At high levels, the current PvP metagame revolves around 2 conflicting goals:
(1) invest as much gas as possible into tech (read: collosi); and (2) defend the 4-gate timing attack.
A properly executed 4-gate will kill a great number of potential openings, so almost nobody at high levels of play attempts to expand or tech quickly. A lot of very good players believe that the best way to defend an all-in 4 gate is to build 4 gateways yourself and to get a few extra probes and a second assimilator.
This defensive 4 gate is commonly referred to as an "eco 4-gate" and is a very common build at high levels because it allows you to get both gas geysers while defending a 4-gate. Players will typically follow this up by teching toward collosi (or sometimes blink). This is a conservative, safe build, but it's also somewhat wasteful because you wind up building 2 gateways that will never be used (unless the opponent does 4-gate), and you have to invest early gas into stalkers and sentries in order to be safe.
I've worked out a 2-gate robo opening using 1 gas that is best thought of as an alternative to the eco 4-gate. Like the eco 4-gate, this opening is capable of defending an optimal 6 minute 4-gate, and is also reasonably strong against other common PvP builds.
9 pylon (1st chronoboost on 11th probe) 13 gate (scout with probe that builds gateway) 13 gas (will have to cut probe production for about 1 second here. chronoboost immediately after starting next probe) 15 pylon core @ 100% gate zealot @100 minerals stalker and warpgate research @ 100% core (chronoboost both gateway and core at this point. this allows you to get your stalker earlier to deny scouting and makes it look like a 4 gate) robo ASAP when you can deny scouting (chrono the stalker out and start the robo out of the probe's vision if it stays in your base to be hunted down by your stalker. you need an immortal by 6 minutes and there aren't many seconds to spare) pylon robo @ or before 100% stalker (see above regarding timing) zealot @ 100 minerals 2nd gateway pylon immortal zealot @100% warpgate research, 2 more zealots and another immortal
Basically, it's gate-robo-gate with a slightly earlier gas to get the immortal earlier, 1 stalker to deny scouting, and as many zealots as you can afford.
You will spend your first 2 chronoboosts on your nexus, a chronoboost on your stalker, 2 chronoboosts on WG research, and 2 on your first immortal. This leaves you with 5 zealots, 1 stalker and 1 immortal at the 6 minute timing where an all-in 4-gate can have 1 zealot and 6 stalkers. If they attack now, it should be very easy to hold. Just micro your immortal and stalker to keep them alive and shooting at stalkers.
If your opponent waits for a round of zealots before attacking, you'll have time for 2 more zealots and most of a 2nd immortal. Back up and let him hit a building for a few seconds and then engage as your 2nd immortal finishes. 7 zealots, 2 immortals and a stalker beats 5 zealots and 6 stalkers. Remember to fight in an open area as far away from his pylon as possible and to keep your immortals moving away from zealots and shooting stalkers.
Building placement is important, as you don't want to lose a pylon at this point. Your ramp will be his territory, so keep your buildings back and put your stronger buildings in front of your pylons. Keep microing your immortals and chronoboosting your production facilities. You're reinforcing with stronger units, so you'll win.
Against tech builds, this opening does decently. You'll want to get your second gas ASAP, so send a scouting probe before a 4-gate would hit to check for signs of a 4-gate. If you don't see them, take your second gas.
Compared to an eco 4-gate, you'll mine a little less gas, but you won't have wasted gas on sentries and stalkers which suck in a collosus battle. You'll also have your robo up earlier than an eco 4-gate would, and you'll have saved 300 minerals that would have been wasted on unused gateways.
This opening is not as strong as an eco 4-gate against stargate openings, may be weaker against fast expand builds (tho you can still kill them--get a warp prism to immortal drop the main and then forcefield his army in his main while you kill the expo), and is better than an eco 4-gate against DT rushes.
Keep in mind that a key to this opening's success is that it looks like a 4-gate. If your opponent feels safe and fast expands or techs straight to collosi, you may fall behind.
Also, I should include a hat tip to Liquid'Tyler from whom I got the idea for this build. He mentioned in his stream that he had a robo opening that can defend 4-gate on Scrap Station, and that zealot-immortal is really sweet against 4-gate after they've broken your ramp. This might be similar to the build Tyler referred to and it might not be similar, but this one does indeed hold 4-gate on Scrap Station.
Edit:
I've settled on a transition against tech builds that I think is strong, but relies on active scouting. If the 4 gate doesn't come, I've been expanding after my 1st or 2nd immortal depending on what I scout. If I see a significant number of stalkers that suggests blink, I'll obviously wait for the 2nd immortal. If I see sentries, I'll expand faster. If I see a lot of gateway units suggesting he was defensively 4 gating, I won't expand. If my opponent stays on 1 base, I stay with immortals+gateways and grab a warp prism to drop my immos on the collosi. This seems like a really good tactic because 1 base collosi doesn't have gas for stalkers, so the warp prism flies freely. If my opponent techs collosi and then counter-expands, I respond by teching collosi. He might have an extra collosus or two, but I have a better econ with more support units. It seems to work out fine. I just ran into 3 PvP's in a row in ladder, so I'll upload them.
The first and third make it to the expansion stage. The second is an easy win vs a 4 gate.
If you're wondering what to do against an opponent that expands and then tries to build up his colossus count instead of attacking, it turns out that you have a strong attack timing shortly after his expansion completes.
If you don't like PvP, seriously, try this out. Popping immortals in and out of a warp prism onto colossi might be the most fun micro in the game.
Really interesting build. Kinda funny how funky Starcraft logic is sometimes. 2gate robo has a hard time holding off 4gate rush? What's the solution? 1gate robo. thanks for posting this.
atm i'm @ 2.7k masters and i've been doing this some time now, but i am pretty bad so i can't say if it is indeed working for pro's. i can say it works against those poorly executed 4gates people on the ladder throw at me.
I know blink openers at least in NA have fallen out of favor for the most part. Have you had a chance to try this vs a blink opener? If one of the reps is a blink opener im sorry, but im unable to view the replays at this time
On February 09 2011 04:38 Jayrod wrote: I know blink openers at least in NA have fallen out of favor for the most part. Have you had a chance to try this vs a blink opener? If one of the reps is a blink opener im sorry, but im unable to view the replays at this time
Well, you're opening immortal, so you certainly CAN beat blink stalker openings. There are a lot of different ways to do a blink opening, so the optimal response will vary. If it's not an all-in, I'd recommend expanding and getting blink yourself. Then go stalker/immortal with a couple collosi to break forcefields/kill any zealots and win the macro game. I'm a big fan of blink openings tho, so I wouldn't say this build "counters" blink openings. I'd say it gives you a good shot to win.
On February 09 2011 04:36 AirbladeOrange wrote: I'm sold that this works pretty well against 4 gating, but I'm worried that its weaknesses to the other builds might not be worth the risk.
Don't most 4 gating people have a stalker out to deny the scouting of their 4 gate so that you can't send in a probe to scout?
All in all it's interesting and I will keep on eye on this thread.
Eco 4-gate is not optimal against tech builds (you can't kill them, and you haven't teched as quickly as possible), but eco 4-gate is VERY common in high level PvP. I consider this opening to be an alternative to an eco 4-gate. You're safe against an all-in, and your tech is decent. It's designed to look like a 4-gate, so your opponent can't know he's safe to tech straight to collosus.
I have been doing a 2-Gate Robo build PvP recently and is working well for me. Instead of 1 gas though I get second gas at 20 and chrono 1 Zealot, 1 Stalker and 2 Sentrys out of my first gate I make my second gate in time for Warp Gate tech. I get my robo ASAP and chrono Immortals until I push out. If they are 4-Gating I can get 3 Sentrys some gateway units and an Immortal in time. From there I will endlessly FF my ramp until they back off. If they contain me I go for Colossus tech. This works well because it I get 3 Immortals fast and can usually do a lot of damage if they expanded.
On February 09 2011 04:36 AirbladeOrange wrote: I'm sold that this works pretty well against 4 gating, but I'm worried that its weaknesses to the other builds might not be worth the risk.
Don't most 4 gating people have a stalker out to deny the scouting of their 4 gate so that you can't send in a probe to scout?
All in all it's interesting and I will keep on eye on this thread.
Thats kinda how it always goes scouting against 4 gate. You can get enough information to tell you how hard to prepare for the 4 gate by the time the stalker comes out though. This is where the energy on their nexus comes in. He hints at this when he says to CB the cybercore and the stalker if possible to make it look like a 4 gate. Basically your scout and his scout will then get the exact same information so it may encourage him to either set up a defensive 4 gate or an aggressive one. If this build holds both then its valid and the only challenge is being able to see how far ahead you are on tech and when you can add the second gas.
I wonder if this build can punish a player expanding behind a 4 gate fast enough?
On February 09 2011 04:48 camster91 wrote: I have been doing a 2-Gate Robo build PvP recently and is working well for me. Instead of 1 gas though I get second gas at 20 and chrono 1 Zealot, 1 Stalker and 2 Sentrys out of my first gate I make my second gate in time for Warp Gate tech. I get my robo ASAP and chrono Immortals until I push out. If they are 4-Gating I can get 3 Sentrys some gateway units and an Immortal in time. From there I will endlessly FF my ramp until they back off. If they contain me I go for Colossus tech. This works well because it I get 3 Immortals fast and can usually do a lot of damage if they expanded.
2500+ Diamond
Well I think one of the key points of his build is creating an army that can take on a 4gate straight up without the use of a bunch of sentries, which delay your tech. What you described is the very common 2 gate robo opener. He's delaying gas, getting an immortal by the time an aggessive 4 gate hits, and using a mostly zealot heavy army presumably to buy time for a second immortal to come out.
On February 09 2011 04:36 AirbladeOrange wrote: I'm sold that this works pretty well against 4 gating, but I'm worried that its weaknesses to the other builds might not be worth the risk.
Don't most 4 gating people have a stalker out to deny the scouting of their 4 gate so that you can't send in a probe to scout?
All in all it's interesting and I will keep on eye on this thread.
Thats kinda how it always goes scouting against 4 gate. You can get enough information to tell you how hard to prepare for the 4 gate by the time the stalker comes out though. This is where the energy on their nexus comes in. He hints at this when he says to CB the cybercore and the stalker if possible to make it look like a 4 gate. Basically your scout and his scout will then get the exact same information so it may encourage him to either set up a defensive 4 gate or an aggressive one. If this build holds both then its valid and the only challenge is being able to see how far ahead you are on tech and when you can add the second gas.
I wonder if this build can punish a player expanding behind a 4 gate fast enough?
Yes, this opening saves a lot of chronoboost (only 2 used on nexus), so when you use chrono on your gate and your core right when the core finishes, it sends 4-gate alarm bells off in your opponent's head. The only tells are the slightly earlier gas and the third pylon. The slightly earlier gas isn't a big deal--it's pretty unlikely that they'll notice it, and even if they do, you can still do a hard 4 gate after a 13 gas. The third pylon is a significant tell that you're not doing an optimal hard 4 gate, but the suboptimal hard 4 gate with the 3rd pylon before added gates isn't that much weaker. If you want to really fake a hard 4 gate, cut probes at 22 and don't build your 3rd pylon until you chase their probe off. Then resume probe production and get your robo.
As for punishing an expansion, immortal dropping the main and then forcefielding to kill the expo is effective an expansion before blink or collosus. It's a difficult technique because you have to lure enough of their army in and you can't afford to lose your immortals, but it should work with practice.
There's also the option of counter-expanding. You'll have a mineral advantage since you only made 2 gateways, so expanding isn't a bad way to go. I'd actually like to test out how early it's possible to expand against 1-base collosus. I've run a few tests with mixed results, but I'd like to be able to say something like, "An expansion after starting your robo support bay is safe against 1-base collosus." I'm not sure at this point exactly how greedy you can be in your transition.
there are around 2 or 3 builds that involve robo tech to hold of 3 gates and this is just 1 of them. the problem is i dont see how this build interact with non-offensive build.
for example, if you are getting 2 immo, when is the timing of the obs and the timing of robo bay if you only hv 1 gas? how this will result in late game with such a high zealots count and a stalkers count is almost 0? Once i experimented with this and i held off a 4 gates push perfectly, the guy went back and get blink and simply snipe my 1st colossi due to the high zealots count...
Few things to improve your build , which will allow you to get immortal quicker and have more zealots to defend :
Use only 1 chrono on nexus rest on wg and imortals ; Build gate at 12 , gas at 13 ; chrono your wg to match his wg timing ; Make robo right after cyber , skipping stalker; Build zealots exclusevly in begining instead of stalker, u dont need it to defend a zealot / stalker poke; Stay on top of your ramp to have positioning advantage.
Replays of me and my friend (both 3300+ master league)
On February 09 2011 05:34 turbopasca1 wrote: few things to improve your build : Use only 1 chrono on nexus rest on wg and imortals ; Build gate at 12 , gas at 13 ; chrono your wg to match his wg timing ; Build zealots exclusevly in begining instead of stalker, u dont need it to defend a zealot / stalker poke, stay on top of your ramp to have positioning advantage. Replays me and my friend are both 3000+ master league. Replay1 replay2
I thought the point of getting stalker is to kill the scouting probe?
I'm sure high level play your going to see that probe alive for a long long time
On February 09 2011 05:30 NB wrote: there are around 2 or 3 builds that involve robo tech to hold of 3 gates and this is just 1 of them. the problem is i dont see how this build interact with non-offensive build.
for example, if you are getting 2 immo, when is the timing of the obs and the timing of robo bay if you only hv 1 gas? how this will result in late game with such a high zealots count and a stalkers count is almost 0? Once i experimented with this and i held off a 4 gates push perfectly, the guy went back and get blink and simply snipe my 1st colossi due to the high zealots count...
The goal is to determine what your opponent is doing ASAP. You can get your 2nd gas as soon as you know your opponent isn't going hard 4-gate, and you should know this by 6 min at the latest. With reasonable scouting, you should have a good sense earlier. I'd recommend getting your observer after your 2nd immortal. By this point, with just a probe scout and a knowledge of timings, you can rule out aggressive 4 gate, aggressive blink, fast expand, and phoenix openings. So you basically know he's going 1-base tech (either collosus or void) before your observer gets close to his base. In my experience, you're a little better off against 1-base collosus than you would have been had you gone eco 4-gate.
On February 09 2011 05:34 turbopasca1 wrote: few things to improve your build : Use only 1 chrono on nexus rest on wg and imortals ; Build gate at 12 , gas at 13 ; chrono your wg to match his wg timing ; Build zealots exclusevly in begining instead of stalker, u dont need it to defend a zealot / stalker poke, stay on top of your ramp to have positioning advantage. Replays me and my friend are both 3000+ master league. Replay1 replay2
I don't like 12 gate. With 12 gate, you have to cut probes to start the core right as the gate finishes. If you don't cut probes, the 13 gate gets the core at almost the exact same time.
If you want, you can save an extra chrono, but I find that you can get away with spending 2 on your nexus, so why wouldn't you?
The stalker is necessary to deny scouting. This opening is at a disadvantage against 1-gate FE and phoenix openings, so a good player will consistently beat this opening if you skip the stalker.
On February 09 2011 05:37 rolfe wrote: how does this do against the korean 4 gate?
10gateway 13gas with pulled probes is all scoutable with your first scouting probe. He pulls probes off gas, the gateway is early, and his nexus energy is higher than ever. You haven't placed your robo yet and can safely do whatever opening you prefer against Korean 4 Warpgate play. This does not typically involve a robo (no stalkers / variations with very few stalkers) so you're not continuing in the gateway - robo - gate build order.
You are AWESOME dude, I just did this against a 10 gate - w4gate less than a minute ago and it works AMAZINGLY well, I even had a super delayed second gate because of RL stuff and it still held the 4gate off with ease.
Props man, this is gonna be my standard opening from now on, safe against fucking everything, except maybe a 1gate expand
On February 09 2011 05:37 rolfe wrote: how does this do against the korean 4 gate?
10gateway 13gas with pulled probes is all scoutable with your first scouting probe. He pulls probes off gas, the gateway is early, and his nexus energy is higher than ever. You haven't placed your robo yet and can safely do whatever opening you prefer against Korean 4 Warpgate play. This does not typically involve a robo (no stalkers / variations with very few stalkers) so you're not continuing in the gateway - robo - gate build order.
Exactly. Against K4G, you just do whatever you'd normally do against K4G. This opening saves quite a lot of chrono, so you should be fine.
On February 09 2011 05:52 Dommk wrote: You are AWESOME dude, I just did this against a 10 gate - w4gate less than a minute ago and it works AMAZINGLY well, I even had a super delayed second gate because of RL stuff and it still held the 4gate off with ease.
Props man, this is gonna be my standard opening from now on, safe against fucking everything, except maybe a 1gate expand
I used to use a similar build (1gate robo into 2 gates) a lot and still use it like half the time, but what made me stop using it as much was the fact that I lost to a stargate build once. Obs is really late since you need immortals to hold off 4gate, but if he goes stargate, it's really strong since you only have 2 gates to start warping in stalkers AFTER you see his units, and the gates have been pumping only zealots so far. Stargate builds aren't too common, though, but it still gives kind of a coinflip sense to PvP.
Nice that you worked out the timings so well. I've suspected that a VERY early robo should be able to beat a 4 gate because of the early immortal, but I never really had the guts to try it out. Maybe there's hope left in PvP after all.
Just one question. In your build you scout after gateway - aren't you afraid of losing against cheese? I have my worst win-rates against cheese even though I scout at 9...
Just one question. In your build you scout after gateway - aren't you afraid of losing against cheese? I have my worst win-rates against cheese even though I scout at 9...
I can say without a doubt I lost to a cheese last night that would have been prevented if I had 9 scouted like i normally do. Ive always just gone with what liquid`tyler said a while back god knows where... that if you pylon scout you 13 gate and if you gateway scout you 12 gate and that those two things depend on what you're looking for and the map you're on. Seems like gateway scouting on 4 player maps would be best and pylon scouting on 1v1 maps best to me.
the worst is when you get cheesed like twice in a row then lose a standard game! I hate that so much... its not the cheese so much as I know im going to have to work really hard to get that standard win even though I just lost a game in like 4 minutes.
On February 09 2011 05:45 kcdc wrote: I don't like 12 gate. With 12 gate, you have to cut probes to start the core right as the gate finishes. If you don't cut probes, the 13 gate gets the core at almost the exact same time.
Yes but your Core is still a little delayed with the 13 gate. It has to be. The slight probe production stutter at 12 and then again at 17 shave off a bit of time which means that if your opponent hits with a 4 gate at ~ 5:50 and your 2 gates only come up at 6:00, those 10 seconds can really cost you, at least in my experience (I'm only high Diamond though so I'll defer to you on this obviously). But I don't know of another matchup than PvP where those few extra seconds matter so very much.
Love the build though, I'll definitely give it a shot, thanks so much for yet another awesome contribution to the arsenal of Toss builds.
Quick question about scouting on 13 though: isn't that a bit risky in terms of responding to things like proxy 2 Gate? by getting to their base that much later, especially on larger maps, I'd imagine it would be very difficult to adjust, and this build doesn't really pay off defensively until a bit later it seems? Do you always scout on 13?
On February 09 2011 06:18 Enervate wrote: I used to use a similar build (1gate robo into 2 gates) a lot and still use it like half the time, but what made me stop using it as much was the fact that I lost to a stargate build once. Obs is really late since you need immortals to hold off 4gate, but if he goes stargate, it's really strong since you only have 2 gates to start warping in stalkers AFTER you see his units, and the gates have been pumping only zealots so far. Stargate builds aren't too common, though, but it still gives kind of a coinflip sense to PvP.
Yeah, this opening suffers from a lack of anti-air. Stargate openings die to 4-gate for the most part (too gas intensive, and the resulting units aren't good against zealot/stalker), so this opening hedges its lack of AA by appearing to be a 4-gate. If they go stargate, they're effectively gambling that you're not going to 4 gate, and in the current PvP environment, that's not a good gamble. If this build becomes popular, however, that will change the calculus.
What if your opponent wasn't going to four gate you, and just did a standard three gate robo? With two immortals and observer, you would have very late colossus it seems. Also, if your opponent four gates and sees your prepared as he goes up the ramp, what's stopping them from warping in sentries and force fielding your ramp as they expand and tech to colossus themselves? I myself open three gate robo against all four-gates except korean, and I need that very quick colossus to bust down my ramp often.
On February 09 2011 06:28 sleepingdog wrote: Just one question. In your build you scout after gateway - aren't you afraid of losing against cheese? I have my worst win-rates against cheese even though I scout at 9...
I do prefer to scout after gateway on 13 rather than the more common 9 scout on most maps. I check common cheese locations where it makes sense, but yeah, 9 scout is probably a little safer against cheese in a lot of situations. On a map like Xel'Naga Caverns, I feel totally comfortable with a 13 scout. I just bounce to the far corner of my base and then the area outside the ramp where everyone cannons and if I don't see cheese there, I feel confident he's building stuff in his base. On a map like Scrap Station, there's about a million places to hide a proxy, and it takes too long to get to their main for you to react in time after a scout on 13, so I 9 scout on Scrap Station. Lost Temple is somewhere in between. They can put 2 gates behind the grass on the low ground outside their main, and if you scout that position last after a 13 scout, you'll lose, but that's pretty rare. If you like to 9 scout, go ahead. Those extra minerals won't break the build. In general tho, I don't feel that much safer with a 9 scout than with a 13 scout, so I usually take the minerals.
I don't know if I should tell the world this, but my cheese defense is largely centered around whether his probe is acting weird. If the probe disappears for any length of time, I send a second probe to poke around looking for proxies and cannons. Smart cannon rushers should send 2 probes so the first can locate the base and act normal while the second acts like an asshole putting cannons everywhere.
On February 09 2011 07:00 Salv wrote: What if your opponent wasn't going to four gate you, and just did a standard three gate robo? With two immortals and observer, you would have very late colossus it seems. Also, if your opponent four gates and sees your prepared as he goes up the ramp, what's stopping them from warping in sentries and force fielding your ramp as they expand and tech to colossus themselves? I myself open three gate robo against all four-gates except korean, and I need that very quick colossus to bust down my ramp often.
In my experience, 3 gate robo with 2 gas isn't safe vs 4 gate, so I don't know if it's a fair comparison. If they camp your ramp with forcefields, just make a warp prism and attack their main.
On February 09 2011 07:00 Salv wrote: What if your opponent wasn't going to four gate you, and just did a standard three gate robo? With two immortals and observer, you would have very late colossus it seems. Also, if your opponent four gates and sees your prepared as he goes up the ramp, what's stopping them from warping in sentries and force fielding your ramp as they expand and tech to colossus themselves? I myself open three gate robo against all four-gates except korean, and I need that very quick colossus to bust down my ramp often.
In my experience, 3 gate robo with 2 gas isn't safe vs 4 gate, so I don't know if it's a fair comparison. If they camp your ramp with forcefields, just make a warp prism and attack their main.
I 2nd the fact that any 2 gas robo build with sentries will not hold a properly executed 4 gate.
Do you have a replay where a 1gate expand counters this build? Isn't it possible to transition into 4gates and crush the fe? The only fe builds in pvp which really worked were in my experience with cannonsupport - and 1-2 immortals should do pretty well against them (atleast in a cerain time frame).
This is pretty new wow, but anyways yeah the build works great. Any early immortal with good micro against a 4gate will do well. Don't know why I see more pros doing this. Perhaps because it is strict on the micro and is "risky" because of that? (Ex: accidentally losing the immortal).
Would love to see someone get a warp prism + immortal with perfect control and rape a 4 gate xD. I'll look forward to the future
On February 09 2011 07:36 ABCSFirebird wrote: @kcdc
Do you have a replay where a 1gate expand counters this build? Isn't it possible to transition into 4gates and crush the fe? The only fe builds in pvp which really worked were in my experience with cannonsupport - and 1-2 immortals should do pretty well against them (atleast in a cerain time frame).
No, don't have any. People don't often go 1 gate FE because it dies against the most common PvP builds. Immortals are bad for aggression tho. Unlike warpgate units, they have to slowly walk across the map. They also get owned by forcefields. You can run some tests tho if you like. It's possible you can just walk over and kill it with your first immortal + zealots.
i watch the replay now and a "well excuted 4 Gate 1 Gas allin" will hit u @ 5:45~ 5:50 with 5 Stalker or 1 Zealot 4 Stalker
~ in the first replay u got 2 Zealot 1 Stalker + 3/4 of ur immortal @ this time
his attack is like 20 seconds to late
second replay
timinig of his attack was good, but he just had 3 Warpgates. so im not so sure what i have to think about it
i think it depends on what the player is warping in. If he just warpin 4 stalkers u are in good shape with ur immortal, but i think u can get problems if he decide to just warpin zealots.
For note, I've seen TLO do this build quite a bit. And form my personal experience it's quite solid, however if your opponent goes the extremely fast colossus route, the only option i've found to deal with the range advantage is to get a warp prism and drop on the colossus. Just thought i'd mention it.
On February 09 2011 08:13 gardis wrote: i dont wanna be mean but..If he just warpin 4 stalkers u are in good shape with ur immortal, but i think u can get problems if he decide to just warpin zealots.
Yeah, I just tried the build and lost because my opponent didn't build the standard 6 stalkers but matched my zealot-count. My zealots died faster because stalkers are better vs zealots than immortals. I couldn't get around the zealots to attack the stalkers.
Imo it's very important to go aggressively into the zealot/stalker micro battle because this normally makes them warp in units not directly in front of or inside your main. This is exactly why the 2nd game was so much closer. Because in the first game he warped from the farther away pylon and the walking-time saved kcdc. He can't avoid this micro-battle, otherwise his probe is unprotected.
On February 09 2011 08:13 gardis wrote: i dont wanna be mean but..If he just warpin 4 stalkers u are in good shape with ur immortal, but i think u can get problems if he decide to just warpin zealots.
Yeah, I just tried the build and lost because my opponent didn't build the standard 6 stalkers but matched my zealot-count. My zealots died faster because stalkers are better vs zealots than immortals. I couldn't get around the zealots to attack the stalkers.
Imo it's very important to go aggressively into the zealot/stalker micro battle because this normally makes them warp in units not directly in front of or inside your main. This is exactly why the 2nd game was so much closer. Because in the first game he warped from the farther away pylon and the walking-time saved kcdc. He can't avoid this micro-battle, otherwise his probe is unprotected.
In a zealot vs zealot fight, immortals provide slightly better support (for cost) than stalkers do. They do the same DPS, but immortals can tank about double the hits. Given the same DPS, it's better to have one unit with double the health than spread the DPS over two units because at half damage, it's better to have an immortal at 50% health than have 1 of 2 stalkers die.
If you're fighting at an open area, you shouldn't have too much trouble getting your immortal in range of the stalkers.
Honestly tho, I haven't run into a 4 gate that attacks with more zealots than I've got. I'd imagine that would require different micro. If this opening becomes common, I suppose we might see more zealot-oriented 4 gates, but for now, zealots lack the mobility that makes 4-gates so hard to deal with once they're up your ramp.
On February 09 2011 08:13 gardis wrote: i dont wanna be mean but..If he just warpin 4 stalkers u are in good shape with ur immortal, but i think u can get problems if he decide to just warpin zealots.
Yeah, I just tried the build and lost because my opponent didn't build the standard 6 stalkers but matched my zealot-count. My zealots died faster because stalkers are better vs zealots than immortals. I couldn't get around the zealots to attack the stalkers.
Imo it's very important to go aggressively into the zealot/stalker micro battle because this normally makes them warp in units not directly in front of or inside your main. This is exactly why the 2nd game was so much closer. Because in the first game he warped from the farther away pylon and the walking-time saved kcdc. He can't avoid this micro-battle, otherwise his probe is unprotected.
On February 09 2011 07:00 Salv wrote: What if your opponent wasn't going to four gate you, and just did a standard three gate robo? With two immortals and observer, you would have very late colossus it seems. Also, if your opponent four gates and sees your prepared as he goes up the ramp, what's stopping them from warping in sentries and force fielding your ramp as they expand and tech to colossus themselves? I myself open three gate robo against all four-gates except korean, and I need that very quick colossus to bust down my ramp often.
In my experience, 3 gate robo with 2 gas isn't safe vs 4 gate, so I don't know if it's a fair comparison. If they camp your ramp with forcefields, just make a warp prism and attack their main.
It's not safe versus every four gate, it's safe versus a more economic four gate - one where they aren't cutting probes as your probe is in their base. If they cut probes, then I four gate myself, and if they korean four gate, then I just simcity with cannons. I'm more concerned with how you would adapt to a player who does a style like the one I described above. You will be making immortals right away, as it's the entire point of the build, whereas someone else opening robo will make an observer, and then go right into colossus. That seems like it would put them at a significant lead.
