On March 20 2012 07:04 Everlong wrote:
Hey, you acutely inteligent writer, what about actually watching all of these replays? You would realize there are many were Protoss actually does everything you said and still loses horribly. You could save yourself a lot o time and my nerves..
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On March 20 2012 06:53 BigBossX wrote:
Ok my response is going to seem really negative and I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing but i think a lot of you missed the points I was trying to make
I don't think it's a matter of amove vs micro, more like picking your battles and using the correct unit composition. In the replay I was referring to the toss just grouped his whole army of zeals stalker colossi and ht and just amoved into terrans natural on tal darim, terran was fully sieged and sitting just above the choke, there was no way in hell he was going to break that position and would have even struggled if terran went bio. My entire point was that toss (with a poor unit composition vs mech) just amoved into him for absolutely no reason. This is just incredibly poor and low level play, toss could have moved to his third and forced him to reposition, dropped in his main and forced him to split some of his army, or even just sat outside siege range (and stayed there because terran wasn't threatening any expos, wasn't massing any t3 or doing anything at all, toss had 0 reason to attack but still did) and denied a 4th until terran had to push out and then attempt to catch him unsieged or partly sieged.
This is just flat out wrong, I'm not even sure where to begin. How is building 3 cannons to save an entire probe line a waste of money? NOT building the cannons and losing all the probes would be the waste, especially when you enter late game and have 4-6 bases running.
On a lot of maps there just isn't the space to drop tanks out of cannon range and siege up, and all toss has to do is warp a round of zealots around/near the tanks and the drop is dealt with, or send a few of his beefy units over to deal, like immortals, colossi archons blink stalkers. I find the only way to effectively drop after toss has cannoned is to use a pdd or 2 to soak up the hits and just micro the hellions.
As for forcing him into giving you a good position ... what? Most hellion harass is done from a defensive position, as in terran is sieged at or near his freshest expo and sends his hellions around, if terran tries to distract with hellions and rush into a good position, toss just amoves and catches him unsieged/partly sieged. Gratz you killed 94 probes, but you have 0 army and he still has 100 supply of army left? GG
This is quite contradictory to the point I was making, my whole point was that he put up replay of bad protoss who didn't react to mech play until the game was lost. It's not that NO toss below GM can deal with mech, but the replay showed a toss who just refused to respond. I assure you even master level toss WHO ACTUALLY RESPOND to what they scout can make mech terran very hard to execute simply because toss have so many good units to counter mech and sim city/cannons negate one of mechs biggest damage dealers, the BFHs roasting probes. It's really easy to win a tvp when you have double the econ of the toss cus he didn't defend against hellions correctly. But you try that shit vs a solid toss with some basic ideas of how to deal with mech, it gets very very hard.
Also I don't see why people keep bringing micro into it, toss still doesn't need that much micro to beat mech terran, just good unit compositions and half decent positioning and an idea of when they should or should not attack (if hes sieged and isn't threatening you in anyway plz dont amove into the tanks) and where to attack (hes sieged at his natural? GO KILL HIS THIRD) makes amoving over mech army a doddle.
Ok my response is going to seem really negative and I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing but i think a lot of you missed the points I was trying to make
On March 20 2012 03:56 Norseman wrote:
To your point, BigBossX, I think he, and most Protoss, A+move into things because that's just how Protoss works. It's rare you find a Protoss who has good micro. They're so use to their deathballs and attack move that they don't know what to do when tactical skill comes into play.
To your point, BigBossX, I think he, and most Protoss, A+move into things because that's just how Protoss works. It's rare you find a Protoss who has good micro. They're so use to their deathballs and attack move that they don't know what to do when tactical skill comes into play.
I don't think it's a matter of amove vs micro, more like picking your battles and using the correct unit composition. In the replay I was referring to the toss just grouped his whole army of zeals stalker colossi and ht and just amoved into terrans natural on tal darim, terran was fully sieged and sitting just above the choke, there was no way in hell he was going to break that position and would have even struggled if terran went bio. My entire point was that toss (with a poor unit composition vs mech) just amoved into him for absolutely no reason. This is just incredibly poor and low level play, toss could have moved to his third and forced him to reposition, dropped in his main and forced him to split some of his army, or even just sat outside siege range (and stayed there because terran wasn't threatening any expos, wasn't massing any t3 or doing anything at all, toss had 0 reason to attack but still did) and denied a 4th until terran had to push out and then attempt to catch him unsieged or partly sieged.
