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On April 11 2011 22:25 aXa wrote:
The 9 pool opening in ZvP followed by
New style of late game ZvP: Zergling/baneling/infestor/ultralisk
Hello all! First let me introduce me quickly as a starcraft 2 player: My ID is aXa and i'm a 3200+ zerg master from season 1. I'm french so sorry if my english present some flaws and be sure i will appreciate if you take the time to correct my mistakes.
If you are interested in a ZvZ build, please look at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=212628
Introduction
I'm sure all of you, little lovely zerg, have noticed how hard it was to beat protoss with the standard style: Roach/hydra/corruptor. In the early game, it can be hard to hold 4 warp gate with roach and zergling (Remember ST_july vs oGsMC and the beautiful cancel expand hidden 4th gate on megalopolis and those mean forcefields ? ^^) In the late game, deathball of anykind (standard colossi gateway unit, but also voidray colossi) can rip your max army apart. Again, Idra vs Cruncher on Shakuras Plateau: I know you all Idra fan out there still sad about that game At least i am !
Furthermore, I took the time to check statistic tabs at the end of ladder games of this kind i made. And i was really surprised to see that a max zerg roach/hydra/corruptor is higher in army value (i.e. minerals/vespene gas spent) than a max deathball protoss of any kind. But as you know, zerg max still falls apart very quickly and you are able to win only if you have a superior economy and able to replenish that max army quickly. It also means that zerg with this army composition are not cost-efficient. Basically it means that you need to be economically ahead (the infamous 1 base ahead as zerg) to stay in the game.
So i was thinking a lot about this match up and i really want to figure out a new style of play to sort this situation out. My main goal was to be effective against 4 warp gate, to deal with deathballs like it was any other army (and it actually is) A part of the answer came with patch 1.3 and the fungal growth buff. But before getting into the deep of the subject, i have some general consideration to make.
General consideration
Zerg is seen as a "reactive" race. It means that if you don't scout any sort of aggression, you'd better making drone and teching like a crazy person until the push comes, then defend in a last-second fashion and finally crush your opponent with an overwhelming macro. Idra is definitely the best in this style and i cant stop admiring it. But it is quite hard to perform, because sometimes a 1 second delay on your macro can be end-gaming.
But seriously, you dear zerg fellow, didn't ever dream of a game where you dictate the rhythm, where your opponent has to react to what YOU are doing? I think it is a real important aspect of Starcraft 2 indeed: There is an indenyable psychologic advantage to be the "leader" in a game: To harass and do aggression does in fact make your opponent uncomfortable and more open to mistakes and freak-out playing. To use Day9 terms, this is "Crisis management", and it can be like a full crisis management game as zerg sometimes: A push coming? Argghh, where are my larvaa??
This lead me to my first part of this guide. Please do note that the general strategy is doable with any kind of openers. It can be with any standard BO but this one is in my opinion the very best, i'll explain why.
9 pool in ZvP
Do you ever saw Day9 daily about 9 pool in ZvZ? I practice this build a lot, i will make another guide about it because i did refine this build so much that i have now 90% win in ZvZ mu. But it's not the matter here, although the general idea came from this build. Before the explicit BO, let's talk about general stuff.
Overall aspect of 9 pool
Literally, you build a pool at 9 supply, and make some zergling when it does finish. Whereas 6 pool is a cheese, because you don't have any follow up plan but to win in the 2 following minute, 9 pool is not. It's a pressure build. It's not designed to be a build where you pray for your opponent to not scouting it, on the contrary! In fact you can do nothing but chilling at your base with your early zergling and still be well in the game. So we have a follow-up plan i will explain later, let's focus about technical things.
About maps
9 pool it's a pressure build and depends a lot of rush distance and spawning position of maps. It's a viable build but not as much economic as a hatch first. So you should consider the map you're playing on.
Maps you should avoid doing it on
-Taldarim altar -Terminus RE -Crevasse -Crossfire -Typhon -Backwater Gulch
All of them for obvious rush distance or unknown spawning position. This list does maybe look a little bit long, but it's not a big deal in ladder actually.
Typhon, Nulpar Ravin and Taldarim altar are the 3 only map on the ladder yet, and i personally vetoed Typhoon and Nulpar Ravin, which i find quite horrible for zerg.
Map you should consider 9 pool
-Xel Naga Cavern, Fairly quick rush distance. You know where your opponent is
-Shakuras Plateau: it may come as a surprise to you, but the rush distance is actually not that long AND you can know where your opponent is in time: Just send your overlord at the horizontal spawn position. If it is not there, well, just go to the diagonal one with your zergling !
-Metalopolis: Check close air position, look at the timing of the scouting probe. If it is early, they are in close ground position. If late, diagonal position !
-Shattered temple: Same here as metalopolis.
-Quadrant Delta: If you are a crazy person who didn't veto this map like me, just send an overlord to a diagonal position, and send a scouting worker (before your zergling finishes) to a second spot if you don't find it with your overlord. By elimination you'll now where your opponent is.
- Slag Pit: Same as quadrant delta.
To be sure where your opponent is on 4 player map, you have to pull out a drone a 10/10 supply after building your overlord, and send it where your overlord is not going to.
The early phase of 9 pool
There is different scenario about this build, depending how your opponent is reacting to your 9 pool. You can adapt your 9 pool depending when your opponent scouts you. Usually, he scouts just after building his pylon and get into your base when your pool is half-way done (on 2 player map or close ground position).
They are two way of doing the 9 pool at that point:
9/10 Pool 10/10 overlord --> 6 zergling
or
9/10 pool 10/10 overlord 11/10 drone ---> 4 zergling
I recommand in a bo3 for example, to do 9 pool 6 zergling the first time, and then 4 zergling the second time. In fact 4 zergling is enough because it's the max number which can hit a single building with standard wall-off
Against a wall-off
Usually, he does it by adding a forge followed by a canon.
-If he reacts immediately, the forge will be early enough that when you come to his front, he will already have a canon finishing. Then just pull back and congrats yourself: You took the entire map control for a while, forcing forge and canon !
-He reacted a little bit late, he has a gateway, a forge, and the canon is too late: With your zergling, FOCUS THE GATEWAY. 9 time out 10, you'll destroy it, and let me tell you how bad is it for your opponent ! The canon will finish just after that so just pull back, take the watchtower and make sure the scouting drone is not building canon near your main or expand. Complete map control again and delayed tech for the poor protoss.
Against a standard protoss build
The guy didn't realize that zergling was coming, and didn't change a thing in his BO.
Surprisingly it is not alway the best thing which can happen to you. But still, there is different way you can exploit that. I personally aim the pylon if there is only one powering the gateway. If he does not react in time, the pylon will fall before the first zealot finishes. Then, just go for the probes and be cautious to not be surrounded ! But often time, toss take some probe to chase your zergling away his pylon: It is good for you: just go for the probe. Why good? because 1: He usually does not take ALL the probes, so you can snipe more of them (less dps on zergling) 2: The probes are not near mineral line: harder to surround your zergling, more mining time is lost. Economical damage are great and will make his build less powerful.
About the zealot: If this ferocious warrior is out when your zergling are still alive, just ignore him IF zealot and probes are together. If the zealot is isolated and if you can get a surround, just go for the kill ! And aim the probe later
Against a forge expand
The canon will often be up before you can slip through with your zergling. So no damage at all and he will probably fast expand. It's still okay for you: Don't put any drone in gas, take a second and a third expand immediately. Then do the usual following i will describe next. You can maybe force more than 1 canon with your initial pressure zergling, it can be useful. You know that protoss is not gonna move anytime soon so take map control and drone hard.
The good following
A pressure build is useless if you don't have any good following. Some people may think you are too far behind if you don't make any damage. It is not true at all. Here is the most decent following I found:
9/10: Pool 10/10: Overlord --> Depends of the map: Scouting to eliminate a spawning position, or send him near your opponent base to do some late scout 10/18: 6 zergling 13/18: queen 15 and 16/18: Drone 17/18: Overlord ---> Send him over your natural to check any later proxy 19/18: Queen followed by extractor
19/18 Is a very delicate moment. You have to do it precisely in this order: Your first queen pop out, launch a second queen, larva inject immediately, put an extractor you don't cancel. You will have EXACTLY the money to do so ! You cannot build the extractor first because your queen will be delayed. The difficult part of this timing is because your zergling are reaching protoss front at this exact moment, so you have to be really quick an efficient if you don't wanna screw this up
Drone up to 24/26 Put 3 drone in gas Keep larva inject with Queen 1 Put down a total of 3 creep tumor with queen 2, relentless creep spread! Drone up to 26/26 Lay down your first expand Launch zergling speed with 100 first gas
After this, it is designed for my later strategy game, which is zergling/baneling/infestor. So if you don't wanna to do this, feel free to do otherwise. It matches with other compo as well.
After zergling speed
Launch a evolution chamber when you hav 50 gas stockpiled or so. It will finishes around 100 gas, so make your +1 melee attack. With the 100 next gas, go T2. I will explain what happens after T2 but it will belong to the mid game strategy part.
Why not +1 armor?
Well, you're maybe thinking: I'm gonna have a lot of zergling, he has a forge, he will make zealot +1 attack two-shoting my zergling so i really need this +1 armor. It's a good way to see things, but there is a better response to this.
Armor cost 150 gas to 100 melee. You'd better save this 50 gas to build your baneling nest just after this. Baneling are far better at dealing with zealot than +1 armor zergling, believe me :D
What now?
You should be around 6 min into the game, and around 30 pop, mainly drone and queen and maybe few zergling left. Do you noticed anything? Oh yes, first, you are pretty much at the same point as any zerg doing basic stuff drone-wise and expand-wise.You have your 2 queen, but notice 3 creep tumor with continue larva inject thanks to this early second queen. Creep spread is important in every game! But more so, now it is time to check is your opponent is not MAKING A 4 GATE.
Dealing with 4 gate
It may be counter-intuitive, but protoss usually thinks that you are behind because of this "rush" (maybe they think it was a 6 pool? So they tend to think that a 4 warp gate will end you. Anyway, protoss still making a lot of random 4 gate in ladder so better to be ready!
Step 1: Remember that overlord near your enemy base? time to sacrificial overlord for scouting purpose ! Step 2: Did you noticed any sign of 4 gate? Yes? Then begin to make a TON of zergling (double queen for a while, it will be easy) Step 3: Focus the probe or the pylon. No probe, no pylon, no 4 gate. Step 4: Don't let the mean protoss get stuck in a narrow path. Build a evolution chamber to block your back mineral line path. Step 5: Too many zealots ? make banelings, and engage only on creep with them!
Usually, the 4 gate ends here, because 20 to 25 zergling, soon +1, are more than enough to clean that up. It means that the game is pretty much over to your favor.
Dealing with expand
What is really great about this build, is that at this 7 minute magic mark, your opponent is doing or a 4 warp gate or an expand. They already got the forge, so why not use that do plant an expo? They are right, but you are in an incredible spot right now. Whatever he does, the correct response on your behalf is the same: Do a ton of zergling, something like 30 overall. We already saw that it is the way to clean up 4 gate, but it is also the way to delay the expand for a while! Run to your enemy expansion, he will have 3 to 4 unit maybe outside his base. Catch them if you can (sentries first), cancel the expand, and stay outside. He will have to make more unit, more canon to be able to expand properly. Don't use any baneling to do that. They are yet to slow off creep. Meanwhile, you are droning like a crazy person
Mid game strategy: Following the 9 pool with speedling/baneling/infestor
How to use your gas all game long:
Remember, you are now halfway T2, you have been on 1 gas all the time, using it for speed, +1 attack, baneling nest, maybe some baneling to stay alive, then lair.
Before it finishes, take all your 4 gas geyser available. What to do now? Before even considering getting infestor, you have to plan your late game. It means upgrade, so use your gas in the following order, as soon as you get the required amount:
-During T2, you should be able to start +1 armor. Make another evolution chamber when it is close to finish -Start baneling speed -Then +2 attack and +2 armor -Then infestation pit, -Then energy upgrade -3 infestor will be enough. -Neural parasite, will describe the use later -Let's get the hive -Adrenale gland, remember that upgrade? Rush for it! -Then +3 attack and +3 armor upgrade -Ultralisk den baby !
I will come back about upgrade, infestor and ultralisk topic.
How to use your zergling all game long
Zergling are the nastiest and fatest unit of the game. They are very strong with upgrade and give you an insane map control. After 9 pool damage, go take both watchtower, let 1 zergling in front of protoss base to check move and expand, and 1 zergling to your own expand to deny any probe block. After canceling 4 gate way or delaying expand, the protoss should be on the defensive now, so go take out the rocks of your gold. You should lay down your first macro hatch followed by your third at the gold. During all game, you should have a group of zergling ready to run by into the protoss main whenever he seems to move out. Having the watch tower and isolated zergling spotting is crucial.
Some general consideration about zergling and baneling composition
I think most of zerg thought that zergling is not even a viable option in ZvP, because of zealots. Maybe that's why we are attending a lot of roach usage, because they are overall not bad against gateway units. But zergling are actually far more effective than roach against gateway, as long as they are upgraded. Baneling does a good job against them too. The combination is really strong and more important: cheap. They are cheap in mineral, but don't forget they are not cheap when it comes to larva ! Make sure to have 1 macro hatch per 2 base, including your main. You need a maximum of 4 queen, 3 are usually enough if your mechanics are good. Usually, 4 base including 1 gold + 2 macro hatch for a 6 hatch total and 3 queens are enough to produce infinity zergling.
The mid game threat: force field
In a standard game, a 2 base push will come on protoss behalf. He will have a lot of gateway units, maybe 1 or 2 colossi, and a lot of sentries of course. They are few rule to consider to hold this push with ease:
-First, you don't have any way to break force field now, so don't overcommit with your zergling and baneling. If you see him make a donut around him, just draw back, and wait for the FF to finish. Then go again, until he doesn't have enough energy.
-Engage in open space, don't let him block himself against a wall or behind your mineral line ! Remember this 3 creep tumor? I hope you spread it out all over the map. You should have creep in front of your third when the timing push comes.
-Don't forget you're producing zergling, the fatest unit to hatch ! If you don't feel confident, just draw back a little, make a ton of zergling and come for the final blow. I often sacrifice a base (usually the 3rd) in order to take no risk about this push.
Infestor: how to use it
-Fungal growth is a very nice spell to say the least, with 2 main usage. First, it does some nice additional damage, helping your overall dps. Second, to lock down the protoss ball. I use it in two different way: If i see a threatening stack of zealot, feel free to lock them while your zergling are aiming for stalker. Of course, locking down stalker is the goal you want to achieve every time: Huge damage on them and no more micro: let the zergling and baneling finish the job. You want to use fungal on colossi as well. Remember hit and run micro on colossi can be devastating for your zergling. Better to be sure they don't do that ! -Neural parasite is a huge help when you get it. First, it allow you to mindcontrol colossi, diminishing the real threat to your zergling army. But the most useful thing you can do whith it, is to STEP with the Colossi on Force field ! Yeah baby ! This a trick i use when i don't have ultra yet
Infestor have weaknesses
-Of course high templar with feedback (unless you are able to mincontrol one of them, and then feedback the others! Never managed to do it though) -Phoenix. I will talk later about stargate build in a overall fashion. But in any case, if you're opponent is going phenix, he's gonna able to snipe your infestor whenever he wants all over the map. Don't freak out. The correct response is to get burrow, and to unburrow until the real battle occur.
Late game strategy and resource usage
You now are T3 with full zergling/baneling/infestor upgrade. Get the crucial unit who fits so well in this compo: Ultralisk. When you already have enough infestor (5-6), you don't have much gas to spend on units. So ultra are not gonna be economically hard to pull out. They are overall a good unit (3-3 upgrade remember? ) but the main usage are to step on force field, making your army unstoppable by any deathball ! But don't EVER overcommit with those ultra! It's not because you can produce 10 ultra you should do so. I already lost a game by doing this. The key is to remain cost efficient, ultra in big number are not. Zergling are !
Tech switch
If your opponent realize how crucial it is to get high templar against this composition, it is very easy for you to tech switch. The best choice is to get roach: Get a double warren and upgrade speed and burrow movement as well as burrow, and start +1 range attack.
Don't forget 1 good storm can annihilate any zergling/ baneling stack easily. Roaches with burrow doesn't really care about that. When templar are dead, switch back to zergling. Don't forget templar without KA are less threatening and efficient to warp. So you can easily take your opponent out that way.
Dealing with air
I'm quite sure you're asking the following question to yourself: What about air? Well guy's, you simply doesn't care about air at any stage of the game.
-Early stargate opening, phenix harass: Guess what, you have an evolution chamber for sporecrawler and already 2 queens. Just produce more to be sure he cannot snipe them. He literally gives up about ground control, so you should be able to deny any expand with your zergling. (Graviton beam zergling is quite a waste Keep expand and drone hard. He can't deny a hatchery, and a pushes is not about to come anytime soon. Big hard outmacro! Just remember what i said about infestor: burrow !
-Void-ray/Colossi: Void ray are effective against ultra, that's all. Your ground army is gonna rip colossi and gateway unit so hard, you can just run into your opponent base and kill him. Void ray don't do well against zergling, who are the real damage dealer. When ground protoss army is dead, switch to hydralisk to finish void ray if the numerous fungal growth haven't done the job yet. If he goes into your base with the void ray, you will be able to clean his entire base far more quickly than him, and at this stage of the game, you'll have enough base to build hydralisk elsewhere.
Using drops and nydus
A good protoss player will soon understand how important it is for him to constrict space with building. The correct answer for you is to go for baneling drop on top of his mineral line (In an epic fashion) and nydus him with zergling runby. Don't be scared of suiciding 20 banes over a nexus or a canon line, it basically cost nothing for you. Moreover, when you already got all the upgrade you need, some infestor and ultra, you don't really have gas to spend. So drop and nydus who are gas expansive does well fit with this timing, around 20 minutes into the game.
Cost effectiveness
This chart is related to the replay ZvPStandard2, see bellow. ZvPStandard2
Do you see that chart? It shows that my army value, i.e. resource spent in army. It is never really up above his. Still, i'd win this game with no contest. It means that zerg can be cost efficient and can deal with max protoss army. But ONLY if you don't make mistake like mass ultra, mass muta, mass infestor. The main unit has to remain zergling, with enough baneling to clean the zealots.
Of course, a quick draw is better than a long talk, so here are replays. I 9 pool in every game.
About macro, mechanics and APM
It's important to note that this mass zergling play require a lot of larva inject, so overall good mechanics and APM. I was sharing this style of play with a diamand player and he really wasnt able to produce enough out of his hatch, due to insufficient APM. I'm far to be a beast, but it looks like 100 or 120 APM is the minimal to perform well with it.
Replay illustration
General advise to watch this replay: In the early game, put production tab and everyone tab. When 9 pool is done and when i get to macro mode, switch to unit tab and to my cam to check mechanics.
Doing damage at protoss front
ZvP9pool This replay is literally my first game ever using 9 pool and zergling baneling infestor. On shattered temple on close position. I do a lot of damage at his front, the game shows that even good force field is not that strong against this compo. Not the best game anyway.
Dealing with 4 warp gate and doing bane drop
ZvP4GateDrop In this replay on Shakuras Plateau, we spawn on cross position. He scouts me early so i choose to do only the 4 ling pool. He does not wall of, certainly thinking that the zealot will pop up in time. I do very few damage to his probe, ignoring the zealot. He follow it by a 4 warp gate push i held with some trouble because i wasn't able to scout it in time. After helding it, i could cancel his expand for a little while. Still doing well, i end the game by a beautiful bane drop at his expand and his main. It forces him to move out for a last chance attack, very interesting to see when it comes to minimize the force field strenght. Overall not a very good replay either, but shows how it is crucial to hatch quickly units, which only zergling can do.
ZvP4GateBaneDrop2 In this game, we spawn close air position on Metalopolis. He scouts me early and my 9 pool does no damage whatsoever. Followed by a 4 gate i held quite easily this time. Unable to delay his expand, i go into macro-mode until he does a 2 base push with a nice deathball. Even with poor army management, the battle is pretty uncontested. The game ends with the laughable baneling drop & rage quit ever
Dealing with air or forge expand
ZvPAir In this game, we spawn cross position on shattered temple. He opened up with a forge expand, denying any 9 pool damage. I decide whatsoever to work on the gold expand rocks asap. He follows up with a double stargate phoenix harass. Picking up queens and drone, sometimes infestor. I just ignore him and do my stuff. It ends up 3 base against 5 for me. A big battle occur in the center of the map while i'm doing 2 successful baneling drop out of 3. I Rip his ground army and 11 void ray stayed alive. I choose to ignore them and go for counter attack. While they are dealing with my expands, i rip his base appart and switching slowly to hydralisk. The game ends before i could engage void ray because he had no building left
ZvPAir2 Horizontal spawn on Shaluras Plateau, this one shows how easy it is to ignore void ray and transitioning into hydra to finish them. He pretty much raged at the start of the game, so sorry if i taunt him at the end
Dealing with deathball, standard games
ZvPStandard On Xel naga cavern, this one show a no-wall of but no damage done whatsoever. The game goes on standard. I let him took my 3rd because i wasnt sure i could take him off. We are at the same eco and unit level (before some baneling drops hehe) when his deathball comes, but the battle is pretty one-sided. After that i mass up and go for the kill.
