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On April 19 2011 07:59 Skillz_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 07:53 Yamulo wrote:On April 19 2011 07:36 Skillz_Man wrote:On April 19 2011 00:22 Kangg wrote:On April 18 2011 23:55 Skillz_Man wrote: I am a protoss player, and I've faced this build now 20-30 times, and wow it's horrible.
Firstly I'll start off with the obvious, pretty much even if you see a 14 gas you'll be checking if a drone is leaving his base, if it is, you can block his expo, place a pylon, whatever. Not being able to place your expo is real bad because your gas hasn't even been started yet, and if decide to go place a hatch at a third it's practically a free win against 4 gate.
But let's take the scenario of you get the 16 hatch off. Once I see a 15-16 hatch and no gas on the way, get zealot out right as cybercore finishes and chrono stalkers constantly (3 stalkers). My first zealot + stalker arrive when your first spine crawler is 2/3 done on Meta cross spawns. Ignore the queen, target down the spine crawler and... And lings do so little because my stalkers can kite because your speed is endlessly delayed. I follow up with a 4 gate off one gas, and you're finished.
I have lost twice against this build with my aggresion style, and it was just a midgame error after we came off very even after the 4 gate. Imo 16 hatch doesn't work at all because the time to get the spine crawler is so narrow, and that's why 15 hatch is a lot more viable. However I do the 12 gate 17 core where my probe production is delayed by about 1-2 seconds when you pair up probes and on close spawns you can do this againsts a standard 15 hatch 14 gas 14 pool.
I would like to see an actual pro doing this as the timings are a little too slow on everything to stand up against a solidly executed protoss agressive build. If anyone wants any replays, I can post some, as well, because the ones in the replays are delayed by 10 seconds are so, and the micro in the 4 gate one wasn't the most amazing either by the toss.
Saying that, I don't want to take away anything from you for creating such a staple build in the ZvX arsenal. Just to start things off, He does a 13 hatch. Secondly, this build also can work with pool first, take a look at many of spanish's games. The concept is using static defense over a lot of units to defend, and using a lot of queens as support. the exact build order can be changed and alter depending on a persons style. The two main parts is its low amount of units but high level of defense. i would like to say u made 1 valid point here, but honestly u didn't. Look at exhibit A. Spanishiwa beat ROOTminigun(P) 4-3 in a show match. Nuf said. Alright, well there's a few points I want to make: 1. He beat Rootminigun 4-3, nothing else. They are both good players but minigun wasn't plating his best, and didn't have the proper responses. It is a good build if your opponent doesn't put on pressure early, which mini didn't do all (most?) games he lost. Overall it's powerful but has a very visible weakness, I found it, if you don't agree with me, no harm done... But I will jeep winning ladder games vs it, I just wanted to share my find. 2. You fail to understand that I attack BEFORE his static defense is up, and it can't get up any sooner. Next - a pool first doesn't prevent this because my stalkers can kite your zerglings, then all that happens is you get contained to one base, and that is the #1 reason for the 14 gas 14 pool build... To prevent that. You say he uses queens to defend... The maximum amount of queens you can have when I attack is two, and creep doesn't join your two bases so you shouldn't be attempting to use that one as support. 3. I'm not sure what level you play at, but going 13 hatch is useless, you cut into your economy so hard that you could rather do a 15 hatch 14 pool 14 gas and be better off. And your statement of this build can be changed depending on a persons style is ridicolous. The only way that is remotely possible if you're playing a famous player, which 99.9% people reading here are not. And gambling a game like that, especially in a non tournament format is too risky. To be honest, I expected this build to be best in zvp, but I feel like this build has core issues in every match up. Sling runbys in zvz... One base marine play... Versus standard stuff it fairs well, but it's weak to many all-ins, and I think with time player will learn the correct responses to no gas openings. Anyhow, that is my ladder experience, if you'd like to show me what my opponents are doing wrong feel free to pm me for a game. Sling run bys are not a problem with this build... do you wonder why he has the 2 queens on his ramp? and how do you plan to attack before static defense is up when his spines are in time for both 4 gate and 6 gate, i just don't see how you can read without reading the op... The op states "13 hatch 15 pool is slightly less efficient IF YOU HAVE TO MAKE EARLY LINGS", seconds how are you going to come into an op and flame the person who made it. Also how did minigun play poorly or respond is a bad way when he even stated he read this thread..... And from his stream he has enough queens to stop the "stalker harass" that you claim will end games. Ever consider the people that are using it versus you just aren't as good at the build? I mean making a blind statement without reading the op is one thing but then flaming it is another. But every play style has a weakness and i am pretty sure it isn't as glairing as you think. Also, he did it versus alot of the P on VT on bitters stream and he wasn't exploited in ways you talk about so idk. Please read my initial post on the 12 gate 17 cyber 1 zealot 3 stalker pressure... You cannot hold the stalker harass, either you're theorycrafting or you're saying blantant lies. The only way you'll hold is if you make 14-18 lings, and get enough time to make spines, but that leaves your drone count far too low. I'm going off experience, you aren't. Edit: Alright, I just assumed in ZvZ because the map that was on my mind was Scrap Station, but that's probably the wrong build for that map. I am not flaming anyone, Im just saying I have found this build highly unsuccessful, if any pro wants to try my stalker harass tell me how it goes... But Im not too worried about people I play having trouble executing it. On the GSL maps I can totally see this being the new ZvP build, but medium or short distances, I don't see what you can do. Probably upon scouting you can throw down a gas asap and get speed, which nobody has done to me but seems like a legit choice, but staying with the build and not getting speed till that later time seems very suicidal, as it has. Can you post some replays of the 12 gate 17 cyber 1 zealot 3 stalker pressure ? So we can see what is wrong.
