Layout downloads and install instructions are available at the same link on the bottom of this post.
Post Updates: - Download for HOTS Beta added at the bottom of the post, courtesy of Jo3M3tal - I've spent hours upon hours working with JaKaTaK, and we've created a far superior layout. It has all the strengths of DarkGrid, plus many more. Meet, TheCore.
There are 2 reasons to learn DarkGrid over TheCore: 1) You don't want to have to work as hard to adjust. TheCore is completely alien, at least this is a little bit more familiar? Fair enough. I personally think if you're going to relearn all your positioning anyway, might as well go the extra mile and get the HEAPS of benefits TheCore offers. You're not lazy, switching to DarkGrid takes a lot of work too, you're probably just afraid. Allow me to reassure you with sweet lulibies detailing TheCore's excellence....
2) You play on a laptop, you keyboard doesn't permit the core due to odd key placings, or your room is too small for you to slide the keyboard far enough to the left. This is a good reason to chose DarkGrid, if there's no other way you can use TheCore.
TheCore: Fast, More Ergonomic, More Efficient, Not that scary.
On December 21 2011 16:42 Amaterasu1234 wrote: I absolutely love 1.3!
For those you wanting to switch from standard to 1.3, I'd absolutely suggest you do so, but don't ladder. You'll just lose a ton. Instead, try using the multitasker custom to force you to use camera hotkeys and/or control groups. Or you could just do a ton of customs if you have practice partners available.
It took me ~3 weeks to switch from standard to 1.3, particularly after using standard since sc2 came out. Plenty of lost games on ladder, plenty of lost customs, and plenty of failed attempts at the multitasker custom. But, in the end, I'm glad I did it, as my control is better and easier, harassing is ez pz with ridiculously easily accessible control groups (r&v&g), upgrading is easier with a hotkey dedicated to tech structures. Not to mention the fact that soooo much is on 'f'...
On December 24 2011 05:32 Vilanoil wrote: Great job on 1.3!
I've tried it for some hours now and it feels really great. I just made up some few changes for my self like burrow and unborrow both on the same hotkey.
Well done!
On December 01 2011 07:58 ntvarify wrote: Just got used to most of the keys, and so far its great! I have tiny, tiny hands so the less movement is just 10 times easier. Awesome layout!
On January 04 2012 05:35 Tobberoth wrote: I have started working on getting the Pro Zerg one down now. It's very hard to get used to, but that's what I expected. Gotten past the "omfg, it's like i'm 5 years old" now and was at least able to beat a medium AI Won't touch laddering until I can reliably beat GTAI hard.
My impression so far: * Injection and basecams are actually wonderful. I'm forcing myself to use it (because it's the reason I wanted to try darkgrid) and I'm keeping my energy down, so it's working fine. I used to use the minimap to get between bases so this is great. * Using shift is quite annoying since you're keeping your pinky on q. I have to move my hand quite a bit on my Razer Blackwidow to get my pinky to shift. * Same as above, my blackwidow isn't too cool with keeping tumb on alt, you have to tilt your hand way too much. I'm keeping it on space and it's close enough to use it for the base cams, so it's still OK. * The massive setup for army... I can't even keep my whole army on T and my lings on R, so I will need a LOT of training to get this working. * Using mouse buttons, so hard. I like it and I will keep it, but man, so hard getting used to. * The setup time for each new base feels long... but I realize this is because it's not in muscle memory yet, and you only do it once per base so it doesn't even matter.
Overall, I feel it has a buttload of potential and I hope I can get used to it soon. While doing my opening felt impossible when I started, I almost feel like I pull it off better now since it's easier to jump between scout and main.
UPDATE: Played some more now, easily own Very Hard AI at this point.
Gotten used to much of the things mentioned above, here's my current issues: * (Based on an outdated Layout, new versions correct this issue)Using T for your whole army feels weird. Even with my finger on F constantly, it just feels very far. Again, probably just need more training. I especially find it hard to select new units and add to my army, shift+t feels VERY far. * Noticed something great about the camera keys: I keep my APM up. If I have nothing else to do, I've started just jumping around checking my bases. Somehow, this makes it feel like the game is moving slower, because you're keeping up with your inject progress better. * I can't believe I haven't used more control groups before. So easy to harass with muta when I have them all on V, and so easy to attack their front while they are hunting my mutas in the back. Won't be close to as easy against real players, but I didn't even use to do such things against AI.
On December 25 2011 16:00 Memchii wrote: Great layout! Thanks for making this.
Silver league player trying to switch to this before I get used to standard hotkeys. Still taking some getting used to, but the great thing is the layout semi-forces/teaches me to assign camera locations to things I normally don't bother looking at (XNWTs, Creep Tumors, any hatchery past 2 lol). I imagine my apm should sky rocket once I get used to this layout (apm currently around 50 with standard, will post back in a few weeks with an update).
Update: Since switching over and playing with it for a little less than a month my APM has indeed improved. Went from 50 APM to 100 APM no change in APM redundancy. My inject gap has taken a sharp decrease as well. Great thing is I've since been promoted to Gold! I'm still not utilizing the full hotkey spread of the layout though. My hands aren't fast enough yet for multiple unit control groups.
On December 21 2011 09:05 deathtrance wrote: This looks sexy. Time to learn this hotkey layout over the winter xDDD
On January 04 2012 19:12 KuBa wrote: I love the new layout, although I have not yet mastered it...But after all, I really like the layout, harassment is absolutely awesome with it, everything is so easily accessible and just perfectly thought out. Thanks a lot man, keep up the good work! <3
On January 04 2012 23:02 Ariion wrote: This layout will make me use camera hotkeys, yay! I wasn't able to force myself into using F1-F5, but here it's easily accessible Thanks!
On January 03 2012 19:55 Tobberoth wrote: If you have contact with master players using it, please let me know how they feel about it, it would definitely help me get on it.
I am a masters player that has used it longer than anyone else has...and I promise you...it is WAY easier than...well...everything else.
The inject method used by the Darkgrid is initially extremely weird. It takes some time to get accustomed to, but, once it's there, it feels faster than the backspace method. Unit ability control is also easier, considering it's all on 'f' and 'e'....
Is there anything specifically you'd like to ask? Or...just my general opinion?? If the latter...it's effing amazing, put simply.
On January 06 2012 10:00 Edso wrote: Giving this a try, feels pretty natural and fluid at first, alot better then blizzard setting. Kind of frustrating to rework my muscle memory, try to hit B for build but instead get zoomed back to my main x.x. Hopefully it wont take to long to get use this setting.
You don't have to manually create the layout, you can download the hotkeys File at the end of the post. Just put it in your hotkeys folder (instructions at bottom) and it's all there for you, premade.
Training Videos and improved documentation coming.
Terran Masters interview and layout explained
Zerg injecting and the layered camera controls:
Zerg Layout Explained
Protoss Layout Explained
My First take on the Protoss demonstration where I was feeling rather narcoleptic part Way through. (I will probably be remaking it, but it still does a decent job):
And the terran video, intended to be noob-friendly, but at this point I was more tired than I knew.
Other Layout Version (Including Printer Friendly): + Show Spoiler +
Terran Tabbed Production Printer Friendly:
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Other Layout Version (Including Printer Friendly): + Show Spoiler +
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] Other Layout Versions (Including Printer Friendly): + Show Spoiler +
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The layout shown for each race is the best one. The others are trying to make the best of a less-than-ideal situation, such as a player not having a mouse with buttons 4 and 5, or if they just can't switch from separate production hotkeying (such as having 1=gateway, 2=robo, and 3=starport) to tabbed production. Yes, these layouts are still a million times better than standard, grid, or any lightly modified layout, but they're not quite as awesome as the main ones.
Pro Tip: The printer friendly versions are easier to read at-a-glance, even on your computer. Production control groups have blue text, harass have red, and the key for your main army is bolded. Great for when you're first learning.
The mouse control groups are set to O and P. I have my mouse producing O and P when I hit my fourth and fifth mouse buttons. You can do this for most mice by downloading the manufacturer's drivers.
Or, you can rebind the O and P control groups to your mouse button in SCII. This has been the more buggy method, though.
If you just start playing ladder, you're probably going to end up crying into your keyboard. Start by playing a few games in a build-order tester (since it allows you to constantly restart without reloading), or, barring that, versus AI. Make sure to set and use your camera keys, first the base cameras and then the cams on 1 and 2. Both interview videos ask the masters players what helped them in training this layout, so make sure you watch them.
Now you're familiar with the hotkeys for the early game, but you have to start learning your control groups. It is strongly recommended that you use the control groups as shown, everything is based around their positioning. To practice the control groups, play some games against your lower league friends -- not too low, but the guys you're used to going 50/50 with will crush you until you've retrained your muscle memory. This way you have a chance of winning, but you also have a chance of losing. Don't forget to laugh at yourself! I find that taking 15 minute breaks every couple of games, or even a nap, really helps me learn. After a nights sleep, you'll often just wake up and everything will flow better. Use that to your advantage.
Whenever you're idling ingame, scroll through your base cams. Increased base management and awareness for the win.
Lategame army control needs dedicated practice, or you'll stay sloppy for waaaay longer than necessary. Get in a unit tester game with a buddy and just practice engaging with maxed armies. Do this until you're comfortable and your hands are doing what you want them to.
You're ready to ladder! Expect more losses for a little while as you remove the last of your old habits which tend to pop up under pressure, and DON"T BE LAZY, make sure you're setting all your control groups and cameras properly. Always. You're going through all this work, might as well get the best of it. And believe me (and everyone who's switched), it's worth it.
Becoming a Badass with camera keys. 1v1 your buddy and make six bases. Have him drop you at your main and natural. His goal isn't to kill your workers, just land his SCVs/Probes/Drones in the mineral line. Pretend they're banelings. Use your base cams to pull your workers when you see his drop comming. Practice macroing, such as making a ton of marines and suiciding them into his base (so you can keep macroing). When you stop losing your workers to his Baneling SCVs, add your third to the possibilities of drops. Keep adding basses until you've mastered pulling from all 6 bases using the camera keys, and then add simultaneous drops.
Now, imagine how awesome your drop response will be since you've done this. Not to mention your new map awareness!
This takes a good hour or two to train, so to keep your minerals from running out so fast, only have 8 workers at each base.
Seriously, you are now badass. Have you seen pros that can do this, let alone as fast?? Didn't think so.
Darkgrid 1.3 is tournament ready. At one point, 1.3 used thirdparty software to bind the mouse keys as Ctrl and Shift, but I decided then that this had to be tournament ready. While the third party software complied with Blizzard's TOS, tournaments probably wouldn't be okay with installing third party software aside from mouse drivers. Or at least it would cause complications.
[Zerg]I'm trying to use the awesome hotkey method that you made, but I still don't understand how to inject larvae.
If it's backspace method, the space bar is used for spellcasters. In your video you were like here just select queens and hit shift + e then cycle through
I hit shift e but once i inject one base it goes back to the normal thing and i have to hit e again. I can't hold shift + e down because I have to cycle through the bases using alt + q and alt + w and so on. holding shift + e doesn't allow my alt keys to work...
so how the heck do I inject larvae? i spent almost an hour trying different things but I can't seem to figure it out.
This is how it's done: Press and hold shift, press E, press and hold alt (while still holding shift), press Q, click mouse to inject, press W, click mouse to inject, Press D, click mouse to inject, release Alt and Shift.
The hotkey file is designed to register ALT+SHIFT as a camera recall command, so it should allow your alt keys to work. If it does not, I can only think that it is an issue with your keyboard, perhaps try it on another.
Sorry it's been such a challenge, I'll make a more clear video in the future!
[Terran] Why is barracks and the factory separate from the starports?
The building layouts are designed to be flexible. For most it would be easier on one key, but for pros, having to tab twice to start producing vikings to counter Colossus or broodlords is unintuitive, and so the starport (with it's techlabs) are placed on a separate key. In the early game the, the factory and barracks can be separate as well, but it's not necessary.
Layout Benifits at-a-Glance -Every control group and camera key are within Reach. -Control groups and abilities keys are arranged so selecting and activating abilities has a Natural Flow. -Minimal hand movement required to execute almost every Action. -Workload spread across fingers (with the pinkie given somewhat Less work) to reduce strain and allow for longer gaming sessions. -Finger alternation design increases execution Speed of almost every task in SC2.
There is no doubt in my mind that this layout is far superior to Standard, Grid, or any lightly modified layout.
ALL RACES -Use your thumb on the aLt key, instead of using the Ctrl key, to set most control groups. It's a much easier Reach with little hand movement.
-The keys with thick Black boarders in the diagrams are where you rest your fingers. Tip your hand in an an angle, just a little bit (making sure you can still Reach shift with your pinkie easily), and place your figners on AWEF.
-It's very easy to toggle back and forth between the R and V control groups and still IsSuE commands. Ideal for two-pronged aTtacK.
-All the production building are place on ONE key because of a "production cycle" system I use. Every time you go to create any unit, you don't just make that unit, you execute a production cycle. For terran, if you think "I need more tanks", you don't hit the factory hotkey and and make tanks. I find this makes me tend to forget about the other units. Instead, you hit the production hotkey. It brings up the baracks First, Which makes me ask: "What Bio should I build?". Order Bio and tab. "What Mech?" Order and tab. "What air?" Order and done.
In this Way, every time you think to produce a unit, ONE is reminded to use all the production facilities. It turns a narrow thought ("I need tanks") Into a larger thought, considering everything you need. Of course, "none" can be an Answer for any ONE of those, but the fact that I was reminded to consider it and chose not to is critical, rather than just missing it because of poor multitask. In this Way, it Actually reduces EffOrt.
-If you place your main army across 4, T, and G as it is recommended, you can tap 4TG and spam move-click to easily move the army across the map. This simulates having ONE control group, but, once you're in battle or nearing it, you have three independent groups to micro much more effectively.
-Alt can be used to set every camera key, making it Less of a stretch. Ctrl still works, though.
-When setting up mouse hotkeys, I've found it slower to assign control groups that require mouse Action once assigned. That's why I've put Production and Tech as the groups to be assigned to the mouse; they require use of the keyboard after selection, not of the mouse, and you don't need to double click them either (something I've also found slower on a mouse). That's the same ReasoN why camera keys aren't on there.
ADJUSTING TO A New LAYOUT -When switching to a New layout, make sure you have"Menu>Options>Gameplay>Command Hotkey Text" enabled. It makes Life a lot easier.
-The camera keys Really are helpful. At the Start of the game while you're making workers and picking your nose, set the camera keys up over the Xel'Naga towers various Mineral lines. Make sure your setups are consistent though. This can shave Precious moments off your ReSpOnSe time to dodge baneling bombs on your worker Line, etc.
-Play in a build order TesteR until you get a feel for the basics of the New layout. Practice army movement and ability use. Since almost everything is on QWEF for buildings, it doesn't take long to get used to it. Generally speaking, the most used or first-needed upgrades are placed on F. When in doubt, smash that key XD.
-Speaking of build order testers, Practice your camera use while in there. Imagine you see an Enemy drop at your 3rd. Use the camera key see your workers and run them away. Do this enough times and it will become second nature. Like greased lightening.
-And most of all, keep the End sight in mind! It's a Pain to switch, but, let me be Frank: you hardly move your hand when macroing. There's NO travel time. Even micro has minimal hand movement: the keys are just right under your fingers. Good luck, go tear 'em up!
-If you're pinkie is extra SMall (like doesn't Reach the last knuckle), you may WanT to move the commands on Q to A, as Zombie Denden did below.
TERRAN -When playing as terran and doing a Bio, tank, medivac PuSh, you can place your tanks and medivacs on ONE key. Make sure to tab (space bar now) so the tanks have selection priority, and then press ctrl T. Next time you SeleCT, the tanks will be First selected, reay, to SieGe. Once sieged and pushing the Enemy base, you can simply right click your T group to order your medivacs over your Bio. Since the tanks are sieged, they won't move. Since your Bio and medivacs are on separate control groups, you can heal while you stutter step. And when it's time to move out, you Only have to tap between two hotkeys to order them about.
-Terran-Only players may WanT to put "lift-off" on Y where Warpgate currently is, instead of 7. Put's it just a little closer in Reach.
Protoss -As Protoss, make sure to set the camera key 6 over your proxy pylon. Then, you can just tap 6Y with your middle and pointer fingers. That centers you over the pylon and selects your warpgates in ONE super-fast motion.
ZERG -Zerg players, make sure to use ONE of the keys designated "harass" as a mid-game defence force. Don't get caught looking like an idiot sending your army to defend ONE corner of the map, just as he's planning a drop on the opposite Side *cringe*.
-I'M placing my Queens on 3. To fast-inject, press Shift (pinkie), 3 (middle), E (pointer), Space Bar (thumb). Then just spacebar-click through your hatches.
Unit Production: W is to SeleCT Larva. Think of it like this "WanT X". Like "W-ant W-orker (WW)" produces a drone. -W-ant F-ighter (WF) for zerglings. -W-ant A-nti air for Hydralisks -W-ant E-normous Fatty! (WE for overlords. I mean, come on, those guys are pretty hefty... ;p) -W-ant S-pire unit for Mutalisk -W-ant C-orruptor
Infestor and Ultra are a bit different. Infestors are Extreme, so you WanT an Extreme unit? Okay, "W-ant X-treme", ha ha ha. Ultras are usually a game ender, like Z is the End of the alphabet (work with me Here). So you WanT the game ender, WZ.
Roaches are on Q. Yeah... I got nothing. At least they're easy to Reach without moving your hand!
Building F is for basic buildings. So, think "Form", like "F-orm S-pawning pool", FS for a spawning pool. -F-orm D-evelopment for an evolution chamber (you're developing your units) -F-orm spin-E (FE, think spiny, that E Sound at the End) for spinecrawler. -F-orm A-nti air for Spore Crawler -F-orm C-rash Nest for a baneling nest (lol, they do crash Into marines)
Again we have a few that are different. Roach warren is FF, just like BarrackS, just like Gateway. Don't know if that helps. Extractors are on W, and hatches are on Q. They are placed there for how often they're used -- after all, you Only get 1-2 spawning pools in a game, but you might get 10 gasses, so they're in easy Reach. Those you just have to memorize through use, but it doesn't take long.
Advanced Building D is for advanced buildings. Think of it as "Develop", cus this is some pretty advanced crap we're throwin' down! (That ONE thanks to Zombie Denden). D-evelop S-pire D-evelop A-nus (for Nydus Worm. You'll Never see that structure the same.)
Hydras are DF like Roaches are FF. I see those units as related, so that helps me. Ultras are DD (uh... they're "huge"?), infestation Pit is on Q. Yeah, got nothing there either.
Research Pretty much everything is on F, E, or D. Make sure you have the hotkey command text enable, and then just glance to it. You can think mElee, since E is for that, and Firing for range, since F is that. W is for armor... think Wall. It's their skin wall.
Same thing for your air ups, F for Fire and W for wall, but E E-volves the Spire too a Greater Spire.
Abilities Queen: F for transFuse, D for Dookie (like poop for laying creep tumors, second grade humor ftw), E for injEct (a Super convenient location for the ability). Overseer: C for C-hangeling, D for D-isgusting contaminateion. Infestor: F for Fungal, D for infesteD terran (or Drones, like a mindless slave, not like the worker drone), and E for nEural parasite. Corruptors: D for morph to brooD (lorD), E for Ew (corruption), cus its also gross. I <3 zerg. Baneling: E for Explode, D for Destroy building.
C is for burrow, Z is for unborrow, (C is for Cloak, Z is for "End cloak"). You just have to memorize that ONE. It is the zerg cloak, so that should heLp ^_^. Go get 'em, Tiger!
Protoss Unit Production Units are placed based on their average frequency of use, the more frequent ones in more convenient positions.
Gateway: -Stalker: F -Zealot: W -Sentry: E (same as Standard) -High Templar: Q - Dark Templar: D
As you can see, every gateway unit rest right under the fingers, or on the easiest button to Reach.
Robotics: -Immortal: F (It's like a stalker, so that can heLp you Remember since they share the same key) -Colossus: C (same as Standard) -Observer: W -Warp Prism: E
An alternate layout you can use if you WanT maximum effeciency by moving Colossus off of C and putting it right under the fingers: -Immortal: F -Colossus: E -Observer: W -Warp Prism: Q
Stargate: -Phoenix: F (Think "Fighter" or Foenix phonetically) -Void Ray: W (Think of its warping aTtacK) -Carrier: E (Think "Enormous Ship")
Nexus: -Probe: W (think Worker) -Mothership: E (Think "Enormous Ship") -Chronoboost: F (thinks "Faster!" Like you're shouting it at the building you're boosting. Imagining whipping your buildings optional.)
Building F is for basic buildings. So, think "Form", like "F-orm C-annon", FC. -F-orm D-evelopment for a Forge -F-orm C-annon) -F-orm A-dvanced tech for Cybercore (Allows you to get advanced buildings, see?)
Advanced Building D is for advanced buildings. Think of it as "Develop", cus this is some pretty advanced crap we're throwin' down! (That ONE thanks to Zombie Denden).
Research F is for Fire, aka weapons. W is armor, think "wall". E is for Shield.
For a Cybercore, E is for gatE (Warpgate Reasearch), Q is for hallucination (Less used abilities are often placed on Q).
For other research, it's all either of F or E.
Abilities Most frequently used abilities are on F, everything else is on D or E.
Other races coming soon
1.3 Layout Downloads Place the files in Documents>Starcraft 2>Accounts>123456>Hotkeys. They should become available in the hotkey menus ingame.
Mac users:
The hotkey file does work for mac. To find it, make a custom hotkey thing first and save it, and that will show the hotkey file close to your replay file thing. eg user - app support - blizzard - sc2 - numbers ect.
Basically after you create your own custom hotkey the folder will show up and you can drag the file into there, then select it in sc2
This looks good, but unfortunately I use standard hotkeys
And when I try to hit ZQ fast I use my ring finger to hit Z, as it is the standard way of hitting it when typing anyway, and use my pinky to hit Q. What I also like to do is tilt my keyboard 15 or so degrees counter-clockwise to more naturally reach some of the keys further down the keyboard, such as the 6 button.
I see how this would help random players, but I didn't know about grid when I played random so I just ended up memorizing three times the hotkeys as everyone else -_______-
But in general good guide, very useful for players who don't spend lots of time memorizing hotkeys.
Thanks for the reply, hipster! *Giggle*, my first major contribution thread, I'm enjoying the silly appreciation of a reply ^_^
ANYWAY... I don't know if its the fact that I have fat hands (their span isn't that long, but they are fatties) or what, but even that ZQ stroke method is reaaaly awkward, I feel like I'm going to miss a key or something if I do it fast. Still, might be better than thumb-ring stroke that I currently use.
I'd like to make a sick layout for Standard players, but that would require making 3 >.<. I might make a layout that's like grid, but compressed (s, d, f, and a couple others are not used very often) that allows even shorter reaches, places all the powers in a more natural position, and allows more letter-bound control groups. Not sure though, this layout does everything I currently need with less work to switch. The optimization would probably only be noticable at the Grandmaster level, which I am not!
This seems really effective, although I'm a little confused about what you do about quickly injecting your hatches when you get up to a large amount if bases.
And I dont understand camera locking. Unneded, IMO, more hotkeys, that can waste your APM. Is it that hard to move cross the map using scroll-wheel holding? Or finally use clicks on the minimap? Im from C&C and here was always scroll-wheel or right-click holding camera moving.
Thanks for the help, troy. Layout file link is now available near the bottom of the post.
Hope it works awesome, iChau!
That's a pretty cool image you have there, Existor. Looks like a good improvement over grid, too. Unfortunately, I have to hold a [fn] key in order to press my F keys. Still, it looks like (for keyboards with F keys so close to the standard keys) moving up is a significant improvement.
Anyone who has those keyboards might consider rearraing the Darkgrid layout in a sort of hybrid setup, I believe it would be superior. For those where the function keys are further away, or those in a situation like mine, I feel Darkgrid still offers some enhancements beyond existor's setupt (more control groups within reach, camera hotkeys, taking the load off the pinkie [or, depending on your keystroke method, using more fingers simultaneously]). In any case, both are much better than standard Grid.
Also, I find injects to be pretty comfortable: shift(pinkie) X(middle finger) space(thumb) almost mimics the motion one makes when thrumming their hands on the table. It does require the most hand rotation of any action in this setup (about 15 degrees) to execute, though. (Still so little compared to many of standard Grid's actions).
As for camera keys, they are very helpful. Not as significant as a control group, but they allow faster responses to activity at the watch towers, your ramp, or mineral lines. They are not necessary -- even control groups aren't, after all, TLO played pro for a long time with no more than 2 control groups -- but they do make you more efficient and are a good habit to get into. I've found it takes specific training, though, such as having a friend move enemies into vision and I practice using the camera hotkey to perform a worker pull (across 3 different bases).
When you say "more hotkeys that can waste your APM", are you refering to the camera hotkeys or unit control groups?
Rebind Scroll-Wheel Down on your mouse to a certain key and make that key an alternative hotkey for your main army control group.
To me it feels really natural to switch over to my main army with a quick flick down on the scroll wheel.
Also, To me clicking on the Mini-Map is mechanically similar to using "0" as a control group on the keyboard in terms of what it does to the flow of my mechanics (as opposed to Camera recall hotkeys), Plus Existor I'm interested to know the process you go through when returning a building to your main line after building at your ramp etc?
When you say "more hotkeys that can waste your APM", are you refering to the camera hotkeys or unit control groups?
Hotkeys with camera position lock. I think, it's not that need. Scroll-wheel move and clicks on minimap is enought for me. Last Alert helps sometimes too.
Plus Existor I'm interested to know the process you go through when returning a building to your main line after building at your ramp etc?
I don't play terrans/protosses. Zerg is my only and favourite race. Also, I've always jumping throught my base with scroll-wheel, and injections to multiple hatcheries lasts for me 1-2 seconds. all other time is enought to look at other battlefield locations.
And I like default Grid more, than any new or old hotkey scheme. Because I've played a lot in C&C games, where we had always hotkeys for every button on UI, but not special hotkey for separate units. So Grid is C&C style, that I like more, than hokeys for every unit/ability/building/etc, and it's very comfort to press. Dawn of War 2 got Grid hotkey scheme too, very comfort to control army too.
Intricate1 is right, this is designed for an angled hand on the keyboard with the blade of the palm resting right below the ctrl key, pinkie resting on a. All you do is somewhat straighten your fingers and they naturally land on 4,T,G.
EDIT: v1.1 changes the finger rest position. Details in the "Tips" section.
Foxy. Firstly thank you for putting together something like this. I tried it out and found that it was much easier to adapt to than the change from basic to grid. Of course i'm still having teething problems but i've only played a handful of games with it.
I did make a few changes to suit my style better. Specifically i changed morph building menus' hotkeys (yes double plural) to put the buildings i use most on the easiest to reach keys, eg. infestation pit is on the sacred 'f' key. I also think i changed the spine crawler to f and the spore crawler to c so that they are easily accessible as they are my most build buildings. I think i also changed the build another creep tumor from this creep tumor to f. Well ... i actually put as much as possible on f it seems, but i guess this was part of the point of this hotkey build.
I was intending on making my own setup from your setup but i found that almost all the keys you ad chosen (excluding the above) we exactly where i wanted to put them so at that point i realised that this setup was for me (and that i wasnt making my own setup but rather tweaking yours for myself.
one last thought though. I found that the q key it no good for me . I have rather short pinkies and so i shuffled a couple of things from Q to A. Especially roaches which i tend to build a lot of.
All in all this is a great setup as far as i'm concerned and thank you for the great work.
Very nice! I'm always looking for ways to make it easier. With Zerg buildings I tried to make the transition from standard to Optimus easier by retaining the original build keys because, generally speaking, you're only going to build one or two of them the entire game. I think moving spine and spore to A and C a good call.
Where did you place the baneling nest? Did you move transfuse to D and tumor on F?
To be honest, I placed some of the lower frequency tasks not on F (though only a few) in order to spread out the wear and tear. I mean, I'm gunna be smashing that thing thousands of times in a game, ha ha. That's partly why tumor was on D (still an easy key to reach) and transfuse on F. But maybe I should abandon that "spread the wear" idea out entirely ^^.
I'm going to be writing a set of mnemonics to help people transition, so I'd like to get all these minor changes hammered down. Ideally I can get 3 masters players to switch, one from each race, put them in a skype call, and record them playing 3v3s. I think it would be hilarious and help people swith, since I'll and they will be calling out all the memnonics (like "W-ant W-orker" for building a drone and "W-ant F-ighters" for building lings).
EDIT: Since you're pinkie is not resting on Q, you'll want to change the attack from Q to A.
I put the baneling nest on X but i didnt move transfuse and spawn tumor on the queen, I decided that transfuse is a heat of the moment key and so should be on Fantastic Mr 'F' and that i usually spam tumors when i plant them from queen so d, shift+spam is fine for me. It works that same as my larva inject
i did put the queens and the hatcheries on my extra mouse buttons and im undecided about the result. I have noticed some really terrible inject work so this may not be the best solution for me regarding that
On August 22 2011 07:49 Existor wrote: And I dont understand camera locking. Unneded, IMO, more hotkeys, that can waste your APM. Is it that hard to move cross the map using scroll-wheel holding? Or finally use clicks on the minimap? Im from C&C and here was always scroll-wheel or right-click holding camera moving.
Camera locking is very very critical for me (and it improved my game by a lot when I first started using it).
Minimap clicking is slower by quite a bit. Take the time to move your mouse and click just the right place on the minimap, then adding it to your natural attention delay, it just adds up and it's clumsy on top. Why use a mouse precision task when you don't absolutely need to? Keyboard is far more efficient when you memorize the control scheme.
Any kind of scrolling that isn't just an inch or so of the screen (like from main to natural on some maps, or a very nearby battle) is a complete waste of time imo.
Several minor enhancements (mainly to protoss, with small tweaks to Zerg and Terran) have been integrated. First mnemonics section added to the OP. Layout diagrams updated to have consistent labeling and reflect the new changes. Yay!
Would a mod kindly change the title to "[G] Optimus Advanced Keyboard Layout" to reflect the new content ^_^
In this layout Burrow has separate hotkeys. This is helpful to prevent mis-control. Burrow is C and Unburrow is Z (may help to remember them as a Zerg Cloak, C for Cloak and "end cloak", Z, like the end of the alphabet).
Hatcheries belong on the Production hotkey, since it is Zerg production. Queen belong on the CC/Nexus hotkey. This has to do with the reaches from the control group to the hotkeys being smoother in this layout, and frequency of use.
Wait, what? It is good for lefties? I fear it would give too much work to your pinkie and ring, causing fatigue. I guess setting control groups would be super easy, though.
This is cool. I'm going to try to incorporate it, but I'd prefer to move a few things around. Do you happen to have a source or could you upload a blank template so I could fill in my own binds?
Here are some of my proposed changes, I'm curious to know what you think:
1) Put hold position on S, and get rid of stop completely 2) Make W a control group: I prefer to put my Queens on W. It works really well for shift-spacebar injecting when inject is bound to E (as you have it). 3) Maybe switching F and R since a finger is always on R. 4) Putting some control groups on 123 to bind individual hatcheries and/or queens. I prefer this to camera hotkeys because then you can set individual rerallies if needed and use them to move queens around quickly for voidray/banshee harass, etc..
Overall a great layout I think and if I'm able to make the switch after so long I think my game will be improved for it. If you have the blank keyboard image template (couldn't find anything quite as nice with a quick google) please upload! I'd love to fill one out with my changes and keep it on the second monitor as I'm learning).
Those are some interesting ideas. You can edit the original image file with a vector editing program, such as Ink Scape (free, the one I use, quite good). I will upload the image file later, maybe remind me, it's really late here I might forget.
1) I use hold a lot for muta harass (stop would allow them to engange the chasing marines, instead of targeting the workers below). If you never use it, perhaps it is better to replace it with a control grou. 2) I have my queens on my mouse, but for keyboard only layouts not using hold-possition, it could be superior. 3) If you're finger is resting on R you're not using the layout as designed. It was designed with the user placing the blade of his palm near Ctrl, turned slightly inward (10-30degrees), with fingers resting on QWEF as indicated in the diagram. If you don't use this, reaching C, V, and B are much more difficult, thus reducing the effectiveness of the design. 4) All 10 hotkeys are already used, in order to move control groups on to 1 and 2 (3 is already a control group) you would have to remove them from V, T, or 5. V, T, and 5 are easier to reach than 1 and 2 with the tilted hand position described, and assigned the greater task of control group selection and camera focusing (doubletapping the control group) on the stronger fingers. You could use C, V, R, T, 3, and 5 for hatchery hotkeys if you only want 3 for army (though R and V really are excellent for harass units, due to the ease of toggling between them).
Basically, over all, if you're hand is not place on the keyboard as the layout requires, your adjustments do improve upon the design. But, if you're using the correct positioning, the harder tasks are assigned to stronger fingers, unlike having 1 and 2 as control groups. If you never use Hold possition, and never plan to, using W or S as a control group would be better. I suggest moving 5 there, as it is the hardest to reach when using the correct hand angle.
Good thoughts, man, thanks for posting a thoughtful reply! <3
On August 29 2011 17:57 FoxyMayhem wrote: Those are some interesting ideas. You can edit the original image file with a vector editing program, such as Ink Scape (free, the one I use, quite good). I will upload the image file later, maybe remind me, it's really late here I might forget.
1) I use hold a lot for muta harass (stop would allow them to engange the chasing marines, instead of targeting the workers below). If you never use it, perhaps it is better to replace it with a control grou. 2) I have my queens on my mouse, but for keyboard only layouts not using hold-possition, it could be superior. 3) If you're finger is resting on R you're not using the layout as designed. It was designed with the user placing the blade of his palm near Ctrl, turned slightly inward (10-30degrees), with fingers resting on QWEF as indicated in the diagram. If you don't use this, reaching C, V, and B are much more difficult, thus reducing the effectiveness of the design. 4) All 10 hotkeys are already used, in order to move control groups on to 1 and 2 (3 is already a control group) you would have to remove them from V, T, or 5. V, T, and 5 are easier to reach than 1 and 2 with the tilted hand position described, and assigned the greater task of control group selection and camera focusing (doubletapping the control group) on the stronger fingers. You could use C, V, R, T, 3, and 5 for hatchery hotkeys if you only want 3 for army (though R and V really are excellent for harass units, due to the ease of toggling between them).
Basically, over all, if you're hand is not place on the keyboard as the layout requires, your adjustments do improve upon the design. But, if you're using the correct positioning, the harder tasks are assigned to stronger fingers, unlike having 1 and 2 as control groups. If you never use Hold possition, and never plan to, using W or S as a control group would be better. I suggest moving 5 there, as it is the hardest to reach when using the correct hand angle.
Good thoughts, man, thanks for posting a thoughtful reply! <3
Thanks! You're right I typo'd and meant to say swap F and R because the finger is always on F. I think slightly faster access to production would be preferable than ability 1.
Also, I was thinking about getting rid of stop and putting hold position on S. I definitely use hold position frequently like you, but are there situations where stop is preferable to hold position?
You're totally right about V and T. I guess I'm just so used to spamming 34343434 or 454545 that it feels somehow naked without them. Just one more thing to adjust to, I suppose!
Hm, I guess having F as a control group will come down to a preference thing. For stuff like Blink, EMP, and Fungal I want to have the fastest access I can. But, you may desire faster access to production or whatever else (I have production on my mouse, right under where my thumb rests, so it's not a choice I'm challenged with : P ). Before I used my mouse I put production on 5, because using V and R for dual pronged harass is amazing, assuming ability 1 is on F (blink, stim, etc). F V still could be very good, but they don't feel as comfortable to me. In any case, the difference is pretty small, so do what feels best here.
I think of stop being used in two main situations that I use: 1) Marine Stutter Step (much smoother to use stop and move than attack move-click and move, or hold and move, which prevents your units in the back from engaging the enemy once you look away without canceling the hold orders). 2) The stop-idle worker split:
That is incredibly good vs banelings and mass BF-hellions. You can use the other methods of stutter stepping and manually worker split, though, if you do want to move your control groups closer.
Ha ha, it is a lot to adjust to. Take the new control group layout in phases, I know I have to. Right now I only use 3 cameras and I hardly use them, but I'm working on integrating the other ones, and I'm figuring out where I place my scouts and lings and whatnot. I have to adapt from going 3-4 control groups for army to having 6. For the cameras I intend to play a custom with a friend where I take all the bases on my side, and he moved medivacs over the worker lines. I have to pull before he gets over them (to simulate dodging stuff like bane drops). Just play that for an hour and it's amazing how much that helps. Don't forget you probably want your primary army on 4TG so you can tap and move spam them to move out.
I use a modified grid layout as well, but I use 1 for all hatches, 2 for all queens, 3 for inject larva, 4 for base cam. so i can just hit, 234 click, 234click to inject really fast, as it is my most used hotkey progression, it makes sense to me to make it really easy. Then 5 -> are army, f3+ f4 replaces 3 + 4 and i use those for upgrades. the other F keys add to the corresponding control group. So rather than shift 5, i just press f5 to add to army. etc etc. still working on the kinks, but it serves me well.
Do you think it's worth switching to this layout after all the time? i have small hands so i'm intrigued at being able to reach some more control groups quickly, but i don't know if it's worth it. How long do you think it will take to get used to?
anyway, instead of having the mouse buttons as production and tech, have you thought about maybe having it for tab and shift+tab to switch between units in-battle? it's what i use if im in a position where i cant very easily click the unit for any reason.
@Samtastic In order to get used to using most of the control groups and the new hotkey layout, it has taken me about 24-28 games. Using a build order tester to practice the new layout helps that along. I'm still adjusting to the way the late-game units are set up, but that's because not all of those 24-28 games got to the late games.
I really, really do think it's worth it though, especially if you have small hands.
@The Killers: Ha ha ha, QQ indeed.
Since all 10 control groups are within easy reach, it's faster to hit 4,T, V, G or B to select your other units, instead of having to hit tab however many times. Also, you want to split your tasks across your hands: if you select units, you're going to be using the mouse to command them most of the time. So, naturally, you want to select with your keyboard hand so that your mouse hand can be ready with no interference to execute the next orders.
The reverse is true, as well. When you're selecting structures you're most often (almost always) going to be using the keyboard hand next to produce units. So, since the mouse hand isn't going to be immediately engaged, using it for selection allows your keyboard hand to already be striking the keys to produce immediately after selection.
