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1/10/12 (map + vs. cannon rush section) 3/18/12 added recent replays
Join me in fleeing the hapless [D] and [H] threads in the strategy section qqing about macro and why I shouldn't tell them to do it.
Intro [spoiler]Here, we have a build that gets WG faster than the FASTEST 12/16 4gate that can be used to punish every build's WG timing (other than a 3 stalker rush simply because you can't force good pylons against a good player if they CB'd their additional 2 stalkers unless you are quite sneaky). And surprisingly enough, it is economical enough to stay on pace once the rush is over.
FXOz used this build in the 3rd match against Sage in the code A ro4. Here is the link for those who have a pass this season:
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66335
The brilliance of this build unfortunately flew right over the heads of Wolf and moletrap and they scratched their heads and spoke of lollipops and other trifles as FXOz began warping units right into Sage's base though Sage was not playing particularly greedy. Thankfully for you, the godliness of this build was not wasted on me.
10 gate and 11 gate builds have pretty much fallen off recently as players began to react to them more appropriately, but this build falls right in the middle of "what the hell is this where is his 2nd pylon and why is his core halfway done already" of a 10gate and "oh ok that was a 12 gate I know what his timings can be."
Caveat: this is a VERY mechanically rigorous build. In order to get the WG timing you need to make your 11gate worthwhile, you need to put all your shit down ON TIME, mine efficiently enough and CB your core 5 times with no overlap nor waste due to completion. But if you don't have great mechanics, you can use this build and practice it very closely (I think I ran through it 30 times before I got the timings I wanted on everything in one single trial run), you will be a better player at the end of it. No joke; if you execute this build perfectly by the end of practice, you will actually have improved mechanically as a player.
[/spoiler]
Build [spoiler] I hereby dub this build The Tin Man (after oz, though idk the TRUE inventor of this build), The 11Probe Puncher, the 1zealot-4stalker-wtftiming, as well as The Tasteless Build
9 Pylon
11 Gateway (don't chronoboost until after you put the gate down and start your 12th probe; don't scout quite yet)
12 Chronoboost probes
14 Gas (15 Gas runs the risk of having just under 100 gas upon the completion of core)
14 Pylon (15 is fine as well)
15 Core, scout (if you scout earlier you won't be in a position to execute this at all)
16 Zealot
20 Stalker/WG research (CB WG until completion; you need 5 of these independently to hit our desired timing. This will come with practice. don't CB the stalker)
23 Gas (this prevents a gas steal if they take their 2nd gas after a 21 stalker which is the typical timing. This also feints a lack of press to some degree. Don't mine from this geyser until I say so!)
23 2 Gates, simultaneously
24 Pylon (in base)
24 Make a probe (Don't make a 2nd stalker)
25 2 proxy pylons (One at the bottom so that you can warp up and then mineral walk through whatever is on the ramp and make a 2nd one above the ramp. If your probe takes a zealot punch, pull it back and put a 2nd one on the low ground. It's feasible that he has a sentry out at this point, so if you get hit by a sentry on the way up or you see one come out, bring your zealot to the high ground. If he ffs behind it, put the 2nd one at the bottom of the ramp as well and target the sentry with your zealot (and stalker from the low ground if possible).
** Make another probe, or don't after the 2 pylons. You should have exactly 375 mins for the 1st warp-in if you made a probe but sometimes your mining wasn't as efficient that game so you can err on the safe side and cut this probe
** Make 3 stalkers. He can force you to warp on the low ground with good micro, but ideally you want these on the high ground. Resume probe production and you can even chronoboost probes as you wait for your next warp in
** Warp in 3 more zealots once WG cooldowns are back up. Constant probe production with a CB should NOT stop you from having 300 minerals when this happens. Once you warp these zealots in you can start mining from your 2nd geyser.
The aggressive warp-ins end here unless you judged for certain that you can kill your opponent or trade for probes cost effectively with additional warp-ins
Mental triggers for chronoboosts [spoiler]On January 16 2012 04:15 Jaeger wrote:
...
gateway -> start probe : chronoboost nexus core finished -> start warpgate : chronoboost core 23 probe -> 2nd gas : chronoboost core 23 2nd gate : chronoboost core -> 3rd gate 24 pylon : chronoboost core start low ground proxy pylon and mineral walk up ramp : chronoboost core -> 2nd proxy pylon [/spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Why it works [spoiler] With near perfect execution, you can hit the following timings with this build:
Cybernetics Core: 2:31 1st Warp-in (3 stalkers): 5:22 2nd Warp-in (3 zealots): 5:54
Compare these timings to the FASTEST POSSIBLE 12/16 4GATES 1gas:
Cybernetics Core: 2:39 1st Warp-in (4 stalkers): 5:34 2nd Warp-in (4 zealots): 6:07
2gas (fake 2nd gas, no cancel, no mining; gas is taken after 1st stalker queued)
Cybernetics Core: 2:39 1st Warp-in (4 stalkers): 5:35, 5:35, 5:37, 5:39 2nd Warp-in (4 zealots): 6:10, 6:10, 6:12, 6:20
I know that's a lot of numbers and I'm sorry for that. But this is what they mean: Against the fastest WG timing your opponent can muster off of a 12gate, your warp-ins come 12 seconds before his do. Put simply, he cannot warp-in offensively despite what pylons he got up by your base without forcing a base trade situation in which you are hitting his probes before he is hitting yours.
Use these 12 seconds to target down probes and pick off his units if he is actually trying to engage you. In the meantime, you have a 2nd gas up as well as more probes (even if you haven't killed any!).
If he in fact 4 gated and you have 12 seconds, I recommend only warping in the stalkers aggressively unless his WG is slow because of CB inefficiency. You can gauge this by seeing when his gateways begin to transform into warpgates; you have 11 seconds from when you hear that sound and when his units are actually fully warped in. Once his first warp-in is complete, you will have 4 stalkers and 1 zealot to his 6 stalkers and 1 zealot if he hasn't yet moved out and hasn't lost any units to your pressure. Get the hell out of there if all the stalkers are getting warped in. I advise warping the zealots into your own base at this point. If he is 4gating you and he is smart, he has a proxy pylon up somewhere by your natural and will most likely use his zealot warpin there. Your zealot warp in is faster than his, but he'll most likely get 4 up against your 3. Nothing huge to worry about as long as you warped in your zealots defensively.
Against some builds you straight up win after your first warp in. These builds include any kind of 1 gate robo, any fast expansion, or pretty much any build that gets less than 3 gateways before putting up a different tech structure.
In the case that you don't kill him, continue to make probes. You will have enough gas for 2 sentries after your zealot warp-in so counter-attacks after you retreat will fall flat. From here you can go up your tech tree of choice knowing you have a probe lead.
En re Geiko: Apparently, there's a 12/16 4gate that you can do that only cb's the nexus one time. The result is they get WG 7 seconds after you do with an 11gate, instead of 12. This does not worry me, however, because your earlier WG still forces them to warp in their stalkers defensively, which was the goal of the build to begin with. However, you are most likely not really going to be able to do a whole lot with 7 seconds. So if you happen to come across this (you'll be able to tell by how much cb they're saving.. if they have as much as you when their core is building, they only used 1 cb on probes), simply warp in your stalkers aggressively and then fall back while warping in your zealots defensively. In the meantime, you have your 2nd gas up and you have a probe lead! You can read his post and watch his replay here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=11740700[/spoiler]
How the build factors into these timings [spoiler]The goal of this build is to force aggressive warp-ins 12 seconds before your opponent can. Here are the points where we shave seconds off of our WG timing
We make the 1st gate earlier! We make it on 11 at 1:25 as opposed to on 12 at 1:33.
We designate our 2nd CB to our WG instead of our nexus. This combined with the 11 gate nets us one less probe once the 12-gating protoss has finished his 2nd chronoboost on probes. But fuck'em because these 2 small sacrifices net us at least 12 seconds of free punches to the face.
We sacrifice an early scout to get the core up on 15, but we have already committed ourselves to the 11 gate and there is no information you can gather with an earlier scout that would change what you are doing.
I want to stress this point again: You will not be able to get these precious 12 seconds unless you put everything up on time, scout on 15, mine decently efficiently, and put 5 separate CB's on WG before it finishes. Practice, practice, practice. [/spoiler]
A word on maps [spoiler]I don't recommend using this on maps that have significantly far away proxy locations that you really need to scout before 15 food to be safe. I also advise against using this on maps that have a secondary ramp at the natural, as your opponent can set up a defensive position there and you HAVE to go through one specific zone in order to get to the ramp. That being said...
Maps that are good for this:
Metal
you can scout your natural 3rd base and the gold in time with your 15th probe, and scout for cannons with good building placement and perhaps a small deviation from the natural scouting pattern by your nat just to be safe)
Xel'naga
You can spot cannon rush with your building placement. I prefer to scout my base for in base proxy on twelve then send the probe back to mine. Just scout your nat and behind the grass on 15 and take the farther path from your nat to the tower to scout for proxy gates there).
Shattered
You can scout your gold and through the tower for proxy gates on 15 safely. doesn't hurt to send your gateway probe to the edge to check for cannons, though no one has done this since piqliq was still playing..
Maps that are not as good for this:
Antigua
2ndary ramp, though you can still do it if you're very careful with your approach as you should get up the 2ndary ramp before a 2nd stalker is out vs 1 gate openings. Make sure you scout cross spawn first to check the tower and consider checking your 3rd as well, though this is very uncommon. Always spot for cannon rush with your initial pylon + gateway)
Entombed
See Antigua
Maps that are bad for this:
Shakuras Need to scout whole base + in between your nat and close spawn nat and your tower to check for proxy/cannon rush, and has a 2ndary ramp
TDA
No ramp so you can't hold a counter with ff's unless you over-invest in sentries, at which point your transition is late and therefore tremendously weaker)
**I'm not quite sure about arid. I don't play it so much. I'll give it a shot though.. no secondary ramp so that's good. 2 spawn locations which means proxies will be slightly more common. Ideal spots for the proxy would be in base or slightly beyond your nat. I'd scout for in-base on gateway then the nat on 15[/spoiler]
Soft counter: 3 stalker rush [spoiler]The three stalker rush can create for you problems I find quite interesting and unique. With a 15 scout, you will be able to scout the 2nd gateway before the first stalker is out on 2 player maps. However, on 4player maps, you won't be able to get this scouting information if you scout your opponent last.
Don't fret; your first proxy pylon begins at 4:45 at the base of their ramp, and their 2 additional stalkers are not out. They will be close to coming out if they CB'd them, and if they CB'd them, their WG is even further behind than in the 12/16 4gate situations I outlined above. In this case, force them to shoot at your zealot thus keeping fire off of your 2 pylons.
If you scout them last and thus can't get info into whether or not they are 3stalker rushing, I advise you not to try to force an above ramp pylon; put 2 on the lower ground just to be safe. If you scout the 3 stalker rush, put the 2 pylons on the lower ground, as well.
If your probe is late because he zoned you out with his initial units and you can't get the proxy pylon started by 4:50, you may want to abandon the attack altogether. You're only a probe most likely, and you already have a gas up that you can saturate.
Essentially, you commit yourself to some extent when you don't CB your first probe. Don't let 3 stalker rushes nor somewhat cryptic builds derail you from this yellow brick road 11probe smack down. You get better by committing to something and executing it perfectly, not sitting on top of your ramp pondering the spelling of "the lollipop guild"
Alternatively, you may steal the 2nd gas and play defensively with a sentry or 2 if they don't kill your gas. Just make sure they don't 2gate expo on you without you knowing about it.[/spoiler]
Cannon rush defense [spoiler]on metal you want to get the most vision possible with your pylon. with your gate you want to seal off the space between mins and the side of your base so the probe can't zip through for vision/building
[spoiler][/spoiler]
this is the tricky one: [spoiler][/spoiler]
this pylon sees the cannon rushes that kill you when you put your pylon farther to the left.
for the 9 oclock spawn, you will probably have to run your probe through there regardless just because there's so much area.
for antigua, you can wall the space between the geyser and the side of your base with a pylon in every position while getting good vision where the cannon rush would come from. however, many people will start the first pylon out of sight of even these pylons, so I recommend scouting with a probe anyway. [spoiler]
[/spoiler][/spoiler]
Replays [spoiler]As always, I'll first provide a skeleton replay of the build performed to the best of my ability. Check your own timings against the timings in this replay, or the timings I extracted from it above in the Why it works section. I think I got everything down quickly enough, but if you can do it faster please post the replay here.
Tinman
Here is the link to the GSL vod I mentioned earlier. You can check it out if you have a pass
oz vs sage; click 3rd set for game
here's some more replays (3/18/12)
http://drop.sc/135995 should have lost this one, really. the rush does not damage but a few favorable engagements get me the win
http://drop.sc/135996 rush nets me a 3 probe lead. he expands and we go for a 1 colo push sans range to end it
http://drop.sc/135997 proxy gate into base trade situation!
http://drop.sc/135998 opponent goes 2nd gas then 2nd + 3rd gate on 25 food. just kills
http://drop.sc/125841 vs aggressive 4gate. faster wg timing helps me kill it with a defensive warp-in
http://drop.sc/125735 vs risky/shoddy 2gate stargate build. just kills
Here are 2 replays of defending 2 gate proxies using this build:
[spoiler]This one is on antigua. Always place your first pylon to scout for cannon rush, of course. But also always scout through the middle first or you'll lose to this kind of thing immediately.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16031
This one is on xel'naga. I've been able to use the 11g build by using my gateway or 2nd pylon or 1st gas probe to scout for in base proxies as well as checking the nat and behind the smoke before returning it to mine before actually scouting on 15.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16030[/spoiler]
text book tin man. at the end of the rush i'm up 7 probes. from here on its ezpz if you don't fuck up too bad
alejP v ninjaP
clean kill vs a greedy 3 gate build
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16309
here's a pretty interesting one. it's against a double proxy after a 1 gas opening.. i guess 2 wolf gates? thankfully this build gets out wg so fast that you can hold off these pre-wg busts without sentries.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16310
against a semi-safe 3 gate. i probably would have got 6-7 probes, but he just gives up once the warp in is over
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16311
against 3 stalker rush. time suggested this earlier in the thread-- steal their gas and get a sentry or 2; prepare for 4 gate if they ignore your gas while keeping some kind of scout for a 2g expo
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16312
vs a greedy 3 stalker rush that went into 2 sentries
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16313
clean kill vs delayed 4gate
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16315
opened 11gate, but had to deviate once i saw a very fast 3 stalker rush and that i couldn't take his gas.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16316
Here is a vod with 2 games in it with the build. go to 11 mins and 58 mins of part 2
http://www.twitch.tv/alej691/b/299074003
I will upload more soon now that I have actually practiced the build haha[/spoiler]
Until next time [spoiler]If you plan on using this build, I recommend you practice it a lot against the AI. I know it took me a long time to get all the timings and sequencing down correctly. And it only "works" once you have achieved that end. By "work" I mean you actually get your warp-in 12 seconds before a cutthroat 4gate and can force defensive cool downs and/or a probe-pull.
I hope you all study this build as hard as I did and continue working on your mechanics. I'll keep this thread updated as need be.
Thanks for reading! -aLeJ[/spoiler]
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Wow, nice write-up. I remember that game.
Thanks for another excellent contribution =)
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Wow that's insane. Wow. Amazing guide 10/10.
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Looks interesting, will try
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Sexy. Time to stop proxy 2 gating every pvp :D
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I have been doing something very similar to this, except I pull two probes, which has let me always get a pylon on high ground.
It's more a hit-and-miss though, as I bait with zealot-stalker-probe to lure his 3 stalkers out enough for my 2nd probe to sneak in.
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Dammit my keyboard is messy... reading this made me cum.
Going to use this on KR ladder after I practice on NA! TYTYTY<3
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I scribbled this down from when HerO did it a while back, I forget who he played, might have been on his stream. Solid build.
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Added additional follow-up vs 4gate--
I included that you shouldn't use the three zealot warp-in offensively, but I should have added that you need to warp them into your base in case he warps in his zealots at a proxy pylon near your base; you don't have time to scout for proxy pylons once your stalker is out and you want that stalker in his face asap to get your pylons up in time
edit: to reiterate, you force the 1st warpin to be used defensively, but you CANT force the 2nd warp-in defensively because at that point he has 6s1z to your 4s1z and you can't just sit there and wait for your next set of warpins and win that fight by attrition while he's killin all your probes
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Hey Alej, I'm not at home right now so I can't check the timings, but I've experimented a lot with 11 gate and I've found that you don't actually gain that much time compared to a 12 gate 4gate. Doesn't this build get countered by a hard version of the 12 gate 4gate with 5 CB on WG (hits at 5:32 finished warpins) ?
Edit : Asking this in regards to the timings you stated which I'm not sure if they are finished warpin or start to warp in.
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On October 09 2011 20:04 Geiko wrote: Hey Alej, I'm not at home right now so I can't check the timings, but I've experimented a lot with 11 gate and I've found that you don't actually gain that much time compared to a 12 gate 4gate. Doesn't this build get countered by a hard version of the 12 gate 4gate with 5 CB on WG (hits at 5:32 finished warpins) ?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a hard version of 4gate as the one that I used as an example was as fast as I could get it with a 12 gate- 2 cb on probes and no cb on stalker with a 16 core.. dono how you'd get faster than that. Cutting the 2nd cb on probes might shave a little bit off but I think that you'd have less money for your warp ins down the road. If you find anything that contradicts that let me know!
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Great guide, tried it on the ladder right now, was a bit worried about getting cheesed because of the late scout and of course got cannon rushed.
But indeed this is a hardcounter to it lol, first stalker is out way to early for a cannonrush to work, great build...
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On October 09 2011 20:07 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 20:04 Geiko wrote: Hey Alej, I'm not at home right now so I can't check the timings, but I've experimented a lot with 11 gate and I've found that you don't actually gain that much time compared to a 12 gate 4gate. Doesn't this build get countered by a hard version of the 12 gate 4gate with 5 CB on WG (hits at 5:32 finished warpins) ? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a hard version of 4gate as the one that I used as an example was as fast as I could get it with a 12 gate- 2 cb on probes and no cb on stalker with a 16 core.. dono how you'd get faster than that. Cutting the 2nd cb on probes might shave a little bit off but I think that you'd have less money for your warp ins down the road. If you find anything that contradicts that let me know!
Yes but you actually save 7 seconds compared to a standard 4 gate if you cut the 2nd chronoboost on the probes and put it on your cyber core instead. Fastest I've managed is units started warping in at 5:26 with this kind of 4 gate. And enough money for the first 2 rounds of warpin. With an 11 gate like yours, I've tried reaching this kind of timing, but the best I could manage was like 4 or 5 seconds earlier and delaying a lot of econ. But Once again I'm just very curious about this build and don't want to comment on it before trying it out so I'll wait until tomorrow to give you good feedback
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That was beuatiful, honestly everything lined up exactly as you described... made me grin thanks for a new build
Edit: I just played a few games vs a similar level toss 1200 points masters here are the replays if anyone wants to have a look (obv not perfectly executed) Game 1 Game 2
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On October 09 2011 20:12 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 20:07 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 09 2011 20:04 Geiko wrote: Hey Alej, I'm not at home right now so I can't check the timings, but I've experimented a lot with 11 gate and I've found that you don't actually gain that much time compared to a 12 gate 4gate. Doesn't this build get countered by a hard version of the 12 gate 4gate with 5 CB on WG (hits at 5:32 finished warpins) ? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a hard version of 4gate as the one that I used as an example was as fast as I could get it with a 12 gate- 2 cb on probes and no cb on stalker with a 16 core.. dono how you'd get faster than that. Cutting the 2nd cb on probes might shave a little bit off but I think that you'd have less money for your warp ins down the road. If you find anything that contradicts that let me know! Yes but you actually save 7 seconds compared to a standard 4 gate if you cut the 2nd chronoboost on the probes and put it on your cyber core instead. Fastest I've managed is units started warping in at 5:26 with this kind of 4 gate. With an 11 gate like yours, I've tried reaching this kind of timing, but the best I could manage was like 4 or 5 seconds earlier and delaying a lot of econ. But Once again I'm just very curious about this build and don't want to comment on it before trying it out so I'll wait until tomorrow to give you good feedback
I don't know if I've ever played against a 1cb on probe 4gate. You almost cap on nex energy with the 11 gate with 1 cb on probes so I'd think you'd cap just as your core is finishing or a little before? Yeah I guess wait till you can do a dry run through it and put the replay here! thanks!
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Do you think you could get some more replays of this up?
It looks kinda solid but I would personally be interested in seeing the micro side of things once you warp in the 3 stalkers. Because really, against a cookie cutter 4 gate you have about 10 seconds to do damage before you're in a bit of trouble if both of you have nailed everything perfectly. Also you are likely to be down a stalker against their zeal + 2 stalk or 3 stalkers which seems pretty iffy to me.
Basically I want to see replays of how this pans out vs a standard 4gate, the replays you posted weren't great examples as you said
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On October 09 2011 20:15 LtLolburger wrote:Do you think you could get some more replays of this up? It looks kinda solid but I would personally be interested in seeing the micro side of things once you warp in the 3 stalkers. Because really, against a cookie cutter 4 gate you have about 10 seconds to do damage before you're in a bit of trouble if both of you have nailed everything perfectly. Also you are likely to be down a stalker against their zeal + 2 stalk or 3 stalkers which seems pretty iffy to me. Basically I want to see replays of how this pans out vs a standard 4gate, the replays you posted weren't great examples as you said the 2nd stalker doesn't come out in time if they started it after their additional gates to do much. You'll have both pylons started by then and they can't take both of them down in time. I've seen players pull probes to take the pylons down but you still come out ahead if you had the pylon on the low ground as well.
