Although there has been a ton of ideas about how to mech in TvP recently; I hope that my ideas will help people who have been struggling in the matchup. This is my first thread on tl so I would appreciate some feedback on the thread.
The reason that I have switched to mech is because bio is so volatile in the final battles. Bio is volatile because almost every protoss aoe unit can kill a terran army in a matter of seconds. To me it almost feels like you have to play the late game perfectly to win. Please let it be noted that this isn't a cry for balance but just the observations that I have concluded about based on my games.
The Opening: As soon as I started playing mech it became apparent that I couldn't just start building tanks from the start of the game. The early game is too weak if you do that because the terran early game almost relies solely on marines. After a while I discovered an opening that is relatively safe. + Show Spoiler +
12 Barracks 14 Refinery x2 (leave 1 in gas for each refinery) Reactor at 50 gas (should be when 1st marine is done) Put 1 more scv in each refinery (should be 2 in each now) Factory at 100 gas Command Center at 400 minerals When factory is done: Switch factory and Barracks, put 1 more in each gas, build a starport and tech lab. Switch starport to tech lab and start making ravens Build factories as can be afforded and build armory when you move the orbital down. Build 2 thors then start tank production
The reason behind rushing to thors is because thors can withstand almost every rush with their mass repair capability. I have found that two thors and maybe a bunker is sufficient for defense. After you have two thors created you want to start making tanks and hellions with the layout 2 tech lab facts, 1 reactor fact, 1 tech lab starport. You always want to research vehicle weapons unless you scout a non-robo army then research vehicle armor (this is because thors gain more from armor against non-robo units then they do from weapons). Take a 3rd when either: after their push failed or when you feel safe with a sufficient number of tanks. Once you take a 3rd add another starport/reactor and two more factories. Start making viking banshee out of the starports.
A late game hellion/tank/raven/banshee/viking army can beat almost any protoss "deathball" that they can make. The goal is once you are maxed you need to start suiciding hellions into their main to kill workers/free up supply. Replace the lost supply in more tanks or banshees/vikings. Normally I just wait for the protoss to attack while slowly expanding and adding on factories.
Contrary to what you might think, it is not good to keep a nice arch with your tanks like you might do in TvT or TvZ. I have found that it is more effective to siege them in compact areas because since protoss units tend to have more health, they can break through a spread out tank line easily. Continuously harass with hellions via medivac drop or drive by's. This will keep the protoss on their toes and hopefully kill a ton of workers. In the final battle, lay down point defense drones with your ravens and target colossi with banshee/viking (again keep siege tanks compact).
The builds that I have had trouble with so far are warp prism all ins and blink stalker all ins. The reason these builds counter mech is that they are very mobile all ins and to defend early as mech you are centered around your ramp with a bunker. I have yet to find out how to stop these but luckily for me they are relatively uncommon all ins.
In the comments people tend to be asking three legitimate questions. Those are: 1. How do you deal with harassment attempts? Blink stalkers can easily be shut down by building your production in a tucked away area and keeping a small amount of tanks at each expansion. 2. How do you deal with reverse all ins when you go to attack? This question has a lot to do with number 3 because to stop these all ins you need to attack directly after they engage with you. If they don't engage with you just build up command centers and suicide scvs to free up space. Terran has mules use them. 3. When do you attack? You should constantly be harassing with hellions throughout the entire game because it doesn't matter how many bases a protoss has, if you can keep their workers to a minimum. Like I said in number two you should not attack until they have lost a substantial amount of army because they will win a base race most of the time. Mech is good in large numbers when tanks can splash their whole army; don't try to attack at 120 supply because it will just get demolished.
Please only post that mech doesn't work if you have evidence of this and you have actually tried using it. I cannot stress this enough.
please leave more comments if these questions are not yours but specifically direct them to me please.
P.S. There have been alot of comments about using ghosts and other units in the build so I thought I might as well add this in. Obviously get the appropriate unit if they are massing something ridiculous such as archons/high templar but ghosts are not necessarily needed in the build. They are probably helpful in almost every battle but I tried to keep this build down to the basics and its kind of akward with the transition time for ghosts (I never really understood when to switch to ghost production). Besides that great discussions I'm sorry that I haven't been able to answer all questions if you have any questions directly to me please feel free to pm me.
I personally don't play Terran but I play Toss and I rarely play versus Mech but when it comes around it can be hard to deal with, and I'd love to see Mech become more popular versus Protoss, nice to see someone doing it.
Do you have any late game TvP replays doing that build? And could you post some where you lose? And if you don't mind me asking, what league are you in? (This is not a troll...)
Ive been meching in tvp for a while now and i think mass thor is better then heavy tank. I usually go mass thor with bf hellions, vikings if i need it, and ghosts. Later on i include tanks but thats not until i have ten + thors. The reason i dont like tanks is because of charglotz and collosus. Even tho you have hellions, mass chargelot can still ruin your day. You have to micro your hellions well which means you wont be able to target fire with your tanks. Thors are just more sturdy and more mobile. Also this build would be more optimal if you take all scvs off gas at 50 and then build your cc right when you reach 400 minerals. I believe it times out so that you dont have to build a third depot and it gives you a better economy.
My problem with mass thors is that feedback absolutely rips apart thors plus unless you want to invest in ghosts to emp your own thors then they are automatically going to have >half health before the battle. Also nothing can compare to the dps of mass tanks. Thanks for the input on the build I'll try that out.
Mech is cool against Protoss but I still feel that feedback and immortals make it a suboptimal strategy to bio. In addition, I fear that the lack of mobility of the mech ball can be abused by Protoss, either by mass expanding, or multipronged harass.
I play mech all the time in TvP, and I feel that a weakness of meching is if the toss goes mass air. Once they have carrier/mothership/voidray, meching becomes incredibly hard to pull off, because the supply cost of your army doesn't allow for enough vikings.
Edit: How would you acclimate to that in your style?
To answer the questions/concerns of you guys: I don't use ghosts in my mech army mainly because it requires barracks and I haven't seen the need of it yet. I'm sure there could be a build that uses ghost mech in TvP but I think that is a more TvZ build and this build is supposed to be pure mech. To address the concern of mass expanding/harass normally for each bass you have you should have at least 10 siege tanks. 10 tanks should be enough to shut down any harass as long as you keep tabs on their main army. If they mass expand just harass with hellions in more places. It doesnt matter if they have 6 bases if they only have 40 probes. I haven't actually played against mass air but what I would probably do is immediately build 3-4 starports upon scouting and change from tank to thor production.
Problem with going against air is that the thor isn't particularly good against anything that comes out of a stargate aside from phoenix, which you'll rarely see. Carriers are going to be tough as nails to take down even with thor/viking. To beat the protoss air game I think BC's are in order.
May sound ridiculous, but a good transition from mech to go against toss air could be bc/viking/raven/ghost. Very gas intensive, but if it does go late game, your army should be very cost efficient against his and you should come out on top half map scenario.
On February 13 2012 08:49 tom_baburger wrote: To answer the questions/concerns of you guys: I don't use ghosts in my mech army mainly because it requires barracks and I haven't seen the need of it yet. I'm sure there could be a build that uses ghost mech in TvP but I think that is a more TvZ build and this build is supposed to be pure mech. To address the concern of mass expanding/harass normally for each bass you have you should have at least 10 siege tanks. 10 tanks should be enough to shut down any harass as long as you keep tabs on their main army. If they mass expand just harass with hellions in more places. It doesnt matter if they have 6 bases if they only have 40 probes. I haven't actually played against mass air but what I would probably do is immediately build 3-4 starports upon scouting and change from tank to thor production.
You definitely want ghosts in your mech army. Just a suggestion. Theyre pretty gas light and you only need 1 or 2 to make a huge difference in a battle
You definitely want ghosts in your mech army. Just a suggestion. Theyre pretty gas light and you only need 1 or 2 to make a huge difference in a battle
Thanks for the input if I have time then I will try to incorporate ghosts in my build and add it to the post.
Thank you for the input crocidile; I would like to start off by saying that this situation is hard to deal with as mech but not impossible. The reason I could not find a way to stop warp prism/blink stalker all ins is because they come before you can even get a thor out. I have seen the trimaster game and in my opinion he didn't not do a very good job dealing with the blink stalker harass. On shakuras you should always expand to the 3rd closer to the xel'naga tower because it is easier to defend with siege tanks. Like I said in the guide you shouldn't move down for a 3rd until you have enough tanks to defend each location. If you keep your buildings close together then the stalkers shouldn't be able to do much damage and any number above 4 siege tanks will rip apart any amount of stalkers. As for the ghost situation I am thinking of either getting ghosts or building another starport/tech lab late game because it seems as if I always have excess gas.
You´re talking trash. Any talk about biomech, or thor- based mech is either situational, all-in or troll.
Biomech doesn t share the same upgrades. Vs a protoss that upgrades faster than you do, it s terribad. You know what unupgraded marines do to fully upgraded chargelots?. Nothing. Why go Biomech? You have to keep your tanks together with your bio-army, which is not good at all. You can t harass else you get picked apart.
Thor-based mech is bad because of Feedback and Immortals. Don t try to talk me out of this with EMP your own thors or get strike cannons, because you re essentially using more expensive units to barely beat cheap-ass units. It isnt even cost effective, by the way.Why use thors when you have marauders?They re basically more mobile, have more dps vs armored, lag behind a bit on dps vs zeals, but can kite, and are healable and droppable.
If you want to go mech, Tanks are the way.You can defend blinks with hellions if you actually took the time to surround the stalkers. Plus, there s always the next production cycle of tanks waiting to assist you. MKP vs Genius was how to play mech, but had a few major flaws: Too many marines. You have to rely on scouting vs air switches. Go hellions, they re better, giving that youre not going to research stim nor shields. Late Upgrades.That s why, along with not target firing well, MKP lost the second battle.1/0 vs 1/2 even though MKP had the better army. Not enough hellions.Make m, love em. Tons of those along with good wrapping around archons/Immortalls will save the day for you.Splash makes Hellions cost-efficient vs Stalkers and Immortals, and basically any non splash protoss-unit.
If your trying to learn mech, I highly recommend only playing metalopolis and antiga shipyard only. There both very, very good for tvp mech, Metalopolis works well because there are few large open spaces, its very easy to control important space. The expansions are also all really close so there easy to get to, unlike tal'darim altar. Antiga is probably the easiest, because if you get the center, protoss can't take a fourth base, and 3 base protoss is terrible against mech,
@rgTheSchworz In my build I only get two thors because I have found that tanks are weak against all ins early game. I would agree that biomech is not viable in TvP because of the mixed upgrades as well as the lack of a critical mass.
@TBone- sorry that was just the first site I saw; I'm pretty sure its legit but if its not just let me know and I can try and use a different site. @Bourne- They will most likely not gas steal because there is literally a 5 second window in which they could do it since I get both of the gas on 14.
Try reaper siege expand. Tlab first, no marine. Stay on 1 gas, get a reaper then 3 rauders and CC when u afford rauder and constant scvs. Factory at 100 gas,then 2nd gas and bunker at the front. Then 3rd gas, swap the Tlab with the Fact, produce a Tank, then siege when u have gas for non stop tanks. Marines from the naked rax as needed. Remember to scout with the reaper for stargates and whatnot.Goal is not to do damage, you ll be on par with about anything, barring a nexus first, then you can kill probes to compensate. From then you can transition into whatever you want.
On February 13 2012 09:52 tom_baburger wrote: @TBone- sorry that was just the first site I saw; I'm pretty sure its legit but if its not just let me know and I can try and use a different site. @Bourne- They will most likely not gas steal because there is literally a 5 second window in which they could do it since I get both of the gas on 14.
Avast just told me it was suspicious, I'd change it to like sc2reps
On February 13 2012 09:32 rgTheSchworz wrote: You´re talking trash. Any talk about biomech, or thor- based mech is either situational, all-in or troll.
Biomech doesn t share the same upgrades. Vs a protoss that upgrades faster than you do, it s terribad. You know what unupgraded marines do to fully upgraded chargelots?. Nothing. Why go Biomech? You have to keep your tanks together with your bio-army, which is not good at all. You can t harass else you get picked apart.
Thor-based mech is bad because of Feedback and Immortals. Don t try to talk me out of this with EMP your own thors or get strike cannons, because you re essentially using more expensive units to barely beat cheap-ass units. It isnt even cost effective, by the way.Why use thors when you have marauders?They re basically more mobile, have more dps vs armored, lag behind a bit on dps vs zeals, but can kite, and are healable and droppable.
If you want to go mech, Tanks are the way.You can defend blinks with hellions if you actually took the time to surround the stalkers. Plus, there s always the next production cycle of tanks waiting to assist you. MKP vs Genius was how to play mech, but had a few major flaws: Too many marines. You have to rely on scouting vs air switches. Go hellions, they re better, giving that youre not going to research stim nor shields. Late Upgrades.That s why, along with not target firing well, MKP lost the second battle.1/0 vs 1/2 even though MKP had the better army. Not enough hellions.Make m, love em. Tons of those along with good wrapping around archons/Immortalls will save the day for you.Splash makes Hellions cost-efficient vs Stalkers and Immortals, and basically any non splash protoss-unit.
I can't actually argue with you because from your points, it's clear you've never actually used biomech. You've got the mindset that Day9 always talks about in that it's incredibly unproductive and ignorant: X counters Y, so I can't do Y! If you want, I can post dozens of replays of me winning TvP with both Thor and Tank-based Biomech and winning almost every time. TvP is my strongest matchup right now because I play it that way.
Everything you've said about biomech is incorrect because you clearly haven't used it before. You're always behind in upgrades even when going bio, so saying your bio is behind with biomech is absolutely pointless. It's a fact of TvP. You can afford upgrades from 1 Ebay 1 Armory for attack on both bio and vehicles. This is sufficient for dealing with Protoss all game with this comp.
Also, it's clear you've never used Mech either, or at least faced a good Protoss with it, because I guarantee you a production cycle of tanks and a group of Hellions out of position will not only fail to deal with Blink Stalkers, you will be out of position when the Protoss charges your line with Chargelot/Colossus. If this hasn't happened to you, you're not playing good Protosses.
mech without ghosts has zero way to deal with archons. if he has archons, he will roll your army, always. in a 200/200 situation, mech will always lose to protoss. for instance look at MKP vs genius on dual sight, MKP is ahead by 80 supply and he still almost loses his entire army to archon zealot. furthermore, you can't deal with warp prism harass, because mech is garbage in small amounts, which means you always have to pull your whole army back or risk either losing what's left out on the field or being unable to deal with his drop. you can't deal with blink stalker + colossi harass into your main because you will lose your army going back up your own main ramp.
going biomech is also garbage because you sacrifice the mobility advantage bio gives you for a negligible dps increase along with the increased cost of getting triple ups which decreases your production capabilities or sacrificing bio armor which is pretty important vs zealots.
