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ZvT – Baneling Counterattacks, Take that 2Rax!
Examples/Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
The Concept
+ Show Spoiler +Once you drone scout, respond to 2rax pressure by immediately baneling busting on 1base. This is not a long-drawn out analysis of the mid-late game, this is a fast and effective counter-attack designed to win games quickly or at least set you up with an advantage (after killing all terran scvs), at which point you can move into 2base play. Since the dawn of SC2 beta, zerg has been deemed the “Macro” or “Reactionary” race. The so-called correct style of zerg has always been heavy, heavy droning in the early stages with big mid-game/late game map control and aggression. As a result of fans observing professional zerg players like IdrA and Ret make so many drones, new and aspiring zerg players everywhere take a passive/defensive stance and “just take it” when terran pressures them early. So often when zerg players are trying to learn effective ways of dealing with certain types of pressure, they think solely along the lines of “How can I stay even or ahead in the macro game” or “How can I expand after I'm pressured.” Unfortunately, due to the negative views towards “cheesy/all-in builds” (See thread comments), people refuse to acknowledge that after being attacked, a correct response is often to all-in – as your opponent is likely behind and will either die or invest heavily in defense, allowing you to macro while you attack. While I do not recommend blindly cheesing every game, it is very different to have an aggressive response to something you scout. In this case, the terran 2 barracks rush. One of the most common forms of early aggression for terran is the 2rax marine/scv/bunker rush. The basic outline of this opening is simple: Make marines out of 2 early barracks to attack the zerg player's expansion and hopefully force a cancel or delay his expansion from being started by placing bunkers at or near the hatchery/ramp. Quite a few players blindly open 11/11 barracks, proxy 2rax, or maka-rax in TvZ. Some players even do more economic 2rax and will still try to move out and do some damage, while greedily moving towards a fast CC. Some players even do variations of the 3rax marine/scv all-in. You can punish these types of strategies by going for a baneling bust off one-base, and win a good percentage of the time. Even if you don't kill him outright, you're not in terrible shape if you bust and do damage to the mineral line and expand behind it. When zerg players scout this, a lot of them think “oh damn” and start thinking about ways to get their expansion up a bit later with a slight disadvantage: Baneling busting the bunkers so they can safely rebuild their expansion hatchery, spreading creep to the ramp so spines can reach the bunkers, etc. On the other hand, when I scout the 2rax, I think “hell yeah :D” and throw away all preconceived notions of expanding. It's time to execute a one-base baneling counter attack. Think about it from a terran perspective. To do a 2rax attack, you're skipping gas at least in the very early stages. This means no tech: Hellions, banshees, tanks are out of the question. So they will have only marines to defend, with no upgrades. If they lost most of their marines doing early pressure with the 2rax, they're ill-equipped to deal with a very aggressive ling/baneling counter attack. Almost all terran players, after their 2rax aggression is thwarted, will place a command center in their base and start moving into the macro game. This is your timing window to bust in with your banelings and wreak havoc on his mineral line! In short, instead of playing a macro game when someone tries to cheese you, fight fire with fire and all-in them right back!
The Build
+ Show Spoiler +NOTE: This build is designed to counter players who attack aggressively with 2rax, not against players who play defensive 2rax. 9: Overlord – This overlord goes to your expansion, but you'll need to pull it somewhere safe once you scout he has 2rax. You cannot lose overlords to 2rax. (Scout between 10 and 12 supply. Use this drone to take the xel between your base and his so you see when he moves out with marines and scvs) 14Gas 14 Pool 15 Overlord 15 Queen 17 2xLings, Speed (You should have scouted 2rax by now. Instead of taking guys out of gas and producing drones, continue producing lings) 22 Baneling Nest (Make sure to spit with your queen, you need as many larva as possible). 21 Overlord 21- Mass Lings, still mining gas. Keep in mind, at this stage in the game, you can still macro if you haven't gotten enough information to know your bust is going to be effective. If you've held of really aggressive commitments from the terran player, it's definitely time to bust. If he only brings 2 marines and an scv, and you scout the terran ramp and see 2 bunkers, it may be time to use your larva inject for drones and take your natural.
Executing the Build:
+ Show Spoiler +The early stages are pretty straightforward. Once your lingspeed finishes, though, you should have your first inject done and ideally be able to get a surround on his marines or bunker and stop his early aggression. If he manages to fully wall you in, though, you'll need to bust your way out. IMMEDIATELY after his bunkers and marines are dealt with, you should continue rallying lings and streaming into his expansion area. Once you reach his expansion, begin morphing in banelings immediately and use one ling to scout up the ramp to get an idea of his building placement. Look for vulnerabilities: barracks add-ons or supply depots are much weaker than larger building. It takes 5 banelings to blow up a depot or add-on, I recommend having 6 in case his marines pick off your banelings (One way to prevent losing a baneling on the way in is to lead with 1-2 zerglings to “Tank” then sending the rest of your banelings). If he has a bunker and a supply depot, you'll want at least about 12 banelings to bust through. It's very important to lead with the banelings and then follow through with the zerglings to stream into the base. If you lead with the zerglings, your banes won't be able to read the buildings and your push may fail.
Once you get into the terran main, the game is essentially over as long as you do enough damage with your lings and continue streaming them in. Your main goals should be to kill attacking units (Marines/scvs) and deny any bunkers from being build. It's almost important to prevent him from re-walling off, as you need your reinforcing lings to help with the push. In general, try to get a good surround so you have a lot of surface area when you engage marines and scvs in the terran main. Unless you have banelings to blow up a big clump, do not try to engage in narrow areas where marines are in the back and scvs are in the front - it's important to snipe those marines first!
My hotkey recommendation: Hotkey your banelings when they're morphing in as 2 and hotkey all your zerglings (And eggs producing zerglings) as 1. Hotkey just 1 or 2 zerglings separately as 3. Use 3 to scout up the ramp and determine your bust target. Press 2 to select banes and right click on your target. If he has a depot and a bunker, you'll want to hold shift a right click the depot and then the bunker. Press 1 stream right into his base with the lings, make sure your rally point is now set inside the terran base. ^Just because you're being aggressive doesn't mean you aren't practicing skills needed for macro: Optimal unit control, precise queen spits, constant larva production, rally points, multitasking
Scouting
+ Show Spoiler +In order to execute this type of build, you need to have good scouting info at various stages in the game. 1) Drone scout and find out that he's going 2rax. 2) It's important to keep your drone alive and on the map so you can take the xel naga tower and know when he's pushing out, because this is not a bust that will work well if he doesn't pressure you. If he's playing defensively, you may just opt to take guys out of gas and go for a speedling expand. If you opt for this style, you need to scout aggressively to know how many lings/spines to build. 3) Once you've held off the initial pressure, you need to get to his ramp with speedlings RIGHT AWAY to scoutand determine what type of wall he has. Most players will keep a very simple wall up at the front, and you'll be able to bust easily through weaker buildings like depots and add-ons. A more cunning player may wall in with barracks and command center, in which case you'll need to either delay your baneling bust until you have much more banes or decide to just pull back and cancel your nest. If he is somehow able to wall-in with big buildings like barracks and afford bunkers, you should not attempt a bust.
Discussion Questions:
1) If zerg does some damage but doesn't end the game, is there a follow-through or is the build all-in?
2) Once terran decides to go for aggression with their 2rax, how should they respond to seeing no expansion? Should they move up the ramp and try to end it, bunker up the zerg natural ramp, or pull back to their main?
3) Do you think this will kill the majority of players opening 2rax or marine/scv all in? Why/Why not?
Thank you all for reading, GL HF
- Tang
Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.com
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I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading
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That's a standard one base baneling bust no? Exists since beta :/
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If T scouts you it's so gg. It's so easy to stop a bane bust off of 2rax because you'll have the 2rax at the wall and you just need to add another and sometimes a bunker or just put your CC to wall it off.
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If the T scouts you (and he will, even in your VOD), you are dead.
The VOD you provided is a bit misleading; it only works because richman goes 2port banshee after a 2rax by default. That being said, if you were to ever play him again and try this again, it would fail pretty hard.
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I've had enormous success with it in high master/grand master levels and I think it's an underutilized response, especially for players who are really struggling with 2rax pressure. It's not a flawless build and obviously there's a slim chance your opponent will scan your main and see the nest or scan your expo and see no hatchery and mass bunkers to defend. However, in my experience it has worked enough times for it to be considered a smart response to the 2rax and a way to hold any kind of scv/marine all-in.
Keep in mind with speedlings you can deny any scv scouting though, so really the only way they can know is if they scan.
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Kind of funny the level of complacency if this is actually working in GM
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I laughed so much when I saw that the video was vs Namhcir. He does very cheesy all-ins that rely on his opponent doing something somewhat standard. And in usual Namhcir style he double gasses to attempt to get up his 2 port banshees. A 6 pool would kill him every game too since he proxy raxes.
Still I don't doubt that it works well in high masters and grand masters, simply because Baneling Busts are really good, and as Namhcir shows us every time he plays, you can be Grandmaster relying solely on cheese. I've met a lot of masters Terrans who rely almost exclusively cheese and thus can't just sit back and defend and macro since they simply do not know how to. And defensive macro play is obviously the best response to aggression early Zerg aggression.
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I would think most terrans wouldn't move out if they scouted you with no hatch first. In my experience once they scout a pool or gas first build they bunker down and either start a cc or take their gases. I'm only low-mid masters so your much better than I am, and I'll take your word that this works, but what do you do if they don't move out? Or play a little more cautiously?
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So you're countering a 2rax with a baneling bust? This isn't even a counter, or particularly strong vs 2rax. That's an I hope he doesn't scout and cuts defensive corners vs speed first build.
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On October 10 2011 01:12 HornSnHaloS wrote: So you're countering a 2rax with a baneling bust? This isn't even a counter, or particularly strong vs 2rax. That's an I hope he doesn't scout and cuts defensive corners vs speed first build.
Which a lot of high masters Terrans, like Namhcir, do.
It is easier to play an aggressive style in general, since you're only doing one thing and you're controlling how the game plays out. If you try and play responsive, you'll have to learn many different defensive styles in order to defend against all those different aggressive styles.
And so a lot of players (particularly Terran since they have the most viable 1 base aggressive builds) get into masters simply being aggressive despite not knowing too much about the game, because they are only seeing a small slice of the game since they commit to a single one or two base build every game. This also happens to be the best way to get better at the game as you're "drilling deep" and mastering a small slice of the game, instead of trying to learn many different strategies all at once.
This about it relation to this build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223517
But when the tables are turned, and an aggressive player with a only a few builds forced into a macro game, they lose badly.
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What happens if terran decides not to bunker you, makes a dble wall with the CC and just prepare for a marine tank push once he deals with your baneling bust??
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On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading
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On October 10 2011 01:18 DtorR wrote: What happens if terran decides not to bunker you, makes a dble wall with the CC and just prepare for a marine tank push once he deals with your baneling bust??
Read what I posted above.
I've watched hundreds of Namhcir games (I enjoy his style) and I don't think he could pull this off. He lives or dies with his aggression.
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I was expecting a cool guide about some type of smart constant zerg aggression while slowly adding bases. Instead I get a one base baneling bust.
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On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading
Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter.
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On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Yeah I think you're kind of relying on your opponent not having any game sense or scouting when you execute this. If he does a hellion opening and you open with this build it's going to be pretty inefficient to just transition out and expo.
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So what if he walls you off with the bunker rush? Will you baneling bust the contain?
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On October 10 2011 01:26 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Yeah I think you're kind of relying on your opponent not having any game sense or scouting when you execute this. If he does a hellion opening and you open with this build it's going to be pretty inefficient to just transition out and expo.
That's why you drone scout, this is a response to 2rax aggression and notably you don't have to put the nest down until after terran moves out. If he sits in his base, you can still expand.
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2-rax got no counter, you dummie. Good defense and micro is your heavy counter.
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On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this.
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On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter.
Says a lot about the Zergs they are playing against
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Um yeah, why wouldn't he just wall you off if you're 1basing. He sees you bust out of the contain, you're already behind, he throws down a couple bunkers at home and is safe from any more 1 base shenanigans. And you lose.
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On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this.
You're putting words in my mouth, Kawaii, and I don't understand your hostility. I don't even know how you inferred that I think it's a "solid build". In fact, I argue the complete opposite. It's not going to work every time, it's not going to set you up with a macro advantage. It's going to win a high enough percentage of games to make it a reasonable and effective response to the 2rax. For you to call players that have lost to it "really bad" is both untrue and rude.
I made it to GM and this is one of my response to 2rax pressure, and I think any zerg can incorporate it in their arsenal of builds.
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On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. ...
This.
If I see a zerg go gas/pool, I hide an SCV on the map and check natural after a minute or two... this would really never work against anyone with a brain. This guide is basically "how to allin and pray your opponent sucks".
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On October 10 2011 01:49 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. ... This. If I see a zerg go gas/pool, I hide an SCV on the map and check natural after a minute or two... this would really never work against anyone with a brain. This guide is basically "how to allin and pray your opponent sucks".
Good zerg players scout around with speedlings for hidden scvs/probes, players who are good at all-in must scout actively.
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On October 10 2011 01:51 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:49 Pokebunny wrote:On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. ... This. If I see a zerg go gas/pool, I hide an SCV on the map and check natural after a minute or two... this would really never work against anyone with a brain. This guide is basically "how to allin and pray your opponent sucks". Good zerg players scout around with speedlings for hidden scvs/probes, players who are good at all-in must scout actively. Eh... I don't think you can deny enough to really kill suspicion of an allin.
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On October 10 2011 01:53 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:51 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 01:49 Pokebunny wrote:On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. ... This. If I see a zerg go gas/pool, I hide an SCV on the map and check natural after a minute or two... this would really never work against anyone with a brain. This guide is basically "how to allin and pray your opponent sucks". Good zerg players scout around with speedlings for hidden scvs/probes, players who are good at all-in must scout actively. Eh... I don't think you can deny enough to really kill suspicion of an allin.
Well you just need to keep them away from your expansion.
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On October 10 2011 01:49 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. You're putting words in my mouth, Kawaii, and I don't understand your hostility. I don't even know how you inferred that I think it's a "solid build". In fact, I argue the complete opposite. It's not going to work every time, it's not going to set you up with a macro advantage. It's going to win a high enough percentage of games to make it a reasonable and effective response to the 2rax. For you to call players that have lost to it "really bad" is both untrue and incredibly rude. I made it to GM and this is one of my response to 2rax pressure, and I think any zerg can incorporate it in their arsenal of builds. If my way of speaking is hostile to you then I apologize. However that is what I believe. Winning games nor a na gm rank mean you're good in the pro scene. If you intend to help the community and write a guide then it should be something useful and well thought out and adhere to to strat guidelines. However now to be truly hostile- this is just an allin with a low chance of success and you're presenting a guide to promote yourself.
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I really hope that <diamond Zerg players that are struggling with 2rax don't see this thread and think of it as the answer. if you really wanted to bling bust, go hatch first then do a 2 base bust. It's less all in, less scoutable, and therefore, more likely to be beneficial.
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On October 10 2011 01:57 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:49 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. You're putting words in my mouth, Kawaii, and I don't understand your hostility. I don't even know how you inferred that I think it's a "solid build". In fact, I argue the complete opposite. It's not going to work every time, it's not going to set you up with a macro advantage. It's going to win a high enough percentage of games to make it a reasonable and effective response to the 2rax. For you to call players that have lost to it "really bad" is both untrue and incredibly rude. I made it to GM and this is one of my response to 2rax pressure, and I think any zerg can incorporate it in their arsenal of builds. If my way of speaking is hostile to you then I apologize. However that is what I believe. Winning games nor a na gm rank mean you're good in the pro scene. If you intend to help the community and write a guide then it should be something useful and well thought out and adhere to to strat guidelines. However now to be truly hostile- this is just an allin with a low chance of success and you're presenting a guide for to promote yourself.
I'm not talking about the SC2 pro scene, but I have extensive experience coaching SC2 and to make top 200 in North America means I'm at least above average in skill. I'm not saying I'm the best player in the world, and I'm not saying I don't benefit at all from making these posts, as I do mention my website. However, TL posts and youtube is my way of giving back to the community and those who can't afford coaching. I sincerely feel that this build is a response that will help players of all skill levels improve and deal with terran aggression. You can say it has a low chance of success, and in the pro scene that may be true, but my goal is to help aspiring zerg players struggling to play a style that doesn't suit them. I don't mind being criticized, and I don't mind people arguing that the builds are ineffective for whatever reason - active and critical analysis is important - but I expect better from professional players than to make personal attacks. I am certain people will benefit from my guides and I will continue to produce aggressive-zerg style threads. I will do everything I can to help the SC2 community improve their confidence and abilities <3
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wow nice build, i've known that a baneling bust vs a "aggressive" (proxy) can be very strong and need to be aware of it, but haven't seen so many banelings o.o lol
edit: isn't advertising not allowed? especially in a strategy thread? what's with the tangstarcraft coaching advertisement...
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On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter.
If this is a build you wouldn't do against a high caliber player, then what's the point? 14/14 baneling bust will work against a sloppy terran, even a sloppy protoss; against someone who is decent and that high up it will never work because it's too easy to defend.
Keep in mind as well, before bunkers go up the scv is there able to scout you not expand. If they see you go speed first then usually terrans will play more defensively because they are wary of speedlings. They pull back, wall in and you have nothing.
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What a Pride like guide. But for zergs! I feel I'm with pokebunny... once it's scouted that you aren't expanding, and you get sling speed that early, I always back off and FE in base and sit in my base until stim, blue flame, siege... something. I also do an scv poke or a scan at the main to check roach or bane once I suspect one base from zerg.
Sure, it works, but it requires some slack play, which in my case happens all the time.
