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EDIT: to fix timing per post below; to fix link per post below; to correct IdrA's mutalisk #.
This is my first thread topic on TL strat forum so be kind!
The purpose of this thread is to discuss Goody’s TvZ mech build. I was inspired to seek discussion on this after watching him beat IdrA and Spanishiwa with it in a very handy fashion. Here are links to the VODs.
vIdrA vSpanishiwa vSpanishiwa
And here’s a link to a rep where he uses it to win against Nerchio. vNerchio
Here’s a rep where he loses with it against Nerchio.
Losing to Nerchio, Tal'Darim
Goody’s Plan
I’m not going to break his build down by food counts because the purpose here is to explore reactions to what it produces, not to explain how to do it. Goody opens with a tech lab barracks and produces 1-3 reapers, which he uses to attempt some cost effective harassment (+attempted bunkers). He then builds a factory on the tech lab and begins researching blue flame and producing hellions. He then begins BF hellion harassment, which continues as long as it can be successful. In the meantime he expands, begins 1/1 mech upgrades, and begins massing tanks and thors. BF hellion harassment may or may not continue via drop. He then pushes out with a VERY strong mix of Thors, Hellions and Siege Tanks at around the 16:30-17:00 (game time) mark. Thor numbers are dependent on whether the Z has shown mutas.
IdrA
After managing the initial reaper harass, IdrA used queens and two spinecrawlers to minimize the economic damage of the hellion harass. However, drop BF harass by Goody bypassed the spine at the main and proved effective. After Goody showed drops, IdrA teched to spire and produced a sizable force (~19) of mutalisks, which successfully delayed Goody’s expansions and killed some workers. He then teched to infestors. However, when Goody’s force arrived the mutalisks were effectively kept out of the fight by the high Thor count, and IdrA simply didn’t have enough other units to scratch Goody’s force.
Spanishiwa
In these games, Goody did a stupid amount economic damage with BF hellion harass. In the first game S built a late roach warren and never built spinecrawlers. Goody put him so far behind that S resorted to infestor harass to try to catch up. He succeeded in killing some workers and delaying Goody’s economy. However, when the push came S had a bunch of infestors and very few other units to deal with it.
In the second game S got roaches out earlier and managed the BF hellion harass better—but the hellions still did major economic damage by running around the roaches. S then massed infestors; but once his small support force had been eliminated, mass infestor had nothing to stop a combination of hellion/tank/thor/raven.
Nerchio
In the game he wins, his BF hellion drop does outrageous economic damage. Nerchio engages the push with roaches and infestors but effectively no lings. In the game he loses, he loses due to a basic positioning error. He parks his army below the ramp on Tal Darim; Nerchio circles around through the “third” and breaks into the nat and the main, killing 20+ workers and several tanks. Nerchio reinforces and then breaks the remaining T army.
Analysis
This build succeeds because it is hard on Zerg’s larva. The point of the reaper/hellion harass is not to reduce resource collection rate but to force the zerg to spend larva rebuilding drones. This ensures victory later on, because it seems that the cornerstone of beating the main push has to be a very larva-inefficient army of upgraded mass lings, supported with roaches to tank damage and infestors with NP to cut down the number of enemy units firing at once. The larva-efficient units (roaches, infestors, mutas) don’t cut it against this army in a straight-up fight.
Therefore, it seems to me that the right response to this strategy has to involve static defense on the mineral line. The investment in a few spinecrawlers to shut down the loss of workers seems more than worth it. It seems to me that a macro hatch to increase larva production is also a good idea. Avoid mutas and banes, tech to NP and produce roaches, while massing lings with excess minerals. Make infestors but do not “mass” them.
The other key element of defense is positioning. Once the tanks siege up outside the Z’s natural, it’s too late, pretty much regardless of army comp. Z needs to pick a wide-open space on the attack path from T’s base and commit to engage there. Roaches go in first to take tank shots followed by slings. If possible position infestors on high ground to deliver NPs. If high ground isn’t available I would cut down infestor numbers because they are likely to be less useful.
Finally, counterattacks are not as strong as they might seem. Counterattacks might seem good, because thors and tanks are slow and the terran army needs to stay together. However, killing a lot of the terran’s workers is not a good trade for losing all your bases, and the push is so strong that sending half your army against it is going to be a one-sided massacre. Nerchio won not really through a counter attack but by bypassing Goody’s army at a time when Goody’s army was not threatening him. Nerchio thus demonstrates a great principle for beating this strat: go around the T army rather than engaging it. But this will only work on certain maps and depends somewhat on errors by T.
Responses to Anticipated Criticisms
“This is way too theorycrafty! Show us replays of this working!” This is a [D] and not a [G]. I’m not good enough to play Goody! I looked for reps of him losing with this strat and only found the one game against Nerchio. Replays of him losing that support or undermine my thoughts are a welcome contribution to the thread. If you don't want to discuss just don't post; if everyone feels the same way this post will drop off the strat forum in 5 minutes.
“Tanks and BF Hellions OWN Roaches and Lings” Very true, which is why I believe the circumstances of the engagement are important. The roaches need to take the siege shots to allow the lings to surround and the infestors to close for NP (or FG). I.e. the roaches need to go in a little ahead, which is the opposite of what happens if Z A-moves the whole army.
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you forgot to mention his matches against NesTea in the TSL 3
Game 1 on Shakuras Plateau
Game 2 on Xel'Naga Caverns
Edit: Forgot there were 3 games lol
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Thanks! I did not know about those. There are also reps of him using this vs. Catz. I didn't discuss them because the post was getting too long but they are at www.sc2rep.com.
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Thanks for making this thread, haven't seen his play in a while, time to get up to date again :D
Edit:
He then pushes out with a VERY strong mix of Thors, Hellions and Siege Tanks at around the 12:30 mark
I thought that sounded a bit early, you mean 12:30 real time but actually more like 16:50 in the game :D
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On July 15 2011 05:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Thanks for making this thread, haven't seen his play in a while, time to get up to date again :D Edit: Show nested quote +He then pushes out with a VERY strong mix of Thors, Hellions and Siege Tanks at around the 12:30 mark I thought that sounded a bit early, you mean 12:30 real time but actually more like 16:50 in the game :D
You're right, of course. Thanks!
Will edit to fix.
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A few things people don't seem to notice about goody's builds : He always builds 1 viking independently of his build. He uses it to gain map control and snipe a few Overlords if possible. He also uses Hellions vs non-light units because of 2 reasons : It has splash damage and its also a good meatshield for tanks and thors alike. The AOE damage is an effective DPS multiplier. He has an AOE build which destroys standart Zerg play. (siege tanks hellions and thors are three units with aoe.
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On July 15 2011 05:41 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: you forgot to mention his matches against NesTea in the TSL 3
Jesus f**king Christ!!
Those games were immense, thanks for sharing
EDIT & RE: Topic
I think half of his strength comes from the common sense plays that he makes:
-building a single Viking to harass overlords and deny scouting -using BFH to stop "lazy" zergling usage (a lot of Z players turn to lings as a quick fix solution without considering whether they are the best unit) -use of unseiged tanks -use of raven and banshee when the opportunity presents itself -willing to accept "trading" scenarios when he considers the trade worthwhile (such as sacking BFH to keep drone counts down)
I don't think his success is necessarily down to a build order, or a specific strategy. It's just intelligent play that makes use of great timings and all the tools that are available him.