On February 13 2012 16:15 rauk wrote: mech without ghosts has zero way to deal with archons. if he has archons, he will roll your army, always. in a 200/200 situation, mech will always lose to protoss. for instance look at MKP vs genius on dual sight, MKP is ahead by 80 supply and he still almost loses his entire army to archon zealot. furthermore, you can't deal with warp prism harass, because mech is garbage in small amounts, which means you always have to pull your whole army back or risk either losing what's left out on the field or being unable to deal with his drop. you can't deal with blink stalker + colossi harass into your main because you will lose your army going back up your own main ramp.
going biomech is also garbage because you sacrifice the mobility advantage bio gives you for a negligible dps increase along with the increased cost of getting triple ups which decreases your production capabilities or sacrificing bio armor which is pretty important vs zealots.
True about the ghosts and i disagree with the others drops aren't issue when you have Flash number of turrets in your bases. MKP was playing mech like it was bio i think even Artosis said it you can't just run around the map with your army becasue you get cought yes and P rolls you. The only real problem i see in mech is no anti-air everything else is fine even if you practice a ton of mech and have perfect sense when to build what and how to position i think if there is a heavy air switch mid-late game you will die. Stalkers are not the problem if the other dude starts massing them get 2~3 ravens its like playing TvT with rauders with good timing when you drop PDD's he is not doing any dmg while your tanks melt his army. I think zeals are bigger problem because of charge. Lets say you have your mech army with hellions upfront and he charges in with his army the zeals get upclose really fast and the thing is hellions don't beat zeals 1on1 if you don't kite BUT if you kite the zeal still charges for 3.5sec till 1st attack which leads to zeals beeing in your mech ball while you splash your own units. If you choose not to do anything and just leave your hellions still makes the tanks to splash your own units. Of course you can avoid that by beeing in better position, focus fire stalkers with your tanks,engage at maximum range from your siege line. Also one little trick i saw back from cArn is your thors should lead the army and you shift+click your hellions on the thors and when the zeals attack sometimes the AI glitches and + that you have a meatshield for your hellions to kill the zeals. Your hellions will start to attack immediately because they have scan attack. If you do everything correctly nothing in SC2 beats mech on the ground.
All the chances I had to try TvP mech playing as random the protoss simply used blink stalkers into my main base lolol. You have to be very careful with positioning.
Just wait for HotS and battle hellions, then only mech will be viable in TvP. I've played a lot of mech, and i only win vs retarded a-movers who complain that mech is OP. Half decent protoss just go zealot/archons/immortals, cauz hellions suck ass vs zealots (which means they'll build more of them, so they have more gaz for tech units), hellions have so few HP they dont soak up ANY damage and just die instantly from tanks splash dmg.. Also blink stalkers into ur base to destroy production facilities is a pain in the ass, prism as well ofc.. Even when i got a critical mass of tanks and mass ghosts, i just cant remax as fast as the protoss does, and i die from the 2nd/3rd wave of units. High master/low gm speaking.
On February 13 2012 16:15 rauk wrote: mech without ghosts has zero way to deal with archons. if he has archons, he will roll your army, always. in a 200/200 situation, mech will always lose to protoss. for instance look at MKP vs genius on dual sight, MKP is ahead by 80 supply and he still almost loses his entire army to archon zealot. furthermore, you can't deal with warp prism harass, because mech is garbage in small amounts, which means you always have to pull your whole army back or risk either losing what's left out on the field or being unable to deal with his drop. you can't deal with blink stalker + colossi harass into your main because you will lose your army going back up your own main ramp.
going biomech is also garbage because you sacrifice the mobility advantage bio gives you for a negligible dps increase along with the increased cost of getting triple ups which decreases your production capabilities or sacrificing bio armor which is pretty important vs zealots.
Negligible DPS increase? Think about what you're saying for a second. The main issue with Terran vs Protoss right now is the Toss will max out quicker, with better upgrades and an army composition (Templar/Colossus) that Bio just doesn't seem to beat in a straight up fight.
You're saying that by sacrificing Bio armor for Tank DPS, you're going to overall weaken your army. Tanks do large burst damage that scales extremely well with upgrades, and basically is large enough to ignore the Protoss upgrades. That's why Tank DPS is so significant.
I can also say through experience that the presence of Medivacs is more important for keeping your Bio alive than armor upgrades, which you can still afford once you get to three bases anyway, and overall a Biomech army is also greatly strengthened by the addition of Blue Flame Hellions, which do extremely well when they're not being relied on to be meat shields and can help to kill those pesky Charge Zealots extremely effectively. Overall Tanks and BFHellions are extremely useful in TvP and I'd recommend you don't knock it till you've tried Warden's Biomech style.
You can still take advantage of Bio mobility anyway: you can drop and draw the Protoss army out of position while you take good tank positioning, just like in ZvT. The weaknesses you've mentioned actually do not exist with properly played Biomech. It's stronger than you think
anyone who wants help with TvP in a higher level go watch Lastshadow´s vlogs about TvP, very helpful and dont really try mech in tvp.. its just... not good. you can find the vlogs from lastshadows blog or his youtube channel lastshadow9
On February 14 2012 00:03 KAmaKAsa wrote: why are people still trying mech?
Why are people still being asshats in this thread instead of contributing to the discussion?
Don't just say 'that strategy is not good.' Give a good reason to support your argument or no one has any reason to believe you have any idea what you're talking about.
On February 13 2012 16:15 rauk wrote: mech without ghosts has zero way to deal with archons. if he has archons, he will roll your army, always. in a 200/200 situation, mech will always lose to protoss. for instance look at MKP vs genius on dual sight, MKP is ahead by 80 supply and he still almost loses his entire army to archon zealot. furthermore, you can't deal with warp prism harass, because mech is garbage in small amounts, which means you always have to pull your whole army back or risk either losing what's left out on the field or being unable to deal with his drop. you can't deal with blink stalker + colossi harass into your main because you will lose your army going back up your own main ramp.
going biomech is also garbage because you sacrifice the mobility advantage bio gives you for a negligible dps increase along with the increased cost of getting triple ups which decreases your production capabilities or sacrificing bio armor which is pretty important vs zealots.
Negligible DPS increase? Think about what you're saying for a second. The main issue with Terran vs Protoss right now is the Toss will max out quicker, with better upgrades and an army composition (Templar/Colossus) that Bio just doesn't seem to beat in a straight up fight.
You're saying that by sacrificing Bio armor for Tank DPS, you're going to overall weaken your army. Tanks do large burst damage that scales extremely well with upgrades, and basically is large enough to ignore the Protoss upgrades. That's why Tank DPS is so significant.
I can also say through experience that the presence of Medivacs is more important for keeping your Bio alive than armor upgrades, which you can still afford once you get to three bases anyway, and overall a Biomech army is also greatly strengthened by the addition of Blue Flame Hellions, which do extremely well when they're not being relied on to be meat shields and can help to kill those pesky Charge Zealots extremely effectively. Overall Tanks and BFHellions are extremely useful in TvP and I'd recommend you don't knock it till you've tried Warden's Biomech style.
You can still take advantage of Bio mobility anyway: you can drop and draw the Protoss army out of position while you take good tank positioning, just like in ZvT. The weaknesses you've mentioned actually do not exist with properly played Biomech. It's stronger than you think
thing about BFH against zealots... is that they have very slow firerate and they do 19 damage per shot against a zealot and zealots usually arent in a line and zealots have 50 shields and 100 health even if you EMP you still have to hit ONE zealot for 6 shots to kill it and your hellions are usually dead after shooting once or twice because of the tank splash... zealots do high damage as it is and with tanks you have tank splash to hit your MM AND the stalkers/colossus and possible storms the armor helps alot against the zealot/stalker/colossus damage, because they all attack twice so you get double the damage reduction.
A MMM/ghost/viking army is much better than any sort of army that involves mech, reason being that marines have the highest dps against every protoss unit except stalker and colossus from the terran army and you have your vikings to kill the colossus and you should have around 8-14 ghosts to emp everything and a few marauders to tank zealots while your marines clean them up and also you shouldnt have more than 4 medivacs.. preferably 2 since that takes a bit from your army supply and you really should only stim once in the engagement.
The blueflame harass is kind of an extra thing, but you shouldn´t rely on it since eventually people are going to get better with building positioning and leaving a few units/building cannons etc and then that wont do any damage, it should be so that you can go mech from an even game and win from an even position and not from ahead
On February 13 2012 16:15 rauk wrote: mech without ghosts has zero way to deal with archons. if he has archons, he will roll your army, always. in a 200/200 situation, mech will always lose to protoss. for instance look at MKP vs genius on dual sight, MKP is ahead by 80 supply and he still almost loses his entire army to archon zealot. furthermore, you can't deal with warp prism harass, because mech is garbage in small amounts, which means you always have to pull your whole army back or risk either losing what's left out on the field or being unable to deal with his drop. you can't deal with blink stalker + colossi harass into your main because you will lose your army going back up your own main ramp.
going biomech is also garbage because you sacrifice the mobility advantage bio gives you for a negligible dps increase along with the increased cost of getting triple ups which decreases your production capabilities or sacrificing bio armor which is pretty important vs zealots.
Negligible DPS increase? Think about what you're saying for a second. The main issue with Terran vs Protoss right now is the Toss will max out quicker, with better upgrades and an army composition (Templar/Colossus) that Bio just doesn't seem to beat in a straight up fight.
You're saying that by sacrificing Bio armor for Tank DPS, you're going to overall weaken your army. Tanks do large burst damage that scales extremely well with upgrades, and basically is large enough to ignore the Protoss upgrades. That's why Tank DPS is so significant.
I can also say through experience that the presence of Medivacs is more important for keeping your Bio alive than armor upgrades, which you can still afford once you get to three bases anyway, and overall a Biomech army is also greatly strengthened by the addition of Blue Flame Hellions, which do extremely well when they're not being relied on to be meat shields and can help to kill those pesky Charge Zealots extremely effectively. Overall Tanks and BFHellions are extremely useful in TvP and I'd recommend you don't knock it till you've tried Warden's Biomech style.
You can still take advantage of Bio mobility anyway: you can drop and draw the Protoss army out of position while you take good tank positioning, just like in ZvT. The weaknesses you've mentioned actually do not exist with properly played Biomech. It's stronger than you think
thing about BFH against zealots... is that they have very slow firerate and they do 19 damage per shot against a zealot and zealots usually arent in a line and zealots have 50 shields and 100 health even if you EMP you still have to hit ONE zealot for 6 shots to kill it and your hellions are usually dead after shooting once or twice because of the tank splash... zealots do high damage as it is and with tanks you have tank splash to hit your MM AND the stalkers/colossus and possible storms the armor helps alot against the zealot/stalker/colossus damage, because they all attack twice so you get double the damage reduction.
A MMM/ghost/viking army is much better than any sort of army that involves mech, reason being that marines have the highest dps against every protoss unit except stalker and colossus from the terran army and you have your vikings to kill the colossus and you should have around 8-14 ghosts to emp everything and a few marauders to tank zealots while your marines clean them up and also you shouldnt have more than 4 medivacs.. preferably 2 since that takes a bit from your army supply and you really should only stim once in the engagement.
The blueflame harass is kind of an extra thing, but you shouldn´t rely on it since eventually people are going to get better with building positioning and leaving a few units/building cannons etc and then that wont do any damage, it should be so that you can go mech from an even game and win from an even position and not from ahead
Have you ever tried this composition? You're explaining in detail how the battles would play out, which is an understanding I would think you can only really get from trying it. The Hellions DO help out vs Chargelots a lot in my experience, and while the armor is important, as I've explained to you, my significant experience with this composition tells me that it's not as useful as the added DPS of Tanks and Hellions.
All I'm saying is my experience indicates the exact opposite of what you're saying, which in all honestly just leads me to believe you've never tried it and are theorycrafting. Or at the very least you have tried it a few times and failed miserably, then blamed the composition instead of trying to learn to play it correctly.
I feel mech is possible with a good marine opening and then using the reactor for hellions. The only issue i have ever had with mech are warp prisms and blink allins which both are essentially free Arbiter Recalls except without the spidermines to defend.
If your opponent is stupid enough not to do those things then you have an even match. Somewhat......
You have to have alot of hellion/banshee harass for it to work.
You always want to research vehicle weapons unless you scout an immortal bust then research vehicle armor (this is because thors gain more from armor against robo units then they do from weapons).
Vehicle armor is useless against immortals and is near useless against colossi. If the bust is incoming you'd best just dont make any ugrades at all.
On February 13 2012 16:15 rauk wrote: mech without ghosts has zero way to deal with archons. if he has archons, he will roll your army, always. in a 200/200 situation, mech will always lose to protoss. for instance look at MKP vs genius on dual sight, MKP is ahead by 80 supply and he still almost loses his entire army to archon zealot. furthermore, you can't deal with warp prism harass, because mech is garbage in small amounts, which means you always have to pull your whole army back or risk either losing what's left out on the field or being unable to deal with his drop. you can't deal with blink stalker + colossi harass into your main because you will lose your army going back up your own main ramp.
going biomech is also garbage because you sacrifice the mobility advantage bio gives you for a negligible dps increase along with the increased cost of getting triple ups which decreases your production capabilities or sacrificing bio armor which is pretty important vs zealots.
Negligible DPS increase? Think about what you're saying for a second. The main issue with Terran vs Protoss right now is the Toss will max out quicker, with better upgrades and an army composition (Templar/Colossus) that Bio just doesn't seem to beat in a straight up fight.
You're saying that by sacrificing Bio armor for Tank DPS, you're going to overall weaken your army. Tanks do large burst damage that scales extremely well with upgrades, and basically is large enough to ignore the Protoss upgrades. That's why Tank DPS is so significant.
I can also say through experience that the presence of Medivacs is more important for keeping your Bio alive than armor upgrades, which you can still afford once you get to three bases anyway, and overall a Biomech army is also greatly strengthened by the addition of Blue Flame Hellions, which do extremely well when they're not being relied on to be meat shields and can help to kill those pesky Charge Zealots extremely effectively. Overall Tanks and BFHellions are extremely useful in TvP and I'd recommend you don't knock it till you've tried Warden's Biomech style.
You can still take advantage of Bio mobility anyway: you can drop and draw the Protoss army out of position while you take good tank positioning, just like in ZvT. The weaknesses you've mentioned actually do not exist with properly played Biomech. It's stronger than you think
thing about BFH against zealots... is that they have very slow firerate and they do 19 damage per shot against a zealot and zealots usually arent in a line and zealots have 50 shields and 100 health even if you EMP you still have to hit ONE zealot for 6 shots to kill it and your hellions are usually dead after shooting once or twice because of the tank splash... zealots do high damage as it is and with tanks you have tank splash to hit your MM AND the stalkers/colossus and possible storms the armor helps alot against the zealot/stalker/colossus damage, because they all attack twice so you get double the damage reduction.
