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Hey all, it's me again with another match up guide. The last one I can actually produce ( not because I don't have time anymore or something ) because I don't have any authority over the Tv* of Pv* match ups, I don't play them.
Link: http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvp-aiurs-armageddon
This one took me one week to write up ( sucked up most of my free time T_T 43 pages of stuff is quite tough to pump out quickly ) and another week to finish the styling and images. But still, it's here at long last and I can finally fully focus on school stuff again, but more importantly have time to play starcraft.
A quick excerpt out of it
Regular Four gateThis is the most common kind of Four gate rush there is. It is not as all in as the previous and with a reasonable damage done and a well timed expansion, the Protoss can transition out of it relatively well. Never the less, it does hurt his standard play because midgame tech like the blink, robotics facility or stargate are all delayed. This variation of the build has more than one gas geyser, but it has a few more probes. It doesn't save up as much Chronoboost as the Zealot Stalker 4 gate. The biggest call whether or not he will one base you is the expansion timing. If he isn't going for an expansion around the 6:30 to 6:45 mark, he will most likely go for a one base all in. Now this is the best place to train your gasematics. As I said earlier, one gas gives you 120 per ingame minute. Four gateways allow the Protoss to build waves of four units at a time, with different build times and gas costs. In our 12 gate-15 assimilator example where the Cybernetics core finishes around 3:41, we can make a little table of how much gas the Protoss has when the warp gate research finishes in terms of Chronoboost usage. If one Chronoboost is used, the Protoss will have mined for 2 and a half minutes which gives him 340 gas when the warp gate is finished. If he has made a Sentry during that time he will have 240 gas to his disposal and with a Stalker they will have 290. That means with their first wave of warp ins they can make all Stalkers. If two Chronoboosts are used, the Protoss will have roughly 320 gas to spend, so that gives the Protoss the same abilities warp in wise. They can warp in a Sentry earlier and still have enough for one huge wave of Stalkers at the start. At four Chronoboosts though, 280 gas is mined. Which means that at the first warp in can only be three Stalkers and a Zealot if he has gotten a Sentry beforehand. An extra Stalker will give the Protoss a regular full Stalker warp in. With a full round of Zealots warped in first, the Protoss saves the 300 gas for future warp ins, which means the Protoss can warp in two round of Stalkers behind eachother. Looking at the build times, the regular unchronoboosted Zealot builds in 28 ingame seconds. The Sentries and Stalkers have the same build time at 32. That way we can take every half minute as a benchmark for warp ins. If we notice a faster warp in we know he is chronoboosting, if we notice a slower warp in, we know he SUCKS at warp ins . The other big weakness to a Four gate rush is that the Protoss cannot sustain constant production from it if he does good warp ins, so the warp ins will continiue to be further apart and the reinforcements will weaken in numbers. Every 30 seconds, a one gas Protoss will mine 60 gas. So with every warp in they can only build Zealots and perhaps one Stalker. If he has two gasses up, he mines 120 gas with every 30 second. This means that if you notice two warp ins, both with two Stalkers or one Sentry warped in, you can safely say that he is on two gas. Stopping a Protoss Four gate attack is hard for a new Zerg, but it will get gradually easier when your injections get more well timed. You have some leaway of tech in this four gate because it doesn't come so quick nor is it so all in that the Protoss feels urged to attack right away. This way you can get out an evolution chamber and get the +1 Melee upgrade. It will not finish the second the attack starts, but over time you can delay the Protoss advancement and get your 20% stronger Zerglings up to crush the attack. You can also drone up to around 25 or 26. Now that we can calculate the amount of units and what kind of units he can warp in, we know what to expect from the Protoss. You know that the Protoss cannot warp in a full round of Stalkers unless he sucks at constant warping in. You know he cannot possibly warp in two Sentries in a later warp in on one base. So now we'll look at our defensive arsenal; Queens, Spine crawlers and Zerglings. As I said before, Spine crawlers take a lot of hits from a Zealot at 21. It takes 25 shots from a Stalker and Sentries really don't do any damage at 4 damage every ingame second. These guys can take a lot of shots, and not only that, they deal a lot of damage too. It kills a Sentry in 4 whacks and Stalkers and Zealots in 6. Queens also take a lot of beating so these two options give you a great defensive entrenchment. Zerglings are great for defense as they are fairly cheap and gateway units can't attack multiple targets at once. Double spawn larva on two hatcheries gives you an extra 16 larvae per one and a half minute. That means with ever 3 minutes you can make 64 Zerglings with just the Spawn larva abilities. The regular larva spawned from hatcheries give you 8 larva every minute with two hatcheries every ingame minute. That's another 16 lings. This huge surge of units makes Zerglings, Spine crawlers and Queens the best way to respond to a Four gate rush. If you make the Zerglings just before the first warp in of the Protoss, you can have an overwhelming force that can surround the warp ins. With these early Zerglings you should take the Xel'Naga towers and scout for hidden back doors with Zerglings for proxy pylons and probes. Taking out the probe or the pylon will delay the whole rush by a lot and give you a lot of time to get the Spine crawlers up. You should always have the Zerglings out on the map scouting for the reinforcement pylon to put pressure back onto the Protoss in a small way. Three Spine crawlers will stop the Protoss from advancing into your natural for a long long time, especially when a large body of Zerglings is on the map. This delay will give you the time needed to get the upgrade or roaches out. With good injections and macro, you will overwhelm him easily and delay his expansion with this large mass of Zerglings and thus win the game.