ZvPStandard2 On Xel naga cavern again, this one shows a fake 4 gate into expand. It shows how fragile a 3 gate expand his against this build: If i had let a spotting zergling in order to see the expand, i could attack with a lot of zergling against 4 unit. Middle game battle is pretty laughable, as my zergling and baneling comes in a congo line due to some good force field. Still one sided.I mass up and go for the kill.
Dealing with stargate opening
[url=http://www.megaupload.com/?d=YZLE1RP2[/url]
In this replay, my friend and I spawn close position on Metalopolis. I open 14/14 and he goes stargate first and remain unscouted until the 4 phenix pop out. I counter attack with zergling baneling and the game goes on.
Dealing with fast expand and high templar
[url=http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KCMFIFRM]ZvPFastExpandHT[/url]
In this replay, we spawn on close position on Shakuras Plateau. As i go 14/14, he does a fast expand. The game goes on with some DT and high templar action. Check the unit lost tab all game long !
Macro hatch against agressive protoss
[url=http://www.megaupload.com/?d=A59ZM4LW]ZvP+1timing[/url]
In this replay, my opponent goes for a 3 rax +1 attack into expand and start with heavy agression. I rely on a fast macro hatch to hold off, which gives me a lead I secure by taking 2 more expand and finishing the game a few minute later.
2 gate opening and macro game
[url=http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MMIJIZ0S]http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MMIJIZ0S[/url]
Map is Xel Naga cavern. My clan mate open 2 gate as i go standard 14/14. I hold it with 2 queen 2 spine and few zergling. He follows his build with a fast expand, so i take a third at the 10 min mark and macro as hard as i can. He takes his third as well and start a compo of gateway unit along with archon (mine is zergling baneling infestor of course). As the macro race goes on, i pull off some baneling drop on his mineral line, right before the first big battle at 18 min mark. A successful hydra switch, some good neural parasite on archons along with bane drop on top of his army allow me to clear his entire army. My army is now mainly hydralisk, so i decide to do a nydus worm in his main as he tried to cancel a naked expand. I managed to destroy a significant part of his twilight council tech building. I reinforce my unit compo with roaches, as he starts to produce colossi. But the out macro job is done, and when the final battle occure, my corruptor are out to give me victory.
[url=http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JJBSLDVQ]http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JJBSLDVQ[/url]
Map is Xel Naga cavern. I know my opponent will open 2 gate again, so i decide to do a fake 9 pool (i produce drone instead of ling) into one base roaches. I counter his zealot easily and try to do damage at his front, but it fails miserably. The first push comes quite early this time, at the 10 min mark, right when my third is half done. I hold with roaches and zergling, giving me an edge in army and a good timing window to macro as my third is now up and running. A second push is taken as my army is now a mix of roaches and baneling. I'm now on 4 base and i manage to delay his third until the 19 min mark. I put the nail in the coffin with baneling drop. His colossi are not enough to hold my army composed of roaches, baneling-drop, infestor along with some 3-3-3 upgrade. Victory is mine.
Blog
[url=http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=283121]http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=283121[/url]
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Guy's i am really bad at making a post looks beautiful. Can someone help me to make it right? BBcode won't obey me T_T
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It's a very long and well detailed post.
I am not certain with the BBcode sorry!
When you get time, spoiler tags would really clean up the post and make it much more approachable.
Personally from the protoss perspective, I know that I can hold a 8/9pool on any positions (except maybe 8pool slag pits close position) with a normal cyber/gate wall. Just drop a pylon in the hole, cancel it then attack with the zealot and 4-5 probes.
Zerg IS behind at this point. Are you dead or allin? Surely not.
I love the baneling/ultra lategame. It's super effective and forces protoss into a very defensive mindset. Very nice writeup, though not very new for everyone.
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I'm very unsure about standard 12-13 gateway chronoed zealot timing. Does it come before lings on Xel naga (for example) with perfect execution for both sides? If the the protoss chronoes the second zealot what are the chances of killing the gateway? 9/10? This is very unlikely for me. We can test it on EU. Cheerio.762.
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Please do check the replay, i think they are example of any situation: Killing gateway 9 pool, Doing nothing 9 pool, Killing probe 9 pool. Etc.
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On the BB code, you need to make sure everything is propperly nested IE [red][b]hello[/b][/red] instead of [b][red]hello[/b][/red] . I could also advise you to put [center] tags around important headings, it just looks nice . And don't use red for headers, using just bold is enough, use it only if you really want to make a firm statement, look at the warning thread for a good example about that.
I will edit this post once I read through the guide, but I have a horrid feeling that this isn't going to work on tal darim or any large macro map. Then again Im not much of a super early agression zerg, so I'll have to be proven wrong.
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You will edit the post to make it nicer? I will be very grateful. I tried myself of course but i'm not really used to :/
Please do read the entire post, because i'm pretty sure i specified everything needed, like maps, timing, etc.
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ok first of all i realy like the general idea of zergling bainling infestor ultra, i did it a lot before the patch and abandoned it due to some realy hard to deal with timing pushes, but i think thanks to the infestor buff its viable again.
about the 9 pool an intelligent toss can hold it by just going gate-core without using the gateway (its true for 10 pools i tested them quite a lot and a 9 pool isnt that much earlyer) the 9 pool is very weak to a toss pushing out with his first 3-4 units, since you usually cant have speed in time and are forced to cripple your economy if you want to survive, so id adjust your build by just going pool gas +1 exe but well its a decision of style
about the general build:
i realy love ultralisks between 100-150 food they rip through everything a toss can have.
about the hts
bainlings are suprisingly good against hts, since a speedbaneling can roll through a storm and survive it anytime.
lastly: to my experience, it can be suprisingly hard to deal with a big push 4gate at lets say 7:00 or 7:30, since your enemy will only move out in a bigger blob that zerglings will have a realy hard time to deal with. also +1 4gates are a little hard to hold.
if your enemy is intelligent, you wont be able to denie a 3 gate expand if he playes carefully, since zergling-banelings are efficiently held of. especcialy if your enemy waits 1 aditional round of units.
finaly i could imagine it is very hard to deal with a fast colossus push of 2 bases, since only fungal wont be enough to hold it, zergling bainling is just roasted fast, the timing of mindcontrol will be realy close, since you also need to have the energy. BUT itll be survivable if you have realy smoth timing and play.
aditionally i found out that adding like 5-10 hydras usually doesnt hurt if you saw an airbuild, since going air will delay his colosses enough for you to go hydralisks in between
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This looks like a nice strategy. I've been very sceptica l about using banelings against Protoss. But I can certainly see the use it in such a combo like this. Ill give it a go!
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Great post, will def try this out !! I have been struggling big time against P for a while now. Bookmarked!
Just a question on the Baneling's Nest, do you drop it down straight at 50 gas after the +1 Melee or is it only when you scout the 4gate is coming?
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From my experience,
-3-4 unit push is not hard to hold at all, you can spot them early and just make enough zergling with larva inject, or even better: a spinecrawler.
-The 9 pool timing does allow your zergling to enter into his base (chronoboosted zealot ofc) on shakuras plateau cross spot, as my ZvP4GateDrop shows
-I will submit another replay with a late 4 gate push. As you'll see, it's easy to hold.
-I agree with 3 gate expand, but the thing his: he has to wait another round of unit. Every second counts right ? (actually 30 IG sec for gateway cd)
-A fast colossus 2 base just die straight to zergling baneling, even if there is no infestor, as lot of my replays shows.
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@Zpm: drop it even if you don't scout 4 warp gate. Its like a preventive roach warren: The building doesn't cost much, and you'll never now when you really need it.
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On April 11 2011 22:47 aXa wrote: Please do check the replay, i think they are example of any situation: Killing gateway 9 pool, Doing nothing 9 pool, Killing probe 9 pool. Etc. Specify plz which one involves wallin with chronoed zealot with good execution on protoss side? This is quite important because if 9 pool doesnt come before the zealot your build would be much better if you go standard gas-pool or hatch first. The 9 pool is commonly accepted to be an inferior opening to zerg. Those sharing this oppinion are numerous, do you want them all to watch all your replays to make it out or is it your task to cover this point?
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@Cheerio: ZvP4GateDrop @Chaosvuistje: I did what you said about the red nest, but it doesn't seems to work? I don't get what i did wrong :/
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On April 11 2011 23:08 aXa wrote: @Cheerio: ZvP4GateDrop
From the description of the replay
In this replay on Shakuras Plateau, we spawn on cross position. He scouts me early so i choose to do only the 4 ling pool. He does not wall of, certainly thinking that the zealot will pop up in time.
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How does this work against air builds? I imagine a protoss exploiting your lack of hydralisks could get pretty annoying.
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I don't really understand what do you want to know.
I recap what i'm saying to be sure we understand each other: -If he makes a gateway+ cyb core and chronoboost the first zealot, the zergling can come in before the zealot pop and finish up the wall. (replay ZvP4GateDrop) - If he makes a pylone to complete the wall off, the zealot pop usually inside the base so you can kill the gateway. If he pops outside, 6 ling are enough to kill him right? So kill the gateway anyway.
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@Duttroach: I made an entire section, i posted 2 replay about air. Please, i can't repeat everything everytime.
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I like how you spell "gas" as "gaz", don't ever change that
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Lol sorry, in french it is gaz, so i made a mistake
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Also, "Quadrant Delta" is more accurately translated as "Delta Quadrant"
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Trying to fix your code... i think it looks good now... click the spoiler
+ Show Spoiler [fixedPost] +On April 11 2011 22:25 aXa wrote: The 9 pool opening in ZvP followed by
New style of late game ZvP: Zergling/baneling/infestor/ultralisk
Hello all! First let me introduce me quickly as a starcraft 2 player: My ID is aXa and i'm a 3200+ zerg master from season 1. I'm french so sorry if my english present some flaws and be sure i will appreciate if you take the time to correct my mistakes. Introduction I'm sure all of you, little lovely zerg, have noticed how hard it was to beat protoss with the standard style: Roach/hydra/corruptor. In the early game, it can be hard to hold 4 warp gate with roach and zergling (Remember ST_july vs oGsMC and the beautiful cancel expand hidden 4th gate on megalopolis and those mean forcefields ? ^^) In the late game, deathball of anykind (standard colossi gateway unit, but also voidray colossi) can rip your max army apart. Again, Idra vs Cruncher on Shakuras Plateau: I know you all Idra fan out there still sad about that game At least i am ! Furthermore, I took the time to check statistic tabs at the end of ladder games of this kind i made. And i was really surprised to see that a max zerg roach/hydra/corruptor is higher in army value (i.e. minerals/vespene gaz spent) than a max deathball protoss of any kind. But as you know, zerg max still falls apart very quickly and you are able to win only if you have a superior economy and able to replenish that max army quickly. It also means that zerg with this army composition are not cost-efficient. Basically it means that you need to be economically ahead (the infamous 1 base ahead as zerg) to stay in the game. So i was thinking a lot about this match up and i really want to figure out a new style of play to sort this situation out. My main goal was to be effective against 4 warp gate, to deal with deathballs like it was any other army (and it actually is) A part of the answer came with patch 1.3 and the fungal growth buff. But before getting into the deep of the subject, i have some general consideration to make. General considerationZerg is seen as a "reactive" race. It means that if you don't scout any sort of aggression, you'd better making drone and teching like a crazy person until the push comes, then defend in a last-second fashion and finally crush your opponent with an overwhelming macro. Idra is definitely the best in this style and i cant stop admiring it. But it is quite hard to perform, because sometimes a 1 second delay on your macro can be end-gaming. But seriously, you dear zerg fellow, didn't ever dream of a game where you dictate the rhythm, where your opponent has to react to what YOU are doing? I think it is a real important aspect of Starcraft 2 indeed: There is an indenyable psychologic advantage to be the "leader" in a game: To harass and do aggression does in fact make your opponent uncomfortable and more open to mistakes and freak-out playing. To use Day9 terms, this is "Crisis management", and it can be like a full crisis management game as zerg sometimes: A push coming? Argghh, where are my larvaa?? This lead me to my first part of this guide. Please do note that the general strategy is doable with any kind of openers. It can be with any standard BO but this one is in my opinion the very best, i'll explain why. 9 pool in ZvP
Do you ever saw Day9 daily about 9 pool in ZvZ? I practice this build a lot, i will make another guide about it because i did refine this build so much that i have now 90% win in ZvZ mu. But it's not the matter here, although the general idea came from this build. Before the explicit BO, let's talk about general stuff. Overall aspect of 9 poolLiterally, you build a pool at 9 supply, and make some zergling when it does finish. Whereas 6 pool is a cheese, because you don't have any follow up plan but to win in the 2 following minute, 9 pool is not. It's a pressure build. It's not designed to be a build where you pray for your opponent to not scouting it, on the contrary! In fact you can do nothing but chilling at your base with your early zergling and still be well in the game. So we have a follow-up plan i will explain later, let's focus about technical things. About maps9 pool it's a pressure build and depends a lot of rush distance and spawning position of maps. It's a viable build but not as much economic as a hatch first. So you should consider the map you're playing on. Maps you should avoid doing it on -Taldarim altar -Terminus RE -Crevasse -Crossfire -Typhon -Nulpar Ravin All of them for obvious rush distance or unknown spawning position. This list does maybe look a little bit long, but it's not a big deal in ladder actually. Typhon, Nulpar Ravin and Taldarim altar are the 3 only map on the ladder yet, and i personally vetoed Typhoon and Nulpar Ravin, which i find quite horrible for zerg. Map you should consider 9 pool - Xel Naga Cavern, Fairly quick rush distance. You know where your opponent is - Shakuras Plateau: it may come as a surprise to you, but the rush distance is actually not that long AND you can know where your opponent is in time: Just send your overlord at the horizontal spawn position. If it is not there, well, just go to the diagonal one with your zergling ! - Metalopolis: Check close air position, look at the timing of the scouting probe. If it is early, they are in close ground position. If late, diagonal position ! - Shattered temple: Same here as metalopolis. - Quadrant Delta: If you are a crazy person who didn't veto this map like me, just send an overlord to a diagonal position, and send a scouting worker (before your zergling finishes) to a second spot if you don't find it with your overlord. By elimination you'll now where your opponent is. - Slag Pit: Same as quadrant delta. To be sure where your opponent is on 4 player map, you have to pull out a drone a 10/10 supply after building your overlord, and send it where your overlord is not going to. The early phase of 9 poolThere is different scenario about this build, depending how your opponent is reacting to your 9 pool. You can adapt your 9 pool depending when your opponent scouts you. Usually, he scouts just after building his pylon and get into your base when your pool is half-way done (on 2 player map or close ground position). They are two way of doing the 9 pool at that point: 9/10 Pool 10/10 overlord --> 6 zergling or 9/10 pool 10/10 overlord 11/10 drone ---> 4 zergling I recommand in a bo3 for example, to do 9 pool 6 zergling the first time, and then 4 zergling the second time. In fact 4 zergling is enough because it's the max number which can hit a single building with standard wall-off Against a wall-offUsually, he does it by adding a forge followed by a canon. -If he reacts immediately, the forge will be early enough that when you come to his front, he will already have a canon finishing. Then just pull back and congrats yourself: You took the entire map control for a while, forcing forge and canon ! -He reacted a little bit late, he has a gateway, a forge, and the canon is too late: With your zergling, FOCUS THE GATEWAY. 9 time out 10, you'll destroy it, and let me tell you how bad is it for your opponent ! The canon will finish just after that so just pull back, take the watchtower and make sure the scouting drone is not building canon near your main or expand. Complete map control again and delayed tech for the poor protoss. Against a standard protoss buildThe guy didn't realize that zergling was coming, and didn't change a thing in his BO. Surprisingly it is not alway the best thing which can happen to you. But still, there is different way you can exploit that. I personally aim the pylon if there is only one powering the gateway. If he does not react in time, the pylon will fall before the first zealot finishes. Then, just go for the probes and be cautious to not be surrounded ! But often time, toss take some probe to chase your zergling away his pylon: It is good for you: just go for the probe. Why good? because 1: He usually does not take ALL the probes, so you can snipe more of them (less dps on zergling) 2: The probes are not near mineral line: harder to surround your zergling, more mining time is lost. Economical damage are great and will make his build less powerful. About the zealot: If this ferocious warrior is out when your zergling are still alive, just ignore him IF zealot and probes are together. If the zealot is isolated and if you can get a surround, just go for the kill ! And aim the probe later Against a forge expandThe canon will often be up before you can slip through with your zergling. So no damage at all and he will probably fast expand. It's still okay for you: Don't put any drone in gaz, take a second and a third expand immediately. Then do the usual following i will describe next. You can maybe force more than 1 canon with your initial pressure zergling, it can be useful. You know that protoss is not gonna move anytime soon so take map control and drone hard. The good followingA pressure build is useless if you don't have any good following. Some people may think you are too far behind if you don't make any damage. It is not true at all. Here is the most decent following I found: 9/10: Pool 10/10: Overlord --> Depends of the map: Scouting to eliminate a spawning position, or send him near your opponent base to do some late scout 10/18: 6 zergling 13/18: queen 15 and 16/18: Drone 17/18: Overlord ---> Send him over your natural to check any later proxy 19/18: Queen followed by extractor 19/18 Is a very delicate moment. You have to do it precisely in this order: Your first queen pop out, launch a second queen, larva inject immediately, put an extractor you don't cancel. You will have EXACTLY the money to do so ! You cannot build the extractor first because your queen will be delayed. The difficult part of this timing is because your zergling are reaching protoss front at this exact moment, so you have to be really quick an efficient if you don't wanna screw this up Drone up to 24/26 Put 3 drone in gaz Keep larva inject with Queen 1 Put down a total of 3 creep tumor with queen 2, relentless creep spread! Drone up to 26/26 Lay down your first expand Launch zergling speed with 100 first gaze After this, it is designed for my later strategy game, which is zergling/baneling/infestor. So if you don't wanna to do this, feel free to do otherwise. It matches with other compo as well. After zergling speedLaunch a evolution chamber when you hav 50 gaz stockpiled or so. It will finishes around 100 gaz, so make your +1 melee attack. With the 100 next gaz, go T2. I will explain what happens after T2 but it will belong to the mid game strategy part. Why not +1 armor?Well, you're maybe thinking: I'm gonna have a lot of zergling, he has a forge, he will make zealot +1 attack two-shoting my zergling so i really need this +1 armor. It's a good way to see things, but there is a better response to this. Armor cost 150 gaz to 100 melee. You'd better save this 50 gaz to build your baneling nest just after this. Baneling are far better at dealing with zealot than +1 armor zergling, believe me :D What now?You should be around 6 min into the game, and around 30 pop, mainly drone and queen and maybe few zergling left. Do you noticed anything? Oh yes, first, you are pretty much at the same point as any zerg doing basic stuff drone-wise and expand-wise.You have your 2 queen, but notice 3 creep tumor with continue larva inject thanks to this early second queen. Creep spread is important in every game! But more so, now it is time to check is your opponent is not MAKING A 4 GATE. Dealing with 4 gateIt may be counter-intuitive, but protoss usually thinks that you are behind because of this "rush" (maybe they think it was a 6 pool? So they tend to think that a 4 warp gate will end you. Anyway, protoss still making a lot of random 4 gate in ladder so better to be ready! Step 1: Remember that overlord near your enemy base? time to sacrificial overlord for scouting purpose ! Step 2: Did you noticed any sign of 4 gate? Yes? Then begin to make a TON of zergling (double queen for a while, it will be easy) Step 3: Focus the probe or the pylon. No probe, no pylon, no 4 gate. Step 4: Don't let the mean protoss get stuck in a narrow path. Build a evolution chamber to block your back mineral line path. Step 5: Too many zealots ? make banelings, and engage only on creep with them! Usually, the 4 gate ends here, because 20 to 25 zergling, soon +1, are more than enough to clean that up. It means that the game is pretty much over to your favor. Dealing with expandWhat is really great about this build, is that at this 7 minute magic mark, your opponent is doing or a 4 warp gate or an expand. They already got the forge, so why not use that do plant an expo? They are right, but you are in an incredible spot right now. Whatever he does, the correct response on your behalf is the same: Do a ton of zergling, something like 30 overall. We already saw that it is the way to clean up 4 gate, but it is also the way to delay the expand for a while! Run to your enemy expansion, he will have 3 to 4 unit maybe outside his base. Catch them if you can (sentries first), cancel the expand, and stay outside. He will have to make more unit, more canon to be able to expand properly. Don't use any baneling to do that. They are yet to slow off creep. Meanwhile, you are droning like a crazy person Mid game strategy: Following the 9 pool with speedling/baneling/infestor
