spoiler +
On March 23 2011 22:49 FuSioN722 wrote: Due to the low range of banshees compared to vikings protosses with high level control will shut a build like this down soundly. If by chance the protoss opens robo and then switches into dual stargate he can actually destroy banshees and force cloak to be wasted b4 the push even starts.
Will probably work up to a 3200 masters level max, though. Every counterargument involves "thor killing observers, so banshees can cloak" or "theres so many marines". Theres very little emphasis on the composition of the protoss, as well as the fact a protoss can hold this composition early on, and hold the first push using cannons while teching templars.
You are right in sense. Players with excellent control shouldn't lose their Colossi to banshees. However, colossi are EXTREMELY low on the priority list of units to kill when I push. The banshees are meant to deal with ground armies and make Colossi useless against my composition. Forcing the Protoss to commit the deep down a tech tree that isn't suitable with dealing with mass airplay is exactly what I want. I play on sacrificing my entire ground army every time I push.
Against a Protoss who scouts this early and transitions into Phoenix, I will easily scout this and respond with fast BCs. With the speed buff implemented now, travel time reduction with a timing attack consisting of fewer Banshees but more marines, vikings and a Raven with 2 PDDs will end the game. Check this livecast out that I played to win the finals of the Giantbomb Community Tournament when my opponent opens Phoenix. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/12361326(Game starts at ~2:00)
Finally, High Templars are not the hard counter to Banshees either. While Storm can seriously crush your pushes, players using this style of play need to be efficient at storm dodging. I used to lose many games because my banshees would stack and Storms would kill all my banshees at once...not good. I've since then learned to storm dodge much more effectively. If I see that cannons are at your front door when I push, I will either pull back and macro/deny expansions or use my higher mobility factor and attack what I can on the sides of you base.
And observer sniping is really powerful in any situation, regardless of Protoss unit composition.
Hi synystyr, i really like this build. I havent won alot with it just yet though. I just need to refine and get worked into my head. The biggest problem is storm and finding the observer? Any tips on these things? Also, my ravens tend to get sniped so i wont have any detection. And if i keep it back its sometimes out of the detection range of the obs.
Yeah, i have kinda the same problem as BK. I thinks it kinda hard to target the observer. Especially if they have collosus or voids which they can hide under. Do you have any tips?
On March 25 2011 06:23 BKSandland wrote: Hi synystyr, i really like this build. I havent won alot with it just yet though. I just need to refine and get worked into my head. The biggest problem is storm and finding the observer? Any tips on these things? Also, my ravens tend to get sniped so i wont have any detection. And if i keep it back its sometimes out of the detection range of the obs.
On March 25 2011 07:43 kusu wrote: Yeah, i have kinda the same problem as BK. I thinks it kinda hard to target the observer. Especially if they have collosus or voids which they can hide under. Do you have any tips?
Hey guys. I am usually pretty good about manually clicking the observer. It's just takes practice to spot it and then be able to focus it down quickly. I would recommend getting a viking or two if it's really that much trouble however. Also, you want to drop the 2 PDDs with your Raven and then quickly move it behind your army. The detection range on the Raven is actually rather long
And against Storm, I have uploaded a couple new replays. It's all about storm dodging via stutter flying with your banshees. Snipe any templars early with harass if possible, every little bit helps.
This is wonderful. I have been using BC in 4v4 since 1.3 and I have won 10 out of 11 games. BC's are blazing fast. Thank you for this build that will fuk up protoss. All protoss should DIE. They are the most despicable race with the most underhanded people playing them because their scouts never scout. Rather they hide and do underhanded shitt.
By the way, I would say the weakness to build order #1 is warp prism DTs because the raven comes after 2 warp ins and you wont have enough scans to cover your 2 bases. Plus, this opening requires as many mules as possible.
On March 25 2011 11:35 longtang wrote: This is wonderful. I have been using BC in 4v4 since 1.3 and I have won 10 out of 11 games. BC's are blazing fast. Thank you for this build that will fuk up protoss. All protoss should DIE. They are the most despicable race with the most underhanded people playing them because their scouts never scout. Rather they hide and do underhanded shitt.
Hey, we have scans that cost us even less and zero risk to use. Less hatred towards Protoss, they're really not thaaaaaat bad
Regardless, enjoy the build!
On March 25 2011 11:38 Trakky wrote: By the way, I would say the weakness to build order #1 is warp prism DTs because the raven comes after 2 warp ins and you wont have enough scans to cover your 2 bases. Plus, this opening requires as many mules as possible.
I have been playing and massing games specifically against DT expand builds with my practice partner at the moment. The DTs hit right before the Raven arrives, so you need to build 2+ scans around the 8:30 mark in anticipation for this. Keep as many SCVs alive and once the Raven is out, you can clean anything that you missed up. If Protoss goes Warp Prism DTs, it is a 1 Base allin because it is so expensive to tech so deep two trees. The game is won as soon as the Raven is out.
Check out the most recent replays for examples.
I will also be uploading a small replay pack tomorrow that feature:
Defense against MC Forcefield style 4 Gate Defense against regular 4 Gate with 2 Rax Stim Expand MASS SPEED BCS ON 5 BASES (Unstoppable!) Regular vs Colossus games to nail in how bad this build beats Robo tech
Includes: Beating 4 Gate on with 2 Rax Stim Expand -> 4 Port Beating 3 Gate Sentry Push with MC style FFs vs Bunker Expand Beating Mass Phoenix/Colossi deathball WITH EASE. (ft. battlecruisers!) MASS BC REPLAY! A couple replays on how to play on the newer maps.
So after my post about working on a new opening, with the same goal in the end, I have played like 30 TvPs in the last 3 days and had a winrate of about 90% against 3k masters so I got really happy and wanted to post here about the BO and stuff; however, it saddened me so much that I realized later today that it can't hold most of 1 gate all ins, namely the VR rush and the 3gate robo.
Everything was perfect and it was even DT-proof and DT warp prism proof (because the timing for my raven and thor is much earlier than yours and the tight wall in up my ramp provides a solid wall against normal DTs). Ofcourse when I play against my friends, they won't 1base all ins so it was mostly all macro games which I said I won about 90% of them. Now I need to tweak it quite a bit to test against all the all ins first.
It WAS basically 1 rax FE with gas, add in 2 bunkers (first one before the Stalker Z poke and 2nd one before the 4gate begins and SD in middle to have a tight wall against DT). So I thought 2 bunkers and 8 marines would be enough to hold off 4gate but against pro Ps, it's a nono. Then I get another gas at around 27 and fact right after. My expo is inbase until I get my thor out because it's much safer (bunkers at top of ramp is so much more powerful than normal) and my OC would finish around 40 game seconds or so before 1st thor is out so it's not too bad. I would use a scan when my 2nd OC finishes to check his nat if he expo or not, if he hasn't, i'll add 2 more bunkers (total 4 now). But it's still not enough for 3gate robo all in
The reason I really liked this opening was because of the BoX style it has, people see 1 rax 1 gas OC and then the scout would die. This means that toss has no idea if I'm doing normal MM, or this strat, or sjow's dual fact play. Also, I only need to scout P's location and if he expo or not with my 2nd OC scan because no matter what P is doing, I would still follow this opening strictly. But ofcourse it doesn't work anymore because I just don't have enough units to defend. I'll get back to you once I improve/tweak it.
I want to add some pointers to the unit comp against P's unit comp.
Against mass zealots/phx: do NOT attack, get BCs out asap and just turtle. If you decide to attack him, any P at high masters level would sweep in your base with mass phx and kill your whole mineral line before you even reach half the distance. Also, you would likely lose this battle and if you try to retreat, they'll just chase you the whole way. However, if your defending, you have the defender's advantage in new units rallying and mass repairing.
Against mass HTs (more than 4): EMP your own BCs.
Against VRs + phx with some gateways: do NOT do the 2base timing atk with 2 thors, ~11 banshees and rines with double pdd. You need BCs out asap. FF the VRs asap (if you have have yamato, even better but that's unlikely). Be on the defensive side, so you can pull scvs to mass repair and phx/VRs with small gateway army sux against mass repair. Make sure you FF the VR because fully charged VRs hurt BCs and thors a lot. Put your marines at the back and let your banshees/BCs go in first, then bring the marines in, because VRs/phx just suck against marines.
Against 2 base 2 stargate VRs: I always lose when I attack with the timing attack, so what I do is get an ebay asap, get 2-3 turrets at my nat depending on how long the game has gone by and just turtle 100% and double expand while getting fusion core and a round or 2 of vikings out. This means that if P attacks, I'll just roll him over and if he doesn't attack, then it's better for me than him because I double expand and with BCs with yamato, I'll have a higher chance of winning at this stage rather than a head on fight on 2 bases.
*IMPORTANT* When you have vikings out and decides to turtle, do the viking flower by your wall (turrets) by doing a patrol on a spot and shift+stop before the units get there. It's soooo helpful but will probably be patched in after 1.3
Against P that are smart when they see a raven and fights in the middle so they can run away from PDD: If they're not getting phx, get all your banshees and attack their base, this makes them retreat to their base and then charge in with your ground army so your PDD will be effective.
I think I have more but I can only think of these so far.
I'm having most trouble against carriers, I don't know if I should stall/turtle and let game goes to 4-5 bases or try to end it early. My 2 base timing attack gets rolled over (about 4 banshees, and like 8 vikings). So I'm debating whether I should get turrets up (cuz they're so dam cost efficient against air) and double expand or try to end it early. But toss is like Zerg, if you let P goes unpressured, his macro will skyrocket and he can remax real fast after the 200/200 battle.
On March 26 2011 22:58 Trakky wrote: So after my post about working on a new opening, with the same goal in the end, I have played like 30 TvPs in the last 3 days and had a winrate of about 90% against 3k masters so I got really happy and wanted to post here about the BO and stuff; however, it saddened me so much that I realized later today that it can't hold most of 1 gate all ins, namely the VR rush and the 3gate robo.
Still, it looks very promising. Do you have a replay of a macro game, and one where you lose to a one base all-in?
Well it's just not possible to hold off any 1 base all ins (even with top of the ramp advantage) with maybe 9 marines and 4 bunkers (added 2 more when scouted no expo). But saying it works in a macro game but not against all ins mean that it's a bad strat because then I can go 15 CC every game and say "oh, if it's a macro game, I win 90% of the time, but if my opponent goes any 1 base all in, I lose."
Hey Synistr, i stumbled across this a couple of days ago and have been fanatically trying to get it to work! i had some limited success... and boy was that an AWESOME feeling destroying his army with my cloaked banshees. the fool didn't even have an observer! eeeeee ;D
but unforuntately i have been savagely beaten many a time... often a simple well done 4gate beats me, often im not repairing the bunkers quick enough, quick void rays beat me too, protoss are just so pesky with their stupid pylons everywhere ^___^
anyway i want to become a student of this build so i can bring back some self respect to the terran race and do my bit to SMACK some PROTOSS! going to watch your replay pack na. thanks! :D
PS: I got raped pretty bad last game i tried it... he had void rays... i'm still a learning player, silver/gold, was my sub par macro the reason i lost here, or does other guy's build rape it? after watching it back maybe i should have sent my marines to harass straight away since there mighta been a window of opportunity?
I tried a variation of this build, but throwing a CC at 15. I throw it down in an akward spot of my base, so my opponent get confused for a moment and search for proxies. First thing I get afterwards are 3 wall-in barracks then pumping marines. I then lift the barracks one by one to build bunkers at the ramp. Get Tech+Stim. I only get the expo when I have enough ground army (8 minute mark). It can seem late, but it will get insta-saturation since you produced SCVs from 2 CC since that time. It's only when I get the natural and it's gas that I start the 4 starports.
Yep, worked good so far. The economic advantage of CC first is awesome, even if you don't grab the natural straight away, Mules + double scvs production is so worth it. Could be a little weak to 4gate / 3gate robo, so you have to be good with your barracks/bunkers timing, and always have scvs ready to repair (set 3 of them to a control group).
On March 28 2011 00:06 jimbob615 wrote: Hey Synistr, i stumbled across this a couple of days ago and have been fanatically trying to get it to work! i had some limited success... and boy was that an AWESOME feeling destroying his army with my cloaked banshees. the fool didn't even have an observer! eeeeee ;D
but unforuntately i have been savagely beaten many a time... often a simple well done 4gate beats me, often im not repairing the bunkers quick enough, quick void rays beat me too, protoss are just so pesky with their stupid pylons everywhere ^___^
anyway i want to become a student of this build so i can bring back some self respect to the terran race and do my bit to SMACK some PROTOSS! going to watch your replay pack na. thanks! :D
PS: I got raped pretty bad last game i tried it... he had void rays... i'm still a learning player, silver/gold, was my sub par macro the reason i lost here, or does other guy's build rape it? after watching it back maybe i should have sent my marines to harass straight away since there mighta been a window of opportunity?
I will take a look at this for you when I get home from work ^_^
Like you mentioned, I am more than sure that it is just a macro issue, but I'll definitely look into it and give you more details.
On March 28 2011 00:06 drcatellino wrote: I tried a variation of this build, but throwing a CC at 15. I throw it down in an akward spot of my base, so my opponent get confused for a moment and search for proxies. First thing I get afterwards are 3 wall-in barracks then pumping marines. I then lift the barracks one by one to build bunkers at the ramp. Get Tech+Stim. I only get the expo when I have enough ground army (8 minute mark). It can seem late, but it will get insta-saturation since you produced SCVs from 2 CC since that time. It's only when I get the natural and it's gas that I start the 4 starports.
Yep, worked good so far. The economic advantage of CC first is awesome, even if you don't grab the natural straight away, Mules + double scvs production is so worth it. Could be a little weak to 4gate / 3gate robo, so you have to be good with your barracks/bunkers timing, and always have scvs ready to repair (set 3 of them to a control group).