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On October 10 2011 02:09 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:49 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. You're putting words in my mouth, Kawaii, and I don't understand your hostility. I don't even know how you inferred that I think it's a "solid build". In fact, I argue the complete opposite. It's not going to work every time, it's not going to set you up with a macro advantage. It's going to win a high enough percentage of games to make it a reasonable and effective response to the 2rax. For you to call players that have lost to it "really bad" is both untrue and incredibly rude. I made it to GM and this is one of my response to 2rax pressure, and I think any zerg can incorporate it in their arsenal of builds. If my way of speaking is hostile to you then I apologize. However that is what I believe. Winning games nor a na gm rank mean you're good in the pro scene. If you intend to help the community and write a guide then it should be something useful and well thought out and adhere to to strat guidelines. However now to be truly hostile- this is just an allin with a low chance of success and you're presenting a guide for to promote yourself. I'm not talking about the SC2 pro scene, but I have extensive experience coaching SC2 and to make top 200 in North America means I'm at least above average in skill. I'm not saying I'm the best player in the world, and I'm not saying I don't benefit at all from making these posts, as I do mention my website. However, TL posts and youtube is my way of giving back to the community and those who can't afford coaching. I sincerely feel that this build is a response that will help players of all skill levels improve and deal with terran aggression. You can say it has a low chance of success, and in the pro scene that may be true, but my goal is to help aspiring zerg players struggling to play a style that doesn't suit them. I don't mind being criticized, and I don't mind people arguing that the builds are ineffective for whatever reason - active and critical analysis is important - but I expect better from professional players than to make personal attacks. I am certain people will benefit from my guides and I will continue to produce aggressive-zerg style threads. I will do everything I can to help the SC2 community improve their confidence and abilities <3 I think that anytime you play at diamond+ and lose to a cheese, it doesn't mean that you're a horrible player, but you sure played horrible that game if you managed to lose to it, hence "you're basically praying for your opponent to be bad for this to work", and I completely agree. You've made your stances on the viability of this build, it's flaw, etc, fine fine.
I've sat back and watched your posts, and there's always something a bit off on the way you present yourself. I'm not going to take kawaii's words and say that he and I are talking about the same thing to the pin, but this guide is simply poorly constructed. I agree that a guide on a cheese, and that realm of strategy is always good to have in your toolset, but step back for a minute and read your own guide. Read the title for god's sake.
[G] Hyper-Aggressive ZvT: Countering the 2Rax (GM) It was said in the first post and I'll explain it more now. As a reader of tl, I'd expect to see a style that was well thought out and an effective response to a terran who 2 rax's. I also expect this build to be a viable strategy for any player under GM. I open the thread and you make the disclaimer in exaggerated terms that this build is a cheese. Why couldn't you write "[G] Baneling bust zvt: Counter the 2 rax"? Not only does it provide more information about the build, but it takes less space to do it.
The problem I have with your guides is you put so much clutter into it that it looks like you're shamelessly trying to promote yourself. Everything under the "concept" tab is complete and useless information, and it takes up 3 paragraphs. I'll write a new one for you Concept: This build is designed to combat the 2 rax agressive play that terrans have been using in response to zerg's who fast expand. This is essentially to counter terrans who metagame zergs that go hatch first. Done.
Your execution of the build is also poorly written. The first part provides no tips on scouting, and basically says: once your speed is finished, rally lings to his expansion. You then provide the way to bust the wall... and then what? You provide no follow up. Am I to assume that I can bust any wall? What do I do if he has a double rax triple depot wall? What do I do if the bust fails? What do I do when I get into the base? Do I sac the lings and kill scvs and then macro? Do I kill marines that come out and keep rallying lings until I have enough to overrun him? When if ever should I expand? If he starts another wall should I bust it again? You've provided me information about hotkeying my units, but you haven't taught me any follow up to the build.
All in all, I feel like the reason everyone has negative feelings about this guide is because you've taken a response that would take 1 paragraph to write, and written 6+ paragraphs on it, while promoting yourself.
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Oh yeah sure, like zerg need any help against terran i mean seriously, oh im zerg and I can make 90 drones off 4bases in 10 minutes and be just fine then make 80 ultras and then 80 broodlords then slings then infestors for a auto-win every time, how logical eh
User was banned for this post.
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I'll do this sometimes if I scout a proxy 2 rax and they overcommit, but my usual inclination is to speedling expand.
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On October 10 2011 03:02 phiinix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 02:09 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 01:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:49 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. You're putting words in my mouth, Kawaii, and I don't understand your hostility. I don't even know how you inferred that I think it's a "solid build". In fact, I argue the complete opposite. It's not going to work every time, it's not going to set you up with a macro advantage. It's going to win a high enough percentage of games to make it a reasonable and effective response to the 2rax. For you to call players that have lost to it "really bad" is both untrue and incredibly rude. I made it to GM and this is one of my response to 2rax pressure, and I think any zerg can incorporate it in their arsenal of builds. If my way of speaking is hostile to you then I apologize. However that is what I believe. Winning games nor a na gm rank mean you're good in the pro scene. If you intend to help the community and write a guide then it should be something useful and well thought out and adhere to to strat guidelines. However now to be truly hostile- this is just an allin with a low chance of success and you're presenting a guide for to promote yourself. I'm not talking about the SC2 pro scene, but I have extensive experience coaching SC2 and to make top 200 in North America means I'm at least above average in skill. I'm not saying I'm the best player in the world, and I'm not saying I don't benefit at all from making these posts, as I do mention my website. However, TL posts and youtube is my way of giving back to the community and those who can't afford coaching. I sincerely feel that this build is a response that will help players of all skill levels improve and deal with terran aggression. You can say it has a low chance of success, and in the pro scene that may be true, but my goal is to help aspiring zerg players struggling to play a style that doesn't suit them. I don't mind being criticized, and I don't mind people arguing that the builds are ineffective for whatever reason - active and critical analysis is important - but I expect better from professional players than to make personal attacks. I am certain people will benefit from my guides and I will continue to produce aggressive-zerg style threads. I will do everything I can to help the SC2 community improve their confidence and abilities <3 All in all, I feel like the reason everyone has negative feelings about this guide is because you've taken a response that would take 1 paragraph to write, and written 6+ paragraphs on it, while promoting yourself.
Just trying to help people out man.
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The title is very misleading. You present it as a new style to counter 2 rax, when 1: it doesn't necessarily counter 2 rax, and 2: it's not new. The terran didn't wall off the ramp which was super dumb, and on top of it, he scouted the baneling nest with his scv and did nothing to prepare for it. No marines, no bunker wall, etc. This is just a regular 1 base baneling bust. Nothing new here.
Plus I hate in your opening paragraph when you say things like "If you're a pure-macro player, close the thread now because this will not be to your liking." As if you're presenting something a macro player doesn't already know. This is not a guide, it's just a showcase for sloppy play. Besides I hate the term "macro player." WTF does that even mean. Every player is a macro player.
I was expecting some cool new Korean style with lots of muta and drop agression, fast tech and a lot of midgame planning, but I was left with a subpar replay of a bling allin against a Terran who looks like he has no clue what hes doing.
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I don't see whats wrong with the build, it's actually quite genius to baneling all-in after a failed 2-rax all-in. He never said it was effective against macro 2 rax but only strong against proxy rax and seriously aggressive 2 rax. Thing is, 2 rax is quite a dead build these days but it's still very cool to see zergs punishing terrans expecting for the 2 rax to not be countered. And his opening statement is kinda correct, because most macro zergs will try to sneak in a drone here and there but that's wrong! you gotta jump the gun like Julyzerg and not a lot of zergs are even trying that.
don't listen to the haters!
My typical response to aggressive 2 rax is usually uber defensive. my first queen spreads creep, I get two spine crawlers and edge my way to the ramp. I end up getting a macro hatch and just drone like crazy, if they invest in bunkers beyond my ramp then I get lings for busting. The macro hatch really allows you to stay ahead in worker count, so when you do break the contain you aren't very far behind and you have spine crawlers and 2 queens for any hellion or banshee transition.
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On October 10 2011 04:31 ShiZz wrote:
I was expecting some cool new Korean style with lots of muta and drop agression, fast tech and a lot of midgame planning, but I was left with a subpar replay of a bling allin against a Terran who looks like he has no clue what hes doing.
Namcihr is ranked 75 in NA grand master and he's known to be in the top 16. Sorry you got the wrong impression, but it's a guide to countering the 2rax - I don't think you can get to mutas and drops in time to hold the 2rax ^^. In short, I know this guide will be incredibly helpful to those who have trouble holding against 2rax pressure.
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mid-masters player here, this style definitely works at my level of play. takes some practice, but very effective.
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On October 10 2011 01:54 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:53 Pokebunny wrote:On October 10 2011 01:51 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 01:49 Pokebunny wrote:On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. ... This. If I see a zerg go gas/pool, I hide an SCV on the map and check natural after a minute or two... this would really never work against anyone with a brain. This guide is basically "how to allin and pray your opponent sucks". Good zerg players scout around with speedlings for hidden scvs/probes, players who are good at all-in must scout actively. Eh... I don't think you can deny enough to really kill suspicion of an allin. Well you just need to keep them away from your expansion.
I think i would get suspicious and make 2 bunkers anyway, u can just salvage them you're already ahead.
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The title is so..... misleading. It should be more like, "countering a proxy 2 rax and punishing a greedy terran" 14/14 puts you so behind 1 rax FE, which is pretty common on that map.
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On October 10 2011 04:37 emc wrote: I don't see whats wrong with the build, it's actually quite genius to baneling all-in after a failed 2-rax all-in. He never said it was effective against macro 2 rax but only strong against proxy rax and seriously aggressive 2 rax. Thing is, 2 rax is quite a dead build these days but it's still very cool to see zergs punishing terrans expecting for the 2 rax to not be countered. And his opening statement is kinda correct, because most macro zergs will try to sneak in a drone here and there but that's wrong! you gotta jump the gun like Julyzerg and not a lot of zergs are even trying that.
don't listen to the haters!
My typical response to aggressive 2 rax is usually uber defensive. my first queen spreads creep, I get two spine crawlers and edge my way to the ramp. I end up getting a macro hatch and just drone like crazy, if they invest in bunkers beyond my ramp then I get lings for busting. The macro hatch really allows you to stay ahead in worker count, so when you do break the contain you aren't very far behind and you have spine crawlers and 2 queens for any hellion or banshee transition. A build that could potentially counter a failed 2 rax would be a two base Eco bling bust, not a 1 base baneling all in. Get your hatch up, make a few drones, cut the second queen in favor of a baneling nest, and have at it.
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On October 10 2011 05:15 DoctorFunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 04:37 emc wrote: I don't see whats wrong with the build, it's actually quite genius to baneling all-in after a failed 2-rax all-in. He never said it was effective against macro 2 rax but only strong against proxy rax and seriously aggressive 2 rax. Thing is, 2 rax is quite a dead build these days but it's still very cool to see zergs punishing terrans expecting for the 2 rax to not be countered. And his opening statement is kinda correct, because most macro zergs will try to sneak in a drone here and there but that's wrong! you gotta jump the gun like Julyzerg and not a lot of zergs are even trying that.
don't listen to the haters!
My typical response to aggressive 2 rax is usually uber defensive. my first queen spreads creep, I get two spine crawlers and edge my way to the ramp. I end up getting a macro hatch and just drone like crazy, if they invest in bunkers beyond my ramp then I get lings for busting. The macro hatch really allows you to stay ahead in worker count, so when you do break the contain you aren't very far behind and you have spine crawlers and 2 queens for any hellion or banshee transition. A build that could potentially counter a failed 2 rax would be a two base Eco bling bust, not a 1 base baneling all in. Get your hatch up, make a few drones, cut the second queen in favor of a baneling nest, and have at it.
I haven't experimented too much with that style, Doc, but the method I explained has been tried and true in my experience. I'd like to see replays of your suggestion, though, so I can practice it and maybe incorporate it in this guide.
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I don't think this really deserves a thread, one-base baneling busts have been around as an active decision (as opposed to a reactive one when scouting 2rax) since beta and they're still just as all-in. Back when I was in gold league I used to baneling bust Terrans that didn't know what they were doing with 2 Rax Pressure and just win games with ease. The strategy still works at my level (diamond) and I would be surprised if it didn't work into mid-/high-masters fairly well but any manner of active scouting will deny this. Bunkers are good, one base Zerg is really weak and inflexible.
Nice to bust out in lower level Bo1-Bo3s, but it's not great at all.
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why would anyone try to be aggressive with 2 rax if you're not even trying to get your natural expo as zerg?
As far as i know 2 rax is to trying to kill the natural or at least make the zerg to build defense instead of drones. If the zerg doesnt even go for an early hatch then theres no reason to force other units than drones.
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The two rax weakness is that is has poor transitions but it is very effective at dealling economic damage to the Zerg and a Baneling Bust is an all-in attack that hopes the opposing player cannot deal with Zerglings once the wall-off is broken. Except they'll have two barracks at the wall-off...
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On October 10 2011 04:38 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 04:31 ShiZz wrote:
I was expecting some cool new Korean style with lots of muta and drop agression, fast tech and a lot of midgame planning, but I was left with a subpar replay of a bling allin against a Terran who looks like he has no clue what hes doing. Namcihr is ranked 75 in NA grand master and he's known to be in the top 16. Sorry you got the wrong impression, but it's a guide to countering the 2rax - I don't think you can get to mutas and drops in time to hold the 2rax ^^. In short, I know this guide will be incredibly helpful to those who have trouble holding against 2rax pressure.
namcihr or however you spell it is also known to be extremely cheesy and maybe not the best player... no offense
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so what do you do if he bunkers the bottom of your ramp?
no offense but that replay doesn't deserve a write-up.
namhcir would have been much better off doing what i normally see, which is bunkering the bottom of your ramp. it would force you to use the banes on the bunkers, wouldn't allow his marines to be surrounded, and ultimately, would completely negate this "strategy" you're describing. maybe if nam had played it properly but he didn't. this is like showing a strategy of how to win with a zergling runby when terran doesn't up their depot in time: it doesn't show anything about strategy, it just shows a player messing up, and the other player exploiting that mistake and winning because of it.
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On October 10 2011 06:27 LtCalley wrote: so what do you do if he bunkers the bottom of your ramp? .
You have to bust it with 6 banes.
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something i've been doing against terran players that think they can do 2 rax bunker pressure against me is going double extractor trick 11 pool speedling opener. which is actually what i like to do in a lot of my zvz games, after the initial 6 zerglings you are free to make your queen, drone up til 15-16 ish drones and make an expansion. this has proven quite good for me as the lings come out before the first bunker can finish and i've also found a lot of terran players like to throw down a bunker whether or not you're even trying to expand (although why wouldn't you?)
i think this opener by Tang actually has some potential, even though it may not be a "solid" build. also in the game he uploaded this build worked VERY well since the 2 rax were proxied. if they had've been built in base then it would've been totally ineffective but in my personal opinion (which we are all entitled too) i think he responded correctly. so instead of saying this is bad or whatever (you know who you are) lets say that this is an appropriate response to a extremely proxied 2 rax bunker pressure opener, and leave it at that. lets not say players who are in top 200 NA suck (quite the opposite) and get on with your lives. it's not like any of you are paid to play this game anyway, although you might like to think you deserve to be. (which you don't with attitudes such as the ones displayed in this thread) thanks for the write up tang
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This wouldnt have even countered the 2 rax if the Terran did a better job.
Here is what terran should have done make 2 bunkers at the bottom of the ramp with 1 marine each after scouting the bane nest, pulled the rest of his army except the scvs to repair the bunkers to his base, built another command center and 2 more barracks and started to mass marines then get gas. He would have a production lead, be safe from a baneling bust because it would take so many to bust the first ramp then bust the Terrans base, the terran would then be free to tech. He had all the information required to make these decisions and chose not to.
Also if the Terran wasn't proxy 2 raxing or if the Zerg was going a standard hatch first the 2 rax would have killed him if he didn't delay at least one of them heavily with his drones.
The terran also could have poked more aggressively with his initial marines, but perhaps the Terran in this video didn't have the best control.
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Title isn't very accurate, not sure how 2rax loses to bane bust. Good terrans will eventually scan you if you are still on one base after aggression. Just looks like regular bane bust to me :/
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well it might work quiet well against the 2 barracks play, but a good terran will split their marines baneling safe and maybe have a bunker behind the wallin. Because the baneling bust is so rare nowadays people tend to be to lazy, but generally if you scout the baneling nest early you will prepare for a bust, its only a bit of apm spend and a bunker. The problem with the bust is that you won't have enough lings to beat the marines.
If i play zerg though i love to get the baneling nest up early only a few ressources and the terran will go into wallin mode totally overpreparing for the bust that will never come. But in generall its easy to defend if it comes to early and the terran ever heard something about were to place your bunker against a bust and how to place your marines. But even afters month probably the most rewarding mind game you can do to a terran on ladder .
Its just like playing random, people expect you to cheese overprepare and you are actually cheesing but macro cheese going cc first and stuff like this.
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Wow, what a waste of a thread. Everyone thinking of adopting this style, don't do it. Any terran who actually knows how to play and has experience with executing 2 rax will NOT be aggressive and will just sit back. Baneling busting a 2 raxing player is just as uncertain as baneling busting any other type of opener. The only reason it worked in this instance is because namhcir proxied his barracks halfway across the map, which makes this thread even more laughable as the "hyper-aggressive' style had nothing to do with the victory.
This is probably another instance where tang is being pompous. Honestly, on ladder everytime i play you, despite you losing eighty percent of the matches, you still have the audacity to tell me that my playstyle is incorrect and then chat channel spam me.
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On October 10 2011 08:07 Bobo012893 wrote: Wow, what a waste of a thread. Everyone thinking of adopting this style, don't do it. Any terran who actually knows how to play and has experience with executing 2 rax will NOT be aggressive and will just sit back. Baneling busting a 2 raxing player is just as uncertain as baneling busting any other type of opener. The only reason it worked in this instance is because namhcir proxied his barracks halfway across the map, which makes this thread even more laughable as the "hyper-aggressive' style had nothing to do with the victory.
This is probably another instance where tang is being pompous. Honestly, on ladder everytime i play you, despite you losing eighty percent of the matches, you still have the audacity to tell me that my playstyle is incorrect and then chat channel spam me.
i wouldn't expect any less from someone with a sig like that
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Let's be friendly guys! If you don't like the build, detail exactly what terran can do to prevent it rather than insult people.
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I fail to see anything new about this.
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Assuming your opponent will not scout... furthermore your opponent makes mistakes is wrong in everyway. Not just starcraft. :/ this thread should be closed.
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Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains.
A related rant against any elitist pro-gamers who've ever trashed anyone because, "they know better". + Show Spoiler + (Personally, I wish you all the best, but I think I made a wiser decision to focus on my own future by getting a tangible degree capable of a high probability of landing a decent job, and I seriously hope you all had a backup plan other than, "live in my mom's basement till I get pro". Also, I hate the logical mistakes you guys tend to make, but defend it by, "but I'm pro, so I know what I',m talking about". Perhaps you are good at what you do, but that doesn't make you intelligent and incapable of logical fallacies.)