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United States589 Posts
On April 19 2011 16:47 Pro]ChoSen- wrote: How is this viable at high Masters? Your 16 hatch will get blocked 80% of the time ^^ There is always expansion harassment / delaying of your expo-hatch? Maybe this was addressed already but I didn't see it in the couple pages I scanned through.
Spanishiwa uses it all the time in Grandmasters. He also hatches on 13 (most of the time) to avoid the block.
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looks like I have some studying to do =_=
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On April 19 2011 17:16 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: on spanish' stream yesterday against a very high level terran, it was visible what some of the pro's stated often before: This build won't work at very high level that good. The terran mass expanded and had no problem taking down nydusses in time, he detected them too quickly and spanish wasted a lot of mins and gas for nydus. Also the T spread out his units to take nydus/drops down quickly. He then moved to drop harrass until he got that 10+ tanks terran death ball. Seems at a certain level (very high), players have very quick reaction times and excellent minimap awareness, nydus gets useless pretty much. This is quite logical, as you can't "improve" nydus play by your skill. A nydus attack executed by a gold player is similar effective as executed by a high level player. Its success depends on opponents skill to detect and react quickly, so nydus effectivity gets weaker the more skilled your opponent is and you have no way to make nydus more strong by your own skill.
Ofc the concept of mineral heavy opening is not bound that much to nydus play, but if you invest in a lot of queens, nydus is important to get agressive with mass queens. Without nydus/drop, a good part of your army (queens) is defense only, which is a strategic weakness.
There is actually a big difference in how lowlevel and highlevel players use nydus worms.
1. Often Highlevel players place multiple worms in different locations at the same time. 2. Highlevel players place the worm while distracting the opponent with a few speedlings (harder to spot the worm when there is a big, blinking dot on your minimap). 3. Highlevel players have a better eye for vison radius of buildings and can find small gaps that don't have vision. 4. Highlevel players can use worms as a distraction while using baneling drops or speedling drops.
Without seeing the replay i can't tell if it was a buildorder loss or a gameplay loss, so i can't comment on that.
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On April 19 2011 17:28 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 17:16 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: on spanish' stream yesterday against a very high level terran, it was visible what some of the pro's stated often before: This build won't work at very high level that good. The terran mass expanded and had no problem taking down nydusses in time, he detected them too quickly and spanish wasted a lot of mins and gas for nydus. Also the T spread out his units to take nydus/drops down quickly. He then moved to drop harrass until he got that 10+ tanks terran death ball. Seems at a certain level (very high), players have very quick reaction times and excellent minimap awareness, nydus gets useless pretty much. This is quite logical, as you can't "improve" nydus play by your skill. A nydus attack executed by a gold player is similar effective as executed by a high level player. Its success depends on opponents skill to detect and react quickly, so nydus effectivity gets weaker the more skilled your opponent is and you have no way to make nydus more strong by your own skill.
Ofc the concept of mineral heavy opening is not bound that much to nydus play, but if you invest in a lot of queens, nydus is important to get agressive with mass queens. Without nydus/drop, a good part of your army (queens) is defense only, which is a strategic weakness. There is actually a big difference in how lowlevel and highlevel players use nydus worms. 1. Often Highlevel players place multiple worms in different locations at the same time. 2. Highlevel players place the worm while distracting the opponent with a few speedlings (harder to spot the worm when there is a big, blinking dot on your minimap). 3. Highlevel players have a better eye for vison radius of buildings and can find small gaps that don't have vision. 4. Highlevel players can use worms as a distraction while using baneling drops or speedling drops. Without seeing the replay i can't tell if it was a buildorder loss or a gameplay loss, so i can't comment on that.
