It is generally accepted among high level Starcraft 2 players that the best way to improve is to use the same build every game. The idea of this is the same as when people tell random players that they will improve most quickly by using the same race every game: “a jack of all trades is a master of none”. By narrowing down the possibilities of what can happen in a game, you reduce the amount of learning it takes to increase your skill level. In the time it takes you to answer the question “how should I play each of these 10 different builds against 2 rax expand?”, you could instead answer the question “how should I play my one build against 10 different builds that Terran can do?” When working on a single build at a time, you learn all the nuances of it. You know what to do vs standard play, cheesy play, etc. You know what your build is weak against, and figure out a way to scout it coming. You know exactly how to adjust your build in response to scouting, and thus eliminate its weaknesses. You have an idea of what to do at every stage of the game.
But most importantly, you will know the build so well that you don’t have to think about it when playing. And it is at this point when mechanics start to improve: as you no longer have to make decisions on the fly, your mind is free to think about making workers constantly, keeping your minerals low, avoiding supply blocks, and watching the minimap. This is how you increase your APM without spamming.
Unfortunately, the strategy forum in its current state is not conducive for this method of practicing. A quick search for [G] reveals that almost every Protoss build order guide is either outdated or gimmicky! In the Standard Play series, I am not attempting to create anything new or get something named after myself. My goal is to give players an up-to-date, comprehensive, and standard gameplan that can be done in every game against every opponent, with explanations of why it works well enough to be standard play. These are builds where you go in the game thinking “I can win if I execute well”, not “I can win if my opponent doesn’t scout this” or “I can win if my opponent has never seen this before”. You will not have to worry about whether you need to change your build completely when you lose, because there is no hard counter. Why EGiNcontroL’s build?
Picture, thousand words, etc... Are you convinced yet?
Incontrol is known to have one of the best PvZ on the planet, having beaten all of the top Zergs on the Korean ladder. In other words, you will never have to worry about reaching a level of play where this strategy no longer works.
Overview The plan is to open up with many sentries to secure an expansion, and then pressure by constantly poking around the map to discourage or punish mass drones. Upgrades are emphasized in order to make a strong push with colossi off three bases, at which point the sentries from earlier have accumulated enough energy to always have forcefields ready when you need them. This is very much a death-ball focused strategy.
The Opening There is no need to be especially rigid in things like 14 assimilator vs 15 assimilator, etc. We are assuming normal play here, so you have to abandon the build when scouting things like 6 pool or roach/speedling off 1 base. Assume constant probe production and chrono boost mostly on probes:
9 Pylon
Send the pylon probe to scout
13 Gateway
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
@100% Gateway Cybernetics Core
@100 minerals Zealot
@75 minerals Assimilator
@100% Cybernetics Core Sentry, Warpgate
22 Pylon
Sentry and 2 gateways when you have minerals
@100% gateways produce 2 or 3 sentries depending on resources/supply
With the scouting probe, you want to first see if they are 14 hatching, scout for any 1 base all-in, and then focus on blocking the expansion hatchery. Use your judgment to decide whether or not to build the 16 pylon to block vs 14 pool 16 hatch, or the 22 pylon to block vs speedling openings. The cannon next to the expo nexus to serve multiple purposes: detection vs burrowed roaches, defense vs roach/speedling aggression, and guarding your mineral line in case of speedling harass. The last part is what allows you to begin pressuring.
After expanding:
Note the sentry count: your army as your expansion finishes should look something like a zealot and 8 sentries. This unit composition is the most late-game oriented way of defending your expansion from speedlings, as you build up a ton of forcefields for your future army.
3/14/2011 update: After placing the 4th gateway, put your probe a bit in front of your expo. Bring it back to your expo to place a cannon when your forge finishes, but then send it in front again. There are certain mass speedling or roach/speedling timing attacks that hit before you have any stalkers, which your probe should see. Seeing it coming before it gets to your expo gives you time to react and place the perfect force fields that you need to survive this.
If your gas is stolen, you can either switch to a 4 gate or get a few more zealots early on and take a faster 4th gas in the midgame. Shark Mode
Once you have a few stalkers and your cannon is done, it’s time to start moving around. You want to clear out scouting lings and overlords, trying to darken the Zerg’s vision of the map. Every time you warp in another round of units though, your army should return to your base, add those to your army, and then move out again. The overall effect of this army movement is to create an atmosphere of uncertainty for the Zerg; when you challenge them for map control, they need to build units instead of drones in case they get attacked. This form of pressure is called “Shark Mode” because your army is like a shark: if you stop moving, you die. If you do not do this, the Zerg player will be free to drone and crush you with his macro. While sharking, make sure your army is always hugging a wall in case of a surprise ambush.
4/16/11 update: Always bring a probe and make a proxy pylon while sharking around. If you don't bring one, the Zerg player feels much less pressure and will make a higher drone to unit ratio.
During this time, you should also be trying to figure out which midgame tech your opponent will focus on: muta, roach, or banelings? A general rule is that if you see many speedlings, expect muta or banelings, and expect roach otherwise. In any situation other than close ground positions, many spine crawlers also indicates muta. On close positions, they indicate a “giraffe migration” push.
Muta midgame: if you’re getting harassed by a ton of speedlings, you can guess muta and go for a 6 gate push. If you guessed wrong, you can go back to playing vs roaches since the speedlings slow him down as much as 6 gates slow you down. If you didn’t figure out that he went for muta until you made a robo already, then you can use observers to help defend vs harassment while teching to blink. Incontrol likes to get DT’s to harass and divert gas away from mutas, and then make use of the tech later when doing a huge push with blink stalkers, sentries, zealots, and archons. There are no strict timings other than starting the twilight council when you know they went muta (assuming you missed the timing to skip the robo and go 6 gate) and trying to push before the Zerg player can fully switch to roaches. My variation – I like to research hallucination in the early game just so that I can always scout the Zerg’s tech before I build the robo. Once I see the spire or baneling nest, I make 2 more gateways for a total of 6, cut probes on 38 and stop mining from my 3rd assimilator. For the cost of hallucination research, you will always have the option to 6 gate against muta or baneling builds.
Zergling/baneling midgame: you need to turtle very hard while following the same general road map as outlined below in Roach midgame. Against this style of play you will never be able to leave your base until maxed, so just keep expanding defensively until you have the perfect death ball with colossus, archons, and blink stalkers. As long as you place any extra gateways in sim city setups somewhere, you should be pretty much immune to ground-based counter attacks so all you need to do is react to drops properly.
Roach midgame: this is the standard Zerg midgame play, so it will be the focus for the rest of this guide. The timings are mapped out well enough that we can return to the build order format. Starting from the beginning of shark mode, now assuming both constant probes and pylons:
Robotics Facility after a few stalkers
Assimilator (4th) while Robotics Facility is building
@100% +1 Weapons +1 Armor
@100% Robotics Facility Observer, Robotics Bay
@100% Observer Immortal
(Optional) @100% Immortal 2nd Immortal
@100% Robotics Bay Colossus (constant production from now on, always chrono boost), Extended Thermal Lance
1 Colossus Nexus (make sure to place pylons and cannons for defense)
5th and 6th Assimilators while Nexus is building
When gas permits it, Twilight Council
@100% Twilight Council Blink or +2 Weapons, get the other one when gas permits
@100% Nexus 4 Gateways and get ready to push
While all of this is happening, shark mode continues. Your army never stops moving and growing in size, except if the Zerg has a huge army moving around. In that case it’s okay to stay home and turtle behind forcefields since you know he’s not pulling ahead in drones. You warp in constant stalkers for the most part but at some point you will run low on gas so you will spend some time warping in zealots instead. Gas expenses need to be balanced around constant chrono-boosted colossus production.
Once you have 3-4 colossi, it’s time to begin pushing. This is around the time when the income from your third base kicks in.
Note – in the pre-colossus period, you need to avoid the “cut his army in half, kill the closer half” strategy that you might use against Terran. Because sentries are so easily sniped, it’s better to place forcefields so that you are never fighting more than a quarter of the roach ball, as any more than that can quickly focus down your sentries if the Zerg player is paying attention. The strategy can easily fall apart if you have to rebuild more than a couple of sentries, so the main focus should be keeping the most sentries alive rather than killing the most roaches. The Colossus Push
With 3 bases, you have to infrastructure necessary to sustain a colossus push into Zerg territory. Your army becomes strong enough to take on the roach/hydra/corruptor force directly, so begin moving toward the nearest Zerg base. Set up proxy pylons at strategic positions so that you can always retreat behind forcefields and warp in another round of units. Blink and +2 weapons will finish shortly to further strengthen your forces.
To engage the Zerg army: 1. Make 1 or 2 guardian shields just before the battle starts. 2. Wall off the ground units with forcefields. 3. If you’re still in range of too many ground units, take a step back and continue to attack. 4. If corruptors are coming from a different angle from the ground army, pick them off with blink. 5. As soon as the Zerg begins to retreat, blink forward and try to pick off more corruptors.
iNc likes to add a Dark Shrine as soon as gas permits it, and then send DTs to multiple different expos at once to kill drones, or all to the same expo to kill a hatchery. You’re also looking to secure a 4th base with cannons, at which point you have resources to splurge: 2nd Robotics Facility for more colossi, 2nd forge for faster 3/3 upgrades, archons for hive-proofing, Charge to sustain a push when gas is low, more warpgates… whatever you want. If you can spare the resources, the logical next step when you have archons is to get a mothership and attempt to pull off an archon toilet. Note: making DTs is a stylistic decision iNc uses to tax the Zerg’s multitasking abilities. Making void rays is just as good for hive-proofing (and possibly imbalanced if you listen to Idra and Artosis), unless the Zerg player is going overkill on corruptors. I prefer DTs myself as they are cheaper and make it that much harder for Zerg to harass with drops or nydus.
Once you reach the point of 4-5 bases, your army is practically invincible so keep pushing and win the game!
Replays I couldn’t find any replays of iNcontroL so here’s some of myself. Vs roach:
Yeah, I don't like this Voidray/Colossus stuff, I mean I don't try go for it straight from the begeining. That and 80% of the time I get roach/ling all-in'd and lose T_T. It is pretty damn strong though, but I have been playing Standard myself Stalker/Colossus/DT/Immo/Templar. Though I do build 3 Stargates late game if things go wrong to pump out Voidrays
I'd like to point out some of the videos here are pre patched, so you'll see some differences (for exemple, Flux Vane disappeared). It's nothing much, if not a problem at all !
I still like your guide very, very much, and it will help a lot of players.
This is exactly the type of thing I have been wanting to find to improve. I want to have 1 build to use against each race, and use it every game. The problem is I haven't been able to successfully search for builds that I'm looking for on this forum or anywhere else. I have watched a few of iNcontroL's coaching vids that were posted and I was highly considering using his builds as they seemed to be what I was looking for, which is a build I can use for every game and adapt it ingame to what my opponent is doing.
I'm going to be following this guide, and I hope you will be making one for PvT and PvP as well. Thank you for putting this together.
This is a great idea. Lower level players tend to always look for more gimmicky strategies or try to change their build and strategy too often depending on the map, the spawn positions, their mood, the current moon cycle, ect.
I have said this before but I believe it to be so true that I will repeat it again and again and again. The best way to improve is to use ONE build per matchup. Learn that one build until you can do it in your sleep. Play custom games vs AI, then play custom games against practice partners. Have your partners throw every single build known to mankind at you. Once you have that build down, go and learn the build of another matchup. Rinse and repeat.
Players can play at really high levels using only one build per matchup. Even if your opponent knows exactly what you are doing it shouldn't matter. Good builds are builds that are safe against many different strategies.
this is indeed the best and most effetive PvZ style, if you dont count super abusive stuff which works with very high percentage currently. Unfortunately i cant convince my teammates to play like this
I'm not so happy that probably more Ps gonan do this now, but hey
Nice post but a feel a little uneasy about this. It's nice that you mapped out this build but you brushed over a few important points. When providing a very standard robust build, the intricacies really make or break your game. This reminds me of the VOD series by stylish back in brood war. He was trying to teach/ explain pro builds and the driving force behind his ideas was he saw a pro do it. I feel like the same idea applies to this thread because of your sources. I guess a few questions are in order to kind of help guide future threads.
First off, what is special about 8 sentries? Why if ever do you restart sentry production and how early? If you lose a few sentries to some early aggression, do you delay tech or just work with less sentries? How does this affect your early pressure? Your trigger to "shark mode" is a build completion, but wouldn't it be more beneficial to base it upon some unit count? I'm guessing inc has it mapped such that his sentries have some specific amount of energy. So going back to my question about losing sentries, how would you adapt your first pushout accordingly? Just warping in sentries at a later late seems pretty weak because you don't have that energy buildup phase. It's the answering of these simple yet important questions that truly make a guide valuable.
Thanks for the comments guys! May your PvZ become your best matchup as it became mine.
@kNyTTyM: iNc described 8 sentries as being a magic number. When playing through the build, it feels like the most you can get away with without delaying tech, and I literally have never run out of forcefields when I needed them. That's not something I can say about my experience with 4 or even 6 sentries.
The trigger for entering shark mode should always be the completion of the photon cannon. Without it, you can't leave your mineral line unattended due to the threat of speedling harassment.
Losing sentries is something you try your hardest to avoid. You can usually get around losing a few by building your 4th assimilator earlier to compensate or warping in a few more zealots to save gas, but heavy sentry losses will severely delay your tech. So you always play defensively with forcefields when moving around.
I don't know how you guys deal with it, but i don't like this build much. It is ok against a Macro Zerg, but it seems to fragil against aggressiv playstyle.
Especially if the Zerg engages you aggressivly, to trade his army (Zerglings,Roaches) against your Sentrys, you just can't rebuild them fast enough, while teching too high tier units. Also the DPS early for me doesn't seem enough to deal with all-ins.
Meaning what should you do when you opponent goes mass macro mode and ignores your "shark mode", sure you could too a Timing attack, but you can be sure enough? since he could have hiding alot of Units somewhere else for flanking.
Incontrol often emphasize it, that he doesn't really want to engage fully until colossus. which gives imho Zerg to much room to Macro up, cause he knows you are in "shark mode" and are not gonna engage for real anyway.
