[G] Grandmaster by 6pooling, how to - Page 28
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clayn
Germany444 Posts
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
On November 18 2011 18:25 Thune wrote: Who declares that macro is the right game to play? If u can play 6pool all day long and everybody knows you for that and u can still win in GM than u r good. wheres the difference to a player that is doing everygame a banshe opening and still can win in gm allthough everybody knows his builds and timings? or a player who is every game going mech and never play something different and is still able to take second place at battle in berlin? its just a different playstyle of the game and nothing more or less. if u know whats coming and still u cant win than u simply are worse than ur opponent. allthough i really hate players who do this and be bm afterwards like u are. The difference that you're missing is that 6 pool + drones every game is not a playstyle, it's cheese, and it has an extremely low skill cap compared to say, a gas first 3 hellion 1 banshee expand into mech build in TvT. Playing the game hoping that your opponent doesn't have the experience/skills to stop this cheese is not really playing the game at all. Your opponent isn't playing you, they're playing themselves, there's not much difference between a silver level 6 pool and a mid masters level 6 pool, they'll have pretty shitty micro, hit at around the same time, and be pretty much of equivalent effect against the same builds (if your opponent goes 10 pool they should hold pretty easily, if they go 14 gas 14p, they're pretty much dead, e.g.) Hopefully you don't think that winning a game with 6pool + drones against a gm player makes you good, it doesn't, the difference is that you've been in that situation (cheesing like the scrub you are), let's say 100 times, and they've been in that situation (defending the mindless cheese with their specific build order), maybe a half a dozen times, or maybe 20 times if they ladder a ton. If they know they're going to play you in an important game, they'll have a friend 6 pool them a bunch of games in a row until they can hold it 99% of the time without any issues. The same does not go for "banshee openers", or "mech play". It's pretty retarded that you can win with 6 pools this easily, I tried it out a few times myself (my mmr is decently high, I had the pleasure of getting 6 pooled by ret a couple days ago...) | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 18 2011 18:34 CatNzHat wrote: The difference that you're missing is that 6 pool + drones every game is not a playstyle, it's cheese, and it has an extremely low skill cap compared to say, a gas first 3 hellion 1 banshee expand into mech build in TvT. Playing the game hoping that your opponent doesn't have the experience/skills to stop this cheese is not really playing the game at all. Your opponent isn't playing you, they're playing themselves, there's not much difference between a silver level 6 pool and a mid masters level 6 pool, they'll have pretty shitty micro, hit at around the same time, and be pretty much of equivalent effect against the same builds (if your opponent goes 10 pool they should hold pretty easily, if they go 14 gas 14p, they're pretty much dead, e.g.) Hopefully you don't think that winning a game with 6pool + drones against a gm player makes you good, it doesn't, the difference is that you've been in that situation (cheesing like the scrub you are), let's say 100 times, and they've been in that situation (defending the mindless cheese with their specific build order), maybe a half a dozen times, or maybe 20 times if they ladder a ton. If they know they're going to play you in an important game, they'll have a friend 6 pool them a bunch of games in a row until they can hold it 99% of the time without any issues. The same does not go for "banshee openers", or "mech play". It's pretty retarded that you can win with 6 pools this easily, I tried it out a few times myself (my mmr is decently high, I had the pleasure of getting 6 pooled by ret a couple days ago...) why is it more retarted to win with 6pool then to win with 11/11 or indoor forge Metalopolis? I see the point that coinflip wins (or BO wins or whatever) aren't fun and that starcraft is a game so the whole point of playing is to have fun, but in that case I would recommend that you don't use the ladder, because people on the ladder usually play to win. Or you simply calculate it through once: do over 50% of the zergs you face 6pool? 1) No! --> Play your usual build, take the 1min loss (if you think your build loses against 6pool anyway, just leave the moment you realize it's a 6pool) and queue up another game. 2) Yes! (unlikely) --> play a build that counters the 6pool in vZ. I know it sucks to be on the receiving end of this, but as a zerg player I must say I am there 99% of my games, if it is an 11/11cheese, a canonblock, a completly unnecessary 10min tank/marine allin, 6gate-7gate allin, double factory allin, double starport allin, double stargate allin etc etc... And in 50% of the cases you simply can't know if any of this is coming, because the standard zerg BOs don't provide a fast enough scout. (if I'm not lucky enough to have a sacrifical overlord ready that is lucky to scout the right place) In the end it always comes down to guessing and being ready to make some sacrifices (f.e. scout at 8 or 9 against zerg, if your BO can't deal with a 6pool) against a player that might as well just have another CC up or might be teching instead of cheesing you. The only thing that this thread proves is that there are zerg builds out there which are being ignored in the current proplayers' metagame builds. ofc it won't be enough to win a tournament, because your opponents will (hopefully) adapt, but seeing how we had times with Code S players whose only ability was to "Bit-By-Bit" or blink (sorry HongUn, I really like you but artosis was right, your only slightly useful PvZ build you showed was blinkstalkers). Hell we had a player who won the GSL 2times only by 6gating, and even though MC has a lot of good builds up his sleeve, all he did was 6gates because at this time noone knew how to deal with it (just look at all the pro and forum discussion from that time "hydras are the way to go", "you need tanks/ghosts", "whatever you have, he will just FF you") | ||