That's why I recommend placing production on the mouse (and currently I have my hatch/CC/Nexus on the mouse as well. It's working very nicely, I may want to update the layout.) That said, it probably doesn't make that huge of difference -- I mean, this part of it only make a difference if both players are almost exactly equal in skill.
just one question: reaching ctrl for selecting all units of one type seems kind of hard to do. Should I press that with the base of my hand, which feels very very strange or should I try to reach back with my pinky?
I use my pinkie. I don't find it too awkward, although it certainly is if you have your hand tipped in too much. I wish I could assign that function to Alt, but I didn't think of that till you mentioned it. <3
We have two of the 3 Masters players needed for "the plan". All I need now is a Terran player who wants to switch. If you fit the description, please contact me. ^^
I've been playing with and trying to learn this for a bit (only ~25 games so far). It's tricky but I think it will pay off. I'm a mid-masters Zerg for reference.
Here are some of the changes/specific binds I use that I think are great for Zerg. Also, I have shortish fingers so they help with that.
Control Groups: Use (Bind) #1: Army (R) #2: Army (T) #3: Army (G) #4: Harass/Drop (V) #5: Harass/Drop (B) #6: Hatches (Mouse5) This is actually one of the hardest to get used to #7: All Queens (3) Makes the spacebar inject very easy #8: Queen 1/Hatch 1 (4) #9: Queen 2/Hatch 2 (5) #10: Creep Queen/Hatch 3 (6)
I find this is a great Zerg setup. It lets me use spacebar inject in the early game, and then doubletap inject later. Another hidden benefit is that you have the 3, 4 and 5 keys bound early which I find helps since I tend to 343434 out of habit from thousands of games with a more typical hotkey layout. It sounds weird but to go 3434343434 and not have the menu bar change at all really throws me for some reason.
Overall, great layout and I hope I'm able to fully transition to it!
Foxy I like very much your layout, it takes time for me to get used to that after using the default keys for so long. As a Protoss player the only thing I didn't like is "y" as shortcut to warpgates. Have you tried to use middle mouse as shortcut to warpgates? It works for me as I never middle mouse scroll and it is much more comfortable, as my mind easier process pressing a bottom so close than to move less accurate left hand to far letter y and combine with q,w,e,d,f.
Sorry guys, I've been away from this thread for a while, I thought it had died!
Okay, I'm using a new file hosting service. Download links updated.
On September 03 2011 21:40 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Foxy I like very much your layout, it takes time for me to get used to that after using the default keys for so long. As a Protoss player the only thing I didn't like is "y" as shortcut to warpgates. Have you tried to use middle mouse as shortcut to warpgates? It works for me as I never middle mouse scroll and it is much more comfortable, as my mind easier process pressing a bottom so close than to move less accurate left hand to far letter y and combine with q,w,e,d,f.
You're welcome! <3 Thank you for saying so. I believe using a mouse key for warpgates is optimal, since your next action is done with the keyboard had, so it has a nice alternation (mouse hand warpgate select, keyboard hand unit select, mouse click for warp in). This customization is excellent.
As for making it a part of the main layout, I cannot assume players have 3 mouse buttons, and even if I did, placing a 1-race-only ability on the third mouse button is less than optimal for the other races. This is the compromise (one that works well with the 6Y tap for positioning the camera), and is only slightly less than optimal. I am glad you're optimizing it for your race, though.
I've also recommend Terrans set Liftoff to Y, replacing the Protoss-Only Warpgate select for a more convenient reach. Since I play all the races regularly, the layouts I've shared (hopefully) work well for all and are easy to switch races between, while sacrificing very little.
On September 04 2011 23:16 Catgroove wrote: Do you really think alt + 5TGB is comfy?
Are you using your thumb to press Alt? Alt + B is not comfortable, but B is only used a bit in the lategame. I suggest setting it with Ctrl. If they are uncomfortable for you, using Ctrl is still an option for all Control Groups.
I'd love to use this as-is, but unfortunately it's impossible for Mac users to use CMD+V and CMD+H to set control groups (due to a system limitation according to the Mac Tech Support blizz forums). It looks like I'm going to have to make some modifications so we'll see how it goes.
I'm a high master Terran and I switched to this hotkey layout a few days ago. I had to change some keys and I need like 3-4 days to switch. But now I feel very comfortable with these hotkeys and I think I play better and have more potential to improve. I can suggest everyone who plays just one race to switch. It is possible. I played over a year with standard hotkeys.
I guess this happens with every race, i play protoss, an all my probes are automaticaly hotkeyed together to 0, so i can just look at it and say, Daaaamn i have 90 probes, should kill some.. can this be illegal in some way, getting your probe count from automated hotkeyeing ?
Okay, so file dropper failed me again. I've placed the files in my skydrive and made them public, hopefully that will fix things! Download link available at the bottom of the post, like usual. Thank to AneXus for pointing out the broken link.
@rohanim41: Automated hotkeying (aka, you're not the one selecting the probe and pressing shift/ctrl 0) is against the Blizzard terms of service, and according to the ELUA they can close your account for that. It would be super nice to have an automated worker count, especially for the lower leagues, but yeah.
As for doing left handed one, maybe in the future. If you just take the same principles and mirror them you should come out with something pretty good. If you do make one, I can post it in this thread if you like.
Glad to know it's working out for you so well, Flub! I know that now that I'm practiced with it I do a lot better. Still working on my control for lategame queen/brood/infestor control versus the P deathball. I tend to default back to ctrl+click selection instead of hotkeys T.T, ha ha ha. Not good when you need to be so fast.
Hey, do you guys know Queen/Brood/Infestor is really, really good? Throw some roaches in, and if you lose your army (though I don't know how, I've taken down so many 200/200 protoss balls with it only losing 20-40 food) you can remax on roach-hydra.
Thanks for the quick fix to the download problem! I've only played a cpl of games with the layout and I have to thank you for the wonderful work you've put in.
I've been using this setup for a couple of weeks now, and what I've noticed so far is that I have made an insane number of accidental lairs and queens (while making roaches and zerglings) and my banelings tend to explode spontaneously when I'm trying to click the r unit hotkey. It's a great setup, but not very forgiving of mistakes (at least for zerg, I don't know about the other races).
I main as Zerg, and when first switching I occasionally made a some extra lairs or overseers, but I haven't had a problem for quite a while. Since everything is close together, it does make a misclick more likely, though...
If anyone else is having this problem, tell me, and I'll create a revised version to help reduce misclicks (sacrificing some speed). Rain, do you mind if I ask if you are Gold league or lower?
On October 07 2011 12:16 rohanim41 wrote: I guess this happens with every race, i play protoss, an all my probes are automaticaly hotkeyed together to 0, so i can just look at it and say, Daaaamn i have 90 probes, should kill some.. can this be illegal in some way, getting your probe count from automated hotkeyeing ?
when i downloaded the file, the 0 group was messed up so that add units to it was the same as select its units so whenever I had any units selected and tried to switch to 0 it would add all of them to it. You just have to go change the keys for setting group 0 to [shift]+0.
Thank you! I thought I eliminated that error. I will change it immediately.
EDIT: Version 1.2.1 released * The 10th control group (N) for Keyboard Only will now bind units correctly * All version have corrected a post SC2 update 1.4.1 hotkey conflict: Baneling explode on building button is set to 7 (like liftoff/land), instead of G, where it conflicted with the G control group.
On October 11 2011 08:37 FoxyMayhem wrote: Oh my! That's no good.
I main as Zerg, and when first switching I occasionally made a some extra lairs or overseers, but I haven't had a problem for quite a while. Since everything is close together, it does make a misclick more likely, though...
If anyone else is having this problem, tell me, and I'll create a revised version to help reduce misclicks (sacrificing some speed). Rain, do you mind if I ask if you are Gold league or lower?
I'm a diamond Zerg. One game, I was trying to baneling bust, and I made and cancelled like 4 lairs, wasting a ton of gas haha. I used to macro pretty inefficiently (instead of clicking wffffffff, clicking fwffwwfffwf), but I don't do that much anymore. Maybe if I clean up my macro this won't be a problem. However, the explode hotkey is too close to other control groups to be safe imo.
Ah, I see. Do you rest your fingers on the recommended places? (Pinkie on Q, Ring on W, Middle on E, Pointer on F, Thumb on Space). If you do that, then you have to reach for control groups, which is an action never taken when activating any of those keys, even baneling explode. The two actions are so completely different, a straight key press versus a reach key press, that I have never accidentally exploded banelings with this setup (unlike grid, where I did it an cried all the time, ha ha ha). So I suspect it may be your hand positioning.
I tried playing a couple of customs v AI to try to get used to this, and I have to say, it's pretty rough trying to undo the muscle memory that i've got built up for warping in units and building probes.
With that said, I think that it's going to take me quite a bit longer before I get back up to my old speed using this hotkey set up, but I think it'll be very good once I get up there.
How long about is it taking everyone to adjust to this set up?
You just download it and read the OP, should have all the information you're looking for.
Camera keys are saved locations, so basically if I set a camera hotkey (in this case F2) at the Xel'Naga watchtower, then every time i press F2, my screen will center on the tower. Pressing CTRL + Camera key will save whatever location you're looking at, so if you're looking at the tower and then save location, then every time you press your camera key it will center at that location. Very good for proxy pylons, towers, mineral lines.
Hey guys, if I'm slow in responding, make sure to send me a PM.
Okay, on to your surviving questions, Drgrofl and [NoiSe].
I've used 4 different hotkey layouts, and times vary when adjusting. For instance, Standard to Grid took me about 40-50 games to return to full speed, though I did get better at other things in that time too. To go from Darkgrid to Optimus it took me about 20 games. Others switching from Standard to Optimus took about 20, give or take, it's actually much easier to switch to than Standard to Grid.
If you're planning on making full use of the camera hotkeys, expect to have to train that a bit (never let yourself not make them, make games of having a friend call out which base or tower you need to view and practice using the camera keys to do so, etc). That can take more time, because you're essentially upgrading your skills, not just changing layouts. It's a lot of work, but you get so much faster doing it.
@drgrofl: I'm glad the layout is helping!
Camera hotkeys are kind of like control groups, but instead of saving a selection to be recalled later, you save a camera position. For instance, if I set a camera hotkey on my third base, when it's getting dropped it takes me less time to respond and pull my workers away. This is a huge deal versus baneling drops, where a second can mean the difference between 2 probes lost or 10.
"Yyou know how you say in terran tips that tab is space bar when you cycle thoutugh production...???" Ah yes, thank you, I forgot about that. I need to correct that, there was a time when spacebar did that, but I changed it back to make switching easier (and since it doesn't make a huge difference).
I'm working on refining the current camera controls and integrating the Camera Rolling technique technique by michaelhasanalias. Pretty difficult, so figuring this out is going to take some time. I'm hoping to get in touch with him and coordinate on the effort.
On October 16 2011 02:56 FoxyMayhem wrote: Hey guys, if I'm slow in responding, make sure to send me a PM.
Okay, on to your surviving questions, Drgrofl and [NoiSe].
I've used 4 different hotkey layouts, and times vary when adjusting. For instance, Standard to Grid took me about 40-50 games to return to full speed, though I did get better at other things in that time too. To go from Darkgrid to Optimus it took me about 20 games. Others switching from Standard to Optimus took about 20, give or take, it's actually much easier to switch to than Standard to Grid.
If you're planning on making full use of the camera hotkeys, expect to have to train that a bit (never let yourself not make them, make games of having a friend call out which base or tower you need to view and practice using the camera keys to do so, etc). That can take more time, because you're essentially upgrading your skills, not just changing layouts. It's a lot of work, but you get so much faster doing it.
@drgrofl: I'm glad the layout is helping!
Camera hotkeys are kind of like control groups, but instead of saving a selection to be recalled later, you save a camera position. For instance, if I set a camera hotkey on my third base, when it's getting dropped it takes me less time to respond and pull my workers away. This is a huge deal versus baneling drops, where a second can mean the difference between 2 probes lost or 10.
"Yyou know how you say in terran tips that tab is space bar when you cycle thoutugh production...???" Ah yes, thank you, I forgot about that. I need to correct that, there was a time when spacebar did that, but I changed it back to make switching easier (and since it doesn't make a huge difference).
I'm working on refining the current camera controls and integrating the Camera Rolling technique technique by michaelhasanalias. Pretty difficult, so figuring this out is going to take some time. I'm hoping to get in touch with him and coordinate on the effort.
Dude... you are the nicest teamliquider in the world. NO DOUBT.
I am no progamer and I don't know if any use it, but often, every probe I make + a couple random buildings, all end up being automatically hotkeyed to ctrl group 0, it's cool to have a probe count but can it be illegal playing with this in a tournament. It could be considered external ressources giving you an unequal advantage, still quite small.
Other than that, it's really awesome, I really had struggle hitting every key correctly under pressure but with every thing in the same place, it's much less trouble getting stressed ingame. As protoss I couldnt play without it.
The pinkie still has plenty of responsibilities, but giving it half of the work when you have five didgets, which is what Grid does is just a bad idea. But reducing the workload on the pinkie isn't even the main accomplishment of the layout.
Do you mind providing a link to the graphic file you have made. It's ok if you don't have it. I can make it myself but it would be just faster. Thanks.
I have checked all three set ups and I've that Hotkeys for the same functions in the each profile are different. For instance, in "Keyboard only" and "no F-keys", basic buildings are under F and building Pylons are under E keys. In "Mouse" set up, these Hotkeys are elsewhere: basic building is under E key and Pylon is under W.
My Pinky is "Extra small" ;p and I tried configuration with moving all this from Q to A but I realised that I prefer to move hand a little bit and reach Q because then I quickly reach SHIFT (with pinky) for multiple warpings. When I do it with pinky pressing A and then SHIFT than I am not very quick. Lol, how strange, isn't it !
Well, personnally, I always leave my pinky lying on the Q, the attack command/Zealot warping, and it doesn't have much moving to do since you rarely use A for moving instead of right clicking, i don't really use the Z key cuz I play protoss so...
Was this layout achieves is putting every Usefull command and every control group, within the same half of the keyboard. You have access to all 10 control groups and 8 cam positions, and the most useful is that all spells will always be on the same hotkeys(F,E,W,Q which your fingers are resting on by default ), once you know them, it's really easy because they are the same keys you use to build units and buildings. Most used fingers are still the Index and middle finger I couldn't do without it now !
really really nice in theory... i hope my fingers will accept it
the only thing i've to adjust is my hatch control. i like to have every single hatch on a key, also for injects. maybe i use the mineral line hotkeys, but they seemed to be a bit to far away for often use.
I've been using a highly customized layout inspired by this one for a couple of months now. Sooooo much better than the slightly modified standard layout I was using before (especially for Random).
On November 07 2011 18:56 hyx wrote: really really nice in theory... i hope my fingers will accept it
the only thing i've to adjust is my hatch control. i like to have every single hatch on a key, also for injects. maybe i use the mineral line hotkeys, but they seemed to be a bit to far away for often use.
Backspace inject methods are pretty easy to pull off with most versions of this layout. You have so many control groups at your fingertips that you don't have to make major changes to your control group organization if you already have something that worked for you, though. I personally didn't like having production/queens/bases on the mouse... (I use my mouse for camera hotkeys, which is way a better fit for my style.)
Oh dear, I didn't realize Mouse was off like that. I'll have to fix that with version 1.3. The main difference in 1.3 is the "move" command has been removed making more room for commands like liftoff and land, patrol is placed where move was, making it easier to reach, and the marine has two hotkeys you can tap back and forth with, F and D, for faster and more accurate marine production.
I'm glad people are modifying it to fit their uses! I've done my best to make it universal and efficient, but there are a lot of things that are just preference. I'm trying to figure out how to use the rolling camera method with this, but it's being quite a bugger to do.
thanks for the file and the program. I was looking for something like this.
I had to remove camera from the key 3 because it was confusing me a little bit. I accidantely press it and my viewport goes away >.<. Of course, the key 1 is no longer a viewport on any Xel'Naga towers but a proxy Pylon, so is 6. Depending where my hand is, I use eirher 1 or 6 ;p. I must say that learning this is more complicated that I expected but I can feel like I am using much more CTRL groups and faster.
Glad it's working for you, man. I prefer people customize their setups. I personally still have trouble using my cameras, so I'm trying to find a way to use the 'rolling camera' setup on top of this. It's quite difficult to design...
I can see why the camera on 3 would be confusing. It's actually harder for my hand to reach 3 than 2 or 4, so I put the camera there instead (figuring I'll be accessing control groups more often). I'm also thinking of making Caps Lock function like Ctrl, so I don't have to rotate my hand as far to replace control groups.
Some people have PMed me asking if I'll make a version of this layout for HotS. Absolutely! No worries.
Great layout, I've been working on a radically different layout for the past week or so and yours is actually very close to mine, except I skipped on grid.
But I like a lot of yours better, so I'm just going to take it with some slight modifications ^^.
When you say rolling camera what do you exactly mean? Do you want to jump from one camera to another by rolling a mouse button? I don't know if it's possible. I did not see any command which let you jump from one camera to another, something like hitting BACKSPACE cases to jump between Command Centres.
The rolling camera method originally worked something like this: A: set camera point 1 S: Main Base Cam D: Second Base Cam F: Third Base Cam Z: Fourth Base Cam X: Fifth Base Cam C: Camera Point 1
So, in order to scroll through all your bases, you just tap your fingers down your keyboard. The first key sets camera point 1, and the last returns you to it, allowing you to toggle through all your bases incredibly fast and accurately. If you were, say, doing muta harass, when you hit C you'd be looking back at the exact same spot, making the return one easy motion instead of having to cycle cameras and then double-click your control group.
The way I'm currently trying to make it is so Space+Q acts as Ctrl+Q. Space/Ctrl is used in combination with QWE ASDF to recall the cameras, and Alt is used to set them. This way, you don't have to move your fingers hardly at all, just pressing down space with your thumb and suddenly all your unit command become cameras, all right under your fingertips. This leaves two cameras available for watch towers, ramps, or proxy pylons, which would be assigned to ~ and 1.
The problem is trying to use shift+inject with this for Zerg. Inject is on E, and holding shift+space+cycling through those letters is a pain, and doesn't register properly. If Shift was added as a mouse button, that could work, but I don't know if pressing ctrl while holding shift will register as Shift+E and Ctrl+E. I think it won't, it will register and Ctrl+Shift+E, which breaks the whole thing.
The primary solution would be to not have inject command and the cameras overlap. However, that starts to get confusing, and you need 6 cameras for this to work, since injecting 5 bases is the minimum for lategame. The other option is to remove the set and recall buttons (Q is set Camera 1, F is recall Camera 1). I could set the cameras to Space/Ctrl QW ASDF, leaving E out entirely. If Ctrl+Shift behaves as Shift (and thus just ignores ctrl) for the purpose of unit commands, space could become Ctrl+Shift, and one could simply hold space bar, press E, and then cycle the cameras (they'd be set to Ctr+Shift, which would then no longer ignore the Ctrl command). I think this is the best option, even though it requires double-tapping a control group to return to the original camera location. To be honest, I hardly ever find myself wanting to return to where my camera was before macroing or responding to base threats, so this may actually be a boon.
Anyway, ZikO, Backspace is currently set to the space bar, MUCH easier to reach. But space bar is inconsistent on which cc/hatch/nex it places your camera at. Setting individual cameras without any finger reaching like I'm trying to make will allow you to respond to baneling mineral line drops half a second faster, which is the difference between 2 dead probes and 10. Against multipronged harass, it can allow for very quick toggling for super-multitasking.
I'm also changing where tech structures are placed, instead of having their own hotkey, they are placed on the CC/Nex/Hatch keys, so you can tab to them when needed, leaving more room for harass.
Two problems with Ctrl+Shift both being assigned to space bar: 1) It pushes the bounds of the terms of service. It's supposed to be 1 button = one action. While that's still true -- space E behaves as shift E, space Q will be have as Ctrl Q -- the space bar itself is acting as two pressed modifier keys. I'll need to contact Blizzard about this to make sure. 2) Space bar IS used for typing, and changing the function of the key with a third party program (as is required) is going to make this layout a pain. This is why assigning the Shift+Ctrl function to a mouse button may be better. I'll have to play with it to feel it out.
--
mtszyk: Hey man, what's different? I'm always curious as to what people come up with, especially if its just plain better than what Optimus 1.2 currently is.
This is at the moment too complicated for me. I have used your standard set with a few modifications because of it's comfort to reach all keys quickly. I still have bases on BACKSPACE. I just use a click on minimap to move to them. I think it's due to my habit.
About the injecting, I played Zerg a little bit and yes injecting is important requiring sort of quick access. But ... You do injecting periodically always after certain amount of time. Therefore, I would not worry about injecting as much. I would simply assign injecting either to one of the closest key to BACKSPACE or move BACKSPACE close to E. This way you just spam: base jump -> inject -> click on base as many times as the number of bases. and you are done for a while. I would not need injecting to have as close as any other Hotkeys which require continuous access due to Army or base management. I would also set all Hachteries to one Hotkey and one of the Hatchery to another (does not matter which one unless injecting is done at all bases). By doing this, I'd still have access to all bases making Army quickly and ability to monitor injected Larvas. When it is done, I would just repeat: Base JUMP -> Inject -> Left Click on base again and again, regardless if BASE JUMP is assigned to BACKSPACE or not.
As to rolling through bases and Cameras, I would lose control on those. I need to click on minimap. This gives me precision where exactly I am jumping to; usually at the point where I can see Red Exclamation mark, lol
EDIT: Alternatively, you can Hotkey each Queen. I dropped cameras from 2 and 4 and simply made Gr control on them. I have 2-5: 4 gr controls, RTGHVB other gr controls. I would personally use 2 as All Hatcheries 3 for one of the Hatcheries. And RTGH for Queens and have super fast injecting Zerg does not need as much micro as Terran or Protoss. Zerg needs to make Army super fast. Just make Rely Point at one point on a map and Set camera there.
Okay, I have working 1.3, but I need to test it to see if certain elements are actually good. That means getting good with it. I've had wrist troubles, so it might be a few more weeks, but I just wanted those watching to know: 1.3 is looking sick!
On November 28 2011 08:31 RaKooNs wrote: Looks really nice however it would be almost impossible to switch from this if you been playing with standard hotkeys for over a year.....
This is the problem I have. It seems interesting and more efficient, but the time it takes to break my old habits and to once again be conscious of all my actions, is extremely frustrating. I'm not saying it isn't worth it if you look at the long run, but for more casual players like myself it's hard to justify. I imagine it would be even worse for players coming from a broodwar background...
But awesome work. It seems you've really put a lot of careful thought into designing this!
Alright, I'm gonna try this...I think I need a new hotkey set up...and this one looks quite nice, especially considering I haven't found another one yet...
You don't learn SC2 again. It takes about 20-30 games to learn your fingers. It's worth trying. If you know what you're doing. Your brain will adapt quickly.
On November 28 2011 08:14 FoxyMayhem wrote: Okay, I have working 1.3, but I need to test it to see if certain elements are actually good. That means getting good with it. I've had wrist troubles, so it might be a few more weeks, but I just wanted those watching to know: 1.3 is looking sick!
kk, though I'm just getting used to it, I'm REALLY, REALLY liking it. My hand doesn't move at all! It's amazing! (but really weird...) although, resting my fingers on qwef is kinda weird...
question though: I realize this is ultimately up to preference, but, you have "mouse 3" has your production cycle and mouse 4 as queens (as far as zerg is concerned)...does that mean that the hatchery should be on...say...my "forward mouse button" and the queens on my "backward mouse button"?? 'Cause, currently, that's what I have it set to...and, to say the least, it's weird, but my fingers barely move.
@Amaterasu: I'm glad it's working so well! I developed it for 2 reasons initially: 1, because I saw the Spanishiwa stream where LiquidTyler had just placed control groups on F and D (hilarious moment in SC2 history, btw), and I realized that there were a lot of wasted keys right under your hands, and 2), the why your hand doesn't move at all: I was suffering from severe repeat stress injuries in my wrists. I wanted to play starcraft so bad, but if it killed my wrist every time, there was no way. I had to design something better.
I would absolutely love to see someone like TLO switch to this. I can't imagine what it would do for him. Probably not before 1.3 is released, though; there are some small but important changes for pro-level players there.
Anyway, I put my hatches on back and my queens on forward. Production selection is on the mouse because the next action -- ordering units -- is on the keyboard. By alternating, you can execute actions faster. It's like tapping F and D, versus tapping F twice, you can tap F and D so much faster and easier. As for which goes on forward and which goes on back, it doesn't matter. My brain is weird though, because I see my hatches as my "base", like a foundation, and queens as an extension from that. Like "home" and "other", so home is closer to me (the back button, hatcheries) and queens are further away. I don't think I can explain it any better, it's just a weird emotional mnemonic.
@enigamI: It takes 25-40 games to get as good as you were -- you can cut a few down by just practicing opening over and over for about 6-7 games. If you're casual enough so 30 games is more than you play in 2 weeks and have no wrist problems, I doubt the switch is worth it. For more frequent players, the down-time is just 1-3 days, with old habits occasionally popping up over that week. Not too huge of a delay, (assuming you're not going to a tournament).
@ntvarify & Dhalphir: Hope it works well! Unlearning isn't the problem so much as learning the new one. If you haven't seen it, I have little phrases and ways to remember the buttons to help you make the transition -- things like 'W'ant 'W'orker, WW, for creating a drone. As for how to learn best, when you sit down to practice for the first time it's best if you practice the opening several time in a row. You know, start a 3rax and make some rine/raud, or 6 pool, or whatever. Quit a bit after the opening is done and restart Knowing those primary commands well makes learning the rest way easier.
And remember: most obscure things (like Ultralisk armor) will simply be on F or E. In fact, everything that can be on F and E pretty much is XD. Between knowing the hotkeys used in opening and knowing the obscure stuff (the stuff you won't practice as often in an average game) is either F or E, you've pretty much learned the setup. The biggest obstacle left will be using your control groups, which, if you're like most people who only use 3 or 4, really won't be hard.
Really like what you're doing with 1.3. The rolling camera hotkeys and scroll functions look really useful and interesting. I've been having problems with the hold shift cycle through hatches method, because it doesn't really work if you don't have at least one queen per hatch. Having queens and hatches on the mouse scroll would definitely provide a great alternative.
Edit: Maybe you should introduce a hotkey that allows you to zoom in/out with this setup, ctrl + mouse scroll or the + and - buttons or something similar. If that's possible without reducing the efficiency of the setup, it would be helpful if someone using the setup ever wanted to use the zoom function.
I feel like there should be more posts like this one, as they are really helpful to lesser skilled players such as myself. They should be promoted more, as mechanics are so crucial in developing skill in sc2.
Okay y'all, wanted to get the layouts out there for the holidays. Merry Christmas and all that jazz! I don't have a few videos explaining the layout, and more media will be trickling in. I'll be writing up an FAQ too. For those who want to jump in without all that extras, go for it!
How do you get the tanks to be top priority? I'm following what it says in text but it doesnt seem to work. Every time I come back to that control group the marines always take precedence.
I think they removed that ability in a recent patch, actually. I tested it over and over a few months back, but now I can't get it to do that (just tested yesterday). Sadface!
On December 21 2011 05:47 FoxyMayhem wrote: I think they removed that ability in a recent patch, actually. I tested it over and over a few months back, but now I can't get it to do that (just tested yesterday). Sadface!
Sadface indeed. I have always wanted to be able to siege more easily off my main hotkey group. I do just keep tanks on a solo hotkey but.... even so.
The downloads are available through the same link at the bottom, aka it's already released. I just haven't had a chance to make all the documentation and -- though I really don't think so -- they're might be one or two changes, or something in one of the layouts that's different from the others that I've missed. Baring any minor assignment errors and the documention, it is, for all intents and purposes, released! XD
Glad people are lovin on the art! Put some work into that :D.
"Main one bigger"? What "main one".
The easiest diagram for what buttons do what is the one Blizzard provides. Download the layout and open it in the Hotkeys menu in SCII. It's quite hard to make a diagram to show the 30 various different spells, researches, and abilities that are placed on F alone, it would look awkward and not really help anyone remember the stuff. If you're having trouble remembering the key positions, remember, you can check the "Show Hotkey Text" in the gameplay section of the options, that will show it for you without having to highlight the buttons.
For those you wanting to switch from standard to 1.3, I'd absolutely suggest you do so, but don't ladder. You'll just lose a ton. Instead, try using the multitasker custom to force you to use camera hotkeys and/or control groups. Or you could just do a ton of customs if you have practice partners available.
It took me ~3 weeks to switch from standard to 1.3, particularly after using standard since sc2 came out. Plenty of lost games on ladder, plenty of lost customs, and plenty of failed attempts at the multitasker custom. But, in the end, I'm glad I did it, as my control is better and easier, harassing is ez pz with ridiculously easily accessible control groups (r&v&g), upgrading is easier with a hotkey dedicated to tech structures. Not to mention the fact that soooo much is on 'f'...
I'm glad you love the layout, but you've probably been playing with 1.2, since 1.3 has only been out a few days, ha ha ha! 1.3 offers even more than 1.2, but both are so far beyond Standard and Grid it's like comparing letter openers to long swords. 1.3 maybe be a better designed longsword, but pretty much everything you say applies, and both trash the battlefield.
Good post, man, well said, and I'm so glad it's working for you. Yeah, you don't want to ladder right after the switch, doing macro trainers and practicing early late-game situations (once you've mastered the early game controls) will let you adjust much more swiftly.
I <3 R, V, G, too
EDIT: Wait, Ama? As in Seiryuu? Ha ha ha, no, guys, if this is Seiryuu he's legit, he's one of my masters layout testers, he has been playing 1.3 for that time. Funny that I don't know his TL account. It's thanks to him that we have 1.3 in any timely fashion, instead of waiting for my wrists to heal!
As i am a former FPS player i naturally always navigate to the wasd, so rather than trying to resist this i adjusted my hotkeys for this. change make building from b to s and advanced building to d works really well, so much faster, them crucial seconds
Yes, I'd say try Pro, but you'll need to move your control groups back to the keyboard. Information on what keys to use is available in the FAQ at the bottom of the spoilered preview -- just added it! If there is any way you can use the mouse buttons well, go for it, because that's one of the best elements about pro. Otherwise, don't worry about it.
Overall I really like the new layout (1.3). The only down sides for me are the use of 'caps lock' and the 2 mouse buttons. Just my personal preference obviously, but I really hate mouse buttons for some reason. Caps Lock isn't all that bad as it only makes me look like a raging idiot in chat.
Other than that: really good work! And the videos are pretty funny ^^ Thanks for your time and effort. I really appreciate it.
I have two questions, and I hope they have not been asked yet. If so, sorry, I have not time enough to read all the posts. 1.- When is the 1.3 version going to be available? 2.- I have a problem with the last version released. When I play as Zerg, I have the D button (stops doing anything that it was doing) mixed with some abilities (spread creep, for example). Is that normal, or have I make a mistake of any kind?
On December 21 2011 18:30 FoxyMayhem wrote: I'm glad you love the layout, but you've probably been playing with 1.2, since 1.3 has only been out a few days, ha ha ha! 1.3 offers even more than 1.2, but both are so far beyond Standard and Grid it's like comparing letter openers to long swords. 1.3 maybe be a better designed longsword, but pretty much everything you say applies, and both trash the battlefield.
Good post, man, well said, and I'm so glad it's working for you. Yeah, you don't want to ladder right after the switch, doing macro trainers and practicing early late-game situations (once you've mastered the early game controls) will let you adjust much more swiftly.
I <3 R, V, G, too
EDIT: Wait, Ama? As in Seiryuu? Ha ha ha, no, guys, if this is Seiryuu he's legit, he's one of my masters layout testers, he has been playing 1.3 for that time. Funny that I don't know his TL account. It's thanks to him that we have 1.3 in any timely fashion, instead of waiting for my wrists to heal!
The most annoying part about this layout is that ' is the sound key (default is ctrl+S). If you actually type your words out properly like I do your sound gets toggled while chatting. Stuff like "don't" and "can't" toggle the sound. Although it is easy to change for the individual I think it would be good to change it to something like ctrl+' by default just to make the layout that much better.
hey, master toss switching to terran, really great setup, trying out for the past couple days while learning t. A couple suggestions: - I moved the patrol key(x) to q as move command is already on your right click - moved move command to x -moved attack to a instead of q as i found it way to hard to switch to q Over all great setup and I am looking forward to having it memorized!
Oh my, see, this is why this is a prerelease, I thought I had fixed all those issues present. Thank you for bringing them up, layouts updated.
On December 22 2011 05:59 FallenStar wrote: I have two questions, and I hope they have not been asked yet. If so, sorry, I have not time enough to read all the posts. 1.- When is the 1.3 version going to be available? 2.- I have a problem with the last version released. When I play as Zerg, I have the D button (stops doing anything that it was doing) mixed with some abilities (spread creep, for example). Is that normal, or have I make a mistake of any kind?
Thanks for the answers.
P.D.: Sorry if my English in awful.
1. 1.3 prerelease is available already under the same download link. 2. Stop should be on W, not D, that's bizarre. I suggest you changed it back to W
On December 22 2011 07:45 SuPerFlyTNT wrote: Hey what keyboard are you using? I'm noticing the alt/space meets under the C, for me it meets under the X. Meeting under the C would be alot easier.
Dell Inspiron 15r laptop keyboard, ha ha ha. Yes, it's very nice.
On December 22 2011 07:58 Cry of FuN wrote: I'm using an azerty keyboard, do you have any solutions for this ?
3 options: 1) Toggle your keyboard to QWERTY using the windows keyboard creator. Simply pressing alt+shift will toggle your keyboard between azerty and QWERTY. 2) See where the keys are supposed to go and then manually adjust the hotkey layout yourself. Probably the best option. Send me the file and I'll put it in the Download area for other azerty users 3) Use the excellent software "AutoHotkey" to make your computer automatically switch to QWERTY only when SCII is active, with manual in-game deactivation by pressing a single key. Requires the will to learn a bit of script, though.
On December 22 2011 10:51 WaKai wrote: hey, master toss switching to terran, really great setup, trying out for the past couple days while learning t. A couple suggestions: - I moved the patrol key(x) to q as move command is already on your right click - moved move command to x -moved attack to a instead of q as i found it way to hard to switch to q Over all great setup and I am looking forward to having it memorized!
Glad you're liking it. 1&2: Patrol is on A in 1.3, Move command is placed on M, aka the far side of the keyboard out of the way since no one uses it. The download for 1.3 is in the same link at the bottom of the OP. 3: Attack is used more frequently than patrol, and so is placed on the resting position, so the player doesn't have to needlessly move their finger so much more often. When you're bouncing back and forth between you R and V harass, it's actually really helpful to have it on Q. Individual players are welcome to change that how they like, of course, but at this point I've given up on "easy to learn" and shoot almost entirely for "highest efficiency". If was still doing "easy to learn", though, this is a great suggestion.
On December 22 2011 10:51 WaKai wrote: hey, master toss switching to terran, really great setup, trying out for the past couple days while learning t. A couple suggestions: - I moved the patrol key(x) to q as move command is already on your right click - moved move command to x -moved attack to a instead of q as i found it way to hard to switch to q Over all great setup and I am looking forward to having it memorized!
Glad you're liking it. 1&2: Patrol is on A in 1.3, Move command is placed on M, aka the far side of the keyboard out of the way since no one uses it. The download for 1.3 is in the same link at the bottom of the OP. 3: Attack is used more frequently than patrol, and so is placed on the resting position, so the player doesn't have to needlessly move their finger so much more often. When you're bouncing back and forth between you R and V harass, it's actually really helpful to have it on Q. Individual players are welcome to change that how they like, of course, but at this point I've given up on "easy to learn" and shoot almost entirely for "highest efficiency". If was still doing "easy to learn", though, this is a great suggestion.[/QUOTE]
Oh, probably downloaded the older version. Yeah tried using q for a move the first day and was too hard to switch lol would always patrol my army into theirs.
Well I just played afew games and I'm really enjoying it, but the mouse buttons are so unintuitive to me and are killing me.
I plan to move (Zerg btw) the XNWT keys back to the F-keys and queens/hatch to 1 and 2. Sort of like a hybrid between pro and basic if you will.
I use the f keys instead of your suggested changes because I have an awesome keyboard with easy to reach f keys ^^
What are your opinions on that?
PS. I really like your alt-layer camera hotkeys injecting method. Seems like a pretty good compromise between the speed of backspace and the control of individually hotkey-ed queens!
I do like the Fkeys being so near! Mine is like that as well.
If you're not going for pro, simply not using cameras 1 and 2 is fine, the layered cameras on QWASDF are far more important, and even if you do plan to use those cams, F1 and F2 work well.
As for putting your Queens and Hatch on 1 and 2, I strongly suggest against it. 2 can work for queens, since your pointer and middle can still rest on E and F when selecting, but 1 is a reach and leaves your fingers out of position to execute the next action. If hatches are on 2, your finger is out of position to press W to select your larva.
Instead, I say go even more with what you mentioned: a hybrid between Pro and Basic. I'm growing an FAQ section in the original post, it's at the bottom of the spoilered 1.3 prerelease stuff. It shows you there what I recommend for Zergs who want pro but can't use their mouse buttons.
On December 22 2011 13:46 FoxyMayhem wrote: I do like the Fkeys being so near! Mine is like that as well.
If you're not going for pro, simply not using cameras 1 and 2 is fine, the layered cameras on QWASDF are far more important, and even if you do plan to use those cams, F1 and F2 work well.
As for putting your Queens and Hatch on 1 and 2, I strongly suggest against it. 2 can work for queens, since your pointer and middle can still rest on E and F when selecting, but 1 is a reach and leaves your fingers out of position to execute the next action. If hatches are on 2, your finger is out of position to press W to select your larva.
Instead, I say go even more with what you mentioned: a hybrid between Pro and Basic. I'm growing an FAQ section in the original post, it's at the bottom of the spoilered 1.3 prerelease stuff. It shows you there what I recommend for Zergs who want pro but can't use their mouse buttons.
Actually I was going to move everything forward and have hatches on numbers 4/5 as that's what I do now and I'm lazy XD
I'm slightly reluctant to use caps lock as a control group. I've remapped ctrl to caps lock, which allows super easy grouping.
I've wanted to remap Ctrl to CapsLock for a long time as well; that's a very good change, IMO. Unfortunately most people can't make it without third party software, and I wanted these layouts to be easy for professional competitors.
