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Goody does the initial harass better than others and thats why imo he makes an inferior unit composition work. I played against him once, I was expecting reaper into banshee, he did exactly that and I still lost to it. I think what you can really get from his play is the way he controls his first units. E.g. against me he ran around with reapers taking as many hit on the hatch as he could, so that he could fly in with 2 banshees and finish it later.
Mech itself is not that strong. Contrary to the common mantra i found the best way to deal with it is expanding slowly, spine up everywhere and mass up infestors with roach/hydra support. the hydras are actually pretty important.
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On July 16 2011 02:36 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +Getting both Bio and Mech upgrades just slows down your push and makes the game a lot less easy for you. Sure MassMutaslisks arent a great deal if you do this, but Ling/Bling Infestor/x will be a lot more stronger against this style. You have no real meatshield, less splashdamage, you have to dump your gas into Medivacs, Upgrades etc and BF Hellions are a lot better at harassing, because it just gives your opponent a lot less time to react AND he cant really use Lings against it which means that he needs a lot more time to react/ a lot of Spinecrawlers. I dont see why this should be stronger at all.
You won't have a shortage of either minerals or gas because marines and hellions are both a good mineral sink. You have thors to be your meet shield. I do not see how a ling bling infestor army can do well whenever there are tanks and hellions (or in this case, tanks and most likely marine/medivac doing splits). You can always outrange the infestors with your tanks, and also target key groups of banelings. Well dropping marines can let you snipe hatches and tech, which hellions can't. You can't use lings against marines either, you can just pick up again. Hellions runbys can kill a lot of drones, but with medivacs you can save your marines and just keep your opponent scared.
Nothing you said is wrong, and in the end it comes down to personal preference. I prefer hellions to protect my Thors from lings. I think they do a better job then marines, are less hurt by fungals, and can be repaired by the SCVs I already have with my mech ball. If I went marines I need to waste gas on medivacs, whereas the SCVs repairing the hellions save me gas, which leaves more gas for the mech army I'm trying to mass.
Again, if you like marines with your mech it's not wrong, it's just a different style, and with my play I think the hellions make more sense.
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On July 16 2011 02:43 dementrio wrote: Goody does the initial harass better than others and thats why imo he makes an inferior unit composition work. I played against him once, I was expecting reaper into banshee, he did exactly that and I still lost to it. I think what you can really get from his play is the way he controls his first units. E.g. against me he ran around with reapers taking as many hit on the hatch as he could, so that he could fly in with 2 banshees and finish it later.
Mech itself is not that strong. Contrary to the common mantra i found the best way to deal with it is expanding slowly, spine up everywhere and mass up infestors with roach/hydra support. the hydras are actually pretty important.
Why are the hydras important?
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Mech is ok versus Z, its still just not as effective as marine/tank tho. 3/3 marines counter every Z unit besides blings/infesot which gost/tank take care of. Mech has some serious problems with immobilty and anti air/NP and roach.
I wish mech would work vs Toss, I know goody does it versus Protoss to and gets some wins, but like other people said he seems to be just the oddball that people arent used to which helps him win.
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On July 16 2011 04:18 sick_transit wrote: Why are the hydras important?
they do a ton more damage than roaches, as they have more dps and more range (=more units shooting at once). Against mech the fact that they are slow doesn't matter and they have about the same durability as roaches - they take the same number of tank shots and hellions are outranged and die instantly. with about 10 neurals and a maxed 1:1 roach hydra army you can take a maxed mech army and come out ahead. that's why imo mech isn't that good, and overexpanding doesn't make sense (since you have the most cost effective army). Just play defensively and don't lose to harass.
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On July 15 2011 05:22 sick_transit wrote:
“Tanks and BF Hellions OWN Roaches and Lings” Very true, which is why I believe the circumstances of the engagement are important. The roaches need to take the siege shots to allow the lings to surround and the infestors to close for NP (or FG). I.e. the roaches need to go in a little ahead, which is the opposite of what happens if Z A-moves the whole army.
Roaches lose against tanks AND thors. Thors actually demolish roaches, no questions asked. This is even worse if you have unupgraded roaches, which is going to be the case against terran. Roaches have no place against a mech army, and against bio they also get stomped because of marauders. The conclusion is that roaches have absolutely no place in ZvT except to counter the first blueflame harass.
