Latest updates 4/15/12- 1g sg replay pack 3/??/12 - additional Assumptions; some adjustments to language 1/19/12- Assumptions
If you follow this guide and practice the build(s), you will NEVER lose to 4gate on maps with a ramp ever again.
Consider 4gate an artifact, some random build you see on TDA and Bel'shir, but never anywhere else.
While 4gate was already on its way out thanks to nerfs and builds that can better handle it, the spreading of the information here should solidify its extinction for those who read it.
Assumptions For the sake of clarity, I am making several assumptions: + Show Spoiler +
§. The most important assumption at all. We will assume a very tightly executed 4gate off of a 12 gate. This means:
Note that you will have your 1st force field ready regardless. This also implies that you really need the reactionary 4th chronoboost on WG as noted in each build to guarantee that your 2nd forcefield will be ready in time for the second warp-in, and to guarantee subsequent timely force fields as well. + Show Spoiler +
I did not think that I had to include this in the original OP, but a small group of people are taking this for granted and coloring me a Jobber.
You should be able to delay these timings slightly, as you will have 1z2s vs. your opponent's 1z1s1probe on the approach. Use your units to zone the approach and then snipe the probe in an attempt to stall the pylons from starting and begin focusing them down as early as possible. Don't chase his stalker or his probe with your zealot; put him on one of the pylons if you've killed the zealot already. This will also test your opponent's multitasking as he tries to make a good approach while hitting all of his chronoboosts. A good player will still be able to nearly hit these timings regardless, however.
1. You deny an above-ramp pylon. This should be easy for you as you get out 2 stalkers before he can get a second stalker to your ramp. Ignore his units and focus down that probe. There is no excuse for letting a probe up your ramp. If he completes a pylon above your ramp and uses it to warp in, you are dead. Pull probes to kill it, but just know this will hurt you considerably when you're trying to establish your infrastructure. This guide will assume that your opponent was able to start 2 pylons below your ramp. No further discussion.
2a. You scout on 2nd pylon at the EARLIEST. You don't have to account for 1 gas builds vs. 2 gas builds as part of your scouting goals, as both 1 gas builds can be held blindly (outside of 11gate-3gate.. still need to do more testing there). Thus, an early scout is not necessary and will only tack on seconds to your core/stalker/sentry etc. timings.
I tend to scout when I get my 2nd gas or my core. Your opponent will most likely have a stalker out by the time you reach his base, so you need to be very careful with this probe. Really, all this probe needs to do is stay alive long enough to figure out where your opponent spawned and perhaps, later, if he took a greedy expansion.
2b. If you want to do this build on a map where you must gateway scout to check for proxy gates, such as Shakuras Plateau, Arid Plateau, and Xel'Naga Caverns, your timings will be just slightly delayed. I cannot guarantee that you will get your 2nd and 3rd forcefields ready in time to hold a 4gate, but I'm not convinced that doing so is absolutely impossible. On Shakuras, you are aided by the ramp at the natural so you shouldn't have a problem shutting the rush down on the approach with the vision/zoning advantage you have.
3a. You have good enough mechanics to get your 1st sentry out by 5:25, following the builds below. You need to begin chaining forcefields the instant he could have warpgate tech and he tries to come up your ramp for the first time.
An extremely tight 4gate will begin it's first warp in cycle a hair before 5:35, so you obviously need your sentry out by then or you just lose. Any extra seconds you can shave down from 5:35 on your 1st sentry timing is just gravy for a more timely 2nd ff from the same sentry instead of having to warp in an additional one. Refer to this thread for guidelines on how to delay the 1z1s1probe approach: this thread, specifically this passage: + Show Spoiler +
This is the formation you want:
This is not what you want:
In the first screen capture, the stalkers are at the very lip of the ramp so that they are out of sight and can shoot the probe asap. In the 2nd one, they might have to move after you see the probe in order to start. bad! You might even consider having both stalkers closer to the inside corner of the ramp, still on the lip but hugging the wall where the probe will most likely try to mineral walk through.
Here comes the approach:
this game I didn't scout so I waste a few shots on the stalker before targeting the probe. As you'll see, this is fine even if he gets up 2 pylons below the ramp.
Kill the probe, and then kill the stalker. This shouldn't be a problem with any kind of reasonable correct micro:
After you kill the stalker for free, kill the zealot while retreating up your ramp. Your sentry should be done now. You want to kill the zealot before his pylons + WG is done to prevent an above-ramp warp-in or you're dead.
You want to delay his first warp-in as long as possible and pick off that probe the instant you see it. While that guide focuses on maps where you can easily zone the approach through a very small area, I'm confident this build can work on all maps with a ramp, so long as you: :1. leave supply for the 2nd sentry and alot gas + supply for sentries #3 and #4 and warp them in if absolutely necessary to maintain the FF chain.
2. use a late, reactive 4th chronoboost on WG so that none of it is wasted the second you see pylons going down by your ramp, followed by CB on your first warpgate to get the second sentry out a few seconds faster.
3. and always make sure your 4th pylon gets down in time. All the while you need to delay the approach as well as you can with your 1z2s and snipe the probe at all costs.
3b. Mechanics here also includes probe stacking. You need as many minerals as you can possibly get your hands on early on to get your zealot on 17 without a probe cut + Show Spoiler +
*your zealot, 2 stalkers, and your first sentry will all be chained; the faster you start this chain the better; getting your 3rd pylon down on time will ensure your 2nd stalker doesn't get supply blocked, as well*
, your 2nd gas on 20 without a probe cut, and a well-timed cybernetics core (2:40 will suffice), so start practicing!
4. Each build diverges some time after the 5 minute mark. If there are at least 2 pylons warping in below your ramp, you shall take the route titled "If you're being aggressively 4gated.." In most cases this means you prolong your 26 probe cut until your 4th pylon is done, you CB your WG a 4th and final time, and you warp in exactly ONE more sentry. If the 4 gate aggression is indeed real and you expend your 2nd forcefield, you continue warping in sentries. If the aggression was a ruse, don't make any more sentries and continue along your merry way. This should not affect your tech whatsoever (penix maybe), outside of a single chronoboost gone to WG instead of blink or your immortal or your phoenix.
In the build sections, unless I explicitly say so, º¿º heretofore means that you see that the 4gate is coming-- 2 pylons at the bottom of your ramp.
5. As all of these are 12 gate builds, you will use your first and only 2 nexus chrono boosts on 11 food, and 13 food after you lay down your gateway and start the 13th probe. This shouldn't be news to anyone.
6. The "follow up" sections refer to the next step if your opponent did not 4gate you. If your opponent 4gated you, the follow up is to just go kill him + Show Spoiler +
once your blink is done if you went twilight, for instance
This build is extremely tight. Your goal is to be able to chain force-field the ramp from the second your opponent has the ability to warp in on the high ground (finished pylon + vision + wg cool downs ready) to the time you can actually engage his army straight up.
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 Twilight Council 30 Sentry 32 (2nd) Gateway (Cut probes at 32 food: 24 probes; 1 zealot; 2 stalkers; 1 sentry) 32 Pylon 32 Blink Research (DON'T CB YET)
This will bring you to a few ticks after the 5 minute mark. The build diverges here. If you're getting aggressively 4gated...
(32) 4th cb on WG Upon the completion of your 4th pylon, resume probe production. Here's why: + Show Spoiler +
You don't want to be at 33/34 when your wg is up and you need that sentry out. Continue the probe cut until this finishes and you can safely warp in your 2nd sentry if you're being 4gated to chain the forcefield
33 (3rd) Gateway 33 (2nd) Sentry This should be out in time to chain ff with the first one; You should have exactly 100 gas when the WG cooldown is ready with metalopolis's shitty geysers. So you shouldn't have any trouble with this one.
You should have taken out the 2 pylons at the base of the ramp by now, as you should be ignoring his units and focusing down only the pylons, 1 at a time. But the units are still alive and will kill you if they make it up the ramp (6 stalkers, 5 zealots). You will also die if you drop your FF chain for just a fraction of a second, or if you miss it by a hex and allow your opponent to get a warp in above the ramp.
CB your 1st warpgate once you reach 25 energy; This will happen at exactly 5:58
Your 3rd sentry from your 1st WG will be out just in time to chain with the 2nd forcefield Get a 4th sentry if your opponent is still humping the ff at the bottom of the ramp. Once this sentry is out, the 4gate is officially over and you can devote the rest of your CB to blink until it's finished. I recommend adding a 4th gate, but go ahead and grab a robo if you want to be REALLY safe. Leave your base when blink is about done and go kill your opponent
If there's no pylons warping in at the base of your ramp at this point, or you've collected other information you're not getting 4gated.
(32) Resume probe production (33) Begin chronoboosting Blink Research 33 (3rd) Gateway
If delayed 4 gate comes--as in he didn't warp in under your ramp--ff with the one sentry you already have and warp in as many as you need to chain ff until you have enough units to fight his units (you should have blink if you want to try to fight this army). Until then, keep warping in sentries. Mind the energy on your first sentry. Don't waste gas on an additional sentry if you can afford a second forcefield from this sentry.
You don't NEED additional units to defend anything that comes your way immediately, so let your 3 WG cool downs hang out for now. Get a stalker or 2 nonetheless, because you need to account for WP 4gate. Just make sure you retain at least 1 WG cool down and nearly 100 gas in case of a delayed 4 gate
Right now, the only danger is a warp prism 4gate. You only need a sentry at the ramp at this point, so feel free to move your stalkers and zealot to the edge of your base. Check all of the spots where your opponent would use a pylon to warp up while maintaining the best possible edge scouting to spot a WP.
If it is in fact a WP 4gate, they will hit with 8 units initially. You should have 4 to 5 stalkers, a zealot and a sentry by the time it hits. If you see a WP, cancel your robo if you had started one and warp in stalkers. Blink will be done by the time you have to micro against the WP 4gate. I recommend pulling ~15 probes to surround the stalkers and attack once his units are near your nexus/probe line. Don't a-move them or they might wind up attacking zealots. Do not want.
The WP 4gate will have a mix of zealots and stalkers. Focus down the stalkers with your better blink stalkers and deal with the zealots by and by. Don't let the zealots kill your probes. Run them temporarily if you have to.
Now that we have accounted for WP 4gate, we have to consider dts. A super quick dt rush (2nd gas on 18, 1 stalker 1 sentry in terms of gas usage.. very risky build so will serve as a good benchmark for safety) shouldn't get to your ramp until ~7:20 at the very earliest. If you get your robo after getting up to 1 zealot; 4 stalkers; 1 sentry, you can have your observer done a bit before the 8 minute mark. At this point, you can rule out a Warp prism rush as he will have more than 4 units + 4 WG cool downs, so it doesn't make sense for him to attack. Feel free to move down the ramp and claim your map control with your very quick blink. I tend to move out before my observer has finished, as I think that exploiting the window where your blink is very strong is much more beneficial that being 100% safe against a dt rush. If it is in fact a dt build, go home and take care of it, obviously!
From here, it's all up to you. You can expand if you scout blink/robo play, or add a 4th gate and try to all-in if you see an expansion.
Against phoenix play, I've had relative success taking my natural immediately and--provided I see no expansion and that they have cut probes-- get up 4-5 cannons in the natural (not in front of the nexus, but on the sides and in the minerals; they are on zealot duty) and grab ht tech for archons. If they turn it into a one base, it will usually be immortal and zealot heavy. Put a gate or 2 in the natural to deny zealots surface area of the nexus and your stalkers and get an archon out asap. You probably won't have the archon when the push comes, but it should be ready before the immortals can do too much work on your buildings. Make sure you are pumping units out on 5-6 gates by the time the all-in is ramping up.
Alternatively, get ht tech for archons (unless you have 100% established lack of robo) or consider going dt for an insta-win, or for archons if he does pop out an obs in the meantime, but get essentially the same unit composition off 1 base if you want to be safer.
Playing this out against 1 base colossus is hard if your opponent plays safely. Try to delay his doom push as long as you can by bouncing in and out of his base with your blink stalkers while moving towards [chargelot/archon off 1 base] or [your own colossus tech with or without an expansion].
This build is a little bit looser, and will get your 3rd sentry much quicker than the 1 gate opener. Your blink will be slightly slower, a small price to pay for safety if you can't get the 3rd sentry out in time with the 1 gate opener
If you're being aggressively 4gated
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 (2nd) Gateway 30 Sentry 32 Twilight Council 32 Pylon
º¿º
(32) 4th CB on WG tech 33 (3rd) Gateway 34 (2nd) Sentry 37 (3rd) Sentry Start a pylon and then blink@150 gas.
If you're not being aggressively 4gated
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 (2nd) Gateway 30 Sentry 32 (2nd) Gateway (Cut probes at 32 food) 32 Pylon 32 Twilight Council (Resume probe production) 33 (3rd) Gateway 35 Blink Research
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 Robotics Facility 30 Sentry 32 (2nd) Gateway (Cut probes at 32 food) 32 Pylon
º¿º
(32) 4th chronoboost on WG tech 32 (3rd) Gateway 32 Immortal; no chronoboost 36 (2nd) Sentry; resume probe production @100% 2nd Gateway, chronoboost it while transforming it and warp in your 3rd sentry.
Your 4th sentry will come from your 1st wg on time if you need it
If you're not being aggressively 4gated
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 Robotics Facility 30 Sentry 32 (2nd) Gateway (Cut probes at 32 food) 32 Pylon 32 (3rd) Gateway 32 Immortal; chronoboost
Follow up
From here, you can do pretty much anything. You can add a few units and feasibly expand against blink/robo or blink only builds on shakuras, antigua or entombed. If you want to punish a greedy expansion, you can tack on a 4th gate and go up to a colossus or 2 and stream in zealots. Just don't get range, as it will only slow your push down for an upgrade that's not so great off of one base. 1 base immortal pushes can work against greedy expansions, but you're better off teching up to colossus before doing anything like that.
Because of the immortal buff, it will be significantly harder for a blinking/expanding player to kite your push around the map. With good scouting and army positioning, blink-ins should not be too large of a threat
You can, alternatively, get your own blink and go into robo/blink play if that is your style of choice.
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 (2nd) Gateway 30 Sentry 32 (2nd) Gateway (Cut probes at 32 food) 32 Robotics Facility (Resume probe production, cut for faster immortal; don't cb until you see you won't need to cb a GW) 32 Pylon
º¿º
(32) 4th CB on WG tech 33 (3rd) Gateway 33 (2nd) Sentry 35 (3rd) Sentry 37 Immortal (No CB)
This build is absolutely brilliant if you are not aggressively 4gated. If you are aggressively 4gated, it's kind of meh. You can't start your first penix until you get your 1st 3 or 4 sentries which is a total drag. Oh well; it's the price we pay for being too cool for ground unitz
If you're being aggressively 4gated
With efficient play, you can actually start your 1st phoenix before your 3rd sentry and still be safe!
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 Stargate 30 Sentry 32 (2nd) Gateway (Cut probes at 32 food) 32 Pylon; resume probe production upon completion 32 (3rd) Gateway
º¿º
(32) 4th CB on WG reasearch 34 (2nd) Sentry 36 Start 1st phoenix; cancel if you need the 100 gas. @100% 2nd Gateway, CB as you transform it to warpgate, and make (3rd) Sentry (39 food) 39 Zealot (Sentry if you will absolutely need an FF)
Once you have 3 sentries, a phoenix, 2 stalkers, 2 zealots and 3 warpgates, your opponent should have had 6 stalkers and 5 zealots for ~10 seconds. 4 gaters tend to back off once their pylons go down and they've humped the shit out of 3 chained forcefields, but not always. While your 1st phoenix is training, you need to make an important executive decision. Will you need that 4th force field before you can get enough gas with the 100 gas sunk into the phoenix? If you think so, cancel the phoenix and get the 4th sentry. If not, let the phoenix finish and get the sentry with your next 100 gas if you need to do so.
Yes. I know 4 sentries is a lot before you start your first phoenix. TBH, you're not going to run into many 100% perfect 4gates that establish themselves at your ramp ready for a warp-in at the target time of 5:34, so you probably will almost never have to make 4. I just have the numbers "4" and "5:34" here because I'm crash testing it against a near theoretically perfect 12gate 4gate. Wait why are you complaining? You can't get fast tech units while skimping almost entirely on defense against a brutish all-in. What do you think you are, terran?
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 Stargate 30 Sentry 32 (2nd) Gateway (Cut probes at 32 food) 32 Pylon (resume probes production upon completion 33 (3rd gateway optional)
Follow up
If you get to your phoenixes off of 1 sentry, you are in great shape. You don't necessarily need the 3rd gate, but it can help in a pinch against a WP 4gate. I like to send my first phoenixes to the edges of my base and bee line them to my opponents base to check if a WP is en route. If he gets to your base and begins to warp in, engage with your GW units while lifting up the zealots 1 at a time with your phoenixes. Might as well pull probes, as if his attack fails he cannot retreat with anything whatsoever.
To be safe from dt builds, go ahead and start your robo after your 3rd phoenix.
Assuming no wp/dt rush came, you have a few options now.
You can expand off of your phoenixes, perhaps denying an observer scout with phoenix observer combination while keeping them pinned with the phoenixes, threatening to pick off gas probes on a flyby. Be careful here; you don't want to waste all of your phoenix energy on probes only to get all inned, unable to lift a significant amount of units. Pheonix are a wonderful part of a protoss composition; what are all ground units bad against in a scuffle? colossus (ok speed prism immortal hipsters let's not get all riled up). And nothing deters or even shuts down colossus play like an early phoenix build. This means he will either favor stalkers or immortals with his gas in the early-mid game, both of which can be dealt with a a phoenix composition with immortals and zealots sprinkled in. Phoenix play tend to instigate zealot/archon pushes, but these are not very strong with proper simcity even if you take an expansion.
On the other hand, you can turn this into the sickest pvp all-in of all time. You can either hit relatively quickly, adding on a 4th gate and sniping sentries up a ramp with your phoenix as your zealots stroll right on up. Or, against a late expansion which you sometimes see in a pvp where both are reluctant to drop the nexus, you can can get up to 3 or 4 immortals, a mess of zealots, hell even an archon or two to prevent ff's from blocking your zealots. Your immortals will deal with the simcity and any cannons they might have erected. This all-in comes pretty late, as you can probably tell.
This build has more room for error against aggressive 4gate, but obviously does not exploit non 4gate play as hard as the 1 gate build
If you're being aggressively 4gated
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 (2nd) Gateway 30 Sentry
º¿º
(32) 4th CB on WG research 32 Pylon (earlier than usual; resume probe production more quickly, and you are not sure if you can alot so much gas to phoenixes right away so why not get the pylon first? Works either way.. not much of a difference, really) 32 Stargate 33 (3rd) Gateway 35 (2nd) Sentry
**You have an extra WG cool down here. You can choose to get another sentry immediately to be 100% safe, or try to risk it by going sentry/zealot to start your phoenix production earlier. This will come down to the timing of your opponent's 4gate and the efficiency of his approach. Do you need that 3rd sentry right away? If so, get it. If you are completely sure you do not, warp in 1 sentry and 1 other unit (preferably a zealot to conserve gas) at this point and get your 4th sentry on the next round of cool downs if need be.
Phoenix builds don't have the punishing power that blink builds do against failed 4gates, but you still should have no trouble winning the game from here.
If you're not being aggressively 4gated You have a lot more flexibility with this opener. It's pretty goddam safe if I do say so myself 9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 (2nd) Gateway 30 Sentry 32 Stargate 32 Pylon 32 (Optional 3rd Gate) 35 Phoenix
I feel like this has many implications for PvP. Currently, most are under the impression that a 3stalker rush is the most efficient, sure-fire way to hold off a 4gate. I have several qualms with the 3stalker rush. I feel very much constricted. Regardless of whether or not you need the stalkers for defense, you will end up with a 2nd gate on 19 and most likely a probe cut here and there. While still being safe, these one gate openers allow you to put those minerals to better use--
You can apply pressure with your quick 1z2s against greedy builds if your opponent perceives your relatively fast 2nd gas as a sign of early passivity;
You get your desired tech structure much more quickly allowing you to obtain map control (twlight or stargate), scouting (stargate or robo) or even secure an expansion on maps that allow it (robo);
You don't tack on additional gates until you actually have use for them.
On February 07 2012 17:37 NrGmonk wrote: Here's another vod of StartaleParting doing this build: http://fr.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/306767555?t=104m34s What I like most about this game is that Parting recognized his opponent's 2 gate pressure and didn't get a 2nd sentry in response.
gas stolen do stupid shit win not sure what to take away from this one... put 2 cannons in your min line if you see late dt shrine or put a damn pylon on the left edge of your base..?
2g robo vs 1g star phoenix expand! can't begin to tell you how important cannons and 1 archon are here. and make damn sure you are 100% checking for expansion
http://drop.sc/91195 1g sg vs 1g robo - robo blink on maps where you're forced to scout earlier (ie 12), don't be afraid to use the information you get and be a little more greedy. here, he cb'd his nexus a third time so i felt fine moving out without worrying about a probe sneaking behind the front lines. then, i see a sentry so i feel free to cut mine, and cut my 3rd gate as well.
2nd and 3rd sentries finish ~5:50. Consider holding off on the 3rd sentry until you start blink.
I'm opening this one up to you guys. If you think your 4gate is good, shoot me a pm and I'd be happy to stamp it out with this build :D And your replays will go right here! Also if you have the the 11gate into 3 gate pressure build down pretty well, I'd like to run this against that a bunch of times as well.
I must say, the 1 gate opener was inspired by a game I watched nani play against HuK at an mlg. He did something similar to the 1 gate - twilight build above. Knowing nani is a master of builds and an extremely smart and safe player, I was puzzled. He has 1 gateway worth of gw units (only one of which he chronoboosted) and has a bunch of cb left over and hasn't acquired any scouting information, meanwhile cutting probes and sitting pretty at 32/34. The more I watched it though, the more i realized nani is a damn genius. he could react to a 4gate and hold it with 2 clicks of a mouse without even scouting it, while teching off of one gateway! retarded. anyway, thx nani for the inspiration
On January 11 2012 01:30 Skyro wrote: Am I missing something or is there some subtlety in the build that lets you defend/sniff out proxy gates and cannon rushes w/o scouting?
as noted, if you spawn on a map where you'd need to scout for proxies before 15 food, either use a more flexible build that can scout earlier or scout for proxies on 12 then return to mining
4 gate is indeed easy to hold off now but always building a sentry and using that many boosts on wg / gateway units can be detrimental. For example the gate-robo-gate you provide uses 4 boosts on wg and 1 on units which means you won't have any for the robo when it finishes meaning a later obs and immortal, that can be quite important if you want to stop blink aggresion with a robo build for example. There are also many builds that either don't want the zealot or the sentry. When i play robo-blink I don't want the zealot for example (I tend to go 3 stalker rush then) because the zealot doesn't really help me when I try to blink in their base. The sentry at least is useful for stopping dt's and doing tricks like keeping them locked in their base while you kill their expand or vice versa. Likewise I don't want a sentry when I go pure robo play. It's very weak against the biggest flaw of robo play: phoenix. I just go zealot-stalker-stalker-stalker with robo because the sentry is a liability with almost any followup for robo play.
What I'm trying to say here is that it's great to be '4-gate proof' but going too far with it can definately cost you in a tech vs tech race. I know your builds won't commit to too many wasted chrono's or sentries etc. when it's not needed but some are still not optimal when you already know the opponent is not 4 gating imo. I guess your reasoning for supersafe builds will be that anything it costs you is made up for by scouting later. I don't agree with the cybercore scouting though as I think it's just too risky, you really want to find out earlier about some builds. Scouting at cyber has a serious risk of not getting in their base on 4p maps or not finding a proxy on time on a 2p map. For example if you find a proxy 2 gate around 18 pop on xel naga which is really close to your base you're imo too late to respond correctly. 10 gate with super fast warpgate on a 4p map can also be detrimental if you scout it late. Finally getting gas stolen while your probe is nowhere close to their base yet (so you can't gas steal back) can also be quite hurtful. All these scenario's are unlikely but CAN happen with core scout, they simply don't or at least MUCH less with gate scout.