Let me know what you guys think
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Thanks for the correction!
And don't worry, I'm complaining about toss OP too. I just deal with it through other ways than whining ( well... I still whine rationally sometimes, just don't look my name up in any thread regarding ZvP balance >.> )
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Thank you sir! I've read, and loved, your ZvT and ZvZ guides and was hoping you'd make one for ZvP aswell. Now off to actually read it..
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even as a protoss player, this is awesome
great job!
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love these guides, thank you!
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Awesome man. Gonna read it through and find things that I can improve in my play. Most if it is very basic for Zerg but that is a good thing. I think everyone can benefit from reading this and hopefully a lot of will read this!
AWESOME job!
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Great work! That's one hell of a guide, the effort you've put in your guides is really impressive.
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Alright, I have gotten quite some flack from Protosses on reddit about my rather biased comments in the guide ( and on reddit ).
I sincerely apoligize to anyone that is offended by them ( which people clearly are according to the comments and downvotes ) and added a warning to the description of the post on my blog.
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On September 17 2011 01:24 Chaosvuistje wrote: Alright, I have gotten quite some flack from Protosses on reddit about my rather biased comments in the guide ( and on reddit ).
I sincerely apoligize to anyone that is offended by them ( which people clearly are according to the comments and downvotes ) and added a warning to the description of the post on my blog.
'rather biased' is the mother of understatements, but a nice read anyway.
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This is, in fact, just a balance whine which is ridiculous, as well as a horrible guide. You make tons of blanket statements about the protoss lategame being better overall (although give no concrete reasons as to why), and completely ignore Infestor/Broodlord until extremely, extremely late in the guide.
Crappy guide.
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On September 17 2011 01:42 Zarent wrote: This is, in fact, just a balance whine which is ridiculous, as well as a horrible guide. You make tons of blanket statements about the protoss lategame being better overall (although give no concrete reasons as to why), and completely ignore Infestor/Broodlord until extremely, extremely late in the guide.
Crappy guide.
Shut up
User was warned for this post
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On September 17 2011 01:42 Zarent wrote: This is, in fact, just a balance whine which is ridiculous, as well as a horrible guide. You make tons of blanket statements about the protoss lategame being better overall (although give no concrete reasons as to why), and completely ignore Infestor/Broodlord until extremely, extremely late in the guide.
Crappy guide. Wow wow wow there.
The only really balance whine part is the Dissecting protoss lategame part and I have supported that with the things I find too strong ( warpgate shotgun warp ins, Protoss AOE and Voidrays that kill both my tier 3 units ).
After that I have about 40 pages of content that show you how many hits it takes to kill certain units with upgrades, various styles and answers to things like fourgates and other one base styles.
Just because Infestor broodlord is in the lategame part of the guide doesn't mean it doesn't deserve any focus. There's even a table of content so you can get to the part you need to read quickly. Don't call my entire FREE write up crappy because you were blinded by the protoss comments in between.
I'll take any personal comments right to the face with pride, but nobody disses the amount of work I put into these things with all my heart for the community. I want you to know that that comment is the only one that has truly made me angry in a long long time, congratulations.
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I'm actually decently happy about that.
There's a distinct bias, and the fact that you completely disregard a -core- unit to your race is not only silly but downright bad advice for the majority of players. For example, in your section for 2 Base Colossus - Voidray, also known as the midgame Protoss deathball, AGAIN, you neglect to even mention the word infestor despite it being widely considered the usual response.
Additionally, you very rarely look at things that Protoss players can do and how to respond to them as Zerg besides the early game and cheesy bullshit. What to look out for and the differences between 6gate expands, 7gate blink +2 allins, Warp Prism harass, etc. - for a comprehensive guide, it's very helpful for a very small group of people, and otherwise misleads the readers because You, the author, can't get your biased play out of your head. Taking from your reddit comment, you say that you try to end the game around the midgame because you're afraid of the Protoss deathball - a style which is incredibly outdated at this point. Pushing would be 'students' to favor this flawed style is not a good service to the community.
