[D] Goody's Mech TvZ - Page 2
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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pwadoc
271 Posts
On July 15 2011 14:59 Whitewing wrote: The best part about Goody's mech play is that his macro is awful, an his multi-tasking sucks (he said in an interview that he can't play bio because he doesn't have the multi-tasking for it), yet he still kicks ass and wins big games vs. great players. Why exactly is that a good thing? | ||
Jesushooves
Canada553 Posts
Probably to do with the fact that game sense is much more important with mech, knowing when to push and when to turtle can easily make the difference between winning and losing. With respect to the tsl games, the first game goody turtles then dies to broodlords, the next two he allins and crushes an unsuspecting nestea. The third game is the best but none are really the "new" mech style that is becoming much more popular in tvz (watch gsl or beastyqt or almost any terran to see what I mean). Going pure mech relies on harassment with hellions, if you can't kill drones or force your opponent to stop droning, your opponent will be maxed and will crush you with muta/roach before you are maxed. As zerg you have to ensure harassment doesn't do too much damage and make sure your unit comp can trade cost effectively or near cost effectively with your opponent. Make too many mutas and die to pure thor, make lings and roaches and die to tanks and hellions, etc. The same sort of thinking about unit comp is important for terrans as well; even though you will only be making 3 factory units for most of the game, making too many of each can mean win or loss. | ||
sick_transit
United States195 Posts
On July 15 2011 15:24 Jesushooves wrote: Probably to do with the fact that game sense is much more important with mech, knowing when to push and when to turtle can easily make the difference between winning and losing. With respect to the tsl games, the first game goody turtles then dies to broodlords, the next two he allins and crushes an unsuspecting nestea. The third game is the best but none are really the "new" mech style that is becoming much more popular in tvz (watch gsl or beastyqt or almost any terran to see what I mean). Going pure mech relies on harassment with hellions, if you can't kill drones or force your opponent to stop droning, your opponent will be maxed and will crush you with muta/roach before you are maxed. As zerg you have to ensure harassment doesn't do too much damage and make sure your unit comp can trade cost effectively or near cost effectively with your opponent. Make too many mutas and die to pure thor, make lings and roaches and die to tanks and hellions, etc. The same sort of thinking about unit comp is important for terrans as well; even though you will only be making 3 factory units for most of the game, making too many of each can mean win or loss. Right--in the TSL games he is not actually doing this build. The hallmark of this build is swapping the factory onto the tech lab built on the wall-in barracks. This allows him to start BF upgrade at the earliest possible moment. The heavy BF harassment is a key element of this build. Nevertheless the TSL games are indeed epic and I'm glad someone posted them into the thread. | ||
Tppz!
Germany1449 Posts
On July 15 2011 08:38 pwadoc wrote: I've been watching a lot of good's TvZ lately, and I'm not convinced that his victories are a result of skill as much as zerg players responding badly to an unusual style. His trick seems to be overcommitting to harass, so that he hits the zerg with waves of bf hellions long after most terrans would have switched to tank/marine. In the current metagame, z is scared of a midgame push. Midgame harass with a powerful lategame mech push is unexpected, but once the metagame shifts and goody isn't able to kill huge numbers of drones with bf hellion harass in every game, his style is going to fall apart. I really dislike your post beacuse its too mcuh theorycrafting. 1) Mech really relies on mech. I agree. There is nothing bad about this, its just the way it works. 2) You think Zergplayers dont scout at all or react to the playstyle. I cant imagine a proplayer who does not build enough stuff in the right time when the slow Mech army moves out. A lot of people know GoOdys style because he only varies the most at the early game. But you just say people arent able to defend midgame harass? Or even a Lategame Push? You must be kidding O.o 3) If the harassment doesnt pay off - he looses. Well, if you read this you have to think: "Yeah thats the most normal thing in the world". You cant be serious on any of your points On July 15 2011 12:38 Belial88 wrote: It only takes 6 magic boxed mutas to beat a thor! Expand like crazy, get hive tech going on your third, and take a super fast fourth. Add a few infestors in your army - just a few, and rush to broodlords. Normally, rushing