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Just thinking out loud but after scouting the tech labbed factory and hellions could some defensive roaches in position deflect enough of the bf hellion harrass while teching to lair and attempting to use mutas to exploit the immobility of the thor to harrass, because mutas against the initial one or two thors with magic box might be efficient enough to take them out and the lack of anti air could then be a problem for goody Also, goody could respond with a earlier starport to try and continue harrass with bf hellion drops thus delaying the thors further Ex game vs idra I just believe that spines dunt stop the hellions unless theres a heavy number in the mineral line, at which point one or two good shots can still be extremely effective, so id argue roaches, with well positioned evo chambers to stop the bf hellions into mass muta, when engaging using roach muta? Obviously if a bunch of drones are lost then this wont work but im just talking =p
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As a Zerg I feel more and more Terrans do that build. Because of looking for the right decisions to fight the hellion-thor-tank-army, I would like you to fix that link of Goody losing against Nerchio which isn't working properly. Somehow it's nearly the same address as the replay of Goody winning. Would be cool and thanks for the analysis.
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On July 15 2011 07:37 TobiWan wrote: As a Zerg I feel more and more Terrans do that build. Because of looking for the right decisions to fight the hellion-thor-tank-army, I would like you to fix that link of Goody losing against Nerchio which isn't working properly. Somehow it's nearly the same address as the replay of Goody winning. Would be cool and thanks for the analysis.
Fixed! Thanks, good catch.
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The problem is the balance between Tanks and Thors. If you go hellion and make slightly too few Thors your whole army will be wiped out by mass muta. If you instead use Marines as a complement to your Tanks and Thors you are much safer if your balance between Tanks and Thors at some point is not perfect.
Marines are just as good as wiping out mineral lines as Hellions plus they can snipe the hatcheries which is often even better then killing the drones. I see no reason to use hellions as mineral dump instead of marines, marines do ok/good vs everything but banelings while Hellions excel against speedlings but suck vs everything else. Marines complement Tank/Thor better than hellions and is a much better mineral dump in almost every case.
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if you use Marines you need medivacs, stim/shield and upgrades. It just does not flow well and your tank/thor count will be much smaller than with a hellion dump.
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I've been watching a lot of good's TvZ lately, and I'm not convinced that his victories are a result of skill as much as zerg players responding badly to an unusual style. His trick seems to be overcommitting to harass, so that he hits the zerg with waves of bf hellions long after most terrans would have switched to tank/marine. In the current metagame, z is scared of a midgame push. Midgame harass with a powerful lategame mech push is unexpected, but once the metagame shifts and goody isn't able to kill huge numbers of drones with bf hellion harass in every game, his style is going to fall apart.
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On July 15 2011 08:38 pwadoc wrote: I've been watching a lot of good's TvZ lately, and I'm not convinced that his victories are a result of skill as much as zerg players responding badly to an unusual style. His trick seems to be overcommitting to harass, so that he hits the zerg with waves of bf hellions long after most terrans would have switched to tank/marine. In the current metagame, z is scared of a midgame push. Midgame harass with a powerful lategame mech push is unexpected, but once the metagame shifts and goody isn't able to kill huge numbers of drones with bf hellion harass in every game, his style is going to fall apart. EmpireNerchio has played GoOdy over and over and over and has good anti mech ZvT, but it's still even games when they play. And Nerchio is definitely no pushover
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On July 15 2011 08:55 aFF.TEEN wrote: EmpireNerchio has played GoOdy over and over and over and has good anti mech ZvT, but it's still even games when they play. And Nerchio is definitely no pushover
The last series I saw them play didn't seem even at all. Basically Nerchio countered all of GoOdy's harass attempts and got a huge lead. GoOdy commits to so much harass that he doesn't have an army until really late in the game.
Just on the level of mechanics, not only is GoOdy's apm really low, he also tends to get supply blocked, which is really unusual in pro players.
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As a Zerg player, I think the best way to deal with this type of style is the same as any - ling/bane/muta! Of course, there's more to it than that, and more differences, but that's the idea. Recently ling/infestor has been really popular in TvZ, and imo it's much worse than ling/bane/muta against any good terran with rine/tank, mech, particularly goody style, just rolls infestor based play.
Not saying infestors are useless against it, it's just they aren't good en mass, as siege tanks destroy infestors. Which is why good rine/tank will own infestor play unless the Terran is bad or only has 2 or less factories on 2 base and thinks making more marines is good idea against infestor. Anyways.
What I find works best is make lots more mutas, dump all the mid-game gas into mutas, upgrades, and not banelings. Siege tanks are the biggest problem in Goody style mech, just like in any Terran style, so you need lots of siege tanks. Get lots of air upgrades, particularly army because you cannot lose mutas.
It only takes 6 magic boxed mutas to beat a thor! Expand like crazy, get hive tech going on your third, and take a super fast fourth. Add a few infestors in your army - just a few, and rush to broodlords. Normally, rushing to BL's is almost impossible, and even if you get them out, vikings or super high thor counts ruin them. By using mutas to harass the opponent and force missile turrets, that means you can take more bases and hold off his mid-game mech army until broodlords pop.
I know a lot of zerg like roaches against this style, but I think that's really stupid. Siege tanks own roaches, thors own roaches. Nestea added a few into his army against Goody on the game he won, but he also did that in the games he lost. And he probably fared so well because he had so many lings, instead of just pure roach like many players try to do, and fail, against mech style.
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On July 15 2011 09:00 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 08:55 aFF.TEEN wrote: EmpireNerchio has played GoOdy over and over and over and has good anti mech ZvT, but it's still even games when they play. And Nerchio is definitely no pushover The last series I saw them play didn't seem even at all. Basically Nerchio countered all of GoOdy's harass attempts and got a huge lead. GoOdy commits to so much harass that he doesn't have an army until really late in the game. Just on the level of mechanics, not only is GoOdy's apm really low, he also tends to get supply blocked, which is really unusual in pro players. remind me, how does his poor execution makes his builds bad?
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On July 15 2011 08:10 MockHamill wrote: The problem is the balance between Tanks and Thors. If you go hellion and make slightly too few Thors your whole army will be wiped out by mass muta. If you instead use Marines as a complement to your Tanks and Thors you are much safer if your balance between Tanks and Thors at some point is not perfect.
Marines are just as good as wiping out mineral lines as Hellions plus they can snipe the hatcheries which is often even better then killing the drones. I see no reason to use hellions as mineral dump instead of marines, marines do ok/good vs everything but banelings while Hellions excel against speedlings but suck vs everything else. Marines complement Tank/Thor better than hellions and is a much better mineral dump in almost every case.
Sure, there are more biomech builds like the one MMA used against Losira on Shattered in MLG finals, and the biomech build Boxer used against Idra in the very last set of NASL group stages and recently in the geforce tourny against Xlord, where they open with bio harass (reaper expand or 2 rax respectively) into BF hellion into thors and tanks and medivacs (and marines the whole time).
They use the mainly Thor/Tank like mech, for position, while dropping marines all over. Pretty effective, and in many ways better than Hellions, though it is a little harder of course just because you have more kinds of units to control ^_^
(They both get double bio upgrades and mech attack)
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Really happy to see this thread - Starting to learn some mech lately, and it's great to see a thread with replays, content to discuss and not 1000 reply cheese threads :D.
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Great OP. But this is not new whatsoever.. I've even been doing this since BETA.. Glad to see some professional players doing it, I believe BoxeR used all mech ages ago in a GSL, and same with MMA.
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United States7483 Posts
The best part about Goody's mech play is that his macro is awful, an his multi-tasking sucks (he said in an interview that he can't play bio because he doesn't have the multi-tasking for it), yet he still kicks ass and wins big games vs. great players.
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On July 15 2011 14:59 Whitewing wrote: The best part about Goody's mech play is that his macro is awful, an his multi-tasking sucks (he said in an interview that he can't play bio because he doesn't have the multi-tasking for it), yet he still kicks ass and wins big games vs. great players.
Why exactly is that a good thing?