If you're too lazy, fine, but the finger that selects 4/5 is the one used for inject (E), so you're going to be constantly slowing yourself down every time you do such a regular task. Hatches work on 4, but I suggest moving queens to Space, 2/3, or G.
On December 22 2011 11:01 FoxyMayhem wrote: Oh my, see, this is why this is a prerelease, I thought I had fixed all those issues present. Thank you for bringing them up, layouts updated.
On December 22 2011 05:59 FallenStar wrote: I have two questions, and I hope they have not been asked yet. If so, sorry, I have not time enough to read all the posts. 1.- When is the 1.3 version going to be available? 2.- I have a problem with the last version released. When I play as Zerg, I have the D button (stops doing anything that it was doing) mixed with some abilities (spread creep, for example). Is that normal, or have I make a mistake of any kind?
Thanks for the answers.
P.D.: Sorry if my English in awful.
1. 1.3 prerelease is available already under the same download link. 2. Stop should be on W, not D, that's bizarre. I suggest you changed it back to W
On December 22 2011 10:51 WaKai wrote: hey, master toss switching to terran, really great setup, trying out for the past couple days while learning t. A couple suggestions: - I moved the patrol key(x) to q as move command is already on your right click - moved move command to x -moved attack to a instead of q as i found it way to hard to switch to q Over all great setup and I am looking forward to having it memorized!
Glad you're liking it. 1&2: Patrol is on A in 1.3, Move command is placed on M, aka the far side of the keyboard out of the way since no one uses it. The download for 1.3 is in the same link at the bottom of the OP. 3: Attack is used more frequently than patrol, and so is placed on the resting position, so the player doesn't have to needlessly move their finger so much more often. When you're bouncing back and forth between you R and V harass, it's actually really helpful to have it on Q. Individual players are welcome to change that how they like, of course, but at this point I've given up on "easy to learn" and shoot almost entirely for "highest efficiency". If was still doing "easy to learn", though, this is a great suggestion.
Since I play Z, the changes I made were:
1) Completely unbound both move and stop. Right clicking is faster than pressing M and clicking...and stopping is just bad...it's not like we're building anything. 2) I tried moving attack move to 'a' once...did not go well. Since roaches were on q, I eventually just became accustomed to pressing it, and I was forced to move it back.
as for toggling the sound, I play with the sound off...though, i did notice the "sound off/on" caption pop up a lot...
for some reason, i cannot make Mousebuttons or spacebar a Keybind.. dunno what is wrong. + apparently non of the Screen controles are working for me, except B and 1 (playing terran btw). help plox
I have problems with the alt + qwdasf camera hotkeys. my thumb is in a really strange position and it does not feel comfortable. spacebar + qwdasf would be easier, but my infestors are on spacebar..
also it feels strange to have my hatches and queens on mouse buttons, i am not sure if i will get used to this. but i will give it a try the next days, in theory this is a great hotkey setup! :- )
2. Stop should be on W, not D, that's bizarre. I suggest you changed it back to W
Yeah I know is strange, but I forgot to say that when I try to change it, a lot of hotkeys stop working, and when I try to fix the new problem, other hotkeys stop working too, so if I want all hotkeys to work, I will have to change all the hotkeys (or almost), so I decided to ask you.
P.D.: Sorry for my low English level and I hope you forgive my error.
@Fallen: how about you just delete that screwed up hotkey layout and download an un-altered one. That might be just what you need. Your English sounds fine, btw ^_^.
@Mumpfel: depending on where the buttons are on your mouse, it may be too uncomfortable. But if the reach is fine and it just feels weird for now, I bet in three days you're going to love it. Here's a key-interceptor script so that the space bar behaves as alt only when holding space and one of the layered camera buttons, and only when starcraft 2 is active. In otherwords, it's like a ninja that lets space behave as alt only when you need it. Mostly. When chatting in-game, if your word starts with one of those letters (QWASDF), it may read it as ALT and the letter, so you may look like you have a few more typos. You'll need to download and install the key interceptor:
Download AutoHotkeyL WARNING: this program can be used to create hotkeys that violate the terms of service. The script I've given DOES NOT VIOLATE the terms of service. I've used it with Starcraft 2 before, and not been banned. But this is a "use it at your own risk" solution. If Blizzard decides to ban peeps running these scripts, I am not liable for the loss of your account, and I wouldn't be shocked. That said, I doubt they will.
You'll need to remove the spacebar control group and place it on Capslock.
For those curious, mrsstunsfire123 and I skyped and got his problems worked out, he's actually going to be helping me with more detailed tutorial vids, yay! So props to him.
This is an awesome idea man, I am planning on using your hotkey setup once I get back home and am able to play, but I wanted you to know that I appreciate your vids and look forward to the rest of them!
I've tried it for some hours now and it feels really great. I just made up some few changes for my self like burrow and unborrow both on the same hotkey. Also i changed the xng-keys too F1-2, thats bcuz i am used to my previous hotkey settings ( i still have the others on with + qw.... )
Silver league player trying to switch to this before I get used to standard hotkeys. Still taking some getting used to, but the great thing is the layout semi-forces/teaches me to assign camera locations to things I normally don't bother looking at (XNWTs, Creep Tumors, any hatchery past 2 lol). I imagine my apm should sky rocket once I get used to this layout (apm currently around 50 with standard, will post back in a few weeks with an update).
Update: Since switching over and playing with it for a little less than a month my APM has indeed improved. Went from 50 APM to 100 APM no change in APM redundancy. My inject gap has taken a sharp decrease as well. Great thing is I've since been promoted to Gold! I'm still not utilizing the full hotkey spread of the layout though. My hands aren't fast enough yet for multiple unit control groups.
Just wondering, could you remake the layout pictures for 1.3 such that it looks like 1.2? Because I prefer to have a the picture of the layout in front of me while I play, and all that black coloring is not printer friendly at all.
Thanks for all the effort you put into the layout. I am seriously considering it to try and take my game to the next level, but as a Protoss player just a bit concerned about "tapping" as you only assigned two control groups to the buildings where I would typically prefer 4 (Nexus, Gateways, Robo/Stargate, Upgrades). Any suggestions on that?
Also, Mouse 4 and Mouse 5 feels a bit awkward if you have to constantly click it to do your macro. How do you handle that?
On December 30 2011 08:56 deathtrance wrote: Just wondering, could you remake the layout pictures for 1.3 such that it looks like 1.2? Because I prefer to have a the picture of the layout in front of me while I play, and all that black coloring is not printer friendly at all.
Yes, I will.
Thanks for all the effort you put into the layout. I am seriously considering it to try and take my game to the next level, but as a Protoss player just a bit concerned about "tapping" as you only assigned two control groups to the buildings where I would typically prefer 4 (Nexus, Gateways, Robo/Stargate, Upgrades). Any suggestions on that?
Also, Mouse 4 and Mouse 5 feels a bit awkward if you have to constantly click it to do your macro. How do you handle that?
You can tap using the Pro Protoss setup by pressing mouse 4, mouse 5, tab, tab, mouse 4, mouse 5, tab, tab. It's an easy beat, mouse mouse pinkie pinkie, if your mouse buttons 4 and 5 are in a comfortable location. If not, then you may need to hotkey your units/structures differently than shown. Place the nexus on 3, gateways on 4, robo on T, and Stargate on 5 (the least commonly used structure, which is why it's on the furthest one from your hand). Place your Colossus and stalkers on your mouse. Templar on G. Scout on Harass 2 until it's needed for harass.
Mouse 4 and 5 are right under thumb using the Ikari Laser mouse by Steel Series, and many Logitech mice. They are the "forward" and "Backward" buttons that default to web navigation. The majority of 5 button mice have these, but yours may not. Where are your 4 and 5?
It sure looks interesting and effective, and I already did switch from Standard to Grid in Season 2 so I don't think it would be a problem for me. However, I'm sort of in doubt. While it looks and sounds great, the detail is lacking a bit. You're clearly not an amazing player yourself, which doesn't stop the layout from being great, but it would probably help your credibility to have at least a few master players make videos of them using it and explaining what they like about it.
I personally hate moving my hand when playing because it will lead to misclicks. While I'm a strong proponent of backspace-inject, I have often had issues with it (because of lacking queens) and I'm not using it as well as I used to. All of this combined means I have a lot of motivation to try your setup... but it's hard to motivate relearning a hotkey setup over a week when all I have is your promise that it's effective
If you have contact with master players using it, please let me know how they feel about it, it would definitely help me get on it.
I have been contacted by about 10 masters players who have switched. Every one has liked it, most saying they love it. Most recently, I was contacted by a high EU masters Terran who was so excited by it, and loved it so much, that he's going to help me produce around 8 tutorial videos (what we have planned so far) showing how to practice most effectively, and how to get the most out of the layout.
If you use the pro layout, use the Zerg-style camera assignment for the alt-cams. Once I update the layouts they will all be like the zerg one.
On January 03 2012 21:53 k3m4 wrote: Y U NO UPLOAD PROTOSS PRO VERSION?
Protoss and Terran use the same pro layout, if you read the full name it says "Optimus 1.3 Pro Terran Protoss".
Thanks for your answer. I have started working on getting the Pro Zerg one down now. It's very hard to get used to, but that's what I expected. Gotten past the "omfg, it's like i'm 5 years old" now and was at least able to beat a medium AI Won't touch laddering until I can reliably beat GTAI hard.
My impression so far: * Injection and basecams are actually wonderful. I'm forcing myself to use it (because it's the reason I wanted to try darkgrid) and I'm keeping my energy down, so it's working fine. I used to use the minimap to get between bases so this is great. * Using shift is quite annoying since you're keeping your pinky on q. I have to move my hand quite a bit on my Razer Blackwidow to get my pinky to shift. * Same as above, my blackwidow isn't too cool with keeping tumb on alt, you have to tilt your hand way too much. I'm keeping it on space and it's close enough to use it for the base cams, so it's still OK. * The massive setup for army... I can't even keep my whole army on T and my lings on R, so I will need a LOT of training to get this working. * Using mouse buttons, so hard. I like it and I will keep it, but man, so hard getting used to. * The setup time for each new base feels long... but I realize this is because it's not in muscle memory yet, and you only do it once per base so it doesn't even matter.
Overall, I feel it has a buttload of potential and I hope I can get used to it soon. While doing my opening felt impossible when I started, I almost feel like I pull it off better now since it's easier to jump between scout and main.
UPDATE: Played some more now, easily own Very Hard AI at this point.
Gotten used to much of the things mentioned above, here's my current issues: * Using T for your whole army feels weird. Even with my finger on F constantly, it just feels very far. Again, probably just need more training. I especially find it hard to select new units and add to my army, shift+t feels VERY far. * Noticed something great about the camera keys: I keep my APM up. If I have nothing else to do, I've started just jumping around checking my bases. Somehow, this makes it feel like the game is moving slower, because you're keeping up with your inject progress better. * I can't believe I haven't used more control groups before. So easy to harass with muta when I have them all on V, and so easy to attack their front while they are hunting my mutas in the back. Won't be close to as easy against real players, but I didn't even use to do such things against AI.
@Tobberoth: Thanks for writing that all up! If T is too much of a reach for your whole army, consider swapping it with the R or G control groups.
Don't rest your thumb on alt, do it on space bar like you are. You don't want your hand curled that much! When you say "Base Cams" you mean the Alt+Q,W,A,S,D,F cams right?
Mouse buttons, ha ha ha. Switching is like one giant 3-train collision in your brain for the first like 10-15 games. I always imagined myself clutching my head and just running around shouting "AHHHHH" when I got especially frustrated. Made me laugh and let me re-focus.
As for feeling your AMP stay fast, I find that when I watch IdrA's stream, I can think as fast as he is (not that I have his sense for timings, but I can easily keep up with his actions including thinking of what the next one is), but I can't execute near as fast. When I'm playing sometimes my mind starts moving slower, waiting for my hands to keep up. With the layered camera, moving and checking is so instant, I think it helps keep the brain working at max. But this is just my own mad theory .
I'm glad it's working well for you. Hopefully you can get your base set up time to be really fast. As for shift being a pain, maybe try not tippin your hand in so far?
After you've had some more practice with it, if you have any suggestions for improvements I'd love to discuss them. Keep us filled in how it's going for you.
@Limesareoranges: The CC's are placed on your mouse for the Pro layout.
I love the new layout, although I have not yet mastered it. However, I have a question. I am playing Protoss and with my old hotkey setup (standard) I loved to use a lot of control groups for my tech, so in the beginning my core would be on 6, so I could check my warpgate all the time and later I would have for example on 5 robo, on 6 my forges, on 7 twilight council, 8 bay or archives etc..
So, the question is, how do I keep track of my running upgrades and the chronoboost usage on them. Do I have to come back with Alt + A to my main all the time and look actively on the progress bar and the building? Or do I have to hotkey all my tech on mouse 4 together with my nexus and then click on the building portraits in the control group?
But after all, I really like the layout, harassment is absolutely awesome with it, everything is so easily accessible and just perfectly thought out. Thanks a lot man, keep up the good work! <3
Edit: Regarding my question, I see often times a lot of pros (MC comes to mind) who don't bind tech at all. How do they cope with keeping track of every upgrade?
@Kuba: You can use a "tech cam", for instance, making 1 your tech cam and 2 your proxy cam. Clicking from a control group would be really inefficient. It also is good if you build your tech in view of a nexus, so you can use those as tech cams as well. I guess you could drop some army control groups for tech control groups, but the protoss control group layout uses every control group well, so that would be a shame. Maybe have a tech on G, and just rely on manual selection for colossus control?
I'm glad you're liking the rest of it so well! Rock 'em.
EDIT: How do the pros do it? Well, I have a timer in my head, just from playing enough, I just feel when an upgrade should be done. I imagine they do the same, except they're even better at it since they play 20x as much as I do. A tech cam isn't a bad alternative, though, especially one as easy as pressing 1 to check. It will even help you develop your own ability to feel timings. Not to mention, a tech cam or two is actually much faster for placing chronoboosts mid-battle. Tap 1, mouse 5, F, click, double-tap space, and tada, you're back to your battle while keeping your chronos tight. You can do that REALLY fast with practice.
Oh well, just tried the "tech cam" idea in two games vs the computer and I have to admit, it feels really intuitive and simple. Thanks a lot man, now I can go in to hardcore practice mode and master the layout perfectly! =)
@Limesareoranges: The CC's are placed on your mouse for the Pro layout.
I REALLY like the pro layout, I practised all day with it vs AI and played 3 ladder games. Maybe its just my mouse or just me, but I HATE using my thumb to click on those pesky buttons. It's just not natural. My alternative was to put my CC and OC's on the "R" key instead of starports and techlabs and just add those to "spacebar" with the racks and factory. Also I removed the techlabs from the control group and just used my 6th base cam for it because I never go into a 6 base scenario.
Wow this looks really awesome to me, i'd love to try this out when i get home from my holidays! <3 However i've got one question for you, i've had problems in the past rebinding keys to mouse 4/5 , my logitech G500 seems to weirdly not support this. Or is there something special i need to do to get it working?
On January 05 2012 06:23 Qiw wrote: Wow this looks really awesome to me, i'd love to try this out when i get home from my holidays! <3 However i've got one question for you, i've had problems in the past rebinding keys to mouse 4/5 , my logitech G500 seems to weirdly not support this. Or is there something special i need to do to get it working?
Do you have the official drivers installed for your mouse? Usually, Microsofts preinstalled drivers won't work properly with more than 3 mouse buttons.
Go to logitechs site and make sure you have the latest drivers installed.
On January 05 2012 06:23 Qiw wrote: Wow this looks really awesome to me, i'd love to try this out when i get home from my holidays! <3 However i've got one question for you, i've had problems in the past rebinding keys to mouse 4/5 , my logitech G500 seems to weirdly not support this. Or is there something special i need to do to get it working?
I had this same problem with this mouse. You need to either: 1. download the "logitech gaming software" program and use it to rebind the O & P keys to your mouse buttons, or, 2. manually change the "hotkeys" in the SCII menu to use your mouse buttons instead of O & P to create/add/select these control groups
On January 05 2012 06:23 Qiw wrote: Wow this looks really awesome to me, i'd love to try this out when i get home from my holidays! <3 However i've got one question for you, i've had problems in the past rebinding keys to mouse 4/5 , my logitech G500 seems to weirdly not support this. Or is there something special i need to do to get it working?
I had this same problem with this mouse. You need to either: 1. download the "logitech gaming software" program and use it to rebind the O & P keys to your mouse buttons, or, 2. manually change the "hotkeys" in the SCII menu to use your mouse buttons instead of O & P to create/add/select these control groups
You can also bind mouse 4/5 to the "alternate" hotkey for those control groups, allowing you to use O, P, mouse4, and/or mouse5 to access these hotkeys.
@FoxyMayhem: My mouse 4 & 5 are directly under my thumb, but I find it hard to use them as quickly as I would tapping with my left hand. 4, 5, tab, tab, oh I need to chrono, 4f, 5 tab, click seems a bit long. I do like the tech cam that you suggested to Kuba though.
Also, thanks again for the excellent layout (Protoss Pro), I find that I use my camera hotkeys a lot more (previously only used about 3) though I am still missing my 4 control groups for tapping a bit (Nexus, Gateways, Robo/Stargate, Tech) but love the way you have setup the army hotkeys - definitely much more efficient when microing. Will keep you posted on how I find it as I get more used to the hotkeys. Any ETA on when we can expect those "training" clips?
@Kuba: How do you find the tech cam working for you? I think it is an excellent idea to keep track of of your upgrades, but requires additional selecting of buildings when you want to go for the next set of upgrades.
@Qiw: I also had a Logitech mouse and as the other posters mentioned, you need to get their drivers ad then just remap your mouse buttons to O & P to it ti work.
On January 03 2012 19:55 Tobberoth wrote: It sure looks interesting and effective, and I already did switch from Standard to Grid in Season 2 so I don't think it would be a problem for me. However, I'm sort of in doubt. While it looks and sounds great, the detail is lacking a bit. You're clearly not an amazing player yourself, which doesn't stop the layout from being great, but it would probably help your credibility to have at least a few master players make videos of them using it and explaining what they like about it.
I personally hate moving my hand when playing because it will lead to misclicks. While I'm a strong proponent of backspace-inject, I have often had issues with it (because of lacking queens) and I'm not using it as well as I used to. All of this combined means I have a lot of motivation to try your setup... but it's hard to motivate relearning a hotkey setup over a week when all I have is your promise that it's effective
If you have contact with master players using it, please let me know how they feel about it, it would definitely help me get on it.
I am a masters player that has used it longer than anyone else has...and I promise you...it is WAY easier than...well...everything else.
The inject method used by the Darkgrid is initially extremely weird. It takes some time to get accustomed to, but, once it's there, it feels faster than the backspace method. Unit ability control is also easier, considering it's all on 'f' and 'e'....
Is there anything specifically you'd like to ask? Or...just my general opinion?? If the latter...it's effing amazing, put simply.
On January 04 2012 01:23 FoxyMayhem wrote: Glad you're interested, tobberoth!
I have been contacted by about 10 masters players who have switched. Every one has liked it, most saying they love it. Most recently, I was contacted by a high EU masters Terran who was so excited by it, and loved it so much, that he's going to help me produce around 8 tutorial videos (what we have planned so far) showing how to practice most effectively, and how to get the most out of the layout.
If you use the pro layout, use the Zerg-style camera assignment for the alt-cams. Once I update the layouts they will all be like the zerg one.
On January 03 2012 19:55 Tobberoth wrote: It sure looks interesting and effective, and I already did switch from Standard to Grid in Season 2 so I don't think it would be a problem for me. However, I'm sort of in doubt. While it looks and sounds great, the detail is lacking a bit. You're clearly not an amazing player yourself, which doesn't stop the layout from being great, but it would probably help your credibility to have at least a few master players make videos of them using it and explaining what they like about it.
I personally hate moving my hand when playing because it will lead to misclicks. While I'm a strong proponent of backspace-inject, I have often had issues with it (because of lacking queens) and I'm not using it as well as I used to. All of this combined means I have a lot of motivation to try your setup... but it's hard to motivate relearning a hotkey setup over a week when all I have is your promise that it's effective
If you have contact with master players using it, please let me know how they feel about it, it would definitely help me get on it.
I am a masters player that has used it longer than anyone else has...and I promise you...it is WAY easier than...well...everything else.
The inject method used by the Darkgrid is initially extremely weird. It takes some time to get accustomed to, but, once it's there, it feels faster than the backspace method. Unit ability control is also easier, considering it's all on 'f' and 'e'....
Is there anything specifically you'd like to ask? Or...just my general opinion?? If the latter...it's effing amazing, put simply.
Thank you, your general opinion is definitely good enough
Personsally, I can now win against hard GTAI (though not as easily as before), and I've started working on the multitask trainer. I've beaten Very Easy twice and will start working on Easy today. I feel like when I can beat Multitask Trainer on normal, I will probably be performing better than I did using grid, so I will probably start laddering again at that point.
Atm, I already feel my macro is better than before because the base cams and the injection method makes all forms of macro control better, so easy to jump between bases and check saturation, progress of injects, upgrades etc. My only issue atm is army control, since I'm still uncomfortable with shift+t, will probably move main army to R and lings to T instead. I'm also unsure about having the scout on 5, thinking of maybe putting it on 3 or 4 instead to make it easier to jump to quickly.
Do you use the Pro config as is, or have you tweaked it yourself?
Glad it's working for you guys. That protoss army control was so much fun to design. It's a lot easier than the other races since the terran and zerg compositions tend to change a lot from game to game. I have to optimize it to be good for changing things, where I can optimize protoss control based off that consistency.
About mouse 4/5: You want to use the Logitech Drivers to remap it to O and P. If you have the onboard drivers, the ones you can just plug in anywhere and you keep your settings, having the mouse produce O and P reduces the chance that a new computer will not recognize the 4/5 mouse button input -- reduces the change to almost Zero. Most it's just a precautionary measure, though.
Shift+t is a reach for you, Tobberoth? Hm. Well, You want to be able to reach your lings quickly, and you frequently have to add to that control group, so I suggest keeping the lings on R and placing the army on G. Also, I always place my scounting worker on 3. The 5 is for like overseers later on.
Amaterasu has unbound Hold (W) and Move (Which was bound to M, so it's completely out of the way, he's just being ocd). I'm considering moving hold to A and moving patrol to W -- I often tell my overloard to stop when selecting between it and the hatch to make a new worker. Aside from that, I don't know if he's made more. Have you made some you haven't told me about, Ama? *suspicious eyes*
On the training videos, I don't have an ETA, I'm sorry. If everything works out, they should be great though, we just don't have a time schedule we're working on. I'm going to ask that EU dude to start on one, though, so we can work out the kinks of production.
I might even work on the "good habits" one tonight!
I'm considering moving hold to A and moving patrol to W
Definitely agree with this. As a protoss player the only time I use hold position is for the zealot when walling off against zerg. Patrol is used more frequently when scouting for expansions, phoenixes on patrol, etc.
Wow thanks for the great replies about my mouse problem, i will try this in 10 days or so when i get home, i'll post my thoughts when i do <3 keep up the good work
Giving this a try, feels pretty natural and fluid at first, alot better then blizzard setting. Kind of frustrating to rework my muscle memory, try to hit B for build but instead get zoomed back to my main x.x. Hopefully it wont take to long to get use this setting.
On January 06 2012 10:00 Edso wrote: Giving this a try, feels pretty natural and fluid at first, alot better then blizzard setting. Kind of frustrating to rework my muscle memory, try to hit B for build but instead get zoomed back to my main x.x. Hopefully it wont take to long to get use this setting.
Edso, it takes a couple of games to get used to the new layout, but it is definitely worth while as you will see that you mostly alternate fingers in pressings keys with almost no hand movement necessary at all. Really great!
@Limesareoranges: The CC's are placed on your mouse for the Pro layout.
I REALLY like the pro layout, I practised all day with it vs AI and played 3 ladder games. Maybe its just my mouse or just me, but I HATE using my thumb to click on those pesky buttons. It's just not natural. My alternative was to put my CC and OC's on the "R" key instead of starports and techlabs and just add those to "spacebar" with the racks and factory. Also I removed the techlabs from the control group and just used my 6th base cam for it because I never go into a 6 base scenario.
Do you have any other suggestions for the CC's?
Limesareoranges, I also found "tapping" with Mouse 4 and 5 to be awkward, especially if you are really fast. It could be that my thumb is just not as dexterous as it should be to do this, or because of the positioning of the buttons on my mouse. I find that I have to move my hand to a less comfortable grip if I want to quickly alternate between mouse 4 and 5.
What I have done is to map my scroll up and scroll down to O and P respectively in my mouse software which if find works great. Not sure about the control groups for Terran, but for Protoss they are great for managing your army and I would recommend not changing them if you have to.
@Limesareoranges: The CC's are placed on your mouse for the Pro layout.
I REALLY like the pro layout, I practised all day with it vs AI and played 3 ladder games. Maybe its just my mouse or just me, but I HATE using my thumb to click on those pesky buttons. It's just not natural. My alternative was to put my CC and OC's on the "R" key instead of starports and techlabs and just add those to "spacebar" with the racks and factory. Also I removed the techlabs from the control group and just used my 6th base cam for it because I never go into a 6 base scenario.
Do you have any other suggestions for the CC's?
Limesareoranges, I also found "tapping" with Mouse 4 and 5 to be awkward, especially if you are really fast. It could be that my thumb is just not as dexterous as it should be to do this, or because of the positioning of the buttons on my mouse. I find that I have to move my hand to a less comfortable grip if I want to quickly alternate between mouse 4 and 5.
What I have done is to map my scroll up and scroll down to O and P respectively in my mouse software which if find works great. Not sure about the control groups for Terran, but for Protoss they are great for managing your army and I would recommend not changing them if you have to.
I don't have a mouse that has 2 extra buttons so I was trying to remap those 2 buttons to something else, didn't work so great, think I will just try out basic.
Edso, modify Pro's control groups to match basic, and keep using the Layered Camera keys. Those help so much! The final version will not have "Basic", it will only have "Mouse" and "No Mouse", both with layered camera keys.
I have to say, for all the work I've put into this, hearing you guys love on it makes me smile big. I like that scroll wheel idea, MilExo, I wish my mouse supported that, I'd move even more control groups to my mouse, ha ha ha.
FoxyMayhem, thanks for all the effort you put in, it is really great. Another thing you can do with the scroll wheel that is nice is "Pylon Cam" and "Warp Gates" as this makes reinforcing the army very fast
Thanks a lot for this layout FoxyMayhem <3. Could you please write down (or screenshot) the hotkeys for Protoss and Terran, because the hotkey file doesn't work for Mac? If you only want to do one (because that's a lot of work) the Terran one would be the most important for me
On January 08 2012 21:25 ZeVi wrote: Thanks a lot for this layout FoxyMayhem <3. Could you please write down (or screenshot) the hotkeys for Protoss and Terran, because the hotkey file doesn't work for Mac? If you only want to do one (because that's a lot of work) the Terran one would be the most important for me
The hotkey file does work for mac. To find it, make a custom hotkey thing first and save it, and that will show the hotkey file close to your replay file thing. eg user - app support - blizzard - sc2 - numbers ect.
Basically after you create your own custom hotkey the folder will show up and you can drag the file into there, then select it in sc2
I have been using F1 as "center camera" and F2>F7 for creating the base cameras. For me I find this is more intuitive, feels less clumsy, is faster, and allows me to assign " ` " (tilde) to the function of "esc" to cancel in quick reach.
I have been using space as "Center camera on selection" and it's working wonderfully! now my thumb is almost exclusively camera control (alt and space) which makes it easier to remember in my head.
Your Optimus Grid Layout is awesome, many thanx. I only had to tweak it a little bit because I don't like to have all of my production on one button, I can't believe doing that took me like 2 hours, so your work is appreciated.
I'll add those instructions to the OP, -Host, thanks.
Are you using a modified Optimus layout, Yam?
That's an interesting modification, pure. I see how it makes sense. However, since one only uses the center camera on location function 6-10 times in a game, I still recommend for most people that they use space as a control group.
On January 09 2012 21:53 FoxyMayhem wrote: I'll add those instructions to the OP, -Host, thanks.
Are you using a modified Optimus layout, Yam?
That's an interesting modification, pure. I see how it makes sense. However, since one only uses the center camera on location function 6-10 times in a game, I still recommend for most people that they use space as a control group.
Thanks Princess! What race do you play?
I play Terran, for me having almost all of the production in one key it sure makes easy setting the rally points, but I tend to forget building from the factory and the starport, that's why I like having them in different keys .
That's odd, because tabbed production usually helps players remember to produce from those structures better. Whenever they think "produce unit" from any of the structures, having them all on the same hotkey becomes a cue to produce from all of the structures, so the mental command "produce unit" becomes "execute production cycle".
I'm glad to know you play terran, though, since it's unit hotkeys are more flexible than protoss, so it's not so big of a deal.
On January 10 2012 22:07 FoxyMayhem wrote: That's odd, because tabbed production usually helps players remember to produce from those structures better. Whenever they think "produce unit" from any of the structures, having them all on the same hotkey becomes a cue to produce from all of the structures, so the mental command "produce unit" becomes "execute production cycle".
I'm glad to know you play terran, though, since it's unit hotkeys are more flexible than protoss, so it's not so big of a deal.
Maybe it's because i'm slow, it's like I'm making marines, then something happens, so I switch my attention to that, then I have to micro (for example)... Then I forget to produce >_>, mainly because while something like that happens I feel like it's too much to go back to production, use tab, then the letter to produce and tab again and the letter (idk it's easier for me to remember numbers than use tab). But seriously, with your grid layout now I can build easier and do other stuff faster, I know this will help increase my apm for sure, I just need to play more.
Okay, so I've been toying around with this now for about fifteen minutes. So this is not a thoroughly researched opinion, but some things that keeps bugging me, however I'm not sure this is something that affects anybode else but me since I'm using a Norwegian keyboard with that layout.
1. You have no documentation of sorts, the videos are a great explanation, but I still feel they are a bit lacking. Might just be me being horrible at picking up new stuff, but hey, something to consider 2. When you press Ctrl to add units to control groups and such, lifebars are not shown when Ctrl is pressed, and it is very annoying since it keep flashing the life bars which are highly distracting. 3. (I'm reasonably sure this is because of my non-American keyboard) The key next to one (`/~) doesn't work. For me it's bound to the key next to the period.
While writing I decided to test this stuff out by changing my keyboard layout from Norwegian to English. Soeh, here is my non-edit edit:
1. N/A 2. Still happens. 3. Ironically this also does the same as pressing Ctrl for me. I wonder if this is because I switched keyboard layout mid-game, I'll double check.
1. N/A 2. Same thing. 3. Same.
Uh, this is really funky. I downloaded your settings, double checked by deleting it and reloading it and all this. Still these weird "bugs". Does anybody have any idea why?
Actual edit: So I removed the offending keybindings, and now it works great. However, I'm not sure why it didn't just do the normal thing. For me both "Show All Life Bars", "Show Your Life Bars" and "Show Enemy Life Bars" were bound to å, æ, | and Ctrl respectively. Weird.
Third edit: So, I'm a bit confused as to why the base cams are organized the way they are. Right now, going QWE (first row) - ASD (second row) is by far faster than going QWD (first row) - ASF (second row), at least for me. Why do it this way? I do not see a good reason for it.
Furthermore, my last method which was binding the Cycle Base Cam was bound to Caps Lock, which also feels a lot faster when simply cycling for Injects. However, the base cams are awesome for quickly looking at the bases it's bloody awesome.
Layouts Updated! >Show all lifebars has been moved to '
>Basic Layout Removed
>Pro Layout Renamed
>Mouseless Pro Layout added and renamed
>Based on player feedback, control groups are now bound differently. >>Fixed an issue where it was hard to reach the main army >>Made Caster bindings more efficient >>Removed dependence on a mechanic that Blizzard removed in the previous patch >>Calculated optimized bindings for separate production structures (instead of having all production on one key) for those who find it too hard to change.
>Updated FAQ
>Added Printer Friendly Layouts
>Removed old layout downloads
>Added new layout downloads to skydrive
>Changed all naming from Optimus to Darkgrid (Since the mods never renamed the thread, I figured I'd just embrace it, ha ha ha)
I want to get proper tutorial videos done, guys, I know you all want them. I've seen a specialist about my wrists, and the treatments seem to be helping! We'll see if the improvement continues. It's thanks to them that I was able to get these updates done. We'll just see what happens.
As for those already playing 1.3, it's your choice whether you want to use the new unit bindings or not. They are more efficient, but it's not too extreme, so it's up to you. Please report any difficulties you find.
@sondrizzle: Unfortunately, I cannot make layouts for every language keyboard, as getting tutorial videos out would probably be a better use of time. If you can get the layout to work for your keyboard by rebinding them, awesome, post the file and I'll added to the skydrive so others with your keyboard can download.
The Ctrl causing lifebars to change was originally intended to help train users to quit using ctrl as the primary bind key, and instead switch to alt to reduce hand movement. As of version 1.3, this isn't really that helpful, so it needed to be removed. I just forgot/got used to it. It is fixed in the new layout downloads.
As for the base cams, two reasons: 1) QWD is a bit more ergonomic than QWE, conforming to the natural arch of your hand, and 2) Inject is on E for zergs, and cannot have a camera key mapped over it.
As for using base cam for inject, I used to, and so did Amaterasu, a masters Zerg player. Once he switched to the layered camera inject and had it practiced, he said it's faster and more accurate. Base cam is easier to learn, but does not provide the consistency (you always begin your injects at the same base), speed (you can inject six hatcheries in 1.3 seconds or less, which is almost impossible and wearing if you're trying to hit the same key that fast versus rolling your fingers like you do with the layered camera inject), and control (you can skip hatcheries where the queen died without slowing down).
Hope that helps a bit? Good luck with the language keyboard issues.
No problem with the settings, all you really need is to mention that users with international keyboards probably should change their keyboard setting to use an English keyboard layout to correctly insure that the buttons corresponds to where they are actually placed on the keyboard, and do the following:
1. Open the Menu 2. Open Hotkeys 3. Go to Global -> Unit Management 4. Unbind all the Show Life Bar (four of them) 5. ???? 6. Profit!
Granted, I have only tested this for myself, but it seems to to the trick for me. Also, with the updated and new settings this should be a non-issue.
As with the inject, I think this is a matter of size of hands and flexibility. And furthermore, once you've pressed Shift + E you can move have a base bound to Alt + E, I just tried. So as long as you keep pressing Shift you can have the camera keys bound to literally anything it seems. I think this is because that holding Shift holds that spell/ability until Shift is released.
Lastly, I think this is a matter of personal preference and how your own hands are. For me, my pointer finger automatically goes to E instead of D. It just flows better. I'm actually betting it has something to do with me playing piano, and a lot with pure instinct. In my mind it just makes more sense to go QWE instead of QWD, so I'll play around with it.
Overall though, I really like it. Funny story: I've been playing with the Grid layout until now an on it making Zerglings is E, so my first test game when I decided to just win, I... made 76 larvae worth of goddamn Overlords instead of Zerglings. Hah, so glad it was not a ladder game.
Edit: However, if you still want the slightly updated profile (which I have to emphasize is only tested for me!), here it is.
You did? Weird, it should be in my public directory. Hang on a sec, I'll upload it elsewhere. Linkz. And yeah, for Norwegian, but I think it's the same as nearly every other keyboard except for some minute changes in key placement.
any real high masters or gms who tried this out? how much time will it need, to be 100% on the same level? i guess a lot more than 20-30 games if youre high enough. even though ive got some motivation because im used to click on the minimap a lot and furthermore i dont use camera hotkeys.
a thing that makes me wonder is that no proplayers play with those or such keyboard adjustments (at least i know none). but in theory youre right, it should be more efficient.
On January 18 2012 18:53 doggy wrote: any real high masters or gms who tried this out? how much time will it need, to be 100% on the same level? i guess a lot more than 20-30 games if youre high enough. even though ive got some motivation because im used to click on the minimap a lot and furthermore i dont use camera hotkeys.
a thing that makes me wonder is that no proplayers play with those or such keyboard adjustments (at least i know none). but in theory youre right, it should be more efficient.
gonna try it out a bit
I'd say your rank is irrelevant, how long you've used your setup however is. Regardless, breaking habits are always hard. It took me far more than 30 games to get as good at using darkgrid as using normal grid, but it's still not a big investment in time. Only playing a few hours in the afternoons, it took me about 3 days. First day, I went from not being able to do my opening on fast speed, to being able to win against medium computer on faster. Second day, I was back to beating GTAI on hard, so I was close to my original skill but had some issues controlling my army and sometimes had to think for a few seconds when doing something not too common. At the end of the third day, I felt more or less ready to ladder. It took me about 5 days before I felt it would feel akward going back to grid and I was sure I was playing better with darkgrid.
Your mileage may vary, but if you play several games a day, there's no way it will take more than a week until you're completely accustomed to it.
Tbh, i cant really believe you guys speaking about 20-30 games needed to change. ive got like 3k-4k games so far, thats a lot. Just for example, a few months ago where i just did some very sligh hotkey adjustments (like other key for burrow, or just 1-2 more unitcontrolgrps), it took me days to get used to it. i would say, about 20-30 games at least. and still after 50 games - if youre in huge pressure you cant think what u need to type i still used the old hotkeys sometimes. its really about muscle memory, and that isnt changed after such a short time.
just my experience in the past with changing keys. i also think there is a reason that really many pros (e.g. zergs) still use very inefficient way to lets say inject. but - i really would like to know the hotkey setup of current topplayers, would be really interesting
On January 19 2012 20:33 doggy wrote: Tbh, i cant really believe you guys speaking about 20-30 games needed to change. ive got like 3k-4k games so far, thats a lot. Just for example, a few months ago where i just did some very sligh hotkey adjustments (like other key for burrow, or just 1-2 more unitcontrolgrps), it took me days to get used to it. i would say, about 20-30 games at least. and still after 50 games - if youre in huge pressure you cant think what u need to type i still used the old hotkeys sometimes. its really about muscle memory, and that isnt changed after such a short time.
just my experience in the past with changing keys. i also think there is a reason that really many pros (e.g. zergs) still use very inefficient way to lets say inject. but - i really would like to know the hotkey setup of current topplayers, would be really interesting
It's a big difference between slight adjustments and a complete adjustment such as this. Your muscle memory doesn't kick in in the same way because you're not holding your hands in the same way and you're not doing the common movements your body is used to.
