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b_unnies, my experience with this build is that even if I have to pull probes to defend, and losing up to 7 or 8 probes, at the end of the fight I will still be even on harvester count. Unless T destroys my nexus (happens rarely) I will once again be ahead in probe count by 7-8 in a few minutes.
Though I would expect placing the cannon will be safer against any 3rax or 2rax scv all-ins.
About the mid/lategame, I usually place double forges right after the early pressure and then chrono out the double upgrades and so far it seems to do pretty well.
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Can someone post a VOD/replay of this build holding off a 3 rax? I keep hearing "Just place cannons!" or "Go sentries instead of stalkers!" or "Use pulled probes!" but I just get creamed every time I play against a 3 raxer with this build and don't know the optimal way to respond.
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After you complete the build order and you have 5 stalkers out at around 6 minutes how can you possibly get an obs or cannon out in time for the 7ish minute banshee fly in?
At the very best the detection capability comes out after a batch of probes have been killed.
I guess a probe sacrifice at around 5 minutes has to happen to try to infer something from the marine / bunker count?
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On August 05 2011 04:35 b_unnies wrote: With the build you have 5 stalkers at around 5:55~ give or take couple secs.
The build gets you to place 2gateways (wait for 300 mins) at 23 pop.
If you scout at 4:00+ and you saw him with a reactor or a tech lab (which signifies early bio aggression) what if you get a forge at 23 pop at exactly 150 mins, rather than waiting for full 300 minerals for double gateways? By the time the cannon finishes at your natural it would be 5:45~ (10 secs faster than the 5 stalker timing) Wouldnt that make it easier to hold off early aggression without sacrificing as much units or pulling probes?
Ok you wont be able to do any pressure early on and the ability to go kill a terran fast but if he's doing a reactor/tech lab on rax build, he's the one being aggressive and you're the one being defensive.
The forge gives you mid/lategame application as well, extremely early upgrades and helps to defend your natural if he does the 11-12 minute 4 medivac 2 prong attack on your main and natural
But scouting that reactor or tech lab doesn't tell you much, if anything at all. Scouting a reactor can mean he's going 1-1-1 and getting a forge won't be of much use against 1 base siege tanks + raven push. Scouting a tech lab can also easily mean 1rax FE. Having to invest in an early forge and cannon against an FE will more or less negate any econ advantages you get for using this build. (I'. assuming that you will be cutting a lot of probes since you still need to get ~3 gateways up because a single cannon and a gateway still won't be enough to stop that 2rax push).
Moreover it's not easy to actually scout for that tech lab or reactor add-on once he starts unit production. You can't exactly rely on that 4:00 scouting of add-ons because some games you might catch a glimpse of the add-on (if he walls off with his rax or mismicros his units), but in other games, he should be able to deny any scouting.
Based on my experience, you need to leave a stalker or a probe at his ramp to watch for the 2rax + scv push and chrono your gates, pull probes and micro for your life.
For later pushes though, like the 2ghost timing push, i'm pretty sure you can sentry contain him in at his ramp in time. He'll have to tech to starport which will take a while since he already invested in ghosts. You should then have more than enough time to secure a lead strong enough to fend off any attacks he does after getting medivacs out.
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It is very hard to defend 3rax MM with this build. I get obliterated everytime as @Snaphoo said. Similar thing.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
On August 05 2011 04:00 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 02:45 EliteReplay wrote:On August 04 2011 22:44 Alejandrisha wrote: ughhhhh so much confusion
OK from now on this thread will be 100% about HUKKING. IE 9 py 13 gate 14 gas 16 py 17 core 20 nex 20 stalker 22 gate gate 22 stalker 24 probe 25 proxy pylon
If there is enough of a stir about HuK's other 1gate fe (the 2 gas) either we'll have to make a new thread or just effin blog it lol The build is the same as a 3gate expo, but instead of putting down 2more gates the nexus right? but this nexus its a little bit later than the 20nexus. No it cuts more probes. This is the build straight from the OP. 3gate expo is an entirely different animal
i saw the replay Squirtle vs puma on Meta and the build its exactly the same as a 3gate, instead of putting down the 2extra gates at 27food, he putted down the nexus.
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this is only viable against a no gas expand, and if so ill be greedy, 20 nexus 21gate gate 21 stalker 23 guys back on gas, 26 forward pylon, 4stalker aggression
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arright i think we're done here
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On August 08 2011 03:06 sickoota wrote: SC unfortunately absolutely demolishes it with a reactor first two rax, which is why noone really does this build anymore...
I dont think its hard to hold that at all with good micro.
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Thanks for putting the time into writing everything down about this build Alejandrisha.
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Naniwa does this build versus Thorzain's no gas CC first on Metalopolis, and takes a huge lead with 3Gate pressure, unfortunately going up to 6Gates and overextending (DT would have been so much nicer, at least he won the series ).
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On August 06 2011 00:00 Xahhk wrote: After you complete the build order and you have 5 stalkers out at around 6 minutes how can you possibly get an obs or cannon out in time for the 7ish minute banshee fly in?
At the very best the detection capability comes out after a batch of probes have been killed.
I guess a probe sacrifice at around 5 minutes has to happen to try to infer something from the marine / bunker count?
vs a build that gets out a banshee w/ cloak that fast, you can just pressure him a lot with your 5 stalkers and most likely win/force a lot of SCV pulls (which delays the banshee w/ cloak).