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On July 15 2011 15:05 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 14:59 Whitewing wrote: The best part about Goody's mech play is that his macro is awful, an his multi-tasking sucks (he said in an interview that he can't play bio because he doesn't have the multi-tasking for it), yet he still kicks ass and wins big games vs. great players. Why exactly is that a good thing? Probably to do with the fact that game sense is much more important with mech, knowing when to push and when to turtle can easily make the difference between winning and losing.
With respect to the tsl games, the first game goody turtles then dies to broodlords, the next two he allins and crushes an unsuspecting nestea. The third game is the best but none are really the "new" mech style that is becoming much more popular in tvz (watch gsl or beastyqt or almost any terran to see what I mean). Going pure mech relies on harassment with hellions, if you can't kill drones or force your opponent to stop droning, your opponent will be maxed and will crush you with muta/roach before you are maxed. As zerg you have to ensure harassment doesn't do too much damage and make sure your unit comp can trade cost effectively or near cost effectively with your opponent. Make too many mutas and die to pure thor, make lings and roaches and die to tanks and hellions, etc. The same sort of thinking about unit comp is important for terrans as well; even though you will only be making 3 factory units for most of the game, making too many of each can mean win or loss.
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On July 15 2011 15:24 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 15:05 pwadoc wrote:On July 15 2011 14:59 Whitewing wrote: The best part about Goody's mech play is that his macro is awful, an his multi-tasking sucks (he said in an interview that he can't play bio because he doesn't have the multi-tasking for it), yet he still kicks ass and wins big games vs. great players. Why exactly is that a good thing? Probably to do with the fact that game sense is much more important with mech, knowing when to push and when to turtle can easily make the difference between winning and losing. With respect to the tsl games, the first game goody turtles then dies to broodlords, the next two he allins and crushes an unsuspecting nestea. The third game is the best but none are really the "new" mech style that is becoming much more popular in tvz (watch gsl or beastyqt or almost any terran to see what I mean). Going pure mech relies on harassment with hellions, if you can't kill drones or force your opponent to stop droning, your opponent will be maxed and will crush you with muta/roach before you are maxed. As zerg you have to ensure harassment doesn't do too much damage and make sure your unit comp can trade cost effectively or near cost effectively with your opponent. Make too many mutas and die to pure thor, make lings and roaches and die to tanks and hellions, etc. The same sort of thinking about unit comp is important for terrans as well; even though you will only be making 3 factory units for most of the game, making too many of each can mean win or loss.
Right--in the TSL games he is not actually doing this build. The hallmark of this build is swapping the factory onto the tech lab built on the wall-in barracks. This allows him to start BF upgrade at the earliest possible moment. The heavy BF harassment is a key element of this build.
Nevertheless the TSL games are indeed epic and I'm glad someone posted them into the thread.
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On July 15 2011 08:38 pwadoc wrote: I've been watching a lot of good's TvZ lately, and I'm not convinced that his victories are a result of skill as much as zerg players responding badly to an unusual style. His trick seems to be overcommitting to harass, so that he hits the zerg with waves of bf hellions long after most terrans would have switched to tank/marine. In the current metagame, z is scared of a midgame push. Midgame harass with a powerful lategame mech push is unexpected, but once the metagame shifts and goody isn't able to kill huge numbers of drones with bf hellion harass in every game, his style is going to fall apart.
I really dislike your post beacuse its too mcuh theorycrafting. 1) Mech really relies on mech. I agree. There is nothing bad about this, its just the way it works. 2) You think Zergplayers dont scout at all or react to the playstyle. I cant imagine a proplayer who does not build enough stuff in the right time when the slow Mech army moves out. A lot of people know GoOdys style because he only varies the most at the early game. But you just say people arent able to defend midgame harass? Or even a Lategame Push? You must be kidding O.o 3) If the harassment doesnt pay off - he looses. Well, if you read this you have to think: "Yeah thats the most normal thing in the world". You cant be serious on any of your points
On July 15 2011 12:38 Belial88 wrote: It only takes 6 magic boxed mutas to beat a thor! Expand like crazy, get hive tech going on your third, and take a super fast fourth. Add a few infestors in your army - just a few, and rush to broodlords. Normally, rushing to BL's is almost impossible, and even if you get them out, vikings or super high thor counts ruin them. By using mutas to harass the opponent and force missile turrets, that means you can take more bases and hold off his mid-game mech army until broodlords pop.
I know a lot of zerg like roaches against this style, but I think that's really stupid. Siege tanks own roaches, thors own roaches. Nestea added a few into his army against Goody on the game he won, but he also did that in the games he lost. And he probably fared so well because he had so many lings, instead of just pure roach like many players try to do, and fail, against mech style.
Expand like crazy - loose every drone to harass. Thats how your playstyle looks to me. If you spread out that fast you dont have a lot of defense. A good Meching Terran will take this oopurtunity and just go and kill you while harassing every base with 2-x BF Hellions.
So you think Ling, Baneling, Muta ist a lot better than Roach Infestor against this, cause Roaches and Infestors arent that good against Taks and Thors. Here is the thing: Ling/Bling/Muta are terrible against BF Hellions, Tanks and Thors. If you watch someone go for this strategy against Mech he always gets roflstomped like hell. Tanks+BF Hellions are incredible against Lings/Blings. Blings just dont do damage at alle in these fights. U play Blings to kill of the Antiair and clean up with Mutas in normal Marine/Tank style You cant try to kill Thors with Blings. Its just super inneffective. Thor obliterate Mutas (Upgrade advantage, spread out, maybe a Raven with PDD) Magicboxing isnt that supereffective if the Thors dont clump up.
On July 15 2011 13:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 08:10 MockHamill wrote: The problem is the balance between Tanks and Thors. If you go hellion and make slightly too few Thors your whole army will be wiped out by mass muta. If you instead use Marines as a complement to your Tanks and Thors you are much safer if your balance between Tanks and Thors at some point is not perfect.
Marines are just as good as wiping out mineral lines as Hellions plus they can snipe the hatcheries which is often even better then killing the drones. I see no reason to use hellions as mineral dump instead of marines, marines do ok/good vs everything but banelings while Hellions excel against speedlings but suck vs everything else. Marines complement Tank/Thor better than hellions and is a much better mineral dump in almost every case. Sure, there are more biomech builds like the one MMA used against Losira on Shattered in MLG finals, and the biomech build Boxer used against Idra in the very last set of NASL group stages and recently in the geforce tourny against Xlord, where they open with bio harass (reaper expand or 2 rax respectively) into BF hellion into thors and tanks and medivacs (and marines the whole time). They use the mainly Thor/Tank like mech, for position, while dropping marines all over. Pretty effective, and in many ways better than Hellions, though it is a little harder of course just because you have more kinds of units to control ^_^ (They both get double bio upgrades and mech attack)
Getting both Bio and Mech upgrades just slows down your push and makes the game a lot less easy for you. Sure MassMutaslisks arent a great deal if you do this, but Ling/Bling Infestor/x will be a lot more stronger against this style. You have no real meatshield, less splashdamage, you have to dump your gas into Medivacs, Upgrades etc and BF Hellions are a lot better at harassing, because it just gives your opponent a lot less time to react AND he cant really use Lings against it which means that he needs a lot more time to react/ a lot of Spinecrawlers. I dont see why this should be stronger at all.
On July 15 2011 14:59 Whitewing wrote: The best part about Goody's mech play is that his macro is awful, an his multi-tasking sucks (he said in an interview that he can't play bio because he doesn't have the multi-tasking for it), yet he still kicks ass and wins big games vs. great players. I cant imagine he said this. He does play Bio from time to time and if he couldnt play Mech he would go back to play Protoss. And he played some Protoss in some tournaments for fun and won against good players. Saying that he sucks that hard at mechnics would just implement he cant be good at all at anything else then MechTerran. But GoOdy is giving a very good fight while playing Protoss to top tier players in EU (BratOK, Sjow etc). Its just his preference to roll tanks around and stomp a lot of toptier players.