Yeah I'll be putting up more replays this week after exam on mon
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o.o I've been using this exact same build for almost a year now lol. Really good build when people don't know how to react properly to it. It gets soft countered though by a standard 4 gate, and I know that you talk about how to deal with 4 gate in your guide but if you play perfectly you still end up a little behind, and if you mess up just a little (i.e. lose the 1z1s battle, or mistime a chrono or two by a few seconds, etc. ) it's auto loss for you.
I still think it's a great build but I've definitely stopped using it as much because people aren't overreacting to seeing my fast warpgate, and I just end up not really being able to do much damage with the 1z4s attack and end up economically behind.
This build is one of my favorite builds against weaker players though since it's really easy to force mistakes (or just get a huge advantage if opponent has no clue how to react), plus the early 11 gate helps you react/defend better to early cheeses if not scouted immediately.
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I loved when Oz used that build!
I run into a lot of peeps on ladder who loves to go 12 gate, cut zealot, steal my gas and get their own gas and also start mining from it, regardless of my opening. They make up for the delayed WG this causes by having sentries at their ramp to prevent 4gates while they do some greedy 1 gate robo variation.
In this build the pylons get placed when there's only one sentry in those kinds of builds (4:55 smtn) and your opponent HAS to forcefield to not have a pylon in his base and die. While the forcefield protects him a second sentry will pop with it's own forcefield but that wear off around the time your WG finishes. And it's pretty clear how 4 stalkers+zeal does against 1 stalker and 2 sentries .
a note: in Oz v sage Oz cancels his 24th probe and immediately remakes it again to "fake" non aggression, as sage otherwise would've been able to see that he cuts probes to get the gates up faster, I found that kinda cute I dont know if it's worth the hassle in a non GSL-environment though, this build seems to work well for you even without optimal excution...
A question as well: I think Oz used this build because sage seemed reluctant to get a zealot before stalker.
In game 1, Sage HAD to get a zealot because Oz went with a chrono'd zeal before core so not much to say there, but he skipped it in game 2, and skipped it in game 3 as well (and even though Oz didn't know this he might have known sage's tendencies, and judged that he was likely gonna cut it out). Is it possible to get the 2 offesive pylons down by your opponents if they have both a zealot and stalker to zone your probe away with.
Do you think that you can get your proxy pylons set up close enough to make advantage of your earlier WG timing if your opponent gets a zealot+stalker and uses it to zone out your probe? Even though your opponent does this in the 3rd replay it doesn't seem like he even tries to look for standard proxies.
nice write up
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On October 09 2011 20:32 Anihc wrote: o.o I've been using this exact same build for almost a year now lol. Really good build when people don't know how to react properly to it. It gets soft countered though by a standard 4 gate, and I know that you talk about how to deal with 4 gate in your guide but if you play perfectly you still end up a little behind, and if you mess up just a little (i.e. lose the 1z1s battle, or mistime a chrono or two by a few seconds, etc. ) it's auto loss for you.
I still think it's a great build but I've definitely stopped using it as much because people aren't overreacting to seeing my fast warpgate, and I just end up not really being able to do much damage with the 1z4s attack and end up economically behind.
This build is one of my favorite builds against weaker players though since it's really easy to force mistakes (or just get a huge advantage if opponent has no clue how to react), plus the early 11 gate helps you react/defend better to early cheeses if not scouted immediately. I'd like to see some of the reps where it maybe didn't go so well if you wouldn't mind putting them up or just pming me with links!
I haven't seen 10/11 gates in forever I didn't know people had been doing them all along.. maybe just not in tournaments I've watched (which is kind of a lot O_O) or on streams I don't watch
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I know you mention that this "hard counters a cannon rush" but could you go through some more details for me as to why it does? timings etc...
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On October 09 2011 20:39 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 20:32 Anihc wrote: o.o I've been using this exact same build for almost a year now lol. Really good build when people don't know how to react properly to it. It gets soft countered though by a standard 4 gate, and I know that you talk about how to deal with 4 gate in your guide but if you play perfectly you still end up a little behind, and if you mess up just a little (i.e. lose the 1z1s battle, or mistime a chrono or two by a few seconds, etc. ) it's auto loss for you.
I still think it's a great build but I've definitely stopped using it as much because people aren't overreacting to seeing my fast warpgate, and I just end up not really being able to do much damage with the 1z4s attack and end up economically behind.
This build is one of my favorite builds against weaker players though since it's really easy to force mistakes (or just get a huge advantage if opponent has no clue how to react), plus the early 11 gate helps you react/defend better to early cheeses if not scouted immediately. I'd like to see some of the reps where it maybe didn't go so well if you wouldn't mind putting them up or just pming me with links! I haven't seen 10/11 gates in forever I didn't know people had been doing them all along.. maybe just not in tournaments I've watched (which is kind of a lot O_O) or on streams I don't watch
I never see anyone else do 10/11 gates either, my point wasn't that "oh this is an old build that's been around forever" but more like "oh I know exactly how good this build is and it's cool to see other people use it" :p
I don't have any replays on hand (because like I said, I've stopped using it against good opponents), but I'll do it some more in the next few days and add replays.
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Wow you are the best Protoss Strategy writer on TL. Always full of in depth analysis and important details. I will be trying my hands out on this build!!
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This thread delivers. I am aroused!
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Interesting build. Definately have to try this out on ladder.
I recommend only warping in the stalkers aggressively unless his WG is slow because of CB inefficiency.
Is this a typo? I think it meant to say zealots.
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Awsome guide, I've faced this on ladder and the earlier warpin made me to pull probes, meanwhile he was teching up at home.
Can you please add the information about when to start mining gas again in the bo? You stated about not starting to mine gas yet, but you didn't explicitly state when you should start mining again. Thanks.
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So I finally have access to SC ! I checked out your replays but none of them are actually perfect as you said so it's hard to compare. (btw you might want to fix your GSL link, it shows MMA vs asd).
In fact in most of them, you get your 11 gate just 1 second earlier than a good 12 gate so from there on, you can't really compare builds. here's my version of a 12 gate 4 gate with 5 CBs. I finish the warp in at 5:33 but i screw up some timings. My record is 5:31.
My analysis is that, it isn't really worth it to sacrifice 1 gate and a unit for only 5 seconds additional time (because if we execute the builds perfectly, this is exactly how much more time you have). In fact, what you gain from getting an 11 gate is almost exactly what you gain form microing your workers. I would advise everyone to work on their execution (worker pairing, split, and placing buildings at exact timings) before thinking of winning seconds with an 11 gate. I've seen GMs place their first pylon at 50 secs, and get their 12 gate at 1:37 which is kinda huge when you know the optimal times (best possible) are 44 secs and 1:30...
To be fair though, I think the difference would be a lot bigger on maps with only 2 close patches. On maps like XNC with 4 close patches, 11 gating doesn't really bring much in terms of gate timing (5 secs at most), but on other maps, I think you can get it down 7 or 8 seconds before a 12 gate.
Edit : Oh btw, everyone should check out my split in this replay that i do for 4 close patch maps. It's the easiest way to pair up all of your workers from the very beginning. I average 46 pylons and 1:31 gates with this split with minimal probe micro.
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Anyone else unable to open some of the replays? I'm getting timeouts for the skeleton build, and for the games that aren't against a cannon rush.
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On October 10 2011 00:49 Geiko wrote:So I finally have access to SC ! I checked out your replays but none of them are actually perfect as you said so it's hard to compare. (btw you might want to fix your GSL link, it shows MMA vs asd). In fact in most of them, you get your 11 gate just 1 second earlier than a good 12 gate so from there on, you can't really compare builds. here's my version of a 12 gate 4 gate with 5 CBs. I finish the warp in at 5:33 but i screw up some timings. My record is 5:31. My analysis is that, it isn't really worth it to sacrifice 1 gate and a unit for only 5 seconds additional time (because if we execute the builds perfectly, this is exactly how much more time you have). In fact, what you gain from getting an 11 gate is almost exactly what you gain form microing your workers. I would advise everyone to work on their execution (worker pairing, split, and placing buildings at exact timings) before thinking of winning seconds with an 11 gate. I've seen GMs place their first pylon at 50 secs, and get their 12 gate at 1:37 which is kinda huge when you know the optimal times (best possible) are 44 secs and 1:30... To be fair though, I think the difference would be a lot bigger on maps with only 2 close patches. On maps like XNC with 4 close patches, 11 gating doesn't really bring much in terms of gate timing (5 secs at most), but on other maps, I think you can get it down 7 or 8 seconds before a 12 gate. Edit : Oh btw, everyone should check out my split in this replay that i do for 4 close patch maps. It's the easiest way to pair up all of your workers from the very beginning. I average 46 pylons and 1:31 gates with this split with minimal probe micro.
Holy pokes i thought 48 and 133 were optimal.... and i usually hit 49 and 135.... and i thought i was doing so well.... thanks a lot geiko ...
....play this game for a year straight and still can't get the first pylon down on time -_-
OT: I've been doing a 12 g/16cyber version of this for a month or so.... its really powerful.... will def check out this version. The way I've been playing it I get a 2nd stalker, but i saw Oz Opted for 2 probes.... could someone smarter than me explain this decision? Isn't 1z5s way better than 1z4s? Or is it that 1z5s still loses to 4 gate 1z6s so the probes are a better choice?
Great guide thanks!
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Fantastic build, looks cool. Is this worth doing on Tal'Darim? I get the feeling that the opponent 4-gating will be able to counter-push with an already-placed proxy pylon as soon as he defends (although losing some probes) and we just die with our 3 gates?
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Actually have run into this on the ladder recently whilst doing the 3 stalker rush-- I believe I pulled like 8-10 probes when he placed the first proxy pylons in addition to my one stalker followed up quickly by 2 more--
If you're not going for a fast warpgate you actually should spend all of your chrono on your unit production. You're not going to get a faster warpgate so you just need enough units to hold off the push.
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Oz also used this vs JYP on antiga [vod set2]
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I knew I wasn't crazy when I thought that OZ did something weird those games. Nevertheless, Alej delivers the goods, once again. Will definitely try it out.
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On October 10 2011 00:49 Geiko wrote:So I finally have access to SC ! I checked out your replays but none of them are actually perfect as you said so it's hard to compare. (btw you might want to fix your GSL link, it shows MMA vs asd). In fact in most of them, you get your 11 gate just 1 second earlier than a good 12 gate so from there on, you can't really compare builds. here's my version of a 12 gate 4 gate with 5 CBs. I finish the warp in at 5:33 but i screw up some timings. My record is 5:31. My analysis is that, it isn't really worth it to sacrifice 1 gate and a unit for only 5 seconds additional time (because if we execute the builds perfectly, this is exactly how much more time you have). In fact, what you gain from getting an 11 gate is almost exactly what you gain form microing your workers. I would advise everyone to work on their execution (worker pairing, split, and placing buildings at exact timings) before thinking of winning seconds with an 11 gate. I've seen GMs place their first pylon at 50 secs, and get their 12 gate at 1:37 which is kinda huge when you know the optimal times (best possible) are 44 secs and 1:30... To be fair though, I think the difference would be a lot bigger on maps with only 2 close patches. On maps like XNC with 4 close patches, 11 gating doesn't really bring much in terms of gate timing (5 secs at most), but on other maps, I think you can get it down 7 or 8 seconds before a 12 gate. Edit : Oh btw, everyone should check out my split in this replay that i do for 4 close patch maps. It's the easiest way to pair up all of your workers from the very beginning. I average 46 pylons and 1:31 gates with this split with minimal probe micro.
Hmm these results actually don't bother me too much. We'll have our 2nd gas up safely and we still force a defensive warp in of stalkers, but will have to retreat thereafter.
The 11 gate falls a probe behind a 12 gate with 2 cb on nex; I would assume the 12 gate with 1 cb is still a little bit ahead of the 11 gate, but not by as much.
If I faced a 12/16 with 1 cb using the 11gate, I'd probably be upset that I lose the zealot by default while retreating but I wouldn't fear a counter attack as you get your 2 sentries up with time to spare after your defensive zealot warp-in.
I appreciate you supplying the replay! Was very interesting as I haven't seen a 1 cb nexus 4gate before, and your timings were very sharp.
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On October 09 2011 21:29 Fairwell wrote: Awsome guide, I've faced this on ladder and the earlier warpin made me to pull probes, meanwhile he was teching up at home.
Can you please add the information about when to start mining gas again in the bo? You stated about not starting to mine gas yet, but you didn't explicitly state when you should start mining again. Thanks. Start mining gas after you warp in the 3 zealots. If you start mining gas before then, you won't have 300 mins when the cool downs are up while still cb'ing out probes.
In the case that you retreat after the stalker warp-ins, I suppose you could put probes on the 2nd gas a bit sooner as you don't need to warp in zealots defensively as quick as you would need to aggressively.. if that makes any sense O_O
edit: added a note in the why it works section to reflect geiko's findings
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Great guide!
I really like this build, and I've tried it a few times myself. It's a very safe way to punish opponents who are greedy with something like 2 gate stargate or 1 gate robo while still being able to get your 2nd gas fairly early yourself. I also think it's perfectly safe against 4 gate, especially now that they can't get up your ramp against forcefields.
Against 3 stalker rush I think the best response is just to steal their 2nd gas and grab yours early, using the gas advantage rather than trying to pressure, though.
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On October 10 2011 08:20 iSTime wrote: Great guide!
I really like this build, and I've tried it a few times myself. It's a very safe way to punish opponents who are greedy with something like 2 gate stargate or 1 gate robo while still being able to get your 2nd gas fairly early yourself. I also think it's perfectly safe against 4 gate, especially now that they can't get up your ramp against forcefields.
Against 3 stalker rush I think the best response is just to steal their 2nd gas and grab yours early, using the gas advantage rather than trying to pressure, though.
I like this idea thanks for mentioning that. I am still not sold on how much damage or whether or not you can do real damage with this against 3 stalker rush reliably especially as people start recognizing 11 gate and respond by cb'ing the stalkers instead of WG to try to deny pylons in conjunction with probe pulling
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Good read, \0/
Really like the build.
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Update: forgot to add that you put probes on 2nd geyser after zealot warp-in. my bad
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Nice guide, Alej. Always fun to think of interesting builds to try out in PvP.
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Thanks for writing a guide on this. I started using it as soon as I saw oz do it. The funny thing is I was trying to develop this build for so long and couldn't make the money work. I never thought to just skip the 3rd gateway unit
On October 09 2011 20:32 Anihc wrote: o.o I've been using this exact same build for almost a year now lol. Really good build when people don't know how to react properly to it. It gets soft countered though by a standard 4 gate, and I know that you talk about how to deal with 4 gate in your guide but if you play perfectly you still end up a little behind, and if you mess up just a little (i.e. lose the 1z1s battle, or mistime a chrono or two by a few seconds, etc. ) it's auto loss for you.
I still think it's a great build but I've definitely stopped using it as much because people aren't overreacting to seeing my fast warpgate, and I just end up not really being able to do much damage with the 1z4s attack and end up economically behind.
This build is one of my favorite builds against weaker players though since it's really easy to force mistakes (or just get a huge advantage if opponent has no clue how to react), plus the early 11 gate helps you react/defend better to early cheeses if not scouted immediately.
But now with the patch you can do some potential damage, get out and make sentries because you know the 4 gate is coming and you are ahead in workers. Honestly 4 gate doesn't concern me that much.
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On October 10 2011 12:10 Stipulation wrote:Thanks for writing a guide on this. I started using it as soon as I saw oz do it. The funny thing is I was trying to develop this build for so long and couldn't make the money work. I never thought to just skip the 3rd gateway unit Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 20:32 Anihc wrote: o.o I've been using this exact same build for almost a year now lol. Really good build when people don't know how to react properly to it. It gets soft countered though by a standard 4 gate, and I know that you talk about how to deal with 4 gate in your guide but if you play perfectly you still end up a little behind, and if you mess up just a little (i.e. lose the 1z1s battle, or mistime a chrono or two by a few seconds, etc. ) it's auto loss for you.
I still think it's a great build but I've definitely stopped using it as much because people aren't overreacting to seeing my fast warpgate, and I just end up not really being able to do much damage with the 1z4s attack and end up economically behind.
This build is one of my favorite builds against weaker players though since it's really easy to force mistakes (or just get a huge advantage if opponent has no clue how to react), plus the early 11 gate helps you react/defend better to early cheeses if not scouted immediately. But now with the patch you can do some potential damage, get out and make sentries because you know the 4 gate is coming and you are ahead in workers. Honestly 4 gate doesn't concern me that much. Haha yes that was actually a huge revelation I had when watching the vod.. I kept waiting for the 2nd stalker.. and then probes started coming out! Good thing the production tab exists or we'd never be able to figure this shit out haha.
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On October 10 2011 00:49 Geiko wrote: My analysis is that, it isn't really worth it to sacrifice 1 gate and a unit for only 5 seconds additional time (because if we execute the builds perfectly, this is exactly how much more time you have). In fact, what you gain from getting an 11 gate is almost exactly what you gain form microing your workers. I would advise everyone to work on their execution (worker pairing, split, and placing buildings at exact timings) before thinking of winning seconds with an 11 gate. I've seen GMs place their first pylon at 50 secs, and get their 12 gate at 1:37 which is kinda huge when you know the optimal times (best possible) are 44 secs and 1:30...
The reason I like it is you are committing so much less than that 4 gate does. You can make them warp in ~3 sentries while you smile and tech at home cause you have lots of probes and a second gas.
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I am incredibly impressed with this build, thank you for sharing it with me. It might actually replace the build I've worked so hard on to perfect in PvP.
However, I am not convinced that you'll beat a 10 Gate Robo straight up, have you tested it against a 10 Gate Robo?
At the time when you would be warping in your first 3 Stalkers, I'd have a Sentry, Stalker and Zealot at the top of my ramp. As long as I hit the first FF, I think I would hold, since I'd have the gas to warp in a second sentry almost immediately if need be (and an Immortal would be building). By the time you'd be warping in the Zealots, I'd have that second sentry, an Immortal and second Zealot would follow soon after. It would be interesting to test.
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On October 10 2011 13:48 BronzeKnee wrote: I am incredibly impressed with this build, thank you for sharing it with me. It might actually replace the build I've worked so hard on to perfect in PvP.
However, I am not convinced that you'll beat a 10 Gate Robo straight up, have you tested it against a 10 Gate Robo?
At the time when you would be warping in your first 3 Stalkers, I'd have a Sentry, Stalker and Zealot at the top of y ramp. As long as I hit the first FF, I think I would hold, since I'd have the gas to warp in a second sentry almost immediately if need be (and an Immortal would be building). By the time you'd be warping in the Zealots, I'd have that second sentry, an Immortal and second Zealot would follow soon after. It would be interesting to test. Can you post a replay of you running this build vs AI? I'd like to see wg timing/robo timing/how many gates are done at wg timing/ # of probes/ timing or presence of 2nd gas that kind of thing really curious to see thanks!!
edit: or just provide an indepth BO that I could run for the sake of holding all else constant?
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I'm a noob - no doubt about it, but I'm learning slowly.
I registered just to say this build is laying waste to every protoss I've played on gold ladder. I even beat a master league in a custom game with it today. Also works decently against terran.
Thks for the write up.
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I have a couple questions, and your insight would be greatly appreciated.
With such late scouting, what is the proper response to a proxy 2gate? 3 zealots at your ramp with 2 more on the way when your stalker has just finished building seems like a huge challenge. Do you just roll the dice and think to yourself "I hope he's not proxy 2gating me"?
Also, with just a zealot and stalker, wouldn't a seasoned PvP player easily deny your probe from even reaching the ramp? Either by zoning with his zealot stalker, or having good control and focus firing the probe?
It feels risky, but I suppose your build can live with that.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On October 11 2011 01:22 freemoney wrote:
With such late scouting, what is the proper response to a proxy 2gate? 3 zealots at your ramp with 2 more on the way when your stalker has just finished building seems like a huge challenge. Do you just roll the dice and think to yourself "I hope he's not proxy 2gating me"?
I'd like this answered too. As far as I know, putting a core down instead of a 2nd gate is pretty much auto-lose vs proxy 2 gate. And you have no way of knowing because you're not scouting.
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On October 11 2011 01:42 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 01:22 freemoney wrote:
With such late scouting, what is the proper response to a proxy 2gate? 3 zealots at your ramp with 2 more on the way when your stalker has just finished building seems like a huge challenge. Do you just roll the dice and think to yourself "I hope he's not proxy 2gating me"?
I'd like this answered too. As far as I know, putting a core down instead of a 2nd gate is pretty much auto-lose vs proxy 2 gate. And you have no way of knowing because you're not scouting.
I've encountered proxy gates 3 times using this build and I beat them all. Stalker micro needs to be good tho. Chrono the gateway when you see the zealots coming. Fight with some probes and pull them back when they're dying. I made a proxy pylon to their base and ended the games with first warp-in.
I'm loving this build. Getting really good results atm @ 1400 master level.
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On October 10 2011 13:53 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 13:48 BronzeKnee wrote: I am incredibly impressed with this build, thank you for sharing it with me. It might actually replace the build I've worked so hard on to perfect in PvP.
However, I am not convinced that you'll beat a 10 Gate Robo straight up, have you tested it against a 10 Gate Robo?
