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Warning: This is not a valid build. It is very risky and scoutable!
Update: Replays are up.
The BO´s name is: Panda´s evil strike. Kekeke^^
This is a BO that beats most of protoss openings and most of hatch first zerg openings, and is very fun to play. You will have 15 drones, one queen, +1 attack, speed and 38 Lings at 6:11. (+ A ton of minerals. You can expand right when you attack.) Also, it has a big giveaway.
To introduce myself, I am Panda from GTo7, currently rank 3 Dia with 860 points, 50ish bonus pool and 61 wins. This build is not theorycrafting, it was crafted with zerglingblood, if I am allowed to say so.
The build is great for lower league play and a good cheese/semiallin for higher leagues, if 6pool is to easy for you:D That being said, there is one certain build from Z that´s auto-loss for you, and a competent Protoss will defend your push, gaining small advantage. With competent I mean high dia, that´s the point where Protoss start to utilize their forcefields the right way.
Be warned, I am mixing up vP and vZ often, because this build is good for both Matchups.
The fundamentals of this build:
+ Show Spoiler +1. +1 Speedlings are awesome in the early game 2. Most Protoss and Zerg consider early banelings when they scout early pool + early gas – some Protoss players will even leave your base, just having scouted your 11 pool. 3. Your opponement needs a strong army early... If he chooses to expand early or to tech something crazy, he lost in 80% of the cases. 4. There are two things that hardcounter this build, one per Matchup: Banelings and Forge Expand. 5. Banelings → You loose. Type GG, smile and try to find out if standard play is really that bad 6. Forge Expand → If there is one cannon, you can go for the kill. You have chances. If the Protoss is competent, like high-dia, he will forcefield his buildings and fend of your attack. If there are two cannons: No way, that is too much. Just draw back and try to make the best of the situation... Possible transitions: See below. 7. Don´t waste your army. If the Toss is to mighty, draw back. He shouldn´t move out, 38 +1 Speedlings are a nice army. Drones, drones, drones. And then, fast!, army. The Toss will push, they always do. 8. The Evochamber is a sure giveaway.
The BO:
+ Show Spoiler +
10 Extractor Trick 11 Overlord 11 Spawning Pool 12 Extractor 14 Move Drone To Gas 14 Move Drone To Gas 14 Move Drone To Gas 14 Queen 16 Evolution Chamber 18 Melee Attacks 1 18 Overlord 18 Spawn Larvae 18 Overlord 18 Zergling 19 Zergling 20 Metabolic Boost From there on, build Zerglings. Don´t forget to build the Overlord at 23 supply! Also, scout with your lings.
When to use?:
+ Show Spoiler + In lower leagues you can do it against any toss, I would guess. In higher leagues you can do it when any of this options are fulfilled:
Either: You play on a big map. Toss will likely go on a expand build, Zerg very very often too. With big map I mean Tel`Darim Altar for example.
Or/and: You know your opponent will do a 15 hatch. Since 15 Hatch is a viable build, many will do it as standard and won´t change their BO in a BOx, x > 1. This is tricky, since you could also do early banelings and your opponent has to prepare for it.
Also, it´s logic on which maps you don´t want to do this build. Example: You play on a small map against Z. He will maybe go 14/14, and that´s auto-loose. Meta for example is a small map.
I have so much minerals left, what to do? AKA Transition
+ Show Spoiler + Well, you can expand right when your attack starts. Start getting queens and hatches. Also get many drones, since you have mineraIs and larva. When you didn´t do real damage, you really have to regain economic advantage. I am sry that i can´t say more about it because my games with this BO end really fast.
Crazy Variation, featuring: Same army -2 Lings, delayed for 20 seconds, 3 hatches
+ Show Spoiler +10 Overlord 10 Extractor Trick 15 Spawning Pool 16 Extractor 15 Overlord 16 Move Drone To Gas 16 Queen 19 Move Drone To Gas 19 Hatchery 18 Evolution Chamber 17 Move Drone To Gas 19 Zergling 20 Melee Attacks 1 20 Hatchery 19 Zergling 20 Zergling 21 Metabolic Boost 21 Overlord Lings from there on Not tested yet, lol Might turn into a crazy macro game is the enemy toss can deff.
Replays:
Pls ignore my BM and bad play:/ I try to avoid the one and improve the other.
ZvZ
+ Show Spoiler +
ZvP
+ Show Spoiler +
You can also share your replays with Panda´s Evil Strike;D
I hope you enjoy this little BO.
Regards, Panda
PS.: Criticism appreciated!:D English is not my native tongue btw
Edit: Thanks to communism for correction, you will have 15 drones when attacking.
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38 +1 speedlings at 6:11, seriously? I have maybe 7 gateway units at that point. :/ Fucking OP zerg.
User was temp banned from strategy forum for this post.
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I don't think this is cheese, but I do have a very specific question: Is the +1 really that effective at that point of the game against a zealot wall-off with warpgate tech finished and 3 gates?
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This feels like it can be insanely powerful against other zergs, unless they go really early banelings or some form of early roach rush but are holding their roaches on the ramp. Tried it once against the computer to get the build down and even though I butchered it, a very hard computer doesn't stand a chance in hell. Seems like against zerg, you can check how the attack is going and if you feel you can KO them immediately, just keep building lings and reinforce.
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Although i think that this build can be held quite cost effeciently with enough sentries, I have used a very similar build that I think is much stronger. It gives your 30+1 speedlings at the same timing, but you have 2 hatches.
Heres the build if you are interested : + Show Spoiler + 15 Pool 15 Gas 15 Hatch 15 Evo Chamber 16 Melee Attack +1 16 Overlord 18 Queen 20 Queen 22 Metabolic Boost 27 Overlord 27 Overlord 28++ Zerglings until you want to stop making them.
Obviously your build and mine both have advantages and disadvantages, which ill briefly lay out:
Yours : + Show Spoiler + gets early pool (safer), hits a little bit harder, but you have no drones 6:00 mins into the game, and 1 hatchery, so you have to do some very critical damage with this attack to not be massively behind Note : you have 15 drones when you attack
Mine: + Show Spoiler + Gets early enough pool to alter build and deal with any aggression, but also gets fast hatch. Main weakness lies in any kind of attack that is going to occur before 6:00. Although your attack comes with more lings initially, mine has 2 hatches, so i can reinforce with lings if i so desire much faster.( or start droning like crazy) Note : I have 23 drones when i attack
I feel like another notable effect is the what the opponent thinks, first of all he is going to scout everything that is going on with both of our bulids because we dont make any lings until right before we need them, but my bulid looks a little more standard to the untrained eye, because of the early expand, although with either build if they are able to scout the upgrading buildings at the right times they could deduce exactly what is going on. I feel like an opponent will prepare a better defense kinda blindly against your bulid whereas mine might make them feel inclined to try to expand. The attacks both have the same timing, and the only real thing that will F this up is getting pylon blocked, but in that case you can always try to take a hidden expo which in the case of this rush may also help.