Overall it's just more efficient to scout a bit earlier and adapt to seeing a 4 gate or not imo then to scout later and play supersafe regardless of what they do. The scouting at core instead of gate only saves you around 40 minerals (1 probeminute worth of mins) which is not worth the less information you have i think. In fact 12 gating instead of 13 gating costs you more minerals on most maps then you save by scouting later..
On January 11 2012 01:43 Markwerf wrote: 4 gate is indeed easy to hold off now but always building a sentry and using that many boosts on wg / gateway units can be detrimental. For example the gate-robo-gate you provide uses 4 boosts on wg and 1 on units which means you won't have any for the robo when it finishes meaning a later obs and immortal, that can be quite important if you want to stop blink aggresion with a robo build for example. There are also many builds that either don't want the zealot or the sentry. When i play robo-blink I don't want the zealot for example (I tend to go 3 stalker rush then) because the zealot doesn't really help me when I try to blink in their base. The sentry at least is useful for stopping dt's and doing tricks like keeping them locked in their base while you kill their expand or vice versa. Likewise I don't want a sentry when I go pure robo play. It's very weak against the biggest flaw of robo play: phoenix. I just go zealot-stalker-stalker-stalker with robo because the sentry is a liability with almost any followup for robo play.
What I'm trying to say here is that it's great to be '4-gate proof' but going too far with it can definately cost you in a tech vs tech race. I know your builds won't commit to too many wasted chrono's or sentries etc. when it's not needed but some are still not optimal when you already know the opponent is not 4 gating imo. I guess your reasoning for supersafe builds will be that anything it costs you is made up for by scouting later. I don't agree with the cybercore scouting though as I think it's just too risky, you really want to find out earlier about some builds. Scouting at cyber has a serious risk of not getting in their base on 4p maps or not finding a proxy on time on a 2p map. For example if you find a proxy 2 gate around 18 pop on xel naga which is really close to your base you're imo too late to respond correctly. 10 gate with super fast warpgate on a 4p map can also be detrimental if you scout it late. Finally getting gas stolen while your probe is nowhere close to their base yet (so you can't gas steal back) can also be quite hurtful. All these scenario's are unlikely but CAN happen with core scout, they simply don't or at least MUCH less with gate scout.
Overall it's just more efficient to scout a bit earlier and adapt to seeing a 4 gate or not imo then to scout later and play supersafe regardless of what they do. The scouting at core instead of gate only saves you around 40 minerals (1 probeminute worth of mins) which is not worth the less information you have i think. In fact 12 gating instead of 13 gating costs you more minerals on most maps then you save by scouting later..
None of the builds get more than a single sentry unless aggression is very real. Also, none of them CB the core more than 3 times unless the aggression is so real that I require additional sentries. Robo builds that don't have a single sentry? I don't think that is safe, even if you go up to 3 gates before you get the robo as a delayed 4gate will clean you out while the sentry is still warping in. Sounds dumb, but I really think you can shell out that flat 100 gas sentry tax for that safety net which will ultimately help later with guardian shield and ff's in bstalker/immortal fights and blocking off a ramp against a greedy expansion or an ill-advised move-out
I suppose you can scout before core. This would just mean the core is a few seconds later, the second gas goes down on 21, the third pylon goes down on 25 instead of 24. I know that with the core scout it's very tight against a perfect 4gate. To see whether or not that 40 minerals actually makes it unsafe involves a whole lot of moving parts and I couldn't feel right about saying it would 100% make the build unsafe. 10 gate builds will certainly hit faster, but I'm not sure what deviations I would make in the 1 gate builds to account for the fast WG timing. Provided I don't scout them last with a 12 scout, I suppose opting for one of the alternative 2 gate builds would be a smart move. There is still much work to be done, it seems.
Nice guide. One small mistake though with FF or the build and the 4 Gate still has a chance sadly. Also, if your opponent fakes a 4 Gate and goes without a Sentry, you are behind as mentioned by Mark. I lost twice to a Korean who opened 2 Gate straight into Colossus simply because he had more gas units (he only built a single Stalker until his Colossus were paid for) when I opened Sentry first. He would have died easily to a 4 Gate though.
If you run out of ideas for another guide, please make one explaining how to stop a cannon rush on Metalopolis effectively. I've tested so many things and still have not been able to figure it out.
On January 11 2012 01:59 BronzeKnee wrote: Nice guide. One small mistake though with FF or the build and the 4 Gate still has a chance sadly. Also, if your opponent fakes a 4 Gate and goes without a Sentry, you are behind.
If you run out of ideas for another guide, please make one explaining how to stop a cannon rush on Metalopolis effectively. I've tested so many things and still have not been able to figure it out.
Since at that point I'm already working on my first tech structure, I'm fine with him throwing away 150 mins in canceled pylons as well as a zealot to try to fake me out to get 100 gas up on me... 100 gas that I don't mind spending at all!
I'll add a bit to the OP about discerning when you ought to react.. Really the only way I'm getting that first extra sentry out is if they start 2 pylons but I'm not sure if that's 100% clearly reflected in the OP.
If you run out of ideas for another guide, please make one explaining how to stop a cannon rush on Metalopolis effectively. I've tested so many things and still have not been able to figure it out.
Well I think robo without sentry is quite safe if you scout them to go quick 2 gas and not chronoing the warpgate tech. Immortal + zealot/stalker slightly beats zealot/stalker imo if you're the defending player. You still have a slight defensive advantage from the ramp even if you're not having a sentry because you get the first shot, range 6 immortals are also just really easy to focus on stalkers.
If you want to change the builds to have an earlier scout can't you just go gate at 13? 12 gate or 13 gate is only a 5sec difference really and 13 gate tends to line up nicer with making your cyber if you chrono your nex 3 times. I guess it's possible your builds don't work anymore because of that 5 seconds but if thats the case then your builds are extremely tight. I don't know if it's adviseable to suggest to players on this forum a build relying on sentries that is so tight that missing a few seconds can make you lose. For a new player that can't execute a build flawless I wouldn't advise these builds then as losing against 4 gates because you slightly miss the FF or are slightly late with your sentry is very annoying.
On January 11 2012 01:59 BronzeKnee wrote: Nice guide. One small mistake though with FF or the build and the 4 Gate still has a chance sadly. Also, if your opponent fakes a 4 Gate and goes without a Sentry, you are behind.
If you run out of ideas for another guide, please make one explaining how to stop a cannon rush on Metalopolis effectively. I've tested so many things and still have not been able to figure it out.
Since at that point I'm already working on my first tech structure, I'm fine with him throwing away 150 mins in canceled pylons as well as a zealot to try to fake me out to get 100 gas up on me... 100 gas that I don't mind spending at all!
I'll add a bit to the OP about discerning when you ought to react.. Really the only way I'm getting that first extra sentry out is if they start 2 pylons but I'm not sure if that's 100% clearly reflected in the OP.
The Sentry needs to be out before the Pylons are going up, if not the Probe (or Probes if you are a baller like me) can run up the ramp and plant down pylons on the high ground and the only thing left for you to do is type gg. This is assuming, as you did in the OP, that you aren't opening 3 Stalker or whatever in an attempt to pick off the Probe(s) before they reach your ramp.
I don't see how 2 Stalkers could pick off 2 Probes coming up a ramp to build pylons, and even if they did, you have a Zealot and Stalker in your base too (who probably did a lot of damage to your Stalkers), and if your opponent micros them correctly, once the low ground pylons finish, he can use them for vision.
If you run out of ideas for another guide, please make one explaining how to stop a cannon rush on Metalopolis effectively. I've tested so many things and still have not been able to figure it out.
I'm actually working on this as we speak ^
Between this and your 3 rax guide, I have just one thing to say to you:
On January 11 2012 02:07 qwertzi wrote: am I missing something, why do you build the second gate twice? once at 29 and again at 32?
the 2 gate builds get the 2nd gate on 29, tech structure on 32 and 3rd gate on 32. 1 gate builds will get tech structure on 29, gates (2) and (3) and 32 edit: oh i saw what you were talking about and fixed it. thank you!
On January 11 2012 02:07 qwertzi wrote: am I missing something, why do you build the second gate twice? once at 29 and again at 32?
the 2 gate builds get the 2nd gate on 29, tech structure on 32 and 3rd gate on 32. 1 gate builds will get tech structure on 29, gates (2) and (3) and 32 edit: oh i saw what you were talking about and fixed it. thank you!
sorry if I was so unspecific ... but thanks for fixing it anyways :D
On January 11 2012 02:04 Markwerf wrote: Well I think robo without sentry is quite safe if you scout them to go quick 2 gas and not chronoing the warpgate tech. Immortal + zealot/stalker slightly beats zealot/stalker imo if you're the defending player. You still have a slight defensive advantage from the ramp even if you're not having a sentry because you get the first shot, range 6 immortals are also just really easy to focus on stalkers.
If you want to change the builds to have an earlier scout can't you just go gate at 13? 12 gate or 13 gate is only a 5sec difference really and 13 gate tends to line up nicer with making your cyber if you chrono your nex 3 times. I guess it's possible your builds don't work anymore because of that 5 seconds but if thats the case then your builds are extremely tight. I don't know if it's adviseable to suggest to players on this forum a build relying on sentries that is so tight that missing a few seconds can make you lose. For a new player that can't execute a build flawless I wouldn't advise these builds then as losing against 4 gates because you slightly miss the FF or are slightly late with your sentry is very annoying.
Yeah, this. For anyone who isn't high-master +, having some sort of cushion is far preferable to the small advantages gained by having such a tight build.
For example, I simply need the comfort of gate scouting - seeing the 2-gate proxy way earlier, and guaranteeing scouting the opponent's base. So while everything in this guide may be excellent, I'm just not gonna do it because of the late scout >.<
4 Gate will always be viable at a Pro level I think... just because getting an advantage is so hard in PvP that most pros will be willing to take a gamble... a gamble that will leave them open to 4 gate.
Hopefully this means less 4 gate on ladder though...
What about losing to an apparent but not-all-in 4gate in the long term via spending too much money on gas for sentries? I'm thinking of cases where your opponent takes the low ground, warps enough stuff in to make it look like he's being all-in aggressive, and techs behind it, forcing you to spend a lot on sentries to keep a constant ff up.
On January 11 2012 03:17 caradoc wrote: What about losing to an apparent but not-all-in 4gate in the long term via spending too much money on gas for sentries? I'm thinking of cases where your opponent takes the low ground, warps enough stuff in to make it look like he's being all-in aggressive, and techs behind it, forcing you to spend a lot on sentries to keep a constant ff up.
Hopefully you're not idle between sentries, but builds units enough to break the part of his army that's outside your base...
On January 11 2012 01:59 BronzeKnee wrote: Nice guide. One small mistake though with FF or the build and the 4 Gate still has a chance sadly. Also, if your opponent fakes a 4 Gate and goes without a Sentry, you are behind as mentioned by Mark. I lost twice to a Korean who opened 2 Gate straight into Colossus simply because he had more gas units (he only built a single Stalker until his Colossus were paid for) when I opened Sentry first. He would have died easily to a 4 Gate though.
If you run out of ideas for another guide, please make one explaining how to stop a cannon rush on Metalopolis effectively. I've tested so many things and still have not been able to figure it out.
The easiest way is to make a wall at your ramp with your first pylon and gateway. Then if you see a cannon rush or proxy gates, you just finish the wall with a second pylon. This can also be good against 4 gate later. The wall can be picked off by stalkers and an observer, though, so you have to be prepared for defending that.
Always bringing the great builds! Your 3-gate aggression build proved very successful, and this one is (so far) looking to be just as good. Much appreciated!
On January 11 2012 04:08 kcdc wrote: Good work. Blink and robo complete. Now optimize for me the thinnest possible stargate opening that's safe against 4 gate. Please?
EGAxlav's phoenix opening is incredibly thin, I've been working on it in some practice games against no one and the timings feel relatively safe. It's similar to both of the builds Alej posted here in the fact it gets a sentry in time for a balls to the wall 4gate (you can start the sentry as early as 5:10 or so if you're optimized and can chrono boost it as well).
RIP 4gate, you will be missed. You offered us certainty for a whole 6:00 minutes, and now look at ya. Interesting post, I like the part about cb usage being able to be used on something other than WG tech.
On January 11 2012 04:08 kcdc wrote: Good work. Blink and robo complete. Now optimize for me the thinnest possible stargate opening that's safe against 4 gate. Please?
It was already done in the PvP Phoenix build, its 2 gates mass sentry, only drop stargate when you see no attack at 6-6:30. You can get 3 gates for an easier hold if you see a "obvious 4 gates".
Thats what I used with my phoenix Build. Axslav 2 gates and I hold it most of the time (miss FF kill you )
On January 11 2012 04:08 kcdc wrote: Good work. Blink and robo complete. Now optimize for me the thinnest possible stargate opening that's safe against 4 gate. Please?
EGAxlav's phoenix opening is incredibly thin, I've been working on it in some practice games against no one and the timings feel relatively safe. It's similar to both of the builds Alej posted here in the fact it gets a sentry in time for a balls to the wall 4gate (you can start the sentry as early as 5:10 or so if you're optimized and can chrono boost it as well).
Yeah, I'm not sure I like that opening. I don't know why it gets 3 stalkers before the sentry when 2 is enough, and I don't really love chronoboosting my gate since speeding resources spent in your gateway slows your extra buildings. I like Alej's 1 gate twilight opening better, and I'll probably try to adapt it to get a stargate instead of a twilight. That is, unless Alej has a perfectly fine-tuned build order for me to just copy.
On January 11 2012 04:08 kcdc wrote: Good work. Blink and robo complete. Now optimize for me the thinnest possible stargate opening that's safe against 4 gate. Please?
yeah it's like done. i had to pass out after i finished the builds this morning haha
On January 11 2012 04:08 kcdc wrote: Good work. Blink and robo complete. Now optimize for me the thinnest possible stargate opening that's safe against 4 gate. Please?
EGAxlav's phoenix opening is incredibly thin, I've been working on it in some practice games against no one and the timings feel relatively safe. It's similar to both of the builds Alej posted here in the fact it gets a sentry in time for a balls to the wall 4gate (you can start the sentry as early as 5:10 or so if you're optimized and can chrono boost it as well).
Yeah, I'm not sure I like that opening. I don't know why it gets 3 stalkers before the sentry when 2 is enough, and I don't really love chronoboosting my gate since speeding resources spent in your gateway slows your extra buildings. I like Alej's 1 gate twilight opening better, and I'll probably try to adapt it to get a stargate instead of a twilight. That is, unless Alej has a perfectly fine-tuned build order for me to just copy.
The thing with stargate openings is that you need to defend with only 2 gates as 3 gate stargate is not optimal compared to 2 gate Stargate. This means that you can't just adapt this 3 gate defense for phoenix play.
On January 11 2012 04:08 kcdc wrote: Good work. Blink and robo complete. Now optimize for me the thinnest possible stargate opening that's safe against 4 gate. Please?
EGAxlav's phoenix opening is incredibly thin, I've been working on it in some practice games against no one and the timings feel relatively safe. It's similar to both of the builds Alej posted here in the fact it gets a sentry in time for a balls to the wall 4gate (you can start the sentry as early as 5:10 or so if you're optimized and can chrono boost it as well).
Yeah, I'm not sure I like that opening. I don't know why it gets 3 stalkers before the sentry when 2 is enough, and I don't really love chronoboosting my gate since speeding resources spent in your gateway slows your extra buildings. I like Alej's 1 gate twilight opening better, and I'll probably try to adapt it to get a stargate instead of a twilight. That is, unless Alej has a perfectly fine-tuned build order for me to just copy.
The thing with stargate openings is that you need to defend with only 2 gates as 3 gate stargate is not optimal compared to 2 gate Stargate. This means that you can't just adapt this 3 gate defense for phoenix play.
Yeah, I'd cut out the 3rd gateway which doesn't seem to be used for 4-gate defense (since it won't be done in time), but rather is used later for stalker aggression. Compared to Axslav's BO, cutting out the third stalker should make it easier to afford the robo while producing phoenixes.
If you run out of ideas for another guide, please make one explaining how to stop a cannon rush on Metalopolis effectively. I've tested so many things and still have not been able to figure it out.
I'm actually working on this as we speak ^
Put your second pylon on the low ground, 1 tile from the wall?
The Sentry needs to be out before the Pylons are going up, if not the Probe (or Probes if you are a baller like me) can run up the ramp and plant down pylons on the high ground and the only thing left for you to do is type gg. This is assuming, as you did in the OP, that you aren't opening 3 Stalker or whatever in an attempt to pick off the Probe(s) before they reach your ramp.
I don't see how 2 Stalkers could pick off 2 Probes coming up a ramp to build pylons, and even if they did, you have a Zealot and Stalker in your base too (who probably did a lot of damage to your Stalkers), and if your opponent micros them correctly, once the low ground pylons finish, he can use them for vision.
You wall in the top of the ramp in the same way that you would with a gateway opening vs zerg. As I do that noobie-pylon-scouting thing, I will always scout my opponent before I make my second pylon. If I scout a standard 12 gateway opening then my second pylon goes at the top of the ramp and my next two buildings complete the wall. Any probe coming up will get hit by the zealot and stalker (even if it comes before the second stalker is out), and wont make it far enough to make a pylon. Two probes would be a problem, but I suppose if you scout it then you just complete the wall.
i touched on defending cannon rushes in the 11 gate build. here is the section:
on metal you want to get the most vision possible with your pylon. with your gate you want to seal off the space between mins and the side of your base so the probe can't zip through for vision/building
this pylon sees the cannon rushes that kill you when you put your pylon farther to the left.
for the 9 oclock spawn, you will probably have to run your probe through there regardless just because there's so much area.
for antigua, you can wall the space between the geyser and the side of your base with a pylon in every position while getting good vision where the cannon rush would come from. however, many people will start the first pylon out of sight of even these pylons, so I recommend scouting with a probe anyway. + Show Spoiler +
hopefully this will hold you over til a more comprehensive one drops ^^
Am I the only person who walks up the ramp immediately with my first Zealot and Stalker when I 4 Gate? This build doesn't seem to have anything to address that.
Being as aggressive as possible with your first Zealot and Stalker (ie. rallied to his base) will force a fight before your opponent's second Stalker is out (on most map distances). If your micro is even half decent and your opponent wasn't watching his ramp at that exact moment, you should be able to win the fight or at least trade evenly. This will allow you to easily get your Probe into his main and build your Pylons, nullifying the fast Sentry.
On January 11 2012 09:12 gdalam wrote: Am I the only person who walks up the ramp immediately with my first Zealot and Stalker when I 4 Gate? This build doesn't seem to have anything to address that.
Being as aggressive as possible with your first Zealot and Stalker (ie. rallied to his base) will force a fight before your opponent's second Stalker is out (on most map distances). If your micro is even half decent and your opponent wasn't watching his ramp at that exact moment, you should be able to win the fight or at least trade evenly. This will allow you to easily get your Probe into his main and build your Pylons, nullifying the fast Sentry.
If the other players gamesense is halfway decent they can pull probes + have the next unit popping out in their own base
On January 11 2012 09:12 gdalam wrote: Am I the only person who walks up the ramp immediately with my first Zealot and Stalker when I 4 Gate? This build doesn't seem to have anything to address that.
Being as aggressive as possible with your first Zealot and Stalker (ie. rallied to his base) will force a fight before your opponent's second Stalker is out (on most map distances). If your micro is even half decent and your opponent wasn't watching his ramp at that exact moment, you should be able to win the fight or at least trade evenly. This will allow you to easily get your Probe into his main and build your Pylons, nullifying the fast Sentry.
If the other players gamesense is halfway decent they can pull probes + have the next unit popping out in their own base
You'll still be able to get your Pylons up with a faster WG timing than your opponent.
This build is absolutely brilliant if you are not aggressively 4gated. If you are aggressively 4gated, it's kind of meh. You can't start your first penix until you get your 1st 4 sentries which is a total drag. Oh well; it's the price we pay for being too cool for ground unitz
If you're being aggressively 4gated With efficient play, you can actually start your 1st phoenix before your 3rd sentry and still be safe!
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 Stargate 30 Sentry 32 (2nd) Gateway (Cut probes at 32 food) 32 Pylon; resume probe production upon completion 32 (3rd) Gateway
º¿º
(32) 4th CB on WG reasearch 34 (2nd) Sentry 36 Start 1st phoenix; cancel if you need the 100 gas. @100% 2nd Gateway, CB as you transform it to warpgate, and make (3rd) Sentry (39 food) 39 Zealot (Sentry if you will absolutely need an FF)
Once you have 3 sentries, a phoenix, 2 stalkers, 2 zealots and 3 warpgates, your opponent should have had 6 stalkers and 5 zealots for ~10 seconds. 4 gaters tend to back off once their pylons go down and they've humped the shit out of 3 chained forcefields, but not always. While your 1st phoenix is training, you need to make an important executive decision. Will you need that 4th force field before you can get enough gas with the 100 gas sunk into the phoenix? If you think so, cancel the phoenix and get the 4th sentry. If not, let the phoenix finish and get the sentry with your next 100 gas if you need to do so.
Yes. I know 4 sentries is a lot before you start your first phoenix. TBH, you're not going to run into many 100% perfect 4gates that establish themselves at your ramp ready for a warp-in at the target time of 5:34, so you probably will almost never have to make 4. I just have the numbers "4" and "5:34" here because I'm crash testing it against a near theoretically perfect 12gate 4gate. Wait why are you complaining? You can't get fast tech units while skimping almost entirely on defense against a brutish all-in. What do you think you are, terran?
If you're not being aggressively 4gated This shit is so sick if you can get away with it.
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 Stargate 30 Sentry 32 (2nd) Gateway (Cut probes at 32 food) 32 Pylon (resume probes production upon completion 33 (3rd gateway optional)
Follow up
If you get to your phoenixes off of 1 sentry, you are in great shape. You don't necessarily need the 3rd gate, but it can help in a pinch against a WP 4gate. I like to send my first phoenixes to the edges of my base and bee line them to my opponents base to check if a WP is en route. If he gets to your base and begins to warp in, engage with your GW units while lifting up the zealots 1 at a time with your phoenixes. Might as well pull probes, as if his attack fails he cannot retreat with anything whatsoever.
To be safe from dt builds, go ahead and start your robo after your 3rd phoenix.
Assuming no wp/dt rush came, you have a few options now.
You can expand off of your phoenixes, perhaps denying an observer scout with phoenix observer combination while keeping them pinned with the phoenixes, threatening to pick off gas probes on a flyby. Be careful here; you don't want to waste all of your phoenix energy on probes only to get all inned, unable to lift a significant amount of units. Pheonix are a wonderful part of a protoss composition; what are all ground units bad against in a scuffle? colossus (ok speed prism immortal hipsters let's not get all riled up). And nothing deters or even shuts down colossus play like an early phoenix build. This means he will either favor stalkers or immortals with his gas in the early-mid game, both of which can be dealt with a a phoenix composition with immortals and zealots sprinkled in. Phoenix play tend to instigate zealot/archon pushes, but these are not very strong with proper simcity even if you take an expansion.
On the other hand, you can turn this into the sickest pvp all-in of all time. You can either hit relatively quickly, adding on a 4th gate and sniping sentries up a ramp with your phoenix as your zealots stroll right on up. Or, against a late expansion which you sometimes see in a pvp where both are reluctant to drop the nexus, you can can get up to 3 or 4 immortals, a mess of zealots, hell even an archon or two to prevent ff's from blocking your zealots. Your immortals will deal with the simcity and any cannons they might have erected. This all-in comes pretty late, as you can probably tell.