Lings suck against siege tanks, they suck against thors covered by blueflame helions, and they arent that good against thors to begin with. Its true that lings can kill thors efficiently while the numbers are low and the lings can get a good surround, but as soon as the numbers go up and the thors cant be surrounded anymore, the thors CAN annihilate all the lings without losing any thors whatsoever.
Fully upgraded thors vs fully upgraded lings means that lings will get 1 shotted by the thors while they only deal 4 damage per hit to the thors. Just to demonstrate how good thors actually are against lings: If you send 150 lings against 20 thors (both fully upgraded, and even with a full surround for the lings), all lings will die, while not a single thor dies. If you send 250 lings against 20 thors, only 4-7 thors die, depending on how good the surround was.
Go try it out in the unit tester, and dont try to counter with the argument that the unit tester isnt valid, in a real game you will never have a perfect surround because of chokes and ramps and siege tanks and blueflame helions covering your thors. Im just saying that lings, even under perfect circumstances (all upgrades and a perfect surround), dont stand a chance against thors on their own. 250 lings cost approximately the same amount of minerals that 20 thors cost
Lings are not a counter against masses of thors like goody is using them, even if you completely discount that there are blueflame helions and siegetanks AND chokes and whatnot. Ling/roach is completely screwed against mech, even if the zerg has perfect conditions.
The only thing that can battle mech (or thors in particular), are ultras, infestors, or broodlords. Any kind of unit composition that involves those stands a very good chance against mech. In actuality however, the mech timing (after blueflame harass) hits way earlier than zerg can tech switch to ultras or broodlords (after going for mutas or infestors initially).
As zerg cant really afford to tech to ultras or broodlords first (otherwise they just die to blueflame drop harass, or standard terran transition into bio with drops + siegetanks), they are stuck with getting mutas or infestors first in order to shut down that dropplay and then they are susceptible to the mech timing that goody showcased against idra, which in return looks unbeatable.
I honestly think blueflame drop harass opening with transition into thor/bfhelion/tank timing is much stronger than people are giving it credit for. It might even be a little overpowered in the current metagame where most zergs go for mutas or infestor first (because they want to shut down drop play). Neural can be good against thors, but if you dont have ultras or broodlords you cant really finish the army off and therefore only delay the inevitable.
I think the correct counter to blueflame helion harass with transition into thor/tank/helion, is to scout it very early and stop making mutas beyond the initial few as soon as possible. Now you proceed to tech to broodlors or ultras as soon as possible, get some infestors (neural is also a good thing to have) and some queens for transfusing those broodlords/ultras. If you keep building mutas you will die just like idra. If you go roach/ling/infestor you dont stand a chance at all (like i explained above).
The only other thing that could also work (which is a little controversial however), is going hydra infestor, but the positional disadvantage against siege tanks and the fact that hydras are very slow and therefore cant circumvent the tankline that efficiently makes this unit composition unfeasible.
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On July 16 2011 22:45 gh0un wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 05:22 sick_transit wrote:
“Tanks and BF Hellions OWN Roaches and Lings” Very true, which is why I believe the circumstances of the engagement are important. The roaches need to take the siege shots to allow the lings to surround and the infestors to close for NP (or FG). I.e. the roaches need to go in a little ahead, which is the opposite of what happens if Z A-moves the whole army. Roaches lose against tanks AND thors. Thors actually demolish roaches, no questions asked. This is even worse if you have unupgraded roaches, which is going to be the case against terran. Roaches have no place against a mech army, and against bio they also get stomped because of marauders. The conclusion is that roaches have absolutely no place in ZvT except to counter the first blueflame harass. Lings suck against siege tanks, they suck against thors covered by blueflame helions, and they arent that good against thors to begin with. Its true that lings can kill thors efficiently while the numbers are low and the lings can get a good surround, but as soon as the numbers go up and the thors cant be surrounded anymore, the thors CAN annihilate all the lings without losing any thors whatsoever. Fully upgraded thors vs fully upgraded lings means that lings will get 1 shotted by the thors while they only deal 4 damage per hit to the thors. Just to demonstrate how good thors actually are against lings: If you send 150 lings against 20 thors (both fully upgraded, and even with a full surround for the lings), all lings will die, while not a single thor dies. If you send 250 lings against 20 thors, only 4-7 thors die, depending on how good the