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Why the hell do you waste people's time with this. a zealot a wall and 8 sentries kills this SO hard.
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the point of this build is not to hit a 1 base, but to deny the expo by P, thats why the 6:xx timing is so crucial, bc its when sentry expands typically try to move out and expand
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On May 17 2011 05:27 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote: Why the hell do you waste people's time with this. a zealot a wall and 8 sentries kills this SO hard.
Im not sure if things have changed since the patch, but there is NO way that prepatch you could get 8 sentries by 6:15... no way unless you are an insane computer
you can have 5 max
this timing can break 5 sentries 1 zealot if you dont have perfect micro
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@ tehemperorer: It works. It seems counterintuitive, but it works. If you think about it, +1 Meele means, when we take the building armor in consideration, a 20% faster killing time. The wallin-buildings go down incredibly fast. The way the Protoss can counter this is to forcefield correctly. If they only stand around, their buildings will fall and you have free entry. I will have one or two replays adressing this situation
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@ Communism: Thanks for sharing your build and your opinions:D I think you are right, but since I am a more agressive player, I like attacking harder But you explained the differences well, ty for that. Seems like there is a path of many different +1/Speed styles:D
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Canada13372 Posts
On May 17 2011 05:29 Communism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 05:27 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote: Why the hell do you waste people's time with this. a zealot a wall and 8 sentries kills this SO hard. Im not sure if things have changed since the patch, but there is NO way that prepatch you could get 8 sentries by 6:15... no way unless you are an insane computer you can have 5 max this timing can break 5 sentries 1 zealot if you dont have perfect micro
It doesnt need to be that perfect, forcefield the ramp is easy to buy time. If I have to I will forcefield the top of ramp AND bottom of ramp which traps a ton of speedlings for 30 seconds and my sentries can shoot at them for free. Sentries and stalkers both have similar DPs against Zerglings but Sentries dont overkill so in a defensive position where I dont need to micro anything other than placing 2 forcefields im pretty safe and this build wont do much to be honest.
And ill definitely be getting sentries if I dont scout an expansion by about 20 food and if I dont see a roach warren in your main or an overlord waiting by my ramp to get high ground vision I wont be worried about anything but speedlings so ill get only sentries and a zealot to help keep the choke blocked.
I dont think its that great a build either the expansion based one or the not expansion based one. It doesnt really hit a timing that I'm worried about as protoss since I will have my nexus not done and cancel it if I went for a fast expo at that time.
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@ ZeromuS: As I said, a competent Protoss will hold this off with forcefields, but you will have no expansion, and can´t push out that well. Also, if you trap a ton of speedlings, they will attack your buildings, which go down very fast. Correct forcefielding in this situation is doable, but tricky.
What a shame we are on different servers :/ I would offer you some games using this tactic, if you are would not be high master (Top Ten).
Edit: misread your post, sry. Yeah, trapping lings there is tricky. Surprise is a big element of that tactic:D
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On May 17 2011 05:29 Communism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 05:27 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote: Why the hell do you waste people's time with this. a zealot a wall and 8 sentries kills this SO hard. Im not sure if things have changed since the patch, but there is NO way that prepatch you could get 8 sentries by 6:15... no way unless you are an insane computer you can have 5 max this timing can break 5 sentries 1 zealot if you dont have perfect micro
you can't even break a protoss with zergling.
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ionlyplayPROtoss, which league are you adressing? Atleast you can break Protoss with Zergling on high dia / low - master level, i don´t know if it works on higher skill levels.
Edit: As said, Replays will be coming tomorrow
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Good thing you do this with 38 lings, 36 is too few imo.
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On May 17 2011 05:45 GTo7_Panda wrote: ionlyplayPROtoss, which league are you adressing? Atleast you can break Protoss with Zergling on high dia / low - master level, i don´t know if it works on higher skill levels.
Edit: As said, Replays will be coming tomorrow I would like to believe every league can hold ling all in, as for what league I'm in im about 1250 masters and everyone i face is GM.
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well I'm toss and I can tell you, the proper response to this from a sentry expand is to cancel the nexus and hold at the ramp (assuming cannon not up yet). You may or may not need to sac the low ground pylon, but that and the nexus cancel will be your only losses. Warp in another round or two of zealot/sentry and rebuild the nexus, toss is ahead of the OP (Original Post, not overpowered) zerg. 'Communism' has a much better build because after delaying the nexus he will be roughly equal to the protoss, and he can do something totally different if he scouts in time to see FFE.
EDIT: It's funny, I was toying with an idea to get +1 attack and an archon just after 6:00... it's a pretty lolbad build, but boy would it work vs this ^^
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should get +1 armor zerg, much better than+1 attack. Even against protoss it might be a bit better, considering forcefields.
This build has pretty much the same opener as 3 roach speedling rush (vs. protoss build), just obviously evo chamber instead of RW.
personally I think it's pretty dumb to just mass lings vs a protoss since they have a tendency to go zealot-sentry which will kill huge numbers of lings, and then still have a wall up to defend even if they've lost their standing army.
Hell, by 6 minutes protoss will have enough energy in sentries to abandon an expansion and hold their ramp long enough to get enough sentries to hold the ramp indefinitely (if they didn't already have enough sentries, that is).
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I dunno, this seems like it's a zvz build... I play P at 1k~ masters... see this on ladder every once and a while, and have yet to lose to it.. I'm not a particularly great player but it seems gimmicky to me =/ Especially on tal'darim, why would you think this would work when they should have a full wall and 2 cannons by then? x.x
May be viable to punish a 3gate SE if you catch the sentries out of position but a competent protoss is incredibly careful with their units when they're pushing out to take their nat.
seems like a very potent build in zvz but in zvp i dont like it =/ Just my thoughts, sorry if I'm too critical ;x
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A DT build would destroy this build. At 6:11 you would see the protoss expand with sentry and a handfull of zealot. If the protoss sacs a probe to scout and sees a crazy amount of lings (which he should do after seeing an early pool) the correct response would be to just stay in his base, and laugh at your huge ling ball while within the next minute or so 3 dark templar show up at your base and wreak havoc.
