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On December 22 2011 04:32 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 04:16 Geiko wrote:On December 22 2011 04:10 tehemperorer wrote:On December 22 2011 03:56 Geiko wrote:On December 22 2011 03:46 tehemperorer wrote: Thanks Geiko! This post doesn't sell me at all on early phoenixes in PvP though! In PvP I always try for 3gate blink expand. If I see any sort of defensive play (i.e. cb'ed gateway, depleted cb on nexus, presence of a sentry, a 3rd pylon, all found in your 2 build orders), I keep my 5 or 8 stalkers and just expand while getting blink and probes. If you're not going early phoenix I handle that with blink and cautious probe production, but if you are, you can't have enough to do any lasting damage vs my stalkers and early nexus.
That being said, I usually get stargate after nexus is already half done (depends on stalker production requirements) and then get phoenix. Only after Nexus is near completion do I think it's okay to place stargate and get phoenix! I'm not chronoboosting my gateways in my build, nor is my nexus energy depleted. In fact it pretty much looks like a 4 gate as I can cancel my gas and go 4 gate anyways (which I often do against players that look too greedy). Blink rush into expand is an extremely greedy build which can die to a number of things including 4 gate, DT rushes, and 1 base immortal pushes, in that sense, it's normal that you are at an advantage against certain builds (stargate opener for example) and straight up lose to other builds. Also, 8 stalkers is not the critical mass to be cost effective vs phoenix. If you're going to expand and not cut probes, I can go and kill you directly with my 1base zealot/immortal/phoenix army. I gotcha but the two build orders you gave show things other than 4gate or DT rushing, like the 24gate and then 24pylon in the defensive 2gate Stargate, or the chronoboost use on Axslav's opening. I was saying most specifically those two builds don't suggest any pressure, and can't have any worthwhile stalker count (2gate vs 3gate) to really threaten or punish anything early on. The 8 stalkers I get are about when I place nexus, sometimes I get 11 or so, but I 99% of the time poke opponents ramp with those and at that time I am able to see sentry, immortal, etc. My opinion in PvP is that you need most flexible build to do well, and any sort of early phoenix builds don't offer that kind of flexibility. How is getting a gate at 24 indicating that I am not 4 gating ? I'm pretty sure I can do my build like explained in the OP, kill the scouting probe with my stalker, and proceed to 4 gate while being at most 10 seconds late on the 5:40 timing. And once again, I don't see how going for pure blink gives you more flexibility then opening stargate. Edit : In fact here it is. I only tried it once, but I'm sure I could could reach all units warped in at 5:45 just like any other 4 gate. Sorry Geiko I edited post after you quoted it. I was saying in general that there are better ways to get phoenix without rushing to them (opinion). I guess it all comes down to preference though, but from my viewpoint (SaroVati PvP Modified 3 Gate Build, no pressure or late pressure, expand get blink) early phoenixes are not the way to go. That being said, I read every word of your post, really liked it, and was convinced that reading it will help me somewhere down the line! :D EDIT: If you're going for a phoenix build from the start, then switch to 4gating, you will most likely warp those units in at or around your base, since 3gate builds patrol for pylons before warp gate is done. EDIT to Edit 2: I don't think you can squeeze in your forward pylons if you don't plan to do that from the start, and then we're talking about 4gate vs 3gate not phoenix. I may be confused though :p EDIT 3: Lemme watch more replays before I comment more :D
Lol ^^ The build described in the OP can be a perfect 4 gate with 60 mineral loss, without being late on anything. I'm pretty convinced that I can win 4 gate vs a standard blink rush (double gate at 30). I'd have to be a little more careful against a 3 stalker rush, but I'm still pretty sure that you wouldn't be able to defend if you're not getting a sentry and getting fastest possible blink. After that I don't know your build order, but I find it unfair that you claim that my builds looks like a tech build when in fact it's designed to make people think twice about being too greedy.
As far as going phoenix after expand, I'm really not convinced. Maybe you could write something up explaining how this works ? Everyone standard build has observers or someway to scout your base at that point in time, and reacting to stargate is very much easier than reacting to 2 phoenix in your base.
if you're on the EU server we could play out a few games and i could try to convince you
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On December 22 2011 04:42 Markwerf wrote: Nice guide, I've been playing phoenix a lot lately (even when I shouldn't) as I really like the style. I differ slightly in opinion on how you should play it though: 1. Phoenix build is a build you should only do when you have a good hunch your opponent is not 4 gating, there is no point in making a phoenix build completely 4 gate proof, as phoenix build is simply not good against that.. It's very hard to differentiate 4 gate from expansion and phoenix build is just not good against either. The solution is simply not to try and force your phoenix build to be 4 gate safe but only to play phoenix when your opponent is not 4 gating or at least doing a very slow version. I simply wait till I see 3 chrono on nexus and quick second gas from my opponent before I decide on stargate. I open gate-stargate-gate with zealot-stalker-stalker from the first gate. If i see they are likely to 4 gate I go robo instead and play gate-robo-gate with zealot-stalker-sentry. Note that since i change stargate to robo (-50 gas + 50 m) and stalker to sentry (+50 gas -75m) both builds are almost identical. ie I only commit by the time i put down my tech building. Also I generally don't go phoenix on relatively close spawns, it just doesn't work well and the 4 gate risk is even bigger.
2. Because of getting stargate greedier i get it faster and i also save a fair bit of chrono to get those first two phoenix super quickly. This allows me to scout much faster which is quite critical against some builds especially dt, (robo) blink and expansion. I also tend to not automatically go robo because I find that makes it harder to hold an aggresive blink all-in (very hard to get an immortal out before it hits) and especially sucks agianst expo and phoenix mirror. A good idea i guess which the guide sort of suggests is to make robo and cancel it against certain things.
3. DT are one of the major weaknesses of phoenix so I think a good suggestion is to make a partial walloff. Make the 3rd pylon covering the ramp and put the second gateway covering a part of the ramp. Then if you scout dt you can immediately wall off using a robo (so it can only be hit by 1 dt) and a cybercore (best hp). It's a more efficient way to fight the DT pressure then always going a sentry imo which doesn't fit the style of phoenix play further on and costs gas you rather spend on more phoenix.