Sure better players also use nydus a bit better, but in general he has a good point. Also, your first point, that Highlevel players place multiple worms in different locations at the same time... err how many nydus entrances do you think one should build? This seems like bullshit ;p
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Although I have to do way more testing on this one (in 1-2 weeks....), one gate exp into DTs seems quite good to me against a 13 (!) hatch. Even if you don't do damage, DTs provide awsome map control, and map control is everything when playing vs ling/bling. Also ling/bling seems to be just about the only combo where you really "want" to have archons. Against blings archons function like terran siege-tanks, it takes a ridiculous amount of them to kill one. Also due to their large collission-size, the splash isn't a problem.
All in all, ling/bling-players like to mass expand in midgame, especially against passive toss players. And there DTs are really able to shine, if you place them at spots where they can intercept the drones that are supposed to build the hatches, before any spores can go down. If zerg has to cover each expo-attempt with an overseer + a couple of lings, then the (single) DT there has already paid for itself!
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Huh I r a bit noob ... have to say though im lovign this build ...
One thing though is against early protoss aggression ... namley 2 gate and 1 gate robo ... I find i am having to build like 7 spine crawlers, 4-6 queens (5 and 6 building when attack hits) and a few lings and am only just holding it off - usually sacrificing 8 drones, most queens, spines and lings
When I do this and hold it I go down on drone count - but have at least 1 queen left so I can rebuild and protoss just lost everything and has to rebuild - so it could be close. The attack hits when i am just about to build all my gas and i admit i am still refining.
But is that kind of loss from z perspetive acceptable? I have huge problems against that kind of play no matter how i build Z (they are my weakest race by a long way). Z is goign to get seriously punished here no matter what you do ... is it one of those spots where you just hold it and then know you are going to be in good shape for the rest of the game even though you feel like crap?
Should probably get a demo lol but im not looking for detail, but a nod or a 'nah you suck go do more work on it'
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On April 19 2011 17:31 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 17:28 Morfildur wrote:On April 19 2011 17:16 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: on spanish' stream yesterday against a very high level terran, it was visible what some of the pro's stated often before: This build won't work at very high level that good. The terran mass expanded and had no problem taking down nydusses in time, he detected them too quickly and spanish wasted a lot of mins and gas for nydus. Also the T spread out his units to take nydus/drops down quickly. He then moved to drop harrass until he got that 10+ tanks terran death ball. Seems at a certain level (very high), players have very quick reaction times and excellent minimap awareness, nydus gets useless pretty much. This is quite logical, as you can't "improve" nydus play by your skill. A nydus attack executed by a gold player is similar effective as executed by a high level player. Its success depends on opponents skill to detect and react quickly, so nydus effectivity gets weaker the more skilled your opponent is and you have no way to make nydus more strong by your own skill.
Ofc the concept of mineral heavy opening is not bound that much to nydus play, but if you invest in a lot of queens, nydus is important to get agressive with mass queens. Without nydus/drop, a good part of your army (queens) is defense only, which is a strategic weakness. There is actually a big difference in how lowlevel and highlevel players use nydus worms. 1. Often Highlevel players place multiple worms in different locations at the same time. 2. Highlevel players place the worm while distracting the opponent with a few speedlings (harder to spot the worm when there is a big, blinking dot on your minimap). 3. Highlevel players have a better eye for vison radius of buildings and can find small gaps that don't have vision. 4. Highlevel players can use worms as a distraction while using baneling drops or speedling drops. Without seeing the replay i can't tell if it was a buildorder loss or a gameplay loss, so i can't comment on that. Sure better players also use nydus a bit better, but in general he has a good point. Also, your first point, that Highlevel players place multiple worms in different locations at the same time... err how many nydus entrances do you think one should build? This seems like bullshit ;p
I don't have the links, but i saw IIRC 2 casts where spanishiwa built 2 nydus tunnels and used both effectively. Also, ages ago (meaning 2-4 month), there was a game casted by day9 where a player used 2 nydus tunnels extremely effective for a mainly ultralisk based army.
Think about it: Against 1 nydus, you can pull workers... Against 2 you have to pull a part of your army back, so you are out of position and more vulnerable for an attack at another position. And if you fail to spot even one of them you have a whole army behind your lines destroying your production facilities and you can't even counter because it can move back almost instantly.
I understand that nydus worms are expensive, but they always force a player to react. You have to kill it, otherwise it can kill you in seconds.
