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Thanks! This helped me alot, won quite a few games with just the first push. Been doing other builds too, because doing the same build over and over again just gets boring
I've noticed that there's a huge variety in skill levels though, some people just crush the push I die like 5 minutes later. Others don't even have warp gate or ling speed by the time I arrive. (you need that asap, right?)
Also what are general timings for a 3rd base and the amount of SCVs I should have by ~10minutes and ~15minutes?
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Just wanna tell my experience with that build. First: I really like this guide. It's a simple build even boons like me can manage to pull off decently. I last played ladder in season 1 and 2. Season 1 I got promoted to silver (yay!) and ended there in s2 at like rank 20. Lost motivation made me stop playing sc2 completly though I've always been following streams as this game is great to watch, even when you dont play it actively. With the new season I restarted as I read about this build. Jumped into the game played your bo vs ai, met some old buddies played some games, lost horribly. Then my 5 placement matches (you apparently have to do 5 placement matches again after missing a few seasons). No matter which race I faced I played this bo. Went 4-1 (lost vs. a gold player) and got placed in platinum. yay again :D . But i will propably fall down as I'm truly not a platinum player. I will just go on with that build. Lets see what happens Btw thanks for the transitions!
Just one thing that worked out for me one time vs tanks: I scouted a T going for a factory after first rax (techlab) and assumed he'd go tank. So i pushed out earlier and caught him without siege and killed his front with 2 or 3 marauders + a few marines and scvs. he left, though there was only 1 marauder left. guess the guy was not the best player around as he did not pull scvs (k.. i also forget that all the time when im pressured :D ). Don't even know if that destroys the meaning of this build, but it worked for me.
Thx again for that build as it gives a clear and simple attack plan to which you can stick to. I think when i started sc2/rts I made it to complicated trying to follow the hard to execute bos and trying something new in every game. Now it seems way simpler - something I can work with.
€: just checked my match history. i went 3-2 in placement matches not 4-1.
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Having just switched to Terran from Protoss (after a long time of trying to decide which race to play), having something like this is very useful, so thanks
My only problem at the moment is transitioning into the midgame from it - I seem to either win on my first push, or make a horrible mess of it later.. .Still, that's something for me to work on, and it's helping me get my mechanics better, which is always good, so again, thanks :D
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I've tried 3 Rax a dozen times now, and have improved noticeably. Not exactly from Bronze to Silver--more like improving my average resource/unit/building count from one-quarter my opponent's totals up to nearly half. I'm still a long way from winning my first game, but it's progress of a sort.
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You want your 3rd around ~13 min. You want around 40 scvs at 10 minutes and 70 by 15 minutes. You dont need more than 70 scvs. However the scenario of having 70 by 15 is rare as most often you will be harassed and lose scvs.
The things you are talking about when people crush the push - learn to identify a situation when you cant break him and then back off (dont attack at all), expand, transition, macro.
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I tried this build last night on ladder after getting the timings down in practise games, and had a pretty serious win rate with it. I had managed to tank down to #60 silver while trying (badly) to learn Zerg, and this rocketed me back up to ~#20 in 11 games. Two losses, nine wins- and I had to transition out of this 3 or 4 times while not knowing Terran very well. Amusingly enough, most Terrans at this level, when cornered, will either turtle up with tanks or go cloaked banshees so it's not too difficult to work around that.
Thanks for the guide!
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Count me as another satisfied customer. I started playing SC2 a few weeks ago, never having played an online multiplayer RTS before, mostly because I had gotten into watching pro matches and I wanted to become a more informed spectator. I'm 31, and I don't have the time, reflexes, or inclination to spend a ton of time getting really good at the game, so I just wanted to be halfway decent (i.e., not in bronze). Using this build and playing a game or two a day has already improved my mechanics to the point where I pretty consistently get big supply leads against my bronze opponents, and win if I don't do something incredibly dumb (or sometimes, even if I do).