Fortunately for you, you have a evo chamber, and after losing a handfull of drones and quite possibly a hatchery you may be able to stay in the game by pulling your 38 lings back to base.
Unfortunately for you, when you return to the protoss base he now has dropped his expo, and has his forge finishing, a huge ecnomonic advantage, and dark templar and / or archon with zealots and sentry to completely deny any pressure you may be wanting to apply.
Dark templar are a hard counter to this build if I have ever seen one.
P.S. Even if you keep your lings and deny the dark templars, you have just given written invitation to the protoss to 6 gate you shortly after his expo finishes. You now also have to invest in overseers and spore crawlers while you are already at a HUGE economic disadvantage building lings instead of drones that early in game. 6 gate with a couple archon and potentially blink stalker / robo follow up will walk over your lings / roaches / spines without a hiccup. GG
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How do you handle any form of wallin or good forcefield usage with only lings? I would expect even a 3gate expo would get their nexus up, albeit probably slightly late, despite your huge pile of zerglings.
I could see this working in zvz, though wouldn't +1 carapace be theoretically awesome if you could get it that early, so you aren't so fragile to banelings? Thing is, your zerg opponent should be aware and able to prepare if you're massing lings off of 1base, and I have a feeling you are at risk of dying to their more standard speedling baneling timings because your own speed is considerably late, and you don't have banelings.
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I actually think this could break a forge FE in lower levels. I doubt many low levels do forge FE but, there will not be sentries or enough out in time to FF the lings out. If they are smart they will completely wall off the natural choke, but if its on xel naga or other maps where its dumb to Forge FE anyways, this build will be strong. Otherwise, I think this build can be easily scouted and stopped, (maybe not in ZvZ but hell I dont even play zerg)
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this sounds interesting and I will test it on maps with wide open expansions. On maps like Shakuras I doubt it will work very often due to the small choke at the natural.
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Can you explain why this is auto-lose against 14/14? I would assume that with the amount of lings and +1, even if you can't outright kill him, you can delay his expansion while safely taking your own by going in with your lings and scare him. Once your hatch is down and you have droned a bit, keep building lings until you see him take his expo, transitioning into roach if you see any banelings. While he might be slighty ahead in drones, since you're keeping him on one base, he'll just be oversaturated until his hatch completes and as long as your completes a fair bit before his, you should be in the lead.
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On May 17 2011 06:24 Tobberoth wrote: Can you explain why this is auto-lose against 14/14? I would assume that with the amount of lings and +1, even if you can't outright kill him, you can delay his expansion while safely taking your own by going in with your lings and scare him. Once your hatch is down and you have droned a bit, keep building lings until you see him take his expo, transitioning into roach if you see any banelings. While he might be slighty ahead in drones, since you're keeping him on one base, he'll just be oversaturated until his hatch completes and as long as your completes a fair bit before his, you should be in the lead. 14/14 has a better economy than you, and they get speed before you, so you will lose ALL MAP PRESENCE (or all your zerglings, your choice) because you can't run away from a fight. Also you're getting +1 attacks while he's getting banelings, and trying to micro lings against banelings without any banelings of your own is a terrifying thing to try and do. Unlike hatch first, which handles the speedling timing by having a better economy to fall back on and more larva that they can spend pumping lings while they wait for their own timings to make them safe again, you have no extra econ to outproduce lings with.
Sure, you'll win games at low level because players don't have good macro while also microing ling battles, but that doesn't make it a good build.
Also, taldarim altar isn't a FE map in ZVZ - wide chokes means you NEED speedlings, you can't just get roaches out and secure your expo + ramp.
Maps where you spawn in close air positions (even on shakuras top-top or bottom-bottom positions) the other zerg will be aware that you're doing an early pool because your second overlord doesn't come out (well, it comes out super late. Late enough that if they know to look for that tell, they'll drop their pool instantly.) He shouldn't be doing hatch first once he sees that. Other maps, a prospective hatch first zerg should be drone scouting early, because 7-9 pools are even more dangerous than this build. I'm not sure of the timing, but on a medium-large map, it looks like a hatch first build could hold your initial lings off in time, and have either banelings or roach-blocks easily by the time your speed and +1 finish.
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I'd be willing to play you as either zerg or protoss. Standard play crushes this. Banelings as zerg and cancelling the nexus and holding the ramp for protoss. Masters level zerg, but only platinum-diamond level protoss.
Mithrandir.898
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@ sylverfyre: I saw many zergs going for speedling expand on taldarim altar, which is autoloss against my build:D
As I said, Blings are the absolute counter to this build.
Also, this is not a good build. It is not solid or valid, but it is fun and it works at a surprisingly high percentage, even at highdia and lowmaster. But I don´t think this is good on very high level, I would agree with you^^ but for the 98% of players out there... It might be a fun way to play their swarm.
@ Mithrandir: No, I won´t play against you if your standard includes banelings at any point:p My build relies on surprise and a high possibility of a oppponent´s FE. No question that blings own this, see my OP.
I would play against you if you would play as Protoss, correct forcefielding shouldn´t be a problem. I have time tomorrow:D
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Yeah the question I asked was because of my PvZ DT build that can easily be switched... If I see the single base Zerg and early evo chamber I will simply make a temp archives instead of DShrine and go for a single archon and templar/cannon tech... Push out the lings with archon/zeal then expand and place cannons. I can get an archon and about 4 zeals at around 6 minutes, then expand safely and load up on sentries, or pull from gas and load on zeals. Interesting Panda thanks for posting this
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Canada13372 Posts
On May 17 2011 06:42 tehemperorer wrote: Yeah the question I asked was because of my PvZ DT build that can easily be switched... If I see the single base Zerg and early evo chamber I will simply make a temp archives instead of DShrine and go for a single archon and templar/cannon tech... Push out the lings with archon/zeal then expand and place cannons. I can get an archon and about 4 zeals at around 6 minutes, then expand safely and load up on sentries, or pull from gas and load on zeals. Interesting Panda thanks for posting this
just to be fair I think that using gas to tech to an archon that fast is bad since any cannons you get up won't survive against lings too long and the mineral cost of the zealots and gateways delays your expo. better to just use dts to block a gap in a wall and take map control if you open Templar into arching at all off one base
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On May 17 2011 05:29 Communism wrote: this timing can break 5 sentries 1 zealot if you dont have perfect micro By perfect micro do you mean the ability to F-click every 15 seconds?
