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Zerg vs Protoss : Upgrade centric style.
A style of ZvP that lets you comfortably get into +2 baneling drops.
Flowchart below, credits and thanks go to Funkomatic + Show Spoiler [Flowchart of the guide] +
Introduction The philosophy behind this style is that if you entered the lategame in ZvP, you have probably already lost. A good protoss on 4 bases has litterally everything on his fingertips. From massive amount of gateways, to a collosus voidray ball, or to a big immortal sentry high templar ball. Meanwhile, the zerg options in this phase dwindle. Roaches aren't as effective anymore, hydra's die sooner than banelings do, zerglings get their legs set on fire and mutalisks get blunk.
So with this mindset in mind, we focus on the mid and early game strength. Believe it or not, earlygame and midgame protoss and zerg are very similar in strength. The protoss has the advantage of strength in quality, a shorter reinforcement path and a variety of ways to zone armies. While the zerg has the advantage in sheer numbers of units, vision, unit speed and quickly rebuilt armies.
The build I use is getting a quick evolution chamber after expanding. Then getting a quick +1 melee upgrade for your zerglings. This clears the way for the +2 melee upgrade, which will help in the baneling bomb transition.
That wraps up this introduction. Onto the content.
-------------------------------------------Build------------------------------------------- The build starts off with a 14 gas, 14 pool. Once your pool finishes, build one set of zerglings, then get the queen and metabolic boost. Send the zerglings to your natural to attack the possible probe hanging out there, then expand. After you expanded successfully, put down an evolution chamber and make drones until 26 supply. Once the evolution chamber finishes, get the +1 melee attack.
For those who like the numbers:
9 Overlord ( optional, but advised dronescout on 12 ) 14 gas 14 pool Around 70 gas, take one drone off of gas. 16 overlord 1 set of zerglings , rally to natural Zergling speed Queen 19 drone , rally to natural 20 Expand. 19 Evolution chamber Drones until 22 22 overlord @Evolution chamber finishing, +1 melee Drones until 26 Lings until you're relatively sure what the protoss is up to Lair when you feel safe @+1 melee finishing, +1 range and roachwarren
---------------------------------------Earlygame ( Holding vs one base )---------------------------------------
The ZvP early game hinges on scouting. Everything you do rests on your knowledge and the read on your opponent. For this reason I love drone scouting. Knowing where your opponent has spawned while seeing if he is going for a forge first or a gateway first is so critical and helpful. So I don't mind losing whatever minerals of mining time if I can scout a cannon rush or a proxy gate in time.
If you scout a onebaser ( aka no fast expand w/ forge ) we will get +1 melee for our zerglings no matter what. And since we want to get zergling speed AND that upgrade fast, we will go for a 14 gas 14 pool build. Taking a drone off of gas will ensure that you won't have a massive surplus of gas when the evolution chamber finishes.
If you love going 15 hatch or 14 pool 16 hatch, ditch that if you want to go for this build. If you don't get the gas this 'early' the +1 upgrade will miss its timing against most 1base protoss pushes.
One set of zerglings to kill the probe that blocks our expansion and expand right after. Build the evolution chamber after expanding. If he pylon blocks your expansion, get a round of drones and your evolution chamber up. Once the pylon dies you'll have enough minerals to build the hatchery again.
Scout the front of the base with the lings, make sure they don't get sniped before you have some good intel. Knowing what unit comes out second is one of the single most important thing to scout in ZvP.
These are the things to look out for in descending order of importance: 1. Energy on the nexus 2. Second unit from the gateway 3. Gas 4. Chrono on warpgate research
Below are the builds that are most common and the responses to them. Including the things to look for in scouting.
Onebase plays
Stalker/zealot 'mongoloid' 4gate. + Show Spoiler +All Chrono saved – one gas – Chronoing cyber core Once you scout this, or feel like it is coming, scout using your lings all throughout your main base and natural. Look at all the hiding places! There is a pylon somewhere and if you don't find it soon enough he will have a reinforcing point. Meanwhile, when you're absolutely certain that you're facing the stalker zealot 4gate. Put down a baneling nest. Build nothing but zerglings and put max drones back on gas. The +1 will help both your zerglings and your banelings if it has enough time to finish. Which won't be in time for the first warp in round. Let him attack the natural if neccesairy, poke in and out occasionally but don't engage until you have banelings up or your +1 has finished. Move the banelings in while attacking with the zerglings. If your zerglings get hit by the zealots, retreat and let the banelings blow up on the zealots. After the zealots are badly hurt/dead, surround the ball as much as you can and crush through. Kill the warp in pylon and now, you can delay his natural as long as possible. The game is pretty much over for him then, the only way to come back is some techswitch to something cheesy, so prepare for voids/DTs/onebase collosus (lol) and you'll be perfectly fine. Regular 4gate. + Show Spoiler +Some chrono saved – Second unit stalker – Chronoing cyber core – one gas. With this build, your lings will have a good advantage over his units due to the upgrade. Since you will want mostly speedlings, all of your units will basically be 20% more effective. To put this in perspective, its basically like you can surround a zealot with 6 lings instead of 5. Actively scout for pylons, keep a ling at each watchtower and keep some lings at his ramp to catch leaving probes. The pylon is the lifeline for his build. If you can't find it in time, keep your lings back a bit, but NEVER in your main. Keep a queen at the natural instead of the main. Because having ramps forcefielded means you'll die, regardless of what build you went, if most of your forces are in your main/come from your main. Try to catch his army in the open. Your speedlings need a surround to do good damage. Don't engage with a lot of forcefields up, no matter how small his army is. He WILL be more cost effective in the engagement, and you want to keep his effeciency as low as possible with every engagement in ZvP. If he hangs around in his base, or he is building up forces for a long time, build some spinecrawlers. His sentries will build up a large amount of energy, which isn't good for your zerglings or queens. In this case, spinecrawlers will make it easier for you to stay alive. Because unlike roaches, banelings, zerglings and queens, spinecrawlers cannot be forced away from the protoss or get put in a position where a stalker outranges it. Make roaches once the tech goes online and if you have the gas and minerals to support it. And make sure you don't lose most of your lings to forcefields ( which is easy to do, don't let them catch you ). Once you fended off the 4gate, macro up and continiue your normal game. You can usually get +2 range attack and go for a roach or roach hydra bust to punish his weaker tech and economy. 3gate 1stargate voidray push+ Show Spoiler + Some chrono saved – two gas – stalker as second unit – No constant chrono on warpgate
You play this out like a regular 4 gate, except you constantly make queens from both of your hatcheries. Having 4 or 5 will do the trick easily. Also, put down a sporecrawler at your natural choke.
