Never have I ever tried to do one of these, so bear with me. Credentials are about nill and none -- I'm ehh. At the moment, 2850 master Terran. I'm not completely got down all the timings myself, but the more I run this open vs zerg on open maps -- Metalopolis, Xelnaga, Scrap (The best map possible), the more I am falling in love with this two prong harass into a marine, tank (with siege), hellion, landed viking, medic, scv on auto repair at about 10-11 minutes after a hellion harass -> viking harass (In the air and on the ground.) I'm sure I'll have to edit and fix a ton. Just a very strong TvZ strat I've been running that on certain maps it dominates.
Long and short of it -- If they don't blind baneling you, you're set on two bases if the push doesn't win the game right there, with 1-1-1, and two OCs, with a push that hits right before mutas pop with a very possible injection cycle mess up.
General build order I use: (Cut no SCVS) 10 Supply (on 2 player map, build at ramp as soon as 100 finishes, and send to their nat. 7/10 the time you can patrol and delay their FE) 12 Rax -> 3 marines then reactor 13 gas 15 OC 16 Supply ~19-21 Factory (Depends if you bunker harass or feint one at least) ~20-21 Reactor on barracks 22 CC in base 22 supply depot Swap factory with barracks Land barracks and start a reactor on it 22 hellion 24 hellion 25 Refinery 26 starport 28 hellion 30 hellion 31 supply depot
From here depending on losses no more numbers Once barracks reactor finishes, never stop making marines. After 4 hellions, lift factory and land with a tech lab, and land the starport on the empty reactor. Make 2 vikings and use general overlord position knowledge to get your first free two kills.
When fac lands, make a tank + siege tech After 4 vikings, 1 medic 1 viking (Still making marines!) Around this time with 3-4 hellions on the field at towers, and vikings taking out OL scouting spots by your ledges/edges/sides, you have almost COMPLETE map control. This is when I land my expo and maynard my scvs and double mule. You have more than enough scvs after a CC in base making 2-3 SCVs from it then floating it.
Never give up pressure with hellions, avoid losing all 4. Pick off as many units, drones, slings etc as you can. Stay near and pick off tumors if you see it pop up.
After 4 vikings are made -- Go OL hunting! The best reaction a zerg can do is get more queens. If they fast lair for mutas, that means 3 queens at this point, max 4. Pick off as many OLs as possible -- abuse range and kite around. Appear to back off and land on a cliff/side/behind minerals/Fog of war and (1) snipe queen down. 4 landed vikings eat a queen up. If they run it, go for drones. 4 vikings 1 hit drones. Very important to NOT lose these 4.
Many a game I've landed at the cliff on scrap by nat (heaven setup, walk down and studder the queen before they can notice), behind the minerals on xelnaga, or the fog ring on metalopolis. Walk in, and mow shit down. Don't lift at all once if you kill the queen and no AA is around. Milk it. Kill queen, workers when they run, pop back up and hit the OLs again.
About 10 minutes, you'll have around 12-14 marines, 4-5 vikings, 3-4 hellions, 2 tanks (3rd coming) with siege, 1 medic, pull 12 scvs (auto repair on). Abuse your map control and pause at a tower to relish the upcoming battle. Pull vikings back and land and repair with scvs, repair hellions. Keep a scan ready to pick off tumors and delay creep spread as a little kick in the balls. Push in with the ball as a ball and mow down anything you see. Position decently with tanks, and scoot hellions to drones/zerglings if possible.
Army ball size is SO huge that if they don't blind baneling, you will walk over their army with half decent micro and positioning. Keep making marines at home, and 1 viking 1 medic 1 tank cycles. Pop two refineries down at expo, and 2 more barracks with 2 tech labs for quick stim/CS if the push doesn't infact win the game.
How to change it/spice it up a bit if you want -- Instead of 4 hellion -> swap, once port is done make a dropship, load 2 hellions 6 marines. Poke around with 4 hellions at the front, drop the rest at main and dual prong. Pull back and lift off. Then go with reactor swap, make 4 vikings, and tanks and go.
Land factory with tech lab and get blue flame and hellions instead of tanks and siege. Eats up heavy ling users badly -- even if the push falls you can lift some BFs and drop at a mineral line to roast as many bugs as possible.
Land the factory with a reactor. This is VERY all in. Triple reactor, so pull 3/4 of your scvs with your 6-10 hellions 6-8 vikings, 12-14 marines, and go and push hard and fast. The longer you let them prepare the worse it goes.
Random timings -- if both harasses go decent, mutas won't be popping until 8-9 minutes, at the earliest! But, with viking harass and drone snipes you can push it back to 10+. But when harass with vikings take note of lair time, of queen count, drone count, buildings, if spires made, if he's going roaches etc.
Replays -- Some have different timings and builds depending on how the game went and opponent reacted. It's a very, very flexible build after the 4 viking harass.
2700 master Z on scrap
vs 2700 master Z on xelnaga (mess up forgetting siege and still walk)
vs 1700 master z prac partner (custom game master, way better than 1.7k) Delta Quad
Me smurfing (friends name) vs 3k zerg on Xelnaga
vs 1700 master on Blistering Sands
vs 2800 master Z on scrap
vs 2.9-3k master Z friend of mine on Xel naga
vs 2550 master Z on scrap
vs2600 master on xel naga
I hope that's enough examples and I didn't totally butcher this. I am looking for holes in it, and any changes I can make. Yes, I have lost with it. Sometimes very badly if the push down right fails. However. 9/10 it does some EPIC damage, and sets you even 2 base vs 2 base with 3/1/1. Any zergs, please poke holes through this for me. It's by no means a god sent strategy. but it sure is strong. I've had countless games that after harassing with hellion viking and then push comes in sight zergs leave lol.
Hope you enjoy and can try it! Doesn't take a lot of APM. I got 100-120 max. Just requires swapping and harassing skills.
this is really good man, imma have to try this out. Thanks for the well written, well-thought out guide. I've long said terran is about harassing to hold the advantage while you build up, im glad to see builds coming out based off of that for most match ups.
I assume you are building that barracks as part of your wall and if I am incorrect please let me know. As zerg when I get my lings I like to have them patrol the map and occasionally stop them in front of your base and send 1 up to poke to check your structures, army, and if your depot is down. Since you’re doing multiple switches at your front wall you let me have a higher chance of getting a run by and kill your mineral line. Not only could it be a run by due to add-on switching but it could be a careless supply depot that was left down, which focusing on switching stuff and CC.
What if the oponent make mutas and for you to have some marines back home or to make more static defenses, is this a concern? I understand that by the timming of the build, he won't have many mutas out, and he will be very concerned about the hellion harass, but I want to know what does your experience tells about it.
On February 15 2011 01:54 Autunno wrote: What if the oponent make mutas and for you to have some marines back home or to make more static defenses, is this a concern? I understand that by the timming of the build, he won't have many mutas out, and he will be very concerned about the hellion harass, but I want to know what does your experience tells about it.
This is a good point, because if he goes to harass with mutas and you meet his force in open combat there is no point to having the Vikings really unless you’re going to land them.
On February 15 2011 01:48 P0ckets wrote: I assume you are building that barracks as part of your wall and if I am incorrect please let me know. As zerg when I get my lings I like to have them patrol the map and occasionally stop them in front of your base and send 1 up to poke to check your structures, army, and if your depot is down. Since you’re doing multiple switches at your front wall you let me have a higher chance of getting a run by and kill your mineral line. Not only could it be a run by due to add-on switching but it could be a careless supply depot that was left down, which focusing on switching stuff and CC.
This is easily solved by paying attention to your base.
The only way for you to see if anything is misplaced is to have a scout up there, which I doubt, because marines are very good at repelling overlords and lings (with cover). Your chance is only high for the above requirement, and it becomes null if you can't see the wall because of the terran denying scouting.
On February 15 2011 01:48 P0ckets wrote: I assume you are building that barracks as part of your wall and if I am incorrect please let me know. As zerg when I get my lings I like to have them patrol the map and occasionally stop them in front of your base and send 1 up to poke to check your structures, army, and if your depot is down. Since you’re doing multiple switches at your front wall you let me have a higher chance of getting a run by and kill your mineral line. Not only could it be a run by due to add-on switching but it could be a careless supply depot that was left down, which focusing on switching stuff and CC.
This is easily solved by paying attention to your base.
The only way for you to see if anything is misplaced is to have a scout up there, which I doubt, because marines are very good at repelling overlords and lings (with cover). Your chance is only high for the above requirement, and it becomes null if you can't see the wall because of the terran denying scouting.
Your denial of scouting has to be absolutely spot on because if the zerg decides to sac the ovi for scouting you will need to really put the hurt on it and almost before it even enters the base.
Also what is your actual goal with the Vikings? Is it to snipe ovis or to counter the mutas? If it is to counter the mutas it might be best to not hunter ovis and give the zerg a chance to decide if they want to add corruptors to their unit mix.
Interesting...I like the opening! Marines + Reactor -> Reactored Hellions makes for a solid early game push. However the transition is iffy...I personally would leave it more open and react instead. Too allin for my taste, but a good opener to expand behind nonetheless.
I only have the vikings in the air to OL hunt. Otherwise, they're on the ground to add to the insane DPS.
To the ling run by guy -- Of course it's at my wall. No, you won't get a ling in. I have 3 marines there just for that exact situation. By the time my hellions are out, unless you pool first, I got a minute + without sling speed and 2-4 hellions on the field.
If you see spire, you put down an ebay, and a turret at each mineral line. They cannot, CANNOT afford to go harass. You obviously didn't watch a game, or else that wouldn't even be said. The size of this army requires full zerg attention.
