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Wow lotta compilation you put into this.. (Psst perhaps put spoiler tags?)
As a toss player myself, I love seeing how pros Forge FE, but I'm always hesitant to do it myself I've been allined/busted way too many times
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thats awesome work there!! I would just like the win % of each individual opening and such, would provide us some more information!
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i'm amazed at the amount of work and effort you put into this post.. good job
But i'm a little confused at these stats
5 - 15 nexus 15 forge openings (23.8% of total)
Runner up: 3 - 17 nexus 17 forge openings (14.3% of total)
7 forge -> nexus openings
does that mean 7 builds went forge into nexus opening? if that is the case, how come it wasn't the most popular build since there were 7 builds like that compared to only 5 builds that went 15 nexus 15 forge??
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this is an awesome compilation of information! very interested into reading all of this over and putting some thought into it. thanks again.
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Damn...what have the Moderators done O.O
great post though jeez that's some sick stuff. I'm a terran and I wish someone would would do this for Terran FE builds.
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I'm curious if any other zerg has attempted to do the lair spinecrawler rush that nestea did vs anypro when the toss does a forge expand and has the nexus as a part of their wall. It seems like a free win to me if you opened speedling expand but no one does it so i must be missing something
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On July 03 2011 15:22 drolkrad wrote:i'm amazed at the amount of work and effort you put into this post.. good job But i'm a little confused at these stats 5 - 15 nexus 15 forge openings (23.8% of total) Runner up: 3 - 17 nexus 17 forge openings (14.3% of total) 7 forge -> nexus openings does that mean 7 builds went forge into nexus opening? if that is the case, how come it wasn't the most popular build since there were 7 builds like that compared to only 5 builds that went 15 nexus 15 forge??
Yes it means 7 builds built a forge and then a nexus as the very next building. The difference is that 15 nexus 15 forge is an exact opening where as forge -> nexus just means any forge followed by a nexus including 13 forge 17 nexus, 16 forge 16 nexus, etc.
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love what you're trying to do here. some of the pictures are mixed up though so you should probably double check that :D
spoiler tags might be helpful.
also if you are feeling industrious one of these days you can say what builds the enemies were doing so that this thread is about how to react with a FFE along with teaching building placement.
good luck!
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this is pretty awesome, thanks for compiling it for us! This should make it easier for a lot of use to look at what works best as far as executing a forge first or reacting to a forge first
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On July 03 2011 15:24 Spiders wrote: I'm curious if any other zerg has attempted to do the lair spinecrawler rush that nestea did vs anypro when the toss does a forge expand and has the nexus as a part of their wall. It seems like a free win to me if you opened speedling expand but no one does it so i must be missing something
I think that was a one time build that won't be seen again in pro level play.
The spinecrawler rush starts lair before ling speed is done with proper scouting you can see the lair morphing and no drones mining gas which makes the build pretty obvious if you know what to look for. From my experience it's a simple response to add a second gateway and make a few stalkers to snipe the morphing spines/overlords while using my cannons as cover from lings.
Anypro did a very slowly teching build that game and failed at scouting by not mineral walking his probes.
From an old thread on the subject: [link]
On May 09 2011 07:28 Jaeger wrote: Anypro's build techs too slowly vs what he scouted. He saw a 14gas/13pool which finishes speed around 5:05 and gets its first larva inject around 4:40.
He went for nexus forge pylon cannon cannon and then a gateway and his 2nd cannon finished at 4:26. There was no reason for him to get that second cannon before his gateway.
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Very very nice post. I always wonder whats the FFE builds and Fast Nexus from the pros? Is there any comparisons to which build is probably the best? It seems that 15 15 is very common by the pros and other Forge Nexus is mainly based on maps and spawn locations.
Cheers.
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Holy shit, thanks for this...
information overload!
Too many variations, too many details!
Haha
Good Job, thanks for all the pictures it must have taken a long time!
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On July 03 2011 15:24 Spiders wrote: I'm curious if any other zerg has attempted to do the lair spinecrawler rush that nestea did vs anypro when the toss does a forge expand and has the nexus as a part of their wall. It seems like a free win to me if you opened speedling expand but no one does it so i must be missing something
well, that spine crawler rush is only viable in maps that require nexus as a part of wall off...