I have one question kcdc, what do you feel is a good transition or set of transitions?
If I see collossus off one base and heavy zealots then perhaps a stargate to get voidrays to attak the collosus is a good transition? I will try this build out in about 10 - 15 minutes against PC to learn the timings and practice then take this to ladder.
Im 2700 diamond and will return with my findings and experiences. Im not very good and im about average but I think with practice this may help me out with my PvP and not just 4 or 3 gating.
On February 09 2011 09:44 Volka wrote: How do you adapt to 2 gate adelscot?
2 gate adelscott is so ezily scouted, and you haven't even started this build really. So you just play how you normally would against the adelscott... However you want. Put up a 2nd gate, and then tech or just 4gate him.
I still need some more work with this build, but it seems crucial to me that once you get your 2nd immortal out, and they haven't pushed YOU should push. And when you do, start warping in stalkers just in case you run into voids. I can't imagine them having a void ray when you actually do push at the 7 min mark because that would have meant they went like 2 gate stargate which is very risky to say the least.
The 4gate would have come by 6:30 at the latest, so once you see that, get your 2nd gas and start warping in stalkers now and make a push. You should have a favorable army at this time. I think it's also worth it to make a warp prism while you're pushing as it allows for a lot of flexibility in your attack, like warping in behind him, and keeping him under pressure if you fall backa bit.
On February 09 2011 07:00 Salv wrote: What if your opponent wasn't going to four gate you, and just did a standard three gate robo? With two immortals and observer, you would have very late colossus it seems. Also, if your opponent four gates and sees your prepared as he goes up the ramp, what's stopping them from warping in sentries and force fielding your ramp as they expand and tech to colossus themselves? I myself open three gate robo against all four-gates except korean, and I need that very quick colossus to bust down my ramp often.
In my experience, 3 gate robo with 2 gas isn't safe vs 4 gate, so I don't know if it's a fair comparison. If they camp your ramp with forcefields, just make a warp prism and attack their main.
It's not safe versus every four gate, it's safe versus a more economic four gate - one where they aren't cutting probes as your probe is in their base. If they cut probes, then I four gate myself, and if they korean four gate, then I just simcity with cannons. I'm more concerned with how you would adapt to a player who does a style like the one I described above. You will be making immortals right away, as it's the entire point of the build, whereas someone else opening robo will make an observer, and then go right into colossus. That seems like it would put them at a significant lead.
This build is really best against 1 gas builds. If they go 2 gas early enough for your probe to scout them mining gas, you don't have to worry about a hard 4 gate and you can do something that takes advantage of a 2 gas build (hard 4 gate, fast expand, get 2 gas yourself, etc). You'd choose this build if you're worried about defending a 4 gate, but you want to go robo and don't want to waste resources on gateways/sentries.
You can play it against 2 gas builds, but you'll want to fake a 4 gate so that they have to burn some gas on sentries. Against a 2 gas build, you'll want to take your 2nd gas as soon as their probe has been chased off, and then you want to sell a 4 gate to keep the tech race even. Try attacking with your first zealot/stalker and putting a pylon outside their front. It costs you 100 minerals, but they'll make 3 sentries which will even out the gas differential.
Alternatively, you could try to take advantage of your mineral advantage and expand quickly. It's something I haven't tested, but it might be doable against tech builds.
On February 09 2011 10:08 Acridice wrote: I still need some more work with this build, but it seems crucial to me that once you get your 2nd immortal out, and they haven't pushed YOU should push. And when you do, start warping in stalkers just in case you run into voids. I can't imagine them having a void ray when you actually do push at the 7 min mark because that would have meant they went like 2 gate stargate which is very risky to say the least.
The 4gate would have come by 6:30 at the latest, so once you see that, get your 2nd gas and start warping in stalkers now and make a push. You should have a favorable army at this time. I think it's also worth it to make a warp prism while you're pushing as it allows for a lot of flexibility in your attack, like warping in behind him, and keeping him under pressure if you fall backa bit.
Eh, I've tried it and discovered that you can't really break a sentry defense. You absolutely can make a warp prism and immortal drop for free kills. Tech builds are very low on stalkers, so you drop your immortals on the edge of their base to hit a pylon. The stalkers run over to defend, so you kill as many as you can and then pick up your immortals. The key is not to let your warp prism get hit. It takes some practice, but it can be worth doing. One game, I managed to tally something like 6 stalker kills, 2 pylons and a collosus. That's pretty atypical tho.
Someone posted their attempts at this on the first page. They skipped the stalker and got the immortal out 30 seconds sooner. I think this might work given that so many player run their probe away around the time the stalker is coming out.
I have another question, what about on maps with two ramps into your main such as blistering and jungle basin (if it is ever returned to map pool)?
With an immortal Zealot force I can see the opponent who 4 gates being able to really abuse the 2 entrances and the lower mobility of your units. I mean sure you can pull back to your nexus but the problem then is you are contained and if you try to attack them and push out they can come in through the back and kill stuff while you are out of position. So to avoid this you cant really go anywhere and are effectively contained allowing the 4 gater to expo. In these situations what is your perspective and experience?
I really like this opening. At last a way to make early use of Immortals (they are boss!), even against 4 Gate. Hopefully it becomes as effective as your 1 Gate FE in PvT. Cheers to kcdc! :D
Ah, good to see you've made this into a proper guide. If you want, I can do some more testing with you on it to see if you can expand immediately vs 2 gas builds, or what possibilities there are for punishing 2 gas builds.
I've been playing with this build on YABOT all evening and I think there is a very slight bump when you're getting your 2nd gate, your 2nd zealot, the robo is half way done and you need a pylon in order not to get supply blocked for the immortal that you're about to queue.
Given that you're still on 1 gas at that point and that you're already fully saturated on the minerals, I think it's beneficial to cut a couple probes in order for everything to line up better. Otherwise it's very, very tough to have the 5 Zealots 1 Stalker and the Immortal ready at the 6 minute mark. Usually it's more like 6:15-6:20, and if the 4 gater is really good he'll hit around 5:45-5:50 so you really really need to be fully ready at the 6 minute mark in my opinion.
Very, very tight build but really neat if everything works out!
suppose your 4gating opponent stops building stalkers, mostly builds zeal/sentry, contains you and expands? do you get 1base colossus and win, or is it too slow vs their expo?
Ive been using this so far tonight and i found that if the opponent decides to get mostly zealots on the warp ins even after the stalkers die then you are at a disadvantage since your immortals cant kill them quickly enough though perhaps i am mismicroing the attack
On February 09 2011 11:43 RedusK wrote: I've been playing with this build on YABOT all evening and I think there is a very slight bump when you're getting your 2nd gate, your 2nd zealot, the robo is half way done and you need a pylon in order not to get supply blocked for the immortal that you're about to queue.
Given that you're still on 1 gas at that point and that you're already fully saturated on the minerals, I think it's beneficial to cut a couple probes in order for everything to line up better. Otherwise it's very, very tough to have the 5 Zealots 1 Stalker and the Immortal ready at the 6 minute mark. Usually it's more like 6:15-6:20, and if the 4 gater is really good he'll hit around 5:45-5:50 so you really really need to be fully ready at the 6 minute mark in my opinion.
Very, very tight build but really neat if everything works out!
Yes, you do need to cut probes against a hard 4 gate that stops probe production after 20. That's scoutable tho. And you've correctly noted the spot that I like to cut probes. If you cut probes at 28/34, you have food to start a zealot and an immortal before you need your next pylon to finish. This seems to be the best spot to steal a few extra seconds with probe cuts.
Considering this is designed to counter the 4 gate 1 gas build, why do you need to hide the fact that you are going 1 gate robo? You have a probe in their base so you can rule out any 2/3 non warpgate agression that would really crush a 1 gate robo build.
Metagame wise, wouldn't you want them to see the robo because 1. its a faster immortal and 2. the standard response is to 4 gate 1 gas against a robo (most people believe its impossible/highly improbable for a robo before 3 gates build to hold a 4 gate 1 gas, especially a 1 gate robo)
Well if they go stargate upon seeing it you have a build order loss (again, assuming equal skill, 3 gate stargate phoenix will crush any robo build) but I don't think many protoss do that right now--other than me because i love phoenix pvp =D.
I guess if they 2 gas robo and colossi tech in response it might be a slight problem but you still aren't really behind because you still have your robo and immortals are really freaking beast--one of the most under rated units in the game imo. You can just take your 2nd gas at ~6 minutes after the timing for a 4gate 1 gas and be fine against everything.
Personally I would love if they 1 gate robo'd to my 1 gate robo in response because I really don't think pvp is that bad past all the all-in crap.
This build is theoretically amazing for scrap station because i fking hate that map for pvp atm so thanks for posting this.
I have been doing a build where I can make 2 immortals/5 zealots/1 stalker around the 6 min. marker with 22 probes...I'm still doing it over the computer until I can get it down perfectly but this build is similar to mine.
if other masters protoss is interested in helping each other building a build like this up add me
On February 09 2011 08:13 gardis wrote: i dont wanna be mean but..If he just warpin 4 stalkers u are in good shape with ur immortal, but i think u can get problems if he decide to just warpin zealots.
Yeah, I just tried the build and lost because my opponent didn't build the standard 6 stalkers but matched my zealot-count. My zealots died faster because stalkers are better vs zealots than immortals. I couldn't get around the zealots to attack the stalkers.
Imo it's very important to go aggressively into the zealot/stalker micro battle because this normally makes them warp in units not directly in front of or inside your main. This is exactly why the 2nd game was so much closer. Because in the first game he warped from the farther away pylon and the walking-time saved kcdc. He can't avoid this micro-battle, otherwise his probe is unprotected.
Why don't you post a replay?
Easy - my execution sucked, no need to ask for help when I haven't done everything right building-wise on my part. This definitely shouldn't have been a "blah this build doesn't work"-remark, more a "hmm...this could create troubles"-remark.
On February 09 2011 08:13 gardis wrote: i dont wanna be mean but..If he just warpin 4 stalkers u are in good shape with ur immortal, but i think u can get problems if he decide to just warpin zealots.
Yeah, I just tried the build and lost because my opponent didn't build the standard 6 stalkers but matched my zealot-count. My zealots died faster because stalkers are better vs zealots than immortals. I couldn't get around the zealots to attack the stalkers.
Imo it's very important to go aggressively into the zealot/stalker micro battle because this normally makes them warp in units not directly in front of or inside your main. This is exactly why the 2nd game was so much closer. Because in the first game he warped from the farther away pylon and the walking-time saved kcdc. He can't avoid this micro-battle, otherwise his probe is unprotected.
In a zealot vs zealot fight, immortals provide slightly better support (for cost) than stalkers do. They do the same DPS, but immortals can tank about double the hits. Given the same DPS, it's better to have one unit with double the health than spread the DPS over two units because at half damage, it's better to have an immortal at 50% health than have 1 of 2 stalkers die.
I definitely agree, zealot/immortal normally wins clearly against zealot/stalker. Nevertheless the problem is/was that at this exact point in time you simply lack the sheer numbers...in my opinion (meaning, I basicly don't have a clear understanding yet) it's absolutely crucial that you are able to micro your immortal onto their stalkers. If you leave your immortal shooting at zealots, you probably die, because when both sides lose all meatshield, he'll warp in 4 more zealots and your reinforcements consist of 2 zealots and the 2nd immortal that's about to pop.
Oh yeah, another remark regarding building-placement that I found out the hard way. It's NOT a good idea to put the robotics down anywhere near the front. Nope, it's not what you may think, that they focus-fire the robotics...well, they do, but that's not the problem. If they can kill it, you/I/we sucked anyways. The problem is, that the frickin immortal spawns right in front of them, providing a nice target. I'm currently theory-crafting about perfect building-placements. For now I'm thinking about something like the first gateway facing towards the ramp, the core a bit more behind, the 2nd gateway directly in front of the core - so that they basicly see 2 gateways first and can't hit the core straight away. The robotics pretty far in the back, so it doesn't matter when they push you back deep inside your base. In one match against a decent opponent, I had to take on the fight with just zealots to avoid my 2nd immortal spawning directly "among" the opponents zealots. This has to be prevented under any circumstances.
On February 09 2011 13:37 Dsn4001 wrote: Dude, I love you kcdc.
Had a game PvP with a 2700 Masters player, he does the proper 4 gate at 5:40. Manage to hold. I even go afk a bit since I know I'm so far ahead.
this is not a prober 4 Gate.
the goal of a 4 gas allin is to attack right away and not wait 20 seconds in front of a base, also 1 stalker was in the middle of the map.
if u check out at 5:50, if he would attack you with the stuff that he got there, how u wanna hold that?
Dsn also didn't execute the build optimally. He got his gas late, he queued up an extra probe which made his zealot late which in turn made his stalker late, and because his stalker and gas were late, his robo was late, thereby making his immortal late. You can have the immortal before 6 minutes if you do everything perfectly.
On February 09 2011 13:37 Dsn4001 wrote: Dude, I love you kcdc.
Had a game PvP with a 2700 Masters player, he does the proper 4 gate at 5:40. Manage to hold. I even go afk a bit since I know I'm so far ahead.
this is not a prober 4 Gate.
the goal of a 4 gas allin is to attack right away and not wait 20 seconds in front of a base, also 1 stalker was in the middle of the map.
if u check out at 5:50, if he would attack you with the stuff that he got there, how u wanna hold that?
Dsn also didn't execute the build optimally. He got his gas late, he queued up an extra probe which made his zealot late which in turn made his stalker late, and because his stalker and gas were late, his robo was late, thereby making his immortal late. You can have the immortal before 6 minutes if you do everything perfectly.
then i hope i will see soon 2 perfect executed builds
I'm wonder why you trying to help us kcdc since you make perfect Bo which can be countered once they get popular and at the end, doesn't help yourself :/ Maybe you help us to be our hero which is the case (I've seen many pgm talking about you on streamlive) but you make yourself in danger in a deep futur :p
Anyway, I would like to ask you something. You saying that the worse counter vs your 4g counter is 2 gaz phenix or whatever. What about if we steal one gaz from our opponent to force him to make 4g (which give us a good advantage if we going for your 1g robo build) ? Does it delay the build order that much ?
On February 09 2011 21:35 gardis wrote: then i hope i will see soon 2 perfect executed builds
watch my replays on 1st page , the reason why my bo differes from kcdc (12 gate , no stalker) is because a good executed 4 gate push comes at 5.35-5.45 minute mark , and u wont have immortal out by that time if u follow kcdc build order .
On February 09 2011 21:40 Blessed wrote: kcdc if you have solved PvP you deserve to be hailed as a hero, for not just this but your PvT FE
Care to share the PvT build? I've been doing a 1 gate expo at 24 and then adding 2 gates and a robo, it works sometimes but then fails other times.
13 gate 15 gas 16 pylon 18 core 19 zealot (chrono to attack) 22 pylon stalker + warp gate (chrono to attack) stalker you will have around 28-32 supply while moving out, you will have a huge amount of minerals (300+) throw down a nexus + pylon 2 gates and a robo
chrono depends on the terran you can chrono your probes if you see a passive FE terran attack with your scouting probe, zealot, and stalker (together) and you'll be able to take out marines if he has any or possibly marauders. trading a zealot for a marauder is always good.
I used to do a 2 gas 2 gate robo relying on a sentry to defend vs the 4 gate. That works as well but is harder to perform and puts you back further against other strats actually. The problem I had with that build was that it was too easy to scout.
This build is quite hard to scout and doesn't use sentries which I really like about it. That alone makes it much harder to scout and gives it much more potential to push against FE builds and the like. I believe that sentries are terrible units in PvP and should be avoided as much as possible as they take away valuable gas from other units and have a very minimal impact on fights.
I don't think the 13 gas is neccesary for this build though. Your gas will be a very minimal time faster then a 14 gas with 2 chronoboost right away and it does hurt your eco a fair bit. Instead I'd just go normal and have the robo just a few secs later, but with 1 more chronoboost on warpgate tech. This will let you have your WG up a bit faster and thus your first 2 warped in zealots and subsequent ones faster while having your immortals just a bit later. I think that is slightly better for a couple reasons: - you won't have a probe cut, meaning slightly better eco and a even harder to scout build. - if the opponent scouts well he will have his probe still around while you want to put down that slightly faster robo, delaying it that 5 secs will make it less likely for him to see it. - you can really get a 100% used gateway more easily. The key to using a 2 gate robo build imo is partially in fitting your WG tech exactly with the time your last zealot finishes. WG tech = 140 secs, zealot = 38 secs, stalker = 42 secs. CB takes 10 secs of build time. => if you want make to 3 units out of your gate before WG finishes you want to boost warpgate two times more then your gateway. For example 1 boost on gate 3 on WG will result in your last zealot and wg tech finishing near exactly the same moment. Likewise with 2 on WG 0 on gate. Tuning your build to use one of each option is the best way imo.
The build seems alright in a straight fight against a 4 gates but what can you do if he goes into your main and snipe probes and pylons with stalkers, constantly running away from your zealots ? Sure you will kill some stalkers but at equal micro he'll still do a fair amount of damage, i'm not sure of the outcome.
Second problem is, this composition is weak against 4 gates with heavy sentries composition. Splitting the army and killing zealots is perfectly feasible in pvp. If you try to go for colossi too quickly you'll lose because you won't have enough immortals and if you're too slow he'll probably have enough income to beat you with a superior blink/charge gateway army.
I would really like to see this build perform against a properly executed 4gate, until then I still think the standard 1 gas 4gate beats it. Lets look at the replays:
1st replay: Cross positions Metalopolis, opponent's warpgate research finishes with 50 chrono energy on the nexus. But then he doesn't attack you when he has a window of 30 seconds until your immortal finishes (at 6:10) but rather just chills in front of your base and then attacks when your immortal spawns.
2nd replay: 4th gate gets built at 340 minerals (...) and then completely garbage micro ensues. Loses units with superior stalker count (I mean cmon, they are the fastest ground unit in PvP), idles zealots in your main, lets his zealots get trapped by your ones, tries to focus the robo ... etc.
I imagine that 1 Zealot 6 Stalker, which is ready at 5:40 in a well executed 1 gas 4gate completely rapes the 2 zealot 1 stalker you have at the time, in the replays warpgates finish at 6:00, so you could probably squeeze out 4 Zealot 1 Stalker when the 4gate initially hits. But you are still getting kited and losing units and then the reinforcements make for 5 Zealots and 6 Stalkers vs your (at best) 4 zealot 1 stalker 1 immortal.
On February 09 2011 23:30 ChickenLips wrote: I would really like to see this build perform against a properly executed 4gate, until then I still think the standard 1 gas 4gate beats it. Lets look at the replays:
1st replay: Cross positions Metalopolis, opponent's warpgate research finishes with 50 chrono energy on the nexus. But then he doesn't attack you when he has a window of 30 seconds until your immortal finishes (at 6:10) but rather just chills in front of your base and then attacks when your immortal spawns.
2nd replay: 4th gate gets built at 340 minerals (...) and then completely garbage micro ensues. Loses units with superior stalker count (I mean cmon, they are the fastest ground unit in PvP), idles zealots in your main, lets his zealots get trapped by your ones, tries to focus the robo ... etc.
I imagine that 1 Zealot 6 Stalker, which is ready at 5:40 in a well executed 1 gas 4gate completely rapes the 2 zealot 1 stalker you have at the time, in the replays warpgates finish at 6:00, so you could probably squeeze out 4 Zealot 1 Stalker when the 4gate initially hits. But you are still getting kited and losing units and then the reinforcements make for 5 Zealots and 6 Stalkers vs your (at best) 4 zealot 1 stalker 1 immortal.
totally agreed , none of these replays are example of a good executed 4 gate , please try to read the whole thread , ive posted why this build need improvement .
On February 09 2011 23:13 Valefort wrote: The build seems alright in a straight fight against a 4 gates but what can you do if he goes into your main and snipe probes and pylons with stalkers, constantly running away from your zealots ? Sure you will kill some stalkers but at equal micro he'll still do a fair amount of damage, i'm not sure of the outcome.
This is actually a very interesting point, when he gets his 4 stalker warp in at 5:40 he can just run up your ramp, and start killing all your probes since you have all your 200 gas invested into robo + still making immortal whereas he has it in his 4 stalkers. All you have that can damage his stalkers at this point is _1_ stalker.
I think this build has potential but as Tyler has said, against the cleanly executed ASAP 4gate its probably best to just defensively 4gate yourself (and eek out a few more probes than him etc.)
I'm under the impression the probe cut for the slightly faster gas is completely unneccesary. After a quick test I modified the build a little bit. Instead of kcdc I use 3 chrono's on nexus, then 2 on warpgate tech then all others on robo. The reasoning here is that not using the 3rd chrono on your nexus makes your economy very tight. which makes it really hard to get out the 2nd gateway on time etc, you can see in the replays of kcdc that he slightly stumbles and has less zealots because of it. Also 1 chrono on stalker 2 on WG is slightly inefficient as your first gateway will be idle for about 12 seconds after the 3rd zealot. Not chronoing the gate will make this less so and as a sideeffect will make your build look even more like a 1 gas 4 gate (especially if you make your 3rd pylon out of sight).
Without probe cut and 14 gas I then get my first immortal out at 5:58, 2nd one will be around 6:37.
A few notes by the way for when you do get 4 gated using this build: - stop probe production at 26 (22 on minerals, 3 on gas 1 scouting or dead). This will let you first round of warped zealots exactly let you go up to 42/42 pop. Each consequent immortal and round of zealots will use exactly 1 pylon then, if you continue making probes you can get supplyblocked, especially annoying if the 4 gater aimed at one of your pylons. - build as close as possible to your main. This makes it much harder for them to micro and continuously keep warping in units, unless they make a pylon on top of your plateau, in which case they can't retreat easily anymore. - it is a good idea to make your buildings in a line blocking him from running around your base with stalkers. I like to wall off 1 side of my base from nexus to the edge so you can trap his stalkers if he tries to move around. A pylon blocking the path behind your mineral line is also useful.
On February 09 2011 23:30 ChickenLips wrote: I imagine that 1 Zealot 6 Stalker, which is ready at 5:40 in a well executed 1 gas 4gate completely rapes the 2 zealot 1 stalker you have at the time, in the replays warpgates finish at 6:00, so you could probably squeeze out 4 Zealot 1 Stalker when the 4gate initially hits. But you are still getting kited and losing units and then the reinforcements make for 5 Zealots and 6 Stalkers vs your (at best) 4 zealot 1 stalker 1 immortal.
I completely agree with that, I also posted some pages ago that this is the reason why I think you HAVE to go aggressive with 1 zealot 1 stalker, don't be afraid of the micro-battle. Since you are not cutting probes heavily, you could take 1-2 probes with you to focus down the zealot fast.
Everything depends on you not having to face your opponent's forces before your immortal is out. This means, you have to force him to warp in units at his pylon more in the back (everybody builds one there when 4-gating) and not directly near your ramp or even already on top of it. The 4-gater can only have 1 zealot and 1 stalker while the 2nd stalker always lags behind, since it is built after the 3 additional gates. So even if you suck at the micro-battle, you get your 2nd zealot in position.
Therefore yes, the opponents of kcdc made mistakes while executing the 4-gate so that he had enough time to get the immortals out...nevertheless, after doing some testing, I'm convinced that you can FORCE your opponent into a slight delay, if you go aggressive early on.
Having immortal early sure is good vs blinkstalkers, but not so much vs 4gate. Having immo @ 6:00 isn't fast enough. It's simply not possible to have immo against 4gate, period. As long as this works, it means opponents aren't doing 4gate as fast as they could. 4gates often revolve around having 1-5stalkers and rest lots, so immo really isn't even that good vs it since it often gets blocked by lots and can't even reach those few stalkers.
Sentries aren't BAD in colo phase of the game btw. FF is obv a lot worse, but it can still be used somewhat to block lots from getting to your army sometimes. And the most important thing ofc is gs. Reducing 4dmg per colohit is pretty huge. So it's not waste if you have 2 sentries in lategame.
On February 09 2011 21:35 gardis wrote: then i hope i will see soon 2 perfect executed builds
watch my replays on 1st page , the reason why my bo differes from kcdc (12 gate , no stalker) is because a good executed 4 gate push comes at 5.35-5.45 minute mark , and u wont have immortal out by that time if u follow kcdc build order .
On February 09 2011 21:35 gardis wrote: then i hope i will see soon 2 perfect executed builds
watch my replays on 1st page , the reason why my bo differes from kcdc (12 gate , no stalker) is because a good executed 4 gate push comes at 5.35-5.45 minute mark , and u wont have immortal out by that time if u follow kcdc build order .
Nearly forgot to question that:
The timings are getting a bit ridiculous. Show me ONE pro-gamer-replay were the 4 gate push HITS (!) at 5:35. I'm not talking about warpgate-tech finishing or warpgate-transformation finishing or stalker-warp-in finishing. I'm talking about the exact point in time when one zealot and 6 stalkers are starting to do nasty stuff to your base. Because that's when you need the immortal out. You don't need it when he starts warping in his stalkers, you don't even need it when he walks up the ramp. You need it once he realizes that you are, in fact, waiting for an immortal and are not 4-gating yourself. And I have never seen a game where this was the case at 5:35. So please, if somebody could show me a game where something like that happened, I'd appreciate it. After a 12 gate of course, 10 gates don't matter obviously.
On February 09 2011 21:40 Blessed wrote: kcdc if you have solved PvP you deserve to be hailed as a hero, for not just this but your PvT FE
Care to share the PvT build? I've been doing a 1 gate expo at 24 and then adding 2 gates and a robo, it works sometimes but then fails other times.
13 gate 15 gas 16 pylon 18 core 19 zealot (chrono to attack) 22 pylon stalker + warp gate (chrono to attack) stalker you will have around 28-32 supply while moving out, you will have a huge amount of minerals (300+) throw down a nexus + pylon 2 gates and a robo
chrono depends on the terran you can chrono your probes if you see a passive FE terran attack with your scouting probe, zealot, and stalker (together) and you'll be able to take out marines if he has any or possibly marauders. trading a zealot for a marauder is always good.
Sweet, definitely gonna try out this type of FE asap. When exactly do you throw down the additional gates and robo? do you save up after throwing down the nexus or do you wait to get mining going there first?
@KCDC -- Do you have any replays you can post of this? Or is there a thread out already?
I'm 3k diamond and tryed this build yesterday against a master protoss on metalopolis for the first time. I have to admit that i made some mistakes and became supply blocked at 26/26 for some seconds but my immortal came out right in time. Made also some mistakes in reenforcement but I defended the first aggression successfully and relaxed too much... he continued the pressure and killed me with mass zeals against my wounded force.
If you are interested in timings: He attacked me exactly (first hit) at 6:00 with 4 Stalker and 3 Zeals against 3 zeals 1 stalker
Quick question, If you defend the initial wave but he just keeps hitting you over and over, at any point do you drop a 3rd gate, or build more probes, or tech, or do you just have to keep warping in off 2 gates and getting immortals? At some point I gotta think he'll make more zealots than stalkers, so some adjustment may need to be made at that point.
On February 10 2011 01:44 Khaladas wrote: I'm definitely going to try this.
Quick question, If you defend the initial wave but he just keeps hitting you over and over, at any point do you drop a 3rd gate, or build more probes, or tech, or do you just have to keep warping in off 2 gates and getting immortals? At some point I gotta think he'll make more zealots than stalkers, so some adjustment may need to be made at that point.
Some of that was already addressed, I believe the zeal/ immortal combo will beat their stalker/ zeal combo. Other than that, not sure about the timings or path you take... I, personally, like the expo after defending the initial 1 or 2 pushes. If you see them turn around and try to get their expo up, I expo and push because they cannot do a round of warps/ get probes/ and expo all at the same time.
That was my problem, he saw my immortals and made only zeals. It is nearly impossible to make a defense out of 2 gate against 8 zeals. I tryed to add 3rd gate but it was too late. Probably warping in 1 sentry after you have defended the first 1-2 waves and cut the coming zeals into half on the ramp while the third gate is building.
On February 10 2011 01:55 loklok wrote: That was my problem, he saw my immortals and made only zeals. It is nearly impossible to make a defense out of 2 gate against 8 zeals. I tryed to add 3rd gate but it was too late. Probably warping in 1 sentry after you have defended the first 1-2 waves and cut the coming zeals into half on the ramp while the third gate is building.
Sounds like a good idea. I have not tried this out too much yet, as I just saw it today, but I would assume colossus tech would help out in this situation. Or would that be too late?
In my limited experience as a Master Protoss and having 2 gas 4gated, 1gas4gate, and k4gated extensively, as well as 3gate turbo Stalker... They all hit much earlier than the replays have shown.