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This thread has more warnings and bans than any I've seen in recent memory....... wow.
I've been using this in team games, and ppl laugh at me =)
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after seeing this build I kinda want to switch to zerg. It just looks awesome
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I used this build for the first time yesterday, versus Protoss on Xelnaga. The protoss did not attack me so I could build up my army, harass and then attack his colussus deathball head on!
I had to laugh so hard after that engagement (and the gg). I love this build!
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On April 19 2011 17:43 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 17:31 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 19 2011 17:28 Morfildur wrote:On April 19 2011 17:16 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: on spanish' stream yesterday against a very high level terran, it was visible what some of the pro's stated often before: This build won't work at very high level that good. The terran mass expanded and had no problem taking down nydusses in time, he detected them too quickly and spanish wasted a lot of mins and gas for nydus. Also the T spread out his units to take nydus/drops down quickly. He then moved to drop harrass until he got that 10+ tanks terran death ball. Seems at a certain level (very high), players have very quick reaction times and excellent minimap awareness, nydus gets useless pretty much. This is quite logical, as you can't "improve" nydus play by your skill. A nydus attack executed by a gold player is similar effective as executed by a high level player. Its success depends on opponents skill to detect and react quickly, so nydus effectivity gets weaker the more skilled your opponent is and you have no way to make nydus more strong by your own skill.
Ofc the concept of mineral heavy opening is not bound that much to nydus play, but if you invest in a lot of queens, nydus is important to get agressive with mass queens. Without nydus/drop, a good part of your army (queens) is defense only, which is a strategic weakness. There is actually a big difference in how lowlevel and highlevel players use nydus worms. 1. Often Highlevel players place multiple worms in different locations at the same time. 2. Highlevel players place the worm while distracting the opponent with a few speedlings (harder to spot the worm when there is a big, blinking dot on your minimap). 3. Highlevel players have a better eye for vison radius of buildings and can find small gaps that don't have vision. 4. Highlevel players can use worms as a distraction while using baneling drops or speedling drops. Without seeing the replay i can't tell if it was a buildorder loss or a gameplay loss, so i can't comment on that. Sure better players also use nydus a bit better, but in general he has a good point. Also, your first point, that Highlevel players place multiple worms in different locations at the same time... err how many nydus entrances do you think one should build? This seems like bullshit ;p I don't have the links, but i saw IIRC 2 casts where spanishiwa built 2 nydus tunnels and used both effectively. Also, ages ago (meaning 2-4 month), there was a game casted by day9 where a player used 2 nydus tunnels extremely effective for a mainly ultralisk based army. Think about it: Against 1 nydus, you can pull workers... Against 2 you have to pull a part of your army back, so you are out of position and more vulnerable for an attack at another position. And if you fail to spot even one of them you have a whole army behind your lines destroying your production facilities and you can't even counter because it can move back almost instantly. I understand that nydus worms are expensive, but they always force a player to react. You have to kill it, otherwise it can kill you in seconds.
You can just pull workers against 2 nydus worms aswell. you usually have at least around 20 workers in your base and only about 8-10 can attack at once against a nydus anyway, so there should be enough for 2.
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I like how the flaws have been pointed out in this thread such as it being vulnerable to a greedily-expanding opponent and other things, but one recurring 'criticism' of it is bugging me.
That is, people who go 'oh lol i fought this build yesterday on ladder and crushed it easily. weak build. lololol.'
It is a flawed argument in the sense that it can be simply because the person you've played is not executing the build correctly. Perhaps he's not being aggressive enough, perhaps he's getting some timings wrong, perhaps he's not reacting enough. Just beating someone who is using a build does not make that build a 'weak' build , etc.
At the same time, we have to keep in mind that spanishiwa is a pretty decent player himself. It's not like he's a low level BSG player who theorycrafted some amazing build - he has pretty good multitasking, mechanics, etc. I mean, it's not exactly EASY to be doing multiple nydus / worker harass/ baneling drops /while fighting an army all at the same time. So while you can know the concept of this BO and its general gameplan, executing it well will depend on your proficiency at harassing, multitasking, reacting, etc. (as it seems to me, for ZvP and ZvT at least, a big part of this build is to harass and delay for T3)
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What is interesting about this build is that it takes a reasonable idea, and then pushes it far beyond what seems rational.
Zergs understand the idea that we should only build as much army as we intend to use, because it could otherwise be drones. Then we switch hard from economy into military, and we can afford more military at that point as a result because we have a stronger economy.
This build places tech on the same equation; don't get it until you plan to use it, because it could otherwise be drones. Then switch hard into tech, getting upgrades / drops / infestors / whatever. Because we delayed it for economy, we can end up with more.