surround was. Go try it out in the unit tester, and dont try to counter with the argument that the unit tester isnt valid, in a real game you will never have a perfect surround because of chokes and ramps and siege tanks and blueflame helions covering your thors. Im just saying that lings, even under perfect circumstances (all upgrades and a perfect surround), dont stand a chance against thors on their own. 250 lings cost approximately the same amount of minerals that 20 thors cost Lings are not a counter against masses of thors like goody is using them, even if you completely discount that there are blueflame helions and siegetanks AND chokes and whatnot. Ling/roach is completely screwed against mech, even if the zerg has perfect conditions. The only thing that can battle mech (or thors in particular), are ultras, infestors, or broodlords. Any kind of unit composition that involves those stands a very good chance against mech. In actuality however, the mech timing (after blueflame harass) hits way earlier than zerg can tech switch to ultras or broodlords (after going for mutas or infestors initially). As zerg cant really afford to tech to ultras or broodlords first (otherwise they just die to blueflame drop harass, or standard terran transition into bio with drops + siegetanks), they are stuck with getting mutas or infestors first in order to shut down that dropplay and then they are susceptible to the mech timing that goody showcased against idra, which in return looks unbeatable. I honestly think blueflame drop harass opening with transition into thor/bfhelion/tank timing is much stronger than people are giving it credit for. It might even be a little overpowered in the current metagame where most zergs go for mutas or infestor first (because they want to shut down drop play). Neural can be good against thors, but if you dont have ultras or broodlords you cant really finish the army off and therefore only delay the inevitable. I think the correct counter to blueflame helion harass with transition into thor/tank/helion, is to scout it very early and stop making mutas beyond the initial few as soon as possible. Now you proceed to tech to broodlors or ultras as soon as possible, get some infestors (neural is also a good thing to have) and some queens for transfusing those broodlords/ultras. If you keep building mutas you will die just like idra. If you go roach/ling/infestor you dont stand a chance at all (like i explained above). The only other thing that could also work (which is a little controversial however), is going hydra infestor, but the positional disadvantage against siege tanks and the fact that hydras are very slow and therefore cant circumvent the tankline that efficiently makes this unit composition unfeasible.
Stop giving people bad advice on playing vs mech. Roach/infestor has been a standard and effective response to mech for ages to the point that if Zerg does manage a maxed roach infestor ball vs lots of thors/tanks Terran eventually has to add in ghosts or cloaked banshees.
Roach/infestor and mass expoing into broods has always been one of the best options against mech.
Also, you're wrong, mass lings can work with mass mutas because if you get good surrounds and catch tanks unsieged (ideally) you have so many that the thors cannot be cost effective because mutas are being magic boxed and being shot 1 at a time while mass lings are putting in all of their DPS + tank splash.
A lot of times Z vs mech can be map dependent, roach/infestor or ling/muta/roach or faster techs will be more or less effective depending on the map. Also, late game multiple nydus worms are really, really good.
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On July 16 2011 22:59 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 22:45 gh0un wrote:On July 15 2011 05:22 sick_transit wrote:
“Tanks and BF Hellions OWN Roaches and Lings” Very true, which is why I believe the circumstances of the engagement are important. The roaches need to take the siege shots to allow the lings to surround and the infestors to close for NP (or FG). I.e. the roaches need to go in a little ahead, which is the opposite of what happens if Z A-moves the whole army. Roaches lose against tanks AND thors. Thors actually demolish roaches, no questions asked. This is even worse if you have unupgraded roaches, which is going to be the case against terran. Roaches have no place against a mech army, and against bio they also get stomped because of marauders. The conclusion is that roaches have absolutely no place in ZvT except to counter the first blueflame harass. Lings suck against siege tanks, they suck against thors covered by blueflame helions, and they arent that good against thors to begin with. Its true that lings can kill thors efficiently while the numbers are low and the lings can get a good surround, but as soon as the numbers go up and the thors cant be surrounded anymore, the thors CAN annihilate all the lings without losing any thors whatsoever. Fully upgraded thors vs fully upgraded lings means that lings will get 1 shotted by the thors while they only deal 4 damage per hit to the thors. Just to demonstrate how good thors actually are against lings: If you send 150 lings against 20 thors (both fully upgraded, and even with a full surround for the lings), all lings will die, while not a single thor dies. If you send 250 lings