A MMM/ghost/viking army is much better than any sort of army that involves mech, reason being that marines have the highest dps against every protoss unit except stalker and colossus from the terran army and you have your vikings to kill the colossus and you should have around 8-14 ghosts to emp everything and a few marauders to tank zealots while your marines clean them up and also you shouldnt have more than 4 medivacs.. preferably 2 since that takes a bit from your army supply and you really should only stim once in the engagement.
The blueflame harass is kind of an extra thing, but you shouldn´t rely on it since eventually people are going to get better with building positioning and leaving a few units/building cannons etc and then that wont do any damage, it should be so that you can go mech from an even game and win from an even position and not from ahead
Have you ever tried this composition? You're explaining in detail how the battles would play out, which is an understanding I would think you can only really get from trying it. The Hellions DO help out vs Chargelots a lot in my experience, and while the armor is important, as I've explained to you, my significant experience with this composition tells me that it's not as useful as the added DPS of Tanks and Hellions.
All I'm saying is my experience indicates the exact opposite of what you're saying, which in all honestly just leads me to believe you've never tried it and are theorycrafting. Or at the very least you have tried it a few times and failed miserably, then blamed the composition instead of trying to learn to play it correctly.
The point i was trying to make is that the tank splash hurts your MM and hellions and chargelots arent clumped up after they charge so you would need to targetfire stalkers/sentrys/templars or w/e which automaticly kind of spread out so they can all shoot so they are not in a clump either so the tanks really dont do that much damage and also there are the archons and zealots and immortals soaking up the tank damage while storms and colossus kills your tanks.
and to the upgrade part the mechanic weapons upgrade doesnt scale as well as the infantry one does because marines and marauders have lower damage and faster fire rate so they really dont do that much more damage than they do originally
Also when you have to get all these different kind of things you really dont have that much of anything... tanks/hellions/marines/marauders/medivacs/vikings/ghosts and you do need atleast like 6 full energy ghosts to nullify some of the archon shields and the immortals and you need vikings to kill the colossus, because they just do alot of damage.
tanks and hellions do have low dps against protoss units, because they dont really clump up in an engagement and the splash makes tanks a good unit but theres not much splash that tanks can do in TvP.
And no I haven´t really tried that ever, because i haven´t felt any need to play other then the standard MMM/ghost/viking style TvP, since it is very good and viable and it does beat a protoss deathball in a lategame situation, because of the high dps,emp and vikings killing the colossus before they do too much damage and you will have an army advantage of around 30 supply because the protoss needs to have more workers to have an equal economy to you because of the MULE
I've been trying to find a mech build that works for a while now and I know how hard it's been and how much work you've put into this. I can't wait to give your build a shot and see how I can work some of it into my own builds. I think it's awesome you've found something that works for you and took the time to post it here.
Ignore the haters. I go through this day in and day out when I try to practice a new twist or use mech on ladder and people give me all sorts of crap about it. The sad thing is most players don't have the ability to think outside the box and come up with builds themselves. Unfortunately it's going to take a high level pro to unlock the perfect build/unit composition before all the sheep jump off the bio bandwagon and start praising how strong mech is and how fragile and weak bio is.
A majority of players aren't smart enough to experiement and try new ideas, to think outside the box, so until a pro force feeds them a build, and holds their hand to help them do it via replays and build orders, they'll simply keep shouting about how it'll never work.
My hats off to you, man. I know how much time and effort goes into this type of thing and I definitely appreciate you going the extra step and sharing it with all of us here. Thanks for contributing!
If you ever want to compare notes or bounce ideas off each other please PM me and I'll be more than happy to. I play on the NA server.
On February 13 2012 16:15 rauk wrote: mech without ghosts has zero way to deal with archons. if he has archons, he will roll your army, always. in a 200/200 situation, mech will always lose to protoss. for instance look at MKP vs genius on dual sight, MKP is ahead by 80 supply and he still almost loses his entire army to archon zealot. furthermore, you can't deal with warp prism harass, because mech is garbage in small amounts, which means you always have to pull your whole army back or risk either losing what's left out on the field or being unable to deal with his drop. you can't deal with blink stalker + colossi harass into your main because you will lose your army going back up your own main ramp.
going biomech is also garbage because you sacrifice the mobility advantage bio gives you for a negligible dps increase along with the increased cost of getting triple ups which decreases your production capabilities or sacrificing bio armor which is pretty important vs zealots.
Negligible DPS increase? Think about what you're saying for a second. The main issue with Terran vs Protoss right now is the Toss will max out quicker, with better upgrades and an army composition (Templar/Colossus) that Bio just doesn't seem to beat in a straight up fight.
You're saying that by sacrificing Bio armor for Tank DPS, you're going to overall weaken your army. Tanks do large burst damage that scales extremely well with upgrades, and basically is large enough to ignore the Protoss upgrades. That's why Tank DPS is so significant.
I can also say through experience that the presence of Medivacs is more important for keeping your Bio alive than armor upgrades, which you can still afford once you get to three bases anyway, and overall a Biomech army is also greatly strengthened by the addition of Blue Flame Hellions, which do extremely well when they're not being relied on to be meat shields and can help to kill those pesky Charge Zealots extremely effectively. Overall Tanks and BFHellions are extremely useful in TvP and I'd recommend you don't knock it till you've tried Warden's Biomech style.
You can still take advantage of Bio mobility anyway: you can drop and draw the Protoss army out of position while you take good tank positioning, just like in ZvT. The weaknesses you've mentioned actually do not exist with properly played Biomech. It's stronger than you think
thing about BFH against zealots... is that they have very slow firerate and they do 19 damage per shot against a zealot and zealots usually arent in a line and zealots have 50 shields and 100 health even if you EMP you still have to hit ONE zealot for 6 shots to kill it and your hellions are usually dead after shooting once or twice because of the tank splash... zealots do high damage as it is and with tanks you have tank splash to hit your MM AND the stalkers/colossus and possible storms the armor helps alot against the zealot/stalker/colossus damage, because they all attack twice so you get double the damage reduction.
A MMM/ghost/viking army is much better than any sort of army that involves mech, reason being that marines have the highest dps against every protoss unit except stalker and colossus from the terran army and you have your vikings to kill the colossus and you should have around 8-14 ghosts to emp everything and a few marauders to tank zealots while your marines clean them up and also you shouldnt have more than 4 medivacs.. preferably 2 since that takes a bit from your army supply and you really should only stim once in the engagement.
The blueflame harass is kind of an extra thing, but you shouldn´t rely on it since eventually people are going to get better with building positioning and leaving a few units/building cannons etc and then that wont do any damage, it should be so that you can go mech from an even game and win from an even position and not from ahead
Have you ever tried this composition? You're explaining in detail how the battles would play out, which is an understanding I would think you can only really get from trying it. The Hellions DO help out vs Chargelots a lot in my experience, and while the armor is important, as I've explained to you, my significant experience with this composition tells me that it's not as useful as the added DPS of Tanks and Hellions.
All I'm saying is my experience indicates the exact opposite of what you're saying, which in all honestly just leads me to believe you've never tried it and are theorycrafting. Or at the very least you have tried it a few times and failed miserably, then blamed the composition instead of trying to learn to play it correctly.
The point i was trying to make is that the tank splash hurts your MM and hellions and chargelots arent clumped up after they charge so you would need to targetfire stalkers/sentrys/templars or w/e which automaticly kind of spread out so they can all shoot so they are not in a clump either so the tanks really dont do that much damage and also there are the archons and zealots and immortals soaking up the tank damage while storms and colossus kills your tanks.
and to the upgrade part the mechanic weapons upgrade doesnt scale as well as the infantry one does because marines and marauders have lower damage and faster fire rate so they really dont do that much more damage than they do originally
Also when you have to get all these different kind of things you really dont have that much of anything... tanks/hellions/marines/marauders/medivacs/vikings/ghosts and you do need atleast like 6 full energy ghosts to nullify some of the archon shields and the immortals and you need vikings to kill the colossus, because they just do alot of damage.
tanks and hellions do have low dps against protoss units, because they dont really clump up in an engagement and the splash makes tanks a good unit but theres not much splash that tanks can do in TvP.
And no I haven´t really tried that ever, because i haven´t felt any need to play other then the standard MMM/ghost/viking style TvP, since it is very good and viable and it does beat a protoss deathball in a lategame situation, because of the high dps,emp and vikings killing the colossus before they do too much damage and you will have an army advantage of around 30 supply because the protoss needs to have more workers to have an equal economy to you because of the MULE
So basically you've come here to say "hey guys, I've never tried mech or biomech, but I've come to tell you why it doesn't work. Thanks to my extensive experience with ONLY bio, I can tell you exactly why this style that I've never tried will not work in theory."
You've been consistently describing hypothetical battle situations where the biomech army crumples to the Protoss army. Why don't I do the same for bio? I'll give an example of what your points sound like to me, considering I've played biomech, using bio for comparison:
Bio won't work against Protoss because it's really hard for bio to DPS hard enough to kill large numbers of chargelots or archons before the units all die to storms and colossus. Colossi just MELT bio units, they will always kill your army faster than vikings can stop them, especially since good Protoss will just kill the Vikings with stalkers and archons. Also feedback and good colossus usage will negate EMPs from having any effect. Also, drops aren't effective because Protoss can just warp in a bunch of chargelots and the drop gets stopped before doing any damage.
Now, you know that all of the above statement is untrue due to your experience with bio. However, in theory, it could make sense that way. The fact is there are other factors that determine who wins battles and games in TvP than theoretical battles: you have to try it.
As for the one semi-legitimate argument you made about upgrades: Tank upgrades scale well because at the +2 and +3 level, it starts taking less hits for Tanks to kill their targets (Stalkers, Colossi, High Templar), regardless of the targets' upgrades. This is not to mention how much they make it easier for the bio, which is not actually much smaller in number than a normal bio army is in TvP, to kill their targets.
Hellions do a lot of damage to Zealots and Sentries anyway, and since I usually have about ~10 Blue Flame Hellions in my army, when the Zealots all charge in at once, they will melt the entire first wave in one volley. Also, think of the tanks in this composition as super-long range ghosts, except they can kill units. A volley from ~8 tanks will do as much, if not more damage than a bunch of EMPs, and they can keep firing. They will snipe the HTs before they cast storm, they can dual with colossi, they annihilate stalkers, they weaken archon shields, they even bruise the zealots. My point is, Tanks DO do a lot of damage.
Also, if you're still worried about colossi in this case, who said you can't add vikings? I add vikings when I scout colossi with biomech just like any normal bio player would.
About Protoss clumping up: no, they do not clump up badly in an open area: generally, this is why we don't want to engage Protoss in an open area. In the same way we don't want to engage anything in an open area with tanks EVER, IN ANY MATCHUP. This is intuitive advice that goes with tank usage anyway: it's always better to engage in chokes, which is why I don't use tanks in TvP on maps where that's a difficult task (I prefer Thor builds for those, but that's a different discussion entirely).
People do mech all the time, and it can win. Illusion does it all the time on his stream, hell we even saw MKP do it in the GSL vs Genius. I do it every game vs protoss. And on the diamond level, I have around a 70% win rate. So instead of trying to stunt game development, why don't you do something useful?
You always want to research vehicle weapons unless you scout an immortal bust then research vehicle armor (this is because thors gain more from armor against robo units then they do from weapons).
Vehicle armor is useless against immortals and is near useless against colossi. If the bust is incoming you'd best just dont make any ugrades at all.
sorry I think I said that wrong... I meant to say you should get vehicle army if its a non-immortal bust it is better to get armor. A situation where you would need to get armor is if you scout a 6 gate or something of the sorts. Never get more than 1 armor because tanks don't benefit from armor as much as they benefit from attack. Thanks for catching that!
I also invite everyone who is already saying that mech doesn't work vs protoss to try it out. If you have already tried my build or another build out and it doesn't work please provide supporting evidence with a replay to support your claim. Otherwise don't post that mech doesn't work unless you have a video/replay of why it doesn't. Most players have a fatal flaw in their strategy that makes it doesn't work. Thanks for all the great input!
On February 13 2012 16:15 rauk wrote: mech without ghosts has zero way to deal with archons. if he has archons, he will roll your army, always. in a 200/200 situation, mech will always lose to protoss. for instance look at MKP vs genius on dual sight, MKP is ahead by 80 supply and he still almost loses his entire army to archon zealot. furthermore, you can't deal with warp prism harass, because mech is garbage in small amounts, which means you always have to pull your whole army back or risk either losing what's left out on the field or being unable to deal with his drop. you can't deal with blink stalker + colossi harass into your main because you will lose your army going back up your own main ramp.
going biomech is also garbage because you sacrifice the mobility advantage bio gives you for a negligible dps increase along with the increased cost of getting triple ups which decreases your production capabilities or sacrificing bio armor which is pretty important vs zealots.
Negligible DPS increase? Think about what you're saying for a second. The main issue with Terran vs Protoss right now is the Toss will max out quicker, with better upgrades and an army composition (Templar/Colossus) that Bio just doesn't seem to beat in a straight up fight.
You're saying that by sacrificing Bio armor for Tank DPS, you're going to overall weaken your army. Tanks do large burst damage that scales extremely well with upgrades, and basically is large enough to ignore the Protoss upgrades. That's why Tank DPS is so significant.
I can also say through experience that the presence of Medivacs is more important for keeping your Bio alive than armor upgrades, which you can still afford once you get to three bases anyway, and overall a Biomech army is also greatly strengthened by the addition of Blue Flame Hellions, which do extremely well when they're not being relied on to be meat shields and can help to kill those pesky Charge Zealots extremely effectively. Overall Tanks and BFHellions are extremely useful in TvP and I'd recommend you don't knock it till you've tried Warden's Biomech style.
You can still take advantage of Bio mobility anyway: you can drop and draw the Protoss army out of position while you take good tank positioning, just like in ZvT. The weaknesses you've mentioned actually do not exist with properly played Biomech. It's stronger than you think
i played nothing but tank/hellion/viking + ghost in tvp for about 5 months at mid/high masters. if you're not doing some kind of 2 base allin, it is NOT viable against anyone who isn't retarded. tank dps is shit because zealots have too much health and are light, and close in too fast. tanks are only good for killing stalkers, and they can't even do that when toss has blink. they also die far too quickly to colossi. notice how in 1/1/1 allins tanks aren't there to do damage; they just force toss back into their base or else take free damage. all the real dps is done by your marines or banshees.
igniter hellions die to colossi very quickly. you can't kite zealots because your tanks don't move. they deal shit damage to stalkers because shields don't take full damage in sc2. they are totally useless.
thors are a waste of supply and minerals if your opponent isn't going phoenix colossi. they add a total of zero to the fight after the strike cannon nerf.
then marines without bio armor vs 3/3 zealot archon just die instantly.
also note how warden's biomech thread is almost a year old and is no longer updated, i doubt even he would claim it's viable anymore.