He is a beast in TvT and TvZ - TvP aint good at all for Mech since Protoss has a s***load of counterunits. And I dont think any1 would prefer playing PvP at high level instead of TvP Mech ^.^
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^ with mutalisks you shut down harass pretty quickly.
Mutas aren't bad against thors - 24 mutas owns 6 thors pretty hard magic boxed. I think over half survive. Generally you don't have to make any banelings, and just go ling/bane until you can get broodlord/infestor/muta up.
With mutas you prevent the terran from getting that critical 2 base army that will kill you if you try to go broodlords or hive tech, and will kill you because your lack of it. If you aren't going to harass with mutas, harass with something, but I don't see how else you can harass against it. Terran will be forced to play 3 base in this situation, which allows you to get broodlords and have the macro advantage.
Siege tanks are the biggest problem, and roaches are just too supply inefficient and infestors can't handle them either.
Also with infestors to FG hellions, lings will tear through the army.
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On July 15 2011 20:42 Belial88 wrote: ^ with mutalisks you shut down harass pretty quickly.
Mutas aren't bad against thors - 24 mutas owns 6 thors pretty hard magic boxed. I think over half survive. Generally you don't have to make any banelings, and just go ling/bane until you can get broodlord/infestor/muta up.
With mutas you prevent the terran from getting that critical 2 base army that will kill you if you try to go broodlords or hive tech, and will kill you because your lack of it. If you aren't going to harass with mutas, harass with something, but I don't see how else you can harass against it. Terran will be forced to play 3 base in this situation, which allows you to get broodlords and have the macro advantage.
Siege tanks are the biggest problem, and roaches are just too supply inefficient and infestors can't handle them either.
Also with infestors to FG hellions, lings will tear through the army.
Yes Mutas are good at shutting down Harassment. But still arent Thors that bad against Mutalisks. If they magicbox you have to hit & run with the thors so the mutas have to reposition -> AoE -> Raining Blood ^.^ Though 24 Mutalisks are 2400 Gas and 6 Thors are 1200 Gas. So you have to build some more Thors if your Opponent goes Muta heavy. And you always bring some SCVs with your attack. This + Upgrade seal the deal.
And you cant rely on FG all your opponents Hellions. Especially if youre Opponent goes LingBling/Muta you Run some Hellions behind the Tankline.
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^ With hold position the mutas won't reposition. It just means the slow thors are not firing, and the fast mutas can just move over quickly.
I think the right response to someone making lots of mutas is to add marines, since magic boxing marines is horrid results for zerg. come to think of it, rine/tank is just a lot better...
I just think a lot of zerg don't know how to handle mech, and that mech has some very interesting timings that really abuse zerg, even one that is well prepared. A 2 base mech push needs broodlords, and it's kind of hard to do that, that in early in the game. I feel it's the other way around - Zerg needs to harass Terran or it's unstoppable.
nd you cant rely on FG all your opponents Hellions. Especially if youre Opponent goes LingBling/Muta you Run some Hellions behind the Tankline.
I don't think hellions are that problematic against mass ling with a surround instead of a-move. You say behind the tank line, well that's just it - the tanks are the real threat, just in any ZvT, not the hellions. In which case you need broodlords, and until then FG + lings or mutas can work.
It's all very timing based, but if Zerg can get a 4 base army going, they will beat it.
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MOD edit: Hijacking and advertising.
User was temp banned for this post.
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gtfo with your ad.
And this thread was about a reaper into bfh if you didn't notice, something that I'm not sure an other pro than GoOdy does.
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In order to play like Goody you must queue up at least 3 tanks at each factory.
Jokes aside, Goody is certainly not the only one using mech against Zerg and I don't really think he's the best one using mech either even if that's only what he does
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its not a damn ad, its legit advice
and your wrong on your 2nd point aswell, check the VileHashe on XC replay and The imbastrelok replay on Tal'darim.
both open with multiple reaper harass and I know that for sure
...... .....
want to know how I know? loaded the previous list of TvZ BF into tank thor and just went a little deeper.
so much for what you are or are not sure of
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On July 15 2011 23:23 Intricate1 wrote: its not a damn ad, its legit advice
and your wrong on your 2nd point aswell, check the VileHashe on XC replay and The imbastrelok replay on Tal'darim.
both open with multiple reaper harass and I know that for sure
...... .....
want to know how I know? loaded the previous list of TvZ BF into tank thor and just went a little deeper.
so much for what you are or are not sure of
It's an ad, you said yourself that you hijacked the thread. And i doubt that the top 1000 kor use your tool, hence they're at a disavantage tho ?
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Go back and read the last 10 posts before my "ad"
The entire discussion was theorizing different versions of TvZ Mech play, with everyone coming to different conclusions and no one providing a shred of actual gameplay to backup their thoughts.
I was interested in TvZ mechplay so I ran a search through my gears database and shared the replays.
If people want to dig into the different versions of whats possible they can now.
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On July 15 2011 23:40 Intricate1 wrote: Go back and read the last 10 posts before my "ad"
The entire discussion was theorizing different versions of TvZ Mech play, with everyone coming to different conclusions and no one providing a shred of actual gameplay to backup their thoughts.
I was interested in TvZ mechplay so I ran a search through my gears database and shared the replays.
If people want to dig into the different versions of whats possible they can now.
We are not discussing Mech play. We are discussing Goody's mech play.
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The game vs. IdrA convinced me that a lot of mutalisks is not the answer to this strategy. I don't think anyone can quibble with IdrA's muta control/use.
The game vs. Nestea on Shakuras I think illustrates the value of the fast BFH harass--by its absence. Nestea expands all over the map and techs to broodlords which proves to be the answer to a big mech push by GoOdy at around the same time.
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I always love to see a thread about someone whom I consider to be one of the greatest players ever. He takes a style, mech, and has taken it to a high level that not a lot of other players have. I don't think he gets enough credit for how great an achievement that is.
On to my point. I've been studying a lot of GoOdy's games lately and trying to unlock the key of what makes him so successful. I think it's been brushed upon but not fully mentioned yet, but the secret to his success is how well thought out and executed his RESPONSES are.
I watched that game vs. Idra where the mutas came in and he had no turrets up. As a Terran myself, when I find myself in that position it's usually a quick spiral into a gg from me. However GoOdy's reaction was smooth, he started some turrets, and he put his Thors in perfect position to chase away the attack. This may not be the best of examples, but my point is it's not that GoOdy uses mech well, or that his build orders are the secret, it's that he understands the roles of each unit very well, he knows the exact measures he needs to take to counter things, and he has amazing game sense.
I'm hoping as I learn more from watching his games that a little of that will rub off on me. But in my opinion right now there is no Terran that plays a more exciting game, and no Terran I would rather watch replays of than that of the Panzer General.
He's taken mech to a new level.
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On July 16 2011 00:08 ilovelings wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 23:40 Intricate1 wrote: Go back and read the last 10 posts before my "ad"
The entire discussion was theorizing different versions of TvZ Mech play, with everyone coming to different conclusions and no one providing a shred of actual gameplay to backup their thoughts.
I was interested in TvZ mechplay so I ran a search through my gears database and shared the replays.
If people want to dig into the different versions of whats possible they can now.
We are not discussing Mech play. We are discussing Goody's mech play.
.... whatever you gotta tell yourself
ESCGoOdy vs AiOsho on ESL Tal'darim Altar LE
a couple of the replays in question, both open Reaper harass into blueflame then tanks then thors with Infernal Pre-Igniter, the first tank , the first hellion and first thor all hitting within 1minute of the goody replay above.
xNJakeBake vs vileHasHe on Xel'Naga Caverns
imbaStrelok vs CNǃMoMaN on GSTL GSL Tal'Darim Altar
close enough?