At the time when you would be warping in your first 3 Stalkers, I'd have a Sentry, Stalker and Zealot at the top of y ramp. As long as I hit the first FF, I think I would hold, since I'd have the gas to warp in a second sentry almost immediately if need be (and an Immortal would be building). By the time you'd be warping in the Zealots, I'd have that second sentry, an Immortal and second Zealot would follow soon after. It would be interesting to test. Can you post a replay of you running this build vs AI? I'd like to see wg timing/robo timing/how many gates are done at wg timing/ # of probes/ timing or presence of 2nd gas that kind of thing really curious to see thanks!! edit: or just provide an indepth BO that I could run for the sake of holding all else constant?
I assume he means this? I'm not aware of any others.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=238165
timings: + Show Spoiler +0:51 finish 9th probe 1:11 finish 10th probe 1:16 gateway 1:24 start 11th probe 1:37 gas (finsh 2:07) 2:22 core 2:31 15 probe finish 5:22 warpgate tech finish 5:42 immortal finish
I'm pretty sure it loses to this 11gate fast warpgate build. I remember testing against 11gate 4gate and the 11gater brought 2 probes making it impossible to reliably stop the high ground pylon and first warp-in.
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On October 11 2011 08:11 Nostrada wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 01:42 marvellosity wrote:On October 11 2011 01:22 freemoney wrote:
With such late scouting, what is the proper response to a proxy 2gate? 3 zealots at your ramp with 2 more on the way when your stalker has just finished building seems like a huge challenge. Do you just roll the dice and think to yourself "I hope he's not proxy 2gating me"?
I'd like this answered too. As far as I know, putting a core down instead of a 2nd gate is pretty much auto-lose vs proxy 2 gate. And you have no way of knowing because you're not scouting. I've encountered proxy gates 3 times using this build and I beat them all. Stalker micro needs to be good tho. Chrono the gateway when you see the zealots coming. Fight with some probes and pull them back when they're dying. I made a proxy pylon to their base and ended the games with first warp-in. I'm loving this build. Getting really good results atm @ 1400 master level.
I don't see how the stalker micro has any bearing can't he just kill all your probes while you're microing your stalker? Replays would help.
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On October 11 2011 08:34 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 08:11 Nostrada wrote:On October 11 2011 01:42 marvellosity wrote:On October 11 2011 01:22 freemoney wrote:
With such late scouting, what is the proper response to a proxy 2gate? 3 zealots at your ramp with 2 more on the way when your stalker has just finished building seems like a huge challenge. Do you just roll the dice and think to yourself "I hope he's not proxy 2gating me"?
I'd like this answered too. As far as I know, putting a core down instead of a 2nd gate is pretty much auto-lose vs proxy 2 gate. And you have no way of knowing because you're not scouting. I've encountered proxy gates 3 times using this build and I beat them all. Stalker micro needs to be good tho. Chrono the gateway when you see the zealots coming. Fight with some probes and pull them back when they're dying. I made a proxy pylon to their base and ended the games with first warp-in. I'm loving this build. Getting really good results atm @ 1400 master level. I don't see how the stalker micro has any bearing can't he just kill all your probes while you're microing your stalker? Replays would help.
Here's an example proxy gate game: http://replayfu.com/download/27c5b07ba1717be3badce72a2f692673
I didn't remember to scout the proxy location in that game. He even unpowered my gateway when he killed a pylon. With a little bit of probe micro losses are avoidable.
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On October 11 2011 09:21 Nostrada wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 08:34 Jaeger wrote:On October 11 2011 08:11 Nostrada wrote:On October 11 2011 01:42 marvellosity wrote:On October 11 2011 01:22 freemoney wrote:
With such late scouting, what is the proper response to a proxy 2gate? 3 zealots at your ramp with 2 more on the way when your stalker has just finished building seems like a huge challenge. Do you just roll the dice and think to yourself "I hope he's not proxy 2gating me"?
I'd like this answered too. As far as I know, putting a core down instead of a 2nd gate is pretty much auto-lose vs proxy 2 gate. And you have no way of knowing because you're not scouting. I've encountered proxy gates 3 times using this build and I beat them all. Stalker micro needs to be good tho. Chrono the gateway when you see the zealots coming. Fight with some probes and pull them back when they're dying. I made a proxy pylon to their base and ended the games with first warp-in. I'm loving this build. Getting really good results atm @ 1400 master level. I don't see how the stalker micro has any bearing can't he just kill all your probes while you're microing your stalker? Replays would help. Here's an example proxy gate game: http://replayfu.com/download/27c5b07ba1717be3badce72a2f692673I didn't remember to scout the proxy location in that game. He even unpowered my gateway when he killed a pylon. With a little bit of probe micro losses are avoidable. Can you upload to another place or reupload? Replayfu doesn't seem to like you.
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Mr. Alej, I tried out this build, and I beat my practice partner with it after actually doing it right after the 7th try.... Problem is, next game he went "" And warped his stalkers in the back of his base, so I couldn't attack them while warping.... thing is, he only warped in 3 stalkers and warped 1 at my main.... then when I tried to pull back and make the 3 zealots to defend... he began to kite them and warped in 4 zealots at my main.... So I ended up retreating into a crazy melee of my 3z vs his 4z1s at my main while running my 3 stalkers back... with his 3 stalkers in hot pursuit... I did some decent econ damage (i.e. 4 probes) but he just pulled gas probes to minerals and then overwhelmed me with superior zealot production! Is there anyway to stop this?
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On October 11 2011 10:06 ShatterZer0 wrote:Mr. Alej, I tried out this build, and I beat my practice partner with it after actually doing it right after the 7th try.... Problem is, next game he went " " And warped his stalkers in the back of his base, so I couldn't attack them while warping.... thing is, he only warped in 3 stalkers and warped 1 at my main.... then when I tried to pull back and make the 3 zealots to defend... he began to kite them and warped in 4 zealots at my main.... So I ended up retreating into a crazy melee of my 3z vs his 4z1s at my main while running my 3 stalkers back... with his 3 stalkers in hot pursuit... I did some decent econ damage (i.e. 4 probes) but he just pulled gas probes to minerals and then overwhelmed me with superior zealot production! Is there anyway to stop this? You'll need to attach a replay. This build is very sensitive for build times and warp in times imo. Any deviation can throw you off so that would be my guess but I can't tell for certain without a replay.
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On October 11 2011 08:29 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 13:53 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 10 2011 13:48 BronzeKnee wrote: I am incredibly impressed with this build, thank you for sharing it with me. It might actually replace the build I've worked so hard on to perfect in PvP.
However, I am not convinced that you'll beat a 10 Gate Robo straight up, have you tested it against a 10 Gate Robo?
At the time when you would be warping in your first 3 Stalkers, I'd have a Sentry, Stalker and Zealot at the top of y ramp. As long as I hit the first FF, I think I would hold, since I'd have the gas to warp in a second sentry almost immediately if need be (and an Immortal would be building). By the time you'd be warping in the Zealots, I'd have that second sentry, an Immortal and second Zealot would follow soon after. It would be interesting to test. Can you post a replay of you running this build vs AI? I'd like to see wg timing/robo timing/how many gates are done at wg timing/ # of probes/ timing or presence of 2nd gas that kind of thing really curious to see thanks!! edit: or just provide an indepth BO that I could run for the sake of holding all else constant? I assume he means this? I'm not aware of any others. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=238165timings: + Show Spoiler +0:51 finish 9th probe 1:11 finish 10th probe 1:16 gateway 1:24 start 11th probe 1:37 gas (finsh 2:07) 2:22 core 2:31 15 probe finish 5:22 warpgate tech finish 5:42 immortal finish I'm pretty sure it loses to this 11gate fast warpgate build. I remember testing against 11gate 4gate and the 11gater brought 2 probes making it impossible to reliably stop the high ground pylon and first warp-in.
Here's a replay from those test games I mentioned.
http://drop.sc/43000
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I'm sorry, but there is already a guide of this, and has been out for quite a while. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=228469
Your guide is way better than mine though, so I'll let it slide I have used this build a ton, and it really works well vs a lot of things, especially as it hits 20 sec before a regular 4gate. People who rely on forcefields to hold the attack will quickly realize they suddenly have one too few. Even if you can't get up the ramp, you can continue building probes, take a second gas, and pressure the enemy with your own units. It does rely on your opponent going "wtf?" though, so it wont work more than once in a row.
EDIT: I'm not the inventor of the build either. I actually learned it from someone I met on the ladder, who learned it from someone else. So its still a mystery. It could be one of those cases where a lot of people simply invent the same build, and it sortof blends together.
EDIT2: This build beats 10gate robo pretty bad. Usually you'll be far inside his base when the immortal pops out, and you can simply snipe it. Even if not, he wont have much more than 2 sentries, a stalker and an immortal, 4 zealots and 6 stalkers beats that, ramp or no ramp. + you should be able to warp right into his main another 3 zealots.
EDIT3: This build also works fantastically vs zerg. Not so much vs terran as 90% walls off their front these days. But vs zerg, it works out pretty much like the old 4gate, before it was patched, and most zergs are just not ready for it.
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This is a very important build.
One disappointing thing is that most Toss don't know their stalker timings that well. So they leave BEFORE seeing the gas on 23 and think HARD FOUR GATE!!!.
Timing is very tough to get down. Frankly, I've never hit it perfectly :p. I usually proxy the 24 pylon somewhere on the map because it's a good backup if my probe gets jacked, or he catches me w/ 2 zeals + stalker.
Plus, if you proxy the 24 pylon, you can engage the 3 stalkers (if you see 3 stalker rush) and get back map control if he stops the proxy 25 pylons.
To tell you the truth, I actually don't like getting too far ahead. So sometimes just pressure with 4 super fast stalkers is all I want. I mean, if you have seconds with 3 more stalkers than him... he's crippled and there's no game to be played. If you just show 4 stalkers and fake the 4 gate, you can chrono probes like made and tech and play a long game with a little lead, but you can still play a close macro game.
I actually skimmed the oz pvps yesterday and noticed this build. Good write up.
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This is a fantastic build, thank you for posting it. I started using it last night and have gone 15-4 on the ladder (high platinum/low-mid diamond opponents). It actually has a lot of utility against all three races; I used it regardless of the match-up. The ability to apply so much early pressure works very well against more than just Protoss.
The four games I lost were twice to Protoss, once to Terran and once to Zerg. All the losses were due to my own errors, specifically timing errors.
Against Protoss, I had trouble getting my proxy pylons established and allowed both opponents to establish their Warpgates, and my initial force was crushed both times. Correcting this will be a matter of better timing and hiding my pylons better.
The Terran loss was a pure macro error - I managed to push inside their base, destroy half their forces, a barracks, two add-ons and two supply depots before I was repelled. Unfortunately my macro slipped and I made zero workers during this time, despite having an excess of minerals. Terran stayed even on me with economy, used mules to fund repeated counter-attacks while he was expanding. I had Blink by this point and managed to repel 4 waves of MM attacks, but he eventually broke through due to his economic lead.
Versus Zerg, my proxy pylons were picked off before I could warp in and I made too many Zealots...I was watching the Stephano/Kiwikaki game last night and adapted this build slightly so that I was constantly producing zealots while Warpgate was researching, but the ball of Zealots got surrounded on the way over and I couldn't reinforce due to my proxy pylons getting taken out.
All in all, I think this build has a tremendous amount of utility against all three races - at least at my level. I'm sure high diamond/masters Zerg/Terran players would have an easier time fending it off.
I didn't always win on the first push, but I was always able to take out an expo (Zerg) or a lot of opposing units, allowing me to continue boosting economy and transition into a different build.
The OP was definitely right about two things - your timing has to be PERFECT or close to, and this concerns both building/warpgate timing and proxy pylon placement. Secondly, this build just annihilates any kind of 1-Gate Robo play. It's quite satisfying to have your opponents swear at you for 4-Gating and then you tell them you were 3-Gating them.
Anyway, thanks for posting this build, it may be just what I need to get into Diamond. :D
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http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&&id=236578
Here is a replay vs what looked like a 3stalker rush but was a faster 2 stalker off of 2 gates.. something I haven't really seen much of. I don't really do a lot of direct damage with the push but I force a couple of sentries (which I then cancel out by making 2 of my own which I didn't need O_O) and have a 2 probe lead once the rush is over. If nothing else, this build forces a big defensive reaction since they see you warp in so quickly and usually assume you're going to all in.
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On October 10 2011 08:20 iSTime wrote: Against 3 stalker rush I think the best response is just to steal their 2nd gas and grab yours early, using the gas advantage rather than trying to pressure, though.
I start thinking the same. I've tried this build a bit now on masters level and I think pushing vs 3 stalker opening hurts me more than if i would just sit back and enjoy my faster gas and contine probe production with cb (they need to cut probes to get their 3 stalker rush working as well, that's where you can catch up in eco). They usually see my early gate (11gate) and cb out their stalkers, so usually he can deny my units quite handily. I didn't think about just gas stealing him in that situation, will do that, thanks. Although some people take their 2nd gas as well with 3 stalker opening to deny gas steal, but then again it should be fine since it delays their next pylon and probe production even further. This way I can at least get into a sound midgame with good eco and tech to whatever my plan is.
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thx for the guide. i was a little lost in PvP again (after the Immortal buff / blink nurf) and that Tinman built looks like fun I´ll try that definitely! :D
Cheers
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heya thanks for another nice [G] thread!
Can u maybe add a replay were u actually do what you are discribing?^^ They are all kinda wonkey/cannonrush/"fuckups"
Thanks
edit: just redread the thread again and saw your planing on doing it. thx again
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So I was doing this build in YABOT, and as far as I can tell, you wont be able to stop a gas steal and still get everything on time, because you have to send out your zealot and stalker right after they spawn--which isn't enough time to kill the stolen gas--won't you not killing your stolen gas geyser be kind of mysterious to the enemy?
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On October 17 2011 11:01 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: So I was doing this build in YABOT, and as far as I can tell, you wont be able to stop a gas steal and still get everything on time, because you have to send out your zealot and stalker right after they spawn--which isn't enough time to kill the stolen gas--won't you not killing your stolen gas geyser be kind of mysterious to the enemy?
If he is gas stealing that early, your rush is gonna be that more effective, since his 1st/2nd stalker will be few seconds later (seconds = inches = adds up yo).
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I tried this for the first time on ladder and my timings were sloppy and only had 5 seconds before his 4 gates kicking in. Managed to win because he expanded and went for a robo (probably thinking he was way more ahead than he actually was), but yeah. Gonna go into some AI games and just refine the timing. Thanks for the guide Alej :D
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Really cool build but its not so much better against cannonrush then a 12 gate
I think the build is really good because you still have the second gas up when you see you wont break him.
I think the best counter to this is a defensivly 12 gate -> 4 gate or an agressive 4 gate but i really have to test this out
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On October 17 2011 12:43 Fubnub wrote:Really cool build but its not so much better against cannonrush then a 12 gate I think the build is really good because you still have the second gas up when you see you wont break him. I think the best counter to this is a defensivly 12 gate -> 4 gate or an agressive 4 gate but i really have to test this out
What?
You've pretty much stated everything opposite to the OP, with no facts...
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On October 12 2011 06:49 TrueNorth16 wrote: This is a fantastic build, thank you for posting it. I started using it last night and have gone 15-4 on the ladder (high platinum/low-mid diamond opponents). It actually has a lot of utility against all three races; I used it regardless of the match-up. The ability to apply so much early pressure works very well against more than just Protoss.
The four games I lost were twice to Protoss, once to Terran and once to Zerg. All the losses were due to my own errors, specifically timing errors.
Against Protoss, I had trouble getting my proxy pylons established and allowed both opponents to establish their Warpgates, and my initial force was crushed both times. Correcting this will be a matter of better timing and hiding my pylons better.
The Terran loss was a pure macro error - I managed to push inside their base, destroy half their forces, a barracks, two add-ons and two supply depots before I was repelled. Unfortunately my macro slipped and I made zero workers during this time, despite having an excess of minerals. Terran stayed even on me with economy, used mules to fund repeated counter-attacks while he was expanding. I had Blink by this point and managed to repel 4 waves of MM attacks, but he eventually broke through due to his economic lead.
Versus Zerg, my proxy pylons were picked off before I could warp in and I made too many Zealots...I was watching the Stephano/Kiwikaki game last night and adapted this build slightly so that I was constantly producing zealots while Warpgate was researching, but the ball of Zealots got surrounded on the way over and I couldn't reinforce due to my proxy pylons getting taken out.
All in all, I think this build has a tremendous amount of utility against all three races - at least at my level. I'm sure high diamond/masters Zerg/Terran players would have an easier time fending it off.
I didn't always win on the first push, but I was always able to take out an expo (Zerg) or a lot of opposing units, allowing me to continue boosting economy and transition into a different build.
The OP was definitely right about two things - your timing has to be PERFECT or close to, and this concerns both building/warpgate timing and proxy pylon placement. Secondly, this build just annihilates any kind of 1-Gate Robo play. It's quite satisfying to have your opponents swear at you for 4-Gating and then you tell them you were 3-Gating them.
Anyway, thanks for posting this build, it may be just what I need to get into Diamond. :D
How does this work against terran? It seems like almost every terran on ladder walls in now.
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@Alej,
I have been using this on YABOT and ladder. I can hit the 5:22 - 5:23 warp-in about 80% of the time on YABOT (still some work to be done).
In real games I'm much later obv, sometimes by 15-20 seconds (poor multi task). I often get these kind of delays when I'm micro-ing zealot/stalker, and slip up on the CB.
What I have noticed though, is that with maps that have un-even minerals (take metalopolis as a map with 'even' minerals, you can do 4x perfect mineral patches). I can't get anywhere close to 5:22, even on YABOT.
Is 5:22 still achievable on maps like TD altar, or shakuras etc, ones that don't have the standard 4-close patches that you can do a 3-3 split on @ start of game?
Hope you get what I mean about the mineral patches, it's hard to describe.
Secondly, against 3 stalker openings - where you don't scout him last (so you can 100% confirm 3 stalker).
Do you think It's ok to drop 1 pylon in a safe, but close area, do your 3x stalker warp-in and then attack? Or should I not even bother, and just power probes/tech (like you state in OP).
After watching some replays of my opponents, I feel I still have a 15second++ window to do damage right after I warp-in my 3 stalkers, since they're still waiting on WG tech, and only have 3 stalkers. Thoughts?
Ref: Playing @ 1300 masters.
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Sounds interesting, brings back memories of the korean 4 gate when that was pretty much the same goal, to get WG faster to punish your oponent during the few second that is WG was not finish. I'll give it a try, thx to have taken the time to make this guide.
ACEhellRush
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On October 17 2011 20:01 Trusty wrote: @Alej,
I have been using this on YABOT and ladder. I can hit the 5:22 - 5:23 warp-in about 80% of the time on YABOT (still some work to be done).
In real games I'm much later obv, sometimes by 15-20 seconds (poor multi task). I often get these kind of delays when I'm micro-ing zealot/stalker, and slip up on the CB.
What I have noticed though, is that with maps that have un-even minerals (take metalopolis as a map with 'even' minerals, you can do 4x perfect mineral patches). I can't get anywhere close to 5:22, even on YABOT.
Is 5:22 still achievable on maps like TD altar, or shakuras etc, ones that don't have the standard 4-close patches that you can do a 3-3 split on @ start of game?
Hope you get what I mean about the mineral patches, it's hard to describe.
Secondly, against 3 stalker openings - where you don't scout him last (so you can 100% confirm 3 stalker).
Do you think It's ok to drop 1 pylon in a safe, but close area, do your 3x stalker warp-in and then attack? Or should I not even bother, and just power probes/tech (like you state in OP).
After watching some replays of my opponents, I feel I still have a 15second++ window to do damage right after I warp-in my 3 stalkers, since they're still waiting on WG tech, and only have 3 stalkers. Thoughts?
Ref: Playing @ 1300 masters.
for optimizing the WG timings, I think it's best to base it off of other things that you can observe. IE I think one of the cb's comes after the stalker, one comes after you put down gas etc. yes a lot of the time their WG will be much later than yours. The 12 seconds that I speak of in the OP is against an EXTREMELY fast 4gate (4 cb on nexus, 12g/16core etc). Typically, most people get it much later while they're doing greedier builds and relying on their zealot/stalker/stalker or zealot/stalker/sentry to defend at this juncture. You definitely have a leg up on them after your 1st warp-in and significantly so after the 2nd warp-in. just be careful of sentry
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This is a great build. Really abuses the current metagame where everyone is just doing whatever builds. I still have to work on my timings though, I get the CC out by 2.31-2.32 but I usually end up warping in about 10-15 seconds later that optimal. Is this purely due to chrono boost usage?
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On October 18 2011 07:47 Logros wrote: This is a great build. Really abuses the current metagame where everyone is just doing whatever builds. I still have to work on my timings though, I get the CC out by 2.31-2.32 but I usually end up warping in about 10-15 seconds later that optimal. Is this purely due to chrono boost usage?
Most likely. It's really hard to get all 5 on the chrono boost in a real game where you are microing your scouting probe and zealot-stalker as opposed to practicing vs ai and being able to monitor chronoboost much more exclusively. Try linking different parts of the build to times when you should chronoboost or just keep an eye on the top left notifier thing (if you have that on; i put it on when I started trying this build).
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On October 17 2011 16:56 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:49 TrueNorth16 wrote: This is a fantastic build, thank you for posting it. I started using it last night and have gone 15-4 on the ladder (high platinum/low-mid diamond opponents). It actually has a lot of utility against all three races; I used it regardless of the match-up. The ability to apply so much early pressure works very well against more than just Protoss.
The four games I lost were twice to Protoss, once to Terran and once to Zerg. All the losses were due to my own errors, specifically timing errors.
Against Protoss, I had trouble getting my proxy pylons established and allowed both opponents to establish their Warpgates, and my initial force was crushed both times. Correcting this will be a matter of better timing and hiding my pylons better.