GSL games shouldnt be mentionned out of context: every single players are figuring BO out to surprise their opponents and catch them of guard and stuff.
edit: after watching avilo's video, he's so right even tho it seems QQing/whiny whatever, he's right
You are just asking to get frustrated.. You WILL die to a lot of things. Blink Stalkers, Warp Prism harass, Stalker/Collosi base trade, mass air or just straight up fight where you are sieged they can litteraly 1a into it and trade equally at best, then warp-in 20 Zealots and go afk.. It's just not worth it. I know this is not what you want to hear, but I was on the same boat. Untill Hots (2013...), you better allin the shit out of em.. :-)
edit: I've seen Rainbow tearing apart m/gm NA Protosses with Hellion/Tank/Viking/(Cloaked banshee) + Ghosts.. But this only tells you really one think, you must be way better then your Protoss opponent to pull it off..
On February 13 2012 09:32 rgTheSchworz wrote: You´re talking trash. Any talk about biomech, or thor- based mech is either situational, all-in or troll.
Biomech doesn t share the same upgrades. Vs a protoss that upgrades faster than you do, it s terribad. You know what unupgraded marines do to fully upgraded chargelots?. Nothing. Why go Biomech? You have to keep your tanks together with your bio-army, which is not good at all. You can t harass else you get picked apart.
Thor-based mech is bad because of Feedback and Immortals. Don t try to talk me out of this with EMP your own thors or get strike cannons, because you re essentially using more expensive units to barely beat cheap-ass units. It isnt even cost effective, by the way.Why use thors when you have marauders?They re basically more mobile, have more dps vs armored, lag behind a bit on dps vs zeals, but can kite, and are healable and droppable.
If you want to go mech, Tanks are the way.You can defend blinks with hellions if you actually took the time to surround the stalkers. Plus, there s always the next production cycle of tanks waiting to assist you. MKP vs Genius was how to play mech, but had a few major flaws: Too many marines. You have to rely on scouting vs air switches. Go hellions, they re better, giving that youre not going to research stim nor shields. Late Upgrades.That s why, along with not target firing well, MKP lost the second battle.1/0 vs 1/2 even though MKP had the better army. Not enough hellions.Make m, love em. Tons of those along with good wrapping around archons/Immortalls will save the day for you.Splash makes Hellions cost-efficient vs Stalkers and Immortals, and basically any non splash protoss-unit.
I can't actually argue with you because from your points, it's clear you've never actually used biomech. You've got the mindset that Day9 always talks about in that it's incredibly unproductive and ignorant: X counters Y, so I can't do Y! If you want, I can post dozens of replays of me winning TvP with both Thor and Tank-based Biomech and winning almost every time. TvP is my strongest matchup right now because I play it that way.
Everything you've said about biomech is incorrect because you clearly haven't used it before. You're always behind in upgrades even when going bio, so saying your bio is behind with biomech is absolutely pointless. It's a fact of TvP. You can afford upgrades from 1 Ebay 1 Armory for attack on both bio and vehicles. This is sufficient for dealing with Protoss all game with this comp.
Also, it's clear you've never used Mech either, or at least faced a good Protoss with it, because I guarantee you a production cycle of tanks and a group of Hellions out of position will not only fail to deal with Blink Stalkers, you will be out of position when the Protoss charges your line with Chargelot/Colossus. If this hasn't happened to you, you're not playing good Protosses.
You re talking trash again. 1/0 and 1/0 on bio and mech is basically 1/0 on a bio or Pure Mech army. For that cash and time you can get 1/1 on either of the 2 and use only 1 of it. Both of which are viable.
A production cycle of tanks while on 2 base is 2 tanks. Assuming a decent blink or warp-in of 10 stalkers, 2 tanks+ whatever hellions pop+ whatever hellions you retreat can deal with it provided you use REPAIR.Zeals, Dt s are kited.
And no, buddy, i dont pull all my hellions off my push.You think I m crazy? I m not leaving naked tanks near a Pylon. Ever. Just make sure that while you defend the warp/blink you Actually either retreat your tanks, or threaten his probe line. Stalkers and Collosi are the only units that kill hellions fast enough to make harass unviable.Even then it´s possible to do damage, Assuming you get +1 mech attack.This upgrade rocks.
On February 14 2012 06:39 tom_baburger wrote: I also invite everyone who is already saying that mech doesn't work vs protoss to try it out. If you have already tried my build or another build out and it doesn't work please provide supporting evidence with a replay to support your claim. Otherwise don't post that mech doesn't work unless you have a video/replay of why it doesn't. Most players have a fatal flaw in their strategy that makes it doesn't work. Thanks for all the great input!
With respect, but the replays you posted in the OP do not show Mech works versus Protoss. I watched the 1st replay, the 2nd and the 6th. I'll explain what won the game in those three games, and im sorry to say it has very little to do with mech.
1. You were 80 food ahead, when you are 80 food ahead it doesn't matter what kind of army you use, you win anyway. Also, the protoss had a very bad army composition to face a Mech army. It was mostly stalkers with no blink.
2. Around 7 minutes you move into the Protoss base with some hellions, at that point the Protoss had build 0 combat unit, he had 26 probes and thats it. You could have ran in 5 marines and won the game right there, even earlier.
6. This one is more complicated, but in the end it comes down to some good hellion runs killing a lot of probes and more importantly: The protoss was way behind on upgrades and moved into a 20+ siege tank line on the high ground. There is no ground army in the game that can efficiently beat 20+ upgraded siege tanks in a choke, especially when the siege tanks have weapons upgrade at 3. Protoss could have expanded all over the map, blink up in the main on the side of the base, harass with warp prism. Moving an inferior army into a siege line of death doesn't necessarily mean Mech works.
I don't mean to be rude, because if there's anyone that wants to see mech work its me and i applaud your effort to make it work. But, i have never really seen a VOD or replay that proves mech works vs Protoss. A replay/VOD where Terran goes mech and the Protoss responds correctly by getting the right unit composition and exploiting the weaknesses of mech and: terran still wins.
Most of the VOD that cover a mech vs Protoss are decided by either Hellions melting a lot of probes or cloak banshee's killing a lot of probes. The Mech that comes after is just a formality, the game was already won anyway.
On February 14 2012 06:39 tom_baburger wrote: I also invite everyone who is already saying that mech doesn't work vs protoss to try it out. If you have already tried my build or another build out and it doesn't work please provide supporting evidence with a replay to support your claim. Otherwise don't post that mech doesn't work unless you have a video/replay of why it doesn't. Most players have a fatal flaw in their strategy that makes it doesn't work. Thanks for all the great input!
With respect, but the replays you posted in the OP do not show Mech works versus Protoss. I watched the 1st replay, the 2nd and the 6th. I'll explain what won the game in those three games, and im sorry to say it has very little to do with mech.
1. You were 80 food ahead, when you are 80 food ahead it doesn't matter what kind of army you use, you win anyway. Also, the protoss had a very bad army composition to face a Mech army. It was mostly stalkers with no blink.
2. Around 7 minutes you move into the Protoss base with some hellions, at that point the Protoss had build 0 combat unit, he had 26 probes and thats it. You could have ran in 5 marines and won the game right there, even earlier.
6. This one is more complicated, but in the end it comes down to some good hellion runs killing a lot of probes and more importantly: The protoss was way behind on upgrades and moved into a 20+ siege tank line on the high ground. There is no ground army in the game that can efficiently beat 20+ upgraded siege tanks in a choke, especially when the siege tanks have weapons upgrade at 3. Protoss could have expanded all over the map, blink up in the main on the side of the base, harass with warp prism. Moving an inferior army into a siege line of death doesn't necessarily mean Mech works.
I don't mean to be rude, because if there's anyone that wants to see mech work its me and i applaud your effort to make it work. But, i have never really seen a VOD or replay that proves mech works vs Protoss. A replay/VOD where Terran goes mech and the Protoss responds correctly by getting the right unit composition and exploiting the weaknesses of mech and: terran still wins.
Most of the VOD that cover a mech vs Protoss are decided by either Hellions melting a lot of probes or cloak banshee's killing a lot of probes. The Mech that comes after is just a formality, the game was already won anyway.
Before I start, Thank you for actually watching the games that I posted; because some people posting see the title and argue that it doesn't work. Next I would like to state that this isn't stating officially that mech should take over bio and that mech is the best strategy. I have just found a way that works for me, in diamond league, not masters and I wanted to share that with team liquid. The next point is that mech DOES rely on harassing with hellions; that is one of the advantages of playing mech. To be truthful I don't think I have had a game yet where hellion harass has not done damage. This may be because I am only in diamond league or it may be because nobody can defend every relentless attempt to harass with hellions. Maybe mech is not as good in the final battle as I think it is but its quite hard to break down the battle as rock, paper, scissors as some people are doing. All I see is that I am consistently winning TvP's; something that I never was able to do with bio. P.S: If I do find a game that I do not get in and do tons of damage with hellions then I will be sure to post it (win or loss); assuming its not cheese or very early game wins.
On February 13 2012 09:32 rgTheSchworz wrote: You´re talking trash. Any talk about biomech, or thor- based mech is either situational, all-in or troll.
Biomech doesn t share the same upgrades. Vs a protoss that upgrades faster than you do, it s terribad. You know what unupgraded marines do to fully upgraded chargelots?. Nothing. Why go Biomech? You have to keep your tanks together with your bio-army, which is not good at all. You can t harass else you get picked apart.
Thor-based mech is bad because of Feedback and Immortals. Don t try to talk me out of this with EMP your own thors or get strike cannons, because you re essentially using more expensive units to barely beat cheap-ass units. It isnt even cost effective, by the way.Why use thors when you have marauders?They re basically more mobile, have more dps vs armored, lag behind a bit on dps vs zeals, but can kite, and are healable and droppable.
If you want to go mech, Tanks are the way.You can defend blinks with hellions if you actually took the time to surround the stalkers. Plus, there s always the next production cycle of tanks waiting to assist you. MKP vs Genius was how to play mech, but had a few major flaws: Too many marines. You have to rely on scouting vs air switches. Go hellions, they re better, giving that youre not going to research stim nor shields. Late Upgrades.That s why, along with not target firing well, MKP lost the second battle.1/0 vs 1/2 even though MKP had the better army. Not enough hellions.Make m, love em. Tons of those along with good wrapping around archons/Immortalls will save the day for you.Splash makes Hellions cost-efficient vs Stalkers and Immortals, and basically any non splash protoss-unit.
I can't actually argue with you because from your points, it's clear you've never actually used biomech. You've got the mindset that Day9 always talks about in that it's incredibly unproductive and ignorant: X counters Y, so I can't do Y! If you want, I can post dozens of replays of me winning TvP with both Thor and Tank-based Biomech and winning almost every time. TvP is my strongest matchup right now because I play it that way.
Everything you've said about biomech is incorrect because you clearly haven't used it before. You're always behind in upgrades even when going bio, so saying your bio is behind with biomech is absolutely pointless. It's a fact of TvP. You can afford upgrades from 1 Ebay 1 Armory for attack on both bio and vehicles. This is sufficient for dealing with Protoss all game with this comp.
Also, it's clear you've never used Mech either, or at least faced a good Protoss with it, because I guarantee you a production cycle of tanks and a group of Hellions out of position will not only fail to deal with Blink Stalkers, you will be out of position when the Protoss charges your line with Chargelot/Colossus. If this hasn't happened to you, you're not playing good Protosses.
You re talking trash again. 1/0 and 1/0 on bio and mech is basically 1/0 on a bio or Pure Mech army. For that cash and time you can get 1/1 on either of the 2 and use only 1 of it. Both of which are viable.
A production cycle of tanks while on 2 base is 2 tanks. Assuming a decent blink or warp-in of 10 stalkers, 2 tanks+ whatever hellions pop+ whatever hellions you retreat can deal with it provided you use REPAIR.Zeals, Dt s are kited.
And no, buddy, i dont pull all my hellions off my push.You think I m crazy? I m not leaving naked tanks near a Pylon. Ever. Just make sure that while you defend the warp/blink you Actually either retreat your tanks, or threaten his probe line. Stalkers and Collosi are the only units that kill hellions fast enough to make harass unviable.Even then it´s possible to do damage, Assuming you get +1 mech attack.This upgrade rocks.
Second of all, 2 Tanks with Hellions is never going to beat 10 Blink Stalkers. I don't care how you think that will play out, it just will never happen. It's clear you've never played Mech against any halfway decent Protosses. What league are you in?
You actually haven't even specified how you'd hold off this harass WITHOUT pulling crucial units out of position, at one point you said you'd never pull back hellions; you'd retreat tanks, but unsupported unsieged tanks will not beat a squad of stalkers OR warped in zealots. If you pull enough of them that they WILL defeat this group of units, the Protoss can run the main portion of his army with Colossi, Immortals, and Zealots in to your front and take advantage of a good portion of your army being out of position.
Also keep in mind that 'dealing with' the harass doesn't even mean you've killed the units, and often the Protoss can almost always bring his units around to join his main army before you've gotten your units back into position.
Give me some replays of you holding off good harass by a Protoss, and I will believe you, otherwise you don't have a leg to stand on.
People posting please address if you have a question, comment, or concern for me, or if you are just debating with somebody else in the thread. To address your concern huyNh, when I checked for GoOdy reps around a month ago he was not meching. Maybe he was just doing something wierd the games I saw but every single TvP he was going bio, and sub-par bio at that. I am sorry I couldn't provide any pro level reps I will certainly look for some to add.
y not just use a sensor tower to deal with mid/late game blink stalkers + "flash amount of missile turrets"? also having missle turrets with hi sec tracking and a patroling viking on the edge of the main makes it impossible to blink into a main, by the time an observer has vision of the main its already dead.
On February 14 2012 09:35 tom_baburger wrote: People posting please address if you have a question, comment, or concern for me, or if you are just debating with somebody else in the thread. To address your concern huyNh, when I checked for GoOdy reps around a month ago he was not meching. Maybe he was just doing something wierd the games I saw but every single TvP he was going bio, and sub-par bio at that. I am sorry I couldn't provide any pro level reps I will certainly look for some to add.