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"If we read through all of this, we can essentially note that the Protoss as a whole is better in EVERY ASPECT in the lategame. Their 300 food push is better, their units are more cost-effective and they have more strong Area of Effect dealers than Zerg has. Basically, lategame Protoss is bullshit. Accept the reality and deal with it"
LOL did you even think before you wrote this? Protoss having a 300 food push. That would take at least 50 gateways, which is 7,500 minerals. Whereas Zerg doesn't need to spend resources on production facilities, just maintain injects. Protoss units aren't cost efficient at all. The only unit that is cost effective would be the blink stalker, but that is completely negated by infestors. Protoss units may be supply efficient, but Zerg definately beats Protoss in cost efficiency. I don't understand what makes you think the void ray is so good. Yes it beats pretty much everything in a 200/200 battle, but not anywhere near cost effectively. Not to mention how impractical it would be to literally get 200/200 void rays in a game. Protoss has more AOE users, but that's because the rest of our units have low DPS. Zerglings, ultras, broodlords, hydras, and infestors all do sick DPS
Also, quit refering to Protoss late game as a deathball. 12+ broodlords can destroy all the protoss ground, while infestors easily counter every protoss air unit. The only times I've seen a Protoss beat a non roach/hydra/corruptor Zerg in a 200/200 battle was when they Zerg engaged very poorly or had his broods way way way out of position and allowed them to get sniped.
Don't try to QQ in a writeup when current statistics and results clearly show Zerg superior to Protoss.
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People complaining about the Protoss comments probably haven't actually read the thing...
I might have offended you if you are reading this as Protoss, if you have, I sincerely apoligise. It was all in good fun and it was just to put a pat on the shoulders of all the Zerg players that have to cry out their tears before they can improve their game.
Edit: Also it was a really good read, thank you.
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wow. I just read though the whole thing, and I at least found it to be fantastic. As a platinum player, I'll try to take everything that was written into account when trying to polish my own gameplay.
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Awesome guide man, really really awesome!
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On September 17 2011 03:03 Sweeper8 wrote: "If we read through all of this, we can essentially note that the Protoss as a whole is better in EVERY ASPECT in the lategame. Their 300 food push is better, their units are more cost-effective and they have more strong Area of Effect dealers than Zerg has. Basically, lategame Protoss is bullshit. Accept the reality and deal with it"
LOL did you even think before you wrote this? Protoss having a 300 food push. That would take at least 50 gateways, which is 7,500 minerals. Whereas Zerg doesn't need to spend resources on production facilities, just maintain injects. Protoss units aren't cost efficient at all. The only unit that is cost effective would be the blink stalker, but that is completely negated by infestors. Protoss units may be supply efficient, but Zerg definately beats Protoss in cost efficiency. I don't understand what makes you think the void ray is so good. Yes it beats pretty much everything in a 200/200 battle, but not anywhere near cost effectively. Not to mention how impractical it would be to literally get 200/200 void rays in a game. Protoss has more AOE users, but that's because the rest of our units have low DPS. Zerglings, ultras, broodlords, hydras, and infestors all do sick DPS
Also, quit refering to Protoss late game as a deathball. 12+ broodlords can destroy all the protoss ground, while infestors easily counter every protoss air unit. The only times I've seen a Protoss beat a non roach/hydra/corruptor Zerg in a 200/200 battle was when they Zerg engaged very poorly or had his broods way way way out of position and allowed them to get sniped.
Don't try to QQ in a writeup when current statistics and results clearly show Zerg superior to Protoss.
Did you know templar actually roll infestors? feedback? very good ^_^. Also voidrays do very well vs broodlords as well. When its late game and toss is going colossi/templar/archon/voidray not easy to beat at all even with infestors. Tosses lategame army is way stronger then any of the other races there is no real disputing that.
Great guide op enjoyed the read ^_^
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Very very cool guide, 90% of it is amazing, but yeah the balance whine is annoying.
If we read through all of this, we can essentially note that the Protoss as a whole is better in EVERY ASPECT in the lategame. Their 300 food push is better, their units are more cost-effective and they have more strong Area of Effect dealers than Zerg has. Basically, lategame Protoss is bullshit. Accept the reality and deal with it. This part was just silly. BUT, overall, this is really useful and a fantastic guide for up and coming player.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
EDIT: Ooops, a sort of weird quote double post.
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Although I'm a great fan of pointing out protoss' silliness, it takes part of this guide a little too early and conspicuous.
However, since Blade approved the guide, I'm gonna read and enjoy it, many thanks!
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Nice guide, although I wished you talked more about dealing with 2 base all-ins, and how to recognize them (this is what I'm getting owned by atm).
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On September 17 2011 05:15 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 03:03 Sweeper8 wrote: "If we read through all of this, we can essentially note that the Protoss as a whole is better in EVERY ASPECT in the lategame. Their 300 food push is better, their units are more cost-effective and they have more strong Area of Effect dealers than Zerg has. Basically, lategame Protoss is bullshit. Accept the reality and deal with it"
LOL did you even think before you wrote this? Protoss having a 300 food push. That would take at least 50 gateways, which is 7,500 minerals. Whereas Zerg doesn't need to spend resources on production facilities, just maintain injects. Protoss units aren't cost efficient at all. The only unit that is cost effective would be the blink stalker, but that is completely negated by infestors. Protoss units may be supply efficient, but Zerg definately beats Protoss in cost efficiency. I don't understand what makes you think the void ray is so good. Yes it beats pretty much everything in a 200/200 battle, but not anywhere near cost effectively. Not to mention how impractical it would be to literally get 200/200 void rays in a game. Protoss has more AOE users, but that's because the rest of our units have low DPS. Zerglings, ultras, broodlords, hydras, and infestors all do sick DPS
Also, quit refering to Protoss late game as a deathball. 12+ broodlords can destroy all the protoss ground, while infestors easily counter every protoss air unit. The only times I've seen a Protoss beat a non roach/hydra/corruptor Zerg in a 200/200 battle was when they Zerg engaged very poorly or had his broods way way way out of position and allowed them to get sniped.