Good remarks,
This is why I put Axslav's opening as well as my "safe" opening to fit everyone's style better. Axslav does exactly what you describe (it's explained more in the video if you feel like listening to it). Personally, I never trust anything anyone does, so getting gas and pylon could also mean that they are aggressive 3 gating you, which you will die to. I personally like being safe versus every thing, even if that means being a little bit behind against greedy builds, and then outplaying my opponents in the late game. At very very high levels, (pro level) i would understand that you need to take risk to get things up faster. Of course I adapt my build to what I see, mainly I get 2 zealots instead 2 stalkers out of the first gates if I feel very safe, or 1 zealot 1 stalker. But from what I understand, you are taking a lot of risk based on the assumption that a player that uses 3 CB on nexus will most likely not be 4 gating you 10 seconds later than normal...
Regarding wall-offs, they are way too vulnerable to robo blink harass, which stargate openings strugle enough as it is to deal with... units on hold position work fine, as well as the robo timing into cancel. I've personally never died to DT builds (except once where I hit g instead of h for my units and got a nice guardian shield ^^ with a dt in my base)
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On December 22 2011 04:44 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 04:32 tehemperorer wrote:On December 22 2011 04:16 Geiko wrote:On December 22 2011 04:10 tehemperorer wrote:On December 22 2011 03:56 Geiko wrote:On December 22 2011 03:46 tehemperorer wrote: Thanks Geiko! This post doesn't sell me at all on early phoenixes in PvP though! In PvP I always try for 3gate blink expand. If I see any sort of defensive play (i.e. cb'ed gateway, depleted cb on nexus, presence of a sentry, a 3rd pylon, all found in your 2 build orders), I keep my 5 or 8 stalkers and just expand while getting blink and probes. If you're not going early phoenix I handle that with blink and cautious probe production, but if you are, you can't have enough to do any lasting damage vs my stalkers and early nexus.
That being said, I usually get stargate after nexus is already half done (depends on stalker production requirements) and then get phoenix. Only after Nexus is near completion do I think it's okay to place stargate and get phoenix! I'm not chronoboosting my gateways in my build, nor is my nexus energy depleted. In fact it pretty much looks like a 4 gate as I can cancel my gas and go 4 gate anyways (which I often do against players that look too greedy). Blink rush into expand is an extremely greedy build which can die to a number of things including 4 gate, DT rushes, and 1 base immortal pushes, in that sense, it's normal that you are at an advantage against certain builds (stargate opener for example) and straight up lose to other builds. Also, 8 stalkers is not the critical mass to be cost effective vs phoenix. If you're going to expand and not cut probes, I can go and kill you directly with my 1base zealot/immortal/phoenix army. I gotcha but the two build orders you gave show things other than 4gate or DT rushing, like the 24gate and then 24pylon in the defensive 2gate Stargate, or the chronoboost use on Axslav's opening. I was saying most specifically those two builds don't suggest any pressure, and can't have any worthwhile stalker count (2gate vs 3gate) to really threaten or punish anything early on. The 8 stalkers I get are about when I place nexus, sometimes I get 11 or so, but I 99% of the time poke opponents ramp with those and at that time I am able to see sentry, immortal, etc. My opinion in PvP is that you need most flexible build to do well, and any sort of early phoenix builds don't offer that kind of flexibility. How is getting a gate at 24 indicating that I am not 4 gating ? I'm pretty sure I can do my build like explained in the OP, kill the scouting probe with my stalker, and proceed to 4 gate while being at most 10 seconds late on the 5:40 timing. And once again, I don't see how going for pure blink gives you more flexibility then opening stargate. Edit : In fact here it is. I only tried it once, but I'm sure I could could reach all units warped in at 5:45 just like any other 4 gate. Sorry Geiko I edited post after you quoted it. I was saying in general that there are better ways to get phoenix without rushing to them (opinion). I guess it all comes down to preference though, but from my viewpoint (SaroVati PvP Modified 3 Gate Build, no pressure or late pressure, expand get blink) early phoenixes are not the way to go. That being said, I read every word of your post, really liked it, and was convinced that reading it will help me somewhere down the line! :D EDIT: If you're going for a phoenix build from the start, then switch to 4gating, you will most likely warp those units in at or around your base, since 3gate builds patrol for pylons before warp gate is done. EDIT to Edit 2: I don't think you can squeeze in your forward pylons if you don't plan to do that from the start, and then we're talking about 4gate vs 3gate not phoenix. I may be confused though :p EDIT 3: Lemme watch more replays before I comment more :D Lol ^^ The build described in the OP can be a perfect 4 gate with 60 mineral loss, without being late on anything. I'm pretty convinced that I can win 4 gate vs a standard blink rush (double gate at 30). I'd have to be a little more careful against a 3 stalker rush, but I'm still pretty sure that you wouldn't be able to defend if you're not getting a sentry and getting fastest possible blink. After that I don't know your build order, but I find it unfair that you claim that my builds looks like a tech build when in fact it's designed to make people think twice about being too greedy. As far as going phoenix after expand, I'm really not convinced. Maybe you could write something up explaining how this works ? Everyone standard build has observers or someway to scout your base at that point in time, and reacting to stargate is very much easier than reacting to 2 phoenix in your base. if you're on the EU server we could play out a few games and i could try to convince you Fair enough man, unfortunately I'm not on EU! I have a few replays saved with phoenix after expand with the intent on doing a [D] or [G], but I think that's a far way off. Thanks for the discussion man!
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Caveat, ONLY good vs Blink all ins if you're johnny on the spot with forcefields... I mean SERIOUSLY epic with the forcefields.... I mean HALF a pixel off and STILL blocking your ramp totally can STILL kill you... you have to perfectly hit that sweet spot... I've seen axslav do this build a half dozen times vs 1 gate blink -> 3gate blink all in and normal 3 gate blink... and sometimes he just misses the forcefield by a smidge and the Blink toss gets the little bit of ramp vision needed and just insta wins... you have to be mega conscientious with this build.
You should also probably add somewhere that you should almost never get more than 8 phoenix.
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On December 22 2011 05:04 ShatterZer0 wrote: Caveat, ONLY good vs Blink all ins if you're johnny on the spot with forcefields... I mean SERIOUSLY epic with the forcefields.... I mean HALF a pixel off and STILL blocking your ramp totally can STILL kill you... you have to perfectly hit that sweet spot... I've seen axslav do this build a half dozen times vs 1 gate blink -> 3gate blink all in and normal 3 gate blink... and sometimes he just misses the forcefield by a smidge and the Blink toss gets the little bit of ramp vision needed and just insta wins... you have to be mega conscientious with this build.