15 CC is just way too risky against Protoss to me...I haven't successfully pulled it off personally. But if it does work for you, then you get that awesome economic advantage and can get your Starports out sooner. What I dislike about your style here is that you get a 15 CC, but you don't utilize it till very late. A 2 Rax CC sounds more economic than your opener simply because I take my natural right away. Also, you are much weaker vs 4 Gate and 3 Gate Robo than I am because you go CC first. That's kind of a given though xD.
4 gate smashes me to with this, I'll have to watch your replay when I get home to see how you hold it off. Bunker placement is hard with some of the new maps. When I scout 4 gate I throw down a 3rd Rax with a tech lab (which slows the rest of this build unfortunately) but makes me able to hold off the 4 gate tho. However 4 gate plays right into this build because I find most Toss that go 4gate, do it into more gate Colossus. If I scout VR opening I normally abandon this build and do a Marine Heavy MMM force with Thors Mixied in. I have to say before finding this thread I was completely lost against Protoss, its been a great help…
On March 28 2011 22:40 BONE wrote: 4 gate smashes me to with this, I'll have to watch your replay when I get home to see how you hold it off. Bunker placement is hard with some of the new maps. When I scout 4 gate I throw down a 3rd Rax with a tech lab (which slows the rest of this build unfortunately) but makes me able to hold off the 4 gate tho. However 4 gate plays right into this build because I find most Toss that go 4gate, do it into more gate Colossus. If I scout VR opening I normally abandon this build and do a Marine Heavy MMM force with Thors Mixied in. I have to say before finding this thread I was completely lost against Protoss, its been a great help…
Here's a replay for you to check out on holding a 4 Gate with a 2 Rax Stim Expand:
Things to note: - I build my CC in my base and bunker up after scouting the 4 Gate. - I tech straight to Banshees as fast as possible to break the contain and expand, allowing my macro to win the game for me.
The main focus is to not let the push do too much damage against you so that you can build a nice ball of MM to break the contain and turn the game into you hands. With a 2 Rax Bunker Expand, you should be able to hold a 4 Gate off simply by repairing your bunkers. It's that easy
And I'm glad you're enjoying the build! Post any replays if you need specific help ^_^
What is exactly "deny scouting" means here? using Raven and marines to patrol? Or just locate a Raven in the center of your main and put all starports behind it? But the ob can come in any angle? Am I missing something here? Thanks.
On March 29 2011 17:08 duckTemplar wrote: What is exactly "deny scouting" means here? using Raven and marines to patrol? Or just locate a Raven in the center of your main and put all starports behind it? But the ob can come in any angle? Am I missing something here? Thanks.
Using your Raven + Thor and/or Marines to scout out your base to kill any observers that are in your base. If you don't find any, then build your starports under the detection range of the Raven. That will allow you to pick off the observer before it can spot the starports. In an ideal situation, you will kill the observer as soon as you Raven pops out and the Protoss will assume Thor/Marine and tech to Immortal/Chargelot.
It's not the end-all if your opponent scouts the starports. It happens, but it's like he scouted you going mass bio and would make Colossi in response. Instead, he'll either mass Stalkers or get Phoenix, both of which you can deal with by building more Banshees or Vikings.
On March 29 2011 17:08 duckTemplar wrote: What is exactly "deny scouting" means here? using Raven and marines to patrol? Or just locate a Raven in the center of your main and put all starports behind it? But the ob can come in any angle? Am I missing something here? Thanks.
kill any observers in your base and then keep raven on likely route of observer to keep him the hell out ^__^
this build is only countering two toss units, namely the stalker and collosi. The same amount of minerals spent elsewhere could also garner a win? The cost to get 8-10 banshees isn't exactly cheap.
On March 30 2011 05:35 IzieBoy wrote: this build is only countering two toss units, namely the stalker and collosi. The same amount of minerals spent elsewhere could also garner a win? The cost to get 8-10 banshees isn't exactly cheap.
What...???
Banshees are a hard counter to any ground unit that can't hit air:
Zealot, Colossi, DT, Immortal
Not to mention they trade extremely well with Stalkers, which most Protoss will use as their AA. 8-10 Banshees isn't cheap, which is why you fast expand to afford them. Why is that NOT good? Banshees are one of the most cost effective units Terran has against Protoss.
what about the big mommaship? i mean yes.. banshees are very durable as they are air units with cloak as well as being faster than all toss units (excepting phoenix and blink stalkers)...but that's only against early to mid game mixture where your opponent only have stalkers for aa. and yes, banshees actually counter stalkers with obs in high numbers by outranging them with high density and PDD. but banshee harass can be stopped with just 3 or 4 phoenix at home. and the transition to BCs only works when the P player is either unsuspecting of your economy or doesn't build void rays. i mean if a P scouts well, banshees become that really fragile unit which is better replaced by some all-round buff unit like the thor or marauder. congratz on your games btw i watched a few. just wanted to throw some skepticism out there for some perspective balance to suggest that this unit composition isn't the reason behind wins but the solid play. i think i can get away with labelling this as a dps strat where "first-strike" is essential.
On March 30 2011 23:33 IzieBoy wrote: what about the big mommaship? i mean yes.. banshees are very durable as they are air units with cloak as well as being faster than all toss units (excepting phoenix and blink stalkers)...but that's only against early to mid game mixture where your opponent only have stalkers for aa. and yes, banshees actually counter stalkers with obs in high numbers by outranging them with high density and PDD. but banshee harass can be stopped with just 3 or 4 phoenix at home. and the transition to BCs only works when the P player is either unsuspecting of your economy or doesn't build void rays. i mean if a P scouts well, banshees become that really fragile unit which is better replaced by some all-round buff unit like the thor or marauder. congratz on your games btw i watched a few. just wanted to throw some skepticism out there for some perspective balance to suggest that this unit composition isn't the reason behind wins but the solid play. i think i can get away with labelling this as a dps strat where "first-strike" is essential.
I'll start this off by saying I have NEVER played against a Mothership. Carriers yes, Momma no. I also play at a 3300 Masters level so the unit composition has to work for me to get wins. Plaing at that level isn't just 1a vs 1a.
To deal with the Mothership, I already have a Raven in my army composition for detection. You don't mention in your post anything about the other air unit I use. Vikings! Vikings off of 4 starports will help you reach a critical mass quickly enough to deal with both Phoenix and Void Rays quite easily. A transition to BCs can be done quite easily in almost any point in the mid game I've found. Once I get 2-3 out, Phoenix are completely nullified because the AI of the Phoenix make them attack BCs, not Banshees and they do abysmal damage to them.
Depending on the situation, my late game transition will either be BC/Banshee to fight Stalker HT or BC/Viking if Stargate unit counts are high for Protoss.
Also, first strike is great, but also defending with home field advantage can lead up to a NASTY counter attack. If I deny scouting properly, many Protoss will push in with their Colossi Gateway mix and get CRUSHED. This leaves them open with very few units and those aren't suitable for dealing with mass Banshee. I counter attack, expand once or twice and start BC production with upgrades. Very, very hard to stop. Check out a few more replays if you're still skeptical.
I also have a few unreleased replays as of yet. I'm saving them for a BC replay pack, along with a more conventional one as well. If you need a certain type of game, I just might have it
On April 01 2011 05:43 IzieBoy wrote: i think i'm going to be using practicing this build. what are you going to call this build btw? I don't plan on using it also for T v any race.
Haha uhhh....
Either 4 Port Banshee or Anti-Colossi I guess.
I'd actually like to to be called "Standard TvP". It'll get there eventually =<
Starport just owns Robotech, and in medium to large numbers it owns Gateway units as well. The Khaydarian Amulet removal makes HT's less worrisome because you can keep your banshee energy low with Cloak and psi-storm is no longer on-demand so its not a reliable deterrent against Banshees. That along with PDD's and Observer snipes means the Banshees just own everything.
The Toss is pretty much forced into going Stargate tech. This is playing right into Terran's hands, because mass marines owns ALL Stargate tech!!! So while you are pumping most of your gas into Banshees, Ravens, and later BC's, you dump all your remaining minerals into mass marines. If the Toss goes Robotech your air will own him. If he goes Stargate tech your marines will own him (BC's with good Yamato usage also rapes Stargate tech). No more instant-storms makes the marines that much more viable. There might be a perfect balance of Robo & Stargate tech with Chargelot dump that can stand up to this, but it's probably too expensive for Protoss to go down all 3 trees.
I don't really like 2 rax stim anymore. Isn't able to put pressure, and can't hold the first 2 waves of 4 gate anymore without a bunker which is required anyways. I think you should switch over to SeleCT's 2 rax.
I've personally decided that this build is a million times stronger post patch
I really hate the BC buff and amulet nerf. So much.
Either way, the ONLY cost efficient counter to this is feedback, where you save up your energies for it. I really don't think stalker+phoenix is enough, even with upgrades, because a BC transition is just so rape vs it
First, I have to give Synystyr my utmost thanks! I've used this build extensively vs Protoss all throughout Platinum and Diamond with overwhelming success.
I have however run into issues on the defensive side upon getting into high-diamond territory, namely with XNC. That natural is just so open that the bunkers are simply flanked with ease, and if the attacker is competent they warp in 1 sentry and FF them, ofc preventing the repairs. Any advice?
I usually have my 3 bunkers filled and 3-5 marines on top of that outside bunkers before they hit with 2-3 immo's + gateway mix. This is literally the only way I lose this matchup when I use this build.
On April 02 2011 14:19 Sevenofnines wrote: I'm loving this build right now.
Starport just owns Robotech, and in medium to large numbers it owns Gateway units as well. The Khaydarian Amulet removal makes HT's less worrisome because you can keep your banshee energy low with Cloak and psi-storm is no longer on-demand so its not a reliable deterrent against Banshees. That along with PDD's and Observer snipes means the Banshees just own everything.
The Toss is pretty much forced into going Stargate tech. This is playing right into Terran's hands, because mass marines owns ALL Stargate tech!!! So while you are pumping most of your gas into Banshees, Ravens, and later BC's, you dump all your remaining minerals into mass marines. If the Toss goes Robotech your air will own him. If he goes Stargate tech your marines will own him (BC's with good Yamato usage also rapes Stargate tech). No more instant-storms makes the marines that much more viable. There might be a perfect balance of Robo & Stargate tech with Chargelot dump that can stand up to this, but it's probably too expensive for Protoss to go down all 3 trees.
Not to mention that with 4 Starports, you can quickly pump out large amounts of Vikings as well if you need quick AA to deal with Phoenix/Void Ray. Vikings trade extremely well with both units and act as shields for your banshees as well!
On April 02 2011 16:37 manicshock wrote: I don't really like 2 rax stim anymore. Isn't able to put pressure, and can't hold the first 2 waves of 4 gate anymore without a bunker which is required anyways. I think you should switch over to SeleCT's 2 rax.
You're right, you can't pressure any more, but it still an extremely safe expand. If you scout any signs that a 4 Gate is coming, build two bunkers at your ramp and the CC inside your base. This pretty much shuts down the 4 Gate hardcore and you can retake your natural after you get your first banshee. You'll be way ahead at this point, so you can just add two bunkers to your nat, tech up and take the game.
Watch the replays ^.-
On April 03 2011 07:49 Doz wrote: First, I have to give Synystyr my utmost thanks! I've used this build extensively vs Protoss all throughout Platinum and Diamond with overwhelming success.
I have however run into issues on the defensive side upon getting into high-diamond territory, namely with XNC. That natural is just so open that the bunkers are simply flanked with ease, and if the attacker is competent they warp in 1 sentry and FF them, ofc preventing the repairs. Any advice?
I usually have my 3 bunkers filled and 3-5 marines on top of that outside bunkers before they hit with 2-3 immo's + gateway mix. This is literally the only way I lose this matchup when I use this build.
You're welcome! I'm glad you're enjoying it
So on maps like XNC or Metal where the natural is wide open, you can't 3 bunker expand off 2 naked barracks. If you check out BO#2, you see that a 2 Rax Stim Expand is used instead to take and defend your natural. This is much more sturdy when you can't close your natural off.
Check the replays out! There should be plenty there as a good example for you Post a replay as well if you need further help!
I've seen some Gold-level Terrans absolutely murder themselves trying to execute this build, who clearly haven't read the OP since it was updated. I like that this build pulls away from Colossus vs Bio and recommend it's use by Terrans looking for a different type of TvP.
I especially like the considerations given for the new map pool which doesn't have any nat chokes that I can think of. The biggest threat here for Terran seems to be a Toss sticking to 1gas as the 4gate 3gate+stargate/robo builds seem to hurt it the most.
Well, ever since the amulet nerf, I don't think you really even need to do banshee into 4 port mass BC, you can just mass expo behind mass bio and then flip to mass BC.
So you're saying void rays, and HTs with storm already, and time to get energy to feed back plus storm.
Wow. That's not 20 minutes late lol
I'm telling you, I go fast to cloak 1-1-1 via the Yen build into 1-1-2 on 2 base 2 port cloakshee harasses until you get a raven + 2-4 thors with strike cannons and marines and go. It's a strong opening, if you can call and defend the 3 gate contain/3 gate VR/4 gate etc.
Some maps I've been transitioning to all banshee mixes usually of 3 ports usually. Mara/banshee with hellions if they don't get any AA and I try to go around and harass as much as possible to keep collsai and probe counts low
On April 04 2011 02:39 iAmJeffReY wrote: So you're saying void rays, and HTs with storm already, and time to get energy to feed back plus storm.
Wow. That's not 20 minutes late lol
With the execution of some players I've seen in Diamond...
I'm telling you, I go fast to cloak 1-1-1 via the Yen build into 1-1-2 on 2 base 2 port cloakshee harasses until you get a raven + 2-4 thors with strike cannons and marines and go. It's a strong opening, if you can call and defend the 3 gate contain/3 gate VR/4 gate etc.
Some maps I've been transitioning to all banshee mixes usually of 3 ports usually. Mara/banshee with hellions if they don't get any AA and I try to go around and harass as much as possible to keep collsai and probe counts low
Is there a listed version of Yen's build? I only vaguely remember a replay pack. It seems quite similar to the 3Port Thor thing you could do with this build.