This Strategy lacks aggression for a long time in my eyes. It works when the Zerg remains passive and reacts to sharkmode with building units instead of drones, but what if he doesn't?
First you laugh at him for being in bronze. "I see a huge army walking toward my base, so I guess now is the perfect time to build 10 drones!" In fact he wouldn't even see it walking toward his base, since he wouldn't bother scouting if his plan was to just make drones blindly.
Next you walk into their base and kill him, while making a proxy pylon just in case you miss a forcefield and his drones start killing your units.
Against early all-ins, that's what the scouting probe is for...
Wow, a very well written and presented thread. Does make a nice change in the strategy forum :p
As primarily a zerg player, and secondarily a protoss player, I agree this is both a great way to improve generally and a great strategy to improve with.
This strategy is pretty solid, I've used it multiple times. What works just as well against denying expansions (in lieu of DT) is getting a warp prism after your 2nd or 3rd colossus. It lets you easily direct off-base expansions without investing into the dark shrine + DT, and provides a mineral only solution to keep expansions in check.
I have been struggling with PvZ for a while now and was looking for a way to pimp my play up Incontrol style but couldn't find anything really... His stream seems to be at impossible times for europeans and I don't know of any VODs (are there VODs?!)
Really well done write-up, this should help many toss-players at refining their PvZ playstyle.
Although I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of the very fast 4th gate, I found that I'm never really able to support the 4 gates at this point in time. Considering you want to build a cannon, start the +1 weapons upgrade, chrono-boost probes and constantly add pylons (you mustn't trade armies at this point). Unless the zerg goes really speedling-heavy I prefer throwing down the robotics earlier after the hallucinated phoenix has confirmed roach-play and then add my 4th gate. But that's obviously just a personal preference.
This might be a bit of an obvious/noob question but in regards to probes/economy. What do we call 3 saturated bases? Is that the complete 30 probes at every base? As that seems like slight overkill or is it 16 probes on minerals per base and take all gases?
On February 19 2011 22:09 sleepingdog wrote: Really well done write-up, this should help many toss-players at refining their PvZ playstyle.
Although I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of the very fast 4th gate, I found that I'm never really able to support the 4 gates at this point in time. Considering you want to build a cannon, start the +1 weapons upgrade, chrono-boost probes and constantly add pylons (you mustn't trade armies at this point). Unless the zerg goes really speedling-heavy I prefer throwing down the robotics earlier after the hallucinated phoenix has confirmed roach-play and then add my 4th gate. But that's obviously just a personal preference.
Roach- Roach/Ling all-ins tend to happen before Hallucinate is finished
On February 19 2011 21:51 b_unnies wrote: eh i dont think u should call it the incontrol style because this general idea was done all the way back pre-roach buff patch
He did it pre-roach aswell. I'm pretty sure he's the inventor of the build, at least he optimized and popularized it.
On February 19 2011 22:09 sleepingdog wrote: Really well done write-up, this should help many toss-players at refining their PvZ playstyle.
Although I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of the very fast 4th gate, I found that I'm never really able to support the 4 gates at this point in time. Considering you want to build a cannon, start the +1 weapons upgrade, chrono-boost probes and constantly add pylons (you mustn't trade armies at this point). Unless the zerg goes really speedling-heavy I prefer throwing down the robotics earlier after the hallucinated phoenix has confirmed roach-play and then add my 4th gate. But that's obviously just a personal preference.
Roach- Roach/Ling all-ins tend to happen before Hallucinate is finished
with 1 or 2 canons and tones of forcefields u should be good even without that quicker 4th gate
On February 19 2011 22:09 sleepingdog wrote: Really well done write-up, this should help many toss-players at refining their PvZ playstyle.
Although I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of the very fast 4th gate, I found that I'm never really able to support the 4 gates at this point in time. Considering you want to build a cannon, start the +1 weapons upgrade, chrono-boost probes and constantly add pylons (you mustn't trade armies at this point). Unless the zerg goes really speedling-heavy I prefer throwing down the robotics earlier after the hallucinated phoenix has confirmed roach-play and then add my 4th gate. But that's obviously just a personal preference.
Roach- Roach/Ling all-ins tend to happen before Hallucinate is finished
with 1 or 2 canons and tones of forcefields u should be good even without that quicker 4th gate
Should be fine yes, but you tend to get a lot of your Sentries sniped in the process, really need to reinforce quickly. Staying back, letting the nexus take damage while you chrono 4 gates, that extra gate is pretty noticeable
On February 19 2011 21:56 FliedLice wrote: Oh wow I love you...
I have been struggling with PvZ for a while now and was looking for a way to pimp my play up Incontrol style but couldn't find anything really... His stream seems to be at impossible times for europeans and I don't know of any VODs (are there VODs?!)
Having only really heard of iNcontroL's PvZ style, and never seeing it, this was a really nice post. PvZ is my favorite match-up because if I lose, I know that I lost a good game, and not to making one tiny scouting mistake or one tiny build order choice error. PvZ has the best progression of any other matchup for me.
The variation on this that I prefer, is to get a forge after my first gateway and delay gas a bit. It gives you the option to harass a zerg fast expand with cannons, or possibly fast expand yourself. Also, if you scout a really early pool, it makes you a bit more robust against that too. I usually have +1 weapons before I start "sharking."
All-in-all, a great write-up. I wish we had more "standard" play against Terran too...I'm tired of being nervous the entire matchup =).
Very well-written guide. It'll help a lot of players.
This build is a little too conservative for my taste in that it's safe against everything, but doesn't try to squeeze out every possible edge against what Z is actually doing, so I don't use this build per se, but I do use a lot of its concepts. For example, I believe you can safely 1-gate expand while skipping your first zealot against hatch first. Just note the gas timing and go straight for 1-gate stalker pressure and get your nexus and a wall-off up while you pressure. This opening seems much stronger economically than the 2-gas sentry expand and also forces Zerg to make some early defense. IMO, the 2-gas sentry expand falls behind hatch first economically, so if you aren't able to block Z's expo, you might switch openings.
Because I typically expand off of 1 gas, I only make 5 sentries whereas iNc says he likes 8. IMO, 5 gives you plenty of energy to forcefield what you need to forcefield, but the 2-gas sentry expand gives you an excess of gas early when you can only spend it on sentries. I suspect this gas excess is where the magic #8 came from, but I don't know if sentries #6-8 are a good reason to get that extra gas. It's something worth discussing anyway.
I focus on immortals more than collosi. I might be the only P player in the world who isn't crazy about collosi, but when a good Z player has time to get a balanced army with corruptors, collosi just feel like a liability that gives you a short-lived and expensive DPS burst. I typically get a few collosi eventually, but I like to apply pressure with gateway+immortal and take my third before getting my support bay. I believe I typically start blink and +2 weapons before I make my first collosus. This feels like it lets me apply better pressure and get a faster 3rd, but maybe I'm just wrong.
I think that while sticking to one build will almost certainly lead to better results (ie you'll win more games and climb the ladder faster), I don't think it is necessarily the best way to improve. Is a diamond player who experiments with multiple builds across all of the races less skilled at the game than a master league player who perfects one build and then sticks to it? I would argue no. The master level player would win in a "best of 7" tournament if both players chose their races, but the more well rounded player would probably win in a "best of 7" tournament where both players were forced to choose random.
Also, "standard play" advocates say things like "once you know your build in and out, you won't have to think about it when playing" and "you won't need to make decisions on the fly". However, no matter how standard you try to keep things, situations are going to arise where your plan has gone off the rails and you have to think on your feet. I think it is precisely in those situations where the non-standard players excel. They spend every game training how to think on their feet and make good decisions in weird situations. That skill might be useful less often than having really crisp macro, but it's a skill nonetheless.
One race, one build is the best way to win, not the best way to improve. A jack of all trades is exactly what a lot of players want to be.
On February 20 2011 00:45 unit wrote: with the push, how do you deal with mass infestor play? as equal infestor to colossus with neural parasite will win as all the colossus will be dead
I think this works well as a general guideline for people who don't have a good plan in PvZ, from where on they can adjust it to something that suits their playstyle better. Kcdc is right that the opening in this form does fall behind against Hatch first usually though if you don't apply pressure. I usually just pressure with Zealot + Stalker while still getting the 2nd and 3rd gate (and the second gas) before the Nexus on maps with an open natural because I feel that I don't get enough units out fast enough to defend with only 1 Gate. I also still want to get a fair amount of Sentries early in case I want to go for a 6 gate +1 push or any variation of it.
Usually my goal is the Colossi/Void Ray deathball though, so I cut the 4th gate altogether and build more cannons instead to stay safe while getting the Robo up earlier, and the Robo bay when I have confirmed that he is not going Mutas. I feel that Zealots are just dead weight and eat into my supply against the usual Roach/Hydra/Corruptor composition, and that is all the 4th gate has to offer if I don't miss my warpins.
So basically, I am trying to be greedy and get my 3rd base off 3 gates + robo and cannons. Then I will add some Gates and 2 Stargates, which is where I stop having a streamlined plan and just try to deny expansions/expand myself.
On February 19 2011 21:56 FliedLice wrote: Oh wow I love you...
I have been struggling with PvZ for a while now and was looking for a way to pimp my play up Incontrol style but couldn't find anything really... His stream seems to be at impossible times for europeans and I don't know of any VODs (are there VODs?!)
Nice! Thanks for writing this up. Zerg player here who plays toss when too frustrated to keep playin zerg (not a QQ comment, warp-ins are cool looking and fun!) this is really helpful for both honestly. Helps me understand the timings I've been seeing InControl teach Bitter from the other side and thx for the links to ICs lessons too.
I was actually looking for a write up of this, saw it when he he coached someone in PvZ with this strategy. This strategy fits my style of play perfectly (or well style i want to play, i amm still far away from actually being good haha). Its not cheesy or gimmicky, just solid, and after i am solid ill experiment with stuff.
So big thanks for the write up and big cheer to iNcontroL for being a baller with an awesome stream.
lol wow i play EXACTLY the same down to a T. ie hallucination, same unit comp, sharking (i call it fake pressure), DT to every base), except i get 1zlot, stalker, then sentry. the satlker is jus incase any all-in. but i skip the cannon at expo unless hallucination scout see's otherwise. also good to make pylons near enemys 3rd base nd u can also shark nd deny a zerg's 3rd on certains maps like xel naga with FF's.
its crazy how i do exactly what u do, but i never watch replays, streams, or anything. lol i just did exactly what kept winning me games.
I think in close position its better to do only just 6 sentries and start to make a Stargate + stalkers since by that time zerg just will have lingz and roach, this way u can punish him if he tries to presure with lingz + roaches early on
On February 19 2011 22:09 sleepingdog wrote: Really well done write-up, this should help many toss-players at refining their PvZ playstyle.
Although I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of the very fast 4th gate, I found that I'm never really able to support the 4 gates at this point in time. Considering you want to build a cannon, start the +1 weapons upgrade, chrono-boost probes and constantly add pylons (you mustn't trade armies at this point). Unless the zerg goes really speedling-heavy I prefer throwing down the robotics earlier after the hallucinated phoenix has confirmed roach-play and then add my 4th gate. But that's obviously just a personal preference.
I had the same issues as you mentioned, I was never able to support the 4th Gateway while keeping on top of everything else. My preferred 4th Gateway timing is about the same as yours as well. After scouting what the Zerg is doing with my Hallucinated Phoenix, I either take that time to add 3 Gateways to 6 Gate against Mutas, or drop my Robo and the 4th Gateway against Roaches.
Great job with the writing! I've watched the video where he describes "Shark Mode" over and over, but this is the most well-written summary of what he tries to go for. Many thanks :D
I don't want to post another thread about the question, so here I go (It's related to this topic so I think I'm okay, even if I'm posting the same thing).
In cross positions on a map such as Lost Temple or Shakuras, should you use 15 nex or 3 gate expo (assuming the zerg is going to FE or just 14 gas 14 pool).
What about close-air where zerg can go hydra drops? That would kill 15 nex (air, lost temple) so would 3 gate expo be better?
Does this sentry heavy build depend a lot on have ridiculously solid basics? If incontrol at almost any point before he got his 5 collossi, didn't pay attention to his army when Ret attacked it seemed like he wasgoing to be dead. Also he had some ridiculouse FFs. FFing that well is not easy AT ALL, and that strategy seems very very unforgiving. You use your FF and run, but if you make a mistake (such as zerg attacks your army while you were microing/upgrading/teching) and lose a significant amount of sentries, there seems to be almost no way to hold off the zerg macro. It seems like a very solid, strong build assuming you have the basic mechanics to back it up, but for most of us who don't have the mechanics ability that InControl has, it seems pretty difficult. I've tried the strategy, and got mauled multiple times by either a zreg opponent who used burrow very well against me, or where i missed a couple FFs and my army got surrounded very quickly. So i guess my question is, is this build viable for someone who doesn't have the high level mechanics that InControl shows? FF is very strong but it does require the mechanics to use, and the collossi seems to come out a bit late that even a small mismicro seems it'll be very unforgiving untill you get the collossi out.
To people talking about 4th gate before forge, I agree with sleepingdog that I usually feel like I can't afford it. I think getting the forge first is better as that allows you to get a cannon faster for defense plus the faster upgrade, allowing you to enter shark mode faster.
On February 20 2011 10:36 TossNub wrote: Does this sentry heavy build depend a lot on have ridiculously solid basics? If incontrol at almost any point before he got his 5 collossi, didn't pay attention to his army when Ret attacked it seemed like he wasgoing to be dead. Also he had some ridiculouse FFs. FFing that well is not easy AT ALL, and that strategy seems very very unforgiving. You use your FF and run, but if you make a mistake (such as zerg attacks your army while you were microing/upgrading/teching) and lose a significant amount of sentries, there seems to be almost no way to hold off the zerg macro. It seems like a very solid, strong build assuming you have the basic mechanics to back it up, but for most of us who don't have the mechanics ability that InControl has, it seems pretty difficult. I've tried the strategy, and got mauled multiple times by either a zreg opponent who used burrow very well against me, or where i missed a couple FFs and my army got surrounded very quickly. So i guess my question is, is this build viable for someone who doesn't have the high level mechanics that InControl shows? FF is very strong but it does require the mechanics to use, and the collossi seems to come out a bit late that even a small mismicro seems it'll be very unforgiving untill you get the collossi out.
