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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
Proper Scouting for Protoss: Part 1
Introduction:
So many times, people post, wanting to know what they did wrong. "How do I improve?" "What mistake(s) did I make?" "What could I have done better?" Resulting, "this shit is IMBA!!" In most of the times, people can look into their own replays and find 1 or 2 major fault that made them lose the game. However, it's one thing to know your mistake(s), but a whole new matter connecting and relating that very mistake and implementing into next game.
To put it in a simple matter, people KNOW the answer when they can see the whole picture, but they are CLUELESS until the whole picture is revealed and completed or they’re back in the same shoes again. And again... And again... And yes, again...
Everyone knows: Scouting is crucial. It allows you to see the picture before it’s completed. It allows you to prepare and adapt. What makes pro-gamer a pro-gamer is their ability to (*cough* outplay you in every way possible) draw information out of the smallest details.
They really do know all the answers to every given situation.
To prevent your mistake from happening over and over, you can repetitiously play the game over and over until you finally get the light bulb over your head or you can break down the game and look for the answers.
To start off, do you know what you're scouting for? Let me emphasize, do you REALLY know what you're scouting for? People will tell you to scout after 9th pylon, but what pros will see and what you will see are probably very different. To say it bluntly, if pro's scouting, it's an investment; but if you're scouting, you’re wasting a probe.
+ Show Spoiler +"The act of scouting occurs before the game even begins by researching possible enemy builds. Doing this research will increase the effectiveness of scouting and improve your ability to counter the enemy. Researching the possible builds of your enemy will not only show you what he has at the moment of scouting, but what he will have five minutes from then.
Look in the Strategy section of Liquipedia for each of the three races (Terran Strategy, Protoss Strategy, Zerg Strategy) and read all of the major builds the enemy is likely to perform against you. Try not only to understand the basic build order but also the unit composition and the idea behind the build itself. In most builds, you will want to scout your opponent at around 10 - 15 consumed supply - it's during this time the enemy should have made his first tech choice. Determine beforehand what the enemy should have at this point for each build. Doing so will help you understand weaknesses and possible alterations to standard build orders.
Go to GameReplays.org and check out the replays. The top replays with the highest amount of downloads likely have professional players that will play the builds located in the strategy section. Download 5 - 10 replays which contain your main race (3 from each of your possible matchups is best). Notice the build orders each player uses. Watch how the professionals execute their build order and timings against the opponent. Actively participate in watching the replay. At every decision that the professional makes ask "Why would he do that?" In every attack, noticing the flaw each player makes is twice as important as noticing the player's success. You do learn something from success, but you will always learn much more by failure." - liquipedia
Liquipedia tells us to scout, and yes, we will for the Aiur. This thread is written so that the readers can get the most out of their scouting ability to help Protoss of their gameplay.
This discussion/thread/guide will be !!!VERY BUILD SPECIFIC AND TIME SPECIFIC!!!. (There will be margin of error. Playing trend will change over time, as well as the fact that new playstyles are coming out everyday for the game is young)
Self Introduction:
+ Show Spoiler +Don't mind me. But if you must... + Show Spoiler +NrGGuN, 3100~ NA, Protoss User. I don't pretend to know everything. This is the reason why this thread is Discussion thread. Help us by contributing your smallest detail that separates me and you. Also I tried to use only Korean progamers as the reference because their build orders are extremely refined and exact.
Scouting Time: 9th Probe:
Purpose: To see the opening of your opponent's build.
Priority assignment: Is he cheesing?
-VS Terran: Barracks within his base? 2 Barracks? No orbital command? [ASSUMPTION] Is 2nd barrack being made outside his base? -VS Zerg: Early Pool (6 or later)? Early gas? Gas after 100? [ASSUMPTION] Roach all in, or speed & bling bust -VS Toss: Gateways within his base? Forge first? 11 Gateway? [ASSUMPTION] Korean 4 wg
Secondary assignment: What is his build order?
-VS Terran: Does he wall? Does he not wall? If he does wall, [ASSUMPTION] he's putting more focus defending with less investment (eg. bunker) so higher chance of fast expansion (or tightly timed attack) or he just has concern for dark templar rush. If he doesn't wall, [ASSUMPTION] he's putting more focus defending vs VoidRay, 3WG attack.