How to use your gaz all game long: Remember, you are now halfway T2, you have been on 1 gaz all the time, using it for speed, +1 attack, baneling nest, maybe some baneling to stay alive, then lair. Before it finishes, take all your 4 gaze geyser available. What to do now? Before even considering getting infestor, you have to plan your late game. It means upgrade, so use your gaz in the following order, as soon as you get the required amount: -During T2, you should be able to start +1 armor. Make another evolution chamber when it is close to finish -Start baneling speed -Then +2 attack and +2 armor -Then infestation pit, -Then energy upgrade -3 infestor will be enough. -Neural parasite, will describe the use later -Let's get the hive -Adrenale gland, remember that upgrade? Rush for it! -Then +3 attack and +3 armor upgrade -Ultralisk den baby ! I will come back about upgrade, infestor and ultralisk topic. How to use your zergling all game longZergling are the nastiest and fatest unit of the game. They are very strong with upgrade and give you an insane map control. After 9 pool damage, go take both watchtower, let 1 zergling in front of protoss base to check move and expand, and 1 zergling to your own expand to deny any probe block. After canceling 4 gate way or delaying expand, the protoss should be on the defensive now, so go take out the rocks of your gold. You should lay down your first macro hatch followed by your third at the gold. During all game, you should have a group of zergling ready to run by into the protoss main whenever he seems to move out. Having the watch tower and isolated zergling spotting is crucial. Some general consideration about zergling and baneling compositionI think most of zerg thought that zergling is not even a viable option in ZvP, because of zealots. Maybe that's why we are attending a lot of roach usage, because they are overall not bad against gateway units. But zergling are actually far more effective than roach against gateway, as long as they are upgraded. Baneling does a good job against them too. The combination is really strong and more important: cheap. They are cheap in mineral, but don't forget they are not cheap when it comes to larva ! Make sure to have 1 macro hatch per 2 base, including your main. You need a maximum of 4 queen, 3 are usually enough if your mechanics are good. Usually, 4 base including 1 gold + 2 macro hatch for a 6 hatch total and 3 queens are enough to produce infinity zergling. The mid game threat: force fieldIn a standard game, a 2 base push will come on protoss behalf. He will have a lot of gateway units, maybe 1 or 2 colossi, and a lot of sentries of course. They are few rule to consider to hold this push with ease: -First, you don't have any way to break force field now, so don't overcommit with your zergling and baneling. If you see him make a donut around him, just draw back, and wait for the FF to finish. Then go again, until he doesn't have enough energy. -Engage in open space, don't let him block himself against a wall or behind your mineral line ! Remember this 3 creep tumor? I hope you spread it out all over the map. You should have creep in front of your third when the timing push comes. -Don't forget you're producing zergling, the fatest unit to hatch ! If you don't feel confident, just draw back a little, make a ton of zergling and come for the final blow. I often sacrifice a base (usually the 3rd) in order to take no risk about this push. Infestor: how to use it - Fungal growth is a very nice spell to say the least, with 2 main usage. First, it does some nice additional damage, helping your overall dps. Second, to lock down the protoss ball. I use it in two different way: If i see a threatening stack of zealot, feel free to lock them while your zergling are aiming for stalker. Of course, locking down stalker is the goal you want to achieve every time: Huge damage on them and no more micro: let the zergling and baneling finish the job. You want to use fungal on colossi as well. Remember hit and run micro on colossi can be devastating for your zergling. Better to be sure they don't do that ! - Neural parasite is a huge help when you get it. First, it allow you to mindcontrol colossi, diminishing the real threat to your zergling army. But the most useful thing you can do whith it, is to STEP with the Colossi on Force field ! Yeah baby ! This a trick i use when i don't have ultra yet Infestor have weaknesses -Of course high templar with feedback (unless you are able to mincontrol one of them, and then feedback the others! Never managed to do it though) -Phoenix. I will talk later about stargate build in a overall fashion. But in any case, if you're opponent is going phenix, he's gonna able to snipe your infestor whenever he wants all over the map. Don't freak out. The correct response is to get burrow, and to unburrow until the real battle occur. Late game strategy and resource usageYou now are T3 with full zergling/baneling/infestor upgrade. Get the crucial unit who fits so well in this compo: Ultralisk. When you already have enough infestor (5-6), you don't have much gaz to spend on units. So ultra are not gonna be economically hard to pull out. They are overall a good unit (3-3 upgrade remember? ) but the main usage are to step on force field, making your army unstoppable by any deathball ! But don't EVER overcommit with those ultra! It's not because you can produce 10 ultra you should do so. I already lost a game by doing this. The key is to remain cost efficient, ultra in big number are not. Zergling are ! Tech switchIf your opponent realize how crucial it is to get high templar against this composition, it is very easy for you to tech switch. The best choice is to get roach: Get a double warren and upgrade speed and burrow movement as well as burrow, and start +1 range attack. Don't forget 1 good storm can annihilate any zergling/ baneling stack easily. Roaches with burrow doesn't really care about that. When templar are dead, switch back to zergling. Don't forget templar without KA are less threatening and efficient to warp. So you can easily take your opponent out that way. Dealing with airI'm quite sure you're asking the following question to yourself: What about air? Well guy's, you simply doesn't care about air at any stage of the game. - Early stargate opening, phenix harass: Guess what, you have an evolution chamber for sporecrawler and already 2 queens. Just produce more to be sure he cannot snipe them. He literally gives up about ground control, so you should be able to deny any expand with your zergling. (Graviton beam zergling is quite a waste Keep expand and drone hard. He can't deny a hatchery, and a pushes is not about to come anytime soon. Big hard outmacro! Just remember what i said about infestor: burrow ! - Void-ray/Colossi: Void ray are effective against ultra, that's all. Your ground army is gonna rip colossi and gateway unit so hard, you can just run into your opponent base and kill him. Void ray don't do well against zergling, who are the real damage dealer. When ground protoss army is dead, switch to hydralisk to finish void ray if the numerous fungal growth haven't done the job yet. If he goes into your base with the void ray, you will be able to clean his entire base far more quickly than him, and at this stage of the game, you'll have enough base to build hydralisk elsewhere. Using drops and nydusA good protoss player will soon understand how important it is for him to constrict space with building. The correct answer for you is to go for baneling drop on top of his mineral line (In an epic fashion) and nydus him with zergling runby. Don't be scared of suiciding 20 banes over a nexus or a canon line, it basically cost nothing for you. Moreover, when you already got all the upgrade you need, some infestor and ultra, you don't really have gaz to spend. So drop and nydus who are gaz expansive does well fit with this timing, around 20 minutes into the game. Cost effectivenessThis chart is related to the replay ZvPStandard2, see bellow. ZvPStandard2Do you see that chart? It shows that my army value, i.e. resource spent in army. It is never really up above his. Still, i'd win this game with no contest. It means that zerg can be cost efficient and can deal with max protoss army. But ONLY if you don't make mistake like mass ultra, mass muta, mass infestor. The main unit has to remain zergling, with enough baneling to clean the zealots. Of course, a quick draw is better than a long talk, so here are replays. I 9 pool in every game. About macro, mechanics and APMIt's important to note that this mass zergling play require a lot of larva inject, so overall good mechanics and APM. I was sharing this style of play with a diamand player and he really wasnt able to produce enough out of his hatch, due to insufficient APM. I'm far to be a beast, but it looks like 100 or 120 APM is the minimal to perform well with it. Replay illustration
General advise to watch this replay: In the early game, put production tab and everyone tab. When 9 pool is done and when i get to macro mode, switch to unit tab and to my cam to check mechanics. Doing damage at protoss frontZvP9poolThis replay is literally my first game ever using 9 pool and zergling baneling infestor. On shattered temple on close position. I do a lot of damage at his front, the game shows that even good force field is not that strong against this compo. Not the best game anyway. Dealing with 4 warp gate and doing bane dropZvP4GateDropIn this replay on Shakuras Plateau, we spawn on cross position. He scouts me early so i choose to do only the 4 ling pool. He does not wall of, certainly thinking that the zealot will pop up in time. I do very few damage to his probe, ignoring the zealot. He follow it by a 4 warp gate push i held with some trouble because i wasn't able to scout it in time. After helding it, i could cancel his expand for a little while. Still doing well, i end the game by a beautiful bane drop at his expand and his main. It forces him to move out for a last chance attack, very interesting to see when it comes to minimize the force field strenght. Overall not a very good replay either, but shows how it is crucial to hatch quickly units, which only zergling can do. ZvP4GateBaneDrop2In this game, we spawn close air position on Metalopolis. He scouts me early and my 9 pool does no damage whatsoever. Followed by a 4 gate i held quite easily this time. Unable to delay his expand, i go into macro-mode until he does a 2 base push with a nice deathball. Even with poor army management, the battle is pretty uncontested. The game ends with the laughable baneling drop & rage quit ever Dealing with air or forge expandZvPAirIn this game, we spawn cross position on shattered temple. He opened up with a forge expand, denying any 9 pool damage. I decide whatsoever to work on the gold expand rocks asap. He follows up with a double stargate phoenix harass. Picking up queens and drone, sometimes infestor. I just ignore him and do my stuff. It ends up 3 base against 5 for me. A big battle occur in the center of the map while i'm doing 2 successful baneling drop out of 3. I Rip his ground army and 11 void ray stayed alive. I choose to ignore them and go for counter attack. While they are dealing with my expands, i rip his base appart and switching slowly to hydralisk. The game ends before i could engage void ray because he had no building left ZvPAir2Horizontal spawn on Shaluras Plateau, this one shows how easy it is to ignore void ray and transitioning into hydra to finish them. He pretty much raged at the start of the game, so sorry if i taunt him at the end Dealing with deathball, standard gamesZvPStandardOn Xel naga cavern, this one show a no-wall of but no damage done whatsoever. The game goes on standard. I let him took my 3rd because i wasnt sure i could take him off. We are at the same eco and unit level (before some baneling drops hehe) when his deathball comes, but the battle is pretty one-sided. After that i mass up and go for the kill. ZvPStandard2On Xel naga cavern again, this one shows a fake 4 gate into expand. It shows how fragile a 3 gate expand his against this build: If i had let a spotting zergling in order to see the expand, i could attack with a lot of zergling against 4 unit. Middle game battle is pretty laughable, as my zergling and baneling comes in a congo line due to some good force field. Still one sided.I mass up and go for the kill.
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This is such a great post! I have been working on a ling/bling/infestor/ultra build for zvp for the past week, it is really cool to see a master's player has been using a similar build. I haven't considered 9 pool though. I'm really looking forward to watching your replays to see your take on the build.
I have had the hardest time with 5 gate robo pressure and 6 gate timing attacks, but I think I have it narrowed down to just the right amount of infestors and banelings to easily handle it. Very potent build in late game.
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Typhon, Nulpar Ravin and Taldarim altar are the 3 only map on the ladder ye What is nulpar ravin?
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why do you think typhoon is a bad map?i think its the very best map and im sure i have the highest win % of all zvp on this map
well your 9 pool opening is definitely not good there but else you can take 3rd and 4th anywhere and the protoss cant just send a few units to kill and if he sends entire army you can easily destroy their bases
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@evanthebouncy! Thank you so much ! But how can i copy that on the front post? @ Treemonkeys : Thank you aswell, i hope you'll find all the answer you need here. ZvP is now my favorite match up, with 70% win ratio
Nulpar Ravin is Backwater Gulch. Damn i should have check this before I don't like Thyphon because of the weird natural (far from the ramp, wide open) and the numerous spot to hide a pylon. But you are right, it is not a bad map for ZvP but it his for ZvT, so i vetoed. I hate Delta quadrant as well, but i don't have enough veto ^^
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On April 11 2011 23:29 aXa wrote:@evanthebouncy! Thank you so much ! But how can i copy that on the front post? @ Treemonkeys : Thank you aswell, i hope you'll find all the answer you need here. ZvP is now my favorite match up, with 70% win ratio Nulpar Ravin is Backwater Gulch. Damn i should have check this before
just click "Quote" on my post, and copy over the whole thing inside my post's spoiler tags over.
On the strategy, it looks very solid, I've been doing this style where I can get an early third then slam down 5 geysers at once, it feels very powrful but I make the mistake of transition into mutalisks rather than into infestor/ultra, so that might be the answer.
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@evanthebouncy! Awesome job! thank you
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On April 11 2011 23:35 aXa wrote:@evanthebouncy! Awesome job! thank you
no worries. Your problem is there's something wrong with your font while typing red or something, there is this illegal hidden character next to your \[red\] thing which is screwing things up
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Maybe because i am a mac user. I had to press alt + maj + ( or ) to make the sign.
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On April 11 2011 23:18 aXa wrote: I don't really understand what do you want to know.
I recap what i'm saying to be sure we understand each other: -If he makes a gateway+ cyb core and chronoboost the first zealot, the zergling can come in before the zealot pop and finish up the wall. (replay ZvP4GateDrop) - If he makes a pylone to complete the wall off, the zealot pop usually inside the base so you can kill the gateway. If he pops outside, 6 ling are enough to kill him right? So kill the gateway anyway.
Ok I see it now. You'd better edit your replay descriptions. Gate+core+zealot is considered a walloff. If you add a pylon it is a complete wall off or impassable wall off. This is not universally accepted but you would better use these termins to avoid confusion between the kinds of wall in response to 9 pool.
The replay: toss went 12 gate + core, BUT he went zealot after core. As a result his zealot was late for a second or two and he lost 2 probes and some mining time. He could also improve some timings on his gateway but aslo he could go 13 gate so this is actually debatable if the chronoed zealot comes out before or after lings and very map (and position) dependant. I suggest you test this out because it is kind of important.
Concerning 4gate. 1gas 4gate gets a first round of units at around 5:45-6:00 depending on execution. Only at 6:55 you have your speed finished and only at around 7:15 mass lings start arriving at your nat. The toss: - let the lings in his base - went ineffective 4gate - lost his forward pylon - banked 400-600 minerals most of the time during the rush and you still had troubles defending it. Conclusion: the 9 pool allowed you to gain an eco advantage in that game only because the toss let you have it. Any well executed 4gate would have killed you. I think 9 pool is only drawing you back, you'd be much better off with standard gaspool or hatch first.
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I never played against someone who made a zealot before core, so i never thought about that. The 4 warp gate is usually delayed by the 9 pool as it comes most of the time to a forge wall off. I don't find more replay who shows good 4 warp gate, but i didn't have any problem to hold numerous of them. Maybe watch the second 4 warp gate replay and tell me if the protoss did screw up.
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I'm P and i lost every game this was done to me.
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On April 12 2011 00:01 Tibson wrote: I'm P and i lost every game this was done to me.
are you referring to the 9 pool opening or the general unit composition?
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4Gatedelayed
Here another replay of a delayed 4 gate. The protoss is not the best toss, but the force field and the 4 warp gate is well executed.
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On April 12 2011 00:00 aXa wrote: I never played against someone who made a zealot before core, so i never thought about that. The 4 warp gate is usually delayed by the 9 pool as it comes most of the time to a forge wall off. I don't find more replay who shows good 4 warp gate, but i didn't have any problem to hold numerous of them. Maybe watch the second 4 warp gate replay and tell me if the protoss did screw up. Core before zealot vs 9 pool is a mistake. Forge vs 9 pool is also a mistake. Ok, I'll look at another one.
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This is very interesting, thank you so much for putting up all of this aXa!
I'm eagerly awaiting the "final ruling" on the zealot timing for this, as not having this as 9-pool does change everything quite a bit for the starting part of the game.
I do like the other benefits you get from the early pool though - is it enough to warrant it even if the zealot can come out in time?
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This is great, I am going to give this a shot tonight, thank you for it, aXa. Very detailed and thought out.
Edit: Can this get upped to the wiki? I would like a fast reference to it.
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Well i think Cheerio is right when he says that a zealot before core deny 9 pool. I never played against that so i never thought it was possible.
But as I said, even if you do no damage at all, (like against a forge expand or a quick forge wall off) it's a solid build anyway. We just need to know if a zealot first core second followed by a 4 gate is sustainable in time.
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Im sorry, i didnt quite get that, could u repeat it please? :D On a separete note, i stoped 6 pools with 1 gateway bos, even with no wall at ramp, so i dont think 9 pool is good in zvp sc2, unless u are simply a monster at finding weak spots from your enemie.
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On April 12 2011 00:05 aXa wrote:4GatedelayedHere another replay of a delayed 4 gate. The protoss is not the best toss, but the force field and the 4 warp gate is well executed. Well i didnt even watch after 7:30 minutes mark as the game was decided at that point. 1) He cancelled his pylon and got supply blocked. This delayed zealot and stopped probe production. 2) let his gateway killed. 3) let his zealot surrouned and killed with pretty much no losses on your side. 4) had to trade probes for lings while losing mining time. 5) didnt mine gas for a long time.
6) his 1st round of units was warped at 7:20 inside his base.
This is not a 4gate this is fail.
Going 9 pool and expecting an opponent to make a mistake or two (like in the games you link) is ok, this is gambling but this is ok to me. But you must understand that certain types of responses are putting you behind, and if you wright a guide you must let the others be aware of those.
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I'm a little short on replay, i'll ladder and expect a nice 4 gate. But as i said, 9 pool doesn't put you behind economically compared to 13 pool thanks to early larva inject. It's not a risky build by that means and you are free to not do dammage with the first zergling.
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ok, so if 9 pool doesnt put you behind, why isnt everyone doing a 9 pool instead of 13 pool? or a 15 pool?
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Ok i just ran a test to solve this
After 5 minute of game, you get 19 drone out of a 9 pool with 6 zergling. You have 2 queens, 2 creep tumor down, a hatch started at 4:40 as well as zergling speed started
After 5 minute of game, you get 20 drone out of a 13 pool 13 extractor with 4 ling into expand. You have 2 queeens, 1 barely creep tumor, a hatch started at 3:45 as well as zergling speed started, but a little bit ahead.
So definelty not puting you behind, considering map control and creep spread
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Wow, nice write up.
Very nice thoughts on your build.i like the factor of the mapcontrol the most. related to a 4 gate, this build kills in my oppinion 4 gates so easily. there is simply no early proxy a protoss can build when you use your lings well. And as a Protoss player i have the hardest time 4gating against such early ling builds.
And all the possible transitions look very smooth too.
But i think the only flaw this build has, is: Its very hard to execute and needs lot of practice. Because this is a kinda special build where very little mistakes at some points, will screw ur whole game. (ok in which ZvP you can do mistakes? oh ok in noone so this isnt a too risky build at all) One single overcommitmend into forcefields or collossi, just too much infestors,or even things like building 10 ultras (sounds very nice at first) as you said.
So before some theorycrafters start hating, they should think about the fact this build just requires expirience and practice. and if you dont have it, you will probably fail against every thing the toss could do in your oppinion.
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a hatch started at 4:40
a hatch started at 3:45
also 1 minute worth of larva
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Well i don't think so. The whole point of 9 pool and the whole build in general is to make unit first to allow you window of droning that you can CONTROL. It means that you won't be taken by surprise by a push with your pants down (i.e. : without any larva left because you just spend on drone ^^)
I think it really worth a 1 min hatch earlier, considering that anyway you'll have to make more emergency zergling with a 13 pool than with a 9 pool.
So drone timing become suddenly clear, which is the hardest think as zerg to perform. And in most of the game, i have 80 to 100 drone at the end. (While producing a something like 400 to 500 zergling !) So very larva heavy.
Moreover, this build really do increase with APM when it comes to power. I wish i was fast enough to perform runby with ling all game long, along with baneling drop and nydus ! Can't wait to see a pro gamer using that strategy, i'm quite sure it will be fierce
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Thanks for this awesome read
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On April 12 2011 01:19 gwaihir wrote:So before some theorycrafters start hating, they should think about the fact this build just requires expirience and practice. and if you dont have it, you will probably fail against every thing the toss could do in your oppinion.
The reverse of that is true as well. If you have experience and practice, it probably doesn't matter so much what you do exactly. If replays can't show the build beating player with solid execution, then the OP simply outplayed his opponents in these replays, and it doesn't matter *what* he did, he could have done standard 14g14p or hatch-first, and won likely even more convincingly.
In order to show that 9pool is viable against a 4gate, you have to actually show it defeating a well-executed 4gate. I don't think that's too much to ask, and neither should you.
I happen to know from experience heavily testing zerg openings that 9pool makes some pretty large economic sacrifices, so for the OP to claim
In fact you can do nothing but chilling at your base with your early zergling and still be well in the game
Almost borders on ridiculous. If you pool that early, and build 6 zerglings instead of 3 drones, and do absolutely nothing with those zerglings, you can still win, but only if you make fewer mistakes that your opponent. In other words, if *you play better than your opponent*, you can win after putting yourself behind. Back to experience and practice.
The ling/infestor/baneling/ultra lategame is extremely strong right now, but to be perfectly honest, it seems likely that the OP is winning on that, despite the fact that hamstringing himself early, and it's very possible that lategame would be better served by a more standard opening.
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The only thing right now, is that i don't have any replay with a good 4 warp gate. Why is that? Because i don't have save all my replay, and i had to look into "recently played" to find the one i posted. Anyway, go try the 9 pool yourself and we will see what about 4 gate.
Now, i say it again, and again: i have run test, 9 pool is NOT economically weaker than a 13 pool. The 3 early drone you didnt make are replenish by the 3 more larva you get faster with the larva inject. If it is weaker, we are talking about a ridiculous margin.
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On April 12 2011 02:08 aXa wrote:Now, i say it again, and again: i have run test, 9 pool is NOT economically weaker than a 13 pool. The 3 early drone you didnt make are replenish by the 3 more larva you get faster with the larva inject. If it is weaker, we are talking about a ridiculous margin.
You are wrong.
It is economically weaker, and whatever testing you did to show otherwise was either poorly executed, or otherwise flawed. It's not exactly rocket science to say "hey, if I waste a bunch of larva getting here, and I build 6 lings instead of drones, I just might be behind".
Early drones make a *much* larger difference than later drones. Making zerglings for supply 11-13 instead of drones is a pretty sizable economic penalty.
In addition, 9pooling at all wastes larvae that could have been drones. Wastes as in they're gone forever, and can never be recovered, because they simply never spawned in the first place. The faster inject helps make up for this, but that's it. In fact, watching one of your replays shows that almost 3 full larvae are wasted. Your first inject would have to be 30 seconds faster *just to make up for the lost larvae*, let alone trying to make up for drones that didn't get made, or 3 sets of zerglings.