On March 20 2012 04:32 Seppuku wrote:
Right! And everything that is difficult about mech play, is what is difficult for Protoss to deal with as well. Dealing with drops, doing drops, expanding without difficulty.
Terran has sensor towers to see drops coming and respond with Vikings/Hellions/Marines. If the Protoss is cannoning his expos, he is wasting minerals. Siege him up! Dropping 2 tanks with 4 Hellions will allow you to assault the cannons, while fending off warped in Zealots. It's a costly drop, but that will force the Protoss to either waste warp ins, or respond heavily; resulting in great positioning.
On March 20 2012 03:56 Norseman wrote:
To your point, BigBossX, I think he, and most Protoss, A+move into things because that's just how Protoss works. It's rare you find a Protoss who has good micro. They're so use to their deathballs and attack move that they don't know what to do when tactical skill comes into play.
To your point, BigBossX, I think he, and most Protoss, A+move into things because that's just how Protoss works. It's rare you find a Protoss who has good micro. They're so use to their deathballs and attack move that they don't know what to do when tactical skill comes into play.
Right! And everything that is difficult about mech play, is what is difficult for Protoss to deal with as well. Dealing with drops, doing drops, expanding without difficulty.
Terran has sensor towers to see drops coming and respond with Vikings/Hellions/Marines. If the Protoss is cannoning his expos, he is wasting minerals. Siege him up! Dropping 2 tanks with 4 Hellions will allow you to assault the cannons, while fending off warped in Zealots. It's a costly drop, but that will force the Protoss to either waste warp ins, or respond heavily; resulting in great positioning.
This is just flat out wrong, I'm not even sure where to begin. How is building 3 cannons to save an entire probe line a waste of money? NOT building the cannons and losing all the probes would be the waste, especially when you enter late game and have 4-6 bases running.
On a lot of maps there just isn't the space to drop tanks out of cannon range and siege up, and all toss has to do is warp a round of zealots around/near the tanks and the drop is dealt with, or send a few of his beefy units over to deal, like immortals, colossi archons blink stalkers. I find the only way to effectively drop after toss has cannoned is to use a pdd or 2 to soak up the hits and just micro the hellions.
As for forcing him into giving you a good position ... what? Most hellion harass is done from a defensive position, as in terran is sieged at or near his freshest expo and sends his hellions around, if terran tries to distract with hellions and rush into a good position, toss just amoves and catches him unsieged/partly sieged. Gratz you killed 94 probes, but you have 0 army and he still has 100 supply of army left? GG
On March 20 2012 05:29 Faust852 wrote:
I think Lyyna plays some topMaster/GM, and these replays actually show how bad a protoss is, even in top league. They just abuse of their power against bio because of collosi and HT hardcounter it without heavy micro, but when they face this style, they are completely lost. And until topGM, I don't think they're good enough to deal with it.
It's like now Bio with Protoss, it's very hard to micro everything,
On March 20 2012 03:06 BigBossX wrote:
Interesting read, I've used a fair bit of mech myself but I notice you don't mention anything about ghost/emp. I always found that when you get into the lategame and toss ads some extra robos for mass immortal, and then also adds a bunch of archons it can get real hairy without emp (when toss has like 6-8 immortals and 8-10 archons) with a bunch of zealots and storm, they can eat through your army pretty damn fast, faster than you can eat through theirs, at least in my experience. what are your thoughts?
FYI I didn't read through all the comments (too many idiots/trolls on tl) so sorry if this already been discussed, but it wasn't covered in your edit.
Edit: ok just watched your 6th replay on tal darim since you specified it went to late game. Seriously wtf? what league was this, I assume that toss was at least 2 leagues below you or has NEVER played vs mech ever, he repeatedly scouted mech and didn't react until he had already lost (200 vs 135 supply lol) by making immortals and archons, he amoved into your sieged natural into a choke FOR NO REASON AT ALL, his expo timing was aweful. The list could go on.