You should also probably add somewhere that you should almost never get more than 8 phoenix.
It's in there somewhere ^^ stop at 8-10 phoenixes.
You're right that the first FF is hard to place well, but after that, it's just all about looking at your ingame timer and doing t + 15s. You just carefully prepare your FF and wait for him to move his stalker forward. You don't have anything else to do really, and if you don't do it you're dead, so you might as well take your time
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On December 22 2011 04:54 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 04:42 Markwerf wrote: Nice guide, I've been playing phoenix a lot lately (even when I shouldn't) as I really like the style. I differ slightly in opinion on how you should play it though: 1. Phoenix build is a build you should only do when you have a good hunch your opponent is not 4 gating, there is no point in making a phoenix build completely 4 gate proof, as phoenix build is simply not good against that.. It's very hard to differentiate 4 gate from expansion and phoenix build is just not good against either. The solution is simply not to try and force your phoenix build to be 4 gate safe but only to play phoenix when your opponent is not 4 gating or at least doing a very slow version. I simply wait till I see 3 chrono on nexus and quick second gas from my opponent before I decide on stargate. I open gate-stargate-gate with zealot-stalker-stalker from the first gate. If i see they are likely to 4 gate I go robo instead and play gate-robo-gate with zealot-stalker-sentry. Note that since i change stargate to robo (-50 gas + 50 m) and stalker to sentry (+50 gas -75m) both builds are almost identical. ie I only commit by the time i put down my tech building. Also I generally don't go phoenix on relatively close spawns, it just doesn't work well and the 4 gate risk is even bigger.
2. Because of getting stargate greedier i get it faster and i also save a fair bit of chrono to get those first two phoenix super quickly. This allows me to scout much faster which is quite critical against some builds especially dt, (robo) blink and expansion. I also tend to not automatically go robo because I find that makes it harder to hold an aggresive blink all-in (very hard to get an immortal out before it hits) and especially sucks agianst expo and phoenix mirror. A good idea i guess which the guide sort of suggests is to make robo and cancel it against certain things.
3. DT are one of the major weaknesses of phoenix so I think a good suggestion is to make a partial walloff. Make the 3rd pylon covering the ramp and put the second gateway covering a part of the ramp. Then if you scout dt you can immediately wall off using a robo (so it can only be hit by 1 dt) and a cybercore (best hp). It's a more efficient way to fight the DT pressure then always going a sentry imo which doesn't fit the style of phoenix play further on and costs gas you rather spend on more phoenix.
Good remarks, This is why I put Axslav's opening as well as my "safe" opening to fit everyone's style better. Axslav does exactly what you describe (it's explained more in the video if you feel like listening to it). Personally, I never trust anything anyone does, so getting gas and pylon could also mean that they are aggressive 3 gating you, which you will die to. I personally like being safe versus every thing, even if that means being a little bit behind against greedy builds, and then outplaying my opponents in the late game. At very very high levels, (pro level) i would understand that you need to take risk to get things up faster. Of course I adapt my build to what I see, mainly I get 2 zealots instead 2 stalkers out of the first gates if I feel very safe, or 1 zealot 1 stalker. But from what I understand, you are taking a lot of risk based on the assumption that a player that uses 3 CB on nexus will most likely not be 4 gating you 10 seconds later than normal... Regarding wall-offs, they are way too vulnerable to robo blink harass, which stargate openings strugle enough as it is to deal with... units on hold position work fine, as well as the robo timing into cancel. I've personally never died to DT builds (except once where I hit g instead of h for my units and got a nice guardian shield ^^ with a dt in my base)
Hmm I think phoenix is a build where you HAVE to take some risk as regards to the opening. If you've seen 2nd gas and 3rd chrono you have more time to defend and more time to patrol with your stalker to prevent eventual proxies. You should always let your hunch help on deciding between robo and stargate ofcourse. In PvP there is always a slight bit of build order luck I think, if you want to play completely safe and win on lategame skill mostly then roboblink is the build to go imo, that's even against most stuff and always has a solid chance.
As for the wall-off, I don't think a single gateway is vulnerable to robo blink. You only put 1 gateway as part of the walloff and only add more if you scout DT. Scouting DT is not so hard with a super fast stargate as you can actually see if the twlight council is active or not, with fast phoenix your phoenix fly over before blink can finish so an ineffective council is a pretty good sign of DT. Only then should you add 2 more buildings to the wall off (robo and extra cyber with cyber in the more vulnerable spot).
Arguably it can be hard to see in a flash if the council is active but if you don't see chrono active on it you should take a finer look: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Twilight_Council
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On December 22 2011 05:20 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 04:54 Geiko wrote:On December 22 2011 04:42 Markwerf wrote: Nice guide, I've been playing phoenix a lot lately (even when I shouldn't) as I really like the style. I differ slightly in opinion on how you should play it though: 1. Phoenix build is a build you should only do when you have a good hunch your opponent is not 4 gating, there is no point in making a phoenix build completely 4 gate proof, as phoenix build is simply not good against that.. It's very hard to differentiate 4 gate from expansion and phoenix build is just not good against either. The solution is simply not to try and force your phoenix build to be 4 gate safe but only to play phoenix when your opponent is not 4 gating or at least doing a very slow version. I simply wait till I see 3 chrono on nexus and quick second gas from my opponent before I decide on stargate. I open gate-stargate-gate with zealot-stalker-stalker from the first gate. If i see they are likely to 4 gate I go robo instead and play gate-robo-gate with zealot-stalker-sentry. Note that since i change stargate to robo (-50 gas + 50 m) and stalker to sentry (+50 gas -75m) both builds are almost identical. ie I only commit by the time i put down my tech building. Also I generally don't go phoenix on relatively close spawns, it just doesn't work well and the 4 gate risk is even bigger.
2. Because of getting stargate greedier i get it faster and i also save a fair bit of chrono to get those first two phoenix super quickly. This allows me to scout much faster which is quite critical against some builds especially dt, (robo) blink and expansion. I also tend to not automatically go robo because I find that makes it harder to hold an aggresive blink all-in (very hard to get an immortal out before it hits) and especially sucks agianst expo and phoenix mirror. A good idea i guess which the guide sort of suggests is to make robo and cancel it against certain things.
