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Safe PvP - defensive 3 gate -
Good evening TL,
I am geiko, mid master protoss player on the EU server. I'm here to talk to you about the match-up that is hated by most players, often referred to as a coin-flip , you guessed it, this is about PvP. This match-up has completely changed since the last patch, and I think no one can really say they understand it completely. This guide is about my approach to PvP, which I call the "safe PvP". I will present it in form of a [G]uide for anyone not high master or GM, and a [D]iscussion for higher level players. In particular, for all of you mid master and under players who are struggling with 4 gate, this is I believe the safest, easiest way to be safe against 4 gate without 4 gating yourself or sacrificing economy and tech.
@5:50, 4 gate doesn't seem that scary does it ?
Build order : + Show Spoiler +This build is a defensive 3 gate build which transitions into blink play. It also has the potential to transition into any other tech path based on what you scout or your personal preference. 9 pylon Chrono 11th probe 12 gate --> scout Chrono 13th probe 14 assimilator --> 3 probes 16 pylon (build pylon with 15th probes as it comes out of nexus and put it directly in gas) (slight probe cut) 16 cybercore (with 16th probe as it comes out of the nexus)--> warpgate (4 chronoboosts total) 17 zealot Chronoboost 18th probe (variation : you can chronoboost your first stalker instead to chase probe before putting down your second gas) 22 Stalker (cut probes at 24/26) 24 gate 24 assimilator --> 3 in gas 24 pylon (at your ramp) 24 sentry 26 gate (build gate -> assimilator -> pylon -> gate with the same probe. Then send it directly into the new assimilator) 26 probe 27 stalker 29 stalker (same time on both stalkers) 31 probe 32 pylon (32 optional tech structure : robo or stargate) Morph warp gates. Key timings :+ Show Spoiler + -16th probe, 150 minerals and gateway finish at the same time -No probe cut after the 17 zealot (you should be able to build 18th probe right as 17th probe finishes) -You have exactly 100 gas when stalker finishes -Second gateway finishes exactly as sentry finishes -Double stalker finish at the same time as 3rd gate finishes and at the same time as warpgate finishes.
Playing the build : + Show Spoiler +Up to the part where we add the 2nd gate and 2nd assimilator, the build is entirely standard. This allows you to play your PvP as you would normally. Scout proxy locations, react accordingly to cheeses or 2 gate pressure, etc ... Be active with your first zealot + stalker. Chase probes, find proxy pylons etc... Don't over extend your self though, you don't want to meet 3 stalkers in the middle of the map for example. Using your first two units actively should give you an idea of whether or not your opponent is trying to 4 gate you. If you don't do this or don't find the proxy in time or at all, don't worry this build doesn't rely on finding proxy pylons. Try to spot your opponent's tech with your scouting probe or get elements which could giveaway his build : (when) is he getting his 2nd gas ? Did he skip the first zealot ? is he saving chronoboost ? etc... The time is 5:45, your 3 gates have just finished morphing into warpgates. You have 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry at your ramp. If your opponent is 4 gating : + Show Spoiler + The game is practically won. Warp in 3 stalkers at your ramp You have more units than he does (6 stalkers + 1 zealot + 1 sentry), and about the same amount of cool down on your gates ( minus a couple of seconds as he probably had an extra chronoboost on wg research) Your sentry has enough energy for 2 FFs. The 4 gate runs out of resources after the 4 warp-ins. This means that if you can kill one unit every time you place a FF, you will be good with 3 gates. In, practice however, you will kill a lot more. when he places a pylon at the bottom of the ramp, wait for him to warp in zealots first and FF your ramp. Kite them into your base without losing anything, warp in 3 more stalkers, and you have defeated the 4 gate. If he is doign an "in your face" 4 gate with his first pylons at the bottom of your ramp (you haven't successfully microed your initial units), don't panic, you'll just need to be very tight, warp in stalkers as soon as you can, FF out the units that you can, and focus the stalkers. You stalker count should be much higher than his and if you are carefull in avoiding the zealots, you should come out ahead.
Playing blink:This build is originally designed to transition into blink play. Warp in 3 stalkers immediately and go pressure with 6 stalkers + 1 zealot. Throw down twilight council + pylon while the stalkers are on their way. This is also the time when you can squeeze in 2 extra probes. Ideally you want to reach ~26 mining probes, get a couple of probes everytime you feel you can safely afford it. Poke up the ramp with the zealot (go up and down really fast just to spot what he has). If your zealot gets FFed and killed, it's not that big a deal, since only the stalker count matters when playing blink. You will want to be very careful if you are playing against another blink build. As soon as you scout the high stalker count, go back to your base and wait for blink to finish. If you don't you will lose all your stalkers as a greedy play gets blink faster. Once blink finishes, you will have the same amount of stalkers as your opponents. If your opponent is playing a robo build, he will most likely be getting fast immortals. (1 base colo) + Show Spoiler +Blink builds own 1 base colossus, so keep checking if he isn't trying to get a fast colossus out. If he does, you should be able to blink in the base, snipe the colossus and win the game right there (assuming you have macroed correctly, and have a proxy pylon at his natural). Most players will cancel the robotics bay once they scout the stalker count and chrono out immortals instead. You will not want to fight this army head on, but on the other hand, he cannot leave his base without opening a base trade situation. Check his expansion timing and expand as soon as he has. You will want to take a far away expansion (abuse blink mobility in case of base trade) and teching to chargelot/archon is the natural transition. During this time, you must not allow him to push out (keep threatening his natural). Against stargate, it should be relatively easy. Defending the DTs : If you have not been able to spot his tech, or still have doubts, you must be prepared for a DT rush. However getting a robo or a forge will greatly set you back if he isn't going DTs. You must therefore wall of your ramp with zealot + stalker. The second you hear that your ramp is under attack, Forcefield it and build forge + robo at your ramp. Also bring your army back at the ramp. Keep on forcefielding, build a cannon and warp in 2 more sentries. This should give you a total of 7 FFs (1min45 secs) which is the time for your forge + cannon to finish. Walling in with forge + robo +stalker is a fail-safe in case you mistime some of your FFs. If you don't trust your reaction time, or fear you might be distracted in battle, wall off with 2 layers (3 stalker + 1 zealot) instead. Gas stealing :If you get your second gas stolen, work on destroying the assimilator with zealot + stalker and take it as soon as you can. You will want to not build a sentry (so as to not fall behind in gas) and get a stalker instead. Then continue as normal. You can warp in a sentry instead of a stalker at your first warping if you need to defend against 4 gate. Else, skip the sentry all together. Chronoboosting your probes for the third time can induce a gas steal. You might want to try the variation of the build where you chrono your stalker instead and delay your 2nd gas by just a little. Possible Variations :For the people who hate blink play or for cases where you have luckily managed to scout an early robo and don't feel like playing blink vs robo, this opening can also transition into any other tech path. As stated in the BO, the variation is to throw down your tech structure before the first warp in. Do this only if you are sure that there is no 4 gate coming. If you do and a 4 gate still comes, it's no problem, you can just cancel the tech structure and warp in stalkers. Send your zealot + 3 stalkers at his base to poke and gather more information on the units that you should be warping in. This poking isn't really mandatory but I like to do it to try and get a little more information. This is usually when you'll know that it is safe to get a couple of extra probes. This should add to the information you have gotten before and should confirm or not your choice. If the choice you have made is really bad (you are going stargate and you meet 6 stalkers at the top of your opponent's ramp), it is not too late to cancel your tech, and chose a new one. (it's better to play slightly late with the right tech, than on time with the wrong tech). In the stargate vs blink example, you can cancel the stargate, warp in stalkers and get a twilight council, and play defensively in your base until your own blink is done, at which point you will be on equal footings with your opponent. Another variation of the BO is to use your third probe chronoboost on your stalker instead. And delay your gas slightly until the scouting probe is killed. Do this only if the probes stays in your base and you want to fake a 4 gate. If you don't feel like playing mind games, the fact that he sees your second gas insn't really a problem. With your scouting probe, if your opponent didn't take the time to clear the area around his base, you can put the 32 pylon as a proxy and warp in your first three stalkers near his base. This should give you a 15-20 second lead on your 6 stalker poke. Strengths of the build : + Show Spoiler + -Doesn't rely on being lucky and finding proxies or scouting stuff you shouldn't.
-Safe PvP opener (crushes 4 gate). Some people will say that their gate -> robo/twilight -> gate -> gate opener is safe. These people are wrong and have probably never faced a well executed 4 gate. Their build maybe won't lose all the time to 4 gate, but most of the time, it will depend on execution of the 4 gate , or micro.
-You get an early second gas --> you won't be behind in tech
-Relies on only one sentry. Some PvP builds claim to be safe against 4 gate by making a lot of sentries. The real problem is that sentries are pretty much useless in the PvP mid and late game and are extremely expensive (gas is the main constraint in PvP). Getting more than one sentry will set you far back in the mid game if your opponent is not 4 gating.
-Can transition into any branch of protoss tech tree.
-Does not sacrifice much economy, even compared to less safe builds.
Weaknesses of the build : + Show Spoiler + -Doesn't entirely solve the coin flip problem of the tech choice. Blink build vs greedy 1 gate robo is hard to play for example (not impossible though)
-Doesn't have the option to punish greedy builds. Since you delay your tech compared to straight up tech builds, you will have to play slightly conservatively while waiting for your tech to be operational.
-Susceptible to gas stealing. (especially once your opponent scouts the 3rd chronoboost on your nexus).
-Slightly delayed tech
-Depending on the tech or strategy chosen by your opponent, you can very much be forced to have to go all in with your blink stalker build (base trade situations or blink vs blink macro + micro wars). If you don't like to find your self in such situations, the robo transition will fit your style better.
Replays : + Show Spoiler +This is more of a build order guide than a game plan thread. The build isn't designed to give you an edge over your opponent but is rather a safe way to enter the mid game without sacrificing gas, economy or tech. I have provided some replays : A perfect execution of the build against the AI to show the exact timings. If you are going to use this build, you need to study this replay a lot. This shows the perfect execution when all the timings fall into place exactly. Notice how when you start blink you have 0/0 ressource as well as 24 probes. Look at the replay from my camera view so you see every detail you should be doing. A defense against a perfectly executed 4 gate (against a high master player) Against a 10 gate 4 stalker + 1 zealot early push (high master player) Against a 4 gate with first two pylons under my ramp by Harstem, a very high master player Discussion : + Show Spoiler + I would like to have some top players' comments on my approach to PvP, if you disagree with anything that has been said in this OP, you can feel free to post. I'd also love to know how viable you guys think this could be on Tal darim altar, or scrap station at very high level. I know I can hold off 4 gate with this at my level : micro 6 stalkers + 1 zealot against 6 stalkers + 1 zealot, then bring the sentry in when it has enough for 2 FFs and the opponent attacks with 4 more zealots. Double FF the choke, warp in 3 stalkers, and kill off the units. But is this still true with perfect micro in GM league ?
Playing the midgame : + Show Spoiler +
Conclusion :
This build falls under the category "defensive 3 gate in to tech". I know there are some 3 gate builds out there and I don't claim to have invented 3 gating (in before the usual "been doing this since beta" posts...). I really like my take on it and I thought I'd share it with you guys, since there isn't any guide to defensive 3 gate in PvP on TL. I highly recommend this build to anyone who has given up on PvP and thinks it's all about 4 gating : this build makes 4 gate look incredibly weak. People who hate taking risks and like safe builds will also appreciate it. I spent alot of time optimizing the BO so all the timings would fall into place nicely. The build is really smooth and should be executed as flawlessly as possible. Feel free to post any kind of feedback, positive or negative. I would also appreciate any high level replays of this build (winning or failing). Finally, I'd like to thank Anihc for the time and help he gave me to be able to write this guide.
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Nice write up may use it when I off-race.
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I think I'll give it a try. Nice guide though, well written : )
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This build may well be a saving grace for PvP. If it works aswell as you make it sound, the match up could be changed to stray away from the damn fourgate!
Awesome build.
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Good job, I have a build that does similar. I rarely use it though unless I suspect a 4gate, otherwise I expand against most Robo builds and every Stargate build. It amazes me that people cant figure out how to defend a 4gate without cutting econ though.
I would like to mention to people that each warp cycle the 4gate is warping in 1 more unit so they will slowly outnumber your forces baring a major encounter that you win. So you are stuck in your base till your tech finishes.
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I checked the "perfect" replay. The build is really nice and smooth. I will definitely try to use it. Thank you again!
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On July 04 2011 18:59 mousez wrote: This build may well be a saving grace for PvP. If it works aswell as you make it sound, the match up could be changed to stray away from the damn fourgate!
Awesome build.
I definitely hope that mid master and under players who couldn't find a safe way to defend 4 gate will start to use this. However at higher levels, there are other ways of dealing with 4 gate (but much less safe)
On July 04 2011 19:15 Sweetness.751 wrote: Good job, I have a build that does similar. I rarely use it though unless I suspect a 4gate, otherwise I expand against most Robo builds and every Stargate build. It amazes me that people cant figure out how to defend a 4gate without cutting econ though.
I would like to mention to people that each warp cycle the 4gate is warping in 1 more unit so they will slowly outnumber your forces baring a major encounter that you win. So you are stuck in your base till your tech finishes.
This isn't entirely accurate. 4 gate will run out of ressources way before they get a significant unit lead. They will in addition lose any early units that they use to poke up the ramp and see what is up. Also, they are warping in zealots which will be very weak later on while you are warping in only stalkers.
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The only thing that would worry me about this build is getting the sentry as your 3rd unit. If they come in with an early push with 1z/2st or 3st or 2z 4st push id have to think specifically how to respond to that - but you should only have to worry about that on close positions on like meta/shattered/pits. Or if they 10 gated maybe.
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Sounds interesting. Do you know how your build does against the "Day9/Tyler" build (10G => Fast Robo => Gate) which can have 2 Colossi and 2 Immortals quite quickly? (This build)
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think you Geiko for this post, it's really great to see you again in the TL community with an other topic , I hope it would change the PvP macht up
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I have probably faced this build before, and I have definitely faced the opening (zeal->stalker->sentry with 2 gas and wasted 3rd chronoboost). I've had many games where I just make 2 pylons on his high ground while my zeal/stalker battles his zeal/stalker somewhere on the map. From there I have slightly earlier warpgate, instant warp in your base, and 4 gates production (vs 3 of this build).
I would suggest zeal stalker stalker sentry. That 2nd stalker will help kill any sneaky probe that re-enters your base, and will reinforce your army better (there is still time before warp gate finishes and you can get some extra damage on him). Or skip zealot and get earlier gate for 2/3 stalkers.
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On July 04 2011 19:32 Complete wrote: The only thing that would worry me about this build is getting the sentry as your 3rd unit. If they come in with an early push with 1z/2st or 3st or 2z 4st push id have to think specifically how to respond to that - but you should only have to worry about that on close positions on like meta/shattered/pits. Or if they 10 gated maybe.
Against early low unit pushes, you can just use a FF, or micro back in your base. In the 4 gate replay, he tries to be agressif with his first units before the push, but you can easily micro and stall for time until your 2 stalkers come out. It usually ends in them losing a lot of units if they try to poke up the ramp. The 10 gate replays show how this deals with earlier than expected aggression.
On July 04 2011 19:32 Merany wrote:Sounds interesting. Do you know how your build does against the "Day9/Tyler" build (10G => Fast Robo => Gate) which can have 2 Colossi and 2 Immortals quite quickly? ( This build)
You have an econ lead against this build, but he has a tech advantage. He will not be able to push out though without risking to be backstabed (and he will most likely lose a base trade situation so I wouldn't be too worried about the push. he'll probably expand, secure his expand and then push out. By that time you'll have an expand of your own and you'll have transitioned (zealots chargelot for example.) It will evolve into a robo vs blink game which is hard to play, but not impossible if you have good micro.
I'm not really a fan of the whole cut probes / no scout Tyler build just to get early immortals. If you scout this opening, you can go robo instead of blink and be fine : he'll just have one more immortal than you but you'll have more gateway units and a slight ressource lead. Both builds take gas at the same time so in the later stages of the game, you will both be on equal footing)
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safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s
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On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote: safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s
3 Stalkers is nothing safe. If you don't find the proxy pylons, if he has send a hidden probe you don't scout, you are dead. Also against players who skip the first zealot, I also skip the sentry, and I see no way that this should be at a "gross disadvantage"
As the post under me says : this build is a response to standard play leading to either 4 gate or early tech. If he is clearly going 3 stalker play you don't need a sentry and you are in no way behind.
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On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote: safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s
I don't understand this post at all. If someone does the 3 stalker opening, it diverges from a 4gate opening quite early (double chrono on probes and early second gateway) at which point (upon scouting) you are no longer obligated to follow this build order at all. Someone doing a 3 stalker opening is much better for you than someone doing a 1gate tech build.
OP: great post, thanks a lot.
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wow looks nice. If you've engineered this build yourself youve done really well with all the timings. This only works against a 4 gate though doesnt it? if he goes gate robo gate gate and gets immortals and then techs to collosus. Or if he straight up rushes to DT, youre gonna be far behind arent you?
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On July 04 2011 20:41 ThatGuy89 wrote: wow looks nice. If you've engineered this build yourself youve done really well with all the timings. This only works against a 4 gate though doesnt it? if he goes gate robo gate gate and gets immortals and then techs to collosus. Or if he straight up rushes to DT, youre gonna be far behind arent you?
It depends what you mean by far behind. You won't be behind in gas which is what PvP is all about. You'll be a bit behind if you chose twilight tech, as blink vs robo is hard to play. But not greatly behind. The rock-scisor-paper aspect of PvP isn't something that can be solved through a build order, but this is the BO that I like to do to still be able to keep up in tech if I chose the wrong tech path.
I explained how to deal with DTs, but the most effective way of stopping it is with good intuition that they are coming (poking, scouting with probes etc...)
And yeah I did work on those timings alone (took me a lot of time optimising so everything would fall into place at 5:50)
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On July 04 2011 20:47 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 20:41 ThatGuy89 wrote: wow looks nice. If you've engineered this build yourself youve done really well with all the timings. This only works against a 4 gate though doesnt it? if he goes gate robo gate gate and gets immortals and then techs to collosus. Or if he straight up rushes to DT, youre gonna be far behind arent you? It depends what you mean by far behind. You won't be behind in gas which is what PvP is all about. You'll be a bit behind if you chose twilight tech, as blink vs robo is hard to play. But not greatly behind. The rock-scisor-paper aspect of PvP isn't something that can be solved through a build order, but this is the BO that I like to do to still be able to keep up in tech if I chose the wrong tech path. I explained how to deal with DTs, but the most effective way of stopping it is with good intuition that they are coming (poking, scouting with probes etc...) And yeah I did work on those timings alone (took me a lot of time optimising so everything would fall into place at 5:50) so do you just do this in every pvp you play? or do you have to scout something that makes you do this? i know in the 10 gate game you scouted what he was doing, but what if you scout and maybe see him throw down a robo. Would you just abandon this altogether? what about on tal darim, would you do this on that map too?
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On July 04 2011 21:02 ThatGuy89 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 20:47 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 20:41 ThatGuy89 wrote: wow looks nice. If you've engineered this build yourself youve done really well with all the timings. This only works against a 4 gate though doesnt it? if he goes gate robo gate gate and gets immortals and then techs to collosus. Or if he straight up rushes to DT, youre gonna be far behind arent you? It depends what you mean by far behind. You won't be behind in gas which is what PvP is all about. You'll be a bit behind if you chose twilight tech, as blink vs robo is hard to play. But not greatly behind. The rock-scisor-paper aspect of PvP isn't something that can be solved through a build order, but this is the BO that I like to do to still be able to keep up in tech if I chose the wrong tech path. I explained how to deal with DTs, but the most effective way of stopping it is with good intuition that they are coming (poking, scouting with probes etc...) And yeah I did work on those timings alone (took me a lot of time optimising so everything would fall into place at 5:50) so do you just do this in every pvp you play? or do you have to scout something that makes you do this? i know in the 10 gate game you scouted what he was doing, but what if you scout and maybe see him throw down a robo. Would you just abandon this altogether? what about on tal darim, would you do this on that map too?
This build is tailored to be safe against standard 12 gate 14 gaz 16 core 17/18 zealot openings. Incidentally, it also works vs 10 gate openings (single gate).
However you will have to adapt against a heavy gas play, or 2 gate play. (and as said above no zealot). Since the build is entirely standard up to the point where you scout, this shouldn't be a problem.
Regarding Tal Darim and Scrap, as I've said, I'm not too sure. With good micro maybe... At least in the lower divisions I would definitely do this as the 4 gate is always 15 to 20 seconds late. Top level PvP, this probably isn't viable on maps with no ramp.
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good build but you have a wrong aproach to how to counter 4 gate. when you have 1 stalker 1 sentry 1 zealot up and you 2nd and 3rd stalkers are coming. There will be a probes spamming 2 pylon at your ramp with 2 stalkers 1 zealot protecting it. What would happen is that the zealot poke up the ramp, see the dps is much much less than what he has and you will have to use your 1st FF there. When the pylons complete and you still have FF, instead of wraping in stalkers, those will be zealot contesting ur defends (they wrap in on your ramp which FF cant block what so ever). From there the 3 gate will slowly be out produced by 4 gate under the condition that you cant make sentry to counter zealot in that case.
a better variation of the build could be placing your 2nd pylon at the ramp and have your 2nd and 3rd gate there. But it will be scouted and the other player could just tech switch seeing such a wall of with probe scout early.
your build is designed to kill a delayed 4 gate where you hope you could win the early micro 1 stalker 1 zealot battle to get out ahead. Its not a complete safe build and got countered the same way day9/tyler immo rush build except in the immo build you have the DPS to kill the pylons.
TLDR: you have no DPS to deny proxy pylon what so ever.
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It is nice how the build squeezes units in during warpgate research. However it is worth mentioning that in the "perfect masters 4gate" replay your opponent actually transforms his gates 15s after his research finished and his proxy pylons were not timed towards the end of the research either. So vs a 4gate which is really perfect you would have to FF your ramp earlier, but you probably will still be able to win it.
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On July 04 2011 22:11 NB wrote: good build but you have a wrong aproach to how to counter 4 gate. when you have 1 stalker 1 sentry 1 zealot up and you 2nd and 3rd stalkers are coming. There will be a probes spamming 2 pylon at your ramp with 2 stalkers 1 zealot protecting it. What would happen is that the zealot poke up the ramp, see the dps is much much less than what he has and you will have to use your 1st FF there. When the pylons complete and you still have FF, instead of wraping in stalkers, those will be zealot contesting ur defends (they wrap in on your ramp which FF cant block what so ever). From there the 3 gate will slowly be out produced by 4 gate under the condition that you cant make sentry to counter zealot in that case.
a better variation of the build could be placing your 2nd pylon at the ramp and have your 2nd and 3rd gate there. But it will be scouted and the other player could just tech switch seeing such a wall of with probe scout early.
your build is designed to kill a delayed 4 gate where you hope you could win the early micro 1 stalker 1 zealot battle to get out ahead. Its not a complete safe build and got countered the same way day9/tyler immo rush build except in the immo build you have the DPS to kill the pylons.
TLDR: you have no DPS to deny proxy pylon what so ever.
Yes I addressed this point as well. First of all, the micro battle at the bottom of your ramp will be 1 zealot + 1 stalker + 1 sentry for you, and 1 zealot + 1 stalker + 1 probe for him (the second stalker cannot be there while you are putting your pylons and only arrives at 5:45 - 5:50. If it does get to a point where he places his first 2 pylons at the bottom of your ramp you will have to use your first FF only when he warps in his 4 stalkers. Your two stalkers should finish before his and start shooting at the warping in stuff. You warp in 2 stalkers and 1 sentry, kill off what is in your base and FF 2 or 3 units if he tries to go up the ramp.
Against zealots, sentry have almost the same DPS as a stalker, keep in mind that you have a one unit advatage and well placed FF will extend that adavantage.
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Hi,
i dont like that you say it "destroys" every counter 4 gate. The Naniwa style ( 18 gateway b4 cyber core finishes) handle this pretty good because you can poke in with 3 stalkers and snipe the sentry or atleast pull of the energy and then this "counter build" looks pretty old...
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On July 04 2011 22:30 Geiko wrote: Yes I addressed this point as well. First of all, the micro battle at the bottom of your ramp will be 1 zealot + 1 stalker + 1 sentry for you, and 1 zealot + 1 stalker + 1 probe for him (the second stalker cannot be there while you are putting your pylons and only arrives at 5:45 - 5:50.
It is possible to start the 2nd stalker before the extra gateways in an aggressive 4-gate, and it would only delay the push by a second or two at most.
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If you could upload a few more replays of how you deal with a 4gate it would be great. I feel like the replays doesn't really show me how to play it out if he 4gate since the only guy who 4gates make a few big errors.
very interesting build though
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There is no safe PvP to be honest. Yeah this may hold a 4gate but if your opponent goes 1 gate robo or 1 gate council you're very very far behind. Their blink will finish much quicker than yours, and if they go robo they can easily expo no problem after colossus production kicks in.
If you expand, then they just 2 colossus no range push or 3 colossus w/ range push and your dead, unless you managed to squeeze in a robo and wanna go for the blink stalker/colossus base trade, but even then that game almost never works.
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On July 05 2011 01:02 sjschmidt93 wrote: There is no safe PvP to be honest. Yeah this may hold a 4gate but if your opponent goes 1 gate robo or 1 gate council you're very very far behind. Their blink will finish much quicker than yours, and if they go robo they can easily expo no problem after colossus production kicks in.
If you expand, then they just 2 colossus no range push or 3 colossus w/ range push and your dead, unless you managed to squeeze in a robo and wanna go for the blink stalker/colossus base trade, but even then that game almost never works.
Opponents going 1 gate council doesn't put me behind. Like I said, their blink will finish 1 minute earlier than mine, so what ? They still can't bust up my ramp if I am playing defensively.
Against 1 gate robo, and colo timing pushes, they are still leaving their base open to a base trade situation. If I have taken a far away expansion I will come out ahead of the base trade. If they wait too long for their push, then my zealot archon + mass blink stalkers can win against 3,4 colo army.
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On July 04 2011 20:34 blah_blah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote: safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s I don't understand this post at all. If someone does the 3 stalker opening, it diverges from a 4gate opening quite early (double chrono on probes and early second gateway) at which point (upon scouting) you are no longer obligated to follow this build order at all. Someone doing a 3 stalker opening is much better for you than someone doing a 1gate tech build. OP: great post, thanks a lot.
9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core 19 gate 20 stalker, warpgate 22 two stalkers 26 two gates 26 proxy pylon 5:42 warp in 3 stalker 1 zealot
Same exact outcome as conventional 4gate despite opening 3stalker
I don't know why people try and act like they know something that I don't LOL
I brought up 3 stalker instead of a 1gate tech build because 3 stalker is 100% safe vs 4gate, as this build claims to be, but has a much better economy and allows for much more early game flexibility (3stalker can stop 10gate 4gates by following up the 3 stalkers with 2 stalkers instead of 2 sentries)
and geiko, you obviously don't know how to 3 stalker properly. I absolutely do not need to kill the proxy, simply zone it away from my ramp. 10 starcraft meters away is absolutely fine with me. I can also use the early unit advantage to pick off units, which is helpful.
try doing the 3 stalker opening, only chrono the first stalker and rest on warpgate. after the two stalkers are done (three total) start two sentries. warpgate will be done right when those are finished, warp in one stalker and one sentry. No warpgate rush can break you and you are free to tech. If you think I'm wrong or naive or don't have gm level pvp then feel free to pm me about it or play me at CCalms.951
On July 05 2011 01:11 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 01:02 sjschmidt93 wrote: There is no safe PvP to be honest. Yeah this may hold a 4gate but if your opponent goes 1 gate robo or 1 gate council you're very very far behind. Their blink will finish much quicker than yours, and if they go robo they can easily expo no problem after colossus production kicks in.
If you expand, then they just 2 colossus no range push or 3 colossus w/ range push and your dead, unless you managed to squeeze in a robo and wanna go for the blink stalker/colossus base trade, but even then that game almost never works. Opponents going 1 gate council doesn't put me behind. Like I said, their blink will finish 1 minute earlier than mine, so what ? They still can't bust up my ramp if I am playing defensively. Against 1 gate robo, and colo timing pushes, they are still leaving their base open to a base trade situation. If I have taken a far away expansion I will come out ahead of the base trade. If they wait too long for their push, then my zealot archon + mass blink stalkers can win against 3,4 colo army.