No Gas? There’s a GOOD chance that Terran will fast expand.
Gas, but Terran does not add any of Barracks’ add-on. [ASSUMPTION] See Reactor [ASSUMPTION] below, similar pathway. However, confirm it by poking in again at 4:20 mark. If you see 4 marines, that will imply that he didn’t add Tech-lab for there’s no way to get 4 marines out of 1 Barracks in that time period. 4 Marines confirm the [ASSUMPTION] for Reactor.
Add-on?
If he chooses Reactor, [ASSUMPTION] Marines do not cost gas. So you have to think to yourself. Why would he need to invest in gas if he's only going to make marines? Expect some kind of "Gas-heavy-unit" timing attack. Main Builds to look out for: (These builds work against Toss with closer rushing distance; faster you adapt, the better) Polt Timing Attack (Attack can start as early, but not limited to, as 8:25) Thor Auto-Repair Marines Attack (Attack can start as early, but not limited to, as 7:00)
If he chooses Tech Lab, [ASSUMPTION] This is by far the most standard Terran build order. Tech Lab can break down into 3 main BO’s (but not limited to). 1) 1 Barracks Fast Expansion. There are a lot of variations to this build. But the number you need to remember is 6:30. At this time, FE will have orbital command and land at its resource mineral line. (There is a SLIGHT variation in time with different build order, but MOST FE build order finishes exactly at 6:30). It you have not scouted already with an observer, this is the time you HAVE to confirm before making your next decision.
There are variations of 1 Barracks fast expansion. There can be Reaper Fast Expansion or Marauder Fast Expansion. Reaper Fast Expansion keeps toss is base (offensive approach) while expanding with Marauder first allows more safety (defensive approach). Seeing Reaper as their first unit after the add-on: For myself, I always think this is very good instigator that Terran will fast expand. First, it’s very low on mineral and very heavy on gas. Low mineral, so it’s great for Terran to stock up 400 to throw down command center, but high enough gas for toss to assume that they’re spending too much gas too early for any other tech units. (Especially this early)
Seeing Marauder as their first unit after the add-on: This should trigger an alarm for toss player. Marauders are the backbones of Terran army composition. Seeing them as first unit should buzz your radar. Is he going 2 Barracks pressure expansion? Or is he going 3 Barracks All-in? This is where you have to have “subtlety scouting” abilities to gain information out of nothing.
Your probe/army need to constantly scout or provoke his army. You must see if Marauder will have concussive shell upgraded which is further instigation that pressure is due to come. However, if you do not see concussive shell upgrade (after 1-2 minutes later after the Tech lab [concussive research only takes 60 seconds], you are safe to assume the rush will be delayed and expansion will go up.
2) 2 Barracks Pressure Expansion. Follow suit as you would after you see initial Marauder. However, in this case, you have to count the number of Marauders and Marines. This pressure attack usually comes out at early as 6:30. (Best time to poke in and scout is 5:00~ mark)
3) 3 Barracks All-In. Follow suit as you would scout 2 Barracks Pressure Expansion, however, you’ll see substantial difference in army number.
Also in trend,
4) 2 Barracks Ghost Time Push. This push is continuation of 2 Barracks, however with Ghost tech. This attack begins exactly at 7:30 (maximized build) This attack will consist of somewhere in the lines of 4 Marauders, 9 Marines, and 1 or 2 Ghosts. If you poke in @ 5:00 mark and think he’s going 2 Barracks and does not attack 6:30 or so. Expect Ghost in the mix at 7:30 mark.
Scouting is only good as you can get information out of it. Also scouting is most efficient if you understand your opponents build and ALSO your build. You need to study your build order, and opponents build order to utilize your scouting to the fullest.
As I am trying to get better as well, if there is something very specific or smallest detail that can be editted/scouted, please do not hesitate to add. But, please be very specific and detailed.
Hopefully I'll have time to write a pvz scouting method and since PvZ is my favourite and my best, I have lots to say.