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
this build is good in large rush distance maps and Gasless FE from terran.
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On August 06 2011 00:00 Xahhk wrote: After you complete the build order and you have 5 stalkers out at around 6 minutes how can you possibly get an obs or cannon out in time for the 7ish minute banshee fly in?
At the very best the detection capability comes out after a batch of probes have been killed.
I guess a probe sacrifice at around 5 minutes has to happen to try to infer something from the marine / bunker count?
pressure as soon as you get units. any terran build that rushes for cloaked banshee only has like a few marines (a bunker at best), so a build that arrives at his doorstep that same time that a 4 gate does will probably kill him (or at least do enough damage to figure out what he's doing so that you can respond.
i would not really expect optimal results on any 2 player maps or 4 player maps with short rush distances.
other than that the only thing i can suggest is practice your stalker micro.
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Hasu held it off perfectly fine and showed why this build is so powerful. His issue was how he followed up after the build, not the opening itself.
SC caught Hasu powering off of this build. Pretty much any build or opening loses if you don't build units.
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On July 25 2011 12:11 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 11:26 deadmau wrote: Does anyone know Huk's modified buildorder of this build? I've come across multiple mentions of his abandoning of this style for a safer style, but I can't find the replays. If anyone knows the specific build that'd be great. A stream view would be cool, as I'm curious as to his follow-up HuK says that this build is too dangerous against a very well executed 12/16 reactor/tech lab which is very trendy on the korean server, so he no longer does it. His new build is as follows 9 py 13 gate 14 gas 15 py 17 core 18 gas He gets a stalker first and cb's it. You can put a CB on the WG as well but it's not too necessary. He pokes with the first stalker but cannot lose it. He expands at 30/34, with probes cut at 30 food. With sentries coming out constantly, he gets 2 gates after the nexus and then a pylon before resuming probe production. WG finishes with 3 or 4 sentries (he gets 3 and probes up to 34 food if no pressure is coming). He gets 3 sentries at WG finish and adds sentries/stalkers from there. To hold pressure, he takes the best possible position with his units on the low ground once WG is done and just uses FF to defend (no zealots) The build is pretty open ended from here. I've seen him go robo if the terran is being sketchy but more typically forge + twilight for blink stalkers and armor upgrades for map control and to try to take an upgrade edge for later in the game. Maybe he will come in here and tell me what I got wrong EDIT: I still do the 20 nexus a lot because even though it should lose to a very crisp 12/16 r/t, that build is not too popular on NA and the players that do it reactively don't do a great job of executing it. I know that's a bad way to approach the game but I find it too fun to drop altogether
Where do the chronos go? On sentries? Do you keep atleast 3 CBs on warpgate? CB on probes?
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What to do vs Marine Tank Banshee push? Is there a way to break the front or something cause as soon as they move out you're dead..
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On August 09 2011 03:29 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 12:11 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 25 2011 11:26 deadmau wrote: Does anyone know Huk's modified buildorder of this build? I've come across multiple mentions of his abandoning of this style for a safer style, but I can't find the replays. If anyone knows the specific build that'd be great. A stream view would be cool, as I'm curious as to his follow-up HuK says that this build is too dangerous against a very well executed 12/16 reactor/tech lab which is very trendy on the korean server, so he no longer does it. His new build is as follows 9 py 13 gate 14 gas 15 py 17 core 18 gas He gets a stalker first and cb's it. You can put a CB on the WG as well but it's not too necessary. He pokes with the first stalker but cannot lose it. He expands at 30/34, with probes cut at 30 food. With sentries coming out constantly, he gets 2 gates after the nexus and then a pylon before resuming probe production. WG finishes with 3 or 4 sentries (he gets 3 and probes up to 34 food if no pressure is coming). He gets 3 sentries at WG finish and adds sentries/stalkers from there. To hold pressure, he takes the best possible position with his units on the low ground once WG is done and just uses FF to defend (no zealots) The build is pretty open ended from here. I've seen him go robo if the terran is being sketchy but more typically forge + twilight for blink stalkers and armor upgrades for map control and to try to take an upgrade edge for later in the game. Maybe he will come in here and tell me what I got wrong EDIT: I still do the 20 nexus a lot because even though it should lose to a very crisp 12/16 r/t, that build is not too popular on NA and the players that do it reactively don't do a great job of executing it. I know that's a bad way to approach the game but I find it too fun to drop altogether Where do the chronos go? On sentries? Do you keep atleast 3 CBs on warpgate? CB on probes?
What do you mean? When going stalker/sentry/sentry the basic idea of the build (getting nexus while chrono-boosting warpgate-tech) doesn't change. The difference is, you get the 2nd gas, don't pull probes off gas and can still afford the early nexus and the subsequent warpgates by investing in sentries instead of mineral-heavy units. It's actually very similar to the one gate FE that people are doing in PvZ nowadays.
Nevertheless, since meta-game seems to be shifting back to sentries, I found that doing the original build works great (again) on larger maps. Especially against no gas expands. Unless the bunker-placement is 100% perfect I can either run behind the natural or straight into the main and cut off all reinforcements and/or wreak havoc onto scvs. The underlying idea of the early attack - trading zealots for pulled scvs - has never stopped working. See Nani vs Thorzain game 2 blizz eu inv
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