I have the same experience as Catnap with these low level Terrans--I rarely kill them with the first push (partly because I still tend to be a bit late with it), but then they just turtle up on one base while I expand all over the map, deny their silly hidden expansions, and build up a huge army to kill them. In addition to the cloaked banshees, I find that sending in cloaked ghosts to nuke my army is another popular move, but you just need to build a raven to deal with that strategy.
Like others have said, I'd love to see a follow-up to this with a slightly more advanced/less all-in build. The thing I especially love about this guide is that it includes timings for everything in addition to supply counts, since getting everything done fast is the real challenge for a newbie.
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After using this build, I got the following response after a game, which I think is a good sign
Girugamesh: silver my !@#$ :/ Girugamesh has reconnected. You: I'll take that as a compliment The player you are trying to whisper is not currently accepting messages from players who are not on their friends list. Girugamesh: go play ur main acc ty You: screenshotted The player you are trying to whisper is not currently accepting messages from players who are not on their friends list.
http://drop.sc/94223 Apparently being able to spot drops and "hidden" expansion attempts makes me a smurf!
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Lol Monkeyballs, that was great. Haven't had anyone bm me yet...just lots and lots of rage quits.
This build is just too good at the low levels. I've been playing mostly gold players (4 in silver now) and am still crushing them most of the time. Getting better at transitioning after the first push as well. Beat my first 15 hatch zerg today, pretty proud of that. Have only lost to terran once so far...started saving energy after the 3rd mule in case they're going cloaked banshees and that's worked well.
Trying not to sound like I'm giving a testimonial on an infomercial right now, but this shit works. I began playing like a week ago and so far I'm 14 - 6 on the ladder. Starting to feel guilty for beating up on all the newbs...
Let us know when you post your next guide Khazidhea!
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I've been enjoying this build too, and I'm mid silver after only a handful of games. I'm not finding it "auto win", but it is certainly solid.
More importantly, I think the build is actually teaching me a lot - mechanics, multitasking, macro, etc. For those that enjoy such things, I've been blogging about my progress, and you can find my blog here.
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You should scout after the barracks are done, I dont think there is any reason to scout earlier while doing this build. You only need to find where your opponent is.
In general, I would do the same late scout in TvZ and TvT because I think you cant really see anything and you risk losing the scouting scv. In TvP would scout after rax on 2 player maps, scout on 14 on small 4 player maps (Shattered, Shakuras) and scout on 13 on big maps (Taldarim, Terminus). This way in TvP I can get in before the stalker, count gas, pylons and chronoboost - these combined tell you a lot. I need this in TvP because normally I do 1 rax FE with marines only and I need to prepare for whatever is coming.
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Khazidhea thank you so much for this post man.
I'm Bronze and I use the following compositions/builds:
1) TvT (Marine Tank Medivac Viking)
2) TvP (Your build order but 2xtech labs instead of 2xreactors so I can pump out more maruaders)
3) TvZ (Your Exact Build)
I'm trying to execute this build to perfection, apart from messing up my wall and stop producing scv's after I push I think i'm getting the rest right. If you (or anyone else) could be kind enough to answer the following questions for me:
1) What is the difference between using your build and Trump SC's 3 Rax Build? I know at my level I shouldn't be worrying about maximum efficiency but timing wise it works out that you get STIM earlier but he gets more units earlier but at the 7:00 mark your unit count is exactly the same! Can you maybe help me out with the pros and cons of both builds even though I know they are very similar
2) What happens after executing this attack in TvP and it ends up being an almost 1 for 1 army trade and I feel that I can win by putting pressure. Would it be feasible to rather build eng bay and get +1 Weapons / +1 Armor and carry on putting pressure instead of expanding? If not why not?
