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Hi guys, me again, this will be my third guide thus completing the zerg matchups. I originally was only going to cover my ZvZ, but thanks to everyone's encouraging feedback here we are completing the set.
My ZvZ guide is located: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583)
My ZvP guide is located: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210354
My ZvP later lair guide : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259629
Would like to put here thanks to TrueRedemption for fixing my terrible grammar and making everything easier to read!
I am currently in the grandmaster league with 256 points (823 points masters before grandmaster). I will be going over my unit compositions and showcasing my overall game plan in as much detail as I can, complete with replays. If you have any questions or are interested in additional topics / replays just let me know .
Please note that I do not use infestors until late game, I personally prefer other approaches, and will not be covering the infestor mid-game style in this guide.
My overall gameplan is/ling/bane/muta (about 12-15 mutas normally with +1 attack) with a tactical focus on setting up flanks. As If all goes well and I have enough income I am for a ling/bane/infestor/ultra and broodlords late game.
--------Build--------
9 - overlord 9 - drone scout (I do this to see if he's getting gas or 2 rax) 15 - hatchery 14- spawning pool (I do this at 16 if I do not see a 2 rax or see a gas / cc first) 17-18- overlord (depending on if you pool on 16 or not) 18-19 - gas . 22-24- overlord (your preference)
24-27 (your preference)- Roach warren. as soon as spawning pool finishes make 2 queens.
I make 6 roaches, 2 for defense, 4 for pressure. The point of these 4 roaches is not to do damage or kill your opponent. The point is to try to reveal his tech (lots of hellions, tank, banshee). At the minimum you will probably force a bunker, but dont' sacrifice these 4 roaches unless you are guaranteed to be killing scv's and stuff, dont' let them die to a ton of marines, and if there is a tank pull back. I get ling speed after I make the initial 6 roaches unless I need more roaches for some all in or something.
32-34 - Sacrifice an overlord in your opponents base in attempt to scout his tech. If you see tech lab starport you know to prepare for banshee, if you see a CC already done then you can drone super hard. If you can't find anything you need to keep lings near the front of his base to determine expansion timing. If they stay on 1 base to long expect banshee/blue flame hellions. You should be droning pretty hard unless you think he's doing some sort of early aggression or some sort of all in.
I go lair after I take a third (unless I see banshee's or something). So I take a third, take my gases, go lair, drop a baneling nest. thats my order after the roaches while droning and what not.
Put your baneling nest up with your next 100 minerals/50 gas.
When you reach lair quickly start baneling speed.. If he fast expands you can take a third pretty quickly and be able to hold any sort of marine/tank push with a well setup flank. Make a spire with your next 200/200 minerals/gas.
Start getting upgrades when you get your third with your gases mining (so 6 gas). Do melee/carapace.
--------Opening build 2--------
9 - overlord 9 - drone scout (I do this to see if he's getting gas or 2 rax) 15 - hatchery 14- spawning pool (I do this at 16 if I do not see a 2 rax or see a gas / cc first) 17-18- overlord (depending on if you pool on 16 or not) Spawning pool finishes - 2 queens Spine crawler 22-24- overlord (your preference) 3rd queen 5 minutes - gas 5:30-6 minutes- Roach warren. 6:15-6:30 - 2nd + third gas ling speed with 100 gas start lair get 4'th gas baneling nest with first 50 gas after starting lair This version of the opener is getting gas later, roach warren later. The times I put are about roughly where I put my gas down and roach warren down most of the time. You can do a timing I do where as soon as you start the third queen and its x point done (your decision no right/wrong really) you start your gas.
Now I go roaches but I do not ever commit to them unless he is going mech. By commit I mean I don't get speed upgrade, and I only make about 6 just to get map control from the terran so I can take my third sooner.
32-34 - Sacrifice an overlord in your opponents base in attempt to scout his tech. If you see tech lab starport you know to prepare for banshee, if you see a CC already done then you can drone super hard. If you can't find anything you need to keep lings near the front of his base to determine expansion timing. If they stay on 1 base to long expect banshee/blue flame hellions. You should be droning pretty hard unless you think he's doing some sort of early aggression or some sort of all in.
When you reach lair quickly start baneling speed.. If he fast expands you can take a third pretty quickly and be able to hold any sort of marine/tank push with a well setup flank. Make a spire with your next 200/200 minerals/gas.
Start getting upgrades when you get your third with your gases mining (so 6 gas). Do melee/carapace.
Thats the basics, next I'll describe why I do this build, and some of the details I've picked up along the way.
The 9 drone scout is important to see if he's getting a refinery or 2 rax, as this will heavily play into what to do as soon as my hatch + spawning pool finish. A 15 hatch is safe vs 2 rax if you know its coming and defend properly.
If the drone scouts a refinery, CC first, or 1 rax CC, I delay my pool in favor of squeezing out 2 more drones, and you can get roaches out in time for hellions or any marine/hellion push.
The biggest "threat" that I see is proxy 2 rax and I'm going to be blunt I have only faced proxy 2 rax once. I was able to hold, but he wasn't very good so take that for what its worth.
I get my gas at about 5 minutes because I like the extra minerals, it really helps when drone pumping and this build still gets roaches out in time for any marine push etc. Honestly in my opinion you do not desperately need speedlings so early in this match-up.
I typically go hive tech either right before or just as I start my 2/2 upgrades (melee/carapace). This is again simply a timing I like, feel free to do something different if you wish
Unit compositions vs Terran bio + Show Spoiler + So I like to start off with Roach/speedling/baneling. I delay muta's but my overall unit composition will be muta/ling/roach/baneling. The early game unit composition is Roach/ling (adding in banes once baneling nest finishes and the terran moves out, no reason to make them earlier). I like this unit composition because you can hold any hellion/marine push. Hellion/marauder pushes can be held with pure speedling/roach, especially if you see it coming, making this an overall strong composition early so you don't die. You can also also crush the marine/tank push that hits right before your spire finishes if you flank from 2 sides. Practice using multiple army hotkeys and you will crush it. It feels good . As I hit Lair and get baneling speed, so rely on that unit mix for a little while. So your early game is roach/ling/bane, and your mid game is Muta/ling/bane/ on to the late game. Now for late game I start off with broodlords. When I can I try to add in 2-3 infestors as support for the broodlords. Now if you've been on top of your carapace/melee upgrades all game long here is where you get to cash in, you've been building towards this transition. Its great to do a complete tech switch to ultra's if your broodlords die or you are pushed back. My late game unit composition is Broodlord/Ling/Bane/infestor. If I can't kill him with this composition I will add inUltra's as well. So if the game goes crazy late it will be ultra/ling/bane/infestors/broodlords.
Defending 2 rax + Show Spoiler + Ok so once you've scouted a 2 rax coming you should make all your larva into lings and put down your spine crawler. If you don't want to make a spine crawler you can still hold, but if you mess up a little bit with your ling micro it will cost you the game. The spine crawler also helps by insuring you don't have to overproduce lings.
You should be able to afford 1 queen maybe 2 when spawning pool finishes, but make sure to prioritize the lings, they are a must to stop the bunker getting up (and pull drones if needed!).
Don't engage his marines unless you know your lings will kill them. After you hold it off, drone as normal while using your lings to scout when the Terran takes an expo or attempts something funky (like 4 rax all in). I still make a roach warren and get my gas at about the usual 18-19. After this proceed as standard.
Engaging the terran army + Show Spoiler + I highly recommend using separate hot keys and separating your units into good spots so that you can hit him from multiple angles, even in the early game.
So for example lets say he does a marine/tank push that I believe hits at around 9 minutes, somewhere around there right before muta's. Your scouting lings should see it coming, and you should immediately put your units into a good flanking position, and when you get the time, attack from both sides. you will utterly crush his army unless you were still droning (which you shouldn't be, you scouted it coming) or supply blocking yourself.
Now lets go into the "midgame". Where you have your muta's/ling/bane/
Try not to let your muta's die as they are not only very useful for stopping drop play, they also pin your opponent by threatening to harass their main. Like early game, when you have time it is good to put your units into flanking positions. This works very well and I do think flanking is not used as much as it should be in zvt right now it is so effective. I can not stress how awesome it is compared to just attacking in 1 direction. So have your roach/ling/bane in flanking positions, and when he pushes and you engage make sure banelings from the flanks are going for the marines (its hilarious watching them run back to only run into the banelings from that side :D). Try to have your muta's kill the tanks, and have roaches engage marines/tank as well.
Late game with Broodlord/ling/bane/infestor (and leftover muta's to stop drops, try not to let these die they are very critical in stopping drop play from becoming super annoying!). My hotkeys are usually as follows: 1 hotkey for ling/bane, 2nd hotkey with broodlords, and I put infestors on a completely separate hotkey all together. If you can flank awesome, do it, fungal obviously helps a lot and just try not to let your broodlords die stupidly.
Late game Zerg vs Terran + Show Spoiler + So its late game zerg vs terran. You have broodlord/ling/bane/infestor but you just can't seem to kill him or you don't want to risk it. Make sure to get drop tech and try dropping a bunch of adrenal lings into his main, then as their army pulls back you attack. Drop his 4'th base with some ultra's and clean that up. They will be super distracted, allowing you to then attack the front with ultra/ling/bane/infestor with some broodlords.
Do everything you can to take out bases/production facilities but avoid attacking into planetary fortresses in the middle of the map if their being really lame :D.
With the replays I am going to be showcasing you well will see me dealing with drops and late game unit compositions.
Fighting Terran mech + Show Spoiler + Ok so dealing with mech. This can be very frustrating to deal with due to the nature of how strong mech can be. So if you know your opponent is going mech the unit composition I go is roach/ling/bane (with about 12 muta's) just like bio (but with less banelings, I use banelings for the blue flamed hellions!) I do get infestors as well and stop making muta's so that I can neural parasite them and flank with roach/ling/bane and the 12 or so muta's I have. Flanking and neural parasite are very crucial. You should have your army in 2 different control groups and have them in flanking positions so that you can get a full surround when you attack him.
If he is making ghosts (very unlikely or at least I rarely see ghosts in general when I go infestors vs mech). spread your infestors out so EMP doesn't take all their energy away. With flanking and nerual you should absolutely crush his attack and can then counter attack and win the game.
Vs mech is flanking is absolutely critical if you attempt to fight with a ground army. If you can get a full surround you will kill his army so try not to engage in a small choke, or with 1 control group. This will end up dying without killing much and result in much frustration!
Another way is to Try to go hive faster then usual and this time tech straight to broodlords. This is another thing you can do and its been very effective backed with roach/ling/muta support. You can also add in infestors with neural parasite if you have the chance, they also work wonders.
As of right now there I don't have recent replays against mech but I will try to find some and update them in the OP ASAP!
Dealing with Banshee play + Show Spoiler + Ok so you see he's going banshee. Lets assume its with cloak. Make sure you're making extra queens, and throw down some spore crawlers in good locations (so that if he cloaks your queens can still attack it). Put 1 in your mineral line, 1 by your spawning pool/roach warren, 2 at your natural. Go lair and with queens keep holding it off. Make a spire immediately and then play the game normally if possible. Try not to take to much damage obviously, but its important to remember to keep droning, he won't have a big ground army to attack yet so you should be fine . vs 2 port banshee, make more spores then usual, make queens as usual and just hold it at bay until muta's. If defended correctly you won't take enough damage and you should win, 2 port banshee is very all in and relies on doing a ton of damage or winning the game out right.
The nydus worm + Show Spoiler + The Nydus worm. In broodwar nydus networks were a must in every match up (except zvz ). I feel this has been underused and miss-used. Currently players either all in with it, or attempt something aggressive late game. Well I have been using this in a quite different way! I am using it defensively. Broodwar players should recognize how useful it was to be able to transport units over to a base to defend. This use of the nydus worm is especially notable in ZvT when bio balls are everywhere. While on smaller maps (eg. Xel'Naga) I don't think nyduses are as "needed" I do believe that on bigger maps (typhon, taldarim altar). But as bigger maps come out and more tournaments use these better bigger maps I expect to see the nydus worm being used more defensively. I have been incorporating it into my play. Right now I only have 1 good replay to show it off with as you well see me use it defensively and you will see it used when he tries drops or something of that sort. I plan on doing this more and uploading more replays to showcase the strategy.
Dealing with Hellions + Show Spoiler + With this build your roaches should come out in time for the hellions.
If for some reason you see hellions coming and you only have 1 spine crawler, your roach warren isn't done, then just move your drones to your main until you get some roaches out or move them to the spine crawler if he tries to get them.
You do this until you get roaches out.
A few things to do even after roaches are out. Watch and make sure his hellions don't try and be sneaky to kill drones or run up the ramp. To stop ramp run by's just put an evo chamber at the part by the ramp that hellions would go up and you can use your spine + 1 queen to wall that part off.
You can also just put your queen on the ramp, only taking her off when you do larva injects until you feel comfortable that he won't have anymore hellions.
Now when the game progresses to 3-4 bases you will want 3 spine crawlers at each of your bases. The reason for this is because hellions (especially blue flamed) kill drones stupidly fast and if you only have 1 spine crawler he'll get all your drones before that 1 spine kills it. If you have 3 normally you won't lose to many drones unless you clump them up.
I think that covers how to deal with hellions!
Replays: http://www.mediafire.com/?6upyb0jpsyit7of http://www.mediafire.com/?bbm6qnd6nq2suzq (replay showcasing nydus worms being used defensively) http://www.mediafire.com/?qxm3pa713cxh5pl (3 zvt's played on the korean server) http://www.mediafire.com/?rql1gz84797tcn8 (zvt vs mech)
There is a bo3 series between me and thisisjimmy for a tournament we played,
game 1 showcases how not to engage the terran army.
game 2 and 3 both showcase flanking very well. This is a lot of other games, some long zvt games and 1 with proxy cloaked banshee.
any requests/questions please feel free to post and I will answer to the best of my ability and if you are seeking certain zvt games with certain things happening I shall try to find one/play one to showcase it.
This should be my last guide I write for who knows how long as I did my goal of 1 for each race (zvz/zvt/zvp). Hope these guides help you all out!
I may add more to the guide if I find I've forgotten something, and I hope this helps out my fellow zerg players out there!
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Nice, quite a lot of grammar mistakes tough!
