On January 10 2012 19:28 houstil wrote: At what exact timing the stim attack is supposed to hit ? Is it around 10:00 ?
I usually use the Seth 6 roach pressure build into taking a quick third (with a pair of ling to deny your scv scout). I think that it would perform very well against this build. Roaches might delay your push a little bit and should deny any hellion harass. Then the 10 min timing should be defendable with roach-ling-bane on creep (no lair tech). The compo does delay the lair but it's really robust and not that costly (at that time my third is already half saturated so I can afford those units without being behind eco-wise). Although you don't have to engage if you see enough units and can always fall back to macro on your quick third and transition into heavy dropship harass to punish the late tech. It should still give zerg a slight eco lead but it might be hard to defend against mutlipronged attack before the muta transition. I would like to test it, PM me if anyone is intrested.
I wouldn't recommend roach much against reactor hellion openings these days. Roaches are good if T continues hellion production but that's not happening often anymore since blue flame got nerfed, mech play is also not common anymore which is basically the only situation where lategame roach is good. Roach pressure also just sucks on bigger maps, as it takes way too long to reach the terran. Whatever followup terran had in mind it's easy to react to roach and most of the times those roaches are a waste of money: - they plan on getting quick stim thus have techlab on the rax => make a few marauders and your roaches became bad - they followup with banshee => your roaches suck now - they want to quick siege tanks after a few hellions thus they make a techlab on rax and prepare for swap => if they see your roaches moving out they can make marauders and/or tanks already.
I would only ever go roachpressure in ZvT now if you know for sure terran is massing up hellions (at least 8 and/or blueflame) and the map is small enough to surprise terran. A few defensive roaches can be ok to allow you to move your creep out more aggresively but I think a simcity with evo, spines and queens is preferrable. Just go quick muta / quick infestors instead to clear the hellions imo.
It's hard to argue without any replay but I can tell you that TvZ is currently my best match up using roaches upon scouting one gaz openings from terran. Even if the T makes only 4 hellions, making 6 roaches are never useless in my games. You will always get a few scv kills poking at his front. The terran really need a Maraudeur in a bunker to not take any damage (and if the bunker is at the nat a runby will often do damage). Plus roach pressure gives guaranteed scouting (if it's a tank you can assume standard marine-tank push opening, maraudeurs are a hint for a early hellion-bio pressure, he will need to show any banshee to defend and evo-queens will be ready soon enough at home). Then roaches give map control back against hellions and it allow a quick third that can be defended by a good creep spread (I use only one queen injecting, the second one keeps spreading towards the third and in front of my nat). Finally in the mid game, speed roach-speed ling-speed bane is a really underestimated composition that allow the zerg to charge in and punish an over-extended Terran really well. Roaches are far from useless against tank and there 'survability' can lead into a snowball effect really quicly. From there a muta transition (with the spire hidden at the third) is often unexpected and allow to deny heavy drop play that is a weakness of this compo.
With the metagame trend of Terran taking an earlier third and trying to out macro the zerg (see the bomber build) using hellions to deny any third, I think that roaches are a descent answer. With an earlier third I can easily be max on roach-ling-bane by the 14 min mark with +1/+1 upgrades if the Terran don't harass beside the initial hellions.
@ houstil, making roaches in response to seeing the gas is a pretty good move especially on smaller maps but I wouldn't really do it in any other scenario. If you respond to seeing the factory or even worse already the hellions with roaches they will simply be too late to do any damage, he can easily have a marauder/tank/banshee out by the time your roaches get there and you won't get a scv kill then. Making roaches isn't bad per se but I just think there is a relatively small window of oppurtunity for them to be good, if you get them reactively and thus quite late I think you're simply better off waiting for muta or just enough speedlings.
Investing into roach speed and continue making them is almost always a mistake if you're up against bio imo, you're wasting stuff on roach upgrades then which could simply be spent on more upgrades for your lings. I rather have +1/+1 lings then a mix of +0+1 ling/roach for example. Upgrades are really quite important in this matchup and being forced to get more when using roach can be quite detrimental.
@ Markwerf Thanks for the reply. Indeed I don't make roaches after seeing hellions but in a thought-out build order. My first pair of lings deny any scv scout and confirm the factory opening if possible, the roach warren at 26 supply is done when my first inject pop, the roaches are done when the first 2 hellions should arrive at my base. On a larger map (TDA or Antiga xp) I usually do a few defensive roaches or standard 2 base sim-city into mutas). So the roach pressure usually arrive in time just before the bunker finishes and at least 30sec before the first banshee or tank pops.
Then I think that you are underestimating roaches against standard marine-tank-medivac. They are really good because they tank so well and they allow the banes to connect on the Terran army. With roaches it become possible to charge into a sieged up terran and ensure a certain degree of cost effectiveness. And catching an unsieged terran is the synonym of gg. Counter attacks also become stronger because you don't need to explode banelings on the natural wall. One last thing is that building roaches and morhping banes allow the zerg to allocate resources into an army really quickly, thus building drone until the very last moment.
But because of their supply ineffectiveness, roaches-ling-bane isn't a good mid to late game composition. So I don't invest into range upgrade but I get +1 armor as my first upgrade (usually before lair) which benefits every ground units. Then I get only melee upgrades from 2 evos. I usually transition into infesters with burrow and then broods or mutas into standard MLB on a big map if Terran overuse drops.
Houstil I'd be more than happy to play you on NA using this build. (I do not have EU acc). As you sort of mentioned, yes the push is stoppable but it can be pretty difficult to stop and not be behind in eco/ tech IMO, and at the same time terran isn't forced to commit if you do over commit to stopping it since you will lack muta and he will have dropship. At any rate while the timing is very good I still mostly like this build for it's good late game transition while sort of by default denying fast muta. Jjakji didn't kill sen outright with push but just denied his third and even after one bad engagement where he lost a lot of his army he was too ahead and just outmacrod sen.
On January 17 2012 06:56 LiLSighKoh wrote: Your macro during those engagements, was just ..... lol, but I get the BO which is all that matters. Thanks !
Yeah I already mentioned that right next to replay, not the cleanest game. Thanks for saying it again and then laughing at me though . I'm glad the BO helped you.
I noticed this was requested before but I still don't see it. Is there anyone who has written out this build order in its simplest form? If so could you be so kind to link me or perhaps write it out in this thread? Thanks. I attempted to write it out myself but I don't believe I'm doing it right.
@nibbler89 - I'd like to respectfully disagree with your comments about handling the roach/ling/baneling timings, because while mules are great, I don't think they make the biggest difference in this scenario. Zerg can transition quite well out of the 8:40 roach/ling/bane timing that drg and violet use, and if you're moving up into your main and bunkering there after 8minutes you're going to be behind regardless - you have to defend your expansion, and it's difficult to defend while maintaining equal economic standing.
If zerg is going for an earlier timing like the 7:15 Roach/ling, though, you might have a better chance with moving up into the main and building bunkers behind your depot - as long as you don't lose too many SCVs, you can end up ahead.
if Zerg took a fast 3rd, this is a really wonderful build and very fun to play. I often just win straight up with the push (it tends to also hit right before baneling speed is done as stated so the marines are immensely powerful).
Even if you don't manage to win off the bat, you almost always take out the third base which gives you a great advantage to go into the late game.
But, if the zerg goes for more of a late third heavy ling / early infestor (stephano stlye) shuts this down. One thing I am really struggling with now, since the Ghost nerf, is late game mass infestors. Sometimes you will meet that guy who just makes nothing but infestor ling while rushing to ultras, and I am yet to make this build work against that strategy as tanks come very late, you just get overwhelmed as you plant your third.