The other replays which I provided before are variations of the build, which by understanding (Pay attention now this is where it gets tricky) allows you to employ whatever stlye of TvZ mech play you want to currently label "Goody mech play" Better.
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On July 15 2011 23:40 Intricate1 wrote:
The other replays which I provided before are variations of the build, which by understanding (Pay attention now this is where it gets tricky) allows you to employ whatever stlye of TvZ mech play you want to currently label "Goody mech play" Better.
Unnecessary, dude. Why all the hate? Someone found a style of play they like, or a player the think is fascinating, and you have to cloud the thread with this?
Your contirubutions are helpful, your delivery less so. Try not to take things so seriously, man. This is all about a game we all play to have fun. Why not lighten up a bit.
That said: Thanks for the replays. I know I personally will be taking a look at them when I get home from work. I appreciate it.
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Getting both Bio and Mech upgrades just slows down your push and makes the game a lot less easy for you. Sure MassMutaslisks arent a great deal if you do this, but Ling/Bling Infestor/x will be a lot more stronger against this style. You have no real meatshield, less splashdamage, you have to dump your gas into Medivacs, Upgrades etc and BF Hellions are a lot better at harassing, because it just gives your opponent a lot less time to react AND he cant really use Lings against it which means that he needs a lot more time to react/ a lot of Spinecrawlers. I dont see why this should be stronger at all.
You won't have a shortage of either minerals or gas because marines and hellions are both a good mineral sink.
You have thors to be your meet shield. I do not see how a ling bling infestor army can do well whenever there are tanks and hellions (or in this case, tanks and most likely marine/medivac doing splits). You can always outrange the infestors with your tanks, and also target key groups of banelings.
Well dropping marines can let you snipe hatches and tech, which hellions can't. You can't use lings against marines either, you can just pick up again. Hellions runbys can kill a lot of drones, but with medivacs you can save your marines and just keep your opponent scared.
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Goody does the initial harass better than others and thats why imo he makes an inferior unit composition work. I played against him once, I was expecting reaper into banshee, he did exactly that and I still lost to it. I think what you can really get from his play is the way he controls his first units. E.g. against me he ran around with reapers taking as many hit on the hatch as he could, so that he could fly in with 2 banshees and finish it later.
Mech itself is not that strong. Contrary to the common mantra i found the best way to deal with it is expanding slowly, spine up everywhere and mass up infestors with roach/hydra support. the hydras are actually pretty important.
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On July 16 2011 02:36 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +Getting both Bio and Mech upgrades just slows down your push and makes the game a lot less easy for you. Sure MassMutaslisks arent a great deal if you do this, but Ling/Bling Infestor/x will be a lot more stronger against this style. You have no real meatshield, less splashdamage, you have to dump your gas into Medivacs, Upgrades etc and BF Hellions are a lot better at harassing, because it just gives your opponent a lot less time to react AND he cant really use Lings against it which means that he needs a lot more time to react/ a lot of Spinecrawlers. I dont see why this should be stronger at all.
You won't have a shortage of either minerals or gas because marines and hellions are both a good mineral sink. You have thors to be your meet shield. I do not see how a ling bling infestor army can do well whenever there are tanks and hellions (or in this case, tanks and most likely marine/medivac doing splits). You can always outrange the infestors with your tanks, and also target key groups of banelings. Well dropping marines can let you snipe hatches and tech, which hellions can't. You can't use lings against marines either, you can just pick up again. Hellions runbys can kill a lot of drones, but with medivacs you can save your marines and just keep your opponent scared.
Nothing you said is wrong, and in the end it comes down to personal preference. I prefer hellions to protect my Thors from lings. I think they do a better job then marines, are less hurt by fungals, and can be repaired by the SCVs I already have with my mech ball. If I went marines I need to waste gas on medivacs, whereas the SCVs repairing the hellions save me gas, which leaves more gas for the mech army I'm trying to mass.
Again, if you like marines with your mech it's not wrong, it's just a different style, and with my play I think the hellions make more sense.
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On July 16 2011 02:43 dementrio wrote: Goody does the initial harass better than others and thats why imo he makes an inferior unit composition work. I played against him once, I was expecting reaper into banshee, he did exactly that and I still lost to it. I think what you can really get from his play is the way he controls his first units. E.g. against me he ran around with reapers taking as many hit on the hatch as he could, so that he could fly in with 2 banshees and finish it later.
Mech itself is not that strong. Contrary to the common mantra i found the best way to deal with it is expanding slowly, spine up everywhere and mass up infestors with roach/hydra support. the hydras are actually pretty important.
Why are the hydras important?
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Mech is ok versus Z, its still just not as effective as marine/tank tho. 3/3 marines counter every Z unit besides blings/infesot which gost/tank take care of. Mech has some serious problems with immobilty and anti air/NP and roach.
I wish mech would work vs Toss, I know goody does it versus Protoss to and gets some wins, but like other people said he seems to be just the oddball that people arent used to which helps him win.
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On July 16 2011 04:18 sick_transit wrote: Why are the hydras important?
they do a ton more damage than roaches, as they have more dps and more range (=more units shooting at once). Against mech the fact that they are slow doesn't matter and they have about the same durability as roaches - they take the same number of tank shots and hellions are outranged and die instantly. with about 10 neurals and a maxed 1:1 roach hydra army you can take a maxed mech army and come out ahead. that's why imo mech isn't that good, and overexpanding doesn't make sense (since you have the most cost effective army). Just play defensively and don't lose to harass.
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On July 15 2011 05:22 sick_transit wrote:
“Tanks and BF Hellions OWN Roaches and Lings” Very true, which is why I believe the circumstances of the engagement are important. The roaches need to take the siege shots to allow the lings to surround and the infestors to close for NP (or FG). I.e. the roaches need to go in a little ahead, which is the opposite of what happens if Z A-moves the whole army.
Roaches lose against tanks AND thors. Thors actually demolish roaches, no questions asked. This is even worse if you have unupgraded roaches, which is going to be the case against terran. Roaches have no place against a mech army, and against bio they also get stomped because of marauders. The conclusion is that roaches have absolutely no place in ZvT except to counter the first blueflame harass.
Lings suck against siege tanks, they suck against thors covered by blueflame helions, and they arent that good against thors to begin with. Its true that lings can kill thors efficiently while the numbers are low and the lings can get a good surround, but as soon as the numbers go up and the thors cant be surrounded anymore, the thors CAN annihilate all the lings without losing any thors whatsoever.
Fully upgraded thors vs fully upgraded lings means that lings will get 1 shotted by the thors while they only deal 4 damage per hit to the thors. Just to demonstrate how good thors actually are against lings: If you send 150 lings against 20 thors (both fully upgraded, and even with a full surround for the lings), all lings will die, while not a single thor dies. If you send 250 lings against 20 thors, only 4-7 thors die, depending on how good the surround was.
Go try it out in the unit tester, and dont try to counter with the argument that the unit tester isnt valid, in a real game you will never have a perfect surround because of chokes and ramps and siege tanks and blueflame helions covering your thors. Im just saying that lings, even under perfect circumstances (all upgrades and a perfect surround), dont stand a chance against thors on their own. 250 lings cost approximately the same amount of minerals that 20 thors cost
Lings are not a counter against masses of thors like goody is using them, even if you completely discount that there are blueflame helions and siegetanks AND chokes and whatnot. Ling/roach is completely screwed against mech, even if the zerg has perfect conditions.
The only thing that can battle mech (or thors in particular), are ultras, infestors, or broodlords. Any kind of unit composition that involves those stands a very good chance against mech. In actuality however, the mech timing (after blueflame harass) hits way earlier than zerg can tech switch to ultras or broodlords (after going for mutas or infestors initially).
