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Hey Vauld can I try playing you a few games. I'm like 2400 protoss though.
slained.778, your id?
edit: watched a couple of your reps, I think your opponents especially the one with blink build didn't really micro properly against VRs, in his case he always blinked away instead of towards and kite the VRs while moving away from the zealots. I don't think you should ever win against a proper blink build
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I actually don't think the void rays are what are winning this build, rather it is the heavy zealot force or the combination zealot/void ray that is winning. The void rays themselves are not amazing cost for cost against stalkers, but zealots in range are and what is happening is that the opponent has to choose kill the zealots and die to fully charged void rays or focus fire void rays while getting raped by zealots. In a normal stalker/sentry/zealot army, if these engage you want to kill the zealots first since stalkers aren't that great of dps if left alone, but because void rays are actually a threat when left alone, it entices the opponent to focus the void rays first which make their stalkers mince meat for the zealots. Once you have enough void rays (4-5) they scale significantly faster than stalkers because of their charge ability and ability to stack.
Now the question is how to transition. I like the idea of making 2 zealots, 4 sentries, 2 void rays and then expanding. After that maybe transitioning into charge and void ray speed, and shield upgrade (to benefit the zealots and void rays). Once you can get a third base then start getting stalkers and carriers? I need to see a pro use this build first.
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Saw the replays, voids are one of my fav units and I have had success against stalkers, but if they get blink like mentioned, ur gone. would help if u could get charge on zeals, the stalkers cant skite ur voids..does this work agasint zerg and terran? I mean if stalkers are AA so are marines..
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Kiwikaki does this together with immortals (2 gate robo stargate) which seems much more stable to me - the immortals somewhat "counter" blink-stalkers which should crush your build, if done by a competent player.
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I was working on a strategy similar to this before 1.1.2 came out. But I found that since then it loses very hard to stalker micro or phoenix/colossus, because you cannot charge the Voids on your buildings, and they do too little damage to un-armored units. I estimate this build will work up until the 2400 diamond range.
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Seems interesting, and doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, as I like to upgrade relatively early in mirror matchups, so I can make cannons for DTs. I'll give it a go.
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The build loses to stalkers. Tried it. It won't work well
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Thanks for all of the comments everyone! And now for specific replies.
@oZii + Show Spoiler +On November 29 2010 13:16 oZii wrote: I just watched 3 of your replays Vauld. Usually people like to discredit a build based upon the opponents they faced using the build. I will say that the Blink Stalker PvP your oponents macro was spot on. It was better than yours thats for sure (no offense) that right there is pretty telling about this build.
A bit of a break down of the replays I watched.
The game on Xelnaga I would say your opponent could have built more stuff his macro wasn't spectacular. He was going 2 gate robo. I don't think even if he went 3 gate he could have done anything. You had 4 voids at his base yea he didn't build alot of stuff but he was waiting for the information from his observer and by time it got to your base you already had 3 voids out. The immortals are really useless since your going basically zealot sentry Voids. You really are only getting a few sentries for key forcefields.
On lost temple where you defended the expo and where pressured hard by his stalkers that game was pretty close. I would say that as pointed out dark templar seems the best to counter this. I think that if he builds a few dark templar and sends them to your base and keeps more of his stalkers that he may win that. So its more 50/50 against DT's
The blink stalker rush on Metalopolis pretty much shows the power of this build. Yea the stalkers can blink but its almost neutralized because of the zealots are completely destroying the zealots. I think maybe a round or 2 of zealots from your opponents mixed in the with there stalkers would give them time to focus fire your voids down. Again not saying its a weakness of the build just that it would make the engagements more close to call. Sniping the cyber is almost as bad as sniping a nexus in a sense. After you lost your expo then countered and sniped his cyber it put him behind allowing you 2 re-expo. As you said protoss pretty much are only going to use stalkers for AA.
Overall thoughts:
I would say this is definitely solid build to be used in PvP. I dont think dark templar arguement is that valid yes dark templar can beat this but they can also beat 4 gate and its pretty much accepted that 4 gate is the standard Protoss build. So I still would consider this as viable as 2 gate robo or any other protoss build.
