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I wanted to share with the community a coaching session I had with InControl today. It was a great session and I would highly recommend him as a coach. He is gracious enough to allow people to do this, so props to him.
http://livestre.am/yEJR
It's focused on my play vs zerg, hopefully it is helpful to you.
I also have the replays from the session if people are interested I can dig them out and post them somewhere as well.
Sorry for all the clicking noises during the replay, we were on skype and our mics were picking up everything apparently.
It's about 2 hours long so grab a snack and enjoy.
UPDATE 4 Now using MediaFire for hosting these, hope it works better for everyone.
New MediaFire Download Link! DOWNLOAD FULL VIDEO
New MediaFire Replay Pack Link ad Replay Zipped Folder DOWNLOAD Replay ZIP
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
thanks for this man really good stuff!!
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awesome thanks for posting this. I saw a PvZ lesson he did before and I agree he is a great coach. Ofc thanks to iNcontrol, you the man
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Sweet man. PvZ is BY FAR my worst MU. Thanks a ton
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yeah PvZ is my worst MU as well...only efficient build I know is the Forge FE into 5 gate timing attack with +1 attacks
other than that, I need to figure out another way to beat Zerg
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Played a bunch of games afterward and I definitely felt more confident with the build he is proposing. I still need a lot more practice with it, but it is solid for sure. Doesn't rely on anything overly gimmicky or risky.
Now I need to do 2 more sessions so I can get my Protoss and Terran matchups squared away a bit better.
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Thanks for posting this VOD, even though I'm in bronze i still think i learned a lot :}
Are you going to upload those two sessions ?
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=/ I hate having vods on livestream I'll see if I can d/l it for my itouch so I can do it when I wouldn't be productive anyways.
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I am watching now to see what I can learn. Thanks for sharing!
Also, I hope that you got the 'okay' from InControl before posting this. Please don't take my comments too harshly or create a whole sub debate on what I am about to say(I am not trying to thread crap or anything), but he might view his coaching and the tips he shared with you his IP. Rebroadcasting that without his permission is, at minimum, BM.
He seems a cool enough guy and all, so I'm sure it wouldn't even be a a big deal to him. But that is all the more reason to check with him first if you hadn't already!
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He has given a unilateral OK to post all his awesome epic lessons
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Thanks for sharing! It is always helpful for any level of player or future coach to watch stuff like this to see how it goes. It is a learning tool for both ends!
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Thank you so much for posting these! iNcontroL is so awesome. I've learned quite a bit from watching VODs of him coaching.
If you see this KEEP UP THE AWESOMENESS!
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Watched a little over an hour or so. Learned a ton. That Incontrol guy is pretty smart
What amazed me was in the game Incontrol played I thought he was done after those lings killed a ton of his probes lol. At least for me I would've panicked and said the game was done for me if I was in that situation, but Inc ends up Rofl stomping the guy.
Also make sure to post your next sessions!
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I'm a terran player and from watching/listening to this so far, I'm actually learning quite a bit! Definitely a lot of general points that help you lean towards more of a correct mindset.
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On January 06 2011 16:03 riboflavin wrote: I am watching now to see what I can learn. Thanks for sharing!
Also, I hope that you got the 'okay' from InControl before posting this. Please don't take my comments too harshly or create a whole sub debate on what I am about to say(I am not trying to thread crap or anything), but he might view his coaching and the tips he shared with you his IP. Rebroadcasting that without his permission is, at minimum, BM.
He seems a cool enough guy and all, so I'm sure it wouldn't even be a a big deal to him. But that is all the more reason to check with him first if you hadn't already!
Unless there was fine print before the lessons were done, I don't see why. If anything, it would be BM for the payer to not be allowed to rebroadcast it without a notice prior to paying. He did pay for it, after all.
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He bought the time.
Incontrol's coaching is great, watching now. Thanks for the post.
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Khaladas: Sorry about my accidental leave during that first game, my nephew was being super obnoxious and I accidentally hit Surrender instead of Pause =(
I'm watching now just to see his commentary as I got stomped, should be interesting!
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Nice coaching session, seems ubber useful xD edit: Did u lose a pvz after that?
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Awesome, love it when people share VODs of coaching from pros.
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Thanks for sharing this. I love how his new mic picks up the sound of his desk rumbling under the might of his yeti arms (this is love, not disrespect)!
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On January 06 2011 16:03 riboflavin wrote: I am watching now to see what I can learn. Thanks for sharing!
Also, I hope that you got the 'okay' from InControl before posting this. Please don't take my comments too harshly or create a whole sub debate on what I am about to say(I am not trying to thread crap or anything), but he might view his coaching and the tips he shared with you his IP. Rebroadcasting that without his permission is, at minimum, BM.
He seems a cool enough guy and all, so I'm sure it wouldn't even be a a big deal to him. But that is all the more reason to check with him first if you hadn't already!
Yes I definitely cleared it from him before posting, and he is totally ok with posting these. Even if people watch it there is no substitute for the individual advice he would give you in a one on one coaching session.
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On January 06 2011 16:39 aquanda wrote: Khaladas: Sorry about my accidental leave during that first game, my nephew was being super obnoxious and I accidentally hit Surrender instead of Pause =(
I'm watching now just to see his commentary as I got stomped, should be interesting!
No worries, thanks a ton for participating. I might hit you up for some rematches/discussion if you are up for it.
Nice coaching session, seems ubber useful xD edit: Did u lose a pvz after that?
Won 2 lost 2 in my next 4 zerg matches. Not bad considering my win rate was like 35% before and it's a somewhat new build order for me.
I need more practice more with what he preached during my session. In one of my losses for example the zerg started with 10 pool and I went ahead and walled off for safety but he just teched up to roaches and hit me at around 6-7 mins with a like 10ish roaches and some lings just as I was trying to expand. I almost held it but I didn't have any stalkers ( as per the sentry/zealot expand ) and my cannon wasn't up yet.
With some better scouting I could have just gone as normal and walled off at the last second if he committed to the zergling push in the beginning. Also could have seen he stayed on one base and was building roaches and prepared some stalkers to mix in with the sentries.
Just like any build you are planning to do you have to react to what they are doing, but it's important to also know what you don't have to react to. All of this takes practice.
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I appreciate when people do this. It's awesome for all the players who can benefit from the lesson, plus it's damn good advertising for iNcontroL's coaching.
I've seen a few of these recorded lessons and I have to say, if I ever desired a coach, iNcontroL would be the first guy I'd go to.
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This is great for a Protoss player and a Zerg learning the Protoss point of view. I have to go to school now but for sure I'll check this out. Thank you very much!
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Thx for sharing. InControl seemed like a natural coaching. Would've been great to see how he handled mutaling. I know he mentioned to stop colossi production and get more stalkers with blink but that is pretty vague and AFAIK the common "counter" to mutaling is to actually hit him with a 6-gate army ~9 mins and not go blink stalkers.
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On January 07 2011 01:55 Skyro wrote: Thx for sharing. InControl seemed like a natural coaching. Would've been great to see how he handled mutaling. I know he mentioned to stop colossi production and get more stalkers with blink but that is pretty vague and AFAIK the common "counter" to mutaling is to actually hit him with a 6-gate army ~9 mins and not go blink stalkers.
This only "counters" mutaling if you manage to scout it before making a robo. If you've committed to something other than a 6 gate +1 timing push by the time you see mutas, then you've missed the timing window and have to get blink.
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Very cool, thanks for doing this, and thanks to incontrol for letting you. Gonna check this out now.
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On January 07 2011 02:01 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 01:55 Skyro wrote: Thx for sharing. InControl seemed like a natural coaching. Would've been great to see how he handled mutaling. I know he mentioned to stop colossi production and get more stalkers with blink but that is pretty vague and AFAIK the common "counter" to mutaling is to actually hit him with a 6-gate army ~9 mins and not go blink stalkers. This only "counters" mutaling if you manage to scout it before making a robo. If you've committed to something other than a 6 gate +1 timing push by the time you see mutas, then you've missed the timing window and have to get blink.
I wasn't asking for advice how to deal with mutaling I deal with it fine. I was commenting on what InControl said in the VOD because he made it seem like he went blink stalkers with a more defensive playstyle which I do not think is optimal since playing defensive vs mutaling for a prolonged period of time seems like suicide.
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awsome for sharing this:D. incontrol is sicko micko
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On January 07 2011 02:25 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 02:01 iamke55 wrote:On January 07 2011 01:55 Skyro wrote: Thx for sharing. InControl seemed like a natural coaching. Would've been great to see how he handled mutaling. I know he mentioned to stop colossi production and get more stalkers with blink but that is pretty vague and AFAIK the common "counter" to mutaling is to actually hit him with a 6-gate army ~9 mins and not go blink stalkers. This only "counters" mutaling if you manage to scout it before making a robo. If you've committed to something other than a 6 gate +1 timing push by the time you see mutas, then you've missed the timing window and have to get blink. I wasn't asking for advice how to deal with mutaling I deal with it fine. I was commenting on what InControl said in the VOD because he made it seem like he went blink stalkers with a more defensive playstyle which I do not think is optimal since playing defensive vs mutaling for a prolonged period of time seems like suicide. I remember him saying to go more blink stalker heavy and not worry so much about colossi, but I don't remember him saying 'defensive'. I think he also agreed with me that dropping a couple cannons in your min lines is a good idea so you don't get pinned to your base. It probably just depends on how much zerg commits. I"d guess you would need to start throwing some phoenix into the mix if they really go whole hog for mutas.
Blink stalkers with some defensive cannons should allow you to continue to move around and be aggressive I would think.
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As a Protoss player, this is SO helpful to me!
Two words: Shark Mode
Definitely helps me as a low diamond league player
InControl is the man! <3 Thanks for posting, Khaladas!
On a sidenote, the only critique... he kept saying "dearth" when he meant "excess". Dearth means lack, but was using it to point out when there you had too many minerals or gas. I think this proves that his StarCraft play is pretty damn good, and I could only nitpick at his vocabulary lol.
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the clicking...sounded very distracting..how was it?
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On January 07 2011 05:21 Khaladas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 02:25 Skyro wrote:On January 07 2011 02:01 iamke55 wrote:On January 07 2011 01:55 Skyro wrote: Thx for sharing. InControl seemed like a natural coaching. Would've been great to see how he handled mutaling. I know he mentioned to stop colossi production and get more stalkers with blink but that is pretty vague and AFAIK the common "counter" to mutaling is to actually hit him with a 6-gate army ~9 mins and not go blink stalkers. This only "counters" mutaling if you manage to scout it before making a robo. If you've committed to something other than a 6 gate +1 timing push by the time you see mutas, then you've missed the timing window and have to get blink. I wasn't asking for advice how to deal with mutaling I deal with it fine. I was commenting on what InControl said in the VOD because he made it seem like he went blink stalkers with a more defensive playstyle which I do not think is optimal since playing defensive vs mutaling for a prolonged period of time seems like suicide. I remember him saying to go more blink stalker heavy and not worry so much about colossi, but I don't remember him saying 'defensive'. I think he also agreed with me that dropping a couple cannons in your min lines is a good idea so you don't get pinned to your base. It probably just depends on how much zerg commits. I"d guess you would need to start throwing some phoenix into the mix if they really go whole hog for mutas. Blink stalkers with some defensive cannons should allow you to continue to move around and be aggressive I would think.
No he didn't say defensive but he implied it since his playstyle is pretty defensive until he gets his deathball and his comment was something along the lines of "if he goes mutas just change your unit composition a bit" when AFAIK most people handle mutaling but simply crushing it with a timing push since it is nearly impossible to stop IMO once they start to hit that critical mass.
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On January 07 2011 05:35 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 05:21 Khaladas wrote:On January 07 2011 02:25 Skyro wrote:On January 07 2011 02:01 iamke55 wrote:On January 07 2011 01:55 Skyro wrote: Thx for sharing. InControl seemed like a natural coaching. Would've been great to see how he handled mutaling. I know he mentioned to stop colossi production and get more stalkers with blink but that is pretty vague and AFAIK the common "counter" to mutaling is to actually hit him with a 6-gate army ~9 mins and not go blink stalkers. This only "counters" mutaling if you manage to scout it before making a robo. If you've committed to something other than a 6 gate +1 timing push by the time you see mutas, then you've missed the timing window and have to get blink. I wasn't asking for advice how to deal with mutaling I deal with it fine. I was commenting on what InControl said in the VOD because he made it seem like he went blink stalkers with a more defensive playstyle which I do not think is optimal since playing defensive vs mutaling for a prolonged period of time seems like suicide. I remember him saying to go more blink stalker heavy and not worry so much about colossi, but I don't remember him saying 'defensive'. I think he also agreed with me that dropping a couple cannons in your min lines is a good idea so you don't get pinned to your base. It probably just depends on how much zerg commits. I"d guess you would need to start throwing some phoenix into the mix if they really go whole hog for mutas. Blink stalkers with some defensive cannons should allow you to continue to move around and be aggressive I would think. No he didn't say defensive but he implied it since his playstyle is pretty defensive until he gets his deathball and his comment was something along the lines of "if he goes mutas just change your unit composition a bit" when AFAIK most people handle mutaling but simply crushing it with a timing push since it is nearly impossible to stop IMO once they start to hit that critical mass.
If youre interested, a coaching session with incontrol about muta has actually been posted on tl by mrbitter(it's from a Zerg point of view). It's quite old but his style is still kinda the same. It's the first session, but they're all really interesting imo. http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MrBitter
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That was an awesome VOD, PvZ is probably one of my stronger matches, next to terran, with PvP being my worst by a long shot heh
But what INC was saying made so much more sence to me, i'm goign to start building more sentries off the bat and utalising his shark mode theory, I learned quite a bit from that lesson, i might just hire him myself heh
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This is great stuff, I watched another iNcontroL PvZ session a while back (forgot the student's name), and that helped my game tons. The videos of him against Ret and StrifeCro on Artosis' YouTube channel were really helpful as well.
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I have to say that it's funny to hear the mindless clicking and spamming in the beginning of the games
Really nice VOD btw, though honestly I'd still ask iNcontrol before posting this, I mean it IS a VOD of a paid lesson you're giving out for free. I'm sure a person like Idra would sue you or something if he realized you were putting up vods of his assloadexpensive coaching lessons. ;P Even though iNcontrol seems like a pretty chill guy, second only to nony, imo it is common courtesy.