I hit after the first wave on maps with ramps (re: all of them) because the 2nd wave, while huge, gets stuck at the choke, as such, they are 5:30-5:40 with Stalkers or Zealot Sentry depended on what I scouted. I really have not seen any build besides 10 gate into 3 gate or a 4 gate of your own hold off a properly executed 4 gate at any high level.
Sounds like a good idea. I have not tried this out too much yet, as I just saw it today, but I would assume colossus tech would help out in this situation. Or would that be too late?
First wave is easy. The second one is often again a zeal stalker mix and then he goes for only zeals. You can't tech to colossus, it would be way too late. I ended up with 2 immos (1 very low) some zeals and one stalker. Lost my zeals against the enemy zeals because my zeals were already wounded and then it's an easy game for the 4gate zeals because 2 zeals out of your 2 gate can't hold the line. Next time i try to warp 1 or 2 sentries after i defended the first waves and try to half the incoming zeals.
Sounds like a good idea. I have not tried this out too much yet, as I just saw it today, but I would assume colossus tech would help out in this situation. Or would that be too late?
First wave is easy. The second one is often again a zeal stalker mix and then he goes for only zeals. You can't tech to colossus, it would be way too late. I ended up with 2 immos (1 very low) some zeals and one stalker. Lost my zeals against the enemy zeals because my zeals were already wounded and then it's an easy game for the 4gate zeals because 2 zeals out of your 2 gate can't hold the line. Next time i try to warp 1 or 2 sentries after i defended the first waves and try to half the incoming zeals.
Another gate it is! I would assume that would be good enough?
I'd like to see a replay of this build vs. proper 4 gate hitting @5:40 with 1 zealot and 6 stalkers, then warping 3 zeals/1 stalk per cycle because that's what I would do. I assume you will absolutely need a sentry to kill all these meaty zealots, because producing out of two gates is ... well it offers little support for your immos.
Another gate it is! I would assume that would be good enough?
Jap i think thats the point. Will try that in some games.
I'd like to see a replay of this build vs. proper 4 gate hitting @5:40 with 1 zealot and 6 stalkers, then warping 3 zeals/1 stalk per cycle because that's what I would do. I assume you will absolutely need a sentry to kill all these meaty zealots, because producing out of two gates is ... well it offers little support for your immos.
It depends on map and how you manage the early stages. Do your enemy walk out with his first 3 units and trys to prevent your proxy pylon? With a bit poking you can delay the 4 gate and win some seconds. But that is not really the point. I mean people are adapting a build and try to execute it in their league and with their skill as best as possible. If it is working - mission completed. If they are becoming better and better they have to improve their build execution.
I think that is not reasonable to compare a strategy with "pro gamer timings" and say "no it is no good in the pro levels"
Edit: Barty why don't we try it out in some games? Just PM me your acc and i will contact you
1 gate robo is my opening of choice in PvP for all the reasons of the OP
When I've run this opening against a 4 gate, I've found that its weakness is the lack of gateways. IF your opponent gets to warp in up your ramp, and if he chooses to warp in 4 zealots, it might be GG.
However, the immortals make quick work of proxy pylons near your main (can usually take them out from the high ground), and immortals do to stalkers what banelings do to marines. It's awesome.
Tactics wise, if my opponent is 4 gating with mainly stalkers, I like to cut the stalker and make a sentry. This is a fine line i admit (and i've chosen to do this at the wrong times plenty, haha) but with a forcefield you can trap stalkers inside your ramp thus forcing them to engage your immortal(s). This is only viable if your warp cooldown timing at the moment allows for it, and of course is dependent on his composition.
I don't see why you only have 2 gates. You have an accumulation of resources off of two gates and a robo that could easily be put into pylons and zealots.
On February 09 2011 21:40 Blessed wrote: kcdc if you have solved PvP you deserve to be hailed as a hero, for not just this but your PvT FE
Care to share the PvT build? I've been doing a 1 gate expo at 24 and then adding 2 gates and a robo, it works sometimes but then fails other times.
13 gate 15 gas 16 pylon 18 core 19 zealot (chrono to attack) 22 pylon stalker + warp gate (chrono to attack) stalker you will have around 28-32 supply while moving out, you will have a huge amount of minerals (300+) throw down a nexus + pylon 2 gates and a robo
chrono depends on the terran you can chrono your probes if you see a passive FE terran attack with your scouting probe, zealot, and stalker (together) and you'll be able to take out marines if he has any or possibly marauders. trading a zealot for a marauder is always good.
Sweet, definitely gonna try out this type of FE asap. When exactly do you throw down the additional gates and robo? do you save up after throwing down the nexus or do you wait to get mining going there first?
@KCDC -- Do you have any replays you can post of this? Or is there a thread out already?
If you see a crap-load of MM, throw down 3 gates. If you see reasonable MM + tech, go 2 gates + robo.
When you get your nexus down, throw down a pylon near it. Now save up money and throw down the buildings, and get the 2nd gas.
On February 09 2011 21:35 gardis wrote: then i hope i will see soon 2 perfect executed builds
watch my replays on 1st page , the reason why my bo differes from kcdc (12 gate , no stalker) is because a good executed 4 gate push comes at 5.35-5.45 minute mark , and u wont have immortal out by that time if u follow kcdc build order .
Nearly forgot to question that:
The timings are getting a bit ridiculous. Show me ONE pro-gamer-replay were the 4 gate push HITS (!) at 5:35. I'm not talking about warpgate-tech finishing or warpgate-transformation finishing or stalker-warp-in finishing. I'm talking about the exact point in time when one zealot and 6 stalkers are starting to do nasty stuff to your base. Because that's when you need the immortal out. You don't need it when he starts warping in his stalkers, you don't even need it when he walks up the ramp. You need it once he realizes that you are, in fact, waiting for an immortal and are not 4-gating yourself. And I have never seen a game where this was the case at 5:35. So please, if somebody could show me a game where something like that happened, I'd appreciate it. After a 12 gate of course, 10 gates don't matter obviously.
Agree. You need your immortal before he's able to kill pylons/probes. You can use your first zealot and stalker to make sure he has to plant his proxy pylon a good distance from your ramp. You should also set your buildings back a distance from your ramp to buy more seconds. I'm ~3200 Masters and I get 4-gated A LOT. I'm obviously not facing pro level 4-gates, but I suspect that not many of you are either. When I execute cleanly, I don't have trouble getting the immortal in time to defend. I just ran a test against the computer. I had the immortal out at 5:55 exactly with 3 zealots and a stalker, and my 2 additional zealots warped in at 6:00 even. Off of a 12 gate, I'd imagine that you'd have to let them build a proxy pylon inside your main in order to lose a pylon by 5:55.
On February 10 2011 01:44 Khaladas wrote: I'm definitely going to try this.
Quick question, If you defend the initial wave but he just keeps hitting you over and over, at any point do you drop a 3rd gate, or build more probes, or tech, or do you just have to keep warping in off 2 gates and getting immortals? At some point I gotta think he'll make more zealots than stalkers, so some adjustment may need to be made at that point.
If you control your ramp and they're still being aggressive with 4 gate, just make a sentry and tech to collosi. The reason I don't make a sentry at the start is because the 100 gas delays the immortal too much, but at any point that you can afford a sentry, forcefields are still really good at defending gateways units coming through a choke.
On February 09 2011 13:37 Dsn4001 wrote: Dude, I love you kcdc.
Had a game PvP with a 2700 Masters player, he does the proper 4 gate at 5:40. Manage to hold. I even go afk a bit since I know I'm so far ahead.
He didnt do it right, he had only 5 units at 5:40 and not even at your door.
A proper 4 gate has 1 zealot 6 stalker at 5:45-5:55 at your door, and a pylon near the ramp/ledge to warp in and go through forcefields, besides, his micro was horrible.
kcdc, i was trying to do this with a friend last night, we tried for like 6-7 games con xel naga caverns, and all the time a perfect 4 gate would crush it and it was not even close, so we gave up. The huge problem was to stop the 2nd warpin of 4 zealots that comes just about the ramp/lege pylon finishes.
Im no great protoss, just 2700 master, but i thought i should share what i saw.
Do you have any replays against a well-microed, well-timed 4g?
On February 09 2011 13:37 Dsn4001 wrote: Dude, I love you kcdc.
Had a game PvP with a 2700 Masters player, he does the proper 4 gate at 5:40. Manage to hold. I even go afk a bit since I know I'm so far ahead.
He didnt do it right, he had only 5 units at 5:40 and not even at your door.
A proper 4 gate has 1 zealot 6 stalker at 5:45-5:55 at your door, and a pylon near the ramp/ledge to warp in and go through forcefields, besides, his micro was horrible.
kcdc, i was trying to do this with a friend last night, we tried for like 6-7 games con xel naga caverns, and all the time a perfect 4 gate would crush it and it was not even close, so we gave up. The huge problem was to stop the 2nd warpin of 4 zealots that comes just about the ramp/lege pylon finishes.
Im no great protoss, just 2700 master, but i thought i should share what i saw.
Do you have any replays against a well-microed, well-timed 4g?
Thanks in advance.
PD : I'm attaching one of last night replays.
Thanks for submitting a good replay with your comment. I don't have a perfect replay ready to go because it's not easy to find a game where both players play perfectly, but I can suggest some reasons you might not have had success in your testing. In that replay, I believe your opponent was opening with a gateway on 10. I won't make any promises as to whether this build is safe against a 4-gate after a gateway on 10. I do think that you could have held his attack, however, with a little better execution. Your warpgate tech was late--I don't think it finished until 6:14. His attack came at 6:00 even, at which time you could have 5 zealots, but you were at 3. You also fought at the ramp instead of backing up and fighting in the open, and perhaps most importantly, you let your immortal and stalker shoot his zealot. I think your immortal+stalker shot 4 times at a zealot which should have been 1.5 dead stalkers. I know that doesn't sound like it'd make the difference in that replay, but having 2 more zealots and killing 2 more stalkers at that first fight tips the scales significantly in the reinforcement war.
I'm the one who 4 gated, but taking the critiques and maybe we'll try it again later.
I think the whole problem IS to stop a 10 gate 4 gate, a 13 gate 4 gate is much less all-inish and gives you more time.
I personally believe that even with that micro you suggest, its way hard to stop the reinforcements from the 4 gater, and i'm not even getting into chronoboosting your 4 warp gates(Around the 3rd warpin) when you're at 100/100, i think my last 2 reinforcements were like 20 seconds apart...
Have you had luck against a well timed-well microed (I don't know if mine is, but certainly waaaaaaaaaaay better than the 4gate the other guy posted) 10gate, 4gate?
I don't think your build is bad at all, i do think it need some serious tweaking but you're on the right path, and maybe if we all try together we can make something solid of the PvP matchup!
I try not to waste my time on the forums anymore, but props to people that share good info. SC2 is way farther along than sc was in that regard. This build is the best mix of tech/power, but as others point out there is potential for a slight timing mismatch. That is mainly why poster on page1 showed 20probe no stalker version of this bo...so you can have 7z/2immo ~6:20, which is basically the ideal counter composition. Of course often you will be able to get away with more probes than 20 depending on how the game goes. Not much need for reps, just image all the slight variations and timing differences possible. As for 20probe 4gate, off 13gate-scout 6stalker/1z can be done ~5:45, with 6stalker/5z before 6:20 as ideal real numbers.
damn, this is solid. as fun as 4gating every game is, (all i play are pvps), i think i may change it up with this a little. hope to see positive results
On February 10 2011 08:33 lasershark wrote: it's a pretty good idea but... how does zealot/immortal beat zealot/stalker? lol
the 4-gater doesn't even have to engage with his zealots right away. he can just freely pick off enemy zealots until he greatly outnumbers him.
Because an immortal does 50 damage. Can a stalker do that?
Also, an immortal = 2 stalkers, but the immortal doesn't have it's dps "cut in half when it's shields are down. The 2 stalkers however, lose 50% dps when one goes down.
It doesn't matter if he tries to focus the immortals, that just means the zealots get free shots because immortals are powerful tanks. Also, it's quite hard to kite a unit that has 1 less range, even if it's faster.
Pretend for example, your stalker attacks an immortal 4 times, but if the immortal strikes once, then it has done 10 more damage. The stalker only does a pathetic 14 damage vs armored, but hardened shields allow it to be 10 only.
I'm liking 1gate1robo a lot better than 2gaterobo. My micro is really good so I have no problems and it works nicely against a marauder/tank/thor build too. I also hate 4gate/PvP but this makes it fun again.
On February 10 2011 07:14 VanGooL wrote: I think the whole problem IS to stop a 10 gate 4 gate, a 13 gate 4 gate is much less all-inish and gives you more time.
but 10gate is like : Ok guy i'm going to all in you, get ready. Meh, quite easy. 12/13 gate is more sneaky, so more effective.
Edit: @kcdc: your build seems cool, but i ffel you need a better/even micro.
What are you going to do if you see im going for a 10 gate 4 gate? A forge?
If you went 13 gate and you try to 4gate you're already behind, and i won't need much micro to roflstomp you.
The thing about 4 gate in PvP is even scouted, you ALMOST can't stop it if you don't do the same.
The only thing i see "viable" is to chrono a shitload of sentries and double ff the ramp (top and bottom), but if you screw it up you have no firepower at all...
On February 10 2011 09:34 VanGooL wrote: If you went 13 gate and you try to 4gate you're already behind, and i won't need much micro to roflstomp you.
i don't think so :/
On February 10 2011 09:34 VanGooL wrote: The thing about 4 gate in PvP is even scouted, you ALMOST can't stop it if you don't do the same.
agree. Same for 2gates
Btw builds that rely on fast warp can be held by BO that make units (from 3 gates, 4th later) and warp a bit slower, then upgrade warp come and you get a free production cycle.
The thing with 2 gate is, if it's proxied, you can defend it with gate forge(If it's in base you can even destroy the gates in the process), and if it isn't, going 2gate yourself stops it cold because of the distance between bases, even in SoW. It isn't like you can throw a forge when i have 4 gates because i can easily expand and you just sank 450 mins into the toilet.
In a 10-gate 4 gate, the first gateway is almost always active, producing zealot-stalker-stalker. That removes the advantage you could have due to the distance between bases, and me getting gate and core asap gets me wg earlier which makes everything earlier.
Try to do what i did in my replay with a 13 gate, and then show me the real-life timings.
Everytime someone went for 13 gate 4 gate and i went for 10 gate, it was easier for me.
If both go 10 gate 4 gate, then it's where mindgames occur, generally the defending player has the advantage.
PS : I apologize if my grammar isn't perfect, english isn't my main language. If you don't understand something please let me know.
VanGooL, 10 gate is an obvious sign your going to attack very early. If close positions (LT, Steps, Metal), the zelot could probaby kill a probe or two from a 12-13 gate. But the opponent will still have a probe or two advantage and eventually prevail with defenders advantage and better economy.
Im sure if scouted, gate-robo-gate wouldnt be used.
Good build, I ended up trying it last night opponent around 3k masters. He went 3 gates and a robo and i was 2 gates and a robo. I actually expanded while he was on one base. He attacked me with 2 ranged collossus while i had 2 collo without range 2 immortals a prism and some gateway stuff. I just had my immortals loaded up in the warp prism and dropped them behind his zealots and stalkers at the feet of his collossus. they just took out the collossus on their own extremely quickly.
On February 10 2011 09:57 VanGooL wrote: The thing with 2 gate is, if it's proxied, you can defend it with gate forge(If it's in base you can even destroy the gates in the process), and if it isn't, going 2gate yourself stops it cold because of the distance between bases, even in SoW. It isn't like you can throw a forge when i have 4 gates because i can easily expand and you just sank 450 mins into the toilet.
In a 10-gate 4 gate, the first gateway is almost always active, producing zealot-stalker-stalker. That removes the advantage you could have due to the distance between bases, and me getting gate and core asap gets me wg earlier which makes everything earlier.
Try to do what i did in my replay with a 13 gate, and then show me the real-life timings.
Everytime someone went for 13 gate 4 gate and i went for 10 gate, it was easier for me.
If both go 10 gate 4 gate, then it's where mindgames occur, generally the defending player has the advantage.
PS : I apologize if my grammar isn't perfect, english isn't my main language. If you don't understand something please let me know.
12/13 4gate > 10 4gate simply because of the fact that what winds up limiting your warp in speed is how fast you get your 4 gates up, which is obviously facilitated by a better economy. If getting wg ASAP was the main goal of the 1 gas 4gate people wouldnt use 3 chronos on probes and 1 on a stalker.
Also against 10 gate you can just mirror what he does and win by simple economy
Not only do i get an earlier gateway, but i also cut probes at 20.
There's no way you can hold an all in 4 gate by getting 13 gate and having more probes than i do, assuming we both are at the same skill level. Pylon at ramp not only removes defender advantage but also removes FF.
if you overmake probes that doesn't give you an advantage against an all-in, it's more of a disadvantage. That's the whole point of this, stopping an all-in 4 gate not doing the same while standing in a defensive position, and be better off to tech once the agression has been fend off.
On February 10 2011 10:07 VanGooL wrote: Not only do i get an earlier gateway, but i also cut probes at 20.
There's no way you can hold an all in 4 gate by getting 13 gate and having more probes than i do, assuming we both are at the same skill level. Pylon at ramp not only removes defender advantage but also removes FF.
if you overmake probes that doesn't give you an advantage against an all-in, it's more of a disadvantage. That's the whole point of this, stopping an all-in 4 gate not doing the same while standing in a defensive position, and be better off to tech once the agression has been fend off.
Are you on US server? We can run a test off of 10 gate if you want. What's your id.#?
Because an immortal does 50 damage. Can a stalker do that?
Also, an immortal = 2 stalkers, but the immortal doesn't have it's dps "cut in half when it's shields are down. The 2 stalkers however, lose 50% dps when one goes down.
It doesn't matter if he tries to focus the immortals, that just means the zealots get free shots because immortals are powerful tanks. Also, it's quite hard to kite a unit that has 1 less range, even if it's faster.
Pretend for example, your stalker attacks an immortal 4 times, but if the immortal strikes once, then it has done 10 more damage. The stalker only does a pathetic 14 damage vs armored, but hardened shields allow it to be 10 only.
Also, immortals don't over-kill.
obviously you don't micro when you play. immortals don't over-kill? so you don't tell them what targets to attack? lol
how are your zealots going to get free hits vs 5 stalkers? by running faster than them?
sorry but 5 stalkers > 1 stalker 1 immortal while i build up my zealot count.
We did it once on SoW and i slightly screwed up my timings (The 2nd warp of 4 zealots came wayyyy to late, with me having to retreat the stalkers to give vision to the pylon.), he held it well.
Nevertheless he did it way better than my friend.
He had to go to bed so we'll do it again some other day.
On February 09 2011 13:37 Dsn4001 wrote: Dude, I love you kcdc.
Had a game PvP with a 2700 Masters player, he does the proper 4 gate at 5:40. Manage to hold. I even go afk a bit since I know I'm so far ahead.
Unfortunately this player didn't get a zealot before stalker while cyber was going up. His warpgate tech hits 10 seconds quicker but he wasted so much time checking his base and not doing the purpose of the build. To kill you.
@5:50 you should have 1 zealot 6 stalker and you should poke up the ramp as soon as possible to know if you can just get up and kill him.
If he had done the build proper he would've had 1 zealot 6 stalker vs your 2 zealots 1 stalker and an immortal popping soon. Regardless he can kill your zealots and your stalker while warping in more zealots than you and kill your immortal the second it comes out.
This is a strategy I enjoy using in PvP games for a long time now. I, however, had modified it in a way that has proven exceptionally beneficial in my experience. I changed the build order slightly to get the build running for a good timing push or effective counter attack. By switching up the build order, you can get 4-6 zealots and BOTH immortals out by roughly 5:30-5:45 if performed flawlessly, all without cutting any probes. The 4-6 varies depending on how safe you feel early on and whether you produce your first zealot earlier or later. I didn't include the food count, but the desired order is there. You'll also note I purposely supply block myself momentarily by chronoboosting first. This is largely my personal preference and I have found it to be no detriment whatsoever compared to doing a pylon on 9. Just place everything the instant you can afford it. And remember that your goal is to get to the robo. Cut other structures and zealots/stalkers/sentries in so far as you feel safe.
Chronoboost Pylon Gateway Gas Pylon Cybernetics Pylon Robo
You want to chronoboost probes exclusively, then start saving chronoboost once you start the robo. Keep a steady output of zealots the moment you can afford them without cutting structures. Use your saved Chronoboost exclusively for the Immortals until they both come out. That's pretty much it. Throw down additional gateways as you can afford them. Obviously, you'll want to get the warpgate tech, but with this build you can delay it a fairly significant amount of time. Now I have my own little tactical twist that I also add for bonus kick, but it is by no means necessary and may even be a tad risky depending on the situation.
BONUS: build your robo outside of your base. If you want to be a tad cheesy, you can proxy it closer to his base. If you want to be more on the safe side, then the important thing is only that it is across from your entrance out of view of your opponent's path. Exact location depends on map and positioning. Be creative. The idea here is two fold.
1) it hides your tech 2) if he attacks first, his stalkers will be taking up the rear. Your zealots will block off your ramp and occupy his zealots at the front, while your immortals come out from behind (where the stalkers will inevitably be) and take THEM up the proverbial "rear." You'll have done enough damage in that short time before he can bring reinforcements that everything after that will be cleanup. If he doesn't attack, you still have your effective composition and an effective timing push that can easily be game ending. If it doesn't end the game, you'll still be in good position to transition through mid game.
This has also proven very useful against both Zerg and Terran, depending on their builds. Scouting is key.
Weaknesses of this build should be fairly obvious (air and mass zealots), so scout, scout, scout to make sure it's viable.
I've also adapted this build to a large number of circumstances where it held up even to builds that many would think could beat it with usually only subtle tweaks (such as sim-city and good micro) that let it function pretty much with little or no hiccups.
If anyone has questions feel free to ask. It's late here and I'm getting ready to go to sleep, so I'm probably not in my best frame of mind to make clear, coherent sentences. Also, this is a PvP thread, so I didn't elaborate on using this against T or Z. If you have any questions on those match-ups, let me know and I can go into depth on those.
I don't know why the 10 gate is starting to get discussed here...because imo that's like a completely different scenario. The classic hard 4-gate gets a 12/13 gate, spends 3 chronos on probes and still (!) cuts probes at 20. With a 10 gate you may get your first warp-in earlier but you don't have the economy to match the 1 zealot 6 stalker into immediate 4 zealot-warp.
Nowadays I only see 10 gating when the opponent tries to korean warpgate me. Against 10-gates I play completely differently, once I see a quick cybercore getting thrown down. I chrono-boost my first zealot before the core (my warpgates won't be done before his anyways), after the core I chrono-boost the 2nd zealot. With those 2 I go aggressively probe-harassing. Rushing-distance won't matter, because there's only 2 things that can happen. a) you kill much stuff in his base. Perfect. Mission accomplished, build stuff at home and be fine. b) he protects his base by building units. Perfect. Run your zealots back home, your economy is better now and his timings screwed. Use the 2 zealots and probes to defend against the initial warp-in, after your warpgates are done you have won.
Even if you don't like this playstyle at all, I think playing vs 10 gate requires a whole different approach. Also it's easy to scout it.
Got any idea how to beat a 3gate Voidray that is made to look like a 4gate?
It seems you have to take your 2nd gas immediately after the 4gate timing is over and drop another gateway and produce only stalkers, or you will most likely lose to a single voidray Stalker/Zealot or Stalker/3Void push..
On February 10 2011 19:37 Dommk wrote: Got any idea how to beat a 3gate Voidray that is made to look like a 4gate?
It seems you have to take your 2nd gas immediately after the 4gate timing is over and drop another gateway and produce only stalkers, or you will most likely lose to a single voidray Stalker/Zealot or Stalker/3Void push..
Better scouting imo. You need 2 gaz to support starport+vr.
On February 10 2011 19:37 Dommk wrote: Got any idea how to beat a 3gate Voidray that is made to look like a 4gate?
Since Voidrays need lots of gas, there's just no way a 3 gate voidray that hits in any near future would look like a 4 gate....I mean, the stargate alone costs fully 50 gas more than a robo, so does each individual voidray compared to an immortal. Gas-wise you can get an immortal + a stalker for each voidray. No way this could be done off one gas in any time where this would matter (meaning before you'd build an observer because no 4 gate comes)
I must say I like it even more when I get 12 Gate 14 Gas. The timing might not be as smooth as with your bo, but that way it looks EXACTLY like a 4 Gate. The worth of messing with your opponent's head can not be weighed in minerals.
It's so cool if you open like this and your opponent goes for a defensive 4 gate.
I ran ~5 tests on this with different types of 4 gates and it held easily in every case. The fastest 4 gate of the tests was when I 4 gated a friend who was trying the build for the 2nd time (first was on ladder) and despite my attacking before 5:50 and his getting the immortal out about 5-10 seconds later than I would (his 2nd try, cut him some slack), he held pretty easily. I really think this holds anything close to a standard 4 gate. Against something crazy like a K4G or an 8 gate into 3 gate stalker all-in, I don't think this is your best bet, but if they're making 20 probes before attacking, you're probably going to be ok with this opening.
Ok, I ended up reading the thread but I'm still a little queasy.
e.g. Shakuras, double 10 gate proxy. You scout after 13 gate and get to my base at maybe 17 supply? In less than a minute after that 3 zealots are in your base with 2 more following.
Seems a lateish gate with late scout is almost a BO loss to such things?
This is one of my favorite builds. IT can beat the 4 gate and u can transition into about anything u want. This is about the safest toss build i have found. kcdc does a great job on the detail of this build. If more toss players will start using this build then we might stop hearing how the 4 gate is unstoppable.
This is the 4 gate that you need to defend. all 10 gate 4 gates you can win by just getting some early gateways and chrono some stalkers and zealots and not warp tech and be ahead.
I have 30 s free time in your base with 2 z 4s vs 2 z 1s. With that time i can snipe 2 pylons, or maybe a robo, but it is more risky, if i only gets it down to 100 health and your immortal spawns or some probes and stop your mining or anything.
On February 10 2011 23:58 marvellosity wrote: Ok, I ended up reading the thread but I'm still a little queasy.
e.g. Shakuras, double 10 gate proxy. You scout after 13 gate and get to my base at maybe 17 supply? In less than a minute after that 3 zealots are in your base with 2 more following.
Seems a lateish gate with late scout is almost a BO loss to such things?
Ok.... so scout on 9? I don't get why you guys think this build would lose to cheese as opposed to other builds. Cheese is couted before you even put down your damn cyber. If you're worried about it scout on 9 and adjust accordingly.......
On February 10 2011 19:37 Dommk wrote: Got any idea how to beat a 3gate Voidray that is made to look like a 4gate?
Since Voidrays need lots of gas, there's just no way a 3 gate voidray that hits in any near future would look like a 4 gate....I mean, the stargate alone costs fully 50 gas more than a robo, so does each individual voidray compared to an immortal. Gas-wise you can get an immortal + a stalker for each voidray. No way this could be done off one gas in any time where this would matter (meaning before you'd build an observer because no 4 gate comes)
After he kills my scouting he grabs another gas and spends the next gas he has on a Stargate, the push comes when by the time you have your second immortal
Thanks kcdc, I have been using this to smash 12/13 Gate 4Gates on ladder.
It was even successful in a game on Steppes where a proxy Gateway Zealot rush killed a lot of my probes before I stopped it and then they switched to 4Gates with a huge econ advantage. With the early Immortal I was still able to hold.
If you see a 10gate, just immediately put some early pressure on them
I either build a second gateway in my base, or build a proxy forge/gateway near their base and then chrono zealots out of my first gateway while the proxies build. Then I push into their base with cannons and zealots. Here, I show you.
This is actually a very typical reaction I do when I see a 10 gate.
It is silly to require any build to be fine vs cheese without deviation. Of course if you see proxy gates or cannon rush you need to adapt. That doesn't make cheese a "counter" btw.
On February 10 2011 18:28 Strzyga wrote: This is a strategy I enjoy using in PvP games for a long time now. I, however, had modified it in a way that has proven exceptionally beneficial in my experience. I changed the build order slightly to get the build running for a good timing push or effective counter attack. By switching up the build order, you can get 4-6 zealots and BOTH immortals out by roughly 5:30-5:45 if performed flawlessly, all without cutting any probes. The 4-6 varies depending on how safe you feel early on and whether you produce your first zealot earlier or later. I didn't include the food count, but the desired order is there. You'll also note I purposely supply block myself momentarily by chronoboosting first. This is largely my personal preference and I have found it to be no detriment whatsoever compared to doing a pylon on 9. Just place everything the instant you can afford it. And remember that your goal is to get to the robo. Cut other structures and zealots/stalkers/sentries in so far as you feel safe.