As you know Synystyr I have been using and slightly modifying your build for quite a long time (not exclusively but I use it probably 1/3 of my games esp on shattered temple or new plateau where I feel that I can get away with FEs more easily).
I feel like the build is particularly flimsy against mass stalkers/zealots and some phoenix, a couple guardian shields really make banshee/marine less potent as well. Observer sniping really can't be depended on anymore IMO and although you say banshees trade well with stalkers, the truth of the matter is protoss just have such an advantage in numbers because of how early they started their gateway army, that if I can't do some significant harassment damage I find that I can never get enough to beat this combination. (and sometimes I have to mkae vikings instead if they make enough phenoix).
I feel like the commitment to air is too great. I would like to see maybe 2starports making mass banshees and a factory for mass thors (cost and build time exactly the same). I think this would result in a less polarized army that is not as dependent on strong scouting and dare I say cheesey observer sniping. With strike cannons I feel that this would be especially potent. Engagements would proceed similarly except that marines would engage behind the thors. Basically the marines roll would be to kill the zealots at first and then deal with whatever is left over and remain very mobile to deal damage after the battle is cleaned up.
The idea for the thors would be to strike cannon any nearby robo units, tank the initial collosus damage instead of losing all your marines super fast and decimate any phenoix play which IMO is what currently counters your build the hardest. The thor deals more dps then 2 banshees and is much sturdier although it does suffer from being attackable by ground units (and taking +3 dmg from stalkers, but even so the effective health is still higher). I think this is actually an advantage if your thors can survive long enough for the banshees to kill the collosus because this allows your marines to really kick ass if they can just avoid that collosus damage. The protoss meanwhile will have to choose whether to focus down the thors (which he should) or to attack the banshees, and this might result in more no AA situations depending on the protoss unit composition.
Anyway this is mostly theory craft at this point but I will get back to you about it.
I'm telling you, I go fast to cloak 1-1-1 via the Yen build into 1-1-2 on 2 base 2 port cloakshee harasses until you get a raven + 2-4 thors with strike cannons and marines and go. It's a strong opening, if you can call and defend the 3 gate contain/3 gate VR/4 gate etc.
Some maps I've been transitioning to all banshee mixes usually of 3 ports usually. Mara/banshee with hellions if they don't get any AA and I try to go around and harass as much as possible to keep collsai and probe counts low
Is there a listed version of Yen's build? I only vaguely remember a replay pack. It seems quite similar to the 3Port Thor thing you could do with this build.
I can't find the page even though I keep looking >_>
It's basic fast 1-1-1. 10 supply 12 rax 13 gas 15 OC 16 supply 18 fac 18 refinery (scout protoss and know if you have to bunker or not) starport directly after fac, fac starts tech lab half thru starport. Swap port onto fac, cloak + banshee, then start expo CC in base. 2nd banshee, start armory, and reactor on rax.
Harass and don't over extend with first 2-3 banshees. Snipe sentries and probes. Procede to get thors and reactor marines. I get another starport after first thor for dual port and try to keep pressure non stop on the protoss with banshees until I push out with 3-4 thors with strike cannon and +1, and about 20-25 marines, a raven (make after 3rd banshee) and about 15 or so scvs 5 per thor on auto repair.
Definitly packs a punch if you can gain any foothold with the harass with banshees. From there it's usually 2 base vs 2 base and the push does nice damage if you dont walk right into 2-3 collsai without nailing em with cannons or FF them down with banshees. Scan/use raven to spot the single OB we all know toss carry with them. Then just pull back and cloak shee rape anything you have to before you move in for the kill.
That's the best I can remember. He ended it with do /dance and drop mules in their base. lol Definitly transitionable to a 3 port if you cut out the constant thor production
Your Plus +1 is on air attack right? I think +1 mech weapons is slightly silly, considering the thor overkills right? If anything, + vehicle armor would be a better choice.
Just wanted to say that this build owns. I do feel that there is a small window where you are vulnerable though. Like right when you have just 1 or 2 banshees out and toss just pushes you then.
On April 04 2011 12:09 TheSaddestPanda wrote: Your Plus +1 is on air attack right? I think +1 mech weapons is slightly silly, considering the thor overkills right? If anything, + vehicle armor would be a better choice.
Huh? I go +1 Air Armor. I don't even use the factory for anything more than 2 Thors, if that.
On April 04 2011 12:15 oblong wrote: if only there wasnt such a thing as a phoenix?
It's a good thing you read the post, huh? Good thing Terrans have Vikings and Marines.
On April 04 2011 17:58 Washow wrote: Just wanted to say that this build owns. I do feel that there is a small window where you are vulnerable though. Like right when you have just 1 or 2 banshees out and toss just pushes you then.
Yes, there are a few weak points in this build that can be exploited. I still need to figure these out better and see what I can do to defend in those times. What I've found works best is to keep Protoss busy back at his base with dual-pronged Banshee harass instead.
On April 04 2011 12:09 TheSaddestPanda wrote: Your Plus +1 is on air attack right? I think +1 mech weapons is slightly silly, considering the thor overkills right? If anything, + vehicle armor would be a better choice.
Huh? I go +1 Air Armor. I don't even use the factory for anything more than 2 Thors, if that.
On April 04 2011 17:58 Washow wrote: Just wanted to say that this build owns. I do feel that there is a small window where you are vulnerable though. Like right when you have just 1 or 2 banshees out and toss just pushes you then.
Yes, there are a few weak points in this build that can be exploited. I still need to figure these out better and see what I can do to defend in those times. What I've found works best is to keep Protoss busy back at his base with dual-pronged Banshee harass instead.
hey how come u research air armor instead of weapons? my theory is that air weapons is more useful, since a lot of the time the air units will be attacking but not being attacked, therefore the +1 weapons will be used a lot more. how come you think armour might be better?
On April 04 2011 12:09 TheSaddestPanda wrote: Your Plus +1 is on air attack right? I think +1 mech weapons is slightly silly, considering the thor overkills right? If anything, + vehicle armor would be a better choice.
Huh? I go +1 Air Armor. I don't even use the factory for anything more than 2 Thors, if that.
On April 04 2011 12:15 oblong wrote: if only there wasnt such a thing as a phoenix?
It's a good thing you read the post, huh? Good thing Terrans have Vikings and Marines.
On April 04 2011 17:58 Washow wrote: Just wanted to say that this build owns. I do feel that there is a small window where you are vulnerable though. Like right when you have just 1 or 2 banshees out and toss just pushes you then.
Yes, there are a few weak points in this build that can be exploited. I still need to figure these out better and see what I can do to defend in those times. What I've found works best is to keep Protoss busy back at his base with dual-pronged Banshee harass instead.
hey how come u research air armor instead of weapons? my theory is that air weapons is more useful, since a lot of the time the air units will be attacking but not being attacked, therefore the +1 weapons will be used a lot more. how come you think armour might be better?
Banshee dps is already incredible, and the air armor lets them take a lot more stalker/sentry hits.
On April 04 2011 17:58 Washow wrote: Just wanted to say that this build owns. I do feel that there is a small window where you are vulnerable though. Like right when you have just 1 or 2 banshees out and toss just pushes you then.
Yes, there are a few weak points in this build that can be exploited. I still need to figure these out better and see what I can do to defend in those times. What I've found works best is to keep Protoss busy back at his base with dual-pronged Banshee harass instead.
Ah I see. I was trying to hide my banshees as much as possible so I was kinda turtling till I was maxing out or something.
Anyway during one of my games we did 200 vs 200 with him doing the zealot(heavy)+stalker+colossi and I came out 150food and him 90. Fucking owned haha
lol omg the maphacker i can't believe it XD i made a brief video that goes over the time spots where the guy is doing some err intent staring at nothing? maybe the guy has smoked a joint and been hallucinating some epic army of sorts sitting where it should be. of course there is still reason to doubt he really is a maphacker, but still lol....remind me not to stare intently at the large open area of the opponent's natural expansion for 10 secs at a time.
oh and if the music is too annoying just turn the sound off... i'm basically showing the the Red player's vision with some taps to Everyone's view to show through the fog of war.
On April 05 2011 18:42 IzieBoy wrote: lol omg the maphacker i can't believe it XD i made a brief video that goes over the time spots where the guy is doing some err intent staring at nothing? maybe the guy has smoked a joint and been hallucinating some epic army of sorts sitting where it should be. of course there is still reason to doubt he really is a maphacker, but still lol....remind me not to stare intently at the large open area of the opponent's natural expansion for 10 secs at a time.
oh and if the music is too annoying just turn the sound off... i'm basically showing the the Red player's vision with some taps to Everyone's view to show through the fog of war.
Haha oh wow you made a little VOD of it? Cool xD. Yeah, he was most definitely a hacker but he had the right idea with the unit composition that countered me. I was pretty shocked by that. The biggest mistake I made there was not pulling back right away when I saw that many Phoenix, Colossi and Observers. Had I pulled back and pumped out a crap ton of Vikings, it would have been much more favorable to me.
The replay is educational, even though the opponent was indeed a maphacker =X
On April 05 2011 18:42 IzieBoy wrote: lol omg the maphacker i can't believe it XD i made a brief video that goes over the time spots where the guy is doing some err intent staring at nothing? maybe the guy has smoked a joint and been hallucinating some epic army of sorts sitting where it should be. of course there is still reason to doubt he really is a maphacker, but still lol....remind me not to stare intently at the large open area of the opponent's natural expansion for 10 secs at a time.
oh and if the music is too annoying just turn the sound off... i'm basically showing the the Red player's vision with some taps to Everyone's view to show through the fog of war.
Haha oh wow you made a little VOD of it? Cool xD. Yeah, he was most definitely a hacker but he had the right idea with the unit composition that countered me. I was pretty shocked by that. The biggest mistake I made there was not pulling back right away when I saw that many Phoenix, Colossi and Observers. Had I pulled back and pumped out a crap ton of Vikings, it would have been much more favorable to me.
The replay is educational, even though the opponent was indeed a maphacker =X
If you're going to do something like this you need need NEED to have your thor attacking the phoenix. Also, don't be afraid to run away if things start turning out like that. You're also less mineral bound than normal play so it's probably a good idea to scan more heavily to figure out what his composition is.
That said there's not much you can do against hackers.
I'm not the best terran macro player, and sometimes I never have enough units to hold off an initial protoss push. But as soon as I get rid of that fucking observer, these banshee's have insane dps. For those who are lazy to read this large post; Don't forget raven's. PDD is so critical VS Stalkers, and It detects the observer. Also I recommend, when you feel a push coming or your planning a push; save a scan for sniping out the obs. This allows your Banshees to attack at full potential.
On April 05 2011 18:42 IzieBoy wrote: lol omg the maphacker i can't believe it XD i made a brief video that goes over the time spots where the guy is doing some err intent staring at nothing? maybe the guy has smoked a joint and been hallucinating some epic army of sorts sitting where it should be. of course there is still reason to doubt he really is a maphacker, but still lol....remind me not to stare intently at the large open area of the opponent's natural expansion for 10 secs at a time.
oh and if the music is too annoying just turn the sound off... i'm basically showing the the Red player's vision with some taps to Everyone's view to show through the fog of war.
Haha oh wow you made a little VOD of it? Cool xD. Yeah, he was most definitely a hacker but he had the right idea with the unit composition that countered me. I was pretty shocked by that. The biggest mistake I made there was not pulling back right away when I saw that many Phoenix, Colossi and Observers. Had I pulled back and pumped out a crap ton of Vikings, it would have been much more favorable to me.
The replay is educational, even though the opponent was indeed a maphacker =X
If you're going to do something like this you need need NEED to have your thor attacking the phoenix. Also, don't be afraid to run away if things start turning out like that. You're also less mineral bound than normal play so it's probably a good idea to scan more heavily to figure out what his composition is.
That said there's not much you can do against hackers.
Yeah, that was such a perfect response that I was taken aback and my army melted so fast. Had I been better about scouting, I would have known that he was doing that and would have made more vikings. Bad playing by me, even if he was a maphacker. I still should have won.
On April 07 2011 01:43 SoftSoap wrote: I'm not the best terran macro player, and sometimes I never have enough units to hold off an initial protoss push. But as soon as I get rid of that fucking observer, these banshee's have insane dps. For those who are lazy to read this large post; Don't forget raven's. PDD is so critical VS Stalkers, and It detects the observer. Also I recommend, when you feel a push coming or your planning a push; save a scan for sniping out the obs. This allows your Banshees to attack at full potential.
Mmhmm, but you play a pretty decent Protoss Observer sniping forces your enemy to retreat or risk losing his entire army, same way DTs work when you run into them. This is great if you need to repel a midgame push and stall just a little longer. It's always worth getting a couple vikings even if their only purpose is to kill observers.
You, Halby and iEchoic have helped me so much. My TvP is an adaptation of your tvp and iEchoic's Banshee Bio TvP. I fast expand like you and get raven and banshee and win a lot of my matches.
By far, my worst matchup is tvt b/c I suxor at tank immobility. So, I have been trying hard to adapt the tvp for tvt. And I am finding success. Although I am very low on the leagues, I am beating diamond and platinum players. I believe I will get promoted at some point, as I have won the last 17 out of 20 games--no joke.
Now with the advant of the BC speed, this tvp has become a viable tvt. I am loving it. Here is a replay of BC in action:
A few things to note: One has to understand that tank pushes are slow. So, there is no reason to panic [even though I did panicky by suiciding my first set of marines to his tank drop in my main. But after that, I calmed down w/ lots of patience]. Give the tank player a few buildings to hit and he will be happy. In my case, I gave him a bunch of barracks to hit while I tech'd, expanded, macro'd and built BC's. It is great to now have an answer to sieged tanks hitting my main. The knowledge that tanks take forever to blow up a building is very comforting and allowed me to continue with my game plan and only occassionally do a bit of micro. After all, this is a macro game--or at least that is my style.
The Tank player has to worry about his tanks. For, if he looks away for one second, all his tanks could be dead (from cloaked banshees, etc). This isn't the case with the Sky terran, I can look away and expand and hit hotkeys for more spam bc's. So, it is really cool.