Thanks for reading this longgggggggg block of text!!!!!
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Hey, this is actually very helpful to my PvT game. Thanks a lot man!
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Thanks for this, PvT is definitely the toughest for me to predict with all of the different addons and building and whatnot.
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Nice post ben, definitely shows you've been working hard!
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Russian Federation266 Posts
Hello.
Gas, but Terran does not add any of Barracks’ add-on. [ASSUMPTION] See Reactor [ASSUMPTION] below, similar pathway. However, confirm it by poking in again at 4:20 mark. If you see 4 marines, that will imply that he didn’t add any add-on for there’s no way to get 4 marines out of 1 Barracks in that time period. 4 Marines confirm the [ASSUMPTION] for Reactor.
Making 4 marines without reactor takes the same time as making a reactor + 4 marines.
Never mind that. Unless he made a marine befre reactor you can just see the reactor with your probe. And if he goes marine first -> reactor he will have less marines then no reactor untill the number becomes 5 vs 6.
This was originaly a mad post about the guide bieng full of shit, untill I was pointed out that ths is not supposed to be a guide. But please, since it is not a guide, make it look like it isn't one not just with a letter in the topic name.
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On January 03 2011 15:54 Tsabo wrote:Hello. Show nested quote +Gas, but Terran does not add any of Barracks’ add-on. [ASSUMPTION] See Reactor [ASSUMPTION] below, similar pathway. However, confirm it by poking in again at 4:20 mark. If you see 4 marines, that will imply that he didn’t add any add-on for there’s no way to get 4 marines out of 1 Barracks in that time period. 4 Marines confirm the [ASSUMPTION] for Reactor.
Yo do realise that making 4 marines without reactor takes the same time as making a reactor + 4 marines? Never mind that. Do you realise that unless he made a marine befre reactor you can just see the reactor with your probe? And if he goes marine first -> reactor he will have less marines then no reactor untill the number becomes 5 vs 6? Seriosly you want to write a guide write a propper one, not some random shit taken from the top of your head overnight.
Well, it is a discussion not a guide so CHILL DUDE
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 03 2011 15:59 Uraotoko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 15:54 Tsabo wrote:Hello. Gas, but Terran does not add any of Barracks’ add-on. [ASSUMPTION] See Reactor [ASSUMPTION] below, similar pathway. However, confirm it by poking in again at 4:20 mark. If you see 4 marines, that will imply that he didn’t add any add-on for there’s no way to get 4 marines out of 1 Barracks in that time period. 4 Marines confirm the [ASSUMPTION] for Reactor.
Yo do realise that making 4 marines without reactor takes the same time as making a reactor + 4 marines? Never mind that. Do you realise that unless he made a marine befre reactor you can just see the reactor with your probe? And if he goes marine first -> reactor he will have less marines then no reactor untill the number becomes 5 vs 6? Seriosly you want to write a guide write a propper one, not some random shit taken from the top of your head overnight. Well, it is a discussion not a guide so CHILL DUDE
Ah I see. My bad =)
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Pretty sure conc shells takes 60 seconds -.- Stim takes 140 seconds.
Also, if he hides a barracks at the back of his base he can get 5-6 marines out by your suggested time. Then generally he could move out with 5-8 marines and Kite your initial units + micro hurt units away from stalkers for easy kills.
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
On January 03 2011 15:54 Tsabo wrote:Hello. Show nested quote +Gas, but Terran does not add any of Barracks’ add-on. [ASSUMPTION] See Reactor [ASSUMPTION] below, similar pathway. However, confirm it by poking in again at 4:20 mark. If you see 4 marines, that will imply that he didn’t add any add-on for there’s no way to get 4 marines out of 1 Barracks in that time period. 4 Marines confirm the [ASSUMPTION] for Reactor.
Making 4 marines without reactor takes the same time as making a reactor + 4 marines. Never mind that. Unless he made a marine befre reactor you can just see the reactor with your probe. And if he goes marine first -> reactor he will have less marines then no reactor untill the number becomes 5 vs 6. This was originaly a mad post about the guide bieng full of shit, untill I was pointed out that ths is not supposed to be a guide. But please, since it is not a guide, make it look like it isn't one not just with a letter in the topic name.