As zerg cant really afford to tech to ultras or broodlords first (otherwise they just die to blueflame drop harass, or standard terran transition into bio with drops + siegetanks), they are stuck with getting mutas or infestors first in order to shut down that dropplay and then they are susceptible to the mech timing that goody showcased against idra, which in return looks unbeatable.
I honestly think blueflame drop harass opening with transition into thor/bfhelion/tank timing is much stronger than people are giving it credit for. It might even be a little overpowered in the current metagame where most zergs go for mutas or infestor first (because they want to shut down drop play). Neural can be good against thors, but if you dont have ultras or broodlords you cant really finish the army off and therefore only delay the inevitable.
I think the correct counter to blueflame helion harass with transition into thor/tank/helion, is to scout it very early and stop making mutas beyond the initial few as soon as possible. Now you proceed to tech to broodlors or ultras as soon as possible, get some infestors (neural is also a good thing to have) and some queens for transfusing those broodlords/ultras. If you keep building mutas you will die just like idra. If you go roach/ling/infestor you dont stand a chance at all (like i explained above).
The only other thing that could also work (which is a little controversial however), is going hydra infestor, but the positional disadvantage against siege tanks and the fact that hydras are very slow and therefore cant circumvent the tankline that efficiently makes this unit composition unfeasible.
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On July 16 2011 22:45 gh0un wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 05:22 sick_transit wrote:
“Tanks and BF Hellions OWN Roaches and Lings” Very true, which is why I believe the circumstances of the engagement are important. The roaches need to take the siege shots to allow the lings to surround and the infestors to close for NP (or FG). I.e. the roaches need to go in a little ahead, which is the opposite of what happens if Z A-moves the whole army. Roaches lose against tanks AND thors. Thors actually demolish roaches, no questions asked. This is even worse if you have unupgraded roaches, which is going to be the case against terran. Roaches have no place against a mech army, and against bio they also get stomped because of marauders. The conclusion is that roaches have absolutely no place in ZvT except to counter the first blueflame harass. Lings suck against siege tanks, they suck against thors covered by blueflame helions, and they arent that good against thors to begin with. Its true that lings can kill thors efficiently while the numbers are low and the lings can get a good surround, but as soon as the numbers go up and the thors cant be surrounded anymore, the thors CAN annihilate all the lings without losing any thors whatsoever. Fully upgraded thors vs fully upgraded lings means that lings will get 1 shotted by the thors while they only deal 4 damage per hit to the thors. Just to demonstrate how good thors actually are against lings: If you send 150 lings against 20 thors (both fully upgraded, and even with a full surround for the lings), all lings will die, while not a single thor dies. If you send 250 lings against 20 thors, only 4-7 thors die, depending on how good the surround was. Go try it out in the unit tester, and dont try to counter with the argument that the unit tester isnt valid, in a real game you will never have a perfect surround because of chokes and ramps and siege tanks and blueflame helions covering your thors. Im just saying that lings, even under perfect circumstances (all upgrades and a perfect surround), dont stand a chance against thors on their own. 250 lings cost approximately the same amount of minerals that 20 thors cost Lings are not a counter against masses of thors like goody is using them, even if you completely discount that there are blueflame helions and siegetanks AND chokes and whatnot. Ling/roach is completely screwed against mech, even if the zerg has perfect conditions. The only thing that can battle mech (or thors in particular), are ultras, infestors, or broodlords. Any kind of unit composition that involves those stands a very good chance against mech. In actuality however, the mech timing (after blueflame harass) hits way earlier than zerg can tech switch to ultras or broodlords (after going for mutas or infestors initially). As zerg cant really afford to tech to ultras or broodlords first (otherwise they just die to blueflame drop harass, or standard terran transition into bio with drops + siegetanks), they are stuck with getting mutas or infestors first in order to shut down that dropplay and then they are susceptible to the mech timing that goody showcased against idra, which in return looks unbeatable. I honestly think blueflame drop harass opening with transition into thor/bfhelion/tank timing is much stronger than people are giving it credit for. It might even be a little overpowered in the current metagame where most zergs go for mutas or infestor first (because they want to shut down drop play). Neural can be good against thors, but if you dont have ultras or broodlords you cant really finish the army off and therefore only delay the inevitable. I think the correct counter to blueflame helion harass with transition into thor/tank/helion, is to scout it very early and stop making mutas beyond the initial few as soon as possible. Now you proceed to tech to broodlors or ultras as soon as possible, get some infestors (neural is also a good thing to have) and some queens for transfusing those broodlords/ultras. If you keep building mutas you will die just like idra. If you go roach/ling/infestor you dont stand a chance at all (like i explained above). The only other thing that could also work (which is a little controversial however), is going hydra infestor, but the positional disadvantage against siege tanks and the fact that hydras are very slow and therefore cant circumvent the tankline that efficiently makes this unit composition unfeasible.
Stop giving people bad advice on playing vs mech. Roach/infestor has been a standard and effective response to mech for ages to the point that if Zerg does manage a maxed roach infestor ball vs lots of thors/tanks Terran eventually has to add in ghosts or cloaked banshees.
Roach/infestor and mass expoing into broods has always been one of the best options against mech.
Also, you're wrong, mass lings can work with mass mutas because if you get good surrounds and catch tanks unsieged (ideally) you have so many that the thors cannot be cost effective because mutas are being magic boxed and being shot 1 at a time while mass lings are putting in all of their DPS + tank splash.
A lot of times Z vs mech can be map dependent, roach/infestor or ling/muta/roach or faster techs will be more or less effective depending on the map. Also, late game multiple nydus worms are really, really good.
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On July 16 2011 22:59 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 22:45 gh0un wrote:On July 15 2011 05:22 sick_transit wrote:
“Tanks and BF Hellions OWN Roaches and Lings” Very true, which is why I believe the circumstances of the engagement are important. The roaches need to take the siege shots to allow the lings to surround and the infestors to close for NP (or FG). I.e. the roaches need to go in a little ahead, which is the opposite of what happens if Z A-moves the whole army. Roaches lose against tanks AND thors. Thors actually demolish roaches, no questions asked. This is even worse if you have unupgraded roaches, which is going to be the case against terran. Roaches have no place against a mech army, and against bio they also get stomped because of marauders. The conclusion is that roaches have absolutely no place in ZvT except to counter the first blueflame harass. Lings suck against siege tanks, they suck against thors covered by blueflame helions, and they arent that good against thors to begin with. Its true that lings can kill thors efficiently while the numbers are low and the lings can get a good surround, but as soon as the numbers go up and the thors cant be surrounded anymore, the thors CAN annihilate all the lings without losing any thors whatsoever. Fully upgraded thors vs fully upgraded lings means that lings will get 1 shotted by the thors while they only deal 4 damage per hit to the thors. Just to demonstrate how good thors actually are against lings: If you send 150 lings against 20 thors (both fully upgraded, and even with a full surround for the lings), all lings will die, while not a single thor dies. If you send 250 lings against 20 thors, only 4-7 thors die, depending on how good the surround was. Go try it out in the unit tester, and dont try to counter with the argument that the unit tester isnt valid, in a real game you will never have a perfect surround because of chokes and ramps and siege tanks and blueflame helions covering your thors. Im just saying that lings, even under perfect circumstances (all upgrades and a perfect surround), dont stand a chance against thors on their own. 250 lings cost approximately the same amount of minerals that 20 thors cost Lings are not a counter against masses of thors like goody is using them, even if you completely discount that there are blueflame helions and siegetanks AND chokes and whatnot. Ling/roach is completely screwed against mech, even if the zerg has perfect conditions. The only thing that can battle mech (or thors in particular), are ultras, infestors, or broodlords. Any kind of unit composition that involves those stands a very good chance against mech. In actuality however, the mech timing (after blueflame harass) hits way earlier than zerg can tech switch to ultras or broodlords (after going for mutas or infestors initially). As zerg cant really afford to tech to ultras or broodlords first (otherwise they just die to blueflame drop harass, or standard terran transition into bio with drops + siegetanks), they are stuck with getting mutas or infestors first in order to shut down that dropplay and then they are susceptible to the mech timing that goody showcased against idra, which in return looks unbeatable. I honestly think blueflame drop harass opening with transition into thor/bfhelion/tank timing is much stronger than people are giving it credit for. It might even be a little overpowered in the current metagame where most zergs go for mutas or infestor first (because they want to shut down drop play). Neural can be good against thors, but if you dont have ultras or broodlords you cant really finish the army off and therefore only delay the inevitable. I think the correct counter to blueflame helion harass with transition into thor/tank/helion, is to scout it very early and stop making mutas beyond the initial few as soon as possible. Now you proceed to tech to broodlors or ultras as soon as possible, get some infestors (neural is also a good thing to have) and some queens for transfusing those broodlords/ultras. If you keep building mutas you will die just like idra. If you go roach/ling/infestor you dont stand a chance at all (like i explained above). The only other thing that could also work (which is a little controversial however), is going hydra infestor, but the positional disadvantage against siege tanks and the fact that hydras are very slow and therefore cant circumvent the tankline that efficiently makes this unit composition unfeasible. Roach/infestor has been a standard and effective response to mech for ages
And thats why we almost never see any prozerg going for roach/infestor against tank/thor/helion. There are some cases where it works (and where it worked in a progame) but in those cases zerg had huge economical advantages and werent really harassed at all. Stop giving people bullshit roach as the answer versus mech.