Anti-Tang: Yes, this is "shameless" promoting of his site (but that's not to say the rest of the content is simply "fluff"). I wish Tang had a followup as to what to do if they're not 2raxxing, such that you can salvage the foregone fast expand. The title and idea of a guide is a bit over the top, perhaps a better idea would be to deliver this as a response to a 2rax (which indeed, is very common in the current metagame, at all league levels), to which some additional non-2rax conditions are discussed, and I really don't like the idea of speedling expand versus terran, if it turns out I have nothing to fear...
I hate, hate, hate, hate, spoilered guides. Learn how to make a guide usingthe BBCode, for Pete's sake! (Here is an example of a well designed guide, using BBCode, and the fact that DuncanIdaho is the author is completely consequential) Notice the anchors and the table of contents: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253647
Pro-Tang: First, this is NOT a 1-base baneling burst build, it appears to be a "what to do if you scout a 2rax" build. There is a HUGE difference there. This is not cheese, it's "Oh, he's cheesing me, time to crush it in its tracks, hopefully teaching them a lesson to not do this, thus changing the metagame so I don't see this bullshit so much anymore."
Honestly, it seems to me, again as a platinum player, that if you do something all-in, there should be a weakness to be exploited, and it makes sense that if you catch wind of an incoming all-in, there should be a way to exploit it such that they lose (What do I know, but apparently the only way to beat Terran is to play standard, while they cheese their little hearts out with wild abandon, and if Zergs try to cheese a cheeser, they deserve to lose? There's either an imbalance there, or there is something Zergs can do, with reasonable reliability, and I personally refuse to believe the game isn't balanced, unless Kawaii, PokeBunny, et al. do? ).
Perhaps this build by Tang works in response to a scouted 2rax, perhaps not, but to be so negative and offer no other alternatives other than, (paraphrased) "Oh, Terran has the RIGHT to cheese you, but you Zergs, no. You must play standard no matter what, anything else anyone tries to tell you is bullshit."
Perhaps Tang should explain more, and have some more replays, but this seems reasonable as a response, given that the bling burst attempt, at worst, doesn't make you insta-lose, but rather maybe slightly behind, though I'm interested, but not quite sold...
~DuncanIdaho
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What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible.
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I really really dont get you Tang i mean no offence but the guides you post on TL is next to useless on high level play The one you posted about Kiwikaki's 'new' sentry heavy 5 gate all in and now this... these are no way new builds and helpful to anyone I wish you would really think and try to help the community instead of shamelessly advertising yourself
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On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote: What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible.
What we really learned from this thread:
Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks.
NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train.
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On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote: What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train.
who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl.
pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl
edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late?
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On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote: What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late?
Kawaii posted earlier. You don't have to win an mlg or gsl to be a pro. o.O
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On October 10 2011 10:38 Indrium wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote:On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote: What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late? Kawaii posted earlier. You don't have to win an mlg or gsl to be a pro. o.O
no, but you should have a better argument when critiquing another players decision making. tell me, right now, what he did wrong? he won the fucking game...how is that bad?
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On October 10 2011 10:40 TheLastGoose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:38 Indrium wrote:On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote:On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote: What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late? Kawaii posted earlier. You don't have to win an mlg or gsl to be a pro. o.O no, but you should have a better argument when critiquing another players decision making. tell me, right now, what he did wrong? he won the fucking game...how is that bad?
I have no idea why you're attacking me. I never posted about the build.
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On October 10 2011 10:41 Indrium wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:40 TheLastGoose wrote:On October 10 2011 10:38 Indrium wrote:On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote:On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote: What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late? Kawaii posted earlier. You don't have to win an mlg or gsl to be a pro. o.O no, but you should have a better argument when critiquing another players decision making. tell me, right now, what he did wrong? he won the fucking game...how is that bad? I have no idea why you're attacking me. I never posted about the build.
how am i attacking you?
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On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote:Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. A related rant against any elitist pro-gamers who've ever trashed anyone because, "they know better". + Show Spoiler + (Personally, I wish you all the best, but I think I made a wiser decision to focus on my own future by getting a tangible degree capable of a high probability of landing a decent job, and I seriously hope you all had a backup plan other than, "live in my mom's basement till I get pro". Also, I hate the logical mistakes you guys tend to make, but defend it by, "but I'm pro, so I know what I',m talking about". Perhaps you are good at what you do, but that doesn't make you intelligent and incapable of logical fallacies.)
Anti-Tang:Yes, this is "shameless" promoting of his site (but that's not to say the rest of the content is simply "fluff"). I wish Tang had a followup as to what to do if they're not 2raxxing, such that you can salvage the foregone fast expand. The title and idea of a guide is a bit over the top, perhaps a better idea would be to deliver this as a response to a 2rax (which indeed, is very common in the current metagame, at all league levels), to which some additional non-2rax conditions are discussed, and I really don't like the idea of speedling expand versus terran, if it turns out I have nothing to fear... I hate, hate, hate, hate, spoilered guides. Learn how to make a guide usingthe BBCode, for Pete's sake! (Here is an example of a well designed guide, using BBCode, and the fact that DuncanIdaho is the author is completely consequential) Notice the anchors and the table of contents: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253647Pro-Tang:First, this is NOT a 1-base baneling burst build, it appears to be a "what to do if you scout a 2rax" build. There is a HUGE difference there. This is not cheese, it's "Oh, he's cheesing me, time to crush it in its tracks, hopefully teaching them a lesson to not do this, thus changing the metagame so I don't see this bullshit so much anymore." Honestly, it seems to me, again as a platinum player, that if you do something all-in, there should be a weakness to be exploited, and it makes sense that if you catch wind of an incoming all-in, there should be a way to exploit it such that they lose (What do I know, but apparently the only way to beat Terran is to play standard, while they cheese their little hearts out with wild abandon, and if Zergs try to cheese a cheeser, they deserve to lose? There's either an imbalance there, or there is something Zergs can do, with reasonable reliability, and I personally refuse to believe the game isn't balanced, unless Kawaii, PokeBunny, et al. do? ). Perhaps this build by Tang works in response to a scouted 2rax, perhaps not, but to be so negative and offer no other alternatives other than, (paraphrased) "Oh, Terran has the RIGHT to cheese you, but you Zergs, no. You must play standard no matter what, anything else anyone tries to tell you is bullshit." Perhaps Tang should explain more, and have some more replays, but this seems reasonable as a response, given that the bling burst attempt, at worst, doesn't make you insta-lose, but rather maybe slightly behind, though I'm interested, but not quite sold... ~DuncanIdaho
I have one useful tidbit besides the fact that I agree with the attitude but not the specific content of your post, Duncan.
For all you Zergs out there that aspire to abuse the Terran thin walls... aim for the middle barracks ffs! The splash radius of the bling is enough to take out BOTH depots. This was a "very" old lesson from beta that somehow got forgotten as we stopped 1basing each other to death.
In fact, bling busting was sooo prevalent back in beta that there was a whole period when people only thickwalled TvZ.
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this is dumb. if i two rax and dont see a expansion i immediately turn around and throw up 2 bunkers with an inbase cc. baneling bust me if you like
the only time where a 1 base baneling bust is a good counter to two rax is if the terran proxied the rax in the middle map. this thread should be closed
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On October 10 2011 10:42 TheLastGoose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:41 Indrium wrote:On October 10 2011 10:40 TheLastGoose wrote:On October 10 2011 10:38 Indrium wrote:On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote:On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote: What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late? Kawaii posted earlier. You don't have to win an mlg or gsl to be a pro. o.O no, but you should have a better argument when critiquing another players decision making. tell me, right now, what he did wrong? he won the fucking game...how is that bad? I have no idea why you're attacking me. I never posted about the build. how am i attacking you?
Edit: Whoops, after PM, it's revealed to be a big misunderstanding. ^^
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On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote:Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. A related rant against any elitist pro-gamers who've ever trashed anyone because, "they know better". + Show Spoiler + (Personally, I wish you all the best, but I think I made a wiser decision to focus on my own future by getting a tangible degree capable of a high probability of landing a decent job, and I seriously hope you all had a backup plan other than, "live in my mom's basement till I get pro". Also, I hate the logical mistakes you guys tend to make, but defend it by, "but I'm pro, so I know what I',m talking about". Perhaps you are good at what you do, but that doesn't make you intelligent and incapable of logical fallacies.)
Anti-Tang:Yes, this is "shameless" promoting of his site (but that's not to say the rest of the content is simply "fluff"). I wish Tang had a followup as to what to do if they're not 2raxxing, such that you can salvage the foregone fast expand. The title and idea of a guide is a bit over the top, perhaps a better idea would be to deliver this as a response to a 2rax (which indeed, is very common in the current metagame, at all league levels), to which some additional non-2rax conditions are discussed, and I really don't like the idea of speedling expand versus terran, if it turns out I have nothing to fear... I hate, hate, hate, hate, spoilered guides. Learn how to make a guide usingthe BBCode, for Pete's sake! (Here is an example of a well designed guide, using BBCode, and the fact that DuncanIdaho is the author is completely consequential) Notice the anchors and the table of contents: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253647Pro-Tang:First, this is NOT a 1-base baneling burst build, it appears to be a "what to do if you scout a 2rax" build. There is a HUGE difference there. This is not cheese, it's "Oh, he's cheesing me, time to crush it in its tracks, hopefully teaching them a lesson to not do this, thus changing the metagame so I don't see this bullshit so much anymore." Honestly, it seems to me, again as a platinum player, that if you do something all-in, there should be a weakness to be exploited, and it makes sense that if you catch wind of an incoming all-in, there should be a way to exploit it such that they lose (What do I know, but apparently the only way to beat Terran is to play standard, while they cheese their little hearts out with wild abandon, and if Zergs try to cheese a cheeser, they deserve to lose? There's either an imbalance there, or there is something Zergs can do, with reasonable reliability, and I personally refuse to believe the game isn't balanced, unless Kawaii, PokeBunny, et al. do? ). Perhaps this build by Tang works in response to a scouted 2rax, perhaps not, but to be so negative and offer no other alternatives other than, (paraphrased) "Oh, Terran has the RIGHT to cheese you, but you Zergs, no. You must play standard no matter what, anything else anyone tries to tell you is bullshit." Perhaps Tang should explain more, and have some more replays, but this seems reasonable as a response, given that the bling burst attempt, at worst, doesn't make you insta-lose, but rather maybe slightly behind, though I'm interested, but not quite sold... ~DuncanIdaho You seem to have a weird understanding of balance. You equate it to each race having the same capabilities rather than each race having capabilities that counteract each other. The fact of the matter is that it is easy as hell to scout a baneling bust. Terran have a myriad of avenues with which they can scout the zerg in the early game. Zerg do not have those capabilities.That's how the game is.
Since beta zergs have been susceptible to one base terrans because we have no way of knowing what they're doing. Many pro zerg players complain about this. But terran DO NOT have this same problem and a build such as this is simply trying to exploit a weakness that terran don't have. There is NO difference between this baneling bust and any other one base baneling bust. If they scout it you lose. If they don't scout it you might win. Personally, i would rather take my chances playing a straight up macro game.
But what do I know I'm not in mensa or have a PhD in statistics.
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So bassically when a terran makes a 3rax wall, or more than 1 bunker at a smart placements behind wall, they won't lose, and this will fail.... I can't believe you wrote such a long guide on baneling busting LOL, i've been doing this since beta.
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I am surprised by the amount of negative and generally immature replys to this thread, especially from the pros. Sure its not the best strategy, but its definitely been more attacked with more hostility then necessary. If it works at the gm level then that means that it works for over 99% of the player base.
Personally I think its silly because the 2rax rush will obviously scout the lack of expansion, but what about if you went pool first for some earlier lings and then dropped your hatch afterwards so that you could cancel it and go for the baneling bust after you beat the rush. Seems like an easy adjustment that could easily work.
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On October 10 2011 01:29 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:26 Grobyc wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Yeah I think you're kind of relying on your opponent not having any game sense or scouting when you execute this. If he does a hellion opening and you open with this build it's going to be pretty inefficient to just transition out and expo. That's why you drone scout, this is a response to 2rax aggression and notably you don't have to put the nest down until after terran moves out. If he sits in his base, you can still expand. Yes, but it delays your expansion a considerable amount until you do scout him, especially if it's a 4player map.
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On October 10 2011 11:20 Bobo012893 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote:Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. A related rant against any elitist pro-gamers who've ever trashed anyone because, "they know better". + Show Spoiler + (Personally, I wish you all the best, but I think I made a wiser decision to focus on my own future by getting a tangible degree capable of a high probability of landing a decent job, and I seriously hope you all had a backup plan other than, "live in my mom's basement till I get pro". Also, I hate the logical mistakes you guys tend to make, but defend it by, "but I'm pro, so I know what I',m talking about". Perhaps you are good at what you do, but that doesn't make you intelligent and incapable of logical fallacies.)
Anti-Tang:Yes, this is "shameless" promoting of his site (but that's not to say the rest of the content is simply "fluff"). I wish Tang had a followup as to what to do if they're not 2raxxing, such that you can salvage the foregone fast expand. The title and idea of a guide is a bit over the top, perhaps a better idea would be to deliver this as a response to a 2rax (which indeed, is very common in the current metagame, at all league levels), to which some additional non-2rax conditions are discussed, and I really don't like the idea of speedling expand versus terran, if it turns out I have nothing to fear... I hate, hate, hate, hate, spoilered guides. Learn how to make a guide usingthe BBCode, for Pete's sake! (Here is an example of a well designed guide, using BBCode, and the fact that DuncanIdaho is the author is completely consequential) Notice the anchors and the table of contents: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253647Pro-Tang:First, this is NOT a 1-base baneling burst build, it appears to be a "what to do if you scout a 2rax" build. There is a HUGE difference there. This is not cheese, it's "Oh, he's cheesing me, time to crush it in its tracks, hopefully teaching them a lesson to not do this, thus changing the metagame so I don't see this bullshit so much anymore." Honestly, it seems to me, again as a platinum player, that if you do something all-in, there should be a weakness to be exploited, and it makes sense that if you catch wind of an incoming all-in, there should be a way to exploit it such that they lose (What do I know, but apparently the only way to beat Terran is to play standard, while they cheese their little hearts out with wild abandon, and if Zergs try to cheese a cheeser, they deserve to lose? There's either an imbalance there, or there is something Zergs can do, with reasonable reliability, and I personally refuse to believe the game isn't balanced, unless Kawaii, PokeBunny, et al. do? ). Perhaps this build by Tang works in response to a scouted 2rax, perhaps not, but to be so negative and offer no other alternatives other than, (paraphrased) "Oh, Terran has the RIGHT to cheese you, but you Zergs, no. You must play standard no matter what, anything else anyone tries to tell you is bullshit." Perhaps Tang should explain more, and have some more replays, but this seems reasonable as a response, given that the bling burst attempt, at worst, doesn't make you insta-lose, but rather maybe slightly behind, though I'm interested, but not quite sold... ~DuncanIdaho You seem to have a weird understanding of balance. You equate it to each race having the same capabilities rather than each race having capabilities that counteract each other. The fact of the matter is that it is easy as hell to scout a baneling bust. Terran have a myriad of avenues with which they can scout the zerg in the early game. Zerg do not have those capabilities.That's how the game is. Since beta zergs have been susceptible to one base terrans because we have no way of knowing what they're doing. Many pro zerg players complain about this. But terran DO NOT have this same problem and a build such as this is simply trying to exploit a weakness that terran don't have. There is NO difference between this baneling bust and any other one base baneling bust. If they scout it you lose. If they don't scout it you might win. Personally, i would rather take my chances playing a straight up macro game. But what do I know I'm not in mensa or have a PhD in statistics.
Bobo, you not having a PhD or being in Mensa is not the problem, I was simply saying that being good at SC2 doesn't mean you know all and anything contrary to your views is obviously wrong, since you (proverbial you as a "pro-gamer", not necessarily anyone in particular) beat most players. For example, Idra thinks there's imba's everywhere, and although I'm a huge fanboy of him, I don't agree the game is imbalanced, simply that his style has problems with these issues, at least from his perspective.
As for my understanding of balance, perhaps we share differing views. But I refuse to believe that Zergs must play macro, and have no viable "cheesey" options, especially when it's responsive cheese to their own cheesy build. Should someone b-burst blindly, ffs no, but if they're not teching, and their wall is vulnerable, why not try? Banshees will be delayed, so that's no problem. So we sac some econ by not expanding fast in order to punish their cheese? Sounds reasonable. Apparently I don't understand balance since I refuse to believe Zergs must play a macro style, and despite this, that makes the game balanced. I argue Zergs can opt for a non-FE, 1-base response, and still be in a commanding position, not necessarily screwed. And personally, if this is not true, I think it is an imba, because it's not fair that Zergs have one viable BO, while all other races can pick and choose. (If you think this means I think SC2 is imba towards Zerg, you're not reading between the lines.)
As for this: "Since beta zergs have been susceptible to one base terrans because we have no way of knowing what they're doing. Many pro zerg players complain about this. But terran DO NOT have this same problem and a build such as this is simply trying to exploit a weakness that terran don't have. There is NO difference between this baneling bust and any other one base baneling bust. If they scout it you lose. If they don't scout it you might win. Personally, i would rather take my chances playing a straight up macro game."
First, why is this true, and is it? Obviously if the spawns are close enough, olord scouts can see inside. Furthermore, if you scout between 9-12 supply, there is a good chance you drone can get in before the wall-off is complete. If your drone is consistently blocked out, you may be scouting too late. And there is a difference between this and "any other one base baneling burst". Tang is advocating a speedling expand, morphed into a b-burst given a 2rax is scouted.
Personally, I say scout early (9-10 supply, later if you're able), and if you see no gas, throw down a gas and a pool and do a speedling expand, you may be able to pressure a Terran early expand, and you'll be prepared for any multi-rax shenanigans. If you see a gas, opt for an FE on 15-16 supply, and play your standard spines&queens(maybe speedlings if you go for 100gas first) defense. But personally, the defense against a 2rax after FE as Zerg is a tad too uncomfortable for my tastes, though I do it anyways, and I have been curious if there are other options...