askTeivospy
1525 Posts
On November 18 2011 18:34 CatNzHat wrote: The difference that you're missing is that 6 pool + drones every game is not a playstyle, it's cheese, and it has an extremely low skill cap compared to say, a gas first 3 hellion 1 banshee expand into mech build in TvT. Playing the game hoping that your opponent doesn't have the experience/skills to stop this cheese is not really playing the game at all. Your opponent isn't playing you, they're playing themselves, there's not much difference between a silver level 6 pool and a mid masters level 6 pool, they'll have pretty shitty micro, hit at around the same time, and be pretty much of equivalent effect against the same builds (if your opponent goes 10 pool they should hold pretty easily, if they go 14 gas 14p, they're pretty much dead, e.g.) Hopefully you don't think that winning a game with 6pool + drones against a gm player makes you good, it doesn't, the difference is that you've been in that situation (cheesing like the scrub you are), let's say 100 times, and they've been in that situation (defending the mindless cheese with their specific build order), maybe a half a dozen times, or maybe 20 times if they ladder a ton. If they know they're going to play you in an important game, they'll have a friend 6 pool them a bunch of games in a row until they can hold it 99% of the time without any issues. The same does not go for "banshee openers", or "mech play". It's pretty retarded that you can win with 6 pools this easily, I tried it out a few times myself (my mmr is decently high, I had the pleasure of getting 6 pooled by ret a couple days ago...) I think when you're talking skill cap you need to incorporate people's capability of handling early aggression, ie micro with limited options. Yeah 6 pool might be e z to win with but things like this forces the victim to get better which is good for overall skill level or they can complain and call the other guy a nuB instead of getting better :| Early aggression games mixed with macro games imo is so much more fun to watch than a 20 minute long game that was decided at 7-10 minutes 30 times over. there needs to be more acceptance of early cheeses and all ins in teh community | ||
bgx
Poland6595 Posts
nah seriously, this guy is GM at what hes doing, he has great knowladge in this part of the game, while even some pros skips this part of the game and have inferior knowladge in v early game, for example i havent seen much about hold position micro, and this is somewhat changing my whole view on this matter everyone skip this topic saying its stupid or uninportant but thats simply not true, we need to know every area of the game, even drone rushes or how to stop them, or we will see more actionjesuzes pwning "better" opponents on tourneys (hi lucifron) do you remember how morrow humiliated strelok with 12drone rush? Thats happens when someone lacks the knowledge and discredit some part of the game. stuff like this still happen in BW after 10 years of evolution its inevitably a part of the game, and a tool to use, know your macro, mid game and lategame but know your early game/cheese also, otherwise your knowledge is not complete i apprieciate your thread, keep posting hilarious games | ||
Zeiasweigha
57 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 18 2011 20:21 Zeiasweigha wrote: I really think pros should try to use this strategy even in tournaments. For example, if Ret (known as a macro player) would suddenly use this strategy, he might get an easy win against some players. But of course, always doing it is a different story well, there is also a difference if you do that on the ladder against a pro who just wants to herpderp around with builds and train his mechanics and earn money by streaming and commentating, or if you do this in a tournament... A progamer on the ladder will most likely just aclick his stuff against your stuff and queue a new game and all he lost was 2mins of his life, in a tournament game however, he will really try to micro his heart out and he will just know about every risk he takes and most likely not play a build that is bad vs 6pool, if he can't afford to lose. And even if someone has 60% success with it on the ladder... That's 40% chance of losing. How intelligent is it to use this build if you're Ret, rather than one of his standard builds that has proven to win him a lot of tournaments? (which means it has way more than 60% winchance in his hands) Also, exactly players like Ret, Idra or NesTea are known to throw in such a build once in a while, if they can afford to lose a game in a boX-series. | ||
MasterVelVet
Belgium132 Posts
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Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