While it's much much more to get used to, it definitely makes old habits less of an issue.
Shift+t is a reach for you, Tobberoth? Hm. Well, You want to be able to reach your lings quickly, and you frequently have to add to that control group, so I suggest keeping the lings on R and placing the army on G. Also, I always place my scounting worker on 3. The 5 is for like overseers later on.
Amaterasu has unbound Hold (W) and Move (Which was bound to M, so it's completely out of the way, he's just being ocd). I'm considering moving hold to A and moving patrol to W -- I often tell my overloard to stop when selecting between it and the hatch to make a new worker. Aside from that, I don't know if he's made more. Have you made some you haven't told me about, Ama? *suspicious eyes*
Wait wait...I unbound stop, 'cause it's totally useless for Z. I use hold all the time when I go mutas for the ez magic box.
On January 20 2012 11:14 9-BiT wrote: I can't install this with mac, can someone help me a bit more? i found the folder, but it's a text file, and I can't find it in SC2
Have you got a skype or anything? I can walk you through it, but basically download the darkgrid setup you want to use. Then go to Library - Application Support - Blizzard - StarCraft2 - Accounts -########### - Hotkeys, then drag the file into the hotkeys section. Just make sure the file you have ends in .SC2Hotkeys. Then on SC2, log into your account, select Hotkeys, and it SHOULD be there.
On January 21 2012 00:45 9-BiT wrote: I have it in there, and it does end in .hotkeys, it's in the correct folder, doesn't appear though :/ Really excited to use darkgrid :D
And I have skype, if you think you could fix it i'll pm it to you.
It should end in .SC2Hotkeys - exactly like that. For me it's written as "Darkgrid 1-3b Zerg by FoxyMayhem.SC2Hotkeys "
Have you used more than one account on your computer for SC2 because you could have put the hotkeys file into the wrong account. PM me your skype if it's still iffy, I live in Japan which is GMT+9, i'll be up for the next 6 hours or so.
Edit: Ah! My darkgrid hotkey file wasn't popping up either, try changing the name to something like Darkgrid123, I think our macs may just not like the name.....
Hey FoxyMayhem, I have to say it one more time: I LOVE THE LAYOUT!! I am a mid masters protoss player and I am using the mouse enhanced layout since a couple of months now, had a few struggles here and there, but now, as I got used to it, it's just pure perfection in gameplay, like, seriously. =)
However, I just saw these new vids and reworked layouts, so I have a couple of questions: 1. Why did u change the hotkeys for colossus and templar? I find it quite comfortable to use three for my templar, so I would like to hear the reason for this change. 2. Regarding the camera keys, why did u change q and w from xelnaga towers to first and second base? I mean, at first I did not quite get the sense of xelnaga hotkeys, but now, after playing for quite some time, I probably could not live without them, they're just so helpful, for example for pulling back units occupying them, or when u catch on the minimap a red dot flying through for half a second, it just helps a lot from my point of view. 3. What does the "camera on selection" on tilde do? I could not quite figure it out yet and the video regarding protoss layouts somewhat cuts of there? Or did I just misunderstand it?
Oh well, now there are really a couple of questions. I would really appreciate it if u find time to answer them. :D
Deep respect for the insanely good work, it changed my StarCraft experience a lot and improved my gameplay by a really good amount! Keep it up! =)
Hi, I have a Terran hotkey layout inspired from this that maybe could be included in this thread, a mod suggested one inclusive source rather than making another thread.
I'm very firmly rooted into standard hotkeys, I know 'they just don't feel right' isn't a great excuse. Darkgrid has tempted me on multiple occasions so I thought about changing standard radically with the idea of keeping strain on the keyboard hand to a minimum. Without risk of making a terrible layout by modifying too much and for the sake of not having to break too much muscle memory all I really wanted was to eliminate having to use keys like P (patrol and air defense upgrades.... planetary) but a few other conveniences fell in place. So, from the top:
Camera Hotkeys, if you're not using these you should. F1 all the way to F8, single click of the F-Key to snap or jump to camera position. -Shift+# to set camera position point
idle worker gets unbound, bind this to ` (left of 1)
__Problem Hotkeys__ P. Patrol moved to Q L. Lift-off/Land to 'U' for up! P. Upgrade Planetary Fortress to 'J' P. Air Defense upgrade in Armory to 'C' I. Blueflame upgrade to 'Y' U. Build Bunker made easier relocated to Z T. In line with the bunker relocation, moved to X O. Load SCVs into CC to F L. Load Bunker/Medivac to F
This eliminates, as far as I can see, any common hotkeys needing awkward botton presses/combos, please PM me if you think anything could be improved.
Now the interesting part (interesting as it gets), Ctrl+7 and upwards to assign control groups is pretty awkward, either you have to really strain or use Right Ctrl. I'm lazy and do not like this so I've moved them to Space, Alt and Caps lock. I macro with 3 different keys so I'm staying with it how it is, however anyone could move it to where idle worker is on ` (next to 1). This is a pretty radical change for me that I haven't tried but I see no reason why it wouldn't work, it's only going to make more hotkeys accessible.
By all means this can be modified to preference, if you do so I would love to hear about it.
Sorry for the Hijacking of this thread, please let me know if you would consider putting it up in the OP as I feel this is what I was looking for someone to have done for me even though it's pretty simple, my nooby self thinks it's revolutionary and it fits in slightly with the idea of Darkgrid with minising movement and keeping keys in easy to reach places. It definitely isn't anywhere near as developed as Darkgrid but seems to tick all the boxes from a standard players perspective. But maybe it can be considered on par with Darkgrid
Did I say I <3 Darkgrid
TL;DR?
8, 9, 0 Control unit hotkeys rebound to Space, Alt, Capslock. Freeing up so many hotkeys for those who ignore 8, 9 and 0 like myself Patrol changed to Q Land/lift changed to U Planetary upgrade to J Load Bunder/Medivac to F
and other such improvements.
If anyone would be interested in making Z or P equivalents, let me know! I might have to create my own thread.
Looking for any feedback on this at all, I would be enthused to hear there is a calling for this or any criticisms.
Hey Heafmo! I will link this post in the OP. I think it's great that your optimizing standard. Please upload the hotkey file so others can download it without manual adjustment.
Hey Kuba! 1. What finger do you use to select 3? I just found G to be more natural, but if you comfortably select 3 with your ring finger, then it's just as good or perhaps a tiny bit better.
2. Stronger lategame base management. Not worth it to retrain your muscle memory, though. Perhaps I should revert... is 4 base cams enough? Do you use the base cams regularly?
3. Watch the Zerg inject video. It's not polished, but it explains what you need to know.
Thank you for your answers mate! Now I understand the reasons behind the changes. Regarding your questions:
1. I use the middle finger to select 3, and it feels super comfortable for me, so I think I will stick to that, don't want to rework my muscle memory again for such a little change. 2. I use the base cams all...the...time, like, I spam them always when I have nothing to do, and it helps a lot to defend drops and stuff. The thing is that I fell in love with the xelnaga tower cams, and I use them frequently over the course of the game. However, when late game approaches and I get a fifth base, and as at this stage in the game I am all over the map anyways all the time with a lot of different groups of units, I tend to rework q and w to my 5th and 6th then, as there are fights and stuff constantly happening and there is no need to check the towers all the time when u r spread all over the map. =)
I see! That's fantastic. I'll change the layout to match that.
As for hitting 3 with middle, this is why I moved to G. When you feedback, you usually are prepairing to, and so don't need the same level of instant reaction. Players with templar on G will still have their middle finger on storm, so when they are caught by surprise they can get the storms down faster. It's a small change, but one design to keep everything optimized.
On January 21 2012 16:14 FoxyMayhem wrote: An interview with Ama is added at the top of the OP. It answers a lot of questions people have been having.
You're welcome Fencer. What race are you? I'm confident in the control group assignments of Protoss and Zerg, but I have to work with Terran more.
I play Terran. My thoughts: It's really annoying to press Z instead of X to build Techlabs on the production. I also set my Starport to 5 instead of T, so I could cycle 345(MB4), and Tanks on T for TvZ, among other things.
For example, I have my left hand resting on FDSA instead of FEWQ like you do. So, I changed my hotkeys to things like F-S for Barracks, F-D for Depot, and S for Worker. The last one helps a lot.
Conflicting hotkeys were also overlooked. At first everything was fine, then when I changed one hotkey, the game revealed a ton of conflicting hotkeys. I had to re-bind a lot of stuff, mostly spells. I think it doesn't realize it at first, but whenever you change it, it checks the hotkeys.
I love the concept of DarkGrid, the idea of having everything in reach and optimised, it's everything I'm looking for except I'm too lazy to make a shift to any Grid layout when I'm so used to Standard even though its slightly sub-optimal ways can get in the way. Anyone familiar with Terran standard layout might silently gripe about the positioning of the Planetary Fortress upgrade and nonsensical nature of Air Defense Upgrades being on P... Not to mention Patrol on P!
Several times I've contemplated going DarkGrid, instead I eventually spent a good few hours figuring the best way to optimise Terran standard without deviating too much... Just optimising.
The most radical aspect to this layout is the moving of the 8, 9 and 0 control group hotkeys to Space, Alt and CapsLock, see red highlighted keys:
I use 3 for tanks for quick sieges, 2 for Vikings CapsLock for ghosts for a natural feel to keeping them with army and using skills. This leaves 1 and Alt for scouting/harass/drops/upgrade/depot-joe buildings or even just to one half of my army to make surrounds easier.
I don't want to go into too much detail as hotkeys are an expression of preference. Here is a list of all the changes and I will go into some detail as to how they benefit me if I have anything to say other than the obvious 'it's easier to reach'.
- Jump to Camera position is single tap F1-F8, to set positions use Shift modifier. These are a MUST for managing 2+ bases under pressure and they're great for siege lines, rally points and whatever else you can think of. - Patrol on Q - Planetary Fortress on J - Air Defense in Armory on C - Liftoff/Land on U - Load Medi/Bunker/CC on F - Bunker/Turret build on Z and X respectively (This wasn't necessary but it can now be performed quicker using two fingers in a natural motion) - Blueflame upgrade on Y - Spacebar's Jump to last Alert now on 8 for the hell of it - Chat to individual is now accessed with AltGr+Enter (on my keyboard anyway, it's listed as Ctrl+Alt+Enter in the hotkey menu)
Note: Alt will no longer work to show units HP, I have this permanently ON (makes for easier micro)
I hope you enjoyed this if Grid-style isn't for you or you're just an old dog like me. Even if so, I encourage you to think about how it could be optimised for you and your playstyle. There is a simpler layout called Dope as Fuck Terran Hotkeys but I felt this deviated too much from standard and just wasn't for me either.
Also maybe this will inspire someone to create layouts for Protoss and Zerg in a similar vein =] <3 to all,
On January 21 2012 16:14 FoxyMayhem wrote: An interview with Ama is added at the top of the OP. It answers a lot of questions people have been having.
You're welcome Fencer. What race are you? I'm confident in the control group assignments of Protoss and Zerg, but I have to work with Terran more.
I play Terran. My thoughts: It's really annoying to press Z instead of X to build Techlabs on the production. I also set my Starport to 5 instead of T, so I could cycle 345(MB4), and Tanks on T for TvZ, among other things.
For example, I have my left hand resting on FDSA instead of FEWQ like you do. So, I changed my hotkeys to things like F-S for Barracks, F-D for Depot, and S for Worker. The last one helps a lot.
Conflicting hotkeys were also overlooked. At first everything was fine, then when I changed one hotkey, the game revealed a ton of conflicting hotkeys. I had to re-bind a lot of stuff, mostly spells. I think it doesn't realize it at first, but whenever you change it, it checks the hotkeys.
If you're not resting on QWEF, then the changes you made make sense. Resting on QWEF is essential to the layout. I'm curious, what made you change from QWEF to ASDF? There are many part of the layout that are still dependent on the QWEF hand placement to function optimally, even after the changes you made.
The only part of the Terran layout I'm unconfident about is the control groups assignments, everything has proven itself in testing for months. There are no conflicts, the unbindings happened because you moved a more universal hotkey to replace one that covered many specific, non-universal hotkeys.
For other plays, QWEF and the current hotkey layout is recommended.
I will check the techlabs, I might be able to move them to X, if that makes transitioning easier. EDIT: Layouts adjusted, Techlabs are now on X. Thanks for pointing that out!
ah i see thanks. how are the terrans using the layered cameras (and the centre on camera selection control)? im interested in if it made it more efficient for you. At the moment im still using the F keys... =(
Thanks for this layout. I only recently got back into SC2 again after a long break. I am a meer high gold/low plat toss looking to improve. I have been using your layout for 2 days now and I'm liking it so far. It is really quite intuitive - before now I didn't use cameras, but I don't think I could go back now. My macro already 'feels' better' and I think that the multiple control groups will really improve my army control/engagements which I feel are my weakest area. I will keep praciting with it in YABOT for a couple more days then try some laddering. I will report back
On January 22 2012 19:02 Raymano wrote: ah i see thanks. how are the terrans using the layered cameras (and the centre on camera selection control)? im interested in if it made it more efficient for you. At the moment im still using the F keys... =(
It's just for quick movement, it's only zerg which has a specific need for camera keys. Think about how awesome it is though, if your third base is roach-dropped, you just press alt+a (or whereever you decided to put your third) and you're right there, able to defend. Maybe you're doing a push and decide you need some towers in your nat. Alt+w and you're there, just pick the SCVs and build them.
It's just really sweet to be able to go to any base you need to focus on instantly.
On January 22 2012 09:58 FoxyMayhem wrote: Resting on QWEF is essential to the layout. For other plays, QWEF and the current hotkey layout is recommended.
You meant that u rest Your fingers on QWEF, pinky, index, middle, point ? Thats terribly awkward. Am I misunderstanding this? I got fingers on AWF, pinky near shift and ctrl and thumb on space obviously. That feels natural.
On January 22 2012 09:58 FoxyMayhem wrote: Resting on QWEF is essential to the layout. For other plays, QWEF and the current hotkey layout is recommended.
You meant that u rest Your fingers on QWEF, pinky, index, middle, point ? Thats terribly awkward. Am I misunderstanding this? I got fingers on AWF, pinky near shift and ctrl and thumb on space obviously. That feels natural.
From playing non-RTS games I have developed the position similar to yours where my left hand rests on SHIFT, A, W, D and SPACE. The ideal position for this layout is Q, W,E, F, SPACE if I'm not mistaken. This requires you're left hand to be at angle to the keyboard. I find this akward. So instead, I decided to keep using both DarkGrid and my hand positioning. I made one small change that I found suited my hand positioning quite a bit: I swapped Patrol and Attack (so that Attack is on A and patrol on Q). This just feels more natural to me.
Can someone tell me what benefits (if any) I will have from using the layout, and how quickly they should occur? I'm currently feeling very comfortable in my play, but I can't find a way to work in camera hotkeys with my keyboard's distances to the F keys.
So, have any Protoss players switched cold-turkey to this layout, and if so, was it worth it? I want to be more efficient in my play, but I'm not convinced this is worth it.
The interview at the start covers it. Basically speed, using more controls effectively (better mechanics), and ergonomic. Just a LOT of those 3 things, not a little.
Hand rests on the keyboard tipped inward at about 3-8 degrees.
Your mouse buttons need to be set to produce O and P when pressed, or you need to manually rebind the hotkey layout to your mouse.
Warpin is not really used, unfortunately. I couldn't really find a way to work it in effectively, everything is already so shoved together. Perhaps if there's a 1.4.
I have a problem with this setup technically; Ctrl+alt+S/D/F will not work to create camera locations. It works fine with Ctrl+alt+Q/W/A, but not Ctrl+alt+S/D/F. I have tried re-binding, making them alternate or not alternate, but to no avail. Is there a fix for this? I prefer using Ctrl+alt+[letter] instead of Ctrl+shift+[letter] or Shift+alt+[letter].
On January 23 2012 04:23 besneeze wrote: The ideal position for this layout is Q, W,E, F, SPACE if I'm not mistaken.
Isn't it little counterproductive? I tried it and pressing ctrl + any other key led me to twisting my whole hand to the side.
Well, it's actually not that uncommon in RTS to play with the hand tilted. A way of making it easier is to tip the actual keyboard so you don't have to tilt your hand all that much. Also, with darkgrid, you shouldn't use ctrl all that much, it has binds to create controlgroups with alt, so alt+g creates a control group on g, same as ctrl+g. Using alt with this setup is way easier, but harder to get used to.
As for the question on pros, I mentioned darkgrid on Snutes channel and he said he finds it interesting. He's not using it though ^^
On January 23 2012 04:23 besneeze wrote: The ideal position for this layout is Q, W,E, F, SPACE if I'm not mistaken.
Isn't it little counterproductive? I tried it and pressing ctrl + any other key led me to twisting my whole hand to the side.
Well, it's actually not that uncommon in RTS to play with the hand tilted. A way of making it easier is to tip the actual keyboard so you don't have to tilt your hand all that much. Also, with darkgrid, you shouldn't use ctrl all that much, it has binds to create controlgroups with alt, so alt+g creates a control group on g, same as ctrl+g. Using alt with this setup is way easier, but harder to get used to.
As for the question on pros, I mentioned darkgrid on Snutes channel and he said he finds it interesting. He's not using it though ^^
On January 23 2012 04:23 besneeze wrote: The ideal position for this layout is Q, W,E, F, SPACE if I'm not mistaken.
Isn't it little counterproductive? I tried it and pressing ctrl + any other key led me to twisting my whole hand to the side.
Well, it's actually not that uncommon in RTS to play with the hand tilted. A way of making it easier is to tip the actual keyboard so you don't have to tilt your hand all that much. Also, with darkgrid, you shouldn't use ctrl all that much, it has binds to create controlgroups with alt, so alt+g creates a control group on g, same as ctrl+g. Using alt with this setup is way easier, but harder to get used to.
As for the question on pros, I mentioned darkgrid on Snutes channel and he said he finds it interesting. He's not using it though ^^
Alt + space is not a good idea mechanically.
True, toss setup isn't really optimal in this case. Then again, creating a control group is something you do very seldomly, most of the time you'll be using shift anyway.
I'm a platinum toss and I've also created a hotkey setup that works better for me that standard. I won't be switching, but I do have experience with cold turkeying into new setups.
I got mad at zero for being so far away, so I put my control groups on qwert-asdfg to make controlling my army more like touch typing, with unit controls being zxcvb, and spells/units/new buildings being 123456y(plus hnjm for terran).
I prefer it because my hand's base is on asdf, just like it is in typing. I do the same thing for fps and rpgs, moving wasd to esdf so it's more natural.
It usually takes me (there was an intermediate and terrible set of hotkeys I used for a while) about a week to get used to them enough to play, and it's taken maybe three months to no longer need to glance at the keyboard to find keys.
I've never looked back.
If you haven't already made your own setup, learn to use this one, and if you have any qualms with it, change it to your desires! You'll be a better player for it.
EDIT: I moved tab over to alt so that I could use it for warpgate, but now on inspiration from this setup I think I'll move what is now on alt over to tilde so I can use alt as a the modifier key it's meant to be and put base cams on the same keys as my control groups =D
[Zerg]I really want to use this layout since it seems to eliminate my problem with the camera hotkeys (hand stretch wise). But I use a AZERTY keyboard. So I'll need to go through the layouts and change it all a bit. I'll update you with my progress on it and maybe (if you want) I can give you the AZERTY layout.
i mean anything that helps injecting is nice but is it REALLY faster then spacebar and all queens on 1 bind? all you are doing is holding shift and tapping spacebar. not the BEST finger setup but learning it is possible.
i do like how you make more use of keys that are very optimal such as r and q
Yes, the layered inject has been measured and is approximately 30% (430 milliseconds averaged) faster for injecting 6 hatcheries under optimal conditions. With 2 bases the speed difference is minimal.
HOWEVER, the speed boost in ideal conditions is the smallest benefit. Smashing the space bar as fast as was done in the test is much more strenuous than the natural roll the off the Iayered inject method -- people don't base cam inject that fast, it's unnatural feeling, so most base cam injects are actually much slower than the tests.
Even that is not the two biggest advantages. Those are 1) you can easily skip hatches without queens while still injecting close to full speed (unlike base cam inject where you must slow down or have wandering queens, and new hatches have no effect on speed, also quite unlike base cam) and 2) Much, MUCH better and faster base management and harass reaction. This is the only reason other races use the layered cameras, and they still adore it once mastered.
Yes, I plan to update the layout for expansions, and any metagame shifts that significantly effect the layout.
On January 27 2012 08:32 orangesunglasses wrote: i mean anything that helps injecting is nice but is it REALLY faster then spacebar and all queens on 1 bind? all you are doing is holding shift and tapping spacebar. not the BEST finger setup but learning it is possible.
i do like how you make more use of keys that are very optimal such as r and q
Get 4 bases. Get 3 queens. Use your method. Watch your queens become retards. There are ways around this (switching bases much slower, pressing stop after injecting all bases) but overall, using proper camera keys lets you only inject exactly the hatches you want to, with no downside other than learning to do it. While basecam might be slightly faster in a best case scenario, layered cameras are insanely much faster in a less than optimal case.
On January 27 2012 20:06 Czarnodziej wrote: Why there are different sets for both terran/protoss and zergs?
I can't vouch for the OP but it has to do with the mechanics. Terran and protoss have dedicated buildings for their production so they deserve dedicated hotkeys. Also unit wise there are different situations. Protoss needs more units hotkeyed on different hotkeys for better spellcasting and micro. Terran might need more hotkeys for multiple harass (2 medivac drops at once). In other words: It's designed for easier acces for top priority actions. And these actions differ between races.
I've been trying it for a few days (offline) and I changed the hotkeys to fit a AZERTY keyboard. I'm a gold Zerg btw. The things I noticed is that I use camera hotkeys a lot more now and sometimes even do a quick alt+a (q for QWERTY) to get look at my inject progress. Also I definitly think it's worth it to change to this setup (if you have the time/dedication) especially for people like me who even though I have pretty long fingers, I get easily disorientated when I use anything beyond 7 in my control groups or using a camera hotkey. Thank you for this great idea.
I meant there are different hotkey files for 1.terran/protoss and 2. zergs, whereas I think they are almost exactly the same when it comes to camera control and unit commands. Why putting them on 2 different hotkey files? I sometimes play random and this curiosity bothers me a little
On January 27 2012 21:14 Czarnodziej wrote: I meant there are different hotkey files for 1.terran/protoss and 2. zergs, whereas I think they are almost exactly the same when it comes to camera control and unit commands. Why putting them on 2 different hotkey files? I sometimes play random and this curiosity bothers me a little
I've been wondering this as well, can't really think of any good reason why they can't be in one file, which would help players who like to play random, or just switch it up in general.
On January 27 2012 21:14 Czarnodziej wrote: I meant there are different hotkey files for 1.terran/protoss and 2. zergs, whereas I think they are almost exactly the same when it comes to camera control and unit commands. Why putting them on 2 different hotkey files? I sometimes play random and this curiosity bothers me a little
I've been wondering this as well, can't really think of any good reason why they can't be in one file, which would help players who like to play random, or just switch it up in general.
If you download a P/T file, you get a simple Zerg hotkey setup similar to P/T. At least that's what I got
The terran and protoss file is for random players as well. There is only 1 difference (that I remember): the zerg-specific file places the extractor on F W, and the terran protoss file places the extractor on F F, matching the F F for the refinery and assimilator, so gas production is consistent between the races for random players.
The reason zerg's gas is different: F W easier and faster than F F. T and P produce a lot of rax or gateway, but zerg don't produce many spawn pools. In a typical game, that is. They make more extractors than any other structure, so it makes it a lot smoother and faster to put it on the easiest key combo, F W.
Ntwadumela, there's advice in the FAQ, and that interview that should help!
I am using a UK layout keyboard so the ~ key isnt next to the 1, a ` is. The issue I seem to be getting though when remapping it is that sometimes when switching between keyboard layouts it stops working and changes it self to OEM8 for some reason, no idea why. Its driving me insane, because it just does it randomly, sometimes between games it will change. Not quite sure why. Anyone got a solution?
On January 28 2012 01:32 FoxyMayhem wrote: The terran and protoss file is for random players as well. There is only 1 difference (that I remember): the zerg-specific file places the extractor on F W, and the terran protoss file places the extractor on F F, matching the F F for the refinery and assimilator, so gas production is consistent between the races for random players.
I got F W Extractor on zerg, FF on P/T - all of those on P/T file.
i have a question. ive tried to play around with the zerg file for an hour or so. but i cant even figure out how to add all my hatches to a hotkey so i can make units and stuff instead of going to each base, clicking on hatch, making units base by base.
can someone please tell me the basics of this i cant seem to find them anywhere. like how to have hatches on one key to make stuff, and how to add units to the certain keys(ex:infestor for spacebar)
okay thanks, i have another question. for the zerg layout, It says that it is reccommended to hotkey hatches on mouse 4 and queens on mouse 5. i am guessing mouse 4 or 5 are the side buttons on the mouse. i have a steel series sensei so i have the 2 buttons on the side of the mouse. but when i try to hot key the hatches or queens it doesnt work. does anyone else have this problem? or know how to fix it?
Go to hotkeys menu go to "global" then "control groups" and I think 8 and 0 are meant for mouse buttons (in this lay out), don't forget to change the "create control group", "select control group" and "add to control group".
Can you be more specific, Stropheum? What question(s) did he answer poorly and what should he have said?
Thanks for helping, Sennin. O and P are the mouse button control groups, either change your mouse buttons to produce those letters or reassign the hotkeys to your mouse buttons.
~~ This is just some changes I made to this layout, nothing else; so don't TL;DR me ^^ ~~
I've been using your Pro Zerg layout for a while now and I think it is awesome! I used to use grid because it was simple for me to hit all the buttons (because they were all within the same area), it allowed me to be able to play random very efficiently, and it made macroing much easier. When I installed DarkGrid, I was skeptical if it would work for me because I wasn't sure if I would be able to adapt to it. I started out vs. Very Easy AI to basically practice keys, no real macro. Then I said to myself, "hey! why don't I do a cross between two setups that I love!." So I decided to go in and tweek some of the hotkeys in the DarkGrid setup.
What I did in the hotkeys was pretty simple, yet somewhat complicated. I decided to make my hotkeys 1, 2, 3, 4 (respectively) followed by R, T, G, V, Space, 0. The reason for my change was because I felt it was easier to reach when microing my army, and because I don't believe there should be a dedicated Xel'Naga/Creep camera buttons. What I do in-game is hotkey my army to 1-4 (1 being lings/roaches/ultras, 2 being micro-intenstive units, 3 being mutas/corruptors, and 4 being broods). I put my hatcheries on R, tech timings on T, creep on G, harrass on V, all queens on Space, and 0 is open because theres nothing else I hotkey. This allowed me for fast macro (build drone is R-W-W, build mutalisk is R-W-S, etc.), fast injects (Space - E - Shift - Alt - Q - Click - W - Click etc.) and good army management. I do have the Razer DeathAdder, which has those two side buttons as well. What I decided to use the easiest of the buttons to press for was Game Alerts. Since my hand is right there, if I hear the dreaded "Your drones are under attack!" voice, I can press that button and be there instantly. Yes, I do still have my camera buttons (which are a FANTASTIC implementation by the way) but I feel like having it so easily accesible allows me to shave those precious milliseconds. The last of the hotkey changes I made was just something that made it easier for me if I decided to play Random; I changed the Zerg gas to F (like Terran and Protoss are) and the Warren to W. It made it easier to random for me, and it made more sense (W for Warren).
The other thing I did was rebind all tech structures hotkeys to the Grid style ones. So, for example, Metabolic Boost is on Q, and Adrenal Glands is on W. I did this because it was how I remembered it the best, and it still felt very comfortable and fluid.
The final change I made was something that I don't think other people would be able to do, and it is very minor. I, personally, hate my Windows Key. I happen to be VERY lucky and own a BlackWidow Ultimate keyboard, this allows me to change what certain keys do (not macro keys, don't worry). What I did was rebound my Windows Key to my Numpad Multiply Key (something I never use). I then changed my hotkeys so that the Numpad Multiply Key centered on my current selection. This allowed me to quickly make camera spots on my hatcheries by going: *click structure* - Windows Key - Ctrl+Alt - G, etc.)
All in all, I absolutely love this layout to death. Legitimately, it has improved my macro abilities ten-fold. With the small adjustments I made to it, I swear this should be implemented into the game, its just too good. I appreciate all the time you've put into this
I've had a read through and I love some of the ideas here, but I'm unsure about the layered base camera. It seems a little key-heavy as a zerg with injects. I had changed the keybinding for Base Camera to W and effectively do the backspace method, obviously substituting Backspace for W, which I found comfortable, close by hand, and extremely time efficient.
Effectively adding all queens to one group and using shift-V -> w click w click would allow me to have as many hatcheries and queens as I could build without having to worry about camera binding or messing around on the minimap.
I'm scratching my head wondering if it might be possible to set up the W->click method within this layout without compromising it entirely. Any thoughts?
On January 31 2012 14:09 corvandus wrote: I've had a read through and I love some of the ideas here, but I'm unsure about the layered base camera. It seems a little key-heavy as a zerg with injects. I had changed the keybinding for Base Camera to W and effectively do the backspace method, obviously substituting Backspace for W, which I found comfortable, close by hand, and extremely time efficient.
Effectively adding all queens to one group and using shift-V -> w click w click would allow me to have as many hatcheries and queens as I could build without having to worry about camera binding or messing around on the minimap.
I'm scratching my head wondering if it might be possible to set up the W->click method within this layout without compromising it entirely. Any thoughts?
You can do that, question is why would you want to. If you're going to switch to darkgrid anyway, I really don't understand why you would want to stay with the backspace method, one of the main benefits of darkgrid are the layered cams.
With Darkgrid, you can support 6 hatcheries with 6 queens. This might sound like a limitation to you, but it actually isn't, most good players agree that 6 queens are too much since: 1. They cut into your supply, making your army smaller. 2. 6 properly injected hatcheries produce insane amounts of larva. You will generally not need this much.
Instead, you use about 4 queens to inject, and produce macro hatches for the rest of your production. Macro hatches are slightly more expensive than queens but give instead of take supply, require no extra APM to handle, are harder to snipe, and can be placed at mineral lines to act as future bases. Tons of benefits to playing like this, only problem of course being that it works horribly with backspace method since you're pretty much required to have one queen for each hatch, or your injection speed becomes really slow since you have to check each base for a queen before you inject.
Base camera method is key heavy in the sense that you use a lot of keys, but it's extremely fast when you're used to it.
On January 31 2012 14:09 corvandus wrote: I've had a read through and I love some of the ideas here, but I'm unsure about the layered base camera. It seems a little key-heavy as a zerg with injects. I had changed the keybinding for Base Camera to W and effectively do the backspace method, obviously substituting Backspace for W, which I found comfortable, close by hand, and extremely time efficient.
Effectively adding all queens to one group and using shift-V -> w click w click would allow me to have as many hatcheries and queens as I could build without having to worry about camera binding or messing around on the minimap.
I'm scratching my head wondering if it might be possible to set up the W->click method within this layout without compromising it entirely. Any thoughts?
Yeah, don't. Layered base cameras are awesome. Drop at your third? Instantly move there. Queen at your natural dies and you need to inject? Just skip you natural and your queens do go for a walk all over the map. And it is incredibly fast when you get used to it. Injecting is Shift+E -> Alt+QWDA, it's one more button to click for a whole lot of added benefit.
I agree, layered cams are THE reason (that better control groups to a lesser extent) I switched to darkgrid. The camera hotkeys are just too far away for me to reach comfortably. I've been playing around with all three races and found that in general it's handy to have darkgrid to react faster to harrasment. Though for Protoss I don't agree with putting all production on one hotkey. It makes macro a bit hard I think (I just might not be adjusted too well). For Terran I do put starports with my barracks instead of factories for hotkeys. Though it depends on the matchup really.
On February 01 2012 02:43 Sennin wrote: I agree, layered cams are THE reason (that better control groups to a lesser extent) I switched to darkgrid. The camera hotkeys are just too far away for me to reach comfortably. I've been playing around with all three races and found that in general it's handy to have darkgrid to react faster to harrasment. Though for Protoss I don't agree with putting all production on one hotkey. It makes macro a bit hard I think (I just might not be adjusted too well). For Terran I do put starports with my barracks instead of factories for hotkeys. Though it depends on the matchup really.
Whenever I off race as P, I'll just use 6 as the warpgate hotkey...since that's what it is, and put my robos and stargates on the production cycle key (which is a side button on my mouse). Then, I'll assign the first camera hotkey to the pylon I intend to warp-in at. It appears to work so far.
On February 01 2012 02:43 Sennin wrote: I agree, layered cams are THE reason (that better control groups to a lesser extent) I switched to darkgrid. The camera hotkeys are just too far away for me to reach comfortably. I've been playing around with all three races and found that in general it's handy to have darkgrid to react faster to harrasment. Though for Protoss I don't agree with putting all production on one hotkey. It makes macro a bit hard I think (I just might not be adjusted too well). For Terran I do put starports with my barracks instead of factories for hotkeys. Though it depends on the matchup really.
Whenever I off race as P, I'll just use 6 as the warpgate hotkey...since that's what it is, and put my robos and stargates on the production cycle key (which is a side button on my mouse). Then, I'll assign the first camera hotkey to the pylon I intend to warp-in at. It appears to work so far.
Yup, that's how I do it as well, makes it quick and simple, especially if you're used to doing so on the other races.
Terran Barracks * Moved Ghost to W from Q. Ghosts are produced more frequently than Reapers, and so are now given the stronger finger. * Moved Reaper to Q from W. See Above.
Ghost Academy * Moved Research Mobias Rector (Ghost energy) F from C. Placing the most common upgrade on F is good business. * Moved Build Nuke From F to E. See Above.
Thor * Moved 250mm Strike Cannons to F from C. Easier to access.
Battlecruiser * Moved Yamato Cannon to F from C. Easier to access.
Protoss Robotics Bay * Moved Research Extended Thermal lance (Colossus Range) to F from C. Easier to access.
Zerg Corruptor * Moved Corruption to F from C. Helps encourage use and is easier to access.
Nydus Network * Changed Build Nydus Worm to F from E. It was on E previously to prevent accidental construction, but let's face it, when you're placing a Nydus you're pretty focused. With accidents determined to be highly unlikely, it's been moved to the everything key, F, For eazier memorization and use.
Overseer * Changling moved to F from E -- Easier reach and memorization.
Thank you cozzak. Best of luck .
Thanks to Tobberoth, sondrizzle, and Sennin for explaining than (and the enthusiasm :D ).
On February 03 2012 21:34 battleboy wrote: hey i got a problem i cant bind my mouse 4 & 5 buttons does someone know whats the problem with this?
How is it not working, will SC2 not allow you to bind them? If that's the case, try getting the drivers for your mouse. They probably include a program to let you rebind buttons to your mouse, so you can put, for example, P and O on your mouse buttons and then bind SC2 to those buttons instead.
What mouse do you use? Do you have the driver installed, most mouses with extra buttons have an external program you can use to determine the behaviour of those buttons.
Also, in the hotkey menu. Have you tried binding "create hotkey 8" which stands on ctrl+P and rebind it to "ctrl+Forward mouse button".
Im not sure if its worth learning it. Because I always think of the New addon Heart of the Swarm and there are more multiplayer units which could affect a whole change for the darkgrid system or not? Im talking to the zerg layout
On February 04 2012 06:54 blackkiwi wrote: Im not sure if its worth learning it. Because I always think of the New addon Heart of the Swarm and there are more multiplayer units which could affect a whole change for the darkgrid system or not? Im talking to the zerg layout
Darkgrid works for Terran, Protoss and Zerg. Why would an expansion make it stop working for one race when it already works for three? Doesn't matter what they add in HotS, the idea of having Ability 1, 2 and 3 won't change.
You should remember that the basic mechanics won't change at all. The worst thing that could happen is that you need to bind other units to the hotkeys.
I'm trying this out for the first time and I can't seem to get any mouse hotkeys to work. I copied both the mouseless and the regular files to my directory (in case they were mixed up). Neither of them have any mouse hotkeys for the Control Groups section.
any chance of a video for hand positions - in particular im kinda struggling to see how to position my hands to inject for zerg compared to it normally resting on qwef. Am I meant to be moving them or just have more control over my fingers than I apparantly do right now -_-
The layout may have some changes in HotS, but injecting, camera control, and most unis will be completely unchanged. It's totally worth it. (Thanks again guys for helping.)
Mouse Hotkeys must be set manually, or change your mouse drivers to produce O and P when pressed. Updating FAQ.
I'll see if I can't make a good zerg inject video soon, if not tomorrow.
How is it useless. The point of the layout is to optimize your actions. Whether you designed it or not, it is difficult to argue that the DG1.3 layout isn't MORE optimal than the standard grid layout or the default layout. It is not totally useless at all. However, it does take a LOT of work to get used to.
Mighty, you're missing the point my friend. It doesn't matter if you or I came up with it, placing all the control groups on the left side of the keyboard is faster. Same for every change I've made. You didn't make Blizzard's hotkeys, but you learned them, and it made you faster than using a mouse.
In the same way, this will work for you, even if you haven't designed it.
On February 05 2012 06:26 BeJu wrote: Is this not allowed in competative play? I know that changing hotkeys is frowned upon by blizzard so would this be allowed?
That's a ridiculous statement. They gave us the option to change our hotkeys using their own UI.
So far as I'm aware, changing your hotkeys is allowed in all (most?) tournaments, so long as only a single action is bound to a single key (IOW: No multi-action macros).
Nemireck is correct, Blizzard encourages customization but the Term of Service says they can ban you for Macros. This uses no macros.
At one point, 1.3 used thirdparty software to bind the mouse keys as Ctrl and Shift, but I decided then that this had to be tournament ready. While the third party software complied with Blizzard's TOS, tournaments probably would not be okay with third party software aside from mouse drivers, or at least it would cause complications. Darkgrid 1.3 is tournament ready.
Foxy, It has now taken me 3 days of practice and i am now feeling comfortable with this setup. I had been using the previous version which must have helped a great deal but the upgrade is a serious change and its like starting again. Additionally i had many keys swapped around to my own liking but this time (cause i know how much analysis you put into this) i am using your keys for everything.