Like other extreme ideas, it may not in itself be viable in the long run, but it may help us to find the boundary more easily. Or not
I am fascinated to see whether and how this develops.
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It should be noted that the unique part in the build is the opening. The follow up can be adapted at will - if anything, this build is hugely flexible depending on what you scout from the opponent, as you commit to a tech path late in the game.
If you scout mass Mech (say, Thor + BluFlame), it´s easy to just start mass pumping Roaches. Also, if you feel as if you need to respond to something unorthodox, aborting the build and dropping gas, at say, 32 food in instead of 40, is very much doable.
Going ling, bling, infestor + drops + nydus is not mandatory. (Although Baneling drops are so ridiculously effective, especially at the lower levels where I am parked (plat-diamond), that it would just seem silly not to use them.)
A side note that hasn´t been noted much in the thread: Much of the weakness of Zerg lies in that there are so many ways of killing us off early using cheeses and pushes. By giving us such a non-volatile opening, even if the opponent responds by keeping up on econ, we have gained a huge benefit by just getting into the mid game in a competitive position.
Finally, I just checked Spanishiwa´s profile on Sc2Ranks, and he seems to be doing more than OK. He´s currently ranked World 63 and NA 25 in Grandmaster. Not too shabby for a newcomer.
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the double ups in this build are what make it strong - especially against protoss. They ae also the bit that people like me forget because way too busy managing queens creep and basic macro - especially as at that point you have just placed your gas down so your mineral income is lower briefly (12 drones!) and it also seems to be right on an attack window against protoss (ie they are attackign you with colossus). IE i find the drones i want to replenish end up becoming lings
if you get attacked before they are going the first attack is kinda tough for me to deal with ... with my gigantic 60 apm. Great build though ... this is how i wanted to play z when i first started ... never knew double ups made such a huge difference - cant wait to play with p and t with this knowledge lol.
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On April 19 2011 18:46 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 17:43 Morfildur wrote:On April 19 2011 17:31 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 19 2011 17:28 Morfildur wrote:On April 19 2011 17:16 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: on spanish' stream yesterday against a very high level terran, it was visible what some of the pro's stated often before: This build won't work at very high level that good. The terran mass expanded and had no problem taking down nydusses in time, he detected them too quickly and spanish wasted a lot of mins and gas for nydus. Also the T spread out his units to take nydus/drops down quickly. He then moved to drop harrass until he got that 10+ tanks terran death ball. Seems at a certain level (very high), players have very quick reaction times and excellent minimap awareness, nydus gets useless pretty much. This is quite logical, as you can't "improve" nydus play by your skill. A nydus attack executed by a gold player is similar effective as executed by a high level player. Its success depends on opponents skill to detect and react quickly, so nydus effectivity gets weaker the more skilled your opponent is and you have no way to make nydus more strong by your own skill.
Ofc the concept of mineral heavy opening is not bound that much to nydus play, but if you invest in a lot of queens, nydus is important to get agressive with mass queens. Without nydus/drop, a good part of your army (queens) is defense only, which is a strategic weakness. There is actually a big difference in how lowlevel and highlevel players use nydus worms. 1. Often Highlevel players place multiple worms in different locations at the same time. 2. Highlevel players place the worm while distracting the opponent with a few speedlings (harder to spot the worm when there is a big, blinking dot on your minimap). 3. Highlevel players have a better eye for vison radius of buildings and can find small gaps that don't have vision. 4. Highlevel players can use worms as a distraction while using baneling drops or speedling drops. Without seeing the replay i can't tell if it was a buildorder loss or a gameplay loss, so i can't comment on that. Sure better players also use nydus a bit better, but in general he has a good point. Also, your first point, that Highlevel players place multiple worms in different locations at the same time... err how many nydus entrances do you think one should build? This seems like bullshit ;p I don't have the links, but i saw IIRC 2 casts where spanishiwa built 2 nydus tunnels and used both effectively. Also, ages ago (meaning 2-4 month), there was a game casted by day9 where a player used 2 nydus tunnels extremely effective for a mainly ultralisk based army. Think about it: Against 1 nydus, you can pull workers... Against 2 you have to pull a part of your army back, so you are out of position and more vulnerable for an attack at another position. And if you fail to spot even one of them you have a whole army behind your lines destroying your production facilities and you can't even counter because it can move back almost instantly. I understand that nydus worms are expensive, but they always force a player to react. You have to kill it, otherwise it can kill you in seconds. You can just pull workers against 2 nydus worms aswell. you usually have at least around 20 workers in your base and only about 8-10 can attack at once against a nydus anyway, so there should be enough for 2.