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I use this build in 2v2 and 3v3, and it works really well. It's slightly different, though, because I go 14 extractor then 14 pool, which I prefer because I get more drones, and it's harder to scout out (although they might be puzzled by the early evo).
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Gonna wait till replays are added before judging anything for certain.
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Seeing how I am practicing pure zerglings for my zerg in order to better understand this unit, this BO is yet another weapon up my sleeve. If I can give internetz to anyone, it has to be you.
Panda evil strike, nemesis of the 4gate!
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On May 17 2011 06:42 GTo7_Panda wrote: @ sylverfyre: I saw many zergs going for speedling expand on taldarim altar, which is autoloss against my build:D
As I said, Blings are the absolute counter to this build.
Also, this is not a good build. It is not solid or valid, but it is fun and it works at a surprisingly high percentage, even at highdia and lowmaster. But I don´t think this is good on very high level, I would agree with you^^ but for the 98% of players out there... It might be a fun way to play their swarm.
@ Mithrandir: No, I won´t play against you if your standard includes banelings at any point:p My build relies on surprise and a high possibility of a oppponent´s FE. No question that blings own this, see my OP.
I would play against you if you would play as Protoss, correct forcefielding shouldn´t be a problem. I have time tomorrow:D
I will play you without banelings then. Roaches also destroy this build. And any protoss opening destroys this as well.
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I've been doing a +1 melee build and it's SO strong against practically every protoss opening. I don't do it against terran because they can get hellions, but even Zealots don't trade well against zerglings with +1.
Lings with 0 upgrades will trade 1 zealot for about 2 1/2 lings, with +1 you trade 1 zealot for 1 ling, a very cost efficient trade, the build works well if you add in banelings as well.
Your build doesn't seem very efficient though and is more like an all-in. My build that I've been using exclusively against protoss also gets +1 and speed at around 6 minutes.
14 gas 15 pool 15 evo 15 overlord @100 gas, +1 15 queen 17, 18 lings 19 hatch @100 gas speed, remove 2 drones from gas. That 1 drone on gas can do a lot for you, he can either get you +1 armor, a baneling nest or a lair depending on what you need.
it's a pretty safe build, but reveals a lot of information because their initial scouting probe will see the evo drop during the pool building. The build is flexible, you can do all-ins with ling/bane against 3 gate sentry expand or even roach/ling pressure is extremely strong. The build also transitions well into economy, I'll usually stick with my 4 initial lings while droning very heavily. Once the +1 and speed kicks in, I will make a round of lings for map control and continue droning. You don't need to all-in as the ling only production allows you to stick to minerals only after getting +1 and speed, so you can easily take a 3rd hatch or drone strongly.
It doesn't seem very smart to get lings THEN expand, its much better to play reactive and economy based otherwise you will be WAY behind.
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Couldn't imagine this build doing so hot on a map like Backwater Gulch, where the choke to the natural is so narrow, and most protoss simcity to prevent run-bys. On maps with wide open naturals (Xel Naga, Delta Quadrant) this build could do some work. This build is pretty good for a zerg to have in their arsenal but hope I don't see it on the ladder ^.^
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It seems like a build that relies on your opponent having bad control, between sentries zealots and cannons any good toss will have no problem holding this.
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On May 17 2011 05:27 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote: Why the hell do you waste people's time with this. a zealot a wall and 8 sentries kills this SO hard. lol 8 Sentries at 6:15, thats about when you take your expansion with ~5 Sentries and a Zealot
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Wow this sounds really fun, thank you for sharing!
The "Crazy" variation sounds even more fun
@SC2TheDroid
It's called scouting, you should be able to figure out whether or not the Protoss is getting DTs. After some information and deduction, or after none at all, you should put down a spore crawler obviously. Also, how does he get down his expo and 6 gate if you have 38 lings against DTs? The DTs can't defend everything. They can sit in the mineral line sure but with good micro you can snipe some probes and harass the Nexus and other buildings on the low ground, considering you can see where the DTs are and a sufficient number of DTs would mean he is using a shit ton of gas. Archons can be scary but by then you should have already droned up and have better tech coming. Blink is way too far in the midgame... a Toss isn't going to be able to get that with enough stalkers in time before the Zerg can drone back up. Also his 6 gate is going to be seriously delayed if he went for early DT.
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I think its just to keep the p in his base and his build gets kinda crappy then. you can expand twice in the tim ei think and just buy time drone hardly at home and youll have a good tranistion wirth your gas mining you can also go straight to lair and transition into air, but allways scout there are some options. He could go dt, he could at 2 more gateways and kill you or stargate pressure, just scout :D
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during this whole build, zerg can scout toss with ov, but toss can't scout zerg. zerg can transition to something else if toss is being careful. 100% banking on the 38 zergling attack is too inflexible. just use it as a potentiality and a threat and transition to something else if opportunity allows.
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Why do you build two overlords at 18?
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You're indeed going to delay the nexus for ~2 warp cycles.. but the cost for that is 19 potential drones early game. Is it worth it ? I don't think so.
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@ Mithrandir: Okay, roaches are okay. Will be on today.
Overall I find it great that you guys think about the build and evolve it further:D Adressing the people who suggest P to do something that requieres early gas, such as Archons, DT´s or air. I don´t think this is viable, because you really need sentries to deffend at least 2-3. IMO forge expand is the best defense If you are on EU and Protoss dia+, I offer you too play against me and try out different things .
Regards
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This all-inish build is scoutable from a Protoss perspective. If I don't see an expansion being thrown down any time soon, I expect a heavy one base attack so I just throw a forge in my base with my 3gate opening and just turtle. If Protoss doesn't know these timings, then yes I can see how this build will punish them
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Please remember to post some replays for us would love to see this in action thanks
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Syria7637 Posts
So wouldn't the Protoss see that you're not expanding and prepare to defend an all-in (get Sentries and open up a 4gate)? I can't see this working if it's scouted, because you're going to have a HUGE worker deficit, a late expansion, and slow Lair tech moving into the midgame. Protoss can easily fight it off, push into an expansion, and then transition into a nice little deathball. I especially can't see how this will avoid losing to air tech immediately (provided the Protoss lays down FFs correctly). You just won't have the Queens to defend your expansion and will lose your main shortly after.