Unfortunately, great forcefields are going to be necessary at almost every level. This is what makes playing Protoss hard. Other races will complain that Protoss is too easy to play, but they generally don't understand that if we're half a second late on a forcefield, it can easily cost us the game.
This build is particularly reliant on forcefields tho. If you want something that's a little more robust in the face of small micro lapses, you can use 4 gate, 6 gate or 2 base blink timings.
To add to the discussion, its important to remember that you should never follow the EXACT build blindly. I was always going 8-9 sentries + 1 zealot then expand but by mid-diamond I was just getting rolled.
To beat this exact build they go 15 pool into expand and get speed. A heavy sentry force cannot put pressure on him vs speedlings so he buys himself droning time and he might even double expand at this point. Then they follow up with early hydra den which shuts down a gateway push. Again, they can do crazy droning or expand.
The way I realised I could beat this was to get more stalkers and zealots out early and use this to push. This deals with speedlings which forces the zerg to start getting roaches and if he double expand you can just drop another gate and go kill him right away. With the gas that I saved, I get robo bay out before I expand. This means i have access to immortals if he goes crazy with roaches or I have collossus if he goes hydra. This is important as it makes pushing out vs a zerg who has teched fast to hydra possible.
Essentially this still arrives at the final unit composition of stalkers, collossus, 8-9 sentries and good upgrades so is the same style of play but the timings are different in reaction to what the zerg does. I think timing your teching / expanding in line with the zergs is important in PvZ as it means you can always pressure them and there are no periods where he can crush you if you push out against him. This means zerg is never safe from you and "shark mode" becomes effective. If you "shark" with 8-9 sentries and 1 zealot vs mass speedlings your opponent just laughs and kills you. You have to shark with something that genuinely scares the zerg!
In effect, protoss dictates the unit composition with zerg reacting but zerg dictactes expo / tech timings and protoss has to react.
On February 20 2011 10:36 TossNub wrote: Does this sentry heavy build depend a lot on have ridiculously solid basics? If incontrol at almost any point before he got his 5 collossi, didn't pay attention to his army when Ret attacked it seemed like he wasgoing to be dead. Also he had some ridiculouse FFs. FFing that well is not easy AT ALL, and that strategy seems very very unforgiving. You use your FF and run, but if you make a mistake (such as zerg attacks your army while you were microing/upgrading/teching) and lose a significant amount of sentries, there seems to be almost no way to hold off the zerg macro. It seems like a very solid, strong build assuming you have the basic mechanics to back it up, but for most of us who don't have the mechanics ability that InControl has, it seems pretty difficult. I've tried the strategy, and got mauled multiple times by either a zreg opponent who used burrow very well against me, or where i missed a couple FFs and my army got surrounded very quickly. So i guess my question is, is this build viable for someone who doesn't have the high level mechanics that InControl shows? FF is very strong but it does require the mechanics to use, and the collossi seems to come out a bit late that even a small mismicro seems it'll be very unforgiving untill you get the collossi out.
Unfortunately, great forcefields are going to be necessary at almost every level. This is what makes playing Protoss hard. Other races will complain that Protoss is too easy to play, but they generally don't understand that if we're half a second late on a forcefield, it can easily cost us the game.
This build is particularly reliant on forcefields tho. If you want something that's a little more robust in the face of small micro lapses, you can use 4 gate, 6 gate or 2 base blink timings.
I'm just saying for the sake of this discussion, i feel like the reason a lot of people don't do this is because of how exact of FFs are needed. InControl's build seems too unforgiving for it to be used at lower level play, so it seems a bit demanding to ask a bronze/silver player to use a build like that even more so on some maps with a relatively wide open center. InControl's build is awesome, and I really wish i could use it, but i know that trying to use this in a ranked game i will get ROLLED for making a couple small mistakes in the early game.
I'm just saying for the sake of this discussion, i feel like the reason a lot of people don't do this is because of how exact of FFs are needed. InControl's build seems too unforgiving for it to be used at lower level play, so it seems a bit demanding to ask a bronze/silver player to use a build like that even more so on some maps with a relatively wide open center. InControl's build is awesome, and I really wish i could use it, but i know that trying to use this in a ranked game i will get ROLLED for making a couple small mistakes in the early game.
I was in Diamond when I switched to this style of play and got rolled A LOT! However, only way to get better is to practice and be willing to lose matches. Trying this has made my FF so much better! A lot of it is actually how to allocate your attention rather than having fast reactions.
Anyway, for lower level players this style or that style doesnt matter so much. Just counter cheese, have good macro, get good expand timings. Thats it really.
As a side not. People love to jump on the bandwagon of pointing at P and saying it is easy to play but just because certain pro players made a show about how it is imba. It might be imba at THEIR level of play where everyone has excellent micro but from Gold - Low diamond, Protoss is really tough to play mainly because all your gateway units are fundamentally weaker on their own. Its the combination of stalker zealot and FF that makes you even with MM or speedling roach.
On February 20 2011 10:36 TossNub wrote: Does this sentry heavy build depend a lot on have ridiculously solid basics? If incontrol at almost any point before he got his 5 collossi, didn't pay attention to his army when Ret attacked it seemed like he wasgoing to be dead. Also he had some ridiculouse FFs. FFing that well is not easy AT ALL, and that strategy seems very very unforgiving. You use your FF and run, but if you make a mistake (such as zerg attacks your army while you were microing/upgrading/teching) and lose a significant amount of sentries, there seems to be almost no way to hold off the zerg macro. It seems like a very solid, strong build assuming you have the basic mechanics to back it up, but for most of us who don't have the mechanics ability that InControl has, it seems pretty difficult. I've tried the strategy, and got mauled multiple times by either a zreg opponent who used burrow very well against me, or where i missed a couple FFs and my army got surrounded very quickly. So i guess my question is, is this build viable for someone who doesn't have the high level mechanics that InControl shows? FF is very strong but it does require the mechanics to use, and the collossi seems to come out a bit late that even a small mismicro seems it'll be very unforgiving untill you get the collossi out.
Unfortunately, great forcefields are going to be necessary at almost every level. This is what makes playing Protoss hard. Other races will complain that Protoss is too easy to play, but they generally don't understand that if we're half a second late on a forcefield, it can easily cost us the game.
This build is particularly reliant on forcefields tho. If you want something that's a little more robust in the face of small micro lapses, you can use 4 gate, 6 gate or 2 base blink timings.
I'm just saying for the sake of this discussion, i feel like the reason a lot of people don't do this is because of how exact of FFs are needed. InControl's build seems too unforgiving for it to be used at lower level play, so it seems a bit demanding to ask a bronze/silver player to use a build like that even more so on some maps with a relatively wide open center. InControl's build is awesome, and I really wish i could use it, but i know that trying to use this in a ranked game i will get ROLLED for making a couple small mistakes in the early game.
It all depends on the level of play you eventually want to reach - if you plan on playing on higher level eventually it is definitely worth getting rolled in bronze/silver multiple times because on this level it's much more easy to practice this stuff. And forcefields are always necessary in mid/lategame both vs zerg and vs terran...therefore the sentry-expo is even a great way to "force" yourself to practice force-field-placement each and every game.
I feel this expo style may be a bit too slow on maps like shakuras or cross positions LT. It almost seems more efficient to just forge FE/15 nex, whichever term you prefer. Outside of that and the slight bump mutas can cause, this build/style/term of choice, is amazingly stable.
On February 21 2011 10:40 CaptainHaz wrote: I feel this expo style may be a bit too slow on maps like shakuras or cross positions LT. It almost seems more efficient to just forge FE/15 nex, whichever term you prefer. Outside of that and the slight bump mutas can cause, this build/style/term of choice, is amazingly stable.
Thanks for the writeup <3
Yes, for some reason iNControl is so freaking good that even on cross he can use this build and still win. I used 3 gate expo on cross/shakuras and most of the time, got owned, because sentries are too slow (and with speedlings+overlords, he knows everything) and not "threatening" until there are the stalkers for shark mode.
I faced this zerg on cross and I knew my zealot wouldn't be able to get there before he has zerglings so I just left it at the wall and so once I started getting sentries (he saw this with a cliff ov), he droned like he never did before.
He obviously knew that I would never be able to reach him in time, and even if I did, he can create proper defenses. Also, there are potential back-stabs as well during shark mode.
Ever since I saw my first iNcontroL coaching VOD from Zomax, my PvZ win rate and matchup understanding have both skyorcketed. Thanks for posting this guide =D Definitely a wonderful place to look in case I forgot a timing or something
On February 20 2011 00:53 archwaykitten wrote: I think that while sticking to one build will almost certainly lead to better results (ie you'll win more games and climb the ladder faster), I don't think it is necessarily the best way to improve. Is a diamond player who experiments with multiple builds across all of the races less skilled at the game than a master league player who perfects one build and then sticks to it? I would argue no. The master level player would win in a "best of 7" tournament if both players chose their races, but the more well rounded player would probably win in a "best of 7" tournament where both players were forced to choose random.
All you basically said here is that a random player is better at playing random than a non-random player. Think before you post please.
This was so helpful. Its been a struggle for me to find a strategy that is solid. Can't wait for the PvT and hopefully PvP threads. Keep up the good work
the biggest problem with this build is banes/speedling early game. from the start of the game to the time u start setting up ur expo, you essentially give up map control to the zerg. any decent zerg would have 1 ling at each watchtowers and a group of lings to roam the map. if you use probe to scout, speedlings can easily chase the probe down. when you enter "shark mode" your army will mostly consists of sentries, 1-2 zealots, and a couple stalks which is also around the time that Z's attacks u with banes+lings (9~ mins into the game)
On February 21 2011 10:40 CaptainHaz wrote: I feel this expo style may be a bit too slow on maps like shakuras or cross positions LT. It almost seems more efficient to just forge FE/15 nex, whichever term you prefer. Outside of that and the slight bump mutas can cause, this build/style/term of choice, is amazingly stable.
Thanks for the writeup <3
Yes, for some reason iNControl is so freaking good that even on cross he can use this build and still win. I used 3 gate expo on cross/shakuras and most of the time, got owned, because sentries are too slow (and with speedlings+overlords, he knows everything) and not "threatening" until there are the stalkers for shark mode.
I faced this zerg on cross and I knew my zealot wouldn't be able to get there before he has zerglings so I just left it at the wall and so once I started getting sentries (he saw this with a cliff ov), he droned like he never did before.
He obviously knew that I would never be able to reach him in time, and even if I did, he can create proper defenses. Also, there are potential back-stabs as well during shark mode.
This is 2900 masters, by the way.
You could at that stage, skip the third gateway to expand earlier and just chrono boost your nexus non stop, that is what I have been doing everytime I see a 14/15 Hatch. You have the mineral income from chrono boosting to drop your other two gateways and forge right after the expo
On February 20 2011 00:53 archwaykitten wrote: One criticism:
I think that while sticking to one build will almost certainly lead to better results (ie you'll win more games and climb the ladder faster), I don't think it is necessarily the best way to improve. Is a diamond player who experiments with multiple builds across all of the races less skilled at the game than a master league player who perfects one build and then sticks to it? I would argue no. The master level player would win in a "best of 7" tournament if both players chose their races, but the more well rounded player would probably win in a "best of 7" tournament where both players were forced to choose random.
This is a pretty dumb post.
"Someone who plays random more often than someone who does not play random will be better at situations where they are forced to play random"
NO WAY
Can you name a single memorable or significant tournament, ever, in the history of Brood War, or SC2, where participants were forced to choose Random?
Key word there, significant. "Some tournament" run by "some guy" does not count.
I'm curious - for our 3rd base, when we add a load of gates - why not replace one of the gates with a robo, not for more Colossi, but for Immortals? We're gonna have tonnes of Stalkers anyway with 6-7 gates in total, so wouldn't, say, having 3-4 immortals just be a nice extra touch compared to 6-8 stalkers?
Or is it really just about the speed of reinforcement, or blink stalker mobility? Even so, like I said you'll be having tonnes of Stalkers in any case.
about the ordering- i still have qualms about the 4th gate right after the nexus but I'm still waiting to hear geoff's thoughts on this ^^ watching him do this and talk about it on a coaches corner is pretty much how i began to beat any decent zerg ever. so if you are struggling with pvz this is the best style, hands down.
I can tell you that this build has helped out my PvZ tremendously since I had my coaching session with InControl.
I love the concept of having one general opening and then adapting from there, and it is indeed easier to focus on a small # of builds you plan to use and learn how to adapt them based on scouting.
I'm a huge fan of getting hallucinate right after warpgates finished. Even if you are sharking around the map I find myself needing a more firm scouting information to make good decisions. The last thing you want to do ( especially on big maps ) is overextend your army trying to figure out their tech path.
I typically hold off on building support bay until I see a hydra den. You really don't need colossi for roaches, and you certainly don't need them if they are going for mutas. If you get hallucinate out quickly, you can wait on that scouting before dropping your robo. A quick 6 gate push with a lot of stalkers after scouting spire is a very strong play.
The other thing I would add that I don't see in this guide is that you will probably want to start working void rays into the mix after your initial colossi push.
On February 22 2011 02:25 Khaladas wrote: I'm a huge fan of getting hallucinate right after warpgates finished. Even if you are sharking around the map I find myself needing a more firm scouting information to make good decisions. The last thing you want to do ( especially on big maps ) is overextend your army trying to figure out their tech path.
Also phoenix-scouting alternative attack-paths while "sharking" around is a really good approach to not die repeatedly vs counter-run-bys. Nothing more annoying than to clear one xel naga-tower on xel naga caverns just to find out that lings have run along the other side and are now happily crunching probes. (Obviously you can't split your army at that point).
Furthermore, the hallucinated phoenix can tell you if you even need to move out at all - some zergs just build enough units early on so that you can stay defensive and gear up to take an earlier third yourself. Or tech more quickly. I'm always quite disappointed to see players only using one phoenix early on and then the next one in mid-game to check for a third. With 7+ sentries you really can afford 1-2 more hallucinations earlier. Unless you are going for a massive timing push with multiple rows of force-fields to both split and trap everything of course.
On February 22 2011 02:25 Khaladas wrote: I can tell you that this build has helped out my PvZ tremendously since I had my coaching session with InControl.