I have also added shift and alt to two buttons on my mouse to get rid of the awkwardness of the shift+alt inject method. Now i just hold down the two buttons on my mouse and cycle through.
So now my cycle is: mouse button 3 (queens), e (inject larva) hold down mouse buttons 7 and 10 (shift+alt), q, click, w, click, f, click, d, click, s, click, a, click feel like a boss
(for those wondering about the mouse im using, its the Razer Naga (aka the telephone mouse).)
It is so fast and accurate that i keep double checking to see that it actually did what i wanted. It feels weirdly fast
Also i like that you have given us specific tasks for each control group. It makes me hotkey everything and also use those groups. This increases my control, speeds things up and minimises pesky precise clicks needed in micro battles.
Additionally i got promoted from gold to platinum in 4v4 while i was training this setup so its hard to say it made things worse
One final note, the creep cam is excellent! It reminds me to spread creep and so my creep is spreading faster.
Hey k1n6, that changling adjustment was updated in the official download two days ago as well. Check it out, there's a few other rebindings you may want to consider as well.
As for ping, I should put it on alt+G for those who use that method -- I've always used alt+minimap click, so that position was just a throw-away. Updating the files now...
And layouts updated. I took this chance to find the best places for more of those "throwaway" commands. This is the result:
Download the updated layouts or modify yours to match, whichever is easiest for people wanting to use these. I decided to keep it on Shift+Alt+G for now, since Alt can be used in place of Ctrl for setting control groups. Don't want to throw people off.
Hi realy nice thread and idea, I AM using a modified grid with cam hotkeys on space and alt (setting it up with F and H (pylon)) and warpgates on R (very fast roling: F,R, q/w/e, space - produced and back at army with reinforcements already walking)! And I was just curious if there is anything I could enhance.. so I found this Realy glad ppl do this stuff as I see so many pros not realy using smart hotkey setups nor cams. Even Hero GM#6 doesn't have Zealots on a seperate hotkey and sometimes messes it up ^.^
@topic: I watched the Protoss Grid Layout Explanation.
I want to add: Using cycling base cams + chronoboost is very useful for training probes. But with dark grid 1.3 this becomes very difficult. You would press B then the Chronohotkey - that's not intuitiv and especially very slow.
Will study this more... and am looking forward to visit this thread soon again when I find some time. And then probably test this.
On February 06 2012 21:02 Doomtrain2 wrote: Hi realy nice thread and idea, I AM using a modified grid with cam hotkeys on space and alt (setting it up with F and H (pylon)) and warpgates on R (very fast roling: F,R, q/w/e, space - produced and back at army with reinforcements already walking)! And I was just curious if there is anything I could enhance.. so I found this Realy glad ppl do this stuff as I see so many pros not realy using smart hotkey setups nor cams. Even Hero GM#6 doesn't have Zealots on a seperate hotkey and sometimes messes it up ^.^
@topic: I watched the Protoss Grid Layout Explanation.
I want to add: Using cycling base cams + chronoboost is very useful for training probes. But with dark grid 1.3 this becomes very difficult. You would press B then the Chronohotkey - that's not intuitiv and especially very slow.
Will study this more... and am looking forward to visit this thread soon again when I find some time. And then probably test this.
Can't you do it just like with injections? Press nexus group, hold shift, press and release chrono, cycle while clicking?
On February 06 2012 21:02 Doomtrain2 wrote: Hi realy nice thread and idea, I AM using a modified grid with cam hotkeys on space and alt (setting it up with F and H (pylon)) and warpgates on R (very fast roling: F,R, q/w/e, space - produced and back at army with reinforcements already walking)! And I was just curious if there is anything I could enhance.. so I found this Realy glad ppl do this stuff as I see so many pros not realy using smart hotkey setups nor cams. Even Hero GM#6 doesn't have Zealots on a seperate hotkey and sometimes messes it up ^.^
@topic: I watched the Protoss Grid Layout Explanation.
I want to add: Using cycling base cams + chronoboost is very useful for training probes. But with dark grid 1.3 this becomes very difficult. You would press B then the Chronohotkey - that's not intuitiv and especially very slow.
Will study this more... and am looking forward to visit this thread soon again when I find some time. And then probably test this.
Can't you do it just like with injections? Press nexus group, hold shift, press and release chrono, cycle while clicking?
good idea. didn't look into zerg too much. I just used F1-F4 for base cams (checknig saturation and being fast with defending drops) and Protoss does not have the problem with the queens walking around when there is missing one - so just using one key to quickly cycle thrrough all bases and chrono everything is the most effective one and the Bases F1-F5 dont follow up with additional hotkeys just mouse movement commands - so atm this is optimum for me. Will consider / study your idea though. Maybe i just change some hotkeys. Like "center" to another position - I use centering for microing mostly (when there is a unit in the corner and you have to move it more to the corner for example) unlike zerg that uses it for transfusing. So not that important maybe that could go to "b" (darkgrid protoss position for cycling)
Sry I am just arguing with myself a bit too I put alot of training into my grid and I have to think about it if adapting or implementing DarkGrid 1.3 is realy worth it. I realy like the multiple unit control of Dargrid 1.3 for protoss and it seems to be realy fast. On the Other hand 1a2a3a is part of my blood -.-
Regarding the cams in general having to press alt+ANYKEY also seems quite slow to me when it comes to base defense. As you don't reach alt +KEY in a few miliseconds (because its a keycombo), but you do with f1 to F4 (they're also feeling different on my keyboard).
ps: I will try it out the next days asap (just try first) . Someone here from BW whos is / was realy into 1a2a3a and has hints for me how I can learn DarkGrid in this matter? I do play a dargelein's micro map from time to time which has a 1a2a3a4a training but I don't know atm if it's effective for this. Realy hoping you can give me a good arm there.
I want to share a hint too. Here is how I trained my own grid. Do games vs AIs that you can beat easy with your current training (increase difficulty later). Have a checklist (like day9s), make notes about the hotkeys at each check point. Now go through the checklist (pylons ressources build-worker check army build army and so on) (btw this way you can enhance your mental checklist in addition) and use every hotkey you wrote down (important not to watch your bo and stuff just concentrate on the checkpoint and hotkey). At first you have to look on your paper, then you have to realy think what to do next, then it gets easier, you can start to make it automatically but not too fast, then faster. The easy AI helps getting into all the stuff while cheering you up knochking on your front door. Later on you can use military drill (starts with fast reading and ends with self-pressure), a friend via teamspeak would be optimal giving very fast commands... No matter how fast you want to play don't forget your checklist and hotkeys although it is slower at first. You can do this in smaller steps to be perfect. First only train the macro checklist and hotkeys. Next train the military and hotkeys... You can do single macro things first (but in a single match.. else it wold be too easy) You can add looking at your minimap between every checkpoint (foxymayhem gave a good advanced excersise for that with your friend..) - This way you train your musical instruments too what would be impossible otherwise (yes im playing guitar), mentioning the guitar I want to add that large distances between keys are not always slower but they're harder to train for and less flexible. (like foxymayhem emphasized)
pps: Ok tried it out a little. Actually you can't use shift-micro very well. Like 3 (colossi) back, shift, attack, and other groups, because ur hand is angled towards the inner of your keyboard (like advised and because of they hotkeys of course). My pinky is very agile already, never the less its quite difficult... Or am I doing something wrong?
Thanks very much for all the work you've put into this.
I've got a question though (keep in mind that I am a total newbie, I played briefly over a year ago and am just getting back into SC2):
First off, what's the actual difference between the T&P vs Z hotkey files? I plan to not only adapt to your new hotkeys but also learn Zerg and Protoss (which I've never played before) so I can play as random. Looking through I haven't been able to figure out what the difference between the two setups actually is. I mean mechanically as in which keys do what: I can see that you have different recommendations for how to make use of the control groups. Is there any reason I shouldn't just use the T&P hotkey file with Zerg as well?
Also, is there any good reason why Q is attack? I've switched it to W as suggested in your Terran interview. I had to switch SCVs to Q though, because otherwise it overloads the keys for the Planetary Fortress.
One last thing: any progress on those tutorial videos "That's so raven" is going to make? I don't have his youtube channel or anything.
Edit: ok, real last thing: Do you know how "final" this setup is? I mean, is there stuff you're already thinking about changing, like making more use of mouse buttons? I made one modification: I bound my mousewheel click (I've got another button if that's inconvenient) to alt, because I find holding alt+ctrl kind of awkward sometimes.
I hope these aren't stupid questions; it's just that you've obviously put a lot of thought into this and I don't want to screw up some subtlety that I didn't even notice.
On February 07 2012 01:02 Borskey wrote: First off, what's the actual difference between the T&P vs Z hotkey files? I plan to not only adapt to your new hotkeys but also learn Zerg and Protoss (which I've never played before) so I can play as random. Looking through I haven't been able to figure out what the difference between the two setups actually is. I mean mechanically as in which keys do what: I can see that you have different recommendations for how to make use of the control groups. Is there any reason I shouldn't just use the T&P hotkey file with Zerg as well?
Get the Terran/Toss file and you're good, I haven't noticed any differences and if you do, you can change those things manually. Doesn't seem to be anything mutually exclusive in the setups.
I'm a terran player and I've just started using darkgrid today, my first time using a new layout. So far I'm very impressed with the macro efficiency and accessibility of the control groups. I have 2 questions.
In the newest video you mentioned changing the attack command to W. When attempting to do this I've found that build SCV cannot be bound properly because of the attack command on the Planetary Fortress. I like having build SCV on W and the only solution I can come up with is to leave attack on A. Is there a reason that attack is moved to Q or W rather than A?
Also, I've noticed I am having trouble keeping track of what each control group is for, is there an easier way to remember these?
Hi, I play random and have been using grid hotkeys in every RTS that allows you to edit hotkey configurations (inc. WC3). It appears as though there is one hotkey setup for Z and a different one for T and P. Assuming I have Mouse 4 and 5 available to be mapped:
Which should I download if I play R and why?
What sorts of modifications would I have to make to make it play well for all three races?
Like 3 (colossi) back, shift, attack, and other groups, because ur hand is angled towards the inner of your keyboard (like advised and because of they hotkeys of course). My pinky is very agile already, never the less its quite difficult... Or am I doing something wrong?
You should only tip your hand inward 3-8 degrees, ie, not very much. Find what lets you reach shift comfortably and use that.
It is strongly recommended that you use your layered cameras any time you're moving between bases. Faster, and better map awareness.
On February 07 2012 01:02 Borskey wrote: First off, what's the actual difference between the T&P vs Z hotkey files?
Extractor is placed on W, instead of F, in the zerg layout. ...Aaand that's it. F (build) W is much easier to strike than FF, so gateways and Rax (the most frequent P and T structures) are assigned there, with gasses on FF. But since the zerg don't make that many roach warrens, it's better to have gas on F W for them.
So yes, the T and P layout is for random players.
Jengo, this one is for your question, too:
Also, is there any good reason why Q is attack? I've switched it to W as suggested in your Terran interview. I had to switch SCVs to Q though, because otherwise it overloads the keys for the Planetary Fortress.
Your fingers rest on Q and W (as well as E and F). Since abilities are on E and F, and attack is the most frequently used unit command, so it should be on Q and W to reduce movement necessary, increasing speed and lowering strain. I personally find attack on Q very comfortable, but I use hold position stutter step for marine micro (which, not that I think about it, I could use stop to and it might be a bit better). In any case, stop or hold, using those so stutter step is about twice as efficient.
In a normal attack move stutter step you: 1)Click a move location 2)Select attack 3)Click an attack location
And then repeat. With stop micro you: 1)Click a move location. 2)Stop.
And then repeat. But that's only a third less steps! you say. Yes, but since you have to execute less steps in than short amount of time, it makes it much easier, and much less straining, especailly if, when using the attack move stutter step, you're clicking the attack location toward the enemy and the move loocation away from the enemy. With stop, this happens automatically: nearby enemies aggro (make themselves a target to be attacked) by the marines out of firing range. So now all you do is keep your mouse on the retreating side of the marines and alternate clicking your mouse and stop.
It will take a about 20 minutes of practice to get used to, since it's so much easier you'll start and stop faster than your marines can fire.
One last thing: any progress on those tutorial videos "That's so raven" is going to make? I don't have his youtube channel or anything.
He hasn't updated me on any progress. When they are done there will be an announcement post and red text in the OP saying so.
Edit: ok, real last thing: Do you know how "final" this setup is? I mean, is there stuff you're already thinking about changing, like making more use of mouse buttons?
Most people don't have more than five mouse buttons, and I don't like using the mouse wheel click for anything. It seriously reduces accuracy. Though I think everyone who can should place ctrl and alt on their mouse for this layout.
As for how final thing are, the following changes are in review: 1) Swiching Hold Possition and Stop commands. Stop on S is a hangover from when I was trying to make Darkgrid easier to switch to. Since I've abandoned that in favor of maximum efficiency, swappins it's possition to W may be optimal. Likely.
2) Moving command structures (CC, Nexus, Hatchery) construction to FF, and putting all gas construction on F Q. This removes the need for seperate zerg hotkeys, and since command structures are produced less frequetly than gas structures, is more efficent. However, misclicking FF is much easier than FQ, and an accidently produced command structure has a very high cost, (75-100 minerals), where gas structures cannot be misplaced -- unless you're incredibly dense. Likely.
3) Swiching attack from Q to W. Unlikely, instead avocating the use of stop stutter step micro.
4) Reaserching a) whether or not it is possible, and b) whether or not it is benificial to battle micro to layer the arrow keys into the layout. When microing lategame armies that span more than the screen, one has to move their mouse all the way to the edge of the screen to adjust their view, and then move the mouse back to center to resume micro. Placing the burden of viewport adjustmenton the left hand, as we do now with camera commands for base management, may allow for improved performance in occasional lategame scenarios. Unlikely (due to the limits of the keyboard, but if I find a way to overcome it...).
5) Trying to find a better place for the warpgate key. Kind of ticks me off that protoss gets an extra hotkey . I mean, before it didn't matter since practically no protoss used all of their control groups, but man oh man what I could do with an extra control group for terran (zergs don't really need it, what with only one production facility. It's exactly like having one more. Wow, I guess it's pretty much terran with the short stick here.) But, the best place to put warpgates is on the mouse, and that means creating a protoss specific layout, or all protoss having an extra mouse key. Were trying to go for unification, here...
I will continue to make improvements as I find them, but most will probably be small optimizations, and not worth the effort to relearn. The only thing right now keeping 1.3 from being "official" is those likely changes and getting good training vids up.
I made one modification: I bound my mousewheel click (I've got another button if that's inconvenient) to alt, because I find holding alt+ctrl kind of awkward sometimes.
I fing using the mousewheel click sugnificantly reduces accuracy. Have you overcome this somehow? If so, this will be a great addition.
I hope these aren't stupid questions; it's just that you've obviously put a lot of thought into this and I don't want to screw up some subtlety that I didn't even notice.
No, they aren't, and I'm glad you asked! I'm also very glad you're wary of screwing up unseen subtleties, that really makes me smile.
4) Reaserching a) whether or not it is possible, and b) whether or not it is benificial to battle micro to layer the arrow keys into the layout. When microing lategame armies that span more than the screen, one has to move their mouse all the way to the edge of the screen to adjust their view, and then move the mouse back to center to resume micro. Placing the burden of viewport adjustmenton the left hand, as we do now with camera commands for base management, may allow for improved performance in occasional lategame scenarios. Unlikely (due to the limits of the keyboard, but if I find a way to overcome it...).
Mm, the original use of the mousewheel click makes it so that you don't have to move your mouse to the edge of the screen. Simply hold it down, and then moving your mouse instantly moves your screen around. Since you hate that button though, you could try binding that function to, say, ctrl+z? I never got used to using that function, but I always figured that it would be marginally faster.
Edit: Or just B? with the layered cameras, is there any need for "Cycle Base Cam"?
I fing using the mousewheel click sugnificantly reduces accuracy. Have you overcome this somehow? If so, this will be a great addition.
I've used mouse buttons for a long time in games, so I'm probably more used to it than others. I've never played a game that required super accuracy with the mouse though, and since I haven't really played much with this setup (I have a splinter under my left index fingernail right now) I can't say whether it's a huge pain or not. It is a little bit awkward to hold it down and left-click since I'm used to pressing it with my index finger, but I can click it with my middle finger just as quickly. It just feels a little awkward doing it. I might switch alt to be my mouse4 though, and the put cc/tech on mousewheel click. The only thing is, my right thumb is a little fucked up and holding it down feels uncomfortable for me. Pressing with it is just fine though.
Like 3 (colossi) back, shift, attack, and other groups, because ur hand is angled towards the inner of your keyboard (like advised and because of they hotkeys of course). My pinky is very agile already, never the less its quite difficult... Or am I doing something wrong?
You should only tip your hand inward 3-8 degrees, ie, not very much. Find what lets you reach shift comfortably and use that.
It is strongly recommended that you use your layered cameras any time you're moving between bases. Faster, and better map awareness.
Thanks for the tip.
I have another idea looking at players who use Snipiing via mouse-scroll-leftclick: Why not use mousewheel-up and -down for more hotkeys? Every mouse has this function, and you realy don't need to zoom in or out in starcraft 2 unless you are playing the campaign and want to enjoy the grafics, hmm and sometimes you zoom in to detect observers but I personally don't use that I just look on the screen). So for example put Robo on Mouse-up and Stargate on Mouse-down. ?
And if you are one of the guys who like to use scroll-leftclick-sniping then just use mousewheel-up for the sniping and -down for production facilities, that's a whole new key freed up. The advantage here is. You don't need accuracy for production facilities so pressing this doesn't disable you at all.
I tried using B and I really liked it. Really good idea.
But with testing, it took the mouse out of operation, even hiding it, which is less than ideal in a battle micro situation. And, since the cursor doesn't move while you're manipulating the view port location, afterward, moving my hand to what used to bring me to the minimap no longer did. Use this method enough times and you have to pick up the mouse from the pad and recenter it. My mouse handles this exceptionally well, but not all mice will. The accuracy loss, the dislocation of the cursor relative to the mouse, the time where the cursor cannot be aimed, and the strain of lifting and recentering the mouse for CT suffers forces me to rule this option out.
However, I found that increasing my edge-of-screen scroll speed to 100 (from 75) works quite well, and avoids all the issues that the other method presents. It also works well in tandem with the base cams.
I find alt very difficult to bind on my mouse... testing is delayed. I worry for whether others will have the same problem. I can't provide support for every mouse.
Feedback Regarding your discussion about the middle-mousebutton: I don't use it for camera moving neither (as foxymayhem) I find moving my cam to the edge of the screen faster. .. ok I should do my real life work now.. this hotkey layout is too interesting :S
However, I found that increasing my edge-of-screen scroll speed to 100 (from 75) works quite well, and avoids all the issues that the other method presents. It also works well in tandem with the base cams.
Yes I am watching streams regularly. And one big advantage I see was in destinies playstyle - he has a very high edge-of-screen scroll speed. He was soo fast. Then I watched a terran playing and he was soo slow - I think it was Jinro - I tried to contact him to increase the play... I realy think people should try to find their max speed here. I have 82 atm. 88 is a little bit too much.
On February 07 2012 14:24 FoxyMayhem wrote: The accuracy loss, the dislocation of the cursor relative to the mouse, the time where the cursor cannot be aimed, and the strain of lifting and recentering the mouse for CT suffers forces me to rule this option out.
I always figured it would be the sort of thing that would feel really clumsy at first, but eventually would feel even more natural than "scooting" the screen around.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't scrolling to the edge of the screen prevent you from using your mouse in any way other than navigating the screen? Does it not also affect your accuracy? Does it not also decenter your mouse slightly? (you hit the edge, and then keep moving your mouse to scoot the screen over but the cursor doesn't move with it)
There is an option to turn up the sensitivity for the "drag-scrolling" as well.
Like I said, it's not something I've used at all, but I think I'm going to switch to it while I am learning the hotkeys, just to try it out. I suspect it's something you might have to spend a long time getting used to.
If you have your queens all in the same controlgroup and injects all hatcherys and one queen is dead, you can forget that the queen in your main goes to your natural or something like that? I dislike this.
Extractor is placed on W, instead of F, in the zerg layout. ...Aaand that's it. F (build) W is much easier to strike than FF, so gateways and Rax (the most frequent P and T structures) are assigned there, with gasses on FF. But since the zerg don't make that many roach warrens, it's better to have gas on F W for them.
When I try the T&P layout it seem like zerg still builds their extractor with W, so wouldn't the two layout files be exactly the same? Or am I missing something?
@dabosaur Of course you can forget your queen not being there. I don't know the exact method, thou have to wait for foxymayhem to be sure. But from my experience you will still see wether you have a queen there, if not, just don't click on the hatch (seems to be your habit to fast click on it). When you don't have the good memory or are under pressure just slow down a bit in your "gameplay". Thinking > fast clicking But I can't evaluate your situation fully. maybe using the idra-method is better for you..
Hey FoxyMayhem I wanted to ask you one thing. ... I'm astonished about the optimization and well thought out habits you would train wiht your DarkGrid 1.3. But I also notced that the anatomie of my hand And/Or my keyboard are not well suit for this layout... So I am going to do my own layout but using your ideas (). Could you give me some starter tipps how you developed your grid and how you explored all the priorities? There is alot of obvious stuff but it's not that easy to find the best combination.. Actually I read you were talking about the difficulties quite a bit. For example you could enlarge how you found F as optimal center ability-key and created all the groups around it.. I'm expecting alot of tying and changing after developing such stuff as you did here with player feedback.
I also read that you realy recommend using ctrl and alt on the mouse (if it would be "allowed") could you explain the advantages of using strg / alt on the mouse over using it for nexus and production, which seems to be pretty good too?
On February 07 2012 14:24 FoxyMayhem wrote: The accuracy loss, the dislocation of the cursor relative to the mouse, the time where the cursor cannot be aimed, and the strain of lifting and recentering the mouse for CT suffers forces me to rule this option out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't scrolling to the edge of the screen prevent you from using your mouse in any way other than navigating the screen? Does it not also affect your accuracy? Does it not also decenter your mouse slightly? (you hit the edge, and then keep moving your mouse to scoot the screen over but the cursor doesn't move with it) ...
If you are used to it it doesn't limit you at all. the only thing that limits you is the scroll speed on-edge-of-the screen in the matter you can't be scrolling fast enough (using 82% though). It is just like 50ms that you are using edge-scrolling after that your mouse is ready. I feel like using the mouse-wheel takes more time. But missing scientific evidence I'd say it's personal feeling and mainly a mouse thingy (!! I think there are quite good middle-key mouses, and alot are not) although there may be more reasons .. You would need a few players who tried out both equally for an extended time, setup statistics for certain macroing and microing situations and evaulate the results.
Realy nice offer... I'd prefer maybe some hints here in the forum. Need to think about it a bit (which needs some time)! "I'd prefer to figure out.." Looks like you want DarkGrid to be perfect.. OR want to know why s.o.'s not pleased and of course you want to help.
I'm also just interested about the design process just not for myself but about you. Because I like optimzing and people who do that and not go with the default all day. But some Hints here for a start are enough. I'm still trying to figure out my issue by myself.
Ps: Feedback about the #1 Post. I'd like to see an introduction what DarkGrid is generally. I was kind of confused when first visiting this thread
Ps: I want to recommend "Uncel Micro test" as best micro training map that I know (setup any army in seconds vs ai or player). Realy good for those many group hotkeys recommended.
Uh, you want me to give you "hints" about design, but not actually explain it, and you want to know about me personally?
I take it English is your second language, so perhaps you're against a skype call because your verbal comprehension is a little low? I can understand that, but with my wrist problems, I don't want to type it all out.
Here's the main goals when I designed: 1) Minimize hand movement, 2) alteration, or, when doing several common actions, design the layout so you use the same fingers or hands one after the other (I don't but barracks on F F because that's slower than F W). The actions that need to be done faster, even if they're not common, are made easy. That has to be balanced with the most common actions, which also have to be easy.
Are there any pro's who have given feedback on this? As an aspiring pro-gamer myself i don't want to be learning a whole new hotkey layout only to find that it is in-adequate for professional play.
No pros have tried it, but I have clear data that this is better (injection speeds, drop response, two-pronged attack execution, all easily measurable and show clear improvement). You'll be giving yourself an edge if you learn it. And beside, just think it through: all the controls are on the left size of the keyboard, which means you don't have to reach for them. That alone means it's better than standard, and it's only of a dozen major design improvements.
Most of the controls rest directly under the fingers, which reduces click time from 320-600 miliseconds down to 20-80.
The layout uses alliteration, which reduces spell execution time (selecting a ghost, selecting EMP, aiming, firing) from approximately 800 miliseconds down to approximately 340 miliseconds (assuming your very fast at aiming, making the major execution bottleneck is finger travel time). How many camera keys do you regularly use? Amaterasu used to use none, but since switching, he now averages 5-8 in a macro game. These keys can literally cut off 1300 miliseconds of response time, assuming you were fast to begin with. If you are slow, then it shaves off even more.
And control groups, terran and protoss benefit amazingly from full use of their control groups. Micro, according to masters players, is soooo much easier.
It's up to you to decide if you want to play it, but if you practice well and push the layout to its full potential, you bet your ballsack (assuming you have one) this will make you a better player.
Day9 absolutely recommends that you use the middle-mouse button scrolling instead of edge scrolling. Not that his word is the absolute truth, but he does have some merit because of his experience. Also, I really dislike using the screen edge for scrolling around, it takes away my cursor from the center of action to the edge and I keep having to move it all over just to look at things instead of having it more or less constantly centered and ready for action.
Speed is not really a problem as it is affected by the speed of your mouse, which is my case is pretty high. It really is personal preference though, but I use it and for me it is by far superior to screen edge scrolling because of the accuracy. I always know where my cursor is relative to the position on the screen.
For Protoss layout 1.3 mouseless separate production there is no hotkey for Colossus anymore, while the other layouts do? How would you handle Colossus movement using this method?
Also, for the same layout, why is R = Stalker, T = Templar, Y = zealot? I would have thought T = zealot, Y = Templar instead since you use zealots more often? Many games you don't even get to use Templar since its late game? What is your reasoning behind that setup?
I try to hotkey my nexus all under my Mouse 4 button, which works fine, even though my Logitech M950 feels a little shit and unresponsive on the mouse button side.
Anyway, I can hotkey all my Nexus under Mouse 4.
However I cannot recall the selection with mouse 4...what am I doing wrong?
Same goes for mouse 5, I can make a control group but cannot recall it.
Well I don't have this issue, and I don't really know why it is. But here is what I did when I was binding went on my Razor Imperator Config, created a profile called "Starcraft 2". On this profile there is a macro(Don't worry not one in which it does multi-actions so it does not break Blizzard t&c) in which when i press mouse 4 it presses P and then lets go of P, the same way in which you'd just press the button normally. Same again with O and mouse 5. It all worked fine with me after i bound my mouse 4 and mouse 5 to these macro's.
I Know you have a different mouse but perhaps if you follow the same sort of guidelines, perhaps that can be fixed :D.
Sorry if I was no help at all.
Also: Finally just getting used to this layout, my apm has probably increased by 10 -15 on average. Also, despite me being a complete scrub at the game I've gotten much better with my macro and being able to recover quite easily when my money goes too high. Thanks alot. I'd reconmend this if you are fairly new to the game especially, don't hestitate and think you'll wait till you understand the game more as you'll just spend longer forcing the new hotkeys in, whether bronze or masters, I'd say just get it, get in good habibts, and become much better with much less finger and wrist pains.
im getting more and more used to this. still not good enough for laddering but getting better everyday =)
I find that practicing towards a specific goal each days helps alot - e.g. build ONLY barracks units + upgrades
if you try do ur normal build orders straight away, ull prolly get frustrated and switch bak to ur old keys (i've done so many times... =.=")
as terran im finding the layered camera more and more useful. but i have a keyboard with a very small ALT key so i place Set Camera to Ctrl Alt + letter and retrieve to Ctrl + letter. Works well so far =)
Here's the main goals when I designed: 1) Minimize hand movement, 2) alteration, or, when doing several common actions, design the layout so you use the same fingers or hands one after the other (I don't but barracks on F F because that's slower than F W). The actions that need to be done faster, even if they're not common, are made easy. That has to be balanced with the most common actions, which also have to be easy.
thank you.
And I think I solved my problem with very minor fixes now............ my thumb... and my spacebar is rattling.
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On February 09 2012 21:00 WinningGuy wrote: Hey people, does anyone else have this issue.
I just started using this.
I try to hotkey my nexus all under my Mouse 4 button, which works fine, even though my Logitech M950 feels a little shit and unresponsive on the mouse button side.
Anyway, I can hotkey all my Nexus under Mouse 4.
However I cannot recall the selection with mouse 4...what am I doing wrong?
Same goes for mouse 5, I can make a control group but cannot recall it.
Hi there, I don't know a solution either but maybe I can help you to find the problem. Here is smth you can try. Be sure you used just O and P for mouse 4 and mouse 5. If yes, check in a text editor using your mouse buttons with O and P typing o and p then use a modifier to type Capital letters: moues button 4 + shift should equal "O". If that works there should be no problem ingame because the mouse buttons just simulate the letters (o,p) pressed.
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On February 09 2012 16:31 bankai wrote: Hi, this is an interesting read.
For Protoss layout 1.3 mouseless separate production there is no hotkey for Colossus anymore, while the other layouts do? How would you handle Colossus movement using this method?
Also, for the same layout, why is R = Stalker, T = Templar, Y = zealot? I would have thought T = zealot, Y = Templar instead since you use zealots more often? Many games you don't even get to use Templar since its late game? What is your reasoning behind that setup? Thanks!!
Hi, yes interesting read of course!
Regarding colossus handling. You can simply ctrl+click the colossi then move them back. If you feel that's too slow you must exchange it with another key - and make a note for yourself what u changed (for later updates from foxymayhem looking at HoS). If you realy want that good micro (like colosi on 3) you could try using numbers 6 and 7 for seperate production.. Yes it's not belonging to the left of your keyboard, but you ahve to choose, heh? Or try F1 and F2 for those 2 extra seperate Production - try what suits you better 6,7 or F1 F2.. sacrifice some speed for more control.
Your second issue is about production right? Default should be Zealot Q, Templar W, Sentry E, Stalker F.. No reasoning comes to my mind. Maybe you should fix that according to the default I listed you. Because if there is no reason.. - when you havewarpgates on 3 (seperate mouseless production) Q W E F are still better thatn T Y I think. Can't tell you this for sure though - To be honest I didn't try your layout
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On February 09 2012 22:29 Raymano wrote: im getting more and more used to this. still not good enough for laddering but getting better everyday =)
I find that practicing towards a specific goal each days helps alot - e.g. build ONLY barracks units + upgrades
if you try do ur normal build orders straight away, ull prolly get frustrated and switch bak to ur old keys (i've done so many times... =.=")
as terran im finding the layered camera more and more useful. but i have a keyboard with a very small ALT key so i place Set Camera to Ctrl Alt + letter and retrieve to Ctrl + letter. Works well so far =)
Still eagerly awaiting the tutorial videos! =D
Hi maybe military drill helps you.. learn faster or execute faster. - try for yourself at what learning-stage you want to use it - Start with writing down your innner checklist and hotkeys. Ingame work through this list and use all hotkeys. Read the first step execute it, read the next point execute it and so on ... then repeat the loop. Also possible with recorded voice - read the list yourself with hotkeys and just do what you hear. You can speed that up. Also possible with a partner.. You don't have to use the whole game checklist, you can just do a macro loop or just do a micro loop - I don't know what's the best way either But I was at the miliatry and learned some things by this way pretty fast and of course i used this to train my old grid... - I haven't used recorded voice or a partner yet.. just my ideas what you could do if you wanted. If you don't want to use recorded voice or a partner you can do like me: urging yourself to remember the checkpoints and execute them fastly. The point is after a short time of training this way. you do it automatically.. it's not you doing it it's your hands! -so begin with writing down your steps - very easy. Sry when I tell you obvious stuff, but I can't know detailed what you want to know and if you want to know ^.^
- - - ps: Hey guys I want to point out - while studying DarkGrid layout 1.3 I noticed that it includes camera rolling (because dark grid has the bonus of mouse-using..) for fast check (mutas) or fast reinforcements (warp in) edit: a link is below. Check this out: Spot where u want reinforcements (defending point or your attack): press ctrl+1, press 2 (spot where u can warp in), press mouse for warpgates (darkgrid 1.3 is button "6" for warpgates), press Q for zealots, select, press 1, rightlick mouse (for move) - takes like 1s or more - depending on the number of zealots you warp in. This is like "rolling" because alternating keys (1,2,q/f,1) are not as fast but also quite good.
Sry I did only check my race in combination with darkgrid, but my setup for zerg would be this: When I play zerg I'd use this (ctrl +1, backspace backspace backspace to check bases, press 1) and u are back and you know the status of all your hatcheries. it's a checking step of a few progamers wether they have injected, because injecting takes more time than checking... especially when you ARE microing. Sry i use backspace for the base-cycling on my mouse (wheel up..) So it is not realy a dark-grid method for zerg.. I think you can consider doing that if you want to use this 99% muta micro concept in your gameplay. - Coz ctrl +1 then alt + q,w etc is slow and 1 again. With Mutas microing and checking you don't want to deselect your mutas btw. - Not to misunderstand: for injecting you use the darkgrid method of course EDIT: I don't want to confuse you more, but I here found a thread about camera rolling while microing on teamliquid: Interesting read: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269126 Try it out - works and needs very little modification on dark grid. I think!!!
How do you inject macro hatcheries? If I try to inject a macro hatchery in my main, the queen from my expo walks over to inject. The queen in my main only injects the first hatchery.
You can put macro hatches on seperate camera hotkeys. If you have all 6 occupied and you're injecting 6 hatches you'll have more larvae then you could hope to spend.
Suggestion: Alternating hotkeys for workers: current: w add: q
result: let's you add workers to queue faster. reason: pressing double requires more muscle-tension than just using 2 fingers after another. Try it out. I am just using Foxymayhems reasoning that he found out. Alternate suggestion: w,e (protoss change mother ship from e -> q) T/P good for: midgame where u need to produce 4 to 8 worker (2 at once for 2 to 4 bases) Z good for: "Also good for not accidentally making workers when spamming for larvae."
Aside from roaches, you can spam for larva (such as building an overlord) by pressing F E repeatedly -- or whatever the other production is.
Hey guys, been busy preparing for a horse show the Family ranch is showing at. I'll not be updating for d while, but hopefully when I'm back I can do a starter tutorial.
Switched to this, played around against GTAI for a while (been travelling so no ladder) and recently bought an EU account. Decided I'd just jump into it and I'm getting better much quicker than when I was playing GT AI.
Play with it a few days, then just jump into the ladder :D
Also, My tip is to switch 'q' for attack to 'a' for attack, just because its natural to hit a from playing standard and that is quicker and easier for me
This python script lets you practice the Darkgrid layout without having to open SC2, useful if you are at work and want to practice, waiting for a queue in Dota2, or just want to focus on hotkeys and nothing else.
NOTE: This is a preview version, which is only Zerg and only some of the commands, if there is demand I can make it much more extensive
COPY your Darkgrid .SC2Hotkeys file to the folder, this script reads the hotkeys file, so any modifications you have done to it will work fine
Open the config.ini if you wish to change options, such as time per command and if you want to always show the key combinations (recommended for people going cold turkey for the first time)
Make sure the SC2Hotkeys file name in config.ini is the same as yours
Double click the dgtrainerV1.py file and get to practicing!
That looks awesome, SirPsycho! Very nice! Nice way to keep it auto up-to-date.
You might also consider giving a measure of milliseconds how long it takes them to execute an action, perhaps with a short 3-2-1 countdown before beginning after displaying the desired action. If you combine this with a "best time" save, so people can measure their progress, BAM, you've got a game to train you. Of course, maybe I'm just dreaming a bit ^_^.
On February 12 2012 13:27 FoxyMayhem wrote: That looks awesome, SirPsycho! Very nice! Nice way to keep it auto up-to-date.
You might also consider giving a measure of milliseconds how long it takes them to execute an action, perhaps with a short 3-2-1 countdown before beginning after displaying the desired action. If you combine this with a "best time" save, so people can measure their progress, BAM, you've got a game to train you. Of course, maybe I'm just dreaming a bit ^_^.
I'll add you to the OP when you release.
I've added basics for each race, time between successes, and toggle options for different types of commands. Feel free to link the download page in the OP
rofl omg how does anyone ever learn to use this? I feel like I'm playing in Korean.
I'm a Terran, my only thought so far is using mouse 4 and 5 for cc/tech and barracks. For my mouse, Logitech MX 518, both the two buttons are on the side of the mouse and only usable with the thumb. I usually cycle these functions a lot during play, but to have them all on two thumb buttons feels very slow and awkward. Any suggestions? The hotkey setup I've used for production since beta has been: 4 CC, 5 Barracks, 6 Factory, 7Starport, 1-3 army groups, ~ armory/engineering bay, 8-0 are too much of a reach, even though I have larger than average hands.
I've also never really tried to incorporate the layered cameras into my play, definitely feels awkward so far, more so for the layout order feeling awkward (q,w,d,a,s,f in that order? just feels unintuitive at first, though maybe that's my muscle memory talking) Will it effect anything if I use something like w,e,r,s,d,f?
I got some personal improvements I'd like to mention for you to consider regarding the 1.3 zerg mouseless. This is just how I customized the darkgrid to better suit me, but maybe some of the changes are worth considering.
Rotated 5, 4 and spacebar to be: Spacebar = infestors | 5 = hatcheries | 4 = Broodlord Corruptor Reasoning: I find spacebar to be less pleasant to use for hatcheries due to size, also I feel it is more important for infestors to have that hotkey, in addition 4-f is not nearly as natural as spacebar-f for me.
5-w feels more natural (as 4/5 are the standard control groups for hatcheries for the majorities of zergs) and 4-f for corruptors corruption is much better than 5-f for me.
Switched the hotkey for making corruptor (C) with muta (S) Reasoning: I feel W-C is easier than W-S and muta is far more used than Corruptor, also muta is often accompanied by making lings and W-F and W-C is much smoother for me than W-F and W-S.
Switched Patrol (A) and Attack (Q) Reasoning: Well what I am used with mostly, but despite that I believe V-A to be far better than V-Q, and the others seem indifferent to whetever they are on A or Q.