Darkforce is 100% correct in that workers can kill not just 1, but 2 nydus worms. Also, the speed and awareness of the highest level players make it far easier for them to react in time to thwart the worms. There are a few factors that complicate the matter however, that some may overlook about nydus worms.
Analyzing the cost of Nydus Worms
On the surface Nydus worms are extremely expensive, but I'm going to attempt to make the case that their relative cost actually decreases as the zerg army grows larger. Furthermore once zerg is maxed, his options for getting value from his resources become more limited, therefore the supply cap effectively increases the value of nydus.
Example 1: 50 - 80 supply + Show Spoiler + At this stage the zerg is probably on 2 bases, perhaps getting a 3rd.
His army might only consist of: 10 roaches, 20 splings, for a cost of 1250m/250g.
To get a nydus + worm 250m/300g, so 20% the mineral and 120% the gas cost of his army.
The relative cost of going nydus here is huge, as compared to army value. You'd actually be spending more gas on the nydus play than your army. This is the all-in scenario that you sometimes would see used versus a Protoss that has walled in a fast expansion with cannons and does not have vision of his entire main. For most other scenarios going nydus is only crippling the value of your army.
Example 2: 100 - 150 supply + Show Spoiler + At this stage the zerg is probably on 3 bases, perhaps getting a 4th.
His army might consist of: 25 roaches (1875/625), 10 corruptor (1500/1000), 3 infestor (300/450) for a cost of 3675m/2075g.
To get a nydus + worm 250m/300g, so 7% the mineral and 14% the gas cost of his army.
We can see here, that even building two nydus networks and double nydus worming (for 14% minerals, 28% gas cost of army), the relative cost of nydusing is far less than in Example 1.
So while example 1 was a risky near all-in, the costs involved for example 2 become more manageable.
Example 3: 200 supply + Show Spoiler + At this stage the zerg is probably on 4 - 6 bases (if he's fortunate)
His army might consist of (admittedly a gas rich army, but feasible): 6 Ultralisk (1800/1200) 80 Speedling (2000/0) 10 Infestors (1000/1500) 10 Hydralisk (1000/500)
total: 5800 minerals, 3200 gas
To get a nydus + worm 250m/300g, so 4% the mineral and 9% the gas cost of his army.
Add in the fact that the zerg is maxed and banked resources are hard to utilize effieciently, nydus starts to become more and more attractive. Multiple nydus'es have the potential to provide a lot of value, leveraging the strength of the zerg army, by simply getting them to where they can do the most damage, as well as allowing them to more effectively retreat.
Some thoughts on multiple (simultaneous) nydus worms
First let me quote the BroodWar beta champion, and chief game designer of Riot Games (League of Legends), Zileas, a brilliant RTS mind whom I've had several discussions with over the years.
"Attention is a resource" -Zileas
Much like Zileas's favorite tactic of storm dropping mineral lines, nydus worms have the effect of forcing a reaction by your opponent. Multiple worms force multiple reactions. Multiple worms in different locations, spawning at the same time, degrade your opponent's attention exponentially. The payoff here is that the zerg spends far less attention in creating the worms, than the opponent has to spend to deal with them.
You can say that at the highest level, players can deal with worms no problem, but conversely high level zergs could also be able to capitalize on the distraction better than lower level zergs, so this skill level argument might cancel each other.
Nydus trickery, and cost effectiveness
As Darkforce has stated, even 2 nydus can be taken down by workers. There are several techniques that can be employed to reduce that likelihood however. I think these tactics are too often dismissed or ignored when people simply think about nydus as a "gimmick".
- positioning nydus in locations where fewer harvesters could attack it, such as adjacent to buildings, and/or combined with multiple nydus adjacent to each other to reduce surface area even further.
- the zerg can obfuscate the mini-map by filling it full of either overlords, muta, etc... before spawning the worms. If a group of muta are flying around harassing, and 8 overlords are hovering over different parts of the enemy's vision, he can no longer easily spot the spawning nydus worm using the mini-map alone.
- A zerg can also force his nydus worms to spawn by using air units, or drops to create a "safe zone" that also has the effect of reducing the enemy's vision. For example, it is common for muta to pick off buildings on the outskirts of the enemy's base. Once these buildings are destroyed, the zerg can leave 1 muta behind for vision, move his mutas somewhere else, then spawn the nydus(s) in the "cleared" location with relative ease. Ovie drop attacks can work similarly. Back to the muta scenario, for remote bases defended by turrets and a planetary fortress, the scvs are powerless to stop the nydus, as the nydus can be spawned out of range of the PF, causing the scvs to be pulled to kill it, only to be sniped by the muta flock if they approach.