On January 03 2011 16:10 Kornholi0 wrote: Pretty sure conc shells takes 60 seconds -.- Stim takes 140 seconds.
Also, if he hides a barracks at the back of his base he can get 5-6 marines out by your suggested time. Then generally he could move out with 5-8 marines and Kite your initial units + micro hurt units away from stalkers for easy kills.
First things first, I apologize. I did not thoroughly investigate.
Tsabo, no matter if he has 4 marines from sole Barracks or Reactor added Barracks. It will still imply the same thing.
However, please note that if terran is going for a tech route whether it be banshee/marines, thor rush, or polt attack. It is wise for terran to pump 4 marines out of non-added barrack to start of with 50gas in his next tech building such as factory instead of investing its first 50 gas to reactor. Seeing the reactor add-on first only further proves that terran has higher chance of going tech units. In the end, you're basically still trying to scout same information.
Kornholi0, i have no excuse there. That was just pure lack of effort. I thought I did correct calculation but ended up being horribly wrong (lol... math fail). To my defense, I was tired of writing by that time, and I skimmed through several replays and thought I had it correct. But I would still look for those timing, to see whether concussive shells are finished or not. You can use your probe to see if it slows down if you're not positive. Being cautious can never go wrong.
And thank you guys for pointing out the false information. I have editted and look forward to having more detailed discussion! Thanks!
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Thanks for this and could use a lot on the scouting issue. Like I have a firm grasp on what to look for but I usually scout 12 just b/c I want that extra early boost in income and I'm thinking about transitioning into scouting at 9.
Also I would love to see another one of these for PvZ as PvZ is my worst MU at the moment
1700~ Diamond Protoss
But thanks for the insight; doesn't hurt to see how people perceive things.
Not sure if you should add the obvious like early double gas = potential banshee harass and when you should scout to see if they are going banshees (double starport or just one)
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This is a good thread. Thank you. I usually feel iffy until I can scout with an observer or hallucinated phoenix against any race. Later methods of scouting definitely are important into the mid game and late game.
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personally as a lower level player myself I've been thinking that mabye the 9 probe is a waste unless you have the micro/multitask to harass with it. I was thinking about going back to scouting with my gateway/forge probe.
as the op said "To say it bluntly, if pro's scouting, it's an investment; but if you're scouting, you’re wasting a probe".
I was actually thinking of seeking advice and this seemed like as good of a place as any. I've been trying to improve my scouting, I started sending my 9 probe against terran to be safe from the wall in, and I've been using the multi-tasking mini game to try to improve my control, but I just feel like I'm not getting enough info that earily to justify the econ loss, unless I'm able to orange up some scv's ala HuK. any advice would be appreciated.
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On January 07 2011 04:21 Slusher wrote: personally as a lower level player myself I've been thinking that mabye the 9 probe is a waste unless you have the micro/multitask to harass with it. I was thinking about going back to scouting with my gateway/forge probe.
as the op said "To say it bluntly, if pro's scouting, it's an investment; but if you're scouting, you’re wasting a probe".
I was actually thinking of seeking advice and this seemed like as good of a place as any. I've been trying to improve my scouting, I started sending my 9 probe against terran to be safe from the wall in, and I've been using the multi-tasking mini game to try to improve my control, but I just feel like I'm not getting enough info that earily to justify the econ loss, unless I'm able to orange up some scv's ala HuK. any advice would be appreciated.
Just keep trying bro, eventually you'll get the multi-tasking down. Try setting 1-2 waypoints before your money reaches the point where you have to throw down stuff, and throw it down, and then focus right back onto your probe. I recommend the Daily with the DjWheat live-coaching, it goes for all races.
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Excellent post, it's great to have such a specific list of what to look for.