On November 18 2011 20:53 Big J wrote: well, there is also a difference if you do that on the ladder against a pro who just wants to herpderp around with builds and train his mechanics and earn money by streaming and commentating, or if you do this in a tournament... A progamer on the ladder will most likely just aclick his stuff against your stuff and queue a new game and all he lost was 2mins of his life, in a tournament game however, he will really try to micro his heart out and he will just know about every risk he takes and most likely not play a build that is bad vs 6pool, if he can't afford to lose. And even if someone has 60% success with it on the ladder... That's 40% chance of losing. How intelligent is it to use this build if you're Ret, rather than one of his standard builds that has proven to win him a lot of tournaments? (which means it has way more than 60% winchance in his hands) Also, exactly players like Ret, Idra or NesTea are known to throw in such a build once in a while, if they can afford to lose a game in a boX-series. you have to count in the blind counters (6 pylon 6 forge) (6 depo 7 rax) (8 pool) of the guys i met twice and more and lose to them (thats like 80% of my loses) same as u have to count in the russian maphack front and some random always 10 pooler etc. if someone like idra plays against someone like ret, i would consider my strat as a 90% win if u have the mechanics to micro well enough. | ||
Bajsgrodan
Afghanistan408 Posts
I would have no problem with this strategy if you wouldent BM afterwards, I hope you can see why people get frustrated when they get 6-pooled (except Whitera<3) so adding BM to this is kind of unessesary just be the bigger man and don't BM people that you beat even if they clearly overreact and call you names. Apart from that awesome job with explaining the details involved in 6-7 pooling some things were definately new to me. Allthough I have a hard time seeing how you can consistently beat Terrans with these cheeses, I have never died to a dronerush/6-pool so far (low masters). Im definately going to have to be ready for that now. | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 18 2011 21:36 Bad_Habit wrote: you have to count in the blind counters (6 pylon 6 forge) (6 depo 7 rax) (8 pool) of the guys i met twice and more and lose to them (thats like 80% of my loses) same as u have to count in the russian maphack front and some random always 10 pooler etc. if someone like idra plays against someone like ret, i would consider my strat as a 90% win if u have the mechanics to micro well enough. and I would argue that in this scenario the cheesing player has way less than 50% winchance, simply due to the fact that tournament maps don't suck. I think you said it yourself at some place... It's not a good strategy on TDA. Now consider that TDA rushdistance is pretty average in mappools with Crevasse, Terminus, Calm before the storm, Daybreak and so on. Also I think you have to consider that a player that thinks of himself of being capable to win a tournament, thinks he is capable of having ~80%winrate in the tournament. Why would you want to trade 80% against a coinflip? Especially as this strategy is a thing you can only do very few times. After that, people will just learn to deal with it and learn to scout vs it when playing against you. And then it's not even a coinflip anymore. | ||
Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
On November 18 2011 22:20 Big J wrote: and I would argue that in this scenario the cheesing player has way less than 50% winchance, simply due to the fact that tournament maps don't suck. I think you said it yourself at some place... It's not a good strategy on TDA. Now consider that TDA rushdistance is pretty average in mappools with Crevasse, Terminus, Calm before the storm, Daybreak and so on. Also I think you have to consider that a player that thinks of himself of being capable to win a tournament, thinks he is capable of having ~80%winrate in the tournament. Why would you want to trade 80% against a coinflip? Especially as this strategy is a thing you can only do very few times. After that, people will just learn to deal with it and learn to scout vs it when playing against you. And then it's not even a coinflip anymore. im not saying you can win a tournament by purely doing it. im just saying the chance of taking a map of a very equal player to you is higher than the 50% you usually would have. and a outclassed player can get the favor in his hands by winning a map like this in a series of games because he then will have the momentum. so i think the cheese really would do well in a tournament same as it could lead to a new mindset of all races to not start to greedy so you have the basic to be econimicwhise ahead by just playing a normal game when ppl would have somewhere back in their mind "hey this dude 6pools like a bozz". sure when you are nestea (best zerg, even tho hes not perform to his best atm) i would not use such a strat since he should be favorite against everyone (unless mvp probably) | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 18 2011 22:25 Bad_Habit wrote: im not saying you can win a tournament by purely doing it. im just saying the chance of taking a map of a very equal player to you is higher than the 50% you usually would have. and a outclassed player can get the favor in his hands by winning a map like this in a series of games because he then will have the momentum. so i think the cheese really would do well in a tournament same as it could