The Terran loss was a pure macro error - I managed to push inside their base, destroy half their forces, a barracks, two add-ons and two supply depots before I was repelled. Unfortunately my macro slipped and I made zero workers during this time, despite having an excess of minerals. Terran stayed even on me with economy, used mules to fund repeated counter-attacks while he was expanding. I had Blink by this point and managed to repel 4 waves of MM attacks, but he eventually broke through due to his economic lead.
Versus Zerg, my proxy pylons were picked off before I could warp in and I made too many Zealots...I was watching the Stephano/Kiwikaki game last night and adapted this build slightly so that I was constantly producing zealots while Warpgate was researching, but the ball of Zealots got surrounded on the way over and I couldn't reinforce due to my proxy pylons getting taken out.
All in all, I think this build has a tremendous amount of utility against all three races - at least at my level. I'm sure high diamond/masters Zerg/Terran players would have an easier time fending it off.
I didn't always win on the first push, but I was always able to take out an expo (Zerg) or a lot of opposing units, allowing me to continue boosting economy and transition into a different build.
The OP was definitely right about two things - your timing has to be PERFECT or close to, and this concerns both building/warpgate timing and proxy pylon placement. Secondly, this build just annihilates any kind of 1-Gate Robo play. It's quite satisfying to have your opponents swear at you for 4-Gating and then you tell them you were 3-Gating them.
Anyway, thanks for posting this build, it may be just what I need to get into Diamond. :D How does this work against terran? It seems like almost every terran on ladder walls in now.
Well, this may just be in my experience and at my ladder level (high plat-low diamond) but a lot of Terran players just don't have the units early enough to hold, and you can just blow throw their wall-off with your zealot + 3 stalkers + second warp-in.
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I have seen hero do a variation of this in his PvPs, but he proxies his 24 food pylon in a pretty safe place that can be used as a back up in case you can't secure the pylon(s) at the ramp. You run the risk of losing that pylon after the rush, but you guarantee your first aggressive warp-in.
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As someone mentioned, I don't quite get the part what you'd do against gas steal. The NORMAL gassteal happens when you are about to start your zlot, so there's no way to do the pressure while also destroying it. I feel like the "pressure" turns into allin if you're forced to let the gas stay alive: opponents tend to fullblock their ramp and just hard counter your build if they notice you don't destroy the steal. If you do, however, you aren't able to get your probe to make the proxypylons since lot+stalker aren't there to disrupt their stalkers.
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On October 23 2011 07:59 Ouga wrote: As someone mentioned, I don't quite get the part what you'd do against gas steal. The NORMAL gassteal happens when you are about to start your zlot, so there's no way to do the pressure while also destroying it. I feel like the "pressure" turns into allin if you're forced to let the gas stay alive: opponents tend to fullblock their ramp and just hard counter your build if they notice you don't destroy the steal. If you do, however, you aren't able to get your probe to make the proxypylons since lot+stalker aren't there to disrupt their stalkers.
If they are stealing your gas that early, you can steal theirs as well. If they take their 2nd gas and steal yours, that's an entire gw for them that won't be up for WG research so your pressure will be that much stronger. I'd advise not to try to take it down with your initial zealot stalker and instead commit to the rush. I don't see this as too much of a problem
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Well, that's also THEIR regular time to take their 2nd gas. So, if they take theirs first, I feel you're forced to take your 2. gas instantly after theirs. And I'm not sure you can afford to take your 2. gas @18 with this BO, if you start zlot first.
I'm saying I don't think it can be helped that sometimes opponent goes 3gas against your 1. It's just matter of what's the best reaction to it from this BO. I'd argue that it might be the best to just cut to allining, instead of doing pressure and then very much later warp zlots in your main to kill off that gas @ 7:00ish. His WG is likely 15sec behind, while also putting 150mins on gases, I'd rather cut probes to 18-20 and 4g out of this.
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I'll have to try this out, seems like it would be an interesting build to try out.
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Just switched to Protoss recently and i wanna say i love this build!!! i've been practicing it daily. The fastest i can get the warp in was 5:25. Usually its around 5:30ish give or take 1-2 seconds. Thanks so much for sharing this ^_^. I'd love to hear about some of ur other builds vs other matchups (10/11 gate thats is, i just love the early core builds, so versatile)
I've been pondering what my responses should be if i don't outright kill my opponent.
If they 4 gated, 3 gated, if i see a robo, stargate etc. As well as a mirror build. I'd love to hear ur thoughts.
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On October 23 2011 23:50 ReachTheSky wrote: Just switched to Protoss recently and i wanna say i love this build!!! i've been practicing it daily. The fastest i can get the warp in was 5:25. Usually its around 5:30ish give or take 1-2 seconds. Thanks so much for sharing this ^_^. I'd love to hear about some of ur other builds vs other matchups (10/11 gate thats is, i just love the early core builds, so versatile)
I've been pondering what my responses should be if i don't outright kill my opponent.
If they 4 gated, 3 gated, if i see a robo, stargate etc. As well as a mirror build. I'd love to hear ur thoughts. post me some replays and i'd be glad to comment on them! typically if they 4gate, you want to warp in your zealots defensively because there's no way you can apply the pressure whilst clearing all the pylons on your side of the map and play it safe with your 2nd gas (2 sentries after zealot warp in since you'll have enough gas for that). Any build you go against with this that doesn't have 3 gateways will be hard pressed to hold you off. Any transition is extremely dependent on how many units you see them make, what kind of units they are and how effectively they parry the attack so yes I'd need to see replays to give specific advice!
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
I tried doing this a few times after seeing choya do it on his stream but I hadn't managed to get the timing right. This guide was very helpfull, thank you.
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This build is awesome, it turned my PvP from my worst matchup into a solid one, where I don't feel like I have to cheese Thank you Alejandrisha!!!!!
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I have to ask (since I'm bad at PvP), what do you do against a 10 gate 4 gate with this build?
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On October 24 2011 10:27 ma70 wrote: I have to ask (since I'm bad at PvP), what do you do against a 10 gate 4 gate with this build?
If you scout a gate/core that is faster than yours, I'd advise you not to put up aggressive pylons unless you know for sure he's not 4gating--this can be difficult as I have seen some 10 gate builds that turn into 2gate for very fast pairs of stalkers and you really can't tell whether or not they're adding 2 gates or not. I'd advise you to play defensively against this kind of play (10 gate into gate-core-gate, or 10 gate along with not being able to rule out 4gate) and start mining from your 2nd gas more quickly to get out a sentry or 2 for defense. After that, you'll have a better economy because of your 2nd gas and your 11 gate vs his 10 (he cut more probes).
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This build has made me feel soooo much better about pvp. Since I read this guide on Friday (and due to the fact I was off for the weekend) I went from rank 50 diamond to rank 11 due to the confidence it gave me to ladder more ^_^. I now do not feel any dread towards the match-up.
I did run into somebody doing the 3 stalker build which gave me some issues, but when I ran into him the second time he d/c'd, so I won in the end ^^.
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This build has become my staple pvp opening since I read this thread, I really recommend it.
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whats a good timing for warpins with this build? i think the first time i tried it i had 3 stalkers warping in at 5:26
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On October 24 2011 14:01 ChineseWife wrote: whats a good timing for warpins with this build? i think the first time i tried it i had 3 stalkers warping in at 5:26 5:22 is extremely good and it's what you want to shoot for. 5:26 for a first try is very good...
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I like this build concept a lot. I've hated PvP ever since they nerfed 4 gate (cause to me, 4 gate wars were fun cause I like micro intensive stuff) so I've just been doing 10 gate 4 gates cause well, the games end quickly for me or the opponent. I'm going to try doing this and see what it does for me. Looks really fun and micro intensive (which is what I prefer over long macro games)
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I'm having some trouble figuring out what to do as a follow up to this build. What do you guys normally do if you don't kill your opponent out right or get shut out by forcefields? In addition, I'm having trouble deciding when it is best to either retreat and macro or keep attacking.
I'll try and post a replay later tonight for some of your thoughts and how I can refine the way I do the build.
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how is this counters cannon rush? Oo
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Any chance of a replay where you execute it correctly? o.o
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On October 25 2011 02:40 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Any chance of a replay where you execute it correctly? o.o even oz/hero don't always get the timings down perfectly each time. the skill cieling on this build is extremely high when you consider the zel/stalk micro in the middle of the map as well as dealing with the enemy probe scout and still managing to hit all 5 cb's. we still haven't seen a perfect player and even the best only approach the ideal timings on this build when they do it
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Great guide!
I don't think anybody has asked the obligatory question, so can you do this on Tal'darim Altar? It seems like there isn't any reason you shouldn't be able to, but I have not tried it.
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Really awesome build! its SO strong i have been having loads of success with it.
I wanted to ask how should u respond if you see them chrono'ing their gateway for an early 1 zeal 2 Stalker push?
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on TDA it's harder to hold a 4gate after your push. You can warp in defensive zealots to hold their zealot warpin (if they snuck the pylon despite your pressure) but you're really relying on a 2 sentry warp-in after your zealot warp-in to hold off defensive 4gates after the attack. It's still possible and you can do it, but this is the reason why I don't do it on TDA.
jev- if they cb the stalker that's fine; they'll have their wg done even later. if they have faster stalkers you might need to warp 2 pylons on the low ground instead of 1 high and 1 low if you can't get up the ramp without taking too many hits.
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how do you deal with the fact that at his base when you go tp put down pylon, he has 2 stalkers and a zealot to your one stalker one zealot, i keep losing my initial two units, or one at least no matter how well i micro. i get the pylons and down and get the warp in before him but as soon as he warps in he seems to be ahead.
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here's a pretty good replay for the build
http://replayfu.com/download/85P8Ft
it is vs 3 stalker rush into robo. Because my wg is much faster than his, I can do enough damage to merit staying around after the first 2 warp-ins. the pressure nets me a lofty probe lead which snowballs out of control.
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Found out this is basically auto loss vs a proxy 2 gate today T.T
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On October 28 2011 07:55 CaptainHaz wrote: Found out this is basically auto loss vs a proxy 2 gate today T.T
Well, I do it on 4 player maps as is in the build. On 2 player maps, I scout on 12 for proxies but then send it back to mine. Give that a shot! Only slows it down by a little bit.
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On October 28 2011 08:03 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 07:55 CaptainHaz wrote: Found out this is basically auto loss vs a proxy 2 gate today T.T Well, I do it on 4 player maps as is in the build. On 2 player maps, I scout on 12 for proxies but then send it back to mine. Give that a shot! Only slows it down by a little bit.
I personally try to put my first pylon and gate somewhere close to my nexus to save mining time, but on that side of my base where I can get vision if there is some canon rush coming. The pylon on 14 supply follows a similar concept and goes to the position in my base where i can overlook the most common 2 gate proxy position in my base. By doing that I've seen basically every proxy gate and canon rush so far without needing an early scout.
If his probe behaves somehow suspicious I will do an extra check however (ofc he could plant proxy gates somewhere else in front of your base etc).
But however you want to do it, I really recommend thinking about the placement of your first buildings in your base, you don't really want to lose much mining time and plant them somehow close to your nexus while still being able to spot some incoming cheese. You can also put your pylon on 14 at your entrance (same position you would start your pylon vs zerg if you open one base) to see incoming probes and sneaky behaviour.
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On October 28 2011 12:35 Fairwell wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 08:03 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 28 2011 07:55 CaptainHaz wrote: Found out this is basically auto loss vs a proxy 2 gate today T.T Well, I do it on 4 player maps as is in the build. On 2 player maps, I scout on 12 for proxies but then send it back to mine. Give that a shot! Only slows it down by a little bit. I personally try to put my first pylon and gate somewhere close to my nexus to save mining time, but on that side of my base where I can get vision if there is some canon rush coming. The pylon on 14 supply follows a similar concept and goes to the position in my base where i can overlook the most common 2 gate proxy position in my base. By doing that I've seen basically every proxy gate and canon rush so far without needing an early scout. If his probe behaves somehow suspicious I will do an extra check however (ofc he could plant proxy gates somewhere else in front of your base etc). But however you want to do it, I really recommend thinking about the placement of your first buildings in your base, you don't really want to lose much mining time and plant them somehow close to your nexus while still being able to spot some incoming cheese. You can also put your pylon on 14 at your entrance (same position you would start your pylon vs zerg if you open one base) to see incoming probes and sneaky behaviour.
yeah of course your 1st pylon and gate go to see the cannon rush but on xel naga proxy gates will be in the nat or in your base, not below the ledge
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This style is so hard to adjust to. Feels like you're 4gating (So my brain is shutting down the probe building section) but you're not. You're getting an econ or army lead (or both) and transitioning into some new game state that isn't really known. I'm talking about my fellow protosses that have been doing robo builds (Solid econ, solid timing against expos, rather defensive starting out) or attacking builds (less than solid econ, rather offensive).
So I'm really slowly transitioning into this. By slowly, I mean, 0 wins 7 losses. Turns out I can't just expand after killing half his probes (with 3 gateway production, or 3gateway robo production), accounting for first two losses. Then probe surrounds when I'm not careful on the attack. And all this while not building probes at home =(.
http://drop.sc/49904 (Both sides Masters)
Latest, a bad engagement for me, bad judgement call on the late expand (I should've been pursuing end-game tech more rapidly). Alej, if you find anything else glaring let me know. I'm still hopeful another 10-15 games will clear up what kinda followups are best in the 1) Did heavy probe damage, lost most army 2) Did heavy probe damage, lost very little army 3) Did only a little army and little probe damage, kept army. Expo has been kicking me in the butt for first 2 (immortals and/or just lots of gateway)
Love the intial aggression, hate how difficult the adjustment is to a superaggressive build that has a planned eco lead. Protoss, beware that aside from initial attack, its gonna take a little brain rewiring to get rest right.
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On October 28 2011 18:31 Danglars wrote:This style is so hard to adjust to. Feels like you're 4gating (So my brain is shutting down the probe building section) but you're not. You're getting an econ or army lead (or both) and transitioning into some new game state that isn't really known. I'm talking about my fellow protosses that have been doing robo builds (Solid econ, solid timing against expos, rather defensive starting out) or attacking builds (less than solid econ, rather offensive). So I'm really slowly transitioning into this. By slowly, I mean, 0 wins 7 losses. Turns out I can't just expand after killing half his probes (with 3 gateway production, or 3gateway robo production), accounting for first two losses. Then probe surrounds when I'm not careful on the attack. And all this while not building probes at home =(. http://drop.sc/49904 (Both sides Masters) Latest, a bad engagement for me, bad judgement call on the late expand (I should've been pursuing end-game tech more rapidly). Alej, if you find anything else glaring let me know. I'm still hopeful another 10-15 games will clear up what kinda followups are best in the 1) Did heavy probe damage, lost most army 2) Did heavy probe damage, lost very little army 3) Did only a little army and little probe damage, kept army. Expo has been kicking me in the butt for first 2 (immortals and/or just lots of gateway) Love the intial aggression, hate how difficult the adjustment is to a superaggressive build that has a planned eco lead. Protoss, beware that aside from initial attack, its gonna take a little brain rewiring to get rest right. most likely at the end of the rush, even if you kill 10 probes, he should have more units than you. At this point you play very defensively because as long as you have sentries, his higher army count won't allow him to kill you (this is why i don't recommend this on tal'darim). In the meantime, he can't really make units; he has to cb out probes and probably tech. You can expand, but not immediately after. Wait for your econ lead to give you a units/tech lead and then you may make the decision to safely expand, or just go for a 1 base play. i'll watch your specific rep
edit: i recommend the replay i just posted; it does a good job of demonstrating this concept
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On October 28 2011 03:03 Alejandrisha wrote:here's a pretty good replay for the build http://replayfu.com/download/85P8Ftit is vs 3 stalker rush into robo. Because my wg is much faster than his, I can do enough damage to merit staying around after the first 2 warp-ins. the pressure nets me a lofty probe lead which snowballs out of control.
Your warpgate wasn't much faster than his-- he did an 11gate too! I think you were extremely lucky that his build had a huge flaw... the third pylon was too early. His second stalker was a couple of seconds late and third was 10 seconds late. Worst of all, his third gateway was late as a result of that pylon and not in sync with warpgate research completing. If he didn't mess this up, you would have walked up his ramp and met 3 stalkers straight away. If he built his third gateway earlier you would have both had the same production facilities kicking in at the same time. He would have the army advantage and you wouldn't have done any damage whatsoever + lost two pylons. It's funny that his build is probably one of the few that will beat yours outright, but a few mistakes in execution completely flips the outcome.
Thanks for posting the replay though, I hadn't seen an 11-gate 3 stalker rush. I think I'm going to steal his build but do it right :D
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http://replayfu.com/r/vVPTTm
Can somebody help me refine how I should've defended that?
It's a game on xel naga where I checked for the proxy right away with my 15 scout. I canceled the core immediately and put up a second gate. Didn't work out for me, so any tips at all would be great.
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On that map just scout earlier because he knows where you are and can get a really close blind proxy. Check below your main both in and out of your base too. Costs you a few seconds but it's worth it to stop this 100% of the time. You end up with the same zealot count but far more econ. Also, you don't need to cut probes like you did, you can afford probes and zealots. The rest comes down to micro.
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On October 28 2011 07:55 CaptainHaz wrote: Found out this is basically auto loss vs a proxy 2 gate today T.T
I'm not so sure about that, I've beaten proxy 2gate more than I've lost to it. I could see if they hide zealots for an exceptionally long time it could be a problem but a little probe micro and 1gate stalker seems to do pretty well against it.
http://drop.sc/50742 + Show Spoiler +This game is against a map hacker who proxy 2gates at my natural and I don't scout it until zealots come into my main. It's a sloppy game but I win.
http://drop.sc/51305+ Show Spoiler +This game I have a good feeling it's a proxy or cannon rush because of his scout timing and it turning around like it's trying to hide,
(~2:11 would be a reasonable time for a pylon scout getting to my base 2nd try but there would be no reason to juke back if that was the case, and hardly anyone pylon scouts in pvp with good intentions
Regardless I scout for proxy after pylon instead of core but it only ends up hurting me as I don't find anything. His reveal comes a little early and it would've been harder if he had waited until 3 zealots but I still think you can just win the game with 1gate stalker and good control.
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On October 30 2011 11:19 Lemonayd wrote:http://replayfu.com/r/vVPTTmCan somebody help me refine how I should've defended that? It's a game on xel naga where I checked for the proxy right away with my 15 scout. I canceled the core immediately and put up a second gate. Didn't work out for me, so any tips at all would be great.
First some general build stuff:
You're a little slow on your start. You start your first probe at 0:03 and then move your probes. You'll notice your opponent's probe production is about 2 seconds ahead of yours. If you're not doing it already I recommend holding your 'e' key down during the loading screen and having your mouse roughly in the center of the screen so you can just click your nexus to start building your probe asaply.
Second your gateway is late it starts at 1:35 and should start at 1:25 on xel'naga, or at least before 1:30. This is because you accidentally queued up a 12th probe.
Third you start your gas a bit too early, you can wait until 14. I rally my 13th probe to my gas and build it on 14 and the economy works out basically perfectly.
Fourth you start your core on 16 instead of 15. You built 1 too many probes before the core. This is kind of hard to notice because of the late gate. Your probe also needs to be johnny on the spot with the core timing. You need a probe pulled before the gateway is done warping-in preferably having pressed 'b' and spamming 'y' while clicking on the ground to build your core immediately.
Now for dealing with the proxy:
I think your building placement needs to be a little tighter first of all either pull it back to the top or the bottom gas and keep it all together with a small hallway that you can funnel his zealots through in case he does proxy gate you. It helps for fighting with less units and probes and helps defend pylons. Pylons are juicy targets for proxy gates and yours are very exposed. The proxy pylon in his base isn't going to do much for you. Better to keep your buildings powered.
If your choice is to fight with a later 2nd gateway you need to pull workers off gas immediately. You need to react more quickly putting your 2nd gate as well, you spot the proxy and 2:40 (before you put the core actually) but notice it at 2:47 but don't cancel your core until 3:00. That's almost a chrono boosted zealot of production lost in reaction time. You need to pull way back with your zealots and not engage until he forces you to and then do so with enough probes helping to tip the scales of being down in zealots. You had 5 more probes than he did so you can afford to be not mining with a around that many of them.
I think the better choice, if you fix all the build order stuff, is to embrace your ultra fast core and get 1gate chrono'd stalkers. You can have a zealot, stalker and ~17 probes to engage against his first 3 zealots with. I think if you get to ~4 stalkers you can just go kill all his probes and then come back and clean up his zealots. Remember you can always get an extra 50 gas for another stalker by cancelling warpgate tech.
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This build is so good. I have 80-90% winrate in PvP now thanks to this . The great thing is that it's not all in at all and you can always pull back after you've done some damage.
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This build never works for me ill post a replay later but it seems they always have more units than you when you try to put the pylon up
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On November 01 2011 18:33 ProxyKnoxy wrote:This build never works for me ill post a replay later but it seems they always have more units than you when you try to put the pylon up
Your timings are off then. You should have a stalker and a zealot just like him. You should be fighting his stalker and zealot which distracts him long enough to get the pylon's set up. If he tries to focus down on the probe you will atleast get a pylon on the low ground and also have the advantage now because now you'll be ahead on units.
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I've been practicing this build by doing it every game against all races. I've actually had a lot of success against T by getting in early causing some damage and then going in to a contain while I expand.