Chronoboost Pylon Gateway Gas Pylon Cybernetics Pylon Robo
You want to chronoboost probes exclusively, then start saving chronoboost once you start the robo. Keep a steady output of zealots the moment you can afford them without cutting structures. Use your saved Chronoboost exclusively for the Immortals until they both come out. That's pretty much it. Throw down additional gateways as you can afford them. Obviously, you'll want to get the warpgate tech, but with this build you can delay it a fairly significant amount of time. Now I have my own little tactical twist that I also add for bonus kick, but it is by no means necessary and may even be a tad risky depending on the situation.
BONUS: build your robo outside of your base. If you want to be a tad cheesy, you can proxy it closer to his base. If you want to be more on the safe side, then the important thing is only that it is across from your entrance out of view of your opponent's path. Exact location depends on map and positioning. Be creative. The idea here is two fold.
1) it hides your tech 2) if he attacks first, his stalkers will be taking up the rear. Your zealots will block off your ramp and occupy his zealots at the front, while your immortals come out from behind (where the stalkers will inevitably be) and take THEM up the proverbial "rear." You'll have done enough damage in that short time before he can bring reinforcements that everything after that will be cleanup. If he doesn't attack, you still have your effective composition and an effective timing push that can easily be game ending. If it doesn't end the game, you'll still be in good position to transition through mid game.
This has also proven very useful against both Zerg and Terran, depending on their builds. Scouting is key.
Weaknesses of this build should be fairly obvious (air and mass zealots), so scout, scout, scout to make sure it's viable.
I've also adapted this build to a large number of circumstances where it held up even to builds that many would think could beat it with usually only subtle tweaks (such as sim-city and good micro) that let it function pretty much with little or no hiccups.
If anyone has questions feel free to ask. It's late here and I'm getting ready to go to sleep, so I'm probably not in my best frame of mind to make clear, coherent sentences. Also, this is a PvP thread, so I didn't elaborate on using this against T or Z. If you have any questions on those match-ups, let me know and I can go into depth on those.
Peace!
This is absolute nonsense. If you can show me a replay where you have 6 zealots and 2 immortals out by 5:30 gametime I will drop out of school, quit my job, say goodbye to all of my friends and family, and then immediately fake my death so that I may labor as a slave for you for the rest of my lifetime. I will spend the next 70 years making your bed, doing your dishes, doing your homework (I'm exceptionally good with numbers, I've been told I am a phenomenal writer, my programming skills are a bit weak but I have a working knowledge of C++ and Java, I have a nice smile and can bullshit my way out of anything else, I've got you covered), doing your job (this may be difficult depending on what kind of work you get into, but I will do my absolute best to assist you in whatever way I can to help you maintain economic self-reliance) raising your children (I'm a fantastic teacher and an upstanding moral citizen), performing sexual favors (without going into detail, I'm excellent in this area as well), or anything else that may please you. Seriously.
Despite my low post count, I lurk around here quite a bit. Tons of people make these ridiculous claims about being able to have incredible numbers of units out by certain points in the game and I've found that it usually simply isn't possible. I don't use any of these build order creators that people seem to covet, and I'm not saying that they can't be useful tools, but if they are telling you that you can pull things like this off, you have to take their results with a grain of salt.
I guess I came off as sort of upset there...
That was supposed to be more humorous than anything else but it ended up sounding like a rant, I'm not bashing on you or anything, just saying that it would make things a lot nicer around here if people stopped making claims like this without first testing them.
Onto the topic at hand...
This build is excellent! You have found the perfect answer to the dreaded 1 gas 20 probe 4 gate that plagues PvP at almost every level. It is easy to execute (none of this hyper-tuned adding and pulling of single probes off of and onto gas at multiple points in the game, which frees up our minds to focus on where the game is going), maintains the illusion of being aforementioned scary 4 gate until the point where you can deny scouting (forcing your opponent to prepare for the all in and not make some strong economic or very fast tech play), and doesn't lock you into one particular path (you have sooooo many options after holding off the 4 gate all in, you will be very far ahead on tech, ahead economically, generally able to expand safely, and very close to your opponent in terms of pure fighting power!) If you misread him and it is an economic variant of the 4 gate, you will be on an even footing economically, lightyears ahead in tech, and ahead in army power, again, giving you a ridiculous amount of options as to how to proceed. Seriously, it's brilliant!
I use your 1 gate expand vs Terran build all the time as well, you have a great mind for this sort of thing and I just wanted to thank you for your contributions to ze community. I am no longer filled with dread and dismay when I see a fellow protoss on the loading screen.
On February 10 2011 05:21 CecilSunkure wrote: I don't see why you only have 2 gates. You have an accumulation of resources off of two gates and a robo that could easily be put into pylons and zealots.
I went ahead and made two build orders: 3 Gate Voidray and 3 Gate Immortal. After a lot of tweaking I'm able to get the voidray out at 6:15, and the immortal can come out just before 6 minutes. Both scenarios leave you with 1 zealot 1 stalker + 3 warpin units and 2 chronoboosts (the 3 gate immortal build can be slightly modified to allow a zealot to be built while the immortal is being built, but I think you have to delay one of your warpins slightly, but it may be worth it). If you allow the 4 gater to get a very close proxy pylon, this becomes very risky. After about 20 games with a fellow Master level toss named CCalms, I decided that unless you have some way of forcing the enemy to proxy their pylon somewhere else other than at your ramp you have a very good chance of loosing. Since this is rather hard with only a zealot and a stalker I plan to try and create an aggressive opening that transitions into either immortals or voidrays (steal adel opening perhaps??).
My immortal comes out faster than kcdc's and you are left with another warpgate to use. You also scout at 9 with both variations. However, I don't believe it's possible to have a voidray come out with 3 warped in units from 3 warpgates any faster than 6 minutes 10 seconds.
The gas timings may look a bit difficult, but if you just practice both builds a little bit it becomes simple; the stargate build requires 150 vespene after you order a stalker and warpgate tech. Just make sure you end up with exactly 150 vespene and 150 minerals - if you have more than enough vespene that is less minerals for you which means delayed warpgates. For example: in the robo build you can very easily put 1 probe into the vespene after the first gate, and 2 more in at 17 supply (18 if scout probe doesn't die), and end up with the correct timing. [In the stargate build] Once you lay down your stargate you temporarily don't need any vespene, so pull off probes from vespene so you have at least 18 mining minerals so you can get those two gates and a pylon down asap.
Man I would feel so much safer getting that sentry instead of stalker first and then using the 75 minerals saved to get that 2nd gas going and putting a probe or 2 in there just to make up for the 50 gas difference of a sentry compared to a stalker, that FF 'should' buy you enough time to get the immortal and stalker out and you should have enough for another FF by the time the 4 gate comes.
I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out.
On February 11 2011 04:21 Roblicious wrote: Man I would feel so much safer getting that sentry instead of stalker first and then using the 75 minerals saved to get that 2nd gas going and putting a probe or 2 in there just to make up for the 50 gas difference of a sentry compared to a stalker, that FF 'should' buy you enough time to get the immortal and stalker out and you should have enough for another FF by the time the 4 gate comes.
I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out.
You cant get sentry firth on most maps. because 1 zealot+1 stalker > 1 zealot+ 1 sentry, and you can forcefield once to keep the zealot stalker out but then you have a sentry without forcefield that does very low dps.
On February 10 2011 18:28 Strzyga wrote: This is a strategy I enjoy using in PvP games for a long time now. I, however, had modified it in a way that has proven exceptionally beneficial in my experience. I changed the build order slightly to get the build running for a good timing push or effective counter attack. By switching up the build order, you can get 4-6 zealots and BOTH immortals out by roughly 5:30-5:45 if performed flawlessly, all without cutting any probes. The 4-6 varies depending on how safe you feel early on and whether you produce your first zealot earlier or later. I didn't include the food count, but the desired order is there. You'll also note I purposely supply block myself momentarily by chronoboosting first. This is largely my personal preference and I have found it to be no detriment whatsoever compared to doing a pylon on 9. Just place everything the instant you can afford it. And remember that your goal is to get to the robo. Cut other structures and zealots/stalkers/sentries in so far as you feel safe.
Chronoboost Pylon Gateway Gas Pylon Cybernetics Pylon Robo
You want to chronoboost probes exclusively, then start saving chronoboost once you start the robo. Keep a steady output of zealots the moment you can afford them without cutting structures. Use your saved Chronoboost exclusively for the Immortals until they both come out. That's pretty much it. Throw down additional gateways as you can afford them. Obviously, you'll want to get the warpgate tech, but with this build you can delay it a fairly significant amount of time. Now I have my own little tactical twist that I also add for bonus kick, but it is by no means necessary and may even be a tad risky depending on the situation.
BONUS: build your robo outside of your base. If you want to be a tad cheesy, you can proxy it closer to his base. If you want to be more on the safe side, then the important thing is only that it is across from your entrance out of view of your opponent's path. Exact location depends on map and positioning. Be creative. The idea here is two fold.
1) it hides your tech 2) if he attacks first, his stalkers will be taking up the rear. Your zealots will block off your ramp and occupy his zealots at the front, while your immortals come out from behind (where the stalkers will inevitably be) and take THEM up the proverbial "rear." You'll have done enough damage in that short time before he can bring reinforcements that everything after that will be cleanup. If he doesn't attack, you still have your effective composition and an effective timing push that can easily be game ending. If it doesn't end the game, you'll still be in good position to transition through mid game.
This has also proven very useful against both Zerg and Terran, depending on their builds. Scouting is key.
Weaknesses of this build should be fairly obvious (air and mass zealots), so scout, scout, scout to make sure it's viable.
I've also adapted this build to a large number of circumstances where it held up even to builds that many would think could beat it with usually only subtle tweaks (such as sim-city and good micro) that let it function pretty much with little or no hiccups.
If anyone has questions feel free to ask. It's late here and I'm getting ready to go to sleep, so I'm probably not in my best frame of mind to make clear, coherent sentences. Also, this is a PvP thread, so I didn't elaborate on using this against T or Z. If you have any questions on those match-ups, let me know and I can go into depth on those.
Peace!
This is absolute nonsense. If you can show me a replay where you have 6 zealots and 2 immortals out by 5:30 gametime I will drop out of school, quit my job, say goodbye to all of my friends and family, and then immediately fake my death so that I may labor as a slave for you for the rest of my lifetime. !
Well according to the build order program, its possible to have 6 zealots and two immortals out at 5:47. Of course, no one would be able to get one out at that exact time since the program calculates it can be done faster than most humans really can. Thats with cutting tons of probes though. With constant probes itd come out at 6:10 or so.
On February 11 2011 04:21 Roblicious wrote: Man I would feel so much safer getting that sentry instead of stalker first and then using the 75 minerals saved to get that 2nd gas going and putting a probe or 2 in there just to make up for the 50 gas difference of a sentry compared to a stalker, that FF 'should' buy you enough time to get the immortal and stalker out and you should have enough for another FF by the time the 4 gate comes.
I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out.
You cant get sentry firth on most maps. because 1 zealot+1 stalker > 1 zealot+ 1 sentry, and you can forcefield once to keep the zealot stalker out but then you have a sentry without forcefield that does very low dps.
Anyway to get zealot, stalker, sentry + 2nd gas and still get that first immortal out in a decent timespan? Will FFing the front buy you enough time to do so? If not then forget what I said and skip the sentry entirely lol
EDIT: I have seen strat videos and replays with pros who do a 4 gate vs 2/3 gate robo with pylon near the wall to warp in up top and they still get stomped by sentry FFs and then immortals right after. Im sure their 4 gate comes at the 5:45 min or whatever as well. All the while still producing gateway units/teching to collossi (when resources become available)
On February 11 2011 04:21 Roblicious wrote: Man I would feel so much safer getting that sentry instead of stalker first and then using the 75 minerals saved to get that 2nd gas going and putting a probe or 2 in there just to make up for the 50 gas difference of a sentry compared to a stalker, that FF 'should' buy you enough time to get the immortal and stalker out and you should have enough for another FF by the time the 4 gate comes.
I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out.
You cant get sentry firth on most maps. because 1 zealot+1 stalker > 1 zealot+ 1 sentry, and you can forcefield once to keep the zealot stalker out but then you have a sentry without forcefield that does very low dps.
Anyway to get zealot, stalker, sentry + 2nd gas and still get that first immortal out in a decent timespan? Will FFing the front buy you enough time to do so? If not then forget what I said and skip the sentry entirely lol
If you get only one sentry a forcefield is 15 s so you can maybe get that immortal out at 5:50, the 4 gater has one more warpin that he will wait for then so i think you might still be overwhelmed.
I played a lot of 4 gate vs 3 gate robo against a friend today and i won 15/16 with my 4 gate, i did loose when my timeing was 5 s late. It might be possible to hold a 4 gate with a 3 gate robo.
On February 11 2011 04:21 Roblicious wrote: Man I would feel so much safer getting that sentry instead of stalker first and then using the 75 minerals saved to get that 2nd gas going and putting a probe or 2 in there just to make up for the 50 gas difference of a sentry compared to a stalker, that FF 'should' buy you enough time to get the immortal and stalker out and you should have enough for another FF by the time the 4 gate comes.
I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out.
You cant get sentry firth on most maps. because 1 zealot+1 stalker > 1 zealot+ 1 sentry, and you can forcefield once to keep the zealot stalker out but then you have a sentry without forcefield that does very low dps.
Anyway to get zealot, stalker, sentry + 2nd gas and still get that first immortal out in a decent timespan? Will FFing the front buy you enough time to do so? If not then forget what I said and skip the sentry entirely lol
If you get only one sentry a forcefield is 15 s so you can maybe get that immortal out at 5:50, the 4 gater has one more warpin that he will wait for then so i think you might still be overwhelmed.
I played a lot of 4 gate vs 3 gate robo against a friend today and i won 15/16 with my 4 gate, i did loose when my timeing was 5 s late. It might be possible to hold a 4 gate with a 3 gate robo.
You guys should stop the theory-crafting in a [G] thread. If you want to make a claim then back it up with replays like I did. If you want to theory-craft go start your own thread. Posts like this clog up discussion of the build that was the original topic's focus.
I tried pushing a Terran with this build. 5 Zealots, 1 Stalker, 1 Immortal. It went surprisingly well. He went 3-Rax, with an equal Marine/Marauder comp. The Immortal was so MVP in dishing out damage.
On February 11 2011 04:21 Roblicious wrote: Man I would feel so much safer getting that sentry instead of stalker first and then using the 75 minerals saved to get that 2nd gas going and putting a probe or 2 in there just to make up for the 50 gas difference of a sentry compared to a stalker, that FF 'should' buy you enough time to get the immortal and stalker out and you should have enough for another FF by the time the 4 gate comes.
I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out.
You cant get sentry firth on most maps. because 1 zealot+1 stalker > 1 zealot+ 1 sentry, and you can forcefield once to keep the zealot stalker out but then you have a sentry without forcefield that does very low dps.
Anyway to get zealot, stalker, sentry + 2nd gas and still get that first immortal out in a decent timespan? Will FFing the front buy you enough time to do so? If not then forget what I said and skip the sentry entirely lol
If you get only one sentry a forcefield is 15 s so you can maybe get that immortal out at 5:50, the 4 gater has one more warpin that he will wait for then so i think you might still be overwhelmed.
I played a lot of 4 gate vs 3 gate robo against a friend today and i won 15/16 with my 4 gate, i did loose when my timeing was 5 s late. It might be possible to hold a 4 gate with a 3 gate robo.
You guys should stop the theory-crafting in a [G] thread. If you want to make a claim then back it up with replays like I did. If you want to theory-craft go start your own thread. Posts like this clog up discussion of the build that was the original topic's focus.
I have backed up the claim that a 4 gate from a 12 gate comes 30 s b4 he is ready to defend it, which is what kcdc:s build claims to be able to defend. and noone has commented on it. And when i lock for responces i see someone suggest kcdc can change his build and get a sentry firth then i felt obligated to explain why this isn't possible.
On February 11 2011 04:21 Roblicious wrote: Man I would feel so much safer getting that sentry instead of stalker first and then using the 75 minerals saved to get that 2nd gas going and putting a probe or 2 in there just to make up for the 50 gas difference of a sentry compared to a stalker, that FF 'should' buy you enough time to get the immortal and stalker out and you should have enough for another FF by the time the 4 gate comes.
I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out.
You cant get sentry firth on most maps. because 1 zealot+1 stalker > 1 zealot+ 1 sentry, and you can forcefield once to keep the zealot stalker out but then you have a sentry without forcefield that does very low dps.
Anyway to get zealot, stalker, sentry + 2nd gas and still get that first immortal out in a decent timespan? Will FFing the front buy you enough time to do so? If not then forget what I said and skip the sentry entirely lol
If you get only one sentry a forcefield is 15 s so you can maybe get that immortal out at 5:50, the 4 gater has one more warpin that he will wait for then so i think you might still be overwhelmed.
I played a lot of 4 gate vs 3 gate robo against a friend today and i won 15/16 with my 4 gate, i did loose when my timeing was 5 s late. It might be possible to hold a 4 gate with a 3 gate robo.
You guys should stop the theory-crafting in a [G] thread. If you want to make a claim then back it up with replays like I did. If you want to theory-craft go start your own thread. Posts like this clog up discussion of the build that was the original topic's focus.
I have backed up the claim that a 4 gate from a 12 gate comes 30 s b4 he is ready to defend it, which is what kcdc:s build claims to be able to defend. and noone has commented on it. And when i lock for responces i see someone suggest kcdc can change his build and get a sentry firth then i felt obligated to explain why this isn't possible.
You are correct. I am 2900 masters and was just matched versus a 3000 masters pvp on xel naga. He went for this build and lost to my standard 12gate 1gas 4gate.
The build flat doesn't work. Thanks for the post but should this thread be locked?
On February 11 2011 04:21 Roblicious wrote: Man I would feel so much safer getting that sentry instead of stalker first and then using the 75 minerals saved to get that 2nd gas going and putting a probe or 2 in there just to make up for the 50 gas difference of a sentry compared to a stalker, that FF 'should' buy you enough time to get the immortal and stalker out and you should have enough for another FF by the time the 4 gate comes.
I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out.
You cant get sentry firth on most maps. because 1 zealot+1 stalker > 1 zealot+ 1 sentry, and you can forcefield once to keep the zealot stalker out but then you have a sentry without forcefield that does very low dps.
Anyway to get zealot, stalker, sentry + 2nd gas and still get that first immortal out in a decent timespan? Will FFing the front buy you enough time to do so? If not then forget what I said and skip the sentry entirely lol
If you get only one sentry a forcefield is 15 s so you can maybe get that immortal out at 5:50, the 4 gater has one more warpin that he will wait for then so i think you might still be overwhelmed.
I played a lot of 4 gate vs 3 gate robo against a friend today and i won 15/16 with my 4 gate, i did loose when my timeing was 5 s late. It might be possible to hold a 4 gate with a 3 gate robo.
You guys should stop the theory-crafting in a [G] thread. If you want to make a claim then back it up with replays like I did. If you want to theory-craft go start your own thread. Posts like this clog up discussion of the build that was the original topic's focus.
I have backed up the claim that a 4 gate from a 12 gate comes 30 s b4 he is ready to defend it, which is what kcdc:s build claims to be able to defend. and noone has commented on it. And when i lock for responces i see someone suggest kcdc can change his build and get a sentry firth then i felt obligated to explain why this isn't possible.
You posted it 5 hours ago. I'm busy w/ work. I'll check it out when I can.
On February 11 2011 04:21 Roblicious wrote: Man I would feel so much safer getting that sentry instead of stalker first and then using the 75 minerals saved to get that 2nd gas going and putting a probe or 2 in there just to make up for the 50 gas difference of a sentry compared to a stalker, that FF 'should' buy you enough time to get the immortal and stalker out and you should have enough for another FF by the time the 4 gate comes.
I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out.
You cant get sentry firth on most maps. because 1 zealot+1 stalker > 1 zealot+ 1 sentry, and you can forcefield once to keep the zealot stalker out but then you have a sentry without forcefield that does very low dps.
Anyway to get zealot, stalker, sentry + 2nd gas and still get that first immortal out in a decent timespan? Will FFing the front buy you enough time to do so? If not then forget what I said and skip the sentry entirely lol
If you get only one sentry a forcefield is 15 s so you can maybe get that immortal out at 5:50, the 4 gater has one more warpin that he will wait for then so i think you might still be overwhelmed.
I played a lot of 4 gate vs 3 gate robo against a friend today and i won 15/16 with my 4 gate, i did loose when my timeing was 5 s late. It might be possible to hold a 4 gate with a 3 gate robo.
You guys should stop the theory-crafting in a [G] thread. If you want to make a claim then back it up with replays like I did. If you want to theory-craft go start your own thread. Posts like this clog up discussion of the build that was the original topic's focus.
I have backed up the claim that a 4 gate from a 12 gate comes 30 s b4 he is ready to defend it, which is what kcdc:s build claims to be able to defend. and noone has commented on it. And when i lock for responces i see someone suggest kcdc can change his build and get a sentry firth then i felt obligated to explain why this isn't possible.
You posted it 5 hours ago. I'm busy w/ work. I'll check it out when I can.
No hurry. :p I think however your thread is great outside of master league. It will help many people. And will make them think about gas and what impacts it does have on your resources.
Tried this build out several times, only really works if they are stupid enough to make stalkers rather than just killing you with 4gate zealot and the stalkers they already have. 3k masters if it matters. Any 4gate that cuts after 20 probes will likely kill this if they warp in predominantly zealots when they reach you.
On February 11 2011 09:00 Wr3k wrote: Tried this build out several times, only really works if they are stupid enough to make stalkers rather than just killing you with 4gate zealot and the stalkers they already have. 3k masters if it matters. Any 4gate that cuts after 20 probes will likely kill this if they warp in predominantly zealots when they reach you.
On February 11 2011 04:21 Roblicious wrote: Man I would feel so much safer getting that sentry instead of stalker first and then using the 75 minerals saved to get that 2nd gas going and putting a probe or 2 in there just to make up for the 50 gas difference of a sentry compared to a stalker, that FF 'should' buy you enough time to get the immortal and stalker out and you should have enough for another FF by the time the 4 gate comes.
I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out.
You cant get sentry firth on most maps. because 1 zealot+1 stalker > 1 zealot+ 1 sentry, and you can forcefield once to keep the zealot stalker out but then you have a sentry without forcefield that does very low dps.
Anyway to get zealot, stalker, sentry + 2nd gas and still get that first immortal out in a decent timespan? Will FFing the front buy you enough time to do so? If not then forget what I said and skip the sentry entirely lol
If you get only one sentry a forcefield is 15 s so you can maybe get that immortal out at 5:50, the 4 gater has one more warpin that he will wait for then so i think you might still be overwhelmed.
I played a lot of 4 gate vs 3 gate robo against a friend today and i won 15/16 with my 4 gate, i did loose when my timeing was 5 s late. It might be possible to hold a 4 gate with a 3 gate robo.
You guys should stop the theory-crafting in a [G] thread. If you want to make a claim then back it up with replays like I did. If you want to theory-craft go start your own thread. Posts like this clog up discussion of the build that was the original topic's focus.
I have backed up the claim that a 4 gate from a 12 gate comes 30 s b4 he is ready to defend it, which is what kcdc:s build claims to be able to defend. and noone has commented on it. And when i lock for responces i see someone suggest kcdc can change his build and get a sentry firth then i felt obligated to explain why this isn't possible.
You are correct. I am 2900 masters and was just matched versus a 3000 masters pvp on xel naga. He went for this build and lost to my standard 12gate 1gas 4gate.
The build flat doesn't work. Thanks for the post but should this thread be locked?
First, that guy didn't do the build discussed in this thread. He did something vaguely similar. Sort of. His build was gate, gate, robo, gate, and at 6 minutes, he had 3 zealots and a stalker and was still quite a ways from an immortal. At 6 minutes, my build has 5 zealots, a stalker, an immortal, and has started the second immortal. He also screwed up by letting you build your first proxy pylon at his ramp and he fought right there as soon as you came up. If he'd positioned his buildings back a bit from the ramp as I suggest in this guide, he would have had a much easier time defending.
As for your comment that the build flat doesn't work and that the thread should be locked, I would think that you'd at least provide a replay where one of the players does the build laid out in the guide before making such strong statements.
On February 11 2011 04:21 Roblicious wrote: Man I would feel so much safer getting that sentry instead of stalker first and then using the 75 minerals saved to get that 2nd gas going and putting a probe or 2 in there just to make up for the 50 gas difference of a sentry compared to a stalker, that FF 'should' buy you enough time to get the immortal and stalker out and you should have enough for another FF by the time the 4 gate comes.
I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out.
You cant get sentry firth on most maps. because 1 zealot+1 stalker > 1 zealot+ 1 sentry, and you can forcefield once to keep the zealot stalker out but then you have a sentry without forcefield that does very low dps.
Anyway to get zealot, stalker, sentry + 2nd gas and still get that first immortal out in a decent timespan? Will FFing the front buy you enough time to do so? If not then forget what I said and skip the sentry entirely lol
If you get only one sentry a forcefield is 15 s so you can maybe get that immortal out at 5:50, the 4 gater has one more warpin that he will wait for then so i think you might still be overwhelmed.
I played a lot of 4 gate vs 3 gate robo against a friend today and i won 15/16 with my 4 gate, i did loose when my timeing was 5 s late. It might be possible to hold a 4 gate with a 3 gate robo.
You guys should stop the theory-crafting in a [G] thread. If you want to make a claim then back it up with replays like I did. If you want to theory-craft go start your own thread. Posts like this clog up discussion of the build that was the original topic's focus.
I have backed up the claim that a 4 gate from a 12 gate comes 30 s b4 he is ready to defend it, which is what kcdc:s build claims to be able to defend. and noone has commented on it. And when i lock for responces i see someone suggest kcdc can change his build and get a sentry firth then i felt obligated to explain why this isn't possible.
You are correct. I am 2900 masters and was just matched versus a 3000 masters pvp on xel naga. He went for this build and lost to my standard 12gate 1gas 4gate.
The build flat doesn't work. Thanks for the post but should this thread be locked?
First, that guy didn't do the build discussed in this thread. He did something vaguely similar. Sort of. His build was gate, gate, robo, gate, and at 6 minutes, he had 3 zealots and a stalker and was still quite a ways from an immortal. At 6 minutes, my build has 5 zealots, a stalker, an immortal, and has started the second immortal. He also screwed up by letting you build your first proxy pylon at his ramp and he fought right there as soon as you came up. If he'd positioned his buildings back a bit from the ramp as I suggest in this guide, he would have had a much easier time defending.
As for your comment that the build flat doesn't work and that the thread should be locked, I would think that you'd at least provide a replay where one of the players does the build laid out in the guide before making such strong statements.
A 4gate hits at 5:45. Does it matter if you can get an immortal at 6 minutes?
On February 11 2011 04:21 Roblicious wrote: Man I would feel so much safer getting that sentry instead of stalker first and then using the 75 minerals saved to get that 2nd gas going and putting a probe or 2 in there just to make up for the 50 gas difference of a sentry compared to a stalker, that FF 'should' buy you enough time to get the immortal and stalker out and you should have enough for another FF by the time the 4 gate comes.
I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out.
You cant get sentry firth on most maps. because 1 zealot+1 stalker > 1 zealot+ 1 sentry, and you can forcefield once to keep the zealot stalker out but then you have a sentry without forcefield that does very low dps.
Anyway to get zealot, stalker, sentry + 2nd gas and still get that first immortal out in a decent timespan? Will FFing the front buy you enough time to do so? If not then forget what I said and skip the sentry entirely lol
If you get only one sentry a forcefield is 15 s so you can maybe get that immortal out at 5:50, the 4 gater has one more warpin that he will wait for then so i think you might still be overwhelmed.
I played a lot of 4 gate vs 3 gate robo against a friend today and i won 15/16 with my 4 gate, i did loose when my timeing was 5 s late. It might be possible to hold a 4 gate with a 3 gate robo.
You guys should stop the theory-crafting in a [G] thread. If you want to make a claim then back it up with replays like I did. If you want to theory-craft go start your own thread. Posts like this clog up discussion of the build that was the original topic's focus.
I have backed up the claim that a 4 gate from a 12 gate comes 30 s b4 he is ready to defend it, which is what kcdc:s build claims to be able to defend. and noone has commented on it. And when i lock for responces i see someone suggest kcdc can change his build and get a sentry firth then i felt obligated to explain why this isn't possible.
You are correct. I am 2900 masters and was just matched versus a 3000 masters pvp on xel naga. He went for this build and lost to my standard 12gate 1gas 4gate.