The blink harass style of play has nothing to do with your build, it only serves as the only real viable follow up (too much gas spent on stalkers to go into other tech efficiently). If someone else does a more intelligible blink build then you just die. All it takes is one less stalker early game (or two-four, in your build's case) to have the fight snowball into a one-sided blinkfest. If the other guy goes robo, it has absolutely nothing to do with your build but rather his ability to know how to deal with blink harass and set up an expansion and sim city.
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On July 04 2011 22:30 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 22:11 NB wrote: good build but you have a wrong aproach to how to counter 4 gate. when you have 1 stalker 1 sentry 1 zealot up and you 2nd and 3rd stalkers are coming. There will be a probes spamming 2 pylon at your ramp with 2 stalkers 1 zealot protecting it. What would happen is that the zealot poke up the ramp, see the dps is much much less than what he has and you will have to use your 1st FF there. When the pylons complete and you still have FF, instead of wraping in stalkers, those will be zealot contesting ur defends (they wrap in on your ramp which FF cant block what so ever). From there the 3 gate will slowly be out produced by 4 gate under the condition that you cant make sentry to counter zealot in that case.
a better variation of the build could be placing your 2nd pylon at the ramp and have your 2nd and 3rd gate there. But it will be scouted and the other player could just tech switch seeing such a wall of with probe scout early.
your build is designed to kill a delayed 4 gate where you hope you could win the early micro 1 stalker 1 zealot battle to get out ahead. Its not a complete safe build and got countered the same way day9/tyler immo rush build except in the immo build you have the DPS to kill the pylons.
TLDR: you have no DPS to deny proxy pylon what so ever. Yes I addressed this point as well. First of all, the micro battle at the bottom of your ramp will be 1 zealot + 1 stalker + 1 sentry for you, and 1 zealot + 1 stalker + 1 probe for him (the second stalker cannot be there while you are putting your pylons and only arrives at 5:45 - 5:50. If it does get to a point where he places his first 2 pylons at the bottom of your ramp you will have to use your first FF only when he warps in his 4 stalkers. Your two stalkers should finish before his and start shooting at the warping in stuff. You warp in 2 stalkers and 1 sentry, kill off what is in your base and FF 2 or 3 units if he tries to go up the ramp. Against zealots, sentry have almost the same DPS as a stalker, keep in mind that you have a one unit advatage and well placed FF will extend that adavantage. first of all about 1 stalker 1 zealot vs 1 stalker 1 zealot 1 sentry: the 4 gate player could easily target your sentry if you dont use your FF properly. the situation will come down to you trading a sentry for his zealot while his stalker getaway....
lets ignore the 4 stalkers wrap in possibility and talk about 4 zealot wrap in which make (2 stalkers +1zealot) + (4 zealots). these will be on top of the ramp vs you 3 stalkers 1 zealot 1 sentry which has no FF (plus 3 wrapgate wraping in). Assuming army trade happen here, the next wave of wrap in will be earlyier from his side and its 4 units instead of 3.
Sentry might do almost the same as stalker vs zealot but they dont have the ability to kite zealot as well as they have no HP to do so. Against player who can execute a perfect 4 gate (which could be easily practice by playing vs AI) these cant held off. Watch Hwangsin stream, the only thing he does in PvP is 4 gate and every time the other guy must response with a 4 gates of his own or he is dead 1 way or another.
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Checked the timings, they are very crisp and give that polished feeling to the guide. I prefer this build to a 3 stalker opening. While it is true that both are good against 4 gate, skipping the zealot leaves you open to any proxy gates/hidden pylon in your base/gas steal. As pointed out, getting the sentry as your 3rd unit may be dangerous if the distance between the bases is short.
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On July 05 2011 01:20 CCalms wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 20:34 blah_blah wrote:On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote: safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s I don't understand this post at all. If someone does the 3 stalker opening, it diverges from a 4gate opening quite early (double chrono on probes and early second gateway) at which point (upon scouting) you are no longer obligated to follow this build order at all. Someone doing a 3 stalker opening is much better for you than someone doing a 1gate tech build. OP: great post, thanks a lot. 9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core 19 gate 20 stalker, warpgate 22 two stalkers 26 two gates 26 proxy pylon 5:42 warp in 3 stalker 1 zealot Same exact outcome as conventional 4gate despite opening 3stalker I don't know why people try and act like they know something that I don't LOL I brought up 3 stalker instead of a 1gate tech build because 3 stalker is 100% safe vs 4gate, as this build claims to be, but has a much better economy and allows for much more early game flexibility (3stalker can stop 10gate 4gates by following up the 3 stalkers with 2 stalkers instead of 2 sentries) and geiko, you obviously don't know how to 3 stalker properly. I absolutely do not need to kill the proxy, simply zone it away from my ramp. 10 starcraft meters away is absolutely fine with me. I can also use the early unit advantage to pick off units, which is helpful. try doing the 3 stalker opening, only chrono the first stalker and rest on warpgate. after the two stalkers are done (three total) start two sentries. warpgate will be done right when those are finished, warp in one stalker and one sentry. No warpgate rush can break you and you are free to tech. If you think I'm wrong or naive or don't have gm level pvp then feel free to pm me about it or play me at CCalms.951 Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 01:11 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:02 sjschmidt93 wrote: There is no safe PvP to be honest. Yeah this may hold a 4gate but if your opponent goes 1 gate robo or 1 gate council you're very very far behind. Their blink will finish much quicker than yours, and if they go robo they can easily expo no problem after colossus production kicks in.
If you expand, then they just 2 colossus no range push or 3 colossus w/ range push and your dead, unless you managed to squeeze in a robo and wanna go for the blink stalker/colossus base trade, but even then that game almost never works. Opponents going 1 gate council doesn't put me behind. Like I said, their blink will finish 1 minute earlier than mine, so what ? They still can't bust up my ramp if I am playing defensively. Against 1 gate robo, and colo timing pushes, they are still leaving their base open to a base trade situation. If I have taken a far away expansion I will come out ahead of the base trade. If they wait too long for their push, then my zealot archon + mass blink stalkers can win against 3,4 colo army. The blink harass style of play has nothing to do with your build, it only serves as the only real viable follow up (too much gas spent on stalkers to go into other tech efficiently). If someone else does a more intelligible blink build then you just die. All it takes is one less stalker early game (or two-four, in your build's case) to have the fight snowball into a one-sided blinkfest. If the other guy goes robo, it has absolutely nothing to do with your build but rather his ability to know how to deal with blink harass and set up an expansion and sim city.
You're really mixing up two builds which are quite clearly reconizable. I believe the 3 stalker rush spends a lot of chronoboost on the stalkers while the build you are giving here that is supposed to hit a 5:42 timing obviously has all the chronoboost spent on warpgate. If you can't tell that a 3 stalker "rush" is late by 20 seconds, then clearly we are not playing at the same level.
Also I would need you to explain to me why my build is 4 stalkers late ? That doesn't make any sense to me.
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On July 05 2011 01:37 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 22:30 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 22:11 NB wrote: good build but you have a wrong aproach to how to counter 4 gate. when you have 1 stalker 1 sentry 1 zealot up and you 2nd and 3rd stalkers are coming. There will be a probes spamming 2 pylon at your ramp with 2 stalkers 1 zealot protecting it. What would happen is that the zealot poke up the ramp, see the dps is much much less than what he has and you will have to use your 1st FF there. When the pylons complete and you still have FF, instead of wraping in stalkers, those will be zealot contesting ur defends (they wrap in on your ramp which FF cant block what so ever). From there the 3 gate will slowly be out produced by 4 gate under the condition that you cant make sentry to counter zealot in that case.
a better variation of the build could be placing your 2nd pylon at the ramp and have your 2nd and 3rd gate there. But it will be scouted and the other player could just tech switch seeing such a wall of with probe scout early.
your build is designed to kill a delayed 4 gate where you hope you could win the early micro 1 stalker 1 zealot battle to get out ahead. Its not a complete safe build and got countered the same way day9/tyler immo rush build except in the immo build you have the DPS to kill the pylons.
TLDR: you have no DPS to deny proxy pylon what so ever. Yes I addressed this point as well. First of all, the micro battle at the bottom of your ramp will be 1 zealot + 1 stalker + 1 sentry for you, and 1 zealot + 1 stalker + 1 probe for him (the second stalker cannot be there while you are putting your pylons and only arrives at 5:45 - 5:50. If it does get to a point where he places his first 2 pylons at the bottom of your ramp you will have to use your first FF only when he warps in his 4 stalkers. Your two stalkers should finish before his and start shooting at the warping in stuff. You warp in 2 stalkers and 1 sentry, kill off what is in your base and FF 2 or 3 units if he tries to go up the ramp. Against zealots, sentry have almost the same DPS as a stalker, keep in mind that you have a one unit advatage and well placed FF will extend that adavantage. first of all about 1 stalker 1 zealot vs 1 stalker 1 zealot 1 sentry: the 4 gate player could easily target your sentry if you dont use your FF properly. the situation will come down to you trading a sentry for his zealot while his stalker getaway.... lets ignore the 4 stalkers wrap in possibility and talk about 4 zealot wrap in which make (2 stalkers +1zealot) + (4 zealots). these will be on top of the ramp vs you 3 stalkers 1 zealot 1 sentry which has no FF (plus 3 wrapgate wraping in). Assuming army trade happen here, the next wave of wrap in will be earlyier from his side and its 4 units instead of 3. Sentry might do almost the same as stalker vs zealot but they dont have the ability to kite zealot as well as they have no HP to do so. Against player who can execute a perfect 4 gate (which could be easily practice by playing vs AI) these cant held off. Watch Hwangsin stream, the only thing he does in PvP is 4 gate and every time the other guy must response with a 4 gates of his own or he is dead 1 way or another.
Like I said, if the opponent gets that close, you warp in a second sentry and that's that. I'm not saying there is 0 micro to be done with my build... I would gladly test what you are saying with someone on the EU server (if you can get an account there, or have an extra NA server for me)
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Canada13372 Posts
Hmm I may try this out but look forward to a weigh in from a really high level player on whether this is better than my current 3 stalker into blink/3rd gate attack. At my level of diamond/low masters I can out micro robo play as long as I keep their immortal count down to one.
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On July 04 2011 20:25 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote: safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s 3 Stalkers is nothing safe. If you don't find the proxy pylons, if he has send a hidden probe you don't scout, you are dead. This is just plain false. For example on White-Ra's stream yesterday he held a 4 gate with the 3 Stalker opening into 4 gate. You use your three Stalker advantage to kill off the enemy two Stalkers. Then you produce more and have 5-6 Stalkers as they are warping in units. You continually warp in Stalkers and keep the enemy Stalker count low, and you'll just win. White-Ra did this even with a nearby proxy pylon and two on his low ground. The caveat is that you need to be competent in order to keep your Stalkers alive (even White-Ra blundered a couple times and lost a few unnecessarily).
This build would will give you no map presence, and if I see a sentry that early I won't be thinking "I need to hurry up and attack him before he gets his defensive position". I'm thinking "Lets lay down a free Twilight Council and keep total reign over the middle of the map", or something to that effect. You have no offensive potential, and an opponent can lay down an earlier tech structure than you and get an advantage. For example what if I open with an early second assimilator and I see you got a sentry so early, and a later assimilator? I'm definitely going to be controlling the middle of the map looking for proxy pylons everywhere while taking very early tech.
What would happen vs the common 3 Stalker opening? They'd have map presence, free reign around the map, an earlier second gas and thusly better economy, more Stalkers, and earlier Blink (or tech of choice).
My conclusion is that this build can be good in a single situation (where the enemy ram's their face into you with early offense), but that's it. It doesn't have a solid game plan, doesn't have any deviations depending on information revealed, and doesn't have a way to keep the opponent in check early game.
Edit:
On July 04 2011 18:41 Geiko wrote: Double FF the choke, warp in 3 stalkers, and kill off the units. But is this still true with perfect micro in GM league ? GM league players have faaaaar from perfect micro.
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On July 05 2011 02:51 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 20:25 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote: safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s 3 Stalkers is nothing safe. If you don't find the proxy pylons, if he has send a hidden probe you don't scout, you are dead. This is just plain false. For example on White-Ra's stream yesterday he held a 4 gate with the 3 Stalker opening into 4 gate. You use your three Stalker advantage to kill off the enemy two Stalkers. Then you produce more and have 5-6 Stalkers as they are warping in units. You continually warp in Stalkers and keep the enemy Stalker count low, and you'll just win. White-Ra did this even with a nearby proxy pylon and two on his low ground. The caveat is that you need to be competent in order to keep your Stalkers alive (even White-Ra blundered a couple times and lost a few unnecessarily). Edit: Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 18:41 Geiko wrote: Double FF the choke, warp in 3 stalkers, and kill off the units. But is this still true with perfect micro in GM league ? GM league players have faaaaar from perfect micro.
Let me rephrase : 3 stalkers is heavily micro dependant in case of a 4 gate. I feel my build allows for an easier time dealing with the 4gate (thus "safer")
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I've been doing a defensive 3gate wtih gassteal, and I feel like you really need to gassteal if you do something like this. Your opening is obviously better vs 4gate than mine, but if he doesn't 4gate and just fast techs colossus or blink you're behind.
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while i have no doubt that that 3 gate can hold or even beat 4 gates non tech, defensive builds sucks vs. contains really hard.
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I'm convinced this will stop super aggressive 4gates, but that's about all it'll do.
Off topic but sadly this is no solution to maps like Taldarim or Scrap =[ still gonna be 4gate 4gate fest on those maps
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I've tested this against a couple masters league players(I'm diamond so my micro was waaaay worse then theirs) and I held it off so easily on Xel'naga. Even with Zealot warp ins on my ramp.
I also got really close to holding it off on Tal'darim, but I move commanded into his zealots
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On July 05 2011 02:51 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 20:25 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote: safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s 3 Stalkers is nothing safe. If you don't find the proxy pylons, if he has send a hidden probe you don't scout, you are dead. This is just plain false. For example on White-Ra's stream yesterday he held a 4 gate with the 3 Stalker opening into 4 gate. You use your three Stalker advantage to kill off the enemy two Stalkers. Then you produce more and have 5-6 Stalkers as they are warping in units. You continually warp in Stalkers and keep the enemy Stalker count low, and you'll just win. White-Ra did this even with a nearby proxy pylon and two on his low ground. The caveat is that you need to be competent in order to keep your Stalkers alive (even White-Ra blundered a couple times and lost a few unnecessarily). This build would will give you no map presence, and if I see a sentry that early I won't be thinking "I need to hurry up and attack him before he gets his defensive position". I'm thinking "Lets lay down a free Twilight Council and keep total reign over the middle of the map", or something to that effect. You have no offensive potential, and an opponent can lay down an earlier tech structure than you and get an advantage. For example what if I open with an early second assimilator and I see you got a sentry so early, and a later assimilator? I'm definitely going to be controlling the middle of the map looking for proxy pylons everywhere while taking very early tech. What would happen vs the common 3 Stalker opening? They'd have map presence, free reign around the map, an earlier second gas and thusly better economy, more Stalkers, and earlier Blink (or tech of choice). My conclusion is that this build can be good in a single situation (where the enemy ram's their face into you with early offense), but that's it. It doesn't have a solid game plan, doesn't have any deviations depending on information revealed, and doesn't have a way to keep the opponent in check early game. Edit: Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 18:41 Geiko wrote: Double FF the choke, warp in 3 stalkers, and kill off the units. But is this still true with perfect micro in GM league ? GM league players have faaaaar from perfect micro.
I don't think you have to still follow this build after seeing fast tech/non-4gate.
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On July 05 2011 02:51 CecilSunkure wrote:[ This build would will give you no map presence, and if I see a sentry that early I won't be thinking "I need to hurry up and attack him before he gets his defensive position". I'm thinking "Lets lay down a free Twilight Council and keep total reign over the middle of the map", or something to that effect. You have no offensive potential, and an opponent can lay down an earlier tech structure than you and get an advantage. For example what if I open with an early second assimilator and I see you got a sentry so early, and a later assimilator? I'm definitely going to be controlling the middle of the map looking for proxy pylons everywhere while taking very early tech. What would happen vs the common 3 Stalker opening? They'd have map presence, free reign around the map, an earlier second gas and thusly better economy, more Stalkers, and earlier Blink (or tech of choice). My conclusion is that this build can be good in a single situation (where the enemy ram's their face into you with early offense), but that's it. It doesn't have a solid game plan, doesn't have any deviations depending on information revealed, and doesn't have a way to keep the opponent in check early game. Edit: Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 18:41 Geiko wrote: Double FF the choke, warp in 3 stalkers, and kill off the units. But is this still true with perfect micro in GM league ? GM league players have faaaaar from perfect micro.
I'll answer to the ninja edit (three above paragraphs).
A lot of misunderstanding regarding this build I think.
How are you seing my sentry ?
What's wrong with letting a couple of units (3 stalkers) in the middle of the map from 5:00 to 6:00 ?
What's wrong with letting a couple of stalkers around the map from 7:00 (time when earliest blink finishes) to 8:15 (time when your blink finishes) ? That is to say, what's so bad about having blink 1 minute later if you stay in your base ? Is my opponent going to do something to the xelnaga towers when I'm not looking ? The important part about blink vs blink is stalker count, and I won't be behind on that.
You seem to miss the point of the build which is to counter a straight up 4 gate build. If you are going to take your gas at some crazy early timing, I won't be making a sentry... Same if I see you going for the three stalker rush which is the easiest thing in the book to scout. Some people have said that you can make a blink stalker rush and still 4 gate, first of all that's not true if you are chrono boosting your stalker, second of all, I can also cancel my gas and 4 gate myself with one chrono boost less, how is that any different ?
You're also wrong about the part where 3 stalker rush gets an earlier second gas, as a matter of fact my gas is 15 seconds earlier than a 3 stalker rush.
Regarding the fact that it has no early aggression possibility and no map control, maybe you missed the fact that I can have 6 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry at your ramp at 6:25 and total map control from 6:00 to 7:00. And total map control from 6:00 to much later if he isn't going blink.
I'd love to hear some clarifications on your point of view because we are not understanding each other well
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On July 05 2011 01:50 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 01:20 CCalms wrote:On July 04 2011 20:34 blah_blah wrote:On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote: safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s I don't understand this post at all. If someone does the 3 stalker opening, it diverges from a 4gate opening quite early (double chrono on probes and early second gateway) at which point (upon scouting) you are no longer obligated to follow this build order at all. Someone doing a 3 stalker opening is much better for you than someone doing a 1gate tech build. OP: great post, thanks a lot. 9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core 19 gate 20 stalker, warpgate 22 two stalkers 26 two gates 26 proxy pylon 5:42 warp in 3 stalker 1 zealot Same exact outcome as conventional 4gate despite opening 3stalker I don't know why people try and act like they know something that I don't LOL I brought up 3 stalker instead of a 1gate tech build because 3 stalker is 100% safe vs 4gate, as this build claims to be, but has a much better economy and allows for much more early game flexibility (3stalker can stop 10gate 4gates by following up the 3 stalkers with 2 stalkers instead of 2 sentries) and geiko, you obviously don't know how to 3 stalker properly. I absolutely do not need to kill the proxy, simply zone it away from my ramp. 10 starcraft meters away is absolutely fine with me. I can also use the early unit advantage to pick off units, which is helpful. try doing the 3 stalker opening, only chrono the first stalker and rest on warpgate. after the two stalkers are done (three total) start two sentries. warpgate will be done right when those are finished, warp in one stalker and one sentry. No warpgate rush can break you and you are free to tech. If you think I'm wrong or naive or don't have gm level pvp then feel free to pm me about it or play me at CCalms.951 On July 05 2011 01:11 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:02 sjschmidt93 wrote: There is no safe PvP to be honest. Yeah this may hold a 4gate but if your opponent goes 1 gate robo or 1 gate council you're very very far behind. Their blink will finish much quicker than yours, and if they go robo they can easily expo no problem after colossus production kicks in.
If you expand, then they just 2 colossus no range push or 3 colossus w/ range push and your dead, unless you managed to squeeze in a robo and wanna go for the blink stalker/colossus base trade, but even then that game almost never works. Opponents going 1 gate council doesn't put me behind. Like I said, their blink will finish 1 minute earlier than mine, so what ? They still can't bust up my ramp if I am playing defensively. Against 1 gate robo, and colo timing pushes, they are still leaving their base open to a base trade situation. If I have taken a far away expansion I will come out ahead of the base trade. If they wait too long for their push, then my zealot archon + mass blink stalkers can win against 3,4 colo army. The blink harass style of play has nothing to do with your build, it only serves as the only real viable follow up (too much gas spent on stalkers to go into other tech efficiently). If someone else does a more intelligible blink build then you just die. All it takes is one less stalker early game (or two-four, in your build's case) to have the fight snowball into a one-sided blinkfest. If the other guy goes robo, it has absolutely nothing to do with your build but rather his ability to know how to deal with blink harass and set up an expansion and sim city. You're really mixing up two builds which are quite clearly reconizable. I believe the 3 stalker rush spends a lot of chronoboost on the stalkers while the build you are giving here that is supposed to hit a 5:42 timing obviously has all the chronoboost spent on warpgate. If you can't tell that a 3 stalker "rush" is late by 20 seconds, then clearly we are not playing at the same level. Also I would need you to explain to me why my build is 4 stalkers late ? That doesn't make any sense to me.
I compared your build with my blink build and I get a significantly faster blink with more stalkers and no sentry or zealot. the sentry and zealot are completely useless in blink vs blink, because the only power that blink stalkers have is their longevity.
Three stalker build only uses one chrono on first stalker. chronoboost each one is so stupid, there is no point, you will have all three out long before his second stalker is on your side of the map so punishing proxies is easy. Might as well get the fast warpgate and be able to transition into 4gate if needed. I've never seen a pro player open two gateways and chrono three times on gateways, that's beyond unintuitive.
CLEARLY we're not playing on the same level LOL. If you want to try and insult my "level" then we can just try your build vs 19 gateway 20 gas opener and see that yours is unnecessarily safe and engendering a low-eco midgame.
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This is a solid build. No it’s not 100% failproof. No it isn’t revolutionary, and no it will not change PvP. But yes, it does what it says it does, and it’s a great option to have in your arsenal of PvP builds.
I think what most people are missing here is the fact that you can’t immediately scout the sentry. You can only scout that sentry with a 1z/1s poke, but this build gets the 1z/1s the same time you do, and your forces will meet somewhere in the middle of the map. As a 4 gater, you can’t just run for your opponent’s ramp and try to place your initial proxy pylons right under their ramp, because that’s suicide against most builds. So while yes, getting the sentry will have trouble defending against a 4 gate where the initial proxy pylon is placed right below your ramp, that’s not going to happen unless your opponent is dumb or just blindly lucky/reckless.
Also, on most maps that second stalker from the 4 gater is not going to make it to the other ramp in time to defend the proxy pylons that are getting set up there, even if you start the 2nd stalker before the 3 additional gateways. Maybe it’s possible on close air metal, I’m not sure, but the majority of maps that stalker is going to join the battle way too late for it to make a big difference.
When playing this build against a greedy tech build, you don’t need to follow this build exactly. You can skip your sentry, you don’t have to cut probes, you can get your tech building earlier, etc.
When comparing this build against the 3 stalker build for defending against 4 gates, both have their sleight disadvantages and advantages. Both will put you at a great advantage against a 4 gate, effectively “countering” it, but neither is 100% safe and it will ultimately come down to micro. Basically it’s personal preference. The main feature about this build that I like over the 3 stalker build is the fact that you get a zealot with this one. That initial zealot puts you at a little better position against unscouted cheese, it’s better for defending against a super early warpgate rush (10/11 gate), and if you’re ever poking up your opponent’s ramp to scout at any time (whether it’s with 1z/1s, or 1z many s), it’s always better to poke up with a zealot than risk losing a stalker to a FF.
My variation of this build is to actually start off exactly like a standard 12 gate 4 gate. I spend only 2 chronos on the nexus, and I won’t start my 2nd gas until after I’ve chased away the scouting probe. If I don’t see my opponent 4 gating, I either cancel my sentry or don’t even get a sentry. So against a tech build I’ll be technically behind in gas, but effectively ahead since I did not make any sentries.
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On July 05 2011 09:04 CCalms wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 01:50 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:20 CCalms wrote:On July 04 2011 20:34 blah_blah wrote:On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote: safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s I don't understand this post at all. If someone does the 3 stalker opening, it diverges from a 4gate opening quite early (double chrono on probes and early second gateway) at which point (upon scouting) you are no longer obligated to follow this build order at all. Someone doing a 3 stalker opening is much better for you than someone doing a 1gate tech build. OP: great post, thanks a lot. 9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core 19 gate 20 stalker, warpgate 22 two stalkers 26 two gates 26 proxy pylon 5:42 warp in 3 stalker 1 zealot Same exact outcome as conventional 4gate despite opening 3stalker I don't know why people try and act like they know something that I don't LOL I brought up 3 stalker instead of a 1gate tech build because 3 stalker is 100% safe vs 4gate, as this build claims to be, but has a much better economy and allows for much more early game flexibility (3stalker can stop 10gate 4gates by following up the 3 stalkers with 2 stalkers instead of 2 sentries) and geiko, you obviously don't know how to 3 stalker properly. I absolutely do not need to kill the proxy, simply zone it away from my ramp. 10 starcraft meters away is absolutely fine with me. I can also use the early unit advantage to pick off units, which is helpful. try doing the 3 stalker opening, only chrono the first stalker and rest on warpgate. after the two stalkers are done (three total) start two sentries. warpgate will be done right when those are finished, warp in one stalker and one sentry. No warpgate rush can break you and you are free to tech. If you think I'm wrong or naive or don't have gm level pvp then feel free to pm me about it or play me at CCalms.951 On July 05 2011 01:11 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:02 sjschmidt93 wrote: There is no safe PvP to be honest. Yeah this may hold a 4gate but if your opponent goes 1 gate robo or 1 gate council you're very very far behind. Their blink will finish much quicker than yours, and if they go robo they can easily expo no problem after colossus production kicks in.
If you expand, then they just 2 colossus no range push or 3 colossus w/ range push and your dead, unless you managed to squeeze in a robo and wanna go for the blink stalker/colossus base trade, but even then that game almost never works. Opponents going 1 gate council doesn't put me behind. Like I said, their blink will finish 1 minute earlier than mine, so what ? They still can't bust up my ramp if I am playing defensively. Against 1 gate robo, and colo timing pushes, they are still leaving their base open to a base trade situation. If I have taken a far away expansion I will come out ahead of the base trade. If they wait too long for their push, then my zealot archon + mass blink stalkers can win against 3,4 colo army. The blink harass style of play has nothing to do with your build, it only serves as the only real viable follow up (too much gas spent on stalkers to go into other tech efficiently). If someone else does a more intelligible blink build then you just die. All it takes is one less stalker early game (or two-four, in your build's case) to have the fight snowball into a one-sided blinkfest. If the other guy goes robo, it has absolutely nothing to do with your build but rather his ability to know how to deal with blink harass and set up an expansion and sim city. You're really mixing up two builds which are quite clearly reconizable. I believe the 3 stalker rush spends a lot of chronoboost on the stalkers while the build you are giving here that is supposed to hit a 5:42 timing obviously has all the chronoboost spent on warpgate. If you can't tell that a 3 stalker "rush" is late by 20 seconds, then clearly we are not playing at the same level. Also I would need you to explain to me why my build is 4 stalkers late ? That doesn't make any sense to me. I compared your build with my blink build and I get a significantly faster blink with more stalkers and no sentry or zealot. the sentry and zealot are completely useless in blink vs blink, because the only power that blink stalkers have is their longevity. Three stalker build only uses one chrono on first stalker. chronoboost each one is so stupid, there is no point, you will have all three out long before his second stalker is on your side of the map so punishing proxies is easy. Might as well get the fast warpgate and be able to transition into 4gate if needed. I've never seen a pro player open two gateways and chrono three times on gateways, that's beyond unintuitive. CLEARLY we're not playing on the same level LOL. If you want to try and insult my "level" then we can just try your build vs 19 gateway 20 gas opener and see that yours is unnecessarily safe and engendering a low-eco midgame.
Do you even read what I answer or are you just doing your thing ? ^^ 3 stalker rush = no sentry for me. No point in comparing your pure blink stalker build to a build I won't be doing against it.
Regarding the chronoboosts, i was referring to this thread : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192658 where obvisouly pro players are using 3 chronoboosts on stalkers (but maybe you are on another level than them, sorry).
A zealot is mandatory in blink play if you're going to try to go up my ramp as well.