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really nice strategy, roaches seem to be a good addition to ling/bling/muta
as mech is becoming more popular i wonder if you would do the same strategy against
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@ blade do you pressure terran once you've defended a 4 hellion with blue flame? ( i believe this is the opening for mech)
I am not quite sure if I am going to put pressure or expand. At this point in time, terran has the map control with blue flames. should I wait for mutas then get third after that?
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On April 13 2011 10:29 BlackBlood wrote: @ blade do you pressure terran once you've defended a 4 hellion with blue flame? ( i believe this is the opening for mech)
I am not quite sure if I am going to put pressure or expand. At this point in time, terran has the map control with blue flames. should I wait for mutas then get third after that?
I wouldn't try pressuring because he'll make a tank right after he's sent out his hellions and take his expo. If you can get your drone to a third then take it then (he won't be pressuring anytime soon his ground army would be way too weak). Just scare them off with roaches, and drone for the most part and make sure to keep something blocking the ramp so he can't sneak by.
Also alot of terrans i play that open blue flame still go marine/tank after so I would scout with an overlord/overseer once you get lair and speed to make sure! If you know he's going mech you don't need many banelings (as you only want banelings for the hellions but not that many)
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Thanks for that. I switched from toss to zerg this season 2. And by far ZvT is my weakest match up. This will improve my games! thanks again and more power to you!
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Very nice guide. I'd like to make a few comments.
What's your opinion of gas steal if you see gas? I like to gas steal whenever I can because that means if they are going for cloaked banshees, they don't have enough gas for cloak. I think it's pretty solid when you can get it done.
And I definitely like roaches in addition to ling/bling/muta. They really make your standing army much stronger, but I think the biggest thing is that its easy to crush their army then remax on roach. Roaches are super strong on the counterattack against lower unit counts, and they are not nearly as larva intensive as lings so during a fight if you miss an inject or something in the heat, you are not punished as badly.
Against mech, roach+muta is all you need against non 3/3 thors, maybe some blings for scvs. If you smell mech, I immediately try to upgrade roach attack because they scale well and you NEED it against strong thors.
The beauty of roach/muta is that mutas are awesome at stealing the DPS away from thors; magic box your mutas and your roaches really stay alive for so long. It's ironic, but your magic boxed mutas become tanks for your roaches to really dish out damage.
Against 3/3 thors...well your stuff melts kind of too fast. By the time they have 3/3 thors you really need to have brood lords and roaches to fight him because 3/3 thors are crazy. But usually they try an initial push while on 2 base, which if you prepare for correctly with roach/muta, you can crush and just gg it right there. It's harder when they turtle hard and get 3 bases and just go for the 200/200 deathball. I think you need to discuss the need to absolutely take the whole map and tech hard to BLs and play it out with tech switches/harass.
Obviously if the guy has tanks he won't have as many thors so your magic boxed mutas and do some pwnage anyway.
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On April 13 2011 10:46 dave333 wrote: Very nice guide. I'd like to make a few comments.
What's your opinion of gas steal if you see gas? I like to gas steal whenever I can because that means if they are going for cloaked banshees, they don't have enough gas for cloak. I think it's pretty solid when you can get it done.
And I definitely like roaches in addition to ling/bling/muta. They really make your standing army much stronger, but I think the biggest thing is that its easy to crush their army then remax on roach. Roaches are super strong on the counterattack against lower unit counts, and they are not nearly as larva intensive as lings so during a fight if you miss an inject or something in the heat, you are not punished as badly.
Against mech, roach+muta is all you need against non 3/3 thors, maybe some blings for scvs. If you smell mech, I immediately try to upgrade roach attack because they scale well and you NEED it against strong thors.
The beauty of roach/muta is that mutas are awesome at stealing the DPS away from thors; magic box your mutas and your roaches really stay alive for so long. It's ironic, but your magic boxed mutas become tanks for your roaches to really dish out damage.
Against 3/3 thors...well your stuff melts kind of too fast. By the time they have 3/3 thors you really need to have brood lords and roaches to fight him because 3/3 thors are crazy. Neural parasite is real good too. But usually they try an initial push while on 2 base, which if you prepare for correctly with roach/muta, you can crush and just gg it right there because a strong roach/bling counterattack will kill them easy. It's harder when they turtle hard and get 3 bases and just go for the 200/200 deathball. I think you need to discuss the need to absolutely take the whole map and tech hard to BLs and play it out with tech switches/harass.
Obviously if the guy has tanks he won't have as many thors so your magic boxed mutas and do some pwnage anyway.
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On April 13 2011 10:46 dave333 wrote: Very nice guide. I'd like to make a few comments.
What's your opinion of gas steal if you see gas? I like to gas steal whenever I can because that means if they are going for cloaked banshees, they don't have enough gas for cloak. I think it's pretty solid when you can get it done.
And I definitely like roaches in addition to ling/bling/muta. They really make your standing army much stronger, but I think the biggest thing is that its easy to crush their army then remax on roach. Roaches are super strong on the counterattack against lower unit counts, and they are not nearly as larva intensive as lings so during a fight if you miss an inject or something in the heat, you are not punished as badly.
Against mech, roach+muta is all you need against non 3/3 thors, maybe some blings for scvs. If you smell mech, I immediately try to upgrade roach attack because they scale well and you NEED it against strong thors.
The beauty of roach/muta is that mutas are awesome at stealing the DPS away from thors; magic box your mutas and your roaches really stay alive for so long. It's ironic, but your magic boxed mutas become tanks for your roaches to really dish out damage.
Against 3/3 thors...well your stuff melts kind of too fast. By the time they have 3/3 thors you really need to have brood lords and roaches to fight him because 3/3 thors are crazy. But usually they try an initial push while on 2 base, which if you prepare for correctly with roach/muta, you can crush and just gg it right there. It's harder when they turtle hard and get 3 bases and just go for the 200/200 deathball. I think you need to discuss the need to absolutely take the whole map and tech hard to BLs and play it out with tech switches/harass.
Obviously if the guy has tanks he won't have as many thors so your magic boxed mutas and do some pwnage anyway.
Gas stealing is fine, I don't do it very much but I don't see it as a bad thing. I agree its nice to if you don't kill his army quiet (but almost or something) your reinforcing roaches well clean up the rest it is very nice .
I agree roach/muta is very strong vs mech its what I do, but I add lings due to gas starvation ^_^.
If he had 3/3 thors you should be hive and have broodlords and all that fun stuff because yeah 3/3 thors are insanely strong :D.
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Good stuff
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Could you include your infestation pit timing? Also, do you usually get the infestor energy upgrade to support your ultras? Do you go for two evos or three, usually? If two, I assume you prefer melée over ranged, yes?
Thanks for all the help
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I read that you like to open with mutalisks instead of infestors. How many mutalisks do you make?
Recently, I been having a lot of trouble with mass tank builds. Especially on maps like Typhoon peaks, I see terran go marine, 2 factory tanks. They slowly siege up to my nat with 16 tanks and I don't know what to do.
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On April 13 2011 17:01 T.O.P. wrote: I read that you like to open with mutalisks instead of infestors. How many mutalisks do you make?
Recently, I been having a lot of trouble with mass tank builds. Especially on maps like Typhoon peaks, I see terran go marine, 2 factory tanks. They slowly siege up to my nat with 16 tanks and I don't know what to do.
Typhon is a very iffy map and hard too engage tanks in general due to the small chokes. Your best bet is too definitely flank his army and hopefully can catch his marines. I'm honestly debating on maps like typhon/xelnaga to go infestor openings but then I feel like mass seige tanks would kill it anyway. I know I have beaten it when they move to the natural and hit from behind + front. Thats really the only way I have been able to do it.
For the muta's I make hmmm at minimum 12 but i make a decent amount to deny drops, harass, but not as many as like idra or anything ^^.
On April 13 2011 16:54 Lobotomist wrote: Could you include your infestation pit timing? Also, do you usually get the infestor energy upgrade to support your ultras? Do you go for two evos or three, usually? If two, I assume you prefer melée over ranged, yes?
Thanks for all the help
Infestor timing is right when I start 2/2 or thats when I start hive, inestors I try to add in when I get ultra's so about when hive finishes and I start adding in ultra's.
I have 2 evo's, melee/carapace are what I upgrade. And yes infestor energy i do upgrade too support my ultra's or broodlords or both if I have both out. I think 3 evo' and getting ranged attack is too much gas and I am almost always gas starved late game it seems ^_^.
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Hi ^^ I would suggest making a small introduction about the overall strategy ( or the big points ), I had to read quite a lot before I even got the gist of the overall strategy.
I like mutalisks in small numbers in certain situations, for example when the terran opened some sort of heavy banshee play. But having a large amount of mutalisks won't be good if the terran decides to go for a 2 base tank marine push if the terran is worth his weight. Seeing as the only thing you have to take out the tanks is mutalisks, and those get pretty dead if there are marines around.
So if I get mutalisks, I only get around 7 or 8 to scout around and harrass occasionally. I need pathogen-infestors to have decent range against marine tank pushes. Else my banelings will surely die.
The other reason I don't get lots of mutalisks is the fact that +3 melee banelings 1HKO scv's. If you have mutalisks constantly harrassing him, his bases will be ridden with turrets. A third or fourth with only one turret is a buffet for a baneling-filled overlord dropping acidic death over the workers. As a terran that isn't being mutalisk harrassed will probably not build many turrets, they will have a hell of a surprise.
Another thing that I like to do in ZvT in the lategame is going Ultralisk baneling versus the marauders. You have to focusfire the banelings with tanks if you want to take them out, and seeing as terrans aren't doing that ( or having a hard time clicking a small green ball between monsters the size of godzilla ) the banelings will roll through the marauders with deadly effectiveness. Its a LOT more mobile than broodlord-infestor combinations and easily rams through any sort of fortification.
On typhon peaks, baneling drops are an absolutely amazing addition if you're facing tank heavy compositions. The many cliffs and chokes don't allow for marines to have a good spread around the tanks making for a reasonably safe path towards bombing the tanks with banelings. That's the way I always bust out of tank contains on that map.
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On April 13 2011 17:56 Chaosvuistje wrote: Hi ^^ I would suggest making a small introduction about the overall strategy ( or the big points ), I had to read quite a lot before I even got the gist of the overall strategy.
I like mutalisks in small numbers in certain situations, for example when the terran opened some sort of heavy banshee play. But having a large amount of mutalisks won't be good if the terran decides to go for a 2 base tank marine push if the terran is worth his weight. Seeing as the only thing you have to take out the tanks is mutalisks, and those get pretty dead if there are marines around.
So if I get mutalisks, I only get around 7 or 8 to scout around and harrass occasionally. I need pathogen-infestors to have decent range against marine tank pushes. Else my banelings will surely die.
The other reason I don't get lots of mutalisks is the fact that +3 melee banelings 1HKO scv's. If you have mutalisks constantly harrassing him, his bases will be ridden with turrets. A third or fourth with only one turret is a buffet for a baneling-filled overlord dropping acidic death over the workers. As a terran that isn't being mutalisk harrassed will probably not build many turrets, they will have a hell of a surprise.
Another thing that I like to do in ZvT in the lategame is going Ultralisk baneling versus the marauders. You have to focusfire the banelings with tanks if you want to take them out, and seeing as terrans aren't doing that ( or having a hard time clicking a small green ball between monsters the size of godzilla ) the banelings will roll through the marauders with deadly effectiveness. Its a LOT more mobile than broodlord-infestor combinations and easily rams through any sort of fortification.
Ah ok I will throw that in there thanks .
I get about 12-15 muta's I think is normal for me mainly to just nullify drops, harass. baneling drops are good for mineral lines I agree but I tend not too do them, although I am trying too incorporate drop play late game zvt .
Yeah I use fungel/baneling/ultra/ling as I said thats my usual late game unit composition as its very strong, with drop play taking out expansions I think it will be alot better too ^_^.
I will update the main OP so its more clear thanks for the feedback always looking too improve so people can understand it better :D
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great guide! congrats on grandmaster!
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On April 13 2011 18:15 oGsTheStD wrote: great guide! congrats on grandmaster!
Thanks!
Ok so I just uploaded 4 more replays:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ghgvaa54q7t6ijv
Has me vsing ONElinko, NRGYuY (really good game really recommend watching this one), Viledominon, and Trimaster.
All the games showcase some flanking maneuvers, and how many muta's I normally get about.
I would also like too say I will add an infestor build to this zvt guide at some point once I feel comfortable with the build and all that. Just good too have multiple good zvt strategies that work then just one so expect that sometime in the future!
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This is very similar to the style I play at a much lower level (diamond) but I think the most useful thing you talked about was flanking. We all know we should do it, but I rarely do. Also pre-emptive roaches for hellions are just so great because their armor lets them perform pretty well against rines anyway.
Anyway, very nice guide. I'll be sure to check out the replays when I can.
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Any advice on early hellions as in gas before rax? The early 4 hellions always seem to mess up my economy while they get their FE up.
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On April 14 2011 05:00 HelloSon wrote: Any advice on early hellions as in gas before rax? The early 4 hellions always seem to mess up my economy while they get their FE up.
Well you should have a spine crawler done by the time that comes, roaches should be on the way also or seconds from being created, at worst case scenario put your drones from your natural too your main, block ramp with queens till roaches come out or just run by the spine crawler till roaches come out. Both ways work great.
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hey guys, just thought I would bump this.
Lately i have been thinking of Nydus worms and how too use them more effectively. Well on bigger maps (zvt for now only) i have been using nydus worms defensively. I only uploaded 1 replay (and a section to the guide!) I plan on adding more and the replay does showcase the use of it defensively! I would recommend it for zerg players wanting too incorporate nydus's into their game plan as I feel this is going to be a better way for zerg players to save expansions as the bigger maps get used more and more!
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Nice guide. I had a quick read on some of the strategies. Can you please fix up the grammar and spelling? It makes it much more understandable if everything makes sense.
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I think this lacks some more information about dealing with hellions. They are so popular right now, noone 2raxes anymore. It's real hard to tell what kind of hellion pressure he's going for, red/blue flames? Or one of those silly hellion harassments with one billion hellions?
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On April 21 2011 18:35 decaf wrote: I think this lacks some more information about dealing with hellions. They are so popular right now, noone 2raxes anymore. It's real hard to tell what kind of hellion pressure he's going for, red/blue flames? Or one of those silly hellion harassments with one billion hellions?