Goody had stop using mech I think few months ago when he said it wasn't viable against protoss (that in it self says more than enough that mech is not really viable against protoss), so now he does bio like most of the terrans do. I do believe he still goes mech against zerg though.
Thanks for taking the time to write up this guide. I used to mech when I was active but got beaten alot -_- So this is pretty much theorycraft based on more modern developments in the game.
I like your opening but personally I feel like early closked banshees is the best option. They force your opponent to go Robo which is nice because you're forcing your opponent to react to you. Also no units built form the robo can shoot up so that tech path doesn't even add value to your opponents early game army. And get like 4-5 Banshees, a Raven and a couple of vikings for Obs sniping. Your air force will be able to respond to any sneaky Protoss shenanagins all game long.
As for unit composition I like ALOT of Hellions backed up with tanks. Thors are okay but for every one you get is two less tanks! Get Ghosts when you take a third, you'll have the excess minerals you need to afford them. It's okay to cut a round of production from your factory to make a few ghosts.
Basically I feel straight Mech isn't viable in TvP but as in TvT with appropriate support units to make up for the deficiancies of Tanks (Airforce for Mobility, Ghosts for Immortal and Archon spam, make more Hellions against Zealot heavy play) then the playstyle is sutiable on most maps. (Look for maps where the third is reasonably close and defensable.)
Edit: This play style also opens up the option of transitioning into Cattlebruisers. Get upgrades sooner rather than later. Sim City around expansions, supply depots and even defensive Pforts.
Probe kills are how to equalise the match up and apply pressure on the opponent forcing them to react and not just spam Chrono on their nexi.
On February 14 2012 06:39 tom_baburger wrote: I also invite everyone who is already saying that mech doesn't work vs protoss to try it out. If you have already tried my build or another build out and it doesn't work please provide supporting evidence with a replay to support your claim. Otherwise don't post that mech doesn't work unless you have a video/replay of why it doesn't. Most players have a fatal flaw in their strategy that makes it doesn't work. Thanks for all the great input!
With respect, but the replays you posted in the OP do not show Mech works versus Protoss. I watched the 1st replay, the 2nd and the 6th. I'll explain what won the game in those three games, and im sorry to say it has very little to do with mech.
1. You were 80 food ahead, when you are 80 food ahead it doesn't matter what kind of army you use, you win anyway. Also, the protoss had a very bad army composition to face a Mech army. It was mostly stalkers with no blink.
2. Around 7 minutes you move into the Protoss base with some hellions, at that point the Protoss had build 0 combat unit, he had 26 probes and thats it. You could have ran in 5 marines and won the game right there, even earlier.
6. This one is more complicated, but in the end it comes down to some good hellion runs killing a lot of probes and more importantly: The protoss was way behind on upgrades and moved into a 20+ siege tank line on the high ground. There is no ground army in the game that can efficiently beat 20+ upgraded siege tanks in a choke, especially when the siege tanks have weapons upgrade at 3. Protoss could have expanded all over the map, blink up in the main on the side of the base, harass with warp prism. Moving an inferior army into a siege line of death doesn't necessarily mean Mech works.
I don't mean to be rude, because if there's anyone that wants to see mech work its me and i applaud your effort to make it work. But, i have never really seen a VOD or replay that proves mech works vs Protoss. A replay/VOD where Terran goes mech and the Protoss responds correctly by getting the right unit composition and exploiting the weaknesses of mech and: terran still wins.
Most of the VOD that cover a mech vs Protoss are decided by either Hellions melting a lot of probes or cloak banshee's killing a lot of probes. The Mech that comes after is just a formality, the game was already won anyway.
I saw the sixth replay because he specified that one went to the lategame, and I have to agree that he only won due to hellion runbys and extremely favorable engagements. Despite both of those, he narrowly won against an opponent who reacted and played terribly. To be honest, I would have guessed that you guys were in Gold/Plat if you hadn't said you were in diamond and sc2gears didn't confirm this. I am going to try mech, but I don't expect it to go too well if my harass is denied and my opponent macros as well as I do.
I'm not sure what this will add to the conversation or if this will work at GSL level of play but from my own experience in trying mech based off of what I viewed in Illusion's streams seems to come down to it being POSSIBLE pre-GM on certain maps that allow for a nice siege tank line that can spread across 3 bases.... For example, antiga is probably the most perfect example of this. Tanks starting on high ground in main in a straight line that will protect your rocks on third. It appears that you need a map that allows you to grab a 3rd ASAP for the extra gas so you can upgrade/max in a very timely manner and it seems that you can only stretch out your early/midgame mech army to protect 3 bases on certain maps.
Of course the name of the game of mech in ANY matchup is turtle with hellion or banshee harass and then move out at max pop for the death push. Imo, the real variables in this conversation come down to harassment options. A protoss who can also expand a quick 3rd (possibly a quicker fourth than you as well) without taking any economic damage can be able to support themselves enough to trade TWICE with you before you reach their base. I'm sorry, but in the entire knowledge bank of my brain the second full pop trade takes all momentum away from the 3 base (because it's SOO hard to expand to 4th in a timely fashion) and usually turns the game into a loss. If you harass well enough that he can only trade 1 time with full pop and the second time when you are knocking on his door is some scrambled army you will probably win.
Based on those observations and experiences I view mech as a funny kind of 3 base all-in It's strange to think of a 3 base all-in but it makes sense when you lay it out. You are turning all gas into an incredible deathball while throwing away tons of minerals into hellion economic harasses carefully managing the 3 bases worth of minerals when sacrificing hellions. Of course you can use banshees early game for harass but you want to full pop with max gas units as soon as possible so switching into pure hellion harass is optimum. When you're bases are running lower on minerals, you've made numerous hellion sacrifices, and you probably have enough resources left on your bases to remax 1 time you begin the death push with the most perfect unit composition you can muster
In my experience when my harass gets shut down i lose, however, it is nearly impossible to seal EVERY whole against hellion drops (zealots/stalker warp-ins don't stop half the probes from still getting roasted!) and my losses generally came down to my own mistakes in poor decision making on executing multi-pronged harasses. Before I forget to mention it, your openings to fight off the variations of toss early pressures/all-ins are up to you and can be tricky but this is the same for going bio as well. All my comments are in the assumption that all cheesy early game antics are successfully held off by both sides.
So I have been practicing mech against toss on and off ever since day9 did his tvp mech daily and here are a few notes I have picked up from watching vileIllusion, BeastyQT, and Jjakji, and day9 tvp mech daily.
It is usually safer to do a 1-1-1 before going full mech be it a 1-1-1 into expand or gasless expo → 1-1-1. •This is not the all in 1-1-1 you can go cloaked banshee with a reactored rax -> expo while not getting tanks or thors until you plant the cc down. •The reactored barracks is very important it helps you hold certain all ins and makes dealing with stargate play easier(still hard but manageable) •Going for cloaked banshee with a reactored rax is the safest opening as you can punish the protoss if they get to greedy or all in without an obs. •It is also very helpful to get a raven when going mech going 1-1-1 easily allows you to do it.
1. Thors seem to be better than tanks in the early/early mid game because... •they are very beefy and will not die easily to gateway armies •if the toss gets greedy you can easily kill him as force fields are inefective •they are not very mobile but they are still more mobile than tanks and getting caught out of position will not straight up kill you
2. If you do get thors the armor upgrade is a lot better •armor makes thors last even longer against gateway units because zealots and stalkers do two hits for their damage this •adds to the longevity of your army and getting loosing less units will help you get a faster max.
3. Banshees are really good to mix into your army because... •they force stalkers which are bad against mech •if you kill their stalkers you have free reign against the zealots+whatever(except archons) •they do insane damage •allow you to respond to drops easier(still hard though)
4. You NEED ghosts, if you dont have enough gas budget your production so that you do... •ghosts are good get them •no really they get rid of shields and deal with immortals, archons, and high templars
•get sensor towers they are very good at spotting incoming stuff you can kill warp prism with vikings before they get to warp in or get your army into position if they are moving blink stalkers in
•get turrets up in key positions
•getting terran building armor and turret/pf range is good lateish game
•if you decide to go hellions then warp prism harass if easier to deal with just pull back the hellions/and or banshees. If they warped in zealots free units, if stalkers try to move more units or wait for reinforcements from your factories
when you get your third begin ghost production @3rd start making more tanks @3rd scout to see his composition and adjust accordingly @3rd begin making hellions if that's the way you want to go*
My personal thoughts... I feel like sticking to marines and banshees instead of hellions and tanks is a better composition. They allow you to more mobile while still dealing a similar amount of damage and relies a little less on killing your opponents economy. The tradeoff being that this composition does not control space as well as the tanks would.
Viable but still needs work... I think mech is definitely viable at lower levels and especially on ladder since you get more of an element of surprise and the toss will not always deal with it correctly. Currently mech is viable as a once in a while in a BoX series at a pro level Eventually as mech gets more and more discovered and researched it might become mainstream but still needs more work.
On February 14 2012 17:19 Inty wrote: So I have been practicing mech against toss on and off ever since day9 did his tvp mech daily and here are a few notes I have picked up from watching vileIllusion, BeastyQT, and Jjakji, and day9 tvp mech daily.
It is usually safer to do a 1-1-1 before going full mech be it a 1-1-1 into expand or gasless expo → 1-1-1. •This is not the all in 1-1-1 you can go cloaked banshee with a reactored rax -> expo while not getting tanks or thors until you plant the cc down. •The reactored barracks is very important it helps you hold certain all ins and makes dealing with stargate play easier(still hard but manageable) •Going for cloaked banshee with a reactored rax is the safest opening as you can punish the protoss if they get to greedy or all in without an obs. •It is also very helpful to get a raven when going mech going 1-1-1 easily allows you to do it.
1. Thors seem to be better than tanks in the early/early mid game because... •they are very beefy and will not die easily to gateway armies •if the toss gets greedy you can easily kill him as force fields are inefective •they are not very mobile but they are still more mobile than tanks and getting caught out of position will not straight up kill you
2. If you do get thors the armor upgrade is a lot better •armor makes thors last even longer against gateway units because zealots and stalkers do two hits for their damage this •adds to the longevity of your army and getting loosing less units will help you get a faster max.
3. Banshees are really good to mix into your army because... •they force stalkers which are bad against mech •if you kill their stalkers you have free reign against the zealots+whatever(except archons) •they do insane damage •allow you to respond to drops easier(still hard though)
4. You NEED ghosts, if you dont have enough gas budget your production so that you do... •ghosts are good get them •no really they get rid of shields and deal with immortals, archons, and high templars
•get sensor towers they are very good at spotting incoming stuff you can kill warp prism with vikings before they get to warp in or get your army into position if they are moving blink stalkers in
•get turrets up in key positions
•getting terran building armor and turret/pf range is good lateish game
•if you decide to go hellions then warp prism harass if easier to deal with just pull back the hellions/and or banshees. If they warped in zealots free units, if stalkers try to move more units or wait for reinforcements from your factories
when you get your third begin ghost production @3rd start making more tanks @3rd scout to see his composition and adjust accordingly @3rd begin making hellions if that's the way you want to go*
My personal thoughts... I feel like sticking to marines and banshees instead of hellions and tanks is a better composition. They allow you to more mobile while still dealing a similar amount of damage and relies a little less on killing your opponents economy. The tradeoff being that this composition does not control space as well as the tanks would.
Viable but still needs work... I think mech is definitely viable at lower levels and especially on ladder since you get more of an element of surprise and the toss will not always deal with it correctly. Currently mech is viable as a once in a while in a BoX series at a pro level Eventually as mech gets more and more discovered and researched it might become mainstream but still needs more work.
One of best posts I've seen in a while. Really helpful, thanks..
Will it help dealing with Protoss harass if you put a ton of turret everywhere and have sensor towers that can cover entire map? I think mass turret can shut down warp prism play. It may costs a lot of mineral but mech is much less mineral intensive than bio.
On February 13 2012 09:32 rgTheSchworz wrote: You´re talking trash. Any talk about biomech, or thor- based mech is either situational, all-in or troll.
Biomech doesn t share the same upgrades. Vs a protoss that upgrades faster than you do, it s terribad. You know what unupgraded marines do to fully upgraded chargelots?. Nothing. Why go Biomech? You have to keep your tanks together with your bio-army, which is not good at all. You can t harass else you get picked apart.
Thor-based mech is bad because of Feedback and Immortals. Don t try to talk me out of this with EMP your own thors or get strike cannons, because you re essentially using more expensive units to barely beat cheap-ass units. It isnt even cost effective, by the way.Why use thors when you have marauders?They re basically more mobile, have more dps vs armored, lag behind a bit on dps vs zeals, but can kite, and are healable and droppable.
If you want to go mech, Tanks are the way.You can defend blinks with hellions if you actually took the time to surround the stalkers. Plus, there s always the next production cycle of tanks waiting to assist you. MKP vs Genius was how to play mech, but had a few major flaws: Too many marines. You have to rely on scouting vs air switches. Go hellions, they re better, giving that youre not going to research stim nor shields. Late Upgrades.That s why, along with not target firing well, MKP lost the second battle.1/0 vs 1/2 even though MKP had the better army. Not enough hellions.Make m, love em. Tons of those along with good wrapping around archons/Immortalls will save the day for you.Splash makes Hellions cost-efficient vs Stalkers and Immortals, and basically any non splash protoss-unit.
I can't actually argue with you because from your points, it's clear you've never actually used biomech. You've got the mindset that Day9 always talks about in that it's incredibly unproductive and ignorant: X counters Y, so I can't do Y! If you want, I can post dozens of replays of me winning TvP with both Thor and Tank-based Biomech and winning almost every time. TvP is my strongest matchup right now because I play it that way.
Everything you've said about biomech is incorrect because you clearly haven't used it before. You're always behind in upgrades even when going bio, so saying your bio is behind with biomech is absolutely pointless. It's a fact of TvP. You can afford upgrades from 1 Ebay 1 Armory for attack on both bio and vehicles. This is sufficient for dealing with Protoss all game with this comp.
Also, it's clear you've never used Mech either, or at least faced a good Protoss with it, because I guarantee you a production cycle of tanks and a group of Hellions out of position will not only fail to deal with Blink Stalkers, you will be out of position when the Protoss charges your line with Chargelot/Colossus. If this hasn't happened to you, you're not playing good Protosses.
You re talking trash again. 1/0 and 1/0 on bio and mech is basically 1/0 on a bio or Pure Mech army. For that cash and time you can get 1/1 on either of the 2 and use only 1 of it. Both of which are viable.
A production cycle of tanks while on 2 base is 2 tanks. Assuming a decent blink or warp-in of 10 stalkers, 2 tanks+ whatever hellions pop+ whatever hellions you retreat can deal with it provided you use REPAIR.Zeals, Dt s are kited.