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On January 07 2011 07:55 Geovu wrote:I have to say that it's funny to hear the mindless clicking and spamming in the beginning of the games Really nice VOD btw, though honestly I'd still ask iNcontrol before posting this, I mean it IS a VOD of a paid lesson you're giving out for free. I'm sure a person like Idra would sue you or something if he realized you were putting up vods of his assloadexpensive coaching lessons. ;P Even though iNcontrol seems like a pretty chill guy, second only to nony, imo it is common courtesy.
He did ask - iNc is fine with it. Khaladas says so on the second page.
And there's been a tonne of these vods of iNcontroL casting - he wouldn't suddenly take issue with it.
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Thank you so much for this. I learned a lot, even though I don't play Protoss that much. InC is really awesome!
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On January 06 2011 14:43 .kv wrote: yeah PvZ is my worst MU as well...only efficient build I know is the Forge FE into 5 gate timing attack with +1 attacks
other than that, I need to figure out another way to beat Zerg
Try adding another gateway and making at maximum 44 probes, 16 at each of your 2 bases' minerals and 12 at the obligatory 4 gas.
Try out 3 Warpgate Sentry Expanding.
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On January 06 2011 16:28 happyness wrote:Watched a little over an hour or so. Learned a ton. That Incontrol guy is pretty smart What amazed me was in the game Incontrol played I thought he was done after those lings killed a ton of his probes lol. At least for me I would've panicked and said the game was done for me if I was in that situation, but Inc ends up Rofl stomping the guy. Also make sure to post your next sessions!
lol, "That Incontrol guy" is one of the best players in the world man xP
BTW iNcontrol is a Protoss player hahahahaha
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On January 07 2011 13:01 Swien wrote:http://livestre.am/yEJRis this really the link? it's broken for me (I use google chrome) Yup I use Google Chrome, and it works just fine for me!
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Ok guys I decided to really analyze the 2nd half of the coaching, and I got the build order that iNcontroL is suggesting we use. It took a few go throughs, because there are times when he answers questions while distracted, and I actually believe he says something different than he actually does (an example is when he is asked "So you do nexus-->forge-->4th gateway?" and iNcontroL responds "yup" when in reality, he has been going nexus-->4th gateway-->forge the entire time).
Here's what I came up with:
p.s. For those unfamiliar with build order lists, every time supply goes up, but there is not a specific reason for it, like building a Zealot, it is to be increased through probe production
EGiNcontroL's 3-Gate FE (vs. Zerg) (based off of the coaching session provided in this thread) 9- Pylon (scout with this probe) (1) 13- Gateway (1) 15- Assimilator (1) 16- Pylon (2) 18- Cybernetics Core (1) 18- Zealot (1) 22- Assimilator (2) 23- Pylon (3) 24- WarpGate Technology 24- Sentry (1) 27- Gateway x2 (3) 28- Sentry (2)
From here, it seems to be a bit more open to what is happening. In my notebook, I have that he has the following 'checklist'
-8 Sentries (magical number) -Once the 3 gates are done, make Nexus -After Nexus starts, build 4th Gateway -After Gateway starts, build Forge -After Forge starts, put a pylon next to your 2nd Nexus -Once Forge is done, place a cannon in between your 2nd Nexus and your ramp (for burrowed roaches and zergling run-bys) -Once cannon begins, start +1 ATK upgrade** -After starting +1 ATK, begin "Shark Mode" -Once cannon finishes, build Robotics Bay (he builds it at the natural) -After robotics starts, build 4th gas at natural
**Upgrade order** +1 ATK +1 Armor -Twilight Council +2 ATK +3 ATK +2 Armor +3 Armor
Let me know if I missed anything!
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Thanks for posting this. I learned a good deal. Most protoss players unless they are very top diamond can probably learn from this.
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Khaaladas, thank you so much for this. Can you host it on youtube or some other place where we can download it for later viewing. Livestream doesn't allow downloads (even with the firefox plugin :-( ) and for those of us at work we cant view 2 hours of this.
Please please upload to youtube cheers..
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
glad you guys liked it And thanks to khaladas for sharing.. it is of course fine to do so
lots of great students taking time to share this stuff.. pretty cool
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Wow, thanks for posting this up for all of us! INControl seems like a pretty nice guy too. Will definitely check out the full vid soon.
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iNcontroL voted for best control.
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On January 07 2011 14:24 Fubsywubkis wrote: Ok guys I decided to really analyze the 2nd half of the coaching, and I got the build order that iNcontroL is suggesting we use. It took a few go throughs, because there are times when he answers questions while distracted, and I actually believe he says something different than he actually does (an example is when he is asked "So you do nexus-->forge-->4th gateway?" and iNcontroL responds "yup" when in reality, he has been going nexus-->4th gateway-->forge the entire time).
Here's what I came up with:
p.s. For those unfamiliar with build order lists, every time supply goes up, but there is not a specific reason for it, like building a Zealot, it is to be increased through probe production
EGiNcontroL's 3-Gate FE (vs. Zerg) (based off of the coaching session provided in this thread) 9- Pylon (scout with this probe) (1) 13- Gateway (1) 15- Assimilator (1) 16- Pylon (2) 18- Cybernetics Core (1) 18- Zealot (1) 22- Assimilator (2) 23- Pylon (3) 24- WarpGate Technology 24- Sentry (1) 27- Gateway x2 (3) 28- Sentry (2)
From here, it seems to be a bit more open to what is happening. In my notebook, I have that he has the following 'checklist'
-8 Sentries (magical number) -Once the 3 gates are done, make Nexus -After Nexus starts, build 4th Gateway -After Gateway starts, build Forge -After Forge starts, put a pylon next to your 2nd Nexus -Once Forge is done, place a cannon in between your 2nd Nexus and your ramp (for burrowed roaches and zergling run-bys) -Once cannon begins, start +1 ATK upgrade** -After starting +1 ATK, begin "Shark Mode" -Once cannon finishes, build Robotics Bay (he builds it at the natural) -After robotics starts, build 4th gas at natural
**Upgrade order** +1 ATK +1 Armor -Twilight Council +2 ATK +3 ATK +2 Armor +3 Armor
Let me know if I missed anything!
Yes, After nexus, put a pylon then a cannon hugging the nexus. Therefore it will pown the Burrowed Roaches.
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I only watched around half of it and found it very insightful. I wished there was a compendium with some sort of this lessons to help new players like me who are Bronze and have little experience in RTS games.
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On January 07 2011 22:31 SoftSoap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 14:24 Fubsywubkis wrote: Ok guys I decided to really analyze the 2nd half of the coaching, and I got the build order that iNcontroL is suggesting we use. It took a few go throughs, because there are times when he answers questions while distracted, and I actually believe he says something different than he actually does (an example is when he is asked "So you do nexus-->forge-->4th gateway?" and iNcontroL responds "yup" when in reality, he has been going nexus-->4th gateway-->forge the entire time).
Here's what I came up with:
p.s. For those unfamiliar with build order lists, every time supply goes up, but there is not a specific reason for it, like building a Zealot, it is to be increased through probe production
EGiNcontroL's 3-Gate FE (vs. Zerg) (based off of the coaching session provided in this thread) 9- Pylon (scout with this probe) (1) 13- Gateway (1) 15- Assimilator (1) 16- Pylon (2) 18- Cybernetics Core (1) 18- Zealot (1) 22- Assimilator (2) 23- Pylon (3) 24- WarpGate Technology 24- Sentry (1) 27- Gateway x2 (3) 28- Sentry (2)
From here, it seems to be a bit more open to what is happening. In my notebook, I have that he has the following 'checklist'
-8 Sentries (magical number) -Once the 3 gates are done, make Nexus -After Nexus starts, build 4th Gateway -After Gateway starts, build Forge -After Forge starts, put a pylon next to your 2nd Nexus -Once Forge is done, place a cannon in between your 2nd Nexus and your ramp (for burrowed roaches and zergling run-bys) -Once cannon begins, start +1 ATK upgrade** -After starting +1 ATK, begin "Shark Mode" -Once cannon finishes, build Robotics Bay (he builds it at the natural) -After robotics starts, build 4th gas at natural
**Upgrade order** +1 ATK +1 Armor -Twilight Council +2 ATK +3 ATK +2 Armor +3 Armor
Let me know if I missed anything! Yes, After nexus, put a pylon then a cannon hugging the nexus. Therefore it will pown the Burrowed Roaches. lol I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or serious, but that's what iNcontroL said to do...
:-D
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On January 07 2011 23:00 Icebergue wrote: I only watched around half of it and found it very insightful. I wished there was a compendium with some sort of this lessons to help new players like me who are Bronze and have little experience in RTS games. I just wanted to say, I think that you should definitely watch the rest of it. I found the second half to be...even more helpful, in some ways. It was really solid.
On a side note, how effective is this type of build against Terran and Protoss? I was playing on the ladder last night, and I REALLY liked how this build felt, when playing against Zerg. I felt very safe, and when I entered 'shark mode', I ended up decidedly winning the game right then and there. I decided to try it on Scrap Station as well, against Terran, and it did well, but that is obviously because of the map itself. Is there a variation for PvP and PvT? Or would you just do basically the exact same thing? (possibly moving the cannon for burrowed roaches to the minerals, for banshees?)
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On January 07 2011 18:55 {88}iNcontroL wrote:glad you guys liked it And thanks to khaladas for sharing.. it is of course fine to do so lots of great students taking time to share this stuff.. pretty cool
Thank you for letting the re-stream, I found it very interesting. You could maybe even make a show with your best lessons, I guess it would be watched a lot!
For example, some PvT
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On January 07 2011 08:00 Moonloop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 07:55 Geovu wrote:I have to say that it's funny to hear the mindless clicking and spamming in the beginning of the games Really nice VOD btw, though honestly I'd still ask iNcontrol before posting this, I mean it IS a VOD of a paid lesson you're giving out for free. I'm sure a person like Idra would sue you or something if he realized you were putting up vods of his assloadexpensive coaching lessons. ;P Even though iNcontrol seems like a pretty chill guy, second only to nony, imo it is common courtesy. He did ask - iNc is fine with it. Khaladas says so on the second page. And there's been a tonne of these vods of iNcontroL casting - he wouldn't suddenly take issue with it. Didn't notice the comment, no biggie I guess.
Learned a ton about PvZ even though I thought that I more or less 'had the matchup down', iNcontrol you're so awesome and such a ballin' dude! ;D
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On January 08 2011 01:47 Fubsywubkis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 23:00 Icebergue wrote: I only watched around half of it and found it very insightful. I wished there was a compendium with some sort of this lessons to help new players like me who are Bronze and have little experience in RTS games. I just wanted to say, I think that you should definitely watch the rest of it. I found the second half to be...even more helpful, in some ways. It was really solid. On a side note, how effective is this type of build against Terran and Protoss? I was playing on the ladder last night, and I REALLY liked how this build felt, when playing against Zerg. I felt very safe, and when I entered 'shark mode', I ended up decidedly winning the game right then and there. I decided to try it on Scrap Station as well, against Terran, and it did well, but that is obviously because of the map itself. Is there a variation for PvP and PvT? Or would you just do basically the exact same thing? (possibly moving the cannon for burrowed roaches to the minerals, for banshees?)
It doesn't work at all against protoss or terran. Adjusted variations of the opening can be used vs terran, but nothing remotely similar will work in pvp.
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On January 08 2011 01:47 Fubsywubkis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 23:00 Icebergue wrote: I only watched around half of it and found it very insightful. I wished there was a compendium with some sort of this lessons to help new players like me who are Bronze and have little experience in RTS games. I just wanted to say, I think that you should definitely watch the rest of it. I found the second half to be...even more helpful, in some ways. It was really solid. On a side note, how effective is this type of build against Terran and Protoss? I was playing on the ladder last night, and I REALLY liked how this build felt, when playing against Zerg. I felt very safe, and when I entered 'shark mode', I ended up decidedly winning the game right then and there. I decided to try it on Scrap Station as well, against Terran, and it did well, but that is obviously because of the map itself. Is there a variation for PvP and PvT? Or would you just do basically the exact same thing? (possibly moving the cannon for burrowed roaches to the minerals, for banshees?)
I will for sure today and I will be looking forward to the 2 next lessons vs Terran and Protoss if Khaladas restreams it.
Thank you for letting the re-stream, I found it very interesting. You could maybe even make a show with your best lessons, I guess it would be watched a lot!
Indeed, would be awesome.
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Watched the whole 2 hours, I always enjoy his coaching vid's and it was pretty good. I'd love to see some more of InControl's training in PvZ with some higher diamond toss.
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Assuming Incontrol reads this, I just want to say how mindblowing that session was for me....
I am exactly in the same place as this protoss, give or take a few personal foibles and quirks, and everything really resonated with me. I dont have the ability to pay for coaching, but I have always been very dismissive of the idea of such things (i.e thinking things such as "you dont need golf lessons, just teach yourself if you are smart and want/practice hard enough") but the basic points tailored to the individual really changes that.
No reason to post this really, except because I cant believe how much my perceptions have been reversed of gaming-coaching, in both the effectiveness and proffessional aspects.
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Resilve, you should look up some of Mr. Bitter's videos where InControl and Machine coach him on Zerg. Those videos made me want to switch to Zerg for a while but this one makes me want to stick with Protoss and work on some pretty big similar issues. Like not constantly keeping my army moving while faking aggression and getting caught with my army out of position. And my third expansion timing is about a colossus production cycle too slow.
Hoping that a PvT coaching session comes out. My PvT and ZvT matchup is so bad. Even my TvT is horrible.
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Wow, thank you for posting this Khaladas and thank you to Incontrol for allowing your students to share their sessions.
I had the same problem as you in that, I am a really passive player and that gets me killed in PvZ. The whole "shark mode" bit was a huge revelation for me. I had my doubts about coaching but, Incontrol is one amazing teacher.
If it's not too much trouble would you mind posting a replay of the very last game (Incontrol vs.aquanda)? I really want to perfect the 3-gate expand build he does.
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Thanks for sharing this, it's very informative and will definitely help me with my Protoss/PvZ. Shark Mode is awesome.
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This is awesome. I usually always do blink stalkers in PvZ, but this has inspired me to play standard. It's quite fun.
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Nice, posting so I can find this thread later. Thanks for sharing.
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I wish I could see what InControl would advise build-wise for the other matchups because that heavy sentry play early on is God-like for me when playing against Zerg (I hate dying early!). Maybe it would work for the other MUs? Although the collosi war that is PvP dictates getting collosis Asap =/.
PS InControl is just freaking hillarious. Every time I watch SOtG I laugh my ass off because of him. I would take his coaching session (If i was good enough to need pro coaching lol) just for the humor!