against 20 thors, only 4-7 thors die, depending on how good the surround was. Go try it out in the unit tester, and dont try to counter with the argument that the unit tester isnt valid, in a real game you will never have a perfect surround because of chokes and ramps and siege tanks and blueflame helions covering your thors. Im just saying that lings, even under perfect circumstances (all upgrades and a perfect surround), dont stand a chance against thors on their own. 250 lings cost approximately the same amount of minerals that 20 thors cost Lings are not a counter against masses of thors like goody is using them, even if you completely discount that there are blueflame helions and siegetanks AND chokes and whatnot. Ling/roach is completely screwed against mech, even if the zerg has perfect conditions. The only thing that can battle mech (or thors in particular), are ultras, infestors, or broodlords. Any kind of unit composition that involves those stands a very good chance against mech. In actuality however, the mech timing (after blueflame harass) hits way earlier than zerg can tech switch to ultras or broodlords (after going for mutas or infestors initially). As zerg cant really afford to tech to ultras or broodlords first (otherwise they just die to blueflame drop harass, or standard terran transition into bio with drops + siegetanks), they are stuck with getting mutas or infestors first in order to shut down that dropplay and then they are susceptible to the mech timing that goody showcased against idra, which in return looks unbeatable. I honestly think blueflame drop harass opening with transition into thor/bfhelion/tank timing is much stronger than people are giving it credit for. It might even be a little overpowered in the current metagame where most zergs go for mutas or infestor first (because they want to shut down drop play). Neural can be good against thors, but if you dont have ultras or broodlords you cant really finish the army off and therefore only delay the inevitable. I think the correct counter to blueflame helion harass with transition into thor/tank/helion, is to scout it very early and stop making mutas beyond the initial few as soon as possible. Now you proceed to tech to broodlors or ultras as soon as possible, get some infestors (neural is also a good thing to have) and some queens for transfusing those broodlords/ultras. If you keep building mutas you will die just like idra. If you go roach/ling/infestor you dont stand a chance at all (like i explained above). The only other thing that could also work (which is a little controversial however), is going hydra infestor, but the positional disadvantage against siege tanks and the fact that hydras are very slow and therefore cant circumvent the tankline that efficiently makes this unit composition unfeasible. Roach/infestor has been a standard and effective response to mech for ages
And thats why we almost never see any prozerg going for roach/infestor against tank/thor/helion. There are some cases where it works (and where it worked in a progame) but in those cases zerg had huge economical advantages and werent really harassed at all. Stop giving people bullshit roach as the answer versus mech.
Did you see the 2-2 timing on goodies mech? If you go for roach/ling/infestor, you dont have enough gas (or time) to upgrade both your roaches and your lings. If you dont upgrade your lings, they will deal no damage to the thors, if you dont upgrade your roaches, they will do significantly less damage to thors.
I will agree that ling/muta is very good against that kind of mech, especially if you catch tanks unsieged and the blueflame helions out of position, but thats too many ifs. Broodlord/ultra/infestor doesnt depend on the terran messing up his positioning, it will kill it either way. Btw ling/muta has absolutely nothing to do with roaches.
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i agree that lings are pretty much worthless vs mech, roaches are cheap cannon fodder for your real damage dealers - hydras and neural parasites. as long as you can neural the front line without losing infestors, which is not that hard to do, you can't lose. when the roaches die back off and replenish them.
If you open spire blindly and try to transition into infestors when your mutas scout mech you WILL be vulnerable for a window of time that depends on how much damage your mutas do. But even a couple neurals make a huge difference.
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. Roach/infestor has been a standard and effective response to mech for ages to the point that if Zerg does manage a maxed roach infestor ball vs lots of thors/tanks Terran eventually has to add in ghosts or cloaked banshees.
I think this only works at the lower levels of play where Terrans aren't quite as good at siege tank positioning. If Terran goes mech with a really heavy siege tank count - just the same as a Terran going rine/tank who has an extremely high tank count - roaches and infestors will melt.
Of course BL/Infestor is good, but on even bases, it's actually really bad.
I really think the only way to play against mech is ling/bling/muta to encourage more thors than siege tanks and to harass. Mutas are not bad at all against thors when you have a high count of them and are on 2+ bases above Terran, and will let you rush to broodlords and cracklings.