I am posting this here not because I am intentionally being off-topic. Rather, I believe in this build. I think it has soo much unexplored potential in tvt. Now that BC's can move as fast as thors, I think of BC's as flying thors :-). They cost nearly the same; take nearly as long to build; have near the same health and can hit air and ground. And They NEVER die b/c autocast SCV's repairs.
On April 10 2011 23:50 longtang wrote: Hi Synystyr:
You, Halby and iEchoic have helped me so much. My TvP is an adaptation of your tvp and iEchoic's Banshee Bio TvP. I fast expand like you and get raven and banshee and win a lot of my matches.
By far, my worst matchup is tvt b/c I suxor at tank immobility. So, I have been trying hard to adapt the tvp for tvt. And I am finding success. Although I am very low on the leagues, I am beating diamond and platinum players. I believe I will get promoted at some point, as I have won the last 17 out of 20 games--no joke.
Now with the advant of the BC speed, this tvp has become a viable tvt. I am loving it. Here is a replay of BC in action:
A few things to note: One has to understand that tank pushes are slow. So, there is no reason to panic [even though I did panicky by suiciding my first set of marines to his tank drop in my main. But after that, I calmed down w/ lots of patience]. Give the tank player a few buildings to hit and he will be happy. In my case, I gave him a bunch of barracks to hit while I tech'd, expanded, macro'd and built BC's. It is great to now have an answer to sieged tanks hitting my main. The knowledge that tanks take forever to blow up a building is very comforting and allowed me to continue with my game plan and only occassionally do a bit of micro. After all, this is a macro game--or at least that is my style.
The Tank player has to worry about his tanks. For, if he looks away for one second, all his tanks could be dead (from cloaked banshees, etc). This isn't the case with the Sky terran, I can look away and expand and hit hotkeys for more spam bc's. So, it is really cool.
I am posting this here not because I am intentionally being off-topic. Rather, I believe in this build. I think it has soo much unexplored potential in tvt. Now that BC's can move as fast as thors, I think of BC's as flying thors :-). They cost nearly the same; take nearly as long to build; have near the same health and can hit air and ground. And They NEVER die b/c autocast SCV's repairs.
So cool to be able to go tank less! do cheers.
Hey Longtang,
I'm glad you're enjoying this build and that its helped you improve! I honestly can't say I've tried this tooooo much in TvT....but I do see it working, I'm just hesitant of going up against early tank pushes. Something along the lines of a 1-1-1 expand into 4 starports might work though. Marines are a little more difficult to deal with than stalkers, because of their higher dps and how easy it is to mass a large number of them. The BC transition however is deadly, and with 4 starports, you can maintain your air superiority with ease. Will have to experiment with this more! Thanks for the replay, will be sure to take a look when I get home!
Go in his mineral line and try to snipe his gas probes. If you're sneak you can take out a lot before a stalker gets there, then get out and search for forward pylons/take watch towers.
This really throws a toss off, specially if they are 4 gating plus it gives you good scouting.
back in your base its map dependent but you want to get 2-3 tanks, a couple missile towers, and a sensor tower. Holding that second is the hardest part. You need tanks on the high ground with some bunkers to stop aggression. You'll want at least one starport early to deter colossi until you can get a good stream of shees.
After your second is up and protected sweep for obs and start your banshee infrastructure.
Make Vikings and a raven and you should be able to take map control and deny his third.
I feel like this style will not be as good to the new style that Protoss players are using, the heavy gateway with upgrades style. Adelscott specializes in this and also tyler's double forge strat that doesn't go robo and with fast charge and blink, P's army is very mobile with the idle robo that can keep pumping out observers and P can expand everywhere. Also, keep in mind that your army is a deathball itself and will not be able to work nicely if being splitted. This build gets a really really late upgrade and P will almost have 3/3 by the time you got 1/0 for air. The timing attack with double PDD won't really work because any good P will stay in the middle and they can run away safely (artosis made a tutorial on this about polt prime's timing attack with raven).
On April 12 2011 21:09 Fedor wrote: Here is my variation to the build:
2 rax to 3 Reapers. Yes. Reapers.
Go in his mineral line and try to snipe his gas probes. If you're sneak you can take out a lot before a stalker gets there, then get out and search for forward pylons/take watch towers.
This really throws a toss off, specially if they are 4 gating plus it gives you good scouting.
back in your base its map dependent but you want to get 2-3 tanks, a couple missile towers, and a sensor tower. Holding that second is the hardest part. You need tanks on the high ground with some bunkers to stop aggression. You'll want at least one starport early to deter colossi until you can get a good stream of shees.
After your second is up and protected sweep for obs and start your banshee infrastructure.
Make Vikings and a raven and you should be able to take map control and deny his third.
Win.
That style of play is really safe, and will let you turtle into your tech extremely well. I personally don't prefer it as much because I like to get those Banshees out ASAP, rather than slowly tech up to them. It's a preference, but as long as you end up getting a solid Air based army later, you're bound to do well
On April 12 2011 22:37 Trakky wrote: I feel like this style will not be as good to the new style that Protoss players are using, the heavy gateway with upgrades style. Adelscott specializes in this and also tyler's double forge strat that doesn't go robo and with fast charge and blink, P's army is very mobile with the idle robo that can keep pumping out observers and P can expand everywhere. Also, keep in mind that your army is a deathball itself and will not be able to work nicely if being splitted. This build gets a really really late upgrade and P will almost have 3/3 by the time you got 1/0 for air. The timing attack with double PDD won't really work because any good P will stay in the middle and they can run away safely (artosis made a tutorial on this about polt prime's timing attack with raven).
The timing attack with the double PDD is not based around the PDD. It is a timing push that punishes a Protoss heavily who does not get sufficient anti air out to deal with the critical mass of Banshees that I have at that moment. The extra PDDs and the ability to snipe observers is just a huge bonus that comes along This 2 Base timing push differs from a Polt timing attack in many, many ways.
With Banshees, you are more mobile than Blink Stalkers because of the ability to fly and cloak. Being able to deny expansions with your banshees and easily snipe buildings and get out is a crucial part of this style if your timing attack was not very successful.
Double upgrade builds are strong, but I have yet to play one that's really taxed me hard. It sounds solid in theory, but even with upgrades, banshees still trade extremely well with stalkers. +1 Armor BCs with Yamato can really go the distance, even against 3/3 Stalkers. I'll have to dig up a replay or two. I'm still having great success with this build on ladder nonetheless.
If you watch sjow vs whitera just now, sjow went 4port with BCs and his banshees did deal a heavy amount of damage to the probe line of whitera throughout the whole game. However, whitera went late double forge and ofcourse when you go double forge, you don't use robo at all except for obs so he used his gas on blink/charge and went for Hts because he already got TWC. I don't want to spoil anything here but you should watch the last battle. there's also another good Terran in the TSL who used 4port but failed (forgot who it was).
On April 13 2011 03:51 Trakky wrote: If you watch sjow vs whitera just now, sjow went 4port with BCs and his banshees did deal a heavy amount of damage to the probe line of whitera throughout the whole game. However, whitera went late double forge and ofcourse when you go double forge, you don't use robo at all except for obs so he used his gas on blink/charge and went for Hts because he already got TWC. I don't want to spoil anything here but you should watch the last battle.
I watched it. He lost because he didn't have Banshee support in the last battle. There was nothing there to deal with the Stalkers. Marines in this army composition are not meant to last, and Sjow relied too heavily on them. I don't think this was the proper way of playing this style, but I did enjoy watching it and hope that people can take away a few good things from it.
Well, he was on 3 bases spending all his resources on marines and air units. So if he used 90% of his resources on his ports, having only 3 BCs in the last battle, how could he get more banshees? the supplies were dead even before the battle with whitera having like 100 probes (so less army supply) and the loss were like 1:10 ratio.
On April 13 2011 04:07 Trakky wrote: Well, he was on 3 bases spending all his resources on marines and air units. So if he used 90% of his resources on his ports, having only 3 BCs in the last battle, how could he get more banshees? the supplies were dead even before the battle with whitera having like 100 probes (so less army supply) and the loss were like 1:10 ratio.
BCs take a really long time to build. That means he could have had at least twice the amount of Banshees instead of BCs instead. 3 BCs vs ~ 8+ cloaked banshees. With the Viking count he had and a couple scans, he could've pushed that back no problen, He teched to BCs without having proper defense on the ground. Stalkers do very well vs BCs, but not when there are Banshees mixed in. Also, a huge portion of Sjow's supply was marines, which are virtually useless in that lategame situation.
I watched that game too and he made like 15 vikings for no god damn reason at all. He had his few banshees fly all over white-ra's base and KNEW he wasn't going colossi so I have no idea why he made so many vikings.
Plus his banshees were annoying at best and didn't do much damage. At the end he threw away like 5 banshees at cannons instead of bringing them back home and repair.
Really bad play by him. That wasn't this 4port banshee build at all
I usually get bio as well with this build and it just owns so hard. Transitioning into Battlecruisers in the end game is extremely deadly. I like to throw in a couple of ravens.
It seems fickle to me... you are saving up a lot of power expecting your opponent will go colossus tech. Lots of protoss are moving away from the colossus to go more gateways and upgrades, as templars got nerfed hard, and there are so many anti colossus builds out like this one. Seems to do what its meant to do well though. I do hate banshees lol.
SjoW said in an interview right after the game (it was on the Swedish stream) that he had never used BCs before. He wanted to open Raven + Banshee and snipe the Obs to do a lot of harass, but when that failed he thought his best option was a BC transition since he already had three Starports. I wouldn't judge BC viability off of that game.
On April 13 2011 04:55 Washow wrote: I watched that game too and he made like 15 vikings for no god damn reason at all. He had his few banshees fly all over white-ra's base and KNEW he wasn't going colossi so I have no idea why he made so many vikings.
Plus his banshees were annoying at best and didn't do much damage. At the end he threw away like 5 banshees at cannons instead of bringing them back home and repair.
Really bad play by him. That wasn't this 4port banshee build at all
Yeah, the number of vikings he had was absurd...There really was no justification for it. Too many vikings, losing banshees to silly things and not enough banshees to support his BCs was what lost him the game. Better luck next time!
On April 14 2011 10:50 Velladin wrote: This build works really well.
I usually get bio as well with this build and it just owns so hard. Transitioning into Battlecruisers in the end game is extremely deadly. I like to throw in a couple of ravens.
Sounds like the 2 Rax Stim expand works well for you Heavier bio means you might want up to 5 Barracks instead and cutting a few Banshees in favor for that. Not my style personally since Colossi/Chargelot/FF would still fuck you up =[ Extra ravens do help though!
On April 14 2011 14:52 DragonDefonce wrote: It seems fickle to me... you are saving up a lot of power expecting your opponent will go colossus tech. Lots of protoss are moving away from the colossus to go more gateways and upgrades, as templars got nerfed hard, and there are so many anti colossus builds out like this one. Seems to do what its meant to do well though. I do hate banshees lol.
Even if the Protoss goes another tech route other than Robo, this build has everything it needs to deal with it. I'd like to look at it as another viable playstyle, just like MMMVG. It's solid, nothing really hard counters it and can punish your opponent extremely well if they do a Robo heavy build
On April 14 2011 15:23 hugman wrote: SjoW said in an interview right after the game (it was on the Swedish stream) that he had never used BCs before. He wanted to open Raven + Banshee and snipe the Obs to do a lot of harass, but when that failed he thought his best option was a BC transition since he already had three Starports. I wouldn't judge BC viability off of that game.
That's good to hear I hope he tries practicing with it more! With his micro, he could definitely get it to work much better than I can. His banshee harass is excellent I've always liked the idea of harassing with a couple Vikings + Raven to snipe observers and let your banshees eat mineral lines unstopped. Will have to try it!
I've got a question for Protoss....how often do you see this playstyle when you ladder and what league are you in? Did you win or lose and how/why? I'm interested to see where the usage of this build stands. Terran as well, how often do you guys use mass Air? Any decent results?
I also did some minor editing to the OP, placed a disclaimer as well. I don't recommend this to any players below High Plat/Diamond level because of how precise you need to be with this. Thanks!
I am using my slightly modified version with more thors and less banshees at 600masters almost every game these days with a very high win rate. In fact, when I survive past opening aggression my win rate is 90%. Occasionally I still lose to surprising/non-standard early aggression.
The only thing I have had trouble with is if they manage to set up a sort of 3gate soft contain on my quick expansion and expand before me and then they realize that I'm not very strong they use that advantage to take a fast ~10min 3rd. My push doesn't come until around 16minutes so that has time to pay for itself. Other then that though my 16minute push has never been held off by any combination of units.
I'm a low level Terran (plat) and I use this build almost exclusively in TvP. I don't think I've had a straight up BO loss with this yet; I lose, of course, but it feels like I can always attribute those losses to user errors.
Overall, I'd call this a very solid build, and I don't necessarily think you had to tack on the no gold caveat.
On April 23 2011 02:40 Synystyr wrote: I've got a question for Protoss....how often do you see this playstyle when you ladder and what league are you in? Did you win or lose and how/why? I'm interested to see where the usage of this build stands. Terran as well, how often do you guys use mass Air? Any decent results?
I also did some minor editing to the OP, placed a disclaimer as well. I don't recommend this to any players below High Plat/Diamond level because of how precise you need to be with this. Thanks!
Rank 350ish in NA at masters ( so rank 150 masters). I won because I did triple stargate phoenix after my obs saw multiple tech lab starports.
I've seen this build about twice. One I lost, one I won. I lost because I was in diamond or plat and I tried to do stalker collosus and didn't know how good phoenix were at killing banshees and ravens.
I have been using the 2rax stim opener and this build with great success in custom testing so far. Against other high diamond players of my skill level. This build is the bane to my Protoss buddy who has tried everything to beat it, including 4 gate, blink stalkers, phoenix, storm (which doesn't come soon enough). Each game, I push spot on at 14:00 and leave a trail of destruction in my wake each time.