There is definitely room for much more refinement of this build for sure. There are points were you have alot of minerals and as I was watching it I was thinking to myself you could have warped in alot more zealots and probably ended many of your matches earlier. The zealots are just the meat for the voids to do there thing which is the same thing they are used for with colossus.
The common factor in all the replays is that you can tell the opponents and you are able to expand pretty safely.
I will defintely be using this build for sure. Thanks oZii, appreciate the compliments, that's exactly what I was thinking, my macro isn't perfect, there are a lot of opportunities to fine tune this, and I'm still beating people much better than I with it. Have fun and let me know how it goes for you.
@Shlowpoke + Show Spoiler +On November 29 2010 12:57 Shlowpoke wrote:Watched all the replays. I learned that Zealot + Void Rays crushes pure Stalkers without good micro/blink. xD It's a bit counter-intuitive, but it seems that you actually need Zealots to delay their Zealots long enough for your Stalkers to focus down some Void Rays. Guardian shield will also reduce Void Ray damage a lot. So basically a normal unit composition does well against it, as long as you focus fire correctly. Look at that match on Metalopolis where your opponent 4-Gated and contained you at the ramp, then didn't make a second wave and just expanded. There was basically nothing you could do to prevent that. The reason you won that game was because of poor micro on your opponent's part and his terrible (yet hilarious) decision to make a Void Ray to combat your 4+ Void Rays. It looks strong against Robo builds, but Stargate builds having an advantage against Robo builds is nothing new. The reason Stargate openers aren't used much at a high level is because of well-executed 3-Gate Blink or 1 Gas 4-Gate All-ins. Here's a good 1 Gas 4-Gate All-in: ReplayIt hits at around 5:50 with 2 Zealots and 5 Stalkers. At this point in your replays, you had about 3 gateway units (1 Sentry) and your Void Ray was just starting. I think you forget the power of good ff's. I've had a lot of opponents try all inning me, feel free to give it a go if you'd like to test yours, my tag is SolidVauld.254
@BenKen + Show Spoiler +On November 29 2010 16:58 BenKen wrote: I watched all of the replays, definitely gonna try this out next time in PvP. Seemed like with perfect macro you could have gotten a lot more zealots in most of the games too. I don't mean that as an insult, if anything that speaks to the viability of the build, as someone else said in the thread. Yeah I'd like to see how people could improve it to do just that, my macro isn't perfect, especially since I tend to fall into the trap of watching battles too much.
@slained + Show Spoiler +On November 29 2010 17:26 slained wrote: Hey Vauld can I try playing you a few games. I'm like 2400 protoss though.
slained.778, your id?
edit: watched a couple of your reps, I think your opponents especially the one with blink build didn't really micro properly against VRs, in his case he always blinked away instead of towards and kite the VRs while moving away from the zealots. I don't think you should ever win against a proper blink build Definitely, it's SolidVauld.254. I have had people try blinking towards instead of away, it usually turns out to be worse for them, as they get attacked by all of the zealots at that point, but they were lower on the ladder. I'm usually on in the evenings, in particular I'll probably be on next Tuesday night after the Daily.
@darmousseh + Show Spoiler +On November 29 2010 18:57 darmousseh wrote: I actually don't think the void rays are what are winning this build, rather it is the heavy zealot force or the combination zealot/void ray that is winning. The void rays themselves are not amazing cost for cost against stalkers, but zealots in range are and what is happening is that the opponent has to choose kill the zealots and die to fully charged void rays or focus fire void rays while getting raped by zealots. In a normal stalker/sentry/zealot army, if these engage you want to kill the zealots first since stalkers aren't that great of dps if left alone, but because void rays are actually a threat when left alone, it entices the opponent to focus the void rays first which make their stalkers mince meat for the zealots. Once you have enough void rays (4-5) they scale significantly faster than stalkers because of their charge ability and ability to stack.