Please explain what you will see if you sack an OL? I put fac and rax at front, both reactor. You'll see that. You better get it in before 7 minute, because after that vikings are out and you KNOW they're out and I'm picking off EVERY OL that's a spotter. Those marines are in the base to be put at the edge where OLs like to sneak in.
And, the most mutas I've had pop on me was like 5-6 when my push hit. With the 10-12 marines + lifting 4-5 vikings the mutas stand no chance. Range of viking lets them not try to even begin to pick off a tank or a medic.
Watch it and try it. Most zergs won't even make it to mutas unless they blind bane and repel you with banelings. Infact, that's about the worst reaction I've faced was fast right to mutas.
I have no trouble if they scout my base and see reactors. I can very well sac my push and continue to harass/drop harass and take my 2nd safely and push out at 2 thors if need be.
Interesting...I like the opening! Marines + Reactor -> Reactored Hellions makes for a solid early game push. However the transition is iffy...I personally would leave it more open and react instead. Too allin and 1 basey for my taste, but a good opener to expand behind nonetheless.
...1 base? I expo at 7-8 minutes. I push at 10. I have 2 bases by the time I leave and do enough damage that I could transition to mass scvs and win most times.
By having the 2nd CC in base for the first 2-3 scvs, you have successfully over saturated your main, to transfer 10 or so, and pull 10 or so for the push. You can afford it because of mules and staying on 1-1-1 you can afford scvs/depots/marines/tanks/vikings/medic. All of em without issue.
On February 15 2011 02:10 iAmJeffReY wrote: I only have the vikings in the air to OL hunt. Otherwise, they're on the ground to add to the insane DPS.
To the ling run by guy -- Of course it's at my wall. No, you won't get a ling in. I have 3 marines there just for that exact situation. By the time my hellions are out, unless you pool first, I got a minute + without sling speed and 2-4 hellions on the field.
If you see spire, you put down an ebay, and a turret at each mineral line. They cannot, CANNOT afford to go harass. You obviously didn't watch a game, or else that wouldn't even be said. The size of this army requires full zerg attention.
Please explain what you will see if you sack an OL? I put fac and rax at front, both reactor. You'll see that. You better get it in before 7 minute, because after that vikings are out and you KNOW they're out and I'm picking off EVERY OL that's a spotter. Those marines are in the base to be put at the edge where OLs like to sneak in.
And, the most mutas I've had pop on me was like 5-6 when my push hit. With the 10-12 marines + lifting 4-5 vikings the mutas stand no chance. Range of viking lets them not try to even begin to pick off a tank or a medic.
Watch it and try it. Most zergs won't even make it to mutas unless they blind bane and repel you with banelings. Infact, that's about the worst reaction I've faced was fast right to mutas.
I have no trouble if they scout my base and see reactors. I can very well sac my push and continue to harass/drop harass and take my 2nd safely and push out at 2 thors if need be.
Interesting...I like the opening! Marines + Reactor -> Reactored Hellions makes for a solid early game push. However the transition is iffy...I personally would leave it more open and react instead. Too allin and 1 basey for my taste, but a good opener to expand behind nonetheless.
...1 base? I expo at 7-8 minutes. I push at 10. I have 2 bases by the time I leave and do enough damage that I could transition to mass scvs and win most times.
By having the 2nd CC in base for the first 2-3 scvs, you have successfully over saturated your main, to transfer 10 or so, and pull 10 or so for the push. You can afford it because of mules and staying on 1-1-1 you can afford scvs/depots/marines/tanks/vikings/medic. All of em without issue.
Whoooooooooops I missed THAT part of the post xD.
Ignore me, solid strat still. I just prefer a different type of mid game Sorry!
On February 15 2011 02:10 iAmJeffReY wrote: I only have the vikings in the air to OL hunt. Otherwise, they're on the ground to add to the insane DPS.
To the ling run by guy -- Of course it's at my wall. No, you won't get a ling in. I have 3 marines there just for that exact situation. By the time my hellions are out, unless you pool first, I got a minute + without sling speed and 2-4 hellions on the field.
Lings can run by a bunker with 3 marines no problem if there is an opening. You will manage to kill some but the majority would get by.
If you see spire, you put down an ebay, and a turret at each mineral line. They cannot, CANNOT afford to go harass. You obviously didn't watch a game, or else that wouldn't even be said. The size of this army requires full zerg attention.
Please explain what you will see if you sack an OL? I put fac and rax at front, both reactor. You'll see that. You better get it in before 7 minute, because after that vikings are out and you KNOW they're out and I'm picking off EVERY OL that's a spotter. Those marines are in the base to be put at the edge where OLs like to sneak in.
There are many zergs who instead of scouting with a drone or with a scouting drone, sacrifice and overlord at around the five minute mark, which could give them an idea of the route you are going or at least see the CC being built. Also I can’t speak for other zergs but I set two ovis around my opponents base with one on each side and if I poke 1 way and marines are sitting there I try the other. This also means that those 3 marines are now not in the bunker defending your front, I think you are hypothesizing about having more marines to accomplish the defense at front and denial of scouting. But as I have said, I have yet to see your replays so I could be wrong and you have amazing gosu sense about unit positioning.
And, the most mutas I've had pop on me was like 5-6 when my push hit. With the 10-12 marines + lifting 4-5 vikings the mutas stand no chance. Range of viking lets them not try to even begin to pick off a tank or a medic.
Watch it and try it. Most zergs won't even make it to mutas unless they blind bane and repel you with banelings. Infact, that's about the worst reaction I've faced was fast right to mutas.
I have no trouble if they scout my base and see reactors. I can very well sac my push and continue to harass/drop harass and take my 2nd safely and push out at 2 thors if need be.
Interesting...I like the opening! Marines + Reactor -> Reactored Hellions makes for a solid early game push. However the transition is iffy...I personally would leave it more open and react instead. Too allin and 1 basey for my taste, but a good opener to expand behind nonetheless.
...1 base? I expo at 7-8 minutes. I push at 10. I have 2 bases by the time I leave and do enough damage that I could transition to mass scvs and win most times.
By having the 2nd CC in base for the first 2-3 scvs, you have successfully over saturated your main, to transfer 10 or so, and pull 10 or so for the push. You can afford it because of mules and staying on 1-1-1 you can afford scvs/depots/marines/tanks/vikings/medic. All of em without issue.
Also I see no reason for why your so aggressive and angry with your post. You asked for people to poke holes in you strat if they could so try not to sound like a dick when you response to something you ask for.
...1 base? I expo at 7-8 minutes. I push at 10. I have 2 bases by the time I leave and do enough damage that I could transition to mass scvs and win most times.
By having the 2nd CC in base for the first 2-3 scvs, you have successfully over saturated your main, to transfer 10 or so, and pull 10 or so for the push. You can afford it because of mules and staying on 1-1-1 you can afford scvs/depots/marines/tanks/vikings/medic. All of em without issue.
Seriously, if you expo at 8 minutes, and take 10 SCVs with you to the push, unless it does a HUGE amount of damage, you are going to lose. Your build is basically a 1 base all-in, that gets an expo for no really good reason. You should either focus on getting the most possible units for damage from 1 base, in which case more marines for example, would be superior to more SCVs, OR instead, focus on getting an expansion up, and then once you get extra income, and thus extra production from the expo, push with that.
In your case, the expo serves no purpose. If you fail to do damage, since you sacrificed 3/4th of your SCVs, you are still dead, despite having an expo, because you are now way way behind in economy. If you do do damage, then great. But since you sacced 3/4th of your SCVs, you still have to do a ton of damage, so its basically an all-in. So if you didnt expand, you could probably have done even more damage instead.
On February 15 2011 02:10 iAmJeffReY wrote: I only have the vikings in the air to OL hunt. Otherwise, they're on the ground to add to the insane DPS.
To the ling run by guy -- Of course it's at my wall. No, you won't get a ling in. I have 3 marines there just for that exact situation. By the time my hellions are out, unless you pool first, I got a minute + without sling speed and 2-4 hellions on the field.
Lings can run by a bunker with 3 marines no problem if there is an opening. You will manage to kill some but the majority would get by.
If you see spire, you put down an ebay, and a turret at each mineral line. They cannot, CANNOT afford to go harass. You obviously didn't watch a game, or else that wouldn't even be said. The size of this army requires full zerg attention.
Please explain what you will see if you sack an OL? I put fac and rax at front, both reactor. You'll see that. You better get it in before 7 minute, because after that vikings are out and you KNOW they're out and I'm picking off EVERY OL that's a spotter. Those marines are in the base to be put at the edge where OLs like to sneak in.
There are many zergs who instead of scouting with a drone or with a scouting drone, sacrifice and overlord at around the five minute mark, which could give them an idea of the route you are going or at least see the CC being built. Also I can’t speak for other zergs but I set two ovis around my opponents base with one on each side and if I poke 1 way and marines are sitting there I try the other. This also means that those 3 marines are now not in the bunker defending your front, I think you are hypothesizing about having more marines to accomplish the defense at front and denial of scouting. But as I have said, I have yet to see your replays so I could be wrong and you have amazing gosu sense about unit positioning.
And, the most mutas I've had pop on me was like 5-6 when my push hit. With the 10-12 marines + lifting 4-5 vikings the mutas stand no chance. Range of viking lets them not try to even begin to pick off a tank or a medic.
Watch it and try it. Most zergs won't even make it to mutas unless they blind bane and repel you with banelings. Infact, that's about the worst reaction I've faced was fast right to mutas.
I have no trouble if they scout my base and see reactors. I can very well sac my push and continue to harass/drop harass and take my 2nd safely and push out at 2 thors if need be.
Interesting...I like the opening! Marines + Reactor -> Reactored Hellions makes for a solid early game push. However the transition is iffy...I personally would leave it more open and react instead. Too allin and 1 basey for my taste, but a good opener to expand behind nonetheless.