Don't try to QQ in a writeup when current statistics and results clearly show Zerg superior to Protoss. Did you know templar actually roll infestors? feedback? very good ^_^. Also voidrays do very well vs broodlords as well. When its late game and toss is going colossi/templar/archon/voidray not easy to beat at all even with infestors. Tosses lategame army is way stronger then any of the other races there is no real disputing that. Great guide op enjoyed the read ^_^
Blade has spoken! Quiet little ones and listen. :-)
Good job OP. I think your builds are fine, not thoroughly excited by most of it, but I think it is a thorough fair analysis. You could definitely add more to it and discuss the relative merits of the 3 big builds, Hatch first vs Economic Pool vs Early Pool with more attention to what they mean for the Protoss.
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Nvm, everything's listed under the blog, I'm dumb for not checking there.
Great guides IMO!
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don't have anything to add except thanks for your hard work.
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Very nicely done. I've always had the hardest time figuring the correct number of Drones I can get before I need to start spamming units.
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This is incredible. I excel at zvt (top plat anyways, closing in on diamond) and i'm above 50/50 in zvz but i'm terrible in zvp. My biggest problem is a complete inability of understanding how their race works - I'll be way ahead all game, and they make one push and wipe me clean. This guide does have a few holes (touches on things but doesn't elaborate) but it contains tons of little details that will improve my zvp immensely. Also loved the occasional humor, cracked me up.
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I lol'd at this pic.
Also, nice guide. But, I would argue for a few differences.
1. For the speedling expand build, you said that to only make two sets of lings if he tries to pylon block you. I disagree, and think you should always get 2 pairs. 1 Pair for XNTs, and the other pair for scouting his expo time/ tech
2. For the Roach/ling/infestor section, you forgot to mention how effective HT/Coli/Stalker is against it. Especially if he has more than four coli. Carpet storms are extremely effective against roaches and zerglings, and it is surprisingly difficult to stop your infestors from being feedback'd when you are spending all of your APM is devoted to focus firing down the coli and dropping down fungals and parasites.
3. You said that in the midgame both protoss and zerg are on two bases. This is largely wrong, because most zergs see midgame as being the phase between hatch tech and hive tech, from the time their lair pops until their hive tech buildings pop. You should have said that the zerg should be on three to the protoss two bases.
Besides that, it's a really nice guide. Thnx, looking forward to the ZvT and ZvZ versions.
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On September 19 2011 10:05 Conquerer67 wrote:I lol'd at this pic. Also, nice guide. But, I would argue for a few differences. 1. For the speedling expand build, you said that to only make two sets of lings if he tries to pylon block you. I disagree, and think you should always get 2 pairs. 1 Pair for XNTs, and the other pair for scouting his expo time/ tech 2. For the Roach/ling/infestor section, you forgot to mention how effective HT/Coli/Stalker is against it. Especially if he has more than four coli. Carpet storms are extremely effective against roaches and zerglings, and it is surprisingly difficult to stop your infestors from being feedback'd when you are spending all of your APM is devoted to focus firing down the coli and dropping down fungals and parasites. 3. You said that in the midgame both protoss and zerg are on two bases. This is largely wrong, because most zergs see midgame as being the phase between hatch tech and hive tech, from the time their lair pops until their hive tech buildings pop. You should have said that the zerg should be on three to the protoss two bases. Besides that, it's a really nice guide. Thnx, looking forward to the ZvT and ZvZ versions.
There already are ZvZ and ZvT guides... I really should make that blog button in the top navigation shouldnt I T_T http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvz-alpha-omega and http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvt-survival-of-patient
I will say that even I haven't thoroughly learned the midgame responses for all the different styles yet. It is a lot of games to play just to understand how each and every one holds up to a 5 gate push, a 6 gate push, a 6gate robo push, a collosus 5gate push, a blink +2 6gate push and a sentry warpprism blockade 6 gate push. That is why I deliberately left out the responses to each of these pushes , because if I said anything I would probably not be 100% correct about it.
I gave you all the different styles and when you can go each and every one ( like a mutalisk style after a delayed cybercore ). But I will leave winning the game to the readers, to respond correctly and build drones at the same time.