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On May 17 2011 19:00 Acritter wrote: So wouldn't the Protoss see that you're not expanding and prepare to defend an all-in (get Sentries and open up a 4gate)? I can't see this working if it's scouted, because you're going to have a HUGE worker deficit, a late expansion, and slow Lair tech moving into the midgame. Protoss can easily fight it off, push into an expansion, and then transition into a nice little deathball. I especially can't see how this will avoid losing to air tech immediately (provided the Protoss lays down FFs correctly). You just won't have the Queens to defend your expansion and will lose your main shortly after.
Yea, that's what I was thinking. I don't see the incentive for Protoss to expand if he sees Zerg one basing and making 38 speedlings before starting his natural. You can stay on your ramp and endless forcefield with 6 sentries, and begin a sim city + expansion shortly after.
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i find this a little bit too risky for my opinion, there are too much stuff that'll kill you when using this build order.
gj nonetheless, will probably be used lots on the ladder now!
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another build from sc buildorder gui or evolution chamber. very risky tough since you have no transition with good economy.
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hmmm in ZvZ this might work against less then stellar players... good players will have the ramp blocked easily by then with roaches and / or queens with a spine behind you might pick off the expo if they went early on it... Plus 1 is great vs roaches but once your opponent gets the ball if you dont transition into Roach as well its gg.decent build for map control but if he went one base speedling baneling and you went 1 base +1 he has a huge advantage.
vP it could be decent against a FE or even a 4 gate since +1 lings rip apart gateway units but on most maps the sentries and zealots should clean this up. might work against a FFE but if it doesnt you are light years behind eco wise and stargate / de expands will clean this up without a problem and take early game map control.
my 2 cents im 900 + masters right now
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On May 17 2011 05:10 GTo7_Panda wrote:Update: Replays are up.The BO´s name is: Panda´s evil strike. Kekeke^^ This is a BO that beats most of protoss openings and most of hatch first zerg openings, and is very fun to play. You will have 15 drones, one queen, +1 attack, speed and 38 Lings at 6:11. (+ A ton of minerals. You can expand right when you attack.) Also, it has a big giveaway. To introduce myself, I am Panda from GTo7, currently rank 3 Dia with 860 points, 50ish bonus pool and 61 wins. This build is not theorycrafting, it was crafted with zerglingblood, if I am allowed to say so. The build is great for lower league play and a good cheese/semiallin for higher leagues, if 6pool is to easy for you:D That being said, there is one certain build from Z that´s auto-loss for you, and a competent Protoss will defend your push, gaining small advantage. With competent I mean high dia, that´s the point where Protoss start to utilize their forcefields the right way. Be warned, I am mixing up vP and vZ often, because this build is good for both Matchups. The fundamentals of this build:+ Show Spoiler +1. +1 Speedlings are awesome in the early game 2. Most Protoss and Zerg consider early banelings when they scout early pool + early gas – some Protoss players will even leave your base, just having scouted your 11 pool. 3. Your opponement needs a strong army early... If he chooses to expand early or to tech something crazy, he lost in 80% of the cases. 4. There are two things that hardcounter this build, one per Matchup: Banelings and Forge Expand. 5. Banelings → You loose. Type GG, smile and try to find out if standard play is really that bad 6. Forge Expand → If there is one cannon, you can go for the kill. You have chances. If the Protoss is competent, like high-dia, he will forcefield his buildings and fend of your attack. If there are two cannons: No way, that is too much. Just draw back and try to make the best of the situation... Possible transitions: See below. 7. Don´t waste your army. If the Toss is to mighty, draw back. He shouldn´t move out, 38 +1 Speedlings are a nice army. Drones, drones, drones. And then, fast!, army. The Toss will push, they always do. 8. The Evochamber is a sure giveaway. The BO:+ Show Spoiler +
10 Extractor Trick 11 Overlord 11 Spawning Pool 12 Extractor 14 Move Drone To Gas 14 Move Drone To Gas 14 Move Drone To Gas 14 Queen 16 Evolution Chamber 18 Melee Attacks 1 18 Overlord 18 Spawn Larvae 18 Overlord 18 Zergling 19 Zergling 20 Metabolic Boost From there on, build Zerglings. Don´t forget to build the Overlord at 23 supply! Also, scout with your lings.
When to use?: + Show Spoiler + In lower leagues you can do it against any toss, I would guess. In higher leagues you can do it when any of this options are fulfilled:
Either: You play on a big map. Toss will likely go on a expand build, Zerg very very often too. With big map I mean Tel`Darim Altar for example.
Or/and: You know your opponent will do a 15 hatch. Since 15 Hatch is a viable build, many will do it as standard and won´t change their BO in a BOx, x > 1. This is tricky, since you could also do early banelings and your opponent has to prepare for it.
Also, it´s logic on which maps you don´t want to do this build. Example: You play on a small map against Z. He will maybe go 14/14, and that´s auto-loose. Meta for example is a small map.
I have so much minerals left, what to do? AKA Transition+ Show Spoiler + Well, you can expand right when your attack starts. Start getting queens and hatches. Also get many drones, since you have mineraIs and larva. When you didn´t do real damage, you really have to regain economic advantage. I am sry that i can´t say more about it because my games with this BO end really fast.
Crazy Variation, featuring: Same army -2 Lings, delayed for 20 seconds, 3 hatches+ Show Spoiler +10 Overlord 10 Extractor Trick 15 Spawning Pool 16 Extractor 15 Overlord 16 Move Drone To Gas 16 Queen 19 Move Drone To Gas 19 Hatchery 18 Evolution Chamber 17 Move Drone To Gas 19 Zergling 20 Melee Attacks 1 20 Hatchery 19 Zergling 20 Zergling 21 Metabolic Boost 21 Overlord Lings from there on Not tested yet, lol Might turn into a crazy macro game is the enemy toss can deff. Replays:Pls ignore my BM and bad play:/ I try to avoid the one and improve the other. ZvZ + Show Spoiler +ZvP + Show Spoiler +You can also share your replays with Panda´s Evil Strike;D I hope you enjoy this little BO. Regards, Panda PS.: Criticism appreciated!:D English is not my native tongue btw Edit: Thanks to communism for correction, you will have 15 drones when attacking.
So wait....let me get this right....
The point of this build is to keep the protoss on one base, meanwhile you are also only on one base and have far less drones than he does probes.
Is that correct?
The proper counter to this would be for the protoss to realize you are allin and just stay on one base and drop a 4(h gateway...get a few more units out and then crush you utterly because you don't have the economy to defend ytourself once your attack is stopped with 2 force fields. The protoss then laughs and all is well.