However I have not yet been successful on ladder where there are many other early aggressive pushes that push back the build significantly. All of it is preventable with more practice, requiring me to get Bunkers earlier and throwing my timings off. I would like to make this build standard for my ladder play on macro-based larger maps and longer games. But until then I'll stick to my 1rax FE into 6 rax bio play
On April 23 2011 02:40 Synystyr wrote: I've got a question for Protoss....how often do you see this playstyle when you ladder and what league are you in? Did you win or lose and how/why? I'm interested to see where the usage of this build stands. Terran as well, how often do you guys use mass Air? Any decent results?
I also did some minor editing to the OP, placed a disclaimer as well. I don't recommend this to any players below High Plat/Diamond level because of how precise you need to be with this. Thanks!
I find that terrans are starting to get more heavier on air units as im running into many 2 port banshee builds timed with a raven PDD push. Rather than a 4 port. But rarely do I see people transition into BC's like fellow SynyStyr you; who is inactive on sc2 1 week.
Since learning this build, I have jumped up two leagues, and have won a huge majority of my games v. Toss. I would just like to add that after you have utterly destroyed their army, you should prioritize which buildings you are to attack. I like to shut down unit production prioritizing stargates, then gateways. Then, make sure you get rid of any forge, then destroy their nexi.
Yup. Idk I just don't like the build it relies so much on surprise. San miscontrolled his 1st obs and only saw 1 starport. By the time his 2nd obs got there he saw 6 banshees and by then it was too late. His 2nd obs got sniped and then san got raped by 6 cloaked banshees and was then so far behind.
I will give this build fact and that there is a strongggg timing you can do before the protoss switches to phoenix. I don't think its too viable if scouted early though.
Jinro did a fairly good job controlling that scouting with the raven first. The second he got spotted, Jinro did the right thing and immediately attacked, then killed ANOTHER observer on his way in.
Sky Terran at it's finest. Heck imo, I thought Jinro didn't even execute it thaaaat well but he still rolled San. Haha I was on the edge of my seat when I saw the 2nd obs scout. Jinro did everything right in the initial engagement, I just don't favor his opener. SO AWESOME! I'm so happy :D
And the BC transition was baller. I knew it'd be the nail the coffin. Good stuff :D
Thanks for sharing this build to us. It's been my standard build against protoss. Just a quick question on defending toss pressure right before 1st thor coming out. I put 3 bunkers in natural for map Backwater Gulch but i faced a stalker with heavy sentries army which FF-ed my bunkers and i couldn't use SCV auto repairing at all. Also he attacked at an angle that only 2 bunkers were attacking his army.
I still won the game by switching to thor heavy army and abused the PDD. But any advice on how to deal with this better?
Thanks for sharing this build to us. It's been my standard build against protoss. Just a quick question on defending toss pressure right before 1st thor coming out. I put 3 bunkers in natural for map Backwater Gulch but i faced a stalker with heavy sentries army which FF-ed my bunkers and i couldn't use SCV auto repairing at all. Also he attacked at an angle that only 2 bunkers were attacking his army.
I still won the game by switching to thor heavy army and abused the PDD. But any advice on how to deal with this better?
Thanks!
More bunkers, try to spread them out a bit vertically and horizontally so that he has to force field each one separately. if you don't have enough units to fill all the bunkers, leave the front ones with less units because those ones won't be repairable for sure and the units inside will get isolated.
Thanks for sharing this build to us. It's been my standard build against protoss. Just a quick question on defending toss pressure right before 1st thor coming out. I put 3 bunkers in natural for map Backwater Gulch but i faced a stalker with heavy sentries army which FF-ed my bunkers and i couldn't use SCV auto repairing at all. Also he attacked at an angle that only 2 bunkers were attacking his army.
I still won the game by switching to thor heavy army and abused the PDD. But any advice on how to deal with this better?
Thanks!
More bunkers, try to spread them out a bit vertically and horizontally so that he has to force field each one separately. if you don't have enough units to fill all the bunkers, leave the front ones with less units because those ones won't be repairable for sure and the units inside will get isolated.
Pretty much this. I personally would 2 Rax Stim expand on that map, because of the threat of the backdoor rocks being broken and your bunkers getting bypassed. However, bunkers are viable on that map too and I would follow Statikg's advice. If he's that heavy on sentries that he can FF multiple bunkers from being repaired, then his army DPS is much lower than what it needs to be to take out 3 bunkers + repair + marines. Pull SCVs if you have to. Cheers!
I cannot thank you enough, I love Banshees, and I love BCs even more. Cannot wait to start using this, however, do you think it is viable to go for ship upgrades before transitioning to BCs? In my experience, whenever using BCs, they are so much better with upgrades, and not particularly cost effective without upgrades. Since the upgrades would also benefit the banshees before transitioning into BCs, it seems like this would be a good idea? What do you think?
Thanks for sharing this build to us. It's been my standard build against protoss. Just a quick question on defending toss pressure right before 1st thor coming out. I put 3 bunkers in natural for map Backwater Gulch but i faced a stalker with heavy sentries army which FF-ed my bunkers and i couldn't use SCV auto repairing at all. Also he attacked at an angle that only 2 bunkers were attacking his army.
I still won the game by switching to thor heavy army and abused the PDD. But any advice on how to deal with this better?
Thanks!
More bunkers, try to spread them out a bit vertically and horizontally so that he has to force field each one separately. if you don't have enough units to fill all the bunkers, leave the front ones with less units because those ones won't be repairable for sure and the units inside will get isolated.
Pretty much this. I personally would 2 Rax Stim expand on that map, because of the threat of the backdoor rocks being broken and your bunkers getting bypassed. However, bunkers are viable on that map too and I would follow Statikg's advice. If he's that heavy on sentries that he can FF multiple bunkers from being repaired, then his army DPS is much lower than what it needs to be to take out 3 bunkers + repair + marines. Pull SCVs if you have to. Cheers!
Thank you guys. Will follow your advice. I think maybe i pulled my SCVs a bit slow as well. many thx!
On April 24 2011 02:31 implicit wrote: I knew the day would come that this build(in spirit at least) would be in the gsl... meta change inc?
I suuuuure hope so! :D
On April 24 2011 10:20 makesomenoiiise wrote: I cannot thank you enough, I love Banshees, and I love BCs even more. Cannot wait to start using this, however, do you think it is viable to go for ship upgrades before transitioning to BCs? In my experience, whenever using BCs, they are so much better with upgrades, and not particularly cost effective without upgrades. Since the upgrades would also benefit the banshees before transitioning into BCs, it seems like this would be a good idea? What do you think?
I think if you cut a couple banshees to start Ship Plating, that's fine. It's absolutely worth the gas expenditure in the late game and it's something I need to start implementing in my own games. 3 Armor BCs are the ULTIMATE tanks :D
Synstyr have you ever encountered a protoss going 1 base colossus push against this build? I've only run into it a few times but each time I got murdered because it hits when you only have marines in your bunkers and no thors out yet. It seems to be the hard counter to the build although protoss rarely use this push. Any ideas on how to defend against this?
On April 25 2011 12:51 Spiner wrote: Synstyr have you ever encountered a protoss going 1 base colossus push against this build? I've only run into it a few times but each time I got murdered because it hits when you only have marines in your bunkers and no thors out yet. It seems to be the hard counter to the build although protoss rarely use this push. Any ideas on how to defend against this?
If you don't scout an expansion, I'd tech straight to banshees.
I've been using this build a lot more, and winning nearly every game with it! Yesss!
Here's a question, In Synystyr's replays I see a lot of pushes around 14:00, which is exactly when my pushes occur with ~10 Banshee. It's a very strong timing., However, what would happen if I waited to push until a little later, waiting for 1/1 and perhaps even a few BC? This is assuming that my opponent has not yet scouted my 4 Port, of course. Does this build get stronger as it grows, or is the 14:00 timing necessary to exploit?
On April 25 2011 12:51 Spiner wrote: Synstyr have you ever encountered a protoss going 1 base colossus push against this build? I've only run into it a few times but each time I got murdered because it hits when you only have marines in your bunkers and no thors out yet. It seems to be the hard counter to the build although protoss rarely use this push. Any ideas on how to defend against this?
I have, and it's all about delaying until your Thor+Banshee pop out. As soon as you kill the observer (if there is one), you will be able to push Protoss back by focusing the Colossus down. Once you are able to do that, you should be ahead or at least even with your opponent and your unit composition later on should be superior because Protoss went so deep down one tech tree. Repair to delay, pull back and use your CC as a damage soaker while waiting.
On April 25 2011 13:30 RukKus wrote: I've been using this build a lot more, and winning nearly every game with it! Yesss!
Here's a question, In Synystyr's replays I see a lot of pushes around 14:00, which is exactly when my pushes occur with ~10 Banshee. It's a very strong timing., However, what would happen if I waited to push until a little later, waiting for 1/1 and perhaps even a few BC? This is assuming that my opponent has not yet scouted my 4 Port, of course. Does this build get stronger as it grows, or is the 14:00 timing necessary to exploit?
Thanks!
If your opponent is going heavy heavy Chargelot/Colossi or is significantly lacking in AA, then yes, the longer you can macro up an Air based army, the harder it will be for Protoss to deal with it. There will be absolutely no way for him to get an army out fast enough that can deal with what you have. If you can reach BCs safely and unscouted (though I doubt that should EVER happen), then you win.
You have to be diligent about your scouting. If it goes later into the game and your opponent gets HTs out, you could be in big trouble if you mismicro against storms. The longer the game goes, the more storms you'll have to deal with. The best possible timing window you can attack with is when your opponent has already committed to a heavy ground force and scouts your play. He has to transition as fast as possible and you can abuse this huge window from there.
You should also push as soon as you see a Stargate or Templar Archives just starting. Those are great timing windows to abuse because they are in the process of transitioning and will be very weak before they can mass the proper units out.
A sneak peek at the next balance changes! Lets see what this means for this build.
PROTOSS
Archons are now a massive unit. No effect, we don't use Conc. Shells
Pylon power radius has been decreased from 7.5 to 6.5. Makes it much easier to stop proxy warp ins that try and bypass our bunkers
Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 180. Obviously 4 Gate timings will be later, which means bunkers are guaranteed to go up and should be easier to defend early pushes
Sentry train time decreased from 42 to 37.
Stalker train time decreased from 42 to 37.
Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.
Warp Gate unit train times remain unchanged.
Zealot/Stalker pokes early on can be very dangerous if the Protoss has good micro, you don't, and they decide to keep reinforcing it. The lower build time makes for proxy gateways to be powerful if unscouted and you are unprepared.
TERRAN
Ghost cost changed from 150/150 to 200/100. A buff in my eyes. This means that we can implement Ghosts into this playstyle! This brings the cost of a Ghost to just a little more than a Banshee and will be very easy to synergize into the army once we get our third base. Will be good to use against HT tech.
Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%. A nerf is a nerf. With only 3 bunkers going down we only lose 75 minerals, which we already have a surplus of anyways so this shouldn't affect the flow of the build.
Bug Fixes
Fixed a bug where Ghosts could not quickly EMP the same location. Doesn't hurt us
Fixed a bug where players were still able to stack flying units on top of each other.If this means Banshees can't stack, then Psi Storms will be HUGELY mitigated. I like where this is going :D
Overall, I think the most important aspect of this patch is the Ghost change. Warpgate rushes were never really a problem for the openers used for this build anyways so it just means an even safer early game. I'll take it. However, the Ghost change opens up a new avenue. After we get our third base and see what tech path the Protoss decides to take to deal with air, we can either go BCs or Ghosts instead. If Protoss goes Stargate tech, it'd be wise to make BCs while HT tech would force Ghosts to deal with them. I'm excited for this patch :D What are your thoughts?
exytremely good build i do it on 1 base with 2 ports cquse its safer and i love wining vs toss who think are netter than me i have atleast 90& win rate if needed ill post every replay i have vs toss and im 5th diamomd league playin vs diamondmaster opppnents only counter is 3gate starhgate thays why only 90&
On April 26 2011 20:47 Rexar123 wrote: exytremely good build i do it on 1 base with 2 ports cquse its safer and i love wining vs toss who think are netter than me i have atleast 90& win rate if needed ill post every replay i have vs toss and im 5th diamomd league playin vs diamondmaster opppnents only counter is 3gate starhgate thays why only 90&
This build and 2 Port Banshee are worlds apart I wouldn't consider them the same at all. You'll find that once you hit higher Diamond/Masters, 2 Port Banshee won't work quite as well because it is very much a 1 Base allin that's not too difficult to defend once Protoss realizes it. Regardless, it once again displays how powerful Terran air is against Protoss
i've been dying a lot to 3 gate void high ground warp ins with the second build order. any suggestions? in fairness that build seems to do extremely well vs most terran openings, but maybe there is something i can be doing differently..
On April 26 2011 21:13 rmAmnesiac wrote: i've been dying a lot to 3 gate void high ground warp ins with the second build order. any suggestions? in fairness that build seems to do extremely well vs most terran openings, but maybe there is something i can be doing differently..
Post a replay for the best analysis
But yes, I can help. If you scout a second early gas, completely cut marauder production and just make marines. Void Rays work against Marauder openings simply because it renders the Marauder useless. By cutting them, you'll have many more Marines and with good micro and a bunker or two at the ramp, you should be able to hold.
Any time you expect that they might go Stargate, just go pure marine. It's still a very safe expand build and will work against just about every Protoss opener. Marauders are much, much safer however if you do happen to scout a 4 Gate.