Yeah I'll add a portion on that. Everyone's back to hellions again Don't know why I didn't write it in the first place xD. I'll write a part on that ^_^
ok done! Added it in!
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Ok last bump! But wanted to let everyone know thanks too Trueredemption the OP should have better grammar and everything.
I know I got some complaints and I didn't ignore them! So should be easier too read and thanks again True ♥.
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dunno why double post sorry
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You seem to be relying on scouting banshee builds, how is that possible? Saccing overlords is a gamble at best and most masters + terrans know to not build anything in sight range of the top of their ramp. What happens when you get caught with 2 cloaked banshees with no spore crawlers down? I find I have to blind build 4x spores or have a 7 minute lair against any terran who doesn't FE simply because theres no way to reliably scout banshee builds. Is there someway to avoid investing so much in banshee defense? Or are you really able to definitively scout for it every game? Most T I play don't rally units to their wall off so all I can see there is 2 marines, and any OL angles are usually covered by another pair of patrolling marines. Granted like 1 in 5 games the T players fuck it up and forget to patrol marines or build something too close to the ramp.
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On April 22 2011 06:17 Synk wrote: You seem to be relying on scouting banshee builds, how is that possible? Saccing overlords is a gamble at best and most masters + terrans know to not build anything in sight range of the top of their ramp. What happens when you get caught with 2 cloaked banshees with no spore crawlers down? I find I have to blind build 4x spores or have a 7 minute lair against any terran who doesn't FE simply because theres no way to reliably scout banshee builds. Is there someway to avoid investing so much in banshee defense? Or are you really able to definitively scout for it every game? Most T I play don't rally units to their wall off so all I can see there is 2 marines, and any OL angles are usually covered by another pair of patrolling marines. Granted like 1 in 5 games the T players fuck it up and forget to patrol marines or build something too close to the ramp.
saccing an overlord gives you more information then you think at times. If you don't see any tech (factory/starport) you can normally at least see his marine count. I mean if you don't see anything and lose the overlord and you don't see an expansion or anything there are 2 things the terran can be doing.
Blue flamed hellions and as you said banshee/cloaked banshee. A huge giveaway is bunker at the top ramp.
I mean in reality you don't ever need to make 4 spore crawlers at each base as you should be fine with 1 spine at each base + queens. I rarely lose to banshee builds as I seem to know when their going it either with overlord scout, or just bunker at ramp. If you see the top of his ramp, see no bunker, no expansion and your sac overlord saw nothing I would grab roaches and push the front.
doing this will also force him to either show his tech (if you see hellions come out of nowhere you can assume blue flame coming up). You'll force something that well reveal it. I mean just always make a third queen, make a spore crawler at each base just encase if you can't tell if blue flamed or cloaked banshee.
This is just something that is annoying in zvt is not knowing sometimes and have to make a correct guess there's no 100% method just ways to make it easier.
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I mean in reality you don't ever need to make 4 spore crawlers at each base as you should be fine with 1 spine at each base + queens. I rarely lose to banshee builds as I seem to know when their going it either with overlord scout, or just bunker at ramp. If you see the top of his ramp, see no bunker, no expansion and your sac overlord saw nothing I would grab roaches and push the front.
I've actually lost a few games recently because I thought 1 spore was fine, as it turns out he can shoot your hatch outside of the spores detection range if he goes to the opposite side of the hatch from where the spore is at. I have no problem stopping banshees as long as I can detect them ( 4 queens do very well, usually I can have 2 or even 3 transfuses ready as well ). But once he gets in that sweet spot and starts killing my hatch if I don't have lair tech nearly done I'm dead because trying to build crawlers wont work, and trying to move and re-burrow one is also hopeless since 2 banshees can kill it before it burrows.
As far as the OL scout, 2 marines can kill it before it sees anything on most maps. I'm not really trying to be pessimistic here I've just tried it a lot ( basically every game ) and it has to be like a 70% chance that I see nothing but 2 or 3 marines which doesn't tell me much at all ( 1 rax can build 5 marines by the 5 minute mark, which doesn't alter any 1 base build at all really ). Your approach of just pushing with roaches is something I have started doing lately because it does force him to commit with whatever he has, thus I can figure out his build. But like having to practically all in a Terran just so I can scout him seems really really ... silly I guess.
Thanks for the feedback though, I guess your saying most of your games you can spot his build from the ramp or with a sac OL. The few games you can't scout you just do a early roach attack in order to force a response so you can scout. Honestly my scouting success rate has to be like 10%, I don't know what I'm doing differently. Sometimes I even send 2 OL's into the main at once from opposite sides and don't see me more than 5 marines( the T had 2 patrolling on both sides of his base ).
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well I seem to always see something more times then not. If he only sends 2 marines to kill your overlord your overlord will make it decently far in the base.
Do note your roach attack doesn't have too be all in or anything. Just send like 5-6 roaches to attack and be annoying while still droning up afterwards. It works great not all in, forces him (well most of the time) to react in a certain way by either revealing his hidden hellions, banshee (if its popped out).
I mean if you don't see another CC, and few marines are defending and no hellions are helping I would assume banshee and make 2 spores at each base just too be safe. The reason I said 1 spore crawler before is 1 spore is normally pretty good for detection if he goes 1 port cloaked banshee and thats normally not the biggest of deals (your lair shouldn't be too far away from finishing either I believe). vs 2 port banshee which you can normally scout with your overlord due to how much resources that takes he wont' have that many marines, you make about 4 spores at each base (or thats what I do LOL) with queens and then wait till muta's.
Its alot of investment but 2 port banshee is so all in its hilarious ^_^.
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I want to incorporate burrow for my banelings before the 2rax -> transition into marine tank with stim timing atk that is really popular. Will this work?
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On May 22 2011 15:19 Trakky wrote: I want to incorporate burrow for my banelings before the 2rax -> transition into marine tank with stim timing atk that is really popular. Will this work?
Like mid game? I imagine it will, honestly like alot of other top zergs have said, burrowed banelings are the future for zvt on bigger maps. Reason being is because they can't scan all the way across and alot of terrans don't scan right now because nobody does burrowed banelings.
I think its a fine idea, and something I am going to be messing around with. I do plan on adding it to the OP on using burrowed banelings but haven't been able to do it yet but will be doing it soon .
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Are you sure it's 25 -gas? because how come it goes backward?
"25 - gas (yes I delay gas a bit). as soon as spawning pool finishes make 2 queens. I add a spine crawler in case they go fast hellions, but it also helps defend quite a few different types of pressure. You can delay the spine crawler a little bit if you know are familiar with the hellion timing. 22-24- overlord (your preference) 24-27 (your preference)- Roach warren."
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On May 23 2011 14:28 Trakky wrote: Are you sure it's 25 -gas? because how come it goes backward?
"25 - gas (yes I delay gas a bit). as soon as spawning pool finishes make 2 queens. I add a spine crawler in case they go fast hellions, but it also helps defend quite a few different types of pressure. You can delay the spine crawler a little bit if you know are familiar with the hellion timing. 22-24- overlord (your preference) 24-27 (your preference)- Roach warren."
I'm not sure why I have the overlord after just a mistake I just now found thanks to you, as for the roach warren I think its fine where it is I think .
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So what's your first gas timing then? I find that going 4gas will cause me to have too much gas and I won't be able to manage my resources well because by making any lings/blings, I'm not depleting my gas at all. So basically, I find that if I am only on 2 bases getting only sling/bling/roaches, I only need 3 gases.
When I read this guide, it immediately reminds me what Nestea said about going sling/bling/roach. He says to get a super fast 3rd because if T doesn't rush to attack you, then you'll be way ahead in econ, and if he decides to attack, then you have roaches to fight head on (unlike mutas that cannot fight cost-effectively) and you'll have burrowed banelings which has the potential of ending the game. T will need to save up his scans because he cannot risk walking across the map blindly, and if he spot on with managing his energy, then the long wait will be heavily beneficial to the zerg. Once my 3rd base kicks in, I'll then get infestor and spire and get about ~10 mutas to deal with drops. I'll then decide later if I'll go BLs or ultras depending on his tank count.
I still do not know when to get upgrades and what upgrades to get and if I should go double evo. Because we're using roaches as a core unit, I still don't know if I should get range upgrade at all, or just focus on +1 melee and +1 armor. Thanks for the guide!
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On May 23 2011 15:01 Trakky wrote: So what's your first gas timing then? I find that going 4gas will cause me to have too much gas and I won't be able to manage my resources well because by making any lings/blings, I'm not depleting my gas at all. So basically, I find that if I am only on 2 bases getting only sling/bling/roaches, I only need 3 gases.
When I read this guide, it immediately reminds me what Nestea said about going sling/bling/roach. He says to get a super fast 3rd because if T doesn't rush to attack you, then you'll be way ahead in econ, and if he decides to attack, then you have roaches to fight head on (unlike mutas that cannot fight cost-effectively) and you'll have burrowed banelings which has the potential of ending the game. T will need to save up his scans because he cannot risk walking across the map blindly, and if he spot on with managing his energy, then the long wait will be heavily beneficial to the zerg. Once my 3rd base kicks in, I'll then get infestor and spire and get about ~10 mutas to deal with drops. I'll then decide later if I'll go BLs or ultras depending on his tank count.
I still do not know when to get upgrades and what upgrades to get and if I should go double evo. Because we're using roaches as a core unit, I still don't know if I should get range upgrade at all, or just focus on +1 melee and +1 armor. Thanks for the guide!
I can answer some of the questions you asked. While I like to go fast'ish muta's so i get my 4 gases pretty fast.
As for what nestea said about getting a fast third, I don't have the burrowed banelings and what not down yet and haven't been using it quiet yet (I keep forgetting and not playing enough good terrans that don't' all in xD). I imagine burrowed banelings allows you to get a faster third, its definitely something I'm going to be trying anyway against terrans that don't' all in ^^.
for upgrades, I recommend as soon as you get 3 base and gas going on that third base to have 2 evo's done and start getting carapace and melee. Reasons being as carapace/melee are better in every way due to the fact that you still have zerglings and banelings, late game broodlord/ultra's both get a bonus for the +1 melee (broodlings from broodlords get it), where ranged only roaches do.
And glad you liked the guide :D
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I feel like there is no need to rush for mutas instead of a faster 3rd because ppl go sling/bling/muta to gain map control once mutas are out so they can secure their 3rd. However, if you open with sling/bling/roach, you can secure your 3rd anyway without any map control because they can fight head on against anything a 2base T can throw at them (if they're on 1 base, just stick to 2 bases). By fast 3rd, I mean like, once I see expo from T, I get my 3rd right away, and it's been working well so far. I really like it when they scout and try to all in me because then I can just throw up as much defense as possible knowing that he'll attack (which is a good thing for Zerg because there's nothing worse than droning up and then finding out he's walking across the map to kill me and I'm not prepared), and if he doesn't then I'll be ahead in econ.
I'm only in masters so take this with a grain of salt. The usual 2 base marine tank with stim comes at around 9-10 mins, which is when in your opening you'll get mutas. Obviously mutas can't fight in a battle head on and you'll have quite a difficult time securing your 3rd. However by delaying mutas until 3rd base is finished, I only need 3 gases and can pump out a lot of sling/bling/roaches to defend against anything (because I don't need that much gas and just get all the minerals). By getting fast mutas, you'll be delaying your 3rd, and also putting yourself vulnerable for the T's timing attack, and I just feel like since you already open roach warren, managing an army for sling/bling/roaches/mutas is just too much for 2 bases. Also, I don't know why, but it seems like I can always get lair now before speed (my first gas is right when I start my 2 queens).
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On April 13 2011 09:58 Dante.Lass wrote: Nice, quite a lot of grammar mistakes tough!
LOL fail
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Wow. Great guide, I always wondered what set me apart from the other Pros, and this is definitely one (Of many) things that I have overlooked, especially ascertaining to Flanking. I had a follow up question: What should be my ratio of flanking vs frontal army (out of the total army)? Should it be straight 1/2 front and 1/2 flanking? Or a different ratio ? Also should the composition of the flanking army be in different ratios as well? I.E. Frontal Army 1/3 Lings 1/3 Roaches 1/3 Banes vs. Flanking army 1/2Lings 1/4 Roaches 1/4 Banes. etc. I feel like it would make a difference, but who knows, I'm just a little diamond zergy.
Another question would be timing. Do I attack at the same time? If this is not the case and I attack with the frontal army a second earlier, I feel as if the flanking army should have a little more lings and banelings than roaches, then the tanks would be demolished. Please let me know the answers to my questions and if any of my assumptions were clearly wrong,
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On May 24 2011 01:23 NoctisLucisCaelum wrote:Wow. Great guide, I always wondered what set me apart from the other Pros, and this is definitely one (Of many) things that I have overlooked, especially ascertaining to Flanking. I had a follow up question: What should be my ratio of flanking vs frontal army (out of the total army)? Should it be straight 1/2 front and 1/2 flanking? Or a different ratio ? Also should the composition of the flanking army be in different ratios as well? I.E. Frontal Army 1/3 Lings 1/3 Roaches 1/3 Banes vs. Flanking army 1/2Lings 1/4 Roaches 1/4 Banes. etc. I feel like it would make a difference, but who knows, I'm just a little diamond zergy. Another question would be timing. Do I attack at the same time? If this is not the case and I attack with the frontal army a second earlier, I feel as if the flanking army should have a little more lings and banelings than roaches, then the tanks would be demolished. Please let me know the answers to my questions and if any of my assumptions were clearly wrong,
glad you like it ^^. As for the flanking, I personally do 2 control groups of half army (or try to get half on each) with ling/roach/bane. You want to attack at the same time from like the front/back if you can. As your attacking make sure to select your banelings (or you can put them in a different control group your choice) and make sure they go for the marines on both sides while your roaches deal with tanks and muta's deal with tanks (muta's are not to be used for flanks they should be on a completely different hotkey all together!).
Doing this you still want to try to attack when his tanks are unseiged unless you just have a way superior force.