3. DT are one of the major weaknesses of phoenix so I think a good suggestion is to make a partial walloff. Make the 3rd pylon covering the ramp and put the second gateway covering a part of the ramp. Then if you scout dt you can immediately wall off using a robo (so it can only be hit by 1 dt) and a cybercore (best hp). It's a more efficient way to fight the DT pressure then always going a sentry imo which doesn't fit the style of phoenix play further on and costs gas you rather spend on more phoenix.
Good remarks, This is why I put Axslav's opening as well as my "safe" opening to fit everyone's style better. Axslav does exactly what you describe (it's explained more in the video if you feel like listening to it). Personally, I never trust anything anyone does, so getting gas and pylon could also mean that they are aggressive 3 gating you, which you will die to. I personally like being safe versus every thing, even if that means being a little bit behind against greedy builds, and then outplaying my opponents in the late game. At very very high levels, (pro level) i would understand that you need to take risk to get things up faster. Of course I adapt my build to what I see, mainly I get 2 zealots instead 2 stalkers out of the first gates if I feel very safe, or 1 zealot 1 stalker. But from what I understand, you are taking a lot of risk based on the assumption that a player that uses 3 CB on nexus will most likely not be 4 gating you 10 seconds later than normal... Regarding wall-offs, they are way too vulnerable to robo blink harass, which stargate openings strugle enough as it is to deal with... units on hold position work fine, as well as the robo timing into cancel. I've personally never died to DT builds (except once where I hit g instead of h for my units and got a nice guardian shield ^^ with a dt in my base) Hmm I think phoenix is a build where you HAVE to take some risk as regards to the opening. If you've seen 2nd gas and 3rd chrono you have more time to defend and more time to patrol with your stalker to prevent eventual proxies. You should always let your hunch help on deciding between robo and stargate ofcourse. In PvP there is always a slight bit of build order luck I think, if you want to play completely safe and win on lategame skill mostly then roboblink is the build to go imo, that's even against most stuff and always has a solid chance. As for the wall-off, I don't think a single gateway is vulnerable to robo blink. You only put 1 gateway as part of the walloff and only add more if you scout DT. Scouting DT is not so hard with a super fast stargate as you can actually see if the twlight council is active or not, with fast phoenix your phoenix fly over before blink can finish so an ineffective council is a pretty good sign of DT. Only then should you add 2 more buildings to the wall off (robo and extra cyber with cyber in the more vulnerable spot). Arguably it can be hard to see in a flash if the council is active but if you don't see chrono active on it you should take a finer look: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Twilight_Council
Once again it's a matter of preference I tried to show in this guide that you could play safe and yet not be extremely far behind any sort of openings, so I don't believe you HAVE to take some risks. I do agree with you however that it's a totally legit way of playing. 90% of times, 3 CB on nexus is a sign of no 4 gate so you can accept to lose those 10 % of games if you greediness allows you to win 12% more normal games. I guess it's kind of like tight players vs loose players in poker ^^
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wow , what an awesome article It's really cool to see people like Geiko who are HighMaster spending time to share such cool strat It's guy like you who make sc so interesting so please keep writing good articles
Thank you Geiko and thanks to TL as well
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thx geiko <3 pretty good guide
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
very well done ty for doing this <3
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Scouting a stargate with your phoenix really is frustrating. I was looking for a better counter response, but I guess chronoing phoenix is best, because you already invested in stargate and two phoenix.
On my level (high dia/low master on EU) good guides on TL reach the ladder play pretty fast :D
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On December 22 2011 20:32 Ada wrote: Scouting a stargate with your phoenix really is frustrating. I was looking for a better counter response, but I guess chronoing phoenix is best, because you already invested in stargate and two phoenix.
On my level (high dia/low master on EU) good guides on TL reach the ladder play pretty fast :D
phoenix vs phoenix might be the most obnoxious thing that can happen. It's basically like 4 gate vs 4 gate on tal darim, you can't expand and can't do anything else because if you do you lose the unit race immediately and pretty much die. Phoenix do so much damage versus phoenix themselves that having the higher phoenix count is crucial.
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Since I've watched EG.Axslav's stream some while ago (actually right when he started streaming :-)), phoenix-based-pvp has been my standard and I'm pretty successful with it at high masters. I've been collecting quite some experience with stargate play in pvp and I want to share some of my experiences that I feel could be added to the OP or discussed.
There are some suggestions on when to make the robotics facility (after having 2 gates + 1 stargate) in order to hold blink+obs allins or have detection in time vs the potential of dts as well as to stop blink harassment. However, I've found that since I always get 2 sentries at the start (stargate around 4:30min with perma cb phoenix production, only stopped if there is a 4gate) which accumulate some energy over time and since there is some gas leftover if you only stay on 2gates + stargate for a little while until you know for sure if your opponent expands or which tech route he exactly went for there is enough for 2 more sentries (up to a total of 4), I stay on pure zealot-sentry with zealots in a row on hold position and sentries a little bit in the back on my ramp (to prevent them from being sniped from blink+obs while you focus on your phoenix out on the map for instance) i can hold all these blink+obs allins with the use of a single gs whenever they engage and keeping the phoenix over my army picking of (like also suggested by geiko) 2-3 front stalkers. Through gs + phoenix being light you max lose a single phoenix and get 2-3 stalker kills, your sentries are safe in the back and zealots under gs are more or less invincible to stalker fire and expandable anyways. Whenever they use their blink once and didn't get out of range already (blink on top for instance), use ff to trap his units for your zealots. So I've found that unless the numbers of his stalkers get really big (like after expansion) that you don't need to get immortals which often leaves me the option to fit in a forge (if he doesn't expand or i'm afraid to die) to get upgrades for my ground units. Zealots/sentries as well as immortals at some later point all benefit so greatly from them that I had ridiculous matches already where I've lost like 20% of my army and killed his whole army of.