On April 26 2011 20:47 Rexar123 wrote: exytremely good build i do it on 1 base with 2 ports cquse its safer and i love wining vs toss who think are netter than me i have atleast 90& win rate if needed ill post every replay i have vs toss and im 5th diamomd league playin vs diamondmaster opppnents only counter is 3gate starhgate thays why only 90&
This build and 2 Port Banshee are worlds apart I wouldn't consider them the same at all. You'll find that once you hit higher Diamond/Masters, 2 Port Banshee won't work quite as well because it is very much a 1 Base allin that's not too difficult to defend once Protoss realizes it. Regardless, it once again displays how powerful Terran air is against Protoss
lol i push out at 10:30 with raven 140 energy,200 mana medivac(used before for helliom drop) 6 banshees and 20 marines with stim i land CC on expo during attack and i win it 90&
btw u prob didnt hear me i am 5th diamond rexar658 on eu server with 490 pts and your build is fragile to 3gate void ray or atleast when i try it cause void ray go and kill my main and army attacks from front and u give your opponent time to make templars but terram air is strong vs toss
On April 26 2011 20:47 Rexar123 wrote: exytremely good build i do it on 1 base with 2 ports cquse its safer and i love wining vs toss who think are netter than me i have atleast 90& win rate if needed ill post every replay i have vs toss and im 5th diamomd league playin vs diamondmaster opppnents only counter is 3gate starhgate thays why only 90&
This build and 2 Port Banshee are worlds apart I wouldn't consider them the same at all. You'll find that once you hit higher Diamond/Masters, 2 Port Banshee won't work quite as well because it is very much a 1 Base allin that's not too difficult to defend once Protoss realizes it. Regardless, it once again displays how powerful Terran air is against Protoss
lol i push out at 10:30 with raven 140 energy,200 mana medivac(used before for helliom drop) 6 banshees and 20 marines with stim i land CC on expo during attack and i win it 90&
btw u prob didnt hear me i am 5th diamond rexar658 on eu server with 490 pts and your build is fragile to 3gate void ray or atleast when i try it cause void ray go and kill my main and army attacks from front and u give your opponent time to make templars but terram air is strong vs toss
Not that it really matters, but I'm Masters so I have a pretty good understanding of what you're doing and how it works. A 10:30 expansion is extremely, extremely late and if you do not do absolutely terrible damage, you will be behind. It is a VERY powerful push however. And 3 Gate Void Ray isn't that bad....Repaired bunkers + marine/Thor deals with it nicely. Just be sure to scout a delayed expansion and double gas early and you know what to expect.
Just lost my first game using this build, it was a tournament match and it was tied 1-1. I pulled this build out on Tal'Darim hoping to get an unexpected victory (I used bio the other 2 games). I shouldn't have, as both games prior my opponent pulled a LOT of early aggressive play bringing chrono'd out Stalker+Zealot to safely secure his fast expansion.
I placed the 3 bunkers in a diagonal line to equally cover attack paths from TDA's natural ramp and 3rd base location -- this Bunker placement I feel is optimal for this map. I barely held off very early aggression, and even some scouting around my base I was able to pluck off Proxy Pylon.
However, it was the push that came around 10:30 that did me in -- just as my first set of Banshees were half done, and Raven was mere seconds away from a PDD. A large Stalker/Sentry army came, FF spam my bunkers, preventing retreat. Took out my natural and all my marines. My Banshees came, seconds too late. PDD+Banshee pushed his attack back, but I knew I had lost momentum. I could not recover economically, and after defending wave after wave I was finally overwhelmed.
I'll provide a replay for analysis when I get home, but I feel 10:00-11:00 is definitely a weak moment for pushes. 3 Bunkers are great early on... perhaps I needed an early Thor. I was saving up for constant Banshee production and perhaps was a bit too over confident. I'd like to know how to refine this build and prevent pushes like that from overwhelming me again. Anyways, expect replay soon
On April 27 2011 05:49 RukKus wrote: Just lost my first game using this build, it was a tournament match and it was tied 1-1. I pulled this build out on Tal'Darim hoping to get an unexpected victory (I used bio the other 2 games). I shouldn't have, as both games prior my opponent pulled a LOT of early aggressive play bringing chrono'd out Stalker+Zealot to safely secure his fast expansion.
I placed the 3 bunkers in a diagonal line to equally cover attack paths from TDA's natural ramp and 3rd base location -- this Bunker placement I feel is optimal for this map. I barely held off very early aggression, and even some scouting around my base I was able to pluck off Proxy Pylon.
However, it was the push that came around 10:30 that did me in -- just as my first set of Banshees were half done, and Raven was mere seconds away from a PDD. A large Stalker/Sentry army came, FF spam my bunkers, preventing retreat. Took out my natural and all my marines. My Banshees came, seconds too late. PDD+Banshee pushed his attack back, but I knew I had lost momentum. I could not recover economically, and after defending wave after wave I was finally overwhelmed.
I'll provide a replay for analysis when I get home, but I feel 10:00-11:00 is definitely a weak moment for pushes. 3 Bunkers are great early on... perhaps I needed an early Thor. I was saving up for constant Banshee production and perhaps was a bit too over confident. I'd like to know how to refine this build and prevent pushes like that from overwhelming me again. Anyways, expect replay soon
Yes, I would love to see this replay and analyze it for myself Maybe there was something you missed and I'd like to find out. I don't recall many instances of this happening in my games where I was just flat out broken with a timing push from Protoss. I've been able to hold off most aggression with what I have at the time. It's all about surviving by the skin of your teeth
Just lost on Shattered Temple... Got pushed at choke, when there was only 12 rines - the P simply FF'ed the entire repair field -_- so that my SCV's were unable to repair. any tips?
On April 29 2011 00:59 icclown wrote: Just lost on Shattered Temple... Got pushed at choke, when there was only 12 rines - the P simply FF'ed the entire repair field -_- so that my SCV's were unable to repair. any tips?
You want to spread your bunkers out on that because the choke is wide. If possible, 1-2 squares apart for each bunker. That forces the Protoss to use more forcefields to cover the surface area to repair. I believe in the replay I posted, I scouted the push coming and pulled my SCVs earlier and spread them around all of the bunkers so that it was impossible to forcefield all of the SCVs from repairing.
If at all possible, could you also post a replay of that game? I'd love to take a look at it for myself. Thanks!
i'd just like to say that i've been using this build to great effect at the diamond level. I'll even post some replays when i get home.
My play is sloppy because i'm so used to doing an early one base push, but when you hold off an early stalker/zealot push with your bunkers and then just macro/mass up and then push out with banshees, raven, marines...no protoss has come close to defending it.
I've been thinkin of a way to transition out of lzgamers build once collsai come into play, and I think because I only 3 fac, I could easily 2-3 port transition out because I only need 1 gas, 2 max for the 3 fac heavy hellions..
Don't you think that the 3 fac opening could be a good leeway into a 3-4port, as the timing push is so EPICLY strong if they don't have 1-2 collsai out.
It would be a late transition, but off 2 base with 4 gas only 2 being needed, you could stock pile a tonnn of gas, and just banshee hellion tank raven as the counter to mass hellion/tank/marine does not counter banshees all too particularly well.
I gotta work an at least 2 port transition so I can banshee those god damn collsai transitions. It's really the only time I lose with that 3 fac build is those damn 1 base collsai.
On April 29 2011 03:02 tosog wrote: Hey. I really like this build(like, it's renewed my love for starcraft) But! I actually do lose!!!!!! This is not acceptable. I lose to most types of all ins. Here's a recent example: http://www.2shared.com/file/hpLpkjrs/Tosog_v_paradox_TvP_2_rax_FE_v.html
Is there something I can do? I'm not 100% pre-pulled SCV's could even stop that with 2 immortals.
Okay, I reviewed your replay for you. The biggest mistake you made was using the wrong build order. On maps with open naturals such as Slag Pit, you need to 2 Rax Stim Expand, not Bunker Expand. This is because runbys and focusfiring of bunkers are so so much easier. The point of the 3 bunkers at a choke is so you can combine firepower, prevent runbys and make it easier to repair.
With Stim Expand, you have a mobile force + a couple backup bunkers to cover the open ground. Otherwise, to deal with that push, you need to have an SCV scout it right before it pushes, preemptively bring SCVs to your bunkers to repair and then use your bunkers to focus fire down the Immortals first and you should be good to go.
One quick question: Sentries using hallucinated phoenix's could really be detrimental to this build! :O but other than that i like it, Ive been doing the tank marine raven banshee build and it works decently, but this looks even better. Thanks for the guide!! ^^
On April 29 2011 06:24 iAmJeffReY wrote: I've been thinkin of a way to transition out of lzgamers build once collsai come into play, and I think because I only 3 fac, I could easily 2-3 port transition out because I only need 1 gas, 2 max for the 3 fac heavy hellions..
Don't you think that the 3 fac opening could be a good leeway into a 3-4port, as the timing push is so EPICLY strong if they don't have 1-2 collsai out.
It would be a late transition, but off 2 base with 4 gas only 2 being needed, you could stock pile a tonnn of gas, and just banshee hellion tank raven as the counter to mass hellion/tank/marine does not counter banshees all too particularly well.
I gotta work an at least 2 port transition so I can banshee those god damn collsai transitions. It's really the only time I lose with that 3 fac build is those damn 1 base collsai.
I have yet to actually try the 3 Fact build yet, but it does sound really strong and fun. As long as I could transition into heavy Air play later if Protoss commits heavily into Robo, then I think this would work absolutely fine. It would probably be something I would transition into after taking a 3rd. I'd be a little worried about heavy Void Ray play so I'd be prepared to get Starports down earlier in case Vikings need to come into play quickly. Definitely something I'd like to play around with :D
On April 30 2011 16:08 OSM.OneManArmy wrote: One quick question: Sentries using hallucinated phoenix's could really be detrimental to this build! :O but other than that i like it, Ive been doing the tank marine raven banshee build and it works decently, but this looks even better. Thanks for the guide!! ^^
Hallucinated Phoenix are by far the best way to scout this build, and if you don't notice that it's a hallucination, then you might overcommit in viking production and severely hurt your Banshee numbers. That being said, just because I get scouted out doesn't mean that this unit composition is any less scary. Just build what you need to deal with what Protoss has and you should always come out ahead
I kinda wonder how this does against a 3 gate expand on maps with open chokes, since you seem to expo pretty fast and tech pretty heavily. If I go 3 gate I usually cotain while going for an expansion at the same time until the usualy mediavac timing hits, I guess your going to be pretty gast starved if your expo is late.
On April 29 2011 06:24 iAmJeffReY wrote: I've been thinkin of a way to transition out of lzgamers build once collsai come into play, and I think because I only 3 fac, I could easily 2-3 port transition out because I only need 1 gas, 2 max for the 3 fac heavy hellions..
Don't you think that the 3 fac opening could be a good leeway into a 3-4port, as the timing push is so EPICLY strong if they don't have 1-2 collsai out.
It would be a late transition, but off 2 base with 4 gas only 2 being needed, you could stock pile a tonnn of gas, and just banshee hellion tank raven as the counter to mass hellion/tank/marine does not counter banshees all too particularly well.
I gotta work an at least 2 port transition so I can banshee those god damn collsai transitions. It's really the only time I lose with that 3 fac build is those damn 1 base collsai.
I have yet to actually try the 3 Fact build yet, but it does sound really strong and fun. As long as I could transition into heavy Air play later if Protoss commits heavily into Robo, then I think this would work absolutely fine. It would probably be something I would transition into after taking a 3rd. I'd be a little worried about heavy Void Ray play so I'd be prepared to get Starports down earlier in case Vikings need to come into play quickly. Definitely something I'd like to play around with :D
That's exactly what I have been doing, I take a quick third after my push (protected by siege tanks), and I transition to banshees while adding some thors for defense. I have to work the exact timings yet, but it helps a lot against mass collossi.
On May 02 2011 22:08 Despicatus wrote: I kinda wonder how this does against a 3 gate expand on maps with open chokes, since you seem to expo pretty fast and tech pretty heavily. If I go 3 gate I usually cotain while going for an expansion at the same time until the usualy mediavac timing hits, I guess your going to be pretty gast starved if your expo is late.
There are no medivacs in this build. I don't mind if you contain me when I expand. I have no urges to push out of my base until I reach a critical mass of banshees. The only excursions I'll make from my base is a single unit scout or cloaked Banshee harass. The expand I'm doing is very safe and shouldn't be broken by 3 Gate pressure. Once the midgame push happens, it's all down to unit compositions and who could eke out the most economically. I take a third when I push and get a Fusion Core + air upgrades out.
On April 29 2011 06:24 iAmJeffReY wrote: I've been thinkin of a way to transition out of lzgamers build once collsai come into play, and I think because I only 3 fac, I could easily 2-3 port transition out because I only need 1 gas, 2 max for the 3 fac heavy hellions..
Don't you think that the 3 fac opening could be a good leeway into a 3-4port, as the timing push is so EPICLY strong if they don't have 1-2 collsai out.
It would be a late transition, but off 2 base with 4 gas only 2 being needed, you could stock pile a tonnn of gas, and just banshee hellion tank raven as the counter to mass hellion/tank/marine does not counter banshees all too particularly well.
I gotta work an at least 2 port transition so I can banshee those god damn collsai transitions. It's really the only time I lose with that 3 fac build is those damn 1 base collsai.
I have yet to actually try the 3 Fact build yet, but it does sound really strong and fun. As long as I could transition into heavy Air play later if Protoss commits heavily into Robo, then I think this would work absolutely fine. It would probably be something I would transition into after taking a 3rd. I'd be a little worried about heavy Void Ray play so I'd be prepared to get Starports down earlier in case Vikings need to come into play quickly. Definitely something I'd like to play around with :D
That's exactly what I have been doing, I take a quick third after my push (protected by siege tanks), and I transition to banshees while adding some thors for defense. I have to work the exact timings yet, but it helps a lot against mass collossi.
I'm a big fan of double expands, and on certain maps they are very easy to pull off. I think turtling up with mech early on and then transitioning quickly into air once your third is fully established is the best way of pulling this off. Will have to play with this much more. I want to have an arsenal of expansive Air based plays that can either start off with Bio or Mech expands. Thorzain's Thor/Viking build REALLY struck an impression on me and I think I could pull of a variation of it with my openers. Can't wait to test it out =]
I'm really bummed I was so busy over the week and didn't get a chance to submit a Funday Monday entry for this week, but it was one that was really frigging excited to see happen. For those who didn't know, it was a limitation on Terran where you could only have one Barracks and one Factory (MASS AIR!!). I LOVE THIS STYLE!! You guys should REALLY check this out as an awesome example as to why this rocks so much
I recommend Game 1 extremely. It shows how badly mass Banshees dominates an unsuspecting Protoss. Nothing is more one-sided than this. (Is this the same Debo that's friends with Destiny?) Check it out!!