I love the concept of having one general opening and then adapting from there, and it is indeed easier to focus on a small # of builds you plan to use and learn how to adapt them based on scouting.
I'm a huge fan of getting hallucinate right after warpgates finished. Even if you are sharking around the map I find myself needing a more firm scouting information to make good decisions. The last thing you want to do ( especially on big maps ) is overextend your army trying to figure out their tech path.
I typically hold off on building support bay until I see a hydra den. You really don't need colossi for roaches, and you certainly don't need them if they are going for mutas. If you get hallucinate out quickly, you can wait on that scouting before dropping your robo. A quick 6 gate push with a lot of stalkers after scouting spire is a very strong play.
The other thing I would add that I don't see in this guide is that you will probably want to start working void rays into the mix after your initial colossi push.
I find that getting colossi forces him to get less mutas for more (useless) corruptors since colossi + upgrades one shot lings
Great write-up. Like Kcdc's FE PvT, I feel like this is really going to guide me in the right direction. So far my PvZ plan has consisted of: Make sure I'm using the fundamentals, get 2 bases, get a lot of blink stalkers and colossi. Attack. I've gotta keep concepts simple since I'm a bronze. But I feel like I've progressed enough to start learning a build's full game arc.
I doubt I'll be able to use the build exactly as outlined here, but I think I'll be able to use a lot of it and tailor it to my preferences. Thanks a bunch
I think its really interesting analysing korean vs foreigner play style and artosis' argument for practicing one build seems to make sense.
A stupid question though...when you say just practice 1 build and learn to tweak it for different scenarios, does this essentially mean u just change the timing of your each building/unit or do you actually change what you build?? If you change what you build, isnt that essentially a different BO ur learning?? E.g. Say I practice 2 gate robo, but need to tweak for defending a 6 pool, normally i build a forge/cannons. So going by artosis' argument, should i instead just build my 2 gate earlier??
So basically my question is, does tweaking mean changing ur timings or is it actually learning slight modifications of ur standard build (i.e. building different things to adjust)?
Hello! Nice write up! I have been playing this strategy quite abit lately, but I have never defended fast burrowed roaches which hit before any colossus is able to pop. How am I supposed to react to this kind of play when I scout it? I usually build 2-3 canons at my base and wait for him to engage me at my natural. I usually start hallucination right after warpgate to scout these kind of things, I just don't know how to react. Should I be throwing 4th gateway down or robotics and do immortal? Should I try to engage him at my natural or before natural?
Side note. I play random. Major facepalm on your jack of all trades comment. All it takes is more work, there's distinct advantages and disadvantages to playing random, as well as only playing one race.
nice post , but i saw iNcontroL doing some 3 gate expand vs terran , basically it was mass sentries/stalkers , then expand while pressuring the terran with a proxy pylon if hes expanding ( ff to block reparing bunkers etc ) and I wanted to know if someone has some more precise info about that build cuz I want to work on it ( bored of that 2 gate robo ^^ ), thanks !
On March 02 2011 05:34 dre2k wrote: One thing i struggle with when using this build is the lack of ability to scout after your expansion goes up.
You can get around this by getting hallucination, but I feel like people shouldn't use it as a crutch when beginning to use the build. It makes you get less aggressive with shark mode, which you would otherwise be scouting with. That in turn lets your opponent drone a little harder and keep better map vision. But once you've gotten good at using shark mode, I think you really should be getting hallucination just for the occasional player who fakes the muta and actually goes roach, or the other way around.
On March 02 2011 05:34 dre2k wrote: One thing i struggle with when using this build is the lack of ability to scout after your expansion goes up.
You can get around this by getting hallucination, but I feel like people shouldn't use it as a crutch when beginning to use the build. It makes you get less aggressive with shark mode, which you would otherwise be scouting with. That in turn lets your opponent drone a little harder and keep better map vision. But once you've gotten good at using shark mode, I think you really should be getting hallucination just for the occasional player who fakes the muta and actually goes roach, or the other way around.
But what if i want to "scout" with shark mode and he runs with a ton of speedlings at me? And what if zerg opens with a ton of speedlings? Whenever a zerg does this and he harasses me a lot at my natural (just after/i'm about to expand) I just get overrun eventually.
Burrowed roach shouldn't be hard to hold off considering you have a cannon, stalkers, and a ton of force fields to push roaches out of range of both. Then you have immortals coming very soon as you make a robo around the time you have 5 stalkers.
Tehemperer and iamke55, you guise are ballers so was wondering if I can get your oppinion on shark mode.
I am at low master, and seems like zergs have a tendency to just drone like crazy anyway so from time to time I just assume they are whoring drones, so I PUSH RIGHT IN with my initial zealot or two and sentries only to find that they have a fuck ton of lings that do a nice surround on me.
I have tried getting a hallucinated pheonix to scout how exactly how much speedlings he got before going in to pressure but by then, he would have already COMPLETELY saturated his two bases and can easily churn out 2 loads of lings instantly, so I guess pressuring at that point is meaningless because I am not stopping him from whoring drones and even taking a fucking 3rd.
Sure there has been times when I have just push in and killed him REAL early because there is like 6 lings there, but more often I have just been back stabbed in with speed lings or just killed as soon as I get there.
What would you say is the best way to pressure with the shark mode? How do you tell how many lings he got before hallucination. It just feels like a freaking coin flip.
What would you say is the best way to pressure with the shark mode? How do you tell how many lings he got before hallucination. It just feels like a freaking coin flip.
I am not as high up as you, but the trick seems to be to always assume if you shark close to his base he won't be droning. As long as you are on at least equal bases, macroing correctly, and denying expansions you don't have to worry about pushing into his base. Most of the time you can read what he is doing by sharking the front of his base. If I see any normal build its usually pretty easy to stop.
The beauty of this build is the ability to run away, while still hitting their econ. The 2 things that help me vs zerg who mass speedling the most are leaving one zeal behind to block the ramp from run bys in the beginning and to never push excessively. I sometimes throw up a couple cannons to fight off mutas when I see this because its usually the next step. The cannons also help me shark without worrying as much..
If I don't gather the info I need from poking the front of their base I do add Hallucination or just get some extra obs.
The one ridiculous build that actually got me was an ultra/ling some guy threw at me. I was sharking and saw what I thought was enough info to get ready for mutas. 2 did actually come to my base, so I wasn't far off. It was the instant tech switch to ultras after those 2 got there that destroyed me. I coulda used another obs or hal that game..ugh.
Edit: One more thing, if you watch replays zerg almost always stops droning when you shark. If you feel the need to push into their base wait for a little more tech then the 2 zeal and 6-8 sentry.
On March 04 2011 13:33 CountBarq wrote: as a zerg I have to find a way to punish you tosses for goign mass sentry. i will find it. I swear I will!
Massing speedlings without letting the toss knows work. When he goes in shark-mode, all you gotta do is flank him, preferrably in open area. This is "blind", though, since if the protoss goes stargate, you'll be in trouble. Also, if the protoss stays defensive because he sees all your lings going towards him, then you have "wasted" larvae.
Basically, a surprise attack that requires a lot of larvae.
Don't need any pvsz Bo since P>Z we just need to play properly to rape them, everything works anyway lol..
And dunno why you talking about incontrol ~~ he didn't invent the build you talking about, and he is neither someone who wins any tournaments, but still a good thread
I'm a 2500 Diamond Protoss on the european servers and I play this build a lot in PvZ. I like the early investment into the mid/late game (sentries) and its also pretty safe against 1 base all ins from the zerg (if you scout it in time).
What I dont really understand or rather what I dont think works well if the zerg player knows that im 3 gate sentry fast expanding (which of course any diamond+ zerg should know) is that shark mode does not really work in my opinion. Sure you can "pressure" abit meaning move out, dance around the watch towers, maybe even poke on the zergs front door a little bit, but you have to be so damn careful because it only takes 1 good surround of zerglings and your complete late game investment (the sentries) is gone in less than 5 seconds.
and even if the zerg doesnt surround you, you can't put on any real pressure. if the zerg is good he knows the build which also means that he knows that theres no way on earth that P could kill him right now. in the early stages of shark mode it just takes a few roaches to deal with it combined with a few zerglings and then the zerg can drone up hard again and take a 3rd base really really really easily and theres nothing the protoss can do about it. absolutely nothing.
in the later stages of the pre-colossus shark mode (when you have like a few immortals and you just started robotics bay) zerg will already have hydras which absolutely destroy your army, if you would engage them. sure you poke a bit, limit his creep spread killing off some creep tumors etc but again, you have to be so careful not to get caught off guard, if you see his army engaging you absolutely have to forcefield it off because thats the stage of the game where you're waiting for your colossi. of course in the meantime zerg is already safely on at least 3 bases (if not 4) and you can't really take your 3rd until you have 2-3 colossi.
i had my fair share of success with this build and im not saying its bad but i dont really like the shark mode thing. i dont think it works very well against a good zerg, because it doesnt apply any real pressure and your "shark mode" army is pretty weak in my opinion and the zerg is free to expand and drone up.
of course when youre on 3 base and you got 4-5 colossi + blink stalkers and upgrades and a maxed out army its not that bad anymore, with good forcefield control and good blinks you can put on some real pressure, but again, in my opinion its far from over even then. zerg has such a good economy that he can throw wave after wave after wave at you, and your colossi get sniped anyways by corruptors, at least in most cases they do.
what are your thoughts about this? especially shark mode?
I have had great success with this build, except on backwater gulch.
There are two pathways into the natural - sentries and canon cannot cover them all. The main entrance into both natural and main is huge - sentry expand is not feasible, either, imho.
How do you toss deal with expanding on backwater gulch?
On March 05 2011 16:54 Quochobao wrote: I have had great success with this build, except on backwater gulch.
There are two pathways into the natural - sentries and canon cannot cover them all. The main entrance into both natural and main is huge - sentry expand is not feasible, either, imho.
How do you toss deal with expanding on backwater gulch?
I can't.. I have won only 2 games I can remember vs zerg on that map. I hate it with a passion.
On March 05 2011 16:54 Quochobao wrote: I have had great success with this build, except on backwater gulch.
There are two pathways into the natural - sentries and canon cannot cover them all. The main entrance into both natural and main is huge - sentry expand is not feasible, either, imho.
How do you toss deal with expanding on backwater gulch?
You can 3 gate expand on that map, although it is a bit awkward. Wall the farther path with gateway/forge or any two 3x3 buildings and put a cannon behind, then position your units in the closer path while being ready to forcefield your ramp against a run-by. I also like to make a cannon in the closer pathway just for the extra damage.
You probably also want to power gateway units harder after expanding than you would on other maps.
For those who are interested, I've created a YABOT build order for this here. I'm by no means a pro player, so if anyone with more experience finds any issues with the timings or the actual build order (I sure hope not, I pretty much transcribed it straight from this thread), post here, or better yet, leave a comment on the build order and I'll try to fix it asap. I watched the replays a time or two and tested the build myself to try to make the timings as accurate as possible, but I'll defer to someone with more experience on the matter.
What would you say is the best way to pressure with the shark mode? How do you tell how many lings he got before hallucination. It just feels like a freaking coin flip.
I am not as high up as you, but the trick seems to be to always assume if you shark close to his base he won't be droning. As long as you are on at least equal bases, macroing correctly, and denying expansions you don't have to worry about pushing into his base. Most of the time you can read what he is doing by sharking the front of his base. If I see any normal build its usually pretty easy to stop.
The beauty of this build is the ability to run away, while still hitting their econ. The 2 things that help me vs zerg who mass speedling the most are leaving one zeal behind to block the ramp from run bys in the beginning and to never push excessively. I sometimes throw up a couple cannons to fight off mutas when I see this because its usually the next step. The cannons also help me shark without worrying as much..
If I don't gather the info I need from poking the front of their base I do add Hallucination or just get some extra obs.
The one ridiculous build that actually got me was an ultra/ling some guy threw at me. I was sharking and saw what I thought was enough info to get ready for mutas. 2 did actually come to my base, so I wasn't far off. It was the instant tech switch to ultras after those 2 got there that destroyed me. I coulda used another obs or hal that game..ugh.
Edit: One more thing, if you watch replays zerg almost always stops droning when you shark. If you feel the need to push into their base wait for a little more tech then the 2 zeal and 6-8 sentry.
Actually I found that wound sharking around the front of the base, if there is 1 or 2 spines there, that is most than enough to stop any sort of pokage, because there is a real danger of a munch of lings from in from the back. Also sharking needs to start so early in order to stop the zerg from saturating both bases, and thats just impossible to do when you have a group of speedlings that can potentially run into your nat and clean it up, and this is before you have the cannons up.
If you wait until the cannons are up THEN start sharking, they have already saturated, or they have started roaches already. Sorry I don't have specific times.... but thats just generally what I have felt when sharking and I feel like its a risky move for next to no gain.
The game is even if they saturate both bases and have roaches already, since you also have both bases saturated. Sharking is there to make sure they don't skip the roach part and go 70 drones before any units.
On March 07 2011 09:02 iamke55 wrote: The game is even if they saturate both bases and have roaches already, since you also have both bases saturated. Sharking is there to make sure they don't skip the roach part and go 70 drones before any units.
I think I just suck then, or I am just doing something completely wrong. I feel like I am following the BO to the dot. But it has never been even, not even close. They seem to just be able to whore drones so very quick betwen two spines.
Any reason why the pros don't even move out and just stay at the nat?
For reference, here are the probe vs drone counts I usually see in replays vs good zergs, which I would consider an even game:
26 probes vs 20 drones on 1 base 31 probes vs 30 drones as nexus is building 33 probes vs 40 drones as nexus finishes 36 probes vs 45 drones shortly afterward Shark mode begins and Zerg usually is anywhere from 10-15 workers ahead until he reaches 70 when you're around 55-60.
Zerg needs more income because they don't have force field.
On March 07 2011 10:02 iamke55 wrote: For reference, here are the probe vs drone counts I usually see in replays vs good zergs, which I would consider an even game:
26 probes vs 20 drones on 1 base 31 probes vs 30 drones as nexus is building 33 probes vs 40 drones as nexus finishes 36 probes vs 45 drones shortly afterward Shark mode begins and Zerg usually is anywhere from 10-15 workers ahead until he reaches 70 when you're around 55-60.