- Finally lets look at the cost effectiveness of a nydus worm when 8 workers are pulled from the line to kill it. If 8 workers lose 30 seconds of mining time killing a nydus worm, on an unsaturated base, they are losing (8x20) 160 minerals. But as seen in many games involving nydus, where workers kill the nydus, too many workers are often pulled, and/or the workers do not immediately return to mining (perhaps the zerg harasses/attacks in another location to cause this). If 12 workers spend 60 seconds, that is 480 minerals lost. So we can see that even "failed" nydus attempts can often cause economic damage.
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I often wonder about using infested terrans from the low ground to guard a nydus against workers against a protoss forge FE. I just am not sure you can get nydus and infestors in time...
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I like how some pros are so against this, and yet spanishiwa beats a lot of pros on his stream.
User was warned for this post
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Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 00:46 Johnny_Vegas wrote:On April 19 2011 18:46 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 19 2011 17:43 Morfildur wrote:On April 19 2011 17:31 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 19 2011 17:28 Morfildur wrote:On April 19 2011 17:16 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: on spanish' stream yesterday against a very high level terran, it was visible what some of the pro's stated often before: This build won't work at very high level that good. The terran mass expanded and had no problem taking down nydusses in time, he detected them too quickly and spanish wasted a lot of mins and gas for nydus. Also the T spread out his units to take nydus/drops down quickly. He then moved to drop harrass until he got that 10+ tanks terran death ball. Seems at a certain level (very high), players have very quick reaction times and excellent minimap awareness, nydus gets useless pretty much. This is quite logical, as you can't "improve" nydus play by your skill. A nydus attack executed by a gold player is similar effective as executed by a high level player. Its success depends on opponents skill to detect and react quickly, so nydus effectivity gets weaker the more skilled your opponent is and you have no way to make nydus more strong by your own skill.
Ofc the concept of mineral heavy opening is not bound that much to nydus play, but if you invest in a lot of queens, nydus is important to get agressive with mass queens. Without nydus/drop, a good part of your army (queens) is defense only, which is a strategic weakness. There is actually a big difference in how lowlevel and highlevel players use nydus worms. 1. Often Highlevel players place multiple worms in different locations at the same time. 2. Highlevel players place the worm while distracting the opponent with a few speedlings (harder to spot the worm when there is a big, blinking dot on your minimap). 3. Highlevel players have a better eye for vison radius of buildings and can find small gaps that don't have vision. 4. Highlevel players can use worms as a distraction while using baneling drops or speedling drops. Without seeing the replay i can't tell if it was a buildorder loss or a gameplay loss, so i can't comment on that. Sure better players also use nydus a bit better, but in general he has a good point. Also, your first point, that Highlevel players place multiple worms in different locations at the same time... err how many nydus entrances do you think one should build? This seems like bullshit ;p I don't have the links, but i saw IIRC 2 casts where spanishiwa built 2 nydus tunnels and used both effectively. Also, ages ago (meaning 2-4 month), there was a game casted by day9 where a player used 2 nydus tunnels extremely effective for a mainly ultralisk based army. Think about it: Against 1 nydus, you can pull workers... Against 2 you have to pull a part of your army back, so you are out of position and more vulnerable for an attack at another position. And if you fail to spot even one of them you have a whole army behind your lines destroying your production facilities and you can't even counter because it can move back almost instantly. I understand that nydus worms are expensive, but they always force a player to react. You have to kill it, otherwise it can kill you in seconds. You can just pull workers against 2 nydus worms aswell. you usually have at least around 20 workers in your base and only about 8-10 can attack at once against a nydus anyway, so there should be enough for 2. Darkforce is 100% correct in that workers can kill not just 1, but 2 nydus worms. Also, the speed and awareness of the highest level players make it far easier for them to react in time to thwart the worms. There are a few factors that complicate the matter however, that some may overlook about nydus worms. Analyzing the cost of Nydus WormsOn the surface Nydus worms are extremely expensive, but I'm going to attempt to make the case that their relative cost actually decreases as the zerg army grows larger. Furthermore once zerg is maxed, his options for getting value from his resources become more limited, therefore the supply cap effectively increases the value of nydus. Example 1: 50 - 80 supply + Show Spoiler + At this stage the zerg is probably on 2 bases, perhaps getting a 3rd.
His army might only consist of: 10 roaches, 20 splings, for a cost of 1250m/250g.
To get a nydus + worm 250m/300g, so 20% the mineral and 120% the gas cost of his army.