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scouting with your first 2 units zealot/stalker vs terran can be deadly if not informative.. if he makes block you hit the supply a couple times, cash a marine with your stalker if you can then fall back if you see marauder insta fall back
white ra is my favorite protoss scout micro user. keep in mind that if you have your scouting probe in his base it may be 1 probe more he has mining, but if you keep making him pull 3 probes to try and attack you, he is missing out on income in that way. its hard to see a probe in your base killing your pylon/pool/scv builder without reacting. keep in mind vs terran if you attack a probe building a structure and the player falls that scv back with red health, you can still go try and pick it off in the mineral line.
all of this can be done early game without losing a unit, and causing your opponent some stress
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Hallucinate is one of THE best scouting methods available for protoss, it's an easy and quick way to check how many expansions enemy has, where they are, and what tech is he going for now that early game is over. You can also use it to quickly locate his missing main army. It's not meant to be overused tho: you do need the sentry energy for forcefields too.
But I like the idea of this thread!
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some people want to nit pick on the specific details of this thread but I think this is so great.
I'm a 2600 diamond player and I still feel like I'm in the bronze league that I started in. I have better control of the mechanics and better macro but I realized I had the scouting ability of a silver. I knew how to interpret toss well but only because it was a mirror race. Zerg seems a bit more straightforward than terran because they wall but I'd love to see a detailed flow chart on what to look for on the other two races as well.
This has given me a lot to think about and should contribute to my next level up in sc2! (I'd like to restate that I really look forward to seeing this for zerg and even toss)
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Hi, what about PvZ scouting?
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On July 31 2015 04:22 Cacique wrote: Hi, what about PvZ scouting? Hey man! You realize this thread is 4 years old right? Some of it is probably way outdated. As for scouting in PvZ, you can go about it in many different ways depending on how you chose to open. Are you doing sentry heavy into third, doing a 2 base, opening stargate or something else?
These are just my preferences:
Generally speaking you want to make sure the Z takes a third base between minute 4 and 5 or you should start worrying about 2 base play. It isn't a complete tell though. Try to find out where is army is and what it consists of, the easiest way is with a hallucinated phoenix or a probe.
At minute 8 is another good timing for a phoenix scout. This time the priorities should be: 1) Where is his army, is it in an offensive position or defensive. You do not want to be caught unprepared by a roach+ling timing. 2) How many gas geysers, 4 often means aggression, 6 often means tech. If you see 6 you can do a poke with MSC and army just to make him build units instead of drones. Against 4 gas or less, he'll have enough stuff out to deal with it easily 3) What tech is he going for, right now it is usually Hydras or Mutas. Swarmhosts aren't that common after the nerf. There are some ling+infestor stuff as well they try to trick you with sometimes.
From here on you keep scouting with hallucinated phoenixes or get an observer out. Your main concern is when/if he switches to hive and to keep track of where his army is as well as the timing of his forth base or if he staying on three. If he stays on three it is likely to be an aggressive play coming your way.
At around minute 12 you should start looking for Viper stuff that might be coming and try to time your templar archive. Usually the Viper timings hits between 13-14 minutes depending on map etc.
Protoss is a lot about being in the right position with the right composition and decent force fields.
But then again, if you are doing a 2 or 3 base blink+sentry style with a 11-12 minute move out scouting is mostly about the first two points.
Check your replays when you lose and see the timings of what the Zerg was doing. Make a note of it and start scouting for it in the games you play. That is how I came up with the timings above. I don't know if they are "correct", but it works fine for me.
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Good write up, nice job. But..Protoss live on timings, and this scouting, just kill all of this....And you don't need to scout that early... Why? Let's look at this in complex^ 1) You start the game with a plan.(should be your picked BO) 2) You scout 3) You See some units/buildngs/movement etc. and gather info 4) You decide, to change plan or not So you need to scout, depending on your build,and pick time of scouting, based on your willing to adapt. For example, i like to IMORTAL BUST in PvT, so i like to make my robo at 4:40, but if i get expansion late by 10 seconds, it will affect not only my robo placement, but count of probes when i attack at 9:00. So i don't scout before i put my expand, if i scout earlyer(after gateway for example) and see that there is no baracks on main of T, my adaptation will be to build zealot. But i can just order zealot before Cybernetics finished, and if i see no marines at my ramp, i cancel him, that's smart adaptation. But scouting after 9, will delay this zealot, so even if you see that you got proxyed, you won't be able to get zealot faster.
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