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very epic write up, wrote down build, will practice later :D thanks
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I've been working hard to get the timings down and trying to figure out a transition out of the build when I can't straight up kill him. I would like you guys to have a look and give me some pointers of where I could improve. I did win but I'm not convinced I won it as easily as I could have.
http://replayfu.com/download/gwhWqm
5:50 - I feel like I could have pushed in a lot earlier than I did. It was definitely down to my pylon placement. Where do you guys normally put the pylon on 25? Just straight up his ramp in his base or just below? If he has a sentry and ff my probe, do you back off or keep pushing up?
9:40 - I cancelled the robo bay and went for dts because he went 4gate, didn't have a forge and I couldn't find his robo. My thought was I'll just kill him with dts or do large economic damage. By doing dt harass with warp prism made him defensive and wasting minerals on cannons, giving me time to expand and tech to colossi. Otherwise I think he might have killed me before, not sure.
If I went the colossi route, since he had a larger army than I did could he have simply killed me?
15:25 - I really shouldn't have lost that warp prism...bad micro by me.
In the last battle I'm slightly confused how I came one top of that. His zealot could was so much higher. I think it was his micro that lost that to be honest. My immortals got free shots off at his colossi. Should I have made more zealots or less probes? I did read you don't really need more than 50 probes in pvp.
Thanks for the your time and help!
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Hohoho, I need to get this in my bag of builds. A friend of mine has been heckling me for a match, I shall show him this PvP build. Good stuff.
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IMHO, this build is not that good, as there are 1 gate robo builds that can hold even this. This is what I do in PvP:
9 pylon 11 boost nexus 12 gate, scout 13 boost nexus 15 gas 16 pylon core when gate finishes (cut probes for ~3-5sec so you can place core immediately when gate finishes) 17/18 2nd gas (Get it as soon as you can without stopping probe production, should be right around the 17->18 supply mark) Start zealot when you have 100 minerals (core will be 45% finished) Cut probes at 19 probes (21/26 supply with zealot under construction) Start warpgates when core finishes, 3 CB on warpgates Robo when you have 200 minerals Start stalker at 125 minerals 20th probe with next 50 minerals Pylon with next 100 minerals Start sentry when stalker finishes Immortal when robo finishes, should have 250 minerals at almost the same time, CB Immortal twice. Make 21st and 22nd probe as soon as minerals are available
The Immortal will pop out at 5:30 with this build, easily crushing this rush as well as any 4 gate provided you don't screw up your forcefields. The strat outlined in the OP you can take straight up, zealot/stalker/sentry/immortal easily kills 4 stalkers and a zealot. This also beats 4 gate as long as you FF correctly and split their force down the middle as they try to get up your ramp. You'll finish warpgates and be able to warp in a second sentry before they get their second round of warpins, letting you decimate them again with a FF down the middle.
The only thing you sacrifice with this rush is a small amount of economy as you have to stop at 20 probes for about a minute of game time before you can add the 21st and 22nd probe for 90% saturation.
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@ Xequecal can you pm me a replay or post it here? When do you put down other gates?
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On November 03 2011 17:51 Xequecal wrote: IMHO, this build is not that good, as there are 1 gate robo builds that can hold even this. This is what I do in PvP:
The fact that one build possibly counters it doesn't make it less viable .. there are still lots of players 4 gating in PvP
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I don't like the build much either as it can be stopped easily with a build that is economically quite ahead. Delaying the first chrono on nexus and not using a second on it either accounts for around a ~75 mineral loss when going up to 22 probes straight. Simply too much imo for such small pressure. The best reaction agianst this imo is a simple 3 gate defense on 2 gas. You'll just get better income and have warpgate ~10-15 sec later but can defend easily because of a sentry. Super fast robo builds like Xequecals also work in holding this off but that isn't a ideal choice in this situation here.. You'll be forced to throw up the robo so early that it's in plain sight of the scouting probe, at which point the other can just respond with stargate and be ahead.
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On November 03 2011 17:51 Xequecal wrote: IMHO, this build is not that good, as there are 1 gate robo builds that can hold even this. This is what I do in PvP:
9 pylon 11 boost nexus 12 gate, scout 13 boost nexus 15 gas 16 pylon core when gate finishes (cut probes for ~3-5sec so you can place core immediately when gate finishes) 17/18 2nd gas (Get it as soon as you can without stopping probe production, should be right around the 17->18 supply mark) Start zealot when you have 100 minerals (core will be 45% finished) Cut probes at 19 probes (21/26 supply with zealot under construction) Start warpgates when core finishes, 3 CB on warpgates Robo when you have 200 minerals Start stalker at 125 minerals 20th probe with next 50 minerals Pylon with next 100 minerals Start sentry when stalker finishes Immortal when robo finishes, should have 250 minerals at almost the same time, CB Immortal twice. Make 21st and 22nd probe as soon as minerals are available
The Immortal will pop out at 5:30 with this build, easily crushing this rush as well as any 4 gate provided you don't screw up your forcefields. The strat outlined in the OP you can take straight up, zealot/stalker/sentry/immortal easily kills 4 stalkers and a zealot. This also beats 4 gate as long as you FF correctly and split their force down the middle as they try to get up your ramp. You'll finish warpgates and be able to warp in a second sentry before they get their second round of warpins, letting you decimate them again with a FF down the middle.
The only thing you sacrifice with this rush is a small amount of economy as you have to stop at 20 probes for about a minute of game time before you can add the 21st and 22nd probe for 90% saturation.
I'm very skeptical about your claims. There seems to be a number of ways for your build to lose.
I'm pretty sure any build that gets a robo before stalker can just be scouted and countered by a reactive stargate into phoenix gateway timing.
Also you only have 1 gateway if they warp-in zealots on the low ground and wait out your 2-3 forcefields they just break your ramp and kill you.
If they choose to high ground warp-in it comes before your immortal is out. And since your robo is easily scouted he could just as well warp-in zealots first. Now you have zealot sentry stalker immortal against 4 zealots and a stalker and he can reinforce much faster than you.
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Hello Alejandrisha! First of all, i love the build and how you care so much about the post, responding to everybody's questions. I don't know it has been asked yet or not (I haven't seen it) but, i have problems holding off warprism 4gate after the push, because i relly on sentrie defense it gets pretty abd if they warpprism me, especially if i hadn't done much damage.
Thank youuu <3
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Excellent description of the build! :D! Favorite build in PvP now!
Thanks <3
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On November 04 2011 02:42 Jaeger wrote: I'm very skeptical about your claims. There seems to be a number of ways for your build to lose.
I'm pretty sure any build that gets a robo before stalker can just be scouted and countered by a reactive stargate into phoenix gateway timing.
Also you only have 1 gateway if they warp-in zealots on the low ground and wait out your 2-3 forcefields they just break your ramp and kill you.
If they choose to high ground warp-in it comes before your immortal is out. And since your robo is easily scouted he could just as well warp-in zealots first. Now you have zealot sentry stalker immortal against 4 zealots and a stalker and he can reinforce much faster than you.
I find that it's only an extreme minority of players that actually leave the scout probe in your base when the zealot is out. Most players do not want to deal with the headache of microing the probe around to dodge the zealot for minutes.
I also think it's important to try and figure out how to beat stargate builds despite opening robo. If you can't and have to rely on your opponent not scouting your tech path, you're just playing rock paper scissors with your opponent every game. (Blink beats stargate beats robo beats blink)
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http://www.twitch.tv/alej691/b/299074003
here's 2 vods from my stream.. i forgot that i left the mic on so you can hear some arrested development and my roommate in the background lol
go to ~11 mins for the first and ~59 mins for the 2nd
the games are in part 2 of the vod.
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I've been doing build for a while and am glad someone else shared it. I find it's a very solid opening that can handle anything in PvP. I don't necessarily open 11 gate with the intent of proxy-pylon'ing my opponent, but I do this if the opportunity is open (which it often is). If not, the 11 gate opening is still a really good opener with lots of transitions.
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On November 03 2011 17:51 Xequecal wrote: IMHO, this build is not that good, as there are 1 gate robo builds that can hold even this. This is what I do in PvP:
9 pylon 11 boost nexus 12 gate, scout 13 boost nexus 15 gas 16 pylon core when gate finishes (cut probes for ~3-5sec so you can place core immediately when gate finishes) 17/18 2nd gas (Get it as soon as you can without stopping probe production, should be right around the 17->18 supply mark) Start zealot when you have 100 minerals (core will be 45% finished) Cut probes at 19 probes (21/26 supply with zealot under construction) Start warpgates when core finishes, 3 CB on warpgates Robo when you have 200 minerals Start stalker at 125 minerals 20th probe with next 50 minerals Pylon with next 100 minerals Start sentry when stalker finishes Immortal when robo finishes, should have 250 minerals at almost the same time, CB Immortal twice. Make 21st and 22nd probe as soon as minerals are available
The Immortal will pop out at 5:30 with this build, easily crushing this rush as well as any 4 gate provided you don't screw up your forcefields. The strat outlined in the OP you can take straight up, zealot/stalker/sentry/immortal easily kills 4 stalkers and a zealot. This also beats 4 gate as long as you FF correctly and split their force down the middle as they try to get up your ramp. You'll finish warpgates and be able to warp in a second sentry before they get their second round of warpins, letting you decimate them again with a FF down the middle.
The only thing you sacrifice with this rush is a small amount of economy as you have to stop at 20 probes for about a minute of game time before you can add the 21st and 22nd probe for 90% saturation.
I have never once been repelled by a 1 gate robo going 11 gate. It's actually really really lopsided if you only have one gate. Heck, I'll go so far as to say if my opponent doesn't have 3 gates or didn't open 2 gate 3 stalker (and micros well), I'm going to win.
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On November 05 2011 04:07 whoopadeedoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 17:51 Xequecal wrote: IMHO, this build is not that good, as there are 1 gate robo builds that can hold even this. This is what I do in PvP:
9 pylon 11 boost nexus 12 gate, scout 13 boost nexus 15 gas 16 pylon core when gate finishes (cut probes for ~3-5sec so you can place core immediately when gate finishes) 17/18 2nd gas (Get it as soon as you can without stopping probe production, should be right around the 17->18 supply mark) Start zealot when you have 100 minerals (core will be 45% finished) Cut probes at 19 probes (21/26 supply with zealot under construction) Start warpgates when core finishes, 3 CB on warpgates Robo when you have 200 minerals Start stalker at 125 minerals 20th probe with next 50 minerals Pylon with next 100 minerals Start sentry when stalker finishes Immortal when robo finishes, should have 250 minerals at almost the same time, CB Immortal twice. Make 21st and 22nd probe as soon as minerals are available
The Immortal will pop out at 5:30 with this build, easily crushing this rush as well as any 4 gate provided you don't screw up your forcefields. The strat outlined in the OP you can take straight up, zealot/stalker/sentry/immortal easily kills 4 stalkers and a zealot. This also beats 4 gate as long as you FF correctly and split their force down the middle as they try to get up your ramp. You'll finish warpgates and be able to warp in a second sentry before they get their second round of warpins, letting you decimate them again with a FF down the middle.
The only thing you sacrifice with this rush is a small amount of economy as you have to stop at 20 probes for about a minute of game time before you can add the 21st and 22nd probe for 90% saturation. I have never once been repelled by a 1 gate robo going 11 gate. It's actually really really lopsided if you only have one gate. Heck, I'll go so far as to say if my opponent doesn't have 3 gates or didn't open 2 gate 3 stalker (and micros well), I'm going to win.
FWIW, your experience with never being repelled by a 1 gate robo opening doesn't mean that 1 gate robo can't soundly defend the 3 gate pressure.
However, I do not think that 1 gate robo can consistently gain an advantage against 3 gate pressure. Although 1 gate robo has tech slightly faster, and also gets the second gas more quickly, it will end up behind in probes against this style of 3 gate pressure. After being forced to make a sentry, I doubt that 1 gate robo can consistently come out ahead in gas, either.
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Yeah, I recognize someone with baller micro and perfect timing might fare better than my opponents (i hover around top 25 masters every season, so not great but not shabby). But in all my 11 gate v 1 gate robo matches, it's been extremely lopsided. I simply don't see how 1 gate with one immortal can ever hold 4 zealots and a stalker plus 3 more units (stalkers or zealots) 30s later. The math doesn't make sense. For 1 gate robo to work, I would have to go 1z4s (which I obviously wouldn't do seeing what I'm up against).
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I find myself losing a lot to proxy 2 gate lately, but I guess there isn't really any way to deal with that with the later scout. I'm just taking them as auto-losses but it's ok since pretty much every other game is an easy win with this build.
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alej, I really do love this build. I've only been able to hit the 5:22 mark once, but its improved my mechanics by a whole lot. I've also been trying to get a faster 2nd gas up as both a fakeout then mine 2-1 instead of only 3 on 1 gas, for more income. I'm not sure if it's effective enough, but it does seem to throw people off.
edit: and LOL at your rewards showcase: dodge a heat seeker missle
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Nice guide thanks, but are there any hard 4 gate replays available versus this? Is the answer just warp ins at your ramp with maybe 2 sentries?
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On November 08 2011 21:01 Xahhk wrote: Nice guide thanks, but are there any hard 4 gate replays available versus this? Is the answer just warp ins at your ramp with maybe 2 sentries? Warp in the 3 stalkers offensively and the 3 zealots defensively. you force a defensive stalker warp-in 100% but you can't guarantee they will warp in their zealots defensively, followed by 1-2 sentries (you put guys on 2nd gas after making the 3 zealots)
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Hi Alej, I like your guides on TL but I notice you don't have any for PvZ you should make one next!
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On November 09 2011 07:31 Blastois3 wrote: Hi Alej, I like your guides on TL but I notice you don't have any for PvZ you should make one next! PvZ is too hard! :D
I was thinking of doing a guide based on what I've been watching on killer's and hero's streams but I've been really busy lately. I will probably get to it eventually though
Most of it is pretty common stuff now, ffe/15nex -> +1 4 WG zealot pushes into warp prism, or the same opening can go straight into 1 SG phoenix play or even 2 SG play. If I do a guide on this it will take a while because there's a lot of stuff you can do off of the basic opening and a lot of stuff you have to react to
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this might sound like a stupid question - but is there anyway to turn this build into a really quick defensive 3 gate to take an early expo?
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On November 09 2011 20:53 UmUmCookies wrote: this might sound like a stupid question - but is there anyway to turn this build into a really quick defensive 3 gate to take an early expo? This defeats the whole purpose of the build, you're not expanding behind pressure so when your expo gets scouted the other toss just has to move out and kill you it also isn't economically sound since you're rushing for a really fast warpgate research that isn't utilizing a timing window or anything of that sort. Basically a standard 4 gate would just kill you or even a delayed defensive 3 gate attack since they have a better economy to back up their push and a bigger army since your push never happened.
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hi alej, i like this guide, and i also like your choice of music in the last link (the twitch.tv vod)
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Hi , i played this Build yesterday in the Playhem Daily cup against Axslav. He just pulled probes to kill my Pylons in the first game and in the third he had a Sentry + 2 Stalkers to block the ramp. Dunno what i did wrong.
Probe Pull Replay http://replayfu.com/download/P33D5m
Cant Upload the Sentry Replay
Here i killed him with this Build http://replayfu.com/r/6MmL9k
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Well the pure genius thing about the build is, that you don't need to do damage if he overreacts like pulling probes you can just macro up.
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A friend recommended this build to me and I'm 4-0 PvP with it so far (then again I'm only plat). I even stopped a proxy 3gate + cannon rush (yes, both at the same time) with it last night. Hero stalker had 17 kills, the other one had 7. Pretty neat feeling. Thanks for the guide!
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On November 10 2011 18:42 tarrantius wrote:Hi , i played this Build yesterday in the Playhem Daily cup against Axslav. He just pulled probes to kill my Pylons in the first game and in the third he had a Sentry + 2 Stalkers to block the ramp. Dunno what i did wrong. Probe Pull Replay http://replayfu.com/download/P33D5mCant Upload the Sentry Replay Here i killed him with this Build http://replayfu.com/r/6MmL9k
watching the first replay now on metal get the pylon before the core, you can still afford and you don't have to cut probes for that little bit of time and you got the gas before the stalker, which I kind of get since his probe was in your base but I still recommend getting the stalker first because it force you to cut probes even longer timing on the core wasn't that bad at all. get an inbase pylon on 24; i've also thought about proxyin this one, but if you do proxy it, put it in a VERY SAFE location that he wouldn't see if he just went for a counter. And on 2nd look it looks like you didn't even make that pylon. this pylon is very important!!
Your approach at the ramp comes about 10 seconds late, which is a pretty big deal since he's able to get the 2nd stalker out before you get to the ramp and start warping in. I don't know if you can get a pylon above the ramp if he's already got 2 stalkers out unless he's not really paying attention. if you got that warpin you probably would have been able to get really far ahead, but that's that for ya tt
I recommend getting the robo first as a follow up to this build as information is more important than prepping for a 2nd attack with blink or getting blink to defend, as an immortal is much better at defense vs blink all in that having your own blink
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Russian Federation676 Posts
nice guige, but "practise practise practise" you say.. the other guy sees super early core and lots of chrono on nexus, goes 2 stalker rush and ur practise goes to nothing hehe
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Would you recommend this build as a 'standard' PvP opener?
If they 4 gate, then assuming perfect execution this should win.
If they do defensive builds, then either they are too defensive (in which case u get map control, but perhaps you are a probe or two behind) and if they are too risky (e.g. fast tech builds), then will straight up die.
Therefore the only weakness is in the case of being a little behind on probe count (say 1-2probes) compared to other defensive builds?
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On November 22 2011 13:41 bankai wrote: Would you recommend this build as a 'standard' PvP opener?
If they 4 gate, then assuming perfect execution this should win.
If they do defensive builds, then either they are too defensive (in which case u get map control, but perhaps you are a probe or two behind) and if they are too risky (e.g. fast tech builds), then will straight up die.
Therefore the only weakness is in the case of being a little behind on probe count (say 1-2probes) compared to other defensive builds?
I wouldn't consider it a super standard build just because your probe scouting to check for gw proxies with your 11 scout can sometimes take so long that your core will go up closer to a 12gate timing, such as on xel'naga or shakuras. It's definitely not as hardy as a 12 gate in those situations. I would not say that it wins straight up against a 4gate with perfect execution, but it should allow you to beat if if they don't sneak a probe above your ramp and are able to warp directly into your base.
I definitely use it as a standard opener because it is pretty much an auto-win against any kind of greedy build and sets me up nicely against non-greedy builds.
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On November 22 2011 13:48 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 13:41 bankai wrote: Would you recommend this build as a 'standard' PvP opener?
If they 4 gate, then assuming perfect execution this should win.
If they do defensive builds, then either they are too defensive (in which case u get map control, but perhaps you are a probe or two behind) and if they are too risky (e.g. fast tech builds), then will straight up die.
Therefore the only weakness is in the case of being a little behind on probe count (say 1-2probes) compared to other defensive builds? I wouldn't consider it a super standard build just because your probe scouting to check for gw proxies with your 11 scout can sometimes take so long that your core will go up closer to a 12gate timing, such as on xel'naga or shakuras. It's definitely not as hardy as a 12 gate in those situations. I would not say that it wins straight up against a 4gate with perfect execution, but it should allow you to beat if if they don't sneak a probe above your ramp and are able to warp directly into your base. I definitely use it as a standard opener because it is pretty much an auto-win against any kind of greedy build and sets me up nicely against non-greedy builds.
Cool, thanks for that! Time to start my 30 practices of this build then
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Here are some replays of defending 2 gate proxies using this build
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16031
This one is on antigua. Always place your first pylon to scout for cannon rush, of course. But also always scout through the middle first or you'll lose to this kind of thing immediately.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16030
This one is on xel'naga. I've been able to use the 11g build by using my gateway or 2nd pylon or 1st gas probe to scout for in base proxies as well as checking the nat and behind the smoke before returning it to mine before actually scouting on 15.
edit: added reps to op
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On November 24 2011 13:08 Alejandrisha wrote:Here are some replays of defending 2 gate proxies using this build http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16030This one is on antigua. Always place your first pylon to scout for cannon rush, of course. But also always scout through the middle first or you'll lose to this kind of thing immediately. http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16030This one is on xel'naga. I've been able to use the 11g build by using my gateway or 2nd pylon or 1st gas probe to scout for in base proxies as well as checking the nat and behind the smoke before returning it to mine before actually scouting on 15. edit: added reps to op
i think both replays are the same
So is it possible then to just use the probe that builds the 11th Gateway to scout and still reach all the target timings? If you use the probe to scout around the base and natural, is there much time for it to return to mining and instead just send it off to scout the opponent?
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oops! will fix in a min and update info
edit: fixed the replay links thanks for letting me know so quickly. The probe gets 20+ mins when it returns which helps soften the blow of scouting for proxies. using your gw probe to do it is safest as you definitely won't have started your core. Do that on xel'naga and shak as the proxy spots are closer. on antigua you can afford to do it later since the middle of the map is far enough away.
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On November 24 2011 14:05 Alejandrisha wrote: oops! will fix in a min and update info
edit: fixed the replay links thanks for letting me know so quickly. The probe gets 20+ mins when it returns which helps soften the blow of scouting for proxies. using your gw probe to do it is safest as you definitely won't have started your core. Do that on xel'naga and shak as the proxy spots are closer. on antigua you can afford to do it later since the middle of the map is far enough away.
anytime, the least i can do to help
i watched the replay of the XNC proxy gates...was wondering, maybe im being paranoid, but in that replay the opponent set up the gates in a fairly easy to find location (i.e. just outside your natural) but didnt really hide it. I have played some games where they build proxies a bit further away but in much harder to find places (e.g. behind the 3rd on XNC).
Previously I rely on a 9-pylon scout to 'find' this cos I reach their base early enough to realise there is nothing there and therefore its either a cannon rush or proxy gate (in either case, set up my own forge/cannon).