For the opening itself, some might be interested to try out my opening: 9 pylon (scout, i hate cheese :-)) 11 cb nexus 13 gate 13 cb nexus 15 gas 16 pylon 17 cyber (18 with 3rd cb on nexus) (if he uses a 3rd cb on his nexus I'll do the same) 18/19 2nd gas (depends on double pairing of probes, 3rd cb on nexus or not) 19 zealot 23 pylon 24 sentry
from there on i just want to point out the order, because I don't really memorize the supply values there anymore. :-) CB your first 2 sentries (your first 3 units will be zealot-sentry-sentry). Get a 2nd gateway and never ever cut probes. Get your pylon at 31 supply somewhere proxied where it's unlikely to be found but lets you do some zealot warpins for harass to send into his mineral line for later on. Around 10sec ingame time after your opponent's first stalker finishes (check his gate timing and check if he cb his first stalker or not) send a probe up his base to check for his opening. If he wants to go for a hard 4gate allin, he needs to get his stalker over to your base. If he sits up his ramp to deny scouting a hard 4gate is much less likely (just some additional information together with the initial scouting you already had). If it's not a hard 4gate, just get your stargate etc as planned. If it looks like a hard 4gate just get 2 more sentries and you just go super-easy-4gate defense by ffing your ramp forever, adding 2 more gates and after you have enough sentries (6 is perma ff) you warp in 4 zealots from the proxy to his mineral line and push down at the same time. Zealot-sentry always beats stalkers if you use ff + gs right and have zealots in the front. You can also let him up the ramp, ff trap him and rape him. You never need to cut probes at any point, since you can ff him out forever (inbase pylons should have been checked by you already anyways). Even if you missread your opponent and went for stargate after 2 sentries, if you get more sentries asap the moment you see him pushin to your ramp and starting pylons etc you can get them out in time to ff the ramp 24/7. You only need to watch out for not getting faked out while he is teching up greedily, but if they skimp on sentries themselves you can just 4gate them with eco and better units back. Use a hidden probe to sneak up his base, judge his opening andyour abilities to hold, snipe his probe to delay the push or use your game sense. You won't die if you make 4 instead of 2 sentries but you can be behind if the other guy rushed for stargate earlier and faked you out.
There are some numbers you put up in the guide about how many phoenix you need in order to kill different protoss units with just a single lift. When I started playing phoenix-pvp a while ago I did some extensive testing on this and I'd like to clarify his here (maybe you can update his in the OP):
zealot -> 2(3) phoenix: At first I always thought it's kinda random that you need either 2 or 3 phoenix for one lift to kill a zealot and was curious how this can be randomly delaying shots. But then I realised after more and more testing that while phoenix shoot quickly, they don't shoot instant like for instance marines. This means that if you have 2 phoenix and lift a zealot, but the phoenix that is shooting at the zealot is not right next to the zealot in the air at the moment of the last shot before the graviton beam ends, the zealot survives barely. The reason is simply that the phoenix shoots already but before the shots actually reach the zealot the time is out. So if you just click the phoenix that is shooting right next to the zealot in the air, he will always kill the zealot. This situation is really important when you only have 2 or 3phoenix since killing single zealots/sentries/stalkers are worth so much more than another probe kill and often times especially at the start the energy limits you more than anything else (especially if you want to go for an attack soon afterwards you will need the energy for actual combat so your phoenix are not idling around in the battle or because you need to defend some one base allin from your opponent. sentry -> 2phoenix needed (always). stalker -> 3(4) phoenix: like above, if you micro your phoenix to the target, 3 phoenix and one single lift are enough and saves valuable energy immo -> 5(6) phoenix dt -> 2 phoenix
As a last advice (something I missed in the OP) is a section where you mention energy management on your phoenix. You did mention the usage on probes vs allins, but maybe you could add 1-2 sentences about the energy management in battles. You did mention how to use phoenix in combat but often times you need to use them differently based on the phoenix number/available energy. So for instance, if you just did some initial harassment and you see some allin, you not only stop lifting his probes and save the energy for the combat you want to prioritorize stalkers over zealots every single time (sometimes even over sentries), because if all you have got is enough energy for like 3-5 lifts and you get allined, you better use that energy to kill as many units (and most expensive ones) in battle as possible. It makes no sense to rip apart some zealots with the double dmg just to realise that now your phoenix are sitting idle for a while and could have killed more expensive stuff. Warping in 3-5 more stalkers or zealots is a difference. However, (keep in mind that I'm a huge fan of zealot-sentry only composition to go along with phoenix in the early stages of the game) if you have enough energy, you lift and kill sentries first (gs prevents quite some dps from sentries and phoenix, ff can screw you up :-)), then immortals ofc (even if you don't have armored units immortals still do more dps than all other gateway units so the lift is so much more valuable to take them out of combat), then zealots (you kill them more than twice as fast as stalkers and if you are zealot-sentry-based if you ff behind his units and have zealots in front and your phoenix rape his zealots, you win every battle because zealots are the worst enemies in cost efficiency for you as long as you can prevent kiting).
Really nice guide overall, I'm kinda surprised it took people so long to start using it. I've not met many people using phoenix until two days ago, then I checked Teamliquid and see that 2 days ago a thread on phoenix pvp by Geiko has been started ... oh boy, now I know why everyone in master league blindly goes phoenix). However, most people tend to hide them until they have 3-5 and are not safe vs dts, react too late vs fast expand builds etc. They just hope to outmass you in phoenix numbers (which I think everyone hates if you are just down by one phoenix you can lose the game right there, no escape possible once engaged etc).