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On July 05 2011 09:13 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 09:04 CCalms wrote:On July 05 2011 01:50 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:20 CCalms wrote:On July 04 2011 20:34 blah_blah wrote:On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote: safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s I don't understand this post at all. If someone does the 3 stalker opening, it diverges from a 4gate opening quite early (double chrono on probes and early second gateway) at which point (upon scouting) you are no longer obligated to follow this build order at all. Someone doing a 3 stalker opening is much better for you than someone doing a 1gate tech build. OP: great post, thanks a lot. 9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core 19 gate 20 stalker, warpgate 22 two stalkers 26 two gates 26 proxy pylon 5:42 warp in 3 stalker 1 zealot Same exact outcome as conventional 4gate despite opening 3stalker I don't know why people try and act like they know something that I don't LOL I brought up 3 stalker instead of a 1gate tech build because 3 stalker is 100% safe vs 4gate, as this build claims to be, but has a much better economy and allows for much more early game flexibility (3stalker can stop 10gate 4gates by following up the 3 stalkers with 2 stalkers instead of 2 sentries) and geiko, you obviously don't know how to 3 stalker properly. I absolutely do not need to kill the proxy, simply zone it away from my ramp. 10 starcraft meters away is absolutely fine with me. I can also use the early unit advantage to pick off units, which is helpful. try doing the 3 stalker opening, only chrono the first stalker and rest on warpgate. after the two stalkers are done (three total) start two sentries. warpgate will be done right when those are finished, warp in one stalker and one sentry. No warpgate rush can break you and you are free to tech. If you think I'm wrong or naive or don't have gm level pvp then feel free to pm me about it or play me at CCalms.951 On July 05 2011 01:11 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:02 sjschmidt93 wrote: There is no safe PvP to be honest. Yeah this may hold a 4gate but if your opponent goes 1 gate robo or 1 gate council you're very very far behind. Their blink will finish much quicker than yours, and if they go robo they can easily expo no problem after colossus production kicks in.
If you expand, then they just 2 colossus no range push or 3 colossus w/ range push and your dead, unless you managed to squeeze in a robo and wanna go for the blink stalker/colossus base trade, but even then that game almost never works. Opponents going 1 gate council doesn't put me behind. Like I said, their blink will finish 1 minute earlier than mine, so what ? They still can't bust up my ramp if I am playing defensively. Against 1 gate robo, and colo timing pushes, they are still leaving their base open to a base trade situation. If I have taken a far away expansion I will come out ahead of the base trade. If they wait too long for their push, then my zealot archon + mass blink stalkers can win against 3,4 colo army. The blink harass style of play has nothing to do with your build, it only serves as the only real viable follow up (too much gas spent on stalkers to go into other tech efficiently). If someone else does a more intelligible blink build then you just die. All it takes is one less stalker early game (or two-four, in your build's case) to have the fight snowball into a one-sided blinkfest. If the other guy goes robo, it has absolutely nothing to do with your build but rather his ability to know how to deal with blink harass and set up an expansion and sim city. You're really mixing up two builds which are quite clearly reconizable. I believe the 3 stalker rush spends a lot of chronoboost on the stalkers while the build you are giving here that is supposed to hit a 5:42 timing obviously has all the chronoboost spent on warpgate. If you can't tell that a 3 stalker "rush" is late by 20 seconds, then clearly we are not playing at the same level. Also I would need you to explain to me why my build is 4 stalkers late ? That doesn't make any sense to me. I compared your build with my blink build and I get a significantly faster blink with more stalkers and no sentry or zealot. the sentry and zealot are completely useless in blink vs blink, because the only power that blink stalkers have is their longevity. Three stalker build only uses one chrono on first stalker. chronoboost each one is so stupid, there is no point, you will have all three out long before his second stalker is on your side of the map so punishing proxies is easy. Might as well get the fast warpgate and be able to transition into 4gate if needed. I've never seen a pro player open two gateways and chrono three times on gateways, that's beyond unintuitive. CLEARLY we're not playing on the same level LOL. If you want to try and insult my "level" then we can just try your build vs 19 gateway 20 gas opener and see that yours is unnecessarily safe and engendering a low-eco midgame. Do you even read what I answer or are you just doing your thing ? ^^ 3 stalker rush = no sentry for me. Regarding the chronoboosts, i was referring to this thread : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192658where obvisouly pro players are using 3 chronoboosts on stalkers (but maybe you are on another level than them, sorry). A zealot is mandatory in blink play if you're going to try to go up my ramp as well.
Dude, look at that thread you just linked, I helped Cecil work out the build order, I'm IN THE OP LOL.
A zealot is mandatory in blink play? wtf? Why can't that role be replaced by a stalker that can blink back down or provide vision depending on how safe it is to attack up the ramp? I feel like I'm talking to someone who has never gone blink before.
I'm going to get temp banned if I keep talking to you tbh. If you like this build then all the power to you.
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On July 05 2011 09:20 CCalms wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 09:13 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 09:04 CCalms wrote:On July 05 2011 01:50 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:20 CCalms wrote:On July 04 2011 20:34 blah_blah wrote:On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote: safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s I don't understand this post at all. If someone does the 3 stalker opening, it diverges from a 4gate opening quite early (double chrono on probes and early second gateway) at which point (upon scouting) you are no longer obligated to follow this build order at all. Someone doing a 3 stalker opening is much better for you than someone doing a 1gate tech build. OP: great post, thanks a lot. 9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core 19 gate 20 stalker, warpgate 22 two stalkers 26 two gates 26 proxy pylon 5:42 warp in 3 stalker 1 zealot Same exact outcome as conventional 4gate despite opening 3stalker I don't know why people try and act like they know something that I don't LOL I brought up 3 stalker instead of a 1gate tech build because 3 stalker is 100% safe vs 4gate, as this build claims to be, but has a much better economy and allows for much more early game flexibility (3stalker can stop 10gate 4gates by following up the 3 stalkers with 2 stalkers instead of 2 sentries) and geiko, you obviously don't know how to 3 stalker properly. I absolutely do not need to kill the proxy, simply zone it away from my ramp. 10 starcraft meters away is absolutely fine with me. I can also use the early unit advantage to pick off units, which is helpful. try doing the 3 stalker opening, only chrono the first stalker and rest on warpgate. after the two stalkers are done (three total) start two sentries. warpgate will be done right when those are finished, warp in one stalker and one sentry. No warpgate rush can break you and you are free to tech. If you think I'm wrong or naive or don't have gm level pvp then feel free to pm me about it or play me at CCalms.951 On July 05 2011 01:11 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:02 sjschmidt93 wrote: There is no safe PvP to be honest. Yeah this may hold a 4gate but if your opponent goes 1 gate robo or 1 gate council you're very very far behind. Their blink will finish much quicker than yours, and if they go robo they can easily expo no problem after colossus production kicks in.
If you expand, then they just 2 colossus no range push or 3 colossus w/ range push and your dead, unless you managed to squeeze in a robo and wanna go for the blink stalker/colossus base trade, but even then that game almost never works. Opponents going 1 gate council doesn't put me behind. Like I said, their blink will finish 1 minute earlier than mine, so what ? They still can't bust up my ramp if I am playing defensively. Against 1 gate robo, and colo timing pushes, they are still leaving their base open to a base trade situation. If I have taken a far away expansion I will come out ahead of the base trade. If they wait too long for their push, then my zealot archon + mass blink stalkers can win against 3,4 colo army. The blink harass style of play has nothing to do with your build, it only serves as the only real viable follow up (too much gas spent on stalkers to go into other tech efficiently). If someone else does a more intelligible blink build then you just die. All it takes is one less stalker early game (or two-four, in your build's case) to have the fight snowball into a one-sided blinkfest. If the other guy goes robo, it has absolutely nothing to do with your build but rather his ability to know how to deal with blink harass and set up an expansion and sim city. You're really mixing up two builds which are quite clearly reconizable. I believe the 3 stalker rush spends a lot of chronoboost on the stalkers while the build you are giving here that is supposed to hit a 5:42 timing obviously has all the chronoboost spent on warpgate. If you can't tell that a 3 stalker "rush" is late by 20 seconds, then clearly we are not playing at the same level. Also I would need you to explain to me why my build is 4 stalkers late ? That doesn't make any sense to me. I compared your build with my blink build and I get a significantly faster blink with more stalkers and no sentry or zealot. the sentry and zealot are completely useless in blink vs blink, because the only power that blink stalkers have is their longevity. Three stalker build only uses one chrono on first stalker. chronoboost each one is so stupid, there is no point, you will have all three out long before his second stalker is on your side of the map so punishing proxies is easy. Might as well get the fast warpgate and be able to transition into 4gate if needed. I've never seen a pro player open two gateways and chrono three times on gateways, that's beyond unintuitive. CLEARLY we're not playing on the same level LOL. If you want to try and insult my "level" then we can just try your build vs 19 gateway 20 gas opener and see that yours is unnecessarily safe and engendering a low-eco midgame. Do you even read what I answer or are you just doing your thing ? ^^ 3 stalker rush = no sentry for me. Regarding the chronoboosts, i was referring to this thread : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192658where obvisouly pro players are using 3 chronoboosts on stalkers (but maybe you are on another level than them, sorry). A zealot is mandatory in blink play if you're going to try to go up my ramp as well. Dude, look at that thread you just linked, I helped Cecil work out the build order, I'm IN THE OP LOL. A zealot is mandatory in blink play? wtf? Why can't that role be replaced by a stalker that can blink back down or provide vision depending on how safe it is to attack up the ramp? I feel like I'm talking to someone who has never gone blink before. I'm going to get temp banned if I keep talking to you tbh. If you like this build then all the power to you.
Did you purposefully give out a wrong BO in the thread then so you could have an edge on people ? ^^ It says right here : "Note: Every single stalker has one chronoboost, the sentry has one chronoboost, and the immortal has two chronoboost. Only two initial chronoboosts are spent on the Nexus."
All the pro replays I have seen include the offensive blink player sending in a zealot or 2 to tank damage and gain vision. This is justified by the fact that you are eventually going to run out of gas and tanking with a zealot (which has longer longevity than a stalker vs stalker / immortals ) is a good thing. Going up the ramp with one stalker will give you vision for exactly 0.5 seconds before it gets either shot down, or blinked back.
Seriously though, no need to get angry like that, we're just discussing a starcraft build. And yes I have played with blink, no I don't play at super high level, but yes I've beaten some top master, and some GM players with blink play.
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Looks a very well-thought out and well-described build, but I feel better about just going 3 gate robo.
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On July 05 2011 09:34 Cloud9157 wrote: Looks a very well-thought out and well-described build, but I feel better about just going 3 gate robo.
Isn't this a 3gate robo build?
._.
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Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry?
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United States8476 Posts
I like the build. It's pretty well thought out and obviously has been refined a bit.
3 constructive criticisms I have about this build though: 1. You're so close to being able to fake a 4 gate. Why not spend one less chorno on probes and let your opponent know that there's still a threat of 4 gate?
2. It seems like if your opponent is faking a 4 gate, you have no choice but to make 6 stalkers if you want to hope to be safe. This is compared to a few other 3 gate builds that I know which can defend 4 gate with a minimal initial investment of 3-4 stalkers. I feel a 6 stalker investment almost locks you into blink stalker play.
3. Another thing is that with this build, I feel like your tech structure, ie robo, twilight, stargate, is very delayed compared to some other builds. This vastly reduces the effectiveness of both robo and stargate, particularly stargate and is another reason your build heavily favors blink play.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry?
No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3.
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i think theres a way to skip warpgate research, get slightly faster gateways, and use all chrono on the gateways to get out even more units and then since you didnt spend 50/50 on warpgates, it means your robo only costs essentially 150/50, pretty darn cheap.
or look at it this way. your enemy spends 200/50 on his 4th gateway + warpgates, you spend 200/100 on your robo.
now you are in a position where your enemy has 4 gates, and you have 3gates + robo, and since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter. all of your money off 1base can easily be consumed by 3gate+robo
try work on a build like that. it should be able to defend a 4gate just fine and be more powerful against a toss that opened 2gate robo
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On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: i think theres a way to skip warpgate research, get slightly faster gateways, and use all chrono on the gateways to get out even more units and then since you didnt spend 50/50 on warpgates, it means your robo only costs essentially 150/50, pretty darn cheap.
or look at it this way. your enemy spends 200/50 on his 4th gateway + warpgates, you spend 200/100 on your robo.
now you are in a position where your enemy has 4 gates, and you have 3gates + robo, and since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter. all of your money off 1base can easily be consumed by 3gate+robo
try work on a build like that. it should be able to defend a 4gate just fine and be more powerful against a toss that opened 2gate robo
Wasn't there a 3 Gate Build similar to what you're talking about? "5 Zealots 8 Stalkers".
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On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote: I like the build. It's pretty well thought out and obviously has been refined a bit.
3 constructive criticisms I have about this build though: 1. You're so close to being able to fake a 4 gate. Why not spend one less chorno on probes and let your opponent know that there's still a threat of 4 gate?
2. It seems like if your opponent is faking a 4 gate, you have no choice but to make 6 stalkers if you want to hope to be safe. This is compared to a few other 3 gate builds that defend 4 gate that I know which can defend 4 gate with a minimal initial investment of 3-4 stalkers. I'm not saying that other builds can defend and don't require you to have 6 stalkers initially. I feel a 6 stalker investment almost locks you into blink stalker play.
3. Another thing is that with this build, I feel like your tech structure, ie robo, twilight, stargate, is very delayed compared to some other builds. This vastly reduces the effectiveness of both robo and stargate, particularly stargate and is another reason your build heavily favors blink play.
Hehe, those were my exact criticisms as well. I commented about #1 in my earlier post, and about #2 and #3, you're completely right - in the first version of this guide, it was only designed to follow up with blink stalkers and blink stalkers is indeed the best transition. I think the point is though that in certain circumstances where robo may be better (i.e. close positions on some maps, or your opponent has a history of going DTs), it's still "ok" to go robo after the 3 gate opening after this build. Or when you face an obviously-not-4 gate, you can easily go robo or stargate much earlier and not be behind.
On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter
False.
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On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False.
Is it because a Warpgate-user can churn out units faster (especially with chronoboost)? Can you explain please?
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On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False.
true to an extent
3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point
lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo
4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas
3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas
both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment
however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately
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On July 05 2011 11:31 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. Is it because a Warpgate-user can churn out units faster (especially with chronoboost)?
With warpgate against non-warpgate, the warpgate user will always have an additional cycle of units more than the non-warpgate user. Being on the defensive or aggressive side is irrelevant due to warpgates and proxy pylons.
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On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately
No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate.
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On July 05 2011 11:35 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:31 iChau wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. Is it because a Warpgate-user can churn out units faster (especially with chronoboost)? With warpgate against non-warpgate, the warpgate user will always have an additional cycle of units more than the non-warpgate user. Being on the defensive or aggressive side is irrelevant due to warpgates and proxy pylons.
but that only matters for the first fight, and the warpgate user only has about 20 seconds before chronoboosted production of the 3gate/robo player gives him his defense, and then you have to consider the warpgater would have to micro back to his proxy pylon in order to benefit from his reinforcements thus creating the same scenario. but you also have to consider the 3gate robo user can chrono out 1-2 more units insteadof spending the 50/50 and chrono on his warpgates, meaning the warpgater only probably has 2-3 bonus units max which wont win the fight against immortals
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On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate.
we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo
yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about.
im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted
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You'll still need WGs if you want to be aggressive though.
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On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote: I like the build. It's pretty well thought out and obviously has been refined a bit.
3 constructive criticisms I have about this build though: 1. You're so close to being able to fake a 4 gate. Why not spend one less chorno on probes and let your opponent know that there's still a threat of 4 gate?
2. It seems like if your opponent is faking a 4 gate, you have no choice but to make 6 stalkers if you want to hope to be safe. This is compared to a few other 3 gate builds that defend 4 gate that I know which can defend 4 gate with a minimal initial investment of 3-4 stalkers. I'm not saying that other builds can defend and don't require you to have 6 stalkers initially. I feel a 6 stalker investment almost locks you into blink stalker play.
3. Another thing is that with this build, I feel like your tech structure, ie robo, twilight, stargate, is very delayed compared to some other builds. This vastly reduces the effectiveness of both robo and stargate, particularly stargate and is another reason your build heavily favors blink play.
All three of your points are very good ones. Faking a 4 gate will result in 15 seconds late gas (30 or so gas less) which is totally acceptable if it results in a chance for your opponent to play less greedy. Personally, I feel like people have become less scared of 4 gate and keep doing their greedy build anyways to try and get an edge late game and have a build that can somehow hold 4 gate if they micro well correctly and can delay the warp ins a little bit. It's personal preference, I think it is very viable to fake the 4 gate (in fact I put it in the BO)
Second point isn't so true, you basically decide whether and when you want the extra stalkers. If I am going robo tech with this for example, I put my robo down. If I am having a micro battle with initial stalker zealot, I will see whether or not he puts a proxy pylon down. A good warp gate will reach your ramp by the time you have to decide whether or not to warp in your first round of units so you really never have a time when you have to warp in 3 blind stalkers.
As for point 3, I agree with the reduced effectiveness for an offensive purpose. For example, you will not be able to reach one of those phoenix + 3 gate timings to bust up ramps for example. Neither will you be able to execute a 2 immortal 2 colo push. However defensively you will be fine. robo vs robo for example, if your opponent has a very early robo (tyler build) he will need to get 1 or 2 immortals out before starting colo production just to stay alive. With my build, you don't need to get an immortal and can immediately tech to colossus thus you won't be late in the colossus count. Of course you will be at a disadvantage vs crazy toss players who just straight up tech to colo without being safe at all, but that's the coin toss aspect of PvP that we can't change. Same with stargate play, you won't be making non stop air units until the end of the time (I don't have much experience with stargate play but massing phoenixes hasn't really paid off for me... I find that getting 4 or 5 is the right number before they start losing in efficiency), so eventually delaying the tech isn't that bad. Keep in mind that for robo and stargate, you are building the structures at ~5:20 (which isn't that late when compared to other relatively safe builds)
But you are indeed right in saying that blink transition is the most natural one. For very high level PvP, I would always recommend to go with blink if doing this build. Low master and under, you can easily pull off any of the tech transitions I mentionned. i wanted this to be an "all level guide to playing safely" so I added the ways to play robo and stargate as well. And incidentally, some situations may require you to go robo for the robo transition.
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On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted
I've never tried skipping warpgate entirely so I'm not entirely sure, but since gateway units take 40 seconds to build, that means that to catch up the warp-in cycle deficit you have, you need to use 4 chrono boosts on every gate ? I can see how with chrono boost you can get 1 extra unit out, but surely not a full cycle on all three of your gates ?
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On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research.
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On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research.
i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol
i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing
heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride
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On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride
I think that's a good idea. I personally feel like 3-4 units down for 20+ seconds is win/lose. I'd like to know if it's possible to hold without. Maybe if your control is superior to the 4gater, but I wouldn't want to rely on such an uphill battle. Battles are decided in 20 seconds and being down 4 units is quite a bit. when you only have so many.
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On July 05 2011 12:22 To3-Knee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride I think that's a good idea. I personally feel like 3-4 units down for 20+ seconds is win/lose. I'd like to know if it's possible to hold without. Maybe if your control is superior to the 4gater, but I wouldn't want to rely on such an uphill battle. Battles are decided in 20 seconds and being down 4 units is quite a bit. when you only have so many.
he has 3 extra units max because all of my chronoboost goes to my units, he uses some on his warpgate (and if he doesnt, i have a immortal by the time his 4gate hits). so he has max 3 more units than me, and i have reinforcements coming out in 20 seconds (plus an immortal most likely). so he has 20 seconds to do as much damage as he can before i got my immortal out. . its actually less than 20 when you factor in walking distance from his proxy pylon to my base
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On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride
How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve.
I'm online now, coLrsvp.138
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Seeing as this is supposed to be a safe build, the only tech structure you ever want to be doing is robo. But that doesn't mean you have to commit to immortals or colossi, you can simply get an observer and tech to something else. Nightend used to do robo->stargate, but I don't think it's any good now that people have figured out how phoenix play works. Players like Huk and Kiwi like to get obs into blink. It lets you have enough stalkers to defend any blink rushes, shuts down dt openings and gives you map control against other robo users (even before blink, he can't go into the open with your superior stalker count).
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On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138
I'd just like to say that I love this. Can I watch? ^^
And I used this build pre-patch. Standard, safe, solid, but I almost feel it's too safe. Play that doesn't cut any corners isn't bad necessarily, but if you know what corners to cut, you can do very well. I liked it better when 4 gate was more common. Still, good build to know about.
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I'm eagerly awaiting the replays. I'd be somewhat suprised wet my pants if I saw someone win with a strat that defends a 4-gate without researching WG.
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On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 gogo
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Just wanted to offer my thanks for this build. Have been using it does indeed stop 4gates in their tracks. The actual unit advantage is necessary for me as my micro is poor.
I also wanted to say, as someone who used the 3 stalker rush fairly often, it's use against the 4gate with pretty difficult for me. I sometimes missed the pylon and ended up losing to a 4gate in any case. I'm not saying it's a problem with the build, but in execution, it was not something you could guarantee to get right 100% of the time. At least this is something I can do.
Thank you again.
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On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138
I can't believe this guy actually thinks he can beat you lol
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On July 05 2011 18:06 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 I can't believe this guy actually thinks he can beat you lol
I think he just wanted to pay 20$ to play a Bo3 with a top player ^^ Depending on how much he values his TL account, I think a strat forum ban will be of much bigger value to him than 20$ Keep us posted on how this goes guys !
On a side note, these Bo3 showdowns don't actually tell us once and for all who was right, but they sure are a lot of fun. If it were that easy, I'd gladly challenge a couple of posters who have criticized this build ^^
Incidentally, I'm still waiting for Cecil's answer on the points I have mentioned in my last post to him. He is one of the posters whose opinion I value the most and I’d be very sad if he left the thread without clarifying some points
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On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138
i just got back home. we can do this in a couple days or so. or whenever were both not busy.
how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me
the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge
but yeah totally. im all up for it. sure we can play a bo3 PvP some time soon and if i lose i am no longer allowed in the strats forum (and ill also give you 20 bucks if you want, if i lose)
here will be the rules for the PvP bo3. there are no rules. treat it like a ladder game. Im not trying to show what beats a 4gate or anything (which is what i was talking about earlier) im not doing this to prove what can beat a 4gate or anything, i challenged you because of you talking like im a low calibur player. so thats what this bo3 is about. so the purpose of this bo3 is not to prove some kind of strategy or anything, its just for me to show i dont suck lol. so the rules of this PvP bo3 is we can treat it like a ladder game, no rules, but the map rules can be we start on taldar arim and after that loser picks map (mlg metal, mlg shakuras, taldar arim, and mlg shattered are map options)
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On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote: how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me I believe the mods have an option that allows them to ban you from the strat forum only, which should have much the same effect and doesn't require Saracen to keep track of where you're posting.
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On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3.
Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right?
So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas?
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On July 05 2011 20:04 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote: how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me I believe the mods have an option that allows them to ban you from the strat forum only, which should have much the same effect and doesn't require Saracen to keep track of where you're posting. This is correct - you can see forum-specific bans in the ban thread. It's been a godsend for the strategy forum.
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How does this build work against 2g robo? It seems too me that you'd fall behind in tech against all robo play.
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On July 05 2011 21:41 Sina92 wrote: How does this build work against 2g robo? It seems too me that you'd fall behind in tech against all robo play.
2 gate robo doesn't really mean anything... What build are you refering to ? It really depends on the robo timings, probe cuts, 2nd gas timing etc...
Yes against straight up tech builds that aren't safe against anything this build will be a little behind. Vs most builds that take 4 gating into account, you will be on equal grounds gas and tech wise.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote: the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge
He's talking to you like like you're a low caliber player because you're acting like it. Every top player would agree you're completely off base and just bringing this topic down with uninformed opinions. According to the strategy forum guidelines, you shouldn't be speaking if you don't know what you're talking about.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas?
This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:10 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:40 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates.
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I've found that I like to start the zealot and just cancel it to confuse my opponents as they will a) think I am 4 gating for a while or b)start it and in the case of scouted cheese don't cancel it. If things go as they should, I cancel it and throw down a second gateway and go for a delayed 3 stalker count, plus sentry, and warp in 3 more stalkers at the same time 4gate warps its first actual round in.
Of course this is even more "risky" than the build mentioned in the OP but assuming you're diamond league or above you can probably forcefield your ramp and split a clumpy army in half or more quite easily and squeeze out a higher and higher unit advantage... The difference is you get 26-27 probes around 6 minutes instead of that zealot. I chronoboost the nexus twice and then my gateways for cheese, or my cybernetics for warpgate vs a scouted likely 4gate. I like going into robo because a common backup plan from failure 4gate is often blink stalkers or dts to edge out an eventual expansion/kill you, either of which you can easily handle with this build by getting immortals/observers to defend the highground, and get your own blink at your own leisure because you'll have been getting more gas all game.
I have tested this build and with the second gas and probe advantage you can actually build the robo after the first forcefield army micro split at the ramp... and still continue to outproduce your enemy.
I've had people try to contain me while expanding(one gas -> sentry into tech+expand?)... but then i just walk across the map and kill them so...
This build is not possible on a map like taldarim, which has no ramp. You're pretty much forced into playing safe as possible there, or as dangerous as possible.
I'm not a fan of cannon rushing, or proxy zealoting. I feel like a gold level player can take games off masters or even grand master players with the right luck using these no skill strategies.
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So what happens when you realise you're behind because the opponent goes a tech heavy build eg. fast colossus? Expand probably? You do have more gateways and units after all so you should be safe for the time being.
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On July 04 2011 21:10 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 21:02 ThatGuy89 wrote:On July 04 2011 20:47 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 20:41 ThatGuy89 wrote: wow looks nice. If you've engineered this build yourself youve done really well with all the timings. This only works against a 4 gate though doesnt it? if he goes gate robo gate gate and gets immortals and then techs to collosus. Or if he straight up rushes to DT, youre gonna be far behind arent you? It depends what you mean by far behind. You won't be behind in gas which is what PvP is all about. You'll be a bit behind if you chose twilight tech, as blink vs robo is hard to play. But not greatly behind. The rock-scisor-paper aspect of PvP isn't something that can be solved through a build order, but this is the BO that I like to do to still be able to keep up in tech if I chose the wrong tech path. I explained how to deal with DTs, but the most effective way of stopping it is with good intuition that they are coming (poking, scouting with probes etc...) And yeah I did work on those timings alone (took me a lot of time optimising so everything would fall into place at 5:50) so do you just do this in every pvp you play? or do you have to scout something that makes you do this? i know in the 10 gate game you scouted what he was doing, but what if you scout and maybe see him throw down a robo. Would you just abandon this altogether? what about on tal darim, would you do this on that map too? This build is tailored to be safe against standard 12 gate 14 gaz 16 core 17/18 zealot openings. Incidentally, it also works vs 10 gate openings (single gate). However you will have to adapt against a heavy gas play, or 2 gate play. (and as said above no zealot). Since the build is entirely standard up to the point where you scout, this shouldn't be a problem. Regarding Tal Darim and Scrap, as I've said, I'm not too sure. With good micro maybe... At least in the lower divisions I would definitely do this as the 4 gate is always 15 to 20 seconds late. Top level PvP, this probably isn't viable on maps with no ramp.
What is your response to a 2 gate with this build?
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Canada13372 Posts
On July 05 2011 23:32 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 21:10 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 21:02 ThatGuy89 wrote:On July 04 2011 20:47 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 20:41 ThatGuy89 wrote: wow looks nice. If you've engineered this build yourself youve done really well with all the timings. This only works against a 4 gate though doesnt it? if he goes gate robo gate gate and gets immortals and then techs to collosus. Or if he straight up rushes to DT, youre gonna be far behind arent you? It depends what you mean by far behind. You won't be behind in gas which is what PvP is all about. You'll be a bit behind if you chose twilight tech, as blink vs robo is hard to play. But not greatly behind. The rock-scisor-paper aspect of PvP isn't something that can be solved through a build order, but this is the BO that I like to do to still be able to keep up in tech if I chose the wrong tech path. I explained how to deal with DTs, but the most effective way of stopping it is with good intuition that they are coming (poking, scouting with probes etc...) And yeah I did work on those timings alone (took me a lot of time optimising so everything would fall into place at 5:50) so do you just do this in every pvp you play? or do you have to scout something that makes you do this? i know in the 10 gate game you scouted what he was doing, but what if you scout and maybe see him throw down a robo. Would you just abandon this altogether? what about on tal darim, would you do this on that map too? This build is tailored to be safe against standard 12 gate 14 gaz 16 core 17/18 zealot openings. Incidentally, it also works vs 10 gate openings (single gate). However you will have to adapt against a heavy gas play, or 2 gate play. (and as said above no zealot). Since the build is entirely standard up to the point where you scout, this shouldn't be a problem. Regarding Tal Darim and Scrap, as I've said, I'm not too sure. With good micro maybe... At least in the lower divisions I would definitely do this as the 4 gate is always 15 to 20 seconds late. Top level PvP, this probably isn't viable on maps with no ramp. What is your response to a 2 gate with this build?