One thing that really really annoys me when people make a thread about mech is when they provide utter shit replays against either a complete noob or someone who doesn't know how to play vs mech. Please post a replay where the game goes above 30 minutes, toss abuses mechs immobility by expanding everywhere, by making the actual unit counters, by harassing with warp prism/blink stalkers, doesn't attack into a fully sieged position INTO a choke with the WRONG unit comp for NO REASON, makes cannons at all his expos to defend against hellions and all the other shit that makes mech hard to play
Interesting read, I've used a fair bit of mech myself but I notice you don't mention anything about ghost/emp. I always found that when you get into the lategame and toss ads some extra robos for mass immortal, and then also adds a bunch of archons it can get real hairy without emp (when toss has like 6-8 immortals and 8-10 archons) with a bunch of zealots and storm, they can eat through your army pretty damn fast, faster than you can eat through theirs, at least in my experience. what are your thoughts?
FYI I didn't read through all the comments (too many idiots/trolls on tl) so sorry if this already been discussed, but it wasn't covered in your edit.
Edit: ok just watched your 6th replay on tal darim since you specified it went to late game. Seriously wtf? what league was this, I assume that toss was at least 2 leagues below you or has NEVER played vs mech ever, he repeatedly scouted mech and didn't react until he had already lost (200 vs 135 supply lol) by making immortals and archons, he amoved into your sieged natural into a choke FOR NO REASON AT ALL, his expo timing was aweful. The list could go on.
One thing that really really annoys me when people make a thread about mech is when they provide utter shit replays against either a complete noob or someone who doesn't know how to play vs mech. Please post a replay where the game goes above 30 minutes, toss abuses mechs immobility by expanding everywhere, by making the actual unit counters, by harassing with warp prism/blink stalkers, doesn't attack into a fully sieged position INTO a choke with the WRONG unit comp for NO REASON, makes cannons at all his expos to defend against hellions and all the other shit that makes mech hard to play
I think Lyyna plays some topMaster/GM, and these replays actually show how bad a protoss is, even in top league. They just abuse of their power against bio because of collosi and HT hardcounter it without heavy micro, but when they face this style, they are completely lost. And until topGM, I don't think they're good enough to deal with it.
It's like now Bio with Protoss, it's very hard to micro everything,
This is quite contradictory to the point I was making, my whole point was that he put up replay of bad protoss who didn't react to mech play until the game was lost. It's not that NO toss below GM can deal with mech, but the replay showed a toss who just refused to respond. I assure you even master level toss WHO ACTUALLY RESPOND to what they scout can make mech terran very hard to execute simply because toss have so many good units to counter mech and sim city/cannons negate one of mechs biggest damage dealers, the BFHs roasting probes. It's really easy to win a tvp when you have double the econ of the toss cus he didn't defend against hellions correctly. But you try that shit vs a solid toss with some basic ideas of how to deal with mech, it gets very very hard.
Also I don't see why people keep bringing micro into it, toss still doesn't need that much micro to beat mech terran, just good unit compositions and half decent positioning and an idea of when they should or should not attack (if hes sieged and isn't threatening you in anyway plz dont amove into the tanks) and where to attack (hes sieged at his natural? GO KILL HIS THIRD) makes amoving over mech army a doddle.
Hey, you acutely inteligent writer, what about actually watching all of these replays? You would realize there are many were Protoss actually does everything you said and still loses horribly. You could save yourself a lot o time and my nerves..
Im watching more and more of the replays and still seeing these same mistakes over and over, its getting pretty boring, how about you point out which replays demonstrate good toss play and toss still loses?
But yeah I am seeing the whole point of bad toss amoving and getting pwned by mech
Edit: my mistake
Edit: Ok so I watched the rest of the replays Everlong PLEASE tell me which game toss did anything even remotely close to what I mentioned, because I didn't find a single one. Hell most of the games are won by the hellion harass alone, there are like 2 games that go some what close to late game, but still the toss plays like utter shit. Don't get me wrong it's a cute build and I do believe mech to be viable but this guide and those replays are a loooooooong way off proving anything close to that.