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great stuff can u share ur other sessions too?
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I'm only a few minutes in and so far it is quite the button mashing frenzy with you guys and your mechanical keyboards lol. But I always like watching coaching sessions of the guys at gosucoaching so thank you very much for sharing this with everyone!
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On January 08 2011 14:12 Pankaks wrote: Wow, thank you for posting this Khaladas and thank you to Incontrol for allowing your students to share their sessions.
I had the same problem as you in that, I am a really passive player and that gets me killed in PvZ. The whole "shark mode" bit was a huge revelation for me. I had my doubts about coaching but, Incontrol is one amazing teacher.
If it's not too much trouble would you mind posting a replay of the very last game (Incontrol vs.aquanda)? I really want to perfect the 3-gate expand build he does. I can upload them on Monday when I am back at home if they aren't posted by then by someone else.
And yes, being a passive P will always get you killed :D Pressuring the Z is so essential to keeping him honest with his army size. If I see P holed up in his base with no attempt to fight for map control I see this as a weakness and exploit it (usually through expansions).
The whole 'shark mode' term is pretty awesome, I totally agree!
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Much appreciated aquanda, thank you ^_^.
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Does this get to 56 seconds then stop streaming for anyone else?
I really want to watch this! >_<
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Quite useful. Thank you Khal and Inc.
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Thanks this is great, I am about the same level as you and had a lot of the same questions as you PvZ
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Don't be the turtle toss, be the SHARK TOSS!
I seriously think InControl's description of "Perceived Agression" and entering into "Shark Mode" eclipses any other description I've heard. It crosses even into Zerg and Terran matchups (Zerg perhaps not so much in ZvT until Mutas). You want your opponent to never feel quite safe. You want his assertion of map control to be met very specifically. You want him to never know when it is a superb time to counter. You're dancing the Protoss Death Ball to do a multitude of tasks for you, the least of which is free scouting and lucky breaks on positioning.
Good share Khaladas, love it! Showed it to all my Platinum friends struggling with map presence and midgame/lategame strategies
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The link doesn't work for me
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Thanks for posting this! It was very educational, and I've been able to apply a lot of the lesson to my own play. I suspect InControl will have some new students soon.
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Thank you for sharing this with us!
Now that I've seen this session on more standard play it will be easier for me to plan a coaching session were I can focus on my personal flaws in PvZ.
Would probably not have booked one if I had not seen this
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just want to say this works great vs 2.8k-3k zergs, so yeah its awesomeeee
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thanks for uploading !
hope u do the same for ur other sessions
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Canada13372 Posts
Thanks so much for uploading this its super helpful and very informative. If I could afford coaching I would gladly play but this is good enough for me.
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Thanks so much incontrol, I've always been a fan of your PvZ :O
Btw, I started cracking up when I heard incontrol's hulkish arms typing at a paramount decibel, lol. He sounds exactly like Philip Seymour Hoffman.
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Updated the original post with replay links!
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How much does he charge? Where can i pay? i want to improve from 2400 til 3000 diamond:-)
What was your progression Khaladas?
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On January 10 2011 07:28 BBC.807 wrote: What was your progression Khaladas?
I am very curious how you have progressed in your PvZ since the coaching session. Have you seen significant improvements? Was the coaching session worth the money in your opinion?
Also, thanks so much to you and Incontrol both for sharing and allowing the vod's to be shared. Its so awesome being able to hear the thought process of a pro.
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loved this video. highly suggest it to any protoss player, high and low levels alike. Since watching and practicing with this build in diamond 1v1, i've noticed significant improvements in my gameplay.
by having this gameplan you are constantly focused. i have hugely payed more attention to chronoboost. Also, my APM has gone up by an average of 20.
I also had no idea sentries (force field) were that amazing early game. I am more comfortable with expansion timings and most specifically using the robo. i tend to play more twilight templar specific builds, but now i am learning the power of the robo and how to use it correctly.
great in all match ups. i just really thought this was a great coaching lesson and wanted to thank Khaladas and inControl.
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On January 10 2011 07:28 BBC.807 wrote: How much does he charge? Where can i pay? i want to improve from 2400 til 3000 diamond:-)
What was your progression Khaladas?
www.gosucoaching.net you can set up a time with him there. http://www.gosucoaching.com/
There are a lot of other coaches there that I have heard great things about, many are current pros on the scene.
Ask him about pricing, I know the prices change occasionally and he does multi-session discounts, so just ask him.
A lot of the tips he gave me on my game carry over to all matchups, but in particular I have been using this build quite a bit and it's extremely stable.
In the 100 ladder matches prior to this lesson, my overall win rate was 45%, roughly around the same for all matchups. My zerg win rate had been as low as 35% at one point.
15 ladder matches since this lesson, win % is at 53% with a 57% win rate vs Zerg
Progression wise, I'm pretty confident this session is going to set me on my way to breaking into diamond a lot faster than I would have been able to do on my own.
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Hey Khaladas - Any chance of getting this stream mirrored elsewhere? For whatever reason, my stream stops streaming at 56 seconds (even if I skip forward past this point, it wont stream >_<!).
This video is likely to convince me to buy some time with InControl :D
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On January 10 2011 09:29 3nvy wrote: Hey Khaladas - Any chance of getting this stream mirrored elsewhere? For whatever reason, my stream stops streaming at 56 seconds (even if I skip forward past this point, it wont stream >_<!).
This video is likely to convince me to buy some time with InControl :D
Well it was captured by LiveStream but I don't have a clue how to get it off that site and posted somewhere else.
If anyone can help me do this, i'd be glad to put it up on youtube or just create a download link.
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watching him play and talk through his own thought process is amazing, would love to see for pvp and pvt also.
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im pretty interested to know why incontrol chose to continue to produce zeals since doesnt that defeatt the whole purpose of splitting up his army with forcefields?
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Thanks so much for posting this. My PvZ has jumped up a whole level after watching + studying the video. Definitely considering getting coaching from Inc once I get a job =D
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On January 10 2011 21:16 b_unnies wrote: im pretty interested to know why incontrol chose to continue to produce zeals since doesnt that defeatt the whole purpose of splitting up his army with forcefields?
Zealots do amazing damage when they're in the enemies' face so the forcefield is just for preventing kiting. It's a better idea to put it behind the enemies' army though, imo.
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Really big thanks for sharing this, some very interesting insights there (I liked the cannon placement at the natural) - I also really like the approach incontrol has to coaching, he doesn't teach cutesy stuff that "may" work sometimes or that depends on insane multitasking. For example, phoenix-openings are perfectly viable too, but I wouldn't advise them to someone who just needs some stability in his PvZs.
The 3 gate sentry-expand 4 gate pressure robo is imo the most solid build currently out there, allows for a good attack force to test the defense of greedy zergs and gets the observer quickly enough vs burrow. Awsome that incontrol allows these sessions to be shared, great advertisement, I'd think about purchasing one lesson myself, if I owned a mic
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On January 11 2011 00:04 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 21:16 b_unnies wrote: im pretty interested to know why incontrol chose to continue to produce zeals since doesnt that defeatt the whole purpose of splitting up his army with forcefields? Zealots do amazing damage when they're in the enemies' face so the forcefield is just for preventing kiting. It's a better idea to put it behind the enemies' army though, imo.
forcefields against Zergs is to reduce dps, zergs kiting defeats the entire purpose of roaches/hydras because they want to be running into your army not running away. why would zergs want to kite stalks/colossus when both have superior range to roaches/hydras
you're suppose to forcefield zerg's army to reduce its size, so majority of it won't be attacking you, and since colossus+stalkers have superior range all of the protoss ball can attack the zerg. zealots defeats the entire purpose of the forcefields since by default they're going into the range of roaches/hydras including the ones that are behind the forcefields
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 11 2011 02:08 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 00:04 iChau wrote:On January 10 2011 21:16 b_unnies wrote: im pretty interested to know why incontrol chose to continue to produce zeals since doesnt that defeatt the whole purpose of splitting up his army with forcefields? Zealots do amazing damage when they're in the enemies' face so the forcefield is just for preventing kiting. It's a better idea to put it behind the enemies' army though, imo. forcefields against Zergs is to reduce dps, zergs kiting defeats the entire purpose of roaches/hydras because they want to be running into your army not running away. why would zergs want to kite stalks/colossus when both have superior range to roaches/hydras you're suppose to forcefield zerg's army to reduce its size, so majority of it won't be attacking you, and since colossus+stalkers have superior range all of the protoss ball can attack the zerg. zealots defeats the entire purpose of the forcefields since by default they're going into the range of roaches/hydras including the ones that are behind the forcefields
making zealots is good for handling lings when ff's aren't necessary OR when ff's block in their lings. Additionally I make zeals based on my gas. I am trying to conserve gas for collo/upgrades/stalkers etc.. but with 4 warpgates you will have more minerals than gas available as long as you are doing the build right so churning out zealots is a must to still grow your army but not impair the collo numbers
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On January 11 2011 02:55 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 02:08 b_unnies wrote:On January 11 2011 00:04 iChau wrote:On January 10 2011 21:16 b_unnies wrote: im pretty interested to know why incontrol chose to continue to produce zeals since doesnt that defeatt the whole purpose of splitting up his army with forcefields? Zealots do amazing damage when they're in the enemies' face so the forcefield is just for preventing kiting. It's a better idea to put it behind the enemies' army though, imo. forcefields against Zergs is to reduce dps, zergs kiting defeats the entire purpose of roaches/hydras because they want to be running into your army not running away. why would zergs want to kite stalks/colossus when both have superior range to roaches/hydras you're suppose to forcefield zerg's army to reduce its size, so majority of it won't be attacking you, and since colossus+stalkers have superior range all of the protoss ball can attack the zerg. zealots defeats the entire purpose of the forcefields since by default they're going into the range of roaches/hydras including the ones that are behind the forcefields making zealots is good for handling lings when ff's aren't necessary OR when ff's block in their lings. Additionally I make zeals based on my gas. I am trying to conserve gas for collo/upgrades/stalkers etc.. but with 4 warpgates you will have more minerals than gas available as long as you are doing the build right so churning out zealots is a must to still grow your army but not impair the collo numbers
arent those excess mins better off being spent on expansions? btw you said 4 gates, so i guess ur doing 4 gate/2 robos on 2 bases? im pretty interested to know how you prioritize gas between colossus/ups/stalks/sentries (assuming you lost sentries and need them replaced)
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Great video! I think this kind of coaching is really cool and can be really helpful. I think its great that pros do coaching sessions and things like this but I sort of take issue with them charging for it... With all due respect I understand they have every right to charge for their services but i feel like it should be an optional sort of donation or something similar to what Day[9] does. It doesn't seem right to me to be charging $30 for a 1 hour session. What do you guys think?
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They absolutely should charge for their services. Time is not free, and they are busy people. Time out of their day to help noobs up is time away from their practice sessions. You forget: to the pros, Starcraft is a job.
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Thanks for throwing the replays up!
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 11 2011 03:01 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 02:55 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On January 11 2011 02:08 b_unnies wrote:On January 11 2011 00:04 iChau wrote:On January 10 2011 21:16 b_unnies wrote: im pretty interested to know why incontrol chose to continue to produce zeals since doesnt that defeatt the whole purpose of splitting up his army with forcefields? Zealots do amazing damage when they're in the enemies' face so the forcefield is just for preventing kiting. It's a better idea to put it behind the enemies' army though, imo. forcefields against Zergs is to reduce dps, zergs kiting defeats the entire purpose of roaches/hydras because they want to be running into your army not running away. why would zergs want to kite stalks/colossus when both have superior range to roaches/hydras you're suppose to forcefield zerg's army to reduce its size, so majority of it won't be attacking you, and since colossus+stalkers have superior range all of the protoss ball can attack the zerg. zealots defeats the entire purpose of the forcefields since by default they're going into the range of roaches/hydras including the ones that are behind the forcefields making zealots is good for handling lings when ff's aren't necessary OR when ff's block in their lings. Additionally I make zeals based on my gas. I am trying to conserve gas for collo/upgrades/stalkers etc.. but with 4 warpgates you will have more minerals than gas available as long as you are doing the build right so churning out zealots is a must to still grow your army but not impair the collo numbers arent those excess mins better off being spent on expansions? btw you said 4 gates, so i guess ur doing 4 gate/2 robos on 2 bases? im pretty interested to know how you prioritize gas between colossus/ups/stalks/sentries (assuming you lost sentries and need them replaced)
And I now realize you haven't watched the video and you are just speculating
Conversation over.
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On January 11 2011 03:04 HardCorey wrote: Great video! I think this kind of coaching is really cool and can be really helpful. I think its great that pros do coaching sessions and things like this but I sort of take issue with them charging for it... With all due respect I understand they have every right to charge for their services but i feel like it should be an optional sort of donation or something similar to what Day[9] does. It doesn't seem right to me to be charging $30 for a 1 hour session. What do you guys think?
I don't agree. I wouldnt buy coaching Imyself, but if you are earning a good living and care about the game and therefore want a proven proffessional to tailor improvements to your issues (and that really is the key part) to make you better then why not charge for it if people will pay?
I agree that good starcraft advice should not be hidden content, so places like this forum and day9's daily are very good for the community, but if you want to go that extra step and get specific coaching that addresses your issues alone then it is a level above.