The build flat doesn't work. Thanks for the post but should this thread be locked?
First, that guy didn't do the build discussed in this thread. He did something vaguely similar. Sort of. His build was gate, gate, robo, gate, and at 6 minutes, he had 3 zealots and a stalker and was still quite a ways from an immortal. At 6 minutes, my build has 5 zealots, a stalker, an immortal, and has started the second immortal. He also screwed up by letting you build your first proxy pylon at his ramp and he fought right there as soon as you came up. If he'd positioned his buildings back a bit from the ramp as I suggest in this guide, he would have had a much easier time defending.
As for your comment that the build flat doesn't work and that the thread should be locked, I would think that you'd at least provide a replay where one of the players does the build laid out in the guide before making such strong statements.
A 4gate hits at 5:45. Does it matter if you can get an immortal at 6 minutes?
On February 11 2011 00:53 GrassEater wrote: Okey let me post an replay:
This is the 4 gate that you need to defend. all 10 gate 4 gates you can win by just getting some early gateways and chrono some stalkers and zealots and not warp tech and be ahead.
I have 30 s free time in your base with 2 z 4s vs 2 z 1s. With that time i can snipe 2 pylons, or maybe a robo, but it is more risky, if i only gets it down to 100 health and your immortal spawns or some probes and stop your mining or anything.
You were up the ramp at 5:37 which is really solid. Of course, you cheated a bit because you can't really get a pylon that close to the enemy base. Realistically, you're going to have to spend 5-10 more seconds walking over. And then remember that my buildings are as far away from the ramp as possible, and that my pylons are behind my gateways/robos. You're going to have 5-10 more seconds of walking to start hitting my builds. My immortal pops at 5:55. You might be able to get a probe, but there's no way you're killing a pylon. I'm pretty sure I can defend that consistently with this opening, but we can test it if you post your name.id.
This is absolute nonsense. If you can show me a replay where you have 6 zealots and 2 immortals out by 5:30 gametime I will drop out of school, quit my job, say goodbye to all of my friends and family, and then immediately fake my death so that I may labor as a slave for you for the rest of my lifetime. I will spend the next 70 years making your bed, doing your dishes, doing your homework (I'm exceptionally good with numbers, I've been told I am a phenomenal writer, my programming skills are a bit weak but I have a working knowledge of C++ and Java, I have a nice smile and can bullshit my way out of anything else, I've got you covered), doing your job (this may be difficult depending on what kind of work you get into, but I will do my absolute best to assist you in whatever way I can to help you maintain economic self-reliance) raising your children (I'm a fantastic teacher and an upstanding moral citizen), performing sexual favors (without going into detail, I'm excellent in this area as well), or anything else that may please you. Seriously.
Despite my low post count, I lurk around here quite a bit. Tons of people make these ridiculous claims about being able to have incredible numbers of units out by certain points in the game and I've found that it usually simply isn't possible. I don't use any of these build order creators that people seem to covet, and I'm not saying that they can't be useful tools, but if they are telling you that you can pull things like this off, you have to take their results with a grain of salt.
I guess I came off as sort of upset there...
That was supposed to be more humorous than anything else but it ended up sounding like a rant, I'm not bashing on you or anything, just saying that it would make things a lot nicer around here if people stopped making claims like this without first testing them.
Onto the topic at hand...
It is neither lies, hogwash, OR poppycock, for that matter. You'll also notice I gave some ranges there. 6 zealot and two immortals is best case scenario and rarely plays out that way. 4 zealots and 2 immortals is far more likely in many circumstances. The time range is also BETWEEN 5:30 and 5:45. Even in the later end of that time range, it is well within time for an effective defense/counter attack. And 4 zealots is more than enough to block off your ramp long enough for the Immortals to give them one hell of a bad day. Also, as I said, it relies on the the idea that he will be relatively stalker heavy, which is fairly likely. And if you scout that he isn't, there is room to adjust.
Also I'll note that I have not for this build, or EVER for that matter, used one of the automated build mods that you mention. I'm all home grown. It's been a while since I've done this build as I have moved on to experimenting with other things, but I'll see if I can get a decent replay of my build in action. It may or may not take me a few days as I won't have much time free between today and Monday.
And I did play this build...I practiced it myself without input from anyone else. Not claiming to be the best player on earth (far from it), but I did practice this build a lot. It's got tight tolerances, but it can be done.
On February 11 2011 00:53 GrassEater wrote: Okey let me post an replay:
This is the 4 gate that you need to defend. all 10 gate 4 gates you can win by just getting some early gateways and chrono some stalkers and zealots and not warp tech and be ahead.
I have 30 s free time in your base with 2 z 4s vs 2 z 1s. With that time i can snipe 2 pylons, or maybe a robo, but it is more risky, if i only gets it down to 100 health and your immortal spawns or some probes and stop your mining or anything.
You were up the ramp at 5:37 which is really solid. Of course, you cheated a bit because you can't really get a pylon that close to the enemy base. Realistically, you're going to have to spend 5-10 more seconds walking over. And then remember that my buildings are as far away from the ramp as possible, and that my pylons are behind my gateways/robos. You're going to have 5-10 more seconds of walking to start hitting my builds. My immortal pops at 5:55. You might be able to get a probe, but there's no way you're killing a pylon. I'm pretty sure I can defend that consistently with this opening, but we can test it if you post your name.id.
Ye it seems the build will have some trouble vs a perfectly performed 4 gate, which is basically the one that grasseater is using in his replay vs the computer. The only mistake in grasseaters build is getting 19 instead of 20 probes as the 20th probe means you can actually afford to warp in 4 zealots for your 2nd round whereas with 19 you are slightly cutting it, remember there is 1 probe needed for the proxy so 20 probes means 16 on minerals, ie the ideal number.
Nevertheless a slightly less then ideal 4 gate realistically hits at the base is 5 min 40. In practice you willl have to put the proxy pylon a bit further away which delays the build.
Either way I´m having serious doubts IF the 1 gas robo build can be tuned to beat this. The problem is this intricated but there are some limitations to what you can do: 1. you need the gate before gas or the build is simply too vulnerable to cheese. 2. you need a stalker fairly early in the build to stop scouting as a result of 1 and 2 you can't get an immortal out before 5:40 while also being able to quee up a 2nd immortal right away. If you don't do so you will either have a big problem with the first 5 or 6 stalkers or with the 2nd wave attack of 5z + 6s. Only by cutting the stalker have I found it possible to get the immortals out in time, but that seriously alters the build as that makes the build easy to scout then.
If you don't really worry about being scouted (or just hope they pull back their scout because they suspect your first unit after cybercore will be a stalker) you might as well go with a sentry first strategy which can defend a 4 gate with good micro and forcefields.
For example I like this build for a 2 gate robo defense with 2 gas: 9 pylon 13 gate + scout 14 gas 16 pylon 18 cyber 18 2nd gas -zealot @ 100% cyber, sentry and WG tech. chrono both. pylon robo stalker after sentry 2nd gate pylon 2nd sentry
When they push you'll have 1 sentry with a 2nd just about to pop. The first guardian shield should be able to delay enough for your 2nd sentry to pop and the 2nd shield enough for your immortal to come out. As long as you split them every time they come up the ramp you can pick off zealots without losing anything and you can hold the 4 gate. Problem with the build is that it's easy to scout and has problems against a fast expand build, which is basically the problem with any sentry heavy build...
10 pylon 10 Gateway and scout 10 probe* 11 probe* 14 Assimilator >+3 15 Pylon 16 Cybernetics Core 17 Zealot* (Chrono the last 10 seconds and it goes perfect into the Stalker) 21 Pylon 21 Stalker 23 Warpgate*** 24 Assimilator >+3 25 Stalker (cut probes here and you can make it a 2 gate Robo) 28 Robotics Facility 29 Zealot 32 Pylon [2] 33 Transform to Warpgate 34 Immortal** 38 Sentry 41 Pylon 42 Observer -This can be an immortal if you are getting 4 gated by cutting probes and making the next unit a Zealot 43 Sentry
The BO gets Zealot, Stalker (these hit before the opponent can get his own Zealot Stalker on most 2 player maps), Stalker, Zealot, Sentry, Immortal by 6 minutes, follow it up with a Sentry at 6:10ish. Your first sentry is early enough to FF, your 2nd sentry FFs, and your first 1 gets more energy for a 3rd, so you try to cut the 4gate in half the first and 2nd times while blocking it the last time. It's tight but you can hold it. I am working on getting a replay against a decent P so that I can show it holds against ideal play decently and is very strong against non-perfects. Im Master's with an infy bonus pool cause I haven't ladderred since med school exams got intense.
On February 11 2011 10:44 SaJa wrote: Sentry is a joke, do you know why ? Because it won't save you on some maps like scrab station or blistering -.-
Why do people think all BOs are supposed to work on all maps? One BO, One map, One MU. If it works other places that's great. I base my BOs on Meta and XC.
kcdc, just wanted to say a big "Thank You". I really love reading your guides. I remember I used to dread playing against Terran...until I stumbled upon your PvT FE guide, and now I embrace it.
I've always played the typical 4Gate but I've wanted to do something else besides the norm, that and I didn't like not being about to get a second scout out so late because of the timing of the observer. With this PvP build, it seems I will also feel much more comfortable with being able to get an observer out after the second immortal.
I'm already using your PvT FE against Terran and will start practicing this one against Protoss.
For Zerg, I'm trying to work on a Gateway,Forge,Stargate,Gateway,Gateway build against Zerg where I try to pump out 4 Phoenixes asap to kill Queens/Overlords while then transitioning to Zealot/Stalker after Zerg tries to counter the Phoenixes. Forge is used for defense if necessary but mainly for the attack upgrade against zerglings. This build is still rough around the edges but I'm now looking for examples around here where there are replays with a nice tight build order.
It's just really fun to play with three distinctly different build orders. I'm still in Platinum and working my way toward Diamond but just wanted to say thanks, your help is greatly appreciated.
On February 11 2011 10:31 Markwerf wrote: Ye it seems the build will have some trouble vs a perfectly performed 4 gate, which is basically the one that grasseater is using in his replay vs the computer. The only mistake in grasseaters build is getting 19 instead of 20 probes as the 20th probe means you can actually afford to warp in 4 zealots for your 2nd round whereas with 19 you are slightly cutting it, remember there is 1 probe needed for the proxy so 20 probes means 16 on minerals, ie the ideal number.
Nevertheless a slightly less then ideal 4 gate realistically hits at the base is 5 min 40. In practice you willl have to put the proxy pylon a bit further away which delays the build.
Either way I´m having serious doubts IF the 1 gas robo build can be tuned to beat this. The problem is this intricated but there are some limitations to what you can do: 1. you need the gate before gas or the build is simply too vulnerable to cheese. 2. you need a stalker fairly early in the build to stop scouting as a result of 1 and 2 you can't get an immortal out before 5:40 while also being able to quee up a 2nd immortal right away. If you don't do so you will either have a big problem with the first 5 or 6 stalkers or with the 2nd wave attack of 5z + 6s. Only by cutting the stalker have I found it possible to get the immortals out in time, but that seriously alters the build as that makes the build easy to scout then.
If you don't really worry about being scouted (or just hope they pull back their scout because they suspect your first unit after cybercore will be a stalker) you might as well go with a sentry first strategy which can defend a 4 gate with good micro and forcefields.
For example I like this build for a 2 gate robo defense with 2 gas: 9 pylon 13 gate + scout 14 gas 16 pylon 18 cyber 18 2nd gas -zealot @ 100% cyber, sentry and WG tech. chrono both. pylon robo stalker after sentry 2nd gate pylon 2nd sentry
When they push you'll have 1 sentry with a 2nd just about to pop. The first guardian shield should be able to delay enough for your 2nd sentry to pop and the 2nd shield enough for your immortal to come out. As long as you split them every time they come up the ramp you can pick off zealots without losing anything and you can hold the 4 gate. Problem with the build is that it's easy to scout and has problems against a fast expand build, which is basically the problem with any sentry heavy build...
I've run probably 15 test games against 4 gates in the last few days against mid-masters players (unfortunately not high masters--highest ranked was XiExo at ~3200) and the 2-gate robo build beat the all-in 4 gate handily all but one of those times. It requires good execution and micro, but defending 4 gate always does. I need Minigun to help me run some tests for an injection of credibility.
We practiced today i think that 3 times, i could only beat him once and it was because of micro. Chasing the immortals with zealots while hitting the rest with the stalkers is the way to go to beat it, otherwise you're just plain dead.
I believe it's a solid build, just not invincible.
This is a very good strategy and tried it out myself but the problems I found with it is are: Problem 1: You're left with mostly zealots, this doesn't help a lot against 4gates cause players get mostly stalkers, and with good stalker micro , you're zealots will die fast.
Problem 2: If the build goes as you say and when the 4gate comes you have 1 Stalker and 1 Immortal, after your zealots die you're kind of left in a bad spot, possibly you could have 1 more Immortal in production, and 2 Stalkers from the Warp Gates, assuming the person that does the 4gate reinforces you're screwed even if you pull probes. So the problem is that I find myself out of gas.
The build is very good I like it a lot :D but I don't have enough gas so that I can get at least 2 sentries with out leaving my power units low.
Try doing the build with 2 gases, it comes better with me.
I tested the build against grasseater who does a solid build order for the 4 gate. The thing is, even up till 3500 master people still suck at 4 gating by doing lousy versions of it.
The best 4 gate by far is a 12 gate into 20 probe 4 gate which seems to hit just too early for this to manage. You can get out the immortal with some dancing etc. but the thing is it won´t do that much. The problem is immortals take 4 shots to kill a stalker, thus they overkill everytime. It is too easy for the 4 gater to avoid having his stalkers killed by your immortal and then you simply die because the 4 gater has a few more units.
Here are 2 replays of a few test games we did: the first I win but it's really close and is mostly because of faulty stalker micro on his part. the second one my immortal can't reach his stalkers easily enough and the build just falls apart.
Either way i'm sure this build does not reliable hold the GOOD 4 gate. Especially not if they go a little more zealot heavy, which makes it even harder to reach the stalkers with your immortals. And then I also slightly dislike the quick gas coupled with the late gate and scouting which makes the build very susceptible to cheese. You should still be able to hold it off but if you ever scout it late it will be damn hard.
edit: How well the strat works also seems to depend a fair bit on how efficient the geyser you got it. Some geysers get a little less gas and then you are really in trouble, always make sure to get a 'good' geyser with this strat.
The match i really microed and got my timings right it was totally one-sided, so i think it's left to the player. (He didn't contested the pylon either, that coulda helped (or not, losing a zealot to stalkers))
I think this build can put up a nice fight if done well, i just don't think it's a guaranteed victory.
On February 11 2011 12:25 Markwerf wrote: I tested the build against grasseater who does a solid build order for the 4 gate. The thing is, even up till 3500 master people still suck at 4 gating by doing lousy versions of it.
The best 4 gate by far is a 12 gate into 20 probe 4 gate which seems to hit just too early for this to manage. You can get out the immortal with some dancing etc. but the thing is it won´t do that much. The problem is immortals take 4 shots to kill a stalker, thus they overkill everytime. It is too easy for the 4 gater to avoid having his stalkers killed by your immortal and then you simply die because the 4 gater has a few more units.
Here are 2 replays of a few test games we did: the first I win but it's really close and is mostly because of faulty stalker micro on his part. the second one my immortal can't reach his stalkers easily enough and the build just falls apart.
Either way i'm sure this build does not reliable hold the GOOD 4 gate. Especially not if they go a little more zealot heavy, which makes it even harder to reach the stalkers with your immortals. And then I also slightly dislike the quick gas coupled with the late gate and scouting which makes the build very susceptible to cheese. You should still be able to hold it off but if you ever scout it late it will be damn hard.
Only watched the 2nd replay. It seems pretty clear that the reason you lost that one was because you didn't warp in the 4th and 5th zealots till 6:15 after your immortal was about to die. If you lose your immortal for free like that, you're going to lose every time. If you execute cleanly, you have 5 zealots to his 1, so your zealots get in his way rather than the other way around. It'll hold--it just takes more practice. I'm sure your opponent had hundreds of games of 4 gate practice....
On February 11 2011 12:25 Markwerf wrote: I tested the build against grasseater who does a solid build order for the 4 gate. The thing is, even up till 3500 master people still suck at 4 gating by doing lousy versions of it.
The best 4 gate by far is a 12 gate into 20 probe 4 gate which seems to hit just too early for this to manage. You can get out the immortal with some dancing etc. but the thing is it won´t do that much. The problem is immortals take 4 shots to kill a stalker, thus they overkill everytime. It is too easy for the 4 gater to avoid having his stalkers killed by your immortal and then you simply die because the 4 gater has a few more units.
Here are 2 replays of a few test games we did: the first I win but it's really close and is mostly because of faulty stalker micro on his part. the second one my immortal can't reach his stalkers easily enough and the build just falls apart.
Either way i'm sure this build does not reliable hold the GOOD 4 gate. Especially not if they go a little more zealot heavy, which makes it even harder to reach the stalkers with your immortals. And then I also slightly dislike the quick gas coupled with the late gate and scouting which makes the build very susceptible to cheese. You should still be able to hold it off but if you ever scout it late it will be damn hard.
Only watched the 2nd replay. It seems pretty clear that the reason you lost that one was because you didn't warp in the 4th and 5th zealots till 6:15 after your immortal was about to die. If you lose your immortal for free like that, you're going to lose every time. If you execute cleanly, you have 5 zealots to his 1, so your zealots get in his way rather than the other way around. It'll hold--it just takes more practice. I'm sure your opponent had hundreds of games of 4 gate practice....
Yes it wasn't executed perfectly but I'm quite positive that with perfect executions on both sides the 4 gater will win. The first moment he pushes he has 6 stalkers 1 z vs at most 5z 1s. You already have to pull back and delay well then to get your immortal out. After that he can have 5z 6s vs your 5z 1 immo for a while while you wait to get that 2nd immo out. Note that often you'll have just a slightly hiccup with the 2nd immo as you need to wait a bit on gas. You also don't have full chronoboost for the 2nd immo anymore so it takes a little longer. A good 4 gater can do enough damage imo in the time you are between your first and 2nd immo that you will lose.
On February 11 2011 12:25 Markwerf wrote: I tested the build against grasseater who does a solid build order for the 4 gate. The thing is, even up till 3500 master people still suck at 4 gating by doing lousy versions of it.
The best 4 gate by far is a 12 gate into 20 probe 4 gate which seems to hit just too early for this to manage. You can get out the immortal with some dancing etc. but the thing is it won´t do that much. The problem is immortals take 4 shots to kill a stalker, thus they overkill everytime. It is too easy for the 4 gater to avoid having his stalkers killed by your immortal and then you simply die because the 4 gater has a few more units.
Here are 2 replays of a few test games we did: the first I win but it's really close and is mostly because of faulty stalker micro on his part. the second one my immortal can't reach his stalkers easily enough and the build just falls apart.
Either way i'm sure this build does not reliable hold the GOOD 4 gate. Especially not if they go a little more zealot heavy, which makes it even harder to reach the stalkers with your immortals. And then I also slightly dislike the quick gas coupled with the late gate and scouting which makes the build very susceptible to cheese. You should still be able to hold it off but if you ever scout it late it will be damn hard.
Only watched the 2nd replay. It seems pretty clear that the reason you lost that one was because you didn't warp in the 4th and 5th zealots till 6:15 after your immortal was about to die. If you lose your immortal for free like that, you're going to lose every time. If you execute cleanly, you have 5 zealots to his 1, so your zealots get in his way rather than the other way around. It'll hold--it just takes more practice. I'm sure your opponent had hundreds of games of 4 gate practice....
Believe it or not. I am better at macro then micro. What i am really bad at is multitasking. But to execute a build-order without big mistakes is not that hard. That game in the middle of all micro i somewhat got the warp-in 5 s to late, and he got thankfully also got his zealot warp in also to late.
But after playing vs it i believe that it often comes down to a micro battle and the one with the best execution wins.
Is there anyone on the NA server who would be interesting in running the vs 4gate tests with me? I'd like to follow this up in the spirit of the scientific method. I can hit either side of this BO, don't care. But let's figure out if we can improve this at all or what.
EDIT:
Improved the BO, will have a replay soon.
9 Pylon 10 Probe* 11 Probe* 13 Gateway and Scout 13 Assimilator > +3 16 Pylon 17 Cybernetics Core 18 Zealot 21 pylon 21 Stalker* 23 Warpgate*** 25 Robotics Facility then Immortal* 26 Gateway then Transform to Warpgate then Stalker 27 Zealot then Transform to Warpgate then Zealot 29 Pylon 35 Pylon
I cut off 20-30s. You get 1 Stalker in place of a Zealot and your Immortal is 20+s sooner. I think this will hold a 4gate easy. Congrats KCDC at almost getting the optimal build.
EDIT 2:
I think 1 Gate 2 gas Robo is better... 2 Immortals before 6:30, Sentry by 5:45, 3 Z, 1 S, and another Sentry by 6:15 so you can FF into 2 Immortals and throw up another Gate if needed.
I watched the replay from steppes from markwerf. I think it boiled down to 2 things for you. 1) losing that first unit to his initial units. 2) your second 2 zealot warp in i believe warped in on top of units that could attack them. One of them i believe died before attacking and the other one took shield damage. IMO you should just run and warp in somewhere safe. Additionally I felt the probe pull was a little premature as your immortal was about to come out and he couldnt have sniped a building before it did. I think if you had wait a bit to probe pull and used them to prevent stalker kiting a bit you would have held it in the first game. I guess thats actually 3 things, but in a build that requires such precision to counter (unless 4 gating yourself in which case it takes more micro precision) I dont think these mistakes will allow you to hold it.
Ive only been able to ladder a little bit to test this build out but its pretty easy to execute and im 2-0 with it. I was afraid it might lose to a delayed 4 gate or something but the second immortal really shuts that down. My last game ~3k masters i ended up with more collossuss, range, my 2 leftover immortals, and a warp prism. in my attack I just used the prism to drop the immortals at the feet of the prism and shift click the two he was able to produce by then after transitioning to 4 gate. 2 gate 1 robo army was vastly superior to his 4 gate + robo army but if i had wait a little longer that may have not been the case. I think its important to constantly check up on them with the observer after the early stages of the game to find your timing. Actually in both games ive done this build ive done the warp prism technique.. i can see it becoming a staple... its really powerful. I drop the immortals where i need them usually without any troubles (their switch to collossus means they have fuckall for stalkers)... then one i drop them i fly the prism into the mineral line and warp in 2 zealots.
The one thing I havent really decided is if I should add a third gate or not as a standard at some point.
This is a strong opener, KCDC is now the author of two of my favorite builds (though I need more time with this one)
Look the major problem in those reps is you made too many probes, you cant expect to get away with more probes. Kcdc noted how you guys are comparing a well honed 4gate, to a newer build. Here is 20probe BO you can test: 9p, 13Gate-s, 13gas, 16p, 17core, 18z, 22wg+stalker, 24robo+Gate+zealot, 26p, zealot, immortal, pylon, warp 2zealot. ~5:50 5z/1stalker/1immortal
Perfect 20probe 4gate would be around 6stalker/1z <5:45, +4z ~6:15. As you can see there is still the gap just before immortal and just after. This is what gives 4gate some edge. Which is why the no stalker version deserves consideration for the faster immortals. The BO is not much different than the above to test.
On February 11 2011 14:00 Knickknack wrote: Look the major problem in those reps is you made too many probes, you cant expect to get away with more probes. Kcdc noted how you guys are comparing a well honed 4gate, to a newer build. Here is 20probe BO you can test: 9p, 13Gate-s, 13gas, 16p, 17core, 18z, 22wg+stalker, 24robo+Gate+zealot, 26p, zealot, immortal, pylon, warp 2zealot. ~5:50 5z/1stalker/1immortal
Perfect 20probe 4gate would be around 6stalker/1z <5:45, +4z ~6:15. As you can see there is still the gap just before immortal and just after. This is what gives 4gate some edge. Which is why the no stalker version deserves consideration for the faster immortals. The BO is not much different than the above to test.
Yes, I wasn't specific about probe cuts in the BO because there are a lot of variables that change how many probes you can afford to get. If you see 12 gate with core ahead of yours, max saved chrono, and probe cutting well before the stalker is out, that's got a different response than a 13 gate with 75 saved energy that isn't cutting probes in view of your scout.
Against the 100% scoutable 19 or 20 probe 4 gate with max saved energy, my preferred BO cuts probes at 28/34 (or 27/34 is I lost my scout) which leaves me with 22 probes (21 if I lost my scout). I seem to defend the 4 gates I run into on ladder at ~3250 Masters pretty easily. It's possible that I've just outplayed my opponents all of those times, but I think this build really has a significant edge against aggressive 4 gates. If people want to run more tests, please execute at least reasonably cleanly. It's pretty easy to get the 5 z, 1 s, and 1 immo by 6 min (you should really have it @ 5:55-5:57), so if you're 10 seconds late on the immortal or the zealots and you lose, run another test before submitting the replay. It's like going eco 4 gate against hard 4 gate and engaging when you're a warp cycle behind. If you don't execute well, you lose no matter what build you choose.
Also, if you observed a 5 second gap where the 4 gater has the stronger army, that's really not a problem at all. Even if he's warping at your ramp inside your main, that's not enough time for him to make it to your probe line. Realistically, you can expect a 4 gater to warp in at least ~5-10 sec away from your ramp, and it will take another ~5-10 sec to make it to your buildings at which point he can start hitting a pylon. A pylon will take 5 shots to kill, so you can afford to wait another ~3 seconds there before you really have to engage.
On February 11 2011 13:12 Sleight wrote: Is there anyone on the NA server who would be interesting in running the vs 4gate tests with me? I'd like to follow this up in the spirit of the scientific method. I can hit either side of this BO, don't care. But let's figure out if we can improve this at all or what.
EDIT:
Improved the BO, will have a replay soon.
9 Pylon 10 Probe* 11 Probe* 13 Gateway and Scout 13 Assimilator > +3 16 Pylon 17 Cybernetics Core 18 Zealot 21 pylon 21 Stalker* 23 Warpgate*** 25 Robotics Facility then Immortal* 26 Gateway then Transform to Warpgate then Stalker 27 Zealot then Transform to Warpgate then Zealot 29 Pylon 35 Pylon
I cut off 20-30s. You get 1 Stalker in place of a Zealot and your Immortal is 20+s sooner. I think this will hold a 4gate easy. Congrats KCDC at almost getting the optimal build.
EDIT 2:
I think 1 Gate 2 gas Robo is better... 2 Immortals before 6:30, Sentry by 5:45, 3 Z, 1 S, and another Sentry by 6:15 so you can FF into 2 Immortals and throw up another Gate if needed.
The first build is very close to what I laid out in the OP. The differences were that you only spend 1 chrono on probes which I'm 100% ok with and getting a 2nd stalker. I believe that saving an extra chrono does speed up your defense by 5-10 seconds. I'm not a fan of the building the 2nd stalker because I find that doing so delays your second immortal.
As for the 2nd BO, I don't think you can count on holding your ramp with that BO, so I don't see a purpose for the extra gas or sentries. You're saying you have 1 FF at 5:45 which will probably be early enough, but you won't have another FF till 6:15 which leaves a hole that he can walk up. Additionally, since so much of your DPS is in zealots, I'm not sure it would be good to fight at the ramp even if you could. You have an immortal, but his ranged damage is still better, particularly against zealots which tend to take the hits in these ramp battles. I don't think fighting at the choke is the way to go with this.
I tested it some more and i'm under the impression that you definately need at least chrono's on your warpgate tech you get that first warpgate round in time. This makes me believe the correct build order is uses 2 chrono on nexus, 1 on first gate, 3 on WG tech and all others on immortal. To compensate for the fact that your first immortal won't be chronoboosted as much as in a other variation you want to start your robo really fast. You can do this by going zealot-zealot-stalker instead of zealot-stalker-zealot and cutting probes at 22 (which is neccesary to fight of the 4 gate really). That way you can put down the robo really fast and you can generally bank on your strategy not being scouted because they will pull back their first probe thinking your 2nd unit will be a stalker (especially since you boost it).
I've been playing with this build on ladder quite a bit (2800 diamond) and I've had mixed results. Against a 4 gater that is being very aggressive and actively trying to break me, it does great. The issue is when they go up my ramp, see my unit composition, withdraw right away and go home to make a Stargate and pump out Phoenixes.
When the opponent withdraws you're pretty stuck in your base as a bunch of Zealots and Immortals have a really hard time going down a ramp and moving around the map because they are so slow. If the opponent has a Sentry, this becomes even more difficult to handle.