It turns out that you're about 40 seconds faster than a standard 14g14p, but that just replaces up for the actual larvae (making up for larvae that you've already lost by 9pooling), and certainly doesn't make up for the fact that you could have had six more drones working up to that point.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and your claim (that 9pool is the best way to open into your mid and late game) is extremely extraordinary, but the evidence provided in the replays is pedestrian at best. And the fact that you continue to make ridiculous claims (that you could do nothing with the zerglings and still be totally fine against an equally skilled opponent, or that 9pool is not economically weaker than a 13pool, which is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing that's ever come from the mouth of a master-level player *ever*), isn't really helping your case.
Like others in this thread, I also seriously doubt you could hold off a well-executed 4gate *from a protoss who knows how to best respond to an early pool*. If you see a forge, they've already done it wrong, and have given you a chance to catch back up, which I freely admit you did extremely admirably, you're obviously a very good player. But if the protoss puts down a cyber or a second gateway instead of a forge, and is anywhere near your skill level, I'd be willing to place a bet that you flat out lose to a counterpush a huge percentage of the time.
In fact, once protoss players get out of this mindset that they have to have a forge to hold off an early pool, I suspect 9pooling will be quite suicidal, since it's not early enough to have a real chance at doing enough damage against somebody who responds correctly, but not late enough to avoid economic damage of your own in the form of wasted larvae and early zerglings.
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This is great! Tried two matches both times he forced two cannons and one forge. First match I over dorned but second it went grate. Thanks alot!
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Skrag, seriously?
whatever test i made, it was poorly executed? And what proof do you have that 9 pool is economically far weaker than 13 pool 13 gaz? Did you run any test? You don't seems to have any evidence of your point, you're just making statement. I tested both build and compared replay. 20 drone against 19. More creep, more larva. Delayed speed. That's all. can't you figure out that early larva inject means more drone, so it does catch up compare to a 13 pool? I played numerous games with this strat, i made sure i was not saying foolishness, and here you come saying me without the shadow of a proof that i am "ridiculous" ? Ladder is ladder, i'm a master player and i played master protoss: they are near my level. I managed to do well both economically and army wise with this opening relentlessly. For now, i lost only twice with this strat. One time overcommiting with ultralisk, the other one because i was annoyed by a stupid bee. Maybe you should more believe in practice than theory. You should try by yourself and you'll see how counterpush are not scary at all. Even more, i would see it is game ending for protoss because they have no way to recover after they lost the 4 warp gate. Don't you think that a 2 hatch with queen, producing zergling soon to be +1, and maybe baneling, are not enough to hold a 4 warp gate? lIet me tell you, if that can't hold, nothing can and then 4 warp gate is truly imba.
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Skrag is right. The subject of economy of zerg openings has been beat up to death on this forum, and you'd better just beleive me: your 9 pool is much more economically poorer than standard zerg openings. The best "standard" economic zerg opening with early pool is 11 overpool with as little lings as possible. This can be a nice guide, dont kill it with arguing disproved ideas.
And one more point. If the protoss reacts well to your opening you will have very little map control. In fact once he has 2 zealots you will have none. Mapcontrol in early zvp is ensured by getting early ling speed or making mass units.
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IMO people are making way too big a deal of the 9 pool opening, the real powerhouse is the ling/bling/infestor with a pre-200 transition into ultra. A fresh unit comp in a time that many zergs are having a terrible time with ZvP and where most of them are also using roach/hydra/corrupter. It is so powerful late gate that you can engage the protoss army with equal or less supply and come out far ahead in supply after the battle, something that just doesn't happen normally with roach/hydra/corrupter.
The nice thing is, you can open with 9 pool or you can use any economic opener you want, and you can handle 4gate however you want, you don't REALLY commit to this comp until after 4gate timing has passed.
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This seems fairly potent. Can't wait to try it out on ladder! :D
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On April 12 2011 03:06 aXa wrote: Skrag, seriously?
whatever test i made, it was poorly executed? And what proof do you have that 9 pool is economically far weaker than 13 pool 13 gaz? Did you run any test? You don't seems to have any evidence of your point, you're just making statement. Yes, seriously. Have you not seen the 2-3 threads that are specifically analyzing the economy of various Zerg openings, in which they run controlled experiments rather than just trying it in one replay? 9pool is simply not as good as economically as any of the standard Zerg openings, and it's been proven beyond a doubt.
That said, your mid/late-game transition is very strong and I like your thinking there. This could be a really good guide if you put less of an emphasis on your 9p opening and more on the late-game composition, regardless of the opening one chooses.
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Great post aXa, very detailed well thought out and well written. Maybe I'll try this on ladder tonight ^^
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As a Protoss player I think this is a great opener, but not for every game! In PvZ I am basically given the early part of the game without a fight, and things like this throw me off my build order a little. Definitely a build worth practicing for a BO3 or somethin
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On April 12 2011 04:01 Weenkus wrote: aXa thanks for the build I tryed it and it worked wonders the toss deathball was crushed easily with ling,bling,ultra infestor combo. Makes sense, blings for light FG for armored
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On April 12 2011 03:06 aXa wrote: Skrag, seriously?
Yes, seriously.
I *guarantee* I've done way more testing on zerg openings than you have, or I wouldn't have replied to begin with.
But to be perfectly honest, although I have done an absolutely ridiculous amount of testing on zerg openings, doing comparisons that are actually valid, as opposed to your "hey look, drone counts are equal right now, that means I'm not behind economically" "testing", I shouldn't need to run any test at all. The fact that not having 6 full drones out there working will put you significantly behind economically should be painfully obvious. The earlier inject is playing catch-up, and as I've already stated, based on times from your own replay, and a quick 14g14p run of my own, it only just barely catches up larva-wise, but still loses mining time from 6 drones that weren't made (3 because they couldn't be made due to wasted larva, and 3 because they were zerglings instead of drones).
I mean seriously, you're basing your test purely on drone counts at a particular point in time, without any consideration whatsoever to the income lost up to that point?
Yes, your testing is flawed, and the fact it's not painfully obvious to you means that there's probably not going to be any point in continuing this discussion, because you're *so* wrong that you can't even see the possibility.
and here you come saying me without the shadow of a proof that i am "ridiculous" ?
Claiming a 9pool is not economically behind a 13pool is ridiculous, and I gave you all the evidence you needed in my last post. You are missing 6 early drones. The earlier inject lets you catch up in drone count, but *does not* make up for lost mining time. If you don't think that puts you significantly behind, then you shouldn't be posting early build orders that are departures from standard, because you clearly don't understand the impact of early decisions.
Lets see if I can make this any more obvious than I already have. Pretend I have an ability that lets me spawn my first 20 drones right at the beginning of the game, but I can't build any more until you also hit 20. When you hit 20, are you ahead or behind? Because based on what I've seen so far, you would claim you're not behind, because the drone counts are equal, when the truth of the matter is that I'm going to be so far ahead that you will never win a single game!
Ladder is ladder, i'm a master player and i played master protoss: they are near my level.
I only watched one of the 4gate replays (Cheerio had already watched the other two and claimed the 4gates were very poor). The protoss put down a completely unnecessary forge, delaying his attack by at least a minute and a half. This is a very typical protoss response to an early pool, apparently even in master league play, but its WRONG. Had he put down a cybercore instead of the forge, and not wasted money on forge+cannons, the attack would have come long before you could possibly be ready for it.
Show me a replay where a protoss 4gates without building a forge first, and maybe there will be more to discuss, but showing replays where players respond incorrectly is worse than not showing any replays at all IMO.
I managed to do well both economically and army wise with this opening relentlessly. For now, i lost only twice with this strat.
You are clearly a very good player. Because of this, you able to win with a very strong mid and late game when your opponents give you the chance to catch back up from the damage you've done to your own economy early, and in the one replay I watched, you severely outplayed your opponent.
But you don't need a good opening to do that, and still have provided exactly zero evidence to your claim that 9pool is the best opening into your mid/lategame. Instead, you've made ridiculous (yes, RIDICULOUS) claims that 9pool is not behind a 13 pool economically, when it it plainly obvious that it is, due to 6 workers that you don't build until much later in the game.
As I said, you're making an extraordinary claim here, that an opening we already know sacrifices a lot of economy, is the best way (or even a SAFE way) to get to the midgame.
***EDIT****
I spent the past hour or so recording timings on early pools up to 11. Both 10 and 11 pool (before overlord) sacrifice less early, while only delaying the first attack by about 5 seconds for 10pool, and 10 seconds for 11pool. Maybe that 5-10 seconds is a deal-breaker, maybe it's not. Since you claim that you don't even need to do any damage at all, it shouldn't be, in which case both 10 pool and 11 pool are both better economically than 9 pool, even by your own screwed-up definitions.
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On April 12 2011 03:46 JDub wrote: That said, your mid/late-game transition is very strong and I like your thinking there. This could be a really good guide if you put less of an emphasis on your 9p opening and more on the late-game composition, regardless of the opening one chooses.
Agree 100%.
This is a very strong late-game, but would almost certainly be better served by a more solid opening than a 9pool, because whether the OP wants to believe it or not, this opening is slowing things down.
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As a protoss player, I saw I will not be wavered. 6-10 pool zergling rushes for me have never been a problem. I feel if zerg is going to transition into this its going to be free wins for me.
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On April 12 2011 04:13 Skrag wrote: ... I spent the past hour or so recording timings on early pools up to 11. Both 10 and 11 pool (before overlord) sacrifice less early, while only delaying the first attack by about 5 seconds for 10pool, and 10 seconds for 11pool. Maybe that 5-10 seconds is a deal-breaker, maybe it's not. ...
It should be noted that 6 zerglings do 216 damage vs 0 armor or 172 damage vs 1 armor in 5 seconds. 10 seconds is, in other words, about the time it takes to take down a Pylon...
(Nothing to do with the economics of the build, which is your point here, but a note on your comment about a 5-10 second delay being a deal breaker)
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Excellent and lengthy guide man, props. I'm going to test this out for sure and see if i can get some games with very good opponents who perhaps can show the strong and weaker points of this style. There seems to be some debate on whether the 9pool will be economical enough to not set you back too far.
I think the question we need to ask is: can the first 4 to 6 lings caus enough damage to the protoss to make the build worthwile in regards to other builds, or will it only be worthwhile when the protoss overreacts (forge cannons).
Im really interested in using high upgrades lings as you main force dps and ultralisk as breakers, again props, for coming with this
@weenkus: lol awesome replay man altho you really took the game by holding of his air attack, it was so aweome to watch you held that air harass like a boss
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On April 12 2011 05:03 blackbrrd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 04:13 Skrag wrote: ... I spent the past hour or so recording timings on early pools up to 11. Both 10 and 11 pool (before overlord) sacrifice less early, while only delaying the first attack by about 5 seconds for 10pool, and 10 seconds for 11pool. Maybe that 5-10 seconds is a deal-breaker, maybe it's not. ... It should be noted that 6 zerglings do 216 damage vs 0 armor or 172 damage vs 1 armor in 5 seconds. 10 seconds is, in other words, about the time it takes to take down a Pylon... (Nothing to do with the economics of the build, which is your point here, but a note on your comment about a 5-10 second delay being a deal breaker)
Fair enough. 10 seconds could be a deal breaker then, especially since that 10 seconds virtually guarantees that the first zealot will be out.
The OP claims you can sit with the zerglings in your base and still not be behind though, in which case 10 and 11 pool would both be strictly better than 9pool, because they make fewer sacrifices, and still get the queen out almost as fast.
Early lings have to do damage. If they don't, you are behind, because you made economic sacrifices to get the lings out so fast. That's not something that needs to be proved, it's not even something worthy of discussion. It's a simple well-known fact.
I will say one thing though. After watching most of the replays, if this is how well master-league players typically respond to early pools, then I like the 9pool simply because of the very likely possibility that they will respond poorly and make many mistakes.
As long as you recognize that you're actually trying to force mistakes, and that it's going to stop working at some point, either as you play tougher players who respond better, or as the protoss responses improve in general. (I mostly feel that protoss tend to run around like chickens with their heads cut off when encountering an early pool. Most of them can't seem to decide whether they want to play defensively or counterattack, and therefore end up doing both, which pretty much guarantees failure, or they'll play *too* defensively, without keeping tabs on what the zerg is doing, letting the zerg pull way ahead economically).
If the OP wouldn't make ridiculous claims like you're not behind if the lings do zero damage (you are), or that a 9pool isn't economically behind builds that are provably more economic, then I'd have no beef at all, and this would be an awesome guide. As it is though, I believe a more standard opening would be far more appropriate, and that the OP is doing something that he can only get away with because of his skill in the mid to late game, that mostly only works at all because of the headless chickens.
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I have been doing a similar style recently vs. Protoss (just with a standard opener), and ZvP went from being my worst match up to being my best. This kills a standard death ball so ridicoulisly fast it isn't even funny.
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On April 12 2011 05:20 seodoth wrote: I think the question we need to ask is: can the first 4 to 6 lings caus enough damage to the protoss to make the build worthwile in regards to other builds, or will it only be worthwhile when the protoss overreacts (forge cannons).
The number of replays showing the early lings doing exactly zero or very little damage would seem to indicate that it's *not* worthwhile, given how big the economic penalty is. In addition to completely brushing off the sacrifices that are made when 9pooling (refusing to even acknowledge their existence!), the OP also brushes off a full minute slower hatchery as if it's nothing, but even if everything else were equal (its not, but pretend for a moment), that alone gives a significant larva disadvantage, because the hatchery would have spawned 4 larva in that minute, completely negating the 4 extra larva from having the queen 40 seconds faster, and costing another ~6 larvae from injects that cannot be done on a hatchery that isn't complete yet.
In fact, if you add up all of the larva disadvantages the 9pool accrues in the early game, that might even add up to requiring a much earlier macro hatch.
I do believe the replays clearly show that it's very worthwhile when the protoss over-reacts, though, and that over-reaction appears to be very common, although it's tough to really gauge that when only winning replays are posted. (I really wish it were a requirement for players posting guides to include some losses, showing the dangers of the build, how things can go wrong, and what to do about it)
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On April 12 2011 02:46 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 02:08 aXa wrote:Now, i say it again, and again: i have run test, 9 pool is NOT economically weaker than a 13 pool. The 3 early drone you didnt make are replenish by the 3 more larva you get faster with the larva inject. If it is weaker, we are talking about a ridiculous margin.
... Like others in this thread, I also seriously doubt you could hold off a well-executed 4gate *from a protoss who knows how to best respond to an early pool*. If you see a forge, they've already done it wrong, and have given you a chance to catch back up, which I freely admit you did extremely admirably, you're obviously a very good player. But if the protoss puts down a cyber or a second gateway instead of a forge, and is anywhere near your skill level, I'd be willing to place a bet that you flat out lose to a counterpush a huge percentage of the time. ...
While I really appreciate the time and effort aXa put into his strategy and post, I think Skrag is right here. However, I think there's one part of the economic analysis that might have been overlooked: later gas. The 9 pool -> 6 slowlings puts your opponent on the back foot, allowing just a little bit of breathing room to get that queen and drone up a bit more before throwing drones into an extractor. If you've managed to secure map dominance by killing the outside probe and locking down the protoss ramp, the immediate threat of a 4 gate is lessened. It feels like a very fine line for the protoss to walk: proper build order, while making sure the front is secure, and pushing out with a probe + escort safely in order to apply good early pressure.
At the highest level of play, I'm afraid P will be able to manage it, but good news for those of us in diamond up to mid? masters: a lot of Protoss players aren't that good. I really like the fact that an order like this throws most P players off their standard build. I just won twice in a row against a higher rated guy, because after the 6 lings showed up, he started playing terribly. My execution wasn't ideal, but I'm used to constant adjustments based on scouting and resources, not a set build up to specific timing pushes. Dealing with an *improvised* "forge -> cannon into 3 warpgate + stargate" push was a LOT easier than handling one that has been fine-tuned by pro players and memorized.
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I have take a look at more number about 9 pool and 13 pool. The economical damage is too thin to not look at the advantage it gives you, even if protoss handle it perfectly. The average income for a 9 pool in the 5 minutes is 510, whereas it is 560 for a 13 pool. For that, you gain: a better creep spread without a third queen required any time soon (remebmer that you can pull out 3 creep tumor without missing any larve inject) a better timing on upgrade: you don't need speed that quickly, so less wastage, you're also safe to any canon rush attempt, which happens a lot on ladder game sadly. My point is, this build is not that weak compare to 13 pool, it is pretty much equal. And as long as protoss are doing so bad against it, i will keep going ^^
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I am gonna definitelly try this, but before simple question:
Are you sure it's worth doing 9 pool just to force forge and a single cannon? For me it looks like toss is going to be in a better spot after this your semi all-in.
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I like that more people are using banelings vs protoss they are quite potent, i don't like the 9pool though. It might catch a lot of people off guard on maps like metalopolis or DQ but on bigger maps simply chrono boosting 2 zealots will be enough. You might want to just get your pool at a normal time if your on a bigger map.
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It's not a semi all in. It's just a pressure build into a lot of eco. Commanding the game by forcing your opponent to make a forge is huge, i think you should try and see by yourslef how intuitive it feels for you after this.
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On April 12 2011 05:46 aXa wrote: I have take a look at more number about 9 pool and 13 pool. The economical damage is too thin to not look at the advantage it gives you, even if protoss handle it perfectly. The average income for a 9 pool in the 5 minutes is 510, whereas it is 560 for a 13 pool.
what are the total resources mined for both builds after 5 minutes?
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overall ressource score indicate 2600 to 2400
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I do this build (8 pool with 8 lings, close enough) in all maps in which you can scout one of the bases with an ovie, so let me say one thing: you protosses who think you can kill off an 8 pool 8 ling attack with a regular gate/cyber opening, either you've only played crappy Zergs, or you're overestimating yourselves. If you everything perfectly, you will still have to waste chronoboosts on zealots, lose mining time (from the probes youll have to pull until you have two zlots), and have to kill your own pylon (because you won't have 2 zealots by the time it finishes).
I think the real unanswered question here is: HOW much damage the 8/9 pool has to do to be even with a standard hatch first with delayed gas? My guess is around 300 min of damage is quite enough. If he did the perfect Gate/Forge (and I made 8 lings), I have to accept I essentially gave him a free forge and about 3-5 probes, though at least I can keep those lings for future uses and expand knowing a 4gate will be delayed.
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I disagree with the fact that 9pool is not efficient enough to do damage. I think aXa manage to prove that in a large amount of games, the 9pool can give you an early advantage. Most of the Protoss are: - 4gating - or Forge Expand - or 3Gate expand against Zerg.
Obviously, a MC's 4gate made, which is made close to perfection, can kick your butt any time. We agree with that. But Most of the gamers are not MC either ProGamers. Then 9pool opening is a decent aggressive opening against Master's Protoss and may be the unique aggressive one.
I'm playing a 15 extract 15pool which is a safe and decent opening against Protoss. This opening leads me 95% of the time to a late game (if I'm not killed). And Late game against a Protoss is not the best Match Up for Zerg.
In the 9pool case, The rate ratio w/l is very important. As I see aXa gives us a good rate then I think this build is effective against Master's. But skrag still right when he explained that this is not a perfect build. Obviously, all opening can be beaten if you chose the perfect counter.
In that case, Zealot before Core is uncommon, I usually see Gate/Core/Zealot and Sentry/Stalker.
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for the zerg openings question I recommend this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481 True, there's no information on 9 pool, but the best opening is 14 hatch followed by 15 pool. The closest to the 9 pool, the 10 pool seems to be the worst economically. Wish they had some data on the 9 pool though =[
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On April 12 2011 05:46 aXa wrote: I have take a look at more number about 9 pool and 13 pool. The economical damage is too thin to not look at the advantage it gives you, even if protoss handle it perfectly. The average income for a 9 pool in the 5 minutes is 510, whereas it is 560 for a 13 pool. For that, you gain: a better creep spread without a third queen required any time soon (remebmer that you can pull out 3 creep tumor without missing any larve inject) a better timing on upgrade: you don't need speed that quickly, so less wastage, you're also safe to any canon rush attempt, which happens a lot on ladder game sadly. My point is, this build is not that weak compare to 13 pool, it is pretty much equal. And as long as protoss are doing so bad against it, i will keep going ^^
Still taking an instantaneous measurement, without any thought whatsoever to disadvantages that were gained before the numbers equalized. And for the record, this measurement is no different than a drone count, since income is defined exactly by the current number of drones working. Having near-equal numbers (although 60 minerals per minute is hardly "insignificant") at the 5 minute mark is irrelevant.
And the reason you don't miss any injects is because your HATCHERY IS LATE. A later pool can have the same creep spread by skipping an inject, and still be ahead overall, because it didn't sacrifice 6 early drones (yes, you eventually make up the difference, but if one drone starts mining at the one minute mark, another starts mining at the 3 minute mark, which drone was more valuable?). The later pool has that choice, but you do not, because your expansion hatchery is so slow that you couldn't inject it if you wanted to.
Minor point: why are we talking about a 13 pool? Who actually does that?
Because you're being so ridiculously stubborn about this, despite the fact that I've explained all of the reasons that 9pool is behind economically, I decided to run my own economy test to the 5 minute mark, just to explicitly show what you're not taking into consideration.
Since I have no clue what exact build you're actually testing against (afaik, 14g14p is the "standard" in the matchup), I'm doing what I know.