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On January 11 2011 03:21 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 03:01 b_unnies wrote:On January 11 2011 02:55 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On January 11 2011 02:08 b_unnies wrote:On January 11 2011 00:04 iChau wrote:On January 10 2011 21:16 b_unnies wrote: im pretty interested to know why incontrol chose to continue to produce zeals since doesnt that defeatt the whole purpose of splitting up his army with forcefields? Zealots do amazing damage when they're in the enemies' face so the forcefield is just for preventing kiting. It's a better idea to put it behind the enemies' army though, imo. forcefields against Zergs is to reduce dps, zergs kiting defeats the entire purpose of roaches/hydras because they want to be running into your army not running away. why would zergs want to kite stalks/colossus when both have superior range to roaches/hydras you're suppose to forcefield zerg's army to reduce its size, so majority of it won't be attacking you, and since colossus+stalkers have superior range all of the protoss ball can attack the zerg. zealots defeats the entire purpose of the forcefields since by default they're going into the range of roaches/hydras including the ones that are behind the forcefields making zealots is good for handling lings when ff's aren't necessary OR when ff's block in their lings. Additionally I make zeals based on my gas. I am trying to conserve gas for collo/upgrades/stalkers etc.. but with 4 warpgates you will have more minerals than gas available as long as you are doing the build right so churning out zealots is a must to still grow your army but not impair the collo numbers arent those excess mins better off being spent on expansions? btw you said 4 gates, so i guess ur doing 4 gate/2 robos on 2 bases? im pretty interested to know how you prioritize gas between colossus/ups/stalks/sentries (assuming you lost sentries and need them replaced) And I now realize you haven't watched the video and you are just speculating Conversation over.
umm i did watch why else would i be posting otherwise? how else would i have known you were adding in zeals mid/endgame
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On January 11 2011 03:39 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 03:21 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On January 11 2011 03:01 b_unnies wrote:On January 11 2011 02:55 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On January 11 2011 02:08 b_unnies wrote:On January 11 2011 00:04 iChau wrote:On January 10 2011 21:16 b_unnies wrote: im pretty interested to know why incontrol chose to continue to produce zeals since doesnt that defeatt the whole purpose of splitting up his army with forcefields? Zealots do amazing damage when they're in the enemies' face so the forcefield is just for preventing kiting. It's a better idea to put it behind the enemies' army though, imo. forcefields against Zergs is to reduce dps, zergs kiting defeats the entire purpose of roaches/hydras because they want to be running into your army not running away. why would zergs want to kite stalks/colossus when both have superior range to roaches/hydras you're suppose to forcefield zerg's army to reduce its size, so majority of it won't be attacking you, and since colossus+stalkers have superior range all of the protoss ball can attack the zerg. zealots defeats the entire purpose of the forcefields since by default they're going into the range of roaches/hydras including the ones that are behind the forcefields making zealots is good for handling lings when ff's aren't necessary OR when ff's block in their lings. Additionally I make zeals based on my gas. I am trying to conserve gas for collo/upgrades/stalkers etc.. but with 4 warpgates you will have more minerals than gas available as long as you are doing the build right so churning out zealots is a must to still grow your army but not impair the collo numbers arent those excess mins better off being spent on expansions? btw you said 4 gates, so i guess ur doing 4 gate/2 robos on 2 bases? im pretty interested to know how you prioritize gas between colossus/ups/stalks/sentries (assuming you lost sentries and need them replaced) And I now realize you haven't watched the video and you are just speculating Conversation over. umm i did watch why else would i be posting otherwise? how else would i have known you were adding in zeals mid/endgame
Because he clearly was on only one robo. If you watched, then you didn't pay attention to much other than his zealot incorporation
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
and I specifically talk about production in terms of gateways/robos. I also talk about prioritizing gas units and explain why/when/where etc...
Never do I go double robo unless I am maxed and with 4 bases or more.
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iNcontroL, Thanks for allowing him to post this video!! It's dramatically improved my v Zerg match up!
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well i only saw you talking about it early game, but i didnt see it for for mid/endgame. anyways thxs for your help regardless
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Yo Incontrol - is your GosuCoaching.com availability accurate? (Next available early next month)?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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man incontrol is such a suave talker, I could listen to him until Starcraft 3 is out.
This is a great example of what you can get on gosu coaching, im totally considering getting some lessons after hearing this.
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iNcontrol is the truth man!
just had a losing streak and then saw this thread. Tried to absorb what incontrol is talking about.
Went to ladder and my first opponent was zerg on LT and we spawned cross positions.
I won and when i watched the replay, i noticed a few things in my gameplay:
i had more workers mining than the zerg the entire game. Even at the point where he was on three bases, i have more workers mining the patches (even over saturating them). The income tab reflects it.
i chronoboosted more than i ever did. My nexuses didn't even reach 100 energy. Doing this did take away my attention from my scouting probes and observer, which died without me knowing what they saw lol. But i guess that's an apm thing.
The shark mode thing is great! In the replay, while my army was going for the towers to remove zerglings, he was destroying the rocks at his gold. When he saw my army, he retreated to his natural and proceeded to make roaches. My intention was not to fight but just to see his composition and i was able to do it. And he made combat units instead of drones.
Big thanks to Khaladas for posting the video, and InControl for the excellent coaching!
Seriously guys, stop nitpicking on the specifics. Games play out differently and although there's general builds to follow, you don't have to follow them to the letter!
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This was really helpful and the general gameplay ideas were really amazing and insightful, especially the times to pressure and such. My build is a bit different though, I stay on 3gates and get a stargate and super quick 4gas, then scout with Phoenix and then make Void Colossus with StalkerSentry. But the main ideas were really helpful, been helping my PvZ a lot.
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i love incontrol's coaching, thanks to you and all the guys who share their lessons with the community
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I would just like to say a very humble thanks! Both to the OP and especially to Incontrol for allowing this. I learned a great deal from watching it, and have seen a great deal of improvement in my own PvZ by being more aware of what Incontrol is talking about when watching my own replays. From the bottom of my heart - thank you!
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I love this, thank you so much. This will hopefully help me on MY PvZ. (:
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I haven't kept up with the conversation in this thread, but I would like to thank Khaladas for posting this and iNcontroL for letting him do so. I'm a lower level player than Khaladas but I make a lot of the same mistakes and found iNcontroL's advice invaluable. There are a lot of things that may seem obvious like moving your army toward your base whenever you micro, and massing pylons to spend excess minerals that I simply never thought of.
I've been using a 3-gate robo build for a while, but I usually build more stalkers and immortals. This mass sentry opening seems a lot safer, and i'm gonna stick with it for a while and see how it goes.
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Nice coaching and games ! My english is pretty bad so i didn't understand all but i heard so much interesting advices ! In regard to the incontrol's games and the "theory coaching", he said that's you always have to pressure a zerg, but i saw him pressure zerg only with a quite late push (~10:30 on game2). Can you prevent him from hard dronning with this build ? *o*
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The most I have to thank for is not the general Build, not the little techniques you (iNcontroL) provided, not the Insights into the PvZ Matchup you gave, not even the "Shark Mode". I knew about most of these concepts and things before that coaching session but somehow you put all pieces together in my mind and as a result all PvZ I play since that VOD feel completely different: I now feel confident facing Zerg. It is an overwhelmingly good feeling for me as competitive gamer to have such confidence into my play after I struggled against Z for so long.
I was up to write a long homage but Ghostcom sumed it up perfectly.
On January 11 2011 09:12 Ghostcom wrote: I would just like to say a very humble thanks! Both to the OP and especially to Incontrol for allowing this. I learned a great deal from watching it, and have seen a great deal of improvement in my own PvZ by being more aware of what Incontrol is talking about when watching my own replays. From the bottom of my heart - thank you!
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Should you automatically make the robo every game, or wait until your shark mode confirms they didn't open muta?
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Holy crap. I watched the whole thing and tried the build and worked amazing. After going 1-8, I'm undefeated against Zergs today. In general, my Chrono Boosting and probe-making has also gotten a lot better. If you haven't watched it and you're a 'Toss having trouble against Zergs, watch this. Seriously.
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Anyway to download the whole thing? cheers
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On January 11 2011 10:03 Hane wrote: Nice coaching and games ! My english is pretty bad so i didn't understand all but i heard so much interesting advices ! In regard to the incontrol's games and the "theory coaching", he said that's you always have to pressure a zerg, but i saw him pressure zerg only with a quite late push (~10:30 on game2). Can you prevent him from hard dronning with this build ? *o*
He pressures him throughout the game... The point is that you don't have to engage to apply pressure, just moving your army around the map will make it seem like you are about to attack and the zerg will have to make units, and not drones. That's the thing they are talking about when they say "sharkmode" and "probing the waters"...
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Holy crap Incontrol spams so loudly, I don't know how you played hearing that the whole time!
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On January 12 2011 03:53 wuddersup wrote: Holy crap Incontrol spams so loudly, I don't know how you played hearing that the whole time! guess it was not Incontrol :o
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On January 12 2011 03:53 wuddersup wrote: Holy crap Incontrol spams so loudly, I don't know how you played hearing that the whole time! He uses a mechanical keyboard, its not a big deal. Plus he mutes his microphone if you play 1v1 against him for most of the game, unless he has something to say so you don't have to hear it if you don't want to.
I've had a lesson from with with 3 more coming up and I can honestly say if it wasn't for videos like this and MrBitters stream I would have never got a lesson. It's definitely a good idea on iNcontrol's part to let people stream and record their lessons with him.
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Solid build, incontrol. I've played around with this build a bit and I've done better against gas before hatch Zergs. I do have a quick question tho if you wouldn't mind helping out.
I'm not sure I understand why you'd want to get the forge so early. With that many sentries, you're basically untouchable against straight attacks, and by getting the robo before the forge, you can have an obs for detection about the same time that your cannon would finish, so delaying the forge doesn't pose a problem against burrow roaches.
I like the fast +1/+1 as much as the next person, but I find that starting the upgrades so early creates a gas crunch around the time your +1 armor finishes. To keep your upgrades on track, you need 275 gas for a twilight and +2 weapons, and this gas sink hits right when you're trying to transition to collosi which requires 200 gas for support bay, 200 gas for range, and 200 gas for your first collosus. If you want blink soon after the twilight council finishes, that's another 150 gas. By delaying the forge a bit (I've been getting my forge after my first immortal, but I don't know what's best), you can get your obs and immortal quicker, allowing you to be a bit more aggressive and take out creep tumors earlier. Perhaps more importantly, you stagger the gas crunch where you're going for +2 and collosus tech around the same time.
Are you timing your collosus transition differently than I am, building a ton of zealots around this time, or am I missing something more obvious?
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On January 11 2011 13:24 iamke55 wrote: Should you automatically make the robo every game, or wait until your shark mode confirms they didn't open muta?
If you see a mass of roaches. If not, you can make other things, knowing that they're no burrow shenanigans. Of course against a decent zerg, he'll bury a zergling at each of the expansion so your expansions will be late if you don't have observers.
It's still good to get the robo though, very good scouting.
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What about when they go mutas from the get-go? In my experience it is the case that mutas pop out and harass before you even have a chance to enter "shark mode," (iNcontroL said it was around 10 minutes) and while you're waiting for your units to pop out to enter aforementioned mode , the zerg can very easily delay attacking you until he gets mutas, thus giving you no scouting information. IMO it seems like with this build you find out about mutas way too late and you will end up having to stay in your base all the time or get run over. I mean, yeah you're adding 2 more gates so you're up to 6, but by that point the Z can get a critical mass of mutas, add tons of speedlings, and run over you like roflwhat.
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On January 12 2011 07:04 kcdc wrote: Solid build, incontrol. I've played around with this build a bit and I've done better against gas before hatch Zergs. I do have a quick question tho if you wouldn't mind helping out.
I'm not sure I understand why you'd want to get the forge so early. With that many sentries, you're basically untouchable against straight attacks, and by getting the robo before the forge, you can have an obs for detection about the same time that your cannon would finish, so delaying the forge doesn't pose a problem against burrow roaches.
I like the fast +1/+1 as much as the next person, but I find that starting the upgrades so early creates a gas crunch around the time your +1 armor finishes. To keep your upgrades on track, you need 275 gas for a twilight and +2 weapons, and this gas sink hits right when you're trying to transition to collosi which requires 200 gas for support bay, 200 gas for range, and 200 gas for your first collosus. If you want blink soon after the twilight council finishes, that's another 150 gas. By delaying the forge a bit (I've been getting my forge after my first immortal, but I don't know what's best), you can get your obs and immortal quicker, allowing you to be a bit more aggressive and take out creep tumors earlier. Perhaps more importantly, you stagger the gas crunch where you're going for +2 and collosus tech around the same time.
Are you timing your collosus transition differently than I am, building a ton of zealots around this time, or am I missing something more obvious?
You need a very early cannon for speedling runbys. Without it, you would be unable to leave your base to go pressure. Also there may be some roach/speedling all-ins that are much easier to hold if you have the cannon.
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He is quite a good player, I like how good this is.
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On January 12 2011 17:21 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 07:04 kcdc wrote: Solid build, incontrol. I've played around with this build a bit and I've done better against gas before hatch Zergs. I do have a quick question tho if you wouldn't mind helping out.
I'm not sure I understand why you'd want to get the forge so early. With that many sentries, you're basically untouchable against straight attacks, and by getting the robo before the forge, you can have an obs for detection about the same time that your cannon would finish, so delaying the forge doesn't pose a problem against burrow roaches.
I like the fast +1/+1 as much as the next person, but I find that starting the upgrades so early creates a gas crunch around the time your +1 armor finishes. To keep your upgrades on track, you need 275 gas for a twilight and +2 weapons, and this gas sink hits right when you're trying to transition to collosi which requires 200 gas for support bay, 200 gas for range, and 200 gas for your first collosus. If you want blink soon after the twilight council finishes, that's another 150 gas. By delaying the forge a bit (I've been getting my forge after my first immortal, but I don't know what's best), you can get your obs and immortal quicker, allowing you to be a bit more aggressive and take out creep tumors earlier. Perhaps more importantly, you stagger the gas crunch where you're going for +2 and collosus tech around the same time.
Are you timing your collosus transition differently than I am, building a ton of zealots around this time, or am I missing something more obvious? You need a very early cannon for speedling runbys. Without it, you would be unable to leave your base to go pressure. Also there may be some roach/speedling all-ins that are much easier to hold if you have the cannon.
I suppose the cannon buys you a few extra seconds to warp in because they have to either kill the cannon or run all the way into your main. Still, I think I prefer going 4 gates, then robo, then forge. If you're really worried about an early runby, you can leave a zealot or a sentry back to wall off. I just find I never have enough gas to go straight to +2 after my +1 armor finishes.
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United States8476 Posts
I use a very similar build to incontrol's and for me, the cannon is mainly for 2 things. First of all, it helps so much vs roach ling allins. I find that on some maps it's close to impossible to hold these allins without a cannon. Secondly, when you go to pressure you'll have peace of mind that you're relatively safe from a ling runby. Without the cannon, the zerg can stop mining at your natural with just a few speedlings.
Also, to kcdc, I know the gas crunch you're talking about, so I've developed a few solutions to balance out my resources. First, I delay the twilight council to a bit later around when my 3rd is going up. Thus, my +2 upgrade approximately starts when collosi range finishes. Secondly, I pump a lot of minerals into proxy pylons, zealot harass, and cannons to defend my 3rd, dumping these resources into something more useful.
In addition, I probably get my robo a bit slower than you and I find that the one robo doesn't help that much for aggression. You'll get stopped by burrowed roaches, but otherwise, the immortal comes really slow.