I'm not saying Tang's is the answer. But I do think a 1base response is theoretically viable, and I'm simply defending the notion that Zergs don't have to simply expo and try their best to absorb the hit.
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This guy hamchir is my hero. Does anyone know where I can get his replays and learn his strategies??
Edit: watched the video. The strategy is pretty crap imo.
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On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote: What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late?
Well, for a list of their accomplishments, and the fact that they even have TL Liquipedia profiles, see here:
KawaiiRice's Profile PokeBunny's Profile
In my eyes, this shows evidence enough that they are pro. Given, age 18 and 16, thus perhaps a tad immature, but despite this, they're pro. So I disagree with your "must have won mlgs/gsls" requirment. But regardless, I think we're on the same side in defending Tang, but I still think despite their BM, KawaiiRice and Pokebunny should not be discounted as "not-pro".
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On October 10 2011 13:16 DuncanIdaho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote:On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote: What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late? Well, for a list of their accomplishments, and the fact that they even have TL Liquipedia profiles, see here: KawaiiRice's ProfilePokeBunny's ProfileIn my eyes, this shows evidence enough that they are pro. Given, age 18 and 16, thus perhaps a tad immature, but despite this, they're pro. So I disagree with your "must have won mlgs/gsls" requirment. But regardless, I think we're on the same side in defending Tang, but I still think despite their BM, KawaiiRice and Pokebunny should not be discounted as "not-pro".
Not to be disrespectful to Pokebunny, But he is by no means, a Pro player, if anything he is a Semi-pro at BEST
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I simply don't get why GM Terrans would not just sit back and go defensive 2 rax when they scout gas-pool. They know that your expo is already delayed, so they're already ahead.
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Tang, you're disgusting. I'm not gonna bother saying anything else because KawaiiRice, Pokebunny and RoyalFlush pretty much covered it all already.
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Speed doesn't finish in time to actually deal with 11/11, so you still need a very solid defense to avoid getting contained. If they scout no expansion, they typically won't bother attacking beyond a small contain. The most common reaction to a contain / lost hatch is a baneling bust, so most terran players are already preparing for that (and some go straight into hellions off 2 gas, making your timing very short). This is a rather silly thread, to be honest.
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On October 10 2011 15:36 oOOoOphidian wrote: Speed doesn't finish in time to actually deal with 11/11, so you still need a very solid defense to avoid getting contained. If they scout no expansion, they typically won't bother attacking beyond a small contain. The most common reaction to a contain / lost hatch is a baneling bust, so most terran players are already preparing for that (and some go straight into hellions off 2 gas, making your timing very short). This is a rather silly thread, to be honest. Also even if Zergs lose their hatchery, some clever zergs have displayed that double expanding is a better response since terrans expect you to all in.(see DRG vs NaDa MLG Raleigh TDA game)
After killing the hatchery, most terrans would proceed to do a 3 tank push as a followup. 11/11 or 12/14 delays the gas of the terran by a lot, hence there is enough time to get to 3 bases and produce enough for the push.(not on all maps tho).
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Bobo, you not having a PhD or being in Mensa is not the problem, I was simply saying that being good at SC2 doesn't mean you know all and anything contrary to your views is obviously wrong, since you (proverbial you as a "pro-gamer", not necessarily anyone in particular) beat most players. For example, Idra thinks there's imba's everywhere, and although I'm a huge fanboy of him, I don't agree the game is imbalanced, simply that his style has problems with these issues, at least from his perspective.
As for my understanding of balance, perhaps we share differing views. But I refuse to believe that Zergs must play macro, and have no viable "cheesey" options, especially when it's responsive cheese to their own cheesy build. Should someone b-burst blindly, ffs no, but if they're not teching, and their wall is vulnerable, why not try? Banshees will be delayed, so that's no problem. So we sac some econ by not expanding fast in order to punish their cheese? Sounds reasonable. Apparently I don't understand balance since I refuse to believe Zergs must play a macro style, and despite this, that makes the game balanced. I argue Zergs can opt for a non-FE, 1-base response, and still be in a commanding position, not necessarily screwed. And personally, if this is not true, I think it is an imba, because it's not fair that Zergs have one viable BO, while all other races can pick and choose. (If you think this means I think SC2 is imba towards Zerg, you're not reading between the lines.)
As for this: "Since beta zergs have been susceptible to one base terrans because we have no way of knowing what they're doing. Many pro zerg players complain about this. But terran DO NOT have this same problem and a build such as this is simply trying to exploit a weakness that terran don't have. There is NO difference between this baneling bust and any other one base baneling bust. If they scout it you lose. If they don't scout it you might win. Personally, i would rather take my chances playing a straight up macro game."
First, why is this true, and is it? Obviously if the spawns are close enough, olord scouts can see inside. Furthermore, if you scout between 9-12 supply, there is a good chance you drone can get in before the wall-off is complete. If your drone is consistently blocked out, you may be scouting too late. And there is a difference between this and "any other one base baneling burst". Tang is advocating a speedling expand, morphed into a b-burst given a 2rax is scouted.
Personally, I say scout early (9-10 supply, later if you're able), and if you see no gas, throw down a gas and a pool and do a speedling expand, you may be able to pressure a Terran early expand, and you'll be prepared for any multi-rax shenanigans. If you see a gas, opt for an FE on 15-16 supply, and play your standard spines&queens(maybe speedlings if you go for 100gas first) defense. But personally, the defense against a 2rax after FE as Zerg is a tad too uncomfortable for my tastes, though I do it anyways, and I have been curious if there are other options...
I'm not saying Tang's is the answer. But I do think a 1base response is theoretically viable, and I'm simply defending the notion that Zergs don't have to simply expo and try their best to absorb the hit.
pros do not know everything, and they are not always right, but they will be right much more often than you are. i think you are not giving them enough credit for the time and effort they are spending in the game. many times when they tell you something does not work, it is through a lot of trial and testing in private, and sometimes it is not feasible to write a huge detailed response for why something does or does not work. they are contributing to the community simply by sharing their hard earned results and attained knowledge.
starcraft is a lot like philosophy and logic, where many smart people dabble in it, but they do not train or have much technical knowledge of the subject matter, yet form strong opinions. being intelligent is great, but someone who is concentrating solely on the game will surpass you both on the performance and theoretical knowledge simply by spending so much more time. pros dismiss a lot of ideas because people rehash ideas they've thought of months ago, and demand proof that the idea is not invalid when the pro was already doing you a favor and saving you the trouble of finding out the hard way. starcraft contains too many smart and accomplished people in other fields, which seems to be where a lot of argument and conflict occur.
anyway, i'd like to add that zerg have a lot of "cheesy" plays that are totally viable and are often used when they spot greedy econ plays. 7 roach busts, nydus worms, baneling busts are all used in the GSL when they scout builds that are vulnerable to it.
the idea that zerg cannot outmacro a terran one base is true, and has been shown time and time again. this isn't an imbalance because the zerg race was designed to have an easier time expanding, and the mule mechanics help a one base terran, while the drone mechanics help a multi-base zerg. just because 1 base to 1 base favors one race does not mean it is imbalanced, because the other race has an easier time getting to multi bases. it's a matter of different strengths versus different weaknesses. if you don't want to macro as zerg, there are those 1 base builds you can use in response to a greedy player, but if they chose to play a defensive macro style, then you have no choice but to play a macro game. it is not much different for terran -- if they want to play a 1 base game and the zerg scouts it and responds appropriately, the terran will have to expand and be behind or just go for an allin and die when it gets inevitably defended.
tldr; pros play for hundreds of thousands and their ideas are generally right because it's their livelihood
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to all that are argueing about wether this is viable or not, (and those who have phd's or whatever), yes this can be viable on prolevel, IF you're good at hiding it and at performing it. The point of the pro's in this thread is only this: Tang is making a long guide about a strategy that is WELLKNOWN and has been around for ages, he didn't even put much work into this guide, it's bad written, he rambles on about HIMSELF and doesn't really give any detailed tips, hell, even in his video he didn't denie the terran scouting the nest, so clearly the terran did play bad. TLDR: Tang is only trying to promote himself in this thread, (and in a very bad way imo, hey, look at me, i'm pro anti-cheeser by cheesing in response). nothing to see here, move along.
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What does this guide accomplish? It tells people who are struggling with 2rax to open blindly with a suboptimal build vT (complete with drone scout, which puts you even further behind against normal play) and then all-in if they see a build which isn't particularly bad against the all-in. Worst of all, it doesn't even tell people how to transition from 14/14 against anything other than a 2rax.
If you want to make a guide to 'hyperaggressive play', you should actually explain a number of different builds/what they are good against. This isn't even a guide to a 1base baneling bust, it's a guide to baneling busting a 2rax. That's so specific it's almost totally worthless (and it's ridiculous that you wrote so much about it).
Why not explain an opener (14/14) and the various different transitions against different terran openers? A complete guide would have proper transitions for each possible opener from the terran; even if that's just "roach all-in a hellion opener" or "baneling bust any gasless play" with appropriate descriptions of each build, it would be a vast improvement.
As it is your guide teaches a suboptimal standard. Going 14/14 and then drone scouting puts you way behind a 14/14 with a ling scout, or a hatch first with a drone scout. If you're going to tell people to do this, tell them what to do with the information. 2rax yes/no isn't enough. Do it properly and the shameless plug of your youtube channel/coaching might actually be acceptable.
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Jehct ->
I thought he is going to such an early scout to make sure it's 2 rax before he opens 14/14, because if this build is 14/14 always no matter of terran opening then it's really BAD.
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Well , the 2 rax will be putting insane pressure on. To hold a 2 rax as soon as I scout it i take all drones off gas and make pure lings. You say to get speed, and banes, off one base? sorry, but you will never have enough to defend the initial pressure the 2 rax brings
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This would work pretty well, though I still believe it is a coin toss as to who would win. Obviously if the Terran is not prepared it will not work, but it is a powerful all-in from Zerg. Firstly though, you would have to defend against the 2 tax aggression, and the Terran, seeing as you have not expanded, may quickly start teching and/or defending, as he would expect a baneling bust or roach rush.
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Hi,
~700pt Diamond Terran here.
My thoughts on this thread:
• Starts edging the Zerg mindset into a more aggressive style, possibly shifting the entire early game vT and vP. Despite the lack of thought and major self-promotion, I believe the main contribution this has made to the community is that it will get Zerg players at every level of SC2 to thinking just a little about how they can be more aggressive. StarCraft changes and evolves continuously and this thread nudges the evolution along a little bit.
• For those of us who have not followed Tang's previous guides, career and have not learned of him before this thread, his conduct in responding to such blatant (imo ban worthy) hate has made me respect and like Tang more then any show of skill in StarCraft. The most powerful attack against Tang would be a tactful, clear and educated stating of their opinions against the value of this thread. As opposed to this: + Show Spoiler +"Tang, you're disgusting. I'm not gonna bother saying anything else because KawaiiRice, Pokebunny and RoyalFlush pretty much covered it all already." zoohairz
• I personally hope that Zerg's in general do not read this thread as it will make me a little more cautious whenever I FE with little or no units hoping that the Zerg decided to only make the standard 4 initial zerglings instead of 6.
tl;dr Grow up StarCraft community, we are playing the most intellectually advanced strategy (very bias here) game that requires continuous re-evaluation of our "set" strategies.
- (prOxi) MultiSniper
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Such a misleading title, I guess you could call an all-in response "Hyper-Aggressive" tho, but a 'counter', really? As mentioned by previous posters this is a strat from way back in beta, there's prolly even a thread about it somewhere in the archives, and it will most likely not be filled with fluff to make it seem more legit than it actually is.
I have no doubt it will work against high-masters/GMs. I'm fairly high master myself on I can honestly say that I make so many mistakes in every single game. But that's also my problem with this guide, it relies on your opponent making a mistake. The proper response from the terran to this is simply this: See no expansion, poke up your ramp with a scv to see what's up, count your gas and if they feel like it bunkerblock below your ramp, leave a few marines in the bunkers and scvs to repair, which forces you to get a spine in range, roaches or banelings to bust out. Meanwhile the terran will just prepare his expansion above his ramp and make a bunker to complete the safe wall-in while transitioning into tanks or whatever, now he is safe from your baneling all-in, so if you still attempt it he wins, if you chose not to do the bust and play standard your second hatch will get up so late, that you will be behind in econ and will have tremendous problems holding the tank/marine follow-up push.
But I dno, I assume you have edited your orginal post since all the negative comments got posted. Cos as it is now it's not a bad guide for a 'cheesy' one base all-in. And we really shouldn't be hating on anyone for even attempting to bring something back to the community, regardless of quality.
Oh, and @DuncanIdaho. Why would you open your post stating your MENSA membership, and college degrees? Being a member of MENSA is pretty bad if you ask me, if you yourself know that you are infact intelligent, why do you feel the need to pay their organisation a membership fee just so you can brag about it? True, noone said intelligent people are humble. And I don't know what amazing entertaining jobs you will land with your masters in statistics, but I dare to go out on a limb and say it isn't going to be nearly as fun as playing SC2 in my moms basement!
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terrans have eyes... they can see u onebaseing. really m8.
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I don't understand why people are discrediting the Tang's opponents. He, and the people he plays, are better than 99.9999% of the SC2 community that post on TL, so if these sort of builds work at a GM level, then saying they won't work against your opponents based on their skill is ridiculous.
Also, a terran who fails at his 2-rax is going to cut corners to catch back up in eco, i.e. most likely skip bunkers in his main in favor of bunkers at his natural once he expands, which this build easily counters as the nat won't even be up yet.
Again, as he has clarified, this build relies on not allowing your opponent to scout your nat, and with early ling speed it should be easy enough. This does leave scan, but how many terrans can afford using 2 scans (1 for nat/1 for main) at the 5-minute mark after being behind? Arguing this point is retarded, that is all.
It's also funny how Kawaii completely discredits a build designed to help the mass majority of the community under-GM. Nowhere does Tang claim that the build is going to work against Terrans like Thorzain or MVP, but rather against high-Masters to low GM and below is what it's designed for. And yea, as someone else in this thread pointed out, Kawaii is at best semi-pro with zero notable tournament wins. Sorry, facts are that not every self-proclaimed SC2 pro who posts mediocre-poor results in tournaments should actually be considered poor. Inb4 "omgz but he beat kiwkiaki"...yea, everyone gets lucky.
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On October 10 2011 13:16 DuncanIdaho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote:On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote: What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late? Well, for a list of their accomplishments, and the fact that they even have TL Liquipedia profiles, see here: KawaiiRice's ProfilePokeBunny's ProfileIn my eyes, this shows evidence enough that they are pro. Given, age 18 and 16, thus perhaps a tad immature, but despite this, they're pro. So I disagree with your "must have won mlgs/gsls" requirment. But regardless, I think we're on the same side in defending Tang, but I still think despite their BM, KawaiiRice and Pokebunny should not be discounted as "not-pro".
if they aren't supporting themselves financially by purely playing starcraft they aren't a "pro"
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On October 10 2011 09:12 TangSC wrote: Let's be friendly guys! If you don't like the build, detail exactly what terran can do to prevent it rather than insult people. Ummm... How exactly do you think they have been discrediting it so far? Edit: Oh I ignored a fair amount of posts that were less than two lines in this thread before posting this...
I like the idea of punishing a 2-rax, but I feel it's more efficient if you did a 15 hatch, kept that alive through the aggression and transitioned into a more kyrixzenex style high eco aggression. This reminds me of Kyrix vs Foxer... possibly my favourite set so far in SC2 history
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LOL another Tang thread. You really are shameless in your advertising attempts aren't you.
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I find that this is only effective when the Terran decides to pursue aggression despite scouting your 14/14.
If I kill 2-3 marines and 2-3 scvs (which you brought out to create a contain), I find that the odds of a successful bust go up exponentially.
If he doesn't press forward with the 2-rax after scouting the 14/14, there is no reason to conduct a baneling bust, and that's (I believe) the point of this guide and thread.
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I thought punishment would be meted out to people who bash or otherwise fail to be respectful of blue posters such as KawaiiRice--as has occured numerous times in this thread. Thoughtful disagreement is always welcome in the forums but we are lucky when we have the participation of high-level players like KR and Pokebunny. Going ad hominem against them ("you haven't won MLGs" "you're semi-pro") is facepalm stupid. I wish the mods would intervene here for the sake of the strat forum.
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On October 11 2011 05:38 sick_transit wrote: I thought punishment would be meted out to people who bash or otherwise fail to be respectful of blue posters such as KawaiiRice--as has occured numerous times in this thread. Thoughtful disagreement is always welcome in the forums but we are lucky when we have the participation of high-level players like KR and Pokebunny. Going ad hominem against them ("you haven't won MLGs" "you're semi-pro") is facepalm stupid. I wish the mods would intervene here for the sake of the strat forum.
All hail the semi-pros right buddy? You must be young to hero worship every person who is pretty good at the game. Those two opened up by showing everyone that they are not respectful, thus everyone bashing them is perfectly within their rights. There is no bow to blue posters infinite wisdom rule.
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On October 11 2011 05:06 ThomasHobbes wrote: I find that this is only effective when the Terran decides to pursue aggression despite scouting your 14/14.
If I kill 2-3 marines and 2-3 scvs (which you brought out to create a contain), I find that the odds of a successful bust go up exponentially.
If he doesn't press forward with the 2-rax after scouting the 14/14, there is no reason to conduct a baneling bust, and that's (I believe) the point of this guide and thread.
Exactly. It's possible to still bust if he isn't aggressive, but it would rely on a lucky timing when he's moving down his ramp and just starting bunkers at his expo. Very risky and poor play to do blind cheese or not have a reason to cheese/all-in. It's much better to do this type of build as a response to scouting or, like you mention, after successfully thwarting the terran aggression/contain.
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On October 11 2011 05:45 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 05:38 sick_transit wrote: I thought punishment would be meted out to people who bash or otherwise fail to be respectful of blue posters such as KawaiiRice--as has occured numerous times in this thread. Thoughtful disagreement is always welcome in the forums but we are lucky when we have the participation of high-level players like KR and Pokebunny. Going ad hominem against them ("you haven't won MLGs" "you're semi-pro") is facepalm stupid. I wish the mods would intervene here for the sake of the strat forum. All hail the semi-pros right buddy? You must be young to hero worship every person who is pretty good at the game. Those two opened up by showing everyone that they are not respectful, thus everyone bashing them is perfectly within their rights. There is no bow to blue posters infinite wisdom rule.