So you're a bit in the dark and need to make an Observer and don't know whether it's safe to get the 2nd gas. If you do take the 2nd gas and start going down Colossi tech, you must pretty much make nothing but zealots as the robo production takes almost 100% of your gas. This leaves you unable to create Stalkers to counter the Phoenixes even if your Observer spots them. I've also had the scenario on DQ where the opponent goes home, gets VRs, charge and expands and there isn't a whole lot I can do about that either.
That's been my #1 struggle. Basically if they try to kill me it's great, if they go back home it sucks.
On February 12 2011 16:39 fighter2_40 wrote: I tried this and can see how t can hold 4gate. but I just encountered k4g and this does not do well at l vs that.
It's been discussed before. From my previous post:
10gateway 13gas with pulled probes is all scoutable with your first scouting probe. He pulls probes off gas, the gateway is early, and his nexus energy is higher than ever. You haven't placed your robo yet and can safely do whatever opening you prefer against Korean 4 Warpgate play. This does not typically involve a robo (no stalkers / variations with very few stalkers) so you're not continuing in the gateway - robo - gate build order.
On February 12 2011 05:04 RedusK wrote: I've been playing with this build on ladder quite a bit (2800 diamond) and I've had mixed results. Against a 4 gater that is being very aggressive and actively trying to break me, it does great. The issue is when they go up my ramp, see my unit composition, withdraw right away and go home to make a Stargate and pump out Phoenixes.
When the opponent withdraws you're pretty stuck in your base as a bunch of Zealots and Immortals have a really hard time going down a ramp and moving around the map because they are so slow. If the opponent has a Sentry, this becomes even more difficult to handle.
So you're a bit in the dark and need to make an Observer and don't know whether it's safe to get the 2nd gas. If you do take the 2nd gas and start going down Colossi tech, you must pretty much make nothing but zealots as the robo production takes almost 100% of your gas. This leaves you unable to create Stalkers to counter the Phoenixes even if your Observer spots them. I've also had the scenario on DQ where the opponent goes home, gets VRs, charge and expands and there isn't a whole lot I can do about that either.
That's been my #1 struggle. Basically if they try to kill me it's great, if they go back home it sucks.
I actually intentionally left the guide very vague beyond 6 minutes because I think there are a lot of different ways to go at this point. You could go for a timing attack against a FE, you could expand, or you could tech to collosi or void rays. You can add a sentry at any point if you want more defense.
On February 11 2011 02:34 Acridice wrote: If you see a 10gate, just immediately put some early pressure on them
I either build a second gateway in my base, or build a proxy forge/gateway near their base and then chrono zealots out of my first gateway while the proxies build. Then I push into their base with cannons and zealots. Here, I show you.
This is actually a very typical reaction I do when I see a 10 gate.
On February 12 2011 05:04 RedusK wrote: I've been playing with this build on ladder quite a bit (2800 diamond) and I've had mixed results. Against a 4 gater that is being very aggressive and actively trying to break me, it does great. The issue is when they go up my ramp, see my unit composition, withdraw right away and go home to make a Stargate and pump out Phoenixes.
When the opponent withdraws you're pretty stuck in your base as a bunch of Zealots and Immortals have a really hard time going down a ramp and moving around the map because they are so slow. If the opponent has a Sentry, this becomes even more difficult to handle.
So you're a bit in the dark and need to make an Observer and don't know whether it's safe to get the 2nd gas. If you do take the 2nd gas and start going down Colossi tech, you must pretty much make nothing but zealots as the robo production takes almost 100% of your gas. This leaves you unable to create Stalkers to counter the Phoenixes even if your Observer spots them. I've also had the scenario on DQ where the opponent goes home, gets VRs, charge and expands and there isn't a whole lot I can do about that either.
That's been my #1 struggle. Basically if they try to kill me it's great, if they go back home it sucks.
I've never had this problem (2800 Diamond also). I take my second gas just after my first few zealot warp ins because you can't spend your minerals on just Zealots and Immortals, try that, if they look like they are going to stall then chrono an obsever.
My biggest problem was when they go blind Voidray (Proxy Stargate) Stalker push, that was really difficult to hold off, even if it was delayed (they went 1 gas until probe was gone)
I've never tried going for such an early immortal to defend 4-gates, but assuming it works, I do not see the benefit of this over 3-gate. With 3-gate you can get your 2nd gas earlier, have a heavier stalker army, can hold your ramp better (so it is less risky), can delay their proxy pylons (again, less risky) and it leaves your tech path more open.
I see little advantages of getting the early robo comparatively as your army composition of mostly zealot/immortal will not be as strong pushing back or breaking a contain. For example if you hold w/ 3-gates w/ a stalker heavy army, you can smoothly transition into blink stalkers and end the game much quicker since you'll have both an army, tech, and eco advantage compared to your opponent.
On February 16 2011 02:21 Skyro wrote: I've never tried going for such an early immortal to defend 4-gates, but assuming it works, I do not see the benefit of this over 3-gate. With 3-gate you can get your 2nd gas earlier, have a heavier stalker army, can hold your ramp better (so it is less risky), can delay their proxy pylons (again, less risky) and it leaves your tech path more open.
I see little advantages of getting the early robo comparatively as your army composition of mostly zealot/immortal will not be as strong pushing back or breaking a contain. For example if you hold w/ 3-gates w/ a stalker heavy army, you can smoothly transition into blink stalkers and end the game much quicker since you'll have both an army, tech, and eco advantage compared to your opponent.
It can be tricky to defend with 3 gates, but that aside, this gets your robo faster and gives you immortals and zealots instead of stalkers and sentries. I won't say that one is necessarily better than the other, but it at least offers you different options. You have the option of getting to collosi a little more efficiently. You're significantly stronger against blink stalker plays. In a recent test, I was actually able to FE into a blink stalker opening. Compare that to a 3-gate stalker/sentry opening where the 400 mineral investment would leave you without sufficient defense against a blink timing. My favorite aspect of this opening, however, is that it lets you immortal drop. It's really easy to pick off pylons and small groups of stalkers with 2 immortals + a warp prism, and best of all, the combination is great for defending collosus timing pushes. You just drop 2 immortals at the feet of the collosi and focus them down.
I need to run more tests, but I suspect there may be a way to expo after your 2nd immortal such that there are adaptations afterwards that will allow you to defend against almost anything.
On February 16 2011 02:21 Skyro wrote: I've never tried going for such an early immortal to defend 4-gates, but assuming it works, I do not see the benefit of this over 3-gate. With 3-gate you can get your 2nd gas earlier, have a heavier stalker army, can hold your ramp better (so it is less risky), can delay their proxy pylons (again, less risky) and it leaves your tech path more open.
I see little advantages of getting the early robo comparatively as your army composition of mostly zealot/immortal will not be as strong pushing back or breaking a contain. For example if you hold w/ 3-gates w/ a stalker heavy army, you can smoothly transition into blink stalkers and end the game much quicker since you'll have both an army, tech, and eco advantage compared to your opponent.
It can be tricky to defend with 3 gates, but that aside, this gets your robo faster and gives you immortals and zealots instead of stalkers and sentries. I won't say that one is necessarily better than the other, but it at least offers you different options. You have the option of getting to collosi a little more efficiently. You're significantly stronger against blink stalker plays. In a recent test, I was actually able to FE into a blink stalker opening. Compare that to a 3-gate stalker/sentry opening where the 400 mineral investment would leave you without sufficient defense against a blink timing. My favorite aspect of this opening, however, is that it lets you immortal drop. It's really easy to pick off pylons and small groups of stalkers with 2 immortals + a warp prism, and best of all, the combination is great for defending collosus timing pushes. You just drop 2 immortals at the feet of the collosi and focus them down.
I need to run more tests, but I suspect there may be a way to expo after your 2nd immortal such that there are adaptations afterwards that will allow you to defend against almost anything.
Well usually blink stalker builds get their 2nd gas early so if you scout that and other signs indicate no 4-gate you can just play standard. I was speaking strictly from the perspective of your relative position right after a successful defense of a 4-gate, where I believe w/ a 3-gate you are left in a better position since you can almost always finish the game right off with blink stalkers.
The main advantage seems to be if you suspect the 4-gate but then it never comes and they are 1-basing, in which case I probably would toss down a robo so a 2-gate robo would be ahead in that scenario.
On February 16 2011 02:21 Skyro wrote: I've never tried going for such an early immortal to defend 4-gates, but assuming it works, I do not see the benefit of this over 3-gate. With 3-gate you can get your 2nd gas earlier, have a heavier stalker army, can hold your ramp better (so it is less risky), can delay their proxy pylons (again, less risky) and it leaves your tech path more open.
I see little advantages of getting the early robo comparatively as your army composition of mostly zealot/immortal will not be as strong pushing back or breaking a contain. For example if you hold w/ 3-gates w/ a stalker heavy army, you can smoothly transition into blink stalkers and end the game much quicker since you'll have both an army, tech, and eco advantage compared to your opponent.
It can be tricky to defend with 3 gates, but that aside, this gets your robo faster and gives you immortals and zealots instead of stalkers and sentries. I won't say that one is necessarily better than the other, but it at least offers you different options. You have the option of getting to collosi a little more efficiently. You're significantly stronger against blink stalker plays. In a recent test, I was actually able to FE into a blink stalker opening. Compare that to a 3-gate stalker/sentry opening where the 400 mineral investment would leave you without sufficient defense against a blink timing. My favorite aspect of this opening, however, is that it lets you immortal drop. It's really easy to pick off pylons and small groups of stalkers with 2 immortals + a warp prism, and best of all, the combination is great for defending collosus timing pushes. You just drop 2 immortals at the feet of the collosi and focus them down.
I need to run more tests, but I suspect there may be a way to expo after your 2nd immortal such that there are adaptations afterwards that will allow you to defend against almost anything.
Well usually blink stalker builds get their 2nd gas early so if you scout that and other signs indicate no 4-gate you can just play standard. I was speaking strictly from the perspective of your relative position right after a successful defense of a 4-gate, where I believe w/ a 3-gate you are left in a better position since you can almost always finish the game right off with blink stalkers.
The main advantage seems to be if you suspect the 4-gate but then it never comes and they are 1-basing, in which case I probably would toss down a robo so a 2-gate robo would be ahead in that scenario.
If you hold an aggressive 4 gate cleanly, you're going to be ahead. I suppose some builds might leave you more ahead than others, but I generally look for builds that give me a chance to win against the greatest number of potential openings rather than a build that lets me win the hardest against the build I'm most concerned about. The goal in this opening isn't to smash the hell out of 4-gate. It's to give you a flexible opening that gives you a good shot against 4 gate, but also leaves you in good shape against a variety of openings. I consider it an alternative to an eco 4-gate in that it's pretty good against a lot of things, but not great against anything.
Theres some 4 gates that actually hit in a perfect window not at the 6:00 mark but at about 5:45 mark with the first attack. That gives them a 10 second window with their 6 units to snipe some of your units before the immortal can come out and then it snowballs from there. I don't think 1 gas 1 gate robo can hold a clean executed 4 gate like this but will hold a slightly delayed or a little sloppily executed 4 gate.
Hey, i am ~3400 master league @ EU and i tryed it a bit, have not met any 4gatepusher yet, but against a standard players i have some things to notice. Poke with a probe near his base and try to go in using mineralwalk about 3.40-4.00 so u can scout second gas and gateway count. Move out with your first stalker. And if his troops are inside - he is not pushing at all. If he is out just try to win some time poking with stalkers carefully, shooting guys and moving your stalker as far from your base as you can in same time. You can even try to catch and kill his probe for denying pylons. Everybody who talk about stargate dont understand that if u see 2nd gas or guy is not pushing, you can do not make the second immortal and save gas for stalkers, and ofc take your gas yourself.
Definitely like the theory kcdc (and I'm a fan of your posts), but in the replays you provided, your opponents' 4gates were not executed cleanly. I would love to see a couple of replays vs clean 4gate builds. =)
On February 16 2011 07:12 Omniscient wrote: Definitely like the theory kcdc (and I'm a fan of your posts), but in the replays you provided, your opponents' 4gates were not executed cleanly. I would love to see a couple of replays vs clean 4gate builds. =)
kcdc's execution wasn't super-clean either, with timings 10-15 seconds later than what he's claimed is possible (and that I've verified myself playing against the AI on the slowest speed, cause I simply don't have the mechanics to execute cleanly at fastest without practicing it quite a bit more than I wanted to just to verify the timings).
I agree though. I'd really like to see reps of cleanly executed 4gates, as well as clean execution from kcdc.
I have been experimenting with a similar build with great success against 4gates on the ladder.
However, I opt for an early 2nd gas by skipping the zealot and make a stalker or sentry (depending on scout info). The extra gas allows for faster immortal timing (gate, core, robo, gate, gate) so you end up with a 3gate robo and still more probes than any serious 4gate. The immortal pops in plenty of time to hold stalkers and you have sentries with extra energy for FFs.
Have you considered a second gas for the faster immortal timing since it allows for more stalker/sentry production to hold the ramp, split his forces, or snipe the proxy pylon? I like this build because it offers options like a fast colossus, an immortal drop, observers, etc. He can't exactly contain you if you warp units down your ledge away from the ramp, not to mention the econ advantage allows easy expo after breaking the contain (or warping in at your scouts proxy on the map to pressure him at home)
kcdc, have any reps showing cleaner execution on both sides? A clean 4gate should have either 6 stalkers or 5 stalkers + a zealot attacking up your ramp at 5:45-5:50, and if your execution isn't clean you will probably just lose to an attack that fast. Specifically, if you don't have zealots #4+#5 already out at that time, and the immo within 5 seconds of finished or so, I don't see how you'll be able to stay even, much less get ahead.
Although if you have any reps of you beating the 5:45-5:50 with the same level of execution you showed in the posted reps, I'd love to see those too.
Definitely not saying you played bad or sloppy, but you were delayed a decent amount from an optimal execution, and the 4gates you've shown were all fairly late as well.
By "optimal" execution, I mean the times I was able to achieve playing the opening at the slowest game speed, as I'm only a low to mid diamond player, and simply don't have the speed to execute anywhere near optimally at fastest. However, by playing at slowest, I was able to come in quite a bit faster than what you've shown here by doing that (15-20ish seconds on the immo if I recall correctly), but was only able to cut about 2 seconds off a 5:45-ish attack in 4gate rep I found in another thread.
why dont people just pay more attention to the thread before posting , ive upload 3 replays on the first page of me defending with this build ( improved version-20 seconds faster immortal) vs a perfectly executed 4 gate rush that comes at 5.35-.40 at my ramp.
On February 21 2011 06:19 Skrag wrote: kcdc, have any reps showing cleaner execution on both sides? A clean 4gate should have either 6 stalkers or 5 stalkers + a zealot attacking up your ramp at 5:45-5:50, and if your execution isn't clean you will probably just lose to an attack that fast. Specifically, if you don't have zealots #4+#5 already out at that time, and the immo within 5 seconds of finished or so, I don't see how you'll be able to stay even, much less get ahead.
Although if you have any reps of you beating the 5:45-5:50 with the same level of execution you showed in the posted reps, I'd love to see those too.
Definitely not saying you played bad or sloppy, but you were delayed a decent amount from an optimal execution, and the 4gates you've shown were all fairly late as well.
By "optimal" execution, I mean the times I was able to achieve playing the opening at the slowest game speed, as I'm only a low to mid diamond player, and simply don't have the speed to execute anywhere near optimally at fastest. However, by playing at slowest, I was able to come in quite a bit faster than what you've shown here by doing that (15-20ish seconds on the immo if I recall correctly), but was only able to cut about 2 seconds off a 5:45-ish attack in 4gate rep I found in another thread.
Doesn't warp gate FINISH at 5:45, and thus, the perfect attack is at around 6?
kcdc, have you tried this build vs the 3 chrono stalkers? I lost with this build in ladder vs korean 3 chrono'ed stalker (see: Cecil thread)..my 1 zealot 1 stalker died along with 7 probes and couldn't catch back up.
I think this build is now very vulnerable on Steppes and smaller travel distance spawns..what do u think?
On February 21 2011 07:14 Strivers wrote: kcdc, have you tried this build vs the 3 chrono stalkers? I lost with this build in ladder vs korean 3 chrono'ed stalker (see: Cecil thread)..my 1 zealot 1 stalker died along with 7 probes and couldn't catch back up.
I think this build is now very vulnerable on Steppes and smaller travel distance spawns..what do u think?
You should be able to have 1 zealot 1 stalker 1 sentry out against 3 chrono stalkers, which is pretty much insta-win if they try to go up your ramp. You can easily scout the 3 chrono stalker build in time to adjust by chronoing out the sentry rather than getting such an early robo.
On February 21 2011 06:19 Skrag wrote: kcdc, have any reps showing cleaner execution on both sides? A clean 4gate should have either 6 stalkers or 5 stalkers + a zealot attacking up your ramp at 5:45-5:50, and if your execution isn't clean you will probably just lose to an attack that fast. Specifically, if you don't have zealots #4+#5 already out at that time, and the immo within 5 seconds of finished or so, I don't see how you'll be able to stay even, much less get ahead.
Although if you have any reps of you beating the 5:45-5:50 with the same level of execution you showed in the posted reps, I'd love to see those too.
Definitely not saying you played bad or sloppy, but you were delayed a decent amount from an optimal execution, and the 4gates you've shown were all fairly late as well.
By "optimal" execution, I mean the times I was able to achieve playing the opening at the slowest game speed, as I'm only a low to mid diamond player, and simply don't have the speed to execute anywhere near optimally at fastest. However, by playing at slowest, I was able to come in quite a bit faster than what you've shown here by doing that (15-20ish seconds on the immo if I recall correctly), but was only able to cut about 2 seconds off a 5:45-ish attack in 4gate rep I found in another thread.
I'll start saving them again. I ran a bunch of tests with Floophead and VanGool when I first posted this thread, but none of them were 100% perfect on both sides. I think we ran about 10 tests and this build held in all but 1. If I run into a particularly well executed 4 gate while I'm using this build in ladder tho, I'll post it. It's really hard to run a perfect 4 gate while scouting, microing and defending your forward pylon.
If anyone's interested, I've been working on transitions for this build, and in my limited testing, I think you can expand fairly safely after 2 immortals. This expansion timing happens after a 4 gate would hit, so you don't have to worry about that. The next attack timing is 3 gate blink, and with the 2 immortals, I've been able to hold that pretty comfortably for the most part. After the blink timing passes, if they haven't expanded, the next standard attack timing is 1 base collosus. I've been able to hold this by getting 2 more gateways (total of 4) and pumping zealots, stalkers and immortals with 1 warp prism. 1 base collosus is very zealot heavy, so you're free to load 2 immortals into the warp prism and drop them on his collosi. Even if you're not able to kill them, you can keep the collosi running around which neutralizes a lot of the DPS in the attack.
Of course, ~6 min 4 gate, 3 gate blink and 1 base collosus are only the most standard attack timings you'll have to worry about. It's possible that this expansion timing will simply die to something funky like a delayed 4 gate or quick chargelots. Given the current metagame, however, it seems like a strong play.
How do you deal with a phoenix opener using this build? I know they are pretty rare, but for the most part and 3 gate stargate build is indistinguishable from a robo build until after your scouting probe is chased off. If you are lucky, your obs will be out about the same time he pushes out with 3 phoenix and you will have time to warp in one round of stalkers. If not, you are left with one stalker to protect your immortals while his zealots and a few stalkers combat your smaller gateway army.
On February 24 2011 04:11 brainpower wrote: How do you deal with a phoenix opener using this build? I know they are pretty rare, but for the most part and 3 gate stargate build is indistinguishable from a robo build until after your scouting probe is chased off. If you are lucky, your obs will be out about the same time he pushes out with 3 phoenix and you will have time to warp in one round of stalkers. If not, you are left with one stalker to protect your immortals while his zealots and a few stalkers combat your smaller gateway army.
Stargate openings require 2 gas early enough to scout it with a probe. If you see 2 gas, you don't need to prepare for the 6 min 4 gate by going zealot/immortal, and you can take 2 gas.
If you do find yourself using this build against a stargate opening, however, you're not in that bad of shape. Just make sure you have more zealots than he does, and you'll be ok.
Do you have any tips on holding off the 2 colossus all-in when expanding? I've been running this build and seeing alot of 2-3 gate robo's. I usually expand after the first immortal when I see it's no 4 gate and try to get colossus up asap but I just get steamrolled by the all-in. I usually have a similar sized army but only 1 colossus with the 2nd on the way.
On February 28 2011 07:46 Logros wrote: Do you have any tips on holding off the 2 colossus all-in when expanding? I've been running this build and seeing alot of 2-3 gate robo's. I usually expand after the first immortal when I see it's no 4 gate and try to get colossus up asap but I just get steamrolled by the all-in. I usually have a similar sized army but only 1 colossus with the 2nd on the way.
It really depends on the type of colossus timing push and what map you are on (rush distance matters a lot for expo vs timing push). Do they have range? etc.
On February 28 2011 07:46 Logros wrote: Do you have any tips on holding off the 2 colossus all-in when expanding? I've been running this build and seeing alot of 2-3 gate robo's. I usually expand after the first immortal when I see it's no 4 gate and try to get colossus up asap but I just get steamrolled by the all-in. I usually have a similar sized army but only 1 colossus with the 2nd on the way.
Yeah, I get rolled by 2 colossus all-in if I expo and tech support bay too. Against 1 base colossus, I don't add tech past gateway + immortal and I just defend the push with 4 gates + immortals in a warp prism to drop on the colo.
On February 28 2011 07:46 Logros wrote: Do you have any tips on holding off the 2 colossus all-in when expanding? I've been running this build and seeing alot of 2-3 gate robo's. I usually expand after the first immortal when I see it's no 4 gate and try to get colossus up asap but I just get steamrolled by the all-in. I usually have a similar sized army but only 1 colossus with the 2nd on the way.
Yeah, I get rolled by 2 colossus all-in if I expo and tech support bay too. Against 1 base colossus, I don't add tech past gateway + immortal and I just defend the push with 4 gates + immortals in a warp prism to drop on the colo.
On February 28 2011 14:10 xiaofan wrote: I just played kcdc on ladder where he went this build. I went 4gate off 10 gate and he held it off easily. Very strong build!!!
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Aren't you supposed to warp in pylons in his base and just use zealots with a 10 gate? (korean style) I'm still looking for a replay with the proper response to that.
On February 28 2011 14:10 xiaofan wrote: I just played kcdc on ladder where he went this build. I went 4gate off 10 gate and he held it off easily. Very strong build!!!
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I think if you backed out after running up the ramp and waited for your next round of units to re-engage, you would have won.
I don't like this build because of that, if the 4gater just stays back and accumulates another 2+ rounds, it kind of gets over whelming, I much prefer the 2 gate 3stalker opening
Been using this build quite a lot on ladder and I really enjoy it KCDC.
I'm finding difficulty with this build against Korean 4-Gate on these new, larger maps, if I'm unlucky and scout the last base, most of the time it's GG for me. Or rather I need more practice against K4G..
I like following up, after a 4-gate or I know he's one basing colossus, by making two immortals and do a prism harass at their mineral line with two zealots. Usually causes a big reaction by the other player and I can usually exploit them at this time. Two immortals really pound down on colossus if you hit when they have 1 to 2 colossus.
On March 09 2011 03:38 shenzu88 wrote: Been using this build quite a lot on ladder and I really enjoy it KCDC.
I'm finding difficulty with this build against Korean 4-Gate on these new, larger maps, if I'm unlucky and scout the last base, most of the time it's GG for me.
Glad you like the build. Don't use it against K4G tho. I'm not sure what about this build would give you more problems against K4G than your regular build would. I'm guessing it's the 13 gate and the later scout. I'm still able to fend off K4G by responding when my probe gets to their base for the most part, but if it's causing you a lot of extra losses, you can adjust my BO to pylon scout and/or make your gateway on 12, tho it will very slightly slow the critical timing where you have 5 zealots, a stalker and an immortal. The key concepts with this build are getting a stalker to deny scouting, and getting an immortal and a good zealot count fast enough to defend 4 gate. With regard to scout timings and cheese defense, play it the way you feel most comfortable.
On March 09 2011 03:38 shenzu88 wrote: Been using this build quite a lot on ladder and I really enjoy it KCDC.
I'm finding difficulty with this build against Korean 4-Gate on these new, larger maps, if I'm unlucky and scout the last base, most of the time it's GG for me.
Glad you like the build. Don't use it against K4G tho. I'm not sure what about this build would give you more problems against K4G than your regular build would. I'm guessing it's the 13 gate and the later scout. I'm still able to fend off K4G by responding when my probe gets to their base for the most part, but if it's causing you a lot of extra losses, you can adjust my BO to pylon scout and/or make your gateway on 12, tho it will very slightly slow the critical timing where you have 5 zealots, a stalker and an immortal. The key concepts with this build are getting a stalker to deny scouting, and getting an immortal and a good zealot count fast enough to defend 4 gate. With regard to scout timings and cheese defense, play it the way you feel most comfortable.
Indeed it's the later scout. I have already adjusted the build to allow an earlier scout, around 11 food. Everything else is great with this build.
But for every K4G opponent I get 15 normal games so all is well.
On March 09 2011 15:59 Strivers wrote: So whats the adjustment if you scout K4G?
Not go robo I'd assume. K4G(zealot all-in), has the obvious tell of there being nothing in the opponents base to stop your probe from scouting the zero probes on gas. You should be able to spot it and get out a few stalkers to deal with the zealots.
Holding against tech with only 1 gas for a while, later destroying his army with simply mass zealots (with some stalkers) and immortals flanking the colossi.
Enjoy. Oh, and my execution of the build was not optimal. And another note is that you will ALWAYS need that 2nd immortal, and probably the 3rd if you can't micro well, against the 4 gate all-in.
I've been using this build recently without a rigid structure, just making sure to have 4ish zealots, 1 stalker, and 1 immo before the hurt comes, and I win the rush.
My difference is that when the 4 gate is stopped, I immediately take a second gas and rush to a 2 colossus push, which usually wins me the game.
I think the transition possibilities with this build as soon as the push is held off are almost limitless if you can get that second gas up quick.
On March 12 2011 07:51 Turnus wrote: I've been using this build recently without a rigid structure, just making sure to have 4ish zealots, 1 stalker, and 1 immo before the hurt comes, and I win the rush.
My difference is that when the 4 gate is stopped, I immediately take a second gas and rush to a 2 colossus push, which usually wins me the game.
I think the transition possibilities with this build as soon as the push is held off are almost limitless if you can get that second gas up quick.
I do this as well. I make the build slightly slower, if it's safe, to add in a few more probes and a 2nd gas. With that it becomes much better against anything non 4 gate. For example in the current version this build is a near autoloss imo against a phoenix opening because you'll be having only 1 stalker and hardly any gas to quickly make more, with a quicker 2nd gas and more probes that becomes much easier to handle. Also unlike doing gimmicky immortal drops or whatever, which in my experience just fail against a 2 non-range colo push with stalker warpin, I just prefer to win the colo war. If you scout well you should actually be ahead in gas against many 2 gas builds as you won't have to waste gas on a sentry.
The trick is offcourse knowing when a 4 gate is coming and how much exactly you have to cut to survive. I basically use 3 things for this: - their cyber timing and use of chronoboosts. If it's as slow as your 13 gate and they use 3 boosts on nexus you can get a few more probes. If they 12 gate you usually need to cut after 22 probes. - the map. Some maps it's easier to keep their proxy pylons further back while on others this is very hard. Bigger maps usually mean you can get a few more probes. - your scouting probe. A good move is usually to poke back into their base about 20 seconds after their stalker finished. Often they have moved out with their stalker and you can get in to see what they are up to at the cost of your probe, if they aren't 4 gating immediately get 2nd gas and continue probes.
There is not. If he brings more zealots than stalkers you will just lose with this build, that's why you're chronoboosting your first stalker to hide your fast robo tech. This build, just like adelscott's one, won't be effective once popular.
On March 12 2011 10:03 SaJa wrote: There is not. If he brings more zealots than stalkers you will just lose with this build, that's why you're chronoboosting your first stalker to hide your fast robo tech. This build, just like adelscott's one, won't be effective once popular.
Yeah, but who is bringing more zealots than stalkers for their initial 4gate push / warp-in? Again, this build is dependent on the opponent doing some variant of the currently popular 4gate technique. Scouting is key, and transitioning out of this initial build is easy imo.
On March 12 2011 10:03 SaJa wrote: There is not. If he brings more zealots than stalkers you will just lose with this build, that's why you're chronoboosting your first stalker to hide your fast robo tech. This build, just like adelscott's one, won't be effective once popular.