Hope this clarifies :D
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I marine-scv all in against zergs that go hatch before pool, works pretty well
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On May 24 2011 05:25 CrayAB wrote: I marine-scv all in against zergs that go hatch before pool, works pretty well
yeah i imagine it does. But once a zerg knows how to hold it off your just handing off free wins which is always nice
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Thank you for the nice read. Can you comment on Sheth's Speedling opening? I feel because protoss is my main I have yet to notice the subtle nuances that come along with each opening.
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A 15 hatch is safe vs 2 rax if you know its coming and defend properly.
This seems debatable to me, both from watching streams of zerg players and my own games. From what I usually see a 2 rax with only 1 or 2 scvs is fine, but if they end up bringing 4 or 5 scvs w/ the 2 rax constant marine pressure it gets really fucking messy really quick. I mean they may not win outright, but they absolutely do enough damage to negate any advantage the zerg had from a faster expo.
I'm just wondering honestly I stopped 15 hatching zvt a while ago and have been getting much much better zvt results and a lot less anger at marine/scv pushes. I think I am in somewhat of a minority position for the belief that blizzard really did not intend for zerg players to feel like they HAD to 15 hatch zvt to keep up in eco. I feel like 15 hatching is a risky play and if the T chooses to punish that risky play they have a good chance of doing so. Marines and scvs v. non speedlings and drones is sometimes really just painful to watch.
Regardless of that, what about maps where bunkers can be placed in stupid positions like XNC to make it so only 1 drone/ling can hit the marines at once?
Also your scouting drone can see if they went 2 rax or refinery first but I don't see how it's going to see if they went CC after their 2 rax or CC after their factory?
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On May 30 2011 03:39 Aldin_D2x wrote: Thank you for the nice read. Can you comment on Sheth's Speedling opening? I feel because protoss is my main I have yet to notice the subtle nuances that come along with each opening.
Well with sheth's speedling opening he doesn't start his expansion until about 21 food but has zergling speed a lot faster so he gets map control faster. But your economy won't be as good as if you 15 hatched.
On May 30 2011 04:30 DamnCats wrote:This seems debatable to me, both from watching streams of zerg players and my own games. From what I usually see a 2 rax with only 1 or 2 scvs is fine, but if they end up bringing 4 or 5 scvs w/ the 2 rax constant marine pressure it gets really fucking messy really quick. I mean they may not win outright, but they absolutely do enough damage to negate any advantage the zerg had from a faster expo. I'm just wondering honestly I stopped 15 hatching zvt a while ago and have been getting much much better zvt results and a lot less anger at marine/scv pushes. I think I am in somewhat of a minority position for the belief that blizzard really did not intend for zerg players to feel like they HAD to 15 hatch zvt to keep up in eco. I feel like 15 hatching is a risky play and if the T chooses to punish that risky play they have a good chance of doing so. Marines and scvs v. non speedlings and drones is sometimes really just painful to watch. Regardless of that, what about maps where bunkers can be placed in stupid positions like XNC to make it so only 1 drone/ling can hit the marines at once? Also your scouting drone can see if they went 2 rax or refinery first but I don't see how it's going to see if they went CC after their 2 rax or CC after their factory?
Even if he brings 5-6 scv's, if you defend properly you will be ahead (5-6 scv's that early is a must do damage or he will be decently behind even with mules). If you scout 2 rax, and place a spine as soon as your pool finishes you just have to hold off till the spine finishes (which isn't that hard) and your fine.
Also try to surround the marines not the scv's if you bring drones + lings. If you kill his marines his pressure is done and you are safe. If you have a lot of practice vs 2 rax pressure like that you'll eventually start holding it off easily. Now 15 hatch isn't a must in zvt but its what Me and a lot of other zergs do 99% of the time. Some people just don't like it and thats fine its not like it'll cost you a game if you don't 15 hatch and only 14/14.
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Right I agree once that spine finishes you're basically golden, but most of the time it seems spine is at like 30 percent when the marines and scvs show up and you basically have to throw zerglings and drones at them to buy time, then they just run backwards a bit doing the marine stutter step shenanigans while 1 scv is making a bunker close enough to fuck your spine. I guess the key is just really really good drone micro to make sure you lose as little of them as possible while having a queen destroy the scv making the bunker. I don't like sending zerglings and drones to that scv because he moves and they just sit there like assholes :[
And yea I know a LOT of zergs hatch first zvt, basically every terran I play seems to just assume I hatched first.
edit again: What about maps like metal and XNC where they can build their bunkers in such a position that only 1 or 2 drone/lings can attack the ball of scv/marines at once? And especially with the stop or hold position scv wall block?
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Hey, Master terran...
After reading this, I was curious on your approach too thor raven hellion combonation, i saw people throwing in"roach and mutas win" against thor 3/3 with hellion cover but thats definatly not the case when u have 5 ravens with seeker missle... You can literally cut the roach army's hp to 35 % within seconds of the start of the battle, plus mule calldowns since the conflict will be after u have 3 OC's (terran side)
I am also confused with how muta bling ling and roach will counter thor hellion raven mech play, where the terran opts to upgrade armour and transitions into 3 raven with 4-6 supporting vikings with +1 or + 2 armour making the dmg done by mutas negated substantially (proven in a guide on TL.net.
Your best bet to counter, I find in high masters, is to use an infestor roach army, purely infestor and roaches. You get many choices with this, but you negate his hellions since they do nothing vs roaches (obviously they do something but the pictures clear) and can't move and attack infestors because its guarded behind 160 supply of roaches (estimate). So generally this stomps the composition.
Just food for thought, but the downside is terran can mass expand early due to early harass and thor control (especially on big maps) so he can pool minerals like a mother fucker and Planetary fortress the map (literally...) then you have to transition into BL composition and thats a whole tech switch by then you die. It's actually the reason im high masters, my tvz is like 80% winrate(estimate again, but i win almost all of them) well my tvp and tvt are... 50? 60? maybe.
like i said, see what you think, if this isnt right correct me but im fairly confident its... vaguely accurate to the point its working for the league and ranking im at.
EDIT: if you go "well wont ravens still cut army HP down" when infestor mind controls (nueral parasite's) the thors (3-6 usually) they auto attack air first, ravens drop instantly if not controlled by strong micro.
It really is a strong anti mech composition (this is if they break away from tank play only also, and mass thors mainly)
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On May 30 2011 04:57 MERLIN. wrote: Hey, Master terran...
After reading this, I was curious on your approach too thor raven hellion combonation, i saw people throwing in"roach and mutas win" against thor 3/3 with hellion cover but thats definatly not the case when u have 5 ravens with seeker missle... You can literally cut the roach army's hp to 35 % within seconds of the start of the battle, plus mule calldowns since the conflict will be after u have 3 OC's (terran side)
I am also confused with how muta bling ling and roach will counter thor hellion raven mech play, where the terran opts to upgrade armour and transitions into 3 raven with 4-6 supporting vikings with +1 or + 2 armour making the dmg done by mutas negated substantially (proven in a guide on TL.net.
Your best bet to counter, I find in high masters, is to use an infestor roach army, purely infestor and roaches. You get many choices with this, but you negate his hellions since they do nothing vs roaches (obviously they do something but the pictures clear) and can't move and attack infestors because its guarded behind 160 supply of roaches (estimate). So generally this stomps the composition.
Just food for thought, but the downside is terran can mass expand early due to early harass and thor control (especially on big maps) so he can pool minerals like a mother fucker and Planetary fortress the map (literally...) then you have to transition into BL composition and thats a whole tech switch by then you die. It's actually the reason im high masters, my tvz is like 80% winrate(estimate again, but i win almost all of them) well my tvp and tvt are... 50? 60? maybe.
like i said, see what you think, if this isnt right correct me but im fairly confident its... vaguely accurate to the point its working for the league and ranking im at.
I have never faced a terran who goes mech with ravens and hunter seeker missile. I imagine a terran would need at least 3-4 bases to do this + have those upgrades?
After a certian amount of time you do want infestors as a zerg though with neural parasite because eventually 3/3 thors/tanks/hellions do just roll through roach/ling/bling/muta due to how strong they are.
But yeah I have 0 experience with that unit composition as of now so I don't really know
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Very elaborate guide, thankyou much for this.
I was particularly impressed with how many different scenarios you accurately covered, and how you had replays and discussions matched for each situation.
I, and I'm sure the rest of the community, appreciate your effort sir. /salute
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Thanks glad you enjoyed it ^^.
Also if anyone has any requests to add to the guide that I may not have please say so here and I will make sure to add it!
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Thanks for this guide. Is it good? I dunno, but at least I have a plan now. Before my plan was: 1. Drones 2.Units 3. ???? 4. Profit (not really).
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build drones, build a bunch of stuff when you see terran moving towards you, win
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Please add more anti-mech stuff! Seriously, the only real problem I have with Terran is when they mech up. To the point that I can be ahead the entire game, have two or more bases to his two, and he makes a single big push with tanks and wins. It's very frustrating! I know the standard answer is to move to Hive/blords, but sis there any decent way to deal with it in the mid-game?
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On May 31 2011 14:17 Sanctimonius wrote: Please add more anti-mech stuff! Seriously, the only real problem I have with Terran is when they mech up. To the point that I can be ahead the entire game, have two or more bases to his two, and he makes a single big push with tanks and wins. It's very frustrating! I know the standard answer is to move to Hive/blords, but sis there any decent way to deal with it in the mid-game?
I just looked at it and realized how short and kind of lame that is sorry about that I will add more content in that section very soon!
To your question, You can get infestors as soon as you see mech and get neural parasite. I know idra well get muta's and if he see's pure mech he gets infestation asap and gets neural parasite and gets a lot of infestors with ling/bane support. I would add roaches to it as well but thats just my personal preference.
You can do it with muta/ling/bane/roach as well (as long as you flank and keep up with upgrades) but I do think the infestor way is stronger and a much better counter. Faster broodlords are still good to get though faster then normal anyway ^^
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I thought tanks outrange neural parasite? I'll have to see that in action but the plan is to neural the thors? Or try to get the tanks while you engage?
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On May 31 2011 14:31 Sanctimonius wrote:I thought tanks outrange neural parasite? I'll have to see that in action but the plan is to neural the thors? Or try to get the tanks while you engage?
The thors if you can just because the thors can take out the tanks or the tanks fire on the thors. Siege does outrange neural but unless he has them all in a straight line which is like never you will be able to grab a tank if you want. I would go for the thors first tanks 2nd if possible.
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a question about breaking terran siege tank contain.
assuming I don't use roaches, and I am contained in my natural's ramp. I have lings and banelings speed done. How should I organise my attack? Should I sent in the ling first and then the banelings?
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On May 31 2011 15:18 ETisME wrote: a question about breaking terran siege tank contain.
assuming I don't use roaches, and I am contained in my natural's ramp. I have lings and banelings speed done. How should I organise my attack? Should I sent in the ling first and then the banelings?
Yes you would want your lings to get his first and not the banelings. Of course I would try not getting into this situation as its honestly no fun and very frustrating when you don't break out
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On May 31 2011 15:45 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 15:18 ETisME wrote: a question about breaking terran siege tank contain.
assuming I don't use roaches, and I am contained in my natural's ramp. I have lings and banelings speed done. How should I organise my attack? Should I sent in the ling first and then the banelings? Yes you would want your lings to get his first and not the banelings. Of course I would try not getting into this situation as its honestly no fun and very frustrating when you don't break out Thanks Sadly, this always happen to me when all my scouting were denied and I honestly just had to prepare some more lings and queens just in case of anything that is coming.
siege tanks and marines are just more difficult to deal with, since it takes time to morph the banelings, which also decrease the number of lings you have.
I just have huge trouble when encountering this type of push because I never know how much lings I would need to actually break through that. Either I over produced lings or underproduced. if too many, I tried to counter attack, only to find they have another siege tanks and killing off all the lings.
I guess it is all about experience, it's only my 200~ish games
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Hi Blade! I tryed your TvZ BO about 20 games and its really great! But I get in some situations in which I everytime loose
I got owned by a Terran which done a 1rax gas Bunker Rush. I engaged it with Zerglings but I'm not sure if it was the right decision, after I watched the replay I saw that he built it with only 2 scvs with 2 marines guarding it. I watched 12Weeks with the Pros Incontrol said that if there is a Bunker rush you should engage in the last possible moment. I thought it is right to engage when I got my spine crawler done and my hatch is nearly dieing.I done that but was behind in the economy.
Now my question: is it right to defend with drones with knowing that they are dieing before the bunker gets built up?
And my second question: Do you offer coaching ?
and sorry for my english
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On April 13 2011 18:15 oGsTheStD wrote: great guide! congrats on grandmaster!
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[QUOTE]On April 13 2011 18:15 oGsTheStD wrote: great guide! congrats on grandmaster![/QUOTEoo]oo oomooomoommomlo
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On April 14 2011 03:39 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 18:15 oGsTheStD wrote: great guide! congrats on grandmaster! Thanks! Ok so I just uploaded 4 more replays: http://www.mediafire.com/?ghgvaa54q7t6ijvHas me vsing ONElinko, NRGYuY (really good game really recommend watching this one), Viledominon, and Trimaster. All the games showcase some flanking maneuvers, and how many muta's I normally get about. I would also like too say I will add an infestor build to this zvt guide at some point once I feel comfortable with the build and all that. Just good too have multiple good zvt strategies that work then just one so expect that sometime in the future!
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On June 01 2011 01:23 blackkiwi wrote:Hi Blade! I tryed your TvZ BO about 20 games and its really great! But I get in some situations in which I everytime loose I got owned by a Terran which done a 1rax gas Bunker Rush. I engaged it with Zerglings but I'm not sure if it was the right decision, after I watched the replay I saw that he built it with only 2 scvs with 2 marines guarding it. I watched 12Weeks with the Pros Incontrol said that if there is a Bunker rush you should engage in the last possible moment. I thought it is right to engage when I got my spine crawler done and my hatch is nearly dieing.I done that but was behind in the economy. Now my question: is it right to defend with drones with knowing that they are dieing before the bunker gets built up? And my second question: Do you offer coaching ? and sorry for my english
Glad you like it! For the 1 rax bunker rush what you should do is wait for your lings to pop from the eggs and try to kill the marines. If you kill the marines (especially if its just off of 1 rax) his bunker rush is over and your in fine shape. It sounds like your just kind of letting the bunker get up and are to scared to engage. Don't be just bring a few drones and your lings and kill the marines. If he starts running away send 1 zergling to kill the scv making the bunker so it doesn't finish.