Update: added (6) to immortal, forgot that originally (the testing I did on this stuff had been already quite some weeks ago, they should be accurate though)
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I've been doing axslav's version of the phoenix build and it seemed really good until i realized that its actually really hard to hold the 4 gates that just get pylons down below your ramp or even close to your base and then just keep trying to go up the ramp, because you run out of sentry energy. Axslav gets 2 sentries pretty fast but his warpgate is really really late and he adds the second gate extremely late as well so he has to rely on really good probe control to hold 4 gates pretty much ever time, because his third sentry is really late. He gets his zealot finished when his core is done for a while so while he chronos stalkers it just makes up for the fact that they were already fairly delayed. Also a gm eu player posted in the 11 gate 3 gate pressure guide that he beat axslav with that as well which makes sense if you just get pylons near his base and force up the ramp. Also, Axslav loses to 4 gate a lot on his stream due to simple errors that are really easy to make, he kills the first couple units then just runs out of force field. I made a new build that looks more like a pressure build ( I think it makes opponent think u r trying to trick them into thinking that you are teching) and it holds 4 gate rather easily i think. I used the build order optimizer to come up with this mostly (its actually useful lol). 9 pylon 11 gate 2x chrono on probes 14 gas 15 pylon 16 core (scout after core) 17 zealot 20 gas 22 stalker and chrono warpgate only from now on except for last chrono 23 pylon 27 stalker 27 stargate 28 gate, u can put down gate before stargate if u want as well if u are really worried but you can hold 4 gate either way 30 sentry(chrono this with your last chrono) with this build you dont need to chrono units because you just get them out faster to begin with then axslav's build. It looks like 3 gate pressure that is getting a fake second gas. Also, if you scout 3 gate pressure I would probably pull from the second gas or have like 2 in each gas and just go defensive 3 gate with a higher worker count and more units to deny proxy pylons. Your sentry finishes right as warpgate does(about 5:30) and you can warp in another right away then after that your other gate is done and you can warp in from 2 gates to easily hold 4 gate without pulling probes. This build gets about 25-26 probes at the time a 4 gate would hit (you almost never cut probes) with a stargate done around 5:35 which I think is fairly close to the same timing as axslav's build if he builds stargate as fast as possible and way faster than geiko's. You have about 200 gas when warpgate is done which is enough for phoenix + robo or 2 sentries whatever you want. You can scout for expo with first phoenix as axslav suggested very fast so if they did some kind of fast expo you will see it right away and can react accordingly. I think this build reveals less than axslav's build, because lets face it if you scout 3 chrono's on probes and an 18 second gas its pretty much a guaranteed tech build while my build looks like 3 gate pressure for a while and might confuse the opponent. You can afford the core scout due to the fact that you get a really fast zealot which helps vs cannon and proxies, which is also when alej suggests in his 11 gate 3 gate pressure thread. (if you scout earlier it hinders your eco quite a bit since you already put up an early gate) Also if you see them play really greedy feel free to spend more chronos on probes to match their chrono energy because they cant have warpgate faster than you if they do so either way you are safe or just not mine from your second gas and try some pressure build.
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+ Show Spoiler +The first hint to this will be given by your initial phoenix or units who should spot a proxy pylon near your base. When you then scout his base, to find 3/4 gates and a twilight council with no units, check if he has expanded and leave your phoenixes in his base to see how all-in he is. Meanwhile at your base stop making phoenixes once you have 5 and get some immortals. FF your ramp as soon as you see him trying to get up. You should never let him gain high ground vision. You've got a full minute (4FFs) to warp in units and immortals (use chronoboost on production facilities !). If he tries to break your ramp, he will most likely walk a stalker up the ramp, blink to the side, and blink all of his stalkers to the side of your base. This is where the phoenixes come in to play. A-move your army towards them and with your phoenixes, lift off the first line of stalkers. He'll try to focus down the phoenixes but will take a lot of dps from your zealots and immortals, which is why you should never try to lift the stalkers in the back. Continue chasing after the stalkers, but never let your phoenixes get too far ahead of your main army. If he pulls back and expands, you can go down the ramp and expand yourself. Blink stalkers are extremely bad at setting up a contain since they rely on kiting the army. Use two spare phoenixes to scout what he is doing in his base. once again, adapt your probe production to what you see. Kill 3 or 4 probes with the phoenixes if you can. If he stops making stalkers and goes for a zealot/archon composition, stop making immortals and refer to the previous section. As before, you can either keep your phoenix count at 5-ish, or go up to ~8-10 for more harass heavy play.
I highly doubt that if someone sees you open phoenix when theyve gone blindly for a blink rush all-in that they are going to sit around and wait for you to get up to 5 phoenix, + have sentries + give you time to make immortals
Blink should be done with a decent number of stalkers before you will have time to really react.
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yeah blink hits pretty damn fast id probably just lift 2 probes and keep 2-3 phoenix in his base and cut as soon as he is near my base in order to afford immortals cause those are the #1 priority.. Lift his workers with that and spam sentries + immortal or as rsvp suggested in a game i watched him play if u want u can just save all lifts after initial 2 and head back to be safer just in case he blinks into your base somehow as well as having vision over his army without needing obs for the faster immortal. Should already have about 2 sentries with full energy cause most safe tech builds get that. U cant afford phoenix sentry immortal. Probably would add a third gate at least as well cause money will stockpile since u cant expo maybe even fourth. After like 2 immortals should be fine to barge down ramp with your 3 or so phoenix killing sentry if hes containing. and at that point if he expanded either counter expo or just go for like a 3-4 immortal 4 gate all in with whatever phoenix u got left.
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On December 22 2011 01:51 Geiko wrote: Like I said, this guide isn't on one particular style. I do believe however that he does get the cannon defense when teching to DTs. The only time I've heard him suggest to sack the natural is when he was behind anyways and was trying to get back in the game but cutting corners and teching straight to DTs.
Regarding the 2 stalkers, I know that he likes to stay at 2 stalkers but I honestly prefer at least 3 or 4, even at the price of one less phoenix. It's a matter of preference really. As long as you know what you want to achieve with the units that you are getting, that is the most important I think. For example, I like using my stalkers to poke his front, control watch towers, etc...
Ah, ok I might of missunderstood what he said. I still think I might try sacking the expansions anyway as I feel it's very easy to die once you've expanded but you're right about there beeing no real particular style that always works. There is usually several solutions to a problem. Especially on maps like Antiga and Shakuras I might expect your solution to be just as viable and probably even better since you don't lose the Nexus and mining time.
Yep, I just wanted to put it in there so that people realise that you should stay low on the Stalker count. I don't think 2 or 4 makes that a big of a diffrence as you say. The important part is that if you overmake Stalkers in the early to mid game your build just derails and becomes really inefficent since they are expensive units that really needs Blink to be usefull in P vs P.
Anyways this build has worked out well in the midgame for me. I still lose sometimes to 4 gate or Blink but that's due to my poor execution of the build so I'm a stick to it.
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On December 22 2011 19:01 iNcontroL wrote: very well done ty for doing this <3
iNcontroL <3 to you too
On December 23 2011 03:24 Fairwell wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Since I've watched EG.Axslav's stream some while ago (actually right when he started streaming :-)), phoenix-based-pvp has been my standard and I'm pretty successful with it at high masters. I've been collecting quite some experience with stargate play in pvp and I want to share some of my experiences that I feel could be added to the OP or discussed.