Now the question is how to transition. I like the idea of making 2 zealots, 4 sentries, 2 void rays and then expanding. After that maybe transitioning into charge and void ray speed, and shield upgrade (to benefit the zealots and void rays). Once you can get a third base then start getting stalkers and carriers? I need to see a pro use this build first. Yeah I find that although the Void Rays do work well, it is the zealots that make it truly powerful, especially if I get good ff's off. The Voids force them into heavy stalkers as well as make the Stalkers have to try targeting the Voids and get beat by the zealot/Void combo, or try to dance around taking out zealots and I build up a critical mass of Voids. Also Stalkers are so expensive if they haven't already expo'd they can't really do it if I keep pressure on without dying. I usually transition into Voidray speed and +air weapons and I grab charge later on. With speed even Blink stalkers cannot run away, and I don't know any protoss composition that can take this in high numbers.
@GoldenH + Show Spoiler +On November 30 2010 01:44 GoldenH wrote: I was working on a strategy similar to this before 1.1.2 came out. But I found that since then it loses very hard to stalker micro or phoenix/colossus, because you cannot charge the Voids on your buildings, and they do too little damage to un-armored units. I estimate this build will work up until the 2400 diamond range. This wouldn't have worked pre 1.1.2, after 1.1.2 uncharged voids do twice as much dps as before. They have about twice the dps of Stalkers vs armored, and combined with zealots I haven't lost to any build yet, but I would also like to see how it handles when done by pros (or high diamonds). Also, Phoenix Collosus should never be able to be reached by them if you're doing this build right.
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On November 30 2010 03:48 ScythedBlade wrote: The build loses to stalkers. Tried it. It won't work well
Did you watch ANY of the replays? Every replay except the 2 gate robo is pure Stalker compositions I'm facing. If you're confident you're doing the build right post the reps so I can see what happened and we can see what the problem is.
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Can you post replays of you beating these 2200 protoss players?
Honestly, this build looks like it won't work. Voidray is gas expensive, and so are forcefields. Stalkers beat voidrays per cost in fights, and colossus can break forcefields and rape zealots. I see Stalker/sentry/zealot/colossus beating this with relative ease.
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On November 30 2010 04:08 Vauld wrote:@GoldenH + Show Spoiler +On November 30 2010 01:44 GoldenH wrote: I was working on a strategy similar to this before 1.1.2 came out. But I found that since then it loses very hard to stalker micro or phoenix/colossus, because you cannot charge the Voids on your buildings, and they do too little damage to un-armored units. I estimate this build will work up until the 2400 diamond range. This wouldn't have worked pre 1.1.2, after 1.1.2 uncharged voids do twice as much dps as before. They have about twice the dps of Stalkers vs armored, and combined with zealots I haven't lost to any build yet, but I would also like to see how it handles when done by pros (or high diamonds). Also, Phoenix Collosus should never be able to be reached by them if you're doing this build right.
Nah, actually it was reasonable pre-1.1.2, charging was not a problem if you had good scouting and the dps has decreased so that you cannot beat pure stalker with VR+zealot any longer. Throw in some phoenix to lift retreating stalkers and you're good. Previously keeping the VRs charged was a challenge but if you couldn't move out you could safely transition and expand. Now you just die.
On November 30 2010 04:10 Vauld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 03:48 ScythedBlade wrote: The build loses to stalkers. Tried it. It won't work well Did you watch ANY of the replays? Every replay except the 2 gate robo is pure Stalker compositions I'm facing. If you're confident you're doing the build right post the reps so I can see what happened and we can see what the problem is.
Your opponents have terrible micro, letting zealots run over their stalkers.. so sad. In the blink stalker replay he actually loses 20 stalkers before he starts to do any micro at all (and doing terribly), and there was just no coming back from that.
Stick with the build if you want some wins while you learn mid/lategame, but it'll be a dead end, you'll find that there is nothing you can do to improve this build, and you will have to abandon it once you consistently fight good opponents.
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On November 30 2010 04:21 Kiarip wrote: Can you post replays of you beating these 2200 protoss players?