For 2 rax bunker rush its the same thing (but you bring more then like 2-3 drones ). If you can kill the marines before the bunker finishes his rush is over. You just need to make sure again to kill that scv and try to surround the marines.
Try not to send your drones before your lings pop as otherwise your guaranteed to lose drones and that always sucks. Hope this answers that first question!
As for the second yes I do just pm me if your interested ^^.
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Really nice guide, thanks for the good work!
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I disagree with the roach/ling opening because roaches delay mutalisks which are vital against banshees getting used for map control. Also, you can deal with marauder/hellion with baneling/ling. Banelings are extremely effective against hellions that can't micro them away if you get the lings to surround on creep.
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Great guide man. ZvT is my worst matchup atm. Will try your build out. Thank you!
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On June 01 2011 04:52 elitesniper420 wrote: I disagree with the roach/ling opening because roaches delay mutalisks which are vital against banshees getting used for map control. Also, you can deal with marauder/hellion with baneling/ling. Banelings are extremely effective against hellions that can't micro them away if you get the lings to surround on creep.
Well I don't mind delaying muta's later. Honestly unless the terran your playing is just praying your not going muta's, he's going to be defended and your going to do no damage with muta's whether you get them fast or 1 minute later. Its personal preference and this is what I prefer but I really don't see it as a big deal delaying the muta's a little bit.
Yes you can counter marauder/hellion with ling/bane but your also praying you get a surround with lings which alot of terrans that do this make 6 or so hellions which will roast zerglings bad. While it delays muta's I would still rather fight it with ling/roach then ling/bane especially sense the banes are slow ^^
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You can get a substantial mech/raven army off 3 bases, I do it constantly in Masters, I've tryed to upload replays but my windows wont let me for some reason -.- but yes, its a very deadly compositino because the slow buildtime and ihgh gas actually give u time to mass minearls so u can pump cmd centres, it sounds dumb but im high master and i use it vs z and hardly lose. Just a thought, ask someone to mess with composition its deadly.
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Do you believe that given the recent patch buffing infestors that maybe infestors should play a larger role in ZvT midgame than before? Possibly taking the place of mutas?
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On June 01 2011 12:26 .Mthex- wrote: Do you believe that given the recent patch buffing infestors that maybe infestors should play a larger role in ZvT midgame than before? Possibly taking the place of mutas?
No I don't really think so. I feel going straight to infestors is very prone to mass drop play. I believe terrans that see a zerg going infestors and not muta's should be abusing drop play to the max as without muta's you can't control it and imo can fuck you up big .
I do feel infestors are good where most zergs are using them where they start getting them after a certain amount of muta's or when they start hive and get some infestors. Just my opinion on it but I do not think they can take the place of muta's.
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Just wanted to say thanks for the info mate! I've been struggling a lot vs Terran recently and I'll definitely be looking at this thread again when I go ladder tonight :D
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great guide man it has everything for a solid standard ZvT play. I really appreciate it!
I hate to be that guy though but what is with you and 'to and 'too'. It's not hard. Use 'to' for everything. Only use 'too' if it can be replace with 'as well'
Please, it was so hard to read this I'm sure I wasn't the only one.
But I really do appreciate it!! Amazing write up!
I do have a question.
When should the evo(s) go down for upgrades, providing you didnt see a starport.
Do you recommend one evo to start for emergency spore, or put 2 down after lair for melee/carapace upgrades?
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On June 28 2011 17:41 Zedders wrote:great guide man it has everything for a solid standard ZvT play. I really appreciate it! I hate to be that guy though but what is with you and 'to and 'too'. It's not hard. Use 'to' for everything. Only use 'too' if it can be replace with 'as well' Please, it was so hard to read this I'm sure I wasn't the only one. But I really do appreciate it!! Amazing write up! I do have a question. When should the evo(s) go down for upgrades, providing you didnt see a starport. Do you recommend one evo to start for emergency spore, or put 2 down after lair for melee/carapace upgrades?
I start getting upgrades once I get my third base with gases going. Imo that is the perfect time to get upgrades. I would throw down the evo's while the third base is going then start the upgrades melee/carapace once you start gathering gas on there ^^.
As for the too, to thing I swore I fixed that but I guess this is the one guide I forgot to fix that :D. done now.
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What I'm trying to experiment with is using your opening and get to about 10 mutas with no +1, try to NOT let them die at all and just poke here and there to scout and force a few turrets but not actually go try to kill anything that might get my mutas dead, and then go quick infestor into fast ultras because ultras+couple of infestors > marine tank. The 10ish mutas are made to just handle drops in the future and the relatively quick infestors into ultras are really good against standard marine tank. I'm still not sure though if I should get hive as soon as infestor pit finishes, or wait until the gland upgrade is done THEN get hive, which delays ultras by quite a bit.
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On June 29 2011 06:33 Trakky wrote: What I'm trying to experiment with is using your opening and get to about 10 mutas with no +1, try to NOT let them die at all and just poke here and there to scout and force a few turrets but not actually go try to kill anything that might get my mutas dead, and then go quick infestor into fast ultras because ultras+couple of infestors > marine tank. The 10ish mutas are made to just handle drops in the future and the relatively quick infestors into ultras are really good against standard marine tank. I'm still not sure though if I should get hive as soon as infestor pit finishes, or wait until the gland upgrade is done THEN get hive, which delays ultras by quite a bit. Well you could get the gland upgrade and go hive .
Thats fine for you to do it that way but i would recommend getting upgrades though. Ultra's I feel minimum should be 4-2 before being made. Any less and they get rolled over even easier. I personally prefer a huge flock of muta's but there is nothing wrong with only making 10 to secure drop ships and getting faster infestors and what not ^^. I would say that is fine and definitely a lot better then going straight infestor :D
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I have seen strategies that you mentioned vs mech, but what about vs ghost if I may ask? They are decent vs muta, and zerg in general thanks to snipe.
Very decent guide though blade, well done.
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On June 29 2011 18:23 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: I have seen strategies that you mentioned vs mech, but what about vs ghost if I may ask? They are decent vs muta, and zerg in general thanks to snipe.
Very decent guide though blade, well done.
I have not ever really faced ghosts when I am going muta. The only time I have ever seen ghosts was when I was getting infestors. so I don't really know to much but I can't imagine ghosts being an amazing counter to muta's that early as that would lower their siege tank count by quiet a bit considering the money a ghost cost.
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blade55555:
I have not ever really faced ghosts when I am going muta. The only time I have ever seen ghosts was when I was getting infestors. so I don't really know to much but I can't imagine ghosts being an amazing counter to muta's that early as that would lower their siege tank count by quiet a bit considering the money a ghost cost.
Well, Ghosts wouldn't be cost-efficient in contrast to Marines versus a Baneling, and Ghosts only do 10 damage to Banelings (since they're not Light) so it wouldn't be worth that either. With Baneling regeneration it's 4 shots, so again, not worth using compared to Siege Tanks to cover the Marines and the Marines to cover the Siege Tanks.
Just my $0.02.
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"Thats fine for you to do it that way but i would recommend getting upgrades though. Ultra's I feel minimum should be 4-2 before being made." Umm.... can you rephrase that?
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On June 30 2011 13:45 Trakky wrote: "Thats fine for you to do it that way but i would recommend getting upgrades though. Ultra's I feel minimum should be 4-2 before being made." Umm.... can you rephrase that?
like Ultra's should have the + 2 melee, + 2 carapace from evo's with the + 2 armor plating from the ultra cavern upgraded before being made. I would not make ultra's with 2-1 stats for instance thats just going to get wrecked.
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Oh I see, because usually the weapon upgrade comes before the armor so it should be 2/4. But yea I totally understand what you mean, just to confirm that's all. edit: oh nvm, you're right, armor comes before weapon.
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Ok so I have this really big problem I can't seem to handle. So a lot of Ts nowadays are opening hellions with a reactor factory, but the problem isn't that, it's the transition that follows. After the hellion pressure, I have no idea if he's going 1port cloak banshee, 2 port no cloak banshee, BLUE flame hellions, or no-bf spam of regular hellions. Now I just saw a GSTL game between FXO vs Zenex (the 3rd game) where T went hellion opening, went 2port, and hid his banshees until he has a good number of them out and then rolled the zerg. This is just build order loss, but there's really no way for Zerg to scout that and he would need like 5 queens to handle the banshees and the new rallied ones (because any good micro from T would get banshees out of attack range of spores). Again, the problem is not the unit composition he has, it's that there's no way a zerg can have enough time to prepare for them because mutas won't be out in time to deal with the banshees and a zerg would have to blindly make like 5 queens, but then what if T doesn't go for 2port? T has so many options to choose after doing the hellion opening. I tried going blind hydras and made roach/hydra my main unit comp and then do doom drops, and it did work really well against any kind of 2port/ BF hellions/ mass thors, but against marine tank it just melts.
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For the chance you should be doing a little roach pressure, that is really you're only chance to see if he's going banshee or not. Sacrificing an overlord won't reveal to much but can help so do both at the same time. He should have to force show his tech.
I build a blind evo just so I can make spores while going to lair if I feel banshee's are coming.
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Do you have any tips/indications for checking if banshees are coming? maybe check his nat at X time and if no expo, cloak is coming or something like that.
Generally, after seeing hellions, I would rush spire asap to try to get mutas out, is this a good idea? because I rush it after seeing only hellions, without even knowing if he has banshee as followup or not.
Sacing ovi never scouts anything because 2 rines can kill it before it sees anything, i'll try the roach pressure and see if it helps me reveal his tech. I have an evo built but in games, I don't know when I'm suppose to build spores to handle cloak banshees, so I just blindly built them (and ofcourse I don't want to waste drones and resources so are there any tips here? because I'm just getting them blind)
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the best bet is if you see no expansion a like 6-7 minutes in the game he is probably doing something sneaky.
If you don't see anything prepare for blue flamed, make another queen, and a spore if you're roach pressure reveals nothing. Its all you can really do and better then rushing muta imo due to you having a bad economy if you just rush it insanely fast.
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I browsed through your posts blade but didn't see anything relating to queen use.
I do pretty much the same build except for end-game, instead of infestors, I'll emphasize minerals and pump out queens to support my broodlords. Supporting those queens with lings and roaches, throwing in corruptors if he's going for vikings.
This turns my brood ball into a massive siege engine and is VERY hard for the Terran to deal with properly.
I only transition to ultras if my opponent over-produces vikings (like 10+) at which point my upgrades are right around 3/1/2 with carapace 3 researching.
Have you played with queens? Is there a reason you don't utilize them?
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I don't use queens because they are way to slow to get across the map on most maps. I see no reason in using them considering you will probably have to use a nydus to get them to the location of where you want them. That to me is a waste of money. It can be strong but not worth it to me ^^.
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You said to do some roach pressure, but if I walk my roaches across the map, what's going to stop his fast hellions runby? and ofcourse leaving roaches defending is pretty ineffective.
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On July 03 2011 05:58 Trakky wrote: You said to do some roach pressure, but if I walk my roaches across the map, what's going to stop his fast hellions runby? and ofcourse leaving roaches defending is pretty ineffective.
When you're roaches pop out he will only have about 2 hellions. When you pressure just leave 1 roach behind. The roaches are not meant to kill them or even do damage. It is more meant to force him to reveal his secret tech (banshee's/hellions). He won't have very many marines if he's doing blue flamed hellions or banshee.
If you need to, spread you're drones so he can't just kill all the drones at the base. Sorry for late response was with family past 5 days and didn't have a ton of time
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Sorry for the misunderstanding. So just to clarify everything - if I see a reactor factory, I should do a ~6 roach pressure to reveal his tech, however my question earlier was concerning that if I walk my roaches out to his base, then he'll have some hellions runby in my mineral lines while my roaches are half a map away towards his base. So to prevent this, I should leave a roach defending just in case. Is this correct? Thank you again by the way of answering so many questions by me.
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Tremendous guide, very complete and well-presented.
I came to the same conclusion as you on my own in regards to gas/slings in ZvT. I decided the earliest I needed speed was at about the 7:30 mark to deal with a siege tank/marine push. Spines, queens and slowlings are not adequate to deal with siege. Counting back from that mark in terms of mining times & build times, I take one gas at about 4:00-4:30. This also gives me time to get banes out in time to deal with an early bio push. Before that I've relied on queens & spines to defend early hellion harass. It's working ok for me (at a much lower level of play than yours).
I have a question about the concept of "early roach pressure." I tried early roaches ZvT after Sheth showcased this on Mr. Bitter and Day[9] also analyzed Sheth's ZvT style at the same time. I found that quite often I would arrive at the Terran base and find the top of the ramp walled with 2 depots and a barracks and a handful of marines. I got to feeling like a few roaches can't accomplish much in that situation and I had wasted the resources on them. So I went back to moving straight to a standard sling/bling style with heavy upgrades (barring scouted mech, air etc.).
What's the right approach there? Run the roaches up the ramp and try to focus down the marines? Park the roaches at his nat for intimidation purposes? Bring an overlord to get high-ground vision and snipe buildings? Bring'em home? I'd appreciate your thoughts about this because I feel you're on to something here but I just can't execute it right.
Again, great guide and it's terrific you are taking time to answer questions even five pages into the post.
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On July 06 2011 17:36 Trakky wrote: Sorry for the misunderstanding. So just to clarify everything - if I see a reactor factory, I should do a ~6 roach pressure to reveal his tech, however my question earlier was concerning that if I walk my roaches out to his base, then he'll have some hellions runby in my mineral lines while my roaches are half a map away towards his base. So to prevent this, I should leave a roach defending just in case. Is this correct? Thank you again by the way of answering so many questions by me.
Yes that is correct, you should leave a roach or 2 behind depending on how many you make. I normally make about 4-5 and have found this method is the best in terms of trying to see what he gets. Of course if you get lucky and scout his base with an overlord you do not need to do this type of roach pressure but if you can't which is very likely you won't that is what I do ^^.
On July 07 2011 02:48 sick_transit wrote: Tremendous guide, very complete and well-presented.