His ground army will be more flimsy than usual, less sentries because the voidrays gobble up the gas, so a much easier surround for you. Make sure the queens attack the voidrays and when you engage, select all your queens and transfuse the weakened ones as needed. The lings should be enough to overpower the smaller gateway army with added support of queens, and the voidrays will simply die to the queens range and health.
Carry on after you crushed his force. Get +2 range attack and go for a roach or roach hydra bust.
Dark templar into 4 gate+ Show Spoiler +No chrono saved – two gas – Stalker as second unit – Next to no chrono on warpgate. These are telltale signs of a darktemplar rush in the making. Since the protoss can't chrono buildings to make them build faster, and the only thing that you wouldn't want to chrono out as fast as possible is dark templar. Since you can't speed up the tech, nor would it matter if he got the warpgate done a minute earlier than he could warp in DT's. Scout your whole main for proxy pylons, make sure there isn't ANY in your main since your lair is so delayed. Put down a sporecrawler at your natural ramp and keep most of your lings near your ramp ready to hold position. You don't want the templar to go out of sight range. Once you spot the templar, build an additional spore in your main just in case he does manage to slip by. You really don't want to lose to one unit sniping your lair and your evo chamber. Any further tech he is planning will be way behind, even a 4gate after this would be super lackluster, and you can easily crush it with lots of lings. Keep mapcontroll and drone up. Uncertain one base tech
This is the toughest one to prepare for. Since you can't really go all out in one direction. Continiue as normal, build up a good amount of lings and drone very very little. Put a sporecrawler at your natural ramp and make sure you have 3 queens.
Actively scout his ramp for his unit composition, if you can see clues or even specific units you can go all out on one counter-path.
Make sure you stay alive, you will have more income than your protoss opponent on one base. Droning isn't as important now. You can drone later after you fended off his push.
Expand builds Forge fast-expand + Show Spoiler +Keep an eye out for his probe. You don't want his expand to turn into a cannon rush. Keep one drone following his scouting probe at all times and if you're uncertain, scout your main and natural for a proxy pylon. If he gets a cannon building, attack it with 4 drones. It won't get up in time to get a shot off on those drones and you're minimizing mining time lost. Once you kill of the scouting probe, you will want to get the gas in your main up asap and drone up. Tech to lair while not researching +1 melee just yet. When your natural finishes, build one extractor and fill it up with drones. Once lair finishes, build a spire. Since he went forge first, his warpgate tech WILL be delayed. This means that the usual 6gate timing that kills mutalisks is delayed by a ton. Giving you time to build up muta's ( around 8 ) and then attack his flimsy army head on, focussing on the sentries. If that is too strong for the while focus on killing pylons that power gateways or the cybercore. If he decided to get a quick stargate after expanding, get a couple of corruptors ( 2 or 3 ) to tank for the phoenixes. Meanwhile, take the last gas at your natural and get +1 range for your roaches. Take a quick third and build up drones at your natural. Make sure you build sufficient amounts of roaches while you macro and harrass with your mutalisks. He will want to make a counter attack, since the muta's are pinning him to 2 bases. So prepare for that. Get +1 melee once the range upgrade finishes and build a second evo chamber to get +2 range sooner should you want that. 3gate expand + Show Spoiler +Two gas – Chrono saved up/used on warpgates – Second and third unit sentry Your lings can't break his front, but they can pressure the nexus. Attack the nexus occasionally on the opposite side from his ramp. But DON'T overcommit. You don't want to have the nexus at 50 hp with all your lings dead. You need them as ensurrance. Drone up your natural and tech as normal.
------------------------Midgame ( Post-lair tech, 2 bases up for the protoss )------------------------
Now that you've safely entered the midgame, we've entered the strongest period for this build. The goal in this period is to get overlord speed and scout what he is doing. Meanwhile, you have two options regarding upgrades.
The hydra/roach path ( + 2 range attack ) The banelingdrop route ( + 2 melee attack )
There are specific situations in which you would want a hydra/roach army, or a mainly roach/ling/baneling army. Lets look at the hydra/roach one first.
Hydralisk / Roach
Once you scout that you can beat the protoss head on, you can start getting the +2 range attack and a hydra den. Make sure your creepspread is optimal for this to have good chances of working. A couple of textbook signs that you can engage the protoss. A robo facility, but no bay. Aka, no collosus for some time Stargate/gateway composition Just gateway composition without templar
These armies aren't strong against the hydra/roach ball. They aren't backed up by a big splash unit like the high templar or the collosus, so if you keep the hydras behind the tanking roaches, your army will have a field day on him. When you engage, keep reinforcing. Inject your hatches during the fight since there isn't much to micro besides the occasional focusfire. Reinforce with roaches, they will arrive at the battle more quickly and if things do turn out to be sour, you can retreat and fall back to the +2 melee option.
Roach / Speedling / Banelingdrop
So you've scouted that your protoss opponent turned out to be a jackass. Instead of GG-ing when he saw you in the openingscreen, he decided to macro up and get collosus ( where does this kid get the nerve to stay in this game? Lets complain about it on TL ). While grabbing your list of profanties that you probably want to type in all caps to him, do the following.
Since we already got +1 melee, we can start +2 melee. Get a third, get overlord drop and a banelingsnest. Make a couple of overlords while rallying lings underneath them. We are going baneling-bombing t'night. “Well gee, couldn't I have just saved me the trouble and just gone straight for baneling drops? Why would I get the melee upgrades, they don't even upgrade my roaches!”
The thing about baneling drops is, they are a one time blow. You can't counter attack with baneling drops. You can't pick off retreating units with baneling drops. You want to blow them up on their army or their probe line. And THAT is where the +2 melee comes in.
You see, +2 melee banelings 1 shot probes, and 2shot sentries. You can harrass with baneling drops if the protoss is turtling way too much, forcing a counter attack on him.
When you see the protoss ball moving in, position your overlords near your roaches. Engage with the roaches and force some forcefields out, meanwhile, drop the banelings onto the sentries and gateway units. The gateway army will die pretty brutally if you drop enough banelings onto the sentries. And since overlords are quicker than sentries, they won't be able to escape the aciddic death from above.