Did you see the 2-2 timing on goodies mech? If you go for roach/ling/infestor, you dont have enough gas (or time) to upgrade both your roaches and your lings. If you dont upgrade your lings, they will deal no damage to the thors, if you dont upgrade your roaches, they will do significantly less damage to thors.
I will agree that ling/muta is very good against that kind of mech, especially if you catch tanks unsieged and the blueflame helions out of position, but thats too many ifs. Broodlord/ultra/infestor doesnt depend on the terran messing up his positioning, it will kill it either way. Btw ling/muta has absolutely nothing to do with roaches.
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i agree that lings are pretty much worthless vs mech, roaches are cheap cannon fodder for your real damage dealers - hydras and neural parasites. as long as you can neural the front line without losing infestors, which is not that hard to do, you can't lose. when the roaches die back off and replenish them.
If you open spire blindly and try to transition into infestors when your mutas scout mech you WILL be vulnerable for a window of time that depends on how much damage your mutas do. But even a couple neurals make a huge difference.
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. Roach/infestor has been a standard and effective response to mech for ages to the point that if Zerg does manage a maxed roach infestor ball vs lots of thors/tanks Terran eventually has to add in ghosts or cloaked banshees.
I think this only works at the lower levels of play where Terrans aren't quite as good at siege tank positioning. If Terran goes mech with a really heavy siege tank count - just the same as a Terran going rine/tank who has an extremely high tank count - roaches and infestors will melt.
Of course BL/Infestor is good, but on even bases, it's actually really bad.
I really think the only way to play against mech is ling/bling/muta to encourage more thors than siege tanks and to harass. Mutas are not bad at all against thors when you have a high count of them and are on 2+ bases above Terran, and will let you rush to broodlords and cracklings.
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On July 17 2011 05:04 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +. Roach/infestor has been a standard and effective response to mech for ages to the point that if Zerg does manage a maxed roach infestor ball vs lots of thors/tanks Terran eventually has to add in ghosts or cloaked banshees. I think this only works at the lower levels of play where Terrans aren't quite as good at siege tank positioning. If Terran goes mech with a really heavy siege tank count - just the same as a Terran going rine/tank who has an extremely high tank count - roaches and infestors will melt. Of course BL/Infestor is good, but on even bases, it's actually really bad. I really think the only way to play against mech is ling/bling/muta to encourage more thors than siege tanks and to harass. Mutas are not bad at all against thors when you have a high count of them and are on 2+ bases above Terran, and will let you rush to broodlords and cracklings.
I hope you know that avilo is a high level player with lots of experience in mech -_-. ling/bling/muta get's absolutely murdered once there's enough thors with scvs repairing and ~ 6 hellions
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Roaches and infestors get owned by mass siege tanks?
I only think roach/infestor works against mech that doesn't have enough siege tanks, and is heavier on thors or hellions. And of course Roach/Infestor/BL is great, because broodlords is the goal, which shuts down mech play, but mech will generally push before BL's are out (ie Goody does this a lot). Ling/bane/muta will own thor heavy mech compositions.
It's a delicate balance game for both players to have banes for SCVs, infestors for hellions, lings for thors, and mutas for tanks. You also have to keep your mutas alive, 6 mutas will rape a thor with most left alive, but 5 mutas and the thors will mostly survive.
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On July 17 2011 06:30 Belial88 wrote: Roaches and infestors get owned by mass siege tanks?
I only think roach/infestor works against mech that doesn't have enough siege tanks, and is heavier on thors or hellions. And of course Roach/Infestor/BL is great, because broodlords is the goal, which shuts down mech play, but mech will generally push before BL's are out (ie Goody does this a lot). Ling/bane/muta will own thor heavy mech compositions.
It's a delicate balance game for both players to have banes for SCVs, infestors for hellions, lings for thors, and mutas for tanks. You also have to keep your mutas alive, 6 mutas will rape a thor with most left alive, but 5 mutas and the thors will mostly survive.
you can't just say 6 mutas will rape a thor, because at some point even endless mutas won't be enough. THEY aren't useful anymore once there's like 9 thors.
tanks vs Infestor roach depends solely on positioning though.
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I think everyone would agree that T3 units (specifically broods) are the goal in terms of dealing with a mech composition. What makes this build hard to deal with is the push coming at 16:30. You can see this in the game against Nestea where he DOESN'T do this build--his push is stronger, but just a bit later, and Nestea has BLs and is able to clean it up. In all the games where he used this build his opponents never had BLs out by 16:30 and those are some pretty good players.
Is a viable response to this to fall back, turtle up and get BLs out by the 16:30 mark? I think you would need at least 4. Would you have the gas/larva for muta harass? To get infestors with NP out? In other words, what would you have to cut in terms of your core roach/infestor army to get there and is it even possible to do it safely?
To me that's the question.
Edit: I mean the Nestea game on Shakuras.
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So, I decided to answer my question using IdrA as a benchmark--assuming him to be the gold standard for Zerg macro.
Getting broodlords out takes 6:04 from the time lair starts. So as a matter of time it is doable to get them out by 16:00. (Lair start by 10:00.)
The tech plus corruptors plus broodlords costs 2100 gas (this also includes the infestation pit and "necessary" upgrades like pathogen, neural, roach speed but not attack or carapace upgrades).
IdrA mined 4248 gas. So after deducting the cost of the tech and broodlords that leaves 2100 gas for infestors and roaches. This isn't surprising. After all, IdrA did build 19 mutalisks. That seems like plenty of infestors and roaches.
I haven't analyzed the minerals side of it or taken into account the damage done by IdrA with his mutalisks.
Hm.
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I absolutely hate this kind of play and it's getting more standard on EU as far as my ladder encounters go.
I have been getting overlord drop and speed to counter this for 2 reasons: - you can drop and pin the terran in his base for a little while longer, delaying these really painful pushes
- when you lead your army with an overlord filled with something and drop-click it, it diverts a lot of the tankfire
My first idea was to load up all of my roaches and drop it on the terran army. My idea was based on the fact that without splash damage roaches would be decent vs siege tanks and that roaches already do fairly well vs thors. This does not work, the dropping goes to slow and your whole army gets shred to pieces before the last roach is out and does not get a chance to dps.