This build has more room for error against aggressive 4gate, but obviously does not exploit non 4gate play as hard as the 1 gate build
If you're being aggressively 4gated
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 (2nd) Gateway 30 Sentry
º¿º
(32) 4th CB on WG research 32 Pylon (earlier than usual; resume probe production more quickly, and you are not sure if you can alot so much gas to phoenixes right away so why not get the pylon first? Works either way.. not much of a difference, really) 32 Stargate 33 (3rd) Gateway 35 (2nd) Sentry
**You have an extra WG cool down here. You can choose to get another sentry immediately to be 100% safe, or try to risk it by going sentry/zealot to start your phoenix production earlier. This will come down to the timing of your opponent's 4gate and the efficiency of his approach. Do you need that 3rd sentry right away? If so, get it. If you are completely sure you do not, warp in 1 sentry and 1 other unit (preferably a zealot to conserve gas) at this point and get your 4th sentry on the next round of cool downs if need be.
Phoenix builds don't have the punishing power that blink builds do against failed 4gates, but you still should have no trouble winning the game from here.
If you're not being aggressively 4gated You have a lot more flexibility with this opener. It's pretty goddam safe if I do say so myself 9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core (earliest scout; feel free to scout later) 17 zealot (18 if you scouted on core, 17 if you haven't scouted yet) 20 (2nd) Gas 22 Stalker; no chronoboost 22 WG; Chronoboost x3 24 Pylon (25 if you scouted before core) 26 Stalker; 1 chrono boost 29 (2nd) Gateway 30 Sentry 32 Stargate 32 Pylon 32 (Optional 3rd Gate) 35 Phoenix
On January 11 2012 09:12 gdalam wrote: Am I the only person who walks up the ramp immediately with my first Zealot and Stalker when I 4 Gate? This build doesn't seem to have anything to address that.
Being as aggressive as possible with your first Zealot and Stalker (ie. rallied to his base) will force a fight before your opponent's second Stalker is out (on most map distances). If your micro is even half decent and your opponent wasn't watching his ramp at that exact moment, you should be able to win the fight or at least trade evenly. This will allow you to easily get your Probe into his main and build your Pylons, nullifying the fast Sentry.
well that's a hell of a condition
as noted in the op, your first 3 units will be down the ramp spread in such a way to see a probe/approach at every angle. a zealot stalker and a probe.. i will focus down the probe before it gets up the ramp. at best you get 2 pylons down below the ramp. if you try to engage with your zealot stalker, i will kill them both for free, should time allow before i have to dance up my ramp as my sentry pops out
Although I agree 4 gate isn't the most viable strategy PvP anymore, I am quite skeptical about how you worded the fact that "4 gate is dead". Unless something big changes, I think we will still see 4 gate at the highest levels from time to time. The meta game already has shifted to "DO SOMETHING ELSE CAUSE YOUR OPPONENT IS STOPPING 4 GATE!" and that results in safe builds vs. the 4 gate. Unfortunately, these safe builds against the 4 gate can't pressure, and if your opponent is doing something even MORE greedy than you, he will win the game. This leads you to also cut corners, and eventually it gets to a point where you can't hold a 4 gate anymore either.
What does this mean? I rarely ever 4 gate and agree it can be stopped with a huge advantage using 1 gate robo or whatever, but as people get more greedy, the builds you have outlined will not be able to stop the mid-game advantage the other greedier player has received. Again, this reiterates my point that eventually you will have to be greedier, and when you do that and get 4 gated, you will also lose.
TL;DR I agree 4 gate is one of the weakest strategies in the current metagame at this point in time, but I also strongly believe it won't die out for a very long time. Great post though and glad you're helping everyone with these nice guides on builds!
On January 11 2012 03:17 caradoc wrote: What about losing to an apparent but not-all-in 4gate in the long term via spending too much money on gas for sentries? I'm thinking of cases where your opponent takes the low ground, warps enough stuff in to make it look like he's being all-in aggressive, and techs behind it, forcing you to spend a lot on sentries to keep a constant ff up.
Could you show me such a build? that does sound like it'd be quite cryptic. I suppose counting the units would help somewhat. If this guy warps in 3 stalkers and 3 zealots at a standard 4gate timing (as in not a quick 3 gate), I'm going to know something is up, but I will still probably need to add a sentry or two just to be safe. Great question I hope I can answer it for you eventually
On January 11 2012 09:55 SaroVati wrote: Although I agree 4 gate isn't the most viable strategy PvP anymore, I am quite skeptical about how you worded the fact that "4 gate is dead". Unless something big changes, I think we will still see 4 gate at the highest levels from time to time. The meta game already has shifted to "DO SOMETHING ELSE CAUSE YOUR OPPONENT IS STOPPING 4 GATE!" and that results in safe builds vs. the 4 gate. Unfortunately, these safe builds against the 4 gate can't pressure, and if your opponent is doing something even MORE greedy than you, he will win the game. This leads you to also cut corners, and eventually it gets to a point where you can't hold a 4 gate anymore either.
What does this mean? I rarely ever 4 gate and agree it can be stopped with a huge advantage using 1 gate robo or whatever, but as people get more greedy, the builds you have outlined will not be able to stop the mid-game advantage the other greedier player has received. Again, this reiterates my point that eventually you will have to be greedier, and when you do that and get 4 gated, you will also lose.
TL;DR I agree 4 gate is one of the weakest strategies in the current metagame at this point in time, but I also strongly believe it won't die out for a very long time. Great post though and glad you're helping everyone with these nice guides on builds!
I agree that simply the threat of 4gate existing means it can never die, but I feel like this opener is pretty damn greedy considering it's safety against a 4gate. I get my 1st tech structure off of one gate! I can sit pretty with 4 units up until any other build wants to start making units as well, as everyone has to be watching for the 4gate WP play. Unless they're being greedy to the point that they don't account for that. At that point it's just bad play
I've been trying to emulate the openings, but i just can't seem to get that sentry out by 5:25. It's usually 9-10 seconds later for me, which is far too late against the 4gate to be of use. I guess I need to work on my mineral stacking?
On January 11 2012 10:02 Minus151 wrote: I've been trying to emulate the openings, but i just can't seem to get that sentry out by 5:25. It's usually 9-10 seconds later for me, which is far too late against the 4gate to be of use. I guess I need to work on my mineral stacking?
Mineral stacking, putting your buildings down on time and scout time all factor heavily into it. Before you get to mineral stacking, I recommend just getting 8 probes on 8 different patches, then trying to get the next four of them on the closer patches on xel'naga
I needed this guide like... like... I can't think of any analogy that doesn't involve cocaine. Thank you.
Two questions;
1) I realise you haven't tested against the 11gate max chrono builds, but I'm really curious what would happen. Are there any reactive adjustments you could think of to be sure you'd survive, before testing it properly? Even if they were massive overkill. I'm seeing 11gate 3/4gates really, really often on ladder on my level/server.
2) What do you do on maps where you have to scout earlier for proxies? My current go-to builds are the 11 probe puncher and (now) this, and both of those scout on core. I really don't know what to do on maps like Shakuras.
What's the point of scouting so late? Couldn't you cut more corners if you scouted earlier to confirm they aren't 4gating? Does a core scout even give you any information except their location? Even at HSC the latest JYP and MC scouted was after the 16 pylon.
Even though you get 1 zealot 2 stalkers, you can't even fake a 4 gate so what is the point in getting the zealot. The build seems only useful if you 100% sure know your opponent is 4 gating. Even then I think I'd rather 3 stalker rush.
On January 11 2012 09:12 gdalam wrote: Am I the only person who walks up the ramp immediately with my first Zealot and Stalker when I 4 Gate? This build doesn't seem to have anything to address that.
Being as aggressive as possible with your first Zealot and Stalker (ie. rallied to his base) will force a fight before your opponent's second Stalker is out (on most map distances). If your micro is even half decent and your opponent wasn't watching his ramp at that exact moment, you should be able to win the fight or at least trade evenly. This will allow you to easily get your Probe into his main and build your Pylons, nullifying the fast Sentry.
well that's a hell of a condition
as noted in the op, your first 3 units will be down the ramp spread in such a way to see a probe/approach at every angle. a zealot stalker and a probe.. i will focus down the probe before it gets up the ramp. at best you get 2 pylons down below the ramp. if you try to engage with your zealot stalker, i will kill them both for free, should time allow before i have to dance up my ramp as my sentry pops out
To clarify, what I meant was that if they aren't watching, you should be able to get in there and kill their initial Stalker and Zealot, putting yourself at a huge advantage. Even if they do catch you at the ramp, you should be able to trade and muck up their very tight anti 4Gate build.
And apparently you didn't understand what I said. If you rally your first Stalker over, you will get there before your opponent has their second Stalker (except certain cross spawns obviously). With half decent micro you'll be able to trade and get your Probe in there.
On January 11 2012 10:05 Belisarius wrote: I needed this guide like... like... I can't think of any analogy that doesn't involve cocaine. Thank you.
Two questions;
1) I realise you haven't tested against the 11gate max chrono builds, but I'm really curious what would happen. Are there any reactive adjustments you could think of to be sure you'd survive, before testing it properly? Even if they were massive overkill. I'm seeing 11gate 3/4gates really, really often on ladder on my level/server.
2) What do you do on maps where you have to scout earlier for proxies? My current go-to builds are the 11 probe puncher and (now) this, and both of those scout on core. I really don't know what to do on maps like Shakuras.
Glad I could help you out!
1. a good tinman will make the approach around 4:45. Your 2nd stalker will be just finishing at this point. I'm considering always placing my pylon+gate closer to the ramp just to account for this. You won't have the luxury of a second stalker to take down the probe, but you should still be able to deny an above ramp pylon. However, most 11 gates you see on the ladder will not be finely tuned enough to get the nearly ideal warp in of 5:22, finishing 5 seconds thereafter. Even if they do pull it off, you should be able to deny high ground vision for the first warp in with your 1z2s against his 1z1s, allowing your 1st sentry to get out with plenty of time to place the forcefield when he tries to get up the ramp and eventually warp in zealots. Your 2nd sentry timing is going to be very important here. You need to start warping it in 5 seconds before your 1st ff falls, put another way, 10 seconds after you place it. A pretty good 2nd sentry timing falls a bit before 5:50, which is troubling against a good tinman. If they push with 4s1z after the first warp-in, they'll hit the ramp at about 5:30 if they have REEEEALLY good timing. You still have a 1 stalker lead before his warp in, so you can at least stall him and then hold a strong presence above the ramp with 1z2s1s.
If his timing is perfect, I think it's a bit of a BO loss. But you don't usually see perfect timing, as that 5th CB on the WG tech is really hard to nail perfectly. Assuming a perfect 11 gate, you might only have success by pulling some probes as the stalkers are pushing up the ramp to buy some time for the 2nd sentry to warp in to try to deny vision up the ramp for the zealot warp-in which should always start AFTER you have your 2nd sentry and thus 2nd ff; if you can deny vision up for the zealot warp-in, you win if you can chain the 3rd ff in time. The 2 gate openers should shut this down if you can get to this point, but the 1 gate openers might not be able to get out the 3rd sentry in time 100% of the time
2. On shak, I'd scout for proxies in base and between your nat and the close nat and the tower on 12. You can still use this build, but with a slightly later core, zealot on 18 instead of 17, 2nd gas on 21 instead of 20. You have the advantage here later because you can zone an aggressive push through the large ramp, allowing you to snipe the probe 100% of the time, usually before they can even place the 2nd pylon, and usually netting yourself a free stalker if he's too pushy. This build is extremely strong on such maps for this reason; never lose to wg pressure on shak/antigua/entombed or forever live in shame!
On January 11 2012 10:18 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: How badly would you mess up these builds if you just did gate scouts?
Not too badly. core time will suffer ~5 seconds. Not a big deal on maps like antigua/shak/entombed where you have the advantage of the secondary ramp to zone the approach. On metal, proxies are tough because you have to probe scout a long way to check for them (by your 3rd and by your gold), so I usually opt for 11gate here rather than this build.
On January 11 2012 10:14 paintfive wrote: What's the point of scouting so late? Couldn't you cut more corners if you scouted earlier to confirm they aren't 4gating? Does a core scout even give you any information except their location? Even at HSC the latest JYP and MC scouted was after the 16 pylon.
Even though you get 1 zealot 2 stalkers, you can't even fake a 4 gate so what is the point in getting the zealot. The build seems only useful if you 100% sure know your opponent is 4 gating. Even then I think I'd rather 3 stalker rush.
The zealot helps tremendously against any gw pressure builds and you might as well get it at the prescribed time because your production is going to be pretty tied up with stalker/sentry production until you have either ruled out WG aggression or after it is over. What else would one do with those minerals anyway? Investing it in an earlier gate is the trendy thing to do, but that's not my style :D
Zealot will also help against wp 4gate later on, and I don't have to blow and WG cool downs on it since I already have it!
On January 11 2012 09:12 gdalam wrote: Am I the only person who walks up the ramp immediately with my first Zealot and Stalker when I 4 Gate? This build doesn't seem to have anything to address that.
Being as aggressive as possible with your first Zealot and Stalker (ie. rallied to his base) will force a fight before your opponent's second Stalker is out (on most map distances). If your micro is even half decent and your opponent wasn't watching his ramp at that exact moment, you should be able to win the fight or at least trade evenly. This will allow you to easily get your Probe into his main and build your Pylons, nullifying the fast Sentry.
well that's a hell of a condition
as noted in the op, your first 3 units will be down the ramp spread in such a way to see a probe/approach at every angle. a zealot stalker and a probe.. i will focus down the probe before it gets up the ramp. at best you get 2 pylons down below the ramp. if you try to engage with your zealot stalker, i will kill them both for free, should time allow before i have to dance up my ramp as my sentry pops out
To clarify, what I meant was that if they aren't watching, you should be able to get in there and kill their initial Stalker and Zealot, putting yourself at a huge advantage. Even if they do catch you at the ramp, you should be able to trade and muck up their very tight anti 4Gate build.
And apparently you didn't understand what I said. If you rally your first Stalker over, you will get there before your opponent has their second Stalker (except certain cross spawns obviously). With half decent micro you'll be able to trade and get your Probe in there.
how will your 2 unchronoboosted stalkers get to my ramp before my 2nd stalker, chronoboosted, gets to my ramp..?
Very cool was playing with the idea of scouting really late and using the extra minerals to do get out an additional Stalker and go 1 Gate Twilight most of my games. Survived a 4 Gate without making a single Sentry (blink finished in time) and then the other games my Blink timing was just earlier than prepared for resulting in timing attack wins. Pretty cool idea. Only thing is not sure what to do vs proxy 2 Gate?
I used to defend 4gates with sentries, then I took a warp in to the knee.
Every season, Pro-Tossers claim that 4gate is dead and every season I change my build to something more econ or techy as a result and die to a 4gate.
I am now convinced that 4-gate is immortal. You can never kill it. and if you think it's dead and lower your guard, it will bludgeon you to death. The only way to defeat the monster is to become the monster.
On January 11 2012 16:40 CecilSunkure wrote: Very cool was playing with the idea of scouting really late and using the extra minerals to do get out an additional Stalker and go 1 Gate Twilight most of my games. Survived a 4 Gate without making a single Sentry (blink finished in time) and then the other games my Blink timing was just earlier than prepared for resulting in timing attack wins. Pretty cool idea. Only thing is not sure what to do vs proxy 2 Gate?
beat 6 stalker 1 zealot at 5:40 with 1 gate twilight??? replay plzzzz O_O
if i fear a 2 gate proxy on a map, I will either scout for proxy on 12 then return to mining.. slightly slower timings but at least not embarrassing loss to 2 gate proxy ^^
that or I will use a different more flexible build. on antigua you can 2nd pylon or core scout thru middle. if they proxy there, which i have seen, you can defend it with cb on units just because the walk distance is so long. on metal/shak/xel i'm not going to risk waiting til 15 because the proxy locations are much closer
On January 11 2012 16:40 CecilSunkure wrote: Very cool was playing with the idea of scouting really late and using the extra minerals to do get out an additional Stalker and go 1 Gate Twilight most of my games. Survived a 4 Gate without making a single Sentry (blink finished in time) and then the other games my Blink timing was just earlier than prepared for resulting in timing attack wins. Pretty cool idea. Only thing is not sure what to do vs proxy 2 Gate?
beat 6 stalker 1 zealot at 5:40 with 1 gate twilight??? replay plzzzz O_O
if i fear a 2 gate proxy on a map, I will either scout for proxy on 12 then return to mining.. slightly slower timings but at least not embarrassing loss to 2 gate proxy ^^
that or I will use a different more flexible build. on antigua you can 2nd pylon or core scout thru middle. if they proxy there, which i have seen, you can defend it with cb on units just because the walk distance is so long. on metal/shak/xel i'm not going to risk waiting til 15 because the proxy locations are much closer
I watched again it was actually just 3 gate 2 gas Stalker allin so not too great of a replay, but I had a some cool micro once Blink finished
Then I beat a half proxy gate (yes one half of a proxy gate) with cool probe micro and ended up winning with Blink + DT. Also interesting game but not really build from this thread since aggression came so soon I had to deviate.
On January 11 2012 17:03 Selendis wrote: I used to defend 4gates with sentries, then I took a warp in to the knee.
Every season, Pro-Tossers claim that 4gate is dead and every season I change my build to something more econ or techy as a result and die to a 4gate.
I am now convinced that 4-gate is immortal. You can never kill it. and if you think it's dead and lower your guard, it will bludgeon you to death. The only way to defeat the monster is to become the monster.
yes you must respect the animal. the 1 gate builds walk the line of spitting in the face of the beast, but the 2 gate builds respect 4g and should hold it 100% of the time as long as you hit your 4th chrono the second you recognize whassup and don't choke and mess up your build from then on
"Don't scout until late" is still the worst advice you can possibly give for PvP. Scout on 9, every time. 1/5 ladder Protoss will proxy gate or cannon rush you, and if you don't scout that before you put your core down it's game over.
These builds also straight up die to DT rush, you're not scouting early enough and immortal before obs + no chrono boosts means they will depower your robo before the obs pops out.
On January 11 2012 19:39 blowfish wrote: no this is also a counter to my beloved 11 gate 3 gate - or ist it?
We were talking about this earlier and i think not, although i have never played around with 11 gate myself i have seen it a few times and i am not sure how well this build would deal with it.
Naniwa like to for a slight wall with his cybercore and second pylon, and it might be that he holds it off by finishing the wall as in the picture here:
4 Gates is not anymore a "I will win on 90% of PvP if my enemy doesn't do the same" build
But it is still viable, with skill and map help or mind tricks
Do not missunderstand me, I really never liked the 4Gates on PvP, I tried always to use a tech build, contain and then win (sometimes worked fine, others not that well...)
I am glad to see the PvP stop being 4 Gates 90% of time, but it is still a viable All In, with less success rate, as it should be
On January 11 2012 19:56 Deadstrider wrote: Great builds! going to try them as soon as im home. Now I need a build that holds off 4gate on Tal'darim.. Any ideas?
For the time being, you can try out this one, but i fear in a few months it would be figured out and countered. But maybe by then there will be another build, because i suspect that like me you have practiced 4 gating more than you would have liked to.
On January 11 2012 19:56 Deadstrider wrote: Great builds! going to try them as soon as im home. Now I need a build that holds off 4gate on Tal'darim.. Any ideas?
For the time being, you can try out this one, but i fear in a few months it would be figured out and countered. But maybe by then there will be another build, because i suspect that like me you have practiced 4 gating more than you would have liked to.
On January 11 2012 19:56 Deadstrider wrote: Great builds! going to try them as soon as im home. Now I need a build that holds off 4gate on Tal'darim.. Any ideas?
For the time being, you can try out this one, but i fear in a few months it would be figured out and countered. But maybe by then there will be another build, because i suspect that like me you have practiced 4 gating more than you would have liked to.
Plus the build is fun and you get so much rage from confused opponents who then that their 4 gate is always meant to work...
Looks cool, but do you go Robo before warpgate? That feels so strange tt, Im only plat so I think this will work like a charm!
Yeah, but it is only like 8 gas, so the difference is seconds. The fact is warp gate isn't nearly as important as immortals in this build, so get the immortals first. If you are really good about your probe micro at the start and then put probes into gas the instant it finishes you have 150gas and approx 300 minerals just as the core is done so no problem.
I can't imagine it has any problem against Adel's build, especially if you follow the wall in method, and the same could possibly be used against the Korean 4 gate, which requires them getting into your base to place multiple pylons. I do not know, because i never see K4Gates anymore, nor the Adelscott no gas build.
Also, this build chrono boosts core for it's entire duration after only 2 chronos on probes, which should help against both builds.
Also, keep in mind that the PvP strategies on Liquipedia are well out of date, i am in the process of updating them over the next few days. Starting with putting in the 11 gate and newer versions of the 3 gate robo twilight builds.
@Surili when i think about it Korean 4 gate should not be a problem with that build. I only got in trouble against it if i skipt the zealot. Then its kinda hard to kill all the pylons since the stalker dps is so low.
well thx to Alejandrisha for the effort, this looks really promising, i will practice this build order further.
Is there any particular reason to build the "32 Immortal; chronoboost" if there is no 4 gate coming? Building an observer first would be nice. Against Phoenix builds its not optimal to have a immortal out.
On January 11 2012 19:56 Deadstrider wrote: Great builds! going to try them as soon as im home. Now I need a build that holds off 4gate on Tal'darim.. Any ideas?
For the time being, you can try out this one, but i fear in a few months it would be figured out and countered. But maybe by then there will be another build, because i suspect that like me you have practiced 4 gating more than you would have liked to.
Plus the build is fun and you get so much rage from confused opponents who then that their 4 gate is always meant to work...
Looks cool, but do you go Robo before warpgate? That feels so strange tt, Im only plat so I think this will work like a charm!
Yeah, but it is only like 8 gas, so the difference is seconds. The fact is warp gate isn't nearly as important as immortals in this build, so get the immortals first. If you are really good about your probe micro at the start and then put probes into gas the instant it finishes you have 150gas and approx 300 minerals just as the core is done so no problem.
Aah ok, will try the build when I get PvP on Tal'darim! Thanks!
Since the rush distance is so long on Tal'darim I dont think Adel's build is a problem, Zealots are sooo slow.. By that time most protoss already have a Stalker out..
I play in master league and I use 4gate in PvP and I have pretty good win rate with it. My 4gate is similar than what I've seen vileYong and Naniwa using. I attack with 1s1z and two probes so that my first pylon on low ground is placed at 5:15 and next pylon is on high ground. Do you Alej think that you could kill both my probes before one of them makes a pylon on high ground?
On January 12 2012 00:52 Tansu wrote: I play in master league and I use 4gate in PvP and I have pretty good win rate with it. My 4gate is similar than what I've seen vileYong and Naniwa using. I attack with 1s1z and two probes so that my first pylon on low ground is placed at 5:15 and next pylon is on high ground. Do you Alej think that you could kill both my probes before one of them makes a pylon on high ground?
I tested this about 25 times with my brother and we found it was impossible to get pylons on the high ground if the defender is paying attention to the ramp.
On January 12 2012 00:52 Tansu wrote: I play in master league and I use 4gate in PvP and I have pretty good win rate with it. My 4gate is similar than what I've seen vileYong and Naniwa using. I attack with 1s1z and two probes so that my first pylon on low ground is placed at 5:15 and next pylon is on high ground. Do you Alej think that you could kill both my probes before one of them makes a pylon on high ground?
I tested this about 25 times with my brother and we found it was impossible to get pylons on the high ground if the defender is paying attention to the ramp.
Did you try this with Alej's build? So that defender has 2 stalkers and 1 zealot? And when you have tested it with your brother, it is a lot easier to be ready to target the probes because you know what is coming.
In the GaHoDeaDoX - Chrono game if GaHo had had 2 probes, there would have been quite a big chance of 1 probe getting into the opponent base.
learn to time your builds with a 12 scout. On a 4p map if you scout him last I assume you play blindly to counter a 4gate which puts you behind vs any tech play. If you don't blind counter the 4gate then you lose to it if they are actually doing it.
On January 12 2012 00:52 Tansu wrote: I play in master league and I use 4gate in PvP and I have pretty good win rate with it. My 4gate is similar than what I've seen vileYong and Naniwa using. I attack with 1s1z and two probes so that my first pylon on low ground is placed at 5:15 and next pylon is on high ground. Do you Alej think that you could kill both my probes before one of them makes a pylon on high ground?