Now that the main protoss ball is withered down, your chances of survival have pretty much skyrocketed. It takes a long time for protoss to build up their deathball. Meanwhile, since they are on 3 bases now, you can actually start to abuse drops and multi pronged attacks to wither the protoss down. Get the carapace upgrades and +2 range upgrade when your +2 melee finishes.
If you let the protoss sit on 4 bases comfortably without harrass or multi pronged engagements, you are the one that is killing yourself. Get those actions up and show him some real pain.
If you want to know more about baneling drops, I suggest glancing over my previous guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185099
Specific reactions: 6gate – 5gate robo + Show Spoiler +When you see this build, its better to build some spinecrawlers at your natural. The forcefields will be a thorn in your feet for your roaches and lings. You have to keep your roaches and lings outside of your natural. Just so that the protoss cannot forcefield you out. Even though by this point in time, the protoss forcefields that are saved could stop the moon from spinning, they will run out after 2 or 3 engagements. So you have to attack twice before the protoss hits your natural. Trade some roaches or lings for sentry energy. Image added because it looked cool Commit to the engagement as soon as the protoss attacks into your natural spinecrawlers. Just keep on reinforcing and focus the sentries/immortals. If you spot a bunch of stalkers just hanging around near your main, keep your roachball inside your main. There is a possibility that he has blink. Be sure not to wander too far from the ramp though, you don't want to be forcefielded in. +1 roaches will be pretty costeffective versus stalkers, much more so than un-upgraded roaches. If he retreats with a large army, don't hunt him down. He wants to pull you out of position while he is retreating, so he can kill off a large amount of roaches. Just let him get away and saturate your third, or prepare for the baneling bombs. If he retreats with a small army, well, who am I to tell you to stop killing it? If you're at his doorstep, make sure you do economical damage. Either by sniping his third, or by killing off probes. This will ensure your survival.
-------------------------------------------Replays-------------------------------------------
All of these replays are of me winning. This is to show how to do it, not to show you how to die to a timing attack. I will try to index them as much as possible, but no garrentees.
Forge first ( or any combination with a forge before cybernetics core ). http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144470-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/145893-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk
Onebase plays http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144466-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/145942-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns new-> http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155303-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch new-> http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155305-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis new-> http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155307-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
Onebase stargates ( there are some stargate replays above too ). new-> http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155309-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk new-> http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155310-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
Twobase plays http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144480-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146596-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk new-> http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155300-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis new-> http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155302-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Lategame situations http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144468-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144472-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144474-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144476-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144478-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144482-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-temple http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144483-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-temple http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/145941-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk
Collosus-voidray 2base deathball http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144471-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-temple
Closing words and poll
Thank you for those who took the time to read this. I've been developping my style all the time in ZvP and this is where I'm currently at. My winrate has been steadily increasing ( although its not near as high as I want it to be, then again, I'm quite ambitious on that ).
I hope you take the time to practice this style once. Get a practice partner and have some fun, maybe you like it and it will enrich you experience, or maybe you won't and you can PM me that I suck and all that. I just want you to experience the raw strength and fun that +2 banelings give in ZvP, even if you do not post, just try it out.
Now for the readers poll ( this is just for my own interrest I want to see where people win the most )
Poll: In ZvP, when do you most often win?Winning....versus... protoss? (123) 53% After the onebase push ( 4gate, DT rush ) (33) 14% Lategame ( I can take the deathball, bring it! ) (23) 10% Early game before his push ( 7 pool , roach rush ) (20) 9% After the two base push (19) 8% versus Forge first expands (9) 4% During the protoss 3gate sentry expanding (6) 3% 233 total votes Your vote: In ZvP, when do you most often win? (Vote): Early game before his push ( 7 pool , roach rush ) (Vote): After the onebase push ( 4gate, DT rush ) (Vote): During the protoss 3gate sentry expanding (Vote): versus Forge first expands (Vote): After the two base push (Vote): Lategame ( I can take the deathball, bring it! ) (Vote): Winning....versus... protoss?
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Great guide! But what's your usual timing on banelings and overlord drop? Before or after a 6-gate would hit? Also, how do you respond to a P who 6-gates, then refuses to engage your spine crawlers, denies your third, and expands behind his army? You spend so much on crawlers that you don't have the army you need to take on his.
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On February 26 2011 23:05 imareaver3 wrote: Great guide! But what's your usual timing on banelings and overlord drop? Before or after a 6-gate would hit? Also, how do you respond to a P who 6-gates, then refuses to engage your spine crawlers, denies your third, and expands behind his army? You spend so much on crawlers that you don't have the army you need to take on his.
I just remain on 2 base for a while and tech normally. As long as I don't die on 2 base, I can defeat his army if I focus on dropping on the sentries. Since he will be behind in tech he won't be able to deal with the big roach reinforcement that will barrel right into his face.
If I feel confident I just get my +2 range attack and push with roaches. They get really cost effective with every upgrade you give them. And roaches are a really good unit in ZvP since its the only thing that does not die in two hits if some tech units appear ( I'm looking at you hydralisk ).
Zerg units benefit the most from attack upgrades. You want to kill their units while you mass up more, you don't want your roaches to deal less damage while being able to survive one more zealot hit.
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Nice writeup I always tell myself i'm going to use bane drops, but then i never do..
in honour of the time spent writing this guide i will specifically practice this for at least 2 hours tonight
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On February 26 2011 23:14 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 23:05 imareaver3 wrote: Great guide! But what's your usual timing on banelings and overlord drop? Before or after a 6-gate would hit? Also, how do you respond to a P who 6-gates, then refuses to engage your spine crawlers, denies your third, and expands behind his army? You spend so much on crawlers that you don't have the army you need to take on his. I just remain on 2 base for a while and tech normally. As long as I don't die on 2 base, I can defeat his army if I focus on dropping on the sentries. Since he will be behind in tech he won't be able to deal with the big roach reinforcement that will barrel right into his face. If I feel confident I just get my +2 range attack and push with roaches. They get really cost effective with every upgrade you give them. And roaches are a really good unit in ZvP since its the only thing that does not die in two hits if some tech units appear ( I'm looking at you hydralisk ). Zerg units benefit the most from attack upgrades. You want to kill their units while you mass up more, you don't want your roaches to deal less damage while being able to survive one more zealot hit.
i like what your saying, but i think the reasoning of why zerg upgrades are so good is wrong(well not wrong, but i think the core reasoning is much simpler).
The more units you have, the more an upgrade matters.