3) Is there no way someone can use Yabot or some other tool to execute both the builds and see a graph at the end of both builds (looking at resources and armies)
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On January 19 2012 03:36 lickwidice wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Khazidhea thank you so much for this post man. I'm Bronze and I use the following compositions/builds: 1) TvT (Marine Tank Medivac Viking) 2) TvP (Your build order but 2xtech labs instead of 2xreactors so I can pump out more maruaders) 3) TvZ (Your Exact Build) I'm trying to execute this build to perfection, apart from messing up my wall and stop producing scv's after I push I think i'm getting the rest right. If you (or anyone else) could be kind enough to answer the following questions for me: 1) What is the difference between using your build and Trump SC's 3 Rax Build? I know at my level I shouldn't be worrying about maximum efficiency but timing wise it works out that you get STIM earlier but he gets more units earlier but at the 7:00 mark your unit count is exactly the same! Can you maybe help me out with the pros and cons of both builds even though I know they are very similar 2) What happens after executing this attack in TvP and it ends up being an almost 1 for 1 army trade and I feel that I can win by putting pressure. Would it be feasible to rather build eng bay and get +1 Weapons / +1 Armor and carry on putting pressure instead of expanding? If not why not? 3) Is there no way someone can use Yabot or some other tool to execute both the builds and see a graph at the end of both builds (looking at resources and armies)
I'm by no means a Master's Terran, but I can attempt to field your question, and I'd be happy to see higher-level input from elsewhere if some of my thoughts are deemed mistaken. : )
1 ) I used to use that same 3rax build (though I got it off the TL forums instead of a youtube vid). Before the rax build time nerf you could get ~52 supply by 6:40 with stim and concussive and push, which is what it seems like Trump did in that video. However, since the nerf you can only get to about 45-47 supply. The major difference is that with this build you will end up with a different mix of marines and marauders. At high gold/mid plat (which is where I am at consequently) I tend to see Protoss players use a higher ratio of zealots to stalkers, which necessitates a higher ratio of marines to marauders to burn them down. I actually stopped using Trump's 3 rax in favor of this one because I was losing consistently to Protoss and found that the higher marine count helped burn down those zealots which made it easier to get at the stalkers which were doing a bulk of the damage (since I was stutter-kiting zealots the stalkers just got free hits all day). Now-days I tend to use the 1rax marauder FE w/concussive, but that's beside the point.
Yes, you do end up with fewer units earlier on because of the difference in timing on the 2nd and 3rd rax, but keep in mind that "earlier on" is still early enough that you won't really get attacked. The Protoss player may do a poke to see what you're up to, but if you can't hold a poke, then you've got more significant issues. Once those double reactors kick in your unit count will climb higher much faster considering marines build faster than marauders, which is probably why you're noticing an equaling-out of the supplies between the two builds despite one starting the 2nd rax earlier than the other.
2 ) I'd say it really depends on what their infrastructure looks like. It may feel like you can win by applying additional pressure, but keep in mind the way the warp mechanic works: they can do a round of warp-ins (~8 supply on 4gates), CB their gates, and warp in again ~22 seconds later. Most maps have a 30+ second rush distance if I remember correctly, so they'll get at least two warp-ins before your army arrives again, and then they have the defensive warp-in advantage and may continue to reinforce while you're attacking. Defensive 4gates, and even 3gate robo with an immortal would be difficult to break on one base, esp. if they micro their immortal to FF your marauders. The only time I would even consider pressuring them again is if they tried to expand, in which case they have resources tied up in a Nexus -- but as soon as they cancel and use that money for another warp-in cycle, I think it's best to consider the cancel as damage dealt and just retreat. Honestly, when I used to make that kind of timing push I always expanded behind it so that by the time my push has concluded I had my natural, at which point I added an ebay for +1 and a 4th rax, then got bunkers ASAP.
These days I don't commit to those kinds of timing pushes anymore. I feel like you really are better off just pressuring them without committing to an attack. If they're one-basing, I'm always wary of a timing attack and won't expand, I just leave the CC in my main for added econ. But if they expanded, I lower my CC to get my second base running while poking and prod at theirs, but I try to remain prepared to back away and take a xel'naga while getting up to 5 rax and an ebay for +1.
I welcome comments on my decision-making, as I am still learning this game, as well. But that's how I would look at those situations, lickwidice. : D
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One problem with this build - TL first. Reactor should come first, marines are good/v.good v all units early and should be the core of the army.