I would assume the same as any response to a 2 gate which is to not tech fast and change the build (at least in close positions, you need to match the zealot count and rely on faster reinforcements - you can allot chronoboost to WG for example and counter later and faster b4 their WG finishes)
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Canada13372 Posts
On July 05 2011 17:17 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 gogo
Seriously stream please. Then the guy needs to earn his right onto the forums back a la Pokebunny v Plexa showmatch from a while ago.
Crud, this is double post :/ forgive please
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On July 05 2011 23:32 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 21:10 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 21:02 ThatGuy89 wrote:On July 04 2011 20:47 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 20:41 ThatGuy89 wrote: wow looks nice. If you've engineered this build yourself youve done really well with all the timings. This only works against a 4 gate though doesnt it? if he goes gate robo gate gate and gets immortals and then techs to collosus. Or if he straight up rushes to DT, youre gonna be far behind arent you? It depends what you mean by far behind. You won't be behind in gas which is what PvP is all about. You'll be a bit behind if you chose twilight tech, as blink vs robo is hard to play. But not greatly behind. The rock-scisor-paper aspect of PvP isn't something that can be solved through a build order, but this is the BO that I like to do to still be able to keep up in tech if I chose the wrong tech path. I explained how to deal with DTs, but the most effective way of stopping it is with good intuition that they are coming (poking, scouting with probes etc...) And yeah I did work on those timings alone (took me a lot of time optimising so everything would fall into place at 5:50) so do you just do this in every pvp you play? or do you have to scout something that makes you do this? i know in the 10 gate game you scouted what he was doing, but what if you scout and maybe see him throw down a robo. Would you just abandon this altogether? what about on tal darim, would you do this on that map too? This build is tailored to be safe against standard 12 gate 14 gaz 16 core 17/18 zealot openings. Incidentally, it also works vs 10 gate openings (single gate). However you will have to adapt against a heavy gas play, or 2 gate play. (and as said above no zealot). Since the build is entirely standard up to the point where you scout, this shouldn't be a problem. Regarding Tal Darim and Scrap, as I've said, I'm not too sure. With good micro maybe... At least in the lower divisions I would definitely do this as the 4 gate is always 15 to 20 seconds late. Top level PvP, this probably isn't viable on maps with no ramp. What is your response to a 2 gate with this build?
Do your usual response vs a 2 gate (i.e. not do this build). This build stays 100% standard for a long time so you should scout it in time before any deviations appear. Personally, I get a second gate out as soon as I see the 2 gate, and make non stop units out of them if that's what he is doing. The main point in defending a non-proxied two gate is to not use chrono boost on your units (even though that can be tempting). Defenders advantage should compensate for any chronoboost he might have used, and chronoboosting your units will sometimes be overreacting and giving him the econ lead. Some chronoboost on units is needed however if you scout him late on big 4 player maps. You should also prepare for your own counter attack., Against adelscott type openings, I like to transition into a 4 gate counter push while teching to blink.
On July 05 2011 22:24 divinesage wrote: So what happens when you realise you're behind because the opponent goes a tech heavy build eg. fast colossus? Expand probably? You do have more gateways and units after all so you should be safe for the time being.
Blink build should win you the game right here and there if your opponent is going straight for colo without immortals. Like I said in the topic, (and like wolf said yesterday in code A I think), "harrassy" blink style is the only way to deal with fast robo openings when going blink. Just make sure he doesn't push out and if he does, just base trade. If you can snipe the colossi, you can stall a lot of time with sentries at your ramp and win the base trade easily. Otherwise expand yes, and start your robo tech or chargelot archon.
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On July 05 2011 22:03 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas? This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:00 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:20 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates.
I don't follow. Maybe I'm missing something since I'm not a high level player.
I think warpgates have a 28-32 second cooldown depending on unit summoned, not 20. And I'm only getting about 700 minerals and 200 gas per minute from 22probe/2gas, which comes down to 4 stalkers and 2 zealots per minute (2 cycles). And then I don't even have money to build pylons. Or chrono's on gates. It only requires tight play.
From a 20probe/1gas you should get only 100 gas per minute, and 30-50 minerals more per minute. So that would be 2 stalkers 4-5 zealots per minute. Again without money for pylons.
So 3gate starts with a unit more. Warpgate tech finishes 7 seconds after a 4gate with 5 chrono's. 3gate spends 175 minerals on economy, while 4gate spends 150 minerals on a warpgate. And after transforming all money is spent on fighting units. I just don't see how 4gate could ever catch up, let alone overrrun. Except of course for the short 7 second timing windows between his warp cycles and yours, where he temporarily has 2 units more than you.
I must be missing something crucial. How does 4gate have more money? Please explain it to me.
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On July 06 2011 00:55 King of Town wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 22:03 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas? This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:00 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:20 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates. I don't follow. Maybe I'm missing something since I'm not a high level player. I think warpgates have a 28-32 second cooldown depending on unit summoned, not 20. And I'm only getting about 700 minerals and 200 gas per minute from 22probe/2gas, which comes down to 4 stalkers and 2 zealots per minute (2 cycles). And then I don't even have money to build pylons. Or chrono's on gates. It only requires tight play. From a 20probe/1gas you should get only 100 gas per minute, and 30-50 minerals more per minute. So that would be 2 stalkers 4-5 zealots per minute. Again without money for pylons. So 3gate starts with a unit more. Warpgate tech finishes 7 seconds after a 4gate with 5 chrono's. 3gate spends 175 minerals on economy, while 4gate spends 150 minerals on a warpgate. And after transforming all money is spent on fighting units. I just don't see how 4gate could ever catch up, let alone overrrun. Except of course for the short 7 second timing windows between his warp cycles and yours, where he temporarily has 2 units more than you. I must be missing something crucial. How does 4gate have more money? Please explain it to me.
You are right about one thing, having 15 units at 6:20 is impossible. The problem is rather that you can't spend all your money on only 3 Warpgates even with only Stalkers. I don't know whether you can theoretically do so with perfect chronoboosting when you don't build Pylons and Probes, but even if you can, it is unrealistic to do so because the micro is very intensive. More importantly, you actually do need Zealots, or the other player can chase your Stalkers with his Zealots while focusing them down with his lower number of Stalkers and send 1-2 Zealots into your mineralline meanwhile.
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When you say "The game is practically won if he 4gates" you're just plain wrong. He has more unit producing capabilities than you. Eventually he'll overpower you if he isn't stupid about it.
User was warned for this post
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On July 06 2011 01:35 Deathmare wrote: When you say "The game is practically won if he 4gates" you're just plain wrong. He has more unit producing capabilities than you. Eventually he'll overpower you if he isn't stupid about it.
No, you are just plain wrong.
4 gates runs out of ressources very fast. Fast enough so he doesn't have a significant unit lead on you. He cannot go up the ramp or he will get FFed and lose everything. The only thing he can hope to do is setup a contain. You can easily squeeze in a twilight council once the first 5:50 push is over. Once your tech is done, if he hasn't pulled back by then you can just kill everything he has. You are way ahead as : -he has lost some units trying to go up your ramp -he has wasted ressources on a 4th gate -he has cut probes and greatly delayed his second gas.
For anyone who knows how to play PvP, anyone of these conditions means that you will have a VERY hard time getting back into the game.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 06 2011 01:35 ForTheDr3am wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 00:55 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 22:03 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas? This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:00 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:20 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates. I don't follow. Maybe I'm missing something since I'm not a high level player. I think warpgates have a 28-32 second cooldown depending on unit summoned, not 20. And I'm only getting about 700 minerals and 200 gas per minute from 22probe/2gas, which comes down to 4 stalkers and 2 zealots per minute (2 cycles). And then I don't even have money to build pylons. Or chrono's on gates. It only requires tight play. From a 20probe/1gas you should get only 100 gas per minute, and 30-50 minerals more per minute. So that would be 2 stalkers 4-5 zealots per minute. Again without money for pylons. So 3gate starts with a unit more. Warpgate tech finishes 7 seconds after a 4gate with 5 chrono's. 3gate spends 175 minerals on economy, while 4gate spends 150 minerals on a warpgate. And after transforming all money is spent on fighting units. I just don't see how 4gate could ever catch up, let alone overrrun. Except of course for the short 7 second timing windows between his warp cycles and yours, where he temporarily has 2 units more than you. I must be missing something crucial. How does 4gate have more money? Please explain it to me. You are right about one thing, having 15 units at 6:20 is impossible. The problem is rather that you can't spend all your money on only 3 Warpgates even with only Stalkers. I don't know whether you can theoretically do so with perfect chronoboosting when you don't build Pylons and Probes, but even if you can, it is unrealistic to do so because the micro is very intensive. More importantly, you actually do need Zealots, or the other player can chase your Stalkers with his Zealots while focusing them down with his lower number of Stalkers and send 1-2 Zealots into your mineralline meanwhile.
Yea, this. I fixed my warpgate timings in my original response. But i'd also like to add that you can actually fully support 4 gates for the first 2 waves of warpins with the standard 4 gate build. This is because you hardly spend any money between the time when you add the 4 gates and when you warp in your first wave of stalkers. On a map like talderim where even one unit difference matters, you can't afford to get 3 gates. However, instead of taking our word for it, why don't you try it out? You'll see much more clearly if you do that.
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Wow I really thank you Geiko for this build. Won me every game so far and finally pvp is less coinflip for me, although i don't follow it up with blink if he doesn't 4gate but with chargelot archon. Is this viable(note that im only top8 plat)?
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Thank you, I've been looking for something gateway heavy that I can tech out of. I was so sick of going robo in pvp. I'm not high enough to really talk, but wouldn't a 1 gate 1 sentry 1 zealot 1 stalker push crush this? I finished the post but tldr for comments. I apologize if someone said something similar. Also, you can't really deny any scouting/cannon rush. Is there a way to get a zealot out earlier, or should I just wall with my builder probe? Edit- fail the person above me said something similar in remark to the proxy pylon
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On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 i just got back home. we can do this in a couple days or so. or whenever were both not busy. how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge but yeah totally. im all up for it. sure we can play a bo3 PvP some time soon and if i lose i am no longer allowed in the strats forum (and ill also give you 20 bucks if you want, if i lose) here will be the rules for the PvP bo3. there are no rules. treat it like a ladder game. Im not trying to show what beats a 4gate or anything (which is what i was talking about earlier) im not doing this to prove what can beat a 4gate or anything, i challenged you because of you talking like im a low calibur player. so thats what this bo3 is about. so the purpose of this bo3 is not to prove some kind of strategy or anything, its just for me to show i dont suck lol. so the rules of this PvP bo3 is we can treat it like a ladder game, no rules, but the map rules can be we start on taldar arim and after that loser picks map (mlg metal, mlg shakuras, taldar arim, and mlg shattered are map options)
Regardless of how good or bad you are, you made a bold claim that was not backed by any evidence (warpgate is not needed if you're playing defensively), so I called you out on it. You tried to argue your claim but your logic was poor, so I called you out on your incorrect assumptions. Then you tried to use your personal experience to back up your claim, so I called you out on your personal experience since it is at the diamond level. TeamLiquid has high expectations, and although diamond may be top 20% of battle.net, it's considered low caliber here. It doesn't matter that you've beaten masters players, even if you were masters and you made such a claim as this one I would still call you out for it.
Personally I'd rather play 4 gate against your 3 gate no-warpgate robo, because I'm more interested in validating strategy than "challenging" you. I don't have anything personal against you. But if you'd rather just do a regular bo3 then that's up to you (hint: I'm most likely going to 4 gate you anyway). I'm usually online weekdays 8pm-2am EST. Message me whenever.
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On July 06 2011 02:06 Tigi wrote: Wow I really thank you Geiko for this build. Won me every game so far and finally pvp is less coinflip for me, although i don't follow it up with blink if he doesn't 4gate but with chargelot archon. Is this viable(note that im only top8 plat)?
You get a fast gas so any transition is viable in the late game. When designing a build what you should watch out for is if you don't die in between where you are in the early game and where you want to be in the late game. If you want to transition chargelot archon, the question you have to ask yourself is "how do I expand without dying ?"
On July 06 2011 02:27 RobCorso wrote: Thank you, I've been looking for something gateway heavy that I can tech out of. I was so sick of going robo in pvp. I'm not high enough to really talk, but wouldn't a 1 gate 1 sentry 1 zealot 1 stalker push crush this? I finished the post but tldr for comments. I apologize if someone said something similar. Also, you can't really deny any scouting/cannon rush. Is there a way to get a zealot out earlier, or should I just wall with my builder probe? Edit- fail the person above me said something similar in remark to the proxy pylon
I don't undestand any of this. These seem like pretty [L]ow level questions, but I can guarantee you that defending cannon rushes and small 1 gate unit fights is not a problem with this build. If you are having specific problems, feel free to send me replays of you losing (PM) and I'll gladly help you out.
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On July 06 2011 03:14 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 i just got back home. we can do this in a couple days or so. or whenever were both not busy. how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge but yeah totally. im all up for it. sure we can play a bo3 PvP some time soon and if i lose i am no longer allowed in the strats forum (and ill also give you 20 bucks if you want, if i lose) here will be the rules for the PvP bo3. there are no rules. treat it like a ladder game. Im not trying to show what beats a 4gate or anything (which is what i was talking about earlier) im not doing this to prove what can beat a 4gate or anything, i challenged you because of you talking like im a low calibur player. so thats what this bo3 is about. so the purpose of this bo3 is not to prove some kind of strategy or anything, its just for me to show i dont suck lol. so the rules of this PvP bo3 is we can treat it like a ladder game, no rules, but the map rules can be we start on taldar arim and after that loser picks map (mlg metal, mlg shakuras, taldar arim, and mlg shattered are map options) Regardless of how good or bad you are, you made a bold claim that was not backed by any evidence (warpgate is not needed if you're playing defensively), so I called you out on it. You tried to argue your claim but your logic was poor, so I called you out on your incorrect assumptions. Then you tried to use your personal experience to back up your claim, so I called you out on your personal experience since it is at the diamond level. TeamLiquid has high expectations, and although diamond may be top 20% of battle.net, it's considered low caliber here. It doesn't matter that you've beaten masters players, even if you were masters and you made such a claim as this one I would still call you out for it. Personally I'd rather play 4 gate against your 3 gate no-warpgate robo, because I'm more interested in validating strategy than "challenging" you. I don't have anything personal against you. But if you'd rather just do a regular bo3 then that's up to you (hint: I'm most likely going to 4 gate you anyway). I'm usually online weekdays 8pm-2am EST. Message me whenever.
heyy brahski im serious if you want 20 bucks if you win i can give that to you. im a 23 year old dude that mooches off my rich parents and they give me tons of cash whenever i want so i dont care if i lose 20 bucks in a bo3 match. if you could benefit from 20 dollars like buying some subway or something then i dont mind putting 20 dollars on the match. its up 2 you you can decide when the match is over if you want 20
we start on taldar arim which is a 4gate map and how about this. I really do believe a defensive 4gate doesnt need warpgates and i normally wait a while to upgrade warpgates on taldar arim in order to pump out more units. so in the first game, i guess we will be able to test if a delayed warpgate upgrade can defend itself against a normal 4gate
sure ill msg u when i see u online if we are both not busy we can do the bo3 then put replays in this thread if ppl wanna see um
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On July 06 2011 03:39 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 03:14 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote: [quote]
False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 i just got back home. we can do this in a couple days or so. or whenever were both not busy. how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge but yeah totally. im all up for it. sure we can play a bo3 PvP some time soon and if i lose i am no longer allowed in the strats forum (and ill also give you 20 bucks if you want, if i lose) here will be the rules for the PvP bo3. there are no rules. treat it like a ladder game. Im not trying to show what beats a 4gate or anything (which is what i was talking about earlier) im not doing this to prove what can beat a 4gate or anything, i challenged you because of you talking like im a low calibur player. so thats what this bo3 is about. so the purpose of this bo3 is not to prove some kind of strategy or anything, its just for me to show i dont suck lol. so the rules of this PvP bo3 is we can treat it like a ladder game, no rules, but the map rules can be we start on taldar arim and after that loser picks map (mlg metal, mlg shakuras, taldar arim, and mlg shattered are map options) Regardless of how good or bad you are, you made a bold claim that was not backed by any evidence (warpgate is not needed if you're playing defensively), so I called you out on it. You tried to argue your claim but your logic was poor, so I called you out on your incorrect assumptions. Then you tried to use your personal experience to back up your claim, so I called you out on your personal experience since it is at the diamond level. TeamLiquid has high expectations, and although diamond may be top 20% of battle.net, it's considered low caliber here. It doesn't matter that you've beaten masters players, even if you were masters and you made such a claim as this one I would still call you out for it. Personally I'd rather play 4 gate against your 3 gate no-warpgate robo, because I'm more interested in validating strategy than "challenging" you. I don't have anything personal against you. But if you'd rather just do a regular bo3 then that's up to you (hint: I'm most likely going to 4 gate you anyway). I'm usually online weekdays 8pm-2am EST. Message me whenever. heyy brahski im serious if you want 20 bucks if you win i can give that to you. im a 23 year old dude that mooches off my rich parents and they give me tons of cash whenever i want so i dont care if i lose 20 bucks in a bo3 match. if you could benefit from 20 dollars like buying some subway or something then i dont mind putting 20 dollars on the match. its up 2 you you can decide when the match is over if you want 20 we start on taldar arim which is a 4gate map and how about this. I really do believe a defensive 4gate doesnt need warpgates and i normally wait a while to upgrade warpgates on taldar arim in order to pump out more units. so in the first game, i guess we will be able to test if a delayed warpgate upgrade can defend itself against a normal 4gate sure ill msg u when i see u online if we are both not busy we can do the bo3 then put replays in this thread if ppl wanna see um
Lol you seem to be getting even more low level everytime you post. Now you think you can hold 4 warpgate with 4 normal gate and no robo on Tal'Darim ? Can I play you too and get some of that free rich-parent money ?
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On July 06 2011 03:47 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 03:39 roymarthyup wrote:On July 06 2011 03:14 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote: [quote]
true to an extent
3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point
lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo
4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas
3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas
both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment
however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 i just got back home. we can do this in a couple days or so. or whenever were both not busy. how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge but yeah totally. im all up for it. sure we can play a bo3 PvP some time soon and if i lose i am no longer allowed in the strats forum (and ill also give you 20 bucks if you want, if i lose) here will be the rules for the PvP bo3. there are no rules. treat it like a ladder game. Im not trying to show what beats a 4gate or anything (which is what i was talking about earlier) im not doing this to prove what can beat a 4gate or anything, i challenged you because of you talking like im a low calibur player. so thats what this bo3 is about. so the purpose of this bo3 is not to prove some kind of strategy or anything, its just for me to show i dont suck lol. so the rules of this PvP bo3 is we can treat it like a ladder game, no rules, but the map rules can be we start on taldar arim and after that loser picks map (mlg metal, mlg shakuras, taldar arim, and mlg shattered are map options) Regardless of how good or bad you are, you made a bold claim that was not backed by any evidence (warpgate is not needed if you're playing defensively), so I called you out on it. You tried to argue your claim but your logic was poor, so I called you out on your incorrect assumptions. Then you tried to use your personal experience to back up your claim, so I called you out on your personal experience since it is at the diamond level. TeamLiquid has high expectations, and although diamond may be top 20% of battle.net, it's considered low caliber here. It doesn't matter that you've beaten masters players, even if you were masters and you made such a claim as this one I would still call you out for it. Personally I'd rather play 4 gate against your 3 gate no-warpgate robo, because I'm more interested in validating strategy than "challenging" you. I don't have anything personal against you. But if you'd rather just do a regular bo3 then that's up to you (hint: I'm most likely going to 4 gate you anyway). I'm usually online weekdays 8pm-2am EST. Message me whenever. heyy brahski im serious if you want 20 bucks if you win i can give that to you. im a 23 year old dude that mooches off my rich parents and they give me tons of cash whenever i want so i dont care if i lose 20 bucks in a bo3 match. if you could benefit from 20 dollars like buying some subway or something then i dont mind putting 20 dollars on the match. its up 2 you you can decide when the match is over if you want 20 we start on taldar arim which is a 4gate map and how about this. I really do believe a defensive 4gate doesnt need warpgates and i normally wait a while to upgrade warpgates on taldar arim in order to pump out more units. so in the first game, i guess we will be able to test if a delayed warpgate upgrade can defend itself against a normal 4gate sure ill msg u when i see u online if we are both not busy we can do the bo3 then put replays in this thread if ppl wanna see um Lol you seem to be getting even more low level everytime you post. Now you think you can hold 4 warpgate with 4 normal gate and no robo on Tal'Darim ? Can I play you too and get some of that free rich-parent money ?
both of those can pump out a one base economies worth of units. the warpgates will have an extra 3-4 units between rounds due to getting units instantly. the warpgate does have an advantage in pure mechanics
butt ive been getting faster gates lately and a slower warpgate upgrade and i puts all chrono on gates so by the time he hits me i can have almost as much units (due to me pumping out extra during his warpgate upgrade) and my warpgate finishes pretty soon giving me another round of production its delayed but when you add it to the extra units i got out earlier this defensive 4gate is pretty good at overwhelming a 4gate i think. but i guess in the replays we will see if it can work against a good player
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With a 4gate defensive build with delayed warpgate, you should be able to just post a replay to note the timings which you are able to get units out. It can be compared to a well executed 4 gate and see the timing window where you have less units and that'll give a better indication if it can hold a 4gate or not. I'd imagine we can see the exact time window where you are down/up on units and by how many as well.
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Very interesting and very well written. Gonna try it, but i still love my blink stalkers pvp :D
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I like this, except I like chargelots instead of blink stalkers. I'll be using my gas on the high templars. I have this unique way of playing that uses chargelots like zerglings lol. Just think of protoss ling/bane. One uses zealots to go behind the back of opponent's army and hold them in place while storms are done. And if their army is spread, even better. Zealots pwn in 1v1 situations.
Both DT play and blink stalkers get shut down by robo play, but I think if one get's to scout opponent's active robo, chargelots/HTs will own. I'm not sure how well chargelots/HTs will fare against DT and blink stalkers though.
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How does this hold up against 2gate openings such as Adelscott's "no gas" build?
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United States8476 Posts
On July 06 2011 09:01 CreativeAlias wrote: How does this hold up against 2gate openings such as Adelscott's "no gas" build?
You don't diverge into this build before scouting adel's 2 gate opening, so this is a non-issue.
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On July 06 2011 02:02 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 01:35 ForTheDr3am wrote:On July 06 2011 00:55 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 22:03 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas? This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:00 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:20 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates. I don't follow. Maybe I'm missing something since I'm not a high level player. I think warpgates have a 28-32 second cooldown depending on unit summoned, not 20. And I'm only getting about 700 minerals and 200 gas per minute from 22probe/2gas, which comes down to 4 stalkers and 2 zealots per minute (2 cycles). And then I don't even have money to build pylons. Or chrono's on gates. It only requires tight play. From a 20probe/1gas you should get only 100 gas per minute, and 30-50 minerals more per minute. So that would be 2 stalkers 4-5 zealots per minute. Again without money for pylons. So 3gate starts with a unit more. Warpgate tech finishes 7 seconds after a 4gate with 5 chrono's. 3gate spends 175 minerals on economy, while 4gate spends 150 minerals on a warpgate. And after transforming all money is spent on fighting units. I just don't see how 4gate could ever catch up, let alone overrrun. Except of course for the short 7 second timing windows between his warp cycles and yours, where he temporarily has 2 units more than you. I must be missing something crucial. How does 4gate have more money? Please explain it to me. You are right about one thing, having 15 units at 6:20 is impossible. The problem is rather that you can't spend all your money on only 3 Warpgates even with only Stalkers. I don't know whether you can theoretically do so with perfect chronoboosting when you don't build Pylons and Probes, but even if you can, it is unrealistic to do so because the micro is very intensive. More importantly, you actually do need Zealots, or the other player can chase your Stalkers with his Zealots while focusing them down with his lower number of Stalkers and send 1-2 Zealots into your mineralline meanwhile. Yea, this. I fixed my warpgate timings in my original response. But i'd also like to add that you can actually fully support 4 gates for the first 2 waves of warpins with the standard 4 gate build. This is because you hardly spend any money between the time when you add the 4 gates and when you warp in your first wave of stalkers. On a map like talderim where even one unit difference matters, you can't afford to get 3 gates. However, instead of taking our word for it, why don't you try it out? You'll see much more clearly if you do that.
Allright, I see your point.
I tried again this morning with the TL;DR build and I can definitely spend my money on 1zealot/2stalker warps. Don't even need chronoboost. And of course when you 3gate on 1 gas you have to get your gateways earlier, which requires you to skip your first zealot. But then you definitely don't get overrun as you can spend 5 chrono's on warpgate (so same timing) and have 6 stalkers 2 zealots right after. So perfect play would in both cases get you a bigger army.
But when I have to micro I do mess it up.
Like I said, I'm not very good so I thought it was just bad players like me having trouble to keep up macroing while microing. Apparently the pro's do it, too. Still surprises me, that they'd choose to have less economy/army just for easier macro. Like you say, every unit counts.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 06 2011 17:30 King of Town wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 02:02 4kmonk wrote:On July 06 2011 01:35 ForTheDr3am wrote:On July 06 2011 00:55 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 22:03 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas? This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:00 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:20 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates. I don't follow. Maybe I'm missing something since I'm not a high level player. I think warpgates have a 28-32 second cooldown depending on unit summoned, not 20. And I'm only getting about 700 minerals and 200 gas per minute from 22probe/2gas, which comes down to 4 stalkers and 2 zealots per minute (2 cycles). And then I don't even have money to build pylons. Or chrono's on gates. It only requires tight play. From a 20probe/1gas you should get only 100 gas per minute, and 30-50 minerals more per minute. So that would be 2 stalkers 4-5 zealots per minute. Again without money for pylons. So 3gate starts with a unit more. Warpgate tech finishes 7 seconds after a 4gate with 5 chrono's. 3gate spends 175 minerals on economy, while 4gate spends 150 minerals on a warpgate. And after transforming all money is spent on fighting units. I just don't see how 4gate could ever catch up, let alone overrrun. Except of course for the short 7 second timing windows between his warp cycles and yours, where he temporarily has 2 units more than you. I must be missing something crucial. How does 4gate have more money? Please explain it to me. You are right about one thing, having 15 units at 6:20 is impossible. The problem is rather that you can't spend all your money on only 3 Warpgates even with only Stalkers. I don't know whether you can theoretically do so with perfect chronoboosting when you don't build Pylons and Probes, but even if you can, it is unrealistic to do so because the micro is very intensive. More importantly, you actually do need Zealots, or the other player can chase your Stalkers with his Zealots while focusing them down with his lower number of Stalkers and send 1-2 Zealots into your mineralline meanwhile. Yea, this. I fixed my warpgate timings in my original response. But i'd also like to add that you can actually fully support 4 gates for the first 2 waves of warpins with the standard 4 gate build. This is because you hardly spend any money between the time when you add the 4 gates and when you warp in your first wave of stalkers. On a map like talderim where even one unit difference matters, you can't afford to get 3 gates. However, instead of taking our word for it, why don't you try it out? You'll see much more clearly if you do that. Allright, I see your point. I tried again this morning with the TL;DR build and I can definitely spend my money on 1zealot/2stalker warps. Don't even need chronoboost. And of course when you 3gate on 1 gas you have to get your gateways earlier, which requires you to skip your first zealot. But then you definitely don't get overrun as you can spend 5 chrono's on warpgate (so same timing) and have 6 stalkers 2 zealots right after. So perfect play would in both cases get you a bigger army. But when I have to micro I do mess it up. Like I said, I'm not very good so I thought it was just bad players like me having trouble to keep up macroing while microing. Apparently the pro's do it, too. Still surprises me, that they'd choose to have less economy/army just for easier macro. Like you say, every unit counts.