...1 base? I expo at 7-8 minutes. I push at 10. I have 2 bases by the time I leave and do enough damage that I could transition to mass scvs and win most times.
By having the 2nd CC in base for the first 2-3 scvs, you have successfully over saturated your main, to transfer 10 or so, and pull 10 or so for the push. You can afford it because of mules and staying on 1-1-1 you can afford scvs/depots/marines/tanks/vikings/medic. All of em without issue.
Also I see no reason for why your so aggressive and angry with your post. You asked for people to poke holes in you strat if they could so try not to sound like a dick when you response to something you ask for.
It's because some of the suggested counters to this strategy are utterly dumb. If you watch the replays you'll see that saccing Overlords is exactly what he wants you to do, because if you do that puts you behind big time, allowing him to stretch the field even more by harassing non stop with Helions/Vikings early.
People also make very funny assumptions that this is an all-in, when it is not. It is a strong pressure/harass build that can outright kill most Z players who do not multi task well, that punishes Z for early droning and not making defenses early. If you watch the replays he puts an expansion up at 7 and has it up and going around 10, and that is when his first big push hits. It is a build that if you can defend the harass well, you are on even footing at best because you have to build units to defend against this, and you have to build crawlers in the right positions. Making the mistake of waiting to the last second or making just one crawler in case of a 2 rax bunker push is stupid, and that is what cost most Z's games against this build.
Plus, the players he beats / plays against are legitimately good players.
...1 base? I expo at 7-8 minutes. I push at 10. I have 2 bases by the time I leave and do enough damage that I could transition to mass scvs and win most times.
By having the 2nd CC in base for the first 2-3 scvs, you have successfully over saturated your main, to transfer 10 or so, and pull 10 or so for the push. You can afford it because of mules and staying on 1-1-1 you can afford scvs/depots/marines/tanks/vikings/medic. All of em without issue.
Seriously, if you expo at 8 minutes, and take 10 SCVs with you to the push, unless it does a HUGE amount of damage, you are going to lose. Your build is basically a 1 base all-in, that gets an expo for no really good reason. You should either focus on getting the most possible units for damage from 1 base, in which case more marines for example, would be superior to more SCVs, OR instead, focus on getting an expansion up, and then once you get extra income, and thus extra production from the expo, push with that.
In your case, the expo serves no purpose. If you fail to do damage, since you sacrificed 3/4th of your SCVs, you are still dead, despite having an expo, because you are now way way behind in economy. If you do do damage, then great. But since you sacced 3/4th of your SCVs, you still have to do a ton of damage, so its basically an all-in. So if you didnt expand, you could probably have done even more damage instead.
Did you even watch the replays? He is killing tons of drones early, queens, and all other sorts of shit early. He is either ahead or even with the Zerg the entire game on worker production (most of the time ahead). He can afford to pull scvs to push because Mules can temporarily supplement his economy during this push, and it will force the Z to pull his drones to defend against this. If both trade armies the Terran is well ahead because of the massive amount of eco damage he did, because the Z literally has to throw EVERYTHING he has to defend against this push.
Who was being aggressive and angry? I was merely telling you that the theory craft sling run by won't happen. If they commit to sling/bling bust, I just make my wall thick, and dominate them with vikings.
I only build a bunker if they roach me. Otherwise, hellions keep slings at bay, as most zergs tend to avoid staying slings vs hellions, especially once the OLs start popping.
It's one thing to find a hole had you seen it in action. It's another to theorycraft things that just won't help or affect the game.
The timings is such that I marine/bunker/scv harass their FE if they do it, they repel me. By the time they get to my base, 2 hellions are already out. As I said, no slings speed is up yet if they hatch first, even if they don't I don't think sling speed is out. That point, my hellions reign supreme. It's not but 2-3 game minutes until 2 vikings are flying seperate into OLs. It supply blocks 7/10 zergs when you pop 1-2 OLs. That supply block, plus queen sniping to mess up an inject, or drone sniping to mess up minerals makes it so when you push you're up about 15 food, with a high high DPS ball with auto repair and a medic for marine/scvs.
I'd like to say that I've been using Jeffrey's build vs Zerg for quite some time now with amazing success. I was one of the ones to say, "You should make a TL thread about this!" Though the mainstreaming of X Build vs X Race (ie, iEchoic) may have a detrimental effect in how X Race deals with it, I feel it is always a good thing to increase one's tool belt.
Thanks for elaborating on the build and offering additional replays!
i was attempting this build when i saw you talk about it in some random thread a week ago, but failed miserably. to be fair, i was probably doing it horribly wrong. now that youve written a comprehensive guide, ill have to give it another try.
Well there are legitimate zerg strategies where at around 24 food a zerg can sacrifice and ovi, which for zerg is between 5-6min unless something drastic occurred, in which case it probable means you already won with the bunker rush.
On February 15 2011 03:10 P0ckets wrote: Well there are legitimate zerg strategies where at around 24 food a zerg can sacrifice and ovi, which for zerg is between 5-6min unless something drastic occurred, in which case it probable means you already won with the bunker rush.
It's more so just a feint. If I can get it up, I get it up and load 2-3 marines in it just to delay mining at their expo and force slings + spines.
The more overlords sacced, the better. I'm going to be going around killing them anyways, so if you sac it you'll see me FEing, get a sense of safety, and drone up. If zergs drone up, they lose. If they speed to mutas, they lose. If they try fast tier2 roach they lose. It's such a huge ball of units that preparation is kinda silly for it since it's much like a 2 rax -- I can scan, see I don't want to go, and sit at my expo and take an early third with 3 tanks and marine medic with vikings harassing until mutas pop.
Unfortunately, it's not too easy to pick up =/ It took me a LONG time since I saw a variation of it to make it work for me. You gotta be able to keep hellions alive, but still apply pressure. And at the same time be swapping tech paths, and constantly making marines and scvs and viking harassing.
It's dependant on harass. However, the vikings are hitting about the time zergs are VERY vunerable..right during lair tech.
On February 15 2011 03:29 SecretA5DC wrote: Now that there's a step by step guide, I'll have to go try it out on ladder. ^^
lol I've been telling you for a while dude! The allbusiness replay is me smurfing, just played it today. First game of the day vs 3k master zerg and he just left once I pushed after such a nice harass.
This build looks great and I can't wait to see some of the replays. I was looking for a great new TvZ build, I feel like it's my most uninspired matchup after not having played in months. Great job OP and I look forward to more discussion on strengths and weaknesses.
lol I'm actually quite surprised and flattered how well people take this build. Once people run it and learn the transition, it's SO versatile. It's a 1-1-1 FE! You can do anything, and it just happens that a push is the best option to set up a marine tank hellion medic army for a push at ~14 min if the initial push doesn't win.
What cracks me up is the 'its too all in' or people who obviously don't read or watch a game. Sure, it has many weaknesses, but I've faced fast roach, fast infestor, fast muta, sling/bling bust, sling/roach, roach/hydra, sling/bling/muta it just does so well vs everything at that stage in the game.
On February 15 2011 03:10 P0ckets wrote: Well there are legitimate zerg strategies where at around 24 food a zerg can sacrifice and ovi, which for zerg is between 5-6min unless something drastic occurred, in which case it probable means you already won with the bunker rush.
It's more so just a feint. If I can get it up, I get it up and load 2-3 marines in it just to delay mining at their expo and force slings + spines.
The more overlords sacced, the better. I'm going to be going around killing them anyways, so if you sac it you'll see me FEing, get a sense of safety, and drone up. If zergs drone up, they lose. If they speed to mutas, they lose. If they try fast tier2 roach they lose. It's such a huge ball of units that preparation is kinda silly for it since it's much like a 2 rax -- I can scan, see I don't want to go, and sit at my expo and take an early third with 3 tanks and marine medic with vikings harassing until mutas pop.
Unfortunately, it's not too easy to pick up =/ It took me a LONG time since I saw a variation of it to make it work for me. You gotta be able to keep hellions alive, but still apply pressure. And at the same time be swapping tech paths, and constantly making marines and scvs and viking harassing.
It's dependant on harass. However, the vikings are hitting about the time zergs are VERY vunerable..right during lair tech.
I do like your strong attempt to deny, which forces sacrificing overlords, and then you go on the offense against them. It is really annoying as a zerg to have Ovis die like that, but the first sacrificing overlord is usually prepared to be sacrificed by build 2 ovis before I sacrifice the 1. I usually play very scared against terran since they have the most diverse teching options so I typically always sac an ovi at 5:30-5:45 mark.
Also how do you transition in the late game? I could see a couple instances where if the zerg player more defensive he could use his queens, spine, and defenders advantage to stop the initial push. Do you then go back to standard MMM/Viking/tank/, mech based, or drop harass? Since you have been hunting ovis I would see drop harass and a natural extension of your strat since zerg will have limit view around the map.
Did you even watch the replays? He is killing tons of drones early, queens, and all other sorts of shit early. He is either ahead or even with the Zerg the entire game on worker production (most of the time ahead). He can afford to pull scvs to push because Mules can temporarily supplement his economy during this push, and it will force the Z to pull his drones to defend against this. If both trade armies the Terran is well ahead because of the massive amount of eco damage he did, because the Z literally has to throw EVERYTHING he has to defend against this push.
I did watch most of them. And yes, his harass is doing a good amount of damage, putting him ahead in most cases. Which is the reason why he can afford to make a CC and then all-in. Once you are ahead, even if your follow up is suboptimal, it doesnt really matter all that much, because you are already ahead.
But the fact still stands, that if he didnt build an OC, and 12 SCVs to pull, and instead made 2 extra rax, and 12 marines, his all-in would be even stronger than it is now. The OC is a waste of money there, if he made more army instead, then the push would be even stronger. And since he relies on that push to absolutely cripple the zerg, he might as well make the push as strong as possible.