And yes, in a lot of cases a midgame zerg will have a 3rd rather quickly. But in the Roach/Banelingbomb/Ling style you are kept on a largely 2 base economy and having the third as a bait to lure the Protoss out like a mouse. And the Destiny Infestor ling style without contaminates does not take a third fast.
And on your HT/STalker/Collosus comment, isn't everything bad against that? Mutalisks will die to the storm, Infestors would die to feedback and Overlords would be stormed to be withered down. Collosi are good against anything on the ground anyway, I think that is a given. So I don't really see the point in telling what engagements will be really hard, you should be able to pick them out anyway.
Thanks for the reply
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The biggest call whether or not he will one base you is the expansion timing. If he isn't going for an expansion around the 6:30 to 6:45 mark, he will most likely go for a one base all in.
This timing is incorrect. If you rely on this to spot 4 gates, you would have a 0% win rate against 4 gate.
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On September 19 2011 16:14 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +The biggest call whether or not he will one base you is the expansion timing. If he isn't going for an expansion around the 6:30 to 6:45 mark, he will most likely go for a one base all in. This timing is incorrect. If you rely on this to spot 4 gates, you would have a 0% win rate against 4 gate.
I wonder why my winpercentage is roughly 90 % against 4 gates then. If I see no base after 6:45, I'll just make some Zerglings. If he doesn't expand I'll have some Zerglings out to start off with and if he does expand I have some lings to poke at his natural a bit, forcing some forcefields.
0% winrate is quite an exageration.
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could someone pls do this for toss?
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absolutely nice! Chaos I remember you warning us there wouln't be a z v p guide, cause you had to work....
but finally it comes!
Thanks, I am eager to read that
Macpo
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Another QQ guide for the most part... kinda sad. Oh well. At least it's not a 9pool guide like a lot of ZvP guides O_O. Also, ZOMGPROTOSSOP!!! <=== Haha I made a joke because thats all that was said in your 129324349834 page guide.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 20 2011 00:08 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 05:15 blade55555 wrote:On September 17 2011 03:03 Sweeper8 wrote: "If we read through all of this, we can essentially note that the Protoss as a whole is better in EVERY ASPECT in the lategame. Their 300 food push is better, their units are more cost-effective and they have more strong Area of Effect dealers than Zerg has. Basically, lategame Protoss is bullshit. Accept the reality and deal with it"
LOL did you even think before you wrote this? Protoss having a 300 food push. That would take at least 50 gateways, which is 7,500 minerals. Whereas Zerg doesn't need to spend resources on production facilities, just maintain injects. Protoss units aren't cost efficient at all. The only unit that is cost effective would be the blink stalker, but that is completely negated by infestors. Protoss units may be supply efficient, but Zerg definately beats Protoss in cost efficiency. I don't understand what makes you think the void ray is so good. Yes it beats pretty much everything in a 200/200 battle, but not anywhere near cost effectively. Not to mention how impractical it would be to literally get 200/200 void rays in a game. Protoss has more AOE users, but that's because the rest of our units have low DPS. Zerglings, ultras, broodlords, hydras, and infestors all do sick DPS
Also, quit refering to Protoss late game as a deathball. 12+ broodlords can destroy all the protoss ground, while infestors easily counter every protoss air unit. The only times I've seen a Protoss beat a non roach/hydra/corruptor Zerg in a 200/200 battle was when they Zerg engaged very poorly or had his broods way way way out of position and allowed them to get sniped.
Don't try to QQ in a writeup when current statistics and results clearly show Zerg superior to Protoss. Did you know templar actually roll infestors? feedback? very good ^_^. Also voidrays do very well vs broodlords as well. When its late game and toss is going colossi/templar/archon/voidray not easy to beat at all even with infestors. Tosses lategame army is way stronger then any of the other races there is no real disputing that. Great guide op enjoyed the read ^_^ Your "fact": Protoss have the "undisputed", strongest late-game army. Actual fact: Protoss can't seem to win anything at the moment. + Show Spoiler [GSL Spoiler!] +MC is in Code B now, for example. Something doesn't add up. This guide is just a massive balance whine, which is pretty freakin' ironic considering Protoss is doing the worst in pro-games at the moment. If Protoss is so strong, how come no one is doing any good with them? :S EDIT: A good guide doesn't reinforce the insecurities that players have built up in their minds. If I read a Protoss guide that reinforced my idea that Unit X is overpowered then that wouldn't help me, it would just make me feel even more disheartened every time I saw Unit X take to the field. What people need from a guide is to feel like they can beat certain compositions if they play it correctly, what they don't need is to feel like they have to be 10x better than their opponent to win - the latter reduces the number of opportunities people have to learn and it is a mindset a guide should seek to avoid reinforcing. (Now... If only I could look past the insecurities I have regarding my own race...)
Stop overexaggerating. It isn't just a massive balance whine. Zerg versus Protoss to me is still my hardest match up, so forgive me that I put some of my own personal thoughts in it. I could have made a clinical fact sheet too. People seem to dislike any negative emotion regarding X so I doubt I will do a major guide again regardless of the large positive feedback that I also get.