to BL's is almost impossible, and even if you get them out, vikings or super high thor counts ruin them. By using mutas to harass the opponent and force missile turrets, that means you can take more bases and hold off his mid-game mech army until broodlords pop. I know a lot of zerg like roaches against this style, but I think that's really stupid. Siege tanks own roaches, thors own roaches. Nestea added a few into his army against Goody on the game he won, but he also did that in the games he lost. And he probably fared so well because he had so many lings, instead of just pure roach like many players try to do, and fail, against mech style. Expand like crazy - loose every drone to harass. Thats how your playstyle looks to me. If you spread out that fast you dont have a lot of defense. A good Meching Terran will take this oopurtunity and just go and kill you while harassing every base with 2-x BF Hellions. So you think Ling, Baneling, Muta ist a lot better than Roach Infestor against this, cause Roaches and Infestors arent that good against Taks and Thors. Here is the thing: Ling/Bling/Muta are terrible against BF Hellions, Tanks and Thors. If you watch someone go for this strategy against Mech he always gets roflstomped like hell. Tanks+BF Hellions are incredible against Lings/Blings. Blings just dont do damage at alle in these fights. U play Blings to kill of the Antiair and clean up with Mutas in normal Marine/Tank style You cant try to kill Thors with Blings. Its just super inneffective. Thor obliterate Mutas (Upgrade advantage, spread out, maybe a Raven with PDD) Magicboxing isnt that supereffective if the Thors dont clump up. On July 15 2011 13:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Sure, there are more biomech builds like the one MMA used against Losira on Shattered in MLG finals, and the biomech build Boxer used against Idra in the very last set of NASL group stages and recently in the geforce tourny against Xlord, where they open with bio harass (reaper expand or 2 rax respectively) into BF hellion into thors and tanks and medivacs (and marines the whole time). They use the mainly Thor/Tank like mech, for position, while dropping marines all over. Pretty effective, and in many ways better than Hellions, though it is a little harder of course just because you have more kinds of units to control ^_^ (They both get double bio upgrades and mech attack) Getting both Bio and Mech upgrades just slows down your push and makes the game a lot less easy for you. Sure MassMutaslisks arent a great deal if you do this, but Ling/Bling Infestor/x will be a lot more stronger against this style. You have no real meatshield, less splashdamage, you have to dump your gas into Medivacs, Upgrades etc and BF Hellions are a lot better at harassing, because it just gives your opponent a lot less time to react AND he cant really use Lings against it which means that he needs a lot more time to react/ a lot of Spinecrawlers. I dont see why this should be stronger at all. On July 15 2011 14:59 Whitewing wrote: The best part about Goody's mech play is that his macro is awful, an his multi-tasking sucks (he said in an interview that he can't play bio because he doesn't have the multi-tasking for it), yet he still kicks ass and wins big games vs. great players. I cant imagine he said this. He does play Bio from time to time and if he couldnt play Mech he would go back to play Protoss. And he played some Protoss in some tournaments for fun and won against good players. Saying that he sucks that hard at mechnics would just implement he cant be good at all at anything else then MechTerran. But GoOdy is giving a very good fight while playing Protoss to top tier players in EU (BratOK, Sjow etc). Its just his preference to roll tanks around and stomp a lot of toptier players. He is a beast in TvT and TvZ - TvP aint good at all for Mech since Protoss has a s***load of counterunits. And I dont think any1 would prefer playing PvP at high level instead of TvP Mech ^.^ | ||
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Mutas aren't bad against thors - 24 mutas owns 6 thors pretty hard magic boxed. I think over half survive. Generally you don't have to make any banelings, and just go ling/bane until you can get broodlord/infestor/muta up. With mutas you prevent the terran from getting that critical 2 base army that will kill you if you try to go broodlords or hive tech, and will kill you because your lack of it. If you aren't going to harass with mutas, harass with something, but I don't see how else you can harass against it. Terran will be forced to play 3 base in this situation, which allows you to get broodlords and have the macro advantage. Siege tanks are the biggest problem, and roaches are just too supply inefficient and infestors can't handle them either. Also with infestors to FG hellions, lings will tear through the army. | ||
Tppz!