Zerg usually have high quantities of units, so upgrades are very effective.
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On February 26 2011 23:23 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 23:14 Chaosvuistje wrote:On February 26 2011 23:05 imareaver3 wrote: Great guide! But what's your usual timing on banelings and overlord drop? Before or after a 6-gate would hit? Also, how do you respond to a P who 6-gates, then refuses to engage your spine crawlers, denies your third, and expands behind his army? You spend so much on crawlers that you don't have the army you need to take on his. I just remain on 2 base for a while and tech normally. As long as I don't die on 2 base, I can defeat his army if I focus on dropping on the sentries. Since he will be behind in tech he won't be able to deal with the big roach reinforcement that will barrel right into his face. If I feel confident I just get my +2 range attack and push with roaches. They get really cost effective with every upgrade you give them. And roaches are a really good unit in ZvP since its the only thing that does not die in two hits if some tech units appear ( I'm looking at you hydralisk ). Zerg units benefit the most from attack upgrades. You want to kill their units while you mass up more, you don't want your roaches to deal less damage while being able to survive one more zealot hit. i like what your saying, but i think the reasoning of why zerg upgrades are so good is wrong(well not wrong, but i think the core reasoning is much simpler). The more units you have, the more an upgrade matters. Zerg usually have high quantities of units, so upgrades are very effective.
I get where you are coming from. But there are actually several reasons why zerg upgrades are great in ZvP. Your reason isn't wrong.
Zerg units: - Are usually more numeral than the protoss units. More attacks = more advantages from attack upgrades. - Are weak in the health department. It wouldn't matter if your zerglings have +10 armour, a storm will still oneshot them. Making armour upgrades not as effective. - Zerglings can only surround so much, there is a limit on how many zerglings can attack a single unit at any given time. So by upgrading the attack you up the dps limit for zerglings. - Roaches attack in major bursts. If I attack with a roach and retreat ( which is possible due to their speed + burrow ) I have no need for armour upgrades immediately. Even in a direct engagement, armour upgrades won't let the roach live long enough to fire another attack. - are made to get the most damage out as quickly as possible before they die. Look at the hydra. The thing is weak, slow like an old man walking backwards on a tredmill, but if you let it attack you, it will sting like a wasp ( and then it'll burn in a glorious collosus laser , but thats your fate you sorry excuse for a larvae ! ). - Attack upgrades for melee directly give your lategame army more strength. While defense only helps with ultralisks, melee attack upgrades benefit both the broodlord and the ultralisk.
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Thanks for the guide! I can see how this will be very strong, will experiment with it later today.
In the meantime, I hope you don't mind, I complied all the replays into a zip file, http://www.mediafire.com/?puv0t0qvexosog8
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One thing that's worth noting is that zerglings benefit hugely from having an upgrade advantage and suffer terribly from being behind your opponent in upgrades. Going for early upgrades is super good for zerglings. They attack so quickly, +1 attack is huge.
Roaches scale nicely with upgrades, which means that they are better with 3/3 against a 3/3 opponent than a 0/0 roach is against a 0/0 opponent.
Neither unit works so well in large numbers. I've been having success against protoss by pretty much using this style, constantly engaging when I sniff an oppening to do so. Most protoss on the ladder seem to be trying to expo and immediately go two-stargate or a collosus den (and sometimes, insanely, both), which leaves them very vulnerable to swarming in with lings or (if you think you've time) roaches, if you can find someway to get past chokes and forcefields. If you can't, having upgrades on your lings sets you up nicely to tech to mutalisks if he's gone robo first, or hydra if he's gone gate first (but you need to hit fast...).
Who'd have thought that leaving a protoss alone to tech is probably as dangerous as leaving a zerg alone to macro. I don't think being passive against protoss is viable any more.
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+1 lings is very strong in ZvZ as well, if you see a roach centric build. Time it right, you'll get your +1 attack fairly early and can backstab and kill roach armies.
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On February 27 2011 00:59 dave333 wrote: +1 lings is very strong in ZvZ as well, if you see a roach centric build. Time it right, you'll get your +1 attack fairly early and can backstab and kill roach armies. I have actually tried +1 melee zerglings in combination with 0/0 roaches to defend a onebase roach push today. I absolutely DESTROYED his push, it was actually insane how cost effective it was.
I have to experiment with this more though, but I really think that +1 melee lings have a small niche in ZvZ. Although I think that niche is only versus one base roach pushes. Since you know, you don't want your entire force blown up by a single baneling. And once roaches get into too high of a number with upgrades, lings just aren't worth it. So they will only function well in that small timing window. Still, its a window worth exploring some more.
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If they see you massing ling with +1 they could just not attack during that window and wait a bit longer to get that number of roaches where lings just don't cut it anymore
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Really nice guide. Good job!
It is time for zerg to attack. I play them because they are the defend and macro style race, but nope, even 2base vs 5base these days, after a sweet deal of time some lazers dudes come and kill what you make, whatever it is, and how much also dosen't matter. Whatever you have made. It just feels silly to try to play against the clock when you have more income. And when the opponent can make invincible walls when he wishes to. But alas this is gonna help alot. Thanks again.
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On March 03 2011 19:43 Valckrie wrote: If they see you massing ling with +1 they could just not attack during that window and wait a bit longer to get that number of roaches where lings just don't cut it anymore
The point in getting +1 melee lings in ZvZ is not to only mass lings. Its only suited for a one base roach play situation, and its more or less a ZvZ 'cheese' like mutalisks.
You scout your opponent getting roaches very soon and you make an evolution chamber, start the +1 melee as soon as its finished and meanwhile build a roach warren. You can take a quicker expansion because a one base roach player completely gives up mapcontrol to make that giant push.
This gives you more production ( 1base1queen vs 2base1queen ) than him. The trick here is to get a lot of lings while the roach warren is building ( hide them from overlords ) and build only roaches with the gas that you get once the warren finishes. During the battle, reinforce with your stronger zerglings. Because the zerglings are the meatshield AND the damage dealers in the composition, the sheer mass will overwhelm him. The roaches behind the lings won't get much damage dealt to them, letting them take more shots at the opponents roaches.
Even if you barely survive the attack with only a couple of lings left standing, YOU have the expansion and the quickly massable army while he is stuck on one base. Thus you will win in the long run.
This is all very much still in the experimentation stages though. And its much more of a cheesy build than a regular roach1base defense. But it might be handy in tournament situations where you can throw the opponent off by doing something other than ling/baneling or roach/hydra. You have to switch it up every once in a while too.