I have no idea what you just said.
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On July 06 2011 19:10 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 17:30 King of Town wrote:On July 06 2011 02:02 4kmonk wrote:On July 06 2011 01:35 ForTheDr3am wrote:On July 06 2011 00:55 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 22:03 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas? This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:00 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:20 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates. I don't follow. Maybe I'm missing something since I'm not a high level player. I think warpgates have a 28-32 second cooldown depending on unit summoned, not 20. And I'm only getting about 700 minerals and 200 gas per minute from 22probe/2gas, which comes down to 4 stalkers and 2 zealots per minute (2 cycles). And then I don't even have money to build pylons. Or chrono's on gates. It only requires tight play. From a 20probe/1gas you should get only 100 gas per minute, and 30-50 minerals more per minute. So that would be 2 stalkers 4-5 zealots per minute. Again without money for pylons. So 3gate starts with a unit more. Warpgate tech finishes 7 seconds after a 4gate with 5 chrono's. 3gate spends 175 minerals on economy, while 4gate spends 150 minerals on a warpgate. And after transforming all money is spent on fighting units. I just don't see how 4gate could ever catch up, let alone overrrun. Except of course for the short 7 second timing windows between his warp cycles and yours, where he temporarily has 2 units more than you. I must be missing something crucial. How does 4gate have more money? Please explain it to me. You are right about one thing, having 15 units at 6:20 is impossible. The problem is rather that you can't spend all your money on only 3 Warpgates even with only Stalkers. I don't know whether you can theoretically do so with perfect chronoboosting when you don't build Pylons and Probes, but even if you can, it is unrealistic to do so because the micro is very intensive. More importantly, you actually do need Zealots, or the other player can chase your Stalkers with his Zealots while focusing them down with his lower number of Stalkers and send 1-2 Zealots into your mineralline meanwhile. Yea, this. I fixed my warpgate timings in my original response. But i'd also like to add that you can actually fully support 4 gates for the first 2 waves of warpins with the standard 4 gate build. This is because you hardly spend any money between the time when you add the 4 gates and when you warp in your first wave of stalkers. On a map like talderim where even one unit difference matters, you can't afford to get 3 gates. However, instead of taking our word for it, why don't you try it out? You'll see much more clearly if you do that. Allright, I see your point. I tried again this morning with the TL;DR build and I can definitely spend my money on 1zealot/2stalker warps. Don't even need chronoboost. And of course when you 3gate on 1 gas you have to get your gateways earlier, which requires you to skip your first zealot. But then you definitely don't get overrun as you can spend 5 chrono's on warpgate (so same timing) and have 6 stalkers 2 zealots right after. So perfect play would in both cases get you a bigger army. But when I have to micro I do mess it up. Like I said, I'm not very good so I thought it was just bad players like me having trouble to keep up macroing while microing. Apparently the pro's do it, too. Still surprises me, that they'd choose to have less economy/army just for easier macro. Like you say, every unit counts. I have no idea what you just said.
I said with good macro you can make as many units with 3 gates as with 4, even without any chronoboost on warpgates.
I also said it's easier to macro if you make 4, so you can pay more attention to micro with 4gate. So you're right about that.
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On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve.
I'm online now, coLrsvp.138
On behalf of everyone who has ever read a roymarthup strategy forum post,
Thank you.
On July 05 2011 01:20 CCalms wrote:9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core 19 gate 20 stalker, warpgate 22 two stalkers 26 two gates 26 proxy pylon 5:42 warp in 3 stalker 1 zealot
Same exact outcome as conventional 4gate despite opening 3stalker
If it has the exact same outcome as conventional 4gate (down to the number of probes and number of gases) and the OP is designed to beat a conventional 4gate, how does this version of the 3 stalker build come out ahead of it?!
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United States8476 Posts
Ok, I actually finally read most of this thread and I have more comments. First of all the replay you have of your opponent doing a 4 gate isn't optimal as he's actually late on his warping by around 10 seconds. You might want a new replay =P.
Also, I don't believe the OP is aware of the 4 gate version that looks exactly like a 3 stalker rush but hits at the exact same time and with the exact same units as a standard 4 gate. Thus, you can't skip the sentry if you scout that 3 stalker rush. Although I do believe that's posted directly above this is wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong but i'm pretty sure you need to add your 3rd and 4th gate before your 2nd and 3rd stalker.
However, you'll be glad to know that the 3 stalker rush build is actually somewhat outdated, because high level protoss have figured out to just steal the gas vs this build and then do a safe build vs 4 gate that also get an early gas, such as your build. Most top protoss have instead favored the 2nd gas into 2nd gate into 3 stalker rush into 2 sentry build instead. That last part was a bit of a tangent <.<.
I'd also like to echo the sentiment that not all blink builds get a zealot first. In fact, many times, the zealot is detrimental.
Finally, you've inspired me to write 2 guides on pvp, one of them being my version of the 3 gate opening, which is a combination of mymsase/mouzmana's 3 gate opening and ogsmc's 3 gate opening, if anyone is familiar with those builds. I will also include your build in my first guide and compare and contrast the 4 builds.
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Germany2762 Posts
excellent guide and writeup! i will try this for sure when i get the time to play a bit more again
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On July 06 2011 21:04 4kmonk wrote: Ok, I actually finally read most of this thread and I have more comments. First of all the replay you have of your opponent doing a 4 gate isn't optimal as he's actually late on his warping by around 10 seconds. You might want a new replay =P.
Also, I don't believe the OP is aware of the 4 gate version that looks exactly like a 3 stalker rush but hits at the exact same time and with the exact same units as a standard 4 gate. Thus, you can't skip the sentry if you scout that 3 stalker rush. Although I do believe that's posted directly above this is wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong but i'm pretty sure you need to add your 3rd and 4th gate before your 2nd and 3rd stalker.
However, you'll be glad to know that the 3 stalker rush build is actually somewhat outdated, because high level protoss have figured out to just steal the gas vs this build and then do a safe build vs 4 gate that also get an early gas, such as your build. Most top protoss have instead favored the 2nd gas into 2nd gate into 3 stalker rush into 2 sentry build instead. That last part was a bit of a tangent <.<.
I'd also like to echo the sentiment that not all blink builds get a zealot first. In fact, many times, the zealot is detrimental.
Finally, you've inspired me to write 2 guides on pvp, one of them being my version of the 3 gate opening, which is a combination of mymsase/mouzmana's 3 gate opening and ogsmc's 3 gate opening, if anyone is familiar with those builds. I will also include your build in my first guide and compare and contrast the 4 builds.
Regarding the 3 stalker build, I indeed get a stalker instead of a sentry as third unit. The 3 stalker into 4gate build does not hit at the same time as a 4 gate as you've spent at least one extra chronoboost on your first stalker. If he is "3s into 4 gate"-ing, your zealot + 2 stalker force should be strong enough to push the proxy probe back so he doesn't warp in units right at your ramp. At that point, you really just need to warp in a sentry and 2 stalkers instead of 3 stalkers to be safe against 4 gate. If you're on the EU server, we can test that. I've never really tried gas stealing in answer to 3s rush, I suppose it is doable, would appreciate any replays you have of this. Zealot or not in blink builds is really all about preference. If you're going for a slightly delayed blink build like mine, the zealot is still very good defensively, and has it's use vs early pressure/cheese in particular. Eventually you'll run out of gas or want to get aditional tech (robo for observers), and have to make zealots anyways.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 06 2011 21:32 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 21:04 4kmonk wrote: Ok, I actually finally read most of this thread and I have more comments. First of all the replay you have of your opponent doing a 4 gate isn't optimal as he's actually late on his warping by around 10 seconds. You might want a new replay =P.
Also, I don't believe the OP is aware of the 4 gate version that looks exactly like a 3 stalker rush but hits at the exact same time and with the exact same units as a standard 4 gate. Thus, you can't skip the sentry if you scout that 3 stalker rush. Although I do believe that's posted directly above this is wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong but i'm pretty sure you need to add your 3rd and 4th gate before your 2nd and 3rd stalker.
However, you'll be glad to know that the 3 stalker rush build is actually somewhat outdated, because high level protoss have figured out to just steal the gas vs this build and then do a safe build vs 4 gate that also get an early gas, such as your build. Most top protoss have instead favored the 2nd gas into 2nd gate into 3 stalker rush into 2 sentry build instead. That last part was a bit of a tangent <.<.
I'd also like to echo the sentiment that not all blink builds get a zealot first. In fact, many times, the zealot is detrimental.
Finally, you've inspired me to write 2 guides on pvp, one of them being my version of the 3 gate opening, which is a combination of mymsase/mouzmana's 3 gate opening and ogsmc's 3 gate opening, if anyone is familiar with those builds. I will also include your build in my first guide and compare and contrast the 4 builds. Regarding the 3 stalker build, I indeed get a stalker instead of a sentry as third unit. The 3 stalker into 4gate build does not hit at the same time as a 4 gate as you've spent at least one extra chronoboost on your first stalker. If he is "3s into 4 gate"-ing, your zealot + 2 stalker force should be strong enough to push the proxy probe back so he doesn't warp in units right at your ramp. At that point, you really just need to warp in a sentry and 2 stalkers instead of 3 stalkers to be safe against 4 gate. If you're on the EU server, we can test that. I've never really tried gas stealing in answer to 3s rush, I suppose it is doable, would appreciate any replays you have of this. Zealot or not in blink builds is really all about preference. If you're going for a slightly delayed blink build like mine, the zealot is still very good defensively, and has it's use vs early pressure/cheese in particular. Eventually you'll run out of gas or want to get aditional tech (robo for observers), and have to make zealots anyways.
You don't have to chorno the first stalker with a 3 stalker build. Also, I don't have an EU account. I can probably borrow one later on though.
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Sure you don't have to chronoboost, but that makes you even less safe against 4 gate builds. If you don't chrono the stalker, I also have more time to stay in your base and check if you're taking a second gas or not. There's really no point in opening 3 stalkers if you're not going to take an early gas or get early map presence. But like you said, the gas stealing idea should solve this problem, I'll be looking into that.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 06 2011 21:53 Geiko wrote: Sure you don't have to chronoboost, but that makes you even less safe against 4 gate builds. If you don't chrono the stalker, I also have more time to stay in your base and check if you're taking a second gas or not. There's really no point in opening 3 stalkers if you're not going to take an early gas or get early map presence. But like you said, the gas stealing idea should solve this problem, I'll be looking into that.
I don't really care about this argument but, not chornoboosting your first stalker doesn't really affect how safe you are vs 4 gate. That just means your 3 stalkers finish 5 seconds later than normal. Normally, if you chornoboost your first stalker your 2nd gateway finishes 5 seconds into the 2nd stalker's build time. If you don't chornoboost the first stalker, your 2nd gateway finishes 5 seconds before the first stalker finishes. So thus it's not that huge of a difference.
Also your opponent can take his gas and then cancel when your probe leaves for almost no cost to him.
But again, not really an issue cause you can gas steal.
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On July 06 2011 03:39 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 03:14 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote: [quote]
False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 i just got back home. we can do this in a couple days or so. or whenever were both not busy. how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge but yeah totally. im all up for it. sure we can play a bo3 PvP some time soon and if i lose i am no longer allowed in the strats forum (and ill also give you 20 bucks if you want, if i lose) here will be the rules for the PvP bo3. there are no rules. treat it like a ladder game. Im not trying to show what beats a 4gate or anything (which is what i was talking about earlier) im not doing this to prove what can beat a 4gate or anything, i challenged you because of you talking like im a low calibur player. so thats what this bo3 is about. so the purpose of this bo3 is not to prove some kind of strategy or anything, its just for me to show i dont suck lol. so the rules of this PvP bo3 is we can treat it like a ladder game, no rules, but the map rules can be we start on taldar arim and after that loser picks map (mlg metal, mlg shakuras, taldar arim, and mlg shattered are map options) Regardless of how good or bad you are, you made a bold claim that was not backed by any evidence (warpgate is not needed if you're playing defensively), so I called you out on it. You tried to argue your claim but your logic was poor, so I called you out on your incorrect assumptions. Then you tried to use your personal experience to back up your claim, so I called you out on your personal experience since it is at the diamond level. TeamLiquid has high expectations, and although diamond may be top 20% of battle.net, it's considered low caliber here. It doesn't matter that you've beaten masters players, even if you were masters and you made such a claim as this one I would still call you out for it. Personally I'd rather play 4 gate against your 3 gate no-warpgate robo, because I'm more interested in validating strategy than "challenging" you. I don't have anything personal against you. But if you'd rather just do a regular bo3 then that's up to you (hint: I'm most likely going to 4 gate you anyway). I'm usually online weekdays 8pm-2am EST. Message me whenever. heyy brahski im serious if you want 20 bucks if you win i can give that to you. im a 23 year old dude that mooches off my rich parents and they give me tons of cash whenever i want so i dont care if i lose 20 bucks in a bo3 match. if you could benefit from 20 dollars like buying some subway or something then i dont mind putting 20 dollars on the match. its up 2 you you can decide when the match is over if you want 20 we start on taldar arim which is a 4gate map and how about this. I really do believe a defensive 4gate doesnt need warpgates and i normally wait a while to upgrade warpgates on taldar arim in order to pump out more units. so in the first game, i guess we will be able to test if a delayed warpgate upgrade can defend itself against a normal 4gate sure ill msg u when i see u online if we are both not busy we can do the bo3 then put replays in this thread if ppl wanna see um
The plot thickens.
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On July 06 2011 21:32 Geiko wrote:
I've never really tried gas stealing in answer to 3s rush, I suppose it is doable, would appreciate any replays you have of this.
It's soooo strong. because if you skip the zealot it takes forever to take the gas down.
from that point you (the gas stealer) have two options:
if he tries to take down the assimilator you can still go for the hardcore 4 gate, because he is not on the map with his stalkers (the whole point of the 3 stalker rush). He can't warp-in sentries, because he is low on gas (the original 3 stalker rush featured a second gas right when the first stalker had driven away your opponent's scouting probe). even if he defensive 4 gates, you are ahead on warpgatetech and gateway timing and should be able to break him. if he goes for 3 gates/2 gate robo he will die for sure.
or you can just take your second gas and play defensive. if he doesnt kill your assimilator, you know for sure he will all-in you, but because he didn't open in mind with a hardcore 4 gate (probably more chrono on probes), you can easily defend it with 4 gates of your own + the gas steal and taking your own second gas.
that's why I'm currently using a slightly different 3 stalker rush build. you get your second gas at 19 and second gateway at 20. no chrono on first stalker though, but on 2nd and 3rd. up to the second gas at 19 its just the same bo as against zerg and looks extremely greedy in a pvp. but because 4 gates are so easily scoutable thanks to the patch, you know for sure when it's coming. so you basically just leave one probe in the second gas and go 2 Gate -> 4 Gate. I personally build my 3rd and 4th gateway at the ramp (like naniwa did at mlg with his blink stalker build).
you have 5 stalkers when the 4 gater has 1 zealot and 6 stalkers. but you have the wall-in and your gateways transforming just right about when he goes up your ramp.
I love that you can deny a proxy pylon with the 3 stalkers, but you don't die instantly when you don't succeed with it. as long as the first proxy pylon is not built by a sneaky probe right beneath your ramp, your in a good position to defend it.
if the other player sees what you are doing and reacts with chronoboost on probes and second gas himself, just skip the 20 gate and go for a 1 gate tech build. you are a little ahead now.
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OK, I've tested out this build and it only seems to work if the OTHER protoss is the aggressor or if you go robo. If the toss is even remotely good, and goes for robo instead of 4 gate, you're screwed. Blink DOES NOT beat robo play. If you try to snipe the colossus, you are inviting your stalkers to be attacked by the remaining stalkers/zealots while your opponent micros his colossus. Granted, you will most likely kill the colossus, but it's a pyrrhic victory because you lose a lot of stalkers in the process. So this strat is not bad, but only if you follow it up with robo instead of twilight council.
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On July 07 2011 03:09 djqlue wrote: OK, I've tested out this build and it only seems to work if the OTHER protoss is the aggressor or if you go robo. If the toss is even remotely good, and goes for robo instead of 4 gate, you're screwed. Blink DOES NOT beat robo play. If you try to snipe the colossus, you are inviting your stalkers to be attacked by the remaining stalkers/zealots while your opponent micros his colossus. Granted, you will most likely kill the colossus, but it's a pyrrhic victory because you lose a lot of stalkers in the process. So this strat is not bad, but only if you follow it up with robo instead of twilight council.
This build is more about the opening rather than the blink play. Blink can beat robo. You're just not playing blink correctly.
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Hi Anihc, what is your opinion on gas stealing vs someone who is going for a 3s rush ?
(from this build's point of view, or in general)
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On July 07 2011 03:19 Geiko wrote: Hi Anihc, what is your opinion on gas stealing vs someone who is going for a 3s rush ?
(from this build's point of view, or in general)
I don't know. I don't usually gas steal so since I don't have any experience on it I can't comment. Sounds like it's a good idea from others, I should start trying it :p
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On July 07 2011 03:19 Geiko wrote: Hi Anihc, what is your opinion on gas stealing vs someone who is going for a 3s rush ?
(from this build's point of view, or in general) I know you didn't ask me but... If the 3 Stalker rusher 13 Gates, he has enough minerals to get an Assimilator while the core is constructing, without interrupting the build. This allows you to take your second Assimilator earlier than you want to start mining, but in time to prevent a gas steal. Alternatively you can order a zealot in the event the opponent steals your gas. This sets you back by 100 minerals (and you need an earlier pylon to up your 26 supply max), but your opponent is set back by 75 minerals as well. Then you continue with your 3 Stalker rush with the third one being slightly delayed by the Zealot + pylon.
If the 3 Stalker rusher 9 Pylon scouted, he'll be at a deficit of about 100 minerals, so he can't afford to make that adjustment, in which a gas steal would suck. I haven't played with 9 pylon scout for a while, so I'm unsure of what to do if gas is stolen.
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On July 07 2011 04:06 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 03:19 Geiko wrote: Hi Anihc, what is your opinion on gas stealing vs someone who is going for a 3s rush ?
(from this build's point of view, or in general) I know you didn't ask me but... If the 3 Stalker rusher 13 Gates, he has enough minerals to get an Assimilator while the core is constructing, without interrupting the build. This allows you to take your second Assimilator earlier than you want to start mining, but in time to prevent a gas steal. Alternatively you can order a zealot in the event the opponent steals your gas. This sets you back by 100 minerals (and you need an earlier pylon to up your 26 supply max), but your opponent is set back by 75 minerals as well. Then you continue with your 3 Stalker rush with the third one being slightly delayed by the Zealot + pylon. If the 3 Stalker rusher 9 Pylon scouted, he'll be at a deficit of about 100 minerals, so he can't afford to make that adjustment, in which a gas steal would suck. I haven't played with 9 pylon scout for a while, so I'm unsure of what to do if gas is stolen.
Thanks for this, I will have to try out the timings. So basically it's always a good idea to gas steal someone who isn't getting a zealot (if you can) ?
But regarding the 3 stalker into 4 gate problem that came up in the discussion, if the protoss does what you say, 13 gates and take a very early assimilator, he won't be able to cancel it before your probe dies, and the 4 gate will be delayed and weekened (thus probably defendable without the sentry and with an additional stalker)
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On July 07 2011 04:18 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 04:06 CecilSunkure wrote:On July 07 2011 03:19 Geiko wrote: Hi Anihc, what is your opinion on gas stealing vs someone who is going for a 3s rush ?
(from this build's point of view, or in general) I know you didn't ask me but... If the 3 Stalker rusher 13 Gates, he has enough minerals to get an Assimilator while the core is constructing, without interrupting the build. This allows you to take your second Assimilator earlier than you want to start mining, but in time to prevent a gas steal. Alternatively you can order a zealot in the event the opponent steals your gas. This sets you back by 100 minerals (and you need an earlier pylon to up your 26 supply max), but your opponent is set back by 75 minerals as well. Then you continue with your 3 Stalker rush with the third one being slightly delayed by the Zealot + pylon. If the 3 Stalker rusher 9 Pylon scouted, he'll be at a deficit of about 100 minerals, so he can't afford to make that adjustment, in which a gas steal would suck. I haven't played with 9 pylon scout for a while, so I'm unsure of what to do if gas is stolen. Thanks for this, I will have to try out the timings. So basically it's always a good idea to gas steal someone who isn't getting a zealot (if you can) ? But regarding the 3 stalker into 4 gate problem that came up in the discussion, if the protoss does what you say, 13 gates and take a very early assimilator, he won't be able to cancel it before your probe dies, and the 4 gate will be delayed and weekened (thus probably defendable without the sentry and with an additional stalker) No you don't want to always gas steal. I would gas steal only in a BoX series if I thought my opponent was going to want to do a build with an early Assimilator. I don't think it's a good idea to regularly practice gas steals, or rely on them, as if you do your whole strategy can be bypassed by simply getting the Assimilator before you do. It's not something you should rely on doing ever, but if the opportunity arises, go for it.
3 Stalker into 4 gate problem? Well if you're going to 4 gate I don't think you'd want to let the Assimilator finish. If he sees you cancel it, it's not the end of the world, as either way you're 4 gating. It's more important to try to prevent a gas steal so early on than to let him see you cancel the second Assimilator. Does that answer what you were asking?
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I'm glad someone mentioned gas stealing as I was going to ask about it as well.
Because now I know this build and want to practice it vs 4 gates, obviously no one is 4gating me anymore. Very annoying. Anyway, I've been squeezing in a gas steal when you put down your second gate and Assimilator so to try and encourage a 4gate, scouting dependent.
I was also going to ask your thoughts on it.
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On July 06 2011 01:58 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 01:35 Deathmare wrote: When you say "The game is practically won if he 4gates" you're just plain wrong. He has more unit producing capabilities than you. Eventually he'll overpower you if he isn't stupid about it. No, you are just plain wrong. 4 gates runs out of ressources very fast. Fast enough so he doesn't have a significant unit lead on you. He cannot go up the ramp or he will get FFed and lose everything. The only thing he can hope to do is setup a contain. You can easily squeeze in a twilight council once the first 5:50 push is over. Once your tech is done, if he hasn't pulled back by then you can just kill everything he has. You are way ahead as : -he has lost some units trying to go up your ramp -he has wasted ressources on a 4th gate -he has cut probes and greatly delayed his second gas. For anyone who knows how to play PvP, anyone of these conditions means that you will have a VERY hard time getting back into the game.
I'm really skeptical of this 3 gate build defending a well executed 4gate rush. Assuming he plants both pylons at the bottom of your ramp, when he pokes up with his 1zealot 1stalker against your 1zealot 1stalker 1 sentry, you are forced to use your FF early or risk getting your sentry sniped. So by the time the first wave of units hit you won't be able to split his army and eventually just get overrun.
To those who keep saying that 3gate is enough to spend all resources off 1 base with a pure stalker army, it's true. BUT with 4 gates your unit cycles start overlapping due to that extra 1 gate production, thus you'll be ahead in unit count at certain periods of times which is all the aggressor needs to win the battle.
I read a post dismissing the use of this double proxy pylons at ramp style and i'm curious why. The only build i can see that effectively counters or prevents the proxy pylons from being laid is the 3 stalker rush build and that build is easily scoutable.
Edit - Oh and i forgot to mention that a typical 4gate would have 5 chronos on the warpgate tech? Well, at least that's what it seems like in SEA GM league. So won't the aggressor's warp ins come earlier than yours since you only use 4 chronos on your warpgate tech?
2nd Edit - bleh typo. not expo =/
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United States8476 Posts
On July 07 2011 05:46 JaFF wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 01:58 Geiko wrote:On July 06 2011 01:35 Deathmare wrote: When you say "The game is practically won if he 4gates" you're just plain wrong. He has more unit producing capabilities than you. Eventually he'll overpower you if he isn't stupid about it. No, you are just plain wrong. 4 gates runs out of ressources very fast. Fast enough so he doesn't have a significant unit lead on you. He cannot go up the ramp or he will get FFed and lose everything. The only thing he can hope to do is setup a contain. You can easily squeeze in a twilight council once the first 5:50 push is over. Once your tech is done, if he hasn't pulled back by then you can just kill everything he has. You are way ahead as : -he has lost some units trying to go up your ramp -he has wasted ressources on a 4th gate -he has cut probes and greatly delayed his second gas. For anyone who knows how to play PvP, anyone of these conditions means that you will have a VERY hard time getting back into the game. I'm really skeptical of this 3 gate expo build defending a well executed 4gate rush. Assuming he plants both pylons at the bottom of your ramp, when he pokes up with his 1zealot 1stalker against your 1zealot 1stalker 1 sentry, you are forced to use your FF early or risk getting your sentry sniped. So by the time the first wave of units hit you won't be able to split his army and eventually just get overrun. To those who keep saying that 3gate is enough to spend all resources off 1 base with a pure stalker army, it's true. BUT with 4 gates your unit cycles start overlapping due to that extra 1 gate production, thus you'll be ahead in unit count at certain periods of times which is all the aggressor needs to win the battle. I read a post dismissing the use of this double proxy pylons at ramp style and i'm curious why. The only build i can see that effectively counters or prevents the proxy pylons from being laid is the 3 stalker rush build and that build is easily scoutable. Edit - Oh and i forgot to mention that a typical 4gate would have 5 chronos on the warpgate tech? Well, at least that's what it seems like in SEA GM league. So won't the aggressor's warp ins come earlier than yours since you only use 4 chronos on your warpgate tech?
It's not a 3 gate expo build.
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Two pylon at ramp is a questionable style. If I chose to get a second stalker out of that gate instead of a sentry, this pretty much shuts it down right there.
Even if you decide to do that, I feel like walking up the ramp before your first wave of units is done is suicide. Basically, I have 3 stalker + 1 zealot + 1 sentry at 5:33 which gives me a full 10 seconds to kill off your stuff before your warp in arrives. 1 zealot + 1 stalker is going to do exactly 0 damage to all of that, I can pull sentry back and micro it so it doesn't get sniped. I warp in 2 sentries and a stalker and FF my ramp constantly. Warping in units 4 at a time is going to get them killed very fast. After that it's all a micro battle, but in theory I can still hold a suicide double pylon attack.
If you're interested to try, we can do a couple of games on the EU server. (geiko.813)
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Unfortunately i'm stuck at SEA
4 gate initial warpins come at 5:35-5:40. Warping in sentries is the worst response as the proxy pylons basically bypasses your FFs. (You can warp in stuff over FFs unless you throw down 2 FFs at a time)
I feel that your build will be a lot safer if you spent 5 chronoboosts on your warpgate instead of 4. Without the extra chronoboost the aggressor has a whole 10seconds where he has a slightly superior army with reinforcements right at your door step. With proper micro and zealot splitting to mineral line i feel 4gate will just over run 3gates due to the extra production.
Maybe i'll see if i can get someone to learn the build so i can post replays if you're still unconvinced
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Ok we did some testing with Harstem (very high master like 1940, he trains PvP with pro players) who didn't beleive it could hold off the kind of 4 gate you are talking about. You are right, that sentries aren't useful, jusrt massing stalkers works fine. I just beat his 4gate with double pylon at the ramp straight up in all the games we played. Here are two of them, I even screw up the build, forget to warp in gates etc...
He pretty much tried everything, focusing down the sentry, the stalker, waiting for reinforcement etc... My build is really safe against 4 gate I'll add these to the OP
edit to JaFF: the advantage of 5 CB vs 4 CB is really only 7 seconds. Fastest possible warp in I managed while 4 gating perfectly is 5:43. Fastest possible warp in with my build is 5:50
(those times are for completed units, so minus 5 seconds for when you spend the ressource) This is due to the fact that the last chronoboost isn't spend on the whole duration.
You might think that this 7 lead is a lot, but in fact I have the unit advantage at first : 1s + 1z + 1sentry vs 1s + 1z I then have 10 seconds of an even greater advantage 3s + 1 z + 1 sentry vs 1s + 1z (enventually an additional s coming soon) Then he gets 7 seconds of 2 unit advantage ( I get a couple free shots on his warping in units as well) and then it's just back and forth. The thing is I am getting pure stalker while he has to make zealots. You have the stalker advantage pretty much always, so you can just run and avoid the zealots while shooting the stalkers down.
Also after having given it some though, the third chronoboost on probes combined with the early gas could trigger a 4 gate from an opponent thinking I am too greedy. I think either variation (3rd CB on nexus or on stalker and delayed gas or not) is viable.