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you can't just say 6 mutas will rape a thor, because at some point even endless mutas won't be enough. THEY aren't useful anymore once there's like 9 thors.
Why do you say that? With magic box, it's fine. Given how much faster mutas more than thors, doing something like moving the thors during battle or spreading isn't helpful.
Is a viable response to this to fall back, turtle up and get BLs out by the 16:30 mark? I think you would need at least 4. Would you have the gas/larva for muta harass? To get infestors with NP out? In other words, what would you have to cut in terms of your core roach/infestor army to get there and is it even possible to do it safely?
The problem is identifying "Is Terran doing a 2 base mech push, or 3 base mech push?". If you watch, say, Goody vs Idra, Goddy always moves out when Idra starts morphing hive. If you identify a 3 base push and your wrong, or he decides just to move out while expanding, and you are trying to get BL's, you'll die. If you think it's 2 base, and then suddenly you see his third, you'll die because your BL's are too late.
If you can identify they are going for the lategame, then yes, you want to take a third and fourth ASAP and rush BL's. If they are going to do a mid-game push, you'll want to start pumping mutas and lings.
I really don't think Roach/Infestor is the answer. I've never seen a game where that worked. Roaches and infestors just get too smashed by siege tanks, and way too supply inefficient. If roaches were 1 supply it would work.
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On July 17 2011 06:30 Belial88 wrote: Roaches and infestors get owned by mass siege tanks?
I only think roach/infestor works against mech that doesn't have enough siege tanks, and is heavier on thors or hellions. And of course Roach/Infestor/BL is great, because broodlords is the goal, which shuts down mech play, but mech will generally push before BL's are out (ie Goody does this a lot). Ling/bane/muta will own thor heavy mech compositions.
It's a delicate balance game for both players to have banes for SCVs, infestors for hellions, lings for thors, and mutas for tanks. You also have to keep your mutas alive, 6 mutas will rape a thor with most left alive, but 5 mutas and the thors will mostly survive.
I dunno, if they have a lot of siege tanks, roaches go in and take the first volley and then you use NP+unsiege on tanks. Saw Nerchio do this against sixjax Major in IPL recently. Even if they kill the infestor almost immediately after the NP starts, some pretty important "damage" is done.
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On July 17 2011 11:41 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +you can't just say 6 mutas will rape a thor, because at some point even endless mutas won't be enough. THEY aren't useful anymore once there's like 9 thors. Why do you say that? With magic box, it's fine. Given how much faster mutas more than thors, doing something like moving the thors during battle or spreading isn't helpful. Show nested quote +Is a viable response to this to fall back, turtle up and get BLs out by the 16:30 mark? I think you would need at least 4. Would you have the gas/larva for muta harass? To get infestors with NP out? In other words, what would you have to cut in terms of your core roach/infestor army to get there and is it even possible to do it safely? The problem is identifying "Is Terran doing a 2 base mech push, or 3 base mech push?". If you watch, say, Goody vs Idra, Goddy always moves out when Idra starts morphing hive. If you identify a 3 base push and your wrong, or he decides just to move out while expanding, and you are trying to get BL's, you'll die. If you think it's 2 base, and then suddenly you see his third, you'll die because your BL's are too late. If you can identify they are going for the lategame, then yes, you want to take a third and fourth ASAP and rush BL's. If they are going to do a mid-game push, you'll want to start pumping mutas and lings. I really don't think Roach/Infestor is the answer. I've never seen a game where that worked. Roaches and infestors just get too smashed by siege tanks, and way too supply inefficient. If roaches were 1 supply it would work.
okay this is the last time I'll answer you:
My experience might not be good enough for you, but I had people go mass mass muta against my thor army, with magic box and they simply evaporate. The surface area of the thors gets to big for magic box to be effective, every muta shots at a different thor and they do almost no damage. At the same time you repair your thors, so they are almost unkillable. A pack of mutas is fine for harassment, but at some point they meching player can just k,ill you.
Infestors on the other hand are much more scary and if you have bad positioning np will wreck your army. The same with broods. Against that you need a bunch of ghosts and some lucky emps.
I suppose you watch any recent mech game, you will see that roach infestor is the way to go.
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The amount of people with no clue giving advice makes me sick.
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My experience might not be good enough for you, but I had people go mass mass muta against my thor army, with magic box and they simply evaporate. The surface area of the thors gets to big for magic box to be effective, every muta shots at a different thor and they do almost no damage. At the same time you repair your thors, so they are almost unkillable. A pack of mutas is fine for harassment, but at some point they meching player can just k,ill you.
At this point there should be broodlords and infestor support, right? You can't just instantly have mass thors, you have to be on 3 base for that, at which point Zerg will rush to broodlords when he sees it's not a 2 base mech. You're right, but mutas work for the midgame and harass to dely Terran until they can get Broodlords up.
Infestors on the other hand are much more scary and if you have bad positioning np will wreck your army. The same with broods. Against that you need a bunch of ghosts and some lucky emps.
Bad positioning will lose for Terran in any game or any style or against any composition. Once Broodlords are out, Zerg has a good chance to fight back against mech. It's the time before broodlords that really sucks for Zerg against mech.
I suppose you watch any recent mech game, you will see that roach infestor is the way to go.
Please link me to any replay where Zerg won going roach/infestor. The catz vs goody games? Because in the Nestea games, he had great success with ling/muta. From my experience and other games I've seen of it, Ling/Muta always is the best response until you can get those BLs. The only time roach/infestor really works is when Terran doesn't have enough siege tanks or gets caught way off position.
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I think muta-ling is a great response to mech, too. You want to use your mobility to do damage buy time for broods.
Another thing you can do, though, is play a hyper-aggressive roach style with burrow/move, nydus, or drops. Mech is pretty immobile so you need to abuse this as much as possible with multi-pronged aggression. And if you're going to sneak some units in his main at some point, don't be afraid to target upgrading armories! Sooo crucial to stay ahead in upgrades, arguably more important than killing workers.
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Mech play means forgoing bio units after the initial reaper and marine bunker, stop posting worthless generic marine tank thor replays. The thread is about making Goody's pure mech style work.
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Hey guys I have some ideas to help further this build.
- I'm thinking (and will try this out) that it is going to be key to get the turret upgraded armour/range in this build. Muta's are definitely the scariest thing when you are doing mech. If your thors are late or you have too few, you can just die. You need the Engi bay anyways, might as well get those upgrades. Anyone try this when going mech?
Also, for those of you who watch NASL, Puma did a very interesting BioMech play vs July (http://www.justin.tv/naslseasonone/b/289873816). Basically he opened with a standard reaper, expo, then BF hellion harass. Quickly got 3 factories (two TL and 1 reactor) pumping out tanks/hellions (July went roach so no muta threat). Once his natural was up and running he added a total of 3 rax to pump out rines. NO medivacs. Just some rines w/ stim. He focused on attack upgrades for both bio and mech. Later in the game he cut hellion production for rines. But, July was going mainly roach, so it may have been a situational adjustment vs heavy ling.
This build seems safer and more versatile. Puma destroyed July
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Here is a rep of me using against sksDhalism in the most recent ZOTAC cup.
I like the build as something to do every once in a while, but it is not safe and not something you should make standard in your play. It is definitely a high risk/high reward kind of deal.
(sc2ranks profile for proof of not silver, rep has at least a small amount of merit) http://sc2ranks.com/us/269668/vVvWaffles
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Roach infestor depends on positioning and micro. Roach infestor is no good against a well positioned siege line.
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On July 18 2011 16:12 bubblegumbo wrote: Mech play means forgoing bio units after the initial reaper and marine bunker, stop posting worthless generic marine tank thor replays. The thread is about making Goody's pure mech style work.
goody's style works already.the thing is that its having problems vs infestor+broodlords builds.
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