2nd problem, Combat Shield is stronger than stim generally speaking. So I would buy it first, it also researches quicker! A marine w only stim loses to a marine w only CShield (survives with 7hp). Also, it makes a marine 33% tougher v a tank - 4 shots required instead of 3. Tougher vs zealots and stalkers. DTs take 2 slices, not one to kill a CShield marine.
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Hey thanks for this build, I've had a lot of success in the lower leagues with it but I'm starting to lose quite frequently. I was wondering if you could have a look at this specific replay where I was sure my first push could finish him but failed. Keep in mind I'm fairly new to SC2 so my mechanics etc aren't great. Thank you.
http://drop.sc/95340
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On January 20 2012 18:58 Daggeroth wrote:Hey thanks for this build, I've had a lot of success in the lower leagues with it but I'm starting to lose quite frequently. I was wondering if you could have a look at this specific replay where I was sure my first push could finish him but failed. Keep in mind I'm fairly new to SC2 so my mechanics etc aren't great. Thank you. http://drop.sc/95340 You stopped building units at 8:30 while you're killing the two thors. Keep producing units and rally them into the opponents natural. And 4 marines + 1 marauder are sitting in your base. With them and the units you missed to pruduce you would have crushed the few marines and the last thor who popped out of the factory.
I think it would have been even better to destroy his rax at the ramp and the supply depot. Then move back, wait for more units and combat shield to finish (it was almost done) and kill him.
edit: there is no close spawn at Shattered
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lickwidice, the trump's build is a _tiny_ bit outdated with rax build time nerf and most importantly stim research time nerf, so the timings are a bit different these days. However the main thing here is more marines vs more marauders and there was quite a lot of discussion about it in this thread. I prefer more marines because it is much more dps.
Expanding would be better, because if you traded armies, he cant really put pressure and you cant one base all game long - you will run out of resources eventually. Beside, in TvP I think its either he does not have sentries and dies or forcefields the ramp and you cant do anything. Learn to expand
I never used yabot. Do both builds vs AI and compare it yourself? I cant really help here.
Wren.822 - this guy is doing it right! I like the way he thinks about the game.
BioTech, reactor first will delay your stim by A LOT. I do favor the marines, that's why I go double reactor later on.
As you have some marauders in your army, stim is better because it benefits both marines and marauders. I can argue that stimmed marine\marauder would take less hits from melee units thanks to kiting more efficiently. In addition lings just melt under stimmed marines. It's about burst damage you know. In TvT marauders kill tanks faster. And marauders can kite marines without stim all day long. Generally speaking you go stim first for timing attacks and shields for defense.
I will have a look at the replay later, Daggeroth. But seems like KiNGxXx pointed out the main thing - you stopped building units. Keep an eye on that. Remember, the build is designed to be simple just so that you can focus on keeping up the production (aka macro).
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@Daggeroth:
KiNGxXx did point out one of the major problems with your play: slippages in macro. I watched your replay and took some notes on things I saw that were good, and things that could be improved. And while KiNGxXx takes the more offensive approach to crushing your opponent, I am more of a macro player, myself, so I will provide a slightly different perspective on how I would have played that game out.
+ Show Spoiler +For starters you have gaps in your SCV production. Note that when your Orbital finishes you manage to sneak half-a-worker ahead of your opponent, which is awesome. But between 18 supply and your push there are gaps here-and-there in your worker production that last anywhere from 1-20 seconds that allow your opponent to get as much as 6 workers ahead. That's huge in terms of early-game income. So if you can work on smoothing out your opener and doing everything flawlessly in the first few minutes then you'll be in a much better position. I suggest opening up a game vs the easy AI and just do that opener over and over, quit the game at 7:00 and watch the replay, look for gaps in your macro, and do it again with those gaps in mind until you can do those first 7 minutes by rote. That's how I improved my openers.
As far as unit production goes the huge gap from 8:29-9:06 KiNGxXx pointed out where you were attacking and not producing is a glaring error. However, I would also note that from 3:53 (when your xlab finished) until around 4:21 you weren't producing a marauder out of your rax. That first marauder could have started earlier. Also, you had almost 400 minerals by the time you started rax 2 and 3. Try to get that first worker back to your mineral line as soon as the 2nd depot is done, then just pull two more to do rax 2 and 3 at around 250 minerals, and they should start right around 300, or shortly thereafter (it depends on where you put those rax relative to the mineral line, obviously).