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On July 17 2011 05:04 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +. Roach/infestor has been a standard and effective response to mech for ages to the point that if Zerg does manage a maxed roach infestor ball vs lots of thors/tanks Terran eventually has to add in ghosts or cloaked banshees. I think this only works at the lower levels of play where Terrans aren't quite as good at siege tank positioning. If Terran goes mech with a really heavy siege tank count - just the same as a Terran going rine/tank who has an extremely high tank count - roaches and infestors will melt. Of course BL/Infestor is good, but on even bases, it's actually really bad. I really think the only way to play against mech is ling/bling/muta to encourage more thors than siege tanks and to harass. Mutas are not bad at all against thors when you have a high count of them and are on 2+ bases above Terran, and will let you rush to broodlords and cracklings.
I hope you know that avilo is a high level player with lots of experience in mech -_-. ling/bling/muta get's absolutely murdered once there's enough thors with scvs repairing and ~ 6 hellions
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Roaches and infestors get owned by mass siege tanks?
I only think roach/infestor works against mech that doesn't have enough siege tanks, and is heavier on thors or hellions. And of course Roach/Infestor/BL is great, because broodlords is the goal, which shuts down mech play, but mech will generally push before BL's are out (ie Goody does this a lot). Ling/bane/muta will own thor heavy mech compositions.
It's a delicate balance game for both players to have banes for SCVs, infestors for hellions, lings for thors, and mutas for tanks. You also have to keep your mutas alive, 6 mutas will rape a thor with most left alive, but 5 mutas and the thors will mostly survive.
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On July 17 2011 06:30 Belial88 wrote: Roaches and infestors get owned by mass siege tanks?
I only think roach/infestor works against mech that doesn't have enough siege tanks, and is heavier on thors or hellions. And of course Roach/Infestor/BL is great, because broodlords is the goal, which shuts down mech play, but mech will generally push before BL's are out (ie Goody does this a lot). Ling/bane/muta will own thor heavy mech compositions.
It's a delicate balance game for both players to have banes for SCVs, infestors for hellions, lings for thors, and mutas for tanks. You also have to keep your mutas alive, 6 mutas will rape a thor with most left alive, but 5 mutas and the thors will mostly survive.
you can't just say 6 mutas will rape a thor, because at some point even endless mutas won't be enough. THEY aren't useful anymore once there's like 9 thors.
tanks vs Infestor roach depends solely on positioning though.
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I think everyone would agree that T3 units (specifically broods) are the goal in terms of dealing with a mech composition. What makes this build hard to deal with is the push coming at 16:30. You can see this in the game against Nestea where he DOESN'T do this build--his push is stronger, but just a bit later, and Nestea has BLs and is able to clean it up. In all the games where he used this build his opponents never had BLs out by 16:30 and those are some pretty good players.
Is a viable response to this to fall back, turtle up and get BLs out by the 16:30 mark? I think you would need at least 4. Would you have the gas/larva for muta harass? To get infestors with NP out? In other words, what would you have to cut in terms of your core roach/infestor army to get there and is it even possible to do it safely?
To me that's the question.
Edit: I mean the Nestea game on Shakuras.
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So, I decided to answer my question using IdrA as a benchmark--assuming him to be the gold standard for Zerg macro.
Getting broodlords out takes 6:04 from the time lair starts. So as a matter of time it is doable to get them out by 16:00. (Lair start by 10:00.)
The tech plus corruptors plus broodlords costs 2100 gas (this also includes the infestation pit and "necessary" upgrades like pathogen, neural, roach speed but not attack or carapace upgrades).
IdrA mined 4248 gas. So after deducting the cost of the tech and broodlords that leaves 2100 gas for infestors and roaches. This isn't surprising. After all, IdrA did build 19 mutalisks. That seems like plenty of infestors and roaches.
I haven't analyzed the minerals side of it or taken into account the damage done by IdrA with his mutalisks.
Hm.
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I absolutely hate this kind of play and it's getting more standard on EU as far as my ladder encounters go.
I have been getting overlord drop and speed to counter this for 2 reasons: - you can drop and pin the terran in his base for a little while longer, delaying these really painful pushes
- when you lead your army with an overlord filled with something and drop-click it, it diverts a lot of the tankfire
My first idea was to load up all of my roaches and drop it on the terran army. My idea was based on the fact that without splash damage roaches would be decent vs siege tanks and that roaches already do fairly well vs thors. This does not work, the dropping goes to slow and your whole army gets shred to pieces before the last roach is out and does not get a chance to dps.