I hardly see how someone writing a thinly veiled advertisement with a strategy that relies on your opponent being stupid and not scouting deserves the respect of other posters, let alone those with a clue about playing the game.
Blue posters may not have infinite wisdom and their tone may not have been exactly appropriate, but they're right. This isn't a "counter to 2rax". It's not "ZvT Hyper-aggression" either. It's a baneling bust. Baneling busts only work if your opponent makes a mistake (1 base, especially) that a silver leaguer can avoid. 2 base eco baneling busts are much stronger with much more room for error.
All a Terran has to do to stop this is send a single uncontested SCV to check your natural. He then throws up bunkers, regardless of whether or not you've gone roach or baneling, expands in his main, and proceeds to win the game.
My Terran is awful, but I could stop this dead simply by double-padding my wall-in (which can be done reactively to scouting banelings coming into your natural).
1 Base Baneling Busts are only good when scouting can be denied 100% and that simply does not happen unless your opponent decides scouting is for squares.
The blue posters are right. This strategy can work, but it's not what I'd call "viable" for ladder or tournament play.
EDIT:
On October 11 2011 06:12 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 05:06 ThomasHobbes wrote: I find that this is only effective when the Terran decides to pursue aggression despite scouting your 14/14.
If I kill 2-3 marines and 2-3 scvs (which you brought out to create a contain), I find that the odds of a successful bust go up exponentially.
If he doesn't press forward with the 2-rax after scouting the 14/14, there is no reason to conduct a baneling bust, and that's (I believe) the point of this guide and thread. Exactly. It's possible to still bust if he isn't aggressive, but it would rely on a lucky timing when he's moving down his ramp and just starting bunkers at his expo. Very risky and poor play to do blind cheese or not have a reason to cheese/all-in. It's much better to do this type of build as a response to scouting or, like you mention, after successfully thwarting the terran aggression/contain.
Just to address this, being aggressive against 14/14 is a huge mistake. You can do enough damage to be put very far in the lead by surrounding and killing his initial Marines and SCVs with regular Zerglings, regardless of whether or not you go for a Baneling oriented strategy.
The only response to scouting that you'll have beyond fighting off an initial (doomed for failure) bunker rush is scouting something silly like a 3x supply depot wall. Some walls beg being baneling busted, but it's not a good opening strategy. Executing the same bust off of a 15 hatch into low econ 2 base play is going to be more effective and isn't completely all-in like this.
"Hey banelings kill buildings" does not a strategy forum thread make.
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On October 11 2011 05:45 statikg wrote:
You must be young...
Ad hominem: last refuge of the ignorant.
There's a reason I don't read many threads on this forum any more.
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I don't understand the reason for all of the argument behind this strategy. I'm sure we've all faced the incredible amount of cheese on ladder. Personally, as a zerg, I wish that I had more all-in strategies for situations like this. I play a lot of games where I properly defend a cheese vs terran, and it takes forever to win the game with solid strategy. In comparison to zvz, when someone tries to cheese, a simple ling counter attack will end the game immediately. Sometimes I would rather do something like this, leave it to a coin flip, and take the certain % of losses.
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On October 11 2011 05:45 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 05:38 sick_transit wrote: I thought punishment would be meted out to people who bash or otherwise fail to be respectful of blue posters such as KawaiiRice--as has occured numerous times in this thread. Thoughtful disagreement is always welcome in the forums but we are lucky when we have the participation of high-level players like KR and Pokebunny. Going ad hominem against them ("you haven't won MLGs" "you're semi-pro") is facepalm stupid. I wish the mods would intervene here for the sake of the strat forum. All hail the semi-pros right buddy? You must be young to hero worship every person who is pretty good at the game. Those two opened up by showing everyone that they are not respectful, thus everyone bashing them is perfectly within their rights. There is no bow to blue posters infinite wisdom rule.
not to mention its 2 terran players tying to defend their own race.
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On October 10 2011 03:07 Cryptos wrote: Oh yeah sure, like zerg need any help against terran i mean seriously, oh im zerg and I can make 90 drones off 4bases in 10 minutes and be just fine then make 80 ultras and then 80 broodlords then slings then infestors for a auto-win every time, how logical eh
User was banned for this post.
Oh look I'm terran and all I need to win against zerg are marines and hellions, then I can win in 6 minutes or less and all I had to do was get 100 gas since everything else only costs minerlas and my mules take care of that and they don't even cost supply !!! yey !!!
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looking at this post reminded me of a very old build is something like
15 hatch 14 pool 14 gas
if you scout 2rax pressure make 2 lings to deny scouting, skip the queen and make a roach warren, get 2 overlords and as soon as warren pops make roaches (skipping ling speed as well). As soon as you stop the 2rax go attack the terran's wall while you get double queens and drones at home, get 100 gas and rest mins until 2 base saturation.
You can get I believe like 10 or 11 roaches and sometimes terran just doesn't have enough to stop you from destroying the depot and getting in his base, if he was going 2rax into hellions this shuts it down quite nice as well and all the while your droning like crazy at home to go a standard macro game.
Anyone here has tried that build against 2rax ?? I won't give my experiences with 2rax cause I'm just gold so it's clear my opponents and I don't execute anything well.
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On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote: What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late?
Wow.... do you even follow the scene?? We should be grateful that KR is posting here, as he is a well-known player. And your first statement is the dumbest thing I've read all week.
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On October 11 2011 09:19 SoKHo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote:On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote: What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late? Wow.... do you even follow the scene?? We should be grateful that KR is posting here, as he is a well-known player. And your first statement is the dumbest thing I've read all week.
he doesn't make a living off of playing starcraft 2, thus not a pro gamer in my eyes. just because you finished 3rd in a decently high end tournament does not instantly make you a pro gamer.
semi pro at best.
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I don't get what the point of this entire guide is, because like others have said you can just sum up the whole thing as: 1 base baneling bust vs 2rax and hope they don't scout it
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On October 11 2011 09:47 ariK wrote: I don't get what the point of this entire guide is, because like others have said you can just sum up the whole thing as: 1 base baneling bust vs 2rax and hope they don't scout it
i think the point of this thread is to let zerg players know that you actually NEED to REACT to what the other players are doing, not just hold of the silly cheesey double/triple bunker at the start and to try expanding behind it? you'd have to be an absolute idiot to think you could come back in that game after having you expand delayed that much.
short story, zerg reacts. in this case it was the right reaction.
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On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote:Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. A related rant against any elitist pro-gamers who've ever trashed anyone because, "they know better". + Show Spoiler + (Personally, I wish you all the best, but I think I made a wiser decision to focus on my own future by getting a tangible degree capable of a high probability of landing a decent job, and I seriously hope you all had a backup plan other than, "live in my mom's basement till I get pro". Also, I hate the logical mistakes you guys tend to make, but defend it by, "but I'm pro, so I know what I',m talking about". Perhaps you are good at what you do, but that doesn't make you intelligent and incapable of logical fallacies.)
Anti-Tang:Yes, this is "shameless" promoting of his site (but that's not to say the rest of the content is simply "fluff"). I wish Tang had a followup as to what to do if they're not 2raxxing, such that you can salvage the foregone fast expand. The title and idea of a guide is a bit over the top, perhaps a better idea would be to deliver this as a response to a 2rax (which indeed, is very common in the current metagame, at all league levels), to which some additional non-2rax conditions are discussed, and I really don't like the idea of speedling expand versus terran, if it turns out I have nothing to fear... I hate, hate, hate, hate, spoilered guides. Learn how to make a guide usingthe BBCode, for Pete's sake! (Here is an example of a well designed guide, using BBCode, and the fact that DuncanIdaho is the author is completely consequential) Notice the anchors and the table of contents: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253647Pro-Tang:First, this is NOT a 1-base baneling burst build, it appears to be a "what to do if you scout a 2rax" build. There is a HUGE difference there. This is not cheese, it's "Oh, he's cheesing me, time to crush it in its tracks, hopefully teaching them a lesson to not do this, thus changing the metagame so I don't see this bullshit so much anymore." Honestly, it seems to me, again as a platinum player, that if you do something all-in, there should be a weakness to be exploited, and it makes sense that if you catch wind of an incoming all-in, there should be a way to exploit it such that they lose (What do I know, but apparently the only way to beat Terran is to play standard, while they cheese their little hearts out with wild abandon, and if Zergs try to cheese a cheeser, they deserve to lose? There's either an imbalance there, or there is something Zergs can do, with reasonable reliability, and I personally refuse to believe the game isn't balanced, unless Kawaii, PokeBunny, et al. do? ). Perhaps this build by Tang works in response to a scouted 2rax, perhaps not, but to be so negative and offer no other alternatives other than, (paraphrased) "Oh, Terran has the RIGHT to cheese you, but you Zergs, no. You must play standard no matter what, anything else anyone tries to tell you is bullshit." Perhaps Tang should explain more, and have some more replays, but this seems reasonable as a response, given that the bling burst attempt, at worst, doesn't make you insta-lose, but rather maybe slightly behind, though I'm interested, but not quite sold... ~DuncanIdaho
Hmmm i wouldnt talk about shameless promotion with a post like that
On topic: I feel that this is a end the game scenario instead of getting further ahead. However ur gonna be in a pinch if they scout and react well. They already have 2 raxes as part of their wall with a 12/14 or even an 11/11 and it doesnt take as much to secure it more from a bust
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote: Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. This is like me lecturing you about statistics. You'll probably think, this undergrad student is totally wrong and he doesn't even know he's wrong. Moral of the story? Respect the people who are on the top of their fields.
Anyways this build doesn't even counter 2 rax. 2 rax is one of the best builds you can do vs a baneling bust.
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On October 11 2011 10:07 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote: Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. This is like me lecturing you about statistics. You'll probably think, this undergrad student is totally wrong and he doesn't even know he's wrong. Moral of the story? Respect the people who are on the top of their fields. Anyways this build doesn't even counter 2 rax. 2 rax is one of the best builds you can do vs a baneling bust.
i reallllllllllly hope you don't think KR or PokeBunny are at the top of their fields...
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lol theres so many haters here. how many crappy strat threads are there? a ton. try to remember starcraft is and has always been about trying new things. now im not a zerg player so i cant really attest to the viability of this strat. and id also like to add im not a huge fan of tang either because of his spamming of teamliquid chan on bnet, it gets annoying. however i saw this thread and said "hmm dont rlly like it so im not gonna post in it." and suddenly i see all these people jumping on the bandwagon just because kawaiirice posted in it. relax people, dont like it? close the tab and move on or state ur case respectfully, this isnt 4chan. that being said, tang, if you truly want to help the community, write some sort of strategy guide which is much more in depth than this one, one could easily find better ones with a quick search, and it will be greatly appreciated. more replays would help too ^^
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On October 11 2011 10:51 HeavenS wrote: lol theres so many haters here. how many crappy strat threads are there? a ton.
...Exactly. Teaching those who don't know how to write a decent strat thread, but (hopefully) have the game knowledge to actually write a useful one, to do so, is good. Thinking "well he formatted it in an understandable way, even if it's useless" and leaving it at that just adds another shitty strat thread to the forum. As it is, I think I've seen maybe 3-4 useful posts in this forum EVER as a zerg player. Considering how many threads there are, that's a painfully sad thought.
On October 11 2011 10:26 TheLastGoose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 10:07 T.O.P. wrote:On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote: Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. This is like me lecturing you about statistics. You'll probably think, this undergrad student is totally wrong and he doesn't even know he's wrong. Moral of the story? Respect the people who are on the top of their fields. Anyways this build doesn't even counter 2 rax. 2 rax is one of the best builds you can do vs a baneling bust. i reallllllllllly hope you don't think KR or PokeBunny are at the top of their fields... They're probably the equivalent of someone with a masters degree.
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On October 10 2011 10:45 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote:Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. A related rant against any elitist pro-gamers who've ever trashed anyone because, "they know better". + Show Spoiler + (Personally, I wish you all the best, but I think I made a wiser decision to focus on my own future by getting a tangible degree capable of a high probability of landing a decent job, and I seriously hope you all had a backup plan other than, "live in my mom's basement till I get pro". Also, I hate the logical mistakes you guys tend to make, but defend it by, "but I'm pro, so I know what I',m talking about". Perhaps you are good at what you do, but that doesn't make you intelligent and incapable of logical fallacies.)
Anti-Tang:Yes, this is "shameless" promoting of his site (but that's not to say the rest of the content is simply "fluff"). I wish Tang had a followup as to what to do if they're not 2raxxing, such that you can salvage the foregone fast expand. The title and idea of a guide is a bit over the top, perhaps a better idea would be to deliver this as a response to a 2rax (which indeed, is very common in the current metagame, at all league levels), to which some additional non-2rax conditions are discussed, and I really don't like the idea of speedling expand versus terran, if it turns out I have nothing to fear... I hate, hate, hate, hate, spoilered guides. Learn how to make a guide usingthe BBCode, for Pete's sake! (Here is an example of a well designed guide, using BBCode, and the fact that DuncanIdaho is the author is completely consequential) Notice the anchors and the table of contents: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253647Pro-Tang:First, this is NOT a 1-base baneling burst build, it appears to be a "what to do if you scout a 2rax" build. There is a HUGE difference there. This is not cheese, it's "Oh, he's cheesing me, time to crush it in its tracks, hopefully teaching them a lesson to not do this, thus changing the metagame so I don't see this bullshit so much anymore." Honestly, it seems to me, again as a platinum player, that if you do something all-in, there should be a weakness to be exploited, and it makes sense that if you catch wind of an incoming all-in, there should be a way to exploit it such that they lose (What do I know, but apparently the only way to beat Terran is to play standard, while they cheese their little hearts out with wild abandon, and if Zergs try to cheese a cheeser, they deserve to lose? There's either an imbalance there, or there is something Zergs can do, with reasonable reliability, and I personally refuse to believe the game isn't balanced, unless Kawaii, PokeBunny, et al. do? ). Perhaps this build by Tang works in response to a scouted 2rax, perhaps not, but to be so negative and offer no other alternatives other than, (paraphrased) "Oh, Terran has the RIGHT to cheese you, but you Zergs, no. You must play standard no matter what, anything else anyone tries to tell you is bullshit." Perhaps Tang should explain more, and have some more replays, but this seems reasonable as a response, given that the bling burst attempt, at worst, doesn't make you insta-lose, but rather maybe slightly behind, though I'm interested, but not quite sold... ~DuncanIdaho I have one useful tidbit besides the fact that I agree with the attitude but not the specific content of your post, Duncan. For all you Zergs out there that aspire to abuse the Terran thin walls... aim for the middle barracks ffs! The splash radius of the bling is enough to take out BOTH depots. This was a "very" old lesson from beta that somehow got forgotten as we stopped 1basing each other to death. In fact, bling busting was sooo prevalent back in beta that there was a whole period when people only thickwalled TvZ.
The reason this is bad is because, say you make 6 banelings, you can't just click a depot then shift click the area where a few marines or scvs might be clumped up. And if you only put 5 on the barracks for the two depots and one dies, you don't kill either one.
If the wall is completely undefended sure, but it's not something you should plan to do blindly, only if the opportunity arises.
On topic though, I completely agree with what pretty much everyone else has said so far, especially royalflush. This build isn't even really useful to anyone. It's not anything new at all....players in high master/gm won't have any use for it because they can actually play macro games and defend 2rax... and lower players won't benefit from this because it's gimmicky and won't improve their actual play.
The entire point of a baneling bust is to catch your opponent off guard if he's teching up. When he has 2 barracks pumping marines, what's the point in busting his wall? He shouldn't be skimping on army if he's going for an expand, and there's no way to tell if he's teching up or playing it safely because he can just hide marines.
No conscious terran at your level should ever lose to this, and just because they are losing doesn't mean it's a good build that people should follow.
You could 6 pool a lot of terrans in GM and win because many will frequently open up with refinery before rax and reactor before marine, which is 100% autoloss to 6 pool. Does that mean 6 pool is a legit counter to fast reactor hellion openings?
I just don't understand why you make these guides at all. You put a decent amount of effort into them, but it seems like it's just a veil for you to make money off coaching low level players by touting the GM rank you never even earned yourself, and only cheese to maintain due to the mechanic of the GM ladder system.
All you're doing is hurting people who want to get better and come to this forum for tactical advice, and drawing the ire of better players who don't want to see that happen. It's not fair to the bad players either who don't know any better and will say "hmm, you're GM, that means this must be an awesome build" and will spend time learning and perfecting this build that as most of the posters in this thread have already said, isn't very good.
On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote: Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains.
Being intelligent isn't a necessary condition for being knowledgable at starcraft, or being a member of Mensa, or even being in graduate school studying statistics. Math ability is largely a function of time, mensa is a function of time spent on gimmicky puzzles and willingness to shell out $50/year for a badge, but more importantly starcraft itself is also largely a function of time spent practicing. The other major factor of course is the actual game knowledge. (I studied applied statistics in graduate school before moving to korea last year and also would consider myself a fairly intelligent person.)
One of the primary reasons people are instantly critical of Tang is because he routinely does this kind of stuff for self-promotion. But another reason is because these guides all lack in quality. This isn't innovative at all and is easily stopped with basic awareness. What Tang as a person really has going for him is that he's charismatic and a pretty good writer. He's good at crafting a narrative he likes, and an intelligent (but unknowledgable) player will pick up on that and think "hey I should try this out" and get suckered into thinking this is some high level strategy that simply isn't at all.
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ya so the vod just proves that this is a good build when ur opponent a) doesnt choose to actually make marines off of 2 rax, and b) tries to go 2 port banshees with no defense whatsoever..... great guide
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Hey - GSL Season 1 called, they want their build order back.
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On October 11 2011 19:11 aquanda wrote: Hey - GSL Season 1 called, they want their build order back.
It's not about the build order, it's about using it as a response to the 2rax pressure.
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On October 12 2011 00:23 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 19:11 aquanda wrote: Hey - GSL Season 1 called, they want their build order back. It's not about the build order, it's about using it as a response to the 2rax pressure.
You're behind if you 14/14 against a 2Rax that you scout unless they sacrifice their marines to your early Zerglings freely, a smart Terran would just pull back (and they'd have this opportunity because their scouting SCV would see your lack of expansion).