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Well it can be significant (the 7 second delay between not having, or having 3 additional stalkers), as you can just blow away the pylons being placed down to begin with, or snipe a poorly positioned unit (like a stalker dies in 2 volleys from 6 stalkers)
Not a huge deal but worth noting. Another strength of having it earlier is warping in at the same time, so never at any point in time does the 4gater have "momentum". I guess it should also be noted that if you have a sentry and 6 stalkers already shooting at the other player as they approach your ramp, they may cancel the pylons immediately, cut their loses in the early game, start remaking probees and go home, but they will be supply blocked for 30 seconds so this hurts them as much as anything.
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An additional chrono on warpgate is useless since my stalkers are timed so they finish exactly when warpgate research is done (after 4 CB). Seriously, after having done a lot of tests, you just don't need that extra chronoboost.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 07 2011 04:06 CecilSunkure wrote: If the 3 Stalker rusher 9 Pylon scouted, he'll be at a deficit of about 100 minerals, so he can't afford to make that adjustment, in which a gas steal would suck. I haven't played with 9 pylon scout for a while, so I'm unsure of what to do if gas is stolen.
This is wrong. The difference in timing between a 9 and 12 scout is approximately 50 seconds and each probe that's one of the first 16 probes yields 39-45 minerals/minute. Thus, the difference between a 9 scout and a 12 scout is about 35 minerals.
Also, it's been explained before but if you get the chance you should always gas steal a 3 stalker build if you recognize it and are given the opportunity to. There was a bo5 series between kiwikaki and minigun a while back in the finals of a tournament where in almost every game both players did the 3 stalker rush and if one player did that, the other would gas steal him. The reasoning behind it is as follows:
There are 2 possibilities after you steal the gas: 1. He kills the gas, although it'll take forever to kill and you'll be ahead on gas. However, the disadvantages of this decision are that: He's not safe anymore from a 4 gate. You know he's not super fast 4 gating you and you can play a bit more greedy.
2. He doesn't kill the gas: You know he's either going to 4 gate you or expand. Thus, you just have to go 4 gate yourself and either defend or attack his expo and win.
Both end results are in favor of the gas stealer.
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On July 08 2011 00:51 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 04:06 CecilSunkure wrote: If the 3 Stalker rusher 9 Pylon scouted, he'll be at a deficit of about 100 minerals, so he can't afford to make that adjustment, in which a gas steal would suck. I haven't played with 9 pylon scout for a while, so I'm unsure of what to do if gas is stolen. + Show Spoiler +This is wrong. The difference in timing between a 9 and 12 scout is approximately 50 seconds and each probe that's one of the first 16 probes yields 39-45 minerals/minute. Thus, the difference between a 9 scout and a 12 scout is about 35 minerals.
Also, it's been explained before but if you get the chance you should always gas steal a 3 stalker build if you recognize it and are given the opportunity to. There was a bo5 series between kiwikaki and minigun a while back in the finals of a tournament where in almost every game both players did the 3 stalker rush and if one player did that, the other would gas steal him. The reasoning behind it is as follows: There are 2 possibilities after you steal the gas: 1. He kills the gas, although it'll take forever to kill and you'll be ahead on gas. However, the disadvantages of this decision are that: He's not safe anymore from a 4 gate.+ Show Spoiler +You know he's not super fast 4 gating you and you can play a bit more greedy.
2. He doesn't kill the gas: You know he's either going to 4 gate you or expand. Thus, you just have to go 4 gate yourself and either defend or attack his expo and win.
Both end results are in favor of the gas stealer.
How come he's not safe anymore from a 4 gate?
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On July 08 2011 01:22 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 00:51 4kmonk wrote:On July 07 2011 04:06 CecilSunkure wrote: If the 3 Stalker rusher 9 Pylon scouted, he'll be at a deficit of about 100 minerals, so he can't afford to make that adjustment, in which a gas steal would suck. I haven't played with 9 pylon scout for a while, so I'm unsure of what to do if gas is stolen. + Show Spoiler +This is wrong. The difference in timing between a 9 and 12 scout is approximately 50 seconds and each probe that's one of the first 16 probes yields 39-45 minerals/minute. Thus, the difference between a 9 scout and a 12 scout is about 35 minerals.
Also, it's been explained before but if you get the chance you should always gas steal a 3 stalker build if you recognize it and are given the opportunity to. There was a bo5 series between kiwikaki and minigun a while back in the finals of a tournament where in almost every game both players did the 3 stalker rush and if one player did that, the other would gas steal him. The reasoning behind it is as follows: There are 2 possibilities after you steal the gas: 1. He kills the gas, although it'll take forever to kill and you'll be ahead on gas. However, the disadvantages of this decision are that: He's not safe anymore from a 4 gate.+ Show Spoiler +You know he's not super fast 4 gating you and you can play a bit more greedy.
2. He doesn't kill the gas: You know he's either going to 4 gate you or expand. Thus, you just have to go 4 gate yourself and either defend or attack his expo and win.
Both end results are in favor of the gas stealer. How come he's not safe anymore from a 4 gate?
3 stalker build defends against 4 gate by preventing proxy pylons from going up near your base, buying more time. If the stalkers are killing the gas, they are not denying those proxy pylons.
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On July 08 2011 01:22 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 00:51 4kmonk wrote:On July 07 2011 04:06 CecilSunkure wrote: If the 3 Stalker rusher 9 Pylon scouted, he'll be at a deficit of about 100 minerals, so he can't afford to make that adjustment, in which a gas steal would suck. I haven't played with 9 pylon scout for a while, so I'm unsure of what to do if gas is stolen. + Show Spoiler +This is wrong. The difference in timing between a 9 and 12 scout is approximately 50 seconds and each probe that's one of the first 16 probes yields 39-45 minerals/minute. Thus, the difference between a 9 scout and a 12 scout is about 35 minerals.
Also, it's been explained before but if you get the chance you should always gas steal a 3 stalker build if you recognize it and are given the opportunity to. There was a bo5 series between kiwikaki and minigun a while back in the finals of a tournament where in almost every game both players did the 3 stalker rush and if one player did that, the other would gas steal him. The reasoning behind it is as follows: There are 2 possibilities after you steal the gas: 1. He kills the gas, although it'll take forever to kill and you'll be ahead on gas. However, the disadvantages of this decision are that: He's not safe anymore from a 4 gate.+ Show Spoiler +You know he's not super fast 4 gating you and you can play a bit more greedy.
2. He doesn't kill the gas: You know he's either going to 4 gate you or expand. Thus, you just have to go 4 gate yourself and either defend or attack his expo and win.
Both end results are in favor of the gas stealer. How come he's not safe anymore from a 4 gate?
Because his Stalkers are stuck killing the gas instead of searching for Proxy Pylons.
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I find it interesting that a 3 gate variant is useful in every single matchup. 3 gate Sentry for PvZ, 3 gate pressure expand in PvT, and now this for PvP.
Kudos to the OP, I especially love that this plays safe and can quickly transition into many different mid-game plays. I am slightly leery of how this fares against Robo plays, as you yourself pointed out. If the enemy sees this, a Zealot/Immortal push may be able to crush it outright, though I'd have to see replays and timing.
I don't know if this has been brought up, but have you experimented with opening Defensive 3 Gate then cutting Probes and transitioning into 4 gate if he looks vulnerable? It seems like it might be a valid option, though I realize the point of a build like this is to move away from 4 gate as it is.
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On July 08 2011 00:51 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 04:06 CecilSunkure wrote: If the 3 Stalker rusher 9 Pylon scouted, he'll be at a deficit of about 100 minerals, so he can't afford to make that adjustment, in which a gas steal would suck. I haven't played with 9 pylon scout for a while, so I'm unsure of what to do if gas is stolen. This is wrong. The difference in timing between a 9 and 12 scout is approximately 50 seconds and each probe that's one of the first 16 probes yields 39-45 minerals/minute. Thus, the difference between a 9 scout and a 12 scout is about 35 minerals. Well I do 13 scout, and the difference feels about the same as an assimilator, so I said about 100 mineral difference. I don't really care so much about the exact amount, it's that you can take the vespene earlier that's really significant.
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On July 07 2011 09:18 Geiko wrote:Ok we did some testing with Harstem (very high master like 1940, he trains PvP with pro players) who didn't beleive it could hold off the kind of 4 gate you are talking about. You are right, that sentries aren't useful, jusrt massing stalkers works fine. I just beat his 4gate with double pylon at the ramp straight up in all the games we played. Here are two of them, I even screw up the build, forget to warp in gates etc...
Thanks for this. In the first replay, I feel that Harstem should have won (and you admitted already that you made mistakes in the BO). Nice build though.
And I'm guessing this build isn't viable on open ramp maps?
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Using this build im getting absolutely demolished by robo play. They go late gas robo, quick FF. When i pock with those 6 units, they already have immortal out. From there, they just mass immortals and stalkers. Doesn't matter If i contain, they have so many immortals. I tried expanding when they expand, and expanding before. Can't figure it out, seems like a BO loss to me. Any tips?
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On July 09 2011 08:17 brandog712 wrote: Using this build im getting absolutely demolished by robo play. They go late gas robo, quick FF. When i pock with those 6 units, they already have immortal out. From there, they just mass immortals and stalkers. Doesn't matter If i contain, they have so many immortals. I tried expanding when they expand, and expanding before. Can't figure it out, seems like a BO loss to me. Any tips? Post up the replay! Sounds to me like you're losing to earlier tech? This was pointed out as a weakness by a lot of people earlier in the thread.
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On July 09 2011 08:17 brandog712 wrote: Using this build im getting absolutely demolished by robo play. They go late gas robo, quick FF. When i pock with those 6 units, they already have immortal out. From there, they just mass immortals and stalkers. Doesn't matter If i contain, they have so many immortals. I tried expanding when they expand, and expanding before. Can't figure it out, seems like a BO loss to me. Any tips?
If you've made it past the early game with the correct gas timings, than the BO does what it is supposed to : set you up for the mid game with no tech disadvantage.
Sounds to me like you are losing blink play vs robo (which you shouldn't be) (at least not consistently). You should either practise playing blink vs robo (counter attack, constant poking, good blink micro), or try the opening with the robo transition if you really have no success with blink.
However, I would strongly suggest that you practise your blink play in PvP. It seems like more and more pro players are favouring this tech path, and pure robo play is falling out of style. The recent matches have shown pros get twilight and robo for observers.
Cecil what exactly do you mean by earlier tech ? You mean by the time you have blink (1 minute later than blink rushes) the robo player has already crossed the map, marched up your ramp through your forcefield and killed you ? ^
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First off, Geiko, this is such a well written guide, nice work!
There's something that I don't like, however; the fact that you reassure that it crushes 4 gate completly. You should add that to do it so you need good micro and a well placed Force Field (if you miss that FF you're oh so much trouble These might seem like obvious stuff at Masters level, but it's not so easy to execute for plat- leaguers. So I think you should clarify that in your OP post.
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On July 09 2011 09:27 Volka wrote:First off, Geiko, this is such a well written guide, nice work! There's something that I don't like, however; the fact that you reassure that it crushes 4 gate completly. You should add that to do it so you need good micro and a well placed Force Field (if you miss that FF you're oh so much trouble These might seem like obvious stuff at Masters level, but it's not so easy to execute for plat- leaguers. So I think you should clarify that in your OP post.
Well the thing is, for plat leaguers, the 4 gate comes 20-30 secs late so it's also a hell of a lot easier to hold. My post just assumes equal skill from both opponents. However it is true that you have some specific micro to do for different case scenarios, mainly be prepared to FF your ramp perfectly if he is massing units outside your base or be prepared to micro inside your base if he is sending in his units as he makes them.
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I've been trying this build every PvP lately to try it out. I usually go robo, so the blink opening is a bit out of my comfort zone, but it's useful to do that from time to time. My experiences in diamond are thus:
This seriously does hold 4-gate easily. If they go 1 gas and try to 4-gate, it seems almost like a build-order win for me. I love it!
If I scout a quick second gas (quicker than the 24 supply I am planning with this build) I get a bit put off of the build order. I want to place my gas at the same time as them to not get behind, but then it screws up the rest of the timings. And I know they're teching fast, so I don't want to put down the 3rd gate and delay my tech when I know I don't have to anymore. Deviating from the build before the 2nd gas and 2 extra gates go down is giving me trouble.
Because the tech comes after 3 gates, unless they're 4-gating their tech will go down faster. This has actually led to some awesome situations where I get to scout a fast robo before I've put down my own tech, allowing me to instantly throw down a stargate in response and have a huge midgame advantage. Of course, better players won't let me see their tech so easily.
If they open fast robo and have 2 or more immortals by the time blink finishes, I definitely can't attack. I'm not sure of the ideal followup here, but I've won games by going for charge and getting archons, and just expanding a bunch of times at different corners of the map.
I've lost twice now to DT rushes. Perhaps I have to be poking up the ramp a bit sooner after the 6 minute mark, but by the time a probe or stalker goes up their ramp and sees a high zealot count I haven't been able to get a cannon up by the time a DT shows up in my base. If anyone can share tips about being safer against DTs when doing this sort of blink opening I'd be glad to hear about it. Perhaps if I spot a really early 2nd gas I should just go robo straight up...
Anyway, the timings and idea of the build are brilliant! It really is "safe" PvP that won't set you too far behind in tech. But it does seem to set you behind a little, which can sometimes be all it takes to lose in PvP. I don't know if I like this or 3-stalker-rush (2-gate robo) better on maps with ramps, but this build is definitely easier and higher-percentage to defend 4-gate.
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On July 15 2011 02:51 GomJabbar wrote:
I've lost twice now to DT rushes. Perhaps I have to be poking up the ramp a bit sooner after the 6 minute mark, but by the time a probe or stalker goes up their ramp and sees a high zealot count I haven't been able to get a cannon up by the time a DT shows up in my base. If anyone can share tips about being safer against DTs when doing this sort of blink opening I'd be glad to hear about it. Perhaps if I spot a really early 2nd gas I should just go robo straight up...
If you do the poke and suspect DTs, put your Zealots on hold position on your ramp and be prepared to FF while you get some detection.
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On July 15 2011 03:47 Volka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 02:51 GomJabbar wrote:
I've lost twice now to DT rushes. Perhaps I have to be poking up the ramp a bit sooner after the 6 minute mark, but by the time a probe or stalker goes up their ramp and sees a high zealot count I haven't been able to get a cannon up by the time a DT shows up in my base. If anyone can share tips about being safer against DTs when doing this sort of blink opening I'd be glad to hear about it. Perhaps if I spot a really early 2nd gas I should just go robo straight up...
If you do the poke and suspect DTs, put your Zealots on hold position on your ramp and be prepared to FF while you get some detection. I actually did that with my entire army. Both times. Still wasn't enough time for the cannon to get up, before it chopped through enough of my army to make it up the ramp. In one instance, it had killed so much of my army that the rest of his army (he had committed to 1 or 2 DTs) could rush up the ramp and kill me.
I'm sure I'm just not making the cannon/forge early enough. What's a good time to poke up his ramp once the 4-gate time period has passed?
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On July 15 2011 05:09 GomJabbar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 03:47 Volka wrote:On July 15 2011 02:51 GomJabbar wrote:
I've lost twice now to DT rushes. Perhaps I have to be poking up the ramp a bit sooner after the 6 minute mark, but by the time a probe or stalker goes up their ramp and sees a high zealot count I haven't been able to get a cannon up by the time a DT shows up in my base. If anyone can share tips about being safer against DTs when doing this sort of blink opening I'd be glad to hear about it. Perhaps if I spot a really early 2nd gas I should just go robo straight up...
If you do the poke and suspect DTs, put your Zealots on hold position on your ramp and be prepared to FF while you get some detection. I actually did that with my entire army. Both times. Still wasn't enough time for the cannon to get up, before it chopped through enough of my army to make it up the ramp. In one instance, it had killed so much of my army that the rest of his army (he had committed to 1 or 2 DTs) could rush up the ramp and kill me. I'm sure I'm just not making the cannon/forge early enough. What's a good time to poke up his ramp once the 4-gate time period has passed?
Poke up the ramp with your first units (zealot + 3/6 stalkers + sentry). You can also put a probe right at the bottom of the ramp to bait some units. If he comes down with a couple units, FF behind them and enjoy the free kills ^^.
Concerning the DT defense, you didn't understand how it is supposed to work ^^. You put a bit of your army (2 zealots or 1z + 1s) on hold position at your ramp. When he strats cutting through it, you FF your ramp so the DTs can't get in. Once the FF goes up you don't let the DTs keep on attacking your army :D. Immediately get forge + robo while the DTs are stuck behind the FFs and keep on FFing every 14 seconds. you should have 4 FFs with your initial sentry, then you can warp in 2 (or 3 if you missed a FF) sentries to get 2 more FFs. By that time your cannon should be complete.
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Thanks Geiko, that sounds like really good advice. I'll keep at it!
Also want to add that I held off a master's 4-gate with this build yesterday (I'm diamond). He contained and expanded while I got blink. I should've had the game won but I decided to attack down the ramp into his concave and got my army crushed :/ overestimated my blink micro. Still, until that point I was ahead in army and workers and tech!
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Does this build work on Tal'darin?? I've got tons of troubles when I played on this map. Absolutely frustrated...
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Geiko, is it possible for you to post a replay with you winning the game using blink. I've been having trouble using blink effectively with this build.
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On July 09 2011 08:17 brandog712 wrote: Using this build im getting absolutely demolished by robo play. They go late gas robo, quick FF. When i pock with those 6 units, they already have immortal out. From there, they just mass immortals and stalkers. Doesn't matter If i contain, they have so many immortals. I tried expanding when they expand, and expanding before. Can't figure it out, seems like a BO loss to me. Any tips? Immortals in PvP? Well, get 2 collosi and win then. Just cut his army in half if he tries to push up your ramp before they are out. If your opponent goes heavy immortal, you will always have collosi earlier, which means more.
Zealot + colli beats immortal stalker, easily.
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This really seems like a solid and well-refined build, very good job Geiko. I'm curious though, as many has pointed out this build seems relatively weak against early and greedy tech such as early immortals. I know this is scoutable, I'm just curious what you can do out of this build if you're certain a 4gate is coming and realize too late he has one or two immortals up. Have you considered this?
Again, very well made and please keep making builds this well-refined! It's a pleasure reading the OP
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On July 16 2011 15:49 TheRealFluid wrote: Geiko, is it possible for you to post a replay with you winning the game using blink. I've been having trouble using blink effectively with this build.
So, I finally got a decent computer back (2 weeks without competitive SC2 ). I don't have any replays except for the couple of ladder games I played yesterday. I usually don't post low level replays (I play at around the 1600 Master level), and my execution is terrible, but it's all I got !
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Thank you Geiko! I have grinded a few games against AI and got this build down, i think this will help me tremendous in my PvP. Silly 4 gate.
Of to grind for a promotion!
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I played a guy going chargelot/archon on 1 base. He even had a forge upgrading +1 and my blinkstalker army still got rolled. Would you say it´s possible to play blinkstalkers vs this army composition?
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I'm late to the party, but will check it out when I can. THx
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Pretty good start (although you were 15 or so seconds late on the build). What lost you the game was that pylon blockage that got you 1 colossus late, and also that terrible decision to not go and kill that last colo with 28 hp. Engagements could have been better, but other than that your macro is good and map awareness also. I think you left the game too early. 10 seconds later you could have matched his army count, and you still had the probe lead. Then a DT switch (into zealot archon), and with a bit of luck you kill 5 or 6 probes and you are still in the game.
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On July 19 2011 04:34 Harmonized wrote: I played a guy going chargelot/archon on 1 base. He even had a forge upgrading +1 and my blinkstalker army still got rolled. Would you say it´s possible to play blinkstalkers vs this army composition?
I got rolled too by a guy who went 1 base chargelots recently ^^ The mistake I made was to go deep in his main and get surrounded by chargelots. If you fight them on the ramp, with blink micro you should beat this. Get a robo when you can (they'll most likely get a dt shrine for archons) and abuse cliffs with obs + blink stalker.
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On July 19 2011 04:59 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 04:34 Harmonized wrote: I played a guy going chargelot/archon on 1 base. He even had a forge upgrading +1 and my blinkstalker army still got rolled. Would you say it´s possible to play blinkstalkers vs this army composition? I got rolled too by a guy who went 1 base chargelots recently ^^ The mistake I made was to go deep in his main and get surrounded by chargelots. If you fight them on the ramp, with blink micro you should beat this. Get a robo when you can (they'll most likely get a dt shrine for archons) and abuse cliffs with obs + blink stalker.
I'd like to add to this... When playing against chargelots, he obviously has a lot more DPS, but the key here is to stay inside or close to your natural choke (if you have one) or any other one (like the side of xel'naga, passages into your territory in Typhon), and FF off a few chargelots and pick them off as you come back to your base, everytime charge comes back, FF again, the archons will break, but the charge will have worn off and give you more time to kite. If they are right in your base, same rules apply, you just have to be aware of the damage they're doing to your base. Once you're forced to engage, do blink micro, and after the pick-off's you've done, you should come out ahead. Be sure to add zeals of your own during your warp-ins during this time to give you tanking... You don't need many probably not even more than 3, but that will give you time to kill an extra 5 or so zeals. After you kill the majority of the zealots, snipe the archons, and then warp in sentries, as FF will be your savior. If he comes in with more archons, it won't be more than 2, or have no zeal support, so it won't be a problem. GL and HF!
Mainly, FF well, be aware of archon breaks (if they're in front, FF behind them, and force no dps while they break for the rest of the zeals, if they're in back, ff off 5 or so chargelots to force them to bring up the archons and waste APM), and blink micro to come out ahead when engagement is neccessary!
Also, if he's going mainly archons, less chargelots, archons kinda just die to blink stalkers, so don't worry about the FF, you'd be better off with a GS.
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what do you do against somebody who opens robo into immortals and get blinks to keep up with your mobility?
do you not expand unless he does and what unit composition should you go?
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On July 21 2011 08:07 DoctaD wrote: what do you do against somebody who opens robo into immortals and get blinks to keep up with your mobility?
do you not expand unless he does and what unit composition should you go?
These type of questions are out of the scope of this thread as my build's only purpose is to get you to the mid game with no economic or tech disadvantage. Noone is qualified yet to right a full guide on PvP and there are many different options you can do in response to immortal into blink. Personally, if your opponent isn't senselessly massing unit and is getting multiple tech path, I always feel it's a good idea to get a robo when you can afford it. Observers will give you even more mobility and, when fighting an immortal + stalker army, immortals are going to be usefull as well.
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It seems good, but anyways a simple mistake and you are dead, like all well excecuted 4 Gates
I will try it, but actually the ones I am using are
1) TriStalker (Then the Robotics being ready) 2) Forge + 2 Cannon + AnyTech (Twilight, Robo or Stargate)
The problema actually is not "stopping" the 4 Gates, it is that if you do it in a defensive way, you can't sometimes end the game right there after his push, even if you are ahead
I will try it and test for myself. Also aren't you the Master who was Plat and ranked with All In ussing Terran?
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On July 21 2011 08:26 Sogetsu wrote: It seems good, but anyways a simple mistake and you are dead, like all well excecuted 4 Gates
I will try it, but actually the ones I am using are
1) TriStalker (Then the Robotics being ready) 2) Forge + 2 Cannon + AnyTech (Twilight, Robo or Stargate)
The problema actually is not "stopping" the 4 Gates, it is that if you do it in a defensive way, you can't sometimes end the game right there after his push, even if you are ahead
I will try it and test for myself. Also aren't you the Master who was Plat and ranked with All In ussing Terran?
It's actually a quite resilient build. If you look at the replays vs harstem (very high level master, his 4 gate beats grandmasters like mouzMana) you'll see that I held it off even though I was missmicroing a bit, and even forgot to warp in a gate way.
As you said, stopping the 4 gate is easy, this build aims at stopping the 4 gate AND not sacrifing econ and tech to do so.
3 stalker rush is a good build.
forge + 2 cannons + seems like it will die to either a pure blink build or a fast expansion uppon scouting the cannons.
And yes I'm that guy, I get that alot (although I wasn't plat, just my terran was ~plat level). That thread got sooo many views ^^ Last week I played VTdesrow on the ladder and he asked me if i was THE geiko from the 3 rax build :p
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On July 21 2011 08:26 Sogetsu wrote:
The problema actually is not "stopping" the 4 Gates, it is that if you do it in a defensive way, you can't sometimes end the game right there after his push, even if you are ahead
Whenever you expect to hold a 4gate, you should have a proxy or at least a probe somewhere nearish his ramp... just for this reason...
this also applies when playing against terran..
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Would this work on Tal ' Darim altar? Would about if you replace the Sentry with a Stalker, or would their extra reinforcements still be too much to handle?
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On July 21 2011 08:50 epikAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal ' Darim altar? Would about if you replace the Sentry with a Stalker, or would their extra reinforcements still be too much to handle?
If you theorycraft a whole bunch, it should work if you hide your sentry in a corner and double FF the choke when he tries to get in, cutting half of his army off. In reality, it just never works like that and I have never managed to pull it off vs good players. Defensive 4 gate still seems like the best build for this map, or some sort of naniwa build where you get 2 gates, and then get 2 gates later once you have confirmed that a 4 gate is coming (which it will most of the time)
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IMO, this build is pretty good against 4 gates. However, if your opponent goes for quick blink or robo build, you will be a bit behind in tech. So far, i think if you're not afraid of 4 gates (and you actually want your opponent to 4-gate you in this case), it's better to show him the 2nd gas. A lot of protoss players, after seeing the 2nd gas, will probably show their true build by making the 2nd gas themselves, and you will be free to tech-up faster. If their intentions are to 4-gate you, they will definitely do so after they saw your 2nd gas anyway.
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On July 21 2011 08:36 Geiko wrote:It's actually a quite resilient build. If you look at the replays vs harstem (very high level master, his 4 gate beats grandmasters like mouzMana) you'll see that I held it off even though I was missmicroing a bit, and even forgot to warp in a gate way. As you said, stopping the 4 gate is easy, this build aims at stopping the 4 gate AND not sacrifing econ and tech to do so. 3 stalker rush is a good build. forge + 2 cannons + seems like it will die to either a pure blink build or a fast expansion uppon scouting the cannons. And yes I'm that guy, I get that alot (although I wasn't plat, just my terran was ~plat level). That thread got sooo many views ^^ Last week I played VTdesrow on the ladder and he asked me if i was THE geiko from the 3 rax build :p
Ah Ok, I will review it. Anyways, the idea of the Cannons is a timing defense, not early, just in time, then your enemy could not scout them until he comes to rush The timing was something like 4:00 Minutes Forge starting, then you end with 2 Cannons exactly when 4 Gates is gonna hit you. Supporting the defense with 2 Gates + Robo/Twilight/Stargate , you can defend and Tech Anyways you need to constantly scout him to see how he reacts when the 4 Gates Fails , because like you said, if he decides to go Blink after the Fail Rush, or Expa inmediatly after failing, yo need to Expand or Tech ASAP to counter him
I was really surprised when a GM give me that advice, but it works if you can scout the 4 Gates, negate your enemy' scout from minute 4 mark, and react properly when you see what is he gonna trying after the fail 4 Gate Rush (Expa or More Tech All In)
PD: What level were you playing Protoss when doing the 3 Rax rank? And also, is it a good idea to rank fast without getting many skills? I am teaching some players and my friends told me "Teach them 4 Gates", but I do not want to do it untill they get at leas basci concepts in macro, and can reach a dcente Mid Game ( they'rereally low leagues)
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On July 21 2011 08:57 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 08:50 epikAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal ' Darim altar? Would about if you replace the Sentry with a Stalker, or would their extra reinforcements still be too much to handle? If you theorycraft a whole bunch, it should work if you hide your sentry in a corner and double FF the choke when he tries to get in, cutting half of his army off. In reality, it just never works like that and I have never managed to pull it off vs good players. Defensive 4 gate still seems like the best build for this map, or some sort of naniwa build where you get 2 gates, and then get 2 gates later once you have confirmed that a 4 gate is coming (which it will most of the time)
I've seen many people try using many variations of using sentries to hold off a 4 gate in tal darim. I've yet to see it work.
Anything other than zeal/stalker 4 gate just loses to standard 4 gate unfortunately.
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Thanks gonna have to try this.
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As a thought about Tal'Darim, what about using this same build, but cutting Stalkers completely and going straight Zealot/Sentry with Charge (and upgrades if gas allows)? You can use the same advantage as them: With no real chokes, Zealots can cause havoc with surrounds and the like. I wouldn't be sure at all about timings, but it seems feasible given the open-ness of the map.