Check out the second uploaded game there, "vs 2700 master Z on xelnaga (mess up forgetting siege and still walk)" He is attacking with what he produced from the 1-1-1 build, plus 8 SCVs that were produced from the OC. At this point (11:30), the only thing the OC has done to strengthen the push, is making 8 SCVs. The extra production from getting a second base, is not up yet. If that OC had been an extra rax or 2 instead, making for example marines, or marauders, then the investment would have been the exact same, and his push would have been at the exact same time, except it would have been much stronger. How come his push still does a lot of damage even though its not optimal you ask? Thats because when he pushes, he is at 88 food vs 43 food. So yeah, even though his push is less than optimal, he still does damage. But if his push had been a stronger 1-base all-in, instead of a weaker expansion push, then he could have won the game outright with that push, and a 45 food lead. If hed just expanded, gotten the extra production online from the expo, and then pushed, he would also have had an easier time winning. Before the push, he is at a 45 food lead, and right after, he is at a 35 food lead. That push is terrible, and the timing of that all-in push relative to what the terran is doing (getting an expo up but no benefit from it yet) is also terrible.
If you check the replays, his opening wins him the game. He gets a 25-45 food lead just from the opening harass in nearly all of those games. Which quite obviously is amazing. But also hides the fact that that push with SCVs doesnt really need all that many SCVs, and also isnt very strong at all.
The harassment opening gives him a gigantic lead. At that point, when he has 50-100% more food than his opponent, nearly anything he does is very likely to win him the game. He choses to all-in before his expo production arrives, with some SCVs, and thats not optimal. It works, because he has a huge lead already. If he decided to for example go for a 2 base battlecruiser all-in, that also wouldnt be optimal, but it would most likely still win, because he has double the food of his opponent.
Well, when I push, I siege up to hit have tanks hitting spines, and when queens come in, they get FF'ed down in case the push DOES fail, I'm set to make them miss inject cycles. And once you take out the 1-2 queens at the nat, you lift up vikings if any OLs are near to just put them further behind.
How I transition late game? After expo, I drop 2 rax 1 fac more. Reactor more, 2 tech lab rax for fast cs/stim and +1 attack. 2nd fac get a reactor and blue flame gets researched. Push again with marine tank hellion medic scv (for repair). Up until about my 3rd base, every attack I do, I pull scvs because being even on bases and having mules puts me ahead. It's that added stuff in the way and repair/AI targeting SCVs.
It transitions VERY well into marine tank medic hellion, a very strong army mid game. If they muta ball up, I get 1-2 thors MAX and push asap. Being even on bases, muta balls = no bling balls ya know?
Or, if they roach and repel me away (they lose a LOT btw), I go 2 rax mara 1 reactor rax marine, mara marine scv viking medic tank hellion pushes. Without mutas, the pushes get more and more deadly with the addition of more and more units and upgrades.
On February 15 2011 04:03 iAmJeffReY wrote: Well, when I push, I siege up to hit have tanks hitting spines, and when queens come in, they get FF'ed down in case the push DOES fail, I'm set to make them miss inject cycles. And once you take out the 1-2 queens at the nat, you lift up vikings if any OLs are near to just put them further behind.
How I transition late game? After expo, I drop 2 rax 1 fac more. Reactor more, 2 tech lab rax for fast cs/stim and +1 attack. 2nd fac get a reactor and blue flame gets researched. Push again with marine tank hellion medic scv (for repair). Up until about my 3rd base, every attack I do, I pull scvs because being even on bases and having mules puts me ahead. It's that added stuff in the way and repair/AI targeting SCVs.
It transitions VERY well into marine tank medic hellion, a very strong army mid game. If they muta ball up, I get 1-2 thors MAX and push asap. Being even on bases, muta balls = no bling balls ya know?
Or, if they roach and repel me away (they lose a LOT btw), I go 2 rax mara 1 reactor rax marine, mara marine scv viking medic tank hellion pushes. Without mutas, the pushes get more and more deadly with the addition of more and more units and upgrades.
Guy above me -- That's the whole key on the harassment. The ball of SCV is too much for them to deal with. Too big of a surface area without banes. With sling/roach/etc with half decent control and siege up, there's nothing they can do to 100% squash is without having late lair mass sling roach, or whatever. The point of the harass is that by supply blocking, sniping queens, and drones, that you mess up their macro / inject cycles so the push has such a high DPS and auto repair makes it so resilient.
What can zerg do vs hellion harass? Make spines. Block ramp with queens. They're wasting time and money on something meant to keep them busy. If they don't react, the hellions eat up drones and slings.
I mean, beyond the two times I got bane busted in that ball without microing at all, I'm doing stellar damage after most times a sub par harass. It's not at all an all in. Just by pulling scvs doesn't make it an all in. That's the magic of the OC/mule. It means my 75% mech army now has 'medics' to heal them. It now means I have more surface area, and a bigger ball to deal with. Roach/sling/queens have too much to get through to get to the tanks or the marines thru the hellion/scv wall.
If I was to all in, which I do sometimes, I land the fac with a reactor, stay massing hellions, and marines, and vikings and push sans siege tanks with hellion viking marine 75% of SCVs. Again, blind banes is the only way to stop that, the DPS is too high. That or just poor control losing hellions ahead of army, not getting side shots etc.
It's a 1-1-1 FE! You can do anything, and it just happens that a push is the best option to set up a marine tank hellion medic army for a push at ~14 min if the initial push doesn't win.
If you instead went for a true 1 base all-in, it would be a lot stronger. I wouldnt recommend it though. Your 1-1-1 harass into expo is obviously strong, and gets you a huge lead. Instead of potentially throwing that lead away, the safest option would be to just sit back on your expo and 30 food lead, while continuing to harass a bit, get your extra production up, and then push. That would be much much safer, and also a lot stronger.
It's a 1-1-1 FE! You can do anything, and it just happens that a push is the best option to set up a marine tank hellion medic army for a push at ~14 min if the initial push doesn't win.
If you instead went for a true 1 base all-in, it would be a lot stronger. I wouldnt recommend it though. Your 1-1-1 harass into expo is obviously strong, and gets you a huge lead. Instead of potentially throwing that lead away, the safest option would be to just sit back on your expo and 30 food lead, while continuing to harass a bit, get your extra production up, and then push. That would be much much safer, and also a lot stronger.
Well, to my defense, I didn't know until I got to his base that I forgot siege lol. That is true, sometimes pushing isn't the best option since the harass does so well. I have this problem in all my match ups. 1 - I'm an scv fighting champion. 2 - I'm way too aggressive. I try to force people to make mistakes and pick apart holes in their game play with safe, 1-1-1 expo like openings.
Nice strat. Thanks for posting it. Will be trying this out - been battling with TvZ lately.
Those early vikings remind me of the PvZ BW corsair harass And then using them on the ground is different - i but really cool to apply more pressure to the inevitable mutas that will pop around the push time if it is a bit delayed or drags on.
Here is a different comparison that might be easier to see: Imagine you make a rax, with a tech lab on it, start researching stim, and then push to arrive at his base when its half way done. It would be much stronger to either not get stim, and push with more stuff, or wait a little, and push to arrive there once stim is done. And again, ofc, if you are at a 30 food lead, you can probably afford to push and arrive at his base when stim is half done, and still do a ton of damage, but that doesnt make it optimal.
Did you even watch the replays? He is killing tons of drones early, queens, and all other sorts of shit early. He is either ahead or even with the Zerg the entire game on worker production (most of the time ahead). He can afford to pull scvs to push because Mules can temporarily supplement his economy during this push, and it will force the Z to pull his drones to defend against this. If both trade armies the Terran is well ahead because of the massive amount of eco damage he did, because the Z literally has to throw EVERYTHING he has to defend against this push.
I did watch most of them. And yes, his harass is doing a good amount of damage, putting him ahead in most cases. Which is the reason why he can afford to make a CC and then all-in. Once you are ahead, even if your follow up is suboptimal, it doesnt really matter all that much, because you are already ahead.
But the fact still stands, that if he didnt build an OC, and 12 SCVs to pull, and instead made 2 extra rax, and 12 marines, his all-in would be even stronger than it is now. The OC is a waste of money there, if he made more army instead, then the push would be even stronger. And since he relies on that push to absolutely cripple the zerg, he might as well make the push as strong as possible.
Check out the second uploaded game there, "vs 2700 master Z on xelnaga (mess up forgetting siege and still walk)" He is attacking with what he produced from the 1-1-1 build, plus 8 SCVs that were produced from the OC. At this point (11:30), the only thing the OC has done to strengthen the push, is making 8 SCVs. The extra production from getting a second base, is not up yet. If that OC had been an extra rax or 2 instead, making for example marines, or marauders, then the investment would have been the exact same, and his push would have been at the exact same time, except it would have been much stronger. How come his push still does a lot of damage even though its not optimal you ask? Thats because when he pushes, he is at 88 food vs 43 food. So yeah, even though his push is less than optimal, he still does damage. But if his push had been a stronger 1-base all-in, instead of a weaker expansion push, then he could have won the game outright with that push, and a 45 food lead. If hed just expanded, gotten the extra production online from the expo, and then pushed, he would also have had an easier time winning. Before the push, he is at a 45 food lead, and right after, he is at a 35 food lead. That push is terrible, and the timing of that all-in push relative to what the terran is doing (getting an expo up but no benefit from it yet) is also terrible.
If you check the replays, his opening wins him the game. He gets a 25-45 food lead just from the opening harass in nearly all of those games. Which quite obviously is amazing. But also hides the fact that that push with SCVs doesnt really need all that many SCVs, and also isnt very strong at all.