The relative cost of going nydus here is huge, as compared to army value. You'd actually be spending more gas on the nydus play than your army. This is the all-in scenario that you sometimes would see used versus a Protoss that has walled in a fast expansion with cannons and does not have vision of his entire main. For most other scenarios going nydus is only crippling the value of your army.
Example 2: 100 - 150 supply + Show Spoiler + At this stage the zerg is probably on 3 bases, perhaps getting a 4th.
His army might consist of: 25 roaches (1875/625), 10 corruptor (1500/1000), 3 infestor (300/450) for a cost of 3675m/2075g.
To get a nydus + worm 250m/300g, so 7% the mineral and 14% the gas cost of his army.
We can see here, that even building two nydus networks and double nydus worming (for 14% minerals, 28% gas cost of army), the relative cost of nydusing is far less than in Example 1.
So while example 1 was a risky near all-in, the costs involved for example 2 become more manageable.
Example 3: 200 supply + Show Spoiler + At this stage the zerg is probably on 4 - 6 bases (if he's fortunate)
His army might consist of (admittedly a gas rich army, but feasible): 6 Ultralisk (1800/1200) 80 Speedling (2000/0) 10 Infestors (1000/1500) 10 Hydralisk (1000/500)
total: 5800 minerals, 3200 gas
To get a nydus + worm 250m/300g, so 4% the mineral and 9% the gas cost of his army.
Add in the fact that the zerg is maxed and banked resources are hard to utilize effieciently, nydus starts to become more and more attractive. Multiple nydus'es have the potential to provide a lot of value, leveraging the strength of the zerg army, by simply getting them to where they can do the most damage, as well as allowing them to more effectively retreat.
Some thoughts on multiple (simultaneous) nydus wormsFirst let me quote the BroodWar beta champion, and chief game designer of Riot Games (League of Legends), Zileas, a brilliant RTS mind whom I've had several discussions with over the years. "Attention is a resource" -Zileas Much like Zileas's favorite tactic of storm dropping mineral lines, nydus worms have the effect of forcing a reaction by your opponent. Multiple worms force multiple reactions. Multiple worms in different locations, spawning at the same time, degrade your opponent's attention exponentially. The payoff here is that the zerg spends far less attention in creating the worms, than the opponent has to spend to deal with them. You can say that at the highest level, players can deal with worms no problem, but conversely high level zergs could also be able to capitalize on the distraction better than lower level zergs, so this skill level argument might cancel each other. Nydus trickery, and cost effectivenessAs Darkforce has stated, even 2 nydus can be taken down by workers. There are several techniques that can be employed to reduce that likelihood however. I think these tactics are too often dismissed or ignored when people simply think about nydus as a "gimmick". - positioning nydus in locations where fewer harvesters could attack it, such as adjacent to buildings, and/or combined with multiple nydus adjacent to each other to reduce surface area even further. - the zerg can obfuscate the mini-map by filling it full of either overlords, muta, etc... before spawning the worms. If a group of muta are flying around harassing, and 8 overlords are hovering over different parts of the enemy's vision, he can no longer easily spot the spawning nydus worm using the mini-map alone. - A zerg can also force his nydus worms to spawn by using air units, or drops to create a "safe zone" that also has the effect of reducing the enemy's vision. For example, it is common for muta to pick off buildings on the outskirts of the enemy's base. Once these buildings are destroyed, the zerg can leave 1 muta behind for vision, move his mutas somewhere else, then spawn the nydus(s) in the "cleared" location with relative ease. Ovie drop attacks can work similarly. Back to the muta scenario, for remote bases defended by turrets and a planetary fortress, the scvs are powerless to stop the nydus, as the nydus can be spawned out of range of the PF, causing the scvs to be pulled to kill it, only to be sniped by the muta flock if they approach. - Finally lets look at the cost effectiveness of a nydus worm when 8 workers are pulled from the line to kill it. If 8 workers lose 30 seconds of mining time killing a nydus worm, on an unsaturated base, they are losing (8x20) 160 minerals. But as seen in many games involving nydus, where workers kill the nydus, too many workers are often pulled, and/or the workers do not immediately return to mining (perhaps the zerg harasses/attacks in another location to cause this). If 12 workers spend 60 seconds, that is 480 minerals lost. So we can see that even "failed" nydus attempts can often cause economic damage.
Just wanted to thank you for that really informative post, I've been trying to work nydus into my play and having this type of analysis on its relative cost and damage potential really helps. I had never even thought of placing the worms in positions with reduced surface area for workers to attack, that should really help against shutting down new expansions, squeezing them in between mineral lines and walls.
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