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On July 03 2011 15:34 eery1 wrote: love what you're trying to do here. some of the pictures are mixed up though so you should probably double check that :D
spoiler tags might be helpful.
also if you are feeling industrious one of these days you can say what builds the enemies were doing so that this thread is about how to react with a FFE along with teaching building placement.
good luck!
Oh wow, apparently copying links out of the image upload page is finicky. If you right-click a link and click copy and your mouse ends up over another link afterwards it copies the other link instead of the one you right clicked on. Thanks for noticing fixed them all I think.
Spoiler tags where?
Ya there are obviously other things that affect the openings, like what midgame protoss is going into and what/when he scouts. The vast majority of the games were just 14gas/14pool or similar to it speedling expands.
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Hmm so which one is the most effective do you guys think?
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you're amazingly helpful in every game you play, thanks!
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can you pull up the win percentage as well
nice post Jaeger
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You should include whether the opening was successful, whether the toss won the game or not (I guess you would have to spoiler it for some people). I know that the opening isn't necessarily the most important factor in winning a game, but it can make a huge difference so knowing which styles are associated with the most success would be cool. I guess I could look it up anyway, but I don't play toss so I'm not really that concerned, lol.
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Spoiler tags where?
put one before the games then put each individual game in its own spoiler, ideally.
so
Games start spoiler Game 1: start spoiler game info end spoiler Game 2 start spoiler game info end spoiler ... end spoiler
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wow, this is great. Thanks for putting in the effort for everyone
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On July 03 2011 15:24 Spiders wrote: I'm curious if any other zerg has attempted to do the lair spinecrawler rush that nestea did vs anypro when the toss does a forge expand and has the nexus as a part of their wall. It seems like a free win to me if you opened speedling expand but no one does it so i must be missing something
It's not a free when but it can get you ahead...but definetly NOT a free win. It is easily stopped however by a few zealots since zlots>lings ofc. Also fast lair like that is uncommon vs forge FE as it'll set you far behind if it does no damage.
Usually getting a 3rd is safest.
But taking risks=high reward
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On July 03 2011 16:05 khanofmongols wrote:put one before the games then put each individual game in its own spoiler, ideally. so Games start spoiler Game 1: start spoiler game info end spoiler Game 2 start spoiler game info end spoiler ... end spoiler
Yeah i spent a good part of the post scrollling d own seeing how long it is.
Most people like seeing the entire OP by scrolling through it to see whatt they're getting into
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On July 03 2011 16:18 Zedders wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 16:05 khanofmongols wrote:Spoiler tags where? put one before the games then put each individual game in its own spoiler, ideally. so Games start spoiler Game 1: start spoiler game info end spoiler Game 2 start spoiler game info end spoiler ... end spoiler Yeah i spent a good part of the post scrollling d own seeing how long it is. Most people like seeing the entire OP by scrolling through it to see whatt they're getting into
Better?
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Wow thank you so much, I can finally refer to the most solid Forge expand! As to questions asked, it depends on what you scout, and if you do not scout them in time, it is advised to go Forge first. However, progamers usually assume their opponent is not going to do any 6-12 pool.
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i wouldnt recommend opening like this on ladder because zergs like to 6 pool on tal darim/ shakuras, etc Alot. and sometimes your probe wont always scout it first and then ull be shit out of luck.
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I don't think it so much that the koreans haver different ways of forge fast expanding, but rather the ordering of the structures depends on what they scout.
For example forge at 17 if they scout zerg first and gas before pool opening. Cannon before gate if close position and early pool, etc...
Good compilation, definitely usefull for everyone who wishes to study this PvZ style.
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Actually I would be interested in Zerg responses and success rates ...
Feel like doing the ZvP version ? :p
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On July 03 2011 17:34 CuHz wrote: i wouldnt recommend opening like this on ladder because zergs like to 6 pool on tal darim/ shakuras, etc Alot. and sometimes your probe wont always scout it first and then ull be shit out of luck.
Forge first hard-counters a 6-pool.
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impressive OP, thanks a lot.
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On July 03 2011 22:20 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 17:34 CuHz wrote: i wouldnt recommend opening like this on ladder because zergs like to 6 pool on tal darim/ shakuras, etc Alot. and sometimes your probe wont always scout it first and then ull be shit out of luck. Forge first hard-counters a 6-pool. If anything 6-pool on tal'darim is a counter to FFE
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If you don't scout the zerg first positions on tal'darim you should send another probe out to scout, make sure to path through the watchtowers too to see if the lings are coming. If you don't find the zerg early build the forge at 12/13. If you scout a 6/7/8 pool, build a pylon at mineral line and a cannon, you will lose the forge and pylon at nat but will not outright lose the game and should be up probes::drones quite a bit.