Any Zerg 1 base play = Build Bunkers and win after you hold the all-in. You can't deny scouting of your natural efficiently enough against a player actually playing well. This isn't a good response. It makes more sense to do as a build against a banshee build, as well. Proper 2 rax management means they have the units and resources to defend against it handily.
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On October 12 2011 00:38 CapnAmerica wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 00:23 TangSC wrote:On October 11 2011 19:11 aquanda wrote: Hey - GSL Season 1 called, they want their build order back. It's not about the build order, it's about using it as a response to the 2rax pressure. You're behind if you 14/14 against a 2Rax that you scout unless they sacrifice their marines to your early Zerglings freely, a smart Terran would just pull back (and they'd have this opportunity because their scouting SCV would see your lack of expansion). Any Zerg 1 base play = Build Bunkers and win after you hold the all-in. You can't deny scouting of your natural efficiently enough against a player actually playing well. This isn't a good response. It makes more sense to do as a build against a banshee build, as well. Proper 2 rax management means they have the units and resources to defend against it handily.
talk about a lack of game sense. the whole point of this thread is that if your oppoenent delays your expansion for such a long time with their cheesey bunker + 2 rax play then you shouldn't try and expand when you're already going to be so far behind...
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On October 11 2011 10:07 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote: Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. This is like me lecturing you about statistics. You'll probably think, this undergrad student is totally wrong and he doesn't even know he's wrong. Moral of the story? Respect the people who are on the top of their fields. Anyways this build doesn't even counter 2 rax. 2 rax is one of the best builds you can do vs a baneling bust.
I respect people at the top, however I don't let them spout off bullshit, just because they're at the top. Remember, top DOES NOT EQUAL perfect. I was rather attacking their logical fallacies, not their game sense. True, they may be right that this is "easily countered", at least at their level, but their supporting arguments and immature reasoning is questionable, keep in mind these 2 guys are teenagers, so I can understand the mistakes, but don't think you need to worship the shit in their toilets just because they're in the pro-scene. Many people at the tops of their fields have made mistakes, and if you don't agree, and rather think they're always right, then you need to open your eyes and pay attention. E.g., Is Earth the center of the universe? Well the "infallible" experts at the top of their field once thought so...
Okay, if a student tried to tell me I made a mistake, given, I will be very skeptical. However, I don't generally take an idea they have, say it's completely rediculous, and then make some logical fallacy. In the past, I have actually had students say, "Oh, but what about so and so?" To which I reply, "You know, I didn't think of it that way, here's what I was thinking, blah blah blah, but what you propose could be true under the following circumstances, blah blah blah, which I wasn't considering earlier."
However, yes, many times they are wrong, but that's another fallacy to assume I'm thus always right.
For a nice list of common logical fallacies, click here.
To me, the fallacy made was the Red Herring, in which Tang proposes baneling burst as a response to the 2rax, not as a blind build (although speedling expand as a blind build is questionable, though not completely unreasonable, I'll admit). To which KawaiiRice discounts the whole thing with:
On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading
I was simply arguing, that despite his pro-gamer standing (or semi-pro if you have rediculously strict standards for what defines, "pro"), he's discounting this as, Oh that's just a b-burst, and we all know b-bursts suck hardcore. Given, they do, when executed blindly, but I fail to see how KR's point implies there is never a good time to do a b-burst. If there is no 2 rax wall off, in fact a b-burst-able walloff (e.g., depots) and of course, you scouted this before deciding to blindly b-burst, it seems inadequate to discount this, especially using a Red Herring argument.
This, is a better argument:
On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this.
However, KR, is still making a fallacy, one which I'll refer to as improper allocation of his Bayesian priors. For more on Bayesian priors...
(It would take several years of study to fully understand Bayesian priors, but in leyman's terms, their essentially the prior probabilities of events, before a decision is made. E.g, say you think if you go to Israel that it's more likely to die from a terrorist attack while there than a car accident. You are wrong, the probabilty of death from terrorist attacks are much lower than the common car wreck, but due to the inproportionate media coverage, we generally ascribe a higher probability to the terrorist attack death than it is due.)
Given, they can make bunkers and make life difficult, given the map (and knowledge of which ramps allow for this and proper sim-city layout is important, something I do not, admittedly, fully grasp). However, to assume that this is a "coin-flip" implies 50% of the games you play, they will do this. I think the point Tang was making is that low-level players in fact, do not do this consistently (much less 50%), and thus this can be exploited until one reaches the point at which in the ladder, such strategies are no longer effective. Perhaps at his level the bunker response is 99% of the time, but that doesn't mean low-level players will have low success.
Again, a similar good point, but with the same fallacy of improper allocation of Bayesian priors:
On October 10 2011 01:49 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. ... This. If I see a zerg go gas/pool, I hide an SCV on the map and check natural after a minute or two... this would really never work against anyone with a brain. This guide is basically "how to allin and pray your opponent sucks".
Key point Pokebunny: You said you would do this. Well, SC2 is not, who can beat Pokebunny, but more of a game of can you climb higher on the ladder than the "less than Pokebunny" players out there.
Basically, this is my point: Although this strategy may not work at the pro-level, it obviously seems to work for Tang's past (he is GM, albeit approximately rank 200 or so...), and thus we might as well do it until the meta-game shifts at all levels in which Terrans, across leagues, begin to wise up. And, pro-level players need to be a little less arrogant, and realize yes, we value their insights, but please do not assume that what doesn't work at your level, can never work at ours. Perhaps we can use these strategies to climb up the ladder, and once they stop working, we'll have to adjust, as with all things.
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On October 12 2011 00:50 TheLastGoose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 00:38 CapnAmerica wrote:On October 12 2011 00:23 TangSC wrote:On October 11 2011 19:11 aquanda wrote: Hey - GSL Season 1 called, they want their build order back. It's not about the build order, it's about using it as a response to the 2rax pressure. You're behind if you 14/14 against a 2Rax that you scout unless they sacrifice their marines to your early Zerglings freely, a smart Terran would just pull back (and they'd have this opportunity because their scouting SCV would see your lack of expansion). Any Zerg 1 base play = Build Bunkers and win after you hold the all-in. You can't deny scouting of your natural efficiently enough against a player actually playing well. This isn't a good response. It makes more sense to do as a build against a banshee build, as well. Proper 2 rax management means they have the units and resources to defend against it handily. talk about a lack of game sense. the whole point of this thread is that if your oppoenent delays your expansion for such a long time with their cheesey bunker + 2 rax play then you shouldn't try and expand when you're already going to be so far behind...
I'm not sure what you're talking about, really. By the time my hatchery pops with a 15 hatch I've usually deflected the 2Rax Bunker rush. If they commit beyond that point then they lose more stuff and then proceed to lose the game to my followup. 14/14 results in a really late expansion, 15 hatch is the 'best' expansion build we've got right now, and 11Overpool/18Hatch gasless works for defending a 2 rax before scouting comes into play while preserving a nearly equal economic advantage. I don't see why I'd waste gas on early tech that can only be used for a weak and easily defended all-in.
EDIT:
Again, a similar good point, but with the same fallacy of improper allocation of Bayesian priors: Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:49 Pokebunny wrote:On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. ... This. If I see a zerg go gas/pool, I hide an SCV on the map and check natural after a minute or two... this would really never work against anyone with a brain. This guide is basically "how to allin and pray your opponent sucks". Key point Pokebunny: You said you would do this. Well, SC2 is not, who can beat pokebunny, but more of a game of can you climb higher on the ladder than the "less than Pokebunny" players out there. Basically, this is my point: Although this strategy may not work at the pro-level, it obviously seems to work for Tang's past (he is GM, albeit approximately rank 200 or so...), and thus we might as well do it until the meta-game shifts at all levels in which Terrans, across leagues, begin to wise up. And, pro-level players need to be a little less arrogant, and realize yes, we value their insights, but please do not assume that what doesn't work at your level, can never work at ours. Perhaps we can use these strategies to climb up the ladder, and once they stop working, we'll have to adjust, as with all things.
Most specifically:
Key point Pokebunny: You said you would do this. Well, SC2 is not, who can beat pokebunny, but more of a game of can you climb higher on the ladder than the "less than Pokebunny" players out there.
ANYBODY CAN DO THIS. Basic scouting is a requirement for progressing in SC2, seeing if your opponent has or has not expanded is critical to progressing. We don't write strategy threads for gold league or lower viable strategies, we write threads for strategies that can work reasonably at any level of play, especially when information can be actively denied to strengthen the build.
14/14 is a weak build in ZvT, and that's all that it is. It also really sucks in ZvP, in my opinion. I watched TypePhoeNix the other day and his 14/14/21 put him in dire straits against a close air Protoss who opted for 3 Gate Pressure. Zergling Speed before Hatch just doesn't work out that well in most cases for ZvP or ZvT.
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I'm a masters level zerg and here are some things I've learned after reading this thread:
1. NA GM apparently has a lot of terrible players who can only cheese or can't properly scout and defend against cheese.
2. When you are making a thread in the teamliquid Strategy forum you can shamelessly promote yourself and provide terrible strategy advice.
3. People will defend you and your terrible advice as long as you use a polite and positive tone. Conversely, people will dismiss the feedback of experienced players if their tone is less than polite.
4. Some people have a lot of time to waste. For example, TangSC for making this guide, and myself for reading and responding to his post.
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On October 12 2011 01:06 Tunzi wrote: I'm a masters level zerg and here are some things I've learned after reading this thread:
1. NA GM apparently has a lot of terrible players who can only cheese or can't properly scout and defend against cheese.
2. When you are making a thread in the teamliquid Strategy forum you can shamelessly promote yourself and provide terrible strategy advice.
3. People will defend you and your terrible advice as long as you use a polite and positive tone. Conversely, people will dismiss the feedback of experienced players if their tone is less than polite.
4. Some people have a lot of time to waste. For example, TangSC for making this guide, and myself for reading and responding to his post.
so what was the point of the last.... point?
are you blaming some people for not having to work/choosing not to? are you that bitter? are you the all powerful who decides who is wasting their time? shouldn't it be up to the individual to decide whether or not their time is being wasted? if #4 is correct, this website, is, and always has been a giant waste of time...after all, it's a website solely dedicated to a game...
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On October 11 2011 06:58 sick_transit wrote:Ad hominem: last refuge of the ignorant. There's a reason I don't read many threads on this forum any more.
Lol I love people who try to sound smart and then make a super ironic post like this.
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On October 12 2011 00:23 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 19:11 aquanda wrote: Hey - GSL Season 1 called, they want their build order back. It's not about the build order, it's about using it as a response to the 2rax pressure. How is it a response? The pressure is over by the time you commit to an all in baneling bust. The reason you go gas/pool is to get enough zerglings and the early speed to defend the scv/marine pressure. Once speed finishes if he hasn't run home you're at a huge advantage already so why would you throw it away by going all in?
I won't even touch on the fact that unless you scout on 8 or 9, you can't know if he's going 2 rax by the time you need to start your gas/pool. And even if you (for some retarded reason) do scout that early, you'll only see it in time if it's a 2 player map or you are lucky enough to scout him first.
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"ad hominem" is quite relevant though, attacking the person by calling them names or what not, and using that as a defense for the argument you are making, which sadly, seems the case.
Taken from the website I linked, here's an example of ad hominem:
1Person A makes claim X. 2Person B makes an attack on person A. 3Therefore A's claim is false.
Basically, this is illogical. It may very well be that Person A is wrong, but saying he's stupid and thus wrong is illogical. Dumb people are sometimes right, perhaps not for the right reasons, though, but it doesn't support your side to make an ad hominem attack. True, attacking one's credibility on a topic is bad news for the other person, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong. And worse, when an attack is baseless, such as, well I think you're stupid, thus you're wrong.
Regardless though, I think this thread has sadly degenreated.... Perhaps the main thing people learned is to not always accept things someone says, by their authority, but don't necessarily reject it either. Personally, I think that although there was a great oppurtunity to discuss and theorycraft why or why not Tang's strategy is viable, unfortunately we're not, as a community, intellectually capable of such a discussion since we don't even have the capacity to debate without resorting to being illogical and calling each other names...
Does b-burst wrok in response to a 2rax? I don't know, and this thread has not demonstrated a reasonable answer, other than uncertainty.
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On October 12 2011 00:23 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 19:11 aquanda wrote: Hey - GSL Season 1 called, they want their build order back. It's not about the build order, it's about using it as a response to the 2rax pressure.
im sorry but its a bad build. its basically a 1 base all in coin flip build just as kawaii already mentioned. its no diffrent from a toss pure cannon rushing a dark corner of ur base..... if terran doesnt scout he MIGHT loose. if terran does scout it he will win 100%
this build shouldnt be reccomended to anyone. ive done this build myself in beta and during the first few months of SC2 release to know how bad it is. infact the reason it became outdated was because terrans started to wall off with both there racks and a factory or just put a bunch of buildings near there ramp to prevent this. as a result the zerg just stopped doing this because it became easier and easier to stop.
the reason GMs like u are winning games with this build is because of its cheese factor. no one expects it. like i said, no diffrent from a pure cannon rush or a 2 gate proxy in ur main.
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On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading
ya this is silly. Nam just erred
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I lol'd when I saw the proxy 2 rax game was against Richman. Who would have guessed. lololol.
But seriously though, unless you're playing against someone who you know is going to 2 rax, I think opening up with speedling isn't great. Sure, if he does 2 rax you're in good position, but that's just completely ignoring the fact that he could go reactor hellion and then you're pretty behind.
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I'm going to weigh in: In case you all missed it, Tang has pretty regularly posted aggressive responses to standard play. If you make mistakes against them, you die. While they are not for use in expert play, neither are 7 Roach Rushes, LIGHTNING RAGNAROK MAJESTY, etcetera.
His elaborate dissection of the 14/14 BO in ZvT is fantastic, though, and worth reading for everybody. So let's let calmer heads prevail, and take this for what it is: a very dangerous all-in that can punish a 2-rax if the defender screws up.
However, I really have to weigh in on...
On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote:I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. ... However, KR, is still making a fallacy, one which I'll refer to as improper allocation of his Bayesian priors. For more on Bayesian priors... (It would take several years of study to fully understand Bayesian priors, but in leyman's terms, their essentially the prior probabilities of events, before a decision is made. E.g, say you think if you go to Israel that it's more likely to die from a terrorist attack while there than a car accident. You are wrong, the probabilty of death from terrorist attacks are much lower than the common car wreck, but due to the inproportionate media coverage, we generally ascribe a higher probability to the terrorist attack death than it is due.)
Here's a life tip, in the spirit of the life-hack thread:
It take a pretty bright person to get a degree in statistics. But a genuinely intelligent person knows where and when to bring it up. You're taking the long, long road to make yourself sound smart. Which, on the internet, probably ends up not being worth it - instead, make a good, open-minded argument that's accessible.
Your entire point regarding Kawaii's second point could have been phrased: It's not necessarily accurate to assume that your opponent is going to be good enough to choose the correct response. While at a certain level this may be a fair assumption, for a lot of readers of the strat forum, this isn't true.
Just a tip, from a guy who used to sound similar!
-Cross
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On October 12 2011 03:35 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +like i said, no diffrent from a pure cannon rush or a 2 gate proxy in ur main. You commit a proxy 2gate or a pure cannon rush at the very start of the game. This "build" is a response to something the opponent does. Therefore, this is definitely different to a pure cannon rush or a proxy 2gate. (I'm not saying this "build" is good.)
a 2 gate proxy can be in response to a hatch first or gasless expand. so i dont see ur point.
also u have to commit to this 1 base baneling build. iff it doesnt do significant damage with the first set of banelings then u auto loose. u cant expect to go this build, do minimum damage, and then easily transition out of it. it doesnt work that way. U HAVE to do significant damage or loose the g ame.
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DuncanIdaho You are epic. Overall I find this to be really interesting, as an somewhat assured all-in kill can be much more beneficial than trying to recover from a damaging bunker rush but I have one question -
Under what circumstances would you take your nat before busting and under what circumstances would you just all-in off 1 base?
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I'm confused, this is just a basic 1 base baneling all in. It's been around since beta when dimaga won a whole tournament just doing this. I don't really see how an all in is an effective counter to a standard terran opening. I think there doesn't exist hard counters to standard builds.
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On October 12 2011 04:31 Numy wrote: I'm confused, this is just a basic 1 base baneling all in. It's been around since beta when dimaga won a whole tournament just doing this. I don't really see how an all in is an effective counter to a standard terran opening. I think there doesn't exist hard counters to standard builds.
What I meant was dealing with 2rax by counter attacking, not that the build is a guaranteed 100% counter to the 2rax that'll win every time. The thread title has letter limits.
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On October 12 2011 04:36 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 04:31 Numy wrote: I'm confused, this is just a basic 1 base baneling all in. It's been around since beta when dimaga won a whole tournament just doing this. I don't really see how an all in is an effective counter to a standard terran opening. I think there doesn't exist hard counters to standard builds. What I meant was dealing with 2rax by counter attacking, not that the build is a guaranteed 100% counter to the 2rax that'll win every time. The thread title has letter limits.
ur better off defending ur natural from the 2 rax then baneling busting off of 2 base after the 2 raxs FAILS rather then just going straight banelings off of 1 base.....
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The time the decision for 1 base baneling is made is essentially when you don't take drones off of gas after getting speed. This is easily scouted by an SCV because there are no lings on the field yet, and even after lings are on the field it is very hard to deny the scouting of the lack of the expansion, especially on a map with an open natural like Xel naga caverns. This bust is ridiculous and will only work against players that have little experience against it. This guide is ridiculous because it is common knowledge and Tang is trying to take credit for it.
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will this work if you went pool first? i think gas first is absolutely worthless in all situations except for zvz.
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On October 12 2011 05:48 Tal0n wrote: will this work if you went pool first? i think gas first is absolutely worthless in all situations except for zvz.
ya, until you face someone with hella marine micro and all you have are slow lings :S
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On October 12 2011 05:34 Carmine wrote: The time the decision for 1 base baneling is made is essentially when you don't take drones off of gas after getting speed. This is easily scouted by an SCV because there are no lings on the field yet, and even after lings are on the field it is very hard to deny the scouting of the lack of the expansion, especially on a map with an open natural like Xel naga caverns. This bust is ridiculous and will only work against players that have little experience against it. This guide is ridiculous because it is common knowledge and Tang is trying to take credit for it.
double post, i know.
but did you guys know, if you HOLD DOWN A KEY WHILE BUILDING UNITS IT WILL QUE ALL THE LARVAS INTO THAT UNIT.
taking credit.
basically everything is common knowledge now.