The harassment opening gives him a gigantic lead. At that point, when he has 50-100% more food than his opponent, nearly anything he does is very likely to win him the game. He choses to all-in before his expo production arrives, with some SCVs, and thats not optimal. It works, because he has a huge lead already. If he decided to for example go for a 2 base battlecruiser all-in, that also wouldnt be optimal, but it would most likely still win, because he has double the food of his opponent.
Man you really don't even understand the principal of putting that 2nd OC down.
Because he put that 2nd OC down, even if the Z somehow manages to defend it, the Z would have had to sac his queens, drones, and his entire army to stop this push. This means that the Z in the event that he does manage to stop this push, is extremely far behind because the Terran is now sitting on double OCs and the Z lost Queens/Drones and will be WAY behind on economy.
In low worker count, the double OC allows the Terran to get his economy going faster, putting him at a significant lead ahead.
If you forgo the OC and make extra Marines, the Z can shut down your push and win or play really defensive since you are only on 1 base. Putting the 2nd OC down allows you to continue the game and not put you in a do or die situation. What it does is that it allows you either a push that will outright kill the Z, or you will trade favorably with the Z since he will have to use drones and queens to defend against this kind of a push.
On February 15 2011 04:22 morimacil wrote: Here is a different comparison that might be easier to see: Imagine you make a rax, with a tech lab on it, start researching stim, and then push to arrive at his base when its half way done. It would be much stronger to either not get stim, and push with more stuff, or wait a little, and push to arrive there once stim is done. And again, ofc, if you are at a 30 food lead, you can probably afford to push and arrive at his base when stim is half done, and still do a ton of damage, but that doesnt make it optimal.
Oh I fully understand your point. There's a reason I push when I push though. I have constant sight of their nat/main usually. It's not a random push, it's a timing push. It's timed before mutas, before bling speed, before roach speed, before infestors. It's timed to hit when, in my mind, zergs are weakest. Right at lair tech finishing they're rushing to get upgrades and mutas out.
Personal experience and timing is why I go when I go. Harassing like that, and then sitting back to expo and macro up is never safe to me in TvZ. One badly microed battle and you're down, and they got the muta flock up.
The push hits, as most zergs muta, when zergs are saving for the muta flock to pop. By sniping queens you delay that big ball by a bit by avoiding an injection cycle. This isn't like a just started using strategy. I've worked it out over 40-50 TvZ games just to get it to the point it's at now. The push is meant to make the larva be spent on something BUT mutas, which you will destroy. Personally, what zerg is going to muta with 4-5 vikings and marines on the field with NO scouting of my natural (hasn't happened yet with hellion map control)
So I fully understand your point I could make it more of an all in, but in the event of an army trade -- I'm ahead. 2 OC's, two bases, open 1-1-1 tech path, and I'll be damned if I didn't kill 1-2 more queens.
New to TL, and I've been having some problems with TvZ. I saw your build earlier in the T Siege Expand discussion and I've tried it a couple times and found it was pretty effective. Question for you: have you tried this on maps that are not as open as Scrap? What are some of the issues?
Spine crawler location, and hellions being non effective. It works on maps like blistering (at times because of viking) definitly on xelnaga, good on metalopolis, SOLID on delta. Any map but like jungle.
Never tried on steppes, so I can't say. It could go both ways due to rush distance, the push would hit THAT much faster.
If it's a map hellions aren't good on, I reactor rax, and churn marines. Fac makes it's own tech lab, and I do 3 hellions + blue flame -> reactor starport(swap with rax land it with reactor)
Push with blue flames involved. Usually I elevator the blueflames, and keep tanks/marine/viking outside as a show of force to let blue flames do some dirty work.
I think the main weakness of this build is that the hellions are not blue flamed. 4 regular hellions are not that scary and the push at 10 min can be taken care of with pure lings and banelings. As long as the zerg doesnt fall apart to the viking and hellion harrass.
On February 15 2011 04:58 tmzu wrote: I think the main weakness of this build is that the hellions are not blue flamed. 4 regular hellions are not that scary and the push at 10 min can be taken care of with pure lings and banelings. As long as the zerg doesnt fall apart to the viking and hellion harrass.
Very, very true. That's why I push when I do, before bling speed. Then it's just a matter of making those blings splatter (rhyming!) with seperate hotkey'ed tanks. Without stim, it get's hairy. But vikings eat zerglings up, especially with the scvs around. The thing is, how many zergs go bling baneling vs scouted reactor hellions? Either the roach up and delay lair, or spine up and get lair up fast.
It's VERY rare to see banelings vs reactor hellion. Probably mistakes on my part pushing when I scout banelings with vikings too =/
I havnt gotten to watch your replays, but you keep saying blind ling bling is the only answer. Why? It sounds like to me you have a lot of good stuff to beat that already: armored vikings in front absorb bling damage, tanks can boom boom lingbling balls, hellion/marine behind Viking should throw down some nasty damage on them... Plus the aformentioned food advantage. In one of those replays do you lose the initial push to blingling?
Also, to everyone saying this is just a "bad all in"... I'm so confused, what are you thinking? He pushes at a time that he avoids Zerg's optimum tech/units, and that he's seriously set them back with harass, not because it's just an all in... If he just built up more off the expo and let the Zerg recover/get his tech up, he's lost the awesome momentum he gained.
The argument that "an all in with an extra oc is a bad all in" is retarded because a build with an early extra oc ISN'T AN ALL IN.
Why is it deemed an all in if he pulls 10 scv? (which by the way isn't a 3/4 of His scv like someone kept saying). He is well enough ahead that 10 scvs does not even put him close to crtitically behind. All in is when you lose a very high percentage of games if your cheesy timing push doesn't kill them outright... He can easily survive losing his entire push because he has the expo going already... Not even close to an all in.....
One thing that seems consistent, is that you always seem to get siege tech way before your push actually hits, and you expand when you push, not when you viking harass. It seems that if you moved out your orbital right at the time its finished, as you are harassing with your vikings, It would still be perfectly safe, but begin to pay off for itself much faster. Then, by for example delaying siege a little, so that it gets upgraded right as your push is about to hit the zerg, instead of 30 seconds to a minute before you actually go for your push, you could squeeze in an extra factory, and perhaps a rax or 2. And then push at around the same time you do now, but this time with an actual benefit from your second base, thus a much stronger push that doesnt need you to pull SCVs.
On February 15 2011 01:28 iAmJeffReY wrote: Around this time with 3-4 hellions on the field at towers, and vikings taking out OL scouting spots by your ledges/edges/sides, you have almost COMPLETE map control.
Reactor hellion openings do not give you automatic map control. The vikings are a nice touch, but since you build 4 of them you have to kill at least 8 overlords to make it worth your while.
Another thing, in most of your replays your opponent went muta, which is not the correct decision given 4 and possibly more vikings in the air.
On February 15 2011 01:28 iAmJeffReY wrote: Around this time with 3-4 hellions on the field at towers, and vikings taking out OL scouting spots by your ledges/edges/sides, you have almost COMPLETE map control.
Reactor hellion openings do not give you automatic map control. The vikings are a nice touch, but since you build 4 of them you have to kill at least 8 overlords to make it worth your while.
Another thing, in most of your replays your opponent went muta, which is not the correct decision given 4 and possibly more vikings in the air.
Exactly why I go for queens and drones, and then drop them to use in battle. The vikings more than make up for themselves in havoc they cause. I tend to think as also what is the zerg building to prevent a viking harass? Evo chamber sometimes, and spores. Another queen. A multitude of things NOT on their muta sling bling tech path.
very interesting build. i wonder though how it holds its ground against early roach pressure....
I haven't faced any full on 7 roach rushes, but on the maps I run it on, it usually doesn't do enough damage that I can't defend myself with a bunker. I keep tabs on scouting for as long as I can. You can gauge by the first two hellions by how many drones are out, slings speed or not, how many slings, etc to get a SEMI decent idea when/if roaches are coming. Like a lot of zerg 1 base roach rush on LT, and that's not a map I run this on at all. Maybe blue flame -> viking -> blue flame drops but never hellions on LT because of easy spines, and short rush distances sometimes.
But usually, by the the time I have 2 hellions out, I'll see no expo if roaches are on the way to bunker up and prepare to repair (haha rhyming again)
Personally, I feel against this push unless they stay tier1 roach sling, and pull drones + queens roaches are not the answer at all to this. Tanks with siege, the marine dps with viking and hellions, all 4 outrange so if you attack stop attack stop spam scvs you can fuck up zerg focus fire sometimes (I'm pretty sure you're way better than me, but just a point) Attack with scvs, then keep spamming stop until they reposition roaches and focus fire, then attack again.
The reason I feel roaches don't do the job is because they take what? 2 supply. Need to be popped on injection cycles to count this size of a push. Very expensive unit, so if they FE, they won't have more than 2 queens (usually) to defend 2-4 vikings up and down on the field. I can pick more overlords off because of less money to go around because of roaches.
Now again, I've never done this against a 5/7RR. FE roaches, yes. And I seem to just roll over it. Fast infestors, and just had to delay the push for another 2 tanks.
One thing that seems consistent, is that you always seem to get siege tech way before your push actually hits, and you expand when you push, not when you viking harass. It seems that if you moved out your orbital right at the time its finished, as you are harassing with your vikings, It would still be perfectly safe, but begin to pay off for itself much faster. Then, by for example delaying siege a little, so that it gets upgraded right as your push is about to hit the zerg, instead of 30 seconds to a minute before you actually go for your push, you could squeeze in an extra factory, and perhaps a rax or 2. And then push at around the same time you do now, but this time with an actual benefit from your second base, thus a much stronger push that doesnt need you to pull SCVs.