How would you prevent something like this using this build? Sorry for all the questions, I just feel kinda unsafe by the fact that you dont get to scout their base before a 15-supply scout.
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Hi guys!! I'm having trouble with my timings.
+ Show Spoiler +We make the 1st gate earlier! We make it on 11 at 1:25 as opposed to on 12 at 1:33.
SO the target times are: Mine are: 11 Gate: 1:25_______________1:30 Cyber: 2:31______________2:36 1st warp in: 5:22______________5:35
How can I get that first gate 5 seconds earlier? This is my best time so far
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You're 5 seconds behind on the core but 13 behind on the warp-in. This tells me you aren't getting 5 full chronoboosts on the core. Getting the gate earlier is just a matter of mining efficiently (watch how the pros do it) and building your buildings close to the nexus so your probe can get back to mining as soon as possible.
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1:25 gate might be a little map dependent. On xel'naga it's pretty easy to do it but on antigua it can be kind of tricky. So it is probably just a combination of how well you mine and how the minerals are set up on that particular map
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
I use this build in my every PvP and all i can say is thank you Alejandrisha. . I think i have some ridiculous win percentage. I think the only map where i have some problems is antiga. It feels so huge and its somehow really hard to pull it off efficiently, especially if you scout last. It really shines when you get your timings uber precise! Its almost always over by 6th minute mark, but if it fails you can easily fall back to your base and macro since you have 2 probes less in the worst case scenario. I am high diamond by the way. Even master players falls with ease with this build . Once again, great, fast, fun, brutal build...thanks.
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that is wonderful mesha i am glad i could help!
here's a rep of me using the build and it doesn't go so well on the press. i lose my probe so i have to forget about the rush. but don't worry! it doesn't put you that far behind because of your gas timing.
alejP v zenexyongP
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Canada13372 Posts
I had a terrible PvP. Started using this build over the last 2 days and as I've gotten better at executing it I've seen my 75% loss rate jump up to nearly 50% win rate. I've had to deal with losing my probe but I've learned that I can get to the ramp so early and will have so many more units when wg is done that I can walk the probe over with my zeal/stalker combo in case they get an early stalker. I usually retreat the probe to a watchtower and wait for my zealot to walk it closer and the stalker catches up. As long as I can get the 2 pylons down I am good to go. I learned that one pylon won't cut it since 3 stalkers will kill it before my additional 3 stalkers can warp in.
Thanks for the build alej you have probably helped me more than anyone else in these forums indirectly thanks to your awesome builds.
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Yes huge probs to you alej, I just DLed your latest replays and I will watch them later on, but I have to say that this is by far my favourite opening for PvP as I feel it's very diverse and even though I dont win that many matches outright, I take them on later on with my probe -> tech lead. It transitions so well into pretty much anything you want.
PvP is also one of my worst matchups as I'm very macro oriented as a player and expand almost every game before making more than 1 gateway in my other MUs. This build, as suggested in the op, really helps you learn both macro and micro aspects of the game and improves your play quite abit, so it has actually helped me quite abit in my other matchups aswell!
I just broke into top25 of my masters division at around 850 rating, and while I think I play too little in general to place high, PvP has always been my bane dropping my overall win % by quite abit.
So again, <3s to you for creating this build among other great contributions on the strat forum!
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On December 20 2011 22:55 Kyuki wrote: Yes huge probs to you alej, I just DLed your latest replays and I will watch them later on, but I have to say that this is by far my favourite opening for PvP as I feel it's very diverse and even though I dont win that many matches outright, I take them on later on with my probe -> tech lead. It transitions so well into pretty much anything you want.
PvP is also one of my worst matchups as I'm very macro oriented as a player and expand almost every game before making more than 1 gateway in my other MUs. This build, as suggested in the op, really helps you learn both macro and micro aspects of the game and improves your play quite abit, so it has actually helped me quite abit in my other matchups aswell!
I just broke into top25 of my masters division at around 850 rating, and while I think I play too little in general to place high, PvP has always been my bane dropping my overall win % by quite abit.
So again, <3s to you for creating this build among other great contributions on the strat forum! thanks! though i didn't "create" the build i am happy that i helped you find it! this build really helped me in my pvp as well. for a while, i felt pvp was my best mu,winning close to 90% of my matches just by playing standard and making good reads with good execution. then suddenly people were doing all kinds of crazy phoenix and fe builds and weird immortal/air timings and my win rate fell. this build helped me to punish EVERY SINGLE GREEDY BULLSHIT PHOENIX FE WHATEVER THE FUCK BUILD and transition into standard play on an even or ahead footing. real good shit for my style. gl hf with it!
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Thanks Alejandrisha for the write up! My PvP was abysmal (like ~30% win rate) and was looking for something that would give me the edge against cheesy builds, give some early agression and have a decent transition out of it.
Being a lowly plat player it took a while to finally get the timings down. For the longest time when trying this on the ladder I'd outright lose and have the same (if not worse) win rate when executing this build, but I saw the potential and just stuck with it. It started to finally click about a month or so ago and suddenly I was winning again :D (~70% win rate now). Not to mention I feel my mechanics and micro have improved *A LOT* since practicing this build in tester maps, vs AI, etc.
So for the lower ranked players out there, if you try this build it may feel worse to you for a while and even lose a lot even though you feel you've got the build down mechanically, but eventually you'll get the rhythm of it (particularly how to approach the enemy with your zealot+stalker+proxy pylon probe) and things start clicking.
My biggest hurdle now is playing against players who go early robo (GW->robo->GW) and manage to hold rush. I tend to go blink as soon as I realize it's not a game ender, but unless I can keep up the harass to keep his immortal count down to a manageable number I usually end up too far behind or in a base trade :/.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
Nice replay vs 3Stalker build. It shows that even this build is soft counter to 11Gate even a noob like me can easily pull it off anyway... 11Gate_vs_3Stalker
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So if you scout an 11gate, what's the appropriate reaction? It's all good to build a guide but i'm also interested for the counter
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Doesn't this build auto lose to a proxy double gate? Or even a cannon rush on some maps like xel naga?
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On December 29 2011 11:54 DgSensei wrote: Doesn't this build auto lose to a proxy double gate? Or even a cannon rush on some maps like xel naga? look at op. replays against both of those
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On December 29 2011 11:36 CaM27 wrote:So if you scout an 11gate, what's the appropriate reaction? It's all good to build a guide but i'm also interested for the counter
Anyone?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On December 29 2011 18:50 CaM27 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:36 CaM27 wrote:So if you scout an 11gate, what's the appropriate reaction? It's all good to build a guide but i'm also interested for the counter Anyone? I sometimes loose to 3 stalkers. It is like soft counter build for 11 gate.
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On December 29 2011 19:08 Mesha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 18:50 CaM27 wrote:On December 29 2011 11:36 CaM27 wrote:So if you scout an 11gate, what's the appropriate reaction? It's all good to build a guide but i'm also interested for the counter Anyone? I sometimes loose to 3 stalkers. It is like soft counter build for 11 gate.
Does this mean theres basiclly nothing to counter this? And if it is flawlesly executed you can't do jack about it?
wtf
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On December 29 2011 22:39 CaM27 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 19:08 Mesha wrote:On December 29 2011 18:50 CaM27 wrote:On December 29 2011 11:36 CaM27 wrote:So if you scout an 11gate, what's the appropriate reaction? It's all good to build a guide but i'm also interested for the counter Anyone? I sometimes loose to 3 stalkers. It is like soft counter build for 11 gate. Does this mean theres basiclly nothing to counter this? And if it is flawlesly executed you can't do jack about it? wtf
There is no real "counter" to it with standard openings as far as I know. My ideal response that I try to think of when this happends to me is the following: You do not want to spend CB on WG-tech as you're gonna get yours after him anyways and after the second CB on Probes cut all CB on probes as you will be ahead in economy as well as long as you keep making Probes. Therefor there's only one way left to spend that CB on and that is your Gateway. Just go Zealot-Stalker-Stalker-Sentry/Stalker (depending on how well the defense is going) from your first Gateway and use all CB on it as soon as your Core is done. By doing this you will have more units out than him before his WG-tech finishes. Therefor you just have to snipe the Probe once he comes at you. If he manages to get Pylons up (he should be able to start two of them before the Probe dies) then just pull Probes (4-6 per Pylon) to kill the Pylons whilst your units attacks his units. If his units retreats then attack the Pylons with your units as well. If he executes his build well I think you might not be able to killl off both Pylons in time so just use your 8-10 Probes to help kill his units that are warping in and finish off the Pylons once they're dead. It's probably smart to start your second Assimilator before or during the attack and get Gateways 2 and 3 before teching if you plan on opening Robo, Twilight or Stargate. The reason you want those Gates is I guess someone could just follow it up with a delayed 4 gate and you might have troubles stoping that with just the one Gateway. I'm not sure though but it's better to be safe than sorry.
There might be other ways to deal with it as well if you open up with a 3 Stalker rush but I never go 2 early Gateways so I'm not familiar with how to play it out with that build. I would assume though that you still want to CB out Stalkers and not WG-tech and maybe pull Probes for Pylons as well.
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On December 29 2011 22:39 CaM27 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 19:08 Mesha wrote:On December 29 2011 18:50 CaM27 wrote:On December 29 2011 11:36 CaM27 wrote:So if you scout an 11gate, what's the appropriate reaction? It's all good to build a guide but i'm also interested for the counter Anyone? I sometimes loose to 3 stalkers. It is like soft counter build for 11 gate. Does this mean theres basiclly nothing to counter this? And if it is flawlesly executed you can't do jack about it? wtf
The counter is to delay it. In my experience when it's delayed for even a small while they can defend it
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On December 30 2011 01:26 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 22:39 CaM27 wrote:On December 29 2011 19:08 Mesha wrote:On December 29 2011 18:50 CaM27 wrote:On December 29 2011 11:36 CaM27 wrote:So if you scout an 11gate, what's the appropriate reaction? It's all good to build a guide but i'm also interested for the counter Anyone? I sometimes loose to 3 stalkers. It is like soft counter build for 11 gate. Does this mean theres basiclly nothing to counter this? And if it is flawlesly executed you can't do jack about it? wtf The counter is to delay it. This! It's all about those 10-15 precious seconds.
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How are you supposed to scout for proxy gates? Because if I look at every possible proxy location my Probe can´t often get into their base.
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On January 02 2012 14:30 ShadowDeath wrote: How are you supposed to scout for proxy gates? Because if I look at every possible proxy location my Probe can´t often get into their base. it's very map dependent. on maps where there is a tower in the middle, scout through there first. on shakuras, you need to scout your base and the spot in between your base and the one vertically near it and check both towers to be sure there's no proxy gates. on xel'naga you'd have to check your base and your nat. on temple the gold base nearest you is also a proxy gate hotspot because you can't spot close to them so they can narrow it down to your base and the one that is close spawn to you.
edit: oh and on metal you need to check the 3rd in between you and your close spawn and at the gold nearest you
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Thank ou very much for this build I use it every game in PvP and have only lost three or four so far! (Played around 20)
On December 29 2011 12:07 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:54 DgSensei wrote: Doesn't this build auto lose to a proxy double gate? Or even a cannon rush on some maps like xel naga? look at op. replays against both of those Ermm the replay vs the canon rush is not available for download or something so can you re-upload it please? I have not faced it but I would like to see how to hold it
Ps: if you cannot upload can you please tell me how to hold it off/my response to seeing a pylon go up in my base/outisde it.
Once again this is such as awesome build and you have written it up exceptionally well <3
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Canada13372 Posts
On January 02 2012 14:33 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 14:30 ShadowDeath wrote: How are you supposed to scout for proxy gates? Because if I look at every possible proxy location my Probe can´t often get into their base. it's very map dependent. on maps where there is a tower in the middle, scout through there first. on shakuras, you need to scout your base and the spot in between your base and the one vertically near it and check both towers to be sure there's no proxy gates. on xel'naga you'd have to check your base and your nat. on temple the gold base nearest you is also a proxy gate hotspot because you can't spot close to them so they can narrow it down to your base and the one that is close spawn to you. edit: oh and on metal you need to check the 3rd in between you and your close spawn and at the gold nearest you
I've been scouting the close ground locations on shak ant xel naga on 9 like you in some of your replays and its worked. On metal, its hard to scout earlier than the 14 pylon. Then if I show up at his base and I lose the probe or see a 3 stalker rush I generally have a really hard time winning the game.
Should I be placing the pylons when I see a 3 stalker rush or should I just transition into a different build? Should the third pylon be proxied somewhere in the middle so I can push with 4 stalkers 1 zealot while my 2 pylons at his ramp are warping in?
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On January 04 2012 04:51 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 14:33 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 02 2012 14:30 ShadowDeath wrote: How are you supposed to scout for proxy gates? Because if I look at every possible proxy location my Probe can´t often get into their base. it's very map dependent. on maps where there is a tower in the middle, scout through there first. on shakuras, you need to scout your base and the spot in between your base and the one vertically near it and check both towers to be sure there's no proxy gates. on xel'naga you'd have to check your base and your nat. on temple the gold base nearest you is also a proxy gate hotspot because you can't spot close to them so they can narrow it down to your base and the one that is close spawn to you. edit: oh and on metal you need to check the 3rd in between you and your close spawn and at the gold nearest you I've been scouting the close ground locations on shak ant xel naga on 9 like you in some of your replays and its worked. On metal, its hard to scout earlier than the 14 pylon. Then if I show up at his base and I lose the probe or see a 3 stalker rush I generally have a really hard time winning the game. Should I be placing the pylons when I see a 3 stalker rush or should I just transition into a different build? Should the third pylon be proxied somewhere in the middle so I can push with 4 stalkers 1 zealot while my 2 pylons at his ramp are warping in? against the 3 stalker rush it's safer to steal gas if you can. if you can, don't even bother going through with the rush. if you go for it, and the cb stalkers and not wg, it's going to be really hard even if you hit your timings really well.
on maps where i need to scout for proxies, i've been ditching 11gate for 12gate builds just because you NEED to scout those sometimes and it really slows down your core.
so on shak i've all but stopped doing it. on metal i'll scout the proxy spots on gate then return it to mine, though i think you you might be able to stop it by scouting them on core but it will be tough!
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On January 02 2012 14:30 ShadowDeath wrote: How are you supposed to scout for proxy gates? Because if I look at every possible proxy location my Probe can´t often get into their base.
You don't actually have to scout the proxy gates if they come in with 1-3 zealots early you can hold it blind even if it's in your base. If they wait longer and come in with 5+ zealots I'm not sure I've never gone against it but it seems like it should be harder.
Just get 3-4 stalkers and counter attack and you win with good micro even if you lose all your probes. Be sure not to get warpgate tech that 50 gas is better spent on another stalker.
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On December 29 2011 22:39 CaM27 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 19:08 Mesha wrote:On December 29 2011 18:50 CaM27 wrote:On December 29 2011 11:36 CaM27 wrote:So if you scout an 11gate, what's the appropriate reaction? It's all good to build a guide but i'm also interested for the counter Anyone? I sometimes loose to 3 stalkers. It is like soft counter build for 11 gate. Does this mean theres basiclly nothing to counter this? And if it is flawlesly executed you can't do jack about it? wtf
I've had the most trouble with 4gates that spend all chrono on core and warp-in defensively and then counter attack with a proxy pylon in my base.
The 11gater basically has to build his pylons at your ramp for this build or they won't be ready in time to warp-in so just pull way back in your base and don't engage until your warp-ins or if he's focusing a pylon try to draw fire without losing anything
Here's an example game http://drop.sc/84447.
P.S. if anyone has suggestions on how to play better against that wouldn't mind at all
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Nice write up on this build. I have been having trouble in pvp and this is gonna help alot thanks! :D
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hello sir Thank you for this great guide to the agressive 3 gate that punishes greedy builds. For me personally it is extremely hard to hit your gate timings and therefore my warpintiming is considerably slower than your optimal warp in. Playing against plat players this does not matter so much, but i am still extremely unhappy that i can not drop my gate at 1:25 Please would you be so kind and also explain to me how this is a hard counter to cannon rushes because I face a lot of them and always get destroyed when i am using that build Thank you in advance looking really forward for your PvZ builds!
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On January 05 2012 23:33 blowfish wrote:hello sir Thank you for this great guide to the agressive 3 gate that punishes greedy builds. For me personally it is extremely hard to hit your gate timings and therefore my warpintiming is considerably slower than your optimal warp in. Playing against plat players this does not matter so much, but i am still extremely unhappy that i can not drop my gate at 1:25 Please would you be so kind and also explain to me how this is a hard counter to cannon rushes because I face a lot of them and always get destroyed when i am using that build Thank you in advance looking really forward for your PvZ builds! well, the "hard counter" is a bit of a lie. it will help you get out a faster zealot if you scout it, but you HAVE to scout it. this means placing your 1st pylon and gate on maps where this is possible (metal, antigua come to mind, though I've stopped doing this on antigua) to wall off between your mins or geyser and the lip of your base. this will help give vision of where the pylon will be started (though you can cannon rush so they can't see it with buildings at the edge so you have to scout it at some point regardless) and also make it so the probe has more travel distance to where he would ideally put his scouter buildings. unless he tries to place his buildings outside the mineral line, he will have to travel through your mineral line (meaning you can focus it down potentially). at this point it becomes a game of denying vision up the upper ground. put probes on patrol where the pylons are likely to go down and chrono out that first zealot to focus down any buildings he manages to start on the highground. all the while keeping at least 1 probe on his probe to punish him for making sharp turns.
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Canada13372 Posts
On January 06 2012 14:09 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 23:33 blowfish wrote:hello sir Thank you for this great guide to the agressive 3 gate that punishes greedy builds. For me personally it is extremely hard to hit your gate timings and therefore my warpintiming is considerably slower than your optimal warp in. Playing against plat players this does not matter so much, but i am still extremely unhappy that i can not drop my gate at 1:25 Please would you be so kind and also explain to me how this is a hard counter to cannon rushes because I face a lot of them and always get destroyed when i am using that build Thank you in advance looking really forward for your PvZ builds! well, the "hard counter" is a bit of a lie. it will help you get out a faster zealot if you scout it, but you HAVE to scout it. this means placing your 1st pylon and gate on maps where this is possible (metal, antigua come to mind, though I've stopped doing this on antigua) to wall off between your mins or geyser and the lip of your base. this will help give vision of where the pylon will be started (though you can cannon rush so they can't see it with buildings at the edge so you have to scout it at some point regardless) and also make it so the probe has more travel distance to where he would ideally put his scouter buildings. unless he tries to place his buildings outside the mineral line, he will have to travel through your mineral line (meaning you can focus it down potentially). at this point it becomes a game of denying vision up the upper ground. put probes on patrol where the pylons are likely to go down and chrono out that first zealot to focus down any buildings he manages to start on the highground. all the while keeping at least 1 probe on his probe to punish him for making sharp turns.
Can you update OP to reflect maps this is good/bad on in your opinion? Entombed is huge and antiga similarly is really hard to have this work on. Its great if you scout first this works but if you scout last and they went for something like 3 stalker then you can't really pressure, you are behind in tech if they went 2 gate - tech - 3rd gate.
I can see 11gate being pretty good on forced cross position antiga though, and its good on xel as well as metal. The only huge issue with metal are the two potential proxy locations.
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On January 06 2012 14:17 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 14:09 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 05 2012 23:33 blowfish wrote:hello sir Thank you for this great guide to the agressive 3 gate that punishes greedy builds. For me personally it is extremely hard to hit your gate timings and therefore my warpintiming is considerably slower than your optimal warp in. Playing against plat players this does not matter so much, but i am still extremely unhappy that i can not drop my gate at 1:25 Please would you be so kind and also explain to me how this is a hard counter to cannon rushes because I face a lot of them and always get destroyed when i am using that build Thank you in advance looking really forward for your PvZ builds! well, the "hard counter" is a bit of a lie. it will help you get out a faster zealot if you scout it, but you HAVE to scout it. this means placing your 1st pylon and gate on maps where this is possible (metal, antigua come to mind, though I've stopped doing this on antigua) to wall off between your mins or geyser and the lip of your base. this will help give vision of where the pylon will be started (though you can cannon rush so they can't see it with buildings at the edge so you have to scout it at some point regardless) and also make it so the probe has more travel distance to where he would ideally put his scouter buildings. unless he tries to place his buildings outside the mineral line, he will have to travel through your mineral line (meaning you can focus it down potentially). at this point it becomes a game of denying vision up the upper ground. put probes on patrol where the pylons are likely to go down and chrono out that first zealot to focus down any buildings he manages to start on the highground. all the while keeping at least 1 probe on his probe to punish him for making sharp turns. Can you update OP to reflect maps this is good/bad on in your opinion? Entombed is huge and antiga similarly is really hard to have this work on. Its great if you scout first this works but if you scout last and they went for something like 3 stalker then you can't really pressure, you are behind in tech if they went 2 gate - tech - 3rd gate. I can see 11gate being pretty good on forced cross position antiga though, and its good on xel as well as metal. The only huge issue with metal are the two potential proxy locations.
will do.
edit: done! A word on maps + Show Spoiler +I don't recommend using this on maps that have significantly far away proxy locations that you really need to scout before 15 food to be safe. I also advise against using this on maps that have a secondary ramp at the natural, as your opponent can set up a defensive position there and you HAVE to go through one specific zone in order to get to the ramp. That being said...
Maps that are good for this:
Metal
you can scout your natural 3rd base and the gold in time with your 15th probe, and scout for cannons with good building placement and perhaps a small deviation from the natural scouting pattern by your nat just to be safe)
Xel'naga
You can spot cannon rush with your building placement. I prefer to scout my base for in base proxy on twelve then send the probe back to mine. Just scout your nat and behind the grass on 15 and take the farther path from your nat to the tower to scout for proxy gates there).