I tested this about 25 times with my brother and we found it was impossible to get pylons on the high ground if the defender is paying attention to the ramp.
Did you try this with Alej's build? So that defender has 2 stalkers and 1 zealot? And when you have tested it with your brother, it is a lot easier to be ready to target the probes because you know what is coming.
Now that I've practiced it I feel confident I can reproduce the defense on the ladder. If you are going to the trouble of get the fast second stalker then you should watch your ramp at the right time for probes. It's not a matter of difficulty, just prioritising your focus.
On January 12 2012 01:23 Tansu wrote: In the GaHoDeaDoX - Chrono game if GaHo had had 2 probes, there would have been quite a big chance of 1 probe getting into the opponent base.
Where can I find this game? You only need 4 volleys with the stalkers to take out both probes... high ground is a long way to run.
On January 12 2012 01:34 iamke55 wrote: 12 gate 17 core is very, very ambitious. Can you pull this off 100% of the time if you practice probe stacking?
If you don't gateway scout there is absolutely no problem. If you gateway scout it's only possible on maps like XNC with probe micro (without cutting probes)
On January 12 2012 01:34 iamke55 wrote: 12 gate 17 core is very, very ambitious. Can you pull this off 100% of the time if you practice probe stacking?
12 gate 17 core is pretty doable with 12 scout as well. if you scout on 2nd pylon or core, you should have no problem getting a 17 core that is exactly the same timing as a would-be 16 core; you have 200 mins with no probe in queue when the gate finishes with good probe stacking. to practice your probe stacking is a must for protoss player imo
On January 12 2012 00:52 Tansu wrote: I play in master league and I use 4gate in PvP and I have pretty good win rate with it. My 4gate is similar than what I've seen vileYong and Naniwa using. I attack with 1s1z and two probes so that my first pylon on low ground is placed at 5:15 and next pylon is on high ground. Do you Alej think that you could kill both my probes before one of them makes a pylon on high ground?
I tested this about 25 times with my brother and we found it was impossible to get pylons on the high ground if the defender is paying attention to the ramp.
Did you try this with Alej's build? So that defender has 2 stalkers and 1 zealot? And when you have tested it with your brother, it is a lot easier to be ready to target the probes because you know what is coming.
On January 12 2012 01:23 Tansu wrote: In the GaHoDeaDoX - Chrono game if GaHo had had 2 probes, there would have been quite a big chance of 1 probe getting into the opponent base.
Where can I find this game? You only need 4 volleys with the stalkers to take out both probes... high ground is a long way to run.
Click the first "Show spoiler" thing in the Alejandrisha's post and then click the "this thread" link. There you can find the game in which the defending wouldnt have been that easy if there were 2 probes (maybe possible though, not sure...)
And to make it harder to target the probes with really good micro you could maybe click the minerals so that probes are moving under the stalker and zealot a short distance.
On January 11 2012 04:08 kcdc wrote: Good work. Blink and robo complete. Now optimize for me the thinnest possible stargate opening that's safe against 4 gate. Please?
EGAxlav's phoenix opening is incredibly thin, I've been working on it in some practice games against no one and the timings feel relatively safe. It's similar to both of the builds Alej posted here in the fact it gets a sentry in time for a balls to the wall 4gate (you can start the sentry as early as 5:10 or so if you're optimized and can chrono boost it as well).
Yeah, I'm not sure I like that opening. I don't know why it gets 3 stalkers before the sentry when 2 is enough, and I don't really love chronoboosting my gate since speeding resources spent in your gateway slows your extra buildings. I like Alej's 1 gate twilight opening better, and I'll probably try to adapt it to get a stargate instead of a twilight. That is, unless Alej has a perfectly fine-tuned build order for me to just copy.
i'm sorry but where is axslav getting 3 stalkers before sentry? :< you said that twice so i really wonder if you just misread
On January 11 2012 19:13 Xequecal wrote: "Don't scout until late" is still the worst advice you can possibly give for PvP. Scout on 9, every time. 1/5 ladder Protoss will proxy gate or cannon rush you, and if you don't scout that before you put your core down it's game over.
These builds also straight up die to DT rush, you're not scouting early enough and immortal before obs + no chrono boosts means they will depower your robo before the obs pops out.
well fuck i guess these builds have no value and i apologize for making you read the 8 words of the op you seemed to skim over
considering the wealth of evidence you have provided for your claims, i
Alej, I was trying stargate BO's, and I think it makes sense to save an extra chrono on nexus (cut the one at 11 supply), get the 2nd gas before the zealot, and use the extra chrono on the gate to make up the production lag of not starting the zealot on time. This lets you mine a little extra gas which can be used to get your SG a little sooner and start phoenix production without playing risky with your 4th sentry.
4 gate is not dead until there is a reliable way to expand before warpgate is researched.
You must definitely scout your base when you throw down your gateway, but I agree there's no point to see the other player's base until their cyber core is finished, but I still must pylon scout on large maps.
On January 12 2012 00:52 Tansu wrote: I play in master league and I use 4gate in PvP and I have pretty good win rate with it. My 4gate is similar than what I've seen vileYong and Naniwa using. I attack with 1s1z and two probes so that my first pylon on low ground is placed at 5:15 and next pylon is on high ground. Do you Alej think that you could kill both my probes before one of them makes a pylon on high ground?
I tested this about 25 times with my brother and we found it was impossible to get pylons on the high ground if the defender is paying attention to the ramp.
Did you try this with Alej's build? So that defender has 2 stalkers and 1 zealot? And when you have tested it with your brother, it is a lot easier to be ready to target the probes because you know what is coming.
On January 12 2012 01:23 Tansu wrote: In the GaHoDeaDoX - Chrono game if GaHo had had 2 probes, there would have been quite a big chance of 1 probe getting into the opponent base.
Where can I find this game? You only need 4 volleys with the stalkers to take out both probes... high ground is a long way to run.
Click the first "Show spoiler" thing in the Alejandrisha's post and then click the "this thread" link. There you can find the game in which the defending wouldnt have been that easy if there were 2 probes (maybe possible though, not sure...)
And to make it harder to target the probes with really good micro you could maybe click the minerals so that probes are moving under the stalker and zealot a short distance.
Maybe indeed. Try it with a practice partner and find out for sure. I think in that replay, with better stalker formation and their own control group, that first probe could have been dead before placing a single pylon.
On January 12 2012 02:14 kcdc wrote: Alej, I was trying stargate BO's, and I think it makes sense to save an extra chrono on nexus (cut the one at 11 supply), get the 2nd gas before the zealot, and use the extra chrono on the gate to make up the production lag of not starting the zealot on time. This lets you mine a little extra gas which can be used to get your SG a little sooner and start phoenix production without playing risky with your 4th sentry.
Just an idea.
i'll run it a few times, thanks. just want to make sure it doesn't mess up with zealot stalker stalker timings too much. when are you scouting with this?
i was able to get a bit extra gas by getting 1st gas on 13 and holding the 2nd cb on nexus until after i put the gas down. i don't know if i like cutting the 2nd cb on nexus altogether. will continue looking at this. in the case of getting 4gated with the 1 gate sg build, i see no problem in cutting the first phoenix until you have 4 sentries out. not like he's going to catch up after the 4g fails :D
On January 11 2012 03:11 ShatterZer0 wrote: Rest in Peace? More like: Writhe in Terror.
4 Gate will always be viable at a Pro level I think... just because getting an advantage is so hard in PvP that most pros will be willing to take a gamble... a gamble that will leave them open to 4 gate.
Hopefully this means less 4 gate on ladder though...
Yup, just recently MC 4gated JYP in HSC on Metalopolis. It failed miserably but he followed it up with good warp prism transition.
On January 12 2012 02:14 kcdc wrote: Alej, I was trying stargate BO's, and I think it makes sense to save an extra chrono on nexus (cut the one at 11 supply), get the 2nd gas before the zealot, and use the extra chrono on the gate to make up the production lag of not starting the zealot on time. This lets you mine a little extra gas which can be used to get your SG a little sooner and start phoenix production without playing risky with your 4th sentry.
Just an idea.
i'll run it a few times, thanks. just want to make sure it doesn't mess up with zealot stalker stalker timings too much. when are you scouting with this?
i was able to get a bit extra gas by getting 1st gas on 13 and holding the 2nd cb on nexus until after i put the gas down. i don't know if i like cutting the 2nd cb on nexus altogether. will continue looking at this. in the case of getting 4gated with the 1 gate sg build, i see no problem in cutting the first phoenix until you have 4 sentries out. not like he's going to catch up after the 4g fails :D
In my experience, the chrono on 11 supply doesn't do much since you wind up pausing probe production to get the gateway on 12 anyway. The length of the probe production cut will depend on your worker micro and the number of close patches, but it can negate most of the 10 seconds that spending the chrono gives you. A lot of 12 gate builds use a chrono there even tho it's partially wasted because there's not a better way to use it, but in this case, getting a little extra gas seems like a better use.
I was scouting after core, but I don't think that changes the chronoboost dynamic.
my cut is usually 2 seconds from 1:36 to 1:38 so i love that 1st cb! i think those cb's that end in probe cuts must be efficient somehow, as i regularly see hero use a 3rd cb after his pylon before core that end in a probe cut after core.. if he does it i figure it must be ok :D
are you trying to get extra gas to squeeze in the 1st phoenix while still getting the 4th sentry in time?
There are a few times where 4 gate is viable imo. Some games ill place my probe where the opponent is most likely to put down their cyber core. If i manage to block the cyber for around 10 seconds, then i'll 4 gate and most likely win.
On January 12 2012 03:34 Alejandrisha wrote: i think those cb's that end in probe cuts must be efficient somehow, as i regularly see hero use a 3rd cb after his pylon before core that end in a probe cut after core.. if he does it i figure it must be ok :D
HerO is an absolutely fantastic player, but I wouldn't use him as an authority on theoretical build order optimisation.. he keeps doing things like putting down his first pylon at like 160 minerals in pvz >_< IMO he just makes up for any little mistakes like that early on with doing everything else really well.
On January 12 2012 03:34 Alejandrisha wrote: i think those cb's that end in probe cuts must be efficient somehow, as i regularly see hero use a 3rd cb after his pylon before core that end in a probe cut after core.. if he does it i figure it must be ok :D
HerO is an absolutely fantastic player, but I wouldn't use him as an authority on theoretical build order optimisation.. he keeps doing things like putting down his first pylon at like 160 minerals in pvz >_< IMO he just makes up for any little mistakes like that early on with doing everything else really well.
Placing a pylon at that time doesn't mean he doesn't know how to use chronoboost. So I'd probably copy HerO's chronoboost (which I actually saw and was thinking about too from his stream) over taking your word on his credibility :/
On January 12 2012 03:34 Alejandrisha wrote: i think those cb's that end in probe cuts must be efficient somehow, as i regularly see hero use a 3rd cb after his pylon before core that end in a probe cut after core.. if he does it i figure it must be ok :D
HerO is an absolutely fantastic player, but I wouldn't use him as an authority on theoretical build order optimisation.. he keeps doing things like putting down his first pylon at like 160 minerals in pvz >_< IMO he just makes up for any little mistakes like that early on with doing everything else really well.
haha i've seen him do that quite a bit :D while he sometimes gets lazy on ladder when he's streaming, i still learn a lot from his decision making. it's funny because when you watch hero, it's really easy to see what he is thinking as he is playing. often you catch him while he's in the middle of making a decision on building placement or tech path or WG unit choice and it's cool to watch him solve problems.
that being said, i haven't adopted this 3rd cb on nexus before core as i feel it is a tad wonky ^^
How do these openers fare against your earlier 3-gate pressure build? Obviously, this one's ahead on tech - but how many probes can you lose without being behind?
Edit: I ask because it looks like you'll probably have to pull some probes if you run into the early 3-gate since this doesn't get out 2nd and 3rd sentries until well after 5:32 (which is, according to your other thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=273465 , when you'd need them). I assume the stalker timing is still sufficient to block out high ground pylons, no?
The cut length should be a little longer on maps with only 2 close patches on on annoying maps like Shakuras where mineral stacking doesn't work well on the close patches. But that chrono is generally worth maybe 4-8 seconds of probe production.
I want the extra gas partially so that it's easier to build phoenixes while getting 4-gated, but also in the case where I'm not getting 4-gated, I want to have enough gas to afford a sentry, chronoboosted phoenixes, and a timely robo. Gas on 14 and 20 seems to make me slow my phoenix production in order to get a robo after my 2nd phoenix (in order to be safe against DT's and blink), but maybe I'm just doing something wrong.
On January 12 2012 03:58 kcdc wrote: The cut length should be a little longer on maps with only 2 close patches on on annoying maps like Shakuras where mineral stacking doesn't work well on the close patches. But that chrono is generally worth maybe 4-8 seconds of probe production.
I want the extra gas partially so that it's easier to build phoenixes while getting 4-gated, but also in the case where I'm not getting 4-gated, I want to have enough gas to afford a sentry, chronoboosted phoenixes, and a timely robo. Gas on 14 and 20 seems to make me slow my phoenix production in order to get a robo after my 2nd phoenix (in order to be safe against DT's and blink), but maybe I'm just doing something wrong.
14/20 gas is pretty good for pvp in my eyes. i feel like gassing on 18 really slows down my infrastructure and would obviously screw up the 17 zeal - stalker - cb'd stalker - sentry chain that the opener is based around. when i'm not getting 4gated, the robo after 3rd phoenix seems quick enough and the phoenix timing doesn't feel sluggish at all. maybe you're not doing anything wrong, but just asking for too much :D
after looking closely at the ideal timings, I am confident this build would have serious trouble with a well executed 10 or 11 3 gate pressure with 5 chrono on WG.
- With the late scout (after cyber?), his stalker would likely be out before you reached his base, so you'd be in the dark. - your 3rd stalker pops at the same time as his, so you won't have a very big window to shut down pylons. - your first sentry doesn't pop until he is already pushing up your ramp with 5 stalkers and a zealot. FF will be too late to stop the second round of high ground warp ins - your warpgate and 2nd and 3rd gateways are severely delayed compared to almost any other 3 gate I've seen. He will get 2 rounds of warp ins on you before your first finishes, assuming you haven't died already.
Obviously, this all assumes a very well executed aggressive build from the opponent, but I am dubious of a build made just to defeat 4 gate that can't hold up against other wg timing attacks, and intentionally declines to scout to boot.
there are lots of anti 4 gate builds for maps with ramps.
What I'm really interested in seeing is something to kill it on Tal Darim...
On January 12 2012 05:30 quillian wrote: after looking closely at the ideal timings, I am confident this build would have serious trouble with a well executed 10 or 11 3 gate pressure with 5 chrono on WG.
- With the late scout (after cyber?), his stalker would likely be out before you reached his base, so you'd be in the dark. - your 3rd stalker pops at the same time as his, so you won't have a very big window to shut down pylons. - your first sentry doesn't pop until he is already pushing up your ramp with 5 stalkers and a zealot. FF will be too late to stop the second round of high ground warp ins - your warpgate and 2nd and 3rd gateways are severely delayed compared to almost any other 3 gate I've seen. He will get 2 rounds of warp ins on you before your first finishes, assuming you haven't died already.
Obviously, this all assumes a very well executed aggressive build from the opponent, but I am dubious of a build made just to defeat 4 gate that can't hold up against other wg timing attacks, and intentionally declines to scout to boot.
there are lots of anti 4 gate builds for maps with ramps.
What I'm really interested in seeing is something to kill it on Tal Darim...
well forget tda for the time being ^^ can you execute 10/11 gate builds 100%? i'd like to run this a few times against it if so
On January 12 2012 08:04 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: The extinction of one of the legendary builds of old? lol
Great guide!
yep. i think all pressure builds are going to revolve around 11gate with 5 cb on wg. not the 11 gates you saw at hsc. those were not the kinds of builds that kill some one or even do damage whatsoever. the tin man, on the other hand, has no heart.
gas stolen do stupid shit win not sure what to take away from this one... put 2 cannons in your min line if you see late dt shrine or put a damn pylon on the left edge of your base..?
2g robo vs 1g star phoenix expand! can't begin to tell you how important cannons and 1 archon are here. and make damn sure you are 100% checking for expansion
On January 12 2012 22:38 Fossa wrote: I know a gm player that 4 gates every game. If you send your first units (before warp in), to kill his sentry, he can't really stop you
On January 12 2012 03:58 kcdc wrote: The cut length should be a little longer on maps with only 2 close patches on on annoying maps like Shakuras where mineral stacking doesn't work well on the close patches. But that chrono is generally worth maybe 4-8 seconds of probe production.
Made me chuckle, Shakuras patches always piss me off too.
On January 12 2012 21:03 Rainofpain wrote: I would like a replay of you holding a 4 gate please (I`m plat and that`s why I need one :D ) ty ty for guide.
1st two replays in replay section of OP one of the is 4g other is wp 4g gogo
On January 12 2012 21:03 Rainofpain wrote: I would like a replay of you holding a 4 gate please (I`m plat and that`s why I need one :D ) ty ty for guide.
1st to replays in replay section of OP one of the is 4g other is wp 4g gogo
The replay where you held the 4 gate was very educational, I was shocked it`s as simple as FFs at your ramp :D This guide was vital in getting me to stop 4 gating and killing 4 gates, thanks so much. Have some of my happiness :D :D :D :D :D :D :D <3 <3 ♥ ♥ ♥ :D
On January 12 2012 21:03 Rainofpain wrote: I would like a replay of you holding a 4 gate please (I`m plat and that`s why I need one :D ) ty ty for guide.
1st to replays in replay section of OP one of the is 4g other is wp 4g gogo
The replay where you held the 4 gate was very educational, I was shocked it`s as simple as FFs at your ramp :D This guide was vital in getting me to stop 4 gating and killing 4 gates, thanks so much. Have some of my happiness :D :D :D :D :D :D :D <3 <3 ♥ ♥ ♥ :D
I have a pretty competent 4-gate I think, I'd be glad to play a few games with you to test out your builds. You can message me on battle.net at ioRemarK.771 anytime I am on
On January 13 2012 18:40 soLremarK wrote: I have a pretty competent 4-gate I think, I'd be glad to play a few games with you to test out your builds. You can message me on battle.net at ioRemarK.771 anytime I am on
If you manage to practice a few games out, pm me and I'll try my 3 gate pressure and see if he's behind economically as well :> But i vouch for remark, his 4 gate is as strong as any 4 gate you'll face.
I was wondering why you didn't respond to my question about the 3-gate, til I saw this:
On January 11 2012 01:08 Alejandrisha wrote:
I'm opening this one up to you guys. If you think your 4gate is good, shoot me a pm and I'd be happy to stamp it out with this build :D And your replays will go right here! Also if you have the the 11gate into 3 gate pressure build down pretty well, I'd like to run this against that a bunch of times as well.
I wish my 3-gate were better, but I'm not very good unfortunately.
On January 13 2012 18:40 soLremarK wrote: I have a pretty competent 4-gate I think, I'd be glad to play a few games with you to test out your builds. You can message me on battle.net at ioRemarK.771 anytime I am on
k bout to log on and add you thanks for your response
I only want to thank you for an amazing guide. I read it all while watching the replays and trying to understand the reasoning behind it all. Gonna try to practice out the build orders when I have time.
Also, it'd be nice to see some replays with 1g SG and 2g SG =)
On January 14 2012 03:09 Dauntless wrote: I only want to thank you for an amazing guide. I read it all while watching the replays and trying to understand the reasoning behind it all. Gonna try to practice out the build orders when I have time.
Also, it'd be nice to see some replays with 1g SG and 2g SG =)
on maps where you're forced to scout earlier (12), don't be afraid to use the information you get and be a little more greedy when appropriate. here, he cb'd his nexus a third time so i felt fine moving out without worrying about a probe sneaking behind the front lines. then, i see a sentry so i feel free to cut mine, and cut my 3rd gate as well.
Emyndri was kind enough to play some games. I lost a few games to 4gate from supply blocking my 2nd sentry, but held when I got the 2nd sentry out timely. It's very easy to make these kinds of mistakes under pressure, so make sure you prioritize your actions. microing stalkers might seem very important, but as long as no probe is sneaking through and your stalkers are hitting pylons, focus on executing the build.
his 4gate is off of an 11 gate so it wg comes a few seconds faster than usual. however, this means his approach is a bit weaker because he needs to cut the zealot to get the gateways up in time. to account for this, he brings 2 probes. so long as you timely take down the probes and cancel any above ground pylons (shouldn't be hard because the approach cuts units), the safe build should beat it 100% of the time.
also note: you'll see I don't scout as early as I ought to on xel'naga. the only reason we used xel'naga was because it is the hardest to map on which to effectively zone the approach
edit: leave your char code here or pm me with it if you feel confident in your 4gate and you'd like to do this with me. i'd be glad to play some games with you
Love all the details for different tech transition, thanks for continuing to update this!
re - 10 gate > 3 gate wg cheese, I'm maybe 95% on executing this build but I'd be happy to try it, as I want you to be right =)
The theoretical build is like this: 9 pylon 10 gateway 10 probe* 13 assimilator > transfer 3 14 scout 14 cybernetics core 15 zealot 17 pylon @100 gas put 1 probe on minerals 18 warpgate***** 18 stalker 21 gateway [2] 21 put 1 probe on gas 22 stalker 26 pylon 26 transform to warpgate [3] 26 stalker [3] 32 pylon 32 zealot [3]
It's extremely tight and can be tough to execute perfectly (gas micro isn't necessary, but helps ideally), but it demands even tighter play from your opponent to not die. The difference from a normal 3/4 gate is you can place the first proxy pylon more conservatively away from their ramp, and warp in a round of stalkers before placing your forward pylon at the ramp to warp in zealots on the high ground.
You can be very conservative/careful with your probe for the first pylon as it just has to be nearby. When you push for the 2nd pylon, you have cover from 5 stalkers and a zealot at the normal time a 4 gate would have just 1s 1z. this makes it pretty certain to place the forward pylon before the probe is sniped.
With your build, I'm not sure if you can get zealot stalker stalker sentry out in time to FF ramp when he first pokes. Maybe if you cb 2nd stalker and sentry, but this leaves less for WG. If you cut one of the stalkers, though, and go for faster sentry it might hold.
I'm a bit busy this weekend but could run some tests sun/monday maybe
On January 14 2012 04:31 quillian wrote: Love all the details for different tech transition, thanks for continuing to update this!
re - 10 gate > 3 gate wg cheese, I'm maybe 95% on executing this build but I'd be happy to try it, as I want you to be right =)
The theoretical build is like this: 9 pylon 10 gateway 10 probe* 13 assimilator > transfer 3 14 scout 14 cybernetics core 15 zealot 17 pylon @100 gas put 1 probe on minerals 18 warpgate***** 18 stalker 21 gateway [2] 21 put 1 probe on gas 22 stalker 26 pylon 26 transform to warpgate [3] 26 stalker [3] 32 pylon 32 zealot [3]
It's extremely tight and can be tough to execute perfectly, but it demands even tighter play from your opponent to not die. The difference from a normal 3/4 gate is you can place the first proxy pylon more conservatively away from their ramp, and warp in a round of stalkers before placing your forward pylon at the ramp to warp in zealots on the high ground. You can be very conservative/careful with your probe for the first pylon as it just has to be nearby. When you push for the 2nd pylon, you have cover from 5 stalkers and a zealot at the normal time a 4 gate would have just 1s 1z. this makes it pretty certain to place the forward pylon before the probe is sniped.
With your build, I'm not sure if you can get zealot stalker stalker sentry out in time to FF ramp when he first pokes. Maybe if you cb 2nd stalker and sentry, but this leaves less for WG. If you cut one of the stalkers, though, and go for faster sentry it might hold.