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On July 03 2011 22:20 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 17:34 CuHz wrote: i wouldnt recommend opening like this on ladder because zergs like to 6 pool on tal darim/ shakuras, etc Alot. and sometimes your probe wont always scout it first and then ull be shit out of luck. Forge first hard-counters a 6-pool.
No it's not. 6pool is a counter to forge FE. You really can't get your wall off before the 6 lings come because you're not walling at your main ramp but at your nat expo. And even if you could wall, your buildings would fall because your cannon is going to take too long. What I've seen most people do (eg. Kiwikaki vs Moman on Terminus in the NASL Playoffs Game 1) is build a pylon in-base and a cannon in mineral line, sac the Forge and first pylon and just play from a disadvantage.
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Huk held a 6 pool with FFE on Taldarim, but I think it has to be a 12 forge and not a 14 or 15 forge. You need to scout early as well or you can guess with Zerg's scout too. Cut probe production as fast as possible get a cannon up as fast as possible too and wall with 2 gates.
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if you are greedy then nexus -> forge if you want to play safe the forge -> nexus if you are going to scout him last positions then you may want to start a pylon in your main just in case if he is 6 pooling so forge->pylon->nexus
and thats it
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nice work here. Ive always struggled with this build on tal darim and shakuras not knowing whats best in what order. It would be interesting to know why each player did what they did. Obviously some of them are just done blindly, but i wonder upon scouting what did they see that dictated their build
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i read the post 4 times searching for data on win %. Still nice job but don't understand why that was cut
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Canada13372 Posts
On July 04 2011 04:46 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 22:20 iChau wrote:On July 03 2011 17:34 CuHz wrote: i wouldnt recommend opening like this on ladder because zergs like to 6 pool on tal darim/ shakuras, etc Alot. and sometimes your probe wont always scout it first and then ull be shit out of luck. Forge first hard-counters a 6-pool. No it's not. 6pool is a counter to forge FE. You really can't get your wall off before the 6 lings come because you're not walling at your main ramp but at your nat expo. And even if you could wall, your buildings would fall because your cannon is going to take too long. What I've seen most people do (eg. Kiwikaki vs Moman on Terminus in the NASL Playoffs Game 1) is build a pylon in-base and a cannon in mineral line, sac the Forge and first pylon and just play from a disadvantage.
Its not from disadvantage at all. You will have way more probes because the lings couldn't do enough damage thanks to that cannon fighting with your probes. They have no queen and six drones, there is no way they can outproduce you while you decide to build stuff and keep a probe advantage.
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I'm surprised there were quite a few done on metalopolis and xel naga caverns. Personally its probably too risky on the ladder, but when you know your playing against a macro zerg its safe. Great post and good pics of wall ins!
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I...I love you so much Jaeger. I was just about to start searching through TLopen/MLG/DH replays to search for this kind of info. Huge thanks for this thread
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This is an amazing post i love you
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2 season ago they would have been baneling busted, dunno why zerg have stopped to do that.
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On July 04 2011 05:43 phisku wrote: 2 season ago they would have been baneling busted, dunno why zerg have stopped to do that.
Because Sentries make an invincible wall??
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On July 04 2011 05:45 MonkSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 05:43 phisku wrote: 2 season ago they would have been baneling busted, dunno why zerg have stopped to do that. Because Sentries make an invincible wall?? yea of course they do why didnt i know that? oh, cos its not true....? yea you can FF but on a map like tal darim its gonna take 4? maybe 5 FF to cover all buildings. With this build you dont normally have out alot of sentries early on. So you might be able to get one round of FF off if youre lucky. But he'll just wait till the FF wear off and then come at you....
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On July 04 2011 05:27 Patriot.dlk wrote: i read the post 4 times searching for data on win %. Still nice job but don't understand why that was cut
Because after ~8 hours of listening to loud ass stacked gom ads the thought of going through all them again to see who won made me sick?