Germany1449 Posts
On July 15 2011 20:42 Belial88 wrote: ^ with mutalisks you shut down harass pretty quickly. Mutas aren't bad against thors - 24 mutas owns 6 thors pretty hard magic boxed. I think over half survive. Generally you don't have to make any banelings, and just go ling/bane until you can get broodlord/infestor/muta up. With mutas you prevent the terran from getting that critical 2 base army that will kill you if you try to go broodlords or hive tech, and will kill you because your lack of it. If you aren't going to harass with mutas, harass with something, but I don't see how else you can harass against it. Terran will be forced to play 3 base in this situation, which allows you to get broodlords and have the macro advantage. Siege tanks are the biggest problem, and roaches are just too supply inefficient and infestors can't handle them either. Also with infestors to FG hellions, lings will tear through the army. Yes Mutas are good at shutting down Harassment. But still arent Thors that bad against Mutalisks. If they magicbox you have to hit & run with the thors so the mutas have to reposition -> AoE -> Raining Blood ^.^ Though 24 Mutalisks are 2400 Gas and 6 Thors are 1200 Gas. So you have to build some more Thors if your Opponent goes Muta heavy. And you always bring some SCVs with your attack. This + Upgrade seal the deal. And you cant rely on FG all your opponents Hellions. Especially if youre Opponent goes LingBling/Muta you Run some Hellions behind the Tankline. | ||
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I think the right response to someone making lots of mutas is to add marines, since magic boxing marines is horrid results for zerg. come to think of it, rine/tank is just a lot better... I just think a lot of zerg don't know how to handle mech, and that mech has some very interesting timings that really abuse zerg, even one that is well prepared. A 2 base mech push needs broodlords, and it's kind of hard to do that, that in early in the game. I feel it's the other way around - Zerg needs to harass Terran or it's unstoppable. nd you cant rely on FG all your opponents Hellions. Especially if youre Opponent goes LingBling/Muta you Run some Hellions behind the Tankline. I don't think hellions are that problematic against mass ling with a surround instead of a-move. You say behind the tank line, well that's just it - the tanks are the real threat, just in any ZvT, not the hellions. In which case you need broodlords, and until then FG + lings or mutas can work. It's all very timing based, but if Zerg can get a 4 base army going, they will beat it. | ||
Intricate1
169 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
Imres
515 Posts
On July 15 2011 22:33 Intricate1 wrote: I'm going to hijack your thread for just a second here - If you play Starcraft 2 competitively and you don't use Sc2gears, Your simply At a disadvantage. Sc2gears 7.0: Plugin interface, Chat stats + more http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124689 To everyone theorycrafting in this thread, these may help you. mouzThorzain imbaStrelok vileHashe VtAvilo Fargo FnaticFenix LiquidTLO Gretorp ReqRookie and gglastshadow All use Mech TvZ BF Hellion Open Into Tank/Thor http://drop.sc/12147 http://drop.sc/19528 http://drop.sc/16862 http://drop.sc/19518 http://drop.sc/19519 http://drop.sc/19523 http://drop.sc/19527 http://drop.sc/19525 http://drop.sc/12147 http://drop.sc/19524 mouzThorZaIN vs July on ESL Shakuras Plateau gtfo with your ad. And this thread was about a reaper into bfh if you didn't notice, something that I'm not sure an other pro than GoOdy does. | ||
Linwelin
Ireland7554 Posts
Jokes aside, Goody is certainly not the only one using mech against Zerg and I don't really think he's the best one using mech either even if that's only what he does | ||
Intricate1
169 Posts
and your wrong on your 2nd point aswell, check the VileHashe on XC replay and The imbastrelok replay on Tal'darim. both open with multiple reaper harass and I know that for sure ...... ..... want to know how I know? loaded the previous list of TvZ BF into tank thor and just went a little deeper. so much for what you are or are not sure of | ||
Imres
515 Posts
On July 15 2011 23:23 Intricate1 wrote: its not a damn ad, its legit advice and your wrong on your 2nd point aswell, check the VileHashe on XC replay and The imbastrelok replay on Tal'darim. both open with multiple reaper harass and I know that for sure ...... ..... want to know how I know? loaded the previous list of TvZ BF into tank thor and just went a little deeper. so much for what you are or are not sure of It's an ad, you said yourself that you hijacked the thread. And i doubt that the top 1000 kor use your tool, hence they're at a disavantage tho ? | ||
Intricate1
169 Posts
The entire discussion was theorizing different versions of TvZ Mech play, with everyone coming to different conclusions and no one providing a shred of actual gameplay to backup their thoughts. I was interested in TvZ mechplay so I ran a search through my gears database and shared the replays. If people want to dig into the different versions of whats possible they can now. | ||