I'm a bit busy this weekend but could run some tests sun/monday maybe
sure! pm me your char code or leave it here. in the meantime i'll run this build to look at timings and such to see if it would be more effective than 11 gate with 5 cb on wg
looks like i can warp in up to 4-5 seconds faster than the 11gate build. this is good because you can force the first forcefield faster, which might stop the 1gater from getting his 3rd sentry out in time for the 3rd forcefield. you really can't play safe with the 1st proxy pylon, though. you need to proxy those two pylons under the ramp to cut down on distance from warp in to getting vision of the ramp, forcing the first forcefield to go down. the first forcefield will be in time, but it cuts it so close that the 2nd and 3rd forcefields will be hard to hit timely. i might have to pull probes to deny vision up the ramp while the 2nd sentry is getting out, something i was considering for the 11gate build as well. hope to test it soon
ok it's good the sentry is out. Obviously pulling probes isn't ideal but if you can hold it off you are probably gaining an advantage over time. Compared to 11 gate 4 gate this build has 1 less gate and just relies on the super early timing, so each warp in you can hold you are evening it out a bit.
My main worry is that since you don't scout, if you don't expect this and slack at all on sentry timing the FF won't be ready.
Is it possible to play your build and be safe with an earlier scout?
On January 14 2012 05:20 quillian wrote: ok it's good the sentry is out. Obviously pulling probes isn't ideal but if you can hold it off you are probably gaining an advantage over time. Compared to 11 gate 4 gate this build has 1 less gate and just relies on the super early timing, so each warp in you can hold you are evening it out a bit.
My main worry is that since you don't scout, if you don't expect this and slack at all on sentry timing the FF won't be ready.
Is it possible to play your build and be safe with an earlier scout?
1st sentry will be out at the same time regardless of the scout. the 2nd sentry will be out at the same time regardless of scout as well, as the only variation to get it faster is a 4th cb on WG which happens after i see the pylon(s). if you're 4gating me and i don't see pylons below my ramp until it's too late for me to cb my wg accordingly, i'm not worried as you can't threaten an above ramp warp-in before i already have my 2nd sentry is out. nani build too genius O_O
- I am a masters level random player - I learned protoss in masters, as random - I lose ~80% of my pvp's - you sir, are a god. Thank-you for this amazing and in-depth post that has significantly built my understanding of this god-forsaken race
Could someone explain to me a few things? I'm masters across the board but it's true that 4 gate is often my kryptonite. I understand this counters 4 gate, but without scouting til the second pylon, how can I get past a stalker at the ramp? Let's say I do get past and his chrono boost saved up hints at a 4 gate, I'm putting in almost as much chrono boost into my warp gate as he is. What's the point if I only have 2-3 gateways? Or maybe I wasn't too clear on the build. If I'm putting that much into warp gates, why don't I jus go 4 gate?
On January 14 2012 09:21 KalWarkov wrote: nice writeup.
But: really hard 4 gates played by high gm players are still amazingly hard to hold with 2 gate tech-builds. with 3 gates you are on the safer site.
PvP will always be a bit problematic, since: greedy build > safe build > 4 gate > greedy build if everything goes "normal"
the first two replays in the op are a WP 4gate from rank #3 gm in NA and a 4gate from rank #49 gm in NA; both were held with 1g variation. this build is made to hold ideal timing for the 4gate. doesn't matter who is pressing the buttons
edit: im not one to bring rank skill or w/e into the equation but... your comment made me cringe just slightly
On January 14 2012 03:09 Dauntless wrote: I only want to thank you for an amazing guide. I read it all while watching the replays and trying to understand the reasoning behind it all. Gonna try to practice out the build orders when I have time.
Also, it'd be nice to see some replays with 1g SG and 2g SG =)
on maps where you're forced to scout earlier (12), don't be afraid to use the information you get and be a little more greedy when appropriate. here, he cb'd his nexus a third time so i felt fine moving out without worrying about a probe sneaking behind the front lines. then, i see a sentry so i feel free to cut mine, and cut my 3rd gate as well.
On January 14 2012 04:29 Alejandrisha wrote: Emyndri was kind enough to play some games. I lost a few games to 4gate from supply blocking my 2nd sentry, but held when I got the 2nd sentry out timely. It's very easy to make these kinds of mistakes under pressure, so make sure you prioritize your actions. microing stalkers might seem very important, but as long as no probe is sneaking through and your stalkers are hitting pylons, focus on executing the build.
his 4gate is off of an 11 gate so it wg comes a few seconds faster than usual. however, this means his approach is a bit weaker because he needs to cut the zealot to get the gateways up in time. to account for this, he brings 2 probes. so long as you timely take down the probes and cancel any above ground pylons (shouldn't be hard because the approach cuts units), the safe build should beat it 100% of the time.
also note: you'll see I don't scout as early as I ought to on xel'naga. the only reason we used xel'naga was because it is the hardest to map on which to effectively zone the approach
edit: leave your char code here or pm me with it if you feel confident in your 4gate and you'd like to do this with me. i'd be glad to play some games with you
Couldn't he have busted up your ramp while you were waiting for your 3rd Sentry to warp in there? If he'd had a proxy pylon that wasn't beneath the ramp he could have had two more stalkers at that time.
Or was your 3rd Sentry late? It comes out of your second WG, which seems to be timed right. You do CB your 1st WG instead of WG research though, but that shouldn't matter..
Really great post. I have been doing all sorts of robo builds in PvP and my opponents just can't 4 gate me and kill me. It usually ends up in a situation where my army is a little better (because of immortals) and he pulls back to his base to work on economy. However, I already have a better economy, so I expand and push on his base and deny his expo as long as possible. It pulls the game into a longer, macro game, but my opponent is WAY too far behind to make a comeback.
On January 14 2012 09:21 KalWarkov wrote: PvP will always be a bit problematic, since: greedy build > safe build > 4 gate > greedy build if everything goes "normal"
While it is technically "right" that a build which is built to guard against 4-gate has categorically more freedom than one built to hold it (and therefore, is stronger than or equal in strength to all other builds, by some logical theorem I'm not going to look up). But if they're more or less a 50-50 split against each other and one guards against 4-gate - well, I guess what I'm saying is that you're missing the point with this comment by glossing over the details, which is that you can get an anti-4-gate build really really close to just a pure tech build. That's why this is a big deal - don't gloss it over with logic that is technically true, but reads in an incredibly misleading way.
I disagree, 250+ gas to hold off a potential 4wg, that precludes making an expansion, is absolutely going to be behind someone that takes a risk or scouts that there won't be a 4wg coming, and plays greedy. You might be able to get a window where you have better tech than a 4wg player, but you're looking at like, a window where you have a +1 upgrade advantage, or one more collossus than he does, advantages that force you to make use of a timing to make the best of it. A long term tech or economy advantage needs to be larger.
I used the robo alternative in most of my recent pvp games. on a side note: I only met one 4 gate which was very late, but i am pretty sure i would be able to hold a perfect 4 gate most of the times. (sometimes i messed up the build a little) I think the build is very nice but i have one big problem with it.
The lack of scouting for rushes (2 gate, canon rush, wierd other cheese). At least at my level (mid-high master EU) i get rushed very often in PvP. I am terrible at defending 2 gates and canon rushes so i was always scouting after pylon to be save against those before i started doing this build. The thing is the only map where u can't get rushed imho is Tal'darim Altar which i have vetoed anyways.^^ We have left Arid Plateau (2) Xel'Naga Caverns (2) Antiga Shipyard (4) Entombed Valley (4) Metalopolis (4)* Shakuras Plateau (4) The Shattered Temple (4) where u can at least proxy gate at the xel naga tower. So in my opinion it does not make sense to not scout early. As a result of the lack of scouting you will die to rushes. All this just to be save against 4 gate which is not that common anymore anyways.
So i was thinking about scouting after gate and keep doing this build. I rather speculate on the 4 gate beeing late or the possibility of me delaying it by some seconds than dying to rushes. Like i said i do not have too much experience with that build against 4 gate, but souldn't it be possible to deny him high ground vision, if you just position yourself at the bottom of your ramp, until he warpted in his first wave? If that would be possible you need the sentry some secondes later when he tries to walk up the ramp. That would solve the whole early scouting and then delayed sentry problem. Edit: sry i must have missed some comments. this was already mentioned some pages before.
Not sure how the timing works out with the scout after gateway. Has someone already tested that? Maybe its better to change the BO slightly (get 13 gate instead maybe?).
Another problem i was confronted with when i tested it on ladder is the gas steal. Even with the gas steal there is the possibility of an incoming 4 gate (even so its does not make that much sense imho). Maybe just get 3 gates and a lot of stuff and transition then?^^
@dtmwerks did u read the guide? Are you sure? This is like the most economic+most tech greedy build which does not die to 4 gate. And you are asking why u dont 4 gate yourself? that makes absolutely no sense at all.
On January 15 2012 17:15 GoldenH wrote: I disagree, 250+ gas to hold off a potential 4wg, that precludes making an expansion, is absolutely going to be behind someone that takes a risk or scouts that there won't be a 4wg coming, and plays greedy. You might be able to get a window where you have better tech than a 4wg player, but you're looking at like, a window where you have a +1 upgrade advantage, or one more collossus than he does, advantages that force you to make use of a timing to make the best of it. A long term tech or economy advantage needs to be larger.
Are most of your games really so close that the oppotunity cost between 2 sentries and whatever else they have is the deciding factor? I mean - don't get me wrong, I'm bad at this game - but it seems to me that most of the pro games I watch are won and lost due to reaction to harassment, angles of attack, positioning of power units, and the like and not something like "well I made 3 more stalkers and you used those resources on zealots and sentries so you're boned".
Do keep in mind that if you don't have sentries when a 4-gate hits and you didn't also 4-gate there's nothing you can really do.
On January 15 2012 17:15 GoldenH wrote: I disagree, 250+ gas to hold off a potential 4wg, that precludes making an expansion, is absolutely going to be behind someone that takes a risk or scouts that there won't be a 4wg coming, and plays greedy. You might be able to get a window where you have better tech than a 4wg player, but you're looking at like, a window where you have a +1 upgrade advantage, or one more collossus than he does, advantages that force you to make use of a timing to make the best of it. A long term tech or economy advantage needs to be larger.
I dont get your point at all. 250 gas? You get 1 sentry which u need anyways for guardian shield. Play more greedy? how? you getting your tech quite fast. You can always play greedy but then in the end and you will get punished for it because people blindly will hit timings where you are not save or even notice that you are not save and attack you. I wonder how you scout 4 gate or not 4 gate 100%? There are so many possiblities with gas cancel etc or 3 gate pressure with 2 gas that you can't scout and say "ah well lets don't build units at all"... So i dont see whats your problem. Worst case scenario your oppononent plays greedy like a noob and just builds one stalker to chase your probe away. So what? His tech will be some seconds earlier and then? its not like you loose your game because of that...
On January 16 2012 12:13 Treehead wrote: Do keep in mind that if you don't have sentries when a 4-gate hits and you didn't also 4-gate there's nothing you can really do.
Although there can be an arguement about which build is stronger and gets you in a more advantageous position in a PvP after holding off a 4 gate, he is just stating a fact. And that fact is you are using a LOT of your gas gained by your second assimilator into extra sentries that don't justify a 100-gas investment in a gas-intensive game (PvP, where everything is gas-related)
And I'm just curious, but have you tested your builds against IoRemark's 4 gate yet? I want to see if it can withstand a pressured early-game with pylons up in your face etc. etc. Thanks again for the guide :D
Sorry but i will still roflstomp you with 4 gate, mb that works on american ladder but as i read through here an agressive first zelot into stalker push will punish this very hard.
On January 16 2012 19:10 MooLen wrote: Sorry but i will still roflstomp you with 4 gate, mb that works on american ladder but as i read through here an agressive first zelot into stalker push will punish this very hard.
Although I agree that multiple sentry defenses might be cracked by early pressure, I don't see the point in bringing in ladder differences. Personally I've played on the korean servers with lag and still beating mid-high masters with a 90%+ ratio over 20 or so games. I doubt European is AS strong as you make it out to be in comparison to NA (unless of course EU is harder than KR, in which case I apologize) That being said, 4 gate still isn't the most viable strat nowadays, but again, no one so far has been able to punish alej's strategies.
That's why I encourage him to play a GM-level protoss and see if his build still survives versus a super aggressive four gate, any word on that yet? T.T If it is still safe, I'll look at bit more into these builds just to vary up my style.
On January 16 2012 12:13 Treehead wrote: Do keep in mind that if you don't have sentries when a 4-gate hits and you didn't also 4-gate there's nothing you can really do.
Although there can be an arguement about which build is stronger and gets you in a more advantageous position in a PvP after holding off a 4 gate, he is just stating a fact. And that fact is you are using a LOT of your gas gained by your second assimilator into extra sentries that don't justify a 100-gas investment in a gas-intensive game (PvP, where everything is gas-related)
And I'm just curious, but have you tested your builds against IoRemark's 4 gate yet? I want to see if it can withstand a pressured early-game with pylons up in your face etc. etc. Thanks again for the guide :D
I meant my statement with regards to how you can react to a 4-gate. Obviously if your rush hits first and is stronger, that's another story. I was commenting on greedier builds and 4-gates, not other rushes.
actually, by considering it as dead you're bringing it to life again. Cuz then people will play builds that aren't safe vs 4gate and suddenly its viable again.
On January 16 2012 12:13 Treehead wrote: Do keep in mind that if you don't have sentries when a 4-gate hits and you didn't also 4-gate there's nothing you can really do.
Although there can be an arguement about which build is stronger and gets you in a more advantageous position in a PvP after holding off a 4 gate, he is just stating a fact. And that fact is you are using a LOT of your gas gained by your second assimilator into extra sentries that don't justify a 100-gas investment in a gas-intensive game (PvP, where everything is gas-related)
And I'm just curious, but have you tested your builds against IoRemark's 4 gate yet? I want to see if it can withstand a pressured early-game with pylons up in your face etc. etc. Thanks again for the guide :D
I meant my statement with regards to how you can react to a 4-gate. Obviously if your rush hits first and is stronger, that's another story. I was commenting on greedier builds and 4-gates, not other rushes.
Er it's a 3 chrono on nexus with 2 gas that get fully saturated. How is that a rush? It actually chrono's more probes out than any of the listed 1 gate tech builds for this thread, but that's something off topic I guess. Thanks for clarifying that you meant a REACTION to four-gate though, that actually means quite a bit lol
Thanks alej, I think this is my favourite of your pvp writeups so far. =)
How important is it to have your gates close to the ramp, so your sentries spawn close enough to FF? I like to put my pylon/gates back away from the cliffs/ramp so that I am out of range of the first wave of cannons that would go up in the base. I dunno if this really matters but it makes me feel safer against cannons, and even 2gate proxy. (The strategic target of your pylon/gate is farther from their entry point/vision).
Anyway, do you think your build suffers too much from having your gates far away from the ramp? It seems like the first sentry spawn is the important one, and should be out in time.
I watched a couple of your replays and notice that you dont seem to scout much of their base. In the Antiga replay, you basically see the typical Gate/Core opening with 1 Gas, which to me could be 4Gate but could easily be anything else afterwards (3stalker, 2Gas tech build etc.). But meanwhile you were just scouting around your base with your 1zealot/1stalker for proxies, and notice their probe/1zealot/1stalker approach. So my question is, how do you work out if they are 4gating or not? Are you happy to just position your units at the ramp, and if they approach with the 1probe/1zealot/1stalker then its probably 4gate, but otherwise, happy days continue on teching.
Also in your OP, you say don't scout until 2nd pylon or Core, but how come in your Shakuras Plateau games (actually think this replay was in your other 4Gate guide, but anyhow same author ) you scout on 12Gate still?
So will all these builds work on maps with 1 ramp but no secondary ramp (e.g. Metal)?
Sorry for the billions of questions!
Edit: Don't answer my last question - just realised you already mentioned this in the guide that it works on all maps with a ramp
On January 11 2012 02:07 qwertzi wrote: am I missing something, why do you build the second gate twice? once at 29 and again at 32?
the 2 gate builds get the 2nd gate on 29, tech structure on 32 and 3rd gate on 32. 1 gate builds will get tech structure on 29, gates (2) and (3) and 32 edit: oh i saw what you were talking about and fixed it. thank you!
hey Alej, I think this same mistake is on the 2Gate Robo build as well??
On January 15 2012 17:15 GoldenH wrote: I disagree, 250+ gas to hold off a potential 4wg, that precludes making an expansion, is absolutely going to be behind someone that takes a risk or scouts that there won't be a 4wg coming, and plays greedy. You might be able to get a window where you have better tech than a 4wg player, but you're looking at like, a window where you have a +1 upgrade advantage, or one more collossus than he does, advantages that force you to make use of a timing to make the best of it. A long term tech or economy advantage needs to be larger.
Are most of your games really so close that the oppotunity cost between 2 sentries and whatever else they have is the deciding factor? I mean - don't get me wrong, I'm bad at this game - but it seems to me that most of the pro games I watch are won and lost due to reaction to harassment, angles of attack, positioning of power units, and the like and not something like "well I made 3 more stalkers and you used those resources on zealots and sentries so you're boned".
Do keep in mind that if you don't have sentries when a 4-gate hits and you didn't also 4-gate there's nothing you can really do.
Pretty much, yes. 250 gas that early is simply enormous. A tech build where you hold your ramp with zealots and cannons while spending all your gas on tech, will give you a significant late game advantage. My games are very tight because I try and get by on the bare minimum so that I have the biggest advantage later possible. If I am playing against terran or zerg losing more than 2 sentries will lose me the game, and in PVP 250 gas is basically a free nexus.
If you invest that much gas defending a 4 gate, he can just expand and catch up - and having the army advantage, you can do nothing to stop him. You absolutely must make a timing attack to make any advantage of your teching, and that makes you predictable which imo is more a handicap than the extra tech is worth.
On January 15 2012 17:15 GoldenH wrote: I disagree, 250+ gas to hold off a potential 4wg, that precludes making an expansion, is absolutely going to be behind someone that takes a risk or scouts that there won't be a 4wg coming, and plays greedy. You might be able to get a window where you have better tech than a 4wg player, but you're looking at like, a window where you have a +1 upgrade advantage, or one more collossus than he does, advantages that force you to make use of a timing to make the best of it. A long term tech or economy advantage needs to be larger.
Are most of your games really so close that the oppotunity cost between 2 sentries and whatever else they have is the deciding factor? I mean - don't get me wrong, I'm bad at this game - but it seems to me that most of the pro games I watch are won and lost due to reaction to harassment, angles of attack, positioning of power units, and the like and not something like "well I made 3 more stalkers and you used those resources on zealots and sentries so you're boned".
Do keep in mind that if you don't have sentries when a 4-gate hits and you didn't also 4-gate there's nothing you can really do.
Pretty much, yes. 250 gas that early is simply enormous. A tech build where you hold your ramp with zealots and cannons while spending all your gas on tech, will give you a significant late game advantage. My games are very tight because I try and get by on the bare minimum so that I have the biggest advantage later possible. If I am playing against terran or zerg losing more than 2 sentries will lose me the game, and in PVP 250 gas is basically a free nexus.
If you invest that much gas defending a 4 gate, he can just expand and catch up - and having the army advantage, you can do nothing to stop him. You absolutely must make a timing attack to make any advantage of your teching, and that makes you predictable which imo is more a handicap than the extra tech is worth.
Don't see where you're getting the 250 gas number from. The proposed set of builds in this thread are THE greediest builds I've seen to defend 4 gates with. Pretty much every single relatively safe PvP build gets at least one sentry. You really want that early sentry building up energy to defend from 3 gate aggression or blink pokes. You don't seem to understand that you don't make the 2nd sentry if you can rule out the possibility of 4 gates. For example, if your opponent hasn't run in with a probe plopping pylons at your ramp by 5:20-5:30, there's no need for a 2nd sentry. Next, with the relatively drop in popularity of colossi openings, sentries have become very useful in the mid-game. Gas also isn't everything in PvP anymore, especially minute differences in gas. In contrast with these builds, a forge plus cannons puts you very far behind in the early game, making it impossible to punish greed. You're basically arguing for a build that no one has EVER used in top level PvP: 1 base forge play. 1 cannon plus mass zealots doesn't even stop a 4 gate, considering you're trying to save gas anyways. At some point, you're going to warp in sentries.
Your point about counter expanding doesn't even make any sense given that your suggestion is cannons to defend 4 gate. 1-2 sentries can punish an expanding player much more than forge + cannons can.
I don't know how tight the chrono boosts/build times are for holding a 4 gate but I find that getting the 2nd assimilator first and then cutting a probe to start the zealot makes twilight and stargate openings feel smoother overall and safer against fast DTs.
Your point seems to say that sentries are amazing offensively. This is only true if you use your opponents sim city against him AND he has zealots. The sad truth is FF don't do very much at all vs. ranged units of equal range. However, that's not my biggest point with responding to your post.
You say that gas isn't everything in PvP. I agree, it is not EVERYTHING, but it is the MAJORITY of what PvP is. Why do you think you steal gas in PvP more than any other matchup? It has much more to do with annoying the other player or forcing him to do a less gas-heavy build. It's because in a protoss composition, every key unit or upgrade costs a substantial number of gas (with chargelots being the exception I guess) A faster blink, a faster obs, more immortals, more colossus, more blink stalkers, hell even DT tech or more archons / upgrades all depend on the faster gas, which is really the point of doing a 4 gate defense with TWO gas. If it wasn't that important, you might as well 4 gate him back and call it even from there...
That being said, I also don't think 250 gas is a "minute difference" in gas. Especially early game, that's a full on minutes worth of gas from 2 geysers with 6 probes mining. In a 7 minute long early game, you really only have both of your assimilators saturated for a minute or two.
Another problem I see is that on a map like Antiga or Shakuras, if your opponent takes a gas that is 30 seconds later than yours and fakes a 4 gate and expands, their sentries will FF you off the ramp all day if you try to "punish him with sentries" I can see the justification for 1 sentry as guardian shield is necessary in any matchup in almost any phase of the game, but more sentries don't justify their heavy gas cost compared to their usefulness.
On January 17 2012 14:11 SaroVati wrote: Your point seems to say that sentries are amazing offensively. This is only true if you use your opponents sim city against him AND he has zealots. The sad truth is FF don't do very much at all vs. ranged units of equal range. However, that's not my biggest point with responding to your post.
You say that gas isn't everything in PvP. I agree, it is not EVERYTHING, but it is the MAJORITY of what PvP is. Why do you think you steal gas in PvP more than any other matchup? It has much more to do with annoying the other player or forcing him to do a less gas-heavy build. It's because in a protoss composition, every key unit or upgrade costs a substantial number of gas (with chargelots being the exception I guess) A faster blink, a faster obs, more immortals, more colossus, more blink stalkers, hell even DT tech or more archons / upgrades all depend on the faster gas, which is really the point of doing a 4 gate defense with TWO gas. If it wasn't that important, you might as well 4 gate him back and call it even from there...
That being said, I also don't think 250 gas is a "minute difference" in gas. Especially early game, that's a full on minutes worth of gas from 2 geysers with 6 probes mining. In a 7 minute long early game, you really only have both of your assimilators saturated for a minute or two.
Another problem I see is that on a map like Antiga or Shakuras, if your opponent takes a gas that is 30 seconds later than yours and fakes a 4 gate and expands, their sentries will FF you off the ramp all day if you try to "punish him with sentries" I can see the justification for 1 sentry as guardian shield is necessary in any matchup in almost any phase of the game, but more sentries don't justify their heavy gas cost compared to their usefulness.
I don't know if you're responding to me, but if you are I think you're missing what I'm trying to say. I agree with what you said, but my main point was questioning this "250 gas count" this poster was referring to. And in most of my lines, I was contrasting a sentry defense with a forge defense. Obviously, I do think gas matters a lot in PvP, and 250 is a lot for PvP, but the builds the OP suggest don't sink 250 gas into nowhere. From my best guess, his 250 gas figure comes from 2 sentries and an extra stalker. And if i'm correct on that, I'll break it down like this: 1st sentry-100 gas: Every "safe" PvP build wants at least 1 sentry in the midgame for emergency forcefields. 2nd stalker-50 gas: Almost every PvP build gets at least 2 stalkers in the early game. 2nd sentry-100 gas: You don't even need this 2nd sentry unless you're being pressured.