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On January 12 2011 17:07 ManShake wrote: What about when they go mutas from the get-go? In my experience it is the case that mutas pop out and harass before you even have a chance to enter "shark mode," (iNcontroL said it was around 10 minutes) and while you're waiting for your units to pop out to enter aforementioned mode , the zerg can very easily delay attacking you until he gets mutas, thus giving you no scouting information. IMO it seems like with this build you find out about mutas way too late and you will end up having to stay in your base all the time or get run over. I mean, yeah you're adding 2 more gates so you're up to 6, but by that point the Z can get a critical mass of mutas, add tons of speedlings, and run over you like roflwhat.
You can easily move out at 9 minutes.
If he has a lot of speedlings and a couple of crawlers, then he's aiming for mutas. Everytime you pressure from 9 minutes and onwards, you delay his mutalisks as he is forced to keep creating speedlings + spine crawlers or lose.
If you see a lot of zerglings early game when your expo is near completion, he's usually going mutalisks. You can precede to throw down 2 gateways and finish them off with a 6 gate +1 push.
Remember that mutalisks are weak in straight combat, but the zerg needs ALL his units to beat your push.
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On January 06 2011 16:03 riboflavin wrote: I am watching now to see what I can learn. Thanks for sharing!
Also, I hope that you got the 'okay' from InControl before posting this. Please don't take my comments too harshly or create a whole sub debate on what I am about to say(I am not trying to thread crap or anything), but he might view his coaching and the tips he shared with you his IP. Rebroadcasting that without his permission is, at minimum, BM.
He seems a cool enough guy and all, so I'm sure it wouldn't even be a a big deal to him. But that is all the more reason to check with him first if you hadn't already!
I think this type of VODs are the best advertising there is for incontrol/other coaches... I know that atleast i would never have considered paying for sc2 lessons before seeing one of these videos. After seeing some of them i am atleast entertaining the idea
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Cheers for sharing, I saw Incontrol coaching in MrBitter's stream last night - and he is just amazing (being good at SC and being good at coaching are too different skills )
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
all the q's are answered it would seem And honestly they are answered pretty close to how I would do it. I manage my gas by making zeals when I need to conserve. So I usually have 6-7 zeals with my army not because I think they are fantastic but so I can keep my warp-in cylces going while managing my gas. But yes, the cannon is hugely important for fast burrow defense and also ling run bys since I spend a lot of time outside my base if I didn't have it and relied on leaving a zeal behind (sometimes doesn't block/defend natural mineral line) I would lose a LOT more.
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I managed to download the video, it's 493 MB though and 2 hours long ( too long for youtube ).
Anyone have a good suggestion for a site that would host a file of this size? One that preferably isn't annoying to retrieve files from.
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The replay download links don't work for me, it says 'no data to parse'.
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I am still sort of learning PvZ, it's probably my worst MU and i feel like it holds me back from advancing up the ladder. So this was very insightful thanks for posting.
I have a question though, is it ok to enter "shark mode" earlier than 10 minutes? feel like 10 minutes is too late to check for a muta/ling build. would it be bad to poke out at around the time i am getting my robo to try to get a better idea of what i am facing?
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On January 14 2011 05:13 Khaladas wrote: I managed to download the video, it's 493 MB though and 2 hours long ( too long for youtube ).
Anyone have a good suggestion for a site that would host a file of this size? One that preferably isn't annoying to retrieve files from.
I know MrBitters hosts his archived lessons on blip.tv, maybe you could try there?
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can anyone reupload the replays from the first post?
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On January 14 2011 05:13 Khaladas wrote: I managed to download the video, it's 493 MB though and 2 hours long ( too long for youtube ).
Anyone have a good suggestion for a site that would host a file of this size? One that preferably isn't annoying to retrieve files from.
If you are going to release this to download, I think id Love you forever!!!!
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Just wanted to thank both Khaladas and iNcontroL for this awesome lesson. Ive been struggeling with PvZ and this video will help me out so much that words cant cover it.
The fact that the sessions are free and open is just amazing and pure awesomesauce.
iNcontroL, you are my hero.
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Watched this the other day, very informative :D
Many thanks to Khaladas and InControl.
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On January 14 2011 07:45 Tommylew wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 05:13 Khaladas wrote: I managed to download the video, it's 493 MB though and 2 hours long ( too long for youtube ).
Anyone have a good suggestion for a site that would host a file of this size? One that preferably isn't annoying to retrieve files from. If you are going to release this to download, I think id Love you forever!!!!
Ok here is the download link for the whole session, will edit the original post as well to include this link: http://www.easy-share.com/1913552133/Khaladas PvZ Coaching Incontrol.mp4
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i still sux at pvz Is this tutorial made for ~platinum / diam or this strat still works great at incontrol lvl ? Assuming my macro/micro aren't so bad, i would say that the strat is "basically" : - 3gate expo (all CB on probes) + mass sentry - +1gate / 1forge (fast upgrades). - +1robo - 10min scout/pressure - add immo if needed or make colossus. - B3 with the 1st colossus, add some gateways + twilight - secure@canon with mineral 'unused' - swtich tech (like dt's/ht i believe) when you scout some coruptors. - macro macro until win :o
I often got problems to take my b3+ (lings/roach harass => cancel ect...), any tips ?
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Have to say thanks for posting this, and thanks for anilitical look at PvZ. I am a zerg player, not a protoss, but just listening and watching it makes me more aware of possibilitys they can do, or openings for me, thanks for sharing khala/incontrol
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looks like i'm late to the party, would really like to see the replays uploaded again. plz and thank you
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Thank you! Great contribution to the community! It really is refreshing and inspiring to see new people putting such effort to improving themselves and helping others in the process. Again, thanks!
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Firstly, I just want to say a massive thank you to both Khaladas and iNcontroL for posting this/allowing it to be posted. This has helped me so much to understand this matchup, and having a plan right into the late-game is really benefitting my play.
The one big issue I've been having with this build is against 1 base all-ins from the zerg, specifically 7RR. On a map like Steppes with a short rush distance and a ramp which needs 2 FFs I find it quite tough to hold. I scout with my 9 pylon probe, which will see an early pool, which of course sets alarm bells ringing. I'm not sure that's quite enough of a tell, so I check again after dropping the core, which seems a good timing to see the roach warren. Is this the best way to scout 7RR? And what is the optimal response? I have been trying dropping a forge before 2nd gateway and getting a couple of cannons at my choke, skipping the first zealot to do so, and then chronoing out sentries from the first gateway until the rush hits around 5:30. That just about holds it, but it's pretty close. Is there a better response than this? And what would be the best transition from here?
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On January 14 2011 20:14 Mr Pink wrote: Firstly, I just want to say a massive thank you to both Khaladas and iNcontroL for posting this/allowing it to be posted. This has helped me so much to understand this matchup, and having a plan right into the late-game is really benefitting my play.
The one big issue I've been having with this build is against 1 base all-ins from the zerg, specifically 7RR. On a map like Steppes with a short rush distance and a ramp which needs 2 FFs I find it quite tough to hold. I scout with my 9 pylon probe, which will see an early pool, which of course sets alarm bells ringing. I'm not sure that's quite enough of a tell, so I check again after dropping the core, which seems a good timing to see the roach warren. Is this the best way to scout 7RR? And what is the optimal response? I have been trying dropping a forge before 2nd gateway and getting a couple of cannons at my choke, skipping the first zealot to do so, and then chronoing out sentries from the first gateway until the rush hits around 5:30. That just about holds it, but it's pretty close. Is there a better response than this? And what would be the best transition from here?
(2500 diamond here),
on close positions you could always throw down a forge+cannon if you are uncertain - if he does do the 7RR build and you do a forge+cannon then you will own him with a 3gate sentry build in the long run.
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Thank you for posting this, my PvZ now has direction and im winning more than 10% of my PvZ's now (at 2700 diamond.)
One concern I had was that there seems to be a complete lack of earlyish game pressure and I'm worried that when I start shark mode he will just have droned so hard and all it takes is a couple lings and 3 spinecrawlers to defend vs my, at the time, sentry- heavy army.
Am I overestimating the zerg's droning abilities vs my probe production?
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Thanks for posting this!
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On January 14 2011 22:20 Garth wrote: Thank you for posting this, my PvZ now has direction and im winning more than 10% of my PvZ's now (at 2700 diamond.)
One concern I had was that there seems to be a complete lack of earlyish game pressure and I'm worried that when I start shark mode he will just have droned so hard and all it takes is a couple lings and 3 spinecrawlers to defend vs my, at the time, sentry- heavy army.
Am I overestimating the zerg's droning abilities vs my probe production?
You CAN pressure early-game. On maps like lost temple with the huge watchtowers, you can see where the lings go. You should have 5 sentries 1 stalker(?) and 1 zealot when you expanded, and you can move out with that force. Hug a wall, and you're pretty much safe.
Take down all watchtower lings as well, including expansion lings. You have to have map awareness, though.
Basically, a more earlier form of shark mode. 5 sentries 1 stalker and 1 zealot can handle a lot of lings with forcefields.
You only need 8-9 sentries, and then you want to dump the minerals/gas into stalkers.
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On January 14 2011 22:20 Garth wrote: Thank you for posting this, my PvZ now has direction and im winning more than 10% of my PvZ's now (at 2700 diamond.)
One concern I had was that there seems to be a complete lack of earlyish game pressure and I'm worried that when I start shark mode he will just have droned so hard and all it takes is a couple lings and 3 spinecrawlers to defend vs my, at the time, sentry- heavy army.
Am I overestimating the zerg's droning abilities vs my probe production?
That's the weakness of the sentry expand. It's a very strong defensive build that has solid macro, but you don't have enough muscle to push through even smaller forces of roaches and spine crawlers until you have collosi+range. On a map like LT, Zerg can get 3 spines at his nat and a handful of zerglings and then rush creep out to the tower to move his spines up and take the gold super early. He then builds a small force of roaches and defends in the open area with his spines and P can't really do anything about it.
Zerg can respond to sentry expanding by being very greedy economically. The other good option Z has against sentry expanding is drops which make sentries almost useless.
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Hi Khaladas,
the video is great, but the replay links don't work...
ReplayFU says : "no data to parse" for each link...
Could u upload them to a site like "http://www.gamereplays.org" ?
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Canada13372 Posts
On January 15 2011 00:43 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 22:20 Garth wrote: Thank you for posting this, my PvZ now has direction and im winning more than 10% of my PvZ's now (at 2700 diamond.)
One concern I had was that there seems to be a complete lack of earlyish game pressure and I'm worried that when I start shark mode he will just have droned so hard and all it takes is a couple lings and 3 spinecrawlers to defend vs my, at the time, sentry- heavy army.
Am I overestimating the zerg's droning abilities vs my probe production? That's the weakness of the sentry expand. It's a very strong defensive build that has solid macro, but you don't have enough muscle to push through even smaller forces of roaches and spine crawlers until you have collosi+range. On a map like LT, Zerg can get 3 spines at his nat and a handful of zerglings and then rush creep out to the tower to move his spines up and take the gold super early. He then builds a small force of roaches and defends in the open area with his spines and P can't really do anything about it. Zerg can respond to sentry expanding by being very greedy economically. The other good option Z has against sentry expanding is drops which make sentries almost useless.
I've been finding the same thing but what I have started to do is once I get 5 sentries out and a zealot. I expand then warp in a few stalkers and a zealot, then I get another 3 sentries on the next cool down (or 2 depending on my gas - in plat no perfect macro here). Once I have these units I find I can still be defensive early on and am able to poke in to check on the Zerg as well. Being able to further warp in the sentries later on to get up to a larger number means I can choose to forego them or still let them build energy in the early mid game.
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Thanks a lot for this, all the tips and small things, are very essential, and its just great to have it being said. Its a good thing to keep in mind at all times. Very nice.
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still want to see those replays
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Yeah, me too !
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My first time watching iNcontrol coaching. In the past I have not been a fan of his analysis of the game but I gotta say I was quite impressed at his skills as a teacher. He is very pedagogical.
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On January 15 2011 04:23 REM.ca wrote: My first time watching iNcontrol coaching. In the past I have not been a fan of his analysis of the game but I gotta say I was quite impressed at his skills as a teacher. He is very pedagogical.
+1
Mad props to Khaladas for posting this and iNcontrol for coaching - Not only has my PvZ gotten better (even though it's my best matchup personally) but I'm a new fan of iNcontrol. Well done guys!
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Ok I updated the original post to and put the replay pack on easy-share, hopefully you will have an easier time than before.
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Hey Khaladas, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Thanks to Incontrol as well.
Im a 2300 point master leaguer, and have been using this build quite frequently on the ladder. And for the most part its quite nice.
However, I feel like like there are quite a couple things zerg can do to throw off your build here.
1) gas steal - limits sentry production obviously - makes the "magical number" of 8 sentries nearly impossible to get by the 40ish supply mark where you should be expanding
2) block your cybernetics core wall in (delays early sentries, throws off your build) - delays sentry production - delays wall in, making ling run by more of a threat
more importantly a fast tech to mutas by the zerg player, even if you sense it coming by seeing many speedlings, can harass you in your base endlessly.
I've noticed that many of the zergs I lose to choose to do this. They will see my sentry heavy build, and instead of over-commiting with lings, they allow me to do my "shark mode" (taking towers, picking off overlords, poking/prodding in general) knowing that I cannot outright kill them myself.
There have been numerous games where they let me expand, and simply drone like crazy even when im running around the map taking towers, killing fresh creep tumors. They've got 3 spines up and ling production is quick, from their point of view, I don't feel in danger either.
Once their lair finishes, they explode with a decent number of mutas rallied straight to my base and I have nothing to stop it.
I suppose I should time myself for a 6 gate warpgate timing push, but mutas will be out on the way there. They will kill your probes first, shutting down your warpgate reinforcements, and then mass speedling spinecrawler for defence, forcing me to gg.
Thanks to anyone who can offer some help. (cannot provide a replay at this time, but I'm at the level where following a build order is not a problem.)
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On January 15 2011 05:33 QTIP. wrote: Hey Khaladas, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Thanks to Incontrol as well.
Im a 2300 point master leaguer, and have been using this build quite frequently on the ladder. And for the most part its quite nice.
However, I feel like like there are quite a couple things zerg can do to throw off your build here.
1) gas steal - limits sentry production obviously - makes the "magical number" of 8 sentries nearly impossible to get by the 40ish supply mark where you should be expanding
2) block your cybernetics core wall in (delays early sentries, throws off your build) - delays sentry production - delays wall in, making ling run by more of a threat
more importantly a fast tech to mutas by the zerg player, even if you sense it coming by seeing many speedlings, can harass you in your base endlessly.