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It is nearly correct. Sometimes it will end the game outright, sometimes you have to draw back and have an disadvantage. This happens against better Protosses, wherefore I play standard again vs Toss
In lower leagues this might work well and is fun to play.
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it seems like a variation of the 26 speedling aggression
In ZvZ a valid build i think. But i in case of banelings this would be awefull. (and blings are not that uncommon)
In ZvP it fails to much everything (maybe not against a P who is not walling of) And a build that assumes that P sucks at placing FF is a bad build.
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The 2 hatch variant is much more powerful. You expand early, however you do not saturate it. After planting the hatch, mass speedlings and ASAP deny protoss expansion. After that slowly build up drones at the expansion while increasing the number of speedlings. As he is on one base and you are on two, you'll have a better mining efficiency even when having less or the same amount of drones. This is much more efficient than attacking his wall. It's hard to break a ling/bling contain with sentries only. Additionally you fight in the open and not the ramp as you do not attack, just deny expo.
Caution: Most protoss will go DT or air in response.
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I used to use a similar build in my zvz but stopped once I hit plat as there were too many common counters. Banelings destroy this. Early speedling aggression will catch you before +1 and speed is up and you will die or be severely hurt. Early roaches that wall off his ramp will stop it if they get 6+ roaches. If they only get 4 or 5 you can just beat on them till one/ two roaches die then get the surround. It's a powerful strat but easy to scout and easily countered by most early aggression zvz builds.
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It's pretty moot now that sentries come out faster, especially with the common 3gate Sentry FE that Protoss are using atm. I've held off crap like this before, it's extremely easy to defend against.By the time that many lings arrive at my base I'll have my expo up and walled off with sentries and zealots to boot, unless it's a wide open natural in which case I have my Nexus at around 30ish food and walled off sim city style.
I can't speak for Zergs because I'm not as familiar with the race, but I'm thinking you could play a Spanishiwa type build, get lots of queens and wall off with spine crawlers/queens.. Mass transfusion and the like. Not sure though.
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On May 17 2011 18:12 Nyast wrote: You're indeed going to delay the nexus for ~2 warp cycles.. but the cost for that is 19 potential drones early game. Is it worth it ? I don't think so.
Well said, honestly. All other factors aside if the protoss sees 11 pool, which he obviously would, and hides probe to scout and sees no expansion, I think the protoss would definetely delay his expansion untill he figures out whats going on.
I mentioned DT earlier because its an easy way to scout, and the archons are great vs lings, and DT can be a great defensive unit vs roach push.
If you don't do damage with this, you are very far behind the protoss. I don't think this build is horrible, but any high level protoss should know to scout carefully before taking his expo after seeing an 11 pool, and if he sees a bunch of lings he can easily compensate before taking his expo.
In my opinion a roach / ling mix is harder to deal with.
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10 Extractor Trick 11 Overlord 11 Spawning Pool 12 Extractor 14 Move Drone To Gas 14 Move Drone To Gas 14 Move Drone To Gas 14 Queen 16 Evolution Chamber 18 Melee Attacks 1 18 Overlord 18 Spawn Larvae 18 Overlord 18 Zergling 19 Zergling 20 Metabolic Boost 20 Zergling 21 Move Drone To Minerals 21 Spawn Larvae 21 Zergling 22 Zergling 23 Overlord 23 Zergling 24 Zergling 25 Move Drone To Minerals 25 Zergling 26 Zergling 27 Zergling 28 Zergling 29 Spawn Larvae 29 Zergling 30 Move Drone To Gas 30 Zergling 31 Zergling 32 Zergling 33 Zergling 34 Zergling 35 Zergling 36 Zergling
Last Zergling completed at 5:54 ideal.
5:54.52: 223M 141G Income: 555M 114G Buildings: 1 Hatchery 1 Extractor 1 Spawning Pool 1 Evolution Chamber Units: 16 Drone 5 Overlord 1 Queen 38 Zergling Upgrades: Metabolic Boost Melee Attacks 1
A faster build with faster initial Zerglings but slower economy would be:
10 Extractor Trick 11 Overlord 11 Spawning Pool 11 Extractor 14 Move Drone To Gas 14 Move Drone To Gas 14 Move Drone To Gas 14 Evolution Chamber 13 Queen 15 Zergling 16 Melee Attacks 1 16 Zergling 17 Overlord 17 Zergling 18 Zergling 19 Spawn Larvae 19 Move Drone To Minerals 19 Metabolic Boost 19 Move Drone To Minerals 19 Move Drone To Minerals 19 Zergling 20 Zergling 21 Zergling 22 Zergling 23 Zergling 24 Zergling 25 Overlord 25 Zergling 26 Spawn Larvae 26 Zergling 27 Zergling 28 Zergling 29 Zergling 30 Zergling 31 Zergling 32 Zergling 33 Zergling
5:48.92: 170M 42G Income: 426M 114G Buildings: 1 Hatchery 1 Extractor 1 Spawning Pool 1 Evolution Chamber Units: 13 Drone 4 Overlord 1 Queen 38 Zergling Upgrades: Metabolic Boost Melee Attacks 1
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On May 17 2011 05:29 Communism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 05:27 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote: Why the hell do you waste people's time with this. a zealot a wall and 8 sentries kills this SO hard. Im not sure if things have changed since the patch, but there is NO way that prepatch you could get 8 sentries by 6:15... no way unless you are an insane computer you can have 5 max this timing can break 5 sentries 1 zealot if you dont have perfect micro
30 probes, 1 zealot, 8 sentries at 6:15, with 500 in the bank to put down a pylon/nexus. Also I'm not sure why you'd say "Well I have no idea about the new patch but..." no one plays 1.3.2 now.
The +1 attack timing is really interesting vs. zerg who opens 15hatch, but because of the difficulty in denying scouting against the initial lings, I'm curious how you plan to hide that super-early evolution chamber.
Against Protoss this is very easy to stop except perhaps at low levels, but against zerg, even though it's a low level strategy, there could be some merit hidden in here a quick +1 attack. The issue is that because you're hitting so late, you could wall with evo chamber/roaches or something similar at the nat, and all those speedlings will just get laughed to death.
I personally feel like any build that gets an evo chamber and an upgrade before units is destined for failure because of the gaping hole you leave yourself vulnerable to attack. If your opponent does any kind of early ling aggression, you're dead. If he dos any kind of roach play, your attack will fail, and if he just drones and spines up for some goofy 2-base muta, your attack is likely to also do minimal damage.
edit:
On May 17 2011 06:42 GTo7_Panda wrote: @ sylverfyre: I saw many zergs going for speedling expand on taldarim altar, which is autoloss against my build:D
As I said, Blings are the absolute counter to this build.