On January 17 2012 14:11 SaroVati wrote: Your point seems to say that sentries are amazing offensively. This is only true if you use your opponents sim city against him AND he has zealots. The sad truth is FF don't do very much at all vs. ranged units of equal range. However, that's not my biggest point with responding to your post.
You say that gas isn't everything in PvP. I agree, it is not EVERYTHING, but it is the MAJORITY of what PvP is. Why do you think you steal gas in PvP more than any other matchup? It has much more to do with annoying the other player or forcing him to do a less gas-heavy build. It's because in a protoss composition, every key unit or upgrade costs a substantial number of gas (with chargelots being the exception I guess) A faster blink, a faster obs, more immortals, more colossus, more blink stalkers, hell even DT tech or more archons / upgrades all depend on the faster gas, which is really the point of doing a 4 gate defense with TWO gas. If it wasn't that important, you might as well 4 gate him back and call it even from there...
That being said, I also don't think 250 gas is a "minute difference" in gas. Especially early game, that's a full on minutes worth of gas from 2 geysers with 6 probes mining. In a 7 minute long early game, you really only have both of your assimilators saturated for a minute or two.
Another problem I see is that on a map like Antiga or Shakuras, if your opponent takes a gas that is 30 seconds later than yours and fakes a 4 gate and expands, their sentries will FF you off the ramp all day if you try to "punish him with sentries" I can see the justification for 1 sentry as guardian shield is necessary in any matchup in almost any phase of the game, but more sentries don't justify their heavy gas cost compared to their usefulness.
I don't know if you're responding to me, but if you are I think you're missing what I'm trying to say. I agree with what you said, but my main point was questioning this "250 gas count" this poster was referring to. And in most of my lines, I was contrasting a sentry defense with a forge defense. Obviously, I do think gas matters a lot in PvP, and 250 is a lot for PvP, but the builds the OP suggest don't sink 250 gas into nowhere. From my best guess, his 250 gas figure comes from 2 sentries and an extra stalker. And if i'm correct on that, I'll break it down like this: 1st sentry-100 gas: Every "safe" PvP build wants at least 1 sentry in the midgame for emergency forcefields. 2nd stalker-50 gas: Almost every PvP build gets at least 2 stalkers in the early game. 2nd sentry-100 gas: You don't even need this 2nd sentry unless you're being pressured.
yeah I was a bit confused as to the 250 exact count as well, but I believe in most of all the builds alej has (the extremes being the 1 gate stargate), he gets 3, and FOUR for the extremely "safe" version. That in my opinion is early gas that should NEVER be allocated to pure sentry use unless it's PvZ where the opponent only has melee and short-ranged units for their early-mid game. That's really my only concern with these sentry-heavy builds.
1 sentry + 2 stalkers + warp gate = 250 gas. plus maybe another sentry? As another poster noted, that is yes, a full minute of gas production; it also means things like having a nexus a full minute earlier, having an extra collosus, or being up by 2 upgrades instead of one. But everyone gets sentry + warp gate?
Sure, but this 'safe' spending of resources adds up, compare the economic advantage of a FFE against zerg or the tech advantage of double upgrades against terran; the sort of 'middle of the road' strategy advocated by the OP may allow you to tech somewhat while still defending a 4 gate; but if you do that, you have less of an advantage than simply risking that he may 4 gate you without your scouting it; so much less that I don't feel it's really an advantage at all.
On January 18 2012 01:36 GoldenH wrote: 1 sentry + 2 stalkers + warp gate = 250 gas. plus maybe another sentry? As another poster noted, that is yes, a full minute of gas production; it also means things like having a nexus a full minute earlier, having an extra collosus, or being up by 2 upgrades instead of one. But everyone gets sentry + warp gate?
Sure, but this 'safe' spending of resources adds up, compare the economic advantage of a FFE against zerg or the tech advantage of double upgrades against terran; the sort of 'middle of the road' strategy advocated by the OP may allow you to tech somewhat while still defending a 4 gate; but if you do that, you have less of an advantage than simply risking that he may 4 gate you without your scouting it; so much less that I don't feel it's really an advantage at all.
So you suggest playing PvP without warpgates, sentries, or stalkers?
On January 18 2012 01:36 GoldenH wrote: 1 sentry + 2 stalkers + warp gate = 250 gas. plus maybe another sentry? As another poster noted, that is yes, a full minute of gas production; it also means things like having a nexus a full minute earlier, having an extra collosus, or being up by 2 upgrades instead of one. But everyone gets sentry + warp gate?
Sure, but this 'safe' spending of resources adds up, compare the economic advantage of a FFE against zerg or the tech advantage of double upgrades against terran; the sort of 'middle of the road' strategy advocated by the OP may allow you to tech somewhat while still defending a 4 gate; but if you do that, you have less of an advantage than simply risking that he may 4 gate you without your scouting it; so much less that I don't feel it's really an advantage at all.
So you suggest playing PvP without warpgates, sentries, or stalkers?
On January 17 2012 14:11 SaroVati wrote: Your point seems to say that sentries are amazing offensively. This is only true if you use your opponents sim city against him AND he has zealots. The sad truth is FF don't do very much at all vs. ranged units of equal range. However, that's not my biggest point with responding to your post.
You say that gas isn't everything in PvP. I agree, it is not EVERYTHING, but it is the MAJORITY of what PvP is. Why do you think you steal gas in PvP more than any other matchup? It has much more to do with annoying the other player or forcing him to do a less gas-heavy build. It's because in a protoss composition, every key unit or upgrade costs a substantial number of gas (with chargelots being the exception I guess) A faster blink, a faster obs, more immortals, more colossus, more blink stalkers, hell even DT tech or more archons / upgrades all depend on the faster gas, which is really the point of doing a 4 gate defense with TWO gas. If it wasn't that important, you might as well 4 gate him back and call it even from there...
That being said, I also don't think 250 gas is a "minute difference" in gas. Especially early game, that's a full on minutes worth of gas from 2 geysers with 6 probes mining. In a 7 minute long early game, you really only have both of your assimilators saturated for a minute or two.
Another problem I see is that on a map like Antiga or Shakuras, if your opponent takes a gas that is 30 seconds later than yours and fakes a 4 gate and expands, their sentries will FF you off the ramp all day if you try to "punish him with sentries" I can see the justification for 1 sentry as guardian shield is necessary in any matchup in almost any phase of the game, but more sentries don't justify their heavy gas cost compared to their usefulness.
I don't know if you're responding to me, but if you are I think you're missing what I'm trying to say. I agree with what you said, but my main point was questioning this "250 gas count" this poster was referring to. And in most of my lines, I was contrasting a sentry defense with a forge defense. Obviously, I do think gas matters a lot in PvP, and 250 is a lot for PvP, but the builds the OP suggest don't sink 250 gas into nowhere. From my best guess, his 250 gas figure comes from 2 sentries and an extra stalker. And if i'm correct on that, I'll break it down like this: 1st sentry-100 gas: Every "safe" PvP build wants at least 1 sentry in the midgame for emergency forcefields. 2nd stalker-50 gas: Almost every PvP build gets at least 2 stalkers in the early game. 2nd sentry-100 gas: You don't even need this 2nd sentry unless you're being pressured.
yeah I was a bit confused as to the 250 exact count as well, but I believe in most of all the builds alej has (the extremes being the 1 gate stargate), he gets 3, and FOUR for the extremely "safe" version. That in my opinion is early gas that should NEVER be allocated to pure sentry use unless it's PvZ where the opponent only has melee and short-ranged units for their early-mid game. That's really my only concern with these sentry-heavy builds.
for the last time, you only go over 1 sentry if you see pylons. you only go over 2 if you need the 3rd ff, ie he is 4gating with those pylons.
i've never been in a situation where, if my opponent opens 4gate and i use this build to shut it down, that i cannot immediately go kill him once my blink has finished. thus to you who says that using sentries to hold 4gate will put you behind against a 4gater--whose name i will not say to save the embarrassment-- how exactly do you figure? what can some one who has been on 1 gas up until the 7 minute mark do against me when i have blink finishing off of a 1 gate twilight opener?
On January 16 2012 19:10 MooLen wrote: Sorry but i will still roflstomp you with 4 gate, mb that works on american ladder but as i read through here an agressive first zelot into stalker push will punish this very hard.
lol
thanks for your input. i'll go adapt a European version that works against better players brb
On January 18 2012 01:36 GoldenH wrote: 1 sentry + 2 stalkers + warp gate = 250 gas. plus maybe another sentry? As another poster noted, that is yes, a full minute of gas production; it also means things like having a nexus a full minute earlier, having an extra collosus, or being up by 2 upgrades instead of one. But everyone gets sentry + warp gate?
Sure, but this 'safe' spending of resources adds up, compare the economic advantage of a FFE against zerg or the tech advantage of double upgrades against terran; the sort of 'middle of the road' strategy advocated by the OP may allow you to tech somewhat while still defending a 4 gate; but if you do that, you have less of an advantage than simply risking that he may 4 gate you without your scouting it; so much less that I don't feel it's really an advantage at all.
So you suggest playing PvP without warpgates, sentries, or stalkers?
I'll bend over backwards not to build stalkers (and got to masters on this mindset), though I normally do get warpgate and a couple sentries late midgame. But sure, if you have a blink stalker build or whatever, fine, my point is more that resigning to it is the difference between accepting a timing advantage when you could have a material one.
Why would you do this on for example metalpolis? (just based on your screenshot) Ever since blizzard removed close spawns on Shattered and Metal (which is good) 2gate proxy is actually not uncommon. If you scout on 17 at the earliest you'd get crushed.
Ofc I was just basing it on the fact that you do this on metal based on the screenshot, perhaps you do not intend for it to be used on metal/shattered
On January 18 2012 07:58 GoldenH wrote: I'll bend over backwards not to build stalkers (and got to masters on this mindset), though I normally do get warpgate and a couple sentries late midgame. But sure, if you have a blink stalker build or whatever, fine, my point is more that resigning to it is the difference between accepting a timing advantage when you could have a material one.
You dont build stalkers? you dont want to waste gas on sentrys? How do you chase away the probe? How do you defend any pressure? Sentries late midgame? Are you kidding me? For what reason? To fight charglot archons or colosses?
Sometimes i wonder if some people that post here in the strategy forum play this game at all.
Some really capable members here are putting a lot of effort in helping the community out. Its really painful to see with what ignorant comments they have to deal sometimes.
On January 18 2012 07:58 GoldenH wrote: I'll bend over backwards not to build stalkers (and got to masters on this mindset), though I normally do get warpgate and a couple sentries late midgame. But sure, if you have a blink stalker build or whatever, fine, my point is more that resigning to it is the difference between accepting a timing advantage when you could have a material one.
You dont build stalkers? you dont want to waste gas on sentrys? How do you chase away the probe? How do you defend any pressure? Sentries late midgame? Are you kidding me? For what reason? To fight charglot archons or colosses?
Sometimes i wonder if some people that post here in the strategy forum play this game at all.
Some really capable members here are putting a lot of effort in helping the community out. Its really painful to see with what ignorant comments they have to deal sometimes.
I got no idea what this guy is talking about...maybe he is talking about a different game to starcraft.
Totally agree with you OrbitalPlane on the fantastic effort the experienced players put in to help others. They dont have to, they could keep their secrets to themselves and keep smashing the ladder, but they do.
Now ummm...on a completely unrelated topic Alej, could you please answer my previous questions in this thread?
If your opponent does a perfect 4 gate you will see his pylons warping in at the edge near your ramp. This is early enough because your build only deviates by 1 chrono on warpgate and warping in a sentry after that. If there are no pylons there is no need to react. Just go on with your build you will be able to hold delayed 4 gates.
In my opinion its not 100% save to scout later then after gate (except taldarim) and be save against rushes. (With the assumption that you dont have superior micro) So what you can do is the same buildorder but with an earlier scout. i think alej even mentioned that the first 2 sentry timing should not deviate with an earlier scout. I didn't had time to test the timings with an earlier scout but i think thats what i am going to do. Even if everything is delayed by some seconds you should still be able to defend 4 gates imho.
I am also thinking about not scouting the opponent at all on 2 or 3 player maps. Just watching out for proxies and then returning home. There is nothing interesting to scout in their base since you do your BO no matter what you scout.
On January 18 2012 09:20 OrbitalPlane wrote: Maybe i can help you with that, too.^^
If your opponent does a perfect 4 gate you will see his pylons warping in at the edge near your ramp. This is early enough because your build only deviates by 1 chrono on warpgate and warping in a sentry after that.
In my opinion its not 100% save to scout later then after gate (except taldarim) and be save against rushes. (With the assumption that you dont have superior micro) So what you can do his the same buildorder but with an earlier scout. i think alej even mentioned that the first 2 sentry timing should not deviate with an earlier scout. I didn't had time to test the timings with an earlier scout but i think thats what i am going to do. Even if everything is delayed by some seconds you should still be able to defend 4 gates imho.
I am also thinking about not scouting the opponent at all on 2 or 3 player maps. Just watching out for proxies and then returning home. There is nothing interesting to scout in their base since you do your BO no matter what you scout.
Thanks alot
So with these builds, we dont really deviate from it unless its for rushes, in which case just scouting around our base is enough? What about if someone does like an Adelscott 2-gate zealot build where the buildings are in his base, so you wont see any proxy pylons, but will see the relatively early zealot pressure still?
I actually faced some sort of Adelscott 2-gate zealot build when i tested this build. But it was a crazy variant, he proxied his 2 gates. I dunno if you can hold it with better micro but i was not able to. Someone else has to help you out here. That was like the first time i faced such a build in hundred of games. Probably because its kinda easy to stop if you scout it. So i guess scout or speculate that you dont face it.^^
3 stalker rush will smash any of those builds if played correctly. and its incredibly easy to transition into 4 gate from that. you just run those 3 stalkers up the ramp, kill the sentry / sentries and any other units ( or at least severly hurt them) and by that time you have 4 more stalkers walking up the ramp to kill them. quite simple. very deadly. VERY good
On January 18 2012 09:39 OrbitalPlane wrote: I actually faced some sort of Adelscott 2-gate zealot build when i tested this build. But it was a crazy variant, he proxied his 2 gates. I dunno if you can hold it with better micro but i was not able to. Someone else has to help you out here. That was like the first time i faced such a build in hundred of games. Probably because its kinda easy to stop if you scout it. So i guess scout or speculate that you dont face it.^^
On January 18 2012 09:52 jayneld wrote: 3 stalker rush will smash any of those builds if played correctly. and its incredibly easy to transition into 4 gate from that. you just run those 3 stalkers up the ramp, kill the sentry / sentries and any other units ( or at least severly hurt them) and by that time you have 4 more stalkers walking up the ramp to kill them. quite simple. very deadly. VERY good
I recently tried the 2Gate TC build in the OP, and faced a 3stalker rush. He attacked my front with 3 stalkers against my 1zealot/1sentry/2stalkers, he killed my sentry but I killed 3 stalkers with minimal micro. Thought I was safe after that so built my robo (not much resources after that for more units).
Little did I know, he took an early Twilight as well straight after the 3stalkers, it was earlier than my Twilight cos I did the 2gate variant where it comes on 32 supply.
I thought I had an advantage, walked my stalkers up and got ambushed by an earlier blink opponent. Lost right there.
So it seems that 3stalker into quick tech is something to be wary of. As this guy said, its possible they can change to 4gate as well.
K, managed to get back on bnet after busy weekend and did some 11 gate practice. First thing I was reminded of is that my micro blows =D
I'll hit you up sometime to test sentry timings, though. I think you can hold it with good micro, as the second stalker shows up much later than I had imagined.
On January 18 2012 09:52 jayneld wrote: 3 stalker rush will smash any of those builds if played correctly. and its incredibly easy to transition into 4 gate from that. you just run those 3 stalkers up the ramp, kill the sentry / sentries and any other units ( or at least severly hurt them) and by that time you have 4 more stalkers walking up the ramp to kill them. quite simple. very deadly. VERY good
I recently tried the 2Gate TC build in the OP, and faced a 3stalker rush. He attacked my front with 3 stalkers against my 1zealot/1sentry/2stalkers, he killed my sentry but I killed 3 stalkers with minimal micro. Thought I was safe after that so built my robo (not much resources after that for more units).
Little did I know, he took an early Twilight as well straight after the 3stalkers, it was earlier than my Twilight cos I did the 2gate variant where it comes on 32 supply.
I thought I had an advantage, walked my stalkers up and got ambushed by an earlier blink opponent. Lost right there.
So it seems that 3stalker into quick tech is something to be wary of. As this guy said, its possible they can change to 4gate as well.
Any tips on how to handle these type of openings?
never move out unless you have blink. i've found that against 3 stalkers, you will have your sentry out by the time they reach your ramp so pull back up the ramp as the sentry comes out as usual. then block the ramp with your 2 stalkers with the zealot in front. he shouldn't be able to come up and snipe the sentry because of vision. if you lose the sentry, i recommend replacing it even if you don't see pylons. a 4gate that warps in away from your ramp can barrel up at any time even if you've scouted 2 gases.
if they are pure blink, you can keep it from doing anything to you with ff's until you feel safe with an immortal and some gw support, or have your own blink and coast on the defenders advantage, as he has to funnel through your ramp to get vision meanwhile taking damage from any zealots you have. blink robo can't hurt you as long as you don't get greedy with your wg cool downs and your micro is somewhat correct.
You think 4 gate is dead? I've found that if you send your first zealot and stalkers up their ramp right before the sentry comes out you can kill it. Then you will have warpgate before him, and you just simply warp in some units, build a pylon in his base, and kill him.
Note that you will have your 1st force field ready regardless. This also implies that you really need the reactionary 4th chronoboost on WG as noted in each build to guarantee that your 2nd forcefield will be ready in time for the second warp-in, and to guarantee subsequent timely force fields as well. + Show Spoiler +
I did not think that I had to include this in the original OP, but a small group of people are taking this for granted and coloring me a jobber.
You should be able to delay these timings slightly, as you will have 1z2s vs. your opponent's 1z1s1probe on the approach. Use your units to zone the approach and then snipe the probe in an attempt to stall the pylons from starting and begin focusing them down as early as possible. Don't chase his stalker or his probe with your zealot; put him on one of the pylons if you've killed the zealot already. This will also test your opponent's multitasking as he tries to make a good approach while hitting all of his chronoboosts. A good player will still be able to nearly hit these timings regardless, however.
;
2b. If you want to do this build on a map where you must gateway scout to check for proxy gates, such as Shakuras Plateau, Arid Plateau, and Xel'Naga Caverns, your timings will be just slightly delayed. I cannot guarantee that you will get your 2nd and 3rd forcefields ready in time to hold a 4gate, but I'm not convinced that doing so is absolutely impossible. On Shakuras, you are aided by the ramp at the natural so you shouldn't have a problem shutting the rush down on the approach with the vision/zoning advantage you have.
On January 20 2012 04:16 Havik_ wrote: 4 gate is dead? Yeah right! Its alive and well. I'm just practicing mine and refining it more and more.
You can only refine it so much. Day9 found a way to stop 4 gate before nerfs to WG time and pylons warping up ramp. 4 gate is dead, apart from on Tal'Darim.
way to choose a title that will cause uneducated blabber and argument amongst the boobs of diamond and below that feel that their opinions are important (let alone correct). You cause me so much pain as a coach lol T-T
On January 21 2012 11:58 NrGmonk wrote: I think feast did this build versus Hero 3 times in his games from IEM Kiev and held off one of Hero's 4 gates.
hadn't had a chance to watch IEM but I will watch this!
So er I understand you're very busy, but still up for those games to test out your builds? You haven't messaged me all week and I don't know your character code My info is posted on the page before, thanks!
On January 21 2012 14:02 SaroVati wrote: So er I understand you're very busy, but still up for those games to test out your builds? You haven't messaged me all week and I don't know your character code My info is posted on the page before, thanks!
I wouldnt say that 4 gate is dead, if a protoss is quite greedy switching to 4 gate and chroning warp gate can really put the hurt on when executing it.
I wouldnt say 4 gate is dead ... id say its dying but not dead,
at the moment im loving doing early pressure builds into a very fast expansion following it with an immortal/blink timing push.
Havent decided the follow up after that because well the immortal/blink pushes seem to be working very very well. I'd say Chargelots worry me the most.
4 gate isn't dead because I said it is. It's dead to you if you read the op and find that you can stop it with 1gate or 2gate tech builds. + Show Spoiler +
I tried this versus a 12 gate 4 gate that chronos the first stalker and sends 2 probes in exchange for a later warpin. I'm told Puzzle does this version a lot. And I have to say on maps without chokes or a ramp in your natural, this is very hard to hold. Every time, I've either mismicroed and let a probe up my ramp or lost the initial battle where I'm busy killing probes while my opponent hits with zealot/stalker/stalker when my sentry comes out mid-battle. I'm sure it's possible to hold, but it seems like it requires a lot of practice.
On January 22 2012 08:13 Alejandrisha wrote: 4 gate isn't dead because I said it is. It's dead to you if you read the op and find that you can stop it with 1gate or 2gate tech builds. + Show Spoiler +
On January 24 2012 20:17 NrGmonk wrote: I tried this versus a 12 gate 4 gate that chronos the first stalker and sends 2 probes in exchange for a later warpin. I'm told Puzzle does this version a lot. And I have to say on maps without chokes or a ramp in your natural, this is very hard to hold. Every time, I've either mismicroed and let a probe up my ramp or lost the initial battle where I'm busy killing probes while my opponent hits with zealot/stalker/stalker when my sentry comes out mid-battle. I'm sure it's possible to hold, but it seems like it requires a lot of practice.
a lot of practice and a lot of stupid losses ^^ when you get it down it's quite rewarding to hold it off with 1 gate though :D I recommend having a buddy with good enough 4gate timing to do the 2 probe variant over and over again on XNC. The approach is the easiest to execute and hardest to hold off there. If you can hold it off consistently there, then you'll never lose to it again !
On January 25 2012 11:40 SLenDeRlol wrote: wow thanks for this. Just learned the council builds. Gunna have some fun on the ladder.
you're relying on 1z2s to defend early pokes with probe and then relying on ff on ramp to defend.. won't work so well with no ramp! so not 4gating is taking a big big risk here
On January 25 2012 11:40 SLenDeRlol wrote: wow thanks for this. Just learned the council builds. Gunna have some fun on the ladder.
you're relying on 1z2s to defend early pokes with probe and then relying on ff on ramp to defend.. won't work so well with no ramp! so not 4gating is taking a big big risk here
I'm assuming you're responding to me, since I asked about TDA, but are there non-4gate builds that can hold 4gate on that map like 3 gate into tech or w.e? or fast immortal? just wondering.
On January 25 2012 11:40 SLenDeRlol wrote: wow thanks for this. Just learned the council builds. Gunna have some fun on the ladder.
you're relying on 1z2s to defend early pokes with probe and then relying on ff on ramp to defend.. won't work so well with no ramp! so not 4gating is taking a big big risk here
I'm assuming you're responding to me, since I asked about TDA, but are there non-4gate builds that can hold 4gate on that map like 3 gate into tech or w.e? or fast immortal? just wondering.
There are certain 3 gates that can defend a 4 gate on TDA, but you will always have to rely on superior micro, so if micro isn't your forte I don't recommend anything but 4 gates on that map. If you are still wondering what builds can hold (or just too lazy to hit the search ) just reply and I'll link you These builds definitely can't hold a 4 gate on TDA though, 100%
On January 25 2012 11:40 SLenDeRlol wrote: wow thanks for this. Just learned the council builds. Gunna have some fun on the ladder.