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On July 22 2011 00:11 Requizen wrote: As a thought about Tal'Darim, what about using this same build, but cutting Stalkers completely and going straight Zealot/Sentry with Charge (and upgrades if gas allows)? You can use the same advantage as them: With no real chokes, Zealots can cause havoc with surrounds and the like. I wouldn't be sure at all about timings, but it seems feasible given the open-ness of the map. 4 gate will kill you 2 years before charge finishes
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On July 21 2011 08:26 Sogetsu wrote: It seems good, but anyways a simple mistake and you are dead, like all well excecuted 4 Gates
I will try it, but actually the ones I am using are
1) TriStalker (Then the Robotics being ready) 2) Forge + 2 Cannon + AnyTech (Twilight, Robo or Stargate)
The problema actually is not "stopping" the 4 Gates, it is that if you do it in a defensive way, you can't sometimes end the game right there after his push, even if you are ahead
I will try it and test for myself. Also aren't you the Master who was Plat and ranked with All In ussing Terran?
3 Stalker is similar to this build in that it can hold off 4 Gate reasonably well, but your Forge + Cannon build actually works? I would assume somebody would just throw down a Robo once they see the Forge and hit a little bit later with a Warp Prism in your main.
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On July 22 2011 00:19 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:11 Requizen wrote: As a thought about Tal'Darim, what about using this same build, but cutting Stalkers completely and going straight Zealot/Sentry with Charge (and upgrades if gas allows)? You can use the same advantage as them: With no real chokes, Zealots can cause havoc with surrounds and the like. I wouldn't be sure at all about timings, but it seems feasible given the open-ness of the map. 4 gate will kill you 2 years before charge finishes
Maybe, but my thought is that you play it almost like PvZ early game, where you just forgo Stalkers and have enough Sentries to FF until you have your tech. To be fair, I realize that defensive 4-gate (with or without upgrades) is a much better option, I'm just saying for the sake of variety.
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On July 22 2011 00:52 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:19 zezamer wrote:On July 22 2011 00:11 Requizen wrote: As a thought about Tal'Darim, what about using this same build, but cutting Stalkers completely and going straight Zealot/Sentry with Charge (and upgrades if gas allows)? You can use the same advantage as them: With no real chokes, Zealots can cause havoc with surrounds and the like. I wouldn't be sure at all about timings, but it seems feasible given the open-ness of the map. 4 gate will kill you 2 years before charge finishes Maybe, but my thought is that you play it almost like PvZ early game, where you just forgo Stalkers and have enough Sentries to FF until you have your tech. To be fair, I realize that defensive 4-gate (with or without upgrades) is a much better option, I'm just saying for the sake of variety.
TC/Charge that early sucks up a lot of gas. I'm not sure how you think you'll be able to constantly warp-in Sentries while getting that tech AND having enough minerals for a healthy number of Zealots for when he inevitably gets up your ramp. Sentries take forever to kill low-ground Pylons and all it takes is one Stalker part-way up the ramp for him to warp-in Zealots and end the game.
I've had some success teching as quickly as possible to DT, and trying to delay the proxy Pylon/first warp of Stalkers with Zealots. I mean straight-up sacrificing 5 Zealots and forcing him to kite them around with his Stalkers. If I do this as far away from my main as possible, I've been able to start warping in DT's right when his 4-gate enters my base. From there it's about splitting off a DT to go to his base and protecting your Probes/Pylons from his 4 Gate. Haven't gotten the timings nailed down though.
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On July 04 2011 22:11 NB wrote: good build but you have a wrong aproach to how to counter 4 gate. when you have 1 stalker 1 sentry 1 zealot up and you 2nd and 3rd stalkers are coming. There will be a probes spamming 2 pylon at your ramp with 2 stalkers 1 zealot protecting it. What would happen is that the zealot poke up the ramp, see the dps is much much less than what he has and you will have to use your 1st FF there. When the pylons complete and you still have FF, instead of wraping in stalkers, those will be zealot contesting ur defends (they wrap in on your ramp which FF cant block what so ever). From there the 3 gate will slowly be out produced by 4 gate under the condition that you cant make sentry to counter zealot in that case.
a better variation of the build could be placing your 2nd pylon at the ramp and have your 2nd and 3rd gate there. But it will be scouted and the other player could just tech switch seeing such a wall of with probe scout early.
your build is designed to kill a delayed 4 gate where you hope you could win the early micro 1 stalker 1 zealot battle to get out ahead. Its not a complete safe build and got countered the same way day9/tyler immo rush build except in the immo build you have the DPS to kill the pylons.
TLDR: you have no DPS to deny proxy pylon what so ever.
Please don't comment unless you read the article, he explains clearly what he believes is the best thing to do in this situation
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I'm a platinum league protoss and I've been looking for a solid pvp build that not only can counter 4 gate but also transitions well into tech. This build with the 2 gas is exactly what I've been looking for, thank you!
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Always love your builds Geiko. Ill give this a shot <3
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I've been playing this build more and more (basically every PvP lately) and I think that it's truly brilliant. More general thoughts:
Yes, this beats 4-gate. I haven't lost to 4-gate with this build yet. Although I haven't tried it yet on Tal'Darim, I plan to, because I'm not convinced it won't work until I test it.
Because this build is about "safe" PvP, I want to mention that modern robo-then-twilight seems way safer as a followup than straight up blink. The only time I think I might advocate blink straight up is after holding a 4-gate. Their tech will be so late, and they'll probably contain and expand, that you'll win with the blink push. Plus, you'll have more units and blink fits the money expenditure well too (as Geiko says in the OP).
I chrono warp gate and the first stalker rather than 3rd chrono on probes. Makes them think it's 4-gate and play less greedy (hopefully). Although if their probe sticks around they'll see the 2nd gas before the stalker pops, of course.
With that said, when I scout an early 2nd gas from opponent indicating a tech build, I skip the sentry and sometimes even the 3rd gate and put down a robo pretty fast. IMO this is the safest response to seeing any early tech. Based on what my scouting stalker sees, I can choose to make a fast observer (if I suspect DTs) or chrono immortals (if he's going blink).
I then add on a twilight council pretty quickly. At this point, it's possible to go blink+immortals, so you can beat their pure blink army and then chase them down. I can go blink in order to harass with observers for vision, while expanding and later adding whatever tech (most likely charge+archons) that I want. It's possible to go fast charge and add a templar archives for archons. Chargelot+Archon+Immortal is actually an amazing composition and beats colossus armies (I'm not 100% sure about very late-game armies with ~8 colossi though, games rarely go that long). I can even go DTs if I scout no detection from opponent with the observer (or if he went blink or DT himself and it was thwarted thanks to the robo). Tons of followups, and you get a ton of scouting because you have a robo bay that you AREN'T dedicating to super fast colossus production. 2 observers are standard. "Safe" is the best way to describe this followup, and it works perfectly fine as a followup/deviation from Geiko's truly "Safe" opening.
Replays (this is customs between high diamond players, so grain of salt!):
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I can nvr get the 3 stalkers, 1 zealot, 1 sentry by the 5.45 mrk :/
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I can manage everything warping in at 5:55, nothing faster though:/ (bringing the total to 6 stalker 1 zealot 1 sentry).
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That's what I can manage as well Xahhk. I can nvr match the OP though in his versus AI perfect replay.
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On July 25 2011 10:28 Xahhk wrote: I can manage everything warping in at 5:55, nothing faster though:/ (bringing the total to 6 stalker 1 zealot 1 sentry).
5:55 is fine ^^ As you go up the leagues, your execution will become better naturally. Being late by a couple of seconds doesn't mean that you'll auto lose, it just means that you'll have to micro a little harder. Besides, most 4 gates don't hit at 5:43 either (even in GM league)
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On July 25 2011 19:36 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 10:28 Xahhk wrote: I can manage everything warping in at 5:55, nothing faster though:/ (bringing the total to 6 stalker 1 zealot 1 sentry). 5:55 is fine ^^ As you go up the leagues, your execution will become better naturally. Being late by a couple of seconds doesn't mean that you'll auto lose, it just means that you'll have to micro a little harder. Besides, most 4 gates don't hit at 5:43 either (even in GM league)
Yea, when you're laddering and play game after game it's hard to stay focused for every one. I'm high master's and I 4gate most PvPs, I check times afterward and my initial warp comes anytime from 5:45 to sometimes like 6 minutes (lol) depending on if my focus slips on chronoboost or with my probe during the initial zealot/stalker micro battles...it doesn't usually make a huge difference (although of course if I see him also doing a 1 gas 4gate, I usually try a bit harder to make sure I stay on track...but if I see something risky like 1gate or 2gate robo I usually can break it even if I mess up and my warps are like 15 sec late).
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[B] TLDR: you have no DPS to deny proxy pylon what so ever.
u dont need to deny the proxy.. its just a bonus if u succed in doing so. the whole point with the build is for you to fight off his first wave of warp ins without anything else backing them up.. which means u will lie 4 units ahead.
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On July 21 2011 12:35 Sogetsu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 08:36 Geiko wrote:It's actually a quite resilient build. If you look at the replays vs harstem (very high level master, his 4 gate beats grandmasters like mouzMana) you'll see that I held it off even though I was missmicroing a bit, and even forgot to warp in a gate way. As you said, stopping the 4 gate is easy, this build aims at stopping the 4 gate AND not sacrifing econ and tech to do so. 3 stalker rush is a good build. forge + 2 cannons + seems like it will die to either a pure blink build or a fast expansion uppon scouting the cannons. And yes I'm that guy, I get that alot (although I wasn't plat, just my terran was ~plat level). That thread got sooo many views ^^ Last week I played VTdesrow on the ladder and he asked me if i was THE geiko from the 3 rax build :p Ah Ok, I will review it. Anyways, the idea of the Cannons is a timing defense, not early, just in time, then your enemy could not scout them until he comes to rush The timing was something like 4:00 Minutes Forge starting, then you end with 2 Cannons exactly when 4 Gates is gonna hit you. Supporting the defense with 2 Gates + Robo/Twilight/Stargate , you can defend and Tech Anyways you need to constantly scout him to see how he reacts when the 4 Gates Fails , because like you said, if he decides to go Blink after the Fail Rush, or Expa inmediatly after failing, yo need to Expand or Tech ASAP to counter him I was really surprised when a GM give me that advice, but it works if you can scout the 4 Gates, negate your enemy' scout from minute 4 mark, and react properly when you see what is he gonna trying after the fail 4 Gate Rush (Expa or More Tech All In) PD: What level were you playing Protoss when doing the 3 Rax rank? And also, is it a good idea to rank fast without getting many skills? I am teaching some players and my friends told me "Teach them 4 Gates", but I do not want to do it untill they get at leas basci concepts in macro, and can reach a dcente Mid Game ( they'rereally low leagues)
I don't think this 2 cannon defense thing works. I just played someone who tried this and I still won easily with a 4 gate. This defense may hold off the initial 6 stalker + 1 zeal attack, but if you just wait for another round or 2 of units you easily roll him over. To stop a delayed 4 gate you need to keep investing in additional units/cannons, but you'll never know if he's opting to do a delayed 4 gate or if he's teching up instead (and if you keep focusing on units/cannons you'll be behind in tech if he does tech instead.)
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On July 26 2011 03:13 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 12:35 Sogetsu wrote:On July 21 2011 08:36 Geiko wrote:It's actually a quite resilient build. If you look at the replays vs harstem (very high level master, his 4 gate beats grandmasters like mouzMana) you'll see that I held it off even though I was missmicroing a bit, and even forgot to warp in a gate way. As you said, stopping the 4 gate is easy, this build aims at stopping the 4 gate AND not sacrifing econ and tech to do so. 3 stalker rush is a good build. forge + 2 cannons + seems like it will die to either a pure blink build or a fast expansion uppon scouting the cannons. And yes I'm that guy, I get that alot (although I wasn't plat, just my terran was ~plat level). That thread got sooo many views ^^ Last week I played VTdesrow on the ladder and he asked me if i was THE geiko from the 3 rax build :p Ah Ok, I will review it. Anyways, the idea of the Cannons is a timing defense, not early, just in time, then your enemy could not scout them until he comes to rush The timing was something like 4:00 Minutes Forge starting, then you end with 2 Cannons exactly when 4 Gates is gonna hit you. Supporting the defense with 2 Gates + Robo/Twilight/Stargate , you can defend and Tech Anyways you need to constantly scout him to see how he reacts when the 4 Gates Fails , because like you said, if he decides to go Blink after the Fail Rush, or Expa inmediatly after failing, yo need to Expand or Tech ASAP to counter him I was really surprised when a GM give me that advice, but it works if you can scout the 4 Gates, negate your enemy' scout from minute 4 mark, and react properly when you see what is he gonna trying after the fail 4 Gate Rush (Expa or More Tech All In) PD: What level were you playing Protoss when doing the 3 Rax rank? And also, is it a good idea to rank fast without getting many skills? I am teaching some players and my friends told me "Teach them 4 Gates", but I do not want to do it untill they get at leas basci concepts in macro, and can reach a dcente Mid Game ( they'rereally low leagues) I don't think this 2 cannon defense thing works. I just played someone who tried this and I still won easily with a 4 gate. This defense may hold off the initial 6 stalker + 1 zeal attack, but if you just wait for another round or 2 of units you easily roll him over. To stop a delayed 4 gate you need to keep investing in additional units/cannons, but you'll never know if he's opting to do a delayed 4 gate or if he's teching up instead (and if you keep focusing on units/cannons you'll be behind in tech if he does tech instead.) Yeah I had someone do this to me last night. You just wait a couple rounds then poke and see if you can go up. If he keeps making a lot of units you can't go up the ramp, just like any other scenario. But if he tries to do something else there's a good chance he'll over-estimate the value of his cannons and just die. He also can't tell what you're up to, and if you do decide to just not engage the cannons, they are sunk resources for basically nothing.
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On July 26 2011 05:04 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 03:13 Anihc wrote:On July 21 2011 12:35 Sogetsu wrote:On July 21 2011 08:36 Geiko wrote:It's actually a quite resilient build. If you look at the replays vs harstem (very high level master, his 4 gate beats grandmasters like mouzMana) you'll see that I held it off even though I was missmicroing a bit, and even forgot to warp in a gate way. As you said, stopping the 4 gate is easy, this build aims at stopping the 4 gate AND not sacrifing econ and tech to do so. 3 stalker rush is a good build. forge + 2 cannons + seems like it will die to either a pure blink build or a fast expansion uppon scouting the cannons. And yes I'm that guy, I get that alot (although I wasn't plat, just my terran was ~plat level). That thread got sooo many views ^^ Last week I played VTdesrow on the ladder and he asked me if i was THE geiko from the 3 rax build :p Ah Ok, I will review it. Anyways, the idea of the Cannons is a timing defense, not early, just in time, then your enemy could not scout them until he comes to rush The timing was something like 4:00 Minutes Forge starting, then you end with 2 Cannons exactly when 4 Gates is gonna hit you. Supporting the defense with 2 Gates + Robo/Twilight/Stargate , you can defend and Tech Anyways you need to constantly scout him to see how he reacts when the 4 Gates Fails , because like you said, if he decides to go Blink after the Fail Rush, or Expa inmediatly after failing, yo need to Expand or Tech ASAP to counter him I was really surprised when a GM give me that advice, but it works if you can scout the 4 Gates, negate your enemy' scout from minute 4 mark, and react properly when you see what is he gonna trying after the fail 4 Gate Rush (Expa or More Tech All In) PD: What level were you playing Protoss when doing the 3 Rax rank? And also, is it a good idea to rank fast without getting many skills? I am teaching some players and my friends told me "Teach them 4 Gates", but I do not want to do it untill they get at leas basci concepts in macro, and can reach a dcente Mid Game ( they'rereally low leagues) I don't think this 2 cannon defense thing works. I just played someone who tried this and I still won easily with a 4 gate. This defense may hold off the initial 6 stalker + 1 zeal attack, but if you just wait for another round or 2 of units you easily roll him over. To stop a delayed 4 gate you need to keep investing in additional units/cannons, but you'll never know if he's opting to do a delayed 4 gate or if he's teching up instead (and if you keep focusing on units/cannons you'll be behind in tech if he does tech instead.) Yeah I had someone do this to me last night. You just wait a couple rounds they poke and see if you can go up. If he keeps making a lot of units you can't go up the ramp, just like any other scenario. But if he tries to do something else there's a good chance he'll over-estimate the value of his cannons and just die. He also can't tell what you're up to, and if you do decide to just not engage the cannons, they are sunk resources for basically nothing.
lol was it Vadar?
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On July 26 2011 05:06 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 05:04 CecilSunkure wrote:On July 26 2011 03:13 Anihc wrote:On July 21 2011 12:35 Sogetsu wrote:On July 21 2011 08:36 Geiko wrote:It's actually a quite resilient build. If you look at the replays vs harstem (very high level master, his 4 gate beats grandmasters like mouzMana) you'll see that I held it off even though I was missmicroing a bit, and even forgot to warp in a gate way. As you said, stopping the 4 gate is easy, this build aims at stopping the 4 gate AND not sacrifing econ and tech to do so. 3 stalker rush is a good build. forge + 2 cannons + seems like it will die to either a pure blink build or a fast expansion uppon scouting the cannons. And yes I'm that guy, I get that alot (although I wasn't plat, just my terran was ~plat level). That thread got sooo many views ^^ Last week I played VTdesrow on the ladder and he asked me if i was THE geiko from the 3 rax build :p Ah Ok, I will review it. Anyways, the idea of the Cannons is a timing defense, not early, just in time, then your enemy could not scout them until he comes to rush The timing was something like 4:00 Minutes Forge starting, then you end with 2 Cannons exactly when 4 Gates is gonna hit you. Supporting the defense with 2 Gates + Robo/Twilight/Stargate , you can defend and Tech Anyways you need to constantly scout him to see how he reacts when the 4 Gates Fails , because like you said, if he decides to go Blink after the Fail Rush, or Expa inmediatly after failing, yo need to Expand or Tech ASAP to counter him I was really surprised when a GM give me that advice, but it works if you can scout the 4 Gates, negate your enemy' scout from minute 4 mark, and react properly when you see what is he gonna trying after the fail 4 Gate Rush (Expa or More Tech All In) PD: What level were you playing Protoss when doing the 3 Rax rank? And also, is it a good idea to rank fast without getting many skills? I am teaching some players and my friends told me "Teach them 4 Gates", but I do not want to do it untill they get at leas basci concepts in macro, and can reach a dcente Mid Game ( they'rereally low leagues) I don't think this 2 cannon defense thing works. I just played someone who tried this and I still won easily with a 4 gate. This defense may hold off the initial 6 stalker + 1 zeal attack, but if you just wait for another round or 2 of units you easily roll him over. To stop a delayed 4 gate you need to keep investing in additional units/cannons, but you'll never know if he's opting to do a delayed 4 gate or if he's teching up instead (and if you keep focusing on units/cannons you'll be behind in tech if he does tech instead.) Yeah I had someone do this to me last night. You just wait a couple rounds they poke and see if you can go up. If he keeps making a lot of units you can't go up the ramp, just like any other scenario. But if he tries to do something else there's a good chance he'll over-estimate the value of his cannons and just die. He also can't tell what you're up to, and if you do decide to just not engage the cannons, they are sunk resources for basically nothing. lol was it Vadar? Maybe don't remember
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Can some one post a replay of how to deal with fast immortal? I keep getting crushed by fast immortal into mass colossus. I try using chargelots with archons but it doesn't do much against it.
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Thanks for posting this build. I have been having much success with it and have enjoyed PvP much more when the game can get past the 8 minute mark.
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Can anyone add on as how to play blink vs. robo? I usually win blink vs. blink (unless I'm greedy and lose to dts or something), but I lose nearly every blink vs. robo. I feel like every time I poke up his ramp he has zealot/a few stalker/an immo, and each poke trade benefits him (I should blink better?). And don' think I can just blink up and kill him. Then he just adds on immos before going collo and once the collo are out he just rolls me. I've done a few base trades but his army is just so much stronger it doesn't matter if I kill his base faster.
Archon/chargelot is a nice composition but it takes so long to get out unless you stop making units entirely.
Are you supposed to slowly wittle down his units by poking and perfect blinks and then go in for the kill?
Thanks, really clueless about this.
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Is it possible to sneak in a gas steal making it more probable that the opponent 4gates?
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Ok, I haven't been laddering much lately but I'll try to save my PvP vs fast robo builds since that's what you guys seem interested about. Do note that this should be another thread all together because it has nothing to do with the opener that you are choosing I'm looking forward to 4kmonk's guide on PvP mid game, he seems to know a bunch of PvP and expresses his thoughts very clearly. It should answer a lot of your questions as well.
If you want to gas steal, you need to do it right before you take your own gas (after the second gateway). However if you choose to do this, you'll only be truly safe vs 4 gate if you cut probes 21 and 22. This can put you behind if he is not 4 gating. But then it's all about mind games if he attakcs your assimilator fast or not etc... I only gas steal against players who go for chronoboosted stalker first and don't take their second gas super fast. (usually when the stalker is halfway done.)
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Didnt read much of the build, but PvP should be reactionary matchup. If you scout him not doing 4gate(2nd gas/3 chronoboosts on nexus/2gate opening) then you should play "greedy" and do 1gate tc/robo. If you see him not take 2nd gas, only 2 chronoboost used, then you should do 3gates and 2gases and you should defend 4gate with that. So i think the build should be used as 4gate counter, not a std opening always.
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On July 28 2011 23:23 Huntz wrote: Can anyone add on as how to play blink vs. robo? I usually win blink vs. blink (unless I'm greedy and lose to dts or something), but I lose nearly every blink vs. robo. I feel like every time I poke up his ramp he has zealot/a few stalker/an immo, and each poke trade benefits him (I should blink better?). And don' think I can just blink up and kill him. Then he just adds on immos before going collo and once the collo are out he just rolls me. I've done a few base trades but his army is just so much stronger it doesn't matter if I kill his base faster.
Archon/chargelot is a nice composition but it takes so long to get out unless you stop making units entirely.
Are you supposed to slowly wittle down his units by poking and perfect blinks and then go in for the kill?
Thanks, really clueless about this. If you scout robo and you've already put down the twilight council, you're actually in the best possible position imo. I go robo before twilight and I can still get chargelots+archons out in time, so if you're opening twilight first and you can't get that stuff out in time you're definitely doing something wrong. I'm not sure how it takes a long time to get; you already have the twilight council, right?
Firstly, in order to be safe vs blink the other guy needs to make 2 immortals before starting a colossus. If he hasn't, blink in and snipe the immortal and win the game. Secondly, you ought to scout his robo/an immortal/lots of zealots before your blink has finished (assuming you scout his tech at around 6 minutes. Personally I'd just cancel blink and go charge while putting down a templar archives immediately. A player going robo has little map control. He won't push out until he has at least 2 colossi. You absolutely should cut unit production if you have to, in order to tech and get more probes. It's safe to do so. You'll have charge finished and at least 1 archon by the time his push hits if he's 1-basing you. Make sure you engage in an open field where you can get a zealot surround.
If you scout robo so late that you're already committed to blink with a bunch of stalkers, I'd still go charge and archons and try to stall him with blink harassment, but if he commits to an attack early it might be difficult to win. Perhaps this is what's happening, in which case I suggest scouting earlier/better and going charge the instant you see robo play. I'm not a big fan of blindly going blink first for precisely this reason, it sets you behind against robo play. I'd say I only go blink if I've held off a 4-gate using Geiko's build, because their tech will be pretty darn late and blink ought to win the game there.
It would help if you post a replay, too.
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The thing is..., four gate will always be a prominent build and it could easily allow the aggressor to delay you from exiting your base until you get a Collosus...
That would then allow the opponent to be able to quickly expand get minimal saturation and build extra gateways or continue unit production and add tech buildings.
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On July 29 2011 04:02 kineSiS- wrote: The thing is..., four gate will always be a prominent build and it could easily allow the aggressor to delay you from exiting your base until you get a Collosus...
That would then allow the opponent to be able to quickly expand get minimal saturation and build extra gateways or continue unit production and add tech buildings. Such a bullshit, please leave these forums, you must be troll.
1. 4gater has less probes 2. You dont need to get colossus to leave your base, blink is enough and you should get it ~8:00 if you go 3gate TC 3. HOW THE HECK DOES HE CONTINUE UNIT PRODUCTION AND ADD TECH BUILDINGS WITH 20 PROBES AND CONSTANTLY MAKE UNITS? HE CANT 4. same for expanding, you just simply dont HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO BUILD DEFENSIVE UNITS TO PROTECT YOUR EXPANSION 5. You dont clearly have a clue about pvp.
Those are the reasons why failed 4gaters gg straight away or tries to do risky builds, BECAUSE THEY ARE BEHIND [I_would_so_much_like_to_insert_few_insults_here]
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If you scout robo and you've already put down the twilight council, you're actually in the best possible position imo. I go robo before twilight and I can still get chargelots+archons out in time, so if you're opening twilight first and you can't get that stuff out in time you're definitely doing something wrong. I'm not sure how it takes a long time to get; you already have the twilight council, right?
Firstly, in order to be safe vs blink the other guy needs to make 2 immortals before starting a colossus. If he hasn't, blink in and snipe the immortal and win the game. Secondly, you ought to scout his robo/an immortal/lots of zealots before your blink has finished (assuming you scout his tech at around 6 minutes. Personally I'd just cancel blink and go charge while putting down a templar archives immediately. A player going robo has little map control. He won't push out until he has at least 2 colossi. You absolutely should cut unit production if you have to, in order to tech and get more probes. It's safe to do so. You'll have charge finished and at least 1 archon by the time his push hits if he's 1-basing you. Make sure you engage in an open field where you can get a zealot surround.
If you scout robo so late that you're already committed to blink with a bunch of stalkers, I'd still go charge and archons and try to stall him with blink harassment, but if he commits to an attack early it might be difficult to win. Perhaps this is what's happening, in which case I suggest scouting earlier/better and going charge the instant you see robo play. I'm not a big fan of blindly going blink first for precisely this reason, it sets you behind against robo play. I'd say I only go blink if I've held off a 4-gate using Geiko's build, because their tech will be pretty darn late and blink ought to win the game there.
It would help if you post a replay, too.
Ah ok, I wasn't scouting soon enough. I reread the OP and realized that you can push with 6s/1z/1sentry, see a high stalker count and run before blink finishes and destroys you (right?). Previously I waited for blink to finish for this reason.
It was taking so long to go archon/charge because I was so locked into blink already.
As for a replay, that's really not relevant to this thread, and even if I was losing winnable games due to macro errors, I wouldn't be able to win with better macro because I had absolutely no idea what I was doing =/ Blink won't beat robo in a straight up battle after the collo are out.
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i <3 this build atm. i've been using it whether the enemy protoss looks like he's 4gating or not because it kinda deters 4gate push plus warp ins if they poke up and see units like this. they usually go for blink next in my experience tonight. i usually go blink too, but since mines done first i can poke and see whats up. this build > blink > forge/robo (or both) > charge > ht for archons and then get an attack and go has been amazing in diamond so far. i feel like im turtling and he's getting ahead, but after looking at replay you're like 20 food ahead. really fun opening build ^^
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United States8476 Posts
On July 29 2011 14:14 BoondockVeritas wrote: i <3 this build atm. i've been using it whether the enemy protoss looks like he's 4gating or not because it kinda deters 4gate push plus warp ins if they poke up and see units like this. they usually go for blink next in my experience tonight. i usually go blink too, but since mines done first i can poke and see whats up. this build > blink > forge/robo (or both) > charge > ht for archons and then get an attack and go has been amazing in diamond so far. i feel like im turtling and he's getting ahead, but after looking at replay you're like 20 food ahead. really fun opening build ^^
This can be more attributed to the fact that you're in diamond and you have an actual build rather than the fact that this build is some type of miracle.
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On July 28 2011 23:23 Huntz wrote: Can anyone add on as how to play blink vs. robo? I usually win blink vs. blink (unless I'm greedy and lose to dts or something), but I lose nearly every blink vs. robo. I feel like every time I poke up his ramp he has zealot/a few stalker/an immo, and each poke trade benefits him (I should blink better?). And don' think I can just blink up and kill him. Then he just adds on immos before going collo and once the collo are out he just rolls me. I've done a few base trades but his army is just so much stronger it doesn't matter if I kill his base faster.
Archon/chargelot is a nice composition but it takes so long to get out unless you stop making units entirely.
Are you supposed to slowly wittle down his units by poking and perfect blinks and then go in for the kill?
Thanks, really clueless about this.