And no, buddy, i dont pull all my hellions off my push.You think I m crazy? I m not leaving naked tanks near a Pylon. Ever. Just make sure that while you defend the warp/blink you Actually either retreat your tanks, or threaten his probe line. Stalkers and Collosi are the only units that kill hellions fast enough to make harass unviable.Even then it´s possible to do damage, Assuming you get +1 mech attack.This upgrade rocks.
Second of all, 2 Tanks with Hellions is never going to beat 10 Blink Stalkers. I don't care how you think that will play out, it just will never happen. It's clear you've never played Mech against any halfway decent Protosses. What league are you in?
You actually haven't even specified how you'd hold off this harass WITHOUT pulling crucial units out of position, at one point you said you'd never pull back hellions; you'd retreat tanks, but unsupported unsieged tanks will not beat a squad of stalkers OR warped in zealots. If you pull enough of them that they WILL defeat this group of units, the Protoss can run the main portion of his army with Colossi, Immortals, and Zealots in to your front and take advantage of a good portion of your army being out of position.
Also keep in mind that 'dealing with' the harass doesn't even mean you've killed the units, and often the Protoss can almost always bring his units around to join his main army before you've gotten your units back into position.
Give me some replays of you holding off good harass by a Protoss, and I will believe you, otherwise you don't have a leg to stand on.
I specifically said I dont pull ALL my hellions back. FYI 12 hellions with surround DO beat 8 stalkers. About equal cost, arent they?. 2 tanks+4hellions- thats a prod cycle on 2 base. Unsieged a tank comes at 0/0 equal to a stalker and a half or perhaps a bit more.
With scv repair/attack youre fine. If I get to siege those 2 tanks without taking a shot, I m fine. + attack tanks only makes it better.
Also, Since stalkers are trash, if they go for a biig blink while you´re midmap, go attack the other half of his army and base-trade.WITHOUT sieging. Im sure you know how to soft push if you ve played some sort of mech. Base trading a T is never a good idea with stalkers. Reason: Puny DPS. Hellions can hunt probes trying to set up hidden bases.
Tank hellion, once it passes 2/1 upgrades, can smash Blinkers unsieged, provided toss is 2/2 or lower You have to know that, right? It s simply that stalkers upgrade in increments of +1, while tanks do it with +3. Plus, no shield upgrades hurt stalkers.
1.Attack. If toss gets greedy, the slowness of your thors will hamper you sooo much. If you bring scvs to all in, toss sacs his 3rd-only 400 minerals gone, which you wont have mined by pulling scvs off. 2.Upgrade +1 attack For you to play mech decently in TvP you need attack upgrades. Fast. +1 makes you 2 shot probes, +1 makes your tanks rock, +1 hellions get 9 damage through all shields, not 8.
The attack upgrades will enable you to build less anti-air. Voids rock vs thors. 2/2 thors vs 0/0 voids with 3-5 vikings? Not so sweet for the protoss.Vikings can kite indefinitely and do survive to do damage in this case.
1.Attack. If toss gets greedy, the slowness of your thors will hamper you sooo much. If you bring scvs to all in, toss sacs his 3rd-only 400 minerals gone, which you wont have mined by pulling scvs off. 2.Upgrade +1 attack For you to play mech decently in TvP you need attack upgrades. Fast. +1 makes you 2 shot probes, +1 makes your tanks rock, +1 hellions get 9 damage through all shields, not 8.
The attack upgrades will enable you to build less anti-air. Voids rock vs thors. 2/2 thors vs 0/0 voids with 3-5 vikings? Not so sweet for the protoss.Vikings can kite indefinitely and do survive to do damage in this case.
The point of this build IS to find a way to survive early game so you can get to the late game. Mech's strength is in the late game and you don't need to attack. Also you CAN get +1. You may have to cut scvs for a round but thats not really that big of a deal. Plus if you don't get thors than you are already going out of your way getting an armory just to get upgrades.
I am a mech TVP lover myself in master league. 2 things i like to add: Ghosts are important with their emp skill, because immortal and archon are a really good timing based hardcounter in midgame. Try dumping your minerals in additional barracks and let them float with your army. You can use those for scouting and vision and if a big battle is about to occur, you can land those barracks in front of your army. This has 2 advantages: - You create artificial barriers that let chargelots and archons be much less effective, they have to go around to attack . You mess up ranged units targeting if they just a-move (Which most people will do in a big fight like that)
I have not tested that myself, so this barracks use is just theorycraft, but i feel like this might revolutionize the mech tvp matchup to make your army almost unkillable.
It's good somoene posted a new guide on mech. I was thinig about experimenting with it, my idea was to start with bio. Geting 2-3 rax, stim & combat shield, mabye 1/1; 2/0 upgrades also later in game, a switch into only marrines from those rax can also be considered due to mech eating alot of gas; and then transition into mech. This should keep you safe against fast warprism/b-stalker rush and later on punish mass expanding if it occurs.
Another very important thing, Mass hellions beat any ground clumped up Protoss army due to their AoE attack i don't think anyone has noticed that yet. In fact I was about to test a mass hellion reactor expand tactic but i got shut down twice by my enemy going phoenixes :d It might however find it's use in mech, someone above said that you can't stop stalkers with hellions, well i think you can, you just need the right positioning.
On February 14 2012 09:25 huyNh wrote: you can't have a mech tvp guide without some GoOdy reps
GoOdy meching against protoss are against players that haven't seen mech before, are bad, or a combination of both.
Not saying that mech should NEVER work, but it depends a lot more on your opponent just being bad and building gateway units over immortals.
That's not true at all. Up until very recently GoOdy was meching agianst some of the best Protoss players on the scene. So I don't know where you get your info. He has since switched to bio, citing the hellion nerf as the reason, but I really don't think that change was THAT big of a deal to warrant a complete style change.
I think mech still has a lot of untapped potential.
Nice to see a mech TvP topic. This is what I play for some months and it's very effective. However I play more BW style with tank hellion ghost mix, and no thor, unless the protoss is going air. I'll try your opening and your unit mix .
On February 15 2012 18:44 tdt.Baki wrote: It's good somoene posted a new guide on mech. I was thinig about experimenting with it, my idea was to start with bio. Geting 2-3 rax, stim & combat shield, mabye 1/1; 2/0 upgrades also later in game, a switch into only marrines from those rax can also be considered due to mech eating alot of gas; and then transition into mech. This should keep you safe against fast warprism/b-stalker rush and later on punish mass expanding if it occurs.
Another very important thing, Mass hellions beat any ground clumped up Protoss army due to their AoE attack i don't think anyone has noticed that yet. In fact I was about to test a mass hellion reactor expand tactic but i got shut down twice by my enemy going phoenixes :d It might however find it's use in mech, someone above said that you can't stop stalkers with hellions, well i think you can, you just need the right positioning.
I'm top masters if it counts.
The problem with starting with bio is that the transition is really tough to pull off. You can't just build 3 factories in the middle your bio game and say you are going mech. You have too much investments in bio I just don't think it is viable. It is no doubt a lot safer in the earlier game but I think there would be a huge unit deficit when you start making the factories. If you have a game of this working please upload a rep.
I would also like to note that the thors are strictly defensive units. If I had found away to open tank hellion without losing to every single rush right before siege mode, then I would use it. Hellions and tanks are strong in really high numbers while the opposite is true for thors. Thors can be surrounded by scvs and made nearly impossible to kill in the early game.
On February 14 2012 17:19 Inty wrote: So I have been practicing mech against toss on and off ever since day9 did his tvp mech daily and here are a few notes I have picked up from watching vileIllusion, BeastyQT, and Jjakji, and day9 tvp mech daily.
It is usually safer to do a 1-1-1 before going full mech be it a 1-1-1 into expand or gasless expo → 1-1-1. •This is not the all in 1-1-1 you can go cloaked banshee with a reactored rax -> expo while not getting tanks or thors until you plant the cc down. •The reactored barracks is very important it helps you hold certain all ins and makes dealing with stargate play easier(still hard but manageable) •Going for cloaked banshee with a reactored rax is the safest opening as you can punish the protoss if they get to greedy or all in without an obs. •It is also very helpful to get a raven when going mech going 1-1-1 easily allows you to do it.
1. Thors seem to be better than tanks in the early/early mid game because... •they are very beefy and will not die easily to gateway armies •if the toss gets greedy you can easily kill him as force fields are inefective •they are not very mobile but they are still more mobile than tanks and getting caught out of position will not straight up kill you
2. If you do get thors the armor upgrade is a lot better •armor makes thors last even longer against gateway units because zealots and stalkers do two hits for their damage this •adds to the longevity of your army and getting loosing less units will help you get a faster max.
3. Banshees are really good to mix into your army because... •they force stalkers which are bad against mech •if you kill their stalkers you have free reign against the zealots+whatever(except archons) •they do insane damage •allow you to respond to drops easier(still hard though)
4. You NEED ghosts, if you dont have enough gas budget your production so that you do... •ghosts are good get them •no really they get rid of shields and deal with immortals, archons, and high templars
•get sensor towers they are very good at spotting incoming stuff you can kill warp prism with vikings before they get to warp in or get your army into position if they are moving blink stalkers in
•get turrets up in key positions
•getting terran building armor and turret/pf range is good lateish game
•if you decide to go hellions then warp prism harass if easier to deal with just pull back the hellions/and or banshees. If they warped in zealots free units, if stalkers try to move more units or wait for reinforcements from your factories
when you get your third begin ghost production @3rd start making more tanks @3rd scout to see his composition and adjust accordingly @3rd begin making hellions if that's the way you want to go*
My personal thoughts... I feel like sticking to marines and banshees instead of hellions and tanks is a better composition. They allow you to more mobile while still dealing a similar amount of damage and relies a little less on killing your opponents economy. The tradeoff being that this composition does not control space as well as the tanks would.
Viable but still needs work... I think mech is definitely viable at lower levels and especially on ladder since you get more of an element of surprise and the toss will not always deal with it correctly. Currently mech is viable as a once in a while in a BoX series at a pro level Eventually as mech gets more and more discovered and researched it might become mainstream but still needs more work.
When I mech I do all of those plus two more things and they make an unbelievable difference in how well you do 1. Build Barracks, engineering bays, PFs, or depos to block archon and zealot attack routes. You are terran you can build wherever you want mech greatly benefits by not being in an open area and by defending choke points use these buildings give your self chokes. -The engineering bay is cheap and has alot of health but you can't move it so to get through you have to either cancel or kill it. -Barracks slightly more expensive but you can liftoff to allow easy entrance and exit -Depos build fast you need them anyway and are small enough to where the toss needs to get close to kill them -PF's build them in vital chokes put them on cliffs where stalkers might try to do a blink by.
2. For aa dont just use turrets and vikings build ravens. By effective use of your sensor towers you a few hellions and ravens can deal with any blink ins I find. Even when not defending against air the ravens can still help you just have to be a little more careful with where you put your pdds when templar are involved.
Tomba - I watched all your reps and came to a similar conclusion. In the games you won, it seemed as though you had successfuly hellion runbys and drops that roasted a lot of probes. I would be interested in seeing any replays of games you have where you either do less probe harass or the protoss defends better against it, and then we really get to see your near max Mech army face up against a similar supply Toss army. Of course, this is not to deny the importance of hellion harass as it is a staple of Mech play in general. However, the big question on people's mind is whether Mech does well against an equal food Toss Army with similar upgrades.
On February 14 2012 06:39 tom_baburger wrote: I also invite everyone who is already saying that mech doesn't work vs protoss to try it out. If you have already tried my build or another build out and it doesn't work please provide supporting evidence with a replay to support your claim. Otherwise don't post that mech doesn't work unless you have a video/replay of why it doesn't. Most players have a fatal flaw in their strategy that makes it doesn't work. Thanks for all the great input!
With respect, but the replays you posted in the OP do not show Mech works versus Protoss. I watched the 1st replay, the 2nd and the 6th. I'll explain what won the game in those three games, and im sorry to say it has very little to do with mech.
1. You were 80 food ahead, when you are 80 food ahead it doesn't matter what kind of army you use, you win anyway. Also, the protoss had a very bad army composition to face a Mech army. It was mostly stalkers with no blink.
2. Around 7 minutes you move into the Protoss base with some hellions, at that point the Protoss had build 0 combat unit, he had 26 probes and thats it. You could have ran in 5 marines and won the game right there, even earlier.
6. This one is more complicated, but in the end it comes down to some good hellion runs killing a lot of probes and more importantly: The protoss was way behind on upgrades and moved into a 20+ siege tank line on the high ground. There is no ground army in the game that can efficiently beat 20+ upgraded siege tanks in a choke, especially when the siege tanks have weapons upgrade at 3. Protoss could have expanded all over the map, blink up in the main on the side of the base, harass with warp prism. Moving an inferior army into a siege line of death doesn't necessarily mean Mech works.
I don't mean to be rude, because if there's anyone that wants to see mech work its me and i applaud your effort to make it work. But, i have never really seen a VOD or replay that proves mech works vs Protoss. A replay/VOD where Terran goes mech and the Protoss responds correctly by getting the right unit composition and exploiting the weaknesses of mech and: terran still wins.
Most of the VOD that cover a mech vs Protoss are decided by either Hellions melting a lot of probes or cloak banshee's killing a lot of probes. The Mech that comes after is just a formality, the game was already won anyway.
Before I start, Thank you for actually watching the games that I posted; because some people posting see the title and argue that it doesn't work. Next I would like to state that this isn't stating officially that mech should take over bio and that mech is the best strategy. I have just found a way that works for me, in diamond league, not masters and I wanted to share that with team liquid. The next point is that mech DOES rely on harassing with hellions; that is one of the advantages of playing mech. To be truthful I don't think I have had a game yet where hellion harass has not done damage. This may be because I am only in diamond league or it may be because nobody can defend every relentless attempt to harass with hellions. Maybe mech is not as good in the final battle as I think it is but its quite hard to break down the battle as rock, paper, scissors as some people are doing. All I see is that I am consistently winning TvP's; something that I never was able to do with bio. P.S: If I do find a game that I do not get in and do tons of damage with hellions then I will be sure to post it (win or loss); assuming its not cheese or very early game wins.
I think people are forgetting that tanks are not the only mech units in the game. I've been going through this thread and everyone who says mech doesn't work keep referring to how much tank sucks. I mech with great sucess against protoss at mid master level and i hardly every use tanks. Thor based mech armies are the way go, with ghost viking bf hellion support, ect.
The reason mech isn't viable for the pros is not because the max army is weak but because mech openings are extremely vulnerable. Pro players will study opponents before matches and can spot weaknesses in mech builds that they can abuse (they can use blink stalker, waprism timings ect). This is why pros dont use mech because they know they know they can suffer easy build order losses.