I was NEVER a hellion user in all my sc2. I'm just getting comfortable microing them against slings, so I felt safer dropping the expo later. The better my timings and control get the earlier I'm expoing, and now going 5 viking 1 medic 3 tanks 4 hellions 14-15 marines and 12 scvs because I have a couple more units at a slightly later time but I just hit harder at about 10 minutes, where I then drop two more barracks as I push out. I feel a momentum going in this strategy personally. From the hellion pokes to the viking pokes I always feel safe and never like in trouble. The push comes and I get to their base 9/10 unseen because of the constant harassing + sending hellions before rest of units to clear towers.
Anyone better than I, give reactor viking opening a try. Don't use this build if you don't want, it's just a very quick transition. Try it on some zerg friends. It infuriates them to be supply capped, and stripped of mutas and to get a ball that size.
I've been pondering on getting blue flame instead of siege and going with 2-3 unsiege tanks, but when port is done I make a medic to drop 2 hellions 4 marines, then swap reactor with the factory to get blue flame, because then I can get 2 vikings to go OL hunt / drop and snipe a queen as I drop harass another area. Also, by delaying the swap you get 2 more hellions so 4-6 going around hitting in and out depending on losses.
It's a very psychologically strong feeling strategy to me. I get frustrated hearing YOU'RE UNDER ATTACK! Seeing that red supply number. Not having overlords all over the map to know where I am and when I went. Not having safe feeling to macro up drones hard. Constantly having to defend etc
The reasoning behind the early Vikings is not only to kill Overlords. If the only use of Viking was to kill its cost in Overlords, then perhaps your statement would be correct. However, the Vikings serve an additional use during the 10:00 push, when all Vikings join together with the primary army and land. Their ground DPS is incredibly strong and continues to pay back their cost in damage dealt to Zerg's army and economy. As someone else mentioned, Four Vikings one-shot drones, which means that you can use them pre-battle to destroy lone queens and then harass undefended mineral lines. Then when defense comes, you can lift off and resume Overlord hunting.
On February 15 2011 01:28 iAmJeffReY wrote: Around this time with 3-4 hellions on the field at towers, and vikings taking out OL scouting spots by your ledges/edges/sides, you have almost COMPLETE map control.
Reactor hellion openings do not give you automatic map control. The vikings are a nice touch, but since you build 4 of them you have to kill at least 8 overlords to make it worth your while.
Another thing, in most of your replays your opponent went muta, which is not the correct decision given 4 and possibly more vikings in the air.
The reasoning behind the early Vikings is not only to kill Overlords. If the only use of Viking was to kill its cost in Overlords, then perhaps your statement would be correct. However, the Vikings serve an additional use during the 10:00 push, when all Vikings join together with the primary army and land. Their ground DPS is incredibly strong and continues to pay back their cost in damage dealt to Zerg's army and economy. As someone else mentioned, Four Vikings one-shot drones, which means that you can use them pre-battle to destroy lone queens and then harass undefended mineral lines. Then when defense comes, you can lift off and resume Overlord hunting.
On February 15 2011 04:58 tmzu wrote: I think the main weakness of this build is that the hellions are not blue flamed. 4 regular hellions are not that scary and the push at 10 min can be taken care of with pure lings and banelings. As long as the zerg doesnt fall apart to the viking and hellion harrass.
My feeling has always been that dropship + hellions is just a really nice way of saying: "You are not allowed to drone up until you get enough defenses."
Couple newer reps of games I just played with a practice partner. He's 3k z. Worked in an earlier expo, and blue flames + siege both games with a delayed push and early drop with 2 vikings. 2 vikings, 8 marines, or 2 vikings 2 hellions 4 marines.
My macro is still crap, but this game I mix in a double factory and still harass a bit. Harassing good zergs is a LOT harder.
Both games are 2 or so minutes delayed of a push but still hitting right as mutas pop and the 5 viking marine combo forces engagements and keeps from sniping.
this strat i scomplete shit. Jeff, I am a 3400 master terran, and I will tell you, this doesnt work. YOu dont have the eco to support. and also, what is the fucking point of a CC if u dont expand. I dont understand how you got to masters with this build, but I swear, I bet as zerg, (my worst race), i could crush you. U have no girlfriend, no life, and no fucking sc2 skill. FUCK U
On February 15 2011 10:54 Deemon wrote: this strat i scomplete shit. Jeff, I am a 3400 master terran, and I will tell you, this doesnt work. YOu dont have the eco to support. and also, what is the fucking point of a CC if u dont expand. I dont understand how you got to masters with this build, but I swear, I bet as zerg, (my worst race), i could crush you. U have no girlfriend, no life, and no fucking sc2 skill. FUCK U
lol okay. Well since it's been and still is working with little tweaks here and there, I'm going to say you're wrong. On all accounts that is!
I'd love to see your 3400 master account. I'm not sure 12 year olds can get that many points. Good post though, I enjoy and understand your points.
its a good build, i was using it. But i have some problems =/!!!! if i dont do much damage using the hellions, killing OL, its pretty bad idea go and try to kill him e.e
-Another thing is.. the only hardcounter for this, its baneling bust, whit a lot of zerlings, rigth?? Well some zerg just won me whit that... u.u cuz baneling>marine, and theng speedling>tank, or maybe its just my bad micro...
Nice build! Im a platinoob so if you dont mind answering a few questions:
1) You sometimes build the CC very early (at the time you build the factory) and sometimes you make it much later. Is that decision affected by something you scout or were you just "winging" it? Also, which option would be considered more "standard" ?
2) Would skipping the bunker rush completely have a big impact on how this strat rolls out?
3) How do you play against zergs who go FE->banelings?
-Another thing is.. the only hardcounter for this, its baneling bust, whit a lot of zerlings, rigth?? Well some zerg just won me whit that... u.u cuz baneling>marine, and theng speedling>tank, or maybe its just my bad micro...
No, with hellions you should see that coming a mile away, and in that case you triple thick your wall with barracks factory and starport. I'd then get out blue flame hellions personally, and just run amuck with blue flames as banes won't have speed. The reason I say banelings counter it is you're in a ball most of the time with this push, and banelings obviously rape balls of units. Micro it out a bit and you'll still having your vikings, medic, tanks, and a slew of marines left to combat the zerg.
Nice build! Im a platinoob so if you dont mind answering a few questions:
1) You sometimes build the CC very early (at the time you build the factory) and sometimes you make it much later. Is that decision affected by something you scout or were you just "winging" it? Also, which option would be considered more "standard" ?
2) Would skipping the bunker rush completely have a big impact on how this strat rolls out?
3) How do you play against zergs who go FE->banelings?
1- Any late CC was my old rendition. I'm still working it out myself. The two games against synthetiq are how I'm running it now, against more zergs on different maps. It's still based on a hellion harass, but before I swap for vikings I make 1 medic, then 2 vikings to go OL harass their ring, to make my drop unseen. Land 2 vikings, and hit with 2 vikings on the ground and marine hellion medic combo drop. My standard, to make it not at all an all in, is the 22 CC in base when reactors are building/fac building.
2- I bunker rush only when I get a chance. I always try, because not every zerg moves overlords around to spot well. Even at mid master level they still don't. Or if I see a late 15 hatch, and even later 16 pool, I'll have one scv make two bunkers to block the ramp and 3 marine rush to force all kinds of slings/drones/spines. And yes, it would just mean an earlier factory, earlier 2 hellions etc. I like to make zergs pull drones for no reason.
Check the games vs synthetiq. I end up with my SCVs because he has to cut drones to get slings out faster.
3- If they FE-> banelings, I triple thick wall and go blue flames + mass vikings. Banelings = late lair. Banelings = no bane speed. Blue flames > banes (with micro) and slings no contest. Vikings then rule the air and stop ALL OLs from being alive. With 6+ vikings, you can land and murder his queens and entire drone line without losing a thing.
tier 1 bane busts seem very all in, and easily stopped by making your wall be able to be blocked in by 3 buildings. You'll see on each map I build a specific way so that incase of banelings, I can leave CC in base, and thicken up my wall.
its a good build, i was using it. But i have some problems =/!!!! if i dont do much damage using the hellions, killing OL, its pretty bad idea go and try to kill him e.e
True, and untrue. It depends on how the zerg reacts. Does he just drone up and take a third after double failed harass? If so, press his balls off and win after failing two harasses and enjoy the easy win. If he amasses an army, then you're in for it. If so, viking harass for a LONG time. Keep them making queens, spores, OLs, anything but units.
Glad to see you are continuing to improve it. Your push timing is great from the point of view of when it hist the zerg, so I hope you find a way to make it work in a way that isnt tottaly awkward when based on what your build is doing
It's, to me, just a more effective '2 rax' kind of 1-1-1 open with an FE. You start it earlier than the 2 rax. Apply the same, if not more pressure. And the push is just epic with having all bases ready to be checked by anything zerg can throw at you. With viking harass, you can see what's on the field-ish, and decide to not push and just take and early third and win it 3 base vs 3 base. It's very adjustable to the situation personally.
I used to do a 1-1 fe into 3-1-1 marine tank pushes. It's not that it's bad, I beat a few decent zergs with it, it's just I way prefer the constant harass into that big ball push.
With delaying the push, there's about no way to stop mutas from popping. However, with 5-7 mutas, what's he going to harass and hurt that he won't die even faster to the push. The vikings in the air force mutas to take bait and not run around sniping tanks + give you vision like in TvT.
I'm loving the transition into a 2-2-1 push after the initial push with blue flames, siege tanks, vikings, and marines. It's so dirty. Because, I'll admit, I'm like 3-2 vs synthetiq. When I don't run this build, he's WAY better than me, 100% better IMO. It's just the vikings so fuck up zergs mentally. The up and down harass is just so fun and easy to do.
Not to mention my paltry 100 apm is now about 130 when I TvZ using this build. It's making me a better player and really understand timings and placement.