I came to the same conclusion as you on my own in regards to gas/slings in ZvT. I decided the earliest I needed speed was at about the 7:30 mark to deal with a siege tank/marine push. Spines, queens and slowlings are not adequate to deal with siege. Counting back from that mark in terms of mining times & build times, I take one gas at about 4:00-4:30. This also gives me time to get banes out in time to deal with an early bio push. Before that I've relied on queens & spines to defend early hellion harass. It's working ok for me (at a much lower level of play than yours).
I have a question about the concept of "early roach pressure." I tried early roaches ZvT after Sheth showcased this on Mr. Bitter and Day[9] also analyzed Sheth's ZvT style at the same time. I found that quite often I would arrive at the Terran base and find the top of the ramp walled with 2 depots and a barracks and a handful of marines. I got to feeling like a few roaches can't accomplish much in that situation and I had wasted the resources on them. So I went back to moving straight to a standard sling/bling style with heavy upgrades (barring scouted mech, air etc.).
What's the right approach there? Run the roaches up the ramp and try to focus down the marines? Park the roaches at his nat for intimidation purposes? Bring an overlord to get high-ground vision and snipe buildings? Bring'em home? I'd appreciate your thoughts about this because I feel you're on to something here but I just can't execute it right.
Again, great guide and it's terrific you are taking time to answer questions even five pages into the post.
When you use you're roaches you should run them up the ramp. If you see a ton of marines, just pull back. If you see so many marines you feel 4-5 roaches can not kill them then he shouldn't be able to afford getting super high tech that fast (like cloak banshee, or blue flamed hellion). A terran can't produce that many marines off of 1 rax when teching, and if he's 2 raxing they normally don't' tech as that takes longer then normal due to the delayed gas by a lot.
So if you see a ton of marines then you don't really have to worry about any sort of cloaked banshee. The only thing you would have to worry about then is 4 rax marine all in. Going up his ramp is fine with roaches because his depot's block his marines from running out and you can retreat by the time his masses of marines can run down the ramp if he chooses to engage.
After that small pressure you do, just bring them home. There is no reason to sacrifice them as they can be very useful later in case he does do a 4 rax marine all in or something like that.
Thanks, I try to help out best I can because I remember when I wanted help so try to give it back to people who were in my situation ^_^.
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So, I was reading this and I was wondering as far as the 2 rax is concerned, is the information still useful; that is, pulling all but 4 drones to the natural to defend.
I've been losing to 2 rax bunker rushes and, after practicing with a high masters terran that was admittedly bad at bunker rushing, pulling 8+ drones usually does the trick for me. Is there a standard amount of drones to pull initially to deal with a bunker rush, is, more or less, what I'm asking.
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On July 07 2011 10:17 Amaterasu1234 wrote:So, I was reading this and I was wondering as far as the 2 rax is concerned, is the information still useful; that is, pulling all but 4 drones to the natural to defend. I've been losing to 2 rax bunker rushes and, after practicing with a high masters terran that was admittedly bad at bunker rushing, pulling 8+ drones usually does the trick for me. Is there a standard amount of drones to pull initially to deal with a bunker rush, is, more or less, what I'm asking.
You do not need to pull that many drones to hold off a standard 2 rax.
for the standard 2 rax 4-5 drones with your lings to kill off his marines is imo the best way to hold off a 2 rax. If you can surround and kill his marines the rush is over and you are safe for the time being.
Now if he's pulling all of his scv's with his marines then yes you want to send every drone but 4. You honestly don't even need a spine crawler to deal with standard 2 rax aggression anymore if you do drone/ling micro correctly. The spine is if you mess up with your micro a bit or you just want to be safe. Its definitely not as needed as it was a few months ago due to how zerg players have gotten used to holding it.
I would also have a drone attacking the scv building the bunker while you try to surround his marines.
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Blade how do you hold 11/11 or 11/12. What the guy does is 11/12 or something and bring 6 scvs and makes 2 bunkers next to my ramp/hatchery at my natural. I've tried engaging with drones and first 6 lings before but he just has too much at this time.
I've only held doing 1515 0 gas 18 drone 18 OL 1 queen only ling and double spine in my natural mineral line when i have $200 for unburrow to contest the bunker. Also, I've only held when he doesn't stop my first lings coming out of my main, allowing me to cut off the 9th/10th marine and so on from joining the double bunker. But if he blocks my main I die. I don't see how 1514 can help because i get crushed engaging with 1515 so I don't see any need for the slightly earlier lings.
Please help! Much worse player raping me!
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On July 08 2011 02:46 arbitrageur wrote: Blade how do you hold 11/11 or 11/12. What the guy does is 11/12 or something and bring 6 scvs and makes 2 bunkers next to my ramp/hatchery at my natural. I've tried engaging with drones and first 6 lings before but he just has too much at this time.
I've only held doing 1515 0 gas 18 drone 18 OL 1 queen only ling and double spine in my natural mineral line when i have $200 for unburrow to contest the bunker. Also, I've only held when he doesn't stop my first lings coming out of my main, allowing me to cut off the 9th/10th marine and so on from joining the double bunker. But if he blocks my main I die. I don't see how 1514 can help because i get crushed engaging with 1515 so I don't see any need for the slightly earlier lings.
Please help! Much worse player raping me!
For that you have to pull more then the normal amount of drones. Something I have started doing is putting a drone on hold position in that area where they can put bunkers and hide the marines there with 6 scv's on hold position. (I hope I am not misunderstanding the bunker placement you are talking about).
When you see 2 rax you should constantly be pumping zerglings until you hold. Also if you see an 11/11 or 11/12 I would make a spine crawler. if its a normal 2 rax (12/14 I believe?) don't really need it.
Just try to surround his marines if at all possible with your ling/drones. As said before if you can kill his marines, even an 11/12 his rush will be done, and if you kill his 6 scv's he is ridiculously behind. Pulling 6 scv's is an all in bunker rush and if you can hold it without taking to much damage you are going to be in a very good position.
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Is your midgame composition still roach/ling/bane/muta? Do you think mutas are better than infestors in ZvT, if so, why? I know this guide was posted pre-infestor buff (I think anyways), so I don't know if you've changed your style. Personally, I feel quite the opposite, but I'm also quite a worse player. ^^
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On July 17 2011 14:52 Mayor wrote: Is your midgame composition still roach/ling/bane/muta? Do you think mutas are better than infestors in ZvT, if so, why? I know this guide was posted pre-infestor buff (I think anyways), so I don't know if you've changed your style. Personally, I feel quite the opposite, but I'm also quite a worse player. ^^
I do believe most mid-game unit comps in ZvT are muta/ling/bling. Mutas just provide so many options for harassment and containing and denying expos, and wrecking drop attempts, etc. Infestors can slow down a push, which is why they are good after mutas have done, or are doing, their job.
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Ok so once you've scouted a 2 rax coming you should make all your larva into lings Really? I think you could be more specific than this. Personally my 2 rax is trying to get you to do this. I come in, touch the creep, dance around a lil bit then peace on out.
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On July 17 2011 15:47 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +Ok so once you've scouted a 2 rax coming you should make all your larva into lings Really? I think you could be more specific than this. Personally my 2 rax is trying to get you to do this. I come in, touch the creep, dance around a lil bit then peace on out. YOUR 2RAX. As in, Z can't know what the T plans to do. Make more marines and go kill if you don't see enough lings, or stop making marines and expand. It's better to overmake lings and catch up with injects than to just flat out die.
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Will the 3 spines that are meant to hold off hellions also hold off drops? I feel like I get destroyed by terran drops in the midgame even when I have mutas because he figures out a way to take out all my scouting overlords to leave me mostly blind until it's too late.
If not, what is the best way to hold drops?
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On July 17 2011 14:52 Mayor wrote: Is your midgame composition still roach/ling/bane/muta? Do you think mutas are better than infestors in ZvT, if so, why? I know this guide was posted pre-infestor buff (I think anyways), so I don't know if you've changed your style. Personally, I feel quite the opposite, but I'm also quite a worse player. ^^
I have updated the guide in the time of the infestor buff. I still feel infestors are worse then muta's in zerg vs terran.
Reasons being are that infestors can NOT handle drops. A good terran if they see you going straight infestors can abuse you so bad with drops if they know what they are doing. You can see drops and have to prepare for them. If you are out of position with your army for example and he drops you will not get there for awhile while with muta's you can get there a lot faster. Also you can not really harass a terran base at all. They don't have to worry about it so they can take a third base faster and not have to worry about a huge flock of muta's destroying their base or something. They don't' have to position their marines to be able to run into the main as soon as muta's fly in.
Infestors are great defensive, not so great offensive from experience. I get infestors once I am on my way to tier 3 tech as that is when I feel they are worth getting.
Its just a mess that is why I, and many other high tier zerg players (no i'm not calling myself high tier!) still go muta's first instead of infestors.
I actually do muta/ling/bane with early roaches but dont' make roaches as much as I used to. Its still strong I just kind of forget now of days xD.
Really? I think you could be more specific than this. Personally my 2 rax is trying to get you to do this. I come in, touch the creep, dance around a lil bit then peace on out.
That is what a 2 rax is supposed to do. If you were to just dance on creep, and he made pure drones and you walked away. Well you are playing really stupid. If you don't make all the larva lings you will DIE to a 2 rax, especially if they make a bunker.
Will the 3 spines that are meant to hold off hellions also hold off drops? I feel like I get destroyed by terran drops in the midgame even when I have mutas because he figures out a way to take out all my scouting overlords to leave me mostly blind until it's too late.
If not, what is the best way to hold drops?
All right, he should not be able to kill your overlords when you spread them out later in the game. What you should do is have overlords in area's where marines can not kill them all over the map so you can spot them and always try to spread your overlords, its what I do and what all zergs should be doing is spreading them even into the mid-late game when they make overlords if possible.
But later in the game, you should have a lot of minerals if you are going muta/ling/bane. What I do is I make 4-5 spines at all my expansions (and probably should my main like a lot of players are doing now). They work great, they distract the marines to give you time to get there or if the player just shift clicked drop then his marines might drop into the middle of 4 spines and all die doing no damage. Those are always nice .
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On July 18 2011 05:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 14:52 Mayor wrote: Is your midgame composition still roach/ling/bane/muta? Do you think mutas are better than infestors in ZvT, if so, why? I know this guide was posted pre-infestor buff (I think anyways), so I don't know if you've changed your style. Personally, I feel quite the opposite, but I'm also quite a worse player. ^^ I have updated the guide in the time of the infestor buff. I still feel infestors are worse then muta's in zerg vs terran. Reasons being are that infestors can NOT handle drops. A good terran if they see you going straight infestors can abuse you so bad with drops if they know what they are doing. You can see drops and have to prepare for them. If you are out of position with your army for example and he drops you will not get there for awhile while with muta's you can get there a lot faster. Also you can not really harass a terran base at all. They don't have to worry about it so they can take a third base faster and not have to worry about a huge flock of muta's destroying their base or something. They don't' have to position their marines to be able to run into the main as soon as muta's fly in. Infestors are great defensive, not so great offensive from experience. I get infestors once I am on my way to tier 3 tech as that is when I feel they are worth getting. Its just a mess that is why I, and many other high tier zerg players (no i'm not calling myself high tier!) still go muta's first instead of infestors. I actually do muta/ling/bane with early roaches but dont' make roaches as much as I used to. Its still strong I just kind of forget now of days xD.
Okay, thanks! Much appreciated, I was also wondering how many roaches would you normally get throughout the whole game? Are they something you don't make past the early game,after hellions are gone? Or do you sprinkle them in with your lings/mutas throughout the game until you hit hive?
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On July 18 2011 13:06 Mayor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 05:23 blade55555 wrote:On July 17 2011 14:52 Mayor wrote: Is your midgame composition still roach/ling/bane/muta? Do you think mutas are better than infestors in ZvT, if so, why? I know this guide was posted pre-infestor buff (I think anyways), so I don't know if you've changed your style. Personally, I feel quite the opposite, but I'm also quite a worse player. ^^ I have updated the guide in the time of the infestor buff. I still feel infestors are worse then muta's in zerg vs terran. Reasons being are that infestors can NOT handle drops. A good terran if they see you going straight infestors can abuse you so bad with drops if they know what they are doing. You can see drops and have to prepare for them. If you are out of position with your army for example and he drops you will not get there for awhile while with muta's you can get there a lot faster. Also you can not really harass a terran base at all. They don't have to worry about it so they can take a third base faster and not have to worry about a huge flock of muta's destroying their base or something. They don't' have to position their marines to be able to run into the main as soon as muta's fly in. Infestors are great defensive, not so great offensive from experience. I get infestors once I am on my way to tier 3 tech as that is when I feel they are worth getting. Its just a mess that is why I, and many other high tier zerg players (no i'm not calling myself high tier!) still go muta's first instead of infestors. I actually do muta/ling/bane with early roaches but dont' make roaches as much as I used to. Its still strong I just kind of forget now of days xD. Okay, thanks! Much appreciated, I was also wondering how many roaches would you normally get throughout the whole game? Are they something you don't make past the early game,after hellions are gone? Or do you sprinkle them in with your lings/mutas throughout the game until you hit hive?
I personally think having some with your army is good just for tanking some tank shots or something. But I normally make 5 early game at minimum. I leave 1 behind encase he tries a hellion drive by and use the other 4 to do some early pressure.
I use the 4 to force him to either reveal his tech, like if he's going banshee's and not expanding he will have to pull his banshee to defend or die (unless he scouts the roaches coming a mile away). Or blue flame hellions.
An example of this would be me vs rainbow. The replay is here: http://www.mediafire.com/?aobgeoc9jchwkap
Perfect example of me forcing his tech (even though he didn't really have any hidden tech but you see what happens due to him not expecting it and being a little greedy).
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On July 18 2011 05:23 blade55555 wrote:All right, he should not be able to kill your overlords when you spread them out later in the game. What you should do is have overlords in area's where marines can not kill them all over the map so you can spot them and always try to spread your overlords, its what I do and what all zergs should be doing is spreading them even into the mid-late game when they make overlords if possible. But later in the game, you should have a lot of minerals if you are going muta/ling/bane. What I do is I make 4-5 spines at all my expansions (and probably should my main like a lot of players are doing now). They work great, they distract the marines to give you time to get there or if the player just shift clicked drop then his marines might drop into the middle of 4 spines and all die doing no damage. Those are always nice . I see. Thanks. Actually I was not clear enough in my description, what my enemy did was make one viking out of his starport to hunt down the overlords I had spread out, and he would follow that up with drop harassment, which would later lead to him getting an incredible lead, or lead to success with a 1 base allin. He easily got starport tech out before my mutas as he opened with reactor hellion.