Shattered
You can scout your gold and through the tower for proxy gates on 15 safely. doesn't hurt to send your gateway probe to the edge to check for cannons, though no one has done this since piqliq was still playing..
Maps that are not as good for this:
Antigua
2ndary ramp, though you can still do it if you're very careful with your approach as you should get up the 2ndary ramp before a 2nd stalker is out vs 1 gate openings. Make sure you scout cross spawn first to check the tower and consider checking your 3rd as well, though this is very uncommon. Always spot for cannon rush with your initial pylon + gateway)
Entombed
See Antigua
Maps that are bad for this:
Shakuras Need to scout whole base + in between your nat and close spawn nat and your tower to check for proxy/cannon rush, and has a 2ndary ramp
TDA
No ramp so you can't hold a counter with ff's unless you over-invest in sentries, at which point your transition is late and therefore tremendously weaker)
**I'm not quite sure about arid. I don't play it so much. I'll give it a shot though.. no secondary ramp so that's good. 2 spawn locations which means proxies will be slightly more common. Ideal spots for the proxy would be in base or slightly beyond your nat. I'd scout for in-base on gateway then the nat on 15
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thank you for the quick and helpful response!
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I've noticed that sometimes my opponent has enough zealots to deflect my intial poke by the time I scout them. Is this because of bad micro on my part (could i out-micro them and still place my pylons?) or does it just happen and I need to regroup in my base?
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On January 08 2012 18:34 Tobias wrote: I've noticed that sometimes my opponent has enough zealots to deflect my intial poke by the time I scout them. Is this because of bad micro on my part (could i out-micro them and still place my pylons?) or does it just happen and I need to regroup in my base? zealots deflect the initial poke how? Please attach a replay of this. don't need to fight 2 zealots with your zealot. just make sure you get a pylon down on the low ground, shift right click on his mineral patch to mineral walk up the ramp and then place a pylon as soon as you get to the top. if he's denying it by focusing down the pylons, make sure you retain your zealot so you can focus down whatever is attacking the pylons. all the while maintaining near constant cb. no one said this was going to be easy :D
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None of the replays from replayfu work
They all say "no data to parse"
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Why do you make an inbase pylon at 24?
I wish i could delete, this post. I don't know why I didn't just edit my last one.
Anyways, Also, your vod commentating of replays if fucking gold. Learned alot of shit from that shit. You are pretty fucking hilarious also.
"he sees my 8 stalkers and my giant e-penis, and he's gonna make sentries."
Fucking great.
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On January 09 2012 14:02 Easytouch1500 wrote: Why do you make an inbase pylon at 24?
i suppose you could make a safe proxy at 24. i'm not sure why or why not. i haven't messed around with this too much. on the press you really don't want to warp into a safe location as that pretty much means it's not going to work. could be a proxy for later, i suppose
edit: all of my replays will be from drop.sc from now on. sorry about that. replay.fu failed me
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On January 06 2012 18:11 Alejandrisha wrote: Heavily edited by Trusty
Metal and scout for cannons with good building placement
Xel'naga You can spot cannon rush with your building placement.
Antigua Always spot for cannon rush with your initial pylon + gateway)
Hi Alej,
Several times in this post you refer to Building Placement for scouting cannon rush on maps like Metal/Antiga/XnC. Could you be more specific? Metal/Antiga: Just putting it near the ledge? XNC: Just putting pylons behind your mineral line?
I really struggle a lot with Cannon rush on Metal and Antiga.
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on metal you want to get the most vision possible with your pylon. with your gate you want to seal off the space between mins and the side of your base so the probe can't zip through for vision/building
+ Show Spoiler +
this is the tricky one: + Show Spoiler +
this pylon sees the cannon rushes that kill you when you put your pylon farther to the left.
for the 9 oclock spawn, you will probably have to run your probe through there regardless just because there's so much area.
for antigua, you can wall the space between the geyser and the side of your base with a pylon in every position while getting good vision where the cannon rush would come from. however, many people will start the first pylon out of sight of even these pylons, so I recommend scouting with a probe anyway. + Show Spoiler +
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Wow thanks so much man Pictures and everything!
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np ^^ just be careful with that 3 o clock on metal. that spawn is totally imba for getting cannon rushed!
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On January 09 2012 03:28 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 18:34 Tobias wrote: I've noticed that sometimes my opponent has enough zealots to deflect my intial poke by the time I scout them. Is this because of bad micro on my part (could i out-micro them and still place my pylons?) or does it just happen and I need to regroup in my base? zealots deflect the initial poke how? Please attach a replay of this. don't need to fight 2 zealots with your zealot. just make sure you get a pylon down on the low ground, shift right click on his mineral patch to mineral walk up the ramp and then place a pylon as soon as you get to the top. if he's denying it by focusing down the pylons, make sure you retain your zealot so you can focus down whatever is attacking the pylons. all the while maintaining near constant cb. no one said this was going to be easy :D
I'm at work, so I don't have access to any replays right now. If they're going for cheese they can have 4-5 zealots out by the time I scout them, in which case it's close to impossible to get any pylons up. Of course this puts me way ahead since my WG is done very quickly, but I feel I have to pull back and warp in defensively (and get up detection) when it happens. Can you always get up your pylons in/next to his base, or are there cheese-builds that mean you can't?
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On January 10 2012 22:40 Tobias wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:28 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 08 2012 18:34 Tobias wrote: I've noticed that sometimes my opponent has enough zealots to deflect my intial poke by the time I scout them. Is this because of bad micro on my part (could i out-micro them and still place my pylons?) or does it just happen and I need to regroup in my base? zealots deflect the initial poke how? Please attach a replay of this. don't need to fight 2 zealots with your zealot. just make sure you get a pylon down on the low ground, shift right click on his mineral patch to mineral walk up the ramp and then place a pylon as soon as you get to the top. if he's denying it by focusing down the pylons, make sure you retain your zealot so you can focus down whatever is attacking the pylons. all the while maintaining near constant cb. no one said this was going to be easy :D I'm at work, so I don't have access to any replays right now. If they're going for cheese they can have 4-5 zealots out by the time I scout them, in which case it's close to impossible to get any pylons up. Of course this puts me way ahead since my WG is done very quickly, but I feel I have to pull back and warp in defensively (and get up detection) when it happens. Can you always get up your pylons in/next to his base, or are there cheese-builds that mean you can't?
If they have something like 4-5 zealots when you poke they most likely went early two gates. Your main focus should be deflecting the cheese and try to sneak in a proxy somewhere near them so you can warp in after you have defended. You should be way ahead on wg/tech.
If they are somehow just sitting with 4-5 zealots w/out cheesing you can warp in on the low ground, just plant proxies below or somewhere close to the ramp.Since they probably delayed their core/gas your stalkers should handle them. By the time you get there I'm not sure if there is a bo that can get 4-5 zealots while not having tech delayed at all. I assume your nervous about DTs since you mention detection. They are not going to have enough gas to warp in the sentries necessary to keep you out so you don't need a proxy on the top. Stalkers should just clean up the zealots then just kill the shrine before it warps in. I faced a DT build once while using this and it was an easy win.
Edit: Also Alej mentioned this before but be careful with your poke up the ramp, if your probe takes a zealot shot run down and plant on the low ground.
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On January 10 2012 23:36 Wrath98 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:40 Tobias wrote:On January 09 2012 03:28 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 08 2012 18:34 Tobias wrote: I've noticed that sometimes my opponent has enough zealots to deflect my intial poke by the time I scout them. Is this because of bad micro on my part (could i out-micro them and still place my pylons?) or does it just happen and I need to regroup in my base? zealots deflect the initial poke how? Please attach a replay of this. don't need to fight 2 zealots with your zealot. just make sure you get a pylon down on the low ground, shift right click on his mineral patch to mineral walk up the ramp and then place a pylon as soon as you get to the top. if he's denying it by focusing down the pylons, make sure you retain your zealot so you can focus down whatever is attacking the pylons. all the while maintaining near constant cb. no one said this was going to be easy :D I'm at work, so I don't have access to any replays right now. If they're going for cheese they can have 4-5 zealots out by the time I scout them, in which case it's close to impossible to get any pylons up. Of course this puts me way ahead since my WG is done very quickly, but I feel I have to pull back and warp in defensively (and get up detection) when it happens. Can you always get up your pylons in/next to his base, or are there cheese-builds that mean you can't? If they have something like 4-5 zealots when you poke they most likely went early two gates. Your main focus should be deflecting the cheese and try to sneak in a proxy somewhere near them so you can warp in after you have defended. You should be way ahead on wg/tech. If they are somehow just sitting with 4-5 zealots w/out cheesing you can warp in on the low ground, just plant proxies below or somewhere close to the ramp.Since they probably delayed their core/gas your stalkers should handle them. By the time you get there I'm not sure if there is a bo that can get 4-5 zealots while not having tech delayed at all. I assume your nervous about DTs since you mention detection. They are not going to have enough gas to warp in the sentries necessary to keep you out so you don't need a proxy on the top. Stalkers should just clean up the zealots then just kill the shrine before it warps in. I faced a DT build once while using this and it was an easy win. Edit: Also Alej mentioned this before but be careful with your poke up the ramp, if your probe takes a zealot shot run down and plant on the low ground.
Thanks I tend to scare a bit easily and run all the way back instead of pulling back a little and dropping a proxy And yes, early two gates are usually what they have, sometimes three (even though I have _no_ idea why) which means their core is delayed for a bit at least.
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On January 09 2012 13:08 Easytouch1500 wrote:None of the replays from replayfu work They all say "no data to parse"
this!
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On January 10 2012 22:40 Tobias wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:28 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 08 2012 18:34 Tobias wrote: I've noticed that sometimes my opponent has enough zealots to deflect my intial poke by the time I scout them. Is this because of bad micro on my part (could i out-micro them and still place my pylons?) or does it just happen and I need to regroup in my base? zealots deflect the initial poke how? Please attach a replay of this. don't need to fight 2 zealots with your zealot. just make sure you get a pylon down on the low ground, shift right click on his mineral patch to mineral walk up the ramp and then place a pylon as soon as you get to the top. if he's denying it by focusing down the pylons, make sure you retain your zealot so you can focus down whatever is attacking the pylons. all the while maintaining near constant cb. no one said this was going to be easy :D I'm at work, so I don't have access to any replays right now. If they're going for cheese they can have 4-5 zealots out by the time I scout them, in which case it's close to impossible to get any pylons up. Of course this puts me way ahead since my WG is done very quickly, but I feel I have to pull back and warp in defensively (and get up detection) when it happens. Can you always get up your pylons in/next to his base, or are there cheese-builds that mean you can't?
You are not meant to post with a message starting with what you said. "I'm at work, so I don't have access to any replays right now." In the purge thread, it clearly stated that you do NOT post unless you have watched the replays so you can give a detailed constructive post.
Now my post is that like the OP said, there is still real trouble holding this on the 3oClock position. It's also very common on PvP on ladder on this map. Feels like if you spawn in the 3o'Clock in PvP it's almost a guaranteed loss to someone who knows this build. If anyone knows how to stop it on this position, do post!
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On January 11 2012 19:53 ODKStevez wrote: You are not meant to post with a message starting with what you said. "I'm at work, so I don't have access to any replays right now." In the purge thread, it clearly stated that you do NOT post unless you have watched the replays so you can give a detailed constructive post.
I'm talking about me not having access to any replays to post, which would've been obvious if you'd actually expanded the quotes of our entire discussion.
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if they are 2gating in their base you are pretty damn safe.. if they really delayed their gas that late no need to even do the pressure because you will get ahead just by having gas O_O
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Could you describe the process you use to come up with these builds? Is it purely experimentation, or do you use any tools to help you?
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On January 12 2012 03:17 TheExodus wrote: Could you describe the process you use to come up with these builds? Is it purely experimentation, or do you use any tools to help you? i ripped this one from one of Oz's gsl games and then just kind of intuited through the follow ups with what he gave me. the link is in the op but unfortunately you'd need the pass for that season to get it
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But you seem to be spitting out innovative builds faster than a roach, do they all come from replays and vods?
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On January 12 2012 03:30 TheExodus wrote: But you seem to be spitting out innovative builds faster than a roach, do they all come from replays and vods?
the builds in that other thread all have their roots in 1 game i watched of nani at mlg (see the credits section in op). even though he didn't end up showing the 4gate defense, i could intuit what he would have done based on his cb energy, and the fact that he did it blindly tells me it's safe against gw pressure (at least on antigua, the map on which the game was played). thus i had confidence that if i did enough work it would eventually all come together.
the key pieces to the puzzle were the reactionary 4th chronoboost on WG tech, and the 5:58 chronoboost on the gateway to ensure a timely 3rd sentry. these took some work to figure out.
the sg build was the only stretch, as you have 50 more gas sunk into tech at 32 food. however, by tweaking the build slightly and getting the 2nd gas just a smidge faster, you have exactly 100 gas when you're ready to train your 1st sentry. That was kind of just luck hehe.
the 3 2gate variations in the thread are simply manipulations that allow a player that can't get the gas timings to line up correctly with the 1 gate builds to still get the 4gate defense from the opening, and also have a relatively quick tech option.
he is the real innovator. he just doesn't post in the strat section :D
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do this since i saw oz game... win nearly every pvp i dont f up. get insulted pretty hard. laugh my ass off. very nice build all credits to Oz and the OP. nais write up
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best pvp build, for the life of me I don't know why this isn't used so much more
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I have been using this build for about two weeks now, and I just wanted to say thank you. Having so much fun with this build You're the best Alej!
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Thanks or the guide Alej! It's a great build, absolutely destroys protoss who don't scout/play greedy.
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On January 12 2012 04:43 Mattchew wrote: best pvp build, for the life of me I don't know why this isn't used so much more the koreans in hsc were doing some 11 gate builds but they were just like derping on the core timings and not doing it for a rush which is beyond me. imo if you cut the first cb you might as well do something with the faster gate. if only mc had english to explain past "map imba" and "bling good" to break it down for us TT
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Awesome guide! I will experiment some with the timings of this build as this has a lot of potential!
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Uploaded to Liquipedia, using a mixture of your wording and my own. Tinman on LP
Edit as necessary.
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Do you have any replays of this versus standard PvP builds these days (ones that you listed in your RIP 4-gate post would be nice.)
I tried watching the one versus 3s -> robo but the replay is down.
Thanks!
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On January 13 2012 01:03 Melonator wrote: Do you have any replays of this versus standard PvP builds these days (ones that you listed in your RIP 4-gate post would be nice.)
I tried watching the one versus 3s -> robo but the replay is down.
Thanks! i will try to locate those replays locally and get them up on drop.sc
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On January 12 2012 22:36 Surili wrote:Uploaded to Liquipedia, using a mixture of your wording and my own. Tinman on LPEdit as necessary. thank you! edited it a little; had to get rid of the first cb on nexus and make a tweak or two
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Dunno what took me so long to find something like this but I'll it the second I get home and will probably end up thanking you anyways so here it is in advance. My PvP win rate is so bad that I don't even remember the last time i won (not exaggerating). Thank you so much for this and seeing as I'm a plat player I'll do 20 runs on yacob before I even try to do it on ladder. Thanks
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On January 14 2012 01:06 quickclickz wrote: Dunno what took me so long to find something like this but I'll it the second I get home and will probably end up thanking you anyways so here it is in advance. My PvP win rate is so bad that I don't even remember the last time i won (not exaggerating). Thank you so much for this and seeing as I'm a plat player I'll do 20 runs on yacob before I even try to do it on ladder. Thanks
Sorry to break it to you, but this build doesn't really work as good as it used to. Sure it can be used for the occasional cheesy win, but it wont raise your winrate exceptionally on the ladder (not if you're nearing master level at least).
edit: Just to make it clear I'm not just talking trash. This used to be my gotobuild in PvP for the longest time. I've stopped using it when I realized it had started giving me a lot more losses than wins.
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You can still use this build but it's much more map specific imo. For example, on a 4-player map with a secondary ramp like Antiga, it's pretty difficult to pull off. One of the huge advantages of this build is if you get your gas stolen its almost a free win by just adding a 4-gate and going all-in.
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Just wanted to point this out from the other of Alej's PvP threads. If someone here has this rush down, give him a hand seeing whether this walks over one of his newer tech builds or not.
On January 11 2012 01:08 Alejandrisha wrote:I'm opening this one up to you guys. If you think your 4gate is good, shoot me a pm and I'd be happy to stamp it out with this build :D And your replays will go right here! Also if you have the the 11gate into 3 gate pressure build down pretty well, I'd like to run this against that a bunch of times as well.
from: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117
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I've been trying this for my last few PvP's; having no luck. I don't think I'm good enough to pull it off. The timings are pretty razor-thin, and the micro really demanding. When he says mechanically rigorous, he means it.
Also, with some updates to the map pool and more maps with secondary ramps, I think this is a lot more situational than it used to be.
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On January 14 2012 17:10 GoStu wrote: I've been trying this for my last few PvP's; having no luck. I don't think I'm good enough to pull it off. The timings are pretty razor-thin, and the micro really demanding. When he says mechanically rigorous, he means it.
Also, with some updates to the map pool and more maps with secondary ramps, I think this is a lot more situational than it used to be.
Yeah, its not completely unviable, but its more of a cheese than anything else. Of course, it doesn't hurt to have HuK's micro abilities. but even then you'll end up in situations where your opponent has gotten sentries out and can just keep blocking the ramp forever.
On January 14 2012 04:12 Treehead wrote:Just wanted to point this out from the other of Alej's PvP threads. If someone here has this rush down, give him a hand seeing whether this walks over one of his newer tech builds or not. Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 01:08 Alejandrisha wrote:I'm opening this one up to you guys. If you think your 4gate is good, shoot me a pm and I'd be happy to stamp it out with this build :D And your replays will go right here! Also if you have the the 11gate into 3 gate pressure build down pretty well, I'd like to run this against that a bunch of times as well. from: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117
Would love to but I don't have an NA account right at this moment.
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On January 14 2012 17:10 GoStu wrote: I've been trying this for my last few PvP's; having no luck. I don't think I'm good enough to pull it off. The timings are pretty razor-thin, and the micro really demanding. When he says mechanically rigorous, he means it.
Also, with some updates to the map pool and more maps with secondary ramps, I think this is a lot more situational than it used to be.
The timings are thin but they aren't too hard to approach with practice.
Probably the most important thing is setting some mental triggers for your chronoboosts.
i.e.
gateway -> start probe : chronoboost nexus core finished -> start warpgate : chronoboost core 23 probe -> 2nd gas : chronoboost core 23 2nd gate : chronoboost core -> 3rd gate 24 pylon : chronoboost core start low ground proxy pylon and mineral walk up ramp : chronoboost core -> 2nd proxy pylon
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On January 16 2012 04:15 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 17:10 GoStu wrote: I've been trying this for my last few PvP's; having no luck. I don't think I'm good enough to pull it off. The timings are pretty razor-thin, and the micro really demanding. When he says mechanically rigorous, he means it.
Also, with some updates to the map pool and more maps with secondary ramps, I think this is a lot more situational than it used to be. The timings are thin but they aren't too hard to approach with practice. Probably the most important thing is setting some mental triggers for your chronoboosts. i.e. gateway -> start probe : chronoboost nexus core finished -> start warpgate : chronoboost core 23 probe -> 2nd gas : chronoboost core 23 2nd gate : chronoboost core -> 3rd gate 24 pylon : chronoboost core start low ground proxy pylon and mineral walk up ramp : chronoboost core -> 2nd proxy pylon very true. important enough to add to op ty!
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I really like this build. It beats both 4gate and the latest anti-4-gate builds at my level (high diamond/low master).
If you're having a hard time to nail the build down due to lack of minerals, just skip the second assimilator until after 3 gates. I do that quite often when I feel that my mining isnt perfect.
With this build, I usually only loose to strange cannonrushes or proxygates due to late scouting. So annoying.
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Canada13372 Posts
On February 07 2012 00:26 Swap wrote: I really like this build. It beats both 4gate and the latest anti-4-gate builds at my level (high diamond/low master).
If you're having a hard time to nail the build down due to lack of minerals, just skip the second assimilator until after 3 gates. I do that quite often when I feel that my mining isnt perfect.
With this build, I usually only loose to strange cannonrushes or proxygates due to late scouting. So annoying.
Im about the same level and I can't outright win vs a 4 gate. If they went mad chrono on the cybercore then they can warp in some 20 seconds after I do and they at that point can outproduce me.
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I'm a higher plat protoss who just switched from zerg, and this build has saved my PvP match-up, even though I don't execute it perfectly. I probably have an 80% PvP win ratio with this build, and I think that it's helping my mechanics a lot.
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I'm still having pretty decent success with this build, 60% winrate in the last 2 weeks against mostly mid masters. Most of the losses are due to poor scouting of a proxy-gateway rush or a cannon rush. I usually feel impervious to cannon rushes because of how quickly you can cb a zealot. Losses come when I fail to scout the first cannon before it completes. Everything else you can punish pretty hard. I've had people try to gas steal my a decent amount recently and I usually just use those minerals on a 4th gate and all-in them, since they just wasted the minerals to gas steal.
I still don't have a favourite tech follow-up though, and I have tried everything. I think I've had the most success with 4 gate blink behind this trying to kill based on the advantage that I get from the probe kills on the pressure. I find that if I go 3 gate blink robo I give them too long to catch back up from any damage I might have inflicted, while not having enough to attempt a kill move if they are still turtling in their base with immortals.