I've noticed that many of the zergs I lose to choose to do this. They will see my sentry heavy build, and instead of over-commiting with lings, they allow me to do my "shark mode" (taking towers, picking off overlords, poking/prodding in general) knowing that I cannot outright kill them myself.
There have been numerous games where they let me expand, and simply drone like crazy even when im running around the map taking towers, killing fresh creep tumors. They've got 3 spines up and ling production is quick, from their point of view, I don't feel in danger either.
Once their lair finishes, they explode with a decent number of mutas rallied straight to my base and I have nothing to stop it.
I suppose I should time myself for a 6 gate warpgate timing push, but mutas will be out on the way there. They will kill your probes first, shutting down your warpgate reinforcements, and then mass speedling spinecrawler for defence, forcing me to gg.
Thanks to anyone who can offer some help. (cannot provide a replay at this time, but I'm at the level where following a build order is not a problem.)
One question on this, when you are in shark mode and you see spinecrawlers and lots of lings, what are you doing in response?
Incontrol can back me up on this, but he definitely advocates going blink stalkers vs mutas. So after seeing spines and lots of lings, even absent of any other scouting from an observer i'd feel pretty confident he was going mutas. From there i'd probably do just as you mention above and look for a 6 gate timing push and just put a ton of pressure to slow them down. You may even need to think about building a cannon or two in your mineral line just to stop them from killing your econ while they have you at bay with spines/lings.
From what I gathered, Shark mode is for when you are building up and not ready to attack. Once you have a force, you are in a relentless pressure/attacking mode. So in this scenario, you can shark until you get 6 gates but from there it's time to press hard because you have a window where he won't have a critical mass of mutas yet.
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On January 15 2011 05:43 Khaladas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 05:33 QTIP. wrote: Hey Khaladas, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Thanks to Incontrol as well.
Im a 2300 point master leaguer, and have been using this build quite frequently on the ladder. And for the most part its quite nice.
However, I feel like like there are quite a couple things zerg can do to throw off your build here.
1) gas steal - limits sentry production obviously - makes the "magical number" of 8 sentries nearly impossible to get by the 40ish supply mark where you should be expanding
2) block your cybernetics core wall in (delays early sentries, throws off your build) - delays sentry production - delays wall in, making ling run by more of a threat
more importantly a fast tech to mutas by the zerg player, even if you sense it coming by seeing many speedlings, can harass you in your base endlessly.
I've noticed that many of the zergs I lose to choose to do this. They will see my sentry heavy build, and instead of over-commiting with lings, they allow me to do my "shark mode" (taking towers, picking off overlords, poking/prodding in general) knowing that I cannot outright kill them myself.
There have been numerous games where they let me expand, and simply drone like crazy even when im running around the map taking towers, killing fresh creep tumors. They've got 3 spines up and ling production is quick, from their point of view, I don't feel in danger either.
Once their lair finishes, they explode with a decent number of mutas rallied straight to my base and I have nothing to stop it.
I suppose I should time myself for a 6 gate warpgate timing push, but mutas will be out on the way there. They will kill your probes first, shutting down your warpgate reinforcements, and then mass speedling spinecrawler for defence, forcing me to gg.
Thanks to anyone who can offer some help. (cannot provide a replay at this time, but I'm at the level where following a build order is not a problem.)
One question on this, when you are in shark mode and you see spinecrawlers and lots of lings, what are you doing in response? Incontrol can back me up on this, but he definitely advocates going blink stalkers vs mutas. So after seeing spines and lots of lings, even absent of any other scouting from an observer i'd feel pretty confident he was going mutas. From there i'd probably do just as you mention above and look for a 6 gate timing push and just put a ton of pressure to slow them down. You may even need to think about building a cannon or two in your mineral line just to stop them from killing your econ while they have you at bay with spines/lings. From what I gathered, Shark mode is for when you are building up and not ready to attack. Once you have a force, you are in a relentless pressure/attacking mode. So in this scenario, you can shark until you get 6 gates but from there it's time to press hard because you have a window where he won't have a critical mass of mutas yet.
Thanks Khala.
Yeah this seems like the most appropriate response. I suppose when I sense the mutas I should research blink asap. After all, my twilight council should be down anyway to ensure that my upgrades are on track.
One more thing, what do you think about the zerg gas steal early on? I feel like it just straight up kills the build by halving the number of sentries you can get.
Thanks again.
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On January 15 2011 05:33 QTIP. wrote: Hey Khaladas, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Thanks to Incontrol as well.
Im a 2300 point master leaguer, and have been using this build quite frequently on the ladder. And for the most part its quite nice.
However, I feel like like there are quite a couple things zerg can do to throw off your build here.
1) gas steal - limits sentry production obviously - makes the "magical number" of 8 sentries nearly impossible to get by the 40ish supply mark where you should be expanding
2) block your cybernetics core wall in (delays early sentries, throws off your build) - delays sentry production - delays wall in, making ling run by more of a threat
more importantly a fast tech to mutas by the zerg player, even if you sense it coming by seeing many speedlings, can harass you in your base endlessly.
I've noticed that many of the zergs I lose to choose to do this. They will see my sentry heavy build, and instead of over-commiting with lings, they allow me to do my "shark mode" (taking towers, picking off overlords, poking/prodding in general) knowing that I cannot outright kill them myself.
There have been numerous games where they let me expand, and simply drone like crazy even when im running around the map taking towers, killing fresh creep tumors. They've got 3 spines up and ling production is quick, from their point of view, I don't feel in danger either.
Once their lair finishes, they explode with a decent number of mutas rallied straight to my base and I have nothing to stop it.
I suppose I should time myself for a 6 gate warpgate timing push, but mutas will be out on the way there. They will kill your probes first, shutting down your warpgate reinforcements, and then mass speedling spinecrawler for defence, forcing me to gg.
Thanks to anyone who can offer some help. (cannot provide a replay at this time, but I'm at the level where following a build order is not a problem.)
1) Don't worry about it about gas steals. You don't need 8-9 sentries, it's not some magic number of sentries. I would say you need at least 5 or so however. 2) Bring 2 probes to make your core so you can quickly chase away any blocking drones.
2-base mutaling generally comes around 9-10 mins. Your 6-gate should hit just before that and it is just not possible to defend with just lings and crawlers on most maps (LT is an exception b/c of the easily defendable natural). So it sounds like you are doing something wrong here but w/ no replay I cannot offer any specific advice.
Also pushing with just a zealot and your sentries isn't a bad idea at all. You at least want to poke in and see if he has a bunch of crawlers up or roaches. If he's relying on mostly lings you can definitely do some damage with just your zealot and sentries, so don't be afraid to push.
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First of all, really helpful post... Also inControl seems like a really awsome guy whom you can learn from...
One thing about Khaladas' lack of aggression: I do think that it was partly due to him playing against incontrol, lol... I'm playing a match or two against a friend of mine who was like rank 2 diamond or something and now working up in master's league, and just because I knew who he was I always ended up playing worse against him that I play my average matches...
Incredible video though... I'd love to see more videos like this one!
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On January 15 2011 05:46 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 05:43 Khaladas wrote:On January 15 2011 05:33 QTIP. wrote: Hey Khaladas, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Thanks to Incontrol as well.
Im a 2300 point master leaguer, and have been using this build quite frequently on the ladder. And for the most part its quite nice.
However, I feel like like there are quite a couple things zerg can do to throw off your build here.
1) gas steal - limits sentry production obviously - makes the "magical number" of 8 sentries nearly impossible to get by the 40ish supply mark where you should be expanding
2) block your cybernetics core wall in (delays early sentries, throws off your build) - delays sentry production - delays wall in, making ling run by more of a threat
more importantly a fast tech to mutas by the zerg player, even if you sense it coming by seeing many speedlings, can harass you in your base endlessly.
I've noticed that many of the zergs I lose to choose to do this. They will see my sentry heavy build, and instead of over-commiting with lings, they allow me to do my "shark mode" (taking towers, picking off overlords, poking/prodding in general) knowing that I cannot outright kill them myself.
There have been numerous games where they let me expand, and simply drone like crazy even when im running around the map taking towers, killing fresh creep tumors. They've got 3 spines up and ling production is quick, from their point of view, I don't feel in danger either.
Once their lair finishes, they explode with a decent number of mutas rallied straight to my base and I have nothing to stop it.
I suppose I should time myself for a 6 gate warpgate timing push, but mutas will be out on the way there. They will kill your probes first, shutting down your warpgate reinforcements, and then mass speedling spinecrawler for defence, forcing me to gg.
Thanks to anyone who can offer some help. (cannot provide a replay at this time, but I'm at the level where following a build order is not a problem.)
One question on this, when you are in shark mode and you see spinecrawlers and lots of lings, what are you doing in response? Incontrol can back me up on this, but he definitely advocates going blink stalkers vs mutas. So after seeing spines and lots of lings, even absent of any other scouting from an observer i'd feel pretty confident he was going mutas. From there i'd probably do just as you mention above and look for a 6 gate timing push and just put a ton of pressure to slow them down. You may even need to think about building a cannon or two in your mineral line just to stop them from killing your econ while they have you at bay with spines/lings. From what I gathered, Shark mode is for when you are building up and not ready to attack. Once you have a force, you are in a relentless pressure/attacking mode. So in this scenario, you can shark until you get 6 gates but from there it's time to press hard because you have a window where he won't have a critical mass of mutas yet. Thanks Khala. Yeah this seems like the most appropriate response. I suppose when I sense the mutas I should research blink asap. After all, my twilight council should be down anyway to ensure that my upgrades are on track. One more thing, what do you think about the zerg gas steal early on? I feel like it just straight up kills the build by halving the number of sentries you can get. Thanks again.
Don't stress the gas steal. Know how far away his lings are from your base. In a lot of cases, you can afford to pull your first zealot from your ramp to kill the extractor. Otherwise, you can build 2 zealots at the start. Not a big deal. Also, if he's doing the build/cancel/build thing so that it never finishes, hit the extractor with a zealot plus a probe or 2. I believe a zealot and a probe DPS enough that you can kill the extractor while it's building. If 1 probe isn't enough, 2 certainly is.
Also, 8 sentries isn't a big deal. The resources just work out with the gas timing that you have 800 gas to burn through. If the 2nd gas is a little later, you'll wind up with 6 or so sentries and an extra zealot and stalker or something at the same timing. 6 sentries gives you plenty of forcefields to push around roaches and lings.
Also remember that there are 3-gate expand variants that run off of 1 gas that allow you much better aggression. Try going zealot sentry off of 1 gas and expanding behind a push. Zealot sentry is great for getting across the map because it's strong against speedlings. Then you can warp in stalkers at Z's base as you attack to deal with roaches and spines.
The goal isn't to get 8 sentries; it's to get your natural up on relatively even terms with Z while having enough sentries to combat roaches and lings. There's a lot of ways to get there.
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This is kind of off-topic but incontrols creep spread is sick.
About gas steal when I scout a pool 13 or sooner and they gas steal me, i throw down a forge, and a couple of cannons to expand sooner because roaches are coming, but not enough to break 2 well placed cannons a couple zealots and the 2 or 3 stalkers you can have off one gas. whatever you do, dont build a sentry off one gas or you auto-lose to early roaches.
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On January 15 2011 12:49 Jayrod wrote: This is kind of off-topic but incontrols creep spread is sick.
About gas steal when I scout a pool 13 or sooner and they gas steal me, i throw down a forge, and a couple of cannons to expand sooner because roaches are coming, but not enough to break 2 well placed cannons a couple zealots and the 2 or 3 stalkers you can have off one gas. whatever you do, dont build a sentry off one gas or you auto-lose to early roaches.
What's crazy is his main is Protoss and he's super strong with the other 2 off races.
This just in, Pro players are good.
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Gas steal: instead of doing 1 zealot 8 sentries, start with like 3 zealots and 6 sentries instead. See how incontrol delays his 4th gas until he's ready to use a robo? Just take it earlier to compensate for the gas steal and then you're back to 8 sentries again.
Drone blocking your core: either put it somewhere else or send a 2nd probe.
Muta: If you can scout the spine crawlers by sneaking a probe behind your shark mode, you can skip the robo and go 6 gates instead. It's almost impossible for a muta build to hold off 6 gate with +1 weapons.
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On January 15 2011 09:11 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 05:46 QTIP. wrote:On January 15 2011 05:43 Khaladas wrote:On January 15 2011 05:33 QTIP. wrote: Hey Khaladas, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Thanks to Incontrol as well.
Im a 2300 point master leaguer, and have been using this build quite frequently on the ladder. And for the most part its quite nice.
However, I feel like like there are quite a couple things zerg can do to throw off your build here.
1) gas steal - limits sentry production obviously - makes the "magical number" of 8 sentries nearly impossible to get by the 40ish supply mark where you should be expanding
2) block your cybernetics core wall in (delays early sentries, throws off your build) - delays sentry production - delays wall in, making ling run by more of a threat
more importantly a fast tech to mutas by the zerg player, even if you sense it coming by seeing many speedlings, can harass you in your base endlessly.
I've noticed that many of the zergs I lose to choose to do this. They will see my sentry heavy build, and instead of over-commiting with lings, they allow me to do my "shark mode" (taking towers, picking off overlords, poking/prodding in general) knowing that I cannot outright kill them myself.
There have been numerous games where they let me expand, and simply drone like crazy even when im running around the map taking towers, killing fresh creep tumors. They've got 3 spines up and ling production is quick, from their point of view, I don't feel in danger either.
Once their lair finishes, they explode with a decent number of mutas rallied straight to my base and I have nothing to stop it.
I suppose I should time myself for a 6 gate warpgate timing push, but mutas will be out on the way there. They will kill your probes first, shutting down your warpgate reinforcements, and then mass speedling spinecrawler for defence, forcing me to gg.
Thanks to anyone who can offer some help. (cannot provide a replay at this time, but I'm at the level where following a build order is not a problem.)