ilovelings
Argentina776 Posts
On July 15 2011 23:40 Intricate1 wrote: Go back and read the last 10 posts before my "ad" The entire discussion was theorizing different versions of TvZ Mech play, with everyone coming to different conclusions and no one providing a shred of actual gameplay to backup their thoughts. I was interested in TvZ mechplay so I ran a search through my gears database and shared the replays. If people want to dig into the different versions of whats possible they can now. We are not discussing Mech play. We are discussing Goody's mech play. | ||
sick_transit
United States195 Posts
The game vs. Nestea on Shakuras I think illustrates the value of the fast BFH harass--by its absence. Nestea expands all over the map and techs to broodlords which proves to be the answer to a big mech push by GoOdy at around the same time. | ||
Norseman
United States223 Posts
On to my point. I've been studying a lot of GoOdy's games lately and trying to unlock the key of what makes him so successful. I think it's been brushed upon but not fully mentioned yet, but the secret to his success is how well thought out and executed his RESPONSES are. I watched that game vs. Idra where the mutas came in and he had no turrets up. As a Terran myself, when I find myself in that position it's usually a quick spiral into a gg from me. However GoOdy's reaction was smooth, he started some turrets, and he put his Thors in perfect position to chase away the attack. This may not be the best of examples, but my point is it's not that GoOdy uses mech well, or that his build orders are the secret, it's that he understands the roles of each unit very well, he knows the exact measures he needs to take to counter things, and he has amazing game sense. I'm hoping as I learn more from watching his games that a little of that will rub off on me. But in my opinion right now there is no Terran that plays a more exciting game, and no Terran I would rather watch replays of than that of the Panzer General. He's taken mech to a new level. | ||
Intricate1
169 Posts
On July 16 2011 00:08 ilovelings wrote: We are not discussing Mech play. We are discussing Goody's mech play. .... whatever you gotta tell yourself ESCGoOdy vs AiOsho on ESL Tal'darim Altar LE a couple of the replays in question, both open Reaper harass into blueflame then tanks then thors with Infernal Pre-Igniter, the first tank , the first hellion and first thor all hitting within 1minute of the goody replay above. xNJakeBake vs vileHasHe on Xel'Naga Caverns imbaStrelok vs CNǃMoMaN on GSTL GSL Tal'Darim Altar close enough? The other replays which I provided before are variations of the build, which by understanding (Pay attention now this is where it gets tricky) allows you to employ whatever stlye of TvZ mech play you want to currently label "Goody mech play" Better. | ||
Norseman
United States223 Posts
On July 15 2011 23:40 Intricate1 wrote: The other replays which I provided before are variations of the build, which by understanding (Pay attention now this is where it gets tricky) allows you to employ whatever stlye of TvZ mech play you want to currently label "Goody mech play" Better. Unnecessary, dude. Why all the hate? Someone found a style of play they like, or a player the think is fascinating, and you have to cloud the thread with this? Your contirubutions are helpful, your delivery less so. Try not to take things so seriously, man. This is all about a game we all play to have fun. Why not lighten up a bit. That said: Thanks for the replays. I know I personally will be taking a look at them when I get home from work. I appreciate it. | ||
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10043 Posts
Getting both Bio and Mech upgrades just slows down your push and makes the game a lot less easy for you. Sure MassMutaslisks arent a great deal if you do this, but Ling/Bling Infestor/x will be a lot more stronger against this style. You have no real meatshield, less splashdamage, you have to dump your gas into Medivacs, Upgrades etc and BF Hellions are a lot better at harassing, because it just gives your opponent a lot less time to react AND he cant really use Lings against it which means that he needs a lot more time to react/ a lot of Spinecrawlers. I dont see why this should be stronger at all. You won't have a shortage of either minerals or gas because marines and hellions are both a good mineral sink. You have thors to be your meet shield. I do not see how a ling bling infestor army can do well whenever there are tanks and hellions (or in this case, tanks and most likely marine/medivac doing splits). You can always outrange the infestors with your tanks, and also target key groups of banelings. Well dropping marines can let you snipe hatches and tech, which hellions can't. You can't use lings against marines either, you can just pick up again. Hellions runbys can kill a lot of drones, but with medivacs you can save your marines and just keep your opponent scared. | ||
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