At exactly the 5 minute mark, in one of the replays you posted, you had:
17 drones, 6 lings, 3 ol, 2 queen, hatchery just barely placed (4/100) Spending 2325/200/150 Res 190/72 25/26 Ling speed not even started yet (starts at 5:14)
Doing a (mostly) standard 14 gas 14 pool, building 6 lings instead of the typical 4 (you built 6 in the replay I'm comparing against, so it's only fair), just to keep the comparison as valid as possible, I had:
18 drones 6 lings 3 ol 2 queen, hatch 68/100 Spending 2425/400/150 Res 90/212 26/26 Ling speed finished
#1: Your hatch is a full minute later. This is *huge* if you need fast spine crawlers at the natural for any reason. We'll ignore that part for a minute, because obviously early ling builds don't need spine crawlers nearly as often. The biggest part of this is that your hatchery is late enough to completely erase any advantage you thought you had from the earlier inject (which as I've already explained wasn't actually an advantage, but merely a way of trying to catch back up), and that's completely ignoring both the early wasted larva, and the fact that your second hatchery will be short an inject and a half simply because it won't be finished.
#2: your ling speed is OVER TWO MINUTES slower. I find that somewhat relevant in a ling-heavy build, don't you?
#3: Because early drones are worth more than late drones (a fact that you seem to be completely unwilling to acknowledge) you have mined a total of 350 resources. Because of this, everything about your build is far slower, everything *except* the first 6 lings, that is. If those lings don't do significant damage, YOU ARE BEHIND ECONOMICALLY.
Now can we please stop arguing this ridiculously silly point?
350 resources is clearly not "insignificant", in fact, it's about 10% of the total resources mined at that point, and that gap will only widen because the 14g14p build is going to be way ahead of you in total larva count, will be able to saturate the expansion faster, will be able to get a third faster, etc. Early advantages compound on themselves, which is why rush builds have to do significant damage to be worthwhile.
As somebody else stated, the question is not whether you are equivalent economically to a later pool. Clearly you are not, and frankly the fact that I had to go this far to demonstrate that fact is absolutely blowing my mind given that you're not a bronze player.
The question is whether you typically do enough damage to make it worth the economic sacrifice. Unfortunately, this is a very difficult question to answer, because damage can be done two ways, either by killing stuff or by forcing your opponent to build things that slow him down, and that won't help him much later. You also have to consider the fact that he's had far more workers mining for a much larger amount of time than you. Simply "forcing" a forge+cannon probably isn't enough, unless he expands too slowly. As far as actual damage dealt, I believe there were only one or two where you did any significant amount of damage at all.
Based on the replays, I would say that on average, the damage done is somewhere around a wash (I personally don't think you're doing nearly enough damage on average, but since I couldn't even begin to tell you how much is "enough", but because those lings are practically never going to do crushing-blow type damage, I think calling it a wash is perfectly fair).
But I would also say that if protoss ever get out of this "omfg early pool I have to drop a forge and completely wall of RIGHT NOW" mindset, your winrate will drop significantly using this opening.
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You can't compare a hatch first against a pool first. Of course hatch first will get you ahead economically, if you can stay alive ^^
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On April 12 2011 05:54 aXa wrote: It's not a semi all in. It's just a pressure build into a lot of eco. Commanding the game by forcing your opponent to make a forge is huge, i think you should try and see by yourslef how intuitive it feels for you after this.
And this is the other part of my problem. You're relying on the protoss to MAKE A MISTAKE by building a forge.
Protoss should absolutely not be building forges in response to a 9pool. Or a 6pool for that matter. And you have demonstrated quite exactly *why* it is a bad idea to do so. Every thread about "how do I defend Xpool as protoss" that I've ever seen here is full of horrible advice such as "it's impossible to hold unless you put down a forge and wall off", when the truth of the matter is that not only is it perfectly possible to hold off even a 6 pool without a forge, but that unless you went forge first, you simply cannot get cannons up fast enough without screwing yourself over for the midgame, because on seeing the forge, the zerg can switch to a heavy economic game, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, having already wasted money on static defenses that are going to be completely useless for most, if not all, of the game.
It's only a matter of time before you start meeting players who respond appropriately, or protoss start getting less stupid in general against early pools. And frankly, you've probably hastened that process by writing a guide for a build that, by your own admission, relies on the protoss plopping down a forge. lol
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Well of course, the main thing who hold me about posting this thread earlier was: Damn, but what if they figure out a way to counter my whole strat? But i really want to see zerg player doing better at pro level. I really think a player like Idra using this strat could easily beat all those protoss. Maybe if we spread the word it will work.
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On April 11 2011 22:25 aXa wrote: On April 11 2011 22:25 aXa wrote:
It may be counter-intuitive, but protoss usually thinks that you are behind because of this "rush"
^This is the bane of my existence.
It's not counter intuitive to think that someone is behind after a failed rush, it's actually sound RTS thinking.
However, the larvae mechanic allows you to rapidly get back into the game, almost unbelievably well. Fellow Protoss, going for a 1 base timing push after a 6-10 pool is such a stupid idea. Just pretend it never happened and expand faster since you got a forge up sooner. Beat him from there.
As a Toss player, this build scares the shit out of me.
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I still like going forge in response to any pre-10 pool. I know forge responses are poo poo'ed by a lot of people, but I have had very good success countering aggressive zerg openers with a 4 +1 timing attack. A single cannon is all you need.
I fail a lot more when I pretend zerg didn't fast pool and try to expo. When you do this, you give zerg a huge window to outmacro you.
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I don't know if anyone else has noted this, but if your opponent does anything whatesoever with a forge for defense he is behind, not unless he fast expands. But if you 9pool and he throws down a forge and a cannon thats 400 minerals spent (pylon forge cannon) that isn't actually helping forward his build...
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Well the pylone can't be count as a waste, but otherwise you are right.
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On April 12 2011 07:21 whoopadeedoo wrote: I still like going forge in response to any pre-10 pool. I know forge responses are poo poo'ed by a lot of people, but I have had very good success countering aggressive zerg openers with a 4 +1 timing attack. A single cannon is all you need.
I fail a lot more when I pretend zerg didn't fast pool and try to expo. When you do this, you give zerg a huge window to outmacro you.
The replays in the OP show pretty clearly why defending with a forge is a bad idea IMO. If the zerg continues building lings past the first 6, and stays on one base, sure, you're going to be totally fine, and pretty much anything you decide to do (as long as you don't die), is going to work. But if the zerg expands and drones up, you're going to end up behind economically by a large margin, and the forge + cannon delays your counterattack long enough that he can be totally safe.
I suspect that most of your counterattack successes are against players who are either one-basing, or who don't adequately prepare despite the fact that you've given them more than enough time to. I could definitely be wrong though, and I'd be interested in seeing replays if you have any handy.
When seeing the forge, the zerg has two choices: try to onebase bust somehow, or to expand and drone up. Putting down the forge puts you in a very tough spot IMO, because you have to keep accurate tabs on what the zerg is doing. If he continues building lings, you need to build units so you don't die, but if he doesn't keep building lings, you have to expand ASAP.
If you don't put down the forge, you can just build up units and counter, knowing that no matter what he's doing, you'll be totally in the clear. If he's going for a one base bust, you'll have a far superior economy and be able to overwhelm him, and if he's going for economy, there's a good-sized window where you can attack and just win.
The most frustrating part of this thread though is that the really good parts of the guide are being drowned out simply because the OP said things like "you're not behind economically" and "you don't even need to do any damage at all with the first 6 lings" instead of "this is the economic sacrifice you make, this is the sort of damage you need to do, and this is why it's worthwhile".
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i did it like 5 times, they always responded by making forge so far, which delays warp gate by alot and 4 gate by a lot. liking it so far, :D i keep winning with it by out macroing them. in diamond though.
i used to 11pool for aggression before into mass queens and drones- there is another thread on that build. i like this one better so far :D
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I will try and find a replay tonight, but one reason why my response seems to work is I will send my first two or three zealots. This forces Zerg to stop droning and often over-respond much worse than what I've "wasted" with a single cannon. And I do a total wall-off, meaning zerg will definitely not be going one-base mass-ling bust (a follow-up bling bust is EASILY scouted and stopped by sentries).
The +1 counter is strong ... arguably much stronger than a standard 4 gate even if you hit 45 seconds later than a non-forge 4 gate. A 4 +1 response is so strong because zerg will not have +1 carapace having gone <10 pool. Lings (which is the bulk of what Zerg can build for defense) simply melt.
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Not gonna lie, I kind of hate this as a Protoss so far. I need to start scouting on 9 instead of 13 against Zergs now
If you do a 13 gate and you don't scout early enough it can put you so behind that you are basically dead. I've had one game where I defended this pretty handily although that's because I 12 gated and got a little bit lucky (he apparently wasn't paying enough attention to his lings, he was still attacking my core as my zealot killed 2 of them)
Although I still prefer facing this to that gasfree FE, this is still a pretty sound strategy assuming you do some damage with the lings. I gotta start trying it as Zerg.
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Unless I'm going FE, I see no reason to ever not scout at 9.
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Seems like it would be better with the 11pool18hatch build.
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On April 12 2011 08:25 lorkac wrote: Seems like it would be better with the 11pool18hatch build. in 11p18h, do u make lings between 11-18 or just drone?
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On April 12 2011 09:06 qwertyindeed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:25 lorkac wrote: Seems like it would be better with the 11pool18hatch build. in 11p18h, do u make lings between 11-18 or just drone?
you're technically supposed to respond to your opponent.
If he does a 15Nexus, you damn well mass lings.
Is he doing a 4gate? Mass lings at 18 until you stop the push.
Essentially you build 2-4 lings to stop scouting/pylons and drone to 13-14 with a queen out before grabbing a hatch. Depending on what you scout you either drone heavy or go all in.
It was figured out that 11pool18hatch gives the most larva in like the first 7ish minutes?
If you drone heavy (save for 2 lings) then you're as good as a 14hatch15pool. But you have the option going aggressive early and it forces your opponent to play honest. The biggest drawback is that you won't have a spine crawler in you nat soon enough to stop a rush and your gas is very delayed (as in delayed ling speed). However, this 9pool build is okay with delayed speed so it sounds like 11pool18hatch would just be better both economically as well as aggressively(more larva)
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It looks like nobody cares about zergling/baneling/infestor, which is the main point of the guide, but they really get passionate when it comes about 9 pool ^^
@evan: gonna check it out
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The real problem in this game is that you didn't drone hard enough. 25 minute of game, with only 2 pushes from protoss behalf, and only 40 drone? You are supposed to squeez a hundred drone. Because of that, you didn't have enough production capacity to make the required amount of zergling. You spend all your gas on infestor. You should have made few of them and getting better upgrade for zergling. Against a protoss who turtle, go for the baneling drop in mineral line.
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On April 12 2011 05:54 aXa wrote: It's not a semi all in. It's just a pressure build into a lot of eco. Commanding the game by forcing your opponent to make a forge is huge, i think you should try and see by yourslef how intuitive it feels for you after this.
Going 9 pool and 26 hatch instead of 15 pool 16 hatch is huge as well. I think I gonna compare those build to see income/drones/etc.
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On April 12 2011 17:29 aXa wrote: It looks like nobody cares about zergling/baneling/infestor, which is the main point of the guide, but they really get passionate when it comes about 9 pool ^^ Dude im loving your composition and ill post some replays here when i get some matches against good protoss.
@evanthebouncy!: I checked your replay on backwater gulch... tho... errm the name says its backwater gulch but actually the replay is of a ZvP on typhon peaks anyways: You just got out macrod hard on this game. The toss went for an sick risky fast nexus on a map with a very open natural. He had no production capacity whatsoever till around the 8 minutes. All the time he was 10 more harvesters ahead and his supply did not weaver from yours. My experience thus far with the bling-infest-ultra compo is that it needs so much gas, so you cannot have your opponent out macro you. The other part is, that you need to kill his army in one powerful blow, so he has a hard time to rebuild. Land fungals, surround and blow it up with the bling ultra. But you wasted prematurely your banelings on zealots and let his bulk stalker army escape. The protoss then had the chance to use his macro advantage and refill his weakened ball. Rest of the match was also a lot of chaos and army miss rally, only portions of zerg vs ball of toss, etc.
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Lately i played a linq /bling versus a protoss friend with a fast 3rd + macro hatch. But started with 15 hatch 14 pool. And it was so funny and a nice gameplay variation, that i thought i should do this on ladder soon. Now i will definitely stick with it : ) Thanks for the good post!
About the APM thing... On lower leagues the opponent doesn't have perfect mechanics and micro, too so I don't think it matters that much. Sure good injects weill make this much more effective.
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I really dislike the OPs build here.
First, the basis of the build is a 9-pool.
Now, I'm a pretty cheesy guy and am willing to open up 7-pool 50% of the time vs a Protoss, but a 9-pool is going to do jack vs a super standard 12-gate when you chrono out a zealot.
7-pool is slow enough due to the fact that a forge-first build WILL have a cannon out in time to stop you from doing any meaningful damage, but a 9-pool isn't even going to discourage a standard 4-gate timing push due to the fact that you won't get up your opponents ramp before a chrono'd zealot is out.
The only thing a 9-pool is going to do is put you behind economically and ensure the 4-gate push does max damage.
Then you try to justify your terribly timed "not-so-early" aggression with talking about a wholly different tactic in ling/bling/infestor.
Not to say that ling/bling/infestor is bad on its own, but it doesn't justify the terrible opener, nor does it actually have anything to do with it what-so-ever.
This is 2 different tactics mashed together into one thread, and I'm sorry I bumped it with this post.
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Lol guy, you just don't know what you are talking about. A 9 pool does damage against a standard 12 gate chrooboosted zealot, as my replay shows. It doesn't put you economically ENOUGH (yes it does, but not a lot at all) to make you lose the game, especially against a 4 gate, the easiest thing to play against when you do mass zergling. A standard 4 warp gate require 20 probe on 1 base. With this 9 pool opener i suggested, you are at 20-23 probe on 2 base, with 2 queen. It means that you can produce enough army to hold the agression without any problem, because you have a better production and economy capacity, as well as a better compo. You are just arguing things and you don't have any proof. You make me laugh, talking about 7 pool, a strat you certainly can't recover from. With a 9 pool, you can.
Zergling baneling infestor can be done with any kind of opening. If i made the 9 pool opening with this late game compo together, it's only because i don't think it was worthing it to make 2 different topic about ZvP.
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I want to honestly ask why some of you guys even post here?
There is more to the build than 9 pool, it is actually a REALLY good unit composition for zvp right now.
No one is forcing you to use the 9 pool, or any part of the build.
Yet aXa is able to win at the master's level with this unit composition, after setting himself behind with a 9 pool opening. Try pulling that off with roach/hydra/corrupter, can you win with a 9 pool opening against a forge FE toss at the master's level? Highly unlikely.
Maybe you guys should focus on the good more than the bad, I mean why not? Most of you will have to wait until you see a pro-zerg win a match with ling/bling/infestor/ultra before you will understand the value of this post.
I really appreciate Skrag going in depth as to WHY 9 pool is not so good, but now you guys are just beating a dead horse, and complaining for the sake of complaining.
Open with 14 hatch, use the unit comp, profit.
Tired of getting forcefield raped? Tired of having to mass air-to-air units to deal with a ground army, only to have a good toss switch to mass stalker while you have tons of corrupter supply? Tired of being in a 200 vs. 200 situation, equal economy, and still losing the game? This unit comp is for you. Standard toss play can't even handle it, they are going to have to start using a lot more immortals and high templar.
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Thanks Treemonkeys. I know i should let the hater hate, but writting this post took me 5 hours. I'm not english and it is not as easy as it looks like to write a so long post in a foreign language. I was really proud of myself when i found by myself all this strategy, 9 pool and ling bling infestor, more so because i was frustrated to lose against protoss less skilled than me. I was frustrated to see Cruncher beat Idra either. It does matter to me.
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My gripe isn't with the ling/bling/infestor tactic. It's good, I've used it. My gripe is with the 9-pool, which is ineffective; and the general format of the OP, which tries to prove its point by combining two wholly different and unrelated tactics.
9-pool sets you behind while simultaneously being too slow to do meaningful economic damage to your opponent.
It's an ineffective half-cheese that doesn't hit early enough to get past standard play while still reaping all the benefits of economic suicide.
If you want a cheesy opener vs Protoss that isn't 100% all in, do a 7 pool. Your lings will get to your opponents base a full 30 seconds earlier than a 9-pool would and having that 1 extra drone keeps your income flowing just enough to follow up with an economic game when compared to a 6 pool.
Having a good mid-game doesn't justify a terrible opener.
This should be 2 different threads. One to discuss the benefits of ling/bling/infestor. This could bloom in to a fruitful discussion of the pros/cons of the build and talk about tactics to effectively employ this unit comp.
The second thread could discuss 9-pool, which would quickly be rejected and be pushed down into the abyss.
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You basically just posted the same rant you posted a few posts above, again. You REALLY don't like 9 pool, I get it. How about making your own thread that you desire, sharing your replays of you supposedly going ling/bling/infester, or contributing in some way.
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You tried to tell me to ignore the first half of the build and use the 2nd half, telling me I'm going to have to see a pro use ling/bling/infestor before I can justify it, which was way off.
I'm not going to get into a onesie-twosie post fight here, my point isn't about that part of the build, which is decent. It's about the fact that the OP, and this thread is so mucked up by throwing the 9-pool in there, that I can't find anything meaningful in this thread to help my ling/bling/infestor play get better.
Either way, this is the last post I'll make here, continue on how you please.
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aXa,
I watched your "ZvPStandard" game where you lost your 3rd but still won the game. When you lost your 3rd is also the timing I have the most problems with. I have lost many games where I tried to defend the 3rd and wasn't ready too. I think it is safe to say, just take a later 3rd? It also seems like you really have to CRUSH that first push completely. I lose games where I *almost* crush it but one colossus and some stalkers survive and then it just snowballs out of control, probably because of how larva expensive everything is once you lose the initial fight.
I am thinking that we don't have to worry as much about staying up one base against the toss with this composition BUT once it is close to ultralisk timing, we really need a fuck ton of both gas and minerals. I am working on taking a much later 3rd but getting the 3rd and 4th at the same time, using one for gas only.
I also feel I lose to that mid-game timing because of having too many infestors and not enough gas for banelings. 3-4 seems like a sweet spot for me, just enough to cover his whole army with fungal. 6 seems like too many and costs me the game, if I almost crush the army I am left with no energy infestors and nothing else. I don't use NP as much as you do though.
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On April 12 2011 23:59 Jermstuddog wrote: This should be 2 different threads. One to discuss the benefits of ling/bling/infestor. This could bloom in to a fruitful discussion of the pros/cons of the build and talk about tactics to effectively employ this unit comp.
The second thread could discuss 9-pool, which would quickly be rejected and be pushed down into the abyss.
+1.
There's a reason nobody talks about 9pooling, but the ling/bling/infestor midgame, adding ultras lategame is something that's very interesting, is becoming quite popular, and seems very strong, at least in the current metagame.
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@axa
the reason people keep bashing 9pool and not the rest of the build is because they like everything except the opening. That's a good thing.
The reason why they are looking at the 9pool is because it's already been talked about in a few threads. It was found out that 11pool18hatch is the best early pool opening and 14hatch15pool is the best late pool opening. The standard safe opening is 14extractor14pool because o zergling speed. If you forgo zergling speed but want early lings you do 11pool18hatch. If you want to defend with spines instead, then 14hatch15pool.
These openers are mathematically better than 9pool both in terms of larva and minerals.
That's all that's being said.
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The 9 pool and ling/bane/infest discussions should be kept separate.
And no, its not unanimous in these forums that a 9 pool in the circumstances you discribed is a bad thing. You HAVE to do damage, but 300-400 mins of damage and/or a delayed cyber core is enough. At most you gave him a few probes and a free forge/cannon, which is workable.
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I didn't know, that there is good way to actually hurt toss with banelings and i LOVE IT ;-) I love even hated 9 pool in there, because ... you are not that behind (yeah, there are better openers), you can actually force toss to play something else then his practised build which can be fun ;-)
But ... i watched some of replays and ... they are bit off tbh ;-( Bad forcefielding from toss player (you always found a way around them, which is unacceptable)...
DO you have one against 5 or 6 gate or better both? ;-)
Thx for your effort posting it ;-)
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On April 13 2011 02:49 Pamposek wrote: I didn't know, that there is good way to actually hurt toss with banelings and i LOVE IT ;-) I love even hated 9 pool in there, because ... you are not that behind (yeah, there are better openers), you can actually force toss to play something else then his practised build which can be fun ;-)
But ... i watched some of replays and ... they are bit off tbh ;-( Bad forcefielding from toss player (you always found a way around them, which is unacceptable)...
DO you have one against 5 or 6 gate or better both? ;-)
Thx for your effort posting it ;-)
To be fair, it can be really, really hard to forcefield properly with mass banes. All it takes is one hole and so many sentries can die. Toss has to have nearly perfect FF or he will get punished for it.
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I use this style to crush toss on ladder (low-mid masters on USA). Now the secret is out of the bag! I don't open with 9 pool but rather 14 gas 14 pool, but everything else is basically identical. The heavy ling baneling aggression is fantastic at restricting the economy of the protoss player and avoids the late-game 200 death ball scenario. You really do need to keep on top of your larva injects though, or you will get crushed with 1k in the bank and be a sad panda.
Do not be afraid to stop making drones and instead throw army after army at the toss to keep their supply low! The mantra of many zergs is 'zerg needs +1 base on terran or toss to win'. I don't like this statement, because it implies that a 5 base zerg vs 4 base terran/toss is OK. Fighting against 4 base terran/toss in my book is NEVER OK, even if you have 8 bases yourself! Be aggressive and don't let your opponent obtain a 3rd base! The difference in gas mining between 3 base zerg 2 base toss/terran is +50%! This drops to a measly +25% when its a 5base vs 4 base scenario.