Patrol not being as crucial as attack move I believe it is better to have them switched. Will also be more natural for people wanting to change to darkgrid from standard.
Switched a few of the build building to better corresponding with build unit, like hydra den from D-W to D-A so the building is built with same hotkey as the unit (W-A). Also I got a bit uncertain when I was typing this, but I believe I changed infestor pit from D to F, but it might have been on F all along, if it was on D the reasoning at least is to avoid double tapping to build it. BNET down so no checking that atm.
Switched the melee, range and armor upgrades for ground to F-E-W instead of E-F-W, and spire upgrades to F-E and upgrade to greater spire W as to better with the upgrades from left to right go F-E-W no matter.
I am rather confused as to the choice of E-F-W on evo and F-W-E on spire, along with E-D for ovie speed and drop.
To me the consistency of F-E-W makes more sense as it makes for easier learning. Also for the ovie speed and drop it is just more smooth to go F-E instead of E-D (actually I got D for drop instead of the E I keep mentioning, this is to reduce the chance of missclicking drop tech when I mean to select larva.) So F-D, still smoother than E-D and less chance of missclicking.
And that is the changes I remember making. (B.NET down as said, so won't be able to check if there were more.)
Now I wonder why the mouse enchanced, and mouseless ones have swapped the rallypoint cam and xnwt cam in the picture?
Also you mentioned wanting to implement the arrowkeys, have you tried using CTRL+e.g. ASDW and if you have, what problems you had with it, unless you are making the change in the near future. Just something I thought about, not sure how it would work.
I have learned the grid and here some suggestions for hotkeys (and training) of darkgrid shortly expressed using your own reasoning. I tested everything. ("x->y" means swap hotkey x with new hotkey y), ( "::" reasoning)
buildings (faster hotkeys, alternation) worker: w,e :: alternating, faster build, also w,e + chrono (F) build stalker: f->e and build sentry: e-> f :: stalker more frequently used, fast chrono with F <-alternating build robo: d-> f :: because you use it often so "dd" is too slow, build fleed: -> d, least build so "dd" is appropriate. btw: build colossi: a,c :: is good, maybe switch to a,s for more natural alternating producing. i.e. you have 2 robo and build 2 colossi at a time.
upgrades (better chrono, alternation), forge, w,e,q :: w most used, fast chrono with F <-alternating, and w,e is natural to use (2 forges) robo bay: q,e,w :: fast chrono with F <-alternating, or "q,w,e" :: because u don't upgrade with "w,e" like in the forge fleed + templarArchives: e :: fast chrono with F <-alternating, circle of twilight: w,e
personal changes: idle workers: ^ :: because protoss need this more than center position. Edit after some more testing: I have put an alternativ key for chrono boost, as you sometimes chrono just 2 or 4 buildings where alternation is faster than clicking F again and again. And shift for jsut 2 or 3 F is also slower in my opinion, for more than 4 holding F down is the way to go I guess. So for DarkGrid it would be E,F and put 'build worker' to Q,W (before suggestion is Q,E)
The maps I used to train the layout very fast: First: custom games vs very easy. The goal is to use every hotkey and get used to it, not to win. Second: "uncEL micro test" to use all army-hotkeys in real scenarios. (also possible with friend) Third to learn it with speed and pressure: "Multitasking trainer 0.95" (inner version 1.35 or so) Edit: Last: Ladder where u will see what hotkeys are not in your blood and learn repeat these after a ladder game. #Hope you can use my suggestions. good luck in the future and have fun.
On February 15 2012 22:41 Doomtrain2 wrote: Hi foxymayhem,
The maps I used to train the layout very fast: First: custom games vs very easy. The goal is to use every hotkey and get used to it, not to win. Second: "uncEL micro test" to use all army-hotkeys in real scenarios. (also possible with friend) Third and last to learn it with speed and pressure: "Multitasking trainer 0.95" (inner version 1.35 or so)
#Hope you can use my suggestions. good luck in the future and have fun.
#Thanks for your inspirational layout.
I also recommend adding that to the OP for ways to learn. Focused learning is way better than just laddering, also way easier to be motivated for since you won't have to go on ladder and lose 50 games.
@Doomtrain2, as a fellow protoss player I really like your suggestions and will definitely implement them. I was wondering which layout you used (mouse/mouseless and with or without separate production facilities). My biggest issue with DarkGrid so far is what Day[9] calls "tapping" and to constantly switch between my production facilities. Any recommendations here?
Trying it out - top masters Protoss. Everything seems pretty straightforward except getting used to select warp gates. Does anyone have a better / more convenient key than 6?
On February 18 2012 09:24 soLremarK wrote: Trying it out - top masters Protoss. Everything seems pretty straightforward except getting used to select warp gates. Does anyone have a better / more convenient key than 6?
On February 18 2012 11:40 soLremarK wrote: hmmm, overall pretty cute idea but I don't think it's worth it, especially for anyone more than a month into the game.
Your average player (Protoss at least) is better off just readjusting standard keys a bit
Did you even put an effort into trying it? It's miles ahead the standard layout, especially the layered base cameras.
My take on the darkgrid hotkey setup is that there are parts of it that are flat out better than other hotkey setups, but it seems to have been designed to be easy/convenient as opposed to fast. For example, It is much faster to press f1 than alt-q, but alt-q requires less hand movement and is more friendly to a newer player. Another example is building gases, It is much faster to press f-x than f-f, but pressing f-f requires less finger movement.
Also, the idea behind shifting all of the building unit production hotkeys to the left side and using r,t,g,v,and space as hotkeys 1,2,6,7,and 8 was a very interesting concept. I personally have a completely personalized hotkey setup, but many of the ideas came from darkgrid.
On February 18 2012 11:40 soLremarK wrote: hmmm, overall pretty cute idea but I don't think it's worth it, especially for anyone more than a month into the game.
Your average player (Protoss at least) is better off just readjusting standard keys a bit
I can only assume the reason you're saying it isn't worth it for anyone more than a month into the game, is because you assume relearning hotkeys is hard. Which 99.99% of players think they could never do.
But it is all just about relearning muscle memory which will take a week with a few hours each day of practice. I just switched to it from a modified standard setup and I have played since start of beta, and I notice it is far better than any modified standard alleready, reason I am never afraid of changing hotkeys is because I am used to many and vastly changed hotkey setups from WoW. Where I bound every bandage, drink, spell, pets abilities and what not, if it in any remote way could be used in PvP it was bound. And many times I completely changed the position of everythiing for various reasons.
Realizing hotkeys can always be relearned in a shorttime is always important for making a switch.
On February 19 2012 13:13 uoeahtns wrote: My take on the darkgrid hotkey setup is that there are parts of it that are flat out better than other hotkey setups, but it seems to have been designed to be easy/convenient as opposed to fast. For example, It is much faster to press f1 than alt-q, but alt-q requires less hand movement and is more friendly to a newer player. Another example is building gases, It is much faster to press f-x than f-f, but pressing f-f requires less finger movement.
Also, the idea behind shifting all of the building unit production hotkeys to the left side and using r,t,g,v,and space as hotkeys 1,2,6,7,and 8 was a very interesting concept. I personally have a completely personalized hotkey setup, but many of the ideas came from darkgrid.
How is f1 faster than alt-q? alt-q is done in one motion, and is a shorter distance than F1. With many modern gaming keyboards the F keys even got a gap between them and rest of the keys like on my steelseries 7g.
NOTE: Despite alt-q being faster it takes a ton of practice to get it down, and I am looking for a way to swap my alt and space keys into different shapes (where the keys are changed to an alt key that takes up the left 1/4 of the space). For gaming in general I want this change though, no need for that small of an alt and that big a space. Many games currently use the alt in some rather significant way.
However f-f I agree is not optimal hence why I customized it for myself to be different, but that is the kind of feedback the creator wants I feel as to make it even better.
All building hotkeys should in my opinion be "building hotkey+a different hotkey" as it is just far faster and less straining on the body to do.
On February 19 2012 13:13 uoeahtns wrote: My take on the darkgrid hotkey setup is that there are parts of it that are flat out better than other hotkey setups, but it seems to have been designed to be easy/convenient as opposed to fast. For example, It is much faster to press f1 than alt-q, but alt-q requires less hand movement and is more friendly to a newer player. Another example is building gases, It is much faster to press f-x than f-f, but pressing f-f requires less finger movement.
Also, the idea behind shifting all of the building unit production hotkeys to the left side and using r,t,g,v,and space as hotkeys 1,2,6,7,and 8 was a very interesting concept. I personally have a completely personalized hotkey setup, but many of the ideas came from darkgrid.
How is f1 faster than alt-q? alt-q is done in one motion, and is a shorter distance than F1. With many modern gaming keyboards the F keys even got a gap between them and rest of the keys like on my steelseries 7g.
I think usage of F1-F8 for location hotkeys will vary between different people. I for one find it much easier to simply extend my middle finger and hit F1 ( People with smaller hands than me will find trouble with this) than it is to bring in my thumb and press two keys instead of one.
On February 19 2012 13:13 uoeahtns wrote: My take on the darkgrid hotkey setup is that there are parts of it that are flat out better than other hotkey setups, but it seems to have been designed to be easy/convenient as opposed to fast. For example, It is much faster to press f1 than alt-q, but alt-q requires less hand movement and is more friendly to a newer player. Another example is building gases, It is much faster to press f-x than f-f, but pressing f-f requires less finger movement.
Also, the idea behind shifting all of the building unit production hotkeys to the left side and using r,t,g,v,and space as hotkeys 1,2,6,7,and 8 was a very interesting concept. I personally have a completely personalized hotkey setup, but many of the ideas came from darkgrid.
How is f1 faster than alt-q? alt-q is done in one motion, and is a shorter distance than F1. With many modern gaming keyboards the F keys even got a gap between them and rest of the keys like on my steelseries 7g.
I think usage of F1-F8 for location hotkeys will vary between different people. I for one find it much easier to simply extend my middle finger and hit F1 ( People with smaller hands than me will find trouble with this) than it is to bring in my thumb and press two keys instead of one.
The motion is simpler, not faster.
It takes a greater amount of practice to be faster with alt+q can F1, true. But after practicing you are doing less motion for the same result, which makes it reverse of what you claimed it to be, making it F1 would be friendly towards newer players, alt+q is less friendly, but with practice faster.
Having long fingers I know pressing Fkeys is easy, but having played piano for many years I know that the less movement, the faster it is, but some less comfortable motions take practice to achieve that benefit from when compared to the easier choices, that at first does better but fails to keep up in the longer run.
I'm a mid zerg player on EU, and I've been using this for a month or so. I really like the inject system, and hotkey setup in general. control+alt+qwdfas is just so fluent, my injects have gotten so much better lategame where before I wouldn't have the time, now it only takes about a second to inject (usually for me) 4 hatches.
The only problem I still have (mainly my fault) is when I'm trying to have multiple control groups of ling/bane to deal with drops or whatever, my brain has trouble not using R for everything. I haven't used the 1 and 2 keys for camera much yet, but that's something that I'll be working on soon.
On February 22 2012 02:21 NTTemplar wrote: The motion is simpler, not faster.
It takes a greater amount of practice to be faster with alt+q can F1, true. But after practicing you are doing less motion for the same result, which makes it reverse of what you claimed it to be, making it F1 would be friendly towards newer players, alt+q is less friendly, but with practice faster.
Having long fingers I know pressing Fkeys is easy, but having played piano for many years I know that the less movement, the faster it is, but some less comfortable motions take practice to achieve that benefit from when compared to the easier choices, that at first does better but fails to keep up in the longer run.
I really disagree with you, and I've played piano for a lot of years.
First off, the biggest issue I have is with the whole speed thing. Mostly because speed isn't everything, sure, it might help, but in this case it really is. Furthermore, the amount of reach you have to do to reach the F-keys is a lot for people who aren't that used to long movements. And I think your claim that F1 is faster than Alt+Q is really far out, I know for sure that I can press Alt+Q faster than F1 simply because I do a lot less movement pressing it compared to F1. You are allowed to use more than one finger at all times you know
And the other thing is that when you reach out to press F1 you are putting your hands of the "command keys", moving your entire hand away from the position were the rest of the keys are. And this just comes back to the fact that the motion for pressing F1 requires more movement than pressing Alt+Q.
I don't know what kind of keyboard you use for typing and piano for playing, because I think you are dead on wrong. The difference in speed is minuscule, and I wager that Alt+Q is faster than F1. Furthermore, speed isn't everything. Alt+Q stays true to the whole everything under one hand design that Darkgrid has. The amount of movement required for F1 is more than Alt+Q. All in all, I think the current solution is a lot, lot better than using F1. Mostly because you cannot do the layered base cams the same way on the F1 keys that you can with Alt+#. Sure, maybe you could move 1 & 2 to F1 and F2, but I don't feel it would even be beneficial.
As a response to the above post, I stand by my statement that different people will be faster with different hotkeys. For me, personally, I credit F1 being faster for me simply due to the way I position my hand on the keyboard. The number hotkeys are at my normal hand position and I reach down to press shortcuts and up to reach the F keys.
I think that you guys are right, less movement is faster, but for me, pressing F1 is less movement that alt-q, although It may not be the case for many others.
However, Pressing something like F6 is much harder than alt-f, and I realize that, but I find F1-F3 more convenient than alt-q-d and I find being able to use the first three base cams more conveniently is more beneficial than the last three.
Just to be sure, I am not saying that alt-q in general is slower than F1, I am just saying that with the way I position my hand on the keyboard F1 is faster than alt-q. I would liken it to the fact that pressing a is faster than pressing p, but not if your hand is on the right side of the keyboard. (Although not as extreme, of course!)
In that case I agree, it really depends upon the person as to what works best. I didn't really consider the way you positioned your hand considering I think most people place their hands directly below the number keys. Anyways, it's a good thing we can modify this to our liking then. Cheers mate!
On February 22 2012 11:44 uoeahtns wrote: As a response to the above post, I stand by my statement that different people will be faster with different hotkeys. For me, personally, I credit F1 being faster for me simply due to the way I position my hand on the keyboard. The number hotkeys are at my normal hand position and I reach down to press shortcuts and up to reach the F keys.
I think that you guys are right, less movement is faster, but for me, pressing F1 is less movement that alt-q, although It may not be the case for many others.
However, Pressing something like F6 is much harder than alt-f, and I realize that, but I find F1-F3 more convenient than alt-q-d and I find being able to use the first three base cams more conveniently is more beneficial than the last three.
Just to be sure, I am not saying that alt-q in general is slower than F1, I am just saying that with the way I position my hand on the keyboard F1 is faster than alt-q. I would liken it to the fact that pressing a is faster than pressing p, but not if your hand is on the right side of the keyboard. (Although not as extreme, of course!)
Just because two fingers move instead of one doesn't mean you should add the movement of both fingers together.
The whole idea is though that your setup in general is much much faster, instead of "action y in this setup is slower than then action y I do." The reason the screen hotkeys work so well, is because its amazing for injects with zerg for example. If you're T or P, it's still less motion, and therefore once you get used to it, faster. alt q-w-d feels better because with this hotkey setup, your hands are already in place to do this, since your thumb is on space all game. Don't cherry pick one idea of the setup and explain why it doesn't work for you.
If his hands are not in the recommended positions, then much of the layout does not work optimally, The layered cameras worst of all. It makes sense that he would single them out.
This thread has made a fun read when I get a chance to check it (travelling at the moment.) Carry on, Gents!
On February 22 2012 02:21 NTTemplar wrote: The motion is simpler, not faster.
It takes a greater amount of practice to be faster with alt+q can F1, true. But after practicing you are doing less motion for the same result, which makes it reverse of what you claimed it to be, making it F1 would be friendly towards newer players, alt+q is less friendly, but with practice faster.
Having long fingers I know pressing Fkeys is easy, but having played piano for many years I know that the less movement, the faster it is, but some less comfortable motions take practice to achieve that benefit from when compared to the easier choices, that at first does better but fails to keep up in the longer run.
I really disagree with you, and I've played piano for a lot of years.
First off, the biggest issue I have is with the whole speed thing. Mostly because speed isn't everything, sure, it might help, but in this case it really is. Furthermore, the amount of reach you have to do to reach the F-keys is a lot for people who aren't that used to long movements. And I think your claim that F1 is faster than Alt+Q is really far out, I know for sure that I can press Alt+Q faster than F1 simply because I do a lot less movement pressing it compared to F1. You are allowed to use more than one finger at all times you know
And the other thing is that when you reach out to press F1 you are putting your hands of the "command keys", moving your entire hand away from the position were the rest of the keys are. And this just comes back to the fact that the motion for pressing F1 requires more movement than pressing Alt+Q.
I don't know what kind of keyboard you use for typing and piano for playing, because I think you are dead on wrong. The difference in speed is minuscule, and I wager that Alt+Q is faster than F1. Furthermore, speed isn't everything. Alt+Q stays true to the whole everything under one hand design that Darkgrid has. The amount of movement required for F1 is more than Alt+Q. All in all, I think the current solution is a lot, lot better than using F1. Mostly because you cannot do the layered base cams the same way on the F1 keys that you can with Alt+#. Sure, maybe you could move 1 & 2 to F1 and F2, but I don't feel it would even be beneficial.
Wait.. what just happened? First I thought you miss quoted me, but then you go on to relate to my piano playing, since the other guy didn't mention piano I can only assume you ment to quote me.. But my entire post means the same as yours, I do not quite understand what you are disagreeing on.
You just said the same as me in only slightly different words.
However I disagree on the difference in speed being minuscule, I believe alt+q got a significant speed advantage over F1, the amount of times the hotkey is used in a normal game easily gains you seconds of time over the other (which is significant, even more so considering how small a thing it is, for such a small thing to gain you seconds in a game is a big deal, hell it is the whole point of an optimized hotkey setup).
On February 22 2012 11:44 uoeahtns wrote: As a response to the above post, I stand by my statement that different people will be faster with different hotkeys. For me, personally, I credit F1 being faster for me simply due to the way I position my hand on the keyboard. The number hotkeys are at my normal hand position and I reach down to press shortcuts and up to reach the F keys.
I think that you guys are right, less movement is faster, but for me, pressing F1 is less movement that alt-q, although It may not be the case for many others.
However, Pressing something like F6 is much harder than alt-f, and I realize that, but I find F1-F3 more convenient than alt-q-d and I find being able to use the first three base cams more conveniently is more beneficial than the last three.
Just to be sure, I am not saying that alt-q in general is slower than F1, I am just saying that with the way I position my hand on the keyboard F1 is faster than alt-q. I would liken it to the fact that pressing a is faster than pressing p, but not if your hand is on the right side of the keyboard. (Although not as extreme, of course!)
It is just not defendable too say Fkeys are faster than alt+q,w,e,a,s,d (or well q,w,d,a,s,f), at least on any keyboard I have seen.
Your hand moves far away from the center of keys, even if you manage to make that single action of F1 equally fast as alt+q you will still be slower when we add in subsequent actions since you are suddenly going up to F1 and then back down again compared to alt+q staying in the center all the time.
As indicated, I have no doubt that you do Fkeys faster than alt+x, but that is due to lack of practice with alt+x not because Fkeys are faster.
A simple and slightly extreme example would be for someone to say one drop is better than two, because when he only drops one place he can micro those units so much better and get a lot more done, but when he drops two places he doesn't manage to properly micro either, hence 1 drop is better. But as is well known, the more places you can drop at once the better, but it takes practice to reach the ability to do so.
On February 23 2012 05:33 NTTemplar wrote: Wait.. what just happened? First I thought you miss quoted me, but then you go on to relate to my piano playing, since the other guy didn't mention piano I can only assume you ment to quote me.. But my entire post means the same as yours, I do not quite understand what you are disagreeing on.
You just said the same as me in only slightly different words.
However I disagree on the difference in speed being minuscule, I believe alt+q got a significant speed advantage over F1, the amount of times the hotkey is used in a normal game easily gains you seconds of time over the other (which is significant, even more so considering how small a thing it is, for such a small thing to gain you seconds in a game is a big deal, hell it is the whole point of an optimized hotkey setup).
Uh. I thought you were the one that answered directly below me. I are confused.
I read your post in a different way than you intended, so well, sorry. I thought you were saying that F1 was faster than Alt+#, not the other way around. I think the difference is small, unless you are doing injects or quickly looking at multiple bases. Selecting just one base, at least for me, has very little difference between F1 and Alt+Q. Anyways, seems we agree either way.
F is the most pressed button in this layout and it is just a matter of time until u stim all your marines by accident. this mistake may very well cost you an entire game.
Or if you select a couple of workers and by accident a lonely marine left behind in the workerline after a muta harrass...your workers will not start building after hitting F but your poor marine will be overdosed with stim.
I think a great layout also has to forgive missclicks!
I've started to use this hotkey layout three weeks ago and i don't play alot (mayb 40games played). Now i'm at the point i can start focusing on the game again instead of thinking what buttons to press.
I must say that i don't feel comfortable yet using the cams, i bluntly forget to use them. I still find it hard to get the control groups properly in my system, especially when things go late game. But even with this handicap I can already see that i control my units better then i used to (only had two control groups for army with non-darkgrid). My Infestors are actually not running to their deaths anymore!
I often accidently add units to my hatcheries, making it very hard to get the macro that i desire because units take precedence over buildings when using them in a control group. This is bothering me most.
During the switching process i really felt that this hotkey would be much better when getting used to. In the first week i wanted to give up and changed back to the default layout. But i immediatly made so many mistakes and kept using darkgrid hotkeys. I already felt it was more intiuative to use. So after a mere 4 games i decided to keep going with darkgrid.
What i want to say is that the learning curve is high and when you begin its quite annoying that you can't perform like you know you could before. But keep in mind that you will come out stronger then ever! I want to tell everyone to stick with it when you change even if things look depressing at the start.
Thanks for this great layout. I think i will start playing league again in 2 or so more weeks.
On February 28 2012 01:41 MalditoKyo wrote: Sorry to bother again, but if anyone have darkgrid or a customized version of it for "azerty" keyboards , it would be great if you can share it!
Thanks in advance!
I don't think it's made yet, if you make one you should totally share it here though! It's just a matter of copying the hotkey setup using key positioning rather than the keys themselves.
On February 27 2012 22:17 Khainer wrote: I've started to use this hotkey layout three weeks ago and i don't play alot (mayb 40games played). Now i'm at the point i can start focusing on the game again instead of thinking what buttons to press.
I must say that i don't feel comfortable yet using the cams, i bluntly forget to use them. I still find it hard to get the control groups properly in my system, especially when things go late game. But even with this handicap I can already see that i control my units better then i used to (only had two control groups for army with non-darkgrid). My Infestors are actually not running to their deaths anymore!
I often accidently add units to my hatcheries, making it very hard to get the macro that i desire because units take precedence over buildings when using them in a control group. This is bothering me most.
During the switching process i really felt that this hotkey would be much better when getting used to. In the first week i wanted to give up and changed back to the default layout. But i immediatly made so many mistakes and kept using darkgrid hotkeys. I already felt it was more intiuative to use. So after a mere 4 games i decided to keep going with darkgrid.
What i want to say is that the learning curve is high and when you begin its quite annoying that you can't perform like you know you could before. But keep in mind that you will come out stronger then ever! I want to tell everyone to stick with it when you change even if things look depressing at the start.
Thanks for this great layout. I think i will start playing league again in 2 or so more weeks.
Wait, you're zerg? Injects are the best thing about this setup man! select queens -> press e -> hold alt+shift and spam qwdfas+clicks! It's so fast =]
hmmm, I didn't say it in my previous post but i do use injects but not like you told it. I use the basecam button ('B'), it does feel a little bit odd though, i will try this method =) I should have watched all the (zerg related) video's :p
On February 28 2012 01:41 MalditoKyo wrote: Sorry to bother again, but if anyone have darkgrid or a customized version of it for "azerty" keyboards , it would be great if you can share it!
Thanks in advance!
Hi, I have an AZERTY keyboard. I've manually redone it by just going in the hotkyes and switch the following things: - Q with A - W with Z - ~ with ²
Due to life getting very busy, I will not be actively supporting this layout at this time. However, if someone wants to do a 1.3.1 update with the best suggestions here, I'll be happy to put it in the OP, just PM me if you do.
Lot's of love guys, thanks for the support. Hopefully I'll be back at it around HOTS time.
On February 28 2012 01:41 MalditoKyo wrote: Sorry to bother again, but if anyone have darkgrid or a customized version of it for "azerty" keyboards , it would be great if you can share it!
Thanks in advance!
Hi, I have an AZERTY keyboard. I've manually redone it by just going in the hotkyes and switch the following things: - Q with A - W with Z - ~ with ²
I used to play Ultima Online, and I came up with what I found to be the most ergonomic and accessible layout.
I would bind most of my keys to the right side of the keyboard, 7890-, UIOP, HJKL;, nm,., and then my thumb could have easy access to ALT, CTRL, SHIFT for modifiers. This method works pretty well because instead of having a wall on the left side of the kryboard, you just have tons of options for your pinky.
Feel free to use it, just credit HunterEX with the idea.
Thanks for making sure we've had that idea, but I've already thought of it and it's been previously recommended by someone else in the thread, so don't be surprise if I don't have an attributions section.
I just wanted to pop in here and say that I really do love this hotkey setup. Been using it for close to a month now and I really like the feel of it.
My first time trying it I was confused, things didn't make sense and I was quick to go back to my normal setup. Thankfully I forced myself to keep trying it little by little, and after a couple hours of messing with it I decided I should just take the plunge and force myself to stick with it and learn the darn'd thing. After a couple of days using it when my muscles were finally starting to learn the new routine a little I was amazed at how fluid and natural it felt building things, my left hand felt a lot more relaxed as it had to move so much less than before. Now as I'm getting more and more used to the setup I can't imagine going back.
There's a few things that still bug me, but they are mostly just my own misclicks (adding a worker to production, or production to unit hotgroups) as well as things that are just so ingrained in me from years of RTS games (hitting A for attack, you have no idea how glad I am that units attack when you issues patrol commands or I'd have lost alot of games to this). The one thing that does bug me a little, though it's fairly minor, is that W is both your worker hotkey and the stop command making it pretty easy to accidentally stop you scout worker or worse stopping all your workers mining (I had to stop my spam boxing of my workers to avoid this tragic misclick). Obviously its something that good motor control will prevent, but I'm wondering why did you choose W other than Q or E (besides the obvious, "W"orker)?
Still, great work on coming up with this system, definitely speeds up your actions and helps promote using all the hotkeys wonderfully. Thanks for the effort.
In your Terran-Master-Interview with SirRaven he mentions that he put attack-move on [W]ar. I think I might have found a reasoning why you may want to change that in the original setup as well.
If you have attack-move on [Q], you are supposed to use the pinky for it. However, if you want to queue an attack-move (after a normal right-click, say), you would have to use the pinky for [Shift] while [Shift]+[Q]-ing, causing disorientation (using ring-finger for [Q] instead of pinky in that particular case, but not usually).
Just my 2-cents though. I hope I am not too much of a nit-picker, but I think this whole idea was born out of nit-picking, right?
Otherwise I think this is a great idea and project! Keep going!
€dit: Plus, putting attack instead of stop on [W] might resolve Tictock's issue.
I am planning to try to learn it, and i have just printed the images (the printer friendly color versions), but they still look rather horrible on paper because of the resolution of the images.
You don't have a PDF/SVG version of the images that i can use instead?
Hi Calvin. I've uploaded the Inkscape SVG file to the skydrive (where you go to download the layouts). I don't have the time so set it all up correctly for high res renders, but now you can! Please put a link to the images after you render the high res versions, even if it's only for your race.
Hi Ticktock and asdir, I'll keep that in mind. Spamming W just sort of felt good for workers, and it was easier to remember. Aside from that, the only other reason it's on W is to share the finger load: your index and middle do a lot of selection and ability use, and your pinkie handles modifiers, so it would be good to put a common task on the ring to balance the load.
I think putting attack on W is a good plan. When I have time to make the next update, I will integrate that.
Keep nitpicking, guys! (And thanks for saying how much it's helped/you love it, it's great to hear that.)
Couldn't find the answer somewhere in this thread, so here goes:
With this layout, am I supposed to handle my groups on R and V both with the index finger or is it R with the middle and V with the index finger?
If the second, wouldn't that mean there are three different hand positions for this layout? One where I have my thumb on space and the others on QWEF, a second where I have thumb on alt and others on QWD while pinky free for shift and a third where I have my hand even more tilted so that index and middle can reach R and V at the same time.
Don't get me wrong, I know what feels better for me. I am just wondering about the concept.
On March 16 2012 19:15 asdir wrote: Couldn't find the answer somewhere in this thread, so here goes:
With this layout, am I supposed to handle my groups on R and V both with the index finger or is it R with the middle and V with the index finger?
If the second, wouldn't that mean there are three different hand positions for this layout? One where I have my thumb on space and the others on QWEF, a second where I have thumb on alt and others on QWD while pinky free for shift and a third where I have my hand even more tilted so that index and middle can reach R and V at the same time.
Don't get me wrong, I know what feels better for me. I am just wondering about the concept.
I use index for both R and V, that's how you do it with touch typing so it makes perfect sense... why would you ever want to press them at the same time?
I thought that the success with multi-pronged-attacks SirRaven described in the vid (I believe) might come from being able to switch between groups quickly because he had one finger for each group. But that probably was just me and my weird over-thinking.
On March 16 2012 19:58 asdir wrote: I thought that the success with multi-pronged-attacks SirRaven described in the vid (I believe) might come from being able to switch between groups quickly because he had one finger for each group. But that probably was just me and my weird over-thinking.
No worries, when you're used to it, jumping between R and V with your index finger is extremely fast since you're not moving your hand and only jumping over one key. Add in a G control group and you can do a multipronged attack while dropping in the back
Thanks for this thread. I will not switch to darkgrid however it gave me loads of great idea on how to improve my standard setup. I have been playing sc2 since the beta and feels silly to change hotkeys at this point, setting me back mechanically.
On March 16 2012 19:15 asdir wrote: Couldn't find the answer somewhere in this thread, so here goes:
With this layout, am I supposed to handle my groups on R and V both with the index finger or is it R with the middle and V with the index finger?
If the second, wouldn't that mean there are three different hand positions for this layout? One where I have my thumb on space and the others on QWEF, a second where I have thumb on alt and others on QWD while pinky free for shift and a third where I have my hand even more tilted so that index and middle can reach R and V at the same time.
Don't get me wrong, I know what feels better for me. I am just wondering about the concept.
I use index for both R and V, that's how you do it with touch typing so it makes perfect sense... why would you ever want to press them at the same time?
The whole point of it being R and V is to easily control both groups at the same time, and they definetely should be taken by seperate fingers, that is a huge jump for a single finger to make and way slower than using middle and index.
So yes asdir, middle on R and index on V.
EDIT: I believe I was wrong about this part, edited out.
Hm, I never thought about it before, but you are right, there are three hand possitions. A use my index for R and V most of the time, keeping the QWEFSpace possition, and switch over to Middle on R index on V when executing a two-pronged harass. You can switch back and forth between two drops ungodly fast.
Hi, i just switchted to darkgrid and i really like it. is there any reasoning behind the camera hotkeys being qwasdf, in my opion e and r is much more comfortable than a and s, so i changed that
On March 18 2012 01:26 oberheini wrote: Hi, i just switchted to darkgrid and i really like it. is there any reasoning behind the camera hotkeys being qwasdf, in my opion e and r is much more comfortable than a and s, so i changed that
The reason why the location hotkeys are qwdasf is because r is a hotkey, and the way your hand is supposed to be positioned it would be better to use alt to assign hotkeys instead of control. The problem with e, for zerg players, is that e is the larva inject shortcut and putting e as a location hotkey might cause problems with the inject system that darkgrid uses.
On March 18 2012 01:26 oberheini wrote: Hi, i just switchted to darkgrid and i really like it. is there any reasoning behind the camera hotkeys being qwasdf, in my opion e and r is much more comfortable than a and s, so i changed that
The reason why the location hotkeys are qwdasf is because r is a hotkey, and the way your hand is supposed to be positioned it would be better to use alt to assign hotkeys instead of control. The problem with e, for zerg players, is that e is the larva inject shortcut and putting e as a location hotkey might cause problems with the inject system that darkgrid uses.
I actually changed it from qwdasf to qweasd, no problems with inject being E, didn't even think about it before you mentioned it
I can already tell this will effect my play positively. Although I have a razer naga this will improve mouse accuracy and help with apm due to how I've changed the camera functions to the side buttons (they're on the num pad mode). So now I'll develop my habits and use camera buttons effectively . For Injects I've been holding shift after pressing e, centering my mouse and then holding b and clicking like a mad man. Once I'm done I use my cameras to return to where I want to be looking. This is of course with a queen on every base, I'm planning on using your method once I get to having to deal with queen less bases.
And thanks to switching to Dvorak keyboards in the past this is a cake walk in comparison to re-learning my keys. The only thing I don't like is using caps lock for workers. I have a fear I'll accidentally leave it on when chatting, but its a very minor issue.
Thanks for the amazing set up, I'll come update with my progress in a few weeks.
Edit: Three days of playing against the A.I. at my leisure has resulted in a leap from 140 apm (old apm) to 168. Also using cameras like your supposed to now and that apm wasn't even close to how far I'll be soon.
I know the keys very well and don't have to think about it or look for 90% of the hotkeys. You just have to use a musician's trick and go as fast as you can handle without mistakes until your ready, so playing against an easy A.I. for a few games is important. Then just speed up.
Oh, at one point I mentioned to you off site that I thought it would be a good idea to have raise/lower supply depots on separate hotkeys just like you already have burrow/unborrow.
You wanted me to post it here, but I forgot about it until now. This is me posting it here.
I'm still interested in the small changes/optimizations you have planned for the next version.
Three inconsistencies I wanted to mention (I mentioned some of this on skype, but I wanted to remind you): for zerg and protoss you have harassy stuff on R and V, but for terran you have it on 3 and 4 (with production on R)
And for terran and zerg you have main army on G with units requiring special micro on Space, but for Protoss you have main army on Space with special micro units on G
Lastly, you have terran keep barracks on a separate hotkey from starport/fact, but for protoss you have gates/stargate/robo all on the same key
One minor thing I was thinking about changing is moving stim from F to E, because I've had some times where I fat-finger stim when trying to select my units (or the reverse, when stimming a drop group accidentally selecting my main army). But that's something that goes away with practice.
I'm thinking of moving most of the abilities from F to E, since the pointer is already so busy with control group selection. What do you guys think of this?
I haven't played around with Zerg or Protoss enough to know if it would make anything awkward for them, but I think it's a good idea at least for Terran.
I just now looked through the hotkeys for units (didn't check through buildings) and noted some things that seem odd to me, keeping in mind your general setup rules for having importand stuff on EFD:
Zealots, sentries, and high templar all use C for abilities that could be on F E or D. Is there any reason for using C?
Tanks, Vikings, Corruptors, Banelings (why is disable building attack on 7?) have their stuff on F and D rather than F and E. Is there any reason why you aren't using E (which generally takes priority over D) for these units? It's easier to avoid fat fingering mistakes (say, half your vikings are landed and you want them to fly) with FE instead of FD.
I wanted to post this somewhere, but wasn't really sure if it's worth a thread.
I found out how to get rid of doubleclicking. Any time I ever want to select all X units, I always ctrl-click, so there's no use for doubleclick. Getting rid of it lets you spam clicks for snipe as fast as you can without accidentally selecting your opponent's unit (thus deselecting your ghosts and making it so you do absolutely nothing). There's a workaround for that problem outlined in a TL thread that involves hold position, hold fire, and shift-queueing snipes (and then un-hold-fire) (and with this method if your ghosts get hit they move despite the hold position, which completely stops them from doing their queued up snipe commands, so it doesn't work under fire). Without doubleclick, you can just hold down F and spam leftclick as fast as you can. It also prevents you from accidentally selecting all your workers when you mean to select just 1.
Anyways, to do it, open regedit and find "DoubleClickSpeed" in HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Mouse
Lower numbers mean you have to click faster for windows to count it as a "doubleclick" rather than 2 clicks. The fastest setting in the mouse properties is 200. Setting it to 50 or less makes it such that I physically can't execute a doubleclick.
Whenever you want doubleclicking back, set it to some number 200 or above
So after playing on standard layout forever, I've finally decided to change my hotkey setup. Initially I was thinking I'd just modify the current standard hotkey setup to move everything within range and simplify it a bit, but just thinking about that gave me shudders. I immediately remembered the DarkGrid setup and thought it would be worth checking out.
Your vids just about sold me, but I still had some concerns: I like to have hatches individually hotkeyed, and then have one hotkey for all the hatches. Additionally the 4+5 buttons on my Death Adder are kinda uncomfortable to get to, and my right thumb doesn't have the greatest muscle memory.
So I've altered it a little bit, resetting control groups 1-4 to 1-4 on the keyboard, with 5 = r, 6 = t, 7 = g and 8 = v. I think I might swap patrol and attack around, but in all likelihood I'll just get used to the current setup. Other than that comparitively minor adjustment, I've found the rest of the setup heavenly to use and I've only played about 5 or 6 games vs AI. Everything feels so much snappier and quicker, and the setup feels extremely natural and easy to use.
So I'd like to thank you for this, it's evident that you've put a lot of thought into it and it shows. Honestly I'm not sure how I managed the old standard setup. It always seemed to me like a really small deal - that a good hotkey setup might give you a slight advantage against a very equally matched opponent - but after only a few games I can see this benefitting me far more than I ever imagined.
On January 23 2012 04:23 besneeze wrote: The ideal position for this layout is Q, W,E, F, SPACE if I'm not mistaken.
Isn't it little counterproductive? I tried it and pressing ctrl + any other key led me to twisting my whole hand to the side.
Well, it's actually not that uncommon in RTS to play with the hand tilted. A way of making it easier is to tip the actual keyboard so you don't have to tilt your hand all that much. Also, with darkgrid, you shouldn't use ctrl all that much, it has binds to create controlgroups with alt, so alt+g creates a control group on g, same as ctrl+g. Using alt with this setup is way easier, but harder to get used to.
As for the question on pros, I mentioned darkgrid on Snutes channel and he said he finds it interesting. He's not using it though ^^
Alt + space is not a good idea mechanically.
True, toss setup isn't really optimal in this case. Then again, creating a control group is something you do very seldomly, most of the time you'll be using shift anyway.