Honestly, this build looks like it won't work. Voidray is gas expensive, and so are forcefields. Stalkers beat voidrays per cost in fights, and colossus can break forcefields and rape zealots. I see Stalker/sentry/zealot/colossus beating this with relative ease. The vs Blink Stalker rep is against a 2200 Diamond The vs Early Stalker into 4 gate Stalker rep is against a 1700 Diamond The vs 4 Gate into Expo rep is against a 1800 Diamond
Collosus can't ever get out against this build, if they rush straight to them they'll straight up die as their Stalker count is so low. Once I start my first push they have to pump constant Stalkers to have a chance at surviving, so the Collosus will never get out, especially in numbers. 2 or 3 gate robo is a build order loss against this. In regards to the gas cost, I get one sentry really early and another somewhere around when my second void is building, the voids even with one chrono per void constant production gives you excess gas with three miners per geyser, so I can add more later, although once I expo which I do while pushing I have gas to play with, even with two stargates constant production with chronos.
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LOL a 2200 diamond really?
This really shows how much the points have inflated since release.
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On November 30 2010 04:32 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:08 Vauld wrote:@GoldenH + Show Spoiler +On November 30 2010 01:44 GoldenH wrote: I was working on a strategy similar to this before 1.1.2 came out. But I found that since then it loses very hard to stalker micro or phoenix/colossus, because you cannot charge the Voids on your buildings, and they do too little damage to un-armored units. I estimate this build will work up until the 2400 diamond range. This wouldn't have worked pre 1.1.2, after 1.1.2 uncharged voids do twice as much dps as before. They have about twice the dps of Stalkers vs armored, and combined with zealots I haven't lost to any build yet, but I would also like to see how it handles when done by pros (or high diamonds). Also, Phoenix Collosus should never be able to be reached by them if you're doing this build right. Nah, actually it was reasonable pre-1.1.2, charging was not a problem if you had good scouting and the dps has decreased so that you cannot beat pure stalker with VR+zealot any longer. Throw in some phoenix to lift retreating stalkers and you're good. Previously keeping the VRs charged was a challenge but if you couldn't move out you could safely transition and expand. Now you just die. Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:10 Vauld wrote:On November 30 2010 03:48 ScythedBlade wrote: The build loses to stalkers. Tried it. It won't work well Did you watch ANY of the replays? Every replay except the 2 gate robo is pure Stalker compositions I'm facing. If you're confident you're doing the build right post the reps so I can see what happened and we can see what the problem is. Your opponents have terrible micro, letting zealots run over their stalkers.. so sad. In the blink stalker replay he actually loses 20 stalkers before he starts to do any micro at all (and doing terribly), and there was just no coming back from that. Stick with the build if you want some wins while you learn mid/lategame, but it'll be a dead end, you'll find that there is nothing you can do to improve this build, and you will have to abandon it once you consistently fight good opponents.
In my experience they either let the Zealots or the Voids run over their Stalkers, there is no other option. I've always thought Stalkers were a bit weak, although after the buff that made them 10+4 instead of 8+6 they're not as bad, their main advantage is movement speed. Pure Zealot Sentry does quite decently against Stalker as is with good ff's, the Voids just make it much stronger and allow it to do great against any Protoss composition (Against T and Z is a different story...) If you want to try facing my 950 pt Diamond self to show me how your Stalker micro will do against it feel free to, I'm SolidVauld.254. Keep in mind that as it is my micro and macro leave alot more to be desired than my opponent's in most of the reps I posted. Next time I go online and get some games in I'll try to post some more reps, although I can only face really high opponents in Customs.
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i really cant see that winning vs either collossus stalker or pure blinkstalkers, your zealots wont hit them, and voidrays are bad enough to lose to stalkers. cant watch the reps though atm
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On November 30 2010 04:51 ensis wrote: i really cant see that winning vs either collossus stalker or pure blinkstalkers, your zealots wont hit them, and voidrays are bad enough to lose to stalkers. cant watch the reps though atm
Check out the reps and test it out yourself, it works quite well. Collosus never get out without a straight rush to them, and that dies to your first push. Pure blinkers is the build that is my biggest worry, you'd think it would kill it but I've run into it a few times and always prevailed. The key is keeping the zealots and voids together, the voids can always shoot the stalkers if the stalkers can shoot them, and they do decently against stalkers (especially since the voids stack), and good zealot positioning makes the stalkers melt for attempting to hit the voids (good ff's as well, esp. pre blink).