Im a Z player, and I hate it. It's TOO DAMN SOLID. Stop making TvZ so easy for all the T players out there, I'm already getting whomped in this matchup!
On February 16 2011 07:00 TheCookieMonster wrote: Im a Z player, and I hate it. It's TOO DAMN SOLID. Stop making TvZ so easy for all the T players out there, I'm already getting whomped in this matchup!
<3 thank you for admitting it. I'm trying to get some of my zerg friends to try and back me up here, the viking harass is just annoying as hell and very, very powerful. I hear all kinds of reasons why vikings won't work. 'queens' 'mineral heavy' 'too much gas that fast'
Nice build I use a similar 4 hellion/4 viking expo opening that transitions into tank/marine/medivac. Its quite potent if you use drops to your advantage.
On February 16 2011 07:00 TheCookieMonster wrote: Im a Z player, and I hate it. It's TOO DAMN SOLID. Stop making TvZ so easy for all the T players out there, I'm already getting whomped in this matchup!
<3 thank you for admitting it. I'm trying to get some of my zerg friends to try and back me up here, the viking harass is just annoying as hell and very, very powerful. I hear all kinds of reasons why vikings won't work. 'queens' 'mineral heavy' 'too much gas that fast'
Apparently not.
The food difference you gain from that viking timing is just ridiculous. 20 food+ in most cases...
Also 4 vikings seems to be the sweet spot for everything. 2 hits for ovie and 1 hit for drone and 4 hits for a queen. Kinda silly when you think about it :D
On February 16 2011 07:00 TheCookieMonster wrote: Im a Z player, and I hate it. It's TOO DAMN SOLID. Stop making TvZ so easy for all the T players out there, I'm already getting whomped in this matchup!
<3 thank you for admitting it. I'm trying to get some of my zerg friends to try and back me up here, the viking harass is just annoying as hell and very, very powerful. I hear all kinds of reasons why vikings won't work. 'queens' 'mineral heavy' 'too much gas that fast'
Apparently not.
The food difference you gain from that viking timing is just ridiculous. 20 food+ in most cases...
Also 4 vikings seems to be the sweet spot for everything. 2 hits for ovie and 1 hit for drone and 4 hits for a queen. Kinda silly when you think about it :D
Silly, or for once can I get some half decent credit for a bit of an abusive unit use? lol Those 4 vikings are just dirty!
I've watched pretty much all of your replays and this is definitely something I'm going to try against my Zerg opponents, being that, at the moment, I'm really struggling in this match up, particularly.
I'm only Silver, so this will take some practice, but thanks, and either way, I'll be back with problems, replays, and gratitude.
I think I can make this much stronger. I'll post a replay of my version of the build later or actually probably just email it to you if you want (Jeff).
Yeah, I'm with you Munky. I really like the idea of the early harass though. I love the OL hunting. I do it in my games but with just one viking. I can see real potential for blue flames and thors as well as all kinds of other transitions. Great early harass and dropping the vikings for some nice ground damage is great too. I saw a version of this a long time ago by some pro on scrap station and it was the first time that I had seen medivacs transporting vikings.
Its been a lot of replays I've seen from some high level TL posters with Jeff always being the guy they always beat up and post with, and I got to say I've always rooted for him! I'm excited with where this strategy is going as I have been playing with reactor hellion openings at a mid diamond level. Watching the replays now!
...1 base? I expo at 7-8 minutes. I push at 10. I have 2 bases by the time I leave and do enough damage that I could transition to mass scvs and win most times.
By having the 2nd CC in base for the first 2-3 scvs, you have successfully over saturated your main, to transfer 10 or so, and pull 10 or so for the push. You can afford it because of mules and staying on 1-1-1 you can afford scvs/depots/marines/tanks/vikings/medic. All of em without issue.
Seriously, if you expo at 8 minutes, and take 10 SCVs with you to the push, unless it does a HUGE amount of damage, you are going to lose. Your build is basically a 1 base all-in, that gets an expo for no really good reason. You should either focus on getting the most possible units for damage from 1 base, in which case more marines for example, would be superior to more SCVs, OR instead, focus on getting an expansion up, and then once you get extra income, and thus extra production from the expo, push with that.
In your case, the expo serves no purpose. If you fail to do damage, since you sacrificed 3/4th of your SCVs, you are still dead, despite having an expo, because you are now way way behind in economy. If you do do damage, then great. But since you sacced 3/4th of your SCVs, you still have to do a ton of damage, so its basically an all-in. So if you didnt expand, you could probably have done even more damage instead.
I don't know if anyone else posted this, but the only time 10 scvs is 3/4ths of my scvs is when i have 14, and when I have 14 scvs my barracks isnt even finished, so... ya I'm lost.
Also, just to emphasize the point I'm trying to make (which is that 10 scvs is not all in...), if I expand at 7 minutes, by the 10minute mark I'm gonna have what, 40 scvs? so pulling 10 of them while yes it will hurt my economy, it will hurt his too, because any time you push a zerg in TvZ, the pressure forces the zerg to turn more larva in to units OTHER than drones (than they normally would have). Not to mention, the fact that he is applying pressure with vikings and hellions will ALSO force the zerg to make more lings / spines / whatever else, and NOT drones. Combine everything together, and I'd say that pulling 10 scvs on autorepair is worth it, it makes your army put that much more pressure on the zerg.
With that said, I like the build, I might try it, it's also good to see a build that has potential on scrapstation, dear god I hate TvZ on crapstation.
edit:. I don't mean for this post to seem aggressive toward morimacil. In fact, I think you may have misread the original post morimacil, because there is a part where jeff suggests that you CAN modify the build for an all in, if you want, in which case he suggested you pull 3/4 your SCVs. This is the only part of the post in which jeff suggests you pull 3/4 your SCVs, and he even kindly admits that it IS an all in.
this works pretty well, ive been experiementing with it actually since mid beta. unfortunately zergs are more than capable of dealing with this build cost effectively, however vs certain playstyles this can be absolutely devastating if Z is caught offguard.
On February 17 2011 12:29 Antisocialmunky wrote: I think I can make this much stronger. I'll post a replay of my version of the build later or actually probably just email it to you if you want (Jeff).
I do a drop + 2 vikings -> 4 viking harass and 2-2-1 2 base push 2 minutes later with blue flames, siege, 6+ vikings, marines, stim, 2-3 more medics, like 3-4 tanks and a slew of hellions and still pull scvs. After the drop and harass I hellion scoot around the map to roast some drones.
I hit about the first time you repel mutas. This has become my general TvZ strat, since 2-2-1 marine mara tank hellion viking just seems to be brutal and hard hitting.
I only use the rigid build I layed out on scrap and xel naga now, and metal if it's close spawn.
this works pretty well, ive been experiementing with it actually since mid beta. unfortunately zergs are more than capable of dealing with this build cost effectively, however vs certain playstyles this can be absolutely devastating if Z is caught offguard.
good if ur not playing in masters!
I said it before, and I'll say it again -- you're the one I got the idea of the build from. You did a triple reactor opening, and just laid to waste a zerg player. I enjoyed it and have been tinkering with it ever since.
On February 17 2011 12:29 Antisocialmunky wrote: I think I can make this much stronger. I'll post a replay of my version of the build later or actually probably just email it to you if you want (Jeff).
I do a drop + 2 vikings -> 4 viking harass and 2-2-1 2 base push 2 minutes later with blue flames, siege, 6+ vikings, marines, stim, 2-3 more medics, like 3-4 tanks and a slew of hellions and still pull scvs. After the drop and harass I hellion scoot around the map to roast some drones.
I hit about the first time you repel mutas. This has become my general TvZ strat, since 2-2-1 marine mara tank hellion viking just seems to be brutal and hard hitting.
I only use the rigid build I layed out on scrap and xel naga now, and metal if it's close spawn.
On February 17 2011 12:29 Antisocialmunky wrote: I think I can make this much stronger. I'll post a replay of my version of the build later or actually probably just email it to you if you want (Jeff).
I do a drop + 2 vikings -> 4 viking harass and 2-2-1 2 base push 2 minutes later with blue flames, siege, 6+ vikings, marines, stim, 2-3 more medics, like 3-4 tanks and a slew of hellions and still pull scvs. After the drop and harass I hellion scoot around the map to roast some drones.
I hit about the first time you repel mutas. This has become my general TvZ strat, since 2-2-1 marine mara tank hellion viking just seems to be brutal and hard hitting.
I only use the rigid build I layed out on scrap and xel naga now, and metal if it's close spawn.
This was in the GSL at one point on Scrap Station with 2 or 3 hellions and more vikings with a ton of marines, I'm glad someone found the same idea and is putting it to use since I have never seen anyone else use this sweet idea! There is also the possibility with this build that you could go for more vikings and get an early +1 armor (which allows vikings to counter mutas very well) and only reveal 4, and if he comes out with mutas you have 8-10 and can just go roll over his overlords :D
Hi, how to defend baneling bust with this BO? This build is amazing but im loosing so often to baneling bust, and i have no idea how to defend it. Im talking about situation when all my reactors are outside of my wall and my wall is pretty weak. What should i do? Thx for nice BO JeffReY!
I am still getting hang of all the micromanagement. In fact it's been quite some time since I've done this build I figured I'd try it out for the hell of it without practice. It feels quite natural.
Other than the 2 Vikings accidentally left behind during the final push, could you please critique this high diamond game? What are some things I did well, and what are some things that I could have done better?
EDIT: I've playfully titled this build as "ReactOr Not" as the Z usually reacts to this build in the WRONG way. In this game, that reaction was roaches.
On February 19 2011 02:46 DaNom wrote: Hi, how to defend baneling bust with this BO? This build is amazing but im loosing so often to baneling bust, and i have no idea how to defend it. Im talking about situation when all my reactors are outside of my wall and my wall is pretty weak. What should i do? Thx for nice BO JeffReY!