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you can't just say 6 mutas will rape a thor, because at some point even endless mutas won't be enough. THEY aren't useful anymore once there's like 9 thors.
Why do you say that? With magic box, it's fine. Given how much faster mutas more than thors, doing something like moving the thors during battle or spreading isn't helpful.
Is a viable response to this to fall back, turtle up and get BLs out by the 16:30 mark? I think you would need at least 4. Would you have the gas/larva for muta harass? To get infestors with NP out? In other words, what would you have to cut in terms of your core roach/infestor army to get there and is it even possible to do it safely?
The problem is identifying "Is Terran doing a 2 base mech push, or 3 base mech push?". If you watch, say, Goody vs Idra, Goddy always moves out when Idra starts morphing hive. If you identify a 3 base push and your wrong, or he decides just to move out while expanding, and you are trying to get BL's, you'll die. If you think it's 2 base, and then suddenly you see his third, you'll die because your BL's are too late.
If you can identify they are going for the lategame, then yes, you want to take a third and fourth ASAP and rush BL's. If they are going to do a mid-game push, you'll want to start pumping mutas and lings.
I really don't think Roach/Infestor is the answer. I've never seen a game where that worked. Roaches and infestors just get too smashed by siege tanks, and way too supply inefficient. If roaches were 1 supply it would work.
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On July 17 2011 06:30 Belial88 wrote: Roaches and infestors get owned by mass siege tanks?
I only think roach/infestor works against mech that doesn't have enough siege tanks, and is heavier on thors or hellions. And of course Roach/Infestor/BL is great, because broodlords is the goal, which shuts down mech play, but mech will generally push before BL's are out (ie Goody does this a lot). Ling/bane/muta will own thor heavy mech compositions.
It's a delicate balance game for both players to have banes for SCVs, infestors for hellions, lings for thors, and mutas for tanks. You also have to keep your mutas alive, 6 mutas will rape a thor with most left alive, but 5 mutas and the thors will mostly survive.
I dunno, if they have a lot of siege tanks, roaches go in and take the first volley and then you use NP+unsiege on tanks. Saw Nerchio do this against sixjax Major in IPL recently. Even if they kill the infestor almost immediately after the NP starts, some pretty important "damage" is done.
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On July 17 2011 11:41 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +you can't just say 6 mutas will rape a thor, because at some point even endless mutas won't be enough. THEY aren't useful anymore once there's like 9 thors. Why do you say that? With magic box, it's fine. Given how much faster mutas more than thors, doing something like moving the thors during battle or spreading isn't helpful. Show nested quote +Is a viable response to this to fall back, turtle up and get BLs out by the 16:30 mark? I think you would need at least 4. Would you have the gas/larva for muta harass? To get infestors with NP out? In other words, what would you have to cut in terms of your core roach/infestor army to get there and is it even possible to do it safely? The problem is identifying "Is Terran doing a 2 base mech push, or 3 base mech push?". If you watch, say, Goody vs Idra, Goddy always moves out when Idra starts morphing hive. If you identify a 3 base push and your wrong, or he decides just to move out while expanding, and you are trying to get BL's, you'll die. If you think it's 2 base, and then suddenly you see his third, you'll die because your BL's are too late. If you can identify they are going for the lategame, then yes, you want to take a third and fourth ASAP and rush BL's. If they are going to do a mid-game push, you'll want to start pumping mutas and lings. I really don't think Roach/Infestor is the answer. I've never seen a game where that worked. Roaches and infestors just get too smashed by siege tanks, and way too supply inefficient. If roaches were 1 supply it would work.
okay this is the last time I'll answer you:
My experience might not be good enough for you, but I had people go mass mass muta against my thor army, with magic box and they simply evaporate. The surface area of the thors gets to big for magic box to be effective, every muta shots at a different thor and they do almost no damage. At the same time you repair your thors, so they are almost unkillable. A pack of mutas is fine for harassment, but at some point they meching player can just k,ill you.
Infestors on the other hand are much more scary and if you have bad positioning np will wreck your army. The same with broods. Against that you need a bunch of ghosts and some lucky emps.
I suppose you watch any recent mech game, you will see that roach infestor is the way to go.
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The amount of people with no clue giving advice makes me sick.
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