Zerg needs more income because they don't have force field.
Ok it looks like I just suck... comparing mine to this. I think i need to have more consistent production.
BTW, are these the numbers for if the zerg is making lings at all?
Any advice on Slag Pits; I can't win vs Zerg on that map at all. The expo is incredibly hard to defend. I'm assuming a 3 Gate FE is still possible on Typhon and Shattered? I haven't had much success doing it on either of those maps. Do you need to make your gates on the bottom of the ramp already? There's been a trend in a lot of my losses where Zerg pumps up to 25-30 drones and then just rolls me over. I can't defend my expo on any of those new maps.
On March 09 2011 06:30 Supah wrote: Any advice on Slag Pits; I can't win vs Zerg on that map at all. The expo is incredibly hard to defend. I'm assuming a 3 Gate FE is still possible on Typhon and Shattered? I haven't had much success doing it on either of those maps. Do you need to make your gates on the bottom of the ramp already? There's been a trend in a lot of my losses where Zerg pumps up to 25-30 drones and then just rolls me over. I can't defend my expo on any of those new maps.
I am not in a much of a position to give advice cuz I suck dick, but i found making a wall from one end to the other connecting with the nexus is good, any holes can be plugged by a forcefield or two. But yeah I have lost so many fucking times to ling floods. Sim city is probably the answer.
On March 07 2011 10:02 iamke55 wrote: For reference, here are the probe vs drone counts I usually see in replays vs good zergs, which I would consider an even game:
26 probes vs 20 drones on 1 base 31 probes vs 30 drones as nexus is building 33 probes vs 40 drones as nexus finishes 36 probes vs 45 drones shortly afterward Shark mode begins and Zerg usually is anywhere from 10-15 workers ahead until he reaches 70 when you're around 55-60.
Zerg needs more income because they don't have force field.
Ok it looks like I just suck... comparing mine to this. I think i need to have more consistent production.
BTW, are these the numbers for if the zerg is making lings at all?
Just assuming a standard greedy zerg who makes as few lings as possible to survive and goes straight to roaches. If they get a ton of lings early on, they have to kill some probes or delay your expo to not fall behind in econ.
On March 09 2011 06:30 Supah wrote: Any advice on Slag Pits; I can't win vs Zerg on that map at all. The expo is incredibly hard to defend. I'm assuming a 3 Gate FE is still possible on Typhon and Shattered? I haven't had much success doing it on either of those maps. Do you need to make your gates on the bottom of the ramp already? There's been a trend in a lot of my losses where Zerg pumps up to 25-30 drones and then just rolls me over. I can't defend my expo on any of those new maps.
I have it thumbed down just because of these attacks. You have to either 4 gate expo or put a ton of buildings on the low ground.
I lost a few times to roach/speedling timing attacks just as my expo goes up so I updated the OP to describe how to deal with this.
On March 09 2011 06:30 Supah wrote: Any advice on Slag Pits; I can't win vs Zerg on that map at all. The expo is incredibly hard to defend. I'm assuming a 3 Gate FE is still possible on Typhon and Shattered? I haven't had much success doing it on either of those maps. Do you need to make your gates on the bottom of the ramp already? There's been a trend in a lot of my losses where Zerg pumps up to 25-30 drones and then just rolls me over. I can't defend my expo on any of those new maps.
I have it thumbed down just because of these attacks. You have to either 4 gate expo or put a ton of buildings on the low ground.
I lost a few times to roach/speedling timing attacks just as my expo goes up so I updated the OP to describe how to deal with this.
Hi iamke55,
I been following the exact build order as the one on the OP but I've found that before my 1st round of warp in (when I only have the 1 zealot and a couple of senties) my minerals go as high as 550, is that normal?
If course the minerals goes right down as I warp stuff in but even as I am moving out, the minerals are always over 500. I was thinking if it was worthwhile just going 4 gate expand anyway, because the timing of the expo going down dosn't seem to differ all that much, or am I doing something wrong?
The way I was thinking, if you can 4 gate every time like this and do a slighly delayed 4 gate push with heaps of sentries, would it make a zerg react more and put down more spines as soon as they see your 4 gates?
I been following the exact build order as the one on the OP but I've found that before my 1st round of warp in (when I only have the 1 zealot and a couple of senties) my minerals go as high as 550, is that normal?
If course the minerals goes right down as I warp stuff in but even as I am moving out, the minerals are always over 500. I was thinking if it was worthwhile just going 4 gate expand anyway, because the timing of the expo going down dosn't seem to differ all that much, or am I doing something wrong?
The way I was thinking, if you can 4 gate every time like this and do a slighly delayed 4 gate push with heaps of sentries, would it make a zerg react more and put down more spines as soon as they see your 4 gates?[/QUOTE]
I'm not iamke, but an over 3k Masters Toss, accept my help if you so please.
You propably understand the build other than I, since for me it is a way to get an ok fast expansion with 0 risk lots of probes and Sentries. Not an zomg ima rush for FE GOOGOOGOGO build
I can barely afford the Nexus when I'm at about 6-7 Sentrys and a zealot (Nexus being Nexus+1-2Pylons, for better positioning, future Cannon and Warpin)
What Is your second Gas timing? I get mine at 18-19. Is that early? Yes but I will not Chronoboost WG research so I get a few more Probes and Sentries faster wich allows me to have just as good of an Eco and be completely safe.
So, get your Gas earlier and spend your Chrono on Gates/Nexus, not on Warpgate technology. Unless you are under heavy preassure and feel like you have to.
Remember spending Chrono on WG research early is just wasted, it is not any more effective than doing it right before the end (Making 40 seconds 20 e.g.) but limits your options of chronoing probes/sentries.
My first round of warpin is 3 Sents, but at that point I already have one or two Zeals (depends on scouting) and 4-5 Sentries.
So when my Nexus gets planted I have a strong enough army to deal with any push that might accur at that time. that is between 45 and 55 food (again situational)
Just delay your Nexus and tech a little, since I do that I hardly ever lose against Zerg. only lost one PvZ within the last 15 or so. In that one my opponent was masters with 3k and about 100 games, wich is clearly a smurf of someone really good. <- lost due to having too few Gates at 5 Bases.
rEalGuapo !!! Sick advice ! thanks man I have ALWAYS cronoed my warp tech, this is the 1st time someone has told me not to, I am going to give that a go.
i fucking BEG you can you please share all your reps, the more the better. I am low masters but my win ratio against zerg is 1 - 2, unless I am 4 gating which brings it up to 2 - 1 lol.
oh and do you shark at all with your first lot of units?
seems like almost all toss do this build now. i play zerg and follow muck's zvp build which is ling/bling/hydra/infestor/ultra (only a handful of infestors and hydras as needed for vr). this build in my experience owns 3 gate expo.
my general gameplan is mass lings on 3 hatch/2 base, double evo upgrades. and when you expo come try to kill u. i put down my third base when i move out and with 3 hatches already can drone like crazy. honestly unless u specifically plan your base to withstand this ling assault its not possible to hold it. no one, not one person has saved their expo. lings are so fast you can dance in and out of ff's, and then when he is out of ff's blings mop up.
i think the zvp meta will shift to ling/bling for the map control (speaking only for myself i havent made a roach in zvp in 2 weeks, and my % against toss is very high atm) and synergy with ultras. i dont know what the proper toss response is to double evo ling swarms. feels very strong to me.
This kind of mentality only works on the NA-EU server where players arent proactive. Pretty much all of the zerg all ins squash that. The fast Hydra build by nexCoCa destroys that. If you arent against a macro Zerg,your dead. If he plays the Losira style, that way of playing isnt good fly high....if you time your overseers around the time that the Collosi needs to come out....yeah get it...OGSJookTo muta build crush that as well...
....basically any proactive zerg can crush that build. The weakness is that ``shark mode`` crap and the thought that the zerg will use any calm moments to drone up, which starts to not be the case anymore.
On March 15 2011 09:36 HowSoOnIsNow wrote: This kind of mentality only works on the NA-EU server where players arent proactive. Pretty much all of the zerg all ins squash that. The fast Hydra build by nexCoCa destroys that. If you arent against a macro Zerg,your dead. If he plays the Losira style, that way of playing isnt good fly high....if you time your overseers around the time that the Collosi needs to come out....yeah get it...OGSJookTo muta build crush that as well...
....basically any proactive zerg can crush that build. The weakness is that ``shark mode`` crap and the thought that the zerg will use any calm moments to drone up, which starts to not be the case anymore.
As much as I love this build I am going to second this, that asrk mode is complete utter rubbish. Sure he will work against a macroing zerg, but you have no idea what he is doing. for all you know he could have done a fast hydra build or just mass all in speedlings and you are fuked.
On March 15 2011 09:36 HowSoOnIsNow wrote: This kind of mentality only works on the NA-EU server where players arent proactive. Pretty much all of the zerg all ins squash that. The fast Hydra build by nexCoCa destroys that. If you arent against a macro Zerg,your dead. If he plays the Losira style, that way of playing isnt good fly high....if you time your overseers around the time that the Collosi needs to come out....yeah get it...OGSJookTo muta build crush that as well...
....basically any proactive zerg can crush that build. The weakness is that ``shark mode`` crap and the thought that the zerg will use any calm moments to drone up, which starts to not be the case anymore.
As much as I love this build I am going to second this, that asrk mode is complete utter rubbish. Sure he will work against a macroing zerg, but you have no idea what he is doing. for all you know he could have done a fast hydra build or just mass all in speedlings and you are fuked.
How do you prefer to use the chronoboost? I have been using it on warpgate research (3 I think) and it seems to finish right as the second and third gateways do if they are put down by 26-27 supply. I have seen iNcontrol not use any chrono on the research but instead throws down earlier gateways and uses it on sentry production.
On March 15 2011 16:29 AirbladeOrange wrote: How do you prefer to use the chronoboost? I have been using it on warpgate research (3 I think) and it seems to finish right as the second and third gateways do if they are put down by 26-27 supply. I have seen iNcontrol not use any chrono on the research but instead throws down earlier gateways and uses it on sentry production.
Watching his stream leads me to believe that using CB on the sentries is the smarter option since you get the critical amount earlier as well as begin to gain map control.
On March 15 2011 16:29 AirbladeOrange wrote: How do you prefer to use the chronoboost? I have been using it on warpgate research (3 I think) and it seems to finish right as the second and third gateways do if they are put down by 26-27 supply. I have seen iNcontrol not use any chrono on the research but instead throws down earlier gateways and uses it on sentry production.
Watching his stream leads me to believe that using CB on the sentries is the smarter option since you get the critical amount earlier as well as begin to gain map control.
Boosting sentries at first is the better choice because your sentries will finish earlier then which allows them to build up energy. Afterwards it is useful to synchronize warpgate finishing and your gateways just being idle. For this strat I believe boosting your first gate twice and your warpgate tech 3x is best.
This means you´re first gate will make 3 sentries with 2x CB = 126 - 20 = 106 secs. Warpgate tech will take 140 - 30 = 110 secs. Since your first zealot usually finishes just a bit after your cyber does this will line up exactly. Your 2nd and 3rd gate will then finish about the same time as warpgate tech does. Overall boosting warpgate tech is a bit more efficient then boosting gateways itself when you use 3+ gateways like this build does. Every round of units you warp in instead of just making them saves you 10 secs on each warpgate. Boosting a gateway only saves you 10 secs on that single gateway. Also warpgates have the advantage of getting a unit instantly and then having to wait whereas with gateways you have to wait first and then get the unit, with sentries this gives warpgates a specific advantage of your sentries having a bit more energy.
Conclusion: focussing more chrono on warpgates then on gateways is more efficient with this build. Synchronizing your timings is also important to not have idle time on your gates so that is important too. Overall I think the most efficient is 2 boost on first gate and 3 on the warpgate. This does mean you can only afford 3 (i think) boosts on the nexus but this will be compensated by being able to get your natural faster since you reach a good enough sentry level faster. 1 boost on gate, 2 on WG and 5 on your nexus can also be fine but makes getting your nexus a bit less safe, perhaps an option for bigger maps.
edit: i don't know how incontrol is doing it but if he spends all chrono on the gate's he is doing it wrong.
I'd like to ask a few questions/note's about this build by the way, I suppose iamke can answer them for me:
Question #1 - Do you think it is useful to delay getting/mining your first gas so you can get your second gas faster?
I've been experimenting with this and it has some benefits to the traditional get your first gas when you can. Note that it doesn't matter for your total gas & mineral income if you get your first gas 20 secs later but your 2nd gas 20 secs faster. It also doesn't matter for your total mineral income as long as you make sure you don't get oversaturated at first, which happens at 18 probes (17 isn't saturated because of 1 scouting probe). Because you mine a bit more minerals early on due to not getting gas yet you will have just a tad more income early (and less later). This allows you to go gas-gas-cyber instead of gas-cyber-gas while still having the cyber ASAP when the gate finishes. Note that it doesn't really matter when you make the first gas but only when you start mining it. The benefits of getting your first gas later and 2nd gas faster are these: 1. you can switch plans later since you haven't commited to gas yet. For example if you scout a 14 hatch around the 15 probe mark you can put down a forge and go for the zealot + cannon rush on their expo. If you have already gotten gas you missed the oppurtunity for this as your cannons will be late. You can also defend against 6,7 or 8 pools more comfortably because you can get a forge or cyber+zealot faster delaying gas alltogether. 2. because of point 1 you can afford to scout later on some 2 player maps like xel naga. You will be able to pressure a 14 hatch with the zealot+cannon rush and you can be safe against a 6 pool by putting up forge and 2nd pylon ASAP when seeing it coming. 3. you are much less likely to be gas stolen because you will be putting up the 2nd gas much faster or even at the same time. Disadvantages may be: 1. if you do get gas stolen it is much worse for you. However that generally shouldn't happen. You can always get the first gas quickly but delay mining from it UNLESS you see a drone coming in. 2. they can scout your build slightly faster, however basically ANY build in PvZ has 2 gas so they won't get that too much from that.
Overall I think it is worth it for improved versatility and much less chance to be gas stolen. I've always found getting gas stolen to be terrible with this sentry style as it immediately makes your build impossible. Switching to a 4 gate is also a crappy answer as the gas they've stolen actually reveals the nexus (most of the time?) so they can see if your massively boosting something and not making probes -> they easily counter your 4 gate.