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On October 12 2011 05:48 Tal0n wrote: will this work if you went pool first? i think gas first is absolutely worthless in all situations except for zvz.
I've had games where I went pool first and won with this style, for sure, but in the situations where they get a double wall-in you may find yourself wishing you had that extra gas to bust.
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Tang, nevermind the haters bro.. As I see it, with your posts and your dedication is that your actually trying to help the community with some general gameplay, the mindset and the whatnot.
I personally think its great what you're doing, I for one have had massive help with stuff that you've written.. Granted that it might not work on high calibre players as you've said, I think its still a viable thing to do.
I'm sure plenty of people will find this useful. Keep at it bro!
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High master terran player here. One-base baneling bust, in my eyes, is an extremely easy build to hold with a 2rax, especially if you use the 2rax+ depot/bunker wall. If your opponent actually tries to stay out on the map for any lengthy period of time with only marines vs. a one-base zerg then he probably deserves to lose the game anyway, but if he actually responds correctly you'll enjoy getting made to look like a fool every time you try and do this.
Guide's well-structured though, and the build makes sense and all so props for that, but you're basically just relying on your opponent making a mistake, so I wouldn't personally recommend the use of this build highly, especially if I were coaching.
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On October 12 2011 09:00 GGPope wrote: If your opponent actually tries to stay out on the map for any lengthy period of time with only marines vs. a one-base zerg then he probably deserves to lose the game anyway, but if he actually responds correctly you'll enjoy getting made to look like a fool every time you try and do this.
Quite a few players blindly open 11/11, proxy 2rax, or maka-rax in TvZ. Some players even do more economic 2rax and will still try to move out and do some damage, while greedily moving towards a fast CC. Some players even do variations of the 3rax marine/scv all-in.
You can punish these types of strategies by going for a baneling bust, and win a good percentage of the time.
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not at all new. in fact, i posted a nearly identical build nearly a month ago and got ranted at because its a build thats been done SINCE BETA
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To think that all this brouhaha could have been avoided if you didn't include the link about your website...
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On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading
This.
I'm sorry, but this guide/build relies on your opponent being bad and not seeing this coming a mile away.
An offensive 2 rax can quickly become a defensive 2 rax in this situation if scouted...which you said this build doesn't work well against. In which case, why even try it in the first place?
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On October 12 2011 15:33 Amaterasu1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading I'm sorry, but this guide/build relies on your opponent being bad and not seeing this coming a mile away. Untrue, I estimate I've won about 70% of matches against aggressive 2rax builds using this counter attack at the high master / grand master level. It's more difficult than you think to scout it, and so many players will just throw up their command center after losing the initial engagement.
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On October 12 2011 19:54 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 15:33 Amaterasu1234 wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading I'm sorry, but this guide/build relies on your opponent being bad and not seeing this coming a mile away. Untrue, I estimate I've won about 70% of matches against aggressive 2rax builds using this counter attack at the high master / grand master level. It's more difficult than you think to scout it, and so many players will just throw up their command center after losing the initial engagement.
How is it difficult to send an SCV scout into the Zerg's natural or main? By the time your speed finishes you will have dropped the Baneling Nest in advance... slowlings won't completely stop him from seeing you have no hatchery unless he makes a big mistake.
When you say you've won 70% of your matches against aggressive 2 rax builds, what you're really saying is "I've won 70% of my games against people who try to attack into a 1 base Zerg instead of just defending and getting ahead." You should never attack someone doing 14/14 with a 2 rax -- send in your SCV to bunker rush first and if they hatchery isn't there, you simply pull back your marines. If you fail to do this, you lose your SCV, bunkers, and marines to early mass zerglings, at the least. Even if you chose not to attack at that point, you've eliminated any chance of the Terran doing early game damage to you and you can deny his expansion for a very long time with the Lings you've produced.
There's just no way for you to beat someone who opens 2rax with this unless they play in a very risky manner that simply doesn't reward them.
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On October 12 2011 03:59 Crosswind wrote:I'm going to weigh in: In case you all missed it, Tang has pretty regularly posted aggressive responses to standard play. If you make mistakes against them, you die. While they are not for use in expert play, neither are 7 Roach Rushes, LIGHTNING RAGNAROK MAJESTY, etcetera. His elaborate dissection of the 14/14 BO in ZvT is fantastic, though, and worth reading for everybody. So let's let calmer heads prevail, and take this for what it is: a very dangerous all-in that can punish a 2-rax if the defender screws up. However, I really have to weigh in on... Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote:I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. ... However, KR, is still making a fallacy, one which I'll refer to as improper allocation of his Bayesian priors. For more on Bayesian priors... (It would take several years of study to fully understand Bayesian priors, but in leyman's terms, their essentially the prior probabilities of events, before a decision is made. E.g, say you think if you go to Israel that it's more likely to die from a terrorist attack while there than a car accident. You are wrong, the probabilty of death from terrorist attacks are much lower than the common car wreck, but due to the inproportionate media coverage, we generally ascribe a higher probability to the terrorist attack death than it is due.) Here's a life tip, in the spirit of the life-hack thread: It take a pretty bright person to get a degree in statistics. But a genuinely intelligent person knows where and when to bring it up. You're taking the long, long road to make yourself sound smart. Which, on the internet, probably ends up not being worth it - instead, make a good, open-minded argument that's accessible. Your entire point regarding Kawaii's second point could have been phrased: It's not necessarily accurate to assume that your opponent is going to be good enough to choose the correct response. While at a certain level this may be a fair assumption, for a lot of readers of the strat forum, this isn't true. Just a tip, from a guy who used to sound similar! -Cross
Eh, perhaps, but according to the FFI ("five factor inventory" personality test), I rank low on modesty, and high on grandiosity. Thus, I'm probably a narcissist, but meh... Modesty may be "proper", but I think it's overrated. Essentially, there's 3 factors to any argument, pathos, ethos, logos, or, as I understand the translation, emotion, credibility, and logic. I was simply showing not only logic, but credibility as well. As for emotions, perhaps that was there, but I tried to suppress those as much as possible... Yes, your life tip is good if your goal is to be liked, but my goal was to make a point, a point I felt was worth making, not necessarily avoid making enemies. But thank you, regardless.
<3 ~DI
PS- Also, my wife, who is a special education teacher, believes I have an undiagnosed case of Asperger's Autism, which may explain a lot, though I don't know... In any case, if so, I'm low, I think, but perhaps high functioning enough to compensate. Though such people are generally low in ability to make wise social decisions, yet I don't feel I can't make them, rather that I just don't see the point in them, in many cases.
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On October 12 2011 22:37 CapnAmerica wrote:
You should never attack someone doing 14/14 with a 2 rax -- send in your SCV to bunker rush first and if they hatchery isn't there, you simply pull back your marines.
There's just no way for you to beat someone who opens 2rax with this unless they play in a very risky manner that simply doesn't reward them.
Well people still do risky 2rax styles, and over-commit to aggression so I'm saying in those situations counterattacking with ling/bane is viable. If they just pull back and play defensive when they see no expo, and you CAN'T surround their marines on the way back, then yes just expand and move into 2base play.
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On October 13 2011 01:11 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 22:37 CapnAmerica wrote:
You should never attack someone doing 14/14 with a 2 rax -- send in your SCV to bunker rush first and if they hatchery isn't there, you simply pull back your marines.
There's just no way for you to beat someone who opens 2rax with this unless they play in a very risky manner that simply doesn't reward them. Well people still do risky 2rax styles, and over-commit to aggression so I'm saying in those situations counterattacking with ling/bane is viable. If they just pull back and play defensive when they see no expo, and you CAN'T surround their marines on the way back, then yes just expand and move into 2base play.
But all that shows is that horribly messing up as a Terran player will make you lose games. It's like attacking with 20 lings into a perfect bunkered simcity at the natural. You're going to lose all of them and accomplish little.
Yes, knowing that you can baneling bust and win a game if you're hugely ahead is nice, but one base baneling busts are easily scouted and only powerful enough to win against players who play badly to begin with. This strategy will only work against inferior opponents or people who just blatantly don't scout and react to what they scout. 2 Base Baneling Bust is much more powerful and has much more room for error -- skipping that extra base makes you weaker.
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On October 13 2011 01:42 CapnAmerica wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:11 TangSC wrote:On October 12 2011 22:37 CapnAmerica wrote:
You should never attack someone doing 14/14 with a 2 rax -- send in your SCV to bunker rush first and if they hatchery isn't there, you simply pull back your marines.
There's just no way for you to beat someone who opens 2rax with this unless they play in a very risky manner that simply doesn't reward them. Well people still do risky 2rax styles, and over-commit to aggression so I'm saying in those situations counterattacking with ling/bane is viable. If they just pull back and play defensive when they see no expo, and you CAN'T surround their marines on the way back, then yes just expand and move into 2base play. But all that shows is that horribly messing up as a Terran player will make you lose games. It's like attacking with 20 lings into a perfect bunkered simcity at the natural. You're going to lose all of them and accomplish little. It's not about the player being horrible lol it's the fact that a 1base baneling bust is unexpected and most terran players assume that after their 2rax pressure is held off, zerg are just going to expand into the macro game. There is less and less all-in aggression against 2rax, and that's why I made the thread - this build exploits the current metagame.
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It's not about the player being horrible lol it's the fact that a 1base baneling bust is unexpected
sry but i have to disagree with this to. if the terran has any kind of knowledge about this game then he will know that a 1 base zerg can only mean ONE thing, and that is a all in of some sort. if he knows ur on 1 base (which is not hard to find out since all zergs get there expos insanely early) then t he should come to the LOGICAL conclusion that its a baneling bust all in.
the other 2 options are 1 base muta (which is horrifically outdated and bad nowadays),
8-9 minute ultra rush which is just another cheese build
or a nydus which is only used if a hatch has been denied and u have been walled in at the bottom of ur ramp.
out of all of these options a baneling bust is the most logical and the most probable.
if a terran looses to this then it is his fault for lack of scouting. and at the GM level it is shameful to hear that ppl lack good knowledge and scouting of the game because all they did was cheese 100% of there games to get into GM.... if there was a text book that teaches u the fundamentals of SC2, scouting would be on page 1 of chapter 1......
lets face it, its not that hard to scout out a 1 base zerg. especially when u see he is making a damn baneling nest before his first hatch ffs -_-
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so many comments on such a dumb thread..
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lol............... banelings pretty good then eh? nice post
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On October 13 2011 09:50 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +It's not about the player being horrible lol it's the fact that a 1base baneling bust is unexpected sry but i have to disagree with this to. if the terran has any kind of knowledge about this game then he will know that a 1 base zerg can only mean ONE thing, and that is a all in of some sort. if he knows ur on 1 base (which is not hard to find out since all zergs get there expos insanely early) then t he should come to the LOGICAL conclusion that its a baneling bust all in. lets face it, its not that hard to scout out a 1 base zerg. especially when u see he is making a damn baneling nest before his first hatch ffs -_-
Your usual time to put down a hatchery as a 14g14p opener will be roughly 4minutes. If you think there aren't terran players who will push out and try to delay this by putting down bunkers or doing marine/scv pressure, then you're mistaken - it has happened to me countless times. If they pull out with 3 scvs and constant stream of marines via 2rax pressure and see no expo, it's very uncommon for them to instantly pull back to their base. They'll almost always try to pressure or contain, and very frequently will over commit and be incapable of holding a ling/bane counter attack.
If they wall in your ramp, you get banelings bust out and then counter attack immediately hoping they put up a CC and are low on minerals to bunker (almost always the case). It's not that hard to deny scouting of your nest if you have lings. Once you've held his contain, you'll have speed done - how's he going to scout you? If they put up one bunker at your natural, then you can surround it by producing only speedlings, saving the gas to baneling bust at the terran's main.
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Taken completely out of context lol
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lol there's no way this would work against me, I wouldn't push out if I didnt scout an expansion - however, if I decided to go for a marine/scv all in I'd definitely lose to this style. However, I don't think it's at all a bad idea to make a couple extra lings and a bane nest when you see 2rax and punish players who still push you.
EDIT: On second thought, this may not be the worst response because it would be pretty hard for terran to scout the baneling nest if the zerg has speedlings. I think you'd have to use a scan to see the main or the expansion to know whether this type of bust is coming. Against proxy raxes, like the Richman game, it's definitely a viable response.
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Private photobucket there, chief. Try link again.
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I think it's not about just countering the 2 rax but about just fucking killing terrans for doing it as he said its about winning fast although w.o an expo lots of t would be suspicious
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with how its been said many times already, i would personally be content with the fact that a zerg is not expanding at 15 supply, and use a defensive 2-rax as well as a defensive pos. at home in order to defend and tech safely.
we all obviously play different styles, but even as a zerg i find it easy to make extra lings and to destroy an aggressive 2-rax with 14/14. what you're proposing in your guide is different though since you want to make a kill-move out-right, and i can only imagine that working atleast most of the time when the terran uses proxy-raxes. it would also work if you caught them as they were finishing a barracks wall on certain maps---other than that, i would feel like it would be a situation where i'd always be ahead.
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On November 25 2011 01:30 nanaoei wrote: with how its been said many times already, i would personally be content with the fact that a zerg is not expanding at 15 supply, and use a defensive 2-rax as well as a defensive pos. at home in order to defend and tech safely.
we all obviously play different styles, but even as a zerg i find it easy to make extra lings and to destroy an aggressive 2-rax with 14/14. what you're proposing in your guide is different though since you want to make a kill-move out-right, and i can only imagine that working atleast most of the time when the terran uses proxy-raxes. it would also work if you caught them as they were finishing a barracks wall on certain maps---other than that, i would feel like it would be a situation where i'd always be ahead.
Definitely true. It certainly catches a lot of terran players off guard though - they'll either try to tech too fast, expand too fast, or be too aggressive and this push will roll any of those options. You have to play it defensively and keep constant marine production, wall in, and bunker to defend it (and a lot of players don't do this after their 2rax fails)
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fast speedling is about all you need to stop a 2rax IMO
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Lol anyone else find it funny that someone wrote this much on an incredibly straight forward 1 base baneling bust? O_O
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I love how all the Terrans in this thread are like 'dude if T scouts you its so over and you lose gg lol"
its like they're scared and trying to trick you into not making this apart of the metagame.
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On November 25 2011 10:32 rkffhk wrote: I love how all the Terrans in this thread are like 'dude if T scouts you its so over and you lose gg lol"
its like they're scared and trying to trick you into not making this apart of the metagame. Or cause it's true... the trick is to look at Zerg's gas directly after the spawning pool finishes. With 14/14 you get 100 gas as soon as the pool is done. If Zerg pulls drones off gas after that 100, it means speedling expand. If Zerg keeps mining gas, it means an all in is coming. Incredibly easy tell.
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On November 25 2011 13:31 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 10:32 rkffhk wrote: I love how all the Terrans in this thread are like 'dude if T scouts you its so over and you lose gg lol"
its like they're scared and trying to trick you into not making this apart of the metagame. Or cause it's true... the trick is to look at Zerg's gas directly after the spawning pool finishes. With 14/14 you get 100 gas as soon as the pool is done. If Zerg pulls drones off gas after that 100, it means speedling expand. If Zerg keeps mining gas, it means an all in is coming. Incredibly easy tell. That's actually a really good point that a lot of players don't do, scouting gas timing / whether zerg takes guys out of gas is crucial. After zerg gets 100 gas you should see whether they continue mining gas or take them out - even if they hatch first, it's important to note whether they go gas before or gas after pool, as gas-first is more indicative of aggression.
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So tang you lost all credibility for me when you say "GM" in the title, yet looking on sc2ranks, you are in masters. and you are currently #1000 in your region, which means there are 1200 higher scored thus better players than you in your region, which means you don't have a bats chance of getting into GM as only 200 people fit in there.
Stop putting GM in your post titles until you've actually made it into GM. Until then you are basically a fraud, tricking people into paying for coaching on the basis that you're GM level when you're not.
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On November 25 2011 03:10 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 01:30 nanaoei wrote: with how its been said many times already, i would personally be content with the fact that a zerg is not expanding at 15 supply, and use a defensive 2-rax as well as a defensive pos. at home in order to defend and tech safely.
we all obviously play different styles, but even as a zerg i find it easy to make extra lings and to destroy an aggressive 2-rax with 14/14. what you're proposing in your guide is different though since you want to make a kill-move out-right, and i can only imagine that working atleast most of the time when the terran uses proxy-raxes. it would also work if you caught them as they were finishing a barracks wall on certain maps---other than that, i would feel like it would be a situation where i'd always be ahead. Definitely true. It certainly catches a lot of terran players off guard though - they'll either try to tech too fast, expand too fast, or be too aggressive and this push will roll any of those options. You have to play it defensively and keep constant marine production, wall in, and bunker to defend it (and a lot of players don't do this after their 2rax fails) it catches them off-guard if they dont scout. in order words, it'll work if your opponent is bad. and, when your opponent scouts you on one-base, he'll respond to that 1-base play by building bunkers and pumping non-stop marines.
the reason why this build doesn't work is that you can't use it as a response to 2 rax, because you have essentially committed to it before even scouting the 2 rax by going 14 gas 14 pool.
stop claiming that its a response.
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On November 26 2011 01:03 frankster wrote: So tang you lost all credibility for me when you say "GM" in the title, yet looking on sc2ranks, you are in masters. and you are currently #1000 in your region, which means there are 1200 higher scored thus better players than you in your region, which means you don't have a bats chance of getting into GM as only 200 people fit in there.
Stop putting GM in your post titles until you've actually made it into GM. Until then you are basically a fraud, tricking people into paying for coaching on the basis that you're GM level when you're not.
He was GM last season, dick. Watch his Waterloo lecture (about an hour long) and he explains his GM status in the beginning.
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On November 26 2011 01:03 frankster wrote: So tang you lost all credibility for me when you say "GM" in the title, yet looking on sc2ranks, you are in masters. and you are currently #1000 in your region, which means there are 1200 higher scored thus better players than you in your region, which means you don't have a bats chance of getting into GM as only 200 people fit in there.
Stop putting GM in your post titles until you've actually made it into GM. Until then you are basically a fraud, tricking people into paying for coaching on the basis that you're GM level when you're not. When I created this article I was in GM. I've never tricked anyone, I'm just trying to contribute.