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't. If you just ladder casually or play with friends: why cant you use mech? A maxed army of thors hellions and ghosts absolutely wrecks protoss in late game. If you can slowly build to this army and not die to timing attacks or harass builds then you should be in really good shape for the late game. In fact i usually take my third around the same time as bio builds and i feel much more confident taking 4ths or 5ths. Basically if the protoss doesn't harass you heavily or catch you offguard with an early all in, your pretty much going to roll his army(providing you macro and micro well ofcourse). Mech is crazy awesome in late game =D
On February 18 2012 16:05 RedMosquito wrote: I think people are forgetting that tanks are not the only mech units in the game. I've been going through this thread and everyone who says mech doesn't work keep referring to how much tank sucks. I mech with great sucess against protoss at mid master level and i hardly every use tanks. Thor based mech armies are the way go, with ghost viking bf hellion support, ect.
The reason mech isn't viable for the pros is not because the max army is weak but because mech openings are extremely vulnerable. Pro players will study opponents before matches and can spot weaknesses in mech builds that they can abuse (they can use blink stalker, waprism timings ect). This is why pros dont use mech because they know they know they can suffer easy build order losses.
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't. If you just ladder casually or play with friends: why cant you use mech? A maxed army of thors hellions and ghosts absolutely wrecks protoss in late game. If you can slowly build to this army and not die to timing attacks or harass builds then you should be in really good shape for the late game. In fact i usually take my third around the same time as bio builds and i feel much more confident taking 4ths or 5ths. Basically if the protoss doesn't harass you heavily or catch you offguard with an early all in, your pretty much going to roll his army(providing you macro and micro well ofcourse). Mech is crazy awesome in late game =D
This. I also prefer Thors for some Thor-based biomech. Marine/Thor/Banshee/Raven is a great composition, and Strike Cannons one-shot Colossi, Immortals, and Archons. Also the high DPS of Thors and Banshees is not nullified by Zealot Armor, so mass Chargelot compositions do get destroyed. PDD prevents Stalkers from being a threat for the most part, and Colossi can be dealt with via Banshees if they are kiting, but if they are not kiting the Strike Cannons will wipe them out. Thors also laugh at Storm.
In my opinion thors are not as useful late game because of feedback and immortals. If I built up thors early game aside from defense they would be for an early timing not for a late game push.
I think the marauder is just to effective against toss and mech doesn't have anything as good in comparison to make it completely viable. So I think the warhound in HotS might make this easier depending on cost/tier level etc.
I have found that bio-mech is better or at least easier to use than standard mech. Against Protoss I go Marauder/Banshee midgame and Maurader/Banshee/Battlecruiser late game.
Marauder/Banshee has very good battle synergy, you get the mobility of bio and most of the power of mech. Battlecruisers are mostly for tanking for the rest of your army and to yamoto high priority targets.
On February 20 2012 00:30 tom_baburger wrote: In my opinion thors are not as useful late game because of feedback and immortals. If I built up thors early game aside from defense they would be for an early timing not for a late game push.
Feedback isn't very good if you have ghosts out. You can either emp the thors which is pretty easy or emp the templar. Even if the feedbacks go off its not so bad cuz you have scvs repairing.
To your other point i heavily disagree. I find early timings with thors are not that strong cuz you havent reached critical mass yet. Thors are a late game investment and you want to mass them to build your deathball. The earliest i push with them is about 150 supply (around 13-15 min), but its actually stronger to max out and take more bases.
Mass immortals is the best response for the protoss but it is by no means a hard counter. The only time i lost to immortals is when the guy went 3 robo off 2 base and literally didn't make another unit. Even then if it was't for his concave i would have beat him i think.
Ghosts and ravens are used for EMP and seeker missile - these two moves do huge burst damage to late game Protoss death balls. Tanks clean up whatever's left, and thors tank it until the seeker missiles hit. It's really dependent on scanning the protoss army and sieging up in time, as well as getting EMPs and seeker missiles off before feedbacks hit. I've found, though, that with good EMPs and seeker missiles you can completely destroy a protoss army and be very cost-efficient.
Very interesting post. I too have become interested in using mech in TvP. However, I don't see how you can go pure mech out the door. A 4-gate will straight up demolish what you have here. Even a 3-gate should win, let alone a 3-gate 1-robo. How do you deal with those? I'm assuming you 2rax if you scout gateway pressure?
The two gas at 14 doesn't make any sense ... if you're going to wait until factory is finished, you should just gas at 13 (or even 12, before rax, for a factory as soon as rax completes) and put three guys on right away, and build the second gas while your factory is underway.
Avilo has a great video on why TvP mech is not considered viable:
He brings up many interesting facts about why Mech is generally a bad idea vs Toss. I really recommend that you guys watch at least a part of the video.
I'm going to try not to bash Avilo in this reply, he's far better than I am, he's done a lot more research then I have, and he could probably beat me 100 times out of 100 if we played.
BUT
I've watched his streams and listened to his rants and I really think he hasn't done much to explore mech fully. I watched a particular game on his stream about 2-3 days ago where he was blindly rolling out with his tanks (a mistake any meching Terran makes at least once a week ) and the Protoss caught him unsieged, blinked into the rolling tank line, and shortly made quick work of the tanks.
The next part was what killed me. Live, on his stream, his response was "See? This is why mech will never work vs. Toss."
He then proceeded to rant for about 20 minutes about how this perfectly illustrated how mech isn't even an option anymore.
Well, I have a lot of problems with this. 1.) He never scanned, scouted, or even attempted to know where the Protoss army was prior to unsieging and moving. 2.) He literally has only tanks. No ghosts, hellions, vikings, thors, nothing. Just a huge tank line. (Hello Void Ray)
Mech isn't what lost that, poor composition, bad intel (no idea where the army was), and a blind move are what caused that to fail. If that's how you want to play mech then I agree, you should give it up because that will never work.
Mech is hard in a different kind of way. That silly mistake of being caught rolling out is NO DIFFERENT then me walking a bio ball through a choke and getting stormed. One bad move and me not knowing where my opponent was, and all of a sudden my army is getting wrecked in the blink of an eye.
Anyone who says 'Mech doesn't work' is very short-sighted. Are you saying I can't sit back, make one unit, and A+move my opponent? Yes, then if that's your definition of mech you are correct: mech will never work.
However if I scout my opponent, know where his army is, and make the proper adjustments mech is just as viable and has some strengths that bio doesn't have.
Saying 'I built 30 tanks and couldn't win so it doesn't work' is along the lines of saying 'I made 100 marines and walked into their base and that didn't work.' Of course that didn't work. Where are the medivacs? Where are the marauders? Why no ghosts? You saw collosi, you need vikings with your bio ball.
Same goes for mech. You need hellions, you occasionally need thors. Vikings still need to counter collosus. Ghosts still need to snipe HTs and EMP Immortals. Ravens with PDD's can literally change the entire course of the battle as well. You can't mass one unit and expect to win the game no matter what unit you choose. It's the composition that you build that makes the difference, and mech needs support units too. Ravens and ghosts should be the medivacs of mech.
Mech isn't supposed to be the 'easier' way to play Terran. In some respects it's a lot harder (you need to plan how to cover yourself more when moving out since you're less mobile,, etc). But if people would devote time into the style I think you'll start to see more and more that it's very viable. A few months ago everyone said this style would never work. Now Jjakji, MKP, BeastyQT and a handful of other people are starting to mix in mech and all of a sudden the opinion is changing.
Mech can be viable before Heart of the Swarm, and we're starting to see that more and more each day.
I've been obsessing over Mech TvP the past week or so, so I'm just going to share all the things I've seen that seem to be 'truths' in a Mech V Protoss game, in chronological order. This is using the Mech TvP opening seen in The Day9 Daily #396 by VileIllusion/Lastshadow. So far, its the most optimized opening that can transition to Mech I've seen. It's really good at holding all-ins, and gives you a shot at doing some damage. Not amazingly economical though.
Okay so first, the single most important thing you can do, at any point in the game, is to force Stalkers. Stalkers are horrible against Mech (really, against Terran in general), and they cost 50 gas. Use banshees to force Stalkers. Use Hellions to force Stalkers (or just lol if they warp in Zealots), and in the late game use Battle Cruisers to force Stalkers. Now to the list:
1) Thors are better than Tanks early game. Thors don't need numbers to be strong, especially with Mass Repair. A lot of all ins can't out DPS mass repair. Tanks in small numbers simply don't pack enough punch against all-ins, and I don't have the production to get a meaningful number of them out. I can't (safely) expand AND get up the production for tanks to defend that expansion.
2) From Marine/Thor into Mech for the midgame. I transition from Marine and Thor production as soon as I know I'm safe from any 2 base timing/allin. This is around 3 Thors and 16 Marines - Banshees can scout and control the map just to make sure. Nothing is worse than switching around all your tech right when they move out. Tanks will help me take my third, and Hellions are great for harassing their third, so it makes a lot of sense to start their production at the same time.
3) Reacting to Protoss Tech: Against a Protoss getting Templar I've found you basically have to get Ghosts. Both Casters basically behave the same in Mech vs Protoss. They just deal outright damage with EMP or Feedback, but IMO Ghosts have the edge. First off, you can Snipe/EMP the Templar but you can also EMP your own units just in case you need to. I think this is a really good move when you are attacking and know you are about to have an engagement. I like to get 8-10 Ghosts and stop there. If they are going Colossus tech first, then I think adding a second Starport for more banshees is the answer. Stalker/Colossus is absolutely terrible in a straight up fight. Tanks do a ton of damage to both, and Colossus stand right over the Stalkers which is horrible with the splash damage.
Creating your maxed composition: This is the part where a lot of Mech vs P players generally go "Mech doesn't work vs Protoss". In my experience, pure Mech simply doesn't work against a Protoss who can get to a maxed army with 3/3 upgrades, and 20 some gateways. The problem isn't Colossus, Immortals, or HT, it's just how well mass gateway units with Charge and Blink can deal with a Mech army because of warp in. Sure, you can win the 200/200 fight, but then you might not do so well in the 150/180 fight. And then you are really dead in the next 100/150 fight. And because of warp in, you never even got the opportunity to do any real damage. So when you get your 5th and 6th gas, I think it's really important to add Battle Cruisers to force Stalkers. 3/3 Stalkers deal with Banshees too easily in too few numbers. After the 200/200 engagement, you will have lost a lot of Hellions, Banshees, and Thors. The main units that will be alive will be the units who were in the back: Siege Tanks and Ghosts. A ton of Chargelots usually do really good against what is remaining. With Battlecruisers, which will always be left over after a battle (Base 3 armor FTW) the Protoss has to warp in Stalkers.
So are perfect maxed Composition looks like this (against Gateway/Colossus/HT/Archon/Immortal armies): 8-12 Tanks (~30 supply) for Stalkers, Colossus, Immortals (after EMP). 4 Thors (24 supply), and 16 Hellions (32 supply) for Chargelots, General DPS, and to tank damage. Shots from Immortals or Stalkers on Hellions are wasted shots. 8 Ghosts for extremely obvious reasons (16 supply). And the rest of your supply should be in Battlecruisers, the more the merrier. You don't want any Banshees. They do basically half the DPS, and have nowhere near the staying power of Battlecruisers. IMO, there isn't a realistic Protoss composition that can even begin to touch this composition.
Upgrades: This is something I haven't figured out at all, I just sort of do what makes sense at the time. I have been going for the quick +1 Mech Armor with Marine/Thor. Then I throw down my second Armory as the +1 Armor finishes (and I'm switching to Tank/Hellion) and go for +1 Mech Attack and +1 Ship weapons if they wen't Colossus or +2 Mech Armor if they went Templar - because when going Templar the Protoss will often dump their excess minerals into Zealots and usually Charge because they have the tech. Mech armor is amazing against Zealots. After this I stick to upgrading Ship Weapons and Ship Armor.
I love to see players trying new things and being innovative and all, but there's a HUGE problem with this:
You always want to research vehicle weapons unless you scout an immortal bust then research vehicle armor (this is because thors gain more from armor against robo units then they do from weapons).
Uh, Immortals do 50 damage to armored units, and Thors have a base defense of 1. Getting an armor upgrade will reduce Immortal damage to 48 per shot. That's beyond pathetic. And if the Protoss player has Colossi? IMHO attack upgrades scale so much better in that you can kill Colossi faster (ideally) so they get less shots off because the armor, again, isn't going to reduce damage that much. What you should have said is that the armor upgrade is good if your opponent is going, say, mass zealot/chargelot because armor upgrades scale very well against zealots, or even gateway units in general. But again, this would only be beneficial if your Thors are "tanking" damage and not your hellions or marines or whatever else. And ideally you should be getting even a small number of ghosts late-game for the ever crucial EMP, especially if your opponent is going HT (which he probably should be if not mass Immortal). Just some food for thought.
On March 02 2012 00:09 Norseman wrote: I'm going to try not to bash Avilo in this reply, he's far better than I am, he's done a lot more research then I have, and he could probably beat me 100 times out of 100 if we played.
BUT
I've watched his streams and listened to his rants and I really think he hasn't done much to explore mech fully.
Sounds very interesting, can you link some replays? And what league is this btw?
I've been trying a similar playstyle lately, I think battlecruisers can be a very good adittion in TvP. Instead of tanks im favoring a more air focused army with marines and thors. For the opening i used mvp's 2base tank push (basically 1rax fe into fac and 2 reactored rax, push with 2-3 tanks). Wich can deal huge damage to the Protoss (but also fail miserably :/). Usually you can contain them for a while so i can get a 3rd and 2 starports up.
Havent really played this enough and against adequate competent protosses to evaluate its viability though.
I can but I am only in diamond now that I switch to mech in every match up from being a low master Z, it is quite the change lol. If you're still interested in mid-diamond replays ill find some
I was getting crushed in almost every 200/200 late game mech vs P game unless I got the perfect engagement in late game when the Protoss got 3/3 upgrades, and I found the BC is necessary and is the anchor of the final composition.
How long do you stay producing marines? You must upgrade them right? The only success I've had with the 3-4 Thor/Marine (unupgraded)/Banshee/Raven push is when my Banshees get a ton of kills, or they invest too much in Pheonix/Void rays (by that I mean like 5 Phoenix or more). But I stopped using that and switching to Tanks and Hellions a lot sooner like I said in my guide. I think it just allows me to take a faster third and punish (with hellions/dropship/banshee) a faster third by my opponent.
What does your preferred 2 base composition look like? What about 3 base? What about just your ideal composition?
Oh yeah, and what league are you in, if you don't mind me asking?