lead to a new mindset of all races to not start to greedy so you have the basic to be econimicwhise ahead by just playing a normal game when ppl would have somewhere back in their mind "hey this dude 6pools like a bozz". sure when you are nestea (best zerg, even tho hes not perform to his best atm) i would not use such a strat since he should be favorite against everyone (unless mvp probably) but that's the point. You can't go for the build as a standard build. You can throw it in occasionally and that's it. And we see superearly pool builds occasionally. I guess one can argue that it should hapen more often, but how much more? a lot of protoss players already open Forge first because of 6pools (there is no other reason to go forge before nexus than an early pool). Terrans in tournaments often start their second supply depot way early, just to deny scouting, but that would also work against a 6pool. Even zergs like nestea play 10pool builds sometimes and losira has beaten kyrix' early pool 2times with a hatch first build. Arguably it would be possible to outmicro your opponent and get some wins in tournaments with this strategy. But 2days later your former opponent (if he is a pro that cares) will just know about all those tricks himself and then we're back to even. I don't deny that it is a viable 1 or 2 time thing, but that is what's already happening. I don't deny that it can be improved, but it just comes down to 1 or 2games you might win. That's not the definition of a strategy that can be performed repeatetly, it's a simple cheese and even if some proplayers included it in their repertoire, that would have no impact whatsoever on the current metagame. | ||
cydial
United States750 Posts
I know people that do some of the most retard freindly strats from 2 port banshee non stop to 3gate voidray to 2 base baneling bust. These strats work on LADDER because you fight someone different every, single, time. Which is fine, but in a series you're probably not going to win against someone of similar skill. | ||
Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
On November 18 2011 22:45 Big J wrote: but that's the point. You can't go for the build as a standard build. You can throw it in occasionally and that's it. And we see superearly pool builds occasionally. I guess one can argue that it should hapen more often, but how much more? a lot of protoss players already open Forge first because of 6pools (there is no other reason to go forge before nexus than an early pool). Terrans in tournaments often start their second supply depot way early, just to deny scouting, but that would also work against a 6pool. Even zergs like nestea play 10pool builds sometimes and losira has beaten kyrix' early pool 2times with a hatch first build. Arguably it would be possible to outmicro your opponent and get some wins in tournaments with this strategy. But 2days later your former opponent (if he is a pro that cares) will just know about all those tricks himself and then we're back to even. I don't deny that it is a viable 1 or 2 time thing, but that is what's already happening. I don't deny that it can be improved, but it just comes down to 1 or 2games you might win. That's not the definition of a strategy that can be performed repeatetly, it's a simple cheese and even if some proplayers included it in their repertoire, that would have no impact whatsoever on the current metagame. i completely agree with you and i never said anything about using it every single game in tournaments. still as you say losira beat kyrix 2 times because kyris just chose the wrong strategy. if he would have used my strategy he would have better chances to win the game (thats at least my opinion and i stand for it). so why waste the games u throw in to cheese (what obvs was the case of kyrix, same as he wants to be unexpectable) with some not layed out 6pools wher eu just produce lings. and not try to perfectionize a 6pool that actually works? sure u might say i spend more time in making up this streats than ill ever gain from them in a tournament. but others could gain if they threw it in once or twice in their lifetime. sure i have nothing from it but isnt there always someone who does such "crap" in your eyes? im just getting tired that people think im a lowclass human beeing because i made up this strats | ||
Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
I didn't approve of how you provoked the pros, and then posted it is here as if it was them being BM, but I'll ignore that for now. It is nice to see someone show that there is skill in cheese, taking away the "bronze-to-diamond-in-a-day" reputation these kind of very early game cheeses have. As you say, cheese is a very powerful tool, also at the highest level, and should be seen as such. Then the implications on lower levels is another story, that I hope we will not have to discuss here. I have not read the 28 pages, so sorry if i repeat, but here are a few question to you habit: 1) You say that many of your loses are from people blind countering you. Which means that you are well above 50% winrate vs "normal" openings. Where with "normal" I mean according to todays metagame. Is this because ---a) people dont know how to react to it when it comes, or ---b) the current metagame has too greedy openings? Would you be able to hold this attack yourself, if you would play vs yourself (or someone doing this build as well as you do...) and do a "normal" opening? 2) White-ra, one of the best Europeans, seemed to react to it by "well, lets attack with the probes and see what happens" and got ridiculously outmicroed. Barely killed a single drone. I dont know exactly what he did, first some a-move, then some mineral walk and a-move again, while you were just standing still and attacking (hold position? not sure..) I didnt feel that white-ra handled it perfectly. What is the correct response to these rushes? Maybe you can add a few lines to the guides you have of the rush in different matchups, describing what the best reaction is when you see the lings/drones coming up your ramp. Or if there are some small changes you can do to your scouting pattern that increases the chance to see it coming, and how to react if you do. Thanks. gl in GM. | ||