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Holy shit, all the hate in this thread. This guy is trying to help you with a guide. He never claims this is a solid build, nor does he claim that this will win all your games. He just gives you guys a build which might work. Maybe be thankful for people like him.
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On November 26 2011 02:37 Harstem wrote: Holy shit, all the hate in this thread. This guy is trying to help you with a guide. He never claims this is a solid build, nor does he claim that this will win all your games. He just gives you guys a build which might work. Maybe be thankful for people like him. If he didn't think it was a solid build (which it definitely is not) why would he make a guide about it?
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On November 26 2011 03:32 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 02:37 Harstem wrote: Holy shit, all the hate in this thread. This guy is trying to help you with a guide. He never claims this is a solid build, nor does he claim that this will win all your games. He just gives you guys a build which might work. Maybe be thankful for people like him. If he didn't think it was a solid build (which it definitely is not) why would he make a guide about it? Because I think it's an effective build and a viable response. It's not "solid" in the sense that it's macro-oriented, but it wins games and there's a lot of room to improve your mechanics/micro while using this build.
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Instead of making a new thread just so you can promote your stream and all that, just post in the rest of the threads similar to yours.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=baneling busts&t=t&f=-1&u=&gb=date&d=
You state that you are doing these cheesy all-in builds to help benefit the zerg players that are struggling. In what way are they benefiting from this? By getting a win? You don't benefit from just getting a win on the ladder. You benefit from earning that win through solid play. Why promote players to depend upon their opponents to not scout X and hope for them to do that 1 BUILD that it "counters." That is in no way helping someone; it is hurting their play in fact.
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On November 26 2011 03:46 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 03:32 Moosegills wrote:On November 26 2011 02:37 Harstem wrote: Holy shit, all the hate in this thread. This guy is trying to help you with a guide. He never claims this is a solid build, nor does he claim that this will win all your games. He just gives you guys a build which might work. Maybe be thankful for people like him. If he didn't think it was a solid build (which it definitely is not) why would he make a guide about it? Because I think it's an effective build and a viable response. It's not "solid" in the sense that it's macro-oriented, but it wins games and there's a lot of room to improve your mechanics/micro while using this build.
It's hardly a viable response. It's a gamble and you pray they fuck up. I 2rax as my main TvZ build and don't think I've actually lost to a baneling bust on 1base the last 5+ times they've attempted. Same with roach rushes on 1 base. Everytime they've utterly failed...
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On November 26 2011 03:46 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 03:32 Moosegills wrote:On November 26 2011 02:37 Harstem wrote: Holy shit, all the hate in this thread. This guy is trying to help you with a guide. He never claims this is a solid build, nor does he claim that this will win all your games. He just gives you guys a build which might work. Maybe be thankful for people like him. If he didn't think it was a solid build (which it definitely is not) why would he make a guide about it? Because I think it's an effective build and a viable response. It's not "solid" in the sense that it's macro-oriented, but it wins games and there's a lot of room to improve your mechanics/micro while using this build. dude its not a response.
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On November 26 2011 04:40 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 03:46 TangSC wrote:On November 26 2011 03:32 Moosegills wrote:On November 26 2011 02:37 Harstem wrote: Holy shit, all the hate in this thread. This guy is trying to help you with a guide. He never claims this is a solid build, nor does he claim that this will win all your games. He just gives you guys a build which might work. Maybe be thankful for people like him. If he didn't think it was a solid build (which it definitely is not) why would he make a guide about it? Because I think it's an effective build and a viable response. It's not "solid" in the sense that it's macro-oriented, but it wins games and there's a lot of room to improve your mechanics/micro while using this build. It's hardly a viable response. It's a gamble and you pray they fuck up. I 2rax as my main TvZ build and don't think I've actually lost to a baneling bust on 1base the last 5+ times they've attempted. Same with roach rushes on 1 base. Everytime they've utterly failed... I've had success with it, and I think it's pretty strong and difficult to stop if you execute it properly.
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On November 26 2011 04:33 .kv wrote:
You state that you are doing these cheesy all-in builds to help benefit the zerg players that are struggling. In what way are they benefiting from this? By getting a win? You don't benefit from just getting a win on the ladder. You benefit from earning that win through solid play. Why promote players to depend upon their opponents to not scout X and hope for them to do that 1 BUILD that it "counters." That is in no way helping someone; it is hurting their play in fact. I understand where you're coming from, but I truly believe playing aggressive is the key to rapid improvement at SC2. I don't agree with the notion that solid macro play is the only way to play a given matchup - I think having aggressive responses and transitions based on your scouting information is an excellent approach. Understanding the timings and the execution of basic all-in responses and learning to optimally time and execute your push will help you improve the level of precision to your build orders (while improving multitasking/micro/macro).
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On November 26 2011 05:02 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 04:40 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 26 2011 03:46 TangSC wrote:On November 26 2011 03:32 Moosegills wrote:On November 26 2011 02:37 Harstem wrote: Holy shit, all the hate in this thread. This guy is trying to help you with a guide. He never claims this is a solid build, nor does he claim that this will win all your games. He just gives you guys a build which might work. Maybe be thankful for people like him. If he didn't think it was a solid build (which it definitely is not) why would he make a guide about it? Because I think it's an effective build and a viable response. It's not "solid" in the sense that it's macro-oriented, but it wins games and there's a lot of room to improve your mechanics/micro while using this build. It's hardly a viable response. It's a gamble and you pray they fuck up. I 2rax as my main TvZ build and don't think I've actually lost to a baneling bust on 1base the last 5+ times they've attempted. Same with roach rushes on 1 base. Everytime they've utterly failed... I've had success with it, and I think it's pretty strong and difficult to stop if you execute it properly.
If you execute properly? Doesn't matter what you do if Terran is prepared for it... how do you even "execute it wrong." It's a build that's been around since the beta... your build order is identical (except it actually gets an extra drone and cuts a single pair of lings which actually makes your bust weaker...) to the old school baneling bust used vs both Protoss and Terran.
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On November 26 2011 05:12 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 04:33 .kv wrote:
You state that you are doing these cheesy all-in builds to help benefit the zerg players that are struggling. In what way are they benefiting from this? By getting a win? You don't benefit from just getting a win on the ladder. You benefit from earning that win through solid play. Why promote players to depend upon their opponents to not scout X and hope for them to do that 1 BUILD that it "counters." That is in no way helping someone; it is hurting their play in fact. I understand where you're coming from, but I truly believe playing aggressive is the key to rapid improvement at SC2. I don't agree with the notion that solid macro play is the only way to play a given matchup - I think having aggressive responses and transitions based on your scouting information is an excellent approach. Understanding the timings and the execution of basic all-in responses and learning to optimally time and execute your push will help you improve the level of precision to your build orders (while improving multitasking/micro/macro).
You keep saying that doing all in pushes is a good way to practice your multitasking and macro, but in no way does doing an all in help mechanics more than playing longer games in which you are dealing with larger economies, armies, and overall stuff at the same time. You need to quit trying to sell the notion that all ins are the best way to learn. They just aren't.
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On November 26 2011 07:11 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 05:12 TangSC wrote:On November 26 2011 04:33 .kv wrote:
You state that you are doing these cheesy all-in builds to help benefit the zerg players that are struggling. In what way are they benefiting from this? By getting a win? You don't benefit from just getting a win on the ladder. You benefit from earning that win through solid play. Why promote players to depend upon their opponents to not scout X and hope for them to do that 1 BUILD that it "counters." That is in no way helping someone; it is hurting their play in fact. I understand where you're coming from, but I truly believe playing aggressive is the key to rapid improvement at SC2. I don't agree with the notion that solid macro play is the only way to play a given matchup - I think having aggressive responses and transitions based on your scouting information is an excellent approach. Understanding the timings and the execution of basic all-in responses and learning to optimally time and execute your push will help you improve the level of precision to your build orders (while improving multitasking/micro/macro). You keep saying that doing all in pushes is a good way to practice your multitasking and macro, but in no way does doing an all in help mechanics more than playing longer games in which you are dealing with larger economies, armies, and overall stuff at the same time. You need to quit trying to sell the notion that all ins are the best way to learn. They just aren't.
It has been my experience that learning to properly manage 1 and 2 base economies at an optimally efficient level is a better exercise in improving mechanics than a poorly managed 3-5 base economy. You have to crawl before you can walk.
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On November 26 2011 07:15 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 07:11 Moosegills wrote:On November 26 2011 05:12 TangSC wrote:On November 26 2011 04:33 .kv wrote:
You state that you are doing these cheesy all-in builds to help benefit the zerg players that are struggling. In what way are they benefiting from this? By getting a win? You don't benefit from just getting a win on the ladder. You benefit from earning that win through solid play. Why promote players to depend upon their opponents to not scout X and hope for them to do that 1 BUILD that it "counters." That is in no way helping someone; it is hurting their play in fact. I understand where you're coming from, but I truly believe playing aggressive is the key to rapid improvement at SC2. I don't agree with the notion that solid macro play is the only way to play a given matchup - I think having aggressive responses and transitions based on your scouting information is an excellent approach. Understanding the timings and the execution of basic all-in responses and learning to optimally time and execute your push will help you improve the level of precision to your build orders (while improving multitasking/micro/macro). You keep saying that doing all in pushes is a good way to practice your multitasking and macro, but in no way does doing an all in help mechanics more than playing longer games in which you are dealing with larger economies, armies, and overall stuff at the same time. You need to quit trying to sell the notion that all ins are the best way to learn. They just aren't. It has been my experience that learning to properly manage 1 and 2 base economies at an optimally efficient level is a better exercise in improving mechanics than a poorly managed 3-5 base economy. You have to crawl before you can walk. But by practicing all ins, to a persons brain who is doing the all in, the game ends at that point. They either win or they lose at that point because they are all in. I think that having such a restrictive mindset is a really bad way to learn.
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Hey Tang,
Thanks for this post, as a gold level Zerg I find this kind of advice both helpful and encouraging... I frequently find myself seeing opportunities to punish an opponent (scouting early aggression, turtling, FE, or just terrible builds) but I have trouble with the "Dishing out" of said punishment...
my inclination as a player is to be aggressive, and though I understand the value of droning hard and macroing up, I'm glad to see someone trying to cultivate more of a "just fucking kill 'em" playstyle
Keep up the good work, and thanks for the guides!
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On November 26 2011 07:54 Shmu wrote:Hey Tang, Thanks for this post, as a gold level Zerg I find this kind of advice both helpful and encouraging... I frequently find myself seeing opportunities to punish an opponent (scouting early aggression, turtling, FE, or just terrible builds) but I have trouble with the "Dishing out" of said punishment... my inclination as a player is to be aggressive, and though I understand the value of droning hard and macroing up, I'm glad to see someone trying to cultivate more of a "just fucking kill 'em" playstyle Keep up the good work, and thanks for the guides!
This has nothing to do with seeing the opportunities. You have to blindly do it before you even know if they're going to be greedy or not. It works if they are being overly aggressive, but you have no idea if they're going to be overly aggressive when you're building the Zerglings prepping for the bust, because you never go back to drones.
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Play all in to improve game mechanics ? ... How come. If you wanna be a better player just play macro game instead of stupid all in. This game is not only attack to win , but to manage your money , to defend , to harassment , to do a multitasking etc.
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On November 26 2011 15:14 nOondn wrote: Play all in to improve game mechanics ? ... How come. If you wanna be a better player just play macro game instead of stupid all in. This game is not only attack to win , but to manage your money , to defend , to harassment , to do a multitasking etc. I kind of get what he's saying...it isn't the build you choose that's the most important, it's how well you execute it and exploit your opponent's weakness. I 2rax often, and I think I'd *probably* hold this type of counterattack most games. But like I said earlier, if I went for some sort of scv all-in or overcommitted just a bit which a lot of players willd o Id outright lose the game.
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On November 26 2011 15:14 nOondn wrote: Play all in to improve game mechanics ? ... How come. If you wanna be a better player just play macro game instead of stupid all in. This game is not only attack to win , but to manage your money , to defend , to harassment , to do a multitasking etc. As long as you're playing an active style, then you'll improve. A lot of players are very lazy with scouting and harassment when they play a purely macro-oriented style and so I recommend just playing very aggressively to keep you constantly doing something. Of course macro will help you learn, but you need to be scouting all the time and doing everything you can to improve your multitasking. By playing aggressive you're forced to improve your multitasking, I never said this type of all-in response is the "best" way to learn but by practicing it now and then (for example, practicing it when a player 2raxes you) you'll improve a set of skills and mechanics that a macro style overlooks. Don't do an all-in everygame, but definitely be capable of it and experienced in the timing and execution.
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Even though the write is quite thorough, this is pretty much a standard 1 base bane bust like people have already said. There are a couple things that people should be wary about concerning the build though.
- You have to open 14 gas/pool with this defense which I do agree is the best to defend 2 rax, but most every terran nowadays on most maps open helion expand. So you'll be behind right off the bat not opening 15 hatch if the game doesn't end on the bust. You won't be able to kill a good terran going helion this way. The helions usually pop right as your doing the bust and there will always be some kind of bunker behind wall. You'll do some damage but not enough.
- If you want to base bane bust against a 2 rax opening, I feel the 2 base bane bust (Kyrix style) is usually more effective. You get just as much scouting and it's got a similar feel but revolves more around how much damage you can do to the natural vs the ramp/main. You bust the natural successfully and you pretty much win the game too and your chances of success are probably higher. Plus, if you decide there is no opening for the bust you are even or a little ahead of the terran economically so can easily transition into mid game.
Overall, I do agree that people should be well versed at these types of aggression but it's a risky strategy. Given it's a risky strategy, it's probably best to be used when you know your opponent is better than you. Otherwise, why risk the game early when you can have a higher chance of success later?
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TBH, 2-rax is impossible to counter if you don't Hatch first. A 1-base bling bust can work, but you have to be able to know that he is 2-raxing before you get to 15 drones (I prefer to 15 hatch instead of 14 hatch or 14/14), which is also impossible. Not to mention that you need 2 hatcheries with queens to be able to hold off the 2-rax, or the hellion pressure, if they go that way.
Yes, it can work, but if it does, it's for the same reason that KiWiKaKi occasionally wins. They don't expect you to do that because they have never played someone who has, so they don't know how to stop it. Not to mention how all-in it is, and all they have to do is double wall, and then you are behind economically. And if you didn't expand behind it, you lose.
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This looks a lot like the thread about the NEW HYPER AGGRESSIVE PVZ that turned out to just be the old 5gate
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Now I don't 2rax much, but when I do and I push with my first 2 marines and an SCV just to find you not even daring to expand I'll play it supersafe and wait for your all in. I know this has been said multiple times already, and I am not even trying to say that I am better than you at the game, but I just have to agree with the "haters" who have posted before me. It's basically a build order for banelingbusting.. IDK....
Sure, it works from time to time, especially if your opponent spawns so his rax can't face his walloff but his addon has to, but it's not a "surfire way to handle 2rax".
I agree that the game should be played responsively, but just the other day a top 10 master player pylonblocked my rax for addons when I was going 1rax FE without gas. He made himself look rediculous, the same way you will when I scout that you haven't expanded, nor do you plan to.
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yea Im sorry I see nothing wrong with the guide actually, If anyone can tell me a build with 100% zero weakness no chance of loss Id like to see it. Alot of "solid" Standard macro builds get exposed time and time again by various timings. But when that happens its because "Oh he didnt do this" or "Oh he didnt do that". How is that any different from a terran responding effectively to Tangs build? Just because it happens before both players have 3+ expos ? Hes not telling everyone to go play like the pros. Its something that he uses well and is good at and wanted to share it so people who are struggling with 2 rax pressure can have an option to look at.
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Why would a T 2rax you scouting a 14/14 instead of a hatch first?
That sounds rather suidical to me in the first place, no?
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9: Overlord 14Gas 14 Pool 15 Overlord 15 Queen 17 2xLings, Speed 22 Baneling Nest 21 Overlord 21- Mass Lings
so aside from the standard build you put down a baneling nest, when do you expand or take a third? or is this one of those all-ins you pray your opponent doesn't hold off?
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Why so much purism. This is about us all getting better, not winning an MLG.
If it works for me, then it is good enough.
I think the main point is that before tanks or lots of buildings at the ramp (as it is usual when the terran 2raxes), banes can be very efective. If scouted, it gets a lot more difficult to execute, so you need to conceal your intentions.
I've had more success by baneling busting AFTER i quickexpanded and was able to defend the 2rax. Defense usually implies using a lot of drones to fight, and after that you end up having them mining at the natural.
After 2rax, at least at my level http://sc2ranks.com/us/891208/ElPeque they are usually expanding or about to expand with bunkers and feel safe, as they expect you to saturate both hatches.
There you can build your bane nest and prepare a bust. With 2 hatches you can make a lot more lings, and if he tries to scout with an scv, he will just see a ~saturated natural, which looks "not allinish". Having them scan your main at this point is pretty rare, but oh well. If he does, make lair and drone like fuck as he makes 2346346 bunkers.
If it goes really well, you can stream into their base and end it right there. If not so well, you can usually deny their expo while droning up.
If it goes bad, well... good luck and have fun
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On November 28 2011 22:34 ElPeque.fogata wrote: I've had more success by baneling busting AFTER i quickexpanded and was able to defend the 2rax. Defense usually implies using a lot of drones to fight, and after that you end up having them mining at the natural.
This is viable too, and less all-in. It comes a bit later and has a lower chance of success but it has a more economic follow through.
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Hey guys, there's been skepticism about whether this works against high-level terran players. Here is a new replay using this style against a top GM Terran on NA server: Tang vs Sterling: http://drop.sc/86287
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On January 08 2012 03:46 elixir_gum wrote: nice bump lol The game was this morning and made me think of this post, I hadn't used the build in a while.
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Coin toss build if dont scout his expo going up dont do this build there are a lot of transitions out of 2rax this is the riskiest response by the zerg
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On January 08 2012 06:25 Nore wrote: Coin toss build if dont scout his expo going up dont do this build there are a lot of transitions out of 2rax this is the riskiest response by the zerg It is a bit risky, and it's not what you should do every game. Still, I think if you playing the same player multiple times on ladder or in a tournament, and they open 2rax aggression both games, hitting them with an aggressive counter-attack is a great way to win the game / shake your opponent's confidence in moving out against you.
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