A 4 gate will not have alot more units when they make zealots instead of stalkers. If they attack you with 6 zealots and 1 stalker instead of 6 stalkers 1 zealot it only makes it easier to stop imo. You'll have 5 zealots 1 stalker and 1 immortal on the way and stalling against zealots is actually alot easier.
Either way a 12 gate into 4 gate will always have 2 stalkers really because that's what they make before they finish warpgate. If they don't make the 2nd stalker their push will be later because a zealot is slower. Also zealots are much easier to funnel at your ramp so you can actually use that as well to your advantage..
Mass zealot attacks are only worrysome when they come from a 10 gate. 10 gates are easy to scout though and should always be countered by a normal 4 gate which demolishes 10 gates...
On March 12 2011 10:03 SaJa wrote: There is not. If he brings more zealots than stalkers you will just lose with this build, that's why you're chronoboosting your first stalker to hide your fast robo tech. This build, just like adelscott's one, won't be effective once popular.
A 4 gate will not have alot more units when they make zealots instead of stalkers. If they attack you with 6 zealots and 1 stalker instead of 6 stalkers 1 zealot it only makes it easier to stop imo. You'll have 5 zealots 1 stalker and 1 immortal on the way and stalling against zealots is actually alot easier.
Either way a 12 gate into 4 gate will always have 2 stalkers really because that's what they make before they finish warpgate. If they don't make the 2nd stalker their push will be later because a zealot is slower. Also zealots are much easier to funnel at your ramp so you can actually use that as well to your advantage..
Mass zealot attacks are only worrysome when they come from a 10 gate. 10 gates are easy to scout though and should always be countered by a normal 4 gate which demolishes 10 gates...
You win the first fight but lose the next. You need to add more gateways asap if you see him mass zealot as a result of seing your robo. Immortal DPS to Zealot isn't great for their cost and when he is warping Zealots from 4 gateways whilst you only have 2 with Immortals coming out every 40seconds, it isn't long before you get overwhelmed
On March 12 2011 10:03 SaJa wrote: There is not. If he brings more zealots than stalkers you will just lose with this build, that's why you're chronoboosting your first stalker to hide your fast robo tech. This build, just like adelscott's one, won't be effective once popular.
A 4 gate will not have alot more units when they make zealots instead of stalkers. If they attack you with 6 zealots and 1 stalker instead of 6 stalkers 1 zealot it only makes it easier to stop imo. You'll have 5 zealots 1 stalker and 1 immortal on the way and stalling against zealots is actually alot easier.
Either way a 12 gate into 4 gate will always have 2 stalkers really because that's what they make before they finish warpgate. If they don't make the 2nd stalker their push will be later because a zealot is slower. Also zealots are much easier to funnel at your ramp so you can actually use that as well to your advantage..
Mass zealot attacks are only worrysome when they come from a 10 gate. 10 gates are easy to scout though and should always be countered by a normal 4 gate which demolishes 10 gates...
You win the first fight but lose the next. You need to add more gateways asap if you see him mass zealot as a result of seing your robo. Immortal DPS to Zealot isn't great for their cost and when he is warping Zealots from 4 gateways whilst you only have 2 with Immortals coming out every 40seconds, it isn't long before you get overwhelmed
After the the first 2 warp-ins (4 stalkers, 4 zealots), they won't be able to sustain production anymore due to not having any mineral banks (such as saving up for the 4 stalkers during warp gate research). It'll be like 1-2 zealots every while .
This means that you can constantly warp in zealots and use 3-5 probes to fight with your immortals while he really can't do anything. It's worth it because remember, the 4 gate is an all-in, so it doesn't matter if you lose a couple of probes as long as you maintained decent probe production (except slight cuts for immortals).
Been having great success with this build. If they back off after the attempted 4gate, Ive been containing and expanding, and then having success in a macro game. Simple enough.
Only question is when should the additional gate be added? If the opponent is a 4gating, but seems to be a little late in doing so, should more units be added, or the additional gate?
On February 09 2011 04:48 camster91 wrote: I have been doing a 2-Gate Robo build PvP recently and is working well for me. Instead of 1 gas though I get second gas at 20 and chrono 1 Zealot, 1 Stalker and 2 Sentrys out of my first gate I make my second gate in time for Warp Gate tech. I get my robo ASAP and chrono Immortals until I push out. If they are 4-Gating I can get 3 Sentrys some gateway units and an Immortal in time. From there I will endlessly FF my ramp until they back off. If they contain me I go for Colossus tech. This works well because it I get 3 Immortals fast and can usually do a lot of damage if they expanded.
2500+ Diamond
Would you mind sharing your BO for this including the times you CB gateways/WG research/nexus??
On March 12 2011 10:03 SaJa wrote: There is not. If he brings more zealots than stalkers you will just lose with this build, that's why you're chronoboosting your first stalker to hide your fast robo tech. This build, just like adelscott's one, won't be effective once popular.
A 4 gate will not have alot more units when they make zealots instead of stalkers. If they attack you with 6 zealots and 1 stalker instead of 6 stalkers 1 zealot it only makes it easier to stop imo. You'll have 5 zealots 1 stalker and 1 immortal on the way and stalling against zealots is actually alot easier.
Either way a 12 gate into 4 gate will always have 2 stalkers really because that's what they make before they finish warpgate. If they don't make the 2nd stalker their push will be later because a zealot is slower. Also zealots are much easier to funnel at your ramp so you can actually use that as well to your advantage..
Mass zealot attacks are only worrysome when they come from a 10 gate. 10 gates are easy to scout though and should always be countered by a normal 4 gate which demolishes 10 gates...
You win the first fight but lose the next. You need to add more gateways asap if you see him mass zealot as a result of seing your robo. Immortal DPS to Zealot isn't great for their cost and when he is warping Zealots from 4 gateways whilst you only have 2 with Immortals coming out every 40seconds, it isn't long before you get overwhelmed
After the the first 2 warp-ins (4 stalkers, 4 zealots), they won't be able to sustain production anymore due to not having any mineral banks (such as saving up for the 4 stalkers during warp gate research). It'll be like 1-2 zealots every while .
This means that you can constantly warp in zealots and use 3-5 probes to fight with your immortals while he really can't do anything. It's worth it because remember, the 4 gate is an all-in, so it doesn't matter if you lose a couple of probes as long as you maintained decent probe production (except slight cuts for immortals).
Was just testing it out, providing you are losing units and not needing to build pylons. If you have 0 money when your warpgates have just started their cooldown, you can warpin 3 Zealots with your 4th being around 5seconds delayed. So yes, you can sustain constant warpins from 4gates, the 5seconds will keep building up and up, but you will have 3 gates worth of sustained warpins, even a sentry if you have the spare minerals.
The way 4gate tends to work with its micro battles, most people miss their cooldowns a bit anyway, so I'm fairly sure in a normal game you could constantly keep warpining in Zealots and eventually just overwhelm
But I guess it can come down to whoever gets the momentum early on, as long as the immortals don't die
On March 12 2011 10:03 SaJa wrote: There is not. If he brings more zealots than stalkers you will just lose with this build, that's why you're chronoboosting your first stalker to hide your fast robo tech. This build, just like adelscott's one, won't be effective once popular.
A 4 gate will not have alot more units when they make zealots instead of stalkers. If they attack you with 6 zealots and 1 stalker instead of 6 stalkers 1 zealot it only makes it easier to stop imo. You'll have 5 zealots 1 stalker and 1 immortal on the way and stalling against zealots is actually alot easier.
Either way a 12 gate into 4 gate will always have 2 stalkers really because that's what they make before they finish warpgate. If they don't make the 2nd stalker their push will be later because a zealot is slower. Also zealots are much easier to funnel at your ramp so you can actually use that as well to your advantage..
Mass zealot attacks are only worrysome when they come from a 10 gate. 10 gates are easy to scout though and should always be countered by a normal 4 gate which demolishes 10 gates...
You win the first fight but lose the next. You need to add more gateways asap if you see him mass zealot as a result of seing your robo. Immortal DPS to Zealot isn't great for their cost and when he is warping Zealots from 4 gateways whilst you only have 2 with Immortals coming out every 40seconds, it isn't long before you get overwhelmed
After the the first 2 warp-ins (4 stalkers, 4 zealots), they won't be able to sustain production anymore due to not having any mineral banks (such as saving up for the 4 stalkers during warp gate research). It'll be like 1-2 zealots every while .
This means that you can constantly warp in zealots and use 3-5 probes to fight with your immortals while he really can't do anything. It's worth it because remember, the 4 gate is an all-in, so it doesn't matter if you lose a couple of probes as long as you maintained decent probe production (except slight cuts for immortals).
Was just testing it out, providing you are losing units and not needing to build pylons. If you have 0 money when your warpgates have just started their cooldown, you can warpin 3 Zealots with your 4th being around 5seconds delayed. So yes, you can sustain constant warpins from 4gates, the 5seconds will keep building up and up, but you will have 3 gates worth of sustained warpins, even a sentry if you have the spare minerals.
The way 4gate tends to work with its micro battles, most people miss their cooldowns a bit anyway, so I'm fairly sure in a normal game you could constantly keep warpining in Zealots and eventually just overwhelm
But I guess it can come down to whoever gets the momentum early on, as long as the immortals don't die
The thing is immortals aren't any worse against zealots then stalkers are numbers wise. They only lack the mobility of stalkers so they can't kite as effectively. If you are fighting in a choke zealot + immortal WILL beat pure zealots though. The problem I have found though is choosing where to fight with this strat. Usually you want to engage as far back as possible to buy time but sometimes like vs pure zealot you should be engaging at the ramp.
One problematic thing I encountered with this build is when people bring a probe along with their attack to warp in a pylon behind your mineral line during the attack. Because you only have 1 stalker with this strat you can have a hard time taking care of a pylon while also keeping off their stalkers from killing crucial pylons. If the pylon then finishes they can simply warp in 4 zealots into your mineral line and you can be in quite some trouble :<
After a lot more testing, I don't think this build stops a 100% perfect 4 gate where they warp in their first round at your ramp. With only 1 stalker, you don't have the map control to prevent a proxy pylon at your ramp, so if your scout probe sees an idle nexus, no third pylon and 70+ saved chrono energy, I'd recommend going defensive 4 gate. Of course, the only 4 gates that this build can't stop are 100% scoutable and give you sufficient time to respond.
I consider this to be an anti-robo build that's safe against 4 gates (assuming you respond to scouting information) because it gives you immortals, which when combined with a warp prism, are awesome against colossi. It's okay against blink openings, and it's bad against stargate openings.
On March 18 2011 01:12 kcdc wrote: After a lot more testing, I don't think this build stops a 100% perfect 4 gate where they warp in their first round at your ramp. With only 1 stalker, you don't have the map control to prevent a proxy pylon at your ramp, so if your scout probe sees an idle nexus, no third pylon and 70+ saved chrono energy, I'd recommend going defensive 4 gate. Of course, the only 4 gates that this build can't stop are 100% scoutable and give you sufficient time to respond.
I consider this to be an anti-robo build that's safe against 4 gates (assuming you respond to scouting information) because it gives you immortals, which when combined with a warp prism, are awesome against colossi. It's okay against blink openings, and it's bad against stargate openings.
Bit confused here, so are you saying the build in the OP no longer works against a 'perfect' 4 gate? If so, how does a defensive 4 gate work (sorry i never seen it before)?
The new 4gate is what used to be known as the "korean 4gate" where there is a proxy pylon by your ramp so the reinforcements can be warped directly into your base. To defensively 4gate, you need to have enough stalkers and sentries early to force field your ramp and kill proxy pylons.
On March 18 2011 12:25 ManaDuVortes wrote: The new 4gate is what used to be known as the "korean 4gate" where there is a proxy pylon by your ramp so the reinforcements can be warped directly into your base. To defensively 4gate, you need to have enough stalkers and sentries early to force field your ramp and kill proxy pylons.
Ohhh...so we are saying kcdc's build here doesnt work against korean 4gate then??
OK makes sense re: defensive 4gate. Is there a BO for this that affords enough gas for the sentries/stalkers??
Perfect 4gate may be perfect, but this build has saved PvP for lowly silvery me (refusing to 4gate in the interest of learning PvP macro) and has given me a ridiculous win record against all races since I started using it. I'm playing/beating gold every time now and feel confident this and good macro will take me to gold (plat?) before I need to start caring about my build order again. 4 gate would get me there too, but at least now I can do it with some practice with tier 2+ units.
On March 18 2011 12:25 ManaDuVortes wrote: The new 4gate is what used to be known as the "korean 4gate" where there is a proxy pylon by your ramp so the reinforcements can be warped directly into your base. To defensively 4gate, you need to have enough stalkers and sentries early to force field your ramp and kill proxy pylons.
Ohhh...so we are saying kcdc's build here doesnt work against korean 4gate then??
OK makes sense re: defensive 4gate. Is there a BO for this that affords enough gas for the sentries/stalkers??
no hes saying this gate robo build doesnt't work against a perfect 4 warpgate rush where they warp on ramp, not korean 4 gate.. obviously if you scout korean 4gate you wont go gate robo lol.
On March 18 2011 12:25 ManaDuVortes wrote: The new 4gate is what used to be known as the "korean 4gate" where there is a proxy pylon by your ramp so the reinforcements can be warped directly into your base. To defensively 4gate, you need to have enough stalkers and sentries early to force field your ramp and kill proxy pylons.
No, it's just the standard 12 gate 4 gate all-in with pylons warping on the ramp.
On March 18 2011 13:06 prock wrote: Perfect 4gate may be perfect, but this build has saved PvP for lowly silvery me (refusing to 4gate in the interest of learning PvP macro) and has given me a ridiculous win record against all races since I started using it. I'm playing/beating gold every time now and feel confident this and good macro will take me to gold (plat?) before I need to start caring about my build order again. 4 gate would get me there too, but at least now I can do it with some practice with tier 2+ units.
Tyvm kcdc!
There's no point in not learning the 4gate. Even at master-level, 95% of my games are 4-gate vs 4-gate openings, that either leads to a fast win or we transition into the coin-flip blink/robo/stargate.
On February 09 2011 04:48 camster91 wrote: I have been doing a 2-Gate Robo build PvP recently and is working well for me. Instead of 1 gas though I get second gas at 20 and chrono 1 Zealot, 1 Stalker and 2 Sentrys out of my first gate I make my second gate in time for Warp Gate tech. I get my robo ASAP and chrono Immortals until I push out. If they are 4-Gating I can get 3 Sentrys some gateway units and an Immortal in time. From there I will endlessly FF my ramp until they back off. If they contain me I go for Colossus tech. This works well because it I get 3 Immortals fast and can usually do a lot of damage if they expanded.
On March 18 2011 01:12 kcdc wrote: After a lot more testing, I don't think this build stops a 100% perfect 4 gate where they warp in their first round at your ramp. With only 1 stalker, you don't have the map control to prevent a proxy pylon at your ramp, so if your scout probe sees an idle nexus, no third pylon and 70+ saved chrono energy, I'd recommend going defensive 4 gate. Of course, the only 4 gates that this build can't stop are 100% scoutable and give you sufficient time to respond.
I consider this to be an anti-robo build that's safe against 4 gates (assuming you respond to scouting information) because it gives you immortals, which when combined with a warp prism, are awesome against colossi. It's okay against blink openings, and it's bad against stargate openings.
Bit confused here, so are you saying the build in the OP no longer works against a 'perfect' 4 gate? If so, how does a defensive 4 gate work (sorry i never seen it before)?
I'm saying it doesn't work against a standard 20 probe all-in 4 gate if they place their initial proxy pylon very aggressively.
But this doesn't make the opening bad because a 20 probe all-in 4 gate is scoutable. If you see one of:
(1) more than 2 chronos used on something other than WG research, (2) continued activity on the nexus when you're past 22 supply (3) a third pylon (BIG sign because it won't get cancelled) (4) a second assimilator (make sure to see whether it completes--4 gaters fake a second assimilator frequently)
then you're safe to use this build. The only 4 gate it doesn't defend is an optimal all-in 4 gate, so if they're doing one of those things, you'll be safe. If you see none of those, get 4 gates and defend your ramp with a sentry.
On March 18 2011 01:12 kcdc wrote: After a lot more testing, I don't think this build stops a 100% perfect 4 gate where they warp in their first round at your ramp. With only 1 stalker, you don't have the map control to prevent a proxy pylon at your ramp, so if your scout probe sees an idle nexus, no third pylon and 70+ saved chrono energy, I'd recommend going defensive 4 gate. Of course, the only 4 gates that this build can't stop are 100% scoutable and give you sufficient time to respond.
I consider this to be an anti-robo build that's safe against 4 gates (assuming you respond to scouting information) because it gives you immortals, which when combined with a warp prism, are awesome against colossi. It's okay against blink openings, and it's bad against stargate openings.
Bit confused here, so are you saying the build in the OP no longer works against a 'perfect' 4 gate? If so, how does a defensive 4 gate work (sorry i never seen it before)?
I'm saying it doesn't work against a standard 20 probe all-in 4 gate if they place their initial proxy pylon very aggressively.
But this doesn't make the opening bad because a 20 probe all-in 4 gate is scoutable. If you see one of:
(1) more than 2 chronos used on something other than WG research, (2) continued activity on the nexus when you're past 22 supply (3) a third pylon (BIG sign because it won't get cancelled) (4) a second assimilator (make sure to see whether it completes--4 gaters fake a second assimilator frequently)
then you're safe to use this build. The only 4 gate it doesn't defend is an optimal all-in 4 gate, so if they're doing one of those things, you'll be safe. If you see none of those, get 4 gates and defend your ramp with a sentry.
Thanks kcdc! I think its an awesome BO you have come up with and im trying to practice with it and adopt as a standard since most PvP is 4gating anyway.
One thing that came up was I thought someone was 4 gating but instead they 3 gate blinked. Does this build counter 3 gate blink??
I just played a weird 4 gate-all in that came at around 5:30/5:40 with around 1 zealot and 5 stalkers. That was really strange, I really never seen it before.
I do know that it was at the 11 minute mark though. I'll go find the replay.
On March 21 2011 10:05 iChau wrote: I just played a weird 4 gate-all in that came at around 5:30/5:40 with around 1 zealot and 5 stalkers. That was really strange, I really never seen it before.
I do know that it was at the 11 minute mark though. I'll go find the replay.
What was there at the 11 minute mark? and also the 5:30/5:40 1 zeal 5 stalker attack is normal for an aggressive 4gate.
Apparently, it's a 3 gate and it attacks at around 5:20 with 1 zealot 5 stalkers iirc.
I have really bad memory though, and I probably got some of those wrong. However, he attacked before the immortal could even come out.
I was delayed by roughly ~15 seconds on my build though, however, it would have not mattered because he actually attacked with 5:20, where this build can only just start the immortal. The things he did that made it faster was skipping chrono on stalker, and he actually skipped the 4th gate for a faster stalker and iirc it timed quite well with the 3 gates.
Day9's current daily made me think of this build the entire time. He basically recreated this build from scratch, but skipped the stalker and got 3 gateways out xD
Apparently, it's a 3 gate and it attacks at around 5:20 with 1 zealot 5 stalkers iirc.
I have really bad memory though, and I probably got some of those wrong. However, he attacked before the immortal could even come out.
I was delayed by roughly ~15 seconds on my build though, however, it would have not mattered because he actually attacked with 5:20, where this build can only just start the immortal. The things he did that made it faster was skipping chrono on stalker, and he actually skipped the 4th gate for a faster stalker and iirc it timed quite well with the 3 gates.
those stalkers really only started to warp in 7 seconds faster than a good 4 gate 1 gas (5:23 v. 5:30) in a trade for 1 less stalker/1 less gate. The fact that he got his pylon right outside your base probably made it seem a bit faster than it really was.
On March 09 2011 15:59 Strivers wrote: So whats the adjustment if you scout K4G?
i would recomend sending your first zlot towards his base if you scout a gate on 10.
the k4g i do doesnt build any units until warp gate tech is finished, so by sending your first zealot you force him to either wall in with a gateway or build a zealot.
if he walls in you just have to kill his proxy probe.....he is walled in and it will screw him royally.
if he builds a zealot you will delay his rush significantly and you should still be able to do damage.
if he doesnt see it coming you can kill some probes or if he is really bad, the single pylon that powers all of his buildings and insta win.
normally if i see a gate on 10 and he takes gas i just build 2 gates and send some zealots at him. hasnt failed me yet.
On March 21 2011 10:20 iChau wrote: Meant 11 gate. And actually, no it's not. Standard 4 gate all-in is at the 5:45 mark with the standard 1 zealot 6 stalker 12 gate 4 gate all-in.
You have to factor in proxy pylon set-up, w8ing for your 2nd stalker (due to 3 stalker opening), map distances, etc.
However, if everything goes right somehow, it's at the 5:45.
This build came earlier though, it was roughly around 5:30 ish, which means your immortal does not come out in time.
I saw the replay now and see what you meant by 5:30 mark. That is quicker than expected, though I thought you meant he was at your ramp at ~5:30 so thats where my confusion came from
Yeah but like somebody else already said a 4 gate would have hit at almost the same time as this attack though I guess this attack is a bit safer in the sense that its easier to get to your ramp with that extra stalker.
On March 21 2011 12:45 Noak3 wrote: Day9's current daily made me think of this build the entire time. He basically recreated this build from scratch, but skipped the stalker and got 3 gateways out xD
Yeah, that's better in terms of combat value, but you can't deny scouting. If your opponent sees a robo that early, they can 1 gate FE and win every time. A lot of people run their probe out early assuming the 2nd unit is a stalker, so it can still work. Just something to consider.
nice build sir. I love your 1 Gate FE PvT, but I was wondering whether you could use a similar build against a 1 base terran, especially one that opens 3 rax. I'm theory crafting here, but if you adjust your unit composition , maybe cut a zealot and replace it with a sentry or two , do you think it is till viable?
On March 21 2011 12:45 Noak3 wrote: Day9's current daily made me think of this build the entire time. He basically recreated this build from scratch, but skipped the stalker and got 3 gateways out xD
Yeah, that's better in terms of combat value, but you can't deny scouting. If your opponent sees a robo that early, they can 1 gate FE and win every time. A lot of people run their probe out early assuming the 2nd unit is a stalker, so it can still work. Just something to consider.
Skipping the stalker sucks for another major reason. You won't have anything to snipe probe's with at any time. This makes it harder to force their proxy pylon further away and even worse, you won't be able to stop him from making pylons INSIDE your base while the push happens (something I've had done to me which can be hard to deal with for a lack of stalkers). Also a 1 gate FE is not even the thing I really worry about with this strat, I feel comfortable enough with a colo push to have a decent shot against that. What is really worrysome however for this strat is a quick phoenix opening. Without enough stalkers and alot of gas wasted on robo + immortals there is simply no way to beat superquick phoenix.
Also I still believe this build can hold the perfect 12 gate 4 gate if you do it well. The trick is to stop that first proxy pylon from getting too close to your base which you can do because you'll be having 2 zealots 1 stalker vs their 1 zealot 1 stalker for a while. Executing the build cleanly is difficult compared to a 4 gate so it is always difficult to test optimally. A 4 gater can't screw up that much whereas this build has neat timings that all have to work together.. Can't accidentally place your robo too late, can't forget boosting your WG exactly 3 times, can't forget the 2nd gate on time etc etc.
On March 21 2011 12:45 Noak3 wrote: Day9's current daily made me think of this build the entire time. He basically recreated this build from scratch, but skipped the stalker and got 3 gateways out xD
Yeah, that's better in terms of combat value, but you can't deny scouting. If your opponent sees a robo that early, they can 1 gate FE and win every time. A lot of people run their probe out early assuming the 2nd unit is a stalker, so it can still work. Just something to consider.
Skipping the stalker sucks for another major reason. You won't have anything to snipe probe's with at any time. This makes it harder to force their proxy pylon further away and even worse, you won't be able to stop him from making pylons INSIDE your base while the push happens (something I've had done to me which can be hard to deal with for a lack of stalkers). Also a 1 gate FE is not even the thing I really worry about with this strat, I feel comfortable enough with a colo push to have a decent shot against that. What is really worrysome however for this strat is a quick phoenix opening. Without enough stalkers and alot of gas wasted on robo + immortals there is simply no way to beat superquick phoenix.
Also I still believe this build can hold the perfect 12 gate 4 gate if you do it well. The trick is to stop that first proxy pylon from getting too close to your base which you can do because you'll be having 2 zealots 1 stalker vs their 1 zealot 1 stalker for a while. Executing the build cleanly is difficult compared to a 4 gate so it is always difficult to test optimally. A 4 gater can't screw up that much whereas this build has neat timings that all have to work together.. Can't accidentally place your robo too late, can't forget boosting your WG exactly 3 times, can't forget the 2nd gate on time etc etc.
The thing with countering a 4 gate is that delaying that pylon is the only thing you need to do regardless of the build you go. so while i don't discount this build from Kcdc at all, denying that proxy is the most important thing regardless and as such as long as you can do this any build is viable. See the games between hasuobs and HuK from the TSL3 this past weekend. Three gate is able to beat 4 as long as you deny the pylon. though the nice thing is this way robo tech is well on the way much quicker giving you a good timing to kill your opponent.
holding a perfect 12 gate 4 gate is not going to work with this if you cant deny that first pylon regardless of how cleanly you execute as KCDC has already said. The problem is that the 5 stalkers with vision and range 6 can actually do more damage from the bottom of the ramp than your zealots and immortal can. T
he immortal kill zealots at roughly the same speed stalkers do and with 5 stalkers fighting to help your 4 zealots on the ramp, the robotech opponent can do little to beat you. the stalkers outrange the immortal so they can fire on the zealots fighting the warped in on the ramp zealots and make it an even exchange. When warping in round 2 of zealots the zealots on the ramp are diminished and with time the 4 gater will win a war of attrittion where the zealots can get hits on the immortal(s) and the stalkers can clean up as well. Stalkers die quickly to immortals but when the robo player is highly outnumbered there isnt much you can do. is the control required to do this high? Sure but so is the control required to try and keep the immortals alive and with good 4 gate control its far far more difficult to defend than to attck in the scenario of a "hard" four gate where the pylon at ramp goes up. Do not forget that the range of power is 8 and the range of an immortal is 5 so where a stalker can hit the pylon by the ramp the immortal cannot even though it does more damage to the pylon then a stalker (assuming the proxylon is put up in a good position).
I hope this sums up kcdcs thoughts on the "perfect" 4 gate and how this build cant really stop it.
On March 21 2011 12:45 Noak3 wrote: Day9's current daily made me think of this build the entire time. He basically recreated this build from scratch, but skipped the stalker and got 3 gateways out xD
Yeah, that's better in terms of combat value, but you can't deny scouting. If your opponent sees a robo that early, they can 1 gate FE and win every time. A lot of people run their probe out early assuming the 2nd unit is a stalker, so it can still work. Just something to consider.
Skipping the stalker sucks for another major reason. You won't have anything to snipe probe's with at any time. This makes it harder to force their proxy pylon further away and even worse, you won't be able to stop him from making pylons INSIDE your base while the push happens (something I've had done to me which can be hard to deal with for a lack of stalkers). Also a 1 gate FE is not even the thing I really worry about with this strat, I feel comfortable enough with a colo push to have a decent shot against that. What is really worrysome however for this strat is a quick phoenix opening. Without enough stalkers and alot of gas wasted on robo + immortals there is simply no way to beat superquick phoenix.
Also I still believe this build can hold the perfect 12 gate 4 gate if you do it well. The trick is to stop that first proxy pylon from getting too close to your base which you can do because you'll be having 2 zealots 1 stalker vs their 1 zealot 1 stalker for a while. Executing the build cleanly is difficult compared to a 4 gate so it is always difficult to test optimally. A 4 gater can't screw up that much whereas this build has neat timings that all have to work together.. Can't accidentally place your robo too late, can't forget boosting your WG exactly 3 times, can't forget the 2nd gate on time etc etc.
The thing with countering a 4 gate is that delaying that pylon is the only thing you need to do regardless of the build you go. so while i don't discount this build from Kcdc at all, denying that proxy is the most important thing regardless and as such as long as you can do this any build is viable. See the games between hasuobs and HuK from the TSL3 this past weekend. Three gate is able to beat 4 as long as you deny the pylon. though the nice thing is this way robo tech is well on the way much quicker giving you a good timing to kill your opponent.
holding a perfect 12 gate 4 gate is not going to work with this if you cant deny that first pylon regardless of how cleanly you execute as KCDC has already said. The problem is that the 5 stalkers with vision and range 6 can actually do more damage from the bottom of the ramp than your zealots and immortal can. T
he immortal kill zealots at roughly the same speed stalkers do and with 5 stalkers fighting to help your 4 zealots on the ramp, the robotech opponent can do little to beat you. the stalkers outrange the immortal so they can fire on the zealots fighting the warped in on the ramp zealots and make it an even exchange. When warping in round 2 of zealots the zealots on the ramp are diminished and with time the 4 gater will win a war of attrittion where the zealots can get hits on the immortal(s) and the stalkers can clean up as well. Stalkers die quickly to immortals but when the robo player is highly outnumbered there isnt much you can do. is the control required to do this high? Sure but so is the control required to try and keep the immortals alive and with good 4 gate control its far far more difficult to defend than to attck in the scenario of a "hard" four gate where the pylon at ramp goes up. Do not forget that the range of power is 8 and the range of an immortal is 5 so where a stalker can hit the pylon by the ramp the immortal cannot even though it does more damage to the pylon then a stalker (assuming the proxylon is put up in a good position).