Is it 1 base or 2 base bbust?
If 1 base -- land port and fac and rax ALL at your wall, and if you must forgo a reactor on something, do so. Usually you should be able to stop 1 scv + 2 marines and make a rax to double rax + fac wall, and still reactor port viking.
Personally, if they 1 base bbust, I get blue flames and vikings. They have NOTHING to transition too. Even if they get in, the hellions will dominate the zerglings. Just kill every overlord, then drop and kill the queens and drones.
Abuse the fact they didn't FE, and just thicken up your wall and win easily.
If it's 2 base busting, hellion heavy, with tanks at your expo with bunkers until you push should suffice. Hotkey tanks separate to focus fire down banes (I still have trouble with it, so don't stress). The key to a sling/bling user, well facing one, with hellions is to shoot and scoot all over the map. No amount of slings will chase 4+ hellions, just due to the fact you can have 2 shoot, 2 scoot, 2 shoot 2 scoot and just force them into lines of lings and roast roast roast them.
If you see a zerg FE and go sling bling heavy, no roach or muta, I'd get blue flame, a second factory, and start getting marauders tanks hellions.
Rukkas -- will watch today/tonight and post/pm you
K ruk --- first off I suggest landing rax with reactor right away. Beyond the obvious no 3 depots at once!!! Gotta get one at like 20-21 when fac and rax are both getting built/reactored respectively. Then again at 30 or so between the two hellion sets.
After 4 hellions, swap port with factory. You need vikings more than hellions, although he did lose all his lings. If you saw roaches, hellions might end up sour for you. 4 hellions -> 4 vikings
If you want to FE, do it as the factory builds at 20 or so, then delay the port by JUST a bit, but have 2 OCs in base, and still able to 4 hellion -> 4 viking. Don't swap rax with port. You want rax churning out marines, that's your true DPS and money maker.
All overlords clumped at his main, with none on the rim!!! That's when you drop down in shadows, all 4 vikings, and go in and kill the queen -> lift and kill every OL. No way other queen can get there in time.
LOL nvm don't mind that -- you did it. Good job, that's where they rage. 1 more hit on that last OL!! Let that viking die for him being at 51/20 HAHAHA.
If you land expo, send scvs right away! You've had to had cut scvs. At that time, with an earlier CC you should be about 50 or so, to pull 10-12 scvs, not just 6.
And 200 total energy on CCs use that mules dude at the end
On February 19 2011 08:38 iAmJeffReY wrote: K ruk --- first off I suggest landing rax with reactor right away. Beyond the obvious no 3 depots at once!!! Gotta get one at like 20-21 when fac and rax are both getting built/reactored respectively. Then again at 30 or so between the two hellion sets.
After 4 hellions, swap port with factory. You need vikings more than hellions, although he did lose all his lings. If you saw roaches, hellions might end up sour for you. 4 hellions -> 4 vikings
If you want to FE, do it as the factory builds at 20 or so, then delay the port by JUST a bit, but have 2 OCs in base, and still able to 4 hellion -> 4 viking. Don't swap rax with port. You want rax churning out marines, that's your true DPS and money maker.
All overlords clumped at his main, with none on the rim!!! That's when you drop down in shadows, all 4 vikings, and go in and kill the queen -> lift and kill every OL. No way other queen can get there in time.
LOL nvm don't mind that -- you did it. Good job, that's where they rage. 1 more hit on that last OL!! Let that viking die for him being at 51/20 HAHAHA.
If you land expo, send scvs right away! You've had to had cut scvs. At that time, with an earlier CC you should be about 50 or so, to pull 10-12 scvs, not just 6.
And 200 total energy on CCs use that mules dude at the end
' Thanks for that sweet critique! You pointed out some things I didn't even notice, such as cutting at 4 hellion (enough for them to turn roach). It's amazing that I can make this push even beefier by adding more badass viking. I'm still becoming comfortable with this build, so the saturation of natural was difficult. And I didn't realize that Queens need a lot of hits to kill the Vikings, so I could have taken out so many more OL. I will watch some more of your replays to refine my timings, but doing the build "blind" without knowing the exact order of production I think I did a pretty good job.
I did a few games against my friend and on ladder. When I pushed at 10:00 I stomp Z every time, but any time I push later in favor of a larger army, it's about 50/50. That 10 minute timing is a necessity.
Very much so. It's before mutas are able to engage or harass, and when most zergs take a third. After a two prong harass, most assume it's over after making 4 queens and just drone up hard to get a muta ball out and an easy third.
If you reactor rax after landing from fac, and keep it making marines, you'll have a MUCH bigger push. And pull more scvs for auto repair.
It's really a 2 base timing attack, to be honest. A very solid army at a very solid time, with as much changing and variations as you want
Don't like this build at all. Lost three matches because of it that I should have won.
Putting money in vikings leaves you open to muta harass, and losing a few overseers isn't a big deal. And even if you can kill a few queens... just don't see the point.
Hellions can be ok but you're just going to lose map control after they get speedlings.
Both units require tons of micro to make effective, and leaves you open to tons of counters. You should be putting that time into upgrading your marines, getting tanks, and medivacs.
But the main problem is the push itself. A few banes, or roaches and all your tank support dies, vikings are too weak, and then you're screwed.
It's just too all'iny and too dependent on the zerg playing like crap. Maybe I just don't have the build down but I feel the uber ups is far superior and more secure.
Most of them are versus 2900-3k Masters, I'm definitely not flawlessing everyone using this build but I've been pretty much winging it with the exact BO and just generally following the Marine then 4 Hellions then 4 Viking into Siege Tanks formula. If I can work on my multitasking macro/micro, I think this could be one of my favorite T v Z builds.
Maybe Jeff can critique it later. I know I made quite a few mistakes but its a lot more fun supply-capping Zerg than trying the endless Siege Tank Marine slow push.
On February 22 2011 04:26 Bio0rMech wrote: Your playing 3000 zergs, id advise you not to do that at 3500 + :3
You don't at ALL have to stick to the build.
Against better zergs, I make 6 hellions, and a medic before I swap the port onto the factory, and 2 quick vikings, land expo, and drop 4 marines 2 hellions, snipe outlaying OLs, and drop my 2 vikings and little force to snipe queens and drones, and most times, MOST TIMES, I can get away with a dead queen, and 3-6 drones, easy, with minimal loses. After I drop the expo, I get another fac with reactor, and another rax with a tech lab for stim, reactor'ed hellions.
If they invest in heavy muta force, you just have to keep marines alive, which at ~13 minutes isn't impossible with 10+ hellions with BF, 2-4 medics, 20 or so marines 3-5 tanks, 4-6 vikings, and a slew of SCVs.
It's not game ending, but most times I secure a safe 3rd while denying and killing their third. From there, it's get 2-3 thors and just react well.
But the main problem is the push itself. A few banes, or roaches and all your tank support dies, vikings are too weak, and then you're screwed.
It's just too all'iny and too dependent on the zerg playing like crap. Maybe I just don't have the build down but I feel the uber ups is far superior and more secure.
It's not a 100% game winning strategy. If you don't hit at a certain time BEFORE mutas pop and bane speed hits, then yes you should lose. There's a reason I hit so early. And if they do indeed go roach heavy, I'd hope you could see that with the vikings and hellions and safely take your second and churn out more tanks?
On February 22 2011 12:03 Fedor wrote: Yeah found another way this build fails hard. 9 minute early mutas. hahaha.
...wow really? Serious question here -- are you trolling or what??
You're telling me a zerg getting 'fast' mutas out, which means an early lair, and fewer banelings so mainly zerglings will beat a reactor'ed barracks?
Vikings 1- should kill SO many overlords if he goes fast lair, because it means less ability to make more queens. 2 - should be able to harass on the ground rampantly.
Unless the zerg chokes up and makes 4-5 spine crawlers, there's not a chance fast mutas would handle the push, unless you botch up every harass and get nailed by a few banelings.
I'd love to see the replay, because I doubt you swap or land things anywhere near the correct time if, I'd say, 7 max mutas gives you trouble with 10-15 marines and 4+ vikings...?
Have you thought of getting a tech lab on your barracks and rocket paw instead of a reactor? You can build some marauders with conc for drops to make the sniping ganking much easier.
Basically just swap your ordering of your add-ons to R T R instead of R R T. Directly swap your factory to a tech lab instead of building it.
Gets you supply marginally faster, gives you more queen sniping ability, and faster blue flame and tanks.
I suppose if you were really creative, you could time your refineries to get you just enough gas to get stim. I've toyed with a 1 base timing push that grabs you blue flame and stim but I keep getting gas starved. Maybe someone else can figure it out?
It SEEMS that you could shut down the hellion harrass (no blue flame!) with speedlings, and that you'll lose 2~3 overlords to vikings but mutas will be up shortly after, and could easily catch all your vikings way out of position if you get greedy. I can't watch replays at the moment, but i'll get back to you on it.
I really like the build, allthough it is very difficult for me to execute everything properly (mid plat level). In the beginning i was just too slow with it, spent to long time harassing with vikings and that really hurt me. Now i make a quick pass with them try to get what i can and then go back to repair and attack.
I don't have much to add theory wise since i have still to properly execute this build even once, but my experience is that fast mutas are really one of the easiest things you can meet, at the time of the push they just have to little units too stop you.
I (Plat - Z) faced a bronze Terran yesterday in a custom game with this build. I was so suprised and catched totally offguard. Hellions without blueflame are easy defended with a spine and a queen. Hunting Vikings are not that much of a deal. But landing beyond the mineral line was pretty awesome. Never expected that. I won the match because of better macro, but with good macro and a bit of micro that build works pretty good against Zerg. At least till zergs know whats coming. ( And for now its 2 Rax or hellions...)