Question #2 - How do you feel this standard PvZ style holds up at some of the new ladder maps?
For me I've been having trouble with this style at Typhon peaks, Slagpits and to a lesser extent Backwater gulch. Key aspects of this strategy are being able to defend your natural with a cannon and sentries, which requires a somewhat closed natural, and being able to (fake) pressure so they can't completely outmacro you. At Typhon peaks and Slagpits especially I see problems with both of these points. First of all the naturals on those maps are very open which makes it difficult to stop roach/ling pushes. Xel naga still has some chokes you can ff to buy time and a ramp close to your natural. On typhon peaks and slagpits you have problems protecting both your ramp and your natural imo. Also on those maps the natural to natural distance can be quite long (especially cross spawn) which makes it much harder to pressure them with your so-called 'shark mode'. They can drone up more freely because of that and crush you later on much easier. Finally colossus / sentry / stalker seems to be much less viable in general on those maps. This leaves me to wonder if this style is even worth it at all on those maps. For example stargate strats are relatively better on those maps then the old ones because of the increased distance between natural and main (they can't juggle queens as easily between main and natural).
Finally last question, #3: - Do you think FFE style (for example what Ace showed at IEM) is better then this standard style if the maps allow it?
I've always found this standard style a bit weak on the classic easy to expo maps like LT, shattered temple, scrap station etc. Not only is FFE relatively easy on those maps, the (fake) pressure you can do is also much less on those maps because spine crawlers and 14 hatch work great on those. Overall it just seems this style should only be standard on the smaller and more difficult to expo maps such as metalopolis, xel naga etc.
Very helpful thread! I just have a question about transitions. Off three bases you can get a second robo and a DT shrine. But versus broodlords I find that archons/blink stalkers/collosus becomes pretty ineffecient if the zerg properly controls his army. Just wondering what other players experiences are on getting say two stargates instead, or even a templar archives. Seems like either of those would be quite good particularly a templar archives since VRs take a pretty long time to mass. Even without the amulet upgrade I think hts might be good.
On March 18 2011 21:36 Warrior Madness wrote: Very helpful thread! I just have a question about transitions. Off three bases you can get a second robo and a DT shrine. But versus broodlords I find that archons/blink stalkers/collosus becomes pretty ineffecient if the zerg properly controls his army. Just wondering what other players experiences are on getting say two stargates instead, or even a templar archives. Seems like either of those would be quite good particularly a templar archives since VRs take a pretty long time to mass. Even without the amulet upgrade I think hts might be good.
I always get a stargate on my 3rd because a) it defends you from ultralisks and b) it defends you from broodlords.
Also, it's an addition to the protoss deathball. Stargate is worth it, and you can get 3 if you want (to replenish faster).
Blink under broodlords, kill, colossi kills everything else, void rays provide huge dps from behind (try to upgrade air attack once you're on 3 bases and you get a a stargate).
Oh, and true story, once upon a time I got a 3rd base and got void rays. I killed the zerg army. All of a sudden, he reinforced with ultralisks from every direction, and my army was purely armored! Stalkers and colossi and dead sentries.
I don't see the 'new' style of mass banelingdrops being much of a problem for this strat. I think that strategy will be shortlived and the success hugely depends on it being new. The adoption neccesary is just the same that terran's had to do, learning to split your forces. Key to beating those baneling bombs is to avoid letting them hit your sentries imo, when the ovies come flying in you need to put up a FF wall immediately and then pull back your sentries. The stalkers can take some baneling hits and then you can blink them back.
The real problem if any for this strat is that more and more zerg are realizing that hydra's are a bad unit in general. Pure roach corruptor is most difficult to beat with this strat imo.
I watched the replay where u 6gated his mutalisk build, but why did you choose to do a 6gate in that game? Was it because he did that attack with those lings? I noticed you did not have hallucination, or robo, so i was just wondering, if they attack me with that kind of a zergling force, should i switch to 6gate?
I have some biiiiiig problems against mutaplay, it seems that when i try to use my blink stalkers, to buy me enough time to get storms, he just expands expands expands, and i have no idea how to handle mutas after the patch.
I'm having a lot of problems lately because 50%+ of the zergs are 2 base all-inning. But if I prepare for an all-in with cannons and a later expo then they can just drone up and roll me over with roach/hydra corrupter. You can't really scout if they go all-in because they can just pick-off any scouting probes with zerglings and because they can just pool larva and decide if they either build and army to kill you or gain a big eco advantage it's hard to really react to this.
I have been trying this build on ladder and have come against zergling/baneling busts alot just as i expand or just before (they contain me).
Does anyone have any tips in holding this off?? Its hard to hold off ALL banelings, if just one gets through and explodes, all my sentries/zealots are badly damaged!
Ugh with this build i still have problems transitioning into 6 gate against mutaling, getting up the 6 gate and enough units isnt the problem , its the stupid amount of spine crawlers they usually get usually when i go for a 6 gate push there will be something retarded like 10 spine crawlers up, even with the amount of units you get from a 6 gate push the few mutas they have and speedlings can easily clean it up with that many spines ive tried getting out immortals among other things, i just cant seem to deal with the massive amount of spines usually some are on the high ground and i cant even hit them, hmmm what i havent tried is just trying to walk up his ramp into his base to bypass most of the spines but the amount of free hits the spines will get as you do tihs + lings or queens blocking the ramp could prove to be difficult, any advice? ><
On April 09 2011 17:17 cheesemaster wrote: Ugh with this build i still have problems transitioning into 6 gate against mutaling, getting up the 6 gate and enough units isnt the problem , its the stupid amount of spine crawlers they usually get usually when i go for a 6 gate push there will be something retarded like 10 spine crawlers up, even with the amount of units you get from a 6 gate push the few mutas they have and speedlings can easily clean it up with that many spines ive tried getting out immortals among other things, i just cant seem to deal with the massive amount of spines usually some are on the high ground and i cant even hit them, hmmm what i havent tried is just trying to walk up his ramp into his base to bypass most of the spines but the amount of free hits the spines will get as you do tihs + lings or queens blocking the ramp could prove to be difficult, any advice? ><
i'm finding the same kind of problem playing standard, i think spotting the speedlings/spire alone isn't reason enough to decide to gateway-allin on 2 bases... a lot of the times you'll get crushed. i'm starting to avoid 2 base attacks all together vs zerg unless i've already dealt some damage and it's an absolute certainty. a lot of my losses are for moving in too far in around 10-11 min mark and losing my sentries.
and if i confirm he's pumping muta/ling, i think dropping 2 stargates and turtling until your 3rd is a better option than 6gate. you can control the map and put on pressure with phoenix much safer than with your valuable sentries.
On April 09 2011 17:17 cheesemaster wrote: Ugh with this build i still have problems transitioning into 6 gate against mutaling, getting up the 6 gate and enough units isnt the problem , its the stupid amount of spine crawlers they usually get usually when i go for a 6 gate push there will be something retarded like 10 spine crawlers up, even with the amount of units you get from a 6 gate push the few mutas they have and speedlings can easily clean it up with that many spines ive tried getting out immortals among other things, i just cant seem to deal with the massive amount of spines usually some are on the high ground and i cant even hit them, hmmm what i havent tried is just trying to walk up his ramp into his base to bypass most of the spines but the amount of free hits the spines will get as you do tihs + lings or queens blocking the ramp could prove to be difficult, any advice? ><
i'm finding the same kind of problem playing standard, i think spotting the speedlings/spire alone isn't reason enough to decide to gateway-allin on 2 bases... a lot of the times you'll get crushed. i'm starting to avoid 2 base attacks all together vs zerg unless i've already dealt some damage and it's an absolute certainty. a lot of my losses are for moving in too far in around 10-11 min mark and losing my sentries.
and if i confirm he's pumping muta/ling, i think dropping 2 stargates and turtling until your 3rd is a better option than 6gate. you can control the map and put on pressure with phoenix much safer than with your valuable sentries.
I don't think I've ever seen a phoenix response work vs mutas in a game with good players. Do you have any evidence?
On April 09 2011 17:17 cheesemaster wrote: Ugh with this build i still have problems transitioning into 6 gate against mutaling, getting up the 6 gate and enough units isnt the problem , its the stupid amount of spine crawlers they usually get usually when i go for a 6 gate push there will be something retarded like 10 spine crawlers up, even with the amount of units you get from a 6 gate push the few mutas they have and speedlings can easily clean it up with that many spines ive tried getting out immortals among other things, i just cant seem to deal with the massive amount of spines usually some are on the high ground and i cant even hit them, hmmm what i havent tried is just trying to walk up his ramp into his base to bypass most of the spines but the amount of free hits the spines will get as you do tihs + lings or queens blocking the ramp could prove to be difficult, any advice? ><
i'm finding the same kind of problem playing standard, i think spotting the speedlings/spire alone isn't reason enough to decide to gateway-allin on 2 bases... a lot of the times you'll get crushed. i'm starting to avoid 2 base attacks all together vs zerg unless i've already dealt some damage and it's an absolute certainty. a lot of my losses are for moving in too far in around 10-11 min mark and losing my sentries.
and if i confirm he's pumping muta/ling, i think dropping 2 stargates and turtling until your 3rd is a better option than 6gate. you can control the map and put on pressure with phoenix much safer than with your valuable sentries.
I don't think I've ever seen a phoenix response work vs mutas in a game with good players. Do you have any evidence?
Also, updating OP further.
Well, if you get phoenixes early or right after your nexus, you can get enough in time. However, infestors will ruin your day, but the phoenixes are really strong and can kill mutas quite easily when the phoenixes reach their own "critical mass".
Dropping 2 stargates ONCE you see a spire is usually an auto-lose from my own experiences.
On April 09 2011 17:17 cheesemaster wrote: Ugh with this build i still have problems transitioning into 6 gate against mutaling, getting up the 6 gate and enough units isnt the problem , its the stupid amount of spine crawlers they usually get usually when i go for a 6 gate push there will be something retarded like 10 spine crawlers up, even with the amount of units you get from a 6 gate push the few mutas they have and speedlings can easily clean it up with that many spines ive tried getting out immortals among other things, i just cant seem to deal with the massive amount of spines usually some are on the high ground and i cant even hit them, hmmm what i havent tried is just trying to walk up his ramp into his base to bypass most of the spines but the amount of free hits the spines will get as you do tihs + lings or queens blocking the ramp could prove to be difficult, any advice? ><
i'm finding the same kind of problem playing standard, i think spotting the speedlings/spire alone isn't reason enough to decide to gateway-allin on 2 bases... a lot of the times you'll get crushed. i'm starting to avoid 2 base attacks all together vs zerg unless i've already dealt some damage and it's an absolute certainty. a lot of my losses are for moving in too far in around 10-11 min mark and losing my sentries.
and if i confirm he's pumping muta/ling, i think dropping 2 stargates and turtling until your 3rd is a better option than 6gate. you can control the map and put on pressure with phoenix much safer than with your valuable sentries.
What I tend toward (for whatever it's worth) is, upon spotting spire and mass ling, head toward templar tech, researching blink along the way, add a couple cannons and delay the 3rd just a bit.
Follow-up I normally go into DT harass or warp prism harass, add colossi once 3rd gets up (3 or so colo + 4-6 templar is pretty solid against just about anything). Of course, this leads to turtle style, and has its vulnerabilities, but it's what I prefer over doing an all-in type of push. Of course, this can stress your gas pretty hard, so you end up being rather zealot or cannon heavy, which is why i tend toward warp prism + zealot drops...still kind of a work in progress.
On April 09 2011 17:17 cheesemaster wrote: Ugh with this build i still have problems transitioning into 6 gate against mutaling, getting up the 6 gate and enough units isnt the problem , its the stupid amount of spine crawlers they usually get usually when i go for a 6 gate push there will be something retarded like 10 spine crawlers up, even with the amount of units you get from a 6 gate push the few mutas they have and speedlings can easily clean it up with that many spines ive tried getting out immortals among other things, i just cant seem to deal with the massive amount of spines usually some are on the high ground and i cant even hit them, hmmm what i havent tried is just trying to walk up his ramp into his base to bypass most of the spines but the amount of free hits the spines will get as you do tihs + lings or queens blocking the ramp could prove to be difficult, any advice? ><
i'm finding the same kind of problem playing standard, i think spotting the speedlings/spire alone isn't reason enough to decide to gateway-allin on 2 bases... a lot of the times you'll get crushed. i'm starting to avoid 2 base attacks all together vs zerg unless i've already dealt some damage and it's an absolute certainty. a lot of my losses are for moving in too far in around 10-11 min mark and losing my sentries.
and if i confirm he's pumping muta/ling, i think dropping 2 stargates and turtling until your 3rd is a better option than 6gate. you can control the map and put on pressure with phoenix much safer than with your valuable sentries.
What I tend toward (for whatever it's worth) is, upon spotting spire and mass ling, head toward templar tech, researching blink along the way, add a couple cannons and delay the 3rd just a bit.
Follow-up I normally go into DT harass or warp prism harass, add colossi once 3rd gets up (3 or so colo + 4-6 templar is pretty solid against just about anything). Of course, this leads to turtle style, and has its vulnerabilities, but it's what I prefer over doing an all-in type of push. Of course, this can stress your gas pretty hard, so you end up being rather zealot or cannon heavy, which is why i tend toward warp prism + zealot drops...still kind of a work in progress.
Hey, I actually use hallucinations vs muta/ling. If it's too late to do the 6 gate, or I just don't have enough firepower, I hallucinate with ALL of my energy and have a crapload of hallucinated stalkers. These hallucinated stalkers tank A LOT of damage.
The thing is that, in that 17 seconds where the zerg can make overseers, you can destroy his base. Also, you can simply snipe the overseer and he'll have to morph another one or lose because of hallucinations.
So basically, if I scout too late (I have a replay of a zerg going proxy spire), I just attack with chronoed 3 gates + hallucinations.
It's basically a one-time use of a crapload of stalkers to protect your stalkers.
Been practicing this build and using it as a good guide against Terran MMM pushes.