Also, this is not a good build. It is not solid or valid, but it is fun and it works at a surprisingly high percentage, even at highdia and lowmaster. But I don´t think this is good on very high level, I would agree with you^^ but for the 98% of players out there... It might be a fun way to play their swarm.
@ Mithrandir: No, I won´t play against you if your standard includes banelings at any point:p My build relies on surprise and a high possibility of a oppponent´s FE. No question that blings own this, see my OP.
I would play against you if you would play as Protoss, correct forcefielding shouldn´t be a problem. I have time tomorrow:D
If everyone posted a shit build that worked only up to gold level, this forum would be flooded with garbage threads like this.
Plenty of people have explained to you why this is an awful build, and some of them have been nice about it.
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On May 18 2011 08:31 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 05:29 Communism wrote:On May 17 2011 05:27 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote: Why the hell do you waste people's time with this. a zealot a wall and 8 sentries kills this SO hard. Im not sure if things have changed since the patch, but there is NO way that prepatch you could get 8 sentries by 6:15... no way unless you are an insane computer you can have 5 max this timing can break 5 sentries 1 zealot if you dont have perfect micro 30 probes, 1 zealot, 8 sentries at 6:15, with 500 in the bank to put down a pylon/nexus. Also I'm not sure why you'd say "Well I have no idea about the new patch but..." no one plays 1.3.2 now. The +1 attack timing is really interesting vs. zerg who opens 15hatch, but because of the difficulty in denying scouting against the initial lings, I'm curious how you plan to hide that super-early evolution chamber. Against Protoss this is very easy to stop except perhaps at low levels, but against zerg, even though it's a low level strategy, there could be some merit hidden in here a quick +1 attack. The issue is that because you're hitting so late, you could wall with evo chamber/roaches or something similar at the nat, and all those speedlings will just get laughed to death. I personally feel like any build that gets an evo chamber and an upgrade before units is destined for failure because of the gaping hole you leave yourself vulnerable to attack. If your opponent does any kind of early ling aggression, you're dead. If he dos any kind of roach play, your attack will fail, and if he just drones and spines up for some goofy 2-base muta, your attack is likely to also do minimal damage.
I agree. Although interesting, the timings are all wrong. It hits so late that it loses to any sort of tech (roaches/banelings) or even spine crawlers with queens blocking the ramp. The only thing it beats is roaches that are out of position or pure speedlings.
And, no sane zerg would still be 100% speedlings by the time this attack hits.
In all, I think it is a horrible all-in and I'm trying to play the OP to show why it doesn't work. But he is on Europe and I'm on NA so I don't think I'll be able to play him.
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If everyone posted a shit build that worked only up to gold level, this forum would be flooded with garbage threads like this.
Plenty of people have explained to you why this is an awful build, and some of them have been nice about it.
I never doubt this is an awfull build. Did I? The thing is, it works, atleast at diamond/low master level, and so I shared it. If it helps anyone having more fun or winning some games, BAM!, the goal of the thread is reached. You are simply wrong when you say it works only up to gold level, excuse me. Evidence is against you.
And IMO this is not a horrible Allin. Yeah, it´s horrible against active scouting enemys, but when they make mistakes, you gain the element of surprise. And there are much mistakes on the Ladder (again, speaking for EU, highdia - low master), so posting this BO is not useless in my opinion.
Let´s sum it up:
It´s an all-in that is bad/autloose against scouting/competent enemys. It punishes enemys who follow the metagame without scouting. IMO it´s fun to play. And it works above gold...
Will tag it as Funbuild, so that the unlikely following discussion has the right attitude.
Thank you guys for discussing and thinking about the build, hf playing it yourself or pwning it on ladder or whatever
Regards, Panda
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A friend of mine and I tried this build with a standard four gate for shits and giggles. We got placed masters.
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On May 18 2011 17:42 GTo7_Panda wrote: It´s an all-in that is bad/autloose against scouting/competent enemys.
I'll have to give this a shot when I play 3v3 and 4v4 with my brothers. I don't see this working out very well in 1v1 (I'm high gold) since most of my opponents can scout an opening build and counter, but no one really scouts in 3v3 and 4v4. Maybe it would even work in 2v2? I'll give it a shot if my partner starts playing sc2 again...
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On May 17 2011 05:25 tehemperorer wrote: I don't think this is cheese, but I do have a very specific question: Is the +1 really that effective at that point of the game against a zealot wall-off with warpgate tech finished and 3 gates?
Most protoss expand between 6:10 and 6:40. The OP said you have enough minerals when you strike to expand... the zerg may not really be economically ahead if they deny the expo but it's at least something.
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This could maybe punish super fast expansions, but like you said it's very scoutable. Also, I feel that terran walls or protoss ff's can completely negate this build.
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Back when I played Zerg, I used a very similar variation of this build for team games. Absolutely perfect for 2v2s and 3v3s, as +1 lings beat unupgraded lings QUITE heavily, to the point where opposing players are usually left baffled as to what hit them.
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What about a bit less lings, hide most but start an expo, cancel, ling up and then move out? with some less lings, it'll be less of an all-in and more of early push expand, and likely not be expected given the cancelled hatch. I think it'd be interesting to tweak the build to fit this. i've always been fascinated by toss expo cancel/4gate surprises and wanted something like it for zerg (just not so all in. i like macro games)
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This might sound silly but if you'r saying this is an all-in, why not bring drones as well?
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this will beat alot of early roach builds, its my go to build ZvZ
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This build is bad, and I will tell you why. [ sorry OP ]
Let's start with ZvZ:
Your BO is 11 overpool into starting +1 before you have a single zergling out.
Obviously, your build is non-standard. There are three standard builds in ZvZ.
1.) 9 pool (or early pool) Your build beats this by virtue of the opening.
2.) 14/14 Your build is going to autolose to this. My first 2 lings will run up your ramp, see that you're not mining gas, see that you have an evo chamber down, and see that you have no additional tech, and only 1 hatch. This is the most obvious 1 base ling all-in in the history of Starcraft. I will throw down a baneling nest and a-move to victory.
3.) Hatch first Your build is going to autolose here to for the same reason. A PROPER hatch first scouts around 9 supply. With the exception of the largest maps (Tal'Darim Altar) I will always scout your base before I start my hatch. When I get there, I will see 11 overpool. This tells me to plant my pool and start my gas - essentially turning my build into 14/14, which we've already established as auto-loss.