Your expansion CC could have gone down while your army was marching across the field. It's okay to cut army units as you're moving out in order to build that CC, but as soon as it starts you should resume making units. And that's also a good time to start rallying to the bottom of your ramp instead of in to your main. You know your opponent isn't attacking you, and it will give you a footing on the low-ground to secure your expansion when the CC is done.
The push timing was pretty spot-on, right around 7 minutes. It could have come a tad earlier, but in this circumstance it didn't much matter since your opponent was rushing Thors and those take a dog's age to build in the early game. But if you leave your main when concussive is about 20-25 seconds away from finishing, you'll arrive shortly after it completes and you can begin your attack immediately, instead of delaying the push that extra 20-30 seconds due to travel time.
I would agree with KiNGxXx regarding that push in to your opponent's main: you were better off killing the depot and the rax. Once his marines ran away if you just attack the production there at the ramp you force him to do one of two things:
1. Come to you with his army, or 2. Sacrifice the depot and rax, potentially becoming supply blocked.
When he chooses option 1 (because frankly, who wouldn't?) you are then free to retreat down his ramp and leave, your army still intact, as opposed to rushing headlong in to his base not-knowing what you're going to find, and having that much farther to go if you decide you want to retreat. And who knows? Focusing down the depot first might blow it up before you are forced to run away, doing guaranteed damage instead of taking a risk that he doesn't have a tank back there to blow your charging army to bits.
I liked your use of the high ground to kill all those marines when he came to your base, with one caveat: don't stim.
If you move-command your units to the edge of the cliff, then attack, you will still do a fair amount of damage, esp. if you focus down the weak marines first (shift+r-click, r-click, r-click, r-click), and your army takes no damage to itself. After he pulled that Thor away and scanned was a good time to move down your ramp. If he blew a scan you know he's moving some sort of army in to position and wants to know the location and size of your own army. You had a decent ball, and you definitely don't want to engage a Thor or any splash-damage unit in that little choke at the top of your ramp, you'll be giving the opponent a better opportunity to concave at the bottom of your ramp. You want to move down and take a defensive posture at the bottom of your ramp, giving you a good surface area to concave, and again -- space to secure your natural expansion. Consequently, moving down would have also denied him that first tank placement that kept you in your base the rest of the game. By taking the space at the bottom of the ramp you can also further abuse the high ground by rallying reinforcements to the edge of that cliff and extending your concave to the high ground, forcing him to expose vikings or use a scan to damage them.
I also feel like your army composition could have been further improved by getting a 2nd xlab instead of a 3rd reactor. When you see thors and tanks, you want more marauders if you're going to stick to going with bio.
The depot placement was great if you planned on getting a faster expansion - as then the depots are tucked away between your two CC's and hard to harass, but they were exposed since you didn't have your natural expansion, risking a supply block. You can do one of two things to fix this: either expand more aggressively so they aren't exposed like that, or put them in a different position.
I think your major two issues that game were: 1 ) macro slips that let your opponent catch up / pull ahead, which is something you always want to work on, but considering your opponent was of similar-skill and had his own bumps in macro I think you still could have won if you made some different decisions.
Which leads me to number 2...
2 ) leaving your army in your base after killing all those marines. If you had taken the low ground and expanded you could have chosen to play defensively with faster tanks by delaying your medivacs, put a tank and a turret on your high ground to keep his tanks from leapfrogging in to your natural, taken an economic advantage with your second base, then started dropping off 2 base to force him back. Or you could have played offensively by macroing up a larger ball with additional rax, destroy his tanks before their counts got unmanageable.
Good luck in future games!
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Wren.822 and Khazidhea.
Thank you so much for your time and your replies. I'm going to go play now with that in mind. I'm sure my TVP will be stronger. I found a build that I like way more (1Rax FE), but I do not intend on implenting it until I can perfect this build and get at least a 60% win rate with it until I am out of gold (I'm in bronze now)
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