Also because the openings rarely reflected on the outcome of the games, there were only a few bust attempts by zergs and I think they all failed, unless you count the choya game where he had to sac his forge&pylon but still won.
The only one that springs to mind was the Killer vs BBoongBBoong where he lost to a ling runby but the solution to that is trivial and would've put him way ahead.
Build this pylon on reaction to fully wall the bottom of your ramp when you see the runby attempt and then cancel it after you clean up the lings.
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On July 04 2011 05:45 MonkSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 05:43 phisku wrote: 2 season ago they would have been baneling busted, dunno why zerg have stopped to do that. Because Sentries make an invincible wall??
right wall who last forever
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Great work but you could improve it. For example: Which opening led to which follow-up? Which of all these builds was transitioned into stargate play, which into 6gate etc... maybe you can find out specific patterns
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On July 04 2011 06:04 MapleLeafSirup wrote: Great work but you could improve it. For example: Which opening led to which follow-up? Which of all these builds was transitioned into stargate play, which into 6gate etc... maybe you can find out specific patterns
The links are all there knock yourself out
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On July 04 2011 05:54 Jaeger wrote:Because after ~8 hours of listening to loud ass stacked gom ads the thought of going through all them again to see who won made me sick?
Firefox with the Adblock Plus addon blocks all those adds. I didn't even realize there were adds until a friend told me.
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Where did you get all this information? :O
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Hi, sorry for refreshing this thread, but I don't think it is so important, that I should make a new one.
I made a small collection of FFE openings on season 7 ladder maps, placements of the buildings to be precisive. I didn't made screens for Korhal, Metalopolis and Tal'darim Altar yet. I also didn't manage to gain any PvZ replay played on Ohana. Here are some of them, as I made them after IEM VI Finals. Hope they'll help someone I think all these maps are ESL versions, but I think also, that there are no big differences between those and LE versions.
Entombed Valley + Show Spoiler +
Shakuras Plateau + Show Spoiler +
Metropolis + Show Spoiler + Daybreak + Show Spoiler +
Cloud Kingdom + Show Spoiler +
Antiga Shipyard (2 versions) + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + Enjoy
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For me, the most surprising part is that pros did NOT forge expand in 60% of their games !
It would be interesting to see the win percentage of FFE ( all variants ) vs gate expands, especially nowadays. Somebody should do a similar compilation of results in the recent MLG :p
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On March 30 2012 20:57 Bazy wrote:Hi, sorry for refreshing this thread, but I don't think it is so important, that I should make a new one. I made a small collection of FFE openings on season 7 ladder maps, placements of the buildings to be precisive. I didn't made screens for Korhal, Metalopolis and Tal'darim Altar yet. I also didn't manage to gain any PvZ replay played on Ohana. Here are some of them, as I made them after IEM VI Finals. Hope they'll help someone I think all these maps are ESL versions, but I think also, that there are no big differences between those and LE versions. Entombed Valley + Show Spoiler +Shakuras Plateau + Show Spoiler +Metropolis + Show Spoiler +Daybreak + Show Spoiler +Cloud Kingdom + Show Spoiler +Antiga Shipyard (2 versions) + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +Enjoy
Many of those are quite poor ways to wall off imo. I think in general for walling in you should be able to have a full wall as fast as possible or wall near the nexus while using only strong buildings if possible. Finally you should leave a zealot sized hold that is easily plugged if needed and preferrably have the option to wall off completely early on in case of a ling runby. Also cannon should always be safe from lings/banes and not part of the wall. Entombed picture has cannon part of wall, much weaker to baneling bust that way. Shakuras walls with pylon, not really needed there and only weaker to roaches etc throughout the game. Some others don't use pylons in the wall while the gap is quite big to fill (antiga, entombed etc.). On those maps I think it's best to close the gap with pylons in the wall asap and then later just reinforce the wall with extra buildings behind those pylons. Otherwise you're forced to make the cannon earlier then you want to.
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I agree. I don't do a FFE, and its working out well for me, but thats just because I've gotten used to it and efficient at doing my BO. I thought most people in Masters/GM league were doing FFE, but maybe not...
On March 30 2012 21:06 Nyast wrote: For me, the most surprising part is that pros did NOT forge expand in 60% of their games !
It would be interesting to see the win percentage of FFE ( all variants ) vs gate expands, especially nowadays. Somebody should do a similar compilation of results in the recent MLG :p
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