On paper banelings sound like a horrible idea vs toss, but in reality when you see 100 upgraded banelings roll into a protoss deathball with zergling backup and crush it to pieces, you will become a believer XD
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On April 11 2011 22:25 aXa wrote: Against a forge expand
The canon will often be up before you can slip through with your zergling. So no damage at all and he will probably fast expand. It's still okay for you: Don't put any drone in gaz, take a second and a third expand immediately. Then do the usual following i will describe next. You can maybe force more than 1 canon with your initial pressure zergling, it can be useful. You know that protoss is not gonna move anytime soon so take map control and drone hard.
Like most have said this guide has a very nice midgame and lategame but the opening is poor and is only working by poor responses.
I don't see how a 9 pool that does no damage vs a low ground forge + cannon nexus build can possibly be "okay for you". It's demonstrably worse than going for any opener that gets a pool after an overlord. He can go hurt you badly with a stalker or even cannon rushing your expansions while building up a strong 6gate +1 timing attack that will end the game. You can't deny him from scouting what you're up to with slow lings.
A more proper response to a 7/8/9 pool is to do everything normal but put only 1 probe on gas chrono boost out the zealot before starting the core and then pulling off 5 probes when the lings arrive to mineral walk down the ramp and trap the lings between the zealot and the probes. Killing any of the lings you can but certainly preventing them from doing any damage beyond the lost mining time. As soon as your 2nd zealot is out you are completely safe as protoss and you haven't delayed your warpgate tech at all (1 probe on gas gives you 50 gas when the core finishes) from there you just do a 20 probe 1gas 4gate and win. Zerg cannot survive this unless protoss makes a mistake.
A one gas 4gate is already hard for zerg to hold when they have more larva and a better economy with faster ling speed I don't understand the rationale for thinking you're fine against a 4gate unless the protoss makes a mistake, like building a forge & cannon to hold after opening up gateway at his ramp.
I don't suppose you have an account on NA so we can play it out a few times?
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On April 13 2011 00:26 Treemonkeys wrote: aXa,
I watched your "ZvPStandard" game where you lost your 3rd but still won the game. When you lost your 3rd is also the timing I have the most problems with. I have lost many games where I tried to defend the 3rd and wasn't ready too. I think it is safe to say, just take a later 3rd? It also seems like you really have to CRUSH that first push completely. I lose games where I *almost* crush it but one colossus and some stalkers survive and then it just snowballs out of control, probably because of how larva expensive everything is once you lose the initial fight.
I am thinking that we don't have to worry as much about staying up one base against the toss with this composition BUT once it is close to ultralisk timing, we really need a fuck ton of both gas and minerals. I am working on taking a much later 3rd but getting the 3rd and 4th at the same time, using one for gas only.
I also feel I lose to that mid-game timing because of having too many infestors and not enough gas for banelings. 3-4 seems like a sweet spot for me, just enough to cover his whole army with fungal. 6 seems like too many and costs me the game, if I almost crush the army I am left with no energy infestors and nothing else. I don't use NP as much as you do though.
Yeah definitely don't overmake infestors. They are like templars and need support. I thought they'd just be omfg pwn everything but no they are not. Baneling still deals more damange than fungal, even though fungle is puffed.
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very interesting, I'll definitely try it out.
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Finally, aXa strategy is fine if we assume that he can do a minimum damage to the Protoss economy. If not, this is a waste of income due to the 6lings cost. But if we assume that the 6Lings manage to do some damage / waste of mining time / force defence or just disturb the BO of the opponent, this is an interesting opening.
As mentioned upper, this is a question of microing Lings / Zealot&Probes => Best micro wins.
I like the aXa's way of thinking. May be Zerg is not only a reactive race during the early game. We can be more aggressive with a good win ratio against Protoss... Sometimes people think something impossible which is not. Remember Boxer and his night elves... he develops the race, the strategy... Sometimes we need to think different to go forward. I like The aggressive build presented by aXa!
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On April 13 2011 06:21 BlueLagoon wrote: Finally, aXa strategy is fine if we assume that he can do a minimum damage to the Protoss economy. If not, this is a waste of income due to the 6lings cost. But if we assume that the 6Lings manage to do some damage / waste of mining time / force defence or just disturb the BO of the opponent, this is an interesting opening.
As mentioned upper, this is a question of microing Lings / Zealot&Probes => Best micro wins.
I like the aXa's way of thinking. May be Zerg is not only a reactive race during the early game. We can be more aggressive with a good win ratio against Protoss... Sometimes people think something impossible which is not. Remember Boxer and his night elves... he develops the race, the strategy... Sometimes we need to think different to go forward. I like The aggressive build presented by aXa! What are you talking about?
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I noticed you mention that you don't prefer 9 pool on Backwater Gulch because of the longer rush distance. With 9 pool I have actually managed around 70-80% wins on that map (back when the ramp was terrible).
Since you don't know where he is going to spawn, I first send my overlord to one of the bases then after making the next overlord I do an extractor trick and send that drone to one of the other bases. Rally the 6 lings to the middle and right before they get there your drone and overlord will get to their respective bases and the path of the lings won't really be delayed. I then follow this up by taking the scouting drone and sending it to a gold base to make a hatch.
Basically how this ends up is: 1. The protoss player makes a forge. You should have enough time to prepare for 4 gate / dt / blink stalker / void ray if you time everything correctly. 2. The protoss holds with minimal damage and did not make a forge. You will have a tough time but it's not impossible.
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This guide is wonderfully written and I'll be practicing this build
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About Backwater, the natural is so horrible i don't even consider playing on it.
Rudiment, what do you mean "wonderfully written" ? I'm not a native and i feel everytime i have to write that my english is poor, and i can't find a beauty in my word as i can in french. Do you mean it is clear and understandable?
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I am practicing this build and I have to say that I am having APM problems, but I still love it.
Even if I do zero damage with 9 pool I am not out, this build makes the game SO more fun, I was pretty sad for only knowing 15hatch 14 pool build basicly >.>
I was random since when this new season started and one of the reasons I wanted to focus on 1 race was to increase my options with build orders, cheese and stuff (be expert with 1 race). But unfortunetelly I ain't any creative to do such builds, so thank you for your time! This and the hidra drop followed by mutas are my favorite builds against protoss now
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We almost attend a zergling baneling infestor ultra on NASL tonight, Sheth vs Artosis game 1.
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On April 13 2011 11:56 aXa wrote: We almost attend a zergling baneling infestor ultra on NASL tonight, Sheth vs Artosis game 1. It was pretty much known before that Baneling infestor Ultra was good vs Protoss. Sheth didn't open 9 pool though
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Since you seem to be catching so much flack by the automatons, I'll give you my experience.
I read your guide, watched all your replays, and played a handful of games using your strategy in mid to upper diamond. It worked remarkably well. Here are some thoughts.
The 9 pool. Most non-elite protoss react extremely poorly to a 9-pool and consequently you can win the game just from that. In fact, in one game, I didn't even make lings. He overmade pylons to block and a forge, and I just went straight back to drones. You can amplify the mindgame by showing the baneling nest really early because they'll assume baneling bust is coming after the 9pool. If they do react properly (which people are sure to do if this becomes more popular), I'm not convinced the 9-pool is worth doing because...
Defending 4-gate. I didn't get enough experience with someone who reacts properly and STILL four gate on time. I've historically had terrible luck defending 4-gates with just zerglings, but perhaps I need to rethink how early to start unit production. This is an area that I think needs to be worked out.
Early Midgame weakness. How does this build effectively handle early air? Like three-gate-stargate all-in? You are fine against harass because early evo means quick spores, but against one-base zealot/voidray?
Endgame mindgames. My -favorite- part of this build is how it uses the metagame to its advantage. Protoss players are so completeyl used to the idea that they can just sit back and be passive and build up a deathball that they won't attack even if it's obvious, from the replay, they'd win the game. In several of your replays I felt the protoss had a big enough army to possibly win the game, but none of them wanted to take the risk. They always want to mass up their deathball which is unkillable. This means they'll play passive letting you also macro up your superior unit composition. This works remarkably well with the metagame in its current state.
Endgame unit composition. The first time I saw your army tear through a deathball I was utterly shocked. I watched it again to figure out what is happening and it's actually quite genius. The counter to mass lings is being tightly packed, but sadly if you do this, the lings hold you place, and the banelings just wipe everything. The counter to banelings to be spread out, but if you do this, the insanely badass zerglings just wipe everything. It's amazing synergy.
Also a good tip here is that zerglings are VERY mineral efficient but very larva inefficient, so making an early macro hatch, or a second macro hatch if you get a gold third, is a great insight. That's not expensive, since the lings are so cost effective, but it greatly helps deal with the larva issues.
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This is a very well written guide. The author has very interesting transitions that I think are very viable.
I've recently been trying ling/infestor play myself, although I haven't gone as in-depth as aXa. aXa, just wondering what you think about infestor usage - you say 3 infestors is enough. In my games I've made anywhere from 6-12 infestors and used neural parasite and fungal growth, but it seems if you neural parasite too many of the collosi then they just become un-parasited 12 seconds later and proceed to destroy your ling based army. So I'm definitely considering trying fewer infestors as you suggest, and using the gas on banelings instead. Seems that the banelings would work very effectively with this combination -> harrassment with baneling drops and DPS on death balls once you can destroy force fields using collosus.
This is a great guide and I think people should try it out before criticizing it! The 9 pool part is really up to the player and not really a core part of the build. It's just what aXa does. This strategy could easily be used off of any zerg opening.
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I dont know why everyone is making this so complicated, sure it is undisputable that the 9-pool puts you behind economically, but the reason why it is still a strong strat at this point in time is due to the current ZvP metagame.
This build (both the early pool ling pressure and the ling/bling/infestor/ultra) exploits the passive forcefield heavy deathball style that protoss have become so comfortable with, and it can easily hold any kind of early game all in they may try to do if you have decent scouting at all. That is why so many master level protoss are probably having trouble with it, because it pushes them out of their comfort zone. (and being a super dynamic, responsive player is definitely not a requirement to get into masters for a non-zerg player)
Now while you may think like a robot and assume that because this strategy does put you at an economic disadvantage that is a bad build, concerning the 9-pool opener or whatever. But you have to understand that builds like this are REQUIRED in order for the metagame to shift. Yes eventually protoss players as a whole will become better in their responses, and at that point you probably wont be able to get the damage you need out of the super early pool, but the whole point is that this kind of thinking is taking what protoss players are comfortable with and forcing them to adapt their thinking.
Another example of this is the +1 30 ling or so timing attack at 6:15-7:00 minutes to deny P's expo, which when ppl first started doing it it seemed like pretty much a hard counter to 3 gate sentry expand, but as protoss players learned how to micro better against it and get the proper number of sentries and zealots out in time, it was not nearly as effective. Even though that attack overall isnt as effective anymore, its still one more thing that good protoss players will have to wonder whether or not you are doing.
TLDR : this build is GREAT in the current metagame both the early pool and mid-late unit comp, which is evidenced by the sheer number of horrible responses by Protoss even at the masters level, and just because a build is not as numerically economical as another doesnt mean that it isnt going to force the protoss from now on to think about it in the back of his head, maybe even causing them to make changes to the way that they previously played.
Edit: Another small point I had about the actual build is think it would be better every time to only build 1 drone at 11 and 4 lings instead of 6. This will slightly reduce the amount of damage you need to do, and i think 4 is a great number because as he stated it is the max number of lings that can hit a walled-off building at once
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how would this do if you built a zealot before cyber and then went 5 gate zealots?
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I am trying to transition into a much more aggressive Zerg, and I think this is the build I will be praccing for ZvP from now on. I'm kinda sick of the stigma that is attached to Zerg 'MACRO OR DIE'. It's time to put the hurting back onto the opponent.
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Great post, I also think the new ling bling style vs protoss is the way to go. Normally I include drops later on, but I've never thought about opening 9 pool. Will have to give it a try sometime. But have you considered your reaction to a 2 gate? He can block with a pylon and make more zealots and attack your base, during the time you need to drone. And you won't have an expansion up for the crawlers, and your lings are pretty slow too. What happens then?
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On April 13 2011 08:20 aXa wrote: About Backwater, the natural is so horrible i don't even consider playing on it.
Rudiment, what do you mean "wonderfully written" ? I'm not a native and i feel everytime i have to write that my english is poor, and i can't find a beauty in my word as i can in french. Do you mean it is clear and understandable?
It is well explained. Not too complicated. Good guide, overall.
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Your english in excellent, much better then my french :p. Interesting take on the zvp matchup. Early pool opening have all been shunned and discounted as cheese to the point of obscurity, but many players still use them to great effect and the potential of them has definitely not been explored.
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Against 2 gate zealot, you can hold quite easily with queen and zergling. Of course, you'll prefer to make drone, but you have to stay alive and holding the 2 gate zealot will not put the protoss in a good situation either. The thing is, its not a problem in this build to drone up later than you usually do, as long as you establish map control. Then he won't move out and you are able to drone quickly, because this build with macro hatch gives you a lot of larvae. Check the unit tab in the replay i posted: Sometimes i'm behind in drone in the early game, but at the end i always have more than 100.
About infestor, 3 is enough for mid game, 6 is a max in late game. Infestor are really fragile (don't forget than colossi have the same range as a neural parasite spell) and they are not the damage dealer or even the deal breaker. Full upgrade crackling are, as long as you have baneling to soften the zealot (they are a threat when well upgraded) Infestor allow you to control the battle better to lock down unit for fex seconds, lessen the dps while mindcontrol the colossi (or stepping on forfield^^)
So are ultralisk: They certainly are not the damage dealer in this unit composition. They are mainly here to step on forcefield and take some hit. But in battle, you got to be lucky if they hit more than 3 time: The zergling swarm will not allow them to reach the protoss unit efficiently. I think in one of my replay, we see in the final battle that my ultra are doing near from nothing.
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On April 13 2011 22:17 aXa wrote: So are ultralisk: They certainly are not the damage dealer in this unit composition. They are mainly here to step on forcefield and take some hit. But in battle, you got to be lucky if they hit more than 3 time: The zergling swarm will not allow them to reach the protoss unit efficiently. I think in one of my replay, we see in the final battle that my ultra are doing near from nothing.
The bolded point cannot be emphasized enough, IMO. If you can't stomp the forcefields, even a small number of colossus will be able to rip the lings and banelings to shreds before they are able to do any damage at all.
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Hey aXa , I want to thank you for the great write up. I tried to test the build last night by my brain was so locked into the mindset of 14p/14g that I acutally struggeled not following that.
I think it's great to see some new thinking in the way higher level players deal with protoss because right the ZvP seem to greatly favour Protoss. (I am not going into a balance discussion here) And the reason for that is that even the elite level players seem to be locked in how to try to fight protoss. And even though a 9-pool might be a weaker start I think it's a good baseline to start with. People can try it and say: "Well, I liked to be able to apply pressure against a Protoss early, but I feel weak economy wise". Then you have a good starting point to think on how you can balance the two between each other.
The unit combo you use is nice. I have used it many times against Terran mech players and it seems to be able to often break them. I do notice that it's either Ultras or Zerglings that survive. Both are fine since you normally in his base after that battle, Do you see this start-up viable against Terrans too or is their wall-off simply too good with the shooting marine? I've tried to semi-rush before but I don't have the timing skill in my head\fingers to really know if I am doing the right thing or not
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With the updated economy info thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464), it is definitely worthwhile to reconsider the economy aspect of this build. It is obviously not a good economy build, but in the light of the economy findings from that thread, it is probably not nearly as bad as people seem to think it is here.
It seems to me that you sacrifice early economy for two things: possible early aggression and early map control. A 9pool will allow you to delay your opponent's expansion (if he is planning one) and generally causes him to reevaluate his life options, possibly overproducing defense. If he does not do any of this, then you are behind, however you may still be up in the mindgames: you have eliminated early expand builds from the equation and if you can defend a 4gate you are basically ahead. I'm definitely going to try to use this economic 9pool, because I have serious problems against protoss and one of these stems from toss always dictating the timings.
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I'm trying to find a new way to play ZvT, but for now i'm really stucked
When it comes to opening, 9 pool doesn't work as the wall is finished before the ling comes. I don't think anything but hatch first is good in ZvT. The zergling/bling/infestor/ultra compo works against meching and tank marine, but you give up on air control and you have to make a TON of spinecrawler to prevent drop. And hellion will roast zergling to some point. So don't know what yo do yet :/
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First I want to say this thread is SO good. This is exactly the sort of discussion that will make Zerg a a more competitive race. I will be laddering tonight trying this build and will let you know my thoughts on the actual execution, but on paper it looks like a great idea.
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I'm definitly trying this out, thanks for the effort aXa
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On April 14 2011 00:34 aXa wrote: I'm trying to find a new way to play ZvT, but for now i'm really stucked
When it comes to opening, 9 pool doesn't work as the wall is finished before the ling comes. I don't think anything but hatch first is good in ZvT. The zergling/bling/infestor/ultra compo works against meching and tank marine, but you give up on air control and you have to make a TON of spinecrawler to prevent drop. And hellion will roast zergling to some point. So don't know what yo do yet :/
It's because 9-pool is a weak cheesy build. Not surprised you don't seem to be able to play a standard game.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 14 2011 01:15 Brutus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 00:34 aXa wrote: I'm trying to find a new way to play ZvT, but for now i'm really stucked
When it comes to opening, 9 pool doesn't work as the wall is finished before the ling comes. I don't think anything but hatch first is good in ZvT. The zergling/bling/infestor/ultra compo works against meching and tank marine, but you give up on air control and you have to make a TON of spinecrawler to prevent drop. And hellion will roast zergling to some point. So don't know what yo do yet :/ It's because 9-pool is a weak cheesy build. Not surprised you don't seem to be able to play a standard game. I wouldn't say that. It puts early game power into Zerg's hand where Terrans and Protoss simply expect a fast hatch. I think it's a good idea for them to mix it up
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On April 14 2011 01:15 Brutus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 00:34 aXa wrote: I'm trying to find a new way to play ZvT, but for now i'm really stucked
When it comes to opening, 9 pool doesn't work as the wall is finished before the ling comes. I don't think anything but hatch first is good in ZvT. The zergling/bling/infestor/ultra compo works against meching and tank marine, but you give up on air control and you have to make a TON of spinecrawler to prevent drop. And hellion will roast zergling to some point. So don't know what yo do yet :/ It's because 9-pool is a weak cheesy build. Not surprised you don't seem to be able to play a standard game.
How do we warn moderator on this forum btw?
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aXa: Tyty for writing this. I was just talking to my friend about how zerg always takes back seat to protoss early game, letting them dictate how the rest of the game goes. A fan of 9 pool myself, since with the 13 queen you aren't totally dead if the lings do nothing, I was going to spend some time working on this opening ZvP, but you've already done it.
Just showing my appreciation for people who are working on aggressive zerg play. :D
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I think a lot of P and T players are not able to distinguish the differences between a 6 pool and a 9 pool/10 pool, so that something like this makes them believe, erroneously, that they are ahead or behind or whatever. Since it isn't that common, when I see a completed pool but no lings, it is hard to judge at what point in the game I am at as a Protoss player, and I could play the next 5 minutes thinking I'm ahead when I'm really not.
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On April 14 2011 01:17 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 01:15 Brutus wrote:On April 14 2011 00:34 aXa wrote: I'm trying to find a new way to play ZvT, but for now i'm really stucked
When it comes to opening, 9 pool doesn't work as the wall is finished before the ling comes. I don't think anything but hatch first is good in ZvT. The zergling/bling/infestor/ultra compo works against meching and tank marine, but you give up on air control and you have to make a TON of spinecrawler to prevent drop. And hellion will roast zergling to some point. So don't know what yo do yet :/ It's because 9-pool is a weak cheesy build. Not surprised you don't seem to be able to play a standard game. I wouldn't say that. It puts early game power into Zerg's hand where Terrans and Protoss simply expect a fast hatch. I think it's a good idea for them to mix it up
Why mix it up in ladder? I can understand that in a boX but on ladder it's just trying to catch your opponent off guard in stead of fundamental macro play.
On April 14 2011 01:53 aXa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 01:15 Brutus wrote:On April 14 2011 00:34 aXa wrote: I'm trying to find a new way to play ZvT, but for now i'm really stucked
When it comes to opening, 9 pool doesn't work as the wall is finished before the ling comes. I don't think anything but hatch first is good in ZvT. The zergling/bling/infestor/ultra compo works against meching and tank marine, but you give up on air control and you have to make a TON of spinecrawler to prevent drop. And hellion will roast zergling to some point. So don't know what yo do yet :/ It's because 9-pool is a weak cheesy build. Not surprised you don't seem to be able to play a standard game. How do we warn moderator on this forum btw?
Why? I don't see why I need to be warned. Post a replay of you vs Terran and I am sure your problem is macro.
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It need to be warned because your basically free insulting me, suggesting i can't play a standard game so i have to cheese. I'm a good master player, i used to win before using all this "cheesy" strategy. Now i just win more because i have a plan.
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Why dont you just go for the standard bling/ling play with normally timed expansions? I don't get why you go for a cheesy 9pool followed by 30(!) lings. If you make that many lings so early you will be ridiculously far behind in economy.
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go watch the replay you'll see i'm not. Stop arguing.
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I'll have to watch the replays when I get off of work. This sounds like a very interesting strat.