I'm replying to my first comment to ask for some help. When I do my 2 gate council build idk if I'm supposed to work in a robo after I start blink but I do to put aggression on my opponents. And if they do a robo build I always lose the game. Can you just quickly type up a way to play the council builds after I have blink and obs vs. robo builds? I'm really sick of losing )':
On January 25 2012 11:40 SLenDeRlol wrote: wow thanks for this. Just learned the council builds. Gunna have some fun on the ladder.
I'm replying to my first comment to ask for some help. When I do my 2 gate council build idk if I'm supposed to work in a robo after I start blink but I do to put aggression on my opponents. And if they do a robo build I always lose the game. Can you just quickly type up a way to play the council builds after I have blink and obs vs. robo builds? I'm really sick of losing )':
expand while threatening a blink into a base race, while teching to chargelot/archon
On January 25 2012 11:40 SLenDeRlol wrote: wow thanks for this. Just learned the council builds. Gunna have some fun on the ladder.
I'm replying to my first comment to ask for some help. When I do my 2 gate council build idk if I'm supposed to work in a robo after I start blink but I do to put aggression on my opponents. And if they do a robo build I always lose the game. Can you just quickly type up a way to play the council builds after I have blink and obs vs. robo builds? I'm really sick of losing )':
On January 25 2012 11:40 SLenDeRlol wrote: wow thanks for this. Just learned the council builds. Gunna have some fun on the ladder.
you're relying on 1z2s to defend early pokes with probe and then relying on ff on ramp to defend.. won't work so well with no ramp! so not 4gating is taking a big big risk here
I'm assuming you're responding to me, since I asked about TDA, but are there non-4gate builds that can hold 4gate on that map like 3 gate into tech or w.e? or fast immortal? just wondering.
There are certain 3 gates that can defend a 4 gate on TDA, but you will always have to rely on superior micro, so if micro isn't your forte I don't recommend anything but 4 gates on that map. If you are still wondering what builds can hold (or just too lazy to hit the search ) just reply and I'll link you These builds definitely can't hold a 4 gate on TDA though, 100%
aye; you can do 3 gate builds, but if you get 4gated, it's reckless to believe you ought to win that. you do the 3gate builds because you think your opponent won't 4gate you aggressively. you count on him 4gating defensively and then you outproducing him in between the time he finds out you didn't 4gate and the time it takes him to drag his ass across the map. or that he's not going to 4g you.. not shrewd assumption here
On January 25 2012 11:40 SLenDeRlol wrote: wow thanks for this. Just learned the council builds. Gunna have some fun on the ladder.
you're relying on 1z2s to defend early pokes with probe and then relying on ff on ramp to defend.. won't work so well with no ramp! so not 4gating is taking a big big risk here
I'm assuming you're responding to me, since I asked about TDA, but are there non-4gate builds that can hold 4gate on that map like 3 gate into tech or w.e? or fast immortal? just wondering.
There are certain 3 gates that can defend a 4 gate on TDA, but you will always have to rely on superior micro, so if micro isn't your forte I don't recommend anything but 4 gates on that map. If you are still wondering what builds can hold (or just too lazy to hit the search ) just reply and I'll link you These builds definitely can't hold a 4 gate on TDA though, 100%
aye; you can do 3 gate builds, but if you get 4gated, it's reckless to believe you ought to win that. you do the 3gate builds because you think your opponent won't 4gate you aggressively. you count on him 4gating defensively and then you outproducing him in between the time he finds out you didn't 4gate and the time it takes him to drag his ass across the map. or that he's not going to 4g you.. not shrewd assumption here
I can guarantee you I will defend your 4 with my 3. I have an entire guide based on it and have beaten top NA AND KR pros with it. I also beat kcdc on ladder yesterday with it when he tried your stargate build. This is why I wanted to practice a few games with you to play the most experienced person with the build but sadly we haven't played yet here is a link in case you can't find it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292003
On January 18 2012 09:39 OrbitalPlane wrote: I actually faced some sort of Adelscott 2-gate zealot build when i tested this build. But it was a crazy variant, he proxied his 2 gates. I dunno if you can hold it with better micro but i was not able to. Someone else has to help you out here. That was like the first time i faced such a build in hundred of games. Probably because its kinda easy to stop if you scout it. So i guess scout or speculate that you dont face it.^^
Would like to bump this question cause I asked a similar one in the Protoss help me thread!
I faced a Adelscott 2-gate zealot build on Antiga, I scouted on 17 Core, and was unlucky by scouting him last. By this point, I had 1 zealot and almost 1 stalker ready. He had 3zealots at my door, another 2 coming in shortly --> so total 5zealots. He uses 3zealots against my 1zealot and probe line, and im busy microing my stalker against his other 2 zealots.
I chrono another stalker, but as the zealots stream in, my 2 stalkers DPS is not enough to hold off pressure AND defend my mineral line.
So would really like to know if there is a more conservative 9-pylon scout or 12-gate scout variant of these builds?? thanks!
On January 18 2012 09:39 OrbitalPlane wrote: I actually faced some sort of Adelscott 2-gate zealot build when i tested this build. But it was a crazy variant, he proxied his 2 gates. I dunno if you can hold it with better micro but i was not able to. Someone else has to help you out here. That was like the first time i faced such a build in hundred of games. Probably because its kinda easy to stop if you scout it. So i guess scout or speculate that you dont face it.^^
Would like to bump this question cause I asked a similar one in the Protoss help me thread!
I faced a Adelscott 2-gate zealot build on Antiga, I scouted on 17 Core, and was unlucky by scouting him last. By this point, I had 1 zealot and almost 1 stalker ready. He had 3zealots at my door, another 2 coming in shortly --> so total 5zealots. He uses 3zealots against my 1zealot and probe line, and im busy microing my stalker against his other 2 zealots.
I chrono another stalker, but as the zealots stream in, my 2 stalkers DPS is not enough to hold off pressure AND defend my mineral line.
So would really like to know if there is a more conservative 9-pylon scout or 12-gate scout variant of these builds?? thanks!
there is! 12 scout; the only differences will be you get zealot on 18 not 17 you get 2nd gas on 21 not 20 you get 3rd pylon on 25 not 24 ezpz!
On January 18 2012 09:39 OrbitalPlane wrote: I actually faced some sort of Adelscott 2-gate zealot build when i tested this build. But it was a crazy variant, he proxied his 2 gates. I dunno if you can hold it with better micro but i was not able to. Someone else has to help you out here. That was like the first time i faced such a build in hundred of games. Probably because its kinda easy to stop if you scout it. So i guess scout or speculate that you dont face it.^^
Would like to bump this question cause I asked a similar one in the Protoss help me thread!
I faced a Adelscott 2-gate zealot build on Antiga, I scouted on 17 Core, and was unlucky by scouting him last. By this point, I had 1 zealot and almost 1 stalker ready. He had 3zealots at my door, another 2 coming in shortly --> so total 5zealots. He uses 3zealots against my 1zealot and probe line, and im busy microing my stalker against his other 2 zealots.
I chrono another stalker, but as the zealots stream in, my 2 stalkers DPS is not enough to hold off pressure AND defend my mineral line.
So would really like to know if there is a more conservative 9-pylon scout or 12-gate scout variant of these builds?? thanks!
there is! 12 scout; the only differences will be you get zealot on 18 not 17 you get 2nd gas on 21 not 20 you get 3rd pylon on 25 not 24 ezpz!
lol wasn't expecting such a clear answer
so a 12 scout will spot Adelscot builds in time even if you scout them last on big maps like Antiga?? I dont know how long the timing is but I was originally thinking you needed 9pylon scout on big maps??
On January 18 2012 09:39 OrbitalPlane wrote: I actually faced some sort of Adelscott 2-gate zealot build when i tested this build. But it was a crazy variant, he proxied his 2 gates. I dunno if you can hold it with better micro but i was not able to. Someone else has to help you out here. That was like the first time i faced such a build in hundred of games. Probably because its kinda easy to stop if you scout it. So i guess scout or speculate that you dont face it.^^
Would like to bump this question cause I asked a similar one in the Protoss help me thread!
I faced a Adelscott 2-gate zealot build on Antiga, I scouted on 17 Core, and was unlucky by scouting him last. By this point, I had 1 zealot and almost 1 stalker ready. He had 3zealots at my door, another 2 coming in shortly --> so total 5zealots. He uses 3zealots against my 1zealot and probe line, and im busy microing my stalker against his other 2 zealots.
I chrono another stalker, but as the zealots stream in, my 2 stalkers DPS is not enough to hold off pressure AND defend my mineral line.
So would really like to know if there is a more conservative 9-pylon scout or 12-gate scout variant of these builds?? thanks!
there is! 12 scout; the only differences will be you get zealot on 18 not 17 you get 2nd gas on 21 not 20 you get 3rd pylon on 25 not 24 ezpz!
lol wasn't expecting such a clear answer
so a 12 scout will spot Adelscot builds in time even if you scout them last on big maps like Antiga?? I dont know how long the timing is but I was originally thinking you needed 9pylon scout on big maps??
nah show me a rep of such a thing and i can be a bit more specific. i haven't seen a protoss go gate-gate core in at least 8 months so i might need to check this out O_O
4 gate would seem to be dead through theorycrafting and build orders developed but im pretty sure ogsvines 4 gates over 50% of his PvP games in the NA ladder and is like 120-30 or something along those lines
On January 31 2012 01:06 Fierytycoon wrote: 4 gate would seem to be dead through theorycrafting and build orders developed but im pretty sure ogsvines 4 gates over 50% of his PvP games in the NA ladder and is like 120-30 or something along those lines
Wrong I played him yesterday for 12 points and he did a 1 gate blink rush by only getting 1 zealot and 1 stalker, and praying to god I didn't pressure him or else he would have died. It did result in a 7:00 minute blink though which is pretty impressive
On January 31 2012 01:06 Fierytycoon wrote: 4 gate would seem to be dead through theorycrafting and build orders developed but im pretty sure ogsvines 4 gates over 50% of his PvP games in the NA ladder and is like 120-30 or something along those lines
Wrong I played him yesterday for 12 points and he did a 1 gate blink rush by only getting 1 zealot and 1 stalker, and praying to god I didn't pressure him or else he would have died. It did result in a 7:00 minute blink though which is pretty impressive
On January 31 2012 01:06 Fierytycoon wrote: 4 gate would seem to be dead through theorycrafting and build orders developed but im pretty sure ogsvines 4 gates over 50% of his PvP games in the NA ladder and is like 120-30 or something along those lines
Wrong I played him yesterday for 12 points and he did a 1 gate blink rush by only getting 1 zealot and 1 stalker, and praying to god I didn't pressure him or else he would have died. It did result in a 7:00 minute blink though which is pretty impressive
What you said doesn't make what he said wrong
It really does because I've played 4-5 games with him over the past 3 days on ladder and he's never 4 gated me, usually always the blink rush or he goes 1 gate robo --> colossus on a really low unit count as well.
On January 31 2012 01:06 Fierytycoon wrote: 4 gate would seem to be dead through theorycrafting and build orders developed but im pretty sure ogsvines 4 gates over 50% of his PvP games in the NA ladder and is like 120-30 or something along those lines
Wrong I played him yesterday for 12 points and he did a 1 gate blink rush by only getting 1 zealot and 1 stalker, and praying to god I didn't pressure him or else he would have died. It did result in a 7:00 minute blink though which is pretty impressive
What you said doesn't make what he said wrong
It really does because I've played 4-5 games with him over the past 3 days on ladder and he's never 4 gated me, usually always the blink rush or he goes 1 gate robo --> colossus on a really low unit count as well.
With that extra information, maybe it does. Before you said "because he didn't 4 gate me once, that for sure means he doesn't 4 gate a lot", which I'm sure you appreciate is a bit of a fallacy
On January 31 2012 01:06 Fierytycoon wrote: 4 gate would seem to be dead through theorycrafting and build orders developed but im pretty sure ogsvines 4 gates over 50% of his PvP games in the NA ladder and is like 120-30 or something along those lines
Wrong I played him yesterday for 12 points and he did a 1 gate blink rush by only getting 1 zealot and 1 stalker, and praying to god I didn't pressure him or else he would have died. It did result in a 7:00 minute blink though which is pretty impressive
What you said doesn't make what he said wrong
It really does because I've played 4-5 games with him over the past 3 days on ladder and he's never 4 gated me, usually always the blink rush or he goes 1 gate robo --> colossus on a really low unit count as well.
With that extra information, maybe it does. Before you said "because he didn't 4 gate me once, that for sure means he doesn't 4 gate a lot", which I'm sure you appreciate is a bit of a fallacy
Ah okay I apologize for the misleading comment Sorry for the misunderstanding haha But yeah he doesn't always 4 gate, at least from my experience with him on ladder, but I don't doubt that he has the ability to 4 gate and win still
On January 31 2012 01:55 marvellosity wrote: From the sounds of it, clearly you should be 4-gating *him* :D
Ah but the huge pressure he attempts to apply with his first zealot stalker and probe is amazing. I was just lucky a few games where my scouting probe managed to slip by his stalker scout and discover his fast tech. He manages to sell his 4 gate really well, and if you are doing some sort of tech build you will definitely lose to the ridiculous speed of his tech
On January 31 2012 01:55 marvellosity wrote: From the sounds of it, clearly you should be 4-gating *him* :D
Ah but the huge pressure he attempts to apply with his first zealot stalker and probe is amazing. I was just lucky a few games where my scouting probe managed to slip by his stalker scout and discover his fast tech. He manages to sell his 4 gate really well, and if you are doing some sort of tech build you will definitely lose to the ridiculous speed of his tech
Sounds like a great way to play. Alas, I fear my APM/multi-tasking couldn't pull it off.
I love the 1 Gate -> Twilight build! I've never come across early aggression I can't hold with it I'm only in platinum though so I don't think anyone executes a crisp 4gate. If anyone comes with the intent of killing me, I have lots of time to get a reasonable amount of sentries up. If they camp outside my base or try to contain me, blink stalker sneakyness into their base and win Thanks Alej!
On February 03 2012 04:20 Zawmb wrote: I love the 1 Gate -> Twilight build! I've never come across early aggression I can't hold with it I'm only in platinum though so I don't think anyone executes a crisp 4gate. If anyone comes with the intent of killing me, I have lots of time to get a reasonable amount of sentries up. If they camp outside my base or try to contain me, blink stalker sneakyness into their base and win Thanks Alej!
glad to hear you are having success with it! thx for the note
ugh does this build assume chronos? I play Z and am trying to learn a PvP build and if you don't assume 1-2 chronos early on you're just sitting on 100 energy for so long... why don't protoss players explain CB use more explicitly
On February 03 2012 10:03 Vei wrote: ugh does this build assume chronos? I play Z and am trying to learn a PvP build and if you don't assume 1-2 chronos early on you're just sitting on 100 energy for so long... why don't protoss players explain CB use more explicitly
Unless you are VERY aggressively 4 gating first two chronos always goes to probes. He explicitly states the next 3 cbs go to warpgate tech, then 1 to your 2nd stalker, then a 4th you your WG tech again. This is very important.
Im high diamond and doing the PvP 11gate into 3gate pressure build most of the time. And I still win most of the games vs 1/2 gate builds. Either they let me up the ramp and just die, or they freak out a little and build to many sentries/gateways or something so I dont get behind and can follow up my 3 gates with tech/expansion.
Alej - have you done more testing against the 11 gate build? Any conclusions? I imagine my diamond/low master opponents dont have their builds perfected, but my 11 gate isnt that perfect either most of the time...
Actually, I mostly die early to wierd cannonrushes or proxies due to my late scout these days. For me, the 11 gate handle 1/2/4 gate builds pretty darn good.
(This could kinda be discussed both here and in the 11 gate thread ^^)
On February 04 2012 09:40 Average Joe wrote: Thank you for the guide. Just one general question. When you have timings are those based upon actual times or are they based on the in game clock?
Thx for this post now i will try to stop 4gate with my normal 1gate blink play. I have always gone for a 1gate robo if i scouted 4gate. with this build you win 100% of incoming 4gates.
I personally feel that the 4 gate will never be dead until there is a detector built into the game that automatically causes a forfeit for a player who cuts probes, builds 4 gates and dumps all chrono on warp gates.
My reasoning is thus: similar to the 1/1/1, the player holding the 4 gate needs to play much better and much more on point than the 4 gater. Gold players will always be able to take games from platinum players with a 4 gate, in diamond I regularly win against masters with it. Is this because I am the better player? Very far from it, I am pritty bad. But in order to pull off this build or something like it and make it 4 gate proof, my opponents need to be playing much better than me.
I'm pretty sure from the games I've seen 4 gate is still very effective at breaking fast twilight builds at mid masters and below, and probably still happens from time to time at high masters. It might not happen at the pro level but the pro level isn't the only thing that matters in this community.
On February 05 2012 11:01 Mormagil wrote: I personally feel that the 4 gate will never be dead until there is a detector built into the game that automatically causes a forfeit for a player who cuts probes, builds 4 gates and dumps all chrono on warp gates.
My reasoning is thus: similar to the 1/1/1, the player holding the 4 gate needs to play much better and much more on point than the 4 gater. Gold players will always be able to take games from platinum players with a 4 gate, in diamond I regularly win against masters with it. Is this because I am the better player? Very far from it, I am pritty bad. But in order to pull off this build or something like it and make it 4 gate proof, my opponents need to be playing much better than me.
I understand wat ur saying but this isn't quite true. 4gate is still strong and can punish mistakes really well, however u can hold 4gate with most builds as long as u play really cleanly and don't make mistakes with ur build order. You don't necessarily have to play much better, there's just less margin for error.
Here's another vod of StartaleParting doing this build: http://fr.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/306767555?t=104m34s What I like most about this game is that Parting recognized his opponent's 2 gate pressure and didn't get a 2nd sentry in response.
Maybe add this vod and the previous vod I linked of Feast vs Hero in your OP? I think it would give this more credibility and encourage more people to try it.
On February 07 2012 17:37 NrGmonk wrote: Here's another vod of StartaleParting doing this build: http://fr.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/306767555?t=104m34s What I like most about this game is that Parting recognized his opponent's 2 gate pressure and didn't get a 2nd sentry in response.
Maybe add this vod and the previous vod I linked of Feast vs Hero in your OP? I think it would give this more credibility and encourage more people to try it.
That was really convincing. Parting even had the worlds most terrible offensive Blink when he first came up to the Nexus.
On February 17 2012 18:32 Mairou wrote: 4gate is dead, but not on taldarim altar. Do you know any good builds for that map ?
no that map sucks for pvp. i veto tda just because of pvp. no point in playing pvp there. total coin flippage all around. winning 100 games on that map and losing none is like kissing your sister.
I don't know if it's me being bad or executing the build wrong or there's a typing error, but i don't think the 1gate robo build holds a 4gate because going robo before sentry means there's no way you will get it out by 5.20 ish.
On March 08 2012 23:20 Teoita wrote: I don't know if it's me being bad or executing the build wrong or there's a typing error, but i don't think the 1gate robo build holds a 4gate because going robo before sentry means there's no way you will get it out by 5.20 ish.
Having some trouble with this build against 4gates. In the OP you say after the 4th sentry the 4gate is over, but this just is not true. Some people will keep forcing up your ramp. And 2 stalkers and 4 sentries just doesn't kill fast enough to stop the 4gate from killing your 3gates if you ever let them up the ramp. So you need at least 6 sentries to stop the 4gate from ever getting up your ramp. Which is fine, but because you have invested so much in sentries you can't actually ever engage them until you have really pushed ahead in either economy or tech, which in turn gives them enough time to tech or expand.
Do you have any replays of how this is actually supposed to work against people who 4gate and just keep pushing against the ramp until you have enough sentrys to chain FF forever?
On March 13 2012 04:17 Westy wrote: Having some trouble with this build against 4gates. In the OP you say after the 4th sentry the 4gate is over, but this just is not true. Some people will keep forcing up your ramp. And 2 stalkers and 4 sentries just doesn't kill fast enough to stop the 4gate from killing your 3gates if you ever let them up the ramp. So you need at least 6 sentries to stop the 4gate from ever getting up your ramp. Which is fine, but because you have invested so much in sentries you can't actually ever engage them until you have really pushed ahead in either economy or tech, which in turn gives them enough time to tech or expand.
Do you have any replays of how this is actually supposed to work against people who 4gate and just keep pushing against the ramp until you have enough sentrys to chain FF forever?
Thanks
if as soon as u realize its a 4 gate (about 5:30 or so) you add 1 or even 2 gates because your money will get high due to the fact that ur warping in sentry only, u will be able to afford zealot warpins and sentries then by the time and you should be able to start killing units with ff once u hit a decent ammount of units yourself so even though eventually u run out of ff he loses chunks of army every time he goes up. Maybe even doing the same concept but instead of gates add forge and cannon or 2 near ramp so that u can use these to make him back off(this would be a good idea with stargate builds). If ur going robo you should be able to get immortal and delay with ff until then. With blink I think alej expains how to get blink and get enough units to hold till then because twilight is cheapest tech building.
I win about 80% of the time with 4gate still in pvp, last season was around 950 points in masters. Same applies this season. I wouldn't say it's dead on ladder at all.
Great guide, maybe I'll start following your advice and try to do these builds. But I do not really have a problem with 4gate on ladder, as I do not face that build like 95% of the time. On the other hand, it is more often me who is executing the 4gate, and winning :D I am aware that it is cheesy, but PvP is just so hard if the game goes on for too long. I do not always 4gate though; I also go 3gate robo, 3 stalker rush, stargate etc, it is just that I find so much success with the 4gate build that I use if frequently.
On March 13 2012 04:17 Westy wrote: Having some trouble with this build against 4gates. In the OP you say after the 4th sentry the 4gate is over, but this just is not true. Some people will keep forcing up your ramp. And 2 stalkers and 4 sentries just doesn't kill fast enough to stop the 4gate from killing your 3gates if you ever let them up the ramp. So you need at least 6 sentries to stop the 4gate from ever getting up your ramp. Which is fine, but because you have invested so much in sentries you can't actually ever engage them until you have really pushed ahead in either economy or tech, which in turn gives them enough time to tech or expand.
Do you have any replays of how this is actually supposed to work against people who 4gate and just keep pushing against the ramp until you have enough sentrys to chain FF forever?
Thanks
http://drop.sc/136035 i think this is something like what you're talking bout edit: http://drop.sc/136025 this too! let me know if they are totally wrong and i'll go back to lookin
Don't you need the Sentry energy only until your Immortal comes out? Also yeah, my mechanics must suck (I have a Gold rank, so go figure) but I can never get the 1st Sentry out by 5.20 ish. My first one is usually out by about 5.40 ish. I have held 4 gates before with that timing doing the 1 Gate Robo - but clearly they were never against an optimal 4 Gate. I drop the chrono on the Sentry though, rather than the second Stalker but I am not clear as how that would make a difference.
On March 21 2012 09:36 aZealot wrote: Don't you need the Sentry energy only until your Immortal comes out? Also yeah, my mechanics must suck (I have a Gold rank, so go figure) but I can never get the 1st Sentry out by 5.20 ish. My first one is usually out by about 5.40 ish. I have held 4 gates before with that timing doing the 1 Gate Robo - but clearly they were never against an optimal 4 Gate. I drop the chrono on the Sentry though, rather than the second Stalker but I am not clear as how that would make a difference.
you're just using your 4th 'safety chrono' that would normally needed to be put on your CyCore if you were being hardcore 4gated.
You're correct in that at your level no one probably has the hardcore 4gate tight enough to make that 4th cb matter for you.
On March 13 2012 04:17 Westy wrote: Having some trouble with this build against 4gates. In the OP you say after the 4th sentry the 4gate is over, but this just is not true. Some people will keep forcing up your ramp. And 2 stalkers and 4 sentries just doesn't kill fast enough to stop the 4gate from killing your 3gates if you ever let them up the ramp. So you need at least 6 sentries to stop the 4gate from ever getting up your ramp. Which is fine, but because you have invested so much in sentries you can't actually ever engage them until you have really pushed ahead in either economy or tech, which in turn gives them enough time to tech or expand.