This is my first day using darkgrid however the alt + space method has already become easy to me. I simply use my thumb to press both alt and space. Basically you hit alt with your thumb then slide your thumb sideways and more down alt using your thumbs knuckle to hit space. It's sounds harder than it is. I got very quick at it very fast.
@FoxyMayhem Thanks for this great layout! I just switched to this, and I'm practicing with the Trainer and custom games. I play Zerg and, for anyone who finds it useful I've made a cheatsheet (not sheat) as an overview of the layouts for what I found were the most important buildings/units/abilities. If anyone wants the images seperately, or the PSD, pls message me!
On February 18 2012 11:40 soLremarK wrote: hmmm, overall pretty cute idea but I don't think it's worth it, especially for anyone more than a month into the game.
Your average player (Protoss at least) is better off just readjusting standard keys a bit
Did you even put an effort into trying it? It's miles ahead the standard layout, especially the layered base cameras.
This is a bit of a late reply, but I spent a while learning it, in customs by myself and ladder on smurf accounts and eventually ladder on my main account. The conclusions I came to are that overall, some of the motions feel awkward (not in an "I'm unfamiliar with this layout, muscle memory blabla" way, but in terms of very strange combinations of keys. Multiple spells and abilities + the hotkeys don't syenergize nearly as well as the Blizzard defaults do, and with very simple tweaks for that, you can have 6 camera hotkeys easily available, 7 army control groups, and a substantially lower learning curve. I don't know why any Protoss player at least would have any incentive to try this out
Sirath, what a layout! Very Nice.you're very welcome, and the appreciation means a lot. I have put a massive amount of time into this.sorry for the delay in replying.if you update your image to account for the new changes, I'll put it on the front page.
Alright guys, I've updated some of the spell layouts and swapped the barracks And Command Center., Gateway and Nexis production hotkeys. I've also moved unload to E, making the R and V multiple drop control a bit more natural. Overall, it's a small update, but it should help bring everything to be a bit smoother and a bit snappier. Also, there is only one version now for all three races.
So tomorrow is newbie Tuesday on day9, and is asking people to submit a game where you lost and then you talk about the control groups you used. Oh how I wish we could get darkgrid into the discussion somehow! I don't think submitting a replay of a master player playing like a total boss with darkgrid would help, too bad…
Remark, can you be specific about what positions feel unnatural? What spell combinations have a poor flow? The generalizations don't really help me solve the issue, but specific feedback is great.
On March 20 2012 09:32 FoxyMayhem wrote: I'm thinking of moving most of the abilities from F to E, since the pointer is already so busy with control group selection. What do you guys think of this?
Hi Fox I ve been using the dargrid since 2 months and i feel now that i have faster macro mechanics than before. By the way i still make huge missclick when microing tanks but i am sure i am going through that. The only thing if think that should be updated is the stimpack shortcut usally i overstim - by selecting my army : i want to click "g" but i press "f" and stim once more - by macroing : i forget to press mouse button for rax and spam dfdfdfdd... And so i overstim my rines.
So i think you should exchange E and F button to avoid that.
Thanks anyway for this great work you have done for the community
Can anyone open the SC2Hotkeys with notepad and copy and paste it (with spoiler tags so it doesn't take up space). I can't seem to get skydrive working (yes, I use noscript + yes I allowed the site but can't get it to work >.>).
Also same with instructions? Would be really appreciated, thanks.
On April 10 2012 12:47 FoxyMayhem wrote: Sirath, what a layout! Very Nice.you're very welcome, and the appreciation means a lot. I have put a massive amount of time into this.sorry for the delay in replying.if you update your image to account for the new changes, I'll put it on the front page.
Sorry for the slow reply, I've uploaded an updated version here.
If anyone wants to edit the layouts to accommodate for their personal changes, you can download the photoshop PSD file here.
I would like to know : which mouse are you using ?
I possess a razer imperator and I am struggling with the terran "mouse button enabled" configuration. I use to hold my mouse in a grip mode like I think, most of RTS player.
about the terran "mouse buttons enabled" I think that is very difficult to be efficient pressing the CC&tech button then Rax button because both of them have to be pressed with my thumb ... and in a claw grip mode you are already holding the mouse with the top of each of your fingers which mean you can press but you can't move your right hand fingers.
I have made a photo of the situation : here is a picture of how i hold the mouse (claw grip) :
another view :
and look what happens when i have to press the CC / rax button : CC button :
Rax button :
by moving my thumb, I have to release the mouse itself. you can try it.
So my questions : do I have to change my mouse to find proper mouse placements ? So which mouse are you using ? Or claw grip is not compatible with mouse enhanced configuration and I have to switch with a mouseless configuration ?
I've been using Darkgrid for a while now so I thought I'd share my feelings on the layout. I'll note that I own a Razer Orochi and have bound my extra keys on my mouse to O and P using my mouse's drivers.
I really like this setup a lot, particularly having Caps Lock being the Idle Worker button, I find it's really handy to have and easy to use. Whenever I play Terran, and I see Idle workers, I know I have to build something with them (" CapslockFE " is extremely easy to use for constantly building Supply Depots), or it's a SCV Scout. I find, for scouting, if you go back to build something and if your scout idles, at all, it's really good to have the function bound so easily accessible since it takes you right to the idle worker and can then continue scouting with him. I think what I want to do for scouting however, is force myself to use 1 or 2 on the enemy base so I can manage my scout and see what's building. It'll be useful also when I scan their main to check for tech later in the game. " 1PE; click "
Camera Hotkeys and Control Groups are the only things I'm still getting used to with this setup. It's probably a lot easier for me to " Alt+W; PF; click " for Mules if I could remember to set the camera hotkeys. It's something I'll have to work on by forcing myself to do it, especially since it's something that's going to be so important to my Zerg play. The control groups make a lot of sense when I slow down to use them, but I'm just not remembering to continuously keep up with adding my units to the groups, which is something I just need to work on doing in general for the sake of getting better at this game.
I got my friend to use this layout as well, he plays Protoss and is loving the accessible camera hotkey for his warp in Pylon. I'll get the rest of his thoughts on the layout, I don't know how much he's using the layered base cameras, but I'm fairly sure he forgets to use his ramp one, or else I don't think I should be able to get up into his ramp. I know when he's producing workers, he said, that he wants to press Q. I'm not sure if he used Grid or Standard, but if he used Grid it may be a habit from when he used that layout. I've also tried using Protoss when I first started switching to the Layout and I really wanted to press E to make both Probes and Pylons. I honestly thought that was the most intuitive thing about learning the standard hotkey layout, Workers and Supply Buildings using the same hotkey for Protoss and Terran. I imagine the reasoning behind not doing so for this layout is either related to Drones being W and Overlords having to be a seperate hotkey, making you want to keep the layouts as similar as possible; or it's something to do with reaction time that I'm not aware of.
Speaking of Drones, the only thing I found extremely annoying about Grid format is actually mitigated with this setup, I find. With Grid, the hotkey to select larva and the hotkey to produce drones are both Q, with Darkgrid they're both W. When I tried out Grid I found myself spamming Q in order to try to select my larva and I would then proceed to make Drones when I didn't want to. I then forced myself to stop spamming just Q and to spam 4Q which was much better, but compared to Darkgrid, where I can spam PW without moving my fingers into an entirely seperate position to spam for larva, which I find to be fantastic.
The only thing I'm finding annoying with the layout is hitting X or Z; C is exceptionally easy to reach. I'd say X isn't hard to hit from the standard position, but since I find myself making Reactors instead of Techlabs entirely too often, what I've been trying to do lately is for Z X or C is claw my hand down so that I have my pinky on Shift, Ring on Z, Middle on X, and my pointer on C. It seems to be a easy position to transition into and out of, but I'm curious what you do for those buttons, particularly Z. Also out of curiosity, why is Hold Position on W and Stop on S? I'm used to Stop being right next to Attack, and I was thinking about changing it, so I'm curious what the reasoning is for it staying S rather than moving to the top row with Attack.
im having issues in creating control groups with mouse4 and mouse5, is there any problem if my mouse buttons have some other functions off-game? mine has next page - back page.
eedit: well, got to change a few things in the control group tab (8 and 0 to mouse4 and mouse5) and it`s working now. =)
On May 02 2012 13:42 SirPsychoMantis wrote: Looks like Darkgrid has a friendly competitor, will be interesting to look at more of the specific differences.
Not a fan. How Darkgrid has your hand on the QWEF keys and how it uses that to it's advantage is not captured by this setup. I feel like you have to move your hand up and down on the keyboard a lot, which delays your actions.
On May 02 2012 20:32 Match wrote: I don't like the hotkeys on your mouse. Any viable alternatives for those?
Darkgrid has a Mouseless option, you can look at the layout and download it in the first post.
To look at it, uncollapse the layout spoiler, find your race, then underneath the mouse enhanced layout you can uncollapse two printer friendly layouts, mouse enhanced and mouseless.
ive been using for about two weeks and right now im playing better than before changing the hotkeys. you really need to just focus on using it. i started 3v3 and 4v4 with my friends to get used to it and after that 1v1. i lost lot of matches, in fact i started facing plat when im diamond-master. im also zergie and i use the mouseless options with same layout as specified.
why i tried it?im kind of person that started typing very young with keyboard and learned by myself. i dont know to write properly, in fact maybe i use like 2 or 3 fingers per hand. when i move my hand to push keys far away i just missclick a lot, so i saw this configuration and i thought it was perfect for me and its true.
if people have this problem like me or similar, should try this configuration
On May 02 2012 13:42 SirPsychoMantis wrote: Looks like Darkgrid has a friendly competitor, will be interesting to look at more of the specific differences.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention, y'all. JaKaTaK has been promising to give a breakdown on why his is better. I'm really looking forward to it, to get this puppy streamlined even further.
Hey hey! You don't need to bind you mouse buttons to O and P! The hotkey customizer in sc2 recognizes the 4th and 5th mouse buttons!!
EDIT: I got maaad respect for Darkgrid and FoxyMayhem. I think that we are offering different things in terms of hotkey layout (with mouse, without mouse) but who knows. Maybe a long way down the line our paths will converge to form an Archon Hotkey Layout! Either way, at the time being, i think that neither one will be better than the other, and that we will each help the other to get both setups the best they can be :D
On May 04 2012 07:04 JaKaTaK wrote: Hey hey! You don't need to bind you mouse buttons to O and P! The hotkey customizer in sc2 recognizes the 4th and 5th mouse buttons!!
EDIT: I got maaad respect for Darkgrid and FoxyMayhem. I think that we are offering different things in terms of hotkey layout (with mouse, without mouse) but who knows. Maybe a long way down the line our paths will converge to form an Archon Hotkey Layout! Either way, at the time being, i think that neither one will be better than the other, and that we will each help the other to get both setups the best they can be :D
I do this, one thing to point out in your drivers you want to make sure your mouse buttons are set to generic windows buttons.
Ex. in my Razer settings they are "Windows Button 4" and "Windows Button 5"
Please can somebody tell me at least which fingers do you use for mouse buttons 3 and 4 ? I find the thumb very uncomfortable with the way i hold my mouse.
Thanks
On April 27 2012 17:22 Kortex22 wrote: Hi Darkgrid users !
I would like to know : which mouse are you using ?
I possess a razer imperator and I am struggling with the terran "mouse button enabled" configuration. I use to hold my mouse in a grip mode like I think, most of RTS player.
about the terran "mouse buttons enabled" I think that is very difficult to be efficient pressing the CC&tech button then Rax button because both of them have to be pressed with my thumb ... and in a claw grip mode you are already holding the mouse with the top of each of your fingers which mean you can press but you can't move your right hand fingers.
I have made a photo of the situation : here is a picture of how i hold the mouse (claw grip) :
another view :
and look what happens when i have to press the CC / rax button : CC button :
Rax button :
by moving my thumb, I have to release the mouse itself. you can try it.
So my questions : do I have to change my mouse to find proper mouse placements ? So which mouse are you using ? Or claw grip is not compatible with mouse enhanced configuration and I have to switch with a mouseless configuration ?
A thing that bothers me for a while now: Is there enough space on the keyboard when morphing larvae for the new units in HotS? Provided there will be 2 new units (and all old ones), the Z would not be enough.
Just wondering if you thought about that already, FoxyMayhem.
Otherwise I am pretty happy with darkgrid (after I changed W and Q for units, as mentioned above).Still love the idea and that someone else did the hard work for me.
Yeah, I will be making an HotS optimized one when it comes out. I'm not worried about units fitting, I can make alt+E a rarely built unit, or just put the Hydralisk on the other size of the keyboard, ha ha ha. I may tweak the layout a tiny bit to compensate to we don't have to do those if it turns out more efficient, though.
hey foxy, how are the fingers suppose to be when injecting? I'm trying it now and it feels a bit ackward tucking the thumb in. Is it suppose to be like
pinky hold shift index press E thumb to alt ring finger to Q left click middle to W left click index to D
Pinkie to shift and thumb to alt, only press and hold shift. Index press e. Press and hold alt. Ring to Q. Left Click Middle to W. Left click. Index to D.
You mostly have it right, but getting your thumb on alt before you begin the process makes for a more comfortable hand position. It is a bit awkward at first.
I have one q about protoss layout. Can you do it like terran style? Put major production buildings to those three numbers (3-5)? Like: 4 - nexus 3 - Robo/stargate 5 - Gate/warpgates
I cant use those delicious mouse buttons since i've mouse which doesnt have any of those.
I personally find this pretty good, but will it fuck up the whole great system u've developed?
@kORALIE: Yes you can, and it's quite good as well.
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JaKaTaK and I are joining forces. During a 5 hour call today, we made a breakthrough in keyboard layout efficiency.
If you guys like Darkgrid, feel free to stick with it, it's a fantastic layout. We won't even publish the new one if it doesn't turn out better.
...but if it does turn out like it's looking to, I don't think I could ever play Darkgrid 1.3 again. This is as big an improvement as Layered cameras were. The bad news: the layout works very different in half the places, which is why I can believe many won't want to switch again. For those who might, for some masochistic reason, want to help us test the layout and refine it, shoot me a PM.
Testing will begin in a week. Can't say from there, we'll just have to see how many kinks need ironing out. After so many layouts I'd like to think I'm better at this, and can foresee more problems, ha, but we'll see.
one problem i have with 1.3b is the layered camera. I can't do the thumb on alt comfortably. Several of the hotkey changes are very useful and i'm going to use those, like changing all the abilities and upgrade hotkeys. Another hard thing to use is G as main army group. It's too far of a stretch for me from "G" to "Q".
I experimented for about 4 hours with this layout today and I have mix feelings. The traditional "1-5" control groups is too ingrained in my muscle memory. I also don't see the need to change attack move from "a" to "q". I might try again sometime soon with my own twist to it. I definitely took some hotkey changes from darkgrid to my set up.
I'll be looking forward to your project with jakatak!
Both of those things are addressed in the new layout, so far.
Attack is on Q since that's where your fingers rest (QWEF). It takes 25-45 milliseconds to press a key under the finger, and 190-250 so press a key one row above, that's 5-10x as long. If I didn't put the most frequently used and time-sensitive keys right under the finger, I'd be doing a poor job of making the best layout.
Im a bit sad that you guys are working on a new layout, if it has huge changes to darkgrid it is kind of hard (not so hard) to switch over again.
Played over 1000 games with standard keys and just a week ago started to learn this new one. Change was easy, ofc muscle memory is pain in the ass, but this darkgrid layout makes so much sense that it was pretty easy to adapt, took like 50 games against AI and im good to ladder again.
I just hope when u guys release the new layout, u will stick to it completely, do some minor tweaks here and there and so on.
Thank you for this great layout, I cant even thank you enough how much better my left wrist feels.
Hey hey! You don't need to bind you mouse buttons to O and P! The hotkey customizer in sc2 recognizes the 4th and 5th mouse buttons!!
I realize this, but I play several games that either don't recognize either extra mouse button or that only recognize the 4th mouse button. It's simpler to keep it consistent between games I think.
Hi,
Please can somebody tell me at least which fingers do you use for mouse buttons 3 and 4 ? I find the thumb very uncomfortable with the way i hold my mouse.
Thanks
I use my thumb, but I also use the fingertip grip so it works out for me. Sorry I can't really offer much help.
On May 05 2012 17:56 kORALIE wrote: Im a bit sad that you guys are working on a new layout, if it has huge changes to darkgrid it is kind of hard (not so hard) to switch over again.
Played over 1000 games with standard keys and just a week ago started to learn this new one. Change was easy, ofc muscle memory is pain in the ass, but this darkgrid layout makes so much sense that it was pretty easy to adapt, took like 50 games against AI and im good to ladder again.
I just hope when u guys release the new layout, u will stick to it completely, do some minor tweaks here and there and so on.
Thank you for this great layout, I cant even thank you enough how much better my left wrist feels.
You're welcome!
Yeah, it sucks to switch to Darkgrid only to learn that a different one is on the way. We told everyone as fast as we could, to try to save the people just thinking of switching.
As far as sticking with a layout, my goal has always been to make the best layout you can on a keyboard. If we discover a new way to up the efficiency as drastically as we have again, I'll make a new layout. The good news is, the old layout are still WAAAY better than standard or grid, so those who don't want to switch, don't have to. That said, I will be providing legacy support for those who stay on Dakgrid, releasing version for HotS and a LotV, and updates if any big metagame shifts make it less efficient. There are some keyboards out there that just won't allow for the new layout to work, and for them, Darkgrid is great.
On May 05 2012 17:56 kORALIE wrote: Im a bit sad that you guys are working on a new layout, if it has huge changes to darkgrid it is kind of hard (not so hard) to switch over again.
Played over 1000 games with standard keys and just a week ago started to learn this new one. Change was easy, ofc muscle memory is pain in the ass, but this darkgrid layout makes so much sense that it was pretty easy to adapt, took like 50 games against AI and im good to ladder again.
I just hope when u guys release the new layout, u will stick to it completely, do some minor tweaks here and there and so on.
Thank you for this great layout, I cant even thank you enough how much better my left wrist feels.
You're welcome!
Yeah, it sucks to switch to Darkgrid only to learn that a different one is on the way. We told everyone as fast as we could, to try to save the people just thinking of switching.
As far as sticking with a layout, my goal has always been to make the best layout you can on a keyboard. If we discover a new way to up the efficiency as drastically as we have again, I'll make a new layout. The good news is, the old layout are still WAAAY better than standard or grid, so those who don't want to switch, don't have to. That said, I will be providing legacy support for those who stay on Dakgrid, releasing version for HotS and a LotV, and updates if any big metagame shifts make it less efficient. There are some keyboards out there that just won't allow for the new layout to work, and for them, Darkgrid is great.
Don't let 'backwards compatibility' or tradition hold you back or even have ANY influence over decisions. The whole point of this thing is to completely rethink hotkey standards and build the best. Onward to a new world of efficiency and APM!
Why test privately though? As long as you make it clear that everything is subject to change and people may not want to get used to it yet... just post what you've got so far!
Alright Darkgrid players, we need your replays! Send them to me with your leaque (upload to a replay site, or something like google drive or microsoft skydrive). We'll be scanning them for statistics and comparing them to pros to help us design the new layouts.
ASAP. Thanks a ton!
(P.S. for all of those who were helping us with key frequencies, we're scanning replays directly now, so just give us your replays. Thanks a ton.)
http://drop.sc/175462 silver (am playing gold leaguers though). I do use a AZERTY keyboard so some keys are different, if that's what you're looking for.
Imo, instead of using normal players to gather your data, shouldn't you just download all the replay packs from major tournaments in 2012 and use those? I'd rather have a hotkey setup that lets me play like DRG than like my friend Ben in bronze.
Okay, running into an issue with the data that we could really use help for. we need to know every single situation where it is necessary to use stop as opposed to using hold position. Please read all below this post so that there are no repeats. Thanks
Stop marine stutter step is a bit better than hold position stutter step, since when you look away your marines will still move to be aggressive. But this is the only one I know. What other cases is stop better than hold?
One instance when I've used stop is when you spam inject right after they finish and one of your queens don't have quite enough energy, they start walking around. Hold would work for that, but I think a stopped queen would be better than a hold-ed queen. The difference is negligible, but it technically is better to use stop in that case. (this would be right after the queens start walking. Soon enough so that it would not be necessary to move the queens back to the hatchery)
Edit: If in the middle of a battle, if you try to focus something but it is pulled back, you would want to press stop on your army as opposed to hold position.
I personally prefer a-move to stop in all battle situations, since there could be units reinforcing that you added to your control group, and you want them to come to your aid, such as when you're doing some sort of proxy rax cheeze.
Placing OLs in specific positions( looking at gases etc) is easier to stop in the correct position than trying to click it. And then you want to have them to move by themselves if they get attacked therefore stop instead of hold.
Only reason I've ever used stop was to get my scv to stop building a rax or something when a drone comes along and starts harassing it. Otherwise, hold does the job well...
On May 14 2012 07:27 silly wrote: Placing OLs in specific positions( looking at gases etc) is easier to stop in the correct position than trying to click it. And then you want to have them to move by themselves if they get attacked therefore stop instead of hold.
Fortunately, OLs can't really get away from anything so I feel hold position would work just fine.
On May 14 2012 07:45 Amaterasu1234 wrote: Only reason I've ever used stop was to get my scv to stop building a rax or something when a drone comes along and starts harassing it. Otherwise, hold does the job well...
Also Fortuantely, halt construction is different than the stop command :D
So far I'm only seeing slightly better stutter step as necessary.
Hold positioned workers don't show up as idle. So there's 2 things you need stop for.
F1 split: say banelings are about to hit your mineral line. Box your workers, hit stop. Then hold "idle workers" down and spam right-click all over your screen as fast as you can. (If you've never done this before, go ahead and try it vs the computer. It's kind of cool and is the absolute fastest split you can do)
Cancelling a queued order for an SCV that is building something: Say I set an SCV to build a factory, and out of habit I told it to go back to minerals but I actually want this SCV to build a starport right after the factory completes, right next to the factory. To cancel the "go back to mining" command, I box the SCV and hit stop (I do not use shift). The "stop" actually gets queued to happen after the factory finishes. That way as soon as the factory finishes I see the idle worker and can just hit "idle workers" to select it. If you used hold instead of stop, the SCV never becomes idle. If you issued a move command at the SCV's feet instead, you might waste a few seconds in travel time if the SCV happens to be on the opposite side of the building when it completes.
I don't know why Amaterasu says stop gets an SCV to stop building, cause that's not what it does. I'm pretty sure you need to use "halt construction" for that.
Those are the only two that come to mind right away.
Similar to the worker splitting situation explained above, sometimes during a hectic battle in my main or natural I may accidentally box probes in with my main army. When they are all mixed in with the rest of the units, it is very difficult to pull them back out for mining. In this case, I like to box my whole army, hit "stop," then select idle probes to send them back. Much faster than simple waiting for my army to finish whatever command they were doing previously.
On May 14 2012 10:25 Borskey wrote: Hold positioned workers don't show up as idle. So there's 2 things you need stop for.
F1 split: say banelings are about to hit your mineral line. Box your workers, hit stop. Then hold "idle workers" down and spam right-click all over your screen as fast as you can. (If you've never done this before, go ahead and try it vs the computer. It's kind of cool and is the absolute fastest split you can do)
Cancelling a queued order for an SCV that is building something: Say I set an SCV to build a factory, and out of habit I told it to go back to minerals but I actually want this SCV to build a starport right after the factory completes, right next to the factory. To cancel the "go back to mining" command, I box the SCV and hit stop (I do not use shift). The "stop" actually gets queued to happen after the factory finishes. That way as soon as the factory finishes I see the idle worker and can just hit "idle workers" to select it. If you used hold instead of stop, the SCV never becomes idle. If you issued a move command at the SCV's feet instead, you might waste a few seconds in travel time if the SCV happens to be on the opposite side of the building when it completes.
I don't know why Amaterasu says stop gets an SCV to stop building, cause that's not what it does. I'm pretty sure you need to use "halt construction" for that.
Those are the only two that come to mind right away.
the F1 split is a good example, however, you can just right click the ground to cancel the shift back to mining and build the starport right after.
Thanks :D
On May 14 2012 10:58 bgalang92 wrote: Similar to the worker splitting situation explained above, sometimes during a hectic battle in my main or natural I may accidentally box probes in with my main army. When they are all mixed in with the rest of the units, it is very difficult to pull them back out for mining. In this case, I like to box my whole army, hit "stop," then select idle probes to send them back. Much faster than simple waiting for my army to finish whatever command they were doing previously.
I feel like ctrl+clicking will be faster, because the idle probes will only appear as idle when they stop moving, whereas you could ctrl+click a probe and send em all back soopa quick :D
I feel like ctrl+clicking will be faster, because the idle probes will only appear as idle when they stop moving, whereas you could ctrl+click a probe and send em all back soopa quick :D
While I would normally agree with you, I'm talking about a situation when a mineral line will also be on the screen, such as when I'm defending a big drop or even multiple drops when army management gets very difficult, so CTRL clicking might not be the most efficient, unless you don't mind having to reassign workers back to gas and having all your workers group up on a single patch.
On May 14 2012 07:45 Amaterasu1234 wrote: Only reason I've ever used stop was to get my scv to stop building a rax or something when a drone comes along and starts harassing it. Otherwise, hold does the job well...
Also Fortuantely, halt construction is different than the stop command :D
Do they have to be from people who used the darkgrid layout completely? If people send you replays with a slightly different or perhaps outdated layout, would it screw things up?
If you're trying to figure out the BEST way to lay things out, it might not be a good idea to base some of those on the habits of players. A real obvious example of why that might not be a good idea, say you get replays from people who don't focus banelings with their tanks, and your conclusion ends up being that you don't need a separate group for tanks since they never get selected. Obviously you wouldn't make that particular mistake, but hopefully you understand what I mean.
Baracks on two instead of having two camera hotkeys for 1 and 2. I only need the 1. I also kept attack as A and rebinded patrol to P. I don't understand why those were switched and it is MUCH easier to re-learn this way. Everything else is awesome and the baracks rebind was due to only having one good extra mouse button that works for my thumb.
I feel like ctrl+clicking will be faster, because the idle probes will only appear as idle when they stop moving, whereas you could ctrl+click a probe and send em all back soopa quick :D
While I would normally agree with you, I'm talking about a situation when a mineral line will also be on the screen, such as when I'm defending a big drop or even multiple drops when army management gets very difficult, so CTRL clicking might not be the most efficient, unless you don't mind having to reassign workers back to gas and having all your workers group up on a single patch.
Good point. I was not thinking of other workers on the screen. How do you avoid all workers grouping up on single patch with idle worker that is more efficient than the auto-split. I disagree with this last point you make.
I'm a little confused by the last point you make xD haha. What I mean is that control clicking when a mineral line is in view is going to pull all the workers in your army AND the mining workers to the same patch before they auto split, resulting in some lost mining time, as well as having to reassign workers back to gas, something you can avoid if you stop+idle worker select, so only the idle workers will be selected..
On May 15 2012 14:56 bgalang92 wrote: I'm a little confused by the last point you make xD haha. What I mean is that control clicking when a mineral line is in view is going to pull all the workers in your army AND the mining workers to the same patch before they auto split, resulting in some lost mining time, as well as having to reassign workers back to gas, something you can avoid if you stop+idle worker select, so only the idle workers will be selected..
I use stop when microing stalkers cause I don't have the micro to maintain a perfect concave while running away. Hitting stop gets me maybe an extra shot or two because the stalkers that are out of the arc come back to shoot instead of staying where they are and doing nothing if they were on hold. Same thing with marines, hydras, colossus, etc.
Also, I would say my default action when I want things to hold still is to use stop because then the AI helps units run away or attack when given the opportunity. When I absolutely want things to hold still (worker wall, keep DTs from getting up ramp, etc) I will use hold position. Otherwise it's always stop.
On May 16 2012 01:37 UpooPoo wrote: I use stop when microing stalkers cause I don't have the micro to maintain a perfect concave while running away. Hitting stop gets me maybe an extra shot or two because the stalkers that are out of the arc come back to shoot instead of staying where they are and doing nothing if they were on hold. Same thing with marines, hydras, colossus, etc.
Also, I would say my default action when I want things to hold still is to use stop because then the AI helps units run away or attack when given the opportunity. When I absolutely want things to hold still (worker wall, keep DTs from getting up ramp, etc) I will use hold position. Otherwise it's always stop.
This is definitely the kind of stuff I'm looking for. The advantage of hold is that a small portion of your army doesn't get aggro'd and run into siege tank fire, etc etc. So, per game, are there more situations where you want the units you aren't paying attention to to be aggro'd or not to be aggro'd, that is the question.
On May 16 2012 01:37 UpooPoo wrote: I use stop when microing stalkers cause I don't have the micro to maintain a perfect concave while running away. Hitting stop gets me maybe an extra shot or two because the stalkers that are out of the arc come back to shoot instead of staying where they are and doing nothing if they were on hold. Same thing with marines, hydras, colossus, etc.
Also, I would say my default action when I want things to hold still is to use stop because then the AI helps units run away or attack when given the opportunity. When I absolutely want things to hold still (worker wall, keep DTs from getting up ramp, etc) I will use hold position. Otherwise it's always stop.
This is definitely the kind of stuff I'm looking for. The advantage of hold is that a small portion of your army doesn't get aggro'd and run into siege tank fire, etc etc. So, per game, are there more situations where you want the units you aren't paying attention to to be aggro'd or not to be aggro'd, that is the question.
So, in this new layout you guys are creating, are you specifying exactly how armies should be organized into various control groups and specifically which keys activate those groups ? I get that impression from the detail you're hoping to get, which is well beyond simply determining that both 'Stop' and 'Hold Position" are necessary. If the control group composition is 'hard-wired' into the layout, does that lend itself too much into a particular style of play which would hurt the overall ability to use the layout for other styles ?
On May 16 2012 01:37 UpooPoo wrote: I use stop when microing stalkers cause I don't have the micro to maintain a perfect concave while running away. Hitting stop gets me maybe an extra shot or two because the stalkers that are out of the arc come back to shoot instead of staying where they are and doing nothing if they were on hold. Same thing with marines, hydras, colossus, etc.
Also, I would say my default action when I want things to hold still is to use stop because then the AI helps units run away or attack when given the opportunity. When I absolutely want things to hold still (worker wall, keep DTs from getting up ramp, etc) I will use hold position. Otherwise it's always stop.
This is definitely the kind of stuff I'm looking for. The advantage of hold is that a small portion of your army doesn't get aggro'd and run into siege tank fire, etc etc. So, per game, are there more situations where you want the units you aren't paying attention to to be aggro'd or not to be aggro'd, that is the question.
So, in this new layout you guys are creating, are you specifying exactly how armies should be organized into various control groups and specifically which keys activate those groups ? I get that impression from the detail you're hoping to get, which is well beyond simply determining that both 'Stop' and 'Hold Position" are necessary. If the control group composition is 'hard-wired' into the layout, does that lend itself too much into a particular style of play which would hurt the overall ability to use the layout for other styles ?
Absolutely not. This will be a fairly flexible layout in regards to how you use your control groups. We will obviously be suggesting the way we think it is most efficient to use, but the 10 Control Groups will be as easy to press as possible in balance with the abilities being as easy to press as possible. (2+2 left/right split like JaKaTaK Righty). Using different Control Groups for different functions than we believe to be most efficient is super easy to do.
I'd like to further announce that we've just announced the announcement of the announcement and will be working around the clock until we can make said announcement. We just jumped from 750ish to 2192 pro tournament replays being compiled for data in order to make this setup as efficient as we can make it. We're not going to release a beta test version if there are things we already know we want to change, but just haven't got to yet. When the changes that remain require testing to decide, the beta will be released. Understand that Voltaire is writing programs so that we can have the best tools to get this layout as excellent as possible. We really appreciate all of your interest and patience. See you soon :D
All you have to do is make your changes in-game :D just download Darkgrid and put it in its proper place. Then load up the game, go to options>hotkeys and make the changes you want :D
On May 16 2012 09:40 JaKaTaK wrote: All you have to do is make your changes in-game :D just download Darkgrid and put it in its proper place. Then load up the game, go to options>hotkeys and make the changes you want :D
Can't I do it without Darkgrid? I mean I don't want Darkgrid settings - only to change these two hotkeys and that's it.
You can modify the hotkeys for any layout in the hotkeys section of the menu. In order to "select templar in a group", you need to assign all the templar to a seperate control group when setting your main army control group. It's not automatic, you have to do it manually.
On May 16 2012 11:11 Natespank wrote: What's your backgrounds, Jaka and Foxy? You both seem pretty hardcore about keyboard efficiency. Seems almost like you've studied it.
I'll let Foxy speak for himself of course. I studied music in college. I majored in voice, but I played a lot of guitar before that, and still do, took a swing at piano, drums and a few other instruments as well. Really I'm just an efficiency enthusiast and a puzzle solver. Grew up gaming in a style my friend calls "min-maxing" Spent hours figuring out the perfect GF setup for 3 characters in Final Fantasy VIII, grinding out a 30 hour save file that starts you will all the cards and items you need to get 300 of the highest level magics as soon as you get the refine ability so that I could play through the game without any grinding. Worked on making the highest DPS D&D 3.5 character instead of actually role playing. That kind of stuff. As soon as I saw LiquidNonY talk about using F and D for phoenix harass I realized there was a new puzzle to solve and cracked into it as soon as I could. I love doing this kind of stuff and I'm excited that this time more people than just me will be able to benefit from what we're trying to do. :D
On May 16 2012 11:04 FoxyMayhem wrote: You can modify the hotkeys for any layout in the hotkeys section of the menu. In order to "select templar in a group", you need to assign all the templar to a seperate control group when setting your main army control group. It's not automatic, you have to do it manually.
My parents let me take a ton of stuff apart as a kid, and I'd usually sit up watching NOVA on PBS every night. I always love asking "why" and "how" (a trait from my mother). When you ask those questions, you begin to see the thoughts of designers -- their goals, criteria, priorities, sacrifices, like you're designing it with them. This lead to imitation, and eventually "can I do better".
The answer turned out to be "yes" often enough to keep it fun, and if a try failed there was only 2 possible outcomes: 1) learn even more design from why it performs worse, or 2) see what a stellar design the original was and take notes. As far as those questions are concerned, both outcomes are success.
I had severe wrist problems, and I liked Starcraft 2, but the issues really limited my play. It's funny, because when LiquidNonY mentioned putting control groups on F and D, it broke my mind out of the broodwar control scheme box. And just like JaK, I started finding ways to improve the design. I researched ergonomics, alternative keyboard layouts, and Scrooge McDuck'ed into the puzzle.
On May 16 2012 17:38 Kaitlin wrote: When did NonY make that comment about D & F ?
On State of the Game. The patch to customize keys hit in january of 2011 so it had to be after that, but there are a whole lot of episodes of SotG, I tried to find it one time, but to no avail. I would really like to know which episode it is so I can watch it again :D Someone find it and report back here!!!
EDIT: The patch to customize hotkeys hit on the PTR before january! So it may be slightly before Jan 2011!
On May 16 2012 17:38 Kaitlin wrote: When did NonY make that comment about D & F ?
On State of the Game. The patch to customize keys hit in january of 2011 so it had to be after that, but there are a whole lot of episodes of SotG, I tried to find it one time, but to no avail. I would really like to know which episode it is so I can watch it again :D Someone find it and report back here!!!
EDIT: The patch to customize hotkeys hit on the PTR before january! So it may be slightly before Jan 2011!
... and here I thought I was the first to completely change the hotkeys lol... Although I don't know how extensively he changed his
On State of the Game. The patch to customize keys hit in january of 2011 so it had to be after that, but there are a whole lot of episodes of SotG, I tried to find it one time, but to no avail. I would really like to know which episode it is so I can watch it again :D Someone find it and report back here!!!
EDIT: The patch to customize hotkeys hit on the PTR before january! So it may be slightly before Jan 2011!
We thought we were going to finish scoring the different key reaches for the layout today. But as we looked closer, some penalties were vague, not measured enough, or needed to be defined differently, so we sat down and spent two and a half hours redefining the scoring system today. It's AWESOME now, and will do a lot better scoring accurately from one layout to the next, being less subjective. But, it is another unforeseen delay. The best I can say is "we'll see". Or rather, soon(TM). Er, I seriously don't think that's a Blizzard "Soon", yeesh.
(For those curious, the scoring is a system of applying penalties: or instance, if your finger is fully extended before pressing the key, pressing the key is less ergonomic, awkward, and sometimes slower. Any key that this is generally true of recieves a +1 difficulty penalty. The pinkie hates being overburdened, and so a penalty is applied to any key struck by the pinkie. Wrist rotation is a no-no for speed and especially ergonomics, to it receives a penalty.
A great example of what we updated to day: Horizontal reaches now receive penalties based how far the knuckle joint extends, and how far spreads from its neighbor knuckle as measured in percent, rather than approximately how many keys over a key is. This new way of measuring accounts for hand rotation, wrist flexion, and the differing mobility ranges of various knuckles, while the old system did not. You bet your bollocks it's better.)
On State of the Game. The patch to customize keys hit in january of 2011 so it had to be after that, but there are a whole lot of episodes of SotG, I tried to find it one time, but to no avail. I would really like to know which episode it is so I can watch it again :D Someone find it and report back here!!!
EDIT: The patch to customize hotkeys hit on the PTR before january! So it may be slightly before Jan 2011!
On May 19 2012 12:45 FoxyMayhem wrote: I put 3 1/2 hours in working on the new layout with JaK. He did another 1 1/2 on top of that. Several days to go, at least.
This is turning into a Blizzard "Soon"TM. Ha ha ha, I'm so sorry.
Seriously. If i wasn't doing the show every night I would be putting in 8 hours a day, but 5 is the best I can do right now
On May 19 2012 12:45 FoxyMayhem wrote: I put 3 1/2 hours in working on the new layout with JaK. He did another 1 1/2 on top of that. Several days to go, at least.
This is turning into a Blizzard "Soon"TM. Ha ha ha, I'm so sorry.
Finish it, first. <3
I don't mind if it takes forever as long as when you release it it's DONE.
On May 19 2012 12:45 FoxyMayhem wrote: I put 3 1/2 hours in working on the new layout with JaK. He did another 1 1/2 on top of that. Several days to go, at least.
This is turning into a Blizzard "Soon"TM. Ha ha ha, I'm so sorry.
Finish it, first. <3
I don't mind if it takes forever as long as when you release it it's DONE.