If you run into someone who wants to go hatch first without scouting, you will win by virtue of the build order.
Now: ZvP
Ask yourself: What is the standard response to early pool builds?
Because 11 overpool is going to look a lot like 9 pool when Toss scouts it. If he's trying to forge expand, he'll fully wall his natural, and make 2-4 cannons.
If he's trying to 3 gate expand, or do something similar, he will likely play extra safe, taking care to make extra sentries, and he might even go so far as to add a forge to his wall and throw a cannon down at the top of his ramp.
In both of these cases, you've just auto-lost.
Standard ZvP is, once again, three-fold.
1.) 14/14 speedling expand. This expands around 21... This is, quite literally, the latest expansion you can hope to take if you don't deal some sort of early damage to the Potoss economy.
2.) 14 pool 16 hatch. More economical than 14/14, this build gets an earlier expansion, but gives up some map control.
3.) hatch first. No explanation necessary.
You could possibly make a case for early pool, but I feel like its more of a gimmick than a standard.
At any rate, all these builds have one thing in common: Expanding early and often.
If you don't plan on expanding until you have 38 lings, 15 drones, and a queen, that puts you at 36 supply when your natural starts.
Early lings or not, Protoss will be able to scout that you haven't taken your hatchery at a normal time. When Toss scouts that you haven't expanded, that literally means you have one choice: all-in.
He's going to prepare for a roach all-in.
A roach all-in is stronger than this 38 ling stuff because it's capable of breaking the Toss ramp so long as it has an overlord to spot.
In other words, its harder to defend the roach all-in.
In other words, if Toss prepares to defend the roach all-in, and you hit him with something weaker, you're screwed.
Now, all this having been said, I know that you're going to come back with
"But this is a great, fun build at the lower levels"
To this, I say: "Great. Enjoy it. But when it stops working, I hope you're ready to relearn the game, because you will have falsely inflated your rank to a point that you will not be capable of beating players who are good enough to sniff this out and shut it down"
TLDR:
Don't waste your time practicing a bad build. Learn to play correctly, and, later, after you establish some understanding of the game, start experimenting with fun timings and weird all-ins.
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I agree that this build isn't optimal, but it has the right ideas. Putting on early pressure and getting fast Speed and +1 is very strong early game, but you can't realistically do just that and expect lings to do all the work by themselves. Supplementing this with T1.5 units may make it stronger, maybe utilizing the +1 with Banelings for a bust early on, or Roaches, which Zerg usually goes for anyway. And +1 Lings with Roaches is darn hard for a Protoss to stop, and it basically denies an expansion on any non-macro map.
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I have doubts, generally 2 good forcefields will get ton of lings killed by 5 sentries (probably 10) which in time you can double forcefield again and kill another 10, then its 18 +1 zerglings vs a zealot and 5 sentries with (1?) more forcefield to block the back so you only take shield damage on the building and possibly take 10 more zerglings. That leaves the zerg with 8 + lings, 15 drones, 3 very undefended hatches and a pissed off protoss who will probably cheese something spite your efforts to break his front wall.
In ZvZ banelings nullify this 100%, even with good micro its very scoutable, you just have to notice he only has 15 drones. Build a ton of spines and banelings. Get an evo and get +1 armour roaches. Hell if you see him 1 base you just turtle up and do a 1 base infestor, they should be done in time to deal with this attack (well at least the roach wall should be able to hold until then.
I have a suggestion for this build, if you get 38 +1 lings against zerg, if you scout a turtling zerg you should cut 2 lings to get another gas and get 24 banelings worth of gas and a baneling nest to break down his hatchery (its very effective).
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Canada13372 Posts
man why would you necro this old thread :/ it died because it wasn't viable >.<
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Wow... Don´t necro guys:D Things have changed, and so did I and my attitude about this BO^^
As I said above:
This is not a viable build. If you are 100% sure your opponement will do a hatch first, you can use this build. If you are playing against a 3 Gate expand and he moves out, you can sometimes catch him on the lowground. But all this is not viable, so pls don´t discuss this build anymore. Except you found a way how to use it in a safe way, against some high level player, with some replays.
Pls don´t tell me to learn standard Zerg, because I betrayed Zerg and switched to Toss, and i will have some one year break from active playing. Anyway, thank you guys for contribution and good advice, especially Mr.Bitter!
To avoid some further postings that may aim in this direction, I learnt a few things: 1. Testing builds is important. 2. A good build handles every behaviour, ignoring skill and league of the enemy. (Kinda obvious;D) 3. I wouldn´t post a such a post in the strategy forums anymore, and if, then i would tag it with the [Q]-Tag. 4. SC2 is still fun, this build aswell, but this build doesn´t belong into this forum.
Pls read the above and gauge if adding new stuff is necessary. Thx Guys!
Huge thanks to Mr.Bitter again, he carves out in a great detailed way why you shouldn´t use my build!
Ps:
A friend of mine and I tried this build with a standard four gate for shits and giggles. We got placed masters.
I designed this build on a 2v2 Weekend, we even crushed a team with a GM on it and he flamed us:D In 2v2 this build may some place, but don´t try it versus ZT. When they go for early helions + early slings, you are dead.
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"the protoss will push, they always do" lol. us silly protoss putting on pressure, we're so fucking imba. We have the opportunity to turtle to max annnnd put on pressure. Too damn many options
i know you were probably not insinuating that, but it still sounds pretty funny.
on topic tho, i personally get really annoyed by early ling pressure, but advice for any protoss going up against this is to not move your army down the ramp completely if you know they have speed. A cancelled nexus isn't all that awful
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On July 13 2011 03:20 MrBitter wrote:
TLDR:
Don't waste your time practicing a bad build. Learn to play correctly, and, later, after you establish some understanding of the game, start experimenting with fun timings and weird all-ins. so true. my friend is in masters from 7pooling and baneling busting. i feel bad for him if he ever tries to play macro games
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@ SxYSpAz: Since I switched to Toss, I enjoy all these Options I have:D Starcraft feels so good... Now I am the pressuring guy that denies 3rd bases with a smile on his protoss face=)
on topic: Yeah, just forcefield correctly and you are fine. In theory the Zerg could drone up since you can´t move out rightaway, but I feel that a good toss will convert his economic lead into army, takes his second, and then game should be over since Zerg is behind in Tech. If he wasn´t, he had to cut drones.
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