To me, knowing that I have to outplay my opponent will only make me play faster and focus more. I can see that some people will just be disheartened by the idea, but its just how I feel. Protoss might be doing bad in the GSL and the other high end tournaments, but the win-loss rates are fairly even on the ladder. We aren't all GSL players and everyone has problems with certain match ups. I feel that ZvT is favoured for Zerg right now, especially Ultralisk/Speedbaneling. I also noted this in my ZvT guide, but nobody whined about that 'balance whine'.
I'll be the first to say that I definitely need to improve my ZvP a lot, I need to improve my mechanics and my overall decision making. Still, people showed a lot of interrest to have a ZvP guide made by me much like the ZvZ and ZvT guides. That's why I made it, not to make a point about balance AT ALL.
I am collecting a large replay pack for ZvZ, ZvT and ZvP right now. And I'll say this to warn everyone about the dialogue that might be in those replays. Don't watch them if you don't expect some frustration in some of them.
Any point made about 'just a balance whine' will be ignored. I get it, you don't like my writing. Get on with your day and don't waste your time posting what tons of other people already have.
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On September 20 2011 00:08 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 05:15 blade55555 wrote:On September 17 2011 03:03 Sweeper8 wrote: "If we read through all of this, we can essentially note that the Protoss as a whole is better in EVERY ASPECT in the lategame. Their 300 food push is better, their units are more cost-effective and they have more strong Area of Effect dealers than Zerg has. Basically, lategame Protoss is bullshit. Accept the reality and deal with it"
LOL did you even think before you wrote this? Protoss having a 300 food push. That would take at least 50 gateways, which is 7,500 minerals. Whereas Zerg doesn't need to spend resources on production facilities, just maintain injects. Protoss units aren't cost efficient at all. The only unit that is cost effective would be the blink stalker, but that is completely negated by infestors. Protoss units may be supply efficient, but Zerg definately beats Protoss in cost efficiency. I don't understand what makes you think the void ray is so good. Yes it beats pretty much everything in a 200/200 battle, but not anywhere near cost effectively. Not to mention how impractical it would be to literally get 200/200 void rays in a game. Protoss has more AOE users, but that's because the rest of our units have low DPS. Zerglings, ultras, broodlords, hydras, and infestors all do sick DPS
Also, quit refering to Protoss late game as a deathball. 12+ broodlords can destroy all the protoss ground, while infestors easily counter every protoss air unit. The only times I've seen a Protoss beat a non roach/hydra/corruptor Zerg in a 200/200 battle was when they Zerg engaged very poorly or had his broods way way way out of position and allowed them to get sniped.
Don't try to QQ in a writeup when current statistics and results clearly show Zerg superior to Protoss. Did you know templar actually roll infestors? feedback? very good ^_^. Also voidrays do very well vs broodlords as well. When its late game and toss is going colossi/templar/archon/voidray not easy to beat at all even with infestors. Tosses lategame army is way stronger then any of the other races there is no real disputing that. Great guide op enjoyed the read ^_^ Your "fact": Protoss have the "undisputed", strongest late-game army. Actual fact: Protoss can't seem to win anything at the moment. + Show Spoiler [GSL Spoiler!] +MC is in Code B now, for example. Something doesn't add up. This guide is just a massive balance whine, which is pretty freakin' ironic considering Protoss is doing the worst in pro-games at the moment. If Protoss is so strong, how come no one is doing any good with them? :S EDIT: A good guide doesn't reinforce the insecurities that players have built up in their minds. If I read a Protoss guide that reinforced my idea that Unit X is overpowered then that wouldn't help me, it would just make me feel even more disheartened every time I saw Unit X take to the field. What people need from a guide is to feel like they can beat certain compositions if they play it correctly, what they don't need is to feel like they have to be 10x better than their opponent to win - the latter reduces the number of opportunities people have to learn and it is a mindset a guide should seek to avoid reinforcing. (Now... If only I could look past the insecurities I have regarding my own race...)
Bro, every human being is biased, why do you expect 100% unbiasedness in anyone's work? If you don't like it, don't whine about it.
To OP: Great great guide, it reminded me i can actually still make roach hydra against protoss!
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Amazing guide, thank you so much!
As a mere platinoob fool that has always had _serious_ issues with my ZvP, I really appreciate the thorough write up! For us lower level idiots who have the micromanagement abilities of a sausage fingered giant ZvP can be really hard, I appreciate that at higher levels of micro it seems that infestor ling can just roll over protoss but man.... I can never pull that shit off :D :D :D But yea, this guide really helps, makes me feel excited about the match up again!
No speed nydus is hilarious. I HAVE to try that out! :D In terms of cheese you did miss out the La Wzpinha build, ovie speed spine crawler push and hatch at foot of ramp spine crawler push but that's not taking anything away from the guide. It is _super_ thorough!
<3 you!