MLG spoiler + Show Spoiler + Huk does a 3 gate blink stalker build which gets blink at about the same time as my build. naniwa gets a 1 gate robo opening with 2 chronoed immortal. You can see exactly how you are supposed to play blink vs robo in this match
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MLG spoiler
Link? Or where I can find this?
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On July 30 2011 10:09 Huntz wrote:Link? Or where I can find this?
They are being played right, now. I think they give out the replays at the end of the weekend.
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They are being played right, now. I think they give out the replays at the end of the weekend
Oh lol, not much of a spectator. Anywhere I can watch live for free, and where would replays be after release? thanks
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United States8476 Posts
On July 30 2011 10:02 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 23:23 Huntz wrote: Can anyone add on as how to play blink vs. robo? I usually win blink vs. blink (unless I'm greedy and lose to dts or something), but I lose nearly every blink vs. robo. I feel like every time I poke up his ramp he has zealot/a few stalker/an immo, and each poke trade benefits him (I should blink better?). And don' think I can just blink up and kill him. Then he just adds on immos before going collo and once the collo are out he just rolls me. I've done a few base trades but his army is just so much stronger it doesn't matter if I kill his base faster.
Archon/chargelot is a nice composition but it takes so long to get out unless you stop making units entirely.
Are you supposed to slowly wittle down his units by poking and perfect blinks and then go in for the kill?
Thanks, really clueless about this. MLG spoiler + Show Spoiler + Huk does a 3 gate blink stalker build which gets blink at about the same time as my build. naniwa gets a 1 gate robo opening with 2 chronoed immortal. You can see exactly how you are supposed to play blink vs robo in this match
+ Show Spoiler +I completely disagree with this. The only reason naniwa lost was that he made a wall and thus funneled his units and fully exposed his gateways. I used to exclusively do a defensive 3 gate with a wall, but I stopped for exactly this purpose: A blink stalker push or any push with an observer can easy either funnel your units and kill your walling gateways.
You cannot rely on killing your opponent with a blink up to his ramp or picking off units. This can work if your opponent is super greedy, but you shouldn't depend on it to win.
I'll have more answers about robo blink vs blink vs robo in my upcoming guide, but here's the short answer on how to play blink vs robo:
Expand. The bigger the map the better. Your opponent can do one of a few things. He expands: You harrass him and have better econ. He goes collosi allin: Base trade with him. He goes immortal push: Base trade with him. He goes immortal blink stalker: You have 2 options: 1. Delay his push with a superior blink stalker count while you wait for your econ to kick in. 2. Make a mix of sentry/zealot/immortal and use forces fields to hold him off.
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On July 30 2011 10:15 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 10:02 Geiko wrote:On July 28 2011 23:23 Huntz wrote: Can anyone add on as how to play blink vs. robo? I usually win blink vs. blink (unless I'm greedy and lose to dts or something), but I lose nearly every blink vs. robo. I feel like every time I poke up his ramp he has zealot/a few stalker/an immo, and each poke trade benefits him (I should blink better?). And don' think I can just blink up and kill him. Then he just adds on immos before going collo and once the collo are out he just rolls me. I've done a few base trades but his army is just so much stronger it doesn't matter if I kill his base faster.
Archon/chargelot is a nice composition but it takes so long to get out unless you stop making units entirely.
Are you supposed to slowly wittle down his units by poking and perfect blinks and then go in for the kill?
Thanks, really clueless about this. MLG spoiler + Show Spoiler + Huk does a 3 gate blink stalker build which gets blink at about the same time as my build. naniwa gets a 1 gate robo opening with 2 chronoed immortal. You can see exactly how you are supposed to play blink vs robo in this match
I completely disagree with this. ...
Spoiler your posts ^^
+ Show Spoiler + Naniwa would have lost with 2 more units anyways. Also Huk Miss microed his first wave of units and still rolled the immortal army afterwards. I'm really not a fan of 1 gate robo builds vs blink play. But you are right that walling off vs protoss isn't the best idea when you're not facing 4 gate.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 30 2011 10:22 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 10:15 4kmonk wrote:On July 30 2011 10:02 Geiko wrote:On July 28 2011 23:23 Huntz wrote: Can anyone add on as how to play blink vs. robo? I usually win blink vs. blink (unless I'm greedy and lose to dts or something), but I lose nearly every blink vs. robo. I feel like every time I poke up his ramp he has zealot/a few stalker/an immo, and each poke trade benefits him (I should blink better?). And don' think I can just blink up and kill him. Then he just adds on immos before going collo and once the collo are out he just rolls me. I've done a few base trades but his army is just so much stronger it doesn't matter if I kill his base faster.
Archon/chargelot is a nice composition but it takes so long to get out unless you stop making units entirely.
Are you supposed to slowly wittle down his units by poking and perfect blinks and then go in for the kill?
Thanks, really clueless about this. MLG spoiler + Show Spoiler + Huk does a 3 gate blink stalker build which gets blink at about the same time as my build. naniwa gets a 1 gate robo opening with 2 chronoed immortal. You can see exactly how you are supposed to play blink vs robo in this match
I completely disagree with this. ... Spoiler your posts ^^ + Show Spoiler + Naniwa would have lost with 2 more units anyways. Also Huk Miss microed his first wave of units and still rolled the immortal army afterwards. I'm really not a fan of 1 gate robo builds vs blink play. But you are right that walling off vs protoss isn't the best idea when you're not facing 4 gate.
My bad about the spoilers. + Show Spoiler +I'd have to watch the game again to be sure, but I'm fairly certain that at one point when naniwa had 2 immortals, he would have held indefinitely if it not for that wall. He might have beat naniwa before this point, but I don't know because I wasn't watching the first 15 seconds of the fight. The wall just forces you to either lose your gateways or funnel your units.
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On July 29 2011 18:12 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 14:14 BoondockVeritas wrote: i <3 this build atm. i've been using it whether the enemy protoss looks like he's 4gating or not because it kinda deters 4gate push plus warp ins if they poke up and see units like this. they usually go for blink next in my experience tonight. i usually go blink too, but since mines done first i can poke and see whats up. this build > blink > forge/robo (or both) > charge > ht for archons and then get an attack and go has been amazing in diamond so far. i feel like im turtling and he's getting ahead, but after looking at replay you're like 20 food ahead. really fun opening build ^^
This can be more attributed to the fact that you're in diamond and you have an actual build rather than the fact that this build is some type of miracle.
idk if thats an insult or what. after playing more games with it i want to clarify that that is more of a plan more than a cut and paste constant build order up to 20 minutes or something. also i should note that the "plan" i mention is only good so long as you are being cost effective and microing properly and its 1 base vs 1 base. do not under any circumstance let it become your one vs their two base for any amount of time or you lose all your momentum. i'm diamond, but i'm not terrible as long as i play a macro game. i played grandmaster revpinky for 25 minutes before losing even though i'm diamond. in rush circumstances, i'm like silver league bad.
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On July 29 2011 18:12 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 14:14 BoondockVeritas wrote: i <3 this build atm. i've been using it whether the enemy protoss looks like he's 4gating or not because it kinda deters 4gate push plus warp ins if they poke up and see units like this. they usually go for blink next in my experience tonight. i usually go blink too, but since mines done first i can poke and see whats up. this build > blink > forge/robo (or both) > charge > ht for archons and then get an attack and go has been amazing in diamond so far. i feel like im turtling and he's getting ahead, but after looking at replay you're like 20 food ahead. really fun opening build ^^
This can be more attributed to the fact that you're in diamond and you have an actual build rather than the fact that this build is some type of miracle.
The barrier just keeps getting higher and higher, doesn't it? Back around december and earlier, there was this kind of talk about bronze/silver. Now even diamond players don't even have builds yet? Get real.
That aside, really useful guide, Geiko! Even though the build is capable of defending a proper 4gate, it still takes quite some micro and practice to be able to pull it off correctly. For players that have been trying to defend 4gate (prepatch) with builds like 3GR and 3stalker, this is probably already ingrained, though. In this light this still is a build that requires you to be a bit better than your opponent to use it, but not nearly to the extent that 3gate robo used to. Definitely my favorite way to play PvP atm.
The only map where the matchup is still kind of weird-ish is Altar LE, probably due to the possibility of late scout and the lack of a main ramp. I haven't really run into consistent problems yet, but it always feels a bit iffy trying to decide to do this build or not.
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United States8476 Posts
Not meant as an insult. I was commenting on the fact that he was 20 supply ahead without any engagements and at the same time using a non greedy build.
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You claim you have more units and erm ... he runs out of resources ? :s its actually possible to 4gate up to 23 probes , finishing warp gate transformation at 5:35 and have 1 zealot 2 stalkers out before warpgate transformation with or without double gas... so... erm ... its just micro heavy like every pvp , since there will be a 10 sec interval every 22 secs (since warpgate cd is 28 and warpins take 4 secs) that he has more units than you as long as you trade on equal grounds :::sss
just wondering because atleast i can execute it like that >:
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United States8476 Posts
On July 31 2011 23:01 terror-eu wrote: You claim you have more units and erm ... he runs out of resources ? :s its actually possible to 4gate up to 23 probes , finishing warp gate transformation at 5:35 and have 1 zealot 2 stalkers out before warpgate transformation with or without double gas... so... erm ... its just micro heavy like every pvp , since there will be a 10 sec interval every 22 secs (since warpgate cd is 28 and warpins take 4 secs) that he has more units than you as long as you trade on equal grounds :::sss
just wondering because atleast i can execute it like that >:
One forcefield is all you need to cut off his units in half and win the battle. He'll also be attacking onto high ground and won't be able to throw down a proxy pylon at the ramp.
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I'm not sure if this has been suggested yet, but stealing their second gas seems like a very good choice to force them into 4 gate. I'm sure a 75 mineral investment is manageable.
As for the build, it looks really cool and Solid, which my PvP was missing after the patch.
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4kmonk : another question... if he ffs... isnt it viable to put the zealots / zealot on hold position since you are at 6 stalkers at first warpin with 5:35 4gate , and possible 8-9 stalkers at the next warpin and putting the zealot on hold and concaving around the edges of the ramp to get the surface area...
so if it comes to that , is it def win for the defender or comes it down to intensive micro ?
if the 4gater does that... do you just select around 2 stalkers to target the zealot without giving surface area to the edges and just sit back chill and warpin sentries ?
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United States8476 Posts
On July 31 2011 23:37 terror-eu wrote: 4kmonk : another question... if he ffs... isnt it viable to put the zealots / zealot on hold position since you are at 6 stalkers at first warpin with 5:35 4gate , and possible 8-9 stalkers at the next warpin and putting the zealot on hold and concaving around the edges of the ramp to get the surface area...
so if it comes to that , is it def win for the defender or comes it down to intensive micro ?
if the 4gater does that... do you just select around 2 stalkers to target the zealot without giving surface area to the edges and just sit back chill and warpin sentries ?
Yes, you target the zealots with stalkers and he won't be able to attack your stalkers back.
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On July 31 2011 23:20 FiWiFaKi wrote: I'm not sure if this has been suggested yet, but stealing their second gas seems like a very good choice to force them into 4 gate. I'm sure a 75 mineral investment is manageable.
As for the build, it looks really cool and Solid, which my PvP was missing after the patch. I am also wondering if to gas steal, therefore forcing a 4 gate / delaying his tech is better because you no longer commit to cutting eco for units to stop the 4 gate which may or may not be coming if your scouted was limited and didn't gas steal? Also completely stop/delaying dark Templar which seems to be the biggest whole in the build due no detection that planned.
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I have few questions. Let me clear something:
If you don't steal his gas, and if he goes with 2 gases, I think the best idea is to instantly put your second gas, and while having 2 gates instantly put twilight council for fast blink, and after than 3rd gate + don't forget to mass probes to 20 on mineral(perfect saturation 2.5) + 6 on gas.
If he still goes for 4gate, than you do this build as normal, kill his pylon if possible near your ramp, so he can't warpin on high ground..
But here goes the question, is it possible to defeat 4 gate if he waits few seconds for another 1 or 2 round of units(since 4 gate outproduce 3gates). I had that game yesterday, do you just put one more gate or what do you do? council imediately after 3rd gate? robo?
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United States8476 Posts
On August 07 2011 07:04 whereismymind wrote: I have few questions. Let me clear something:
If you don't steal his gas, and if he goes with 2 gases, I think the best idea is to instantly put your second gas, and while having 2 gates instantly put twilight council for fast blink, and after than 3rd gate + don't forget to mass probes to 20 on mineral(perfect saturation 2.5) + 6 on gas.
If he still goes for 4gate, than you do this build as normal, kill his pylon if possible near your ramp, so he can't warpin on high ground..
But here goes the question, is it possible to defeat 4 gate if he waits few seconds for another 1 or 2 round of units(since 4 gate outproduce 3gates). I had that game yesterday, do you just put one more gate or what do you do? council imediately after 3rd gate? robo?
You just cut off his units as he's walking up your ramp. For example, if he has 6 stalkers and 5 zealots trying to get up your ramp, forcefield off 3 or 4 zealots and move back slightly so that only his zealots can fight your whole army while his stalkers can't do anything.
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On August 07 2011 07:04 whereismymind wrote: I have few questions. Let me clear something:
If you don't steal his gas, and if he goes with 2 gases, I think the best idea is to instantly put your second gas, and while having 2 gates instantly put twilight council for fast blink, and after than 3rd gate + don't forget to mass probes to 20 on mineral(perfect saturation 2.5) + 6 on gas.
If he still goes for 4gate, than you do this build as normal, kill his pylon if possible near your ramp, so he can't warpin on high ground..
But here goes the question, is it possible to defeat 4 gate if he waits few seconds for another 1 or 2 round of units(since 4 gate outproduce 3gates). I had that game yesterday, do you just put one more gate or what do you do? council imediately after 3rd gate? robo?
What 4kmonk said.
Regarding what you should do tech-wise, it all depends on how safe you want to be, and how good you are. If you are master level and know that you won't miss your FF, cutting off as many units as you want, then you can keep your tech building, get a few probes, make stalkers off of 3 gates and you'll be fine. This build crushes delayed 4 gates so you can easily probe up and tech up during the engagement. If you are not entirely confident on your ability to defend a 4 gate, then you can cut probes at 22, get an extra sentry out in case you miss a FF and cancel your tech building to pay for the first round of units. Don't get a 4th gate unless you're really really bad because that sort of defeats the purpose of this build ^^.
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Hey! I put up this build in Liquipedia for everyone to enjoy! If you don't want me copy/pasting your work over there (I credited you with creation), shoot me a PM! Hope you don't mind!
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I don't like this build. the gateway at 24 supply sends off alarms that you're using an anti 4 gate build. in general if i see fast 2nd gateway I hedge against the possibility of 4 gate pressure and invest more in tech.
also, you get zealot-->stalker-->sentry. i think a better order is zealot-->stalker-->stalker
i believe a fundamental need for defending 4 gate with less than 4 gates is having map control. fast 2nd stalker gives you map control and lets you see if your opponent is indeed 4 gating. if you only have one zealot one stalker one sentry you have less map control and won't be able to as easily confirm 4 gate
a common mistake I feel people make in PvP is that it's notjust about rock paper scissors build order losses, it's also about having a build that you adjust based on 1. your opponents opening bo (can he hard 4 gate or not?) as well as having map control during the phase when your scouting probe gets chased out and being able to confirm if he's 4 gating (adjust your BO to heavily invest in defense/chrono out units) and being able to see that he's not 4 gating and then adjusting your BO.
for ex if you get fast 2nd stalker you can use the map control you have to confirm if he's 4 gating. it gives you more options instead of BLINDLY committing to an anti 4 gate build that gets behind if your opponent plays greedy.
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On August 09 2011 10:56 foobahz wrote: I don't like this build. the gateway at 24 supply sends off alarms that you're using an anti 4 gate build. in general if i see fast 2nd gateway I hedge against the possibility of 4 gate pressure and invest more in tech.
also, you get zealot-->stalker-->sentry. i think a better order is zealot-->stalker-->stalker
i believe a fundamental need for defending 4 gate with less than 4 gates is having map control. fast 2nd stalker gives you map control and lets you see if your opponent is indeed 4 gating. if you only have one zealot one stalker one sentry you have less map control and won't be able to as easily confirm 4 gate
a common mistake I feel people make in PvP is that it's notjust about rock paper scissors build order losses, it's also about having a build that you adjust based on 1. your opponents opening bo (can he hard 4 gate or not?) as well as having map control during the phase when your scouting probe gets chased out and being able to confirm if he's 4 gating (adjust your BO to heavily invest in defense/chrono out units) and being able to see that he's not 4 gating and then adjusting your BO.
for ex if you get fast 2nd stalker you can use the map control you have to confirm if he's 4 gating. it gives you more options instead of BLINDLY committing to an anti 4 gate build that gets behind if your opponent plays greedy. Who is talking about blindly doing anything? You can use your first stalker to scout around and confirm if he's 4-gating. By the time you put down your second gateway and assimilator, you should have an idea whether the opponent is teching or 4-gating himself. If he put his 2nd gas down faster than yours, you'll have seen that with a scouting probe and you can match him and rush to tech yourself, cutting corners. This build essentially guarantees you'll have your 2nd gas as quickly or quicker than the opponent and you won't be behind. If his response to seeing you put down a 2nd gateway is to throw down his 2nd gas and tech, it's no problem, because your 2nd gas is going down at the same time as his.
The problems you speak about in PvP don't have anything to do with this build, it's with the players and how they approach the game.
With that said, when I think of "safe" PvP tech builds, I think of pretty much this one and 3-stalker build. 3-stalker relies a little bit on scouting luck to stop 4-gate, and it's MUCH more easily scouted much earlier compared to Geiko's build, but it gives you more map control and early pressure if you choose. Geiko's build, on the other hand, looks like a 4-gate for much longer, forcing the opponent to play safer, and it keeps you safe against 4-gate without relying on luck. But it doesn't give you as much map control early as 3-stalker opening. I don't think it makes this build bad; it's just a consequence that you have to deal with. Personally I sacrifice even more map control going robo (and council later), whereas the Blink followup gives you ALL the map control, it doesn't mean robo is inferior, it means there's more to the game than just map control.
Lastly, going zealot -> stalker -> stalker with this build doesn't make sense, it delays the gateways and you lose the sentry which is important to holding the 4-gate. I will do this if I scout something other than 4-gate and I want to save gas for my robo, but if you want to be safe (and need to be, based on what you scout) I think the build is just fine as it is.
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The answer is self-evident.
MORE SENTRY. Those win games.
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How does this build do if your opponent realise he can't kill you with his 4gate and back downs from the ramp and does a contain on you and keeps you in your main while he keep up with probe production and expands at the same time? What do you do from here to keep up? :O
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Russian Federation63 Posts
On August 11 2011 01:23 Termit wrote: How does this build do if your opponent realise he can't kill you with his 4gate and back downs from the ramp and does a contain on you and keeps you in your main while he keep up with probe production and expands at the same time? What do you do from here to keep up? :O You use your tech to kill him. Specifically, colossus tech allows for a decent timing push off 1 base. You can get it before he can start benefitting from his nexus.
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If my opponent goes dt, isnt he ahead because i waste so much time trying ot get a forge and robo up that it allows him to expand much earlier than i can.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 12 2011 12:40 DoctaD wrote: If my opponent goes dt, isnt he ahead because i waste so much time trying ot get a forge and robo up that it allows him to expand much earlier than i can.
You're more criticizing a blink stalker opening than the actual build. No one's forcing you to do a blink stalker followup. You can make a robo if you don't see a dedicated 4 gate coming instead of 3 additional stalkers.
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On August 09 2011 16:28 MechKingPrime wrote: The answer is self-evident.
MORE SENTRY. Those win games. no, more sentry is bad. you want to cut the army in half, then kill it. you cant rely on mass sentry, as you can warp over forcefields. you need to have 1 sentry, and as many stalker as possible, and a few zealot, cut his army in half, and kill it.
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Why do you cut probes at 24? Also, I feel like your tech doesn't have to be late compared to tech builds at all. When I do a 3gate much like yours, I skip the zealot, get an earlier second gas and block off the ramp with 2 gates (and a pylon when I think I'll be in need of it). I always defend easily against a 4gate using 2 sentries and stalkers whilst doing a 3gate robo/council build, without cutting probes (only when in dire need.) If I slightly mess up, I may just cancel tech, cut probes, get a 4th gate en get ready for a fight. I'm also mid-masters and I've yet to lose outright to a 4gate this way.
EDIT: I also gas steal whenever I can in which case I get tech slightly later to ensure I'll defend against his likely 4gate.
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if anyone wants to go online and practice this build against a 4gate im keen, im 750masters (NA or SEA)
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United States8476 Posts
On August 12 2011 15:54 L3g3nd_ wrote: if anyone wants to go online and practice this build against a 4gate im keen, im 750masters (NA or SEA)
Lol, it sounds like you're offering your services to 4 gate people.
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On August 12 2011 15:54 L3g3nd_ wrote: if anyone wants to go online and practice this build against a 4gate im keen, im 750masters (NA or SEA)
I would, but I'm on EU Do you still have doubts about its potential to hold 4 gate or do you wish to try something else ?
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I love you. I just smashed a 4gate with this- oh happy days.
(Took a LOOOONG break from laddering so... I just started using this now lol)
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I just smashed a 4gate and transitioned into blink... I really love blink it's great to use it in pvp as my micro is my strong point .
One fast question: When should you be looking at getting a robo? I'm traditionally a 4gater, so I'm quite clueless in terms of when to expand, when to get truesight, should we get an observer in order to harass effectively? ie. Observer up ledge, blink up snipe a building blink back down against say a robo build. Should we get a robo if we feel it's safe? If the other player transitions into blink micro what are some things you can do to beat him. Once again, grab a robo and go into immortal play?
Thanks if you can answer these questions it would be great, but at the moment I'm just really glad I've finally found a way to beat a 4gate.
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On August 16 2011 02:13 pezzaperry wrote:I just smashed a 4gate and transitioned into blink... I really love blink it's great to use it in pvp as my micro is my strong point . One fast question: When should you be looking at getting a robo? I'm traditionally a 4gater, so I'm quite clueless in terms of when to expand, when to get truesight, should we get an observer in order to harass effectively? ie. Observer up ledge, blink up snipe a building blink back down against say a robo build. Should we get a robo if we feel it's safe? If the other player transitions into blink micro what are some things you can do to beat him. Once again, grab a robo and go into immortal play? Thanks if you can answer these questions it would be great, but at the moment I'm just really glad I've finally found a way to beat a 4gate.
Nothing more satisfying than to beat a 4 gate
Unfortunately, your questions are out of the scope of this thread, I can direct you to these threads on how to play the mid game :
Robo Twilight PvP Twilight council PvP
In fact I'll add these to the OP.
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That's a cool build, thanks for it. However I just noticed one thing in your guide, you mention that if your opponent goes robo you just poke at his natural while you expand while threatening for a base trade. I don't think it'd work that easily, as I've been playing for a while from the other end and usually win in this case.
More specifically, my standard build in PvP is the infamous 3-stalkers rush. I then transition into a 2-gate robo, a third gate and a fast immortal. Against blink I'm forced into a defensive position at the beginning, however after I get 1-2 immortals I'll immediately drop my own twilight and tech blink. Once I have immortals and blink stalkers, I'll do a strong push, and if you did expo, you will lose. If you attempt a base trade for some reason, I have a higher dps and will most likely win it.
Still an interesting build, I'll give it a try especially if there are hints of a 4-gate.
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Italy12246 Posts
On August 16 2011 20:47 Nyast wrote: That's a cool build, thanks for it. However I just noticed one thing in your guide, you mention that if your opponent goes robo you just poke at his natural while you expand while threatening for a base trade. I don't think it'd work that easily, as I've been playing for a while from the other end and usually win in this case.
More specifically, my standard build in PvP is the infamous 3-stalkers rush. I then transition into a 2-gate robo, a third gate and a fast immortal. Against blink I'm forced into a defensive position at the beginning, however after I get 1-2 immortals I'll immediately drop my own twilight and tech blink. Once I have immortals and blink stalkers, I'll do a strong push, and if you did expo, you will lose. If you attempt a base trade for some reason, I have a higher dps and will most likely win it.
Still an interesting build, I'll give it a try especially if there are hints of a 4-gate.
The base trade is the reaction to a 1base colossus push. Vs blink/immortal people often get charge; there's plenty of good info on here about that http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249638
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Hello Geiko! Your opening is amazing against what it is designed for, and even without perfect execution it works great!
I'm just curious, with the recently released Patch 1.4.0 PTR notes stating that Blink research time is increased from 110 to 140, should this change go through, would you still opt to go blink stalkers or prefer something else?
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Cool! Thanks! I'm gonna try that out
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On August 25 2011 13:12 Brainless Mike wrote:Hello Geiko! Your opening is amazing against what it is designed for, and even without perfect execution it works great! I'm just curious, with the recently released Patch 1.4.0 PTR notes stating that Blink research time is increased from 110 to 140, should this change go through, would you still opt to go blink stalkers or prefer something else?
Yeah these patch notes seem like they are pretty bad for PvP diversity. I don't want to react too quickly but it seems like pure blink builds will have an even harder time vs robo builds. I think robo then twilight will become even more standard than it is right now.
I would probably go robo before 4th pylon with my build from then on.
Other then that, awesome patch notes
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On August 25 2011 18:13 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:12 Brainless Mike wrote:Hello Geiko! Your opening is amazing against what it is designed for, and even without perfect execution it works great! I'm just curious, with the recently released Patch 1.4.0 PTR notes stating that Blink research time is increased from 110 to 140, should this change go through, would you still opt to go blink stalkers or prefer something else? Yeah these patch notes seem like they are pretty bad for PvP diversity. I don't want to react too quickly but it seems like pure blink builds will have an even harder time vs robo builds. I think robo then twilight will become even more standard than it is right now. I would probably go robo before 4th pylon with my build from then on. Other then that, awesome patch notes
Personally, I expect a lot more one gate robo 3 gate compared to 3 gate robo now....you can do this now already if there isn't a hard 4 gate and immortals will be a good thing to have in the future.
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Awesome build, thanks a lot! This is forcing me to finally learn how to play PvP after the 8 minute mark.
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You just saved my PvP. Pretty much winning against almost any build.
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Its ultra effective if you steal his gas and force him to 4 gate
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I've played eight games of PvP straight on the ladder and I have tried the same blink stalker build across each. I lost all eight.
The blink research nerf hurts alot even if you chronoboost it 100% of the time. I don't feel safe against a four gate at all. By the time blink research is done your opponent is already warping his 1st round of units inside your base. I think I have to put a two more sentries in there even though I feel I am way behind if I even add on one sentry.
Against gate/robo builds I got destroyed. If they hit the money forcefield (which isn't that hard) you have no chance of just barraging their ramp and blinking in. They can FF you out until they have 1-2 immortals at which point fighting head-on (as I have experienced) becomes very difficult. This used to be manageable before they nerfed unit vision up ramps and increased immortal range but I feel it's alot harder now with these changes.
In hindsight I feel the correct response here would of been to take an expo behind the pressure and move to archons and speed zealots.
Edit: I'm sorry. This post is very out of context.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 26 2011 14:03 JASONB0URNE wrote: I've played eight games of PvP straight on the ladder and I have tried the same blink stalker build across each. I lost all eight.
The blink research nerf hurts alot even if you chronoboost it 100% of the time. I don't feel safe against a four gate at all. By the time blink research is done your opponent is already warping his 1st round of units inside your base. I think I have to put a two more sentries in there even though I feel I am way behind if I even add on one sentry.
Against gate/robo builds I got destroyed. If they hit the money forcefield (which isn't that hard) you have no chance of just barraging their ramp and blinking in. They can FF you out until they have 1-2 immortals at which point fighting head-on (as I have experienced) becomes very difficult. This used to be manageable before they nerfed unit vision up ramps and increased immortal range but I feel it's alot harder now with these changes.
In hindsight I feel the correct response here would of been to take an expo behind the pressure and move to archons and speed zealots.
I don't see why this belongs in this thread. If you follow this guide, you should be able to stop 4 gates.
Yes, offensive blink builds got much weaker because of the patch, so try your luck with expansion based blink builds.
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anyone using this as a pvp build???
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On October 20 2011 12:41 Catchafire2000 wrote: anyone using this as a pvp build??? I'm sure someone is using it... -.-
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I'm working on an update to this after patch 1.4. 6stalkers 1 zealot 1 sentry is a bit overkill to stop 4 gate with the ramp change it would seem.
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I'm looking forward to an update for this, and how it transitions to builds post patch 1.4
Sad I stopped doing this build because it gave me some structure in pre 1.4 pvp matches.
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