There are some suggestions on when to make the robotics facility (after having 2 gates + 1 stargate) in order to hold blink+obs allins or have detection in time vs the potential of dts as well as to stop blink harassment. However, I've found that since I always get 2 sentries at the start (stargate around 4:30min with perma cb phoenix production, only stopped if there is a 4gate) which accumulate some energy over time and since there is some gas leftover if you only stay on 2gates + stargate for a little while until you know for sure if your opponent expands or which tech route he exactly went for there is enough for 2 more sentries (up to a total of 4), I stay on pure zealot-sentry with zealots in a row on hold position and sentries a little bit in the back on my ramp (to prevent them from being sniped from blink+obs while you focus on your phoenix out on the map for instance) i can hold all these blink+obs allins with the use of a single gs whenever they engage and keeping the phoenix over my army picking of (like also suggested by geiko) 2-3 front stalkers. Through gs + phoenix being light you max lose a single phoenix and get 2-3 stalker kills, your sentries are safe in the back and zealots under gs are more or less invincible to stalker fire and expandable anyways. Whenever they use their blink once and didn't get out of range already (blink on top for instance), use ff to trap his units for your zealots. So I've found that unless the numbers of his stalkers get really big (like after expansion) that you don't need to get immortals which often leaves me the option to fit in a forge (if he doesn't expand or i'm afraid to die) to get upgrades for my ground units. Zealots/sentries as well as immortals at some later point all benefit so greatly from them that I had ridiculous matches already where I've lost like 20% of my army and killed his whole army of.
For the opening itself, some might be interested to try out my opening: 9 pylon (scout, i hate cheese :-)) 11 cb nexus 13 gate 13 cb nexus 15 gas 16 pylon 17 cyber (18 with 3rd cb on nexus) (if he uses a 3rd cb on his nexus I'll do the same) 18/19 2nd gas (depends on double pairing of probes, 3rd cb on nexus or not) 19 zealot 23 pylon 24 sentry
from there on i just want to point out the order, because I don't really memorize the supply values there anymore. :-) CB your first 2 sentries (your first 3 units will be zealot-sentry-sentry). Get a 2nd gateway and never ever cut probes. Get your pylon at 31 supply somewhere proxied where it's unlikely to be found but lets you do some zealot warpins for harass to send into his mineral line for later on. Around 10sec ingame time after your opponent's first stalker finishes (check his gate timing and check if he cb his first stalker or not) send a probe up his base to check for his opening. If he wants to go for a hard 4gate allin, he needs to get his stalker over to your base. If he sits up his ramp to deny scouting a hard 4gate is much less likely (just some additional information together with the initial scouting you already had). If it's not a hard 4gate, just get your stargate etc as planned. If it looks like a hard 4gate just get 2 more sentries and you just go super-easy-4gate defense by ffing your ramp forever, adding 2 more gates and after you have enough sentries (6 is perma ff) you warp in 4 zealots from the proxy to his mineral line and push down at the same time. Zealot-sentry always beats stalkers if you use ff + gs right and have zealots in the front. You can also let him up the ramp, ff trap him and rape him. You never need to cut probes at any point, since you can ff him out forever (inbase pylons should have been checked by you already anyways). Even if you missread your opponent and went for stargate after 2 sentries, if you get more sentries asap the moment you see him pushin to your ramp and starting pylons etc you can get them out in time to ff the ramp 24/7. You only need to watch out for not getting faked out while he is teching up greedily, but if they skimp on sentries themselves you can just 4gate them with eco and better units back. Use a hidden probe to sneak up his base, judge his opening andyour abilities to hold, snipe his probe to delay the push or use your game sense. You won't die if you make 4 instead of 2 sentries but you can be behind if the other guy rushed for stargate earlier and faked you out.
There are some numbers you put up in the guide about how many phoenix you need in order to kill different protoss units with just a single lift. When I started playing phoenix-pvp a while ago I did some extensive testing on this and I'd like to clarify his here (maybe you can update his in the OP):
zealot -> 2(3) phoenix: At first I always thought it's kinda random that you need either 2 or 3 phoenix for one lift to kill a zealot and was curious how this can be randomly delaying shots. But then I realised after more and more testing that while phoenix shoot quickly, they don't shoot instant like for instance marines. This means that if you have 2 phoenix and lift a zealot, but the phoenix that is shooting at the zealot is not right next to the zealot in the air at the moment of the last shot before the graviton beam ends, the zealot survives barely. The reason is simply that the phoenix shoots already but before the shots actually reach the zealot the time is out. So if you just click the phoenix that is shooting right next to the zealot in the air, he will always kill the zealot. This situation is really important when you only have 2 or 3phoenix since killing single zealots/sentries/stalkers are worth so much more than another probe kill and often times especially at the start the energy limits you more than anything else (especially if you want to go for an attack soon afterwards you will need the energy for actual combat so your phoenix are not idling around in the battle or because you need to defend some one base allin from your opponent. sentry -> 2phoenix needed (always). stalker -> 3(4) phoenix: like above, if you micro your phoenix to the target, 3 phoenix and one single lift are enough and saves valuable energy immo -> 5(6) phoenix dt -> 2 phoenix
As a last advice (something I missed in the OP) is a section where you mention energy management on your phoenix. You did mention the usage on probes vs allins, but maybe you could add 1-2 sentences about the energy management in battles. You did mention how to use phoenix in combat but often times you need to use them differently based on the phoenix number/available energy. So for instance, if you just did some initial harassment and you see some allin, you not only stop lifting his probes and save the energy for the combat you want to prioritorize stalkers over zealots every single time (sometimes even over sentries), because if all you have got is enough energy for like 3-5 lifts and you get allined, you better use that energy to kill as many units (and most expensive ones) in battle as possible. It makes no sense to rip apart some zealots with the double dmg just to realise that now your phoenix are sitting idle for a while and could have killed more expensive stuff. Warping in 3-5 more stalkers or zealots is a difference. However, (keep in mind that I'm a huge fan of zealot-sentry only composition to go along with phoenix in the early stages of the game) if you have enough energy, you lift and kill sentries first (gs prevents quite some dps from sentries and phoenix, ff can screw you up :-)), then immortals ofc (even if you don't have armored units immortals still do more dps than all other gateway units so the lift is so much more valuable to take them out of combat), then zealots (you kill them more than twice as fast as stalkers and if you are zealot-sentry-based if you ff behind his units and have zealots in front and your phoenix rape his zealots, you win every battle because zealots are the worst enemies in cost efficiency for you as long as you can prevent kiting).
Really nice guide overall, I'm kinda surprised it took people so long to start using it. I've not met many people using phoenix until two days ago, then I checked Teamliquid and see that 2 days ago a thread on phoenix pvp by Geiko has been started ... oh boy, now I know why everyone in master league blindly goes phoenix). However, most people tend to hide them until they have 3-5 and are not safe vs dts, react too late vs fast expand builds etc. They just hope to outmass you in phoenix numbers (which I think everyone hates if you are just down by one phoenix you can lose the game right there, no escape possible once engaged etc).