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On November 30 2010 04:49 Vauld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:32 GoldenH wrote:On November 30 2010 04:08 Vauld wrote:@GoldenH + Show Spoiler +On November 30 2010 01:44 GoldenH wrote: I was working on a strategy similar to this before 1.1.2 came out. But I found that since then it loses very hard to stalker micro or phoenix/colossus, because you cannot charge the Voids on your buildings, and they do too little damage to un-armored units. I estimate this build will work up until the 2400 diamond range. This wouldn't have worked pre 1.1.2, after 1.1.2 uncharged voids do twice as much dps as before. They have about twice the dps of Stalkers vs armored, and combined with zealots I haven't lost to any build yet, but I would also like to see how it handles when done by pros (or high diamonds). Also, Phoenix Collosus should never be able to be reached by them if you're doing this build right. Nah, actually it was reasonable pre-1.1.2, charging was not a problem if you had good scouting and the dps has decreased so that you cannot beat pure stalker with VR+zealot any longer. Throw in some phoenix to lift retreating stalkers and you're good. Previously keeping the VRs charged was a challenge but if you couldn't move out you could safely transition and expand. Now you just die. On November 30 2010 04:10 Vauld wrote:On November 30 2010 03:48 ScythedBlade wrote: The build loses to stalkers. Tried it. It won't work well Did you watch ANY of the replays? Every replay except the 2 gate robo is pure Stalker compositions I'm facing. If you're confident you're doing the build right post the reps so I can see what happened and we can see what the problem is. Your opponents have terrible micro, letting zealots run over their stalkers.. so sad. In the blink stalker replay he actually loses 20 stalkers before he starts to do any micro at all (and doing terribly), and there was just no coming back from that. Stick with the build if you want some wins while you learn mid/lategame, but it'll be a dead end, you'll find that there is nothing you can do to improve this build, and you will have to abandon it once you consistently fight good opponents. In my experience they either let the Zealots or the Voids run over their Stalkers, there is no other option. I've always thought Stalkers were a bit weak, although after the buff that made them 10+4 instead of 8+6 they're not as bad, their main advantage is movement speed. Pure Zealot Sentry does quite decently against Stalker as is with good ff's, the Voids just make it much stronger and allow it to do great against any Protoss composition (Against T and Z is a different story...) If you want to try facing my 950 pt Diamond self to show me how your Stalker micro will do against it feel free to, I'm SolidVauld.254. Keep in mind that as it is my micro and macro leave alot more to be desired than my opponent's in most of the reps I posted. Next time I go online and get some games in I'll try to post some more reps, although I can only face really high opponents in Customs.
are you really only 950 pts?
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I watched the blink stalker replay, the first you posted.
I think this whole build you've shown is really just a testament to how the void rays should be used post 1.1.2. Previously void rays were valuable only when they were fully charged, thus making them more like surgical strike craft; they were good for rushes and early game, and good late game to just throw a couple into an enemy base during a big battle. Now however, they are much better off as a part of an army composition since they have much more burst damage due to the level one stage buff.
I saw a recent game in GSL 3 where that one guinea pig player had a collosus void ray build (we jokingly in the re-stream called it the "laser build") that rolled over zerg players.
I'm saying that I think the void ray should now be used more as a part of an army composition rather than it's previous lone base-wrecking style of use. I think the success of your early stargate is due to the fact that the void rays have pretty great burst damage, and can't be targeted by zealots. Also, in order for ground units to engage your void rays, if you have zealots underneath then your army's damage output will be really strong vs early game ground compositions; in order for stalkers to engage the voids they risk running into zealots.
Since voidrays are so vespene intensive I suggest getting a forge and a cannon immediately after expoing for insurance. This cannon is used in PvP by Day9 and Adelscott ( http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4099940/ ). The cannon shouldn't be much an issue since you'll have excess minerals.