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Great guide, good sir. I'll try it tonight.
But one question, how do you deal with it when he has Void Rays mixed into his ball? Do you ever get the spire, or do you depend on your drop killing enough to let you Hydras take care of them?
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On March 03 2011 23:01 Grapefruit wrote: Great guide, good sir. I'll try it tonight.
But one question, how do you deal with it when he has Void Rays mixed into his ball? Do you ever get the spire, or do you depend on your drop killing enough to let you Hydras take care of them?
If he has decided to go voidray + gateway army, you can simply overpower the gateway army and switch to mutalisks completely and kill his mapcontrol. You definitely have to make sure you don't let your overlords get sniped by voidrays though. He should commit fully with that kind of army if you want to kill it off.
Voidrays without an army to sit infront of die to anti air so quickly. You could even decide to make multiple queens ( which are good anyway for transfuses on air units/spinecrawlers/overlords and creeptumors ) and just use them in your army.
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Added a couple of new replays on the newer maps to the OP. Still going strong against most 3base turtle pushes.
I'd love to know if people have been experimenting with this style yet or if my post has proven to be futile. If there is still interrest in this I will continiue to add replays, ifnot, then I'll let it rot.
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Just watched the new ones. I have to say that while i find this strat very powerful, it also feels very "all insih".
On the last one on ST you didn't make more than 50 drones, your opponent took his third while you stay on two building a big army. Luckily he didn't make so many probes and his macro wasn't as powerful as it should be for a toss on 3 bases, he also tilted a little and invest way too much on DT while just 3 was enough to kill your third. After the big fight he should be able to produce way more than you, so that game in particular don't convince me very much, it's even the opposite actually. :s
Don't get me wrong i think you have a very powerful timing with the +2 +2 hit, still i think it's a bit too much all in to be enough robust. The lack of armor upgrade makes feel that way too.
For the theory now, i do think that somes Roaches +1 and speed +2 with some bane drop can be a solid option to handle mid game pushes ( against a pure robo/gate build obviously you'll need AA if he mixes more stargate units in his army ) even if roaches number scares me a little as they cost quite a lot, but you need a late game plan imo, with way more eco and T3 following ( ultra or brood i guess depending on his compo ). Your OP's statement about the mid game is probably true tho still i feel that's way of thinking put you too much all in, i didn't see any follow up in your replays so that would be my critic on your play. ( well, i don't remember the old ones, i watched so many those last 2 weeks )
Edit : I'll add that i still look more on that topic, i find that OP very nice, and it deserve more attention imo. It's just that your theory feels better than you play but i guess it's like that for most of us so don't take my words too bad.
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Great guide bro, I will definitely try it and post some feedback.
Let me commend an additional thing. The descriptions of what strat P is going based on what you see while scouting is something that will benefit me the MOST as a gold Z. I think this is the kind of information that paves the way to diamond/master, because unless you have all day to analyze replays most noobs will never learn this on their own.
General question - is there anywhere this information (scouting these things indicates this build) exists for more variants/races? And to the OP - I was thinking of maybe compiling this specific info myself if not, would you mind if I use the stuff in your thread as a starting point (with credit ofc)?
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On March 06 2011 02:45 mehau wrote: Great guide bro, I will definitely try it and post some feedback.
Let me commend an additional thing. The descriptions of what strat P is going based on what you see while scouting is something that will benefit me the MOST as a gold Z. I think this is the kind of information that paves the way to diamond/master, because unless you have all day to analyze replays most noobs will never learn this on their own.
General question - is there anywhere this information (scouting these things indicates this build) exists for more variants/races? And to the OP - I was thinking of maybe compiling this specific info myself if not, would you mind if I use the stuff in your thread as a starting point (with credit ofc)?
I don't know. I do know that there is a thread about important timings and the like. I don't mind you using the info I laid out here as long as you link back to this thread where you found it . Best of luck to you.
And yes, knowing is 90% the part of zerg. Your mechanics can be top notch jaedong level, but if you can't interpert information that is given to you, you're forever doomed to micro your zerglings against banshees(F.ex.).
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This thread is really helpful!
How would you respond against a Toss that FEs (or 3gate expands), then immediately into 2stargate phoenix? On longer maps, I think this is difficult for me to deal with because hydras are so slow that counter attacking is difficult. Even if you are able to defend and get your third, it seems like in most cases the toss will be able to expand safely himself while teching to collosus. A 2 base hydra timing push before he gets collosus can be powerful, but good toss players seem to be able to hold this off.
Chaosvuistje wrote:
Once lair finishes, build a spire. Since he went forge first, his warpgate tech WILL be delayed. This means that the usual 6gate timing that kills mutalisks is delayed by a ton. Giving you time to build up muta's ( around 8 ) and then attack his flimsy army head on, focussing on the sentries. If that is too strong for the while focus on killing pylons that power gateways or the cybercore. If he decided to get a quick stargate after expanding, get a couple of corruptors ( 2 or 3 ) to tank for the phoenixes.
If you scout two stargates instead of one, do you still go spire, just with corruptors? Are you still able to do enough damage? How do you transition out of this (i.e. do you keep building corruptors, stop building mutas, tech to hydra, attack, etc.)
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On March 06 2011 06:10 jazzbassmatt wrote: This thread is really helpful!
How would you respond against a Toss that FEs (or 3gate expands), then immediately into 2stargate phoenix? On longer maps, I think this is difficult for me to deal with because hydras are so slow that counter attacking is difficult. Even if you are able to defend and get your third, it seems like in most cases the toss will be able to expand safely himself while teching to collosus. A 2 base hydra timing push before he gets collosus can be powerful, but good toss players seem to be able to hold this off.
I have been having trouble with that kind of build myself. Obviously baneling bombs aren't the answer because they get sniped by the phoenix while you're on your way there. And as you said hydra's are too slow on long maps. I 'think' corruptors could help, but then again, that would mean an easy third for him too and he can just go insane on the warpgate count.
So yeah, I don't have the definite answer for that yet.
On March 06 2011 06:10 jazzbassmatt wrote:
If you scout two stargates instead of one, do you still go spire, just with corruptors? Are you still able to do enough damage? How do you transition out of this (i.e. do you keep building corruptors, stop building mutas, tech to hydra, attack, etc.)