One question on this, when you are in shark mode and you see spinecrawlers and lots of lings, what are you doing in response? Incontrol can back me up on this, but he definitely advocates going blink stalkers vs mutas. So after seeing spines and lots of lings, even absent of any other scouting from an observer i'd feel pretty confident he was going mutas. From there i'd probably do just as you mention above and look for a 6 gate timing push and just put a ton of pressure to slow them down. You may even need to think about building a cannon or two in your mineral line just to stop them from killing your econ while they have you at bay with spines/lings. From what I gathered, Shark mode is for when you are building up and not ready to attack. Once you have a force, you are in a relentless pressure/attacking mode. So in this scenario, you can shark until you get 6 gates but from there it's time to press hard because you have a window where he won't have a critical mass of mutas yet. Thanks Khala. Yeah this seems like the most appropriate response. I suppose when I sense the mutas I should research blink asap. After all, my twilight council should be down anyway to ensure that my upgrades are on track. One more thing, what do you think about the zerg gas steal early on? I feel like it just straight up kills the build by halving the number of sentries you can get. Thanks again. Don't stress the gas steal. Know how far away his lings are from your base. In a lot of cases, you can afford to pull your first zealot from your ramp to kill the extractor. Otherwise, you can build 2 zealots at the start. Not a big deal. Also, if he's doing the build/cancel/build thing so that it never finishes, hit the extractor with a zealot plus a probe or 2. I believe a zealot and a probe DPS enough that you can kill the extractor while it's building. If 1 probe isn't enough, 2 certainly is. Also, 8 sentries isn't a big deal. The resources just work out with the gas timing that you have 800 gas to burn through. If the 2nd gas is a little later, you'll wind up with 6 or so sentries and an extra zealot and stalker or something at the same timing. 6 sentries gives you plenty of forcefields to push around roaches and lings. Also remember that there are 3-gate expand variants that run off of 1 gas that allow you much better aggression. Try going zealot sentry off of 1 gas and expanding behind a push. Zealot sentry is great for getting across the map because it's strong against speedlings. Then you can warp in stalkers at Z's base as you attack to deal with roaches and spines. The goal isn't to get 8 sentries; it's to get your natural up on relatively even terms with Z while having enough sentries to combat roaches and lings. There's a lot of ways to get there.
I like this point kcdc. Thanks!
I definitely need to look at being a little more flexible and realizing that 8 sentries isn't the do-or-die of this strategy.
thanks to all those who replied to my post as well.
All very useful information. ^^
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I had a lesson with InControl yesterday on PvT, and I can't explain how helpful it was. I've played one PvT on ladder since then, and I ROLLED him. Where I had 4 bases on his 2, thanks InControl!
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More people should do this! This is SO helpful! Thanks a lot man.
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I'm seeing definite results just from watching this video ty so much and thank you for answering my questions earlier. My first two craft cups I lost to two mid diamond zergs in the first round but now today I took out a master league zerg in the first round quite convincingly =D.
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On January 15 2011 14:48 L1F3 wrote: I had a lesson with InControl yesterday on PvT, and I can't explain how helpful it was. I've played one PvT on ladder since then, and I ROLLED him. Where I had 4 bases on his 2, thanks InControl!
Did you record it? :D
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This roach/speedling all-in gives me a lot of trouble when I use this build... just got eliminated from the TeamSpeak TL SC2 Open because of it.
Any idea how to see it coming and react? I actually got very lucky that I didn't go into shark mode when it hit, or I would've lost all my units away from my cannon. I was able to stabilize eventually, but my tech was severely delayed and I couldn't catch up after that.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 16 2011 06:55 iamke55 wrote:This roach/speedling all-in gives me a lot of trouble when I use this build... just got eliminated from the TeamSpeak TL SC2 Open because of it. Any idea how to see it coming and react? I actually got very lucky that I didn't go into shark mode when it hit, or I would've lost all my units away from my cannon. I was able to stabilize eventually, but my tech was severely delayed and I couldn't catch up after that.
The only way to scout it is if you have your inital scouting probe alive on the map. You were caught off position and lost a lot of sentires because of it. Also, you have to zone the roaches out of range of the cannon so they can't hit it.
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Thank you so much to both Khaladas and iNControl.
I'm only a newly silver level player but the tips in this video have helped me feel so much more confident in my PvZ which has always been my most dreaded matchup. Since seeing this I've been making much more use of sentries and stopped going so cannon heavy. I've also started getting blink upgrade for stalkers and no longer fear muta so much.
Before seeing this vid I'd never have considered paying for tutorials but now I've seen what actually goes on I think the benefit would be huge.
Anyone know if iNcontrol has an EU account for lessons or is it NA only?
Thanks again to Khaladas and of course the man himself.
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Hi ThePinkNinja, I asked iNcontrol aswell for the coaching sessions, he only has a NA account. The one thing u can do is like livestream ur play while he watch ur livestream and gives tips on skype
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Hiya xzumiex, thanks for that. It's a shame but thought that would be the case.
Hmm don't fancy the livestream route so much, will just have to make do without I guess
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Thanks for sharing this! I am watching right now. I had a coaching session with him and it was great, but it's nice to have a refresher.
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Amazing thanks so much for sharing Khaladas
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
hi, i have been watching TLOpen and i ear Chill said that 4 colo are the magic number why? is this the safe number to move out? few days ago i ear that 9 sentries PvZ are the magic number why? is this the safe number to not be overrun?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 16 2011 22:49 ThePinkNinja wrote:Hiya xzumiex, thanks for that. It's a shame but thought that would be the case. Hmm don't fancy the livestream route so much, will just have to make do without I guess
I coach on EU now.
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U do? great mate :D what to do when i want a session?
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On January 06 2011 14:43 .kv wrote: yeah PvZ is my worst MU as well...only efficient build I know is the Forge FE into 5 gate timing attack with +1 attacks
other than that, I need to figure out another way to beat Zerg
You can't be serious.......
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How much do lessons go for?
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On January 17 2011 05:21 Garth wrote: How much do lessons go for?
I believe he charges $50 an hour, check out gosucoaching.com for more info.
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Is there any chance anyone could upload this VOD to any other filesharing service like mediafire? easyshare wont let me download for some reason. Thanks again for sharing this khaladas! hope someone reuploads this, i really need help pvz
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Thanks very much to the OP for posting; I've been helped alot by watching this coaching session. I've gone from feeling helpless at executing anything but void ray all-ins at PvZ to settling into what I feel is a much more stable 3 warpgate opening. Incontrol's build seems very solid. However, I've felt kind of naked at points with regard to roaming around in "shark mode" while executing this strategy.
If any of you saw the Metalopolis or LT games tonight between NesTea and choyafou in the GSL RO8, NesTea busted out some speedlord doom drops in the main with hydralisks that viciously punished Choya for not having enough units (stargate opening). I realize that good scouting is key, but this seems like it would absolutely cripple a Protoss who does have units but whose army is outside the base engaging in "shark mode," or else initiate a base trade, which is pretty unstable. Choya tried to use FFs to block his ramp, but of course, force fields have little effect on a doom drop, so those sentries suddenly become little more than moderate damage-dealing snowglobes.
Have any of you had this type of Zerg play attempted against you while trying this style or have and/or have a replay of it?
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Ya iamke ive been losing to it too, they just stop making drones at some point and just all in off 2 base. Their economy is a one base economy but they have a ton of larva. Basically, the advice my friend gave who is quite good... is that you need to constantly scout to see if theyre cutting workers and pumping units. observer is obviously one way but that always an option, and hallucinated phoenix could probably do good as well im guessing. I suck vs zerg though thats just the advice he gave me against this specific build. I feel zerg has a distinct advantage in this matchup on most maps. Its annoying becuase in your replay for instance he goes all in basically just to barely kill that nexus... then while you rebuild it, he takes his 3rd and one larva cycle puts him on the exact same amount of workers as you. Really frustrating to watch, my heart goes out to you and anyone else who gets "all-in'd" by a race that can recover over a 25 second period
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incontrol is a really good teacher, thanks for this
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
On January 17 2011 02:52 2GRe-Play- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +hi, i have been watching TLOpen and i ear Chill said that 4 colo are the magic number why? is this the safe number to move out? few days ago i ear that 9 sentries PvZ are the magic number why? is this the safe number to not be overrun?
Can someone tell me this? sorry to bump it
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 17 2011 20:18 Snaphoo wrote: Thanks very much to the OP for posting; I've been helped alot by watching this coaching session. I've gone from feeling helpless at executing anything but void ray all-ins at PvZ to settling into what I feel is a much more stable 3 warpgate opening. Incontrol's build seems very solid. However, I've felt kind of naked at points with regard to roaming around in "shark mode" while executing this strategy.
If any of you saw the Metalopolis or LT games tonight between NesTea and choyafou in the GSL RO8, NesTea busted out some speedlord doom drops in the main with hydralisks that viciously punished Choya for not having enough units (stargate opening). I realize that good scouting is key, but this seems like it would absolutely cripple a Protoss who does have units but whose army is outside the base engaging in "shark mode," or else initiate a base trade, which is pretty unstable. Choya tried to use FFs to block his ramp, but of course, force fields have little effect on a doom drop, so those sentries suddenly become little more than moderate damage-dealing snowglobes.
Have any of you had this type of Zerg play attempted against you while trying this style or have and/or have a replay of it?
If you are constantly moving around and in "shark mode" wouldn't you notice his entire army being picked up in overlords? The answer is YES, yes you would. Shark Mode uniquely gives you a better chance at countering this style.
It isn't like you can tell me the alternative is a better play style over all... sitting at home and waiting for drop style? No. Actively pursuing your opponent and pressuring them ALSO makes them feel a doom drop is less productive but even if they get there with their decision making you should pick up on it asap.
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have you seen much of this style used on the na server inc? i havent been able to play much this week/weekend so i dono if all the zergs are doing this now
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Nah. I don't think dropping hydras is anything revolutionary or good. I am sure it abuses air play fairly well since if you just a-move towards the drop your air stuff gets there first.. also hydra high dps allows them to maximize damage fast.
But no I haven't seen it on the NA server much.
I find baneling drops on your army/mineral lines to be a better tactic for the zerg and harder to execute.
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yea i'm thinking it smashes the crap out of stargate builds specifically since your army gets its strength from positioning and cannons and the drop circumvents that.. i don't see it as a huge threat to typical expo 4gate/robo/forge openings though
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Hey i have been doing this 3 gate expand and getting blink stalkers from twilight councel first before robotics bay. Being able to bling stalkers allows for much more aggression in the beginning of midgame.
I was wondering if anyone thought that high templar tech would be a good transition after blink stalkers. I would need to make a robo bay for observers so i dont know if going collosis would be better.
I kinda find based on the games i have been playing that sticking with blink stalkers and upgrading them alot has been winning me games. Could that be a solid good option too?
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On January 19 2011 02:19 terran151 wrote: Hey i have been doing this 3 gate expand and getting blink stalkers from twilight councel first before robotics bay. Being able to bling stalkers allows for much more aggression in the beginning of midgame.
I was wondering if anyone thought that high templar tech would be a good transition after blink stalkers. I would need to make a robo bay for observers so i dont know if going collosis would be better.
I kinda find based on the games i have been playing that sticking with blink stalkers and upgrading them alot has been winning me games. Could that be a solid good option too?
this isn't a bad way to play at all. however, if you don't get a robo down quickly and instead opt for council/ht tech, you don't really have a strong answer to roaches. blink is extremely effective against a player opening spire or even roach/hydra if you don't fall too far behind in macro and are quite adept at blink micro. Roaches can get pretty obnoxious if you don't have a robo backbone to your army.. even if you have enough sentries to ff them indefinitely.. you just.. can't.. kill them O_O
There are some players that essentially do what you are doing but they use their robo for immortals as well to deal with roaches and storm hydra/muta. I don't really have a lot of experience using this style, however so I can't offer you too much help with that. That would be something like a zealot/sentry/immortal/ht army instead of a stalker/sentry/colo army. I prefer the latter style but am sure the other has its strengths as well
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This question is specifically for incontrol, but I understand if you don't have time to answer or this threads been exhausted
How true is it that when you're in "shark mode" theyre actually building units and not drones? How about when they've built all the drones they're going to build? I find that some of the good zergs I play against have a really good feel for whether or not an attack is actually coming and I notice them still droning and maybe making just 1 or 2 units and 4 drones for instance when I feint pressure. Do I just assume they're droning up? Am I focused more on the army they show when I poke forward or the actual drone count itself? On a map like XnC am I pushing all the way up to their natural to see what army they have or do I assume theyre making the army when they see me running around picking off OL's and taking towers?
Quite Ironically, I'm having the opposite trouble with this build... its that I end up with 40 + probes and find out later he stopped droning at 25 and just roach/ling all-ins me. I'm guessing thats just scouting error to not see him massing up an army
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Thank you OP and iNcontrol for the free lesson! Maybe a free terran lesson to come!?
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Thanks so much for this! I've gone 13-2 in PvZ in the last few days with this playstyle
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On January 19 2011 05:00 Jayrod wrote: This question is specifically for incontrol, but I understand if you don't have time to answer or this threads been exhausted
How true is it that when you're in "shark mode" theyre actually building units and not drones? How about when they've built all the drones they're going to build? I find that some of the good zergs I play against have a really good feel for whether or not an attack is actually coming and I notice them still droning and maybe making just 1 or 2 units and 4 drones for instance when I feint pressure. Do I just assume they're droning up? Am I focused more on the army they show when I poke forward or the actual drone count itself? On a map like XnC am I pushing all the way up to their natural to see what army they have or do I assume theyre making the army when they see me running around picking off OL's and taking towers?
Quite Ironically, I'm having the opposite trouble with this build... its that I end up with 40 + probes and find out later he stopped droning at 25 and just roach/ling all-ins me. I'm guessing thats just scouting error to not see him massing up an army
I'm have lost a couple times today to this, and after looking at it i'm not at all sure how to stop it. Maybe a sneaky probe could have scouted it, i don't know.
Maybe another cannon at the main? Maybe instead of a 4th gate after your nexus, you drop a robo and get an obs out so you can see what he's doing, and you may have time to get an immortal out before their first push?
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United States8476 Posts
On January 19 2011 05:00 Jayrod wrote: This question is specifically for incontrol, but I understand if you don't have time to answer or this threads been exhausted
How true is it that when you're in "shark mode" theyre actually building units and not drones? How about when they've built all the drones they're going to build? I find that some of the good zergs I play against have a really good feel for whether or not an attack is actually coming and I notice them still droning and maybe making just 1 or 2 units and 4 drones for instance when I feint pressure. Do I just assume they're droning up? Am I focused more on the army they show when I poke forward or the actual drone count itself? On a map like XnC am I pushing all the way up to their natural to see what army they have or do I assume theyre making the army when they see me running around picking off OL's and taking towers?