I would say that it looks like you're going to really need some zealots and a couple stalkers and a sentry, so you'll definitely always want 2 gates maybe 3 before you expand.
A lot of people have been retorting in that in PvP proper blink micro would wreck this, but honestly proper micro of the zealots and the void rays should do excellent as well. Worst case scenario, stalkers blink directly under your void rays, but, you should have quite a few zealots under there and the stalker army should take at least as much damage as it deals.
I'm hoping a realization that void rays are great within an army (relative to pre-1.1.2) will help develop more methods of gaining an economic advantage against a 4 gate without much threat of dieing to an early 4 gate push. You must be doing something right if you are beating players over double your current points.
Edit: Also, I think it would be good to incorporate charge zlots once your expo is decently saturated. It may also be easy to just go carrier once your third is up since you already should have stargates and void rays, and zealots to compliment them.
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Stalker micro really isn't my strong point, but I can at least demonstrate what has been done to me, I'll throw you an invite sometime tonight.
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On November 30 2010 05:01 ensis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:49 Vauld wrote:On November 30 2010 04:32 GoldenH wrote:On November 30 2010 04:08 Vauld wrote:@GoldenH + Show Spoiler +On November 30 2010 01:44 GoldenH wrote: I was working on a strategy similar to this before 1.1.2 came out. But I found that since then it loses very hard to stalker micro or phoenix/colossus, because you cannot charge the Voids on your buildings, and they do too little damage to un-armored units. I estimate this build will work up until the 2400 diamond range. This wouldn't have worked pre 1.1.2, after 1.1.2 uncharged voids do twice as much dps as before. They have about twice the dps of Stalkers vs armored, and combined with zealots I haven't lost to any build yet, but I would also like to see how it handles when done by pros (or high diamonds). Also, Phoenix Collosus should never be able to be reached by them if you're doing this build right. Nah, actually it was reasonable pre-1.1.2, charging was not a problem if you had good scouting and the dps has decreased so that you cannot beat pure stalker with VR+zealot any longer. Throw in some phoenix to lift retreating stalkers and you're good. Previously keeping the VRs charged was a challenge but if you couldn't move out you could safely transition and expand. Now you just die. On November 30 2010 04:10 Vauld wrote:On November 30 2010 03:48 ScythedBlade wrote: The build loses to stalkers. Tried it. It won't work well Did you watch ANY of the replays? Every replay except the 2 gate robo is pure Stalker compositions I'm facing. If you're confident you're doing the build right post the reps so I can see what happened and we can see what the problem is. Your opponents have terrible micro, letting zealots run over their stalkers.. so sad. In the blink stalker replay he actually loses 20 stalkers before he starts to do any micro at all (and doing terribly), and there was just no coming back from that. Stick with the build if you want some wins while you learn mid/lategame, but it'll be a dead end, you'll find that there is nothing you can do to improve this build, and you will have to abandon it once you consistently fight good opponents. In my experience they either let the Zealots or the Voids run over their Stalkers, there is no other option. I've always thought Stalkers were a bit weak, although after the buff that made them 10+4 instead of 8+6 they're not as bad, their main advantage is movement speed. Pure Zealot Sentry does quite decently against Stalker as is with good ff's, the Voids just make it much stronger and allow it to do great against any Protoss composition (Against T and Z is a different story...) If you want to try facing my 950 pt Diamond self to show me how your Stalker micro will do against it feel free to, I'm SolidVauld.254. Keep in mind that as it is my micro and macro leave alot more to be desired than my opponent's in most of the reps I posted. Next time I go online and get some games in I'll try to post some more reps, although I can only face really high opponents in Customs. are you really only 950 pts? Yeah, I have over 1200 Bonus Pool, I don't play 1v1 ladder that much right now with Uni (I'm only 40-19). Most of the time I end up playing 2v2's with friends or Custom Games, both for warm ups and a lot vs my friends. Also I was playing in Beta since about patch 5, and I was in the top division every reset, I don't mass game enough though.
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