Banshees are great units and somewhat durable. They are your "mutalisks"; make sure that you don't lose them in stupid fights and learn when to retreat with them.
Ravens are so good. I always bring 2 or 3. PDD is most probably the best spell in the entire game. There is no spell that NULLIFIES damage completely. Stalkers do 0 damage and so do Phoenixes.
Also, Vikings do really well against Phoenixes. I keep reactors/tech labs on my barracks and swap the reactor barrack with a starport to make Vikings to fight pheonixes.
On May 04 2011 00:06 Velladin wrote: I'd like to add something to this build.
Banshees are great units and somewhat durable. They are your "mutalisks"; make sure that you don't lose them in stupid fights and learn when to retreat with them.
Ravens are so good. I always bring 2 or 3. PDD is most probably the best spell in the entire game. There is no spell that NULLIFIES damage completely. Stalkers do 0 damage and so do Phoenixes.
Also, Vikings do really well against Phoenixes. I keep reactors/tech labs on my barracks and swap the reactor barrack with a starport to make Vikings to fight pheonixes.
While it is a good idea in theory to reactor Vikings out when up against Phoenix, I've found that 4 Starports with Tech Labs will get your a lot of Vikings out quickly. Also, you simply can't afford to produce 4 reactors solely for the purpose of hotswapping and then afford 5+ vikings in production at the same time. You just don't have the funds off 2 bases.
Extra Ravens however never hurt since PDD really is such a powerful spell. You just need to find the right balance between Ravens and Banshees because too many Ravens weakens your army incredibly. I'd say 3 at the most when pushing out.
Hey there - I just read about this build last night and it looks really interesting! Can't wait to try it out. I watched a TLO v. Socke game commentary, just posted this morning, where TLO did this build - with the exception of instead of transitioning into battlecruisers after the first push, he transitioned into mass marauders + medivac/raven/banshee
On May 06 2011 02:31 atirtanadi wrote: Hey there - I just read about this build last night and it looks really interesting! Can't wait to try it out. I watched a TLO v. Socke game commentary, just posted this morning, where TLO did this build - with the exception of instead of transitioning into battlecruisers after the first push, he transitioned into mass marauders + medivac/raven/banshee
Yes! More TLO VODs! Thank you very very very much for linking this to me I love watching him use this style. The mass marauder transition is so smart if Protoss doesn't go Stargate tech to deal with Banshees. Marauders > Stalkers by a long shot and there will be next to no Zealot/Colossi/Immortal on the field so this is as strong of a transition as BC is. Thanks again!
On May 06 2011 02:31 atirtanadi wrote: Hey there - I just read about this build last night and it looks really interesting! Can't wait to try it out. I watched a TLO v. Socke game commentary, just posted this morning, where TLO did this build - with the exception of instead of transitioning into battlecruisers after the first push, he transitioned into mass marauders + medivac/raven/banshee
Yes! More TLO VODs! Thank you very very very much for linking this to me I love watching him use this style. The mass marauder transition is so smart if Protoss doesn't go Stargate tech to deal with Banshees. Marauders > Stalkers by a long shot and there will be next to no Zealot/Colossi/Immortal on the field so this is as strong of a transition as BC is. Thanks again!
I actually find that this transition is even better then BC. The two counters to banshees are typically phenoixes which become wasted money and stalkers which marauders do even better against than BCs. If they go HT tech you definintiely need to go into BCs though ;p. It works best if you are doing a heavy banshee harass style rather then a marine/banshee push style because you have so many minerals available.
On May 06 2011 02:31 atirtanadi wrote: Hey there - I just read about this build last night and it looks really interesting! Can't wait to try it out. I watched a TLO v. Socke game commentary, just posted this morning, where TLO did this build - with the exception of instead of transitioning into battlecruisers after the first push, he transitioned into mass marauders + medivac/raven/banshee
Yes! More TLO VODs! Thank you very very very much for linking this to me I love watching him use this style. The mass marauder transition is so smart if Protoss doesn't go Stargate tech to deal with Banshees. Marauders > Stalkers by a long shot and there will be next to no Zealot/Colossi/Immortal on the field so this is as strong of a transition as BC is. Thanks again!
I actually find that this transition is even better then BC. The two counters to banshees are typically phenoixes which become wasted money and stalkers which marauders do even better against than BCs. If they go HT tech you definintiely need to go into BCs though ;p. It works best if you are doing a heavy banshee harass style rather then a marine/banshee push style because you have so many minerals available.
Yeah it is pretty solid. Phoenix can till be annoying against Marauders if there are enough of them out and can pick up the majority of my army. I think a transition into MMMVG could would so long as there are no Colossi or HTs out. Phoenix+Colossi would die to the Viking count and allow me to get Medivacs for my Bio easily. The only problem I have with this transition is that I might be behind on upgrades and if the Protoss has enough Gateways, a quick mass Chargelot warpin could still hurt me a lot. I'll have to watch more TLO games and see how those go =]
Synystyr question for you, why don't you use Thors in this build anymore? I've been doing the original build with the thors since you posted it, the only thing that has beat me is 4 gates I didn’t see early enough to defend against, and mass Stalker/VR, which again was a scouting issue on my part, other than that this has been working for me with great success and I don’t have the timings even close to perfect for it at all.
On May 06 2011 23:13 BONE wrote: Synystyr question for you, why don't you use Thors in this build anymore? I've been doing the original build with the thors since you posted it, the only thing that has beat me is 4 gates I didn’t see early enough to defend against, and mass Stalker/VR, which again was a scouting issue on my part, other than that this has been working for me with great success and I don’t have the timings even close to perfect for it at all.
O_o
I haven't taken out the Thors in the build. There are simply just two different openers that I use because of map dependency. You might be thinking of the second build order I use for maps with open naturals such as Metal or XNC. You can't safely expand with only marines and bunkers on a map like this so I opt for a Stim expand with only 1-2 bunkers instead so I have a stronger, mobile standing army to defend instead. It's not as strong in the midgame push as the 2 Rax 3 Bunker expand build but it gets the job done
Hey there! Another TLO game was just posted - TLO v. Farmer. He does a variation on the 2 rax FE opening, going to 4 starport banshees, but they get scouted! The protoss player goes double stargate phoenix in response, which shuts down the banshees. TLO transitions into battlecruisers, but the protoss player transitions into carriers to match! Then TLO transitions into battlecruiser/banshee/marine/marauder/medivac/raven/GHOST and uses some nice nukes while making a half-dozen planetary fortresses. Eventually, the whole map gets mined out and TLO wins.
On May 07 2011 15:03 atirtanadi wrote: Hey there! Another TLO game was just posted - TLO v. Farmer. He does a variation on the 2 rax FE opening, going to 4 starport banshees, but they get scouted! The protoss player goes double stargate phoenix in response, which shuts down the banshees. TLO transitions into battlecruisers, but the protoss player transitions into carriers to match! Then TLO transitions into battlecruiser/banshee/marine/marauder/medivac/raven/GHOST and uses some nice nukes while making a half-dozen planetary fortresses. Eventually, the whole map gets mined out and TLO wins.
Yes I watched this game last night! Thanks again for posting another awesome TLO VOD I appreciate it! Carriers + Motherships are something I have not played against before with this build because usually the game ends before that stage. I believe just massing Vikings to take out the air fleet and then a transition to BC/Banshee would handle it well, but TLO shows us Nukes do the job just as well!! Ghosts have great synergy with this build so I need to learn how to use them properly and implement them in here Thanks again!
I think a great way to integrate ghosts into this build is to build the ghost academy at the same time you take a third. If your initial push fails, try to do some harassment with your ghosts while you're massing a BC army. If you can land a nuke on their pylon field you'll be able to supply-block them for a long time, allowing you to mass your army quicker. APM-wise, ghosts obviously take a lot of APM to harass with effectively, but once you have your third up, you don't really need to devote a lot of attention to macroing your BC army. Remember, it only takes 2 shots from a ghost to take down an observer.
I haven't actually tried this transition yet, just a thought
On May 08 2011 03:59 atirtanadi wrote: I think a great way to integrate ghosts into this build is to build the ghost academy at the same time you take a third. If your initial push fails, try to do some harassment with your ghosts while you're massing a BC army. If you can land a nuke on their pylon field you'll be able to supply-block them for a long time, allowing you to mass your army quicker. APM-wise, ghosts obviously take a lot of APM to harass with effectively, but once you have your third up, you don't really need to devote a lot of attention to macroing your BC army. Remember, it only takes 2 shots from a ghost to take down an observer.
I haven't actually tried this transition yet, just a thought
That's what I was thinking too. Take your third and pick a tech path depending on what Protoss chose to mass in order to deal with your mass Air army. Ghosts for HTs and BCs for Stargate/Stalkers. Eventually you want to have access to everything though. All you really need to do is land 2-3 solid EMPs on the clumped up deathball and that should be more than enough to easily turn the game in your favor.
I'm a gold (on the verge of plat) T and I've been trying this build against my a friend who is a plat toss who loves to go 3 gate robo.
He has been pushing me at the 8:30-8:45 mark with 4 zealots, 5 stalkers, 3 sentries, and 1 immortal. He has a proxy pylon close by for reinforcements. His push has been crushing me before I can get the Raven out of the first starport.
I've tried both variations of the build against his push: 3 Bunker Marine -- I can hold his inital push but first reinforcing warp in kills me. 2 Bunker MM Stim -- Can't seem to survive even the first push.
Do you have any replays you could post against a push like this for me to study? His force fields combined with the immortal really take down my bunkers fast!
I really love the idea of this build but don't want to try it on ladder till I have all the kinks worked out. I can try to find a replay to post if needed.
On May 07 2011 15:03 atirtanadi wrote: Hey there! Another TLO game was just posted - TLO v. Farmer. He does a variation on the 2 rax FE opening, going to 4 starport banshees, but they get scouted! The protoss player goes double stargate phoenix in response, which shuts down the banshees. TLO transitions into battlecruisers, but the protoss player transitions into carriers to match! Then TLO transitions into battlecruiser/banshee/marine/marauder/medivac/raven/GHOST and uses some nice nukes while making a half-dozen planetary fortresses. Eventually, the whole map gets mined out and TLO wins.
I use this build all the time, thanks very much for putting it together, Synystyr!
I really like the clever aspects of it, like denying your opponent scouting information. I usually place my marines and Thors where observers can easily see them, baiting them into making Immortals, Colossi, and Zealots.
I saw a discussion earlier about whether a gold level player like myself could use this build effectively. I regularly beat Platinum players with it, so I thought I would post a ladder replay of myself doing just that. Rednox (me, Gold) vs klipz (Platinum).
I'm a gold (on the verge of plat) T and I've been trying this build against my a friend who is a plat toss who loves to go 3 gate robo.
He has been pushing me at the 8:30-8:45 mark with 4 zealots, 5 stalkers, 3 sentries, and 1 immortal. He has a proxy pylon close by for reinforcements. His push has been crushing me before I can get the Raven out of the first starport.
I've tried both variations of the build against his push: 3 Bunker Marine -- I can hold his inital push but first reinforcing warp in kills me. 2 Bunker MM Stim -- Can't seem to survive even the first push.
Do you have any replays you could post against a push like this for me to study? His force fields combined with the immortal really take down my bunkers fast!
I really love the idea of this build but don't want to try it on ladder till I have all the kinks worked out. I can try to find a replay to post if needed.
-roberT
I think the best way to help you out with this push is if I could see a replay and analyze it instead. I don't have any replays of that specific situation unfortunately I'd love to take a look and help you out if possible though!
On May 07 2011 15:03 atirtanadi wrote: Hey there! Another TLO game was just posted - TLO v. Farmer. He does a variation on the 2 rax FE opening, going to 4 starport banshees, but they get scouted! The protoss player goes double stargate phoenix in response, which shuts down the banshees. TLO transitions into battlecruisers, but the protoss player transitions into carriers to match! Then TLO transitions into battlecruiser/banshee/marine/marauder/medivac/raven/GHOST and uses some nice nukes while making a half-dozen planetary fortresses. Eventually, the whole map gets mined out and TLO wins.
Is there an actual replay of this so I can watch without having to endure Husky?
Not that I have access to but I'll search around and try to ask Husky or TLO.
On May 09 2011 10:18 Codepoet wrote: I use this build all the time, thanks very much for putting it together, Synystyr!
I really like the clever aspects of it, like denying your opponent scouting information. I usually place my marines and Thors where observers can easily see them, baiting them into making Immortals, Colossi, and Zealots.
I saw a discussion earlier about whether a gold level player like myself could use this build effectively. I regularly beat Platinum players with it, so I thought I would post a ladder replay of myself doing just that. Rednox (me, Gold) vs klipz (Platinum).
Cool cool! I really love that you picked up on the subtleties It's nice to see people understand the little things about this build that makes it so damn strong Will definitely take a look at your replay when I get out of work :D
what do you do against phoenix openings? i just had a game with the protoss going for 4 early pheonixes for harass. problems are they did harass my workerline quite a bit theres no way you can hide your tech from phoenix scouts they might even pick up popping raven or banshees
ive tried going for BC's asap but ended up with not enough banshees to get rid of his stalkers and got overrun
so what do you do when getting your whole biuld scouted early in generall? maybe deviate into some kind of thor raven 2base allin?
On May 16 2011 00:51 Jacen88 wrote: what do you do against phoenix openings? i just had a game with the protoss going for 4 early pheonixes for harass. problems are they did harass my workerline quite a bit theres no way you can hide your tech from phoenix scouts they might even pick up popping raven or banshees
ive tried going for BC's asap but ended up with not enough banshees to get rid of his stalkers and got overrun
so what do you do when getting your whole biuld scouted early in generall? maybe deviate into some kind of thor raven 2base allin?