One question I had after watching an oGSMC game (forgot which one exactly) was given that more n more Terrans are expecting Colossus and almost overproducing on the Vikings, is it easier to transition to High Templar?? If so, how would I transition (like the best time to start building twighlit etcc)....HT seem much more effective against MMM and also harder to counter too.
The OP says how during shark mode, we should build up more n more stalkers as we wait for 4 Colossus to make that push. I have had games where I tried to push in front of the zerg's base for some pressure with just a sentry/stalker army, with no intention of making a full-on attack but in the end got surrounded and smashed by roaches/hydra.
BUT i have had games where after watching the reply, I clearly had a much bigger economy (like 10-20probes more, same amount of bases) and bigger army and COULD have crushed them tehre and then, but instead, I just kept sharking around until 5 Colossus came, then pushed out...but by then he had brood lords and that was it...
So my question is basically....how do you know if you should just do an earlier push with mainly sentries/stalkers (before Colossus come out) or just wait an keep building up an army?? Should I just halluncinate?? Im afraid that even if Zerg has only 10roaches, and i push, then another 30 roaches pops up all of a sudden and crushes me!
On April 18 2011 09:38 bankai wrote: Had a question about applying this build:
The OP says how during shark mode, we should build up more n more stalkers as we wait for 4 Colossus to make that push. I have had games where I tried to push in front of the zerg's base for some pressure with just a sentry/stalker army, with no intention of making a full-on attack but in the end got surrounded and smashed by roaches/hydra.
BUT i have had games where after watching the reply, I clearly had a much bigger economy (like 10-20probes more, same amount of bases) and bigger army and COULD have crushed them tehre and then, but instead, I just kept sharking around until 5 Colossus came, then pushed out...but by then he had brood lords and that was it...
So my question is basically....how do you know if you should just do an earlier push with mainly sentries/stalkers (before Colossus come out) or just wait an keep building up an army?? Should I just halluncinate?? Im afraid that even if Zerg has only 10roaches, and i push, then another 30 roaches pops up all of a sudden and crushes me!
Get hallucination as an upgrade and ALWAYS ALWAYS use a pheonix to scout them out. And By always I mean every 2 minutes in game. With 10 sentries, spending 100 energy every minute or two is not a big deal but the most useful spell protoss has. You can scout whenever they are doing a tech switch and respond accordingly. If you see a spire starting to morph into a greater spire you can push in and do quite some damage or force them to not get broodlords as quickly as they want. You can also shut down expos that are starting to go up since you know where they are.
That is in my opinion the best response assuming you are macroing decently.
On April 18 2011 09:38 bankai wrote: Had a question about applying this build:
The OP says how during shark mode, we should build up more n more stalkers as we wait for 4 Colossus to make that push. I have had games where I tried to push in front of the zerg's base for some pressure with just a sentry/stalker army, with no intention of making a full-on attack but in the end got surrounded and smashed by roaches/hydra.
BUT i have had games where after watching the reply, I clearly had a much bigger economy (like 10-20probes more, same amount of bases) and bigger army and COULD have crushed them tehre and then, but instead, I just kept sharking around until 5 Colossus came, then pushed out...but by then he had brood lords and that was it...
So my question is basically....how do you know if you should just do an earlier push with mainly sentries/stalkers (before Colossus come out) or just wait an keep building up an army?? Should I just halluncinate?? Im afraid that even if Zerg has only 10roaches, and i push, then another 30 roaches pops up all of a sudden and crushes me!
Get hallucination as an upgrade and ALWAYS ALWAYS use a pheonix to scout them out. And By always I mean every 2 minutes in game. With 10 sentries, spending 100 energy every minute or two is not a big deal but the most useful spell protoss has. You can scout whenever they are doing a tech switch and respond accordingly. If you see a spire starting to morph into a greater spire you can push in and do quite some damage or force them to not get broodlords as quickly as they want. You can also shut down expos that are starting to go up since you know where they are.
That is in my opinion the best response assuming you are macroing decently.
Thanks a lot, will def have to incorporate Halluncination scouting mroe often. My problme is I use it but scout only once or twice to decide if they are going muta/ling or roach/hydra.
Is the most optimal time to research Hallu as your expansion goes up and after you buiild forge/4th gateway (assuming constant unit and probe production)?
I am playing a friend at masters lvl and having trouble with sling bling multiple queens with maybe infestors and teching fast to ultras. It's so hard to deal with drops so I try to not go robo as much to get blink out during mid game. Do you have any suggestions? or even replays. I also tried to get multiple cannons at my mineral line but that doesn't work too well. thx!
i talked to a zerg at masterlvl and if you open with 3 gate sentry fe you have and you scout sling/bling/infestor you have to finish with 6 gates +1 or do significant amount of dmg.
On April 25 2011 16:18 Trakky wrote: I am playing a friend at masters lvl and having trouble with sling bling multiple queens with maybe infestors and teching fast to ultras. It's so hard to deal with drops so I try to not go robo as much to get blink out during mid game. Do you have any suggestions? or even replays. I also tried to get multiple cannons at my mineral line but that doesn't work too well. thx!
i think blink stalkers/sentrys and inmortals to suck the banelings work fairly well vs this (if you did the build suggested in this guide you should have 8 sentrys and shouldn't need to produce more unless you have to replace some lost in battles), also blink can help you vs drops. You do all this while you get a third up (spending your extra minerals in zealots, the third nexus, pylons and cannons in your mineral lines and your third), after that, you should transition into zealot/archon/templar (archons in the front sucking up the banelings, zealots attack after the banelings are gone), feedback those infestors with the templars and storm the mass of lings/blings (if you stay with blink stalkers, you are gonna die to fungal and ling/bling surround really fast). You can start producing inmortals again in case of ultralisks for support or add blink stalkers again in case of brood lords, i think upgrades are really important along with force fields. Just gotta keep scouting with hallucinations or observers, also since he doesn't have mutalisks you can try to get a warp prism and drop zealots or use storm drops to buy you time to get a 4th base or as a distraction while you are pushing. I hope this helped ^^.
On May 04 2011 00:41 NTGKOA wrote: With the new patch 98% of Protoss players are going to have to use a new build. This is a great starting point.
Do you mean in regards to 3 gate sentry expand or something further down the line?
If the former, that build doesn't really change at all, the timings could be kept the exact same without much difference.
If the latter, you have to elaborate further beyond "new build" since 3 gate expand is still fine and safe. Or maybe you are referring to some kind of 2 gate build.
On May 09 2011 10:19 theFBI wrote: Great guide, looking forward to part 3 so I can learn some PVP and stop 4-gating.
You may be waiting a long time for that. Not only am I terrible at PvP, everything about the matchup will reset when the patch comes out. At that point it could return to mass colossus like it was before people discovered that 4 gate beats everything, or the archon could make DT builds incredibly powerful and make 3 gate robo + twilight the only build.
But if by some incredible miracle I do get good at PvP and understand the matchup, I will definitely make a part 3!
So I was toying around with ways to scout + defend against the roach/ling attack that leaves the zerg base around 7:00, and it seems that if you spend two chronoboosts on probes, and the the rest on warpgate followed immediately by hallucinate, you will get a hallu phoenix out in plenty of time to see if it's coming or not.
If you get hallucinate ASAP, that's 100 gas meaning 1 less sentry, so I figured instead of having an idle gateway I'd just build my nexus OR forge faster, nexus if he expands and is droning, forge if he is 1-basing or has a large group of speedlings before 6:00. After starting the nexus, build a forge (so you have the option to build cannons ASAP if he IS attacking), build the third gateway, and be prepared to build a 4th (5th? untested) gateway if your hallucinated phoenix see that he's pure droning with no defense. If he's roach/ling busting (your hallu should be alive in his base watching them hatch), immediately build 2-3 cannons and you are safe. If he's not, decide to either chrono probes, or lay down the extra gate(s) and chrono your warpgates to go attack him. Building a single cannon while you attack or getting +1 attack may be useful, but I haven't tested that.
If my opponet goes mass roaches , i just play defensive, try to grab my 4th, and try to get a 200/200 with Colossi and Void Rays , but i am only a Platin Player so better wait for a better player to answer that question ^^
Lately in platinum when I block their expo, they mass roach off one base and I can't hold it. What would you guys recommend for that? I usually block it while going 3-gate sentry expand, but can't hold roaches if he responds to me blocking his expo.
On May 10 2011 22:52 FederigoEU wrote: If my opponet goes mass roaches , i just play defensive, try to grab my 4th, and try to get a 200/200 with Colossi and Void Rays , but i am only a Platin Player so better wait for a better player to answer that question ^^
Thats basically what you do but I dont like the voidrays their gas cost really slows your production down unless you make zeaolts. I prefer straight stalkers instead of void rays with blink for the stalkers anyway .
Just a warning about trying this build now. When the OP was made it was before zerg had figured out their zergling roach all in. If they do this and you 3 gate fast expand you WILL die now. If you go 3 gate fe you need to disgue it or do something like Huk does, using dark templar to keep the zerg back before he gets his lair up.
On May 26 2011 11:53 AcrosstheSky wrote: Just a warning about trying this build now. When the OP was made it was before zerg had figured out their zergling roach all in. If they do this and you 3 gate fast expand you WILL die now. If you go 3 gate fe you need to disgue it or do something like Huk does, using dark templar to keep the zerg back before he gets his lair up.
I tried that today, even hid my DT tech, and the guy made a blind overseer and still beat me. That roach/ling all in is killing me, I really don't know what to do. I feel like winning with 3 gate expand at this point is just luck....
2gate expand and get the nexus, forge, and cannon(s) faster. You will add the 4th gateway at the same time as ever, the third will be delayed until after the forge but that's ok, you don't need it so fast anymore thanks to the reduced build time on sentries. By not wasting 150 minerals on an early gateway that will sit idle, you get the cannon(s) up in time to defend the roach/ling attack. You also start the nexus a few seconds faster, a nice little bonus.
If you like hallucinate you can start it ASAP after warp completes, then send out the hallucinated phoenix at the same time as you start your cannon(s). If you don't see roaches by the time the phoenix reaches his base, you can cancel the cannon(s) and use the money for a gateway or assimilators.
If you don't like hallucinate, you can still spend 100% of your gas income on sentries with just two gates, by using a single chronoboost on your first gateway. This is thanks to the reduced sentry build time.
Thanks man I will have to try that. Is there an official build order for that or do you just kind of play with it based loosely on the timings of the 3 gate sentry expand??
sharktopus-the thing with the dark templar is that if hes got an overseer then it means hes got a lair so his roach ling timing attack will be delayed enough so you won't straight up die to it anymore ^^.
On May 26 2011 15:38 AcrosstheSky wrote: sharktopus-the thing with the dark templar is that if hes got an overseer then it means hes got a lair so his roach ling timing attack will be delayed enough so you won't straight up die to it anymore ^^.
You can find a lot of valuable Informations out of that thread, including advice by Minigun and a like.
My opinion on that topic still remains:
I met Roach/Ling-Allins quite often on the ladder and I'm 3Gate-Sentry-Expanding every game (~1000 Points ML).
In my opinion its still doable under certain circumstances. Those are: Dropping a Forge and a 4th Gateway while your nexus is building, going up to 8 Sentries ASAP and getting some Stalkers afterwards combined with one cannon close to your nexus (You need that to be safe against Burrowpushes anyway).
Now to the important stuff:
First you aren't as blind as a lot of people try to put it - in fact, most of the time getting mapcontrol is as easy as warping in a second zealot and walk up to the Xel-Naga-Towers. Two possibilites:
1.you clean up his scout ling(s) and can proceed to walk up to his base, checking his saturation or how much units he has (Thats why you need 2 btw, because 1 could die to 4 zerglings)
2. He kills two Zealots which requires more zerglings than a zerg would regularly build - guess what could happen
Second: When you realize that all-in is coming - DONT GET MORE STALKERS. I made that mistake for a long time but in fact Zealots are far better in smaller numbers when their prey cant run from them and roaches are neither quick nor big in numbers for this push.
Third: Stay close to your buildings. You have a lot of FFs at your disposal but its still important to use them wisely. I crushed a lot of those pushes without losing a single unit by trapping the roaches close to my buildings with 3 FFs and killing them from afar.
Basically the defense of the push consists of two things: killing the roaches (unimportant) and killing the speedlings (important). The roaches only exist to bait your units out in the open where the speedlings can do the job - as soon as the speedlings are dead you can easily surround the roaches with FFs and finish them off.
But because of that dynamic you have to wait until he sacrifices his Speedlings in any way - if that means that its neccessary to let him take down a pylon/Gate/your Forge then fine - let him get that building, wait for him to stream his speedlings in and place the nail in the coffin - if hes not doing that you are fine as well for obvious reasons.
And as with every Cheese: Stay calm! Don't forget to get pylons (Including the ones that the Zerg could kill), warp-in your units and eventually get some additional cannons if you're stockpiling minerals because of the situation anyway.
tl;dr-Version:
* Get a Forge and a Gateway while expanding * Use a group of two zealots to scout * If the all-in is coming stall your Stalkerproduktion, pump out zealots * Stay close to your buildings * Utilize your buildings/FFs to trap speedlings and be able to kill them * Stay calm and sharp - don't forget to do what you need to win * Be patient, don't go out in the open until you are sure that there's no mob of speedlings waiting for you
On June 07 2011 21:05 spawnferkel wrote: how to respond if he steal my second gas ?
1,1k ML P
Get a couple more zealots out and use them to scout the map when you already have them. If you scout something all-inish like the Roach-Timing-Attack with that then get down couple more cannons at your expo to make up for the lack of gas units.
On top of that get the gas at your expansion quicker, thats really all about it, don't panic
Can someone be so kind and post replay doing that 2 Zealot trick(I know you use it for scout, but just want to see image) , and afterall 3gate sentry expand after warpgate nerf?
I have problems that I stockpile a lot minerals lately before expanding, so I am forced to expand while I have 1 zealot and 3 sentries only.
I simply don't have that much gas for 6-7-8 sentires.
On June 25 2011 07:17 CardinalSC wrote: What is the general timing of when the expansion should go down and when that pressure push around 10 minutes usually comes out? (Shark mode).
Edit: Game time not relative times
Visit sc2rep.com -> download pvz replay -> figure out timing.