Of course they should release it after they have something going, but things like beta tests do exist, you know. Although they might be at a stage where releasing what they have so far might not be a good idea, releasing your work to the community can give lots of valuable input that can turn a simple project that they finished into something that is "DONE".
On May 19 2012 23:30 Antylamon wrote: Will the new hotkey setup use mouse side buttons? Because I don't exactly have a $50 gaming mouse laying around...
We will have versions with and without the 5th and 4th mouse buttons. (I don't have $50 lying around to go buy a new mouse either) :D
On May 19 2012 12:45 FoxyMayhem wrote: I put 3 1/2 hours in working on the new layout with JaK. He did another 1 1/2 on top of that. Several days to go, at least.
This is turning into a Blizzard "Soon"TM. Ha ha ha, I'm so sorry.
Finish it, first. <3
I don't mind if it takes forever as long as when you release it it's DONE.
Of course they should release it after they have something going, but things like beta tests do exist, you know. Although they might be at a stage where releasing what they have so far might not be a good idea, releasing your work to the community can give lots of valuable input that can turn a simple project that they finished into something that is "DONE".
We'll release a beta version that will be labeled as beta when we need the help of testers to fine tune what we have. Also nothing is set in stone, if we find a way to make it better, we will make it better.
A blog has been started that will be releasing the progress on the new layout. If you are interested, here's the link: http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/FoxyJaK
I recall Day9 back in his BW days on a podcast saying that it's better to be moving your hand around the keyboard for improved blood flow, to prevent carpal tunnel and other wrist problems. This layout looks like your hand is moving very little. For me I think the best compromise is to leave most of the unit hotkeys the same but have certain micro keys more accessible for when fast actions are needed (fungal growth for example). I can move around the keyboard plenty fast enough for macroing, but having split second faster micro is a worthwhile advantage to have.
Did he provide any data supporting that claim? I find it doubtful because, as far as I understand, players who use the fingertip grip do not have circulation issued, and yet they never move their arms. On the other hand, I might be completely off base.
On May 21 2012 08:05 Birdie wrote: I recall Day9 back in his BW days on a podcast saying that it's better to be moving your hand around the keyboard for improved blood flow, to prevent carpal tunnel and other wrist problems. This layout looks like your hand is moving very little. For me I think the best compromise is to leave most of the unit hotkeys the same but have certain micro keys more accessible for when fast actions are needed (fungal growth for example). I can move around the keyboard plenty fast enough for macroing, but having split second faster micro is a worthwhile advantage to have.
EDIT: Ninja'd That is a really interesting point, thanks very much for that. I'll be looking into that more deeply. Foxy is the more experienced ergonomics guy so he would have a much better response than me :D
If increased blood flow is a concern... You could always stretch your hands after each game, possibly even workout in the time that you aren't playing Starcraft. I hardly see that as I reason for continuing the use of an uncomfortable layout that contorts your wrists and creates unnecessary strain.
Im fysiotherapist so I know a little bit about ergonomics.
It is true if u move your hand a lot it increases your bloodflow, and actually if u keep the hand "mounted" on the desk all the time it blocks carpal tunnel where all those nerves and veins go through. Thats why they've developed that "scrolling mouse" thingy, so u dont have to rest your wrists on desk, which causes some pressure to carpal tunnel area.
IMHO, layout with less hand movement is better cause its efficient. And one can always take a break between games. This thing is double edged sword tbh, if u make your hand move a lot and u have to stretch your fingers uncomfortably it can cause RSI (repetitive strain injuries) which are pain in the ass too.
If u can keep your wrist off the desk and u dont have to stretch alot your fingers, thats the "best" ergo u can get with normal keyboard.
On May 21 2012 18:45 kORALIE wrote: Im fysiotherapist so I know a little bit about ergonomics.
It is true if u move your hand a lot it increases your bloodflow, and actually if u keep the hand "mounted" on the desk all the time it blocks carpal tunnel where all those nerves and veins go through. Thats why they've developed that "scrolling mouse" thingy, so u dont have to rest your wrists on desk, which causes some pressure to carpal tunnel area.
IMHO, layout with less hand movement is better cause its efficient. And one can always take a break between games. This thing is double edged sword tbh, if u make your hand move a lot and u have to stretch your fingers uncomfortably it can cause RSI (repetitive strain injuries) which are pain in the ass too.
If u can keep your wrist off the desk and u dont have to stretch alot your fingers, thats the "best" ergo u can get with normal keyboard.
Thanks so much man. That's really good information to have. Foxy and I have actually talked about this extensively. Any other nuggets of ergonomic wisdom you're holding back?
Regarding hand placement on desk that's pretty much it. I red your blog and saw u guys are doing something with tilted keyboard placement for this new layout.
It's awesome. My english is so bad so I cant really "analyze" how great that hand placement actually is when your keyboard is slightly tilted. All I can say its way more ergonomic than normal, and you guys should absolutely do it that way.
On May 21 2012 18:45 kORALIE wrote: Im fysiotherapist so I know a little bit about ergonomics.
It is true if u move your hand a lot it increases your bloodflow, and actually if u keep the hand "mounted" on the desk all the time it blocks carpal tunnel where all those nerves and veins go through. Thats why they've developed that "scrolling mouse" thingy, so u dont have to rest your wrists on desk, which causes some pressure to carpal tunnel area.
IMHO, layout with less hand movement is better cause its efficient. And one can always take a break between games. This thing is double edged sword tbh, if u make your hand move a lot and u have to stretch your fingers uncomfortably it can cause RSI (repetitive strain injuries) which are pain in the ass too.
If u can keep your wrist off the desk and u dont have to stretch alot your fingers, thats the "best" ergo u can get with normal keyboard.
If one plays with their feet up on their desk, with the keyboard in their lap and mouse on the desk with the mousehand wrist on or near the edge, is there any kind of hand / wrist problem associated with that ? Assume just normal typing type movements, no stretching or anything. Or would it be better with the keyboard on the desk, but sitting back with typing wrist a little forward from the edge ? Neither of these positions gives me any hand strain, but I don't play for extremely long chunks of time, but I was wondering what someone who actually knew about these types of things would think.
I think hand position is not your problem (feets dont belong on the desk) :- D
Well, I dont think there's any problem with your setup regarding hand position. There is always a risk involved when people are using mouse and keyboard long periods of time at once (like 5+ hours straight without any actual rest). Sure the desk gives SOME amount of pressure to the hypothenar / thenar area which can block the blood flow ( cold hands is the sign ). But if you dont have cold hands, you've used your "setup" long without any HAND problems I personally think its just fine.
Rest, stretch, and when you aint using mouse or keyboard for anything put your hands away from them.
And these are just my opinions.
<edit> If you have big hands and you are male, then I wouldnt care at all. But if you have extraordinary small hands, then you would want to place your hands on the desk rather than on the edge.
On May 22 2012 05:35 kORALIE wrote: Regarding hand placement on desk that's pretty much it. I red your blog and saw u guys are doing something with tilted keyboard placement for this new layout.
It's awesome. My english is so bad so I cant really "analyze" how great that hand placement actually is when your keyboard is slightly tilted. All I can say its way more ergonomic than normal, and you guys should absolutely do it that way.
I wish I could speak your language so I could talk to you in it, but I only know English I will work on more languages! :D
On May 23 2012 01:14 Gollomor wrote: OMG its so pretty awesome but so hard to learn
pls pls pls make an EU version on an EU - Keyboard cause i cant use it on the EU without change every second hotkey
That's a really good point. Hopefully we'll have time to get to that after all the US versions are done. Definitely going to keep this in mind man. Thanks :D
no problem I test it a lot on the EU server but at the and some hotkeys was so far away that i cant play good like this i am so excited to see the EU version of this pretty awesome keyboard hotkeys i was thinking a lot about my own hotkeys and how i can put the ramp hotkey from F1 near to my finger and this hotkey layout is just awesome on this way.
Keep on this way. It is very helpfull for me and for the community .
Did i miss something thats different for this layout between iso and ansi respectvely qwerty and qwertz or is it only the z/y? Changing y and z was fast, simply open the file, search for "=z" and at every hit u change the Z to a Y (upper case!).
On May 23 2012 08:22 IlK wrote: Did i miss something thats different for this layout between iso and ansi respectvely qwerty and qwertz or is it only the z/y? Changing y and z was fast, simply open the file, search for "=z" and at every hit u change the Z to a Y (upper case!).
I think its nothink different but if I want to change the hotkey from Z to Y he delete every other hotkey :-S and i have 20-30 unbound hotkeys no idea why. I think its a problem because us-server and eu-server thx a lot i test it soon
The zirkumflex is a difference, i tried around a bit today and well...if i enter "backslash" for it its working fine. So after adjusting that for center on selection (nice for the darkgrid injection method).
I didnt change keys ingame, i simply opened the layoutfile and changed every "=z" with "=y", thats 15seconds work on any reasonable text editor
For azerty players its gonna be a lot more work cuz e.g. w and z are both used so u have to delete all =w, give all =z->=w and then search for =_ and subsittute those with =z. Thats something a machine does better then a human, should be not that hard to code(thank god the keys are on the end of the line, thats easy to check:D if last char==x make last char w, that for any key and its done) but since after the new layout there wont be new and better layouts the use for that is limited, and i think frenchies could use a real keyboard instead of their strange one:D
-Alright Darkgrid players, we need your replays! Send them to me with your league (upload to a replay site, or something like google drive or microsoft skydrive). We'll be scanning them for statistics and comparing them to pros to help us design the new layouts. And we need a lot of them.
How should I send my replays? Should I just edit this post with some replay links, or PM them to you?
On May 21 2012 08:40 FoxyMayhem wrote: Did he provide any data supporting that claim? I find it doubtful because, as far as I understand, players who use the fingertip grip do not have circulation issued, and yet they never move their arms. On the other hand, I might be completely off base.
The fingertip grip rests your hand on the protruding bone, and as such doesn't block circulation at all. I generally can't easy use the same bone on my left hand on my keyboard, which is why having a still wrist blocking circulation makes sense. Of course stretching your hands and arms after games is important, regardless of position, but particularly if you're gaming for long periods of time I imagine it could be quite important, keeping your left hand circulating. I'll have to look into it more.
On May 21 2012 08:40 FoxyMayhem wrote: Did he provide any data supporting that claim? I find it doubtful because, as far as I understand, players who use the fingertip grip do not have circulation issued, and yet they never move their arms. On the other hand, I might be completely off base.
The fingertip grip rests your hand on the protruding bone, and as such doesn't block circulation at all. I generally can't easy use the same bone on my left hand on my keyboard, which is why having a still wrist blocking circulation makes sense. Of course stretching your hands and arms after games is important, regardless of position, but particularly if you're gaming for long periods of time I imagine it could be quite important, keeping your left hand circulating. I'll have to look into it more.
This is also how I hold my mouse, and I can confirm this. Even when I'm using this mouse pad, which has a gel wrist rest, my protruding bone is where I rest my wrist.
wow, this is so nice to hear guys! i used the "old" darkgrid layout, and i am so excited about the new layout you guys make. thank you for all the work and time you spend on creating such a layout for the community. i hope there also comes a layout for german keyboards.
TheCore, the new layout developed in conjunction with JaKaTaK (creator of another good layout), is now released in beta! This layout goes far beyond anything I've ever seen in layouts, and improves on DarkGrid in every way.
It may see changes as this is our first pulic beta. If you're okay with that, and want to take your control to the next level and reduce wrist strain, dive in!
On August 03 2012 05:02 darkachu wrote: i hope you continue updating this, as well as for HOTS. Thecore or whatever the name is just falls short compared to this layout imo.
agreed, the core is entirely too cramped and over-hyped.
Darkgrid has made me a better player and would love to see it continue evolving.
i'd say if you would rather stick to darkgrid, you don't really need foxy to keep updating it. the fundamentals are there, it won't be hard to continue making changes to darkgrid to make it the most comfortable for you.
On August 03 2012 08:03 eS_ToDo wrote: i'd say if you would rather stick to darkgrid, you don't really need foxy to keep updating it. the fundamentals are there, it won't be hard to continue making changes to darkgrid to make it the most comfortable for you.
well the most important thing to patch coming up would be for HOTS.
Great layout and I am excited to try it, but I think that it should be moved to the middle of the keyboard (index finger on L) where you can have 3 additional accessible keys for little finger (R,F,V), which would be great for standalone location hotkeys. Also ALT is much less awkward to press this way. And maybe even right WIN key and the key next to it can be used? Isn't this clearly superior?
TheCore does all things this layout does better (except one minor thing). It's faster, more ergonomic, more smooth. I strongly suggest trying it before settling for DarkGrid.
Alt is supposed to be pressed with your thumb in DarkGrid (TheCore does not contain this sometimes awkward reach). Shift is often the most pressed key an a game of SC2, making it a larger reach is more negative than positive, but an interesting thought. The win key cannot be used for SC2, if I recall correctly.
I really like the Darkgrid layout, but the Logitech keyboard that I use has the alt button much closer to the z key than I would like. I was wondering if there was a legal way to remap the alt key to the space bar (seeing as how I would change the space hotkey to something else.) I think that that would make going through camera location hotkeys much quicker and more efficient. Any help would be much appreciated.
i hope you update this! please! and if there is something you can add from the core, please do so. the core is too crowded. too effecient if you know what i mean.
On August 26 2012 21:58 phantastron wrote: darkgrid> thecore
i hope you update this! please! and if there is something you can add from the core, please do so. the core is too crowded. too effecient if you know what i mean.
It goes too out of its way to make things as efficient as possible, you mean?
There's always Chameleon if you're into keeping the home keys as ASDF. If I recall correctly, Jak said he would still update it even while working on theCore. Not sure if Foxy said anything about updating DarkGrid, but the answer appears to be unclear by the looks of this thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333891
I'm 99.999999% sure both Foxy and I will be updating our respective older and less efficient layouts for those who will not be making the switch. Although the focus will definitely be on TheCore as it is much faster and more competitive that either Darkgrid or Chameleon, dispite, or because of the fact, that it has a relatively steep learning curve that not everyone is willing to go through.
On August 27 2012 01:40 JaKaTaK wrote: I'm 99.999999% sure both Foxy and I will be updating our respective older and less efficient layouts for those who will not be making the switch. Although the focus will definitely be on TheCore as it is much faster and more competitive that either Darkgrid or Chameleon, dispite, or because of the fact, that it has a relatively steep learning curve that not everyone is willing to go through.
if you had to recommend a layout from darkgrid or charmeleon considering the things i have pointed out about thecore, what do you think is better?
On August 27 2012 01:40 JaKaTaK wrote: I'm 99.999999% sure both Foxy and I will be updating our respective older and less efficient layouts for those who will not be making the switch. Although the focus will definitely be on TheCore as it is much faster and more competitive that either Darkgrid or Chameleon, dispite, or because of the fact, that it has a relatively steep learning curve that not everyone is willing to go through.
if you had to recommend a layout from darkgrid or charmeleon considering the things i have pointed out about thecore, what do you think is better?
You pointed out nothing about theCore, actually. You just stated a... unique opinion.
This look better than the Core's having your hand on other side of keyboard, I didn't want to us it because u'd have to use 'weaker' fingers. Will try out soon!!!
Guys, if you are concerned about ergonomic, efficiency, or speed, TheCore is the way to go. It is so much better than the current version of DarkGrid.
There are 2 reasons to learn DarkGrid over TheCore: 1) You don't want to have to work as hard to adjust. TheCore is completely alien, at least this is a little bit more familiar? Fair enough. I personally think if you're going to relearn all your positioning anyway, might as well go the extra mile and get the HEAPS of benefits TheCore offers. You're not lazy, switching to DarkGrid takes a lot of work too, you're probably just afraid. Allow me to reassure you with sweet lulibies detailing TheCore's excellence....
2) You play on a laptop, you keyboard doesn't permit the core due to odd key placings, or your room is too small for you to slide the keyboard far enough to the left.
I'm serious. That's it.
TheCore: Fast, More Ergonomic, More Efficient, Not that scary.
Do it. I'm learning the core atm and it does take some work, but once you've got it down it kills. I am already beating people that are on my own level, and I still struggle hardcore with control groups. I feel the macro mechanics alone are much more efficient, which is why I am already at equal footing with ppl from my league (high dia). I can't even fathom how much better I will get once I've got it completely nailed down.
The only thing I take issue with with the core is the camera hotkeys. Using ctrl+shift+another key to use a camera and have alt+ key to create one seems odd. And it needs re-positioning of the hand to use them since ctrl and shift are at weird places on the keyboard.
I play terran but camera hotkeys have helped me immensly with mule dropping and building things. But maybe I should try it some more. What fingers do you use to hold ctrl and shift simultaniously? Is it the thumb and index?
And maybe I'll play around some more with tilting the keyboard. I'll look into it again.
On August 29 2012 00:55 JaKaTaK wrote: We're also looking at some alternate binds for non-zerg layouts. But it is absolutely necessary for efficient injects with zerg.
While we're on this topic, what kinds of alternate keybinds are you looking into? "It" isn't necessary for me since I decided to use backspace injects, so I might be able to transfer the changes to ZRM.
For the Hotkey practicing I loaded up some Arcade Maps where the command buttons are disabled for mouse clicks. This means you are forced to play only with Hotkeys. Simply search for Z23 to find these maps. Let me know each issues you may find.
You should be pressing Ctrl+Shift with your Thumb! That is probably why it has been difficult for you. It sounds weird, but it is very fast and ergonomic :D
On August 28 2012 19:49 FoxyMayhem wrote: Guys, if you are concerned about ergonomic, efficiency, or speed, TheCore is the way to go. It is so much better than the current version of DarkGrid.
There are 2 reasons to learn DarkGrid over TheCore: 1) You don't want to have to work as hard to adjust. TheCore is completely alien, at least this is a little bit more familiar? Fair enough. I personally think if you're going to relearn all your positioning anyway, might as well go the extra mile and get the HEAPS of benefits TheCore offers. You're not lazy, switching to DarkGrid takes a lot of work too, you're probably just afraid. Allow me to reassure you with sweet lulibies detailing TheCore's excellence....
2) You play on a laptop, you keyboard doesn't permit the core due to odd key placings, or your room is too small for you to slide the keyboard far enough to the left.
I'm serious. That's it.
TheCore: Fast, More Ergonomic, More Efficient, Not that scary.
foxy, is charmeleon better than darkgrid considering those 2 reasons?
Not the version I evaluated when JaK and I first started working together. But he may have updated it, layered cameras being the most key part. If so, then it's a possibility.
I think the home keys on Chameleon are also quite uncomfortable, no matter the version. You may not though, I have a fat hand.
That said, both are light years better than standard or grid. ^_^
@ Zulu23: Make sure to give info on that sweet map in TheCore thread.
I got used to Darkgrid now and I am absolutely fine with it! TheCore just annoyed mit having my left hand on the right side, which already is the wrong mindset and a reason for failure. (Thats why I went for DarkGrid) What did I get in bonus to my old setup? (Standard): 7 more CG'S 8 Cams More Speed Faster bulding of stuff This already shows how big the advantage of custom layouts are. I am not arguing about TheCore being worse, as it is not. But on the level I play (diamon/masters) those few seconds I win with TheCore won't matter anyway. I am just glad someone inveted hotkey layouts, be it you Foxy or you Jaka. THANKS I hope you guys go on doing such a nice job and Foxy you are upgrading DarkGrid with HotS!
hey guys i need help.. my problem is i cant play sc2 without darkgrid, im using it for a month now and i cant play without it. i need an update for hots im playing custom hots and it sucks with darkgrid and i cant use standard keys on it because i customize my keyboard for darkgrid layout to master it fast i popped out almost any keys from my keyboard and it seems that i lose those keys. now i need to play custom hots for advance preparation for hots beta and soon for commercial launch.
i really need help i dont have plans to test core or any different layout since for me darkgrid is the best and also it helps me refrain from my carpal syndrome.
please update darkgrid maybe not now but soon when hots beta come out.
I guess it gets the update when HotS is released, that at least would make more sense because then he/she has more time making it as efficient as possible and time for testing. In addition not everyone will be able to play the Beta.
On August 30 2012 23:05 Syntaxs wrote: Aww yhea baby <3 That's what I've been hoping for:D And please be fast with it, can't play after HotS gets released until Darkgrid is done.:/
I don't understand...? Just use the current one, it'll work just fine.
will you be able to update this with the knowledge and information you got from make and developing the core? im a darkgrid user myself and i would like it if it was the best it could be. e.g. (new hotkey positions, unit/ability keys etc...)
and also a suggestion, for zerg mouseless, i don't like how 3 is queen. the 3 can be changed to be more efficient in my opinion. for example, how about caps lock? that's what i prefer.
FoxyMayhem, is there any place where I can download a DG with the modifications Thatsoraven from the video mentioned? I'm interested in a mouseless terran layout with the attack on W instead of Q. I tried modifying the stock DG ingame but ran into some sort of conflict with the SCV key that when I tried to correct, created even more errors.
Current issue that needs to be resolved is that viper is "Y". Works but not ideal. Darkgrid only allows for 10 ability hotkeys in the grid, there are now 11 different units that can be made from a larva so I had to go off the grid. Everything else is working perfectly fine.
Swarm host burrow/unburrow uses default hotkeys (no place to set them?).
Create location 2 using ctrl-alt-w (ctrl-shift-w still works)
If anyone knows how to deal with the swarm host issues, let me know (or upload it fixed!). I think it is just due to a beta bug using the map editor. I would like a confirmation with a real beta.
Same goes for the base location two, should only be broken in the editor. If anyone knows how to make the editor play nice with the hotkeys as well, that would be appreciated. I know that ctrl-alt-w toggles the debug module, but I saw no hotkey setting for it and it doesn't pop up with a conflict. Starcraft II editor didn't have it in the "configure controls" there either but maybe that is the wrong place.
I'm in the decision process of switching over to DarkGrid. I have such a hard time getting myself to use the F-keys for cameras and as Protoss, I really need to start using one for my warp in pylon. Plus I love the idea of having so many more control groups.
I have mouse buttons which I currently use for Robo(4) and Stargate(5), but I use a finger tip grip and thus I've always felt like I was being inefficient using it because it always takes me a bit longer to press them than a key. So I'm not sure if I want to use mouse enhanced or mouseless.
The other thing I'm concerned about is the combined production. One of the things I usually like to do with having seperate production hotkeys is double clicking so I can easily chrono boost the production. Part of me wants to use combined production so I can have so many army hotkeys, but part of me is resistant for the reason I just stated.
What mechanism would you recommend for quickly getting to production facilities for easy chrono'ing?
I realize the issue can be a bit moot when you get to the stage of the game where gateways are spread out everywhere, but I do always try to keep my robos and stargates somewhat close by.
PS. I've considered TheCore, but after a lot of consideration I'm only open to trying out DarkGrid as it addresses all my concerns and I really don't want to move my hand from the left side.
Use the layered camera system. You can place most of your gates in easy view of one of your nexus, and for those that you can't, you still have a free camera to do so.
Doing 2key production is best for darkgrid. That means gates on one and robo/stargate on another. If you don't like that though, feel free to mix it up.
I have a question about the hotkeys for building stuff. For instance, when in a Gateway or a Robotics Facility or a Stargate, the keys used to build the different units. Is there a method to the madness? When I first tried it out, I was expecting since it was called DarkGrid that it would be Grid-like for building stuff, but for one of them it goes left to right Q E F I think but then for another it's totally different.
Did you make these decisions based on how often the unit is usually built and assigning it an appropriate key? Or how was the decision made? I'm just trying to understand the organization to help in the memorization process. For instance, it makes perfect sense that main ability are F and then E because your fingers are right there.
I will say though that for the practice games I have been doing, even though I'm playing slower because I don't know them all yet, once I did have something memorized, like Nexus->Chronoboost or Build->Assimilator, Build->CyberCore, etc, that once I learned it, I was quickly able to execute the command faster than standard hotkeys that I've been using for over a year.
This probably seems kind of weird because I decided to use mouse buttons, but as I stated in a previous post, I already use the mouse buttons for Robo/Stargate, so after hours of deliberation, I decided I would just keep those for the time being. Pretty much I'm just pushing off the decision of "do I want to use the mouse keys for things" and the decision of "do I want to do combined production". I'm feeling very conflicted on those decisions, so much to the point that it might prevent me from switching my hotkeys all together, so I'm pushing off the decisions to make sure I at least implement the important changes here. I called it Stage 1 because I'm leaving myself open to change things regarding mouse buttons and combined production in the future. My goal here is I want to use the other hotkeys and the camera hotkeys because I think those will affect my personal performance the most, but I left myself open so that in the future, if I decide to either use the mouse keys or use combined production, that is a simple change that shouldn't affect anything else.
Since we're limited to 10 keys, I removed colossus because they are the easiest to CRTL + Click since they are so big and always on top of everything but air units. I also removed Harass 2 for now because in my play style, I think this is the one that would be used the least. Harass 2 is the one I will bring back if I go for combined production in the future.
Hope you don't mind me using your keyboard layout graphics
Now that I've made the decisions, time to use the weekend to learn it.
You know what you guys should do? make a different layout who won't be able to follow specific changes such as changing the angle of key board or keys being pulled out. Like combine dark grid and chameleon and make a more efficient layout considering they are quite outdated after what you guys have learned making and developing the core. Thanks!
try queens on shift. to me this change is 200% more efficient For the non mouse keys zerg. Also try G for hatcheries. Faster than pressing space. This is all IMO of course. Consider it foxy!
I have some begginer questions: –how do You use efficent key G for whole army. I have some problem with this. The problem is with adding new stuff to them –i am not using mouse, so my medivacs go got Y. IT is something hard to take them easily on that Group specialy when new arrives. I select new shift+Y and attack on my army. IT takes so much time –same with tanks
How can i learn a goodbye practice with adding new units?
I have some begginer questions: –how do You use efficent key G for whole army. I have some problem with this. The problem is with adding new stuff to them Pinky on shift and index finger on G. This is basically how my hand is positioned all game, it's slightly sideways. –i am not using mouse, so my medivacs go got Y. IT is something hard to take them easily on that Group specialy when new arrives. I select new shift+Y and attack on my army. IT takes so much time I actuallly advocate adding medivacs to the same hotkey as your bio, but if you really dislike that I guess you could put then on 3 or 4 –same with tanks I put bio/medivacs on R, tanks on G, vikings on V and ghosts on space. It's all preference though.
How can i learn a goodbye practice with adding new units? I don't understand the question
On October 16 2012 22:44 Clarity_nl wrote: On October 16 2012 21:33 Mar_1910 wrote: Hello,
I have some begginer questions: –how do You use efficent key G for whole army. I have some problem with this. The problem is with adding new stuff to them Pinky on shift and index finger on G. This is basically how my hand is positioned all game, it's slightly sideways. OK so maybe i need more practice. Thx for Your example. It is still easier when You start with something that trying in every game. –i am not using mouse, so my medivacs go got Y. IT is something hard to take them easily on that Group specialy when new arrives. I select new shift+Y and attack on my army. IT takes so much time I actuallly advocate adding medivacs to the same hotkey as your bio, but if you really dislike that I guess you could put then on 3 or 4 During the switch to new layout I want to add new stuff. I know it is better to have medivacs seperate during micro. They will still heal my army –same with tanks I put bio/medivacs on R, tanks on G, vikings on V and ghosts on space. It's all preference though. Probably during learning I will be switching hotkeys, but I want to learn the layout from the first post. I dont want to change. I will try to force myself to learn. I watched the tutoral and interview with terran player and what i liked is playcing tanks on Spacebar.
How can i learn a good practice with adding new units? I don't understand the question Sorry last post was from my phone and he is correcting my words What I ment i have problems with adding new stuff to control groups. As I said when new unit pop ups I am draging it ad adding to control group. I have a lot of problems with medivacs, tanks, and Vikings becouse i dont have them on the same key as my main army. I want them to follow my army on G.
Just as a note, I've been using R for swarm hosts and 4 for vipers, seems to work ok. I bound the important viper spells to F and W so you can easily hit 4F and 4W.
With the new HotS patch, it seems alt+ability key doesn't work anymore, is this the game engine doing it or is there some hotkey I'm missing, I can no longer inject holding Shift+Alt and pressing E.
EDIT: Apparently holding alt also makes it so you cannot click on anything
Hey there, im realy confused at the moment. I downloaded Darkgrid but i thought there must be a specialized version for Protoss? In the picture it shows that mousekey 4+5 are used for controll groups, but in my downloaded version they arent set up? I did not dowload the mouseless version btw.
On November 18 2012 22:14 Cuclain wrote: Hey there, im realy confused at the moment. I downloaded Darkgrid but i thought there must be a specialized version for Protoss? In the picture it shows that mousekey 4+5 are used for controll groups, but in my downloaded version they arent set up? I did not dowload the mouseless version btw.
First of all, darkgrid is sort of discontinued, so it's sort of questionable to learn it right now (it's still a great system though).
As for your mouse buttons, it's perfectly fine. The controlgroups are bound to like.. "o" and "p" so you have to either use a thirdparty software to bind mouse4 and mouse5 to O and P, or change those hotkeys manually in SC2 to use mouse4 and mouse5 instead.
When I click the hots download link it just takes me to a blank white with lines that look like they should go in a file somewhere. Am I missing something, or am i supposed to copy/paste all the text from the url into a file?
After reading a bit, I thought it would be just interesting to post in what I use for my keys, as I edited it to suit me better. First, I kind of hated having most of my cams needing the alt key to be held down. It was really discouraging that I needed 2 buttons to get to one of my bases, I wound up using the minimap more. So, after playing some (potentially? Not sure) bootleged BroodWar on my flashdrive, I got a new respect for the F keys. I still wanted the important cameras easy to reach, but without using the alt key. Here is what I got. 123 F4 F3 | 456RTG (Space) (rest unused)
Unit Production 5 - 6 (6 for specialty stuff like a hatchery off to the side or proxies))
Fast Core Army + Basic Caster R (This would be for Marine Marauder Medivac, Stalker, Phoenix, Hellion Diamondback [OneGoal], Ling Infestor, Roach Hydra Infestor, etc) This key is the most centered key, and most used. That's why core army that require more attention are here.
Slow Core Army G (Tank Hellbat Thor, Zealot Immortal Collosus Sentry, Void Ray Carriers Tempest, Brood Lord Corruptor, etc) Its a bit harder to reach, but still pretty centered. I won't need to click on the key as much, so the slow guys that do there own thing go here.
Fast Harass + Utilities + Split Core T (Hellion squads, Widow Mines, Oracles, Phoenix, Vikings, Ghosts if no Vikings, Mutalisks, Burrowed roach or ling runby packs,) If I'm zerg, I mainly use this key for generic keeping my army in separate hotkeys. Helps dealing with harass and getting flanks. Especially if I'm playing with a ground army. T is also really easy to hit like R, but R is just a smidge closer.
OddBall SpellCaster Space (Ghosts when vikings are present, High Templar, Viper OR Infestors (not sure which is better for it yet), Mothership core.) I would rather just sick my MSC to follow a unit, since its long swooping turns make it annoying trying to control. Or Ill keep ut with my Slow Core. Hmm.
Other hotkeys not really used yet.
After seeing what others have, I'm considering moving my army up to 4,5,R,T and my macro on G,V,Space. While it might be better, My macro has always been on 4 and 5, even for Blizz keys. That might be a really tough transition. What do you guys think?
I've tried this out and it can see it's advantages, but this will definitely take some getting used to. It's very different from standard hotkeys (gold trying to get to plat)
the only reason I don't use it is cause I don't want to revamp all of my hotkeys even though it will be better for the future. All the muscle memory... gone... I just can't deal with that.
I am having a lot of trouble installing Darkgrid :\ ive checked every page in this post and nothing has helped. Does the hotkeys folder have to be put into a folder called 123456? when i put all the files there including hots update none of these hotkeys are showing up. please help and i apologize if this was a stupid question, just desperate to improve
On March 08 2013 04:18 Zootamus wrote: I am having a lot of trouble installing Darkgrid :\ ive checked every page in this post and nothing has helped. Does the hotkeys folder have to be put into a folder called 123456? when i put all the files there including hots update none of these hotkeys are showing up. please help and i apologize if this was a stupid question, just desperate to improve
If you go to My Documents -> Starcraft II -> Accounts. There should be a folder with a random number in there, it doesn't exactly have to be 123456 as it is unique for your account(i think). If you create a 'Hotkeys' folder within this numbered folder and put the hotkeyfiles inside the Hotkeys folder, you should be able to select them from the hotkey menu ingame in SC2.
Though it has a special place in my heart, I no longer directly support Darkgrid. The OneGoal Project is eating up ALL of my SC2 time, but that's actually a very good thing.
There's a version in the OP that worked with the beta, at the bottom of the post. If that doesn't work, and someone uploads a functional version, I'll add it to the OP -- just make sure to message me.
I'm sorry to hear that, your layout is still awesome.
I've updated my terran/protoss mouseless 1.3b version so that there are no more unbound hotkeys in HotS, so you can play the campaign with it. Obviously not everything will be optimal with the crazy campaign units (quite some things are on the right side of the keyboard) but at least everything has a hotkey and the stupid warning is gone. If interested: download here
I love Darkgrid very much, and I have used it from when I was gold until I was top 8 diamond (which sadly took like 6 seasons lol) but I am very used to it, and with HOTS, I have no idea what to bind Ignite Afterburner, Upgrade Vehicle and Ship Plating 1, Research Transformation Servos, and the key to build a Firebat from the factory
On March 13 2013 00:28 Hylirion wrote: I'm sorry to hear that, your layout is still awesome.
I've updated my terran/protoss mouseless 1.3b version so that there are no more unbound hotkeys in HotS, so you can play the campaign with it. Obviously not everything will be optimal with the crazy campaign units (quite some things are on the right side of the keyboard) but at least everything has a hotkey and the stupid warning is gone. If interested: download here
Thank you Hylirion, i still get some unbound key warnings on the mothership core. But this is really an improvement.
I fixed my old version for the release of HotS (my other variant only worked in beta). Since things changed so much, I simplified everything so it is easier to learn. Research facilities and casters all use f,e,d for their abilities from left to right.
On March 19 2013 09:57 Jo3M3tal wrote: I fixed my old version for the release of HotS (my other variant only worked in beta). Since things changed so much, I simplified everything so it is easier to learn. Research facilities and casters all use f,e,d for their abilities from left to right.
On March 19 2013 09:57 Jo3M3tal wrote: I fixed my old version for the release of HotS (my other variant only worked in beta). Since things changed so much, I simplified everything so it is easier to learn. Research facilities and casters all use f,e,d for their abilities from left to right.
You should probably pm a mod or something. Darkgrid is the best thing ever since I play on laptop, no core for me. And thank you Jo3M3tal for updating it to HotS.
Only problem I had with this was 83 unbound hotkeys when trying to play the campaing , too many to fix so I just updated them as I progressed through the game.
One thing I noticed though, is that the campaign gets buggy with the hotkeys. In some (and only some) of the missions, remapping abilites would do nothing, so kerrigan's abilites would overlap with q,w,e, etc.
On March 21 2013 06:51 JeosAdn wrote: You should probably pm a mod or something. Darkgrid is the best thing ever since I play on laptop, no core for me. And thank you Jo3M3tal for updating it to HotS.
Only problem I had with this was 83 unbound hotkeys when trying to play the campaing , too many to fix so I just updated them as I progressed through the game.
One thing I noticed though, is that the campaign gets buggy with the hotkeys. In some (and only some) of the missions, remapping abilites would do nothing, so kerrigan's abilites would overlap with q,w,e, etc.
Ya... I didn't want to go there. I am playing the campaign with the standard hotkeys so there wouldn't be weirdness. Feel free to post a hotkey setup made for the campaign though
I'm definitely going to give this a shot.... I have been using standard hotkeys since 2010 but I have always wanted to try a grid that will help me be quicker and have better control with base cams....
Is anyone working to update this for LotV? If not, I'll go ahead give it a try. What I don't have a clue about is how to handle the new "add to group while removing from previous group" modifier.
I bound the traditional create group command to alt only, and the create+remove to ctrl.
Another nice thing in this version of DarkGrid is that I resolved all the conflicts that happened with the campaign units. When a conflict occurred, I preserved the MP keybinding and moved the campaign-only keybinding to a different spot. I haven't gone through the campaigns recently, so this may be a bit buggy, but it's nice to be able to play with only one set of keybindings.
When lotv releases, I'll update this with the keybindings for that campaign too.
(Note: Loading this file in HotS will remove all the lotv-exclusive keybindings)
Hi I looked in this project in 2016 as I was fascinated by custom hotkeys setups. I was looking after nice tips I would have missed… I remember that the amount command positions with the group layout surround was not enough to cover for all Zerg unit (to produce out of larvae if I remember well… I'm not sure anymore)
I wander whether somebody keeps using an updated version of this .SC2Hotkeys project, it would be really cool
If nobody else answers, you may consider TheCore Lite, which I maintain since then, you can check my signature. I think you will find a set of features that cover most of Dark Grid advantages and more, with a different group/cam layout. It comes with a README document that explains the design choices: https://github.com/bobo38/TheCoreLite/blob/master/README.md
I started with this but I've customized it a lot to fit my style of playing.Here's link if there's anyone willing to try it out Darkgrid layout ala Revo Main changes that I've made to fit me are: 1) Switched A back to attack command because I play other games and it didn't feel natural playing other games with A as attack and Q in SC2. Also Q is now for patrolling, should make it easier to use for patrol splitting as terran. 2) I've most likely downloaded an outdated version because it had townhalls and supply providers as different hotkeys varying between races. It should be fixed now. 3) Banshee cloak and decloak back to C because it felt more natural and besides C was meant to be used as miscellanous ability and it just felt silly to have it rebinded elsewhere. 4) My version had ctrl group numbers messed up pretty badly so I set them to numerical order from 1 to 5 to actually match it on my keyboard so that when I bind ctrl group 1 also looks the same on screen.
I haven't done anything to create and steal hotkeys because I don't use but the pattern is visible how to create them if one would wish to use them. I personally find it hard to manage to 4+ camera hotkeys so 8th camera camerahotkey isn't to be taken seriously. Also if someone wishes to use rapid fire look it up since I haven't used it just in case so it's not setup poorly. I'll gladly clarify if some questions arise.
Most of the hardcore hotkey layout dudes I would temperated
There is some merit in maintaining some "hotkeydiversity"… all those old projects are all fascinating and it's a joy for me to read those guys that dig out those old thread