Continue constant marine production and place them in areas that would intercept the Phoenix at your mineral lines. If you are getting Thors, place one in each mineral line and that should cover you from harass.
In terms of scouting, it may very well be impossible to deny it. However, with 4 starports, you can quickly match the number of Phoenix on the field with Vikings as Protoss will only have one Stargate. Most Protoss discontinue Phoenix production after harass is denied and transition out of it. You should get just enough Vikings so that your Thor/Marine/Viking combo can quickly deal with the phoenix and then transition back into Banshees.
If Phoenix production is continued, skip Banshees and go into BC tech while making only marines and saving your income for 4 BCs when your Fusion Core finishes. Here are a couple replays for examples....
Synystyr, in that video you just posted, were you able to hear the commentator? I didn't see any headphones on your ears, and he was saying things like "There's a protoss scout at the watchtower" seconds before you sent units to kill it Just wondering how tournaments like that worked with commentating
On May 16 2011 10:58 RukKus wrote: Synystyr, in that video you just posted, were you able to hear the commentator? I didn't see any headphones on your ears, and he was saying things like "There's a protoss scout at the watchtower" seconds before you sent units to kill it Just wondering how tournaments like that worked with commentating
It was a live showmatch at PAX East being cast by djWheat. No, we weren't given earphones so I was able to hear everything unfortunately xD. It wasn't ideal, but I still had no idea about the Phoenix opening and most of the details of the game. I knew I was ahead after the banshee harass however because there was zero detection because of no robo and lots of free probe kills. A very easy win from that point on ^^
I did win the Giantbomb Community Tournament without hearing commentators cast the game however VOD is in the Replays tab ^^
Great build Syn. It definitely lives up to it's name. I can't see anyone building Colossus with range and surviving the initial push. With the new patch it seems like everyone's trying to fit more ghosts into their play. Given that the things this build has the most problems with are HTs, phoenixes, and early sentries, have you given any thought to adding a few early ghosts into the build?
On May 24 2011 00:20 Treehead wrote: Great build Syn. It definitely lives up to it's name. I can't see anyone building Colossus with range and surviving the initial push. With the new patch it seems like everyone's trying to fit more ghosts into their play. Given that the things this build has the most problems with are HTs, phoenixes, and early sentries, have you given any thought to adding a few early ghosts into the build?
Of the three units you mentioned, the only one that actually gives this build trouble is HTs. Phoenix do cause annoyance, but that is because of how good they are against Terran air, not because of their ability to pick up units. Unfortunately, a Ghost is only a liability against Phoenix with this. To add early ghosts into the build (early as in before taking a third), then you'd either have to cut Thors out of Build Order 1 or delay your tech even later for Build Order 2, where Colossi and 2/2 timing pushes will run you over.
In my opinion, it is best to see how your timing push works out and see how Protoss reacts if they hold the push off. A Stargate response should have you teching towards BCs while HTs would force out Ghosts. Either way, I don't think early Ghosts are useful in any manner.
I've tried out this build and it's definitely worth the try BUT
I really don't understand how you're supposed to stop a 3 gate robo pressure with that. I've faced it 3 times and 3 times it just raped that build, even with proper bunker repair and decent micro. (and my opponent was nothing special, like high plat/low diam)
ChapFou, i'm preaty sure by your description your facing the same problem i was about a month ago. If you post a replay, i can give you better answer but i'm preaty sure that what your doing is placing your bunkers in strait line, alowing the toss to get a good FF arround them to prevent repair and force fire them down with immortals, ressulting in your loss afterwards.Instead put them behind one another, so that they form a double line of deffence, so that he needs double amount of FF to prevent your repair.
But in any case post a replay, and then we can help you easier.
If you see a 4Gate and you want to make sure you'll hold it off, you can put down 2 more Bunkers. But that's a lot of Minerals until you savage them. And squeezing sentries into a 4 Gate = less Stalkers = less firepower. Squeezing enough Sentries to deny repair on 3 Bunkers = impossible.
But then again you could invest in more Bunkers since a failed 4Gate push is instawin... you've got the cloacked Banshees and the expo.
On June 08 2011 19:03 ChApFoU wrote: I've tried out this build and it's definitely worth the try BUT
I really don't understand how you're supposed to stop a 3 gate robo pressure with that. I've faced it 3 times and 3 times it just raped that build, even with proper bunker repair and decent micro. (and my opponent was nothing special, like high plat/low diam)
Hey there,
Could you please post a replay? What it really comes down to in this is focusfiring down the Immortals quickly...would love to see the replay to check though. Immortal busts are actually quite easy to hold off if you scout it coming ahead of time. Thanks!
On June 08 2011 20:50 SergTom wrote: sentry can force field the bunkers and then just kill them. i would think a 4 gate could beat this build.
You'd think so, but not if you spread your bunkers and SCVs to repair like shown in this replay:
4 Gate push with sentries forcefielding the bunkers is exemplified here. I crush it without even losing a bunker. Take a look
On June 08 2011 22:21 SoftSoap wrote: Are archons a decent damage dealer to banshees? Are they strong against this build?
They're excellent against Banshees because of their high splash damage....but realistically an Archon should never be able to hit a Banshee. The Archon moves about ..06 faster than the banshee but has 3 less range. With decent kiting, archons pose little threat. Just be careful you don't get a shot off against your stacked Banshee clump.
Good job Synystyr , one of the best strategy ever. I am a gold terran player, been suffering alot when dealing with Protoss Death Ball.
I used this strategy against Protoss and Zerg,, and All I can say I enjoy the game more than ever now. Becasue it seems like with Banshee we are controlling the game pace, and opponent need to react on what we are actually building.
I will definately upgrade my building armor, range, PDD duration, and StarPort Attack, for better bunker tank, and also PDD and Harrasse with Auto Turret, if change to raven build at late game.
This is the best guide ever, game that I lose is mostly I din defend my base well, build enuf marine and bunker to tank their stalker and zealot.
For HT jsut ignore them or kite them and fly straight to their mineral line.
4 Gate push with sentries forcefielding the bunkers is exemplified here. I crush it without even losing a bunker. Take a look
That replay shows a 3 gate expand. Wrong replay?
Right you are. I'll have to double check...I think I labelled that one a 3 Gate Sentry push...my bad. This is a little bit more standard but less powerful than a 4 Gate. Either way, the same push occurs and you should be able to defend that in the same manner.
Limiting Marine production to 13 in the "easy-to-defend-expo" build order variation makes no sense. I pulled off this build making Marines the entire time. If you don't make more than 13 Marines, your minerals stack up like crazy b/c you're on 2 bases early on and making higher-tech units. The Marines are more important in the early game than the Thors are for the late game b/c the former holds off early aggression, while the latter really just exists to snipe Observers.
Used this twice today, worked twice I didn't adhere strictly to the BO provided by OP (because I couldn't remember it word for word) but I had Thors, Marines, Banshees and Ravens My my, it ripped
three full bunkers is 3x4=12 add one for scouting and holding a tower is 12+1=13
FUCK math is hard >_<
Well I thought he sticks to the Supply count.
Well obviously it doesn't have to be absolutely precise...those are just the build order timings up to the point where worker and unit deaths start to come in, so numbers become inconsistent. No big deal.
On July 10 2011 00:53 Diabolegal wrote: Limiting Marine production to 13 in the "easy-to-defend-expo" build order variation makes no sense. I pulled off this build making Marines the entire time. If you don't make more than 13 Marines, your minerals stack up like crazy b/c you're on 2 bases early on and making higher-tech units. The Marines are more important in the early game than the Thors are for the late game b/c the former holds off early aggression, while the latter really just exists to snipe Observers.
Really? I've always found myself starving for minerals once I get my Factory and Starport down. There is a very brief period where money piles up, but that is the point where you drop a Factory, Starport, Armory and a supply depot at the same time.
Whenever I get any extra money, I throw down up to three more barracks. This allows for 5 rax production and if need be, I can add tech labs on to them and make Marauder/Ghost as a transition. 3 bunkers with marines is enough to hold off any pressure until your Thor/Banshee combo arrive.
On July 10 2011 19:53 DisaFear wrote: Thanks for that, I sometimes use a 1rax FE to 3 port banshee but this looks safer and refined
On July 11 2011 17:56 DisaFear wrote: Used this twice today, worked twice I didn't adhere strictly to the BO provided by OP (because I couldn't remember it word for word) but I had Thors, Marines, Banshees and Ravens My my, it ripped
On July 11 2011 18:04 Ghostfoot wrote: IMO, this build is incredible abusive against protoss, 100% winrate with it so far.
Really? I've always found myself starving for minerals once I get my Factory and Starport down. There is a very brief period where money piles up, but that is the point where you drop a Factory, Starport, Armory and a supply depot at the same time.
Whenever I get any extra money, I throw down up to three more barracks. This allows for 5 rax production and if need be, I can add tech labs on to them and make Marauder/Ghost as a transition. 3 bunkers with marines is enough to hold off any pressure until your Thor/Banshee combo arrive.
I just ran the build again, and I think I'll just do it your way. If you stop making Marines at 13, you get your tech buildings out faster, and like you said you eventually spend the majority of the minerals when you get the Starports up.
Good strat, I beat my Masters protoss friend (who beat me 3-0 last year) with it. The surprise factor of this strat is a killer. And sniping nexus and robos. :O
Good strat, I beat my Masters protoss friend (who beat me 3-0 last year) with it. The surprise factor of this strat is a killer. And sniping nexus and robos. :O
Good grief, Charlie Brown: 292 games and only 140 wins. I can see why he's mad, especially with Season 3 around the corner.
I like heavy Starport play vs Protoss for the surprise factor, too. When they see something other than MMM + Ghosts + Vikings, they freak out. I especially love when they forcefield the Thors (though I'm only mid Diamond atm). Just goes to show how little experience they have vs a style like this.
I've been away from the game for a while....any players still using this and played against any Phoenix openers? I know they're starting to become popular now, so I wanted to see if the 2 Rax FE version still works since it gets two Thors quickly.
I think this would be enough to defend against Phoenix harass and any ground pushes quite feasibly. I think if I were to see Phoenix, I would rather go Thor/Viking/Hellion via Thorzain style, but 4 Starports pumping out Vikings should be just as safe, along with some cloaked banshee harass to punish any lack of detection. Let me know!
I am using this strategy a lot and I love it. Normally i go with just 1 thor und prefer to get more Ravens and 1 or 2 vikings for observer sniping. Although I am just an EU plat player I might give some hints for the later stages of the game: 1. Go for 3-3 Air ASAP 2. If he has temps keep your banshees cloaked at all times to deplete their energy 3. If you scout 1 or 2 starports immediately drop a fusion core to mix in some BC. 4. Add more ravens throughout the game as pdd get more important the more upgrades protoss has
observing that BO, and watching TLO's replays, this build seems awkwardly dependent on not being timely scouted.
I can imagine most 'toss players do, but I never go into a game with colossus ball in mind. I almost always react to Terran play. haven't encountered this build so far so I can't say how I'd do against it, but I sure as hell wouldn't rush for colossi upon scouting 4 starports
I see it that way: This build prevents a protoss from using collossi. If he still uses them he is screwed, if he doesnt use them ill have a lot of banshees which RAPE stalkers, ill have fast 3-3 air tech and can transition into viking/bc/raven/banshee. Terran has very strong air and this build just utilizes that fact
On August 01 2011 19:05 dysfunkt wrote: observing that BO, and watching TLO's replays, this build seems awkwardly dependent on not being timely scouted.
I can imagine most 'toss players do, but I never go into a game with colossus ball in mind. I almost always react to Terran play. haven't encountered this build so far so I can't say how I'd do against it, but I sure as hell wouldn't rush for colossi upon scouting 4 starports
There is a huge opportunity for a surprise attack that could end the game if your opponent is not diligent about his scouting or you deny scouting early. The initial response to seeing a Thor/Marine composition with your observer is something along the lines of mass ground units like Colossi, Zealots and Immortals to deal with it. However, this response is the complete opposite of what you need to deal with 4 starports. If you can deny scouting, you get a win.
If you do get scouted though, you limit Protoss responses.
Mass Stalker with upg HTs Stargate
Stalkers don't trade well with banshees, Stargate units can be countered by Starport units (Viking, BC) and HTs must use storm since feedback will never be able to hit every single Banshee. Storms can be dodged but can also wreck your entire army as well.
So....this build is extremely powerful if it's not scouted, but carries the same amount of strength over if scouted, unlike a cheese.
Lol I absolutely love Banshees, never thought of incorporating them into my main army tho.
I am silver and have been using this vs P and T and won both. Wonder if this will work vs Z? Remember this is lower level, silver. Plus the fact Z dont use units that attack air so much Apart from fungal and muta that is....
Mutas will wreck the Banshees! And your Marines will get roflstomped by Banes then Festors.
I have a question though: seeing that the current metagame favours HT play, isn't it a good idea to push ASAP when you have your Thor and Raven, as soon as you scout Twilight Council? What's the Storm timing off 2 bases? Isn't it better to commit the Banshees to harass if storm is scouted?
Is this build still viable in the current meta game? The early part seems vunurable against blink into your main or à drop in your main. Would not a 1 rax FE into 4 barrack into this build be safer? Also is getting cloak still viable? Nowadays protoss uses multiple observers and get them faster which means that 1. No protoss will be cougt observerless against late cloak. 2. It is much harder nowadays to snipe the observers in larger battles.
On February 12 2012 15:57 MockHamill wrote: Is this build still viable in the current meta game? The early part seems vunurable against blink into your main or à drop in your main. Would not a 1 rax FE into 4 barrack into this build be safer? Also is getting cloak still viable? Nowadays protoss uses multiple observers and get them faster which means that 1. No protoss will be cougt observerless against late cloak. 2. It is much harder nowadays to snipe the observers in larger battles.
Blink was always a problem using this build. It still is I'm sure. More warp prism use isn't happy either. Regarding observers, though, the goal was never to "catch him without an observer" - it was to scan his army and kill it at the beginning of the engagement and then wreck havoc while he builds a new one.
Edit: I'm bad so I can't tell you if its viable or not.