Quite Ironically, I'm having the opposite trouble with this build... its that I end up with 40 + probes and find out later he stopped droning at 25 and just roach/ling all-ins me. I'm guessing thats just scouting error to not see him massing up an army
My solution to this is to get hallucination and scout with that. Once you scout the roach allin, throw up cannons and a robo with your 3 gateways. Also, don't take all 4 of your gas immediately, as you need minerals for cannons.
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On January 20 2011 09:39 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 05:00 Jayrod wrote: This question is specifically for incontrol, but I understand if you don't have time to answer or this threads been exhausted
How true is it that when you're in "shark mode" theyre actually building units and not drones? How about when they've built all the drones they're going to build? I find that some of the good zergs I play against have a really good feel for whether or not an attack is actually coming and I notice them still droning and maybe making just 1 or 2 units and 4 drones for instance when I feint pressure. Do I just assume they're droning up? Am I focused more on the army they show when I poke forward or the actual drone count itself? On a map like XnC am I pushing all the way up to their natural to see what army they have or do I assume theyre making the army when they see me running around picking off OL's and taking towers?
Quite Ironically, I'm having the opposite trouble with this build... its that I end up with 40 + probes and find out later he stopped droning at 25 and just roach/ling all-ins me. I'm guessing thats just scouting error to not see him massing up an army My solution to this is to get hallucination and scout with that. Once you scout the roach allin, throw up cannons and a robo with your 3 gateways. Also, don't take all 4 of your gas immediately, as you need minerals for cannons.
Sounds like a decent plan.
At what point do you get hallucinate? Before robo I assume or you could just use an obs ( though they move much slower than hallucinated phoenix )
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Khaladas, thanks very much for sharing this video I found it very helpful. I do have one question though. One problem, I have with the build is that it is very reliant on sentries for defense. Today on Tyler's stream he played a zerg who attacked him head on on Xelnaga with mass zerglings early on. The sentries allowed for an initial defense with force fields however, the Zerg drew back and then immediately afterwards dropped onto the main of Tyler forcing the gg. This occurred significantly before "shark mode" would have kicked in.
Have you encountered a build similar / do you know how you would counter this if it occurred with the sentry heavy early build?
Also, I apologize that I don't have the video but it hasn't been uploaded to tyler's stream yet, when it is I will link to it.
/Edit Unlike the previous post this wasn't a doom drop style play.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 20 2011 11:26 Khaladas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 09:39 4kmonk wrote:On January 19 2011 05:00 Jayrod wrote: This question is specifically for incontrol, but I understand if you don't have time to answer or this threads been exhausted
How true is it that when you're in "shark mode" theyre actually building units and not drones? How about when they've built all the drones they're going to build? I find that some of the good zergs I play against have a really good feel for whether or not an attack is actually coming and I notice them still droning and maybe making just 1 or 2 units and 4 drones for instance when I feint pressure. Do I just assume they're droning up? Am I focused more on the army they show when I poke forward or the actual drone count itself? On a map like XnC am I pushing all the way up to their natural to see what army they have or do I assume theyre making the army when they see me running around picking off OL's and taking towers?
Quite Ironically, I'm having the opposite trouble with this build... its that I end up with 40 + probes and find out later he stopped droning at 25 and just roach/ling all-ins me. I'm guessing thats just scouting error to not see him massing up an army My solution to this is to get hallucination and scout with that. Once you scout the roach allin, throw up cannons and a robo with your 3 gateways. Also, don't take all 4 of your gas immediately, as you need minerals for cannons. Sounds like a decent plan. At what point do you get hallucinate? Before robo I assume or you could just use an obs ( though they move much slower than hallucinated phoenix )
After my 6th sentry. I only build a robo if my pokes indicate roach/hydra or my pheonix scout those units or those corresponding buildings.
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On January 20 2011 13:02 hobo1 wrote: Khaladas, thanks very much for sharing this video I found it very helpful. I do have one question though. One problem, I have with the build is that it is very reliant on sentries for defense. Today on Tyler's stream he played a zerg who attacked him head on on Xelnaga with mass zerglings early on. The sentries allowed for an initial defense with force fields however, the Zerg drew back and then immediately afterwards dropped onto the main of Tyler forcing the gg. This occurred significantly before "shark mode" would have kicked in.
Have you encountered a build similar / do you know how you would counter this if it occurred with the sentry heavy early build?
Also, I apologize that I don't have the video but it hasn't been uploaded to tyler's stream yet, when it is I will link to it.
/Edit Unlike the previous post this wasn't a doom drop style play.
I am going to play around with researching hallucinate and get some really solid scouting information before dropping my nexus. I think that would probably give you the info you need to defend properly.
I'm actually thinking of doing this in all 3 matchups since scouting so important at around the 6-10 minute mark, yet extremely difficult to pull off with just a probe. I find myself making a lot of incorrect assumptions by just using a probe to scout since the info is often very incomplete.
Is anyone else finding this to be the case or are you just better than I am at predicting what the opponent is doing with probe scouting?
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Hey thanks for sharing this man, it was really interesting. I actually play Terran but I watched the whole vid since inControl is a really good teacher and has some great insights into the game. He also has a very good use of English (not many people use the word dirth anymore, but it's a great word).
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On January 16 2011 06:51 Khaladas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 14:48 L1F3 wrote: I had a lesson with InControl yesterday on PvT, and I can't explain how helpful it was. I've played one PvT on ladder since then, and I ROLLED him. Where I had 4 bases on his 2, thanks InControl! Did you record it? :D
I did, but it's in pieces, and I can't find somewhere to upload it. If someone could upload it for me, I would ask InControl and put it together. BTW, it's a 2 hour lesson (cut off at the end cause my comp was spazzing out), focusing on PvT. I'm a plat protoss playing diamond players, and I USED to 4 gate against Terrans, cause I didn't understand the matchup at all. It was basically focusing on expansion timing, unit composition, and when to attack, defend, etc. It was a very similar thing to this lesson actually.
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On January 23 2011 05:43 L1F3 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 06:51 Khaladas wrote:On January 15 2011 14:48 L1F3 wrote: I had a lesson with InControl yesterday on PvT, and I can't explain how helpful it was. I've played one PvT on ladder since then, and I ROLLED him. Where I had 4 bases on his 2, thanks InControl! Did you record it? :D I did, but it's in pieces, and I can't find somewhere to upload it. If someone could upload it for me, I would ask InControl and put it together. BTW, it's a 2 hour lesson (cut off at the end cause my comp was spazzing out), focusing on PvT. I'm a plat protoss playing diamond players, and I USED to 4 gate against Terrans, cause I didn't understand the matchup at all. It was basically focusing on expansion timing, unit composition, and when to attack, defend, etc. It was a very similar thing to this lesson actually.
I'd be happy to piece it together for you and upload it, but we need to find some way to get me the files.
A couple options, you can sign up for Dropbox, with that I think you get 1GB free, whilch should be plenty of space.
www.easyshare.com gives you 5gb, though it's a bit obnoxious with ads, at least you could get the files to me.
I use mediafire, but they only allow 200mb for the free version, if you are willing to pay $9 a month you can get like 500gb or something crazy ( thats what I did ).
PM me if you want and I can help put it together.
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I'll upload that now.
Anyway, I had this game with my friend yesterday, and it bothered me. Basically, he did a roach ling all-in, right around the time I moved out in shark mode, in the middle of the Xel'naga caverns map. If anyone can give me some advice, I would greatly appreciate it.
Here's the rep:
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I really like the idea of 'shark mode' to new players. It basically sums up exactly what you're supposed to be doing in two words. One thing I don't like is getting 8-9 sentries, I feel it delays the time you can go into 'shark mode' by too much. I think pressuring earlier is always better and I don't think waiting until 10 minutes is ideal. A lot of the time if you don't wait for 8-9 sentries and move to stalker zealot a little quicker on 3 gates, you can do serious damage very early or worst case back off and regroup as you expo.
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So here's the upload link for the Mpeg4 file, i'm including it here so that people who really want to see it now, can see it, and it can later be uploaded to own3d.tv. So here it is: Incontrol PvT
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Id really like some help with my rep, my initial thoughts are to not even enter "shark mode". Cause this stuff is all my friend can seem to do. But isn't that bad? How should I know he's doing these all-ins? Is there a warning sign?
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On January 23 2011 16:04 L1F3 wrote:So here's the upload link for the Mpeg4 file, i'm including it here so that people who really want to see it now, can see it, and it can later be uploaded to own3d.tv. So here it is: Incontrol PvT Holy crap this VOD was helpful, thanks man!
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Does anyone know if anyone else has posted VOD's of their coaching sessiosn with Incontrol or anyone else?
I think they're a huge help, and assist in selecting a coach that works best for the way you learn the game.
I found a few key differences between incontrol and response and just wanted to get a better feel for other coaching styles before forking over $50-$100.
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Yeah, having some pretty big trouble with these roach all-ins using this build.
While it's been helpful to really focus my mind on macro macro macro mode, I feel the build needs work before I can reliably use this in Silver league. Problem is that Z 1base roach all-ins more often than not, which leaves me with a robo that's too late to defend with Immortals, a couple of sentries that can only hold my main base (so have to cancel expo if this happens), and that's when the money starts piling up.
With no really effective way to break out of my base and expand until two minutes later, I'm giving Zerg a free expansion and two-minute powerdroning session, all the while stockpiling minerals that I can't spend yet.
Problem is mostly that, on my level, the only way to really scout is looking directly at their base. Looking at their army tells you next to nothing, since opponents will quite often go into very bizarre unit compositions and tech switches.
So - let's say I scout that even at 20 food, the Z hasn't expanded yet. By this time, he's probably planted his Warren. How do I transition from there? :/ Seems from that point on, the Zerg is pressuring my with their potential all-in instead of me doing that to them in shark mode.
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can someone re-host this somewhere better
this download is taking forever
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not to be negative or sound like an asshole, but for a mid to high masters is this a valuable watch? I'm just curious cause its 2 hours long and I'm not sure if a lot of the coaching is based on improving mechanics or whatever or if there is really in depth stuff as far as strategy as well.
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On January 27 2011 16:20 Monk wrote: not to be negative or sound like an asshole, but for a mid to high masters is this a valuable watch? I'm just curious cause its 2 hours long and I'm not sure if a lot of the coaching is based on improving mechanics or whatever or if there is really in depth stuff as far as strategy as well.
I'd say it's worth it in a way. I watched it and I'd say that yeah there's some more obvious things in there, but it's always good to hear some of those things get reinforced too. I'd just skip through them playing the first game and get to the replay analysis.
On a sidenote, very impressed with inconrol's coaching. Nice job man
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Updated the replay and download link to use MediaFire, which seems to work better for everyone.
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On January 27 2011 07:28 DarQraven wrote: Yeah, having some pretty big trouble with these roach all-ins using this build.
While it's been helpful to really focus my mind on macro macro macro mode, I feel the build needs work before I can reliably use this in Silver league.
You should be scouting the roach all-in and adapting the build. Re-watch how iNcontroL scouts. He looks for the pool, then the gas, then delays the expansion. If that expansion doesn't happen...you need to modify your build. Send the probe in the base and look for lings or the Roach Warren. If the pool isn't building speed and you see the Roach Warren...get a cannon at your wall and build some stalkers. Only expand AFTER you defeat the push. The Zerg will be WAY behind.
You can't take a build and do the exact same thing every game, you need to adapt to what information you pull out of your opponent.
In silver league, the Zerg will also have a delayed push and will likely not be macroing at home while he is doing it. Take this to your advantage and keep making probes and pylons. When you beat the attack and expand, you will be able to saturate very quickly, and get a robo up really fast.
Also note that the initial sentries can be used to continiously block your ramp for a long time...Z will not be able to get around your force fields until burrow...and a P on one base is stronger than a Z on one base. Especially if only one hatch is present.
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I'm watching the video now. Thanks. But man, that nervous needless clicking/buttonbashing is annoying to hear.
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On February 20 2011 04:10 Canyarion wrote:I'm watching the video now. Thanks. But man, that nervous needless clicking/buttonbashing is annoying to hear.
They are both using mechanical keyboards, so you're hearing every click. It's not buttonbashing.
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I meant the rediculous high apm while nothing is happening. I guess a lot of players are too nervous to stay calm during their matches. =)
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Have you never played Brood War?
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Not online.
I know that apm helps, but I also know it's possible to have a low apm when you don't need a lot of actions. I'm high diamond and my average apm is around 50.
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Bumping this since it's very useful.
The first mediafire link doesn't work but at least the stream does!
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Hey Khaladas,
First off, thanks for sharing your coaching session.
I'm at the 20 minute mark of your first game, and just wanted to mention a few things that I noticed, before continuing to watch the rest of it.
- I might have missed it, but it didn't look like you Chrono'd your warp gates. - You need to scout a lot more. You had the early probe in his base, and a obs. But the obs pretty much stayed in his expo, and you didn't view what he had. - Right now you have one massive control group with all of your units. - Pylons, pylons, pylons. There were a few times (76 units) that you were supplied blocked. - Move out. You seemed to mostly so far stayed at your bases. You did start to move out, but then pulled back. After that, you can see on your mini map that he had creep at both golds (didn't notice if he had a base at either one of them or both).
In a nutshell, you had no idea where he was, or what he was going for. For all you know he could of been massing up Broodlords + Corruptors and maybe some Ultras. You should use more obs out on the field, and should be harassing him, forcing him to tech switch, and limiting the number of bases he has.
Now back to the rest of the video.
Once again, thanks.
Carl J
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What is the price for a session with incontrol? I don't know if i'm allowed to ask this, ignore the question if you can't say. I'm thinking to take a couple of lessons myself.
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On March 25 2011 07:03 LeCruci wrote: What is the price for a session with incontrol? I don't know if i'm allowed to ask this, ignore the question if you can't say. I'm thinking to take a couple of lessons myself.
I checked yesterday on gosucoaching and it was like $100. I assume that's per hour?
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thanks for posting incontrol ftw! :D
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This has a few good points in it but is a little out of date now. I think this was made about 2-3 patches ago so everyone please keep this in mind when you watch the vids =D
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Thanks very much, jsut switched to tosss so i need as much help as i can get!
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On March 25 2011 07:03 LeCruci wrote: What is the price for a session with incontrol? I don't know if i'm allowed to ask this, ignore the question if you can't say. I'm thinking to take a couple of lessons myself.
$80 link
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On June 09 2011 10:49 schaf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 07:03 LeCruci wrote: What is the price for a session with incontrol? I don't know if i'm allowed to ask this, ignore the question if you can't say. I'm thinking to take a couple of lessons myself. $80 link
Solid idea to bump the thread for that.
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