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On April 14 2011 02:08 tehemperorer wrote: I think a lot of P and T players are not able to distinguish the differences between a 6 pool and a 9 pool/10 pool, so that something like this makes them believe, erroneously, that they are ahead or behind or whatever. Since it isn't that common, when I see a completed pool but no lings, it is hard to judge at what point in the game I am at as a Protoss player, and I could play the next 5 minutes thinking I'm ahead when I'm really not.
HhahaA yeah there's this guy he was SO MAD he was like $#@$#@ 6 pooler and I was lik lul
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On April 14 2011 02:08 tehemperorer wrote: I think a lot of P and T players are not able to distinguish the differences between a 6 pool and a 9 pool/10 pool, so that something like this makes them believe, erroneously, that they are ahead or behind or whatever. Since it isn't that common, when I see a completed pool but no lings, it is hard to judge at what point in the game I am at as a Protoss player, and I could play the next 5 minutes thinking I'm ahead when I'm really not.
I think this is totally true, which is what makes this even tougher to deal with. My immediate reaction is to put a forge even though i might be able to get away with a standard cyber- zealot opening (which isn't always true.)
So I guess you gotta count the drones if you see a completed pool.
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Watch DarkForce vs Cruncher and cry (NASL). Damn prozergamer really need to read this thread.
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Great thread! I am a rank 1 diamond player with low masters mmr currently, and the reason I haven't been able to get into masters is I'm actually losing a lot vs aggressive zergs who pin you back in your main for a long time delaying expansion, and I'm not very confident using 4gate against zerg since I also play zerg and random last season and can easily crush 4gate with mass speedlings+ a few spines.
Not sure why more zergs aren't more proactive with their quick units which punish mistakes like lings and drops.
If my pvp wasn't so good I'd consider switching to zerg to beat protoss, because I really don't believe that protoss is all that hard to beat as a competent, open minded and level headed zerg.
Even if you're going to just go for a big burrow+claws roach timing around 12:30 that's one point in the game where you have a large food advantage and a time before more than 1 non range colossus will be up, you can simply keep engaging to take out the gas units like sentry and colossus with proper micro, and add hydras/lings if they make immortals instead of colossus.
I feel it's a lot easier for zerg to beat protoss than they're making it out to be. If you're worried about some late game mass voidray/colossus stalker sentry push and you don't think you can do anything to beat it (which you can), then just kill them or start pressuring and trading armies or dealing economic damage before and during that time.... There's a certain point in a game if you let protoss get enough bases and production that when you engage at even food armies he's just going to crush you, but he protoss also has fears of how he can lose to zerg if he doesn't work around moments of weakness and make adjustments to his plan from what he sees from the zerg.
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On April 14 2011 17:34 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 02:08 tehemperorer wrote: I think a lot of P and T players are not able to distinguish the differences between a 6 pool and a 9 pool/10 pool, so that something like this makes them believe, erroneously, that they are ahead or behind or whatever. Since it isn't that common, when I see a completed pool but no lings, it is hard to judge at what point in the game I am at as a Protoss player, and I could play the next 5 minutes thinking I'm ahead when I'm really not. I think this is totally true, which is what makes this even tougher to deal with. My immediate reaction is to put a forge even though i might be able to get away with a standard cyber- zealot opening (which isn't always true.) So I guess you gotta count the drones if you see a completed pool.
You simply do not have to put a forge down to hold off early pools. Not even a 6pool.
The sooner you practice holding a 6pool using your standard opening, the sooner you can stop worrying about silly shit like doing the wrong thing against early pools.
Against a 6 pool, dropping a forge is *okay*. It's not necessary, but you will win unless you screw up extremely badly.
Against any other early pool 7+, dropping the forge can give the zerg the leg up that he needs to pull ahead economically if he decides to do so, and if you're not very good at keeping tabs on what he's doing after the first 6 lings, you can very easily lose the game.
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On April 15 2011 01:05 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 17:34 AndAgain wrote:On April 14 2011 02:08 tehemperorer wrote: I think a lot of P and T players are not able to distinguish the differences between a 6 pool and a 9 pool/10 pool, so that something like this makes them believe, erroneously, that they are ahead or behind or whatever. Since it isn't that common, when I see a completed pool but no lings, it is hard to judge at what point in the game I am at as a Protoss player, and I could play the next 5 minutes thinking I'm ahead when I'm really not. I think this is totally true, which is what makes this even tougher to deal with. My immediate reaction is to put a forge even though i might be able to get away with a standard cyber- zealot opening (which isn't always true.) So I guess you gotta count the drones if you see a completed pool. You simply do not have to put a forge down to hold off early pools. Not even a 6pool. The sooner you practice holding a 6pool using your standard opening, the sooner you can stop worrying about silly shit like doing the wrong thing against early pools. Against a 6 pool, dropping a forge is *okay*. It's not necessary, but you will win unless you screw up extremely badly. Against any other early pool 7+, dropping the forge can give the zerg the leg up that he needs to pull ahead economically if he decides to do so, and if you're not very good at keeping tabs on what he's doing after the first 6 lings, you can very easily lose the game.
Oh really? Some guy recently started a thread saying how he regularly beats top 200 players by doing nothing but 6 pools, and has a really high success rate against protoss. Making a forge, he says, is the only possible way to stop it.
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On April 14 2011 22:59 chipman wrote: I feel it's a lot easier for zerg to beat protoss than they're making it out to be. If you're worried about some late game mass voidray/colossus stalker sentry push and you don't think you can do anything to beat it (which you can), then just kill them or start pressuring and trading armies or dealing economic damage before and during that time.... There's a certain point in a game if you let protoss get enough bases and production that when you engage at even food armies he's just going to crush you, but he protoss also has fears of how he can lose to zerg if he doesn't work around moments of weakness and make adjustments to his plan from what he sees from the zerg.
No, it's not easier than zerg is making it out to be. Do you realize that because of FF, what your suggesting requires a big investment from zerg? You want to pressure toss, attack his economy, trade armies or be aggressive at all, he either has to fail at FF and walling off or you have to invest in nydus, drops, or mutas. "just go kill him" is rarely an option in ZvP.
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I'd rather play passive in late game even with this style. But the main danger is mass canon/building constriction of space over too many bases.
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aXa, thanks for the post. I've been playing ling style for a long time and its awesome, ling portait for life! These arguements about how economical it is vs other openings are unnecesary. 9 pooling is a viable option, if you are planning on playing a style that relies on zerglings. Upgraded zerglings, banelings, and later infestors allow you to DESTROY equal protoss "army values" more efficiently, thus needing fewer drones
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Kudos for that long and detailed post. I have to admit I will not read it myself as I am no Zerg but I do want to give others the opportunity to read this by keeping it high in the list ^_^
By the way, I notice you consistently use 'gaz', but it's just 'gas' (you asked to be corrected)
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On April 15 2011 04:42 Treemonkeys wrote:
No, it's not easier than zerg is making it out to be. Do you realize that because of FF, what your suggesting requires a big investment from zerg? You want to pressure toss, attack his economy, trade armies or be aggressive at all, he either has to fail at FF and walling off or you have to invest in nydus, drops, or mutas. "just go kill him" is rarely an option in ZvP.
I played random all of last season and I never thought playing zerg vs protoss was any harder than any other matchup. It doesn't matter what race you are, if you let an opponent get into a situation where you are weak and he is strong I think it's quite obvious you're going to lose.
And while you say it is rarely ever an option, there are points when a zerg can just kill a protoss. How the game leads up to the point may vary a lot depending on both players styles. If there weren't times zerg would never take games off protoss.
I think a lot of the zerg player's loss rates vs toss is just from making careless mistakes by getting wasted by a wave of dts, massing one or two units randomly period and hoping the protoss doesn't make the cost efficient counters, and just not understand protoss build orders enough to punish protoss and get or stay ahead or at least on a level playing field.
If you think for some reason people who play the race you play are just better at the game and that's why they win, I can't help but feel that's a rather shallow way of approaching what the game is about. Instead of complaining about forcefields, why not just figure out when and how many sentries protoss will have depending on their opener, and then adjust to that. Drops are expensive to get, sure, but so are sentries, and drops of banelings nullify sentries. so.... maybe this is a good idea? Not only that but this gives you ways to bypass protoss defenses by air.. again forcefields are not a factor.
I never mentioned nydus, or mutas. All I said is speedlings are pretty good if used properly, and in terms of a zergling, baneling transition into infestor/ultras you can certainly put aside some gas while massing lings to get drops and just completely destroy probe lines... So basically you can just spend all your minerals on drones, queens, hatches, and lings until you need banes, and around the time of 2/2 or 2 attack maybe figure out a build order that will allow you to also get overlord speed and drops around the same time.
The OP focuses around setting the pace of the game. If you can force a protoss away from his initial build order you're already doing yourself a lot of good because protoss works heavily around timings.. If you can kill a gateway and delay cyb core for a long time, or force a forge + cannon(s) in main you're already far ahead because the protoss won't be getting a)- warpgate tech and/or b)- an expansion for quite some time.
Yeah there are a lot of times where attacking into a protoss in defensive mode might be suicide, so don't attack and tech and macro up. If he leaves his base counter with your lings. It'll be a probe killing holiday. If the protoss is turtling up into 3 bases, this build is really good vs that because you can easily utilize baneling drops before they reach their near max army and force an all-in and either base race or just hold out in a big battle.
Forcefield doesn't stop baneling drops. Also, if they oval forcefield on the way over, just back off quickly and engage asap. Boom, wasted sentry energy. That crap aint cheap let me tell ya, especially considering all the gas that goes into upgrades, robo or templar play, not to mention stalkers aren't exactly a mineral only investment... and the fact that your third will be up long before the protosses, because guess what if he leaves his base he will die from a counter attack or a surround on his "shark mode" fake attack, and from that point he is simply skrewed so long as you know what to do to stay ahead and kill him.
I suggest you watch sheth play vs protoss... he has like an 80% win rate vs protoss in grandmasters, and he does it mainly just by macroing up with roaches attacking at the the right times with correct execution.
He masses mainly one unit for the majority of the game and crushes a lot of my protoss heroes. Also there are threads like this that give you tips how to exploit turtling protoss... I simply don't understand why people can't look outside the box from the perspective they think they know especially when there is so much information to be had between teamliquid, streams, tournaments etc.
How can you have fun playing the game if you go into every game thinking "my race/this matchup is near impossible I can't win, this is so stupid". I get mad at myself when I lose because I realize "wow that was careless, can't believe I messed that up" or "uggggh why did I do that " or maybe I played as good as I could have and don't immediately realize what I did wrong, look at the replay and start to analyze what I could have done differently, and come to these forums for ideas or watch streams of proven pros and see how they handle things.
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yeah thanks for the the "gaz" correction. If you want why i make this mistake relentlessly, it's because "gas" is spelled "gaz" in french.
About the difficulty in the Zerg vs Protoss matchup, i think it's not unwinnable for the zerg, even when the protoss get a max army (But only with my comp). BUT i think i need far more skill/mechanics/apm to beat an opponent of the SAME level. It's pretty sad but i don't complain, because with a little bit of reflexion, we can figure out build like this making the match up easier.
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New replay available !
ZvPStargateopening
Pretty good replay who shows how flexible this heavy larva build is.
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For other Protoss players reading this: I use 10gate tech openings exclusively in PvZ and I scout after I place the gate. Against 9 pools, I get to their base as the pool is done (confirmed in a replay), and instead of placing my cyber core or gas, I cut the next mineral dump in my BO and get a cb zealot. I place a pylon (because the zeal puts me at 17/18), get a probe, then another cb zeal when the pylon is done. This has kept me safe from 9pools in Masters.
Advice: Don't transition to phoenixes, the window is different for that against a 9pool that you had to defend and you don't actually have that much time to use phoenixes before they are driven out.
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I'm having trouble against CBoosted fast +1. If you don't blow them up with bling fast you are SO dead. Those guys are basically gods against zerglings T_T
In general though, the CB fast +3 rips the zergligns very hard. If a protoss is consistent with upgrades, you are always 1 behind and zergling always get 2 shotted easity T_T
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Well with +1 attack you should be able to hold until +1 armor finishes. Be sure to start +1 attack with the 100 next gaz after speed.
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So aXa, if I understand correctly, the first 100 gas goes to ling speeds, 2nd 100 gas to +1 melee attack, next 50 to baneling nest and only then upgrade to lair? Thx.
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Yes you are 100% correct. Note that the baneling nest is a "remote" building. You quite don't know when you are gonna use it, but you have to be prepare so getting it early is important.
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The ZvPfastair is now really available. Didn't noticed it was a broken link.
[url blocked]
And against a fast expand/ high templar tech
[url blocked]
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What would you guys reccomend instead of a 9pool to get an early expand, map control and a composition like this?
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awesome strat, 3-0 with it so far.
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How would a protoss go against this 9 pool and vs the late-game?
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Against 9 pool, just build a zealot before your core and chronoboost it, and be sure to be walled off.
Against the late game compo, i sincerely didn't find a correct answer as protoss. My friend FuryOfHell and myself are currently trying to find a good unit compo who don't get smashed as protoss.
But here are some element who are crucial: -Constrict space with building and canons -You must upgrade faster than usual and go 3 3 in order to compensate the insane rate of zerg upgrade -High templar definitely better than colossi, even if they just feedback the infestor.
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I know I don't have a replay quite yet, but based on my experiences with similar builds in bw...
Zerg opens 9pool with quick lings to gain map ctrl while econ-ing back home
Toss holds with a wall/zealot
At this moment, Zerg has momentum, but toss has better econ & more units What if toss tries to crush that momentum by pushing out immediately by using chrono on his 1st gate, and attack with 2zealots+1stalker or 1zealot+2stalker?
Basically what I'm trying to say is due to the way chronoboost & warpgates work, you just can't get a simcity in time with buildings/spines, forcing you to make queens/lings/possibly banes
theres no way you'll have speed in time, and if you crush the push, it means in the time that you had to econ, you made lings - while warpgate tech is close to free, so toss's warpgate tech will be out on time, except your econ will be delayed
Any suggestions? Quick note - overpool lingspeed runby / 9poolspeed in BW ZvP didn't put you much behind 12hatch at all - perhaps it's different in sc2 due to mineral patch : worker ratio efficiencies though Question - I read the comments on previous pages, but don't you guys still think early game map ctrl is worth the economic hit... even if you do 0 damage? At the very least, it should force the protoss to play a little reactively...unless he 1 base all-ins
Ive tried this build on ladder a few times, and I want to thank you for posting this build order Im sure it's gotten some flame for being an "aggressive opening" -as the Koreans would call it but I definitely prefer it over 15hatch as of now
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Thank you for this well written and informative guide, I will certainly give this some practice. Gonna be a tough one since I'm bad.
I just know I'm gonna have to deal with loads of early air pressure and most of the time I'm not able to hold this of even though I see the rays/phoenix incoming and I produce extra queens and spore crawlers, Protoss just seems to snipe my spores and queens before I can get them to be effective.
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On April 15 2011 04:33 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:05 Skrag wrote:On April 14 2011 17:34 AndAgain wrote:On April 14 2011 02:08 tehemperorer wrote: I think a lot of P and T players are not able to distinguish the differences between a 6 pool and a 9 pool/10 pool, so that something like this makes them believe, erroneously, that they are ahead or behind or whatever. Since it isn't that common, when I see a completed pool but no lings, it is hard to judge at what point in the game I am at as a Protoss player, and I could play the next 5 minutes thinking I'm ahead when I'm really not. I think this is totally true, which is what makes this even tougher to deal with. My immediate reaction is to put a forge even though i might be able to get away with a standard cyber- zealot opening (which isn't always true.) So I guess you gotta count the drones if you see a completed pool. You simply do not have to put a forge down to hold off early pools. Not even a 6pool. The sooner you practice holding a 6pool using your standard opening, the sooner you can stop worrying about silly shit like doing the wrong thing against early pools. Against a 6 pool, dropping a forge is *okay*. It's not necessary, but you will win unless you screw up extremely badly. Against any other early pool 7+, dropping the forge can give the zerg the leg up that he needs to pull ahead economically if he decides to do so, and if you're not very good at keeping tabs on what he's doing after the first 6 lings, you can very easily lose the game. Oh really? Some guy recently started a thread saying how he regularly beats top 200 players by doing nothing but 6 pools, and has a really high success rate against protoss. Making a forge, he says, is the only possible way to stop it.
He is wrong. I have done EXTENSIVE testing on this, against players significantly more skilled than me, and was able to hold off a 6pool with an extremely high success rate (over 80%, and *every single loss* was due to simple but fatal mistakes on my part that a better player simply shouldn't have made) on Steppes of War without making any modifications at all to my standard 13gate build before the lings reached my front. I did send out a scouting probe, and Steppes was used because of its very short rush distance, but I did not allow any modifications to my build until the lings got there, to simulate a failed scout on a 4 player map.
And after seeing a ridiculously good, safe, and stable response by KiwiKaki to a 6pool in the very thread you're talking about, I'm confident I could defeat a 6pool something close to 100% of the time, with extremely low risk, and in fact used that defense in my very first ladder game of this season.
The fact that he's beating master-level players consistently says exactly one thing: protoss players in general have not taken the time to figure out how to appropriately respond, which is exactly what I've been saying all along.
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aXa... I played 9pool as you explained with a limited success. But I can notice that the early pressure is a very good thing! I'm sure, I'm not mastering the BO but there is something very interesting in it which is to take the initiative (First Strike). Most of my ZvP are crap because I can't take the initiative before the Toss Push. The 9pool play can give me the opportunity to do so and against confident Protoss Pusher that works well! I disturb their BO and I'm not reacting to their build anymore... and they must react to mine. I think this is a good point. I had some good games doing it last week end.
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aXa, is it possible for you to zip/rar the replay and make it into a replay pack? sc2rep.com doesn't work for me?
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I did find a weakness to my build playing against a friend of mine.
A 3 gate into expand +1 forge push is very very scary against my build (without 9 pool) But i figured out a correct answer, which is to get a very fast macro hatch. I think this is better in general.
So there's the replay: [url blocked]
And another replay for fun [url blocked]
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I played a style like this last nite, but instead of going early gas I mixed it with the spanishiwa style, focus'ing down the Cyber core. He scouted late and dropped a pylon or 2 to block his main, and didn't drop the forge so I attacked the Cyber Core. This delays their tech SO much and allows you to macro up the Spanishiwa style with queens and crawlers.
Just thought it was a cool variation :D
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Hi there, as you know with the incoming zealot build time change 9 pool into ling pressure will not be longer an available strategy. Blizzard seems determined to make zerg a passive race, should i say a victim one. Anyway, here is a bunch of replay i played yesterday, i think they are quite good.
[url blocked] [url blocked] [url blocked] [url blocked] [url blocked]
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On April 27 2011 20:32 aXa wrote: Hi there, as you know with the incoming zealot build time change 9 pool into ling pressure will not be longer an available strategy. Blizzard seems determined to make zerg a passive race, should i say a victim one. Anyway, here is a bunch of replay i played yesterday, i think they are quite good.
[url blocked] [url blocked] [url blocked] [url blocked] [url blocked] T.T then what will happen to us zergs? I was having so much win with this build T.T will you make new aggressive builds? 6 pool all the way?? so with this 9 pool, you are expecting toss to make a mistake by making forge and a cannon?
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Yes, i pretty much forced mistake and it works very well at master level. I will just play standard as for the opening (14/14) and follow the same unit composition. I modified my BO a little, getting drop faster and delaying infestor. I just crush so much faces on the ladder with this strat ^^
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very detailed guide... very well put together. I like the amount of work u put into it and explaining it
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However I imagine this build will be nerfed in the upcoming patch. The zealot will come 5 seconds before they usually would, so that breaks the timing, and the protoss's aggressive response might be fatal.
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As a toss. Against this build if you block the choke and send your zealot out you can kill enough zerglings so it doesnt do enough damage. Also if you make a forge and cannon, expanding off of that seems to work as well.
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So... with the latest PTR changes, i think this wonderful strategy remains valuable.
Stalker train time decreased from 42 to 37. Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33. *These changes were revoked.
Btw thanks aXa for the really greate guide, it helped me a lot lately with my ZvP. Keep it up!!
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Hi,
I've been trying your build and it works kinda well!
But what I fear the most when i do it, even more if my 6 glings do not make enough damage, is the six gate push, or fake expand into 4 gate push , or some kind of +1 attack push with mass stalker and sentries like you said before.
Most of the time when the Protoss player hits , I have only zergling/baneling (maybe with +1 attack or +1/+1) and about 2 or 3 spines, but it is not enough since they forcefield like crazy.
I've been wondering: do i have to rush for overlord speed+ transport as soon as i have the lair? Because it is the best thing i found to counter such pushes ( I mean dropping banelings on his army ). I haven't seen all of your replays but i do not remember that you were getting it that soon. Maybe do I just have to focus more on spine crawlers and save my gaz?
Like someone said before, opening with this sort of 9 pool and going for mass queens/spine crawlers and droning like crazy , like Spanishiwa does, could be a good thing against protoss!
And excuse me if i made mistakes, i'm french :D
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I 9pool into hard economy almost-spanishiwa style building no lings except the first 6 till 40 supply, and it totally throws P off (at least at gold level). Doing the harrass and macroing up takes a lot of practice, but this really helps you out in the long run because you learn skills you will need eventually at higher levels of play.
my ZvP has increased dramatically with this.
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Against any +1 attack delayed timing push, you just need a fairly early macro hatch. I posted a replay called +1attack or something like that, who demonstrate how to handle this.