In the newest ForgeFE replay, the opponent does get 2 stargates and I go spire with muta/corruptor. He was forced to make phoenix while I was forced to make corruptors and mutalisks, it was a really strange situation which I eventually overcame by doing a great push against his third and fourth.
If you go spire versus protoss, your goal is to gain air and map control. If the protoss manages to get these from you completely, you might aswel be 200/200 on drones because he will just run you over with macro and any unit combination.
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On February 27 2011 03:25 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 00:59 dave333 wrote: +1 lings is very strong in ZvZ as well, if you see a roach centric build. Time it right, you'll get your +1 attack fairly early and can backstab and kill roach armies. I have actually tried +1 melee zerglings in combination with 0/0 roaches to defend a onebase roach push today. I absolutely DESTROYED his push, it was actually insane how cost effective it was. I have to experiment with this more though, but I really think that +1 melee lings have a small niche in ZvZ. Although I think that niche is only versus one base roach pushes. Since you know, you don't want your entire force blown up by a single baneling. And once roaches get into too high of a number with upgrades, lings just aren't worth it. So they will only function well in that small timing window. Still, its a window worth exploring some more.
all he need is to bring 4 banelings and you are so screwed up it's not even funny. You need to go roaches after a certain point. +1 lings is very tempting and it sets up for the muta transition well but a good timed roach/bling will ruin your day. You cannot engage at all, if you send ur lings at once, they get owned. If you send your lings a few at a time, they get owned as well.
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But on topic, I think you are right in saying zerg is strong midgame. In fact, i'm starting to feel zerg is strong when you are one base ahead and he has not taken. I'll focus my zerg game on finding the timing where I'm ahead, amass army and go for the kill when he tries to catch up economically. So far it's just been taking a fast expansion and kill any protoss who tries to expand with 50 zerglings, but if he's doing a safe expand, I can easily transition my zerglings into banes and do a huge drop+ling attack which will also kill him. Definitely worth experimenting with baneling drops, even burrowed banes sound super powerful, it basically FORCE a robo...
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On March 06 2011 19:47 evanthebouncy! wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 03:25 Chaosvuistje wrote:On February 27 2011 00:59 dave333 wrote: +1 lings is very strong in ZvZ as well, if you see a roach centric build. Time it right, you'll get your +1 attack fairly early and can backstab and kill roach armies. I have actually tried +1 melee zerglings in combination with 0/0 roaches to defend a onebase roach push today. I absolutely DESTROYED his push, it was actually insane how cost effective it was. I have to experiment with this more though, but I really think that +1 melee lings have a small niche in ZvZ. Although I think that niche is only versus one base roach pushes. Since you know, you don't want your entire force blown up by a single baneling. And once roaches get into too high of a number with upgrades, lings just aren't worth it. So they will only function well in that small timing window. Still, its a window worth exploring some more. all he need is to bring 4 banelings and you are so screwed up it's not even funny. You need to go roaches after a certain point. +1 lings is very tempting and it sets up for the muta transition well but a good timed roach/bling will ruin your day. You cannot engage at all, if you send ur lings at once, they get owned. If you send your lings a few at a time, they get owned as well.
I do get what you are saying. Banelings will ruin your day so hard its not even funny, but its not unwinnable in that case. You can use your roaches to snipe off banelings while moving back in and out with your zerglings. Although the roach/bane player does have the advantage.
As I have said earlier, this is basically a ZvZ cheese. So if it is scouted its probably game if the opponent knows how to deal with it, but ifnot, he will get crushed. Its not supposed to be a solid opening and I recognise that.
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this sounds really awesome. I'm certain that zerg should use baneling bombs in all matchups. Their damage output is awesome, and they are especially great vs clumped up balls, where all other zerg units struggle with.
Also, you can simply baneling drop his mineral line at 3 bases simultaniously, and most of the time you'll do terrible damage. it's especially strong if you shift click these drops, while the OLs are still far away, so if you time a push with your army at the same time, he'll either not micro his army at all, or lose most of his economy. Win/win situation in any case!
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Sounds like a very sweet gameplan. Baneling bombs are definately something I have wanted to incorporate in my builds more, and is something I will definately try. A few questions.
How does this work out vs a protoss opening with a bunch of phoenixes? You basically lose so much supply that your zergling number will be very limited if he decides for a zealot heavy followup push.
You opt for +1 melee then +1 ranged and then further upgrading attack upgrades. Considering how +carapace benefit both roaches and lings (and ultras who, imo, need the armor to buy time to really deal out the hurt), would it be worth it to get a fast 2nd evo chamber and then research + carapace alongside with the +1 ranged? Its 6 roaches less in the short run, but in the long run it will make every unit just that more powerful, and as long as you do get the + attack at the same time it will work out for a stronger army overall? Reason I ask is because i really like going double evo pretty fast especially against 3 gateway expand builds where teching abit harder is fairly safe.
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On March 06 2011 21:11 Thraundil wrote: Sounds like a very sweet gameplan. Baneling bombs are definately something I have wanted to incorporate in my builds more, and is something I will definately try. A few questions.
How does this work out vs a protoss opening with a bunch of phoenixes? You basically lose so much supply that your zergling number will be very limited if he decides for a zealot heavy followup push.
You opt for +1 melee then +1 ranged and then further upgrading attack upgrades. Considering how +carapace benefit both roaches and lings (and ultras who, imo, need the armor to buy time to really deal out the hurt), would it be worth it to get a fast 2nd evo chamber and then research + carapace alongside with the +1 ranged? Its 6 roaches less in the short run, but in the long run it will make every unit just that more powerful, and as long as you do get the + attack at the same time it will work out for a stronger army overall? Reason I ask is because i really like going double evo pretty fast especially against 3 gateway expand builds where teching abit harder is fairly safe.
To the first question I say a mass zergling count will make sure you keep ground control. He cannot get lots of phoenixes and a big gateway army at the same time. You should be scouting his army all the time anyway and if you see mass zealot while you are researching +2 melee, the choice of simply getting a banelign nest and overrunning him seems pretty obvious. If you see very quick phoenixes you can always just plop down a couple of spores around your mineral lines and park your overlords there to prevent him from sniping drones/ovies.
To the second question, I would say experiment . Myself I haven't been working with carapace upgrades as much as I would want to because I've had enough success with my current setup to keep experimenting to a minimum. I would definitely time that second evo between the research of +1 range though. Prefferably after lair. But personally I've always found attack upgrades to be better than carapace upgrades, because attack upgrades make more of a difference.