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On July 24 2011 02:28 Ardhimas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 05:23 blade55555 wrote:All right, he should not be able to kill your overlords when you spread them out later in the game. What you should do is have overlords in area's where marines can not kill them all over the map so you can spot them and always try to spread your overlords, its what I do and what all zergs should be doing is spreading them even into the mid-late game when they make overlords if possible. But later in the game, you should have a lot of minerals if you are going muta/ling/bane. What I do is I make 4-5 spines at all my expansions (and probably should my main like a lot of players are doing now). They work great, they distract the marines to give you time to get there or if the player just shift clicked drop then his marines might drop into the middle of 4 spines and all die doing no damage. Those are always nice . I see. Thanks. Actually I was not clear enough in my description, what my enemy did was make one viking out of his starport to hunt down the overlords I had spread out, and he would follow that up with drop harassment, which would later lead to him getting an incredible lead, or lead to success with a 1 base allin. He easily got starport tech out before my mutas as he opened with reactor hellion.
If he makes an early viking, prepare for a drop. I have noticed when my terran opponent makes an early viking to kill overlords he always drops me 30-60 seconds later. I'm not joking when I say they do this 90% of the time I would say when they make that early viking.
After muta's come out, you should spread your overlords again as his vikings can't touch them or they die to muta's. ^_^
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Any good suggestions to BF hellions drop into main (from the Slayers at MLG?). I've seen so many versions of defense:
1. really really fast mutas (DRG did it) 2. early pure roach pressure (Idra did it) 3. some spines, no roaches (I always see this one fail) 4. some roaches just for defense (T still kills a million drones in the end)
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Also, while watching several replays, I realize that even though your mins get to like, 1k+, you don't get any macro hatches. My rule of thumb is that, when I see my mins going above like, 600, I'll just drop a macro hatch, cuz I know that it'll take a really really long time to bring my money down, and might as well throw my hatch down if I know I'm going to have my money above 300 for like 2 minutes.
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On August 08 2011 02:49 Trakky wrote: Also, while watching several replays, I realize that even though your mins get to like, 1k+, you don't get any macro hatches. My rule of thumb is that, when I see my mins going above like, 600, I'll just drop a macro hatch, cuz I know that it'll take a really really long time to bring my money down, and might as well throw my hatch down if I know I'm going to have my money above 300 for like 2 minutes.
do note some of the replays are quiet old, I do plan on editing the main OP, and adding some replays as I almost always get a macro hatch in zvt!
Any good suggestions to BF hellions drop into main (from the Slayers at MLG?). I've seen so many versions of defense:
1. really really fast mutas (DRG did it) 2. early pure roach pressure (Idra did it) 3. some spines, no roaches (I always see this one fail) 4. some roaches just for defense (T still kills a million drones in the end)
I do early roaches. Always do (believe its in the OP as well). I use 4 roaches always to put some pressure at my opponents base (i'll have 6, 2 at home incase he makes hellions and runs around). I go to his front base, force him to either make a bunker, show his tech (lots of hellions/banshee/tank), and If i am lucky will do some damage to his economy. But the point of it is to try to reveal what tech he is doing.
If you split drones correctly and have roaches you wont' take much damage, honestly I dont' think really really fast muta, or some spines and no roaches as very viable if they bring a medivac and drop. Just my opinion on it, but I have always thought early roaches were the best option for early defense ^_^.
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Hey guys, bumping this real fast to say I did modify the guide a little bit in the OP with some more refinement as well.
Also I added 3 replays that I played on the korean server and I believe all 3 showcase late game play.
http://www.mediafire.com/?qxm3pa713cxh5pl
Enjoy and hope this helps you guys out! for people who read my zvp guide I will be updating that very soon and adding replays as well from korea ^_^.
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Well defined guide. Zerg is still the most unexplored race.
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I've been having a hell of a time against Terran lately. I usually don't have a problem holding off marine/tank with ling/bling/muta, but once they transition into more mech play (blue flame hellions and thors...STILL backed up by a crap ton of marines), I have no idea what to do. I've tried adding roaches to the mix, but the Thors and tanks eat them alive before they can do barely any damage. Magic boxing my mutas doesn't work because the two or three thors are surrounded by marines, which are surrounded by hellions who incinerate my lings. By the time I get Brood Lords out, he already anticipates it and gets a few vikings. I really hate using ultralisks against Terran because they're pretty much useless, especially against marine/tank-backed Thors. My only option is infestors, but they cost so much in gas, that my overall army is weakened because of it.
I'm at a complete loss.
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On August 08 2011 13:53 HungShark wrote: I've been having a hell of a time against Terran lately. I usually don't have a problem holding off marine/tank with ling/bling/muta, but once they transition into more mech play (blue flame hellions and thors...STILL backed up by a crap ton of marines), I have no idea what to do. I've tried adding roaches to the mix, but the Thors and tanks eat them alive before they can do barely any damage. Magic boxing my mutas doesn't work because the two or three thors are surrounded by marines, which are surrounded by hellions who incinerate my lings. By the time I get Brood Lords out, he already anticipates it and gets a few vikings. I really hate using ultralisks against Terran because they're pretty much useless, especially against marine/tank-backed Thors. My only option is infestors, but they cost so much in gas, that my overall army is weakened because of it.
I'm at a complete loss.
Well if you see that he is transitioning into more mech play after his first push dies or something then you should be goign infestors. It really won't make your army that much weaker. You should stop producing muta's, just make lots of lings/infestor with some banelings and fungel growth for the marines and using your muta's to clean up the mess after you take out his AA, with Neural and fungel that is what you should do if he transitions into more mech style.
When he already has vikings out you should have infestor/broodlord/ling/bane with muta's that should not be dead. Your muta's are very good at keeping broodlords alive, especially when you fungel the vikings. When you go hive, on most maps you should have 4 mining bases.
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I've been having trouble with losing early map control (and later the game) to hellions lately so I can't wait to try out this style this afternoon.
Roaches are very difficult to beat for map control and are so robust compared to speedlings. I also imagine this style transitions well to a roach/ling/bane timing attack for things like close positions.
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Yes it does, if you are aiming to do a roach/ling/bane timing attack well you got the roaches already .
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Thank you for this awesome guide. Although, I've noticed that before you updated the guide, the gas timing was at 25, basically right before the roach warren. Now it's slightly earlier (i.e. 18-19). Is there any particular reason behind this change?
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I've really never done a lot of Nydus just for economy, as in having worms at expos for fast defense. One of the problem i have late game vs t is dealing with drop harass and that could be really helpful...
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On August 09 2011 06:10 MuffinCookie wrote: Thank you for this awesome guide. Although, I've noticed that before you updated the guide, the gas timing was at 25, basically right before the roach warren. Now it's slightly earlier (i.e. 18-19). Is there any particular reason behind this change?
I changed it because I needed roaches early to deal with hellions and to do some harass to force him to reveal his tech or do some sort of pressure to force something ^_^.
I've really never done a lot of Nydus just for economy, as in having worms at expos for fast defense. One of the problem i have late game vs t is dealing with drop harass and that could be really helpful...
This is why I do it, to get units to help with drops ^^
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I had to make an account here at TL, just to thank you! I was having a really hard time vs Terran, probably a 90% loss ratio against them. For the first time in months i feel good about my terran MU's and its all thanks to this guide.
I did not believe how much of a difference flanking made, it is unbelievable. I started positioning my army in 3 groups and as soon as he moves out to attack i come at him from all 3 sides. The terran army just melts, it is an awesome feeling
Thanks!!
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do u stop at around 6 roaches? And is it worth getting roach speed if you arent going to make much more after that?
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On August 09 2011 11:30 mango_destroyer wrote: do u stop at around 6 roaches? And is it worth getting roach speed if you arent going to make much more after that?
Well all very situational. If he is not doing reactor hellions, I only make 4 and do a little pressure to see if I can see his tech, force him to show more units then he wants.
No there really isn't a point in getting roach speed for me as I am not making very many. If I see he's going mech I would get it as then I would be going a primarily roach based unit composition.
On August 09 2011 09:50 jumjum wrote: I had to make an account here at TL, just to thank you! I was having a really hard time vs Terran, probably a 90% loss ratio against them. For the first time in months i feel good about my terran MU's and its all thanks to this guide.
I did not believe how much of a difference flanking made, it is unbelievable. I started positioning my army in 3 groups and as soon as he moves out to attack i come at him from all 3 sides. The terran army just melts, it is an awesome feeling
Thanks!!
^_^, glad it helped! I feel, even at pro level play zergs do not flank enough in zvt. I can understand zvp because of forcefields for the most part, but in zvt I feel its very underused and well one day become normal for zergs to be flanking. I don't see it very much but so powerful ^_^.
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thanks for the guide! I think finding a way to punish Terran for getting too greedy, is much needed for the metagame... I watched the three on the korean server, do you have any new ones of T that goes 1 or 2 base mech push and just falls back with hellions they see your roaches? I feel like once Thor's pop out any resources in roaches have been wasted.
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On August 09 2011 13:05 perfectchaoss wrote: thanks for the guide! I think finding a way to punish Terran for getting too greedy, is much needed for the metagame... I watched the three on the korean server, do you have any new ones of T that goes 1 or 2 base mech push and just falls back with hellions they see your roaches? I feel like once Thor's pop out any resources in roaches have been wasted.
nah roach/ling/bane with infestors will crush it, just flank it that is what you want to do to beat it. I might have here we go: http://www.mediafire.com/?i2z7mml2xfexfpt
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Update: I tried this style on ladder today, and I LOVE it. It makes hellion harass so much less effective and allows you to retain map control even against a reactor hellion opening, which lets you drone REALLY hard in the early-mid game.
In the ~5 games I played with this style, I was able to manhandle Terrans who opened with Hellions, keeping them in their base while I drone hard and then crushing their first push with Roach/Baneling. I personally like to get a Lair a little earlier and a 3rd a little later than Blade prescribes here so that I can get Roach and Baneling speed.
I also ran into a Terran on close positions Shattered Temple today, similar deal. Roach opener destroyed Hellion harass, Marine-(3)Tank follow up push was mowed down and I had enough units left over to just go kill him.
The only game I lost using this opener was against a Terran on Antiga Shipyard. I destroyed a big mid game push of his, only to have him turtle on 3 bases till he was maxed. I foolishly tried to attack into his third, got mauled, and couldn't reinforce in time to stop the gigantic Marine/Tank/Thor biomech army before it killed all my bases.
Either way, this guide has iimproved my ZvT a ton. Will continue to experiment with this style. Thanks Blade!
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Just got round to reading all of this and it's very helpful.
Question on flanking, since you are such a fan in ZvT (I am too):
Suppose you are playing ZvT on Tal'darim cross position, and you see Terran pushing out with a medium sized army of MMM/tank off 2 bases. If you have lots of advance warning and all the time you need to set up any kind of flank you want, how would you split your army, and how/where would you choose to engage?
This happened to me a while back when I had a macro lead (I think I was on 3-4 bases to 2) and was near maxed on supply with a larger army - ling/bane/muta with no roaches. I had a ling at the front and held all four towers so I could see it coming the whole way, but wasn't sure how best to engage.
What I did at the time was move lings, banes, mutas all to different hotkeys, sent the lings and mutas off to different parts of the map, then engaged from three different directions. I got my timings wrong and all the lings arrived first, followed by all the mutas, with the banelings last. It wasn't pretty (and the result was predictable). In hindsight I would make the following changes:
- Two groups rather than three (three just means more things that can go wrong for not much gain) - Mutas together with banes (for chasing marines away)
I am not sure whether the flanking group should be just lings or a ling/bane mix (I have also started mixing in roaches after watching Losira's replays). Do you normally just split your ground army down the middle, or do your main/flank groups have different unit composition?
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I use 2 hotkeys to hit the terran from 2 sides. I would try to engage him in the middle while he isn't sieged if possible. That way even if you lose the fight you have more time to get reinforcements. I am normally pretty good about my flanks and making sure they hit at the right time.
I use control group 1 for ling/bane, and control group 2 for another set of ling/bane, then 3 for muta's, 4 for spellcasters or other units that will be used for counter attacks, defend against drops, etc.
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I cant really access the replays, but just some questions from a player with some bad zvt, why are roaches incorporated? Are they a tank, a damage dealer? what is their purpose, can this strategy be executed without flanking? Since its not focused on mutas, should i be going hive faster then usual? ty for feed back if i get it, and thanks for the guide!
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As a Terran player, a recent idea I had was to defend versus mid/late game hellion drops, was to run all your drones into a nydus as soon as the hellions start unloading. I would imagine it would be quite effective, especially if you already have the worms in place to move armies. The drones can't be touched inside the nydus, and there is no way hellions alone could kill it. Is such a thing practical?
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On August 11 2011 12:52 PandaMonk wrote: I cant really access the replays, but just some questions from a player with some bad zvt, why are roaches incorporated? Are they a tank, a damage dealer? what is their purpose, can this strategy be executed without flanking? Since its not focused on mutas, should i be going hive faster then usual? ty for feed back if i get it, and thanks for the guide!
I go heavy muta's just not early early muta's like some zergs. The flanking part is just what i recommend, its not that hard to do and really strong, a lot stronger then attacking in one position!
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I go heavy muta's just not early early muta's like some zergs. The flanking part is just what i recommend, its not that hard to do and really strong, a lot stronger then attacking in one position!
So what is the point of the roaches? To stop hellions right, if the opponent stops hellion productions should i stop roach production or do the roaches serve as a sort of a tank for the, well TANKS, thanks for all the guide.
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Nah I just use the roaches for hellions only. I dont' get upgrades or anything for them. Unless he goes mech roaches are just for the hellion play early game :D
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On August 11 2011 12:31 blade55555 wrote: I use 2 hotkeys to hit the terran from 2 sides. I would try to engage him in the middle while he isn't sieged if possible. That way even if you lose the fight you have more time to get reinforcements. I am normally pretty good about my flanks and making sure they hit at the right time.
I use control group 1 for ling/bane, and control group 2 for another set of ling/bane, then 3 for muta's, 4 for spellcasters or other units that will be used for counter attacks, defend against drops, etc.