Do you have any replays of how this is actually supposed to work against people who 4gate and just keep pushing against the ramp until you have enough sentrys to chain FF forever?
Thanks
http://drop.sc/136035 i think this is something like what you're talking bout edit: http://drop.sc/136025 this too! let me know if they are totally wrong and i'll go back to lookin
Not exactly. In the first one he was stupid to actually go up the ramp after you had your cannon up, in the second one the 4gate came so late you already had your tech out. I can hold the 4gate, but by doing so I invest so much gas into sentries that my tech is delayed, and my army is very weak. He can keep pressuring my ramp while taking his second gas and teching or while expanding. Once I have enough to actually let him get some units up my ramp, he can just fall back and play defensive with superior tech, army and economy. And as the game goes on those 5/6 sentries become even more detrimental as they end up playing almost no part in any engagements once he gets archons/collosus.
On March 13 2012 06:43 IrOnKaL wrote: I win about 80% of the time with 4gate still in pvp, last season was around 950 points in masters. Same applies this season. I wouldn't say it's dead on ladder at all.
Came back here to say just this, im not mid/high masters myself (yet) but even pro players have shown that they cannot defend simple 4gates, even ones with small execution errors not made by people in low/mid masters with practiced 4gates, i doubt it will ever be out of the standard range on ladder because so many have proven that they are all too willing to take economic/tech risks and play in greedy coinflippy ways, especially those below like mid masters who seem to have no idea what they can and cant do, and (as it seems to have come up from all of the bad "focus on 1 BO per matchup" advice) will go 3gate robo every game, often in an overly greedy or flawed way
Plat toss here. I've been 4gating for the last days in my PvP, with a great deal of success, after losing to it several times. The problem with plat-level tosses (and I'm fairly confident this extends at least to diamond if not to master), is that they rarely have proper ff control. More often than not, FFs will be badly placed and / or overlapped, resulting in insufficient sentry energy for constant ramp FF. I believe the concepts in this thread are awesome indeed, but only for players with good control. For me, as well as most other players of my level, holding a 4gate by pure [FF] skill is too difficult. It's a lot easier to go 4g until we improve apm / FF usage.
On April 09 2012 18:43 moQbara wrote: Plat toss here. I've been 4gating for the last days in my PvP, with a great deal of success, after losing to it several times. The problem with plat-level tosses (and I'm fairly confident this extends at least to diamond if not to master), is that they rarely have proper ff control. More often than not, FFs will be badly placed and / or overlapped, resulting in insufficient sentry energy for constant ramp FF. I believe the concepts in this thread are awesome indeed, but only for players with good control. For me, as well as most other players of my level, holding a 4gate by pure [FF] skill is too difficult. It's a lot easier to go 4g until we improve apm / FF usage.
Yes-- unless you can reliably get the first sentry out by 5:35 I advise against using the 1gate openers here. also here is a replay pack of my s6 pvp games, mostly 1g SG. will add to op http://drop.sc/packs/681
On April 18 2012 00:58 tehemperorer wrote: Great read I came back here to get my head straight from using Saro Vati's PvP build with the 5-8 stalkers (it's not that efficient, but thanks SV!)
Thanks Alej, high five.
Edit: Bison vs Bison or PvP, which is worse?
Glad to see people trying it still though it is all up to preference though, and people should definately learn as many different styles as they can I personally use a mixture of 1 gate tech and 2 gate tech myself haha.
On April 18 2012 00:58 tehemperorer wrote: Great read I came back here to get my head straight from using Saro Vati's PvP build with the 5-8 stalkers (it's not that efficient, but thanks SV!)
Thanks Alej, high five.
Edit: Bison vs Bison or PvP, which is worse?
Glad to see people trying it still though it is all up to preference though, and people should definately learn as many different styles as they can I personally use a mixture of 1 gate tech and 2 gate tech myself haha.
Yeah it worked for me for about a month but that was when 4gate just went away. I began to get beat pretty hard by people who cut more corners than that build does and now Im doing 1 gate tech :D
Having a bit of trouble getting the third and fourth sentry out on time. Does the third sentry come from the 2nd gate? or is everything off of one gateway?
On April 30 2012 16:51 Teoita wrote: Just the one, you can go 1gate straight into tech and hold 4gate with this if you execute correctly.
It's just insane how far ahead you are too if you hold and go robo.
It's also insane how my sentry is 5-15 seconds slower than it should be lol. Fuck my bad mechanics, something about this build is really damn hard to pull off.
On April 30 2012 16:51 Teoita wrote: Just the one, you can go 1gate straight into tech and hold 4gate with this if you execute correctly.
It's just insane how far ahead you are too if you hold and go robo.
It's also insane how my sentry is 5-15 seconds slower than it should be lol. Fuck my bad mechanics, something about this build is really damn hard to pull off.
haha I know, I never got it right until I made sure my geyser timing was perfect... 14 and 20, right after you build zealot+probe or probe+zealot
On May 03 2012 10:25 aZealot wrote: You guys go Zealot, Stalker, Stalker, Sentry? Right? First warp-in is another Sentry?
And yeah, I'm always off the 5.35 Sentry timing.
yes zealot stalker stalker sentry. cb the 2nd stalker. only warp in the sentry if you need it! the sentry timing is easier on some maps than others because of mining differences among maps. entombed is sick for mining. im curious how quick i could get that sucker out on that map.
On May 03 2012 10:25 aZealot wrote: You guys go Zealot, Stalker, Stalker, Sentry? Right? First warp-in is another Sentry?
And yeah, I'm always off the 5.35 Sentry timing.
yes zealot stalker stalker sentry. cb the 2nd stalker. only warp in the sentry if you need it! the sentry timing is easier on some maps than others because of mining differences among maps. entombed is sick for mining. im curious how quick i could get that sucker out on that map.
Yeah I noticed (own experience) that Daybreak's top position is worse mining than bottom; I think I've had the most de-synched probes in that position hands-down
Also, I kind of want to comment on what happens when neither player goes 4gate but both go for 1 gate tech... It seems from my experience that 1gate before robo is the best... If they go TC you cannot lose at all to dark templar just because obs timings match dt timings almost perfectly, blink stalkers are given away by large or pure stalker counts (immortal/expand), and it seems that the second you see a phoenix (provided you have already been aiming for colossus) you can cb two colossus, get a forge and then two cannons, and go win
against phoenix if you opened robo, i wouldn't wait for 2 colo. just go with 1 with pure stalker behind it out of 3 gates. i've been going 1g robo a lot more these days instead of the sg. the kr tosses that play on na have been murdering me with weirdly timed 2 base attacks when i do it and robo has been doing me much better :D
On May 04 2012 04:39 Alejandrisha wrote: against phoenix if you opened robo, i wouldn't wait for 2 colo. just go with 1 with pure stalker behind it out of 3 gates. i've been going 1g robo a lot more these days instead of the sg. the kr tosses that play on na have been murdering me with weirdly timed 2 base attacks when i do it and robo has been doing me much better :D
Sooooooo if I go 1 gate robo, I add the 2 gates and on my way to colossus (maybe robo bay being warped in) the phoenix show up. Are you saying to still add the forge+2 cannons and forward pylon and push right away, or forget the forge since in theory a push should make the phoenix come back to defend (hopefully with less graviton beam energy)?
On May 04 2012 04:39 Alejandrisha wrote: against phoenix if you opened robo, i wouldn't wait for 2 colo. just go with 1 with pure stalker behind it out of 3 gates. i've been going 1g robo a lot more these days instead of the sg. the kr tosses that play on na have been murdering me with weirdly timed 2 base attacks when i do it and robo has been doing me much better :D
Sooooooo if I go 1 gate robo, I add the 2 gates and on my way to colossus (maybe robo bay being warped in) the phoenix show up. Are you saying to still add the forge+2 cannons and forward pylon and push right away, or forget the forge since in theory a push should make the phoenix come back to defend (hopefully with less graviton beam energy)?
break it down for meh, high five
ya forget the forge. if he wants to keep his phoenix at your main let him xD
On May 07 2012 20:08 Westy wrote: Any idea how to hold against an 11gate with this build? Thanks
you just need to zone the approach. can't let him get above ground pylon. 11 gate 3 gate will have 1z1s at your ramp just as your 2nd stalker is getting out. your zeal stalk should be able to deny the high pylon. he will prob get 1 pylon down on the low ground but that is fine. have replay of loss to 11gate with any of these builds?
On May 04 2012 04:39 Alejandrisha wrote: against phoenix if you opened robo, i wouldn't wait for 2 colo. just go with 1 with pure stalker behind it out of 3 gates. i've been going 1g robo a lot more these days instead of the sg. the kr tosses that play on na have been murdering me with weirdly timed 2 base attacks when i do it and robo has been doing me much better :D
Sooooooo if I go 1 gate robo, I add the 2 gates and on my way to colossus (maybe robo bay being warped in) the phoenix show up. Are you saying to still add the forge+2 cannons and forward pylon and push right away, or forget the forge since in theory a push should make the phoenix come back to defend (hopefully with less graviton beam energy)?
break it down for meh, high five
ya forget the forge. if he wants to keep his phoenix at your main let him xD
On May 07 2012 20:08 Westy wrote: Any idea how to hold against an 11gate with this build? Thanks
you just need to zone the approach. can't let him get above ground pylon. 11 gate 3 gate will have 1z1s at your ramp just as your 2nd stalker is getting out. your zeal stalk should be able to deny the high pylon. he will prob get 1 pylon down on the low ground but that is fine. have replay of loss to 11gate with any of these builds?
Not anymore, didn't save them. The problem is keeping the probe from putting up pylons. there are quite a few maps out there now where its easy to sneak probes into the natural and get 2 pylons down. Once those pylons are down its pretty much game. I wont have my sentry out in time to start chain FF, so I will have to pull probes to deal with it, which can quickly spiral out of control if he warps in at least one zealot with his first warp in.
This thread continues to change the game for me. Just played with stargate for the first time. God that's a fun build. This doesn't even feel like PvP anymore! More like muta heavy ZvP!
Edit: Wow didn't realize I kinda necroed this, just hit post without really thinking.
For the last month I've been using the robo build and within 2 weeks of using it I got promoted to platinum and started running into the stargate build. Can't wait to see what stargate vs stargate looks like... Might even be worth investing in +1 air... Maybe? If he and I both have 5 phoenixes?
How do these openings hold up against a warp prism 4-gate like Seed used against MC in games 1 and 2 of the first-ever PvP GSL finals? I thought Seed's build was much scarier than a normal 4-gate because it can bypass sentries and because it is difficult to scout when the robo is proxied.
The openings in this thread rely on using early units and then sentries to deny a high ground warp-in. That delays a normal 4 gate long enough to build up a proper army. However, sentries obviously cannot stop a high ground warp-in from a warp prism, and they have awful DPS for battle once the enemy does get into the main. Does that mean the warp prism completely undermines standard 4-gate defense?
I feel that the 2 zealot 1 stalker variant of 4 gate still is pretty powerful and works. If I go 4 gate all my pvp match ups I win like 70-80% against high master/gms. If needed, I could provide some replays of me using it.
If you open robo you can scout it in time i think. Since you will get your robo before he puts his down. Scouting with the first phoenix is probably better too and will most likely shut it down. That said, not sure how Twilight will fare. The tech won't pay off in time I don't believe.
On July 29 2012 00:57 Adonminus wrote: I feel that the 2 zealot 1 stalker variant of 4 gate still is pretty powerful and works. If I go 4 gate all my pvp match ups I win like 70-80% against high master/gms. If needed, I could provide some replays of me using it.
This would be interesting to see. Is it just instead of zealot stalker stalker, you do zealot zealot stalker? I would imagine the 3 stalker rush would just crush this unless you CB the zealots and they arrive before the stalkers pop out?
Also, these 1 gate/2 gate tech builds; how do they fair in comparison to mirror builds? These days I see 1 gate 26 tech builds that come out oh so much faster than 29, so wouldn't you fall behind using a 29 tech build? Or are these builds just to approach 4 gate? Thanks
I have been doing the stargate build in here, but was having trouble against builds like 1 gate expo. I feel my nexus will be so late that I'm just behind. Is there anything I can do to counter this or build order change that will even it out.
On August 15 2012 02:25 -MoOsE- wrote: I have been doing the stargate build in here, but was having trouble against builds like 1 gate expo. I feel my nexus will be so late that I'm just behind. Is there anything I can do to counter this or build order change that will even it out.
I played the Stargate builds adviced here for some time aswell. Their problem is beeing very passive and due to that giving you a hard time to figure out what your opponent is doing until phoenixes are out.
The modification I did to adress that issue was going 1 Zealot 5 Stalker from 2 Gates with 2 Gas. Allows you to pressure really hard early on and thus revealing his Techpath. Phoenixes are delayed for a bit but this is made up by your strong army which forces him to warp in sentries to hold his ramp if he did some kind of 1 Gate Tech.
Poorly executed example of mine doing this build:http://drop.sc/235475 If you have any questions feel free to ask. There is a lot more to write about this build but I am a bit in a hurry.
On August 15 2012 02:25 -MoOsE- wrote: I have been doing the stargate build in here, but was having trouble against builds like 1 gate expo. I feel my nexus will be so late that I'm just behind. Is there anything I can do to counter this or build order change that will even it out.
I played the Stargate builds adviced here for some time aswell. Their problem is beeing very passive and due to that giving you a hard time to figure out what your opponent is doing until phoenixes are out.
The modification I did to adress that issue was going 1 Zealot 5 Stalker from 2 Gates with 2 Gas. Allows you to pressure really hard early on and thus revealing his Techpath. Phoenixes are delayed for a bit but this is made up by your strong army which forces him to warp in sentries to hold his ramp if he did some kind of 1 Gate Tech.
Poorly executed example of mine doing this build:http://drop.sc/235475 If you have any questions feel free to ask. There is a lot more to write about this build but I am a bit in a hurry.
I guess the main thing would be a blink attack would be harder to hold, at least I think.
Also, do you do this against 2 gate builds or just 1 gate builds?
Actually offensive Blink Builds are not that hard to defend due to the fact that I add a robo if my initial 1Z/5S Push is not able to bust his ramp. By that time Warpgate finishes, so I could warp in 2 Zealots or get the Robo. That way I can get out at least 1 Immortal before Blink hits and Phoenix-Lifts negates Kiting and Blinking which he has to do against my mostly Zealot Groundforce (early on). Against Blink/Obs it is oftentimes possible vs lesser Opponents to snipe their Observer with Obs/Phoenix and thus negating his ability to blink into my Main.
I do this build irregardless of my opponents build because except scouting for Inbase-Proxies my first Probe leaves the Highground as late as 17 Food (Cycore). I think against 2 Gate Openings like 3 Stalker-Rush it is even better to do this because he loses the absolute safety through mapcontrol like he would have against an 1 Gate Build.
Only two downsides of this is build is its vulnerability against 2 Gate Zealot (due to late scout; which diminishes partially by blind 2nd gate) and the fact that you cant end the game against non-greedy expand/tech-builds. Prime example of this is Blink-Expand off of a 3 Stalker Rush but for every Phoenix-Build it is impossible to kill that right away. Most of these games result in me falling back (after getting a pretty good impression what tech he choose) and both of us expanding (mostly faster by me because he has a really hard time to scout my followup and grade of commitment due to the high amount of stalkers on the map which negate even delayed Probesneaks). But I like 2 Base Games so that is no problem for me.
ok one more question. What would you do against a person who went phoenix at 29 supply. You will probably break the ramp but if you do not, do you cancel phoenix or just play more defensive until you have equal phoenix.
1 Gate Phoenix has to get 3-4 Sentries in total to hold his ramp. Because if you even get vision up the ramp he cant really fight your stalkers with his sentryheavy composition (and remember the additional 2 zealots you are able to warp in). By doing that he has to delay Phoenix production which allows you to catch up in the count even though your stargate has started later. I would say whatever you do, dont cancel the Stargate. Even though Phoenix-Mirror Games can snowball really fast, going Phoenix yourself if he does is imho the best situation but that may be influenced by my averseness to stalkers in the midgame.
I don't feel like 4Gate is dead. It merely has moved away from being the only option you have. It has receded even more as different build started to become viable, but against greedy opponents I still use it to somewhat great effect. The upside still being that it's a fairly simple build which everyone has trained enough to do it blind while sleeping in a coma, while most of the new builds do not yet have this advantage (especially mid-low master and below).
Essentially I would say that 4 Gate has moved far away from being your "go to" build when entering the game, but depending on your scouting it still is a powerful tool in the protoss arsenal.
On August 15 2012 22:13 Vanimar wrote: I don't feel like 4Gate is dead. It merely has moved away from being the only option you have. It has receded even more as different build started to become viable, but against greedy opponents I still use it to somewhat great effect. The upside still being that it's a fairly simple build which everyone has trained enough to do it blind while sleeping in a coma, while most of the new builds do not yet have this advantage (especially mid-low master and below).
Essentially I would say that 4 Gate has moved far away from being your "go to" build when entering the game, but depending on your scouting it still is a powerful tool in the protoss arsenal.
Eh... I dunno. I've been using these builds for the past several months and haven't lost to a four gate with them in weeks.
I always just feel the need to bump this thread though as it is just so essential to getting into PvP.
Well i have been using some 4 gates in my recent pvp's If i didn't scout an early 2nd gate and an early 2nd gas i went for a fake 2nd gas 13 gate 4 gate. You get some free wins against super greedy builds but it's still a big gamble and not worth it overall imho. The higher you get in the ladder the people get good enough to defend 4 gate pretty easily even if they don't see it coming in the first place.
I still 4 gate a good amount, and it still wins more often than it loses. The problem with a sentry defense like this is that my 4 gate looks identical to my 1 gate expand until I kill your scouting probe, and while this build is safe against a 4 gate, it loses pretty hard to a 1 gate expand on most maps.
PvP plays like poker where you make a read on your opponent and run with it. If you're much better than your opponent, you can gain a lead by executing better than them, but for the most part, out-guessing your opponent is the key to victory.
In even high masters 4 gate is not dead, it will never be completely dead, 4 gate can be effective with warp prism with hallucination, stargate, korean 4 gate, 10 or 11 gate 4 gate, and even 12 gate 4 gate with 2 probes can kill some builds. in my opinion it's a little early to say that it's "dead"
On September 27 2012 04:13 kcdc wrote: ..., and while this build is safe against a 4 gate, it loses pretty hard to a 1 gate expand on most maps.
I disagree. I use a lot of one gate expand builds and i win a lot with it but only because most players are not used to playing against it. If you use the OP blink stalker build with 4 gates it's nearly impossible to defend an early nexus. If you open with the OP robo you just have to build a warpprism and ff the opponent's ramp. If you play it out correctly there isn't much the opponent can do. I don't have a lot of experience with stargate play but with an immortal expand it's also very hard to defend.
1 gate expand is just a big gamble. You are ahead against late expands, late all ins but you die to any kind of 3-4 gate pressure, blink stalker all in. With the op build you are slightly ahead or slightly behind depending on the situation. Even so you don't get as much free wins the advantage is that you don't die to anything straight up.
This build doesn't give a fuck wether you try to fake someone out or not, your build starts branching out only if you see someone trying to plant pylons at the bottom of your ramp (and hopefully failing miserably since the whole point of going zealot/stalker/stalker is sniping the probe), and even then you only make as many sentries as needed when you see he is committing to aggression.
Besides, it's not that 4gate is dead. Simply, people are figuring out how to be more and more greedy against it, which makes it far less effective overall. If you compare this build to, say, Geiko's old defensive 3gate, you get your tech going a full 40 seconds faster at minimum, which is a huge deal. That said yeah if you know you are playing someone who is really greedy, by all means 4gate the hell out of him.
What's up with that? At first I thought it meant 3rd Gateway, but that doesn't make sense since it's before the Twilight Council gets built, so it wouldn't really be right. Is this an either/or situation or something?
there is no bigger waste of time than creating strategy content for a game that changes its stripes every 3 months and changes its species every 3 years
On June 01 2019 03:42 Alejandrisha wrote: there is no bigger waste of time than creating strategy content for a game that changes its stripes every 3 months and changes its species every 3 years
Good comment, probably the only time ive ever seen a necro be worth it.
On June 01 2019 03:42 Alejandrisha wrote: there is no bigger waste of time than creating strategy content for a game that changes its stripes every 3 months and changes its species every 3 years
i don't think i agree with this? maybe if you approach strategy as "do this exact series of things in every single game," but i'm pretty sure you can develop universal skills based on good info from high level players even if the broader strategy becomes outdated.
On June 01 2019 03:42 Alejandrisha wrote: there is no bigger waste of time than creating strategy content for a game that changes its stripes every 3 months and changes its species every 3 years
On June 01 2019 03:42 Alejandrisha wrote: there is no bigger waste of time than creating strategy content for a game that changes its stripes every 3 months and changes its species every 3 years
there's a glaring irony here lol
also in your name haha. i remember playing like 100's of custom games vs ai to get these builds down to perfect timing. so nuts lol.
On June 01 2019 14:20 Psychonian wrote: i really dont know how people even find 7 year old threads like this
In this case the bump was by the OP, who has put an insane amount of effort into it, so maybe he remembers it even after 7 years?
Ah, I didn't catch that, but fair enough.
Point still stands for other cases of things like this though.
yea, i was a guide writer several years ago and sometimes like to check on my old threads. currently trying to get good enough at brood war to make guides for that because they will be relevant forever haha. all work that is done in the meta by players is immediately undone by balance patches or essentially rule-changing. the current state of sc2 is deplorable because blizz want to control how you play
On June 02 2019 03:01 Wombat_NI wrote: Ah thanks for the bump Alejandrisha, reminded me it was you who ruined my best period of PvP
hollar!
On June 06 2019 06:32 BronzeKnee wrote: Lots of nostalgia around here lately, but this thread really shows the incredible content people used to produce for the strategy section.
Lol yeah old memories. I think i remember reading this, crossing my fingers and hoping that other people were not noticing it, and then sticking to my four gate.
On June 17 2019 23:50 BroodKingEXE wrote: I honestly feel like we could have high level strategy content, we just need to have more meta analysis since the game changes so much.
you can still have content if the game changes a lot. to demonstrate i will outline how i used to write my guides. 1. get idea for guide (hour 0) 2. gather vods- didn't take long since there were only 1-2 hubs of content at this time (hour 0-2) 3. grind custom games to imitate build for guide and provide idyllic benchmarks (time in nerd jail is fluid) 4. write guide (1 hour) 5. stare at guide (eternity)
the entire process generally only took a few hours. i was happy to put myself in nerd jail and grind out builds to find the fastest build times. sc2 is succinct enough that if you pay attention you can stay on par with the pros for at least 8-12 minutes so that was my contribution to the tl community :D
8-12 minutes before the added worker change.. now that would be like what, 3-5 minutes? zzzzzzzzzz
On June 17 2019 04:58 Chemist391 wrote: This sure brings it back. Thanks for all the help back in the day, AleJ!
absolutely! the only joy i got from sc2 was sharing what i learned and hanging out in vent with some choice fellows
On June 16 2019 05:45 Dumbledore wrote: Oh man I remember studying this guide sooo many years ago XD
for every person that commented on the guide, i knew there were 100+ people that just read it. thankfully tl logs views so I knew that my content was reaching a lot of people. i am thankful to tl for providing me a hub to spread by build propaganda and i thank you for your comment
You know, the game brought a lot of joy to me when I was younger. Good strategy content was fun and useful. Not everything we do needs to be enduring to be worthwhile.
On June 19 2019 05:43 Proko wrote: You know, the game brought a lot of joy to me when I was younger. Good strategy content was fun and useful. Not everything we do needs to be enduring to be worthwhile.
thanks for reading the context of the necro i agree. sometimes things are for what they are. and looking back years and years ago same plays. you right
On June 19 2019 05:43 Proko wrote: You know, the game brought a lot of joy to me when I was younger. Good strategy content was fun and useful. Not everything we do needs to be enduring to be worthwhile.
thanks for reading the context of the necro i agree. sometimes things are for what they are. and looking back years and years ago same plays. you right