However if you plan on going for a lategame techswitch to ultra's, early carapace ugprades are a must. So if those are in your gameplan, definitely experiment with those and tell us your experiences with it . I can only play so much and having other people expand on this basic idea would make this build progress so much faster.
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Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:10 jazzbassmatt wrote:
If you scout two stargates instead of one, do you still go spire, just with corruptors? Are you still able to do enough damage? How do you transition out of this (i.e. do you keep building corruptors, stop building mutas, tech to hydra, attack, etc.) In the newest ForgeFE replay, the opponent does get 2 stargates and I go spire with muta/corruptor. He was forced to make phoenix while I was forced to make corruptors and mutalisks, it was a really strange situation which I eventually overcame by doing a great push against his third and fourth. If you go spire versus protoss, your goal is to gain air and map control. If the protoss manages to get these from you completely, you might aswel be 200/200 on drones because he will just run you over with macro and any unit combination.
Not to shoot you down but that replay was probably the biggest example of what not to do against double stargate/mass phoenix play. You didn't make the critical mass of corruptors to just shut down the phoenixes and you kept making mutas instead. It was a painful replay to watch.
The protoss was far more cost efficient making those phoenixes. I lost count of how many mutas that were made just to throw away at a phoenix ball. It was actually an entire air combat game. I believe for the most part you had about 20 lings and the protoss had 2 collosus out.
However this is definitely a good example of how to punish a protoss that goes forge FE and just relies on 2 cannons for protection.
To sum up the beginning of the game, our zerg friend not only killed the cannons but got into the main base and picked off the cybercore that was halfway through researching warpgate. All this in addition to killing lots of probes and pylons, the forge and 1st gateway.
This was what won you the game, not your decision making against the air protoss. In fact that could've lost you the game.
For future reference if you take out the cybercore before warpgate is done you can tech to roaches and just win. Don't waste with dragging the game on for 40 minutes.
So in summary:
- Good replay to show your +1 build opening and how quickly it can go from a few annoying zerglings to crazy deathlings eating your base up. - Terrible replay to demonstrate stargate countering.
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On March 06 2011 23:37 kesbie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:10 jazzbassmatt wrote:
If you scout two stargates instead of one, do you still go spire, just with corruptors? Are you still able to do enough damage? How do you transition out of this (i.e. do you keep building corruptors, stop building mutas, tech to hydra, attack, etc.) In the newest ForgeFE replay, the opponent does get 2 stargates and I go spire with muta/corruptor. He was forced to make phoenix while I was forced to make corruptors and mutalisks, it was a really strange situation which I eventually overcame by doing a great push against his third and fourth. If you go spire versus protoss, your goal is to gain air and map control. If the protoss manages to get these from you completely, you might aswel be 200/200 on drones because he will just run you over with macro and any unit combination. Not to shoot you down but that replay was probably the biggest example of what not to do against double stargate/mass phoenix play. You didn't make the critical mass of corruptors to just shut down the phoenixes and you kept making mutas instead. It was a painful replay to watch. The protoss was far more cost efficient making those phoenixes. I lost count of how many mutas that were made just to throw away at a phoenix ball. It was actually an entire air combat game. I believe for the most part you had about 20 lings and the protoss had 2 collosus out. However this is definitely a good example of how to punish a protoss that goes forge FE and just relies on 2 cannons for protection. To sum up the beginning of the game, our zerg friend not only killed the cannons but got into the main base and picked off the cybercore that was halfway through researching warpgate. All this in addition to killing lots of probes and pylons, the forge and 1st gateway. This was what won you the game, not your decision making against the air protoss. In fact that could've lost you the game. For future reference if you take out the cybercore before warpgate is done you can tech to roaches and just win. Don't waste with dragging the game on for 40 minutes. So in summary: - Good replay to show your +1 build opening and how quickly it can go from a few annoying zerglings to crazy deathlings eating your base up. - Terrible replay to demonstrate stargate countering.
Hmm, well input is always welcome regardless .
The decision of going spire was BECAUSE I delayed his cybercore by taking it out, I figured that he wouldn't have enough time to go stargate and I could just finish him off right then and there. This wasn't the case to my regrets.
And yes, the protoss was more cost effective in those fights, but to remain costeffective, he had to constantly make phoenix. My brain wasn't functioning enough to see this as a sign to get infestors up faster.
Will see how it goes next time ^^. Thanks for the review.
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On March 06 2011 19:05 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:10 jazzbassmatt wrote:
If you scout two stargates instead of one, do you still go spire, just with corruptors? Are you still able to do enough damage? How do you transition out of this (i.e. do you keep building corruptors, stop building mutas, tech to hydra, attack, etc.) In the newest ForgeFE replay, the opponent does get 2 stargates and I go spire with muta/corruptor. He was forced to make phoenix while I was forced to make corruptors and mutalisks, it was a really strange situation which I eventually overcame by doing a great push against his third and fourth. If you go spire versus protoss, your goal is to gain air and map control. If the protoss manages to get these from you completely, you might aswel be 200/200 on drones because he will just run you over with macro and any unit combination.
Yeah, I completely agree. I think the reason zerg has a strong midgame is really actually pretty simple: map control. True, the midgame is also when the protoss player is still teching and has a smaller army because he's investing in the late game, but through good FF usage (and just midgame mindset oriented play as opposed to teching too hard) the toss can usually overcome this.
One thing I've tried vs. 2base 2stargate phoenix builds is just droning up a ton, building a few spore crawlers and queens, then pressuring his expo a ton with burrow and roach upgrade. If you're being harassed by phoenix, you can always try to counter attack and pressure (I've often even gotten a lucky nexus snipe) with just upgraded roaches. Roaches are fast, can burrow under FF, and can tank phoenix lifting a lot better.
Unless the toss player builds a lot of cannons, I've usually had success being able to destroy the nexus (or kill a significant amount of probes) at the toss player's expo while I get maximum saturation on two bases and defend phoenix harass. This strategy, however, doesn't work nearly as well on maps with a narrow choke at the expo (think shakuras). On these maps, sometimes breaking down the back rocks and attacking from two angles is your best bet--unless he has amazing force fields, your army should be bigger than his, and this is an advantage you can use much more with roaches than with hydras (even though roach cannot attack air. Even if the toss player, for example, has a couple void rays, you can often still use burrow movement, snipe his nexus, and run home without losing too much. (It's very situational however).