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Awesome write up. I don't understand why everyone has to bitch about the imba whine, it was my favorite part, because the conclusion was deal with it. Not some dumb buff us nerf them suggestion, just move on.(unfortunately some people can't)
I love trying new builds, my roach hydra mass upgrades w a few corrupters almost never fails, but its getting a lil old, the no speed fast nydus I now have a 5-1 record against ffe, always nice 2 know u can just end the game. I tried the ling, bling drop style and it was a fun, epic, and entertaining disaster. I never bling drop, soooooo idk Wtf I'm doing, but I got an awesome surround on him and ov's were way out of position, all lings died b4 any blings landed, then I laughed he countered and rolled my while I float way to many resources. But fun.
I look forward to trying and refining the various builds and compositions in this guide. Tks from a plat Zerg who needs all the help in the world.
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Omg I was waiting for this. I loved your ZvZ guide, haven't yet checked out your ZvT... Thanks so much :3
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Talking about the protoss lategame imbalance as an intro was probably a bad idea, because it distracted people from the really great analysis you do later in the guide. This guide is actually a beautiful thing. I'm a 1000pt master zerg player and I learned a lot from the basics
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On September 20 2011 03:40 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +Bro, every human being is biased, why do you expect 100% unbiasedness in anyone's work? If you don't like it, don't whine about it. It's not a review or an opinion piece, "bro", it's a guide. Bias doesn't help in a guide, as it causes readers to confuse the biased advice with the good advice. It's a pretty simple concept.
Then if you can understand such "simple" concept, why did you whine about something that is gonna hurt no one? Instead of commenting on the guide's accuracy and informations? To be honest the OP clearly stated that he is rather biased in this match up, and yet you just herped through OP and right went into anti-zerg mode? bro.
Of course theres not gonna be 100% unbiasness, this is internet, he does not write for a living, he writes for his passion and willingness to help others, your statement helps no one. It's a pretty simple concept. -_-
TL;DR: OP is trying to help, and unavoidably puts his personal thoughts into it, and yet you just say it is balance whine. He does not write for a living, he wants to help, and you are not helping.
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On September 20 2011 08:12 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:45 TolEranceNA wrote:On September 20 2011 03:40 Sated wrote:Bro, every human being is biased, why do you expect 100% unbiasedness in anyone's work? If you don't like it, don't whine about it. It's not a review or an opinion piece, "bro", it's a guide. Bias doesn't help in a guide, as it causes readers to confuse the biased advice with the good advice. It's a pretty simple concept. Then if you can understand such "simple" concept, why did you whine about something that is gonna hurt no one? Instead of commenting on the guide's accuracy and informations? To be honest the OP clearly stated that he is rather biased in this match up, and yet you just herped through OP and right went into anti-zerg mode? bro. Of course theres not gonna be 100% unbiasness, this is internet, he does not write for a living, he writes for his passion and willingness to help others, your statement helps no one. It's a pretty simple concept. -_- TL;DR: OP is trying to help, and unavoidably puts his personal thoughts into it, and yet you just say it is balance whine. He does not write for a living, he wants to help, and you are not helping. Because I'm commenting on how well-written the guide is, which it isn't. I thought that was pretty obvious. I guess you complain about video game reviews because the reviews don't help people have fun and the developers were just "trying to help" people have fun? Or something equally ridiculous...
Lol you are the one that is complaining about anything. And a guide has no form of similarity to a video game review. I pity you sir, appearntly you have no more well contructed arguement to counter me.
TL;DR: Saying something constructive, or don't say it at all.
Good day.
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On September 20 2011 22:39 TolEranceNA wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 20 2011 08:12 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:45 TolEranceNA wrote:On September 20 2011 03:40 Sated wrote:Bro, every human being is biased, why do you expect 100% unbiasedness in anyone's work? If you don't like it, don't whine about it. It's not a review or an opinion piece, "bro", it's a guide. Bias doesn't help in a guide, as it causes readers to confuse the biased advice with the good advice. It's a pretty simple concept. Then if you can understand such "simple" concept, why did you whine about something that is gonna hurt no one? Instead of commenting on the guide's accuracy and informations? To be honest the OP clearly stated that he is rather biased in this match up, and yet you just herped through OP and right went into anti-zerg mode? bro. Of course theres not gonna be 100% unbiasness, this is internet, he does not write for a living, he writes for his passion and willingness to help others, your statement helps no one. It's a pretty simple concept. -_- TL;DR: OP is trying to help, and unavoidably puts his personal thoughts into it, and yet you just say it is balance whine. He does not write for a living, he wants to help, and you are not helping. Because I'm commenting on how well-written the guide is, which it isn't. I thought that was pretty obvious. I guess you complain about video game reviews because the reviews don't help people have fun and the developers were just "trying to help" people have fun? Or something equally ridiculous... Lol you are the one that is complaining about anything. And a guide has no form of similarity to a video game review. I pity you sir, appearntly you have no more well contructed arguement to counter me. TL;DR: Saying something constructive, or don't say it at all. Good day. Pointing out the blatantly obvious flaw in your guide is not constructive criticism? Pretty good guide, but please take your head out of your ass and take the criticism. Your guide does display the strengths of the various protoss strategies very well but lacks in objective view to the matchup. Protoss strategy is "bullshit" and "better in every aspect", while zerg's equally if not moreso strong strategies are "coping with unfairness".