ozeake
Finland48 Posts
On November 18 2011 23:30 Bad_Habit wrote: im just getting tired that people think im a lowclass human beeing because i made up this strats People think you're "lowclass" because you talk shit while repeatedly 6pooling people and then posting a thread about it, not because you elaborated on how to do a 6pool well. | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 18 2011 23:30 Bad_Habit wrote: i completely agree with you and i never said anything about using it every single game in tournaments. still as you say losira beat kyrix 2 times because kyris just chose the wrong strategy. if he would have used my strategy he would have better chances to win the game (thats at least my opinion and i stand for it). so why waste the games u throw in to cheese (what obvs was the case of kyrix, same as he wants to be unexpectable) with some not layed out 6pools wher eu just produce lings. and not try to perfectionize a 6pool that actually works? sure u might say i spend more time in making up this streats than ill ever gain from them in a tournament. but others could gain if they threw it in once or twice in their lifetime. sure i have nothing from it but isnt there always someone who does such "crap" in your eyes? im just getting tired that people think im a lowclass human beeing because i made up this strats I'm totally with you that I say: if I want to do something like this, I better should do it right. Yet I somehow fail to see what the big difference is. I guess there are some microtricks in it and if you train it you can get better with it and seeing how it doesn't take long to greatly improve micro for this strategy, it is definatly worth training it. But I think you're overestimating these things. 6pool mainly works due to metagame reasons, not to due to micro reasons. also don't think that I consider you "lowclass human being". Also I couldn't care less about what strategy you earned your GM with. Yet I see why people (including me) get pissed off by kids who try to ruin one's gaming experience with bm. If someone chooses to play unpopular strategies and has success with it, I'm the last one who will tell him to stop. But if that guy keeps flaming around, I see why people (including me) don't like him. | ||
Perfect
United States322 Posts
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Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
On November 19 2011 00:08 Big J wrote: I'm totally with you that I say: if I want to do something like this, I better should do it right. Yet I somehow fail to see what the big difference is. I guess there are some microtricks in it and if you train it you can get better with it and seeing how it doesn't take long to greatly improve micro for this strategy, it is definatly worth training it. But I think you're overestimating these things. 6pool mainly works due to metagame reasons, not to due to micro reasons. also don't think that I consider you "lowclass human being". Also I couldn't care less about what strategy you earned your GM with. Yet I see why people (including me) get pissed off by kids who try to ruin one's gaming experience with bm. If someone chooses to play unpopular strategies and has success with it, I'm the last one who will tell him to stop. But if that guy keeps flaming around, I see why people (including me) don't like him. On November 19 2011 00:04 Cascade wrote: I have not read the 28 pages, so sorry if i repeat, but here are a few question to you habit: 1) You say that many of your loses are from people blind countering you. Which means that you are well above 50% winrate vs "normal" openings. Where with "normal" I mean according to todays metagame. Is this because ---a) people dont know how to react to it when it comes, or ---b) the current metagame has too greedy openings? these strats are layed out to beat the standart strats from all races. not only the greedy openings. also i would say that u need a ton of micro and not just the strat. u will get in many different situations and u always have to react perfectly because this strat is not very forgiving On November 19 2011 00:29 Perfect wrote: After this thread i have gotten six pooled so many times its not even funny. Especially on Xel Naga, one of the smallest maps in the ladder pool. I just dont see how you can beat a terran that scouts at the normal "proper" time. I am not sure if the zerg's im playing (mid masters) are just not good at it, but all i do is pull all my scvs away and run in a circle until my marine pops out and micro accordingly. i guess those zergs are just not good with it. did u actually see the thread that i pull all worker and explain how to snipe the marine the fastest etc? normal terran play means 13-14 scout so my drones hit faster than his scouts comes and he cant walloff since i can block it | ||
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