I hope this sums up kcdcs thoughts on the "perfect" 4 gate and how this build cant really stop it.
I didn't understand much of that. If you have zealots against stalkers, don't fight at the ramp. That would be dumb. Also, immortals outrange pylon power. If you have an immortal that isn't busy killing units, it will kill the pylon very quickly.
The problem I've had is that I only have 1 stalker which makes it hard to venture out into the map to deny proxy pylons and kill forward probes. If they run straight at your ramp with zealot+stalker+probe and throw down 2 pylons, they're going to get to warp in units before you can kill the pylons, and if they warp in that close, they'll be in your base early enough to win. The 3 stalker opening suffers from the same problem, but with the extra stalkers, you've got a better shot to snipe the probe before it gets down 2 pylons. In my experience, the 3 stalker opening to 3-gate robo also loses to a perfectly executed 4 gate.
On March 21 2011 12:45 Noak3 wrote: Day9's current daily made me think of this build the entire time. He basically recreated this build from scratch, but skipped the stalker and got 3 gateways out xD
Yeah, that's better in terms of combat value, but you can't deny scouting. If your opponent sees a robo that early, they can 1 gate FE and win every time. A lot of people run their probe out early assuming the 2nd unit is a stalker, so it can still work. Just something to consider.
There is no way to deny scouting the robo in that daily's build, he robos as soon as the core finishes very few (read: only bad) players will leave the base with their scouting probe as soon as the first zealot comes out.
Leaving the opponent all the time in the world to scout it and switch to a stalker->expand instead of a 4gate or even a stargate build.
Also fwiw you can do the 9 pylon 13gate -> scout 13gas opener with no probe cuts on most maps with good probe stacking. You do have to delay your 2nd chrono boost til 14 though.
I have been trying this build and because of the early gas (and slight cutting of probes) I am finding it hard to adjust to what I scout in my opponent's base that is NOT a four gate. It feels like if I use this build, I am committing to something and gambling on the opponent 4gating.
So I have a few questions: 1) If I scout 2 gases, I assume this is a tech build of some sort (e.g. colossus). If they go for Colossus, what should my BO response be? 2) If I scout 2 gases, and then they go 3 Gate Blink, what should my response be? My questions are around responding to 3 Gate Blink or 1 Base Colossus assuming I went for this 1 Gate Robo (13gas build).
Great and easy opening which i now use every time in PvP!
About the 1 base collosi, has anyone tried to expand and get 5 gates + blink or +1? That's my biggest struggle right now since i suck at microing and droping immortals on the colossus isn't really my thing (still cool and fun though)
On March 26 2011 06:41 Janaz wrote: Great and easy opening which i now use every time in PvP!
About the 1 base collosi, has anyone tried to expand and get 5 gates + blink or +1? That's my biggest struggle right now since i suck at microing and droping immortals on the colossus isn't really my thing (still cool and fun though)
I don't think you have enough time/economy to hold that push with blink. The immortal pop tactic is more cost-friendly because you already have the tech and immortals ready to go.
Hey kcdc thanks for this great post and build, it's a lot of fun.
I have a question about how to hold vs someone who opened with a blind Stargate? I use this build on most maps PvP unless I feel like going DTs.
My normal transition is to grab my 2nd gas and get an Obs after the second Immortal pops, followed by expanding with Col tech (my minerals are usually pretty spiked at this point). I'm usually pretty active with my Obs to make sure I don't get DT'd, and rarely does it end up at their base before my Col den finishes. By this point I start to realize that shit looks pretty grim because they haven't expanded.
Anyways I guess my question is: Can this hold vs a 1base Stargate play? Should I be gas stealing every single time to prevent/delay these kind of tech rushes? I was feeling really good with this build up until my last game where this happened.
I didn't make any Colossus, but I couldn't crank out enough Stalkers in time to hold off his attack off of my 2 Gates (added more but didn't get any use before the attack hit).
Not only would I break this with 4gate. ( 6 stalkers 5 zealots at 6:15-6:20 already fight at the top of a ramp).. What if the other player simply changed his tech path to 3 gate stargate after chasing your probe out, and starts spending those cboost on void rays and attacks while you're desperately squeezing out zealot immortal and then getting an observer while saving gas for colossi tech.... You're pretty much flipping a coin. If you try and get the observer out to scout with your immortal won't come even close to in time for a possible 4gate attack.
From the replay i watched " zeal_immo_4_gate__[Star2.org] "
Your opponent did a list of things that just added up to his 4gate being a failure: + Show Spoiler +
-No pairing of workers -late first zealot -extremely early third pylon, for an attacking 4gate -didn't make any additional units out of his first gate after the first stalker (you can easily squeeze out a second stalker) -cut his probes late -gave you a zealot for free -didn't put pylons at your ramp to warp up immediately -didn't warp in units as often as he could, especially early on when having 4 units 15 seconds earlier makes all the difference in a pvp -had semi poor micro, he practically walked into your zealots and immortals with his stalkers -he just randomly decides to engage with his 4gate rush.. He doesn't wait for his warp cycle or try on and reduce the damage he takes with proper micro etc, he just randomly starts pushing up the ramp while not even warping in men at the right time, and when a good portion of his army is dead/missing a lot of heal he decides it's time to warp in..
Just going to re-emphasize that 4gate has 6 stalkers and 5 zealots around 6:15.. with another round of whatever units he wants (2 stalker 2 zealot, or 4zealot) around 6:50.. if you do the math that's 15 units compared to the 8 units he brought into your base at 6:45..
Idk. I think a good 4gater would break this, or someone who like you wants a 12 minute game timing attack, but scouts your robo going down before your stalker finishes, and knows if he builds a stargate with economy and attacks with a few void ray, 3gate army around 11:00 he wins.
The only build I see this being strong against is poorly executed 4gate build orders, and hopeful gimmicky dt play. It could crush blink stalkers, if you have enough random immortals out before colossus, otherwise blink stalkers might just waste you, not to mention even then it comes down to a battle of brute force vs superior mobility... and often turns into a hard to win base trade vs units with higher mobility.
you have 3 zealots a stalker and an immortal, and unfortunately 6 stakers, 5 zealots pretty much crush right through that and in 35 seconds you're going to be looking at another 4 zealots before money even gets tight for the 4gater, just massively outproducing you trying to chrono out immortals and 2gate zealots... and that is the all-important timing to keep in mind. At this point in time he will kill all of your zealots microing his stalkers away from your immortal attacking his zealots, he will kill your zealots before you kill his because 5zealots and 6 stalkers have superior dps vs 3 zealots a stalker and an immortal with even remotely proper micro, and now he's got 1-2 zealots attacking your last remaining immortal/stalker as your second immortal finishes up, so does another wave of 4 zealots right next to his army, making it a breeze to reposition. Not only that he can damage your zealots as they warp in and you really can't do jack about his warping in units.
You don't have a second gas so you can't really squeeze a sentry out anywhere, not forgetting to mention that it's pointless to get a sentry out since your build relies just camping in your base with at most one immortal and one or two stalkers, a protoss can easily protect his pylons vs such a low count of ranged units, and then start warping 4 zealots up the ramp with the ramp vision trick.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=201964 Take a look at this. While I didn't flawlessly execute the build order (sliiightly slow 3rd probe on gas cost me a few seconds, sliiightly slow pylons at ramp and semmmmi bad micro with ramp battle) I just hopped into a game real quick after making this post to show you the timings I'm talking about, comparing them to those in the replays that I watched. I didn't warp up the ramp because I knew I didn't have to worry about forcefield.
The difference between my 4gate and the 4gate of the dude you went up against may not look that different, but that's the difference of a master level 4gate and a mid diamond. You can really take the build into any level of play (in pvp) depending on the level of execution, and understanding the timings of the popular formats of this build are crucial in learning how to defend, delay, or do do yourself.
While I have come close to losing vs these quick robo builds, (while 4gating) it is usually just my fault for not judging the travel distance across maps and making proxy pylons etc.
Thanks for that post chipman, it pretty much explains all the problems I've found with this build the higher and higher I climb up the ladder. The switch to 3-gate Star is auto-loss and impossible to scout.
The other issue I'm having now is like you described, I can't win the micro battle. My Zealots are taking Zealot + Stalker damage and my Immortals are fighting just to get shots off on the Stalkers. It usually ends up with them warping in 4 Zealots mid-fight to convincingly win the battle and subsequently the game.
I was just put onto this build by a friend after mentioning how bad my pvp has become that it's almost an auto-loss (and because I hate pvp "LOL I BUILD DA 4GATE" metagame of the matchup)
But I've just been giving it a go in 3v3s and yes I know it's not meant for it, but this actually does really nicely in team games - having a little extra gas early helps, and if you go down the path of many immortals it can really help the team.
Going to start it up in 1s tomorrow Thanks for the guide kcdc
Not only would I break this with 4gate. ( 6 stalkers 5 zealots at 6:15-6:20 already fight at the top of a ramp).. What if the other player simply changed his tech path to 3 gate stargate after chasing your probe out, and starts spending those cboost on void rays and attacks while you're desperately squeezing out zealot immortal and then getting an observer while saving gas for colossi tech.... You're pretty much flipping a coin. If you try and get the observer out to scout with your immortal won't come even close to in time for a possible 4gate attack.
From the replay i watched " zeal_immo_4_gate__[Star2.org] "
Your opponent did a list of things that just added up to his 4gate being a failure: + Show Spoiler +
-No pairing of workers -late first zealot -extremely early third pylon, for an attacking 4gate -didn't make any additional units out of his first gate after the first stalker (you can easily squeeze out a second stalker) -cut his probes late -gave you a zealot for free -didn't put pylons at your ramp to warp up immediately -didn't warp in units as often as he could, especially early on when having 4 units 15 seconds earlier makes all the difference in a pvp -had semi poor micro, he practically walked into your zealots and immortals with his stalkers -he just randomly decides to engage with his 4gate rush.. He doesn't wait for his warp cycle or try on and reduce the damage he takes with proper micro etc, he just randomly starts pushing up the ramp while not even warping in men at the right time, and when a good portion of his army is dead/missing a lot of heal he decides it's time to warp in..
Just going to re-emphasize that 4gate has 6 stalkers and 5 zealots around 6:15.. with another round of whatever units he wants (2 stalker 2 zealot, or 4zealot) around 6:50.. if you do the math that's 15 units compared to the 8 units he brought into your base at 6:45..
Idk. I think a good 4gater would break this, or someone who like you wants a 12 minute game timing attack, but scouts your robo going down before your stalker finishes, and knows if he builds a stargate with economy and attacks with a few void ray, 3gate army around 11:00 he wins.
The only build I see this being strong against is poorly executed 4gate build orders, and hopeful gimmicky dt play. It could crush blink stalkers, if you have enough random immortals out before colossus, otherwise blink stalkers might just waste you, not to mention even then it comes down to a battle of brute force vs superior mobility... and often turns into a hard to win base trade vs units with higher mobility.
you have 3 zealots a stalker and an immortal, and unfortunately 6 stakers, 5 zealots pretty much crush right through that and in 35 seconds you're going to be looking at another 4 zealots before money even gets tight for the 4gater, just massively outproducing you trying to chrono out immortals and 2gate zealots... and that is the all-important timing to keep in mind. At this point in time he will kill all of your zealots microing his stalkers away from your immortal attacking his zealots, he will kill your zealots before you kill his because 5zealots and 6 stalkers have superior dps vs 3 zealots a stalker and an immortal with even remotely proper micro, and now he's got 1-2 zealots attacking your last remaining immortal/stalker as your second immortal finishes up, so does another wave of 4 zealots right next to his army, making it a breeze to reposition. Not only that he can damage your zealots as they warp in and you really can't do jack about his warping in units.
You don't have a second gas so you can't really squeeze a sentry out anywhere, not forgetting to mention that it's pointless to get a sentry out since your build relies just camping in your base with at most one immortal and one or two stalkers, a protoss can easily protect his pylons vs such a low count of ranged units, and then start warping 4 zealots up the ramp with the ramp vision trick.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=201964 Take a look at this. While I didn't flawlessly execute the build order (sliiightly slow 3rd probe on gas cost me a few seconds, sliiightly slow pylons at ramp and semmmmi bad micro with ramp battle) I just hopped into a game real quick after making this post to show you the timings I'm talking about, comparing them to those in the replays that I watched. I didn't warp up the ramp because I knew I didn't have to worry about forcefield.
The difference between my 4gate and the 4gate of the dude you went up against may not look that different, but that's the difference of a master level 4gate and a mid diamond. You can really take the build into any level of play (in pvp) depending on the level of execution, and understanding the timings of the popular formats of this build are crucial in learning how to defend, delay, or do do yourself.
While I have come close to losing vs these quick robo builds, (while 4gating) it is usually just my fault for not judging the travel distance across maps and making proxy pylons etc.
That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote: That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote: That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate?
A more obvious giveaway is the way their force looks. 2 stalker 1 zealot is a good indication that 4 more stalkers at 5:45 are coming.
On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote: That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate?
A more obvious giveaway is the way their force looks. 2 stalker 1 zealot is a good indication that 4 more stalkers at 5:45 are coming.
thats much harder to scout in time though
and I dont know why you say that, if anything it might suggest he wants to delay your proxy?
On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote: That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate?
To hit that super early timing, they have to cut probes early, use only 2 chrono on something other than WG research, no second gas, and no third pylon before 3 extra gates. You should always keep track of how aggressive your opponent can be given what you've scouted. This opening is pretty strong defensively once you get to ~6 minutes. If their build can attack well before that, you need to adjust.
On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote: That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate?
A more obvious giveaway is the way their force looks. 2 stalker 1 zealot is a good indication that 4 more stalkers at 5:45 are coming.
thats much harder to scout in time though
and I dont know why you say that, if anything it might suggest he wants to delay your proxy?
Totally my mistake I basically misread the post. What I said only applies to what type of 4 gate to expect, not whether or not the opponent is 4gating.
Look for 12 gate (compare building HP to yours to find out if its earlier or later), then two pylons, then the placing of the cybercore. If he saves his CB on his nexus after using 2 (compare to how many you have used and ur energy), that's a sign that some 4gate variant is coming.
On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote: That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate?
To hit that super early timing, they have to cut probes early, use only 2 chrono on something other than WG research, no second gas, and no third pylon before 3 extra gates. You should always keep track of how aggressive your opponent can be given what you've scouted. This opening is pretty strong defensively once you get to ~6 minutes. If their build can attack well before that, you need to adjust.
Wondering how you would adjust accordingly, I've scouted them last on 4 player maps so 2 gating isn't an option even after pylon scout. Say your plan was to open with this, but scouted 10 gate 4 gate as opposed to 12, what do you advise?
On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote: That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate?
To hit that super early timing, they have to cut probes early, use only 2 chrono on something other than WG research, no second gas, and no third pylon before 3 extra gates. You should always keep track of how aggressive your opponent can be given what you've scouted. This opening is pretty strong defensively once you get to ~6 minutes. If their build can attack well before that, you need to adjust.
Wondering how you would adjust accordingly, I've scouted them last on 4 player maps so 2 gating isn't an option even after pylon scout. Say your plan was to open with this, but scouted 10 gate 4 gate as opposed to 12, what do you advise?
The 10 gate 4gate is really strong but is entirely contingent on the forward pylon not being threatened. If that forward pylon is gone, the 10 gate timing loses it's 15 second advantage and the player is now behind because you cut more probes when ramping up for a 10 gate 4gate. Advice: Try and find the forward pylon, it should be placed close by, as late as 5:00 minutes into the game, but usually a little before that because of how income/supply ends up working out.
On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote: That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate?
To hit that super early timing, they have to cut probes early, use only 2 chrono on something other than WG research, no second gas, and no third pylon before 3 extra gates. You should always keep track of how aggressive your opponent can be given what you've scouted. This opening is pretty strong defensively once you get to ~6 minutes. If their build can attack well before that, you need to adjust.
Wondering how you would adjust accordingly, I've scouted them last on 4 player maps so 2 gating isn't an option even after pylon scout. Say your plan was to open with this, but scouted 10 gate 4 gate as opposed to 12, what do you advise?
For K4G, I like to cut probes at 20, take 2 probes off gas after 100, and chrono out as many zealots as possible while adding gates. You're too far behind on WG research to defend with warpgates, so you need to just have enough stuff ahead of time to weather the storm till WG finishes.
On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote: That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate?
To hit that super early timing, they have to cut probes early, use only 2 chrono on something other than WG research, no second gas, and no third pylon before 3 extra gates. You should always keep track of how aggressive your opponent can be given what you've scouted. This opening is pretty strong defensively once you get to ~6 minutes. If their build can attack well before that, you need to adjust.
Wondering how you would adjust accordingly, I've scouted them last on 4 player maps so 2 gating isn't an option even after pylon scout. Say your plan was to open with this, but scouted 10 gate 4 gate as opposed to 12, what do you advise?
For K4G, I like to cut probes at 20, take 2 probes off gas after 100, and chrono out as many zealots as possible while adding gates. You're too far behind on WG research to defend with warpgates, so you need to just have enough stuff ahead of time to weather the storm till WG finishes.
Will keep that in mind, I've also been seeing a lot of 10 gate-4 gate with stalker play, though I'm pretty sure pulling probes still puts me ahead in econ if I need to hold that.
Back on topic of the original post, I use this build in pvp and have yet to lose to a 4 gate with it if I don't make any mistakes. I usually tech to 1 base colossus after the 6 30 mark if I don't get 4 gated. I've changed it slightly to add a 3rd gate as opposed to the earlier zealots, but that is only because I like the spike in production since I've hit delayed 4 gates from time to time.
Also, I think this is still usable on Tal Darim Altar. Since by the time his second stalker arrives to do the poke you'll have a second zeal to push them back, unless they decide to micro around inside your base, I don't see it as being too much of an issue.
Do you really run in to...late 4 gates that this works against very often? Generally I either face a defensive 4 gate which this would obviously be fine against (you could even be a little more greedy with an early 2nd gas) or an offensive 4 gate with 2 chrono's on probes, 1 on gateway, and rest on warpgate. No way this would work against that. He'd have your 3 units dead before the immo even popped (2 zealot 1 stalker *WONT* stop proxy pylon)
On April 16 2011 05:12 Complete wrote: Do you really run in to...late 4 gates that this works against very often? Generally I either face a defensive 4 gate which this would obviously be fine against (you could even be a little more greedy with an early 2nd gas) or an offensive 4 gate with 2 chrono's on probes, 1 on gateway, and rest on warpgate. No way this would work against that. He'd have your 3 units dead before the immo even popped (2 zealot 1 stalker *WONT* stop proxy pylon)
The reason 4 gates end up being late is because from their scout probe, this looks like a 4 gate, unless there's some other read they get, they won't know it's a fast robo build. Most people just defensively 4 gate, when they don't get hit, they go offensive with it.
As far as the "balls-to-the-wall 4 gate" goes, this build works against it fine, there are replays. If you mean my take on it, it also works, and I can provide replays as well.
Forgot to address one other point, you don't need to stop their proxy pylon, the timings work out anyway. If they attack you, you can push them back (since they have to kite your 2 zealots) long enough for your immortal to pop, at which point retreat into your base and start the micro war.
This build demolishes every 4gate except for the fastest ones, which are pretty easy to scout and adapt too. I use this build on maps without ramps and even then have no problems.
One big thing I've found with it is that you really can't afford to delay your Robo. It's almost affordable before the 3rd Pylon but not quite [gas restriction] (if you drop it at Pylon 24, Robo at 25/26), and it can't go down much later than that for this to hold. Keep this in mind when placing your 2nd Pylon, as you may need to tuck that Robo away somewhere if you are keen on denying scouting. In any case, your Stalker pops very shortly after you want to be warping it in, so you can get that Probe out of your base asap.
Also important is to make sure you are saving Chrono so that you have at least 2 to dump into your first Immortal. I like to only use 2 on Probes, 1 on first Zealot, then 1 on Stalker + Warpgate to make it look like a 4-gate. From there it's just banked for Immortals.
You can pretty much make Probes nonstop until the attack happens, and sometimes even through it but I like to hold them, preserve units and not miss Pylons (obviously). It's ok to add a 3rd gate if you get nervous and is very affordable without missing production.
This a very good build indeed, and I'm suprised I don't see more people using it.
The problem with other robo builds that rely on sentry is you 100% give up on map control and you won't be able to put out pressure. You are basicly stuck in your base and leave your opponent to do what he wants. This build fakes a 4gate which means people have to respect that and prepare accordingly.
Ever since I started using this on ladder I'm actually happy when I get a PvP
I've started using this build a lot lately againsts all races actually. I found that an immortal more powerful than 2 Stalkers by a lot although they can't shoot air. So by forgoing the ability to shoot air, you get a more powerful ground unit. Nice thing is that people rarely go early air nowadays aside from protoss void rays... but void rays are fragile ...a few stalkers when you see them should be able to hold. (unless they mix in phoenix to do lifts... then you're now in trouble)
Againsts terran, immortal just murders marauders. The more marauders they have, the easier you will be able to hold.
Same thing with Zerg's Roaches. The problem I had was when they go heavy heavy zergling...
Is this build still viable post 1.3.3 patch now?? Do we need to 'sacrifice' economy as much now for that early immortal due to the 4WG 20second delay??
My question is, is this a good optimal opener for PvP now?
On May 13 2011 09:49 bankai wrote: Is this build still viable post 1.3.3 patch now?? Do we need to 'sacrifice' economy as much now for that early immortal due to the 4WG 20second delay??
My question is, is this a good optimal opener for PvP now?
This build is alive because it only needed 10 more seconds to be safe vs 4 gate and it got 20. Noone knows how pvp will be affected by the 1.3.3 but this build is a good start maybe it will be viable 1 month from now maybe not.
Robo builds are strong vs blink stalker and they are not very weak vs stargate.
To all ye who have been asking: I still find this quite viable post-patch.
I've been doing this since just before 1.3.3 when I was at about 25% win ratio in PvPs - I'm still currently around 75% after doing this.
Do this build and with good scouting and reaction to said scouting - you WILL win. As noted, it counters 3gate blink, DT, and 4gate - plus you have the early transition into colossus IF you need to do it.
Other viable transitions I've found are:
- Mass chargelot (smashes people who do many stalkers without blink) - Heavy Immortals (smashes people who attempt to expo behind a 4gate/weird-5gate)
This build is completely inferior to a 2 gas gate-robo-gate build now. Getting a fast 2nd gas and 1 sentry will make the build better at stopping 4 gates AND better against other stuff.
On maps with a wide ramp this build is still suicide, 4 gate zealot/stalker beats 2 gate robo zealot/immortal with proper micro.
On June 12 2011 19:54 Markwerf wrote: This build is completely inferior to a 2 gas gate-robo-gate build now. Getting a fast 2nd gas and 1 sentry will make the build better at stopping 4 gates AND better against other stuff.
On maps with a wide ramp this build is still suicide, 4 gate zealot/stalker beats 2 gate robo zealot/immortal with proper micro.
How fast is the 2nd gas? And does that still include getting the first gas at 13?
I'm still finding 13/13 viable, but I might give that a go instead.
Question about this I do a variation on this. After my core I put down a robotics bay with the first 100 gas. Then stalker then immortal and cronobost it, put down a second gas then do warpgates. and then second gateway. Is the OP way better?
On June 20 2011 10:14 jere wrote: Question about this I do a variation on this. After my core I put down a robotics bay with the first 100 gas. Then stalker then immortal and cronobost it, put down a second gas then do warpgates. and then second gateway. Is the OP way better?
Despite the fact that (in theory) your Immortal will be out a bit quicker - you are incredibly vulnerable to the 3stalker push and/or 1zeal/1stalker early attack.
I wouldn't really advise skipping the stalker. Also not to mention - you'll have no viable way to check for proxy pylons either, unless you use a probe - which is also detrimental.
Sometimes I have almost lost purely because of the 3stalker rush, but normally the immo pops out just in time anyway - thus there really isn't any need to skip the early stalker unless you're doing some non-standard immortal attack.
Uh oh, necro posting ITT. This build is slightly outdated and should not be used post 1.3.3. Please don't revive the thread by posting how it works for you. Any build CAN work but this build is inferior to 2 gas robo builds in every way post 1.3.3. Let the build rest in peace.
On July 06 2011 09:45 Packeteer wrote: Uh oh, necro posting ITT. This build is slightly outdated and should not be used post 1.3.3. Please don't revive the thread by posting how it works for you. Any build CAN work but this build is inferior to 2 gas robo builds in every way post 1.3.3. Let the build rest in peace.
I really can't agree with this. I want to revive this because it's a sweet build that I've used with lots of success lately. It's safe against 4-gate, pretty much destroys blink openings, and gets you fast colossus. And it looks like a 4-gate, which 2-gas fast robo does not. And personally I've found 2 gas fast robo into super-fast colossus is a bit weak to really good blink timings, which is a weakness this 1-gas robo build does not have (imo). If you are doing this build and your opponent is doing 2 gas fast robo, he might have a small advantage, but that's no reason to totally stop discussion of this build!
I'm also reviving this thread because I've made a video demonstrating it which I hope will illustrate some of the great concepts:
PvP is not just about build orders. Mindgames play a huge role in the matchup. If I get my gas stolen and don't manage to steal my opponent's gas I always go for a Robo right after I chased out my opponent's scouting probe because I'm scared of blink and DTs. This build may be inferior to 2 gas Robo builds but in certain circumstances it's a good thing to do in my opinion.
This opening has a somewhat different feel in 1.4. 4-gate is no longer much of an issue, but I think that plays to the strength of this build in certain ways. Many times, your opponent lets you see something that tells you they can't 4-gate hard (2 gas, 3rd pylon, constant probe production, stealing your gas, etc), which allows you to continue probe production and head straight for an ultra-fast observer before your first immortal. In close air positions, this allows you to play reactively much earlier than you can with other builds.
Additionally, people are teching straight to colossi pretty frequently now that 4 gate is less scary, and immortal popping (particularly with the immortal range and warp prism health buffs) owns colossi builds if you have the micro.
Blink builds gave me problems before the patch because I am so zealot heavy, but the timing is now late enough to hold easily. You can't expand quickly into a blink build like you can against a robo build, but you should have the quick obs to react to his opening and you're safer to tech now.
The big downside is that phoenix openings are much better post-1.4 and phoenix openings own this opening pretty hard. It's still my best opening in PvP, and I think, on balance, its place in the metagame has improved since I first posted the guide.
Is there any reason to still do it as a 1-gas build? Previously the idea was to have a very streamlined build so that it could handle a 4gate, but as sentries are now the key to early game defence in any PvP with a ramp, would it now always be better to get the second gas?
On September 27 2011 03:32 Jumbled wrote: Is there any reason to still do it as a 1-gas build? Previously the idea was to have a very streamlined build so that it could handle a 4gate, but as sentries are now the key to early game defence in any PvP with a ramp, would it now always be better to get the second gas?
A 2 gas version would really be an entirely different build. With 2 gas, you defend with sentries, and you play a colossus build.
With this build, I play aggressively with zealots and immortals, and typically stay on 1 gas the whole game if my opponent goes robo. While you can configure a robo build that takes a second gas and is safe against 4 gate, you won't have the minerals to play my anti-robo style where I'm able to expand AND deny a colossus player's expansion.
I've had an unreasonable amount of success against this build with a Phoenix build, as kcdc mentions. If they go for obs first from their robo, I can often just lift the sentry and walk up their ramp and kill them. However, if the robo player does manage to hold, I've found it a bit more difficult to finish them off, due to the fact that Phoenix's aren't great at just outright killing people.
I still prefer the Phoenix build to the robo, but that's based entirely on metagame right now. You can basically do it blindly and most players will robo with an observer first.
EDIT: Even if they don't build a sentry, it's still a pretty easy win most of the time. I'll usually just wait until I have an additional Phoenix at that point before pushing out to attack to lift and attempt to give myself the unit advantage on the ground.