On May 26 2011 14:19 Keilah wrote: 2gate expand and get the nexus, forge, and cannon(s) faster. You will add the 4th gateway at the same time as ever, the third will be delayed until after the forge but that's ok, you don't need it so fast anymore thanks to the reduced build time on sentries. By not wasting 150 minerals on an early gateway that will sit idle, you get the cannon(s) up in time to defend the roach/ling attack. You also start the nexus a few seconds faster, a nice little bonus.
If you like hallucinate you can start it ASAP after warp completes, then send out the hallucinated phoenix at the same time as you start your cannon(s). If you don't see roaches by the time the phoenix reaches his base, you can cancel the cannon(s) and use the money for a gateway or assimilators.
If you don't like hallucinate, you can still spend 100% of your gas income on sentries with just two gates, by using a single chronoboost on your first gateway. This is thanks to the reduced sentry build time.
I want to echo this. I have actually been using a hallu first 2gate forge expand, and ever since I've started using this build I simply have NEVER lost to a roach-ling all-in, so long as i made my simcity properly and scouted with hallucination correctly, and to show an example I have some replays just to demonstrate how easily I survive and how badly the zerg gets manhandled upon a counterattack:
game 1: I want to be critical of some mistakes I made that would have made this even easier for me to defend, because you'll see I got a little bit flustered but was able to hold him off anyway.
I always get a 2nd pylon here to accompany the cannon, as the roaches focus firing down the pylon is basically the first thing the zerg is going to try to do. If I had done that, he would have lost a lot more units at this initial engagement as I would have had much earlier stalker warp-ins and could chase him out while killing off roaches. But nevertheless, he still gets his worker count decimated when I attack the first time, and the second time I have 1-1 with 6gates as he's trying to catch up.
game 2: My simcity was faulty here and I should have been able to hang on without the fifth gateway (I only get a fifth gateway on xelnaga caverns where you have to stretch extremely far out for a wall-off), but regardless it doesn't seem to affect the match very much. You could make the argument that he should have run speedlings to my sentries a lot earlier than he did, but I was staying near my ramp just in case this happened so that I could use a minimal number of forcefields to completely seal him off of my army before my stalker warp-ins came out.
Rules I follow:
1) 2gas before core to allow myself to have 200 gas right when the core pops, for both hallu and sentry 2) chronoboost sentries constantly for completely smooth gas usage, utilizing every single vespene cleanly 3) simcity at the natural requires a gateway wall without pylons - variations of this build that include getting the forge at the natural are OK, but the most important part is that you DO NOT use a pylon for surface area even though it seems convenient 4) i wait on the additional gateways and cannons as i scout with the hallu; if i see the roach-ling all-in coming it's required that i lay down the cannon BEFORE surrounding it with gateways, as warpgate won't quite finish before he arrives (it usually happens at the same time) and having a gateway wall to shield my cannon from zerglings far outweighs having the additional gateways up a little sooner
the most important part about surviving roach-ling all-ins revolves around key forcefield usage. if some of your forcefields aren't helpful or are wasted, you will probably lose. the way i play this out gives me EXTREMELY efficient usage of forcefields. zerg wants to focus fire your pylon down to cause you to lose power to buildings AND to open another attack path, which you will be forced to use forcefields over - which means fewer forcefields to block off zerglings. a pylonless wall prevents this situation, and the importance of this cannot be overstated. i still see a lot of pros manage to hold off roach-lings with a pylon in the wall, but it's dangerous and on a map like xelnaga caverns i don't think it's possible.
also, on any map with medium-close'ish spawns it's very important to scout the zerg's expansion location right around the 4:30 minute mark to scout for the 1-base roach-ling all-in, which is extremely weak to 3wg expand but will easily beat a 2gate forge expand. if you scout that you should just cancel hallu and chrono the shit out of WG research while getting 3 more gateways without cutting probes; you'll have 4sentries to perma forcefield your ramp so you should just be patient and let your gateways and economy manifest. you usually need to pump a few stalkers from gateways prior to WG finishing if this is the case since WG is delayed. the importance of identifying the 1-base play and switching gears (edit) also cannot be overstated.
edit: regardless of whether better players determine that my style especially with hallu-first is not viable, i wanna shoutout to travis for giving me a reason to come up with this build and optimize it i had been literally devastated by roach-ling all-ins before he made his thread about 2gate forge expand (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223087), and when he made the post i gave it a good long deliberation and worked on this
the only thing bad about this build is the crucial third can be hard to take on some maps.
EDIT: also it is too risky to put on early pressure and some zergs might sneak in a third and whore up on drones and make it really hard for you.
EDIT2: I think it is better these days to try scout for that sneaky early third and just go for a 2 base push to kill the zerg.
EDIT3: like lots of others have mentioned must prepare for roach ling all in. but that would just set you behind. its better to sneak a probe out at 5 min to scout and drop earlier robo/stargate/watever
I know there was a warning of not bumping if i dont have a valid reason but I do. Being that this was made in February and given all the patch notes and the extinction of the protoss death ball (stalker colossus, from what im told) is this thread even worth paying much attention since the game has changed to much ZvP? Is this still worth following? thanks
On September 16 2011 04:22 Legen wrote: I know there was a warning of not bumping if i dont have a valid reason but I do. Being that this was made in February and given all the patch notes and the extinction of the protoss death ball (stalker colossus, from what im told) is this thread even worth paying much attention since the game has changed to much ZvP? Is this still worth following? thanks
I have seen a number of pros going 3-gate-sentry-expand of late on their streams. I've seen both Puzzle and Sase using 3-gate and having some success pressuring as their Nexus comes online.It seemed to fall out of fashion for awhile as FFEs on lots of maps (including Metal and Shattered) and 1-gate FE were popular.
For myself, in lowly mid/high diamond, I don't find 3-gate pressure to be very effective as a lot of Z make early units (lots of lings) instead of droning hard like so many pros. ISTime has a build for a 2-gate expand which is pretty solid.
On September 16 2011 04:22 Legen wrote: I know there was a warning of not bumping if i dont have a valid reason but I do. Being that this was made in February and given all the patch notes and the extinction of the protoss death ball (stalker colossus, from what im told) is this thread even worth paying much attention since the game has changed to much ZvP? Is this still worth following? thanks
The opening is still ok, but the "Let's see if I can attack there"-style absolutely gets destroyed by a single Infestor catching 3Sentrys and3Stalkers. Even Blink and ForceFields aren't going to help you then, you just lost. Just scout if he goes for Infestors (Hallucination/Observer). If he does, get Colossus as fast as possible. If he doesn't you are facing MutaLing which forces you to defend in your own base anyways, so there's no chance for you to poke.
The WarpPrism is going to get used more and more often though. IMO the new PvZ style is to turtle a bit but still try to harrass as much as possible and then go for a stronger army (Good upgraded 200/200 Stalker Colossus is still going to win against everything but Infestor/Broodlords) while expanding safely.
On September 16 2011 04:22 Legen wrote: I know there was a warning of not bumping if i dont have a valid reason but I do. Being that this was made in February and given all the patch notes and the extinction of the protoss death ball (stalker colossus, from what im told) is this thread even worth paying much attention since the game has changed to much ZvP? Is this still worth following? thanks
The opening is still ok, but the "Let's see if I can attack there"-style absolutely gets destroyed by a single Infestor catching 3Sentrys and3Stalkers. Even Blink and ForceFields aren't going to help you then, you just lost. Just scout if he goes for Infestors (Hallucination/Observer). If he does, get Colossus as fast as possible. If he doesn't you are facing MutaLing which forces you to defend in your own base anyways, so there's no chance for you to poke.
The WarpPrism is going to get used more and more often though. IMO the new PvZ style is to turtle a bit but still try to harrass as much as possible and then go for a stronger army (Good upgraded 200/200 Stalker Colossus is still going to win against everything but Infestor/Broodlords) while expanding safely.
On September 16 2011 04:22 Legen wrote: I know there was a warning of not bumping if i dont have a valid reason but I do. Being that this was made in February and given all the patch notes and the extinction of the protoss death ball (stalker colossus, from what im told) is this thread even worth paying much attention since the game has changed to much ZvP? Is this still worth following? thanks
The opening is still ok, but the "Let's see if I can attack there"-style absolutely gets destroyed by a single Infestor catching 3Sentrys and3Stalkers. Even Blink and ForceFields aren't going to help you then, you just lost. Just scout if he goes for Infestors (Hallucination/Observer). If he does, get Colossus as fast as possible. If he doesn't you are facing MutaLing which forces you to defend in your own base anyways, so there's no chance for you to poke.
The WarpPrism is going to get used more and more often though. IMO the new PvZ style is to turtle a bit but still try to harrass as much as possible and then go for a stronger army (Good upgraded 200/200 Stalker Colossus is still going to win against everything but Infestor/Broodlords) while expanding safely.
Yes but everyone goes infestor broodlords now :/
Yeah just go and attack them as soon as you see Corrupters spawning. At that point their army will be weakend by about 20 supply which can be enough for you to straight up kill everything if you control perfectly.
Archons are good as well, just dont let them all get Fungald! I also tried to add StarGate + 3 Voidrays a couple of times. Voidrays coming from another direction against a no anti-air army is really funny ^^
e: How to know when they add BroodLords -Greater Spire (^^) -Wasting units on your mainball (good zergs are going to drop them somewhere) -First time they use larva after a long period of time
Having an observer around a Hatchery can be super awesome, because when you see your opponent reinforcing with "weak" units like Zerglings/Roaches you can just go an defend while getting the tech heavier army!
On October 28 2011 22:43 Huckle wrote: Where is the best place to place the cannon? I'm assuming the forge and gateway are used to wall off the ramp of your main or natural, right?
I've been using this build for a couple months now, and I like putting the cannon where it can fire upon both my expo's mineral line and shoot out to the front, less for blocking. Often if the zerg is smart he'll try to run some lings in as you leave, if the map is decent for it, just that cannon with a+clicking your probes will defend a handful of lings. If your expo is wide open though, either put up a second cannon, or if you fear he'll use ALOT of lings to sneak in as you're sharking, put up a gateway as you leave to complete the wall off, like you're closing the door. I forget who I saw do it, but I've seen some pros put an extra pylon or cannon or both behind their nat mineral line, also to work as a block so that there was only one path through, which involved going between or by 2 cannons.
The build and the ideas may be still valid, but the credentials are a bit outdated I would say. Incontrol is far from being one of the best PvZers on the planet nowadays.
So... who would be a good example of a good PvZ? HuK? He says it's his worst matchup, but he's quite good at it. Sage? JYP? HerO maybe, he's fairly consistent in PvZ and his play often revolves around warpprisms.
I feel like the ideas and the builds behind a standard PvZ are fairly simple (more than in PvT) but micro is actually the deciding factor. One bad forcefield or blink, and you're swarmed by infinite amounts of roaches.
This entire thread is outdated simply because it was written in the time before the (Unnecessary) warpgate nerf.
Nothing you do feels as effective anymore. And once you do get the collosus you can't really be as aggressive and still be safe because of infestors. This was written before anyone used banelings OR infestors and just sat on 200/200 roaches until they lost.
Until someone completely reworks and updates the thread so it is valid in November 2011 then people looking here for a guide are better off doing whatever they were before. Sure, you will definitely win games (PS you can win games as well with 2 base mass cannon 5 stargate pheonix screw you gas) with this out of date strategy but if iNcontroL did this vs IdrA today he would get raped.
On October 29 2011 23:41 Geovu wrote: This entire thread is outdated simply because it was written in the time before the (Unnecessary) warpgate nerf.
Nothing you do feels as effective anymore. And once you do get the collosus you can't really be as aggressive and still be safe because of infestors. This was written before anyone used banelings OR infestors and just sat on 200/200 roaches until they lost.
Until someone completely reworks and updates the thread so it is valid in November 2011 then people looking here for a guide are better off doing whatever they were before. Sure, you will definitely win games (PS you can win games as well with 2 base mass cannon 5 stargate pheonix screw you gas) with this out of date strategy but if iNcontroL did this vs IdrA today he would get raped.
I agree, though on Xel Naga I think this strat is still OK since you cannot FFE.
On all other maps I feel FFE is best. 1 Gate possible.
Edit: Thought a bit more about it. I feel like this is still a great strat for people who are relatively new and just look for a way to play PvZ. it teaches to macro while constantly doing something with your army etc.
On October 28 2011 22:43 Huckle wrote: Where is the best place to place the cannon? I'm assuming the forge and gateway are used to wall off the ramp of your main or natural, right?
You want your first cannon directly nehind your forge (and gateway), with no space inbetween.
On maps without a full wall (such as metal), you want a second cannon to cover your mineral line.
Great post! I've been looking to get back into Protoss and I found this very informative. I want to play standard as to learn good habits in place of getting really good at assorted cheeses.
However, as the post hasn't been updated in 11 months, is it safe to assume that all the information is still current becuase is listed in the recommended strats for PvZ? I imagine it's still true at the core, but I wanted to know if there had been any recent developments in the metagame I should be looking out for. I read in some of the comments that HuK or HerO might have better ideas. Are there other standard guides I should be looking for? We noobs would love a little direction on this matter.
The matchup has changed a good deal actually; currently forge expand builds are far more popular than gateway expands, and protoss has to account of more things from zerg.
It's funny this thread gets bumped as I am deciding to go back to this build after going for FFE's for so long now.
Nony recently talked about his distaste for forge expand builds, and how they often get the protoss stuck in a situation of 120 supply vs 200 supply. The meta shifted away from these 3 gate expo builds and into FFE builds for faster econ, but zergs now know that Forge expand builds are just a ticket for them to drone to their heart's desire for ATLEAST minutes. When a smart zerg sees you forge expanding, he knows the limited followups you have to it, and can handle all of them without much deviation from his route.
Thus I am going back into more 3gate expo, or atleast 1gate expo builds,which in my opinion can still have 6 gate pushes just as powerful as FFE builds, but gets your tech faster, so that if you want to, after "sharking" as in this build (which is a wonderful thing), your robo or templar tech are faster than FFE builds, due to getting your core out at a standard pace rather than delayed with FFE's.
In my limited time since going back to this build, I'm still experimenting with followups, how to pressure, etc. But it seems to have more options and be much less predictable, as well as getting to your various tech paths much faster.