Does anybody have a really solid idea of how to secondary scout on this build and then which tech path they like the most? I did try to do chargelot archon for a while based on how many people go Robo to try to be safe after the pressure, but it backfires when they get an obs out and scout. They just get a building choke started in from of their natural expand and it becomes incredibly difficult to win.
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On March 02 2012 10:25 jestlolk wrote: I'm still having pretty decent success with this build, 60% winrate in the last 2 weeks against mostly mid masters. Most of the losses are due to poor scouting of a proxy-gateway rush or a cannon rush. I usually feel impervious to cannon rushes because of how quickly you can cb a zealot. Losses come when I fail to scout the first cannon before it completes. Everything else you can punish pretty hard. I've had people try to gas steal my a decent amount recently and I usually just use those minerals on a 4th gate and all-in them, since they just wasted the minerals to gas steal.
I still don't have a favourite tech follow-up though, and I have tried everything. I think I've had the most success with 4 gate blink behind this trying to kill based on the advantage that I get from the probe kills on the pressure. I find that if I go 3 gate blink robo I give them too long to catch back up from any damage I might have inflicted, while not having enough to attempt a kill move if they are still turtling in their base with immortals.
Does anybody have a really solid idea of how to secondary scout on this build and then which tech path they like the most? I did try to do chargelot archon for a while based on how many people go Robo to try to be safe after the pressure, but it backfires when they get an obs out and scout. They just get a building choke started in from of their natural expand and it becomes incredibly difficult to win. i personally like to follow up with robo and just play extremely safe. this might not be the best course of action, though. assuming you use your early unit advantage to get a worker advantage, going robo is the safe course of action. you need to be able to know if they are expanding. if they are expanding, you need to expand quickly behind them or just try to kill them with some non-robo route. a blink follow up after the build is the best to ensure a kill if they expand after dealing with your aggression, but playing blink into a non-expanding player is obviously not as free-win. i don't have a lot of experience playing blink-expand against robo, so i can't help you out much there.
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This build has been my go-to PvP build for a while, and I like it alot! However, I've been scouting at 11 Gateway and then dropping Core at 14 then putting workers on gas, getting a zealot after que'ing two probes. I find this lets me scout for cheese better, and the gas lines up with the stalker nicely! Is this an acceptable variance, or by doing this am I missing something really important? Thanks a millions!
EDIT: Derp, this isn't 12 gate you fool TT
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On March 04 2012 15:34 Stopher wrote: This build has been my go-to PvP build for a while, and I like it alot! However, I've been scouting at 11 Gateway and then dropping Core at 14 then putting workers on gas, getting a zealot after que'ing two probes. I find this lets me scout for cheese better, and the gas lines up with the stalker nicely! Is this an acceptable variance, or by doing this am I missing something really important? Thanks a millions!
EDIT: Derp, this isn't 12 gate you fool TT i have been scouting earlier in pvp for a little bit more info but i don't know if i would advise it for this build. i only use this build on maps where it is strong ie metal and shattered. on shattered i've been scouting on 14/15 pylon.. for this build in particular--in which you want that core dropped asap-- i would advise not scouting on gate.
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I'd like to add that the pylon placement to fend off a cannon rush on antiga isn't in the best spot... At the 9 o'clock position, there is a special arrangement of pylons that can block off behind your mineral line with 3 pylons, but the addition of your first pylon there means your opponent only needs 2, and the way movement is handled in that position, he has a REALLY REALLY good chance of completely walling you out and winning the game unless you preemptively pull probes to attack him. If you are still unsure of what I'm talking about just reply and I'll post an image of it, but I'm sure you can see how that pylon would be problematic.
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Awesome replays, just wondering if there is a timing vs 3stalker rush that lets you sneak a probe in before the 2 stalkers come out but after the first one leaves? Thanks a millions!
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On March 19 2012 11:56 Stopher wrote: Awesome replays, just wondering if there is a timing vs 3stalker rush that lets you sneak a probe in before the 2 stalkers come out but before the first one leaves? Thanks a millions! i wouldn't try to sneak that by, as you don't know if he's going to leave with the first talker or if he is going to leave his natural at all. i like to go in after all 3 would have left to get the best chance at a ninja scout. can't ever assume much.. i have seen aggression come from one of those 2nd gas before 2nd gate builds which shouldn't do anything but if you don't prepare for it you can suddenly be down a unit if you're being greedy
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Just FYI you'll get slightly more gas income by pulling the 3rd probe off of gas and putting it in your 2nd assimilator since the 3rd probe on gas is slightly less efficient than the first 2 probes on gas.
Also what do you do if you get your gas stolen? It doesn't seem like you have to time to kill it and still hit your timing at their ramp, so do you just ignore it? And what do you do with the freed up minerals? An extra probe or 2 or a 4th gate?
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Canada13372 Posts
On April 22 2012 13:48 Skyro wrote: Just FYI you'll get slightly more gas income by pulling the 3rd probe off of gas and putting it in your 2nd assimilator since the 3rd probe on gas is slightly less efficient than the first 2 probes on gas.
Also what do you do if you get your gas stolen? It doesn't seem like you have to time to kill it and still hit your timing at their ramp, so do you just ignore it? And what do you do with the freed up minerals? An extra probe or 2 or a 4th gate?
Whenever I do this build, I find that if they steal my gas and take their own there are a few things that impact my decisions (im not high level player mind you but PvP is my best matchup)
If they take my gas before they take their second gas I just go and attack as usual since I know they won't have any fast tech to help hold the rush (their 2nd gas is later than normal, and they will run out of sentries eventually). If they don't run out of sentries and always FF then I know that they didn't tech much at all and if they did they have a tech building doing nothing.
I usually with the extra minerals (if they take my gas after taking their own, opening better tech options to them) make a zealot from the gateway and rally it to the assimilator after my stalker comes out. This doesn't impact my timing at their ramp too much and often they have an early sentry which prevents my probe from placing a high ground pylon right away so I put just one pylon down at the ramp in this case. They usually have sentries with bad dps hitting the pylon so I don't need a second one if I cant get the high ground pylon down thanks to an early FF.
If they take my gas and I don't see their 2nd gas at any point, I'll just kill the gas and I don't usually attack ESPECIALLY if I only see 2 pylons in his base and chronoboost pooling. I've lost a few games continuing with my 3 gate only to find a fast or defensive 4 gate waiting for me. With late 2nd gas, I have a hard time defending a 4 gate since I can't really afford sentries and have no tech back at home. The other guy then dictates the game, he can expo and deny scouting, they can be aggressive, they can contain w/e they want all because I have less production and no tech to help me out of a pinch.
I could be wrong though
Whenever I do see 3 pylons Ill take the approach with a zealot after stalker rallied to my stolen assimilator, but I won't commit the initial warp ins if they let me up the ramp. I scout with my push and if I see zealot, 2 stalkers and 4 gates then I just head home and make a sentry ASAP in case they have a proxy and counter really quick after I force a warp in at their base.
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On January 14 2012 01:13 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 01:06 quickclickz wrote: Dunno what took me so long to find something like this but I'll it the second I get home and will probably end up thanking you anyways so here it is in advance. My PvP win rate is so bad that I don't even remember the last time i won (not exaggerating). Thank you so much for this and seeing as I'm a plat player I'll do 20 runs on yacob before I even try to do it on ladder. Thanks Sorry to break it to you, but this build doesn't really work as good as it used to. Sure it can be used for the occasional cheesy win, but it wont raise your winrate exceptionally on the ladder (not if you're nearing master level at least). edit: Just to make it clear I'm not just talking trash. This used to be my gotobuild in PvP for the longest time. I've stopped using it when I realized it had started giving me a lot more losses than wins.
Why do you say that it doesn't work as well as it used to? I understand that the secondary ramps pose a problem but are there any other reasons? I'm thinking of adopting this as my goto build in PvP because I want something micro intensive, so I'm sorta curious as to why you think its outdated.
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On May 01 2012 14:30 mahi29 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 01:13 Excludos wrote:On January 14 2012 01:06 quickclickz wrote: Dunno what took me so long to find something like this but I'll it the second I get home and will probably end up thanking you anyways so here it is in advance. My PvP win rate is so bad that I don't even remember the last time i won (not exaggerating). Thank you so much for this and seeing as I'm a plat player I'll do 20 runs on yacob before I even try to do it on ladder. Thanks Sorry to break it to you, but this build doesn't really work as good as it used to. Sure it can be used for the occasional cheesy win, but it wont raise your winrate exceptionally on the ladder (not if you're nearing master level at least). edit: Just to make it clear I'm not just talking trash. This used to be my gotobuild in PvP for the longest time. I've stopped using it when I realized it had started giving me a lot more losses than wins. Why do you say that it doesn't work as well as it used to? I understand that the secondary ramps pose a problem but are there any other reasons? I'm thinking of adopting this as my goto build in PvP because I want something micro intensive, so I'm sorta curious as to why you think its outdated. Also it's worth mentioning that Axslav on his stream today said something along the lines of it being a good build, because you get aggressive scouting, yet you aren't completely screwed if you don't do a lot of damage.
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On May 01 2012 14:46 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 14:30 mahi29 wrote:On January 14 2012 01:13 Excludos wrote:On January 14 2012 01:06 quickclickz wrote: Dunno what took me so long to find something like this but I'll it the second I get home and will probably end up thanking you anyways so here it is in advance. My PvP win rate is so bad that I don't even remember the last time i won (not exaggerating). Thank you so much for this and seeing as I'm a plat player I'll do 20 runs on yacob before I even try to do it on ladder. Thanks Sorry to break it to you, but this build doesn't really work as good as it used to. Sure it can be used for the occasional cheesy win, but it wont raise your winrate exceptionally on the ladder (not if you're nearing master level at least). edit: Just to make it clear I'm not just talking trash. This used to be my gotobuild in PvP for the longest time. I've stopped using it when I realized it had started giving me a lot more losses than wins. Why do you say that it doesn't work as well as it used to? I understand that the secondary ramps pose a problem but are there any other reasons? I'm thinking of adopting this as my goto build in PvP because I want something micro intensive, so I'm sorta curious as to why you think its outdated. Also it's worth mentioning that Axslav on his stream today said something along the lines of it being a good build, because you get aggressive scouting, yet you aren't completely screwed if you don't do a lot of damage. Yeah, I remember hearing/watching that and I looked up the guide for this. Thats why I'm wondering whether its still a viable build. Though i guess, if Axslav says its good, it should be fine for a plat player
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so someone just used this build vs me 3 games in a row. Super duper risky if scouted, which it will get scouted... But it also has its benefits, and punishes players who also play risky i suppose.
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On May 01 2012 16:00 Grampz wrote: so someone just used this build vs me 3 games in a row. Super duper risky if scouted, which it will get scouted... But it also has its benefits, and punishes players who also play risky i suppose.
Risky how, if scouted?
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On May 01 2012 16:55 mahi29 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 16:00 Grampz wrote: so someone just used this build vs me 3 games in a row. Super duper risky if scouted, which it will get scouted... But it also has its benefits, and punishes players who also play risky i suppose. Risky how, if scouted? in my opinion, gas steal. if it's a really early scout, they can opt for a faster-than-usual 3 stalker rush with faster gas to prevent stealing while trying to steal yours. in that case, i suggest refraining from letting the pylons finish or even starting more than 1 as a feint.
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Been trying out this build for a while and it has gotten me out of silver finally!
Anyways simple micro tricks for other low APM players such as myself.
1. Rally your first zealot to the center of the map. 2. Once your zealot pops out, rally your first gate to your zealot as you start your first stalker. 3. Once your stalker pops out, set your zealot to attack move the top of your opponents ramp.
This will make your Zealot and Stalker come up your opponents ramp in the perfect formation as fast as possible.
You are now free to put down Gate 2 and 3 without microing your units much. You are now free to control your scouting probe so that you can put that proxy pylon up his ramp easily.
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I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build.
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On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote: I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build.
Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss.
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On August 15 2012 09:45 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote: I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build. Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss.
Well its terrible vs Zerg, so I don't plan on using it there, but vs Terran I find that I'm hitting with either 3 Stalkers, 2 Zealots, or 4 Stalkers 1 Zealot with another Stalker rallying in there. At that timing they should have about as many Marines as I have Zealots and Stalkers so they just die(If they 1 Rax FE). If they have a bunker, they may fare alright, but if they dont, they usually just die. Its got potential in PvT I think. It just hits so early. The one PvT I did it in the guy didn't go 1 rax FE, but went Reaper expand and just got destroyed. I was Silver, he was Diamond. lol.
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On August 15 2012 13:20 Havik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 09:45 Jaeger wrote:On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote: I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build. Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss. Well its terrible vs Zerg, so I don't plan on using it there, but vs Terran I find that I'm hitting with either 3 Stalkers, 2 Zealots, or 4 Stalkers 1 Zealot with another Stalker rallying in there. At that timing they should have about as many Marines as I have Zealots and Stalkers so they just die(If they 1 Rax FE). If they have a bunker, they may fare alright, but if they dont, they usually just die. Its got potential in PvT I think. It just hits so early. The one PvT I did it in the guy didn't go 1 rax FE, but went Reaper expand and just got destroyed. I was Silver, he was Diamond. lol.
You'll eventually get T that see you are not 1 gate expanding, and prepare for one base shenanigans accordingly.
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Canada13372 Posts
On August 15 2012 14:11 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 13:20 Havik_ wrote:On August 15 2012 09:45 Jaeger wrote:On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote: I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build. Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss. Well its terrible vs Zerg, so I don't plan on using it there, but vs Terran I find that I'm hitting with either 3 Stalkers, 2 Zealots, or 4 Stalkers 1 Zealot with another Stalker rallying in there. At that timing they should have about as many Marines as I have Zealots and Stalkers so they just die(If they 1 Rax FE). If they have a bunker, they may fare alright, but if they dont, they usually just die. Its got potential in PvT I think. It just hits so early. The one PvT I did it in the guy didn't go 1 rax FE, but went Reaper expand and just got destroyed. I was Silver, he was Diamond. lol. You'll eventually get T that see you are not 1 gate expanding, and prepare for one base shenanigans accordingly.
And its fair to say reaper tech lab fe is pretty bad. I have gone 1 gate fe, killed stuff on low ground with 1 z 1 stalkers and then follow up 3 gated with chrono stalkers before WG finishes and won.
Unless they go Bunker low ground THEN CC, the tech lab fe does pretty poorly. Just rally your 2nd stalker to your mineral line and the reaper can't hurt you.
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Northern Ireland20737 Posts
Thank god I found this thread again, I remember reading it before and forgot to add it to my build folder.
Really cool, especially because players on ladder are playing greedy Robo builds a lot, anything that can punish that and avoid Collosus wars is a good thing
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On August 15 2012 14:11 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 13:20 Havik_ wrote:On August 15 2012 09:45 Jaeger wrote:On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote: I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build. Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss. Well its terrible vs Zerg, so I don't plan on using it there, but vs Terran I find that I'm hitting with either 3 Stalkers, 2 Zealots, or 4 Stalkers 1 Zealot with another Stalker rallying in there. At that timing they should have about as many Marines as I have Zealots and Stalkers so they just die(If they 1 Rax FE). If they have a bunker, they may fare alright, but if they dont, they usually just die. Its got potential in PvT I think. It just hits so early. The one PvT I did it in the guy didn't go 1 rax FE, but went Reaper expand and just got destroyed. I was Silver, he was Diamond. lol. You'll eventually get T that see you are not 1 gate expanding, and prepare for one base shenanigans accordingly.
Funny you mention that. I just did it against a top 4 Masters Terran and he just barely held it. I was one shot away from breaking his Bunker. I was late with the attack too. This can definitely work vs Terran, but you have to do damage. For low league though, it owns. You have to be spot on with the timing though.
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On August 15 2012 14:47 Havik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 14:11 Xahhk wrote:On August 15 2012 13:20 Havik_ wrote:On August 15 2012 09:45 Jaeger wrote:On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote: I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build. Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss. Well its terrible vs Zerg, so I don't plan on using it there, but vs Terran I find that I'm hitting with either 3 Stalkers, 2 Zealots, or 4 Stalkers 1 Zealot with another Stalker rallying in there. At that timing they should have about as many Marines as I have Zealots and Stalkers so they just die(If they 1 Rax FE). If they have a bunker, they may fare alright, but if they dont, they usually just die. Its got potential in PvT I think. It just hits so early. The one PvT I did it in the guy didn't go 1 rax FE, but went Reaper expand and just got destroyed. I was Silver, he was Diamond. lol. You'll eventually get T that see you are not 1 gate expanding, and prepare for one base shenanigans accordingly. Funny you mention that. I just did it against a top 4 Masters Terran and he just barely held it. I was one shot away from breaking his Bunker. I was late with the attack too. This can definitely work vs Terran, but you have to do damage. For low league though, it owns. You have to be spot on with the timing though.
I don't want to be that guy but I don't think you are right. I don't see this working against a Terran even if he is doing a 1 rax gasless expand and here is why:
The Terran player does not have to hold his natural. Just float your CC back into your main, salvage the bunker and rebuild on high ground. Then you just fight to hold the ramp, this will end up with the Terran player being ahead. Defending a push that is slightly weaker (unitwise) than a 4gate and with no sentries for guardian shield or to forcefield repairing SCVs away is not that hard.
All in all, I dont see you breaking the ramp. The Terran will now have 2 OC, more SCVs and it wont be long before he can reclaim his natural and just be way ahead. The follow up 2 or 4 medivac timing will be extremly hard for you to deal with.
If he does choose to try to fight and hold his natural and succeeds, the game is pretty much over right there.
If you have an account on EU I'd love to show you what I mean if it is unclear. Just PM me here on TL and I'll give you my details so we can play a couple of games.
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On August 15 2012 21:12 terrancake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 14:47 Havik_ wrote:On August 15 2012 14:11 Xahhk wrote:On August 15 2012 13:20 Havik_ wrote:On August 15 2012 09:45 Jaeger wrote:On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote: I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build. Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss. Well its terrible vs Zerg, so I don't plan on using it there, but vs Terran I find that I'm hitting with either 3 Stalkers, 2 Zealots, or 4 Stalkers 1 Zealot with another Stalker rallying in there. At that timing they should have about as many Marines as I have Zealots and Stalkers so they just die(If they 1 Rax FE). If they have a bunker, they may fare alright, but if they dont, they usually just die. Its got potential in PvT I think. It just hits so early. The one PvT I did it in the guy didn't go 1 rax FE, but went Reaper expand and just got destroyed. I was Silver, he was Diamond. lol. You'll eventually get T that see you are not 1 gate expanding, and prepare for one base shenanigans accordingly. Funny you mention that. I just did it against a top 4 Masters Terran and he just barely held it. I was one shot away from breaking his Bunker. I was late with the attack too. This can definitely work vs Terran, but you have to do damage. For low league though, it owns. You have to be spot on with the timing though. I don't want to be that guy but I don't think you are right. I don't see this working against a Terran even if he is doing a 1 rax gasless expand and here is why: The Terran player does not have to hold his natural. Just float your CC back into your main, salvage the bunker and rebuild on high ground. Then you just fight to hold the ramp, this will end up with the Terran player being ahead. Defending a push that is slightly weaker (unitwise) than a 4gate and with no sentries for guardian shield or to forcefield repairing SCVs away is not that hard. All in all, I dont see you breaking the ramp. The Terran will now have 2 OC, more SCVs and it wont be long before he can reclaim his natural and just be way ahead. The follow up 2 or 4 medivac timing will be extremly hard for you to deal with. If he does choose to try to fight and hold his natural and succeeds, the game is pretty much over right there. If you have an account on EU I'd love to show you what I mean if it is unclear. Just PM me here on TL and I'll give you my details so we can play a couple of games.
Yeah, that happened to me yesterday, although I was late and did almost no damage. If I had actually hit the timing, I would have at least done some damage. I don't think I'm going to make it my go to build vs Terran though. I do think its something that you could use in a Bo5 or something along those lines though, and most players below Diamond will have trouble with it as is.
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I use 11gate often but I changed the build a little bit. 9pylon 11gate @gate50% gas @gate finish core+zealot+probe(u should be 18/18 supply block here) Pylon when u can afford Then halt probe production. stalker when core finish Then 2gate + 1more stalker this time u can resume probe production.
I feel comfortable with this because it will not lose to 3stalker opening and u can do a lot of damage with 1more stalker. What do u guys think?
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So I guess the noob question here is: Is this build better in PvP than either the 3 stalker or the HerO's Stargate Opener?
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On September 05 2012 00:31 samchan1331 wrote: I use 11gate often but I changed the build a little bit. 9pylon 11gate @gate50% gas @gate finish core+zealot+probe(u should be 18/18 supply block here) Pylon when u can afford Then halt probe production. stalker when core finish Then 2gate + 1more stalker this time u can resume probe production.
I feel comfortable with this because it will not lose to 3stalker opening and u can do a lot of damage with 1more stalker. What do u guys think?
What league are you in? The only advantage of this build is negated when you wait for that second stalker, even waiting for the 1st stalker, you will barely have enough time to rally your zealot, stalker and probe to your opponents base to plant the proxy.
On September 05 2012 10:34 BoZiffer wrote: So I guess the noob question here is: Is this build better in PvP than either the 3 stalker or the HerO's Stargate Opener?
They accomplish different things. 3 stalker is safer and gives you more probes and gas, but runs the risk of falling behind to greedier builds and slows your warpgate tech. Heros stargate build is safe, but is also risky if your sentry control is not as good and relies on being reactive to your opponent. This build is risky if scouted and the proxy is stopped cold, is very difficult to execute but often wins the game outright or puts you in a commanding lead if successfully done.
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