On maps with a wider front at the expo, like Metalopolis or Xel Naga, mass roach (although counter-intuitive) works pretty well as a counter to two stargates. The only way the toss player can defend well enough is by building lots of cannons, a couple voidrays, using good FFs, and going less heavy on phoenix and more heavy on gateway units.
Even if you don't do significant damage, as long as you're smart about it, you:
-force the protoss player to use his phoenix to defend, thus keeping most of your map control
-delay the toss player's colossus tech
-force the toss player to focus more on gateway units and cannons, which are much less of a threat late game than a huge ball of phoenix
-should be able to easily take and secure a third base
This type of build depends on good unit control by you though. If you allow the toss player to defend his base WHILE teching to colossus and WHILE harassing your with phoenix and WHILE denying your third with a voidray, then the toss player will have a significant advantage. Still, however, mass roach isn't actually as bad of a unit composition against a phoenix/colossus/immortal ball as you might think. You're still in the game. Using phoenix to lift up roaches is much less cost efficient for the toss player than lifting up hydras or even using those same phoenix to attack corruptors. And upgraded roaches actually don't do THAT badly against colossus and immortals if there aren't many stalkers/zealots to tank damage. Sentries are also much more effective force fielding slow hydras than they are against roaches with burrow movement. And obviously hydras are terrible against colossus, and imo, aren't really that great against immortals either (a soft counter to them, if anything).
So, anyways, that's a build I've been toying around with. I still am only a high diamond/low masters level player, and I don't understand or play the game at a super high level, but this response has worked pretty well for me (especially against players that are too bad to build cannons or put obs. at their expo, making killing their expo easy). Some problems I see with this response are that: a) really good protoss players can potentially defend while applying significant pressure with phoenix, and b) this build is much less effective (or at least harder to pull off) on maps where the expo has a small choke. What do you think?
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well this is a nice build but ill stick with my build, im writing this post to show u a new idea that started in the ogs team, mid to late game bane drop but not just on his probe but mostly mass drop of banes on the deathball while u fight him, this may some wierd but i swear to god its so good, your econ can support u getting over drop speed and 30bane or so and when u drop then on the toss death ball well he dies quickly now most people would say how the hell do i get there but with your build its easy and i do it easly to just by after i have roaches with burrow and speed as im taking my 3 start over drop and speed and get bane nest when its nearly done, if u see him go for air with his death ball like voids or so get hydras before banes he will need to sit on 2 base for a while to get a good vrs collos death ball so u got time then when u drop banes in middle of the ball your hydras can easly kill voids if u want to see ill send some replays
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look u guys are over thinking if he goes 2 stargate phenix and u scout it its awsome for u !!! u get like 2 spores in each base immidatly expand cus phenix can do nothing and get hydras after when i scout 2 star phenix i smile
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Canada13372 Posts
I don't play Zerg but if theres one thing I love to see its a well written guide
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Yes this is one of the best written guides! I think this is going to change my ZvP
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awesome guide Mr.Chaos. Yet to watch the replays but did d/l them all. baneling bombs are one of the most fun things to watch when executed well and are a blast (no pun intended) if your the one dropping them . I am assuming that +2 allows banes do to 45 dmg, and was unaware how crucial that little tid bit is. Thanks for opening my eyes to that fact
do you feel like late game ultra/roach/bane drop/corruptor is zerg's deathball army? low ultra/corruptor #s with lots of roaches on the ground and ovies stuffed with banes.
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Gotta go try that, although I think you could do a 14 scout for just a bit more econ and the same advantages? At least I have found that it's early enough if you rally your 14th drone to scout even on those bigger maps.
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Thanks everyone for the nice replies about the format of this guide ^^. I put a lot of thought into it. So its great to have some positive replies on that and it definitely helps my morale to be higher since it has been quite low lately ( illnesses and all that ).
On March 09 2011 23:50 Juice303 wrote: do you feel like late game ultra/roach/bane drop/corruptor is zerg's deathball army? low ultra/corruptor #s with lots of roaches on the ground and ovies stuffed with banes.
I feel that there is no 'deathball' army for zerg. And Zergs shouldn't look for one ( le gasp! ). I don't think zerg was designed in the way that a death army should be the end goal.
Rather, I think that in the lategame, rediculous tech switches while keeping your economy in-tact are the key. And especially after an engagement which traded armies, this is a great oppertunity. And you shouldn't think in just one phase either, but rather in the way 'toss usually screws you over ( I phoenix pew pew overlords, he hydra, I collosus, he die :D:D:D ). The trick is to find enough army compositions to tech switch into.
Currently in the lategame I do a couple of unit comps: Roach/mass ( around 12 or 15 ) broodlord. You attack one end ( usually the main where all the tech is ) with the broodlords and across the map you attack with your roach force. He is FORCED to attack the broodlords with all his anti air units, because he will be dead in the water without gateways or cybernetics cores. And because this engagement is hugely costineffective for protoss, you will come out on top ( plus the roaches can take out an expansion, score! ).
Ultra/roach. Ultra's as they are suck as a stand alone unit. BUT they force a specific reaction from protoss which you then can exploit by going another tech route. For example he goes voidrays, you go muta ling. He goes for immortals, you go for broodlord or whatever.
Obviously tehre are a lot more options, but I haven't explored those. The only units I don't recommend are mass zerglings or hydra's. Both can be stopped by simply warping in a round of khaydarin templar, this might change in 1.3 though.
Just look at the protoss army and see where the weakness is or will be, and exploit that. Don't look for a deathball, pick protoss if you want that.
On March 10 2011 00:26 tablet wrote: Gotta go try that, although I think you could do a 14 scout for just a bit more econ and the same advantages? At least I have found that it's early enough if you rally your 14th drone to scout even on those bigger maps.
I haven't experimented with drone timings too much. I just want to get in their base before they can lock me out with a zealot or whatever, so I can check their gascount/chronoboost. I don't really care for the 15 minerals I save if I do a 14 drone scout vs a 12 drone scout. So your word is as good as mine on this issue .
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Added a ton of new replays ^^ hope you guys like it.
I've been experimenting with infestors a bit, they're nice occasionally vs blink stalkers if you ahve lots of lings .
But lately I have encountered a LOT of mindgame play from protoss. A lot of tech hiding, fake expanding, mc style sentry pushes. I was wondering if you guys saw an increase of that kind of play too.
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So I noticed this was added to the "recommended threads" section of the forum. Good choice, I think.
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