Thanks for the reply - always appreciate you taking the time on this stuff. That's pretty much my normal hotkey setup too except for the ling/bane split across 1 and 2 for the flank, so it should be a fairly easy adjustment - I will give it a try.
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I like the early roaches. Never thought of investing in roaches because I felt as though they were too much of an investment. But even getting a few roaches gains me map control and shuts down reactor hellion so it seems like it works. thanks
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I have seen SlayerSGolden do the same build or strategy. The timings on the build order I am not sure about. Works very well but its really hard if you have low APM
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Blade, I just want to take a moment to recognize the enormously generous contribution you have made to the community, through all 3 of your excellent and well written guides, and through your incredibly helpful answering of any and all intelligent questions in these threads. I can say without question that your continued input and helpfulness on these forums will raise the level of discussion and influence all of us in the best way possible.
I greatly look forward to your new and updated versions of the 3 Guide OP's. My own play has been influenced beyond words due to your guidance. You definitely have a knack for breaking it down for us all.
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On August 19 2011 04:43 Flexx wrote: Blade, I just want to take a moment to recognize the enormously generous contribution you have made to the community, through all 3 of your excellent and well written guides, and through your incredibly helpful answering of any and all intelligent questions in these threads. I can say without question that your continued input and helpfulness on these forums will raise the level of discussion and influence all of us in the best way possible.
I greatly look forward to your new and updated versions of the 3 Guide OP's. My own play has been influenced beyond words due to your guidance. You definitely have a knack for breaking it down for us all.
Why thank you <3.
This guide is up to date for the most part but do need to make slight adjustments to the third timing. After having played on korea a lot past month I saw a lot of weaknesses in my third timing, and other things with my build that have become a lot more refined so as I don't die to a 10 minute push or something ^^.
I believe my zvz guide is updated with roach/infestor but well be more in depth in that soon and the zvp guide just needs a little editing as well haven't messed with it to much as I have been changing styles alot but found a style I like (nestea/losira style :D). Thanks again for the kind words ^_^
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Great guide, really helped my zvt a lot, but I do have one question. You say you build roaches for defense (6) then 4 pressure and 2 stay behind to defend, I find that those 2 roaches won't do much if he decides to rerun his 4 helions back into your base, do you build spinecrawlers along with these roaches or do you rely on the roaches alone.
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On August 19 2011 22:50 sgtjimmy wrote: Great guide, really helped my zvt a lot, but I do have one question. You say you build roaches for defense (6) then 4 pressure and 2 stay behind to defend, I find that those 2 roaches won't do much if he decides to rerun his 4 helions back into your base, do you build spinecrawlers along with these roaches or do you rely on the roaches alone.
no I don't build a spine. If he does a run around with his 4 hellions, have queens block ramp and put the drones to your main, or spread your drones out and just have your 2 roaches kill them. He should not do much damage at all if he does this and you react properly in what I just said ^^.
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Hey blade, this is bugrancher, here, anyway can you update this for the influx of mech play. I'm having trouble with mech expecially close positons. Ive tried alot of different unit comps, but I keep having issues with blue flame helions killing workers faster than you can kill them. the main problem is knowing when to take my third and defending it. Mutalisk are useless when scvs repair the thor. I cant gain a macro advantage with constant blueflame harass and when i don't have that macro advantage i cant make roaches in large enough numbers to deal with mech balls. i need to try roaches with drops. Also its hard to scout a Fe into mech play. I'm lost against this style.
edit: You already have a mech section but can you expand a bit on it.
and what happens when they emp your infestors... your strat seems heavily dependent on neural parasite, although i guess its similar to a storm vs feedback situation.
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On August 21 2011 21:52 RedDragon571 wrote: Hey blade, this is bugrancher, here, anyway can you update this for the influx of mech play. I'm having trouble with mech expecially close positons. Ive tried alot of different unit comps, but I keep having issues with blue flame helions killing workers faster than you can kill them. the main problem is knowing when to take my third and defending it. Mutalisk are useless when scvs repair the thor. I cant gain a macro advantage with constant blueflame harass and when i don't have that macro advantage i cant make roaches in large enough numbers to deal with mech balls. i need to try roaches with drops. Also its hard to scout a Fe into mech play. I'm lost against this style.
edit: You already have a mech section but can you expand a bit on it.
and what happens when they emp your infestors... your strat seems heavily dependent on neural parasite, although i guess its similar to a storm vs feedback situation.
Well I never see ghosts when they go back, also if its close positions (i'm guessing you are talking shattered temple?) there is not much you can do in those positions as it takes about 10 seconds to get to your base. Its a free win for your opponent if those are your positions.
I can expand on the mech a little bit, but if you know there are ghosts out spread your infestors and do try to get a flank on that mech ball while using neural parasite.
updated!
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I just have to say thank you for this, I am a new player and by no means high level (High Bronze is literally bottom of the barrel) but these guides have convinced me that I can confidently go fast expo and do well. Since adopting this play style I have basically only lost because of Bronze league mistakes (bad scouting). I may not always play fast enough to execute it perfectly (60APM), but it is still a big help. I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate it.
Also thanks for the replays, a great help.
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Blade, a few months ago in early 2011 there was a popular early Zerg strategy: mass Queens for defense. It was used by Catz with success (seen on a few Day9 episodes), but later I heard little about it. I thought that mass Queens as a early game defense really frees up the Zerg to macro up with drones, as well as giving epic creep spread and great larva inject opportunities.
I am curious about professional opinion regarding this strategy, as I can't find it on Liquipedia. Can it stand up to general builds like Spanishiwa's Ice Fisher build and the speedling expand?
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On October 14 2011 14:20 Setev wrote: Blade, a few months ago in early 2011 there was a popular early Zerg strategy: mass Queens for defense. It was used by Catz with success (seen on a few Day9 episodes), but later I heard little about it. I thought that mass Queens as a early game defense really frees up the Zerg to macro up with drones, as well as giving epic creep spread and great larva inject opportunities.
I am curious about professional opinion regarding this strategy, as I can't find it on Liquipedia. Can it stand up to general builds like Spanishiwa's Ice Fisher build and the speedling expand?
I have never been a big fan of spanishiwa's no gas till 40 suppy build especially vs terran's. On the korean server at least a lot of my zvt's they go for a super fast third and use hellions for map control. With spanishiwa's build you will be super far behind due to strategies like that and even protoss could do the same thing because your tech is delayed a lot and you can't take a third vs a terran with map control due to the drone dying instantly an roaches will be awhile.
Now I do think zergs should make 3-4 queens though (i'm bad for not doing this EVERY game but I am trying to get into the habbit of always having a third queen at least). Just for the creep spread. I have never been a huge fan of 10 queens or something but 3-4 queens is good unless you know he's doing heavy air play like banshee then yeah making more then 4 queens is a good idea.
But yeah 3-4 queens with 2 being for pure creep spread I think is almost a must (again I still need to do that in all mu's except zvz).
That is just my opinion on it anyway .
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OK thanks, 10 Queens on 2 bases might be overdoing it a bit. But why only 3-4 Queens? Why not 6 Queens? I can build them 2 at a time (one from each base) in 3 separate timings. I can do this vs low league and be fine, but what about the higher leagues?
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On October 15 2011 04:54 Setev wrote: OK thanks, 10 Queens on 2 bases might be overdoing it a bit. But why only 3-4 Queens? Why not 6 Queens? I can build them 2 at a time (one from each base) in 3 separate timings. I can do this vs low league and be fine, but what about the higher leagues?
I don't make more then 3-4 because I see no reason to get more then that as I don't find it beneficial unless he's doing some heavy banshee play or heavy air in general early game. I don't know how it fairs at higher leagues I imagine but yeah.
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Could you upload some replays of you owning mech? I try my best vs mech, I do drops and counter attacks, my problem is if I'm on 4 bases and he doesn't bother to turn around takes out 2 bases and usually all my tech and I'm stuck making just lings or roaches a I end up losing by a slim margin, do you still stand that you can rape a fully mech 6-10 tanks, 4 thors and like 10-20 BFH's with just a good surround? another problem for me is if I counter attack they usually seem to get set up in a good position before I can get back to defend, should I just abandon counter attacking and focus on a sick surround?
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On October 15 2011 09:22 xploD69 wrote: Could you upload some replays of you owning mech? I try my best vs mech, I do drops and counter attacks, my problem is if I'm on 4 bases and he doesn't bother to turn around takes out 2 bases and usually all my tech and I'm stuck making just lings or roaches a I end up losing by a slim margin, do you still stand that you can rape a fully mech 6-10 tanks, 4 thors and like 10-20 BFH's with just a good surround? another problem for me is if I counter attack they usually seem to get set up in a good position before I can get back to defend, should I just abandon counter attacking and focus on a sick surround?
Hmm I will look for them I haven't played mech to much so it might be a bit hard but I'll look for them! some of these replays are a little out of date now that infestors suck vs mech but in general what I do is muta/ling/bane/roach and try to get a full surround on his units and have banelings connect to banelings.
So far that has been working awesome for me and been crushing the few mech players I play on korea. I'll try to find some to upload and will bump this when I do .
Even if you don't kill his mech army with a full surround your reinforcements should take his down unless you are just so far behind economically then no but you should easily be able to finish it off with reinforcements.
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Blade, I'm curious to get your opinion on a slight modification to this build I've been using. I follow your opener fairly closely, but transition into an aggressive push. Essentially:
Drone to 28 Warren 2x overlords 8 roaches when warren finishes (you have exactly the right amount of supply/mins/gas) Pressure with 7 roaches, leaving 1 roach and 2 queens as defense
I typically combine the push with an overlord providing high ground vision, while spamming drones at home. So far this has worked pretty well although I'm still figuring out a transition out of it. When i watch my replays I'm usually ahead by ~15 drones and even in army by the end of the push, although I often die a few minutes later (trying to determine why that is). I'm curious if you think this is a viable strat or if it hurts too badly to make that many roaches and pause drone production for that long.
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On November 11 2011 23:47 Shadrak wrote: Blade, I'm curious to get your opinion on a slight modification to this build I've been using. I follow your opener fairly closely, but transition into an aggressive push. Essentially:
Drone to 28 Warren 2x overlords 8 roaches when warren finishes (you have exactly the right amount of supply/mins/gas) Pressure with 7 roaches, leaving 1 roach and 2 queens as defense
I typically combine the push with an overlord providing high ground vision, while spamming drones at home. So far this has worked pretty well although I'm still figuring out a transition out of it. When i watch my replays I'm usually ahead by ~15 drones and even in army by the end of the push, although I often die a few minutes later (trying to determine why that is). I'm curious if you think this is a viable strat or if it hurts too badly to make that many roaches and pause drone production for that long.
I don't like this especially that early as that is very committing. I imagine you are dying because he is doing a marine/tank push and you lose all 8 of your roaches and you are droning so you don't have units? I actually have been doing something a little different with the roach warren also and adding a third queen earlier. I will actually be updating this guide with that very soon
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On November 12 2011 04:08 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 23:47 Shadrak wrote: Blade, I'm curious to get your opinion on a slight modification to this build I've been using. I follow your opener fairly closely, but transition into an aggressive push. Essentially:
Drone to 28 Warren 2x overlords 8 roaches when warren finishes (you have exactly the right amount of supply/mins/gas) Pressure with 7 roaches, leaving 1 roach and 2 queens as defense
I typically combine the push with an overlord providing high ground vision, while spamming drones at home. So far this has worked pretty well although I'm still figuring out a transition out of it. When i watch my replays I'm usually ahead by ~15 drones and even in army by the end of the push, although I often die a few minutes later (trying to determine why that is). I'm curious if you think this is a viable strat or if it hurts too badly to make that many roaches and pause drone production for that long. I don't like this especially that early as that is very committing. I imagine you are dying because he is doing a marine/tank push and you lose all 8 of your roaches and you are droning so you don't have units? I actually have been doing something a little different with the roach warren also and adding a third queen earlier. I will actually be updating this guide with that very soon
Yeah its typically a marine/tank push a few minutes later which hits JUST before my mutas can pop. I guess the delay in econ creates a dangerous timing window. If he delays I usually win the game as my macro is pretty far ahead but if he hits that window its over.
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What do you do against hellions to contain you until he push very fast with tanks/marines with siege ? I usually find myself unable to secure a third with only zerglings and making too much roach with delay my tech to much. Also can you kill the new trend of ghost with ultra/ling/bling/infestors ? Also for the poster before me, if your push is succesfull, you could delay your tech more, get +1 melee/speedling and be safer than ever with ling/roach. 4hatchs (3 expands + 1 macro hatch) to pump lings/roachs (5roachs at most). It crushs any kind of marine/tank push.
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On November 13 2011 04:46 Erasme wrote: What do you do against hellions to contain you until he push very fast with tanks/marines with siege ? I usually find myself unable to secure a third with only zerglings and making too much roach with delay my tech to much. Also can you kill the new trend of ghost with ultra/ling/bling/infestors ? Also for the poster before me, if your push is succesfull, you could delay your tech more, get +1 melee/speedling and be safer than ever with ling/roach. 4hatchs (3 expands + 1 macro hatch) to pump lings/roachs (5roachs at most). It crushs any kind of marine/tank push.
Well I always get roaches so that I have map control away from the roaches so I can take my third faster. Imo roaches are a great early game unit when you don't commit to them like making a ton to try and do damage (defensive is good of course) or getting upgrades for them.
I literally always make a few vs hellion play as again it gets me map control so I can see if they try any sneaky attacks, and I can take a third without having to commit to a million zerglings and waste a lot of larva.
So I can't answer your question because hellions do not contain me, but a normal marine/tank timing comes at about 9:30-10 minutes so you should scout his base with an over seer to see his army and if he will push or not.
And no I have no idea how to fight vs mass ghost play, on the few times I have faced it was vs korean terrans and I have yet to win vs it in a late game scenario so I have no advice but to try to not let him get there xD.
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Hey guys bumping this to let you guys know I updated this guide to the standard play I do now in this match up.
There will be some added replays tomorrow but this is pretty updated in terms of the strategy I do now. The only thing I don't do is defensive nydus worms but am working on making that into my standard play. (hard to get rid of muscle memory so easy to forget to do it -_-).
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