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On September 20 2011 22:45 Sated wrote: Both are examples of criticising a criticism using an incorrect basis. You're saying that I should talk about the accuracy of the guide when I'm purposefully criticising the style of writing used within the guide. You're telling me that I am wrong for not doing something that I didn't set out to do in the first place... which is essentially the same as criticising a game review for failing to help people have more fun with the game, when game reviews aren't designed for that purpose... hence why I used it as an example despite it being unrelated.
Also, why do you TL;DR a post with a handful of sentences? :S
On September 20 2011 23:43 Minastir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:39 TolEranceNA wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 20 2011 08:12 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:45 TolEranceNA wrote:On September 20 2011 03:40 Sated wrote:Bro, every human being is biased, why do you expect 100% unbiasedness in anyone's work? If you don't like it, don't whine about it. It's not a review or an opinion piece, "bro", it's a guide. Bias doesn't help in a guide, as it causes readers to confuse the biased advice with the good advice. It's a pretty simple concept. Then if you can understand such "simple" concept, why did you whine about something that is gonna hurt no one? Instead of commenting on the guide's accuracy and informations? To be honest the OP clearly stated that he is rather biased in this match up, and yet you just herped through OP and right went into anti-zerg mode? bro. Of course theres not gonna be 100% unbiasness, this is internet, he does not write for a living, he writes for his passion and willingness to help others, your statement helps no one. It's a pretty simple concept. -_- TL;DR: OP is trying to help, and unavoidably puts his personal thoughts into it, and yet you just say it is balance whine. He does not write for a living, he wants to help, and you are not helping. Because I'm commenting on how well-written the guide is, which it isn't. I thought that was pretty obvious. I guess you complain about video game reviews because the reviews don't help people have fun and the developers were just "trying to help" people have fun? Or something equally ridiculous... Lol you are the one that is complaining about anything. And a guide has no form of similarity to a video game review. I pity you sir, appearntly you have no more well contructed arguement to counter me. TL;DR: Saying something constructive, or don't say it at all. Good day. Pointing out the blatantly obvious flaw in your guide is not constructive criticism? Pretty good guide, but please take your head out of your ass and take the criticism. Your guide does display the strengths of the various protoss strategies very well but lacks in objective view to the matchup. Protoss strategy is "bullshit" and "better in every aspect", while zerg's equally if not moreso strong strategies are "coping with unfairness".
Lol i didn't write it, i am just trying to convince him that saying "This whole thing is a balance whine." is much less constructive than saying "Maybe take out some of your personal feelings in the MU in the guide." And trying to convince that him this dude is trying to help, and it is unavoidable to have some personal feelings mixed in it, when i never doubt his intention to help, his way of producing the criticism is not helpful to the guide or anyone.
I use TL:DR because alot of people dislike reading even the tiniest amount of text.
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Amazing guide, incredibly useful even for good players, very detailed, 5 stars! Very entertaining to read too.
The first part is useful too dispite what the critics say, because the first thing in ZvP is to get rid of that late game mentality a lot of zergs used to have, and understand that the longer the game goes, the closer your chances of winning get to 0%.
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On September 17 2011 03:03 Sweeper8 wrote: "If we read through all of this, we can essentially note that the Protoss as a whole is better in EVERY ASPECT in the lategame. Their 300 food push is better, their units are more cost-effective and they have more strong Area of Effect dealers than Zerg has. Basically, lategame Protoss is bullshit. Accept the reality and deal with it"
LOL did you even think before you wrote this? Protoss having a 300 food push. That would take at least 50 gateways, which is 7,500 minerals. Whereas Zerg doesn't need to spend resources on production facilities, just maintain injects. Protoss units aren't cost efficient at all. The only unit that is cost effective would be the blink stalker, but that is completely negated by infestors. Protoss units may be supply efficient, but Zerg definately beats Protoss in cost efficiency. I don't understand what makes you think the void ray is so good. Yes it beats pretty much everything in a 200/200 battle, but not anywhere near cost effectively. Not to mention how impractical it would be to literally get 200/200 void rays in a game. Protoss has more AOE users, but that's because the rest of our units have low DPS. Zerglings, ultras, broodlords, hydras, and infestors all do sick DPS
Also, quit refering to Protoss late game as a deathball. 12+ broodlords can destroy all the protoss ground, while infestors easily counter every protoss air unit. The only times I've seen a Protoss beat a non roach/hydra/corruptor Zerg in a 200/200 battle was when they Zerg engaged very poorly or had his broods way way way out of position and allowed them to get sniped.
Don't try to QQ in a writeup when current statistics and results clearly show Zerg superior to Protoss.
Your post is pretty wrong and OP's guide is quite good. Well done OP.
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