About drop, i get it just after +2 +2 upgrade and baneling speed.
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I feel its just easier to go roaches vs any +1 attack. You can have burrow up in time for a 6 gate allin and be aggressive with roaches until you see them drop a robo.
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Sometimes i feel really sad when i read pointless comment like this. Why are you talking about roaches, when the whole thread is about not doing roaches? I will answer anyway: Roaches can be good in certain occasion, but really it dies to any immortal/colossi play. 6 gate all is not a real threat to zergling baneling, which is a very effective composition in late game. So why bother with roaches?
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two gate zealots will destroy this build
User was temp banned from Strategy Forum for this post.
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On May 15 2011 02:53 Let it Raine wrote: two gate zealots will destroy this build
the fuck? What kind of post is that? This guy writes up a really detailed strategy that is actually pretty awesome, and then you go and say "two gate zealots will destroy this build" without any supporting arguments whatsoever.
Anyways, OP, what do you think about the new infestor changes? FG now does more damage, but it doesn't lock down the army as long. Do you find that to be better for you or worse?
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Hey Xanbatou, you're one patch late
The new fungal is awesome and give infestor some use. The fact that they decreased their speed in the recent patch is kind of a buff i think, because it's kinda prevent them to run into opponent army and die after casting fungal.
About 2 gate: No, it will not destroy this build. You just need to make 1 spinecrawler and save your ling. On 2 P map or close po map, you will see your opponent 2 gating after scouting 9 pool. So you are just free to not make 6 ling but 3 drone and be just fine with 2 queen and 1 spinecrawler.
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this a great thread, and I'm a protoss!
Would you please use a service other than megaupload? Its blocked here and I cannot access it.
edit: so what gives you trouble with this strategy? how can the toss get and press an advantage?
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lol neato... i've seen some of your replays before for some reason lol
this guide is the best... lol in your replays i've seen previously, i had thought you did a ten pool with 6 zerglings...so it's a 9 pool awesome stuff man
i'll check the replays in closer detail later (i fast fwded at x8 for most)
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I like the core idea in this post, but there is a superior way of executing it.
What is the point of doing 9 pool as opposed to 10 pool? There doesn't seem to be an important timing window that makes the earlier zerglings worth it.
Besides, I have found a way to eek out 1/2 larva out of the regular 10 pool with an extractor trick. A 10 pool ET (built at 1:12) would yield 2 more drones at the cost of delaying 6 zerglings by ~8 seconds. Worth it? - i think not!
10 Pool ET Build: 10 pool, drone, OV, Extractor trick-drone, drone; 6 zerglings (3rd larva spawns about 1 second after SP finishes); Queen.
At this point you can do exactly what aXa suggests, except you will be ahead by 2 drones. Personally, I prefer building a hatchery at 18/18 (before OV) and then power drones while the 6 zerglings deny all scouting and keep protoss to 1 base.
I have done thorough economic testing of the 10 pool ET build (See replays in the link). Just a taste: 10 pool ET is (only) 100 minerals behind 14 pool at 5:00, but gets 3 larva for it.
aXa, please explain what crucial advantage the 9 pool gives you when compared to 10 pool. Additionally, I would like to invite you to try out the 10 pool ET build - i think it would fit your play-style rather well.
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aXa, please explain what crucial advantage the 9 pool gives you when compared to 10 pool. If i am not totally mistaken he mentions that the seconds you shave off gets you to their ramp before first zealot is out assuming they do a 12 gate.
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Right, 9 pool allow you to go inside his base, or force a building wall, because the zealot is not in time. A 10 pool is just a waste because there is no way your zergling can come in.
I just played against a 2 gate vs my 9 pool, and i managed to win quite easily btw. Are your guys interested by the replay?
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Hey aXa I have a question about this. A lot of protosses seem to be going templar against me lately, and this creates a huge problem vs ling/bling/infestor. Psi storm decimate my army and make the toss ball extremely cost efficient no matter what position i engage in since storm has such a high dps esp vs this composition. I was wondering how you deal with high templar/psi storm? I feel like even if i have the econ advantage, i simply cant kill enough of the toss ball during the engagement so that my reinforcement lings can have any significant impact. Btw thanks for the great guide! It's really helped me a lot.
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It is mainly a micro matter. Psi storm shouldnt be an huge deal, as only perfect place storm will be able to really hurt your zergling force. Here are all the tips i know to deal with storm:
-Bane drop. Losing bane to a storm can really be messy, drop solve the issue (BTW, templar are kinda slow and have the sad tendency to pack, so you can aim them with bane drop)
-Attacking from different side. I try to keep my army separate i 2 or 3 group and attack from front, behind an sides
-Avoiding fight, force the use of psi storm. The protoss will short be out of energy, and can't quite replenish their army with HT since KA has been removed. Even if your first wave of zergling die, you should overcome protoss army with the huge influx of zergling, remember that zergling are expandable (keeping high larvae production is key)
-NP a templar and feedback the others. For PGM only :D
-If you realize that you can't be a certain opponent because he uses HT too well, just switch to roaches (be sure there is no colossi any more) With burrow and burrow movement, you'll be fine.
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Ah alright, I was thinking about tech switching to roaches late-game if it became too much of a problem. But your tips are great and I'll be sure to try them out next time. Thanks for your help!
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aXa, I have been trying your build a lot as of late, and unfortunately, I don't think it's for me. I just do not have the skill to use this composition effectively. I've lost a lot of games to force fields and death balls that I did not engage properly and did not micro well against.
Instead, I do your opening followed by a transition into roaches once my natural is being saturated. Then I get infestors, and then once I get close to max, I get banelings. I feel like this works better for me because it's much less fragile.
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Going roach bling is quite good, easier to perform which is not to despite, but less powerful as a setback.
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just read the OP
I don't like how he speaks like the 9pool will always do some nice damage. It's simply not true, I mean even his own replays he says 'very little' or 'no' damage in a couple of the games.
12gate->chrono zealot->core the zealot pops out just in time on most maps, map & spawn dependent. If he makes 13 gate the lings will get in if the wall isn't sealed. However as one poster suggested, an excellent response is to build a pylon to stall for the zealot, bring 3-5 probes to meet the zealot as it spawns, cancel the pylon, move out to chase away the pesky zerglings. The swarm of probes prevents easy runby the moment you cancel pylon, and you can leave 1 probe on 'hold' in the wall gap to block runby after that. It takes a few seconds for 1 ling to kill that probe, plenty of time for your zealot + probes to eliminate the threat.
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can you mention how you have faired against archons with this build? i am only a diamond player and when i see zergling banelings i have tried going for zealot archons on 2 bases and then trying to get collosi off of 3 base or voidrays depending on the map. and then possibly slowly adding stalkers instead of zealots as they tend to absorb banelings better and with good blink micro they can help stop bane ling drops quite effectively and since you already have high templar to deal with the infestors, archons also do really well against ultras and zerglings but you are a much higher player than me and so just wanted your oppinion. for me dealing with a roach tech switch is the harest to deal with (hence voids for the roaches and Templar and storm to deal with infestors and hydras.
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When i see DT or Archon, i immediatly drop a hydra den and start to produce them. I use it to snipe archon, and then go back for my regular army compo. Later in the game, i use NP mainly.
Archon are definitely better than colossi against this strat that's why i have to switch hydra a bit.
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On May 21 2011 08:33 aXa wrote: When i see DT or Archon, i immediatly drop a hydra den and start to produce them. I use it to snipe archon, and then go back for my regular army compo. Later in the game, i use NP mainly.
Archon are definitely better than colossi against this strat that's why i have to switch hydra a bit.
Sounds reasonable
Protoss players - bank 600-900 gas, make 2-3 archons as soon as archives completes, and attaaaaaaaaaaaaacccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkk! Don't allow him time to respond!
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aXa, you're my savior.
ZvP was my worst matchup before this, now it's arguably my best.
<3
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Thanks, it's very gratifying to read comment like this
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On May 19 2011 07:00 aXa wrote: Right, 9 pool allow you to go inside his base, or force a building wall, because the zealot is not in time. A 10 pool is just a waste because there is no way your zergling can come in.
A 10 pool is just as likely to 'force' protoss to build a wall. (Or do you really expect the protoss to differentiate between a 9 pool and a 10 pool, which are 6 seconds apart?!) Also, if the opponent plays "standard," zerglings can get in (but won't be able to finish the pylon before zealot is done). Just look at your own replays and imagine that your zerglings run up enemy ramp 6 seconds later and you have 2 extra drones mining - because that is what 10 pool ET will do. In 6 seconds i highly doubt that you'll be able to make enough damage to be worth 2 drones. Besides, in some of your replays you were not able to do much damage anyway.
I've looked at your 9 pool ZvZ thread as well, and again saw no justification for going 9 pool as opposed to 10 pool.
Then i found this:
On May 18 2011 02:14 aXa wrote: I wanted to say: Against protoss, the main point is not 9 pool, nor infestor, nor baneling. It is upgraded zergling.
That's really what I'm getting out of these 2 threads: an effective follow-up after early 6 zerglings. In this sense it is extremely useful to me. However, I prefer having 2 extra drones to speeding up the progression by ~6 seconds.
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I'll explain slowly once again: 6 second later, in ZvZ in ZvP, is too late. 99% of the time, your 10 pool will be useless. Zealot will spawn in time with a standard build, (so he doesn't need to wall off or to change anything in his build) And zergling as well in ZvZ. There is no half-measure, or you go 9 pool and have a decent chance to make damage, or you go standard opening because you'll have more drone than 10 pool anyway. The economical version of 9 pool is not 10 pool, but to get only 2 zergling and do an extractor trick to pull out an extra drone.
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I'm seeing this opening alot, and it is really killing me on anything later than a 12 gate - zealot. Any suggestions from zerg or protoss? Do I have to abandon 13/14 gates?
Edit to add: I mean as a standard opener, should I always delay my probe boost so I can get the 12 gate? Or are 13/14 gates safe and I just haven't been able to play it right?
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On May 21 2011 08:33 aXa wrote: When i see DT or Archon, i immediatly drop a hydra den and start to produce them. I use it to snipe archon, and then go back for my regular army compo. Later in the game, i use NP mainly.
Archon are definitely better than colossi against this strat that's why i have to switch hydra a bit.
In my matches I've found transitioning to broods (after hydras) is much better than ultras if toss builds archons, since FF just limits protoss due to the range of the broods, then if toss blinks out to kill the broods, you easily take out his stalkers with your hydra ling.
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Really nice, I'll try it later
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Friendo, just play completely standard with your opening, just wall off with a pylon, chronoboost a zealot, cancel the pylon when your zealot pops out and wall off.
About broodlord, when you see archon you have to forget about ultra indeed. Btw, i saw on judgehype that archon is supposed to be "weak" against ultra. Is this some kind of joke? An ultra barely can kill an archon..
http://starcraft2.judgehype.com/index.php?page=db_forces_faiblesses&w=protoss&l=fr
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I looked around the thread but didn't see an explanation about when you're at 19/18. If the extractor isn't canceled, how do you ever get to 19/18?
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you don't cancel the extractor, so it's pretty much 18/18. (to be precise: 17/18-->16/18 -->18/18)
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I am curious what you would do against a 2 gate opening with this 9 pool. I currently use the MC-style 2 gate 6 pool defense for any pool that comes before ~13 even if I already took my gas. I find that I can hold any number of zerglings with the build because I can fight the lings so cost effectively on the ramp.
I find the strength of the build is that I can leave one zealot on the ramp to hold against lings while still pressuring the zerg with 2 gate zealots which forces him to make lings and not capitalize on the supposed map control that he has. I follow this up with an expand all while probe pumping the whole time.
Basically, what do you do if the opponent does not build the forge and instead goes 2 gate?
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Against 2 gate, i first save my 6 initial zergling. I make 1 spine crawler at my ramp and use my queens to push creep into the natural. From then, i just slow push with spinecrawler, queens and few zergling until i can get my expand. I try to do runby with zergling when the speed kick in too. If the protoss really commits on the zealot count, i just add an additional spinecrawler. My expand is slightly delayed but so is his tech, so it's pretty much okay.
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Could I ask, How would you deal with a fast expand 7 Gate +1 wepon aggression.
Theres a few maps where you're first 3 gateways and cyber core can make a good sim city. (shakuras, tal darim etc.)
The build I like to go is pylon gateway botom ramp. Most of the times Zergling rushes are potential damage especially 9 pools. But usualy I have a probe in Hold Position before my zealot comes out. And with good reaction you can make a "Stall Wall" to block lings.
Regardless, let's move to the 10-12 Minute Mark. I built 46 Probes. I've got 7 gateways built. I mass up zealots sentries stalkers.
Usually This Army composition can deal very well with any zerg early game forces. And usualy you will get 1 observer to prevent burrows, and to get creep tumours.
I'm curious if you ever faced this type of protoss play?
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I checked 2 reps, and on both protoss used crappy force fields. They force fielded AFTER banelings were near army, and even then they didn't force field to separate all banelings, but rather to trap them near sentries. I think that most good results with this strategy, is from enemy playing in bad way, like wrong ff/attacking you in open space, etc. I'm using ling banelings as well, but i feel like you are behind after 9 pool. You still can win, if enemy uses ff in bad way, but good f will separate all banelings from his sentries. Also, 6 gate will be devastating because you dont have economy to produce enough units, and competent protoss won't make bad force fields. Of course, missing ff will win zerg a game, but it's luck based. Generally i think it's good strategy, but 9 pool sets you behind. Other than 9 pool, I'm using similiar strategy and with good economy i think it's possible to defend 6 gate with ling bane(i hope.
Not being rude or arrogant, but 2 big batles i have seen, were won by very bad force fields from protoss. And i know good protoss will use like 4-5 force fields to wall himself off, and each time you attack, and he ff, you lose part of your units. But nice post overall, i think ling bane drop infestor ultra is way to go in ZvP But not 9 pool
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The way i beat 7 gateway +1 attack is with a quick macro hatch and burrowed baneling.
About all the FF thing, you just need to back off when the FF are down, until sentry energy is low, then overun the protoss. Coming for different angle helps a lot too. Usually, when FF comes really scary you'll have drop, so it's pretty much fine
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Not a new unit composition, has been around since the beginning of patch 1.3. Guess aXa only gave it more exposure..
aXa's idea when using the 9 pool opener is simple: abuse the fact that protosses have it so much easier when they wall of using gate core. Easier meaning they don't have anything to worry about for a minute or 2 from the Zerg, where as us zergs have to scout ramp with lings, sac ovies, worry about stargaze openers or 4 gates or or more. Also, he recommends a 9 pool, not a 6 pool that would have no probability of transitioning, nor a 13 pool that might not disrupt the protoss due to the standard zvp metagame nowadays. The protosses out there suddenly realize from the 2nd minute onwards they have little experience handling such early aggression, and are caught with their pants down, fumble and panic and start trying new things to fend this off; put down forges pylons etc. Also, this is aided by the fact that zergs have very unique timing attacks due to the hatcheries being the only production building of Zerg, that you can go from only drones to having a decent army in a inject larvae explosion.
But that's just that, relying on your opponents to make mistakes in order for you to get ahead in the ladder is......... pitiable. Sure, have this 9 pool aggression opener to mix things up in a boX, otherwise you aren't going to improve much if your going to rely on this EVERY SINGLE GAME.
+1 to Skrag for valiantly trying to show the lost sheep in here that the opener is not economically ahead of a 14 g 14 pool. All that effort and aXa blindsides you, pretending not to read what you posted, or rather understood it (blaming his poor English, perhaps?)
Guys, I understand that as a bronze to plat level player, you would like to try new builds in order to advance yourself in the leagues, but the best bet at improving your game is to practice going standard in the ladder, and try fending off the cheeses that other people throw at you, coming out alive, and ahead, then savor the hard earned fruits of your early game labor, winning by just using a simple attack move at the right time. Do this, instead of trying to cheese other people. You fail the cheese, try transitioning and not get killed by your opponent, but then still lose later on and wonder what you did wrong, when your mistake is purely the decision to do a cheese.
Oh yeah and day9 dailies help a ton. Coming from a bronze to diamond Zerg.
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I dunno, I lost 1 game to banelings zerglings with a 7 gate once. But I was the one who made mistakes. I got over confident and Enganged in the open Natural. Assuming I could make a full circle of FFs around me. I let some Lings in and That twindled me down.
But in certain maps where you can easily engange in a 3 building area. I think 7 gate can defeat this.
The thing is too, usualy zealots will be behind your FFs trying to attack.
But I do see your point of view that lings banes CAN defeat FFs if played right. But likewise FFs can defeat lings banes.
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About the FF matter, i think it is important to remember that roaches are also very weak to FF anyway.
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On May 24 2011 04:12 cmpcmp wrote: I am curious what you would do against a 2 gate opening with this 9 pool. I currently use the MC-style 2 gate 6 pool defense for any pool that comes before ~13 even if I already took my gas.
cmp - can you post some replays of this defense? I'd love to see it.
Axa - thanks for the tips, I'll try them out versus my zerg buddy.
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Okay guys, i just played this game with a clanmate, and i think they are good because they involve a lot of different unit compo/strat, and give an excellent overview what zerg can do against protoss.
He opened two gate twice, the first game i did a standard hold, the second i tried a gimmicky stuff ^^didn't work so well but managed to recover. In those replay, you'll see baneling drop on army, on mineral line, nydus drop, hydra switch against archon, neural parasite, etc etc.
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As a protoss player I can say that any early zergling pressure is usually rewarding as you get to scout (and often times deal economical damage, or more).
Nice post.
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One choke = dead zerg army and 200/200 protoss army
most maps have chokes near the expansions like shakuras so then they're just going to melt all your ultras and you just gg at that point
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That's pretty much why god invented baneling drop, surround and NP.
Anyway, it's true with any another comp.
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Hey guy's, last night morrow used a similar style in his match vs Grubby in NASL. It was a little bit weird but you should definitely check this games on nasl justin tv.
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How does teching straight to infestor deal with the Anypro style 2 base 7 gate +1+1 + obs warpgate all in. Surely, it would have the same problems that mutas do - it can't beat a timing attack.
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On June 01 2011 02:19 elitesniper420 wrote: One choke = dead zerg army and 200/200 protoss army
most maps have chokes near the expansions like shakuras so then they're just going to melt all your ultras and you just gg at that point
Why the hell are you near your expansion anyways? You're supposed to be out in the map (specifically the open) being all scary with your ultralisks and banelings.
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I'm also soo interested in those funky builds defending 6-7 gates, and burrow banelings are cool, but lets be honest, you cant use it at solid strategy that will work in any tournament(BOx), there are many ways to avoid burrowed banelings, and obs negates them 100%. As well as ling banelings is negated by 100% with force fields
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I love watching the meta-game shift, as people work out differant unit compositions, and differant ways to use them! Great stuff, keep the ideas flowing everyone!
Anyone run into much archon play with this and the recent patch? I saw a few posts talkign about dts-> archons, but what about the HT-->Archon. Just curious if this composition still as good when archons are mixed in with the deathball doing their splash
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I really really like this build so far.. but I seem to be at a build order loss right now
I'm fine against any 2base build or 1base stargate/4gate, buuuuut
After scouting my 9pool, a toss I know will often go 3gate robo after my lings hit their front He'll rush for 2 colossus as fast as possible, then push out and micro colossus until victory - the colossus push comes pretty much right as my lair completes, assuming I go 21gas, 100-speed 100-+1attack 100 lair
If I try a baneling bust, his 3gateways have enough time to stall untill his colossus come out, in which he will just seal the wall, and hit/run micro my lings till death, while transitioning into a 4gate
It seems that lings alone cannot combat any sort of army that has 1-2 colossus, for if I try to surround the colossus, he can step over my lings, and get a really nice splash hit
I can post replays soon, but do you have any suggestions against this type of play?
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just a suggestion that I have added to this bulid. to prevent maximum damage from force fields, load up your army into overlords and drop it on top of his army this is my go to build ATM, minus the 9 pool, except for the rare occasion
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I bookmarked this build a while ago but never got around to using it. I just did today and I have to say that I love it. Surprisingly, my opponent reacted EXACTLY like you described with a forge and cannon wall off.
However, I do prefer roaches in ZvP so I just used a different follow up to get a 2nd hatch then work towards +1 roaches and crushed his late 4 gate push. Regardless, the opening scared him onto one base.
Thanks for the guide, it is very useful.
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I would just like to warn people against doing this build on antiga shipyards. Here are the ramp-to-ramp distances for the new maps (and why you shouldn't do it on AS):
Antiga Shipyard 43s (close) 54s (cross)
Nerazim Crypt 30s (close) 38s (cross)
Abyssal Caverns 33s (horizontal) 34s (vertical) 45s (cross)
For comparison, here are some older maps:
Shattered Temple 24s (close) 34s (close air) 38s (cross)
Tal'darim Altar LE 43s (close) 52s (cross)
Xel'Naga Caverns 41s Scrap Station 46s
I didn't include searing crater because that map is terrible and zergs should have it veto'd. Anyway, as you can see, AS has pretty long rush distances. I played a game the other day (which prompted me to look at rush distances for the new maps) where he was able to FE and get a cannon up and I was only able to get it down to like a quarter life with my zerglings. He spawned cross position. I am confident that the unusually long rush distance is what allowed him to emerge unscathed from my opening.
Thanks to Butter's post for the ramp-to-ramp information.
EDIT: Also, abyssal caverns has a relatively long rush distance in cross positions too, so it might be a gamble to try it on that map.
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