Update: added (6) to immortal, forgot that originally (the testing I did on this stuff had been already quite some weeks ago, they should be accurate though)
Very good points. Like I stated in the guide, It is also possible to expand without the robo as you said, however holding commited blink attacks can be very tricky against someone with good blink micro. If you choose to do this, you need a third gate before expanding though.
I will definitely add a paragraph about energy management when I get the chance to write it.
On December 23 2011 15:59 AlphaDotCom wrote:+ Show Spoiler + I've been doing axslav's version of the phoenix build and it seemed really good until i realized that its actually really hard to hold the 4 gates that just get pylons down below your ramp or even close to your base and then just keep trying to go up the ramp, because you run out of sentry energy. Axslav gets 2 sentries pretty fast but his warpgate is really really late and he adds the second gate extremely late as well so he has to rely on really good probe control to hold 4 gates pretty much ever time, because his third sentry is really late. He gets his zealot finished when his core is done for a while so while he chronos stalkers it just makes up for the fact that they were already fairly delayed. Also a gm eu player posted in the 11 gate 3 gate pressure guide that he beat axslav with that as well which makes sense if you just get pylons near his base and force up the ramp. Also, Axslav loses to 4 gate a lot on his stream due to simple errors that are really easy to make, he kills the first couple units then just runs out of force field. I made a new build that looks more like a pressure build ( I think it makes opponent think u r trying to trick them into thinking that you are teching) and it holds 4 gate rather easily i think. I used the build order optimizer to come up with this mostly (its actually useful lol). 9 pylon 11 gate 2x chrono on probes 14 gas 15 pylon 16 core (scout after core) 17 zealot 20 gas 22 stalker and chrono warpgate only from now on except for last chrono 23 pylon 27 stalker 27 stargate 28 gate, u can put down gate before stargate if u want as well if u are really worried but you can hold 4 gate either way 30 sentry(chrono this with your last chrono) with this build you dont need to chrono units because you just get them out faster to begin with then axslav's build. It looks like 3 gate pressure that is getting a fake second gas. Also, if you scout 3 gate pressure I would probably pull from the second gas or have like 2 in each gas and just go defensive 3 gate with a higher worker count and more units to deny proxy pylons. Your sentry finishes right as warpgate does(about 5:30) and you can warp in another right away then after that your other gate is done and you can warp in from 2 gates to easily hold 4 gate without pulling probes. This build gets about 25-26 probes at the time a 4 gate would hit (you almost never cut probes) with a stargate done around 5:35 which I think is fairly close to the same timing as axslav's build if he builds stargate as fast as possible and way faster than geiko's. You have about 200 gas when warpgate is done which is enough for phoenix + robo or 2 sentries whatever you want. You can scout for expo with first phoenix as axslav suggested very fast so if they did some kind of fast expo you will see it right away and can react accordingly. I think this build reveals less than axslav's build, because lets face it if you scout 3 chrono's on probes and an 18 second gas its pretty much a guaranteed tech build while my build looks like 3 gate pressure for a while and might confuse the opponent. You can afford the core scout due to the fact that you get a really fast zealot which helps vs cannon and proxies, which is also when alej suggests in his 11 gate 3 gate pressure thread. (if you scout earlier it hinders your eco quite a bit since you already put up an early gate) Also if you see them play really greedy feel free to spend more chronos on probes to match their chrono energy because they cant have warpgate faster than you if they do so either way you are safe or just not mine from your second gas and try some pressure build.
My experience with Axslav's opener is very limited so I won't be of much help, however it is very clear that it is not made to work very well against 4 gates, only to survive against it. If you have trouble against 4 gate, you should consider using a build you are confortable with, with 2 or 3 gates and transition into phoenixes from there.
On December 23 2011 16:09 AGIANTSMURF wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The first hint to this will be given by your initial phoenix or units who should spot a proxy pylon near your base. When you then scout his base, to find 3/4 gates and a twilight council with no units, check if he has expanded and leave your phoenixes in his base to see how all-in he is. Meanwhile at your base stop making phoenixes once you have 5 and get some immortals. FF your ramp as soon as you see him trying to get up. You should never let him gain high ground vision. You've got a full minute (4FFs) to warp in units and immortals (use chronoboost on production facilities !). If he tries to break your ramp, he will most likely walk a stalker up the ramp, blink to the side, and blink all of his stalkers to the side of your base. This is where the phoenixes come in to play. A-move your army towards them and with your phoenixes, lift off the first line of stalkers. He'll try to focus down the phoenixes but will take a lot of dps from your zealots and immortals, which is why you should never try to lift the stalkers in the back. Continue chasing after the stalkers, but never let your phoenixes get too far ahead of your main army. If he pulls back and expands, you can go down the ramp and expand yourself. Blink stalkers are extremely bad at setting up a contain since they rely on kiting the army. Use two spare phoenixes to scout what he is doing in his base. once again, adapt your probe production to what you see. Kill 3 or 4 probes with the phoenixes if you can. If he stops making stalkers and goes for a zealot/archon composition, stop making immortals and refer to the previous section. As before, you can either keep your phoenix count at 5-ish, or go up to ~8-10 for more harass heavy play.
I highly doubt that if someone sees you open phoenix when theyve gone blindly for a blink rush all-in that they are going to sit around and wait for you to get up to 5 phoenix, + have sentries + give you time to make immortals Blink should be done with a decent number of stalkers before you will have time to really react.
If you FF your ramp, he'll have no other choice than to sit around while you are making immortals, that's the point of forcefielding your ramp ^^. I'm working on some more replays against blink all-ins since that seems like a question that is frequently asked.
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I feel like as long as you scout the natural with the first Phoenix and his main once you have two that Blink play isn't a big issue. I will always throw down the Robotics Facility after not scouting a Nexus at his natural and whilst it's building I feel like I have time to scout him in time untill I have to chose if I build an Immortal or an Observer. Infact I feel kind of safe but then again I'm only mid masters so the players Blink micro ain't that great tbh. It might be much tougher higher up the ladder. I have to say though that I had someone kill me with a 4 Gate Blink all in but I botched the FF so it was my mistake more then the build.
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This looks effective, and more importantly, like a lot of fun. Can't wait to give it a shot. Thanks a lot!
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