As a high master T meching every single game : -I keep producing marine out of 1 reactored barracks (i open 111 exp) until ~~10 min, then i put my 2nd fact on the reactor to get hellion -Uppgrading marines isn't needed for a mech army. Uppgrade them if you're going for a biomech army
-Usually on 2 bases,the best things to get is thor/hellion/banshee in my opinion
-On 3 bases,add tanks and ghosts. On 4 bases,i'll start to add BC and raven
-My ideal army lategame is a good number of tanks (8 being a minimum, 15 is good), some ravens (4-5, maybe more if he's going mass air) for PDD/HSM, a few thors (always good to have these guys in your armys), good number of BC (10 BC with tank and raven support is stupidly insane), ghosts (8-10 usually. Too much is overkill, but too few can kill you if he can get too much feedbacks before you can EMP, or any stupid thing like that), and then fill remaining supply with hellions/vikings/banshees
On March 11 2012 12:01 Lyyna wrote: As a high master T meching every single game : -I keep producing marine out of 1 reactored barracks (i open 111 exp) until ~~10 min, then i put my 2nd fact on the reactor to get hellion -Uppgrading marines isn't needed for a mech army. Uppgrade them if you're going for a biomech army
-Usually on 2 bases,the best things to get is thor/hellion/banshee in my opinion
-On 3 bases,add tanks and ghosts. On 4 bases,i'll start to add BC and raven
-My ideal army lategame is a good number of tanks (8 being a minimum, 15 is good), some ravens (4-5, maybe more if he's going mass air) for PDD/HSM, a few thors (always good to have these guys in your armys), good number of BC (10 BC with tank and raven support is stupidly insane), ghosts (8-10 usually. Too much is overkill, but too few can kill you if he can get too much feedbacks before you can EMP, or any stupid thing like that), and then fill remaining supply with hellions/vikings/banshees
Why Vikings or Banshees? DPS:Supply ratio-wise they do only a couple more damage than a BC, and with upgrades they actually do less DPS. Combine that with an insanely smaller staying power and is it even worth it? I would think just more BFH, because I realized the best way a Protoss can deal with this Mech/Sky deathball is to clear out all the tanks in one engagement and the they are much better off to clear the air because their Stalkers are safe. And usually the only way to do that is Chargelots.
Vikings if he's getting a bunch of VR ,in case i cant mass ravens with HSM or thors (for example if he's only getting a small amount of uppgraded VR with a huge ground army). Banshee because you can use them with cloack to pick pylons,assimilators, HT behind his army,etc. And also because their dps is really good for their cost, so if i'm tight in gaz . . why not
And well, in late game,that's the point of getting that tank/ghost/BC/Raven army (with,as said, some thors,hellions,vikings,banshees). With the insane dps of that army,even a maxed chargelot force will have a really hard time killing all the tanks, and even if he succeed, he's trading a billion of chargelots for . .well, like 15 tanks, 10 hellions,and 3 4 thors . . he still has to deal all the ghosts (cloacked, and observers are easy to destroy), BC, full energy ravens,etc . . before your tank reprod come on the field.
The mass chargelot problem has never been a problem for me.I just respond with more BC/Raven to force him to getting AA, which can be air (VR getting shred by HSM, carriers by BC + ghosts + HSM), stalkers (tanks + ravens), or archons (ghosts + tanks),and if possible (which is often the case. 15 orbitals every game ftw) i also add PF/supply walls ( and even auto-turrets if my ravens have enough energy) , so he just cant get to my tanks . .
Right so you just get the Viking/Banshee if you can't get the Battlecruiser for some reason, that's all I was wondering about. Because in every situation, even against Void Rays, getting Battlecruisers are just stronger for their supply in both DPS and armor/health. I still think its better to just get BFH and not even "waste" the gas on Banshees or Vikings and use it on Battlecruisers when you can.
Your point about using Tanks + Ravens to deal with Stalkers was exactly my point about the Chargelot situation. You misunderstood me there. I wasn't saying I have a hard time dealing with Chargelots, only that the strongest strategy I have seen vs this style is to wipe the ground army out, mostly with Chargelot, and then win with warped in Mass Stalkers. Obviously they need a huge bank in this situation, and that isn't always the case, only saying that this is the strongest strategy I have faced. Nothing with VR's or Immortals or anything techy like that is scary IMO.
We use very similiar compositions for our TvP's, just one more question, when do you get Ravens with HSM. I only keep 1 or 2 Ravens around for PDD, but don't prioritize HSM over Thors, Banshees early on, Tanks, Ghosts, or Battlecruisers. When do you squeeze that in? And do you get the starting energy as well? I have been lucky enough in all my games so far that I am killing them as I take my fourth so I never even need to get it, but that's the only time that makes sense to me that I would, if we had reached that sort of "passive" late game scenario.
I usually try to keep alive my raven got from my 111 Opening, and i'll try to not add ravens until i'm able to get my first 'good max' (like when i'm on 4/5 bases, starting to sac scv and get orbitals, i'll at that point start to get ravens and BC). I get the starting energy only if i feel i do have enough gas, HSM is the most important uppgrade to get. But if i see he's getting bunch of VR in 'early lategame' or stalkers, i'll not hesitate to get 3/4 ravens on 3 bases for example
edit : saw your edit. Yeah , i misunderstood a bit. Imo the best strat for the toss is to get a MS, good vortex on the tank , and have a good mix of everything . . but that rely on the T being slow on EMP. In fact i've nearly never lost with that lategame army in a classic situation
I feel like the main reason this works at a non pro level is that as the Terran you're going to go play a large number of games Meching vs Protoss where as the Protoss you're playing has likely played less than 10 games vs full Mech. Rather than it being solid it works because the Protoss doesn't know how to react.
A win is a win though so it doesn't really matter I guess,
On March 11 2012 12:39 Seraphone wrote: I feel like the main reason this works at a non pro level is that as the Terran you're going to go play a large number of games Meching vs Protoss where as the Protoss you're playing has likely played less than 10 games vs full Mech. Rather than it being solid it works because the Protoss doesn't know how to react.
A win is a win though so it doesn't really matter I guess,
I used to agreed with that, but i'm starting to play more and more high lvl players,and well,even some of these people who already saw mech in TvP (hey goody :D) can have some problem fighting it.
And also, the 'don't know how to react' point isn't always good, because when you've done a good number of games with mech, you have of course encounter some people able to react in a correct way
On March 11 2012 12:32 Lyyna wrote: I usually try to keep alive my raven got from my 111 Opening, and i'll try to not add ravens until i'm able to get my first 'good max' (like when i'm on 4/5 bases, starting to sac scv and get orbitals, i'll at that point start to get ravens and BC). I get the starting energy only if i feel i do have enough gas, HSM is the most important uppgrade to get. But if i see he's getting bunch of VR in 'early lategame' or stalkers, i'll not hesitate to get 3/4 ravens on 3 bases for example
edit : saw your edit. Yeah , i misunderstood a bit. Imo the best strat for the toss is to get a MS, good vortex on the tank , and have a good mix of everything . . but that rely on the T being slow on EMP. In fact i've nearly never lost with that lategame army in a classic situation
Do you expand very liberally with this Strat? Like how fast do you take 4 bases given everything went smoothly? And do you take bases 'out of your way' and simply defend them with Planetaries + Turrets? What units do you send to defend them, your whole army? Or do you just trade a base for a base? Or do you just get in a good position so that he cannot leave the base of yours he killed without losing his army (this is what I've been trying to do when I don't catch them on the way to one of my bases)? I've also only been expanding to bases that are "on the way" though, and perhaps I've underestimated my ability to take far away expansions. For example, on Antiga, I will just take the natural 3, and then the 4th in the middle while establishing a position and cutting him off from expansions, and then going for the kill. I'm sorry I have sooooo many questions. Would you be willing to give me some replays of your Mech PvT. I'd be interested in any of them: games you lose to early pressure, games you win with early pressure (hopefully I understand why that pressure worked), same goes for midgame scenarios win/lose, interesting Protoss compositions to see how you dealt with them, and all games that went into the late game I would love to see. Basically all your TvP replays! lol thanks so much if you can do this! I feel I have a lot to learn but I really enjoy Mech in every matchup - especially TvP because its so un-figured out. :DDDD
@Seraphone - That's a valid point, but that's how the metagame develops for any strategy. One side figures out how to stop X, and the other makes adjustments and it goes back and forth and back and forth. You might "feel like" Protoss hasn't figured out how to stop this style because they don't see it, but just the same, whatever a Protoss can do to solidly play against it, Terrans haven't been able to make adjustments to weaknesses Protoss might find. It's a trip down the rabbit hole to dismiss something for the reason you gave IMHO.
You should add "production/reinforcement time" to the list of weaknesses mech has.
It's very unforgiving in this way. If you lose your main army and you haven't done a significant amount of damage to their main production the game is pretty much over. Mech armies take forever to replace while Protoss' Warp Gate mechanic allows them to rebuild their army very easily.
On March 11 2012 12:01 Lyyna wrote: As a high master T meching every single game : -I keep producing marine out of 1 reactored barracks (i open 111 exp) until ~~10 min, then i put my 2nd fact on the reactor to get hellion -Uppgrading marines isn't needed for a mech army. Uppgrade them if you're going for a biomech army
-Usually on 2 bases,the best things to get is thor/hellion/banshee in my opinion
-On 3 bases,add tanks and ghosts. On 4 bases,i'll start to add BC and raven
-My ideal army lategame is a good number of tanks (8 being a minimum, 15 is good), some ravens (4-5, maybe more if he's going mass air) for PDD/HSM, a few thors (always good to have these guys in your armys), good number of BC (10 BC with tank and raven support is stupidly insane), ghosts (8-10 usually. Too much is overkill, but too few can kill you if he can get too much feedbacks before you can EMP, or any stupid thing like that), and then fill remaining supply with hellions/vikings/banshees
You open 111 exp in TvP? In high masters...? I presume you do put on a lot of pressure maybe taking out protoss second base, killing probes or something, because 111 opening into expand should be terrible vs a decent protoss. I would love to see some replays of this.
On March 11 2012 12:01 Lyyna wrote: As a high master T meching every single game : -I keep producing marine out of 1 reactored barracks (i open 111 exp) until ~~10 min, then i put my 2nd fact on the reactor to get hellion -Uppgrading marines isn't needed for a mech army. Uppgrade them if you're going for a biomech army
-Usually on 2 bases,the best things to get is thor/hellion/banshee in my opinion
-On 3 bases,add tanks and ghosts. On 4 bases,i'll start to add BC and raven
-My ideal army lategame is a good number of tanks (8 being a minimum, 15 is good), some ravens (4-5, maybe more if he's going mass air) for PDD/HSM, a few thors (always good to have these guys in your armys), good number of BC (10 BC with tank and raven support is stupidly insane), ghosts (8-10 usually. Too much is overkill, but too few can kill you if he can get too much feedbacks before you can EMP, or any stupid thing like that), and then fill remaining supply with hellions/vikings/banshees
You open 111 exp in TvP? In high masters...? I presume you do put on a lot of pressure maybe taking out protoss second base, killing probes or something, because 111 opening into expand should be terrible vs a decent protoss. I would love to see some replays of this.
Can you be more specific in your language, it's impossible for anybody to learn anything from what you are saying. Could you describe what his reactor rax/tech lab fact/tech lab Starport is not safe against? Like, what build are you saying would crush it? Or what build are you saying would have a huge economic lead against it? It would be awesome if you could keep talking in specifics like this instead of how you are talking now.
ZjiublingZ : Yes, i do expand a lot with this strat,and i also get a lots of orbitals. I try usually to get a 4th by 15 minutes, while having usually 2 to 3 PF (3th, 4th, and sometimes 1 in the middle of the map), and 4/5 orbitals. Massing orbitals is imo the key, as you can mass scan (total map control) / mules (enjoy 5K mineral income). I do usualy send the hellion/banshee/bc/raven to defend harassment (number depending of what is attacking and where,leaving my tanks in the middle to hold (this is why getting a PF in the middle is good : he cant engage 10+tanks protected by a PF cost effectively) . I also do use mass sensor towers (like 1 or 2 / base) to spot everything that can be a threat.
If u want i'll give u my replay packs and a link to my stream, so you can see how do i mech in 'first person view'. (if you want to see me loosing, better to look at my stream, as i only include my wins in my replays pack. I'm a bit bm when loosing to protoss, because most of them do not have the skill they should have at this level, and when i loose,it's usually because of a terrible error like forgetting BF, not scouting fast 3rd,etc . . my 'non-stupid loss' vs Mech are usually versus big 2 bases semi allinish chargelot/archon/immortal push with mass uppgrades,as they come during that hard timing when i've to secure my 4th (if i didn't scout the lack of 3rd from his side) while having only a few ghosts and no BC. This is in fact why i started to get middle map PF)
Vindicare605 : that's the poing of getting an army far better than his. If he has to loose all his army to destroy half of yours, his mass production his pointless has he'll at least need to wait a 2nd warp wave to remax, and by that time you can get a hellion/tank reprod for example.
][Primarch][ : i don't really see your point here? If you are talking about safety , 111 is probably the safest possible thing. And in most case, if the toss try to cheese, just 311 allin him back. About expansion : i hate the current mindset of 'omg if i don't have an expansion at 5 min i'm dead §§§'. Kind of stupid. If i spot the toss FE i just cut units production, and plant down my CC like 1 or 2 Minutes after his nexus in case of a 1 gate FE. I usually don't harass (2 not cloacked banshees). In fact that's what of the main caracteristic of my play : i do never harass,and nearly never make an offensive move, in any matchup. My play is all about getting my ultimate lategame defensive position.
On March 11 2012 12:01 Lyyna wrote: As a high master T meching every single game : -I keep producing marine out of 1 reactored barracks (i open 111 exp) until ~~10 min, then i put my 2nd fact on the reactor to get hellion -Uppgrading marines isn't needed for a mech army. Uppgrade them if you're going for a biomech army
-Usually on 2 bases,the best things to get is thor/hellion/banshee in my opinion
-On 3 bases,add tanks and ghosts. On 4 bases,i'll start to add BC and raven
-My ideal army lategame is a good number of tanks (8 being a minimum, 15 is good), some ravens (4-5, maybe more if he's going mass air) for PDD/HSM, a few thors (always good to have these guys in your armys), good number of BC (10 BC with tank and raven support is stupidly insane), ghosts (8-10 usually. Too much is overkill, but too few can kill you if he can get too much feedbacks before you can EMP, or any stupid thing like that), and then fill remaining supply with hellions/vikings/banshees
You open 111 exp in TvP? In high masters...? I presume you do put on a lot of pressure maybe taking out protoss second base, killing probes or something, because 111 opening into expand should be terrible vs a decent protoss. I would love to see some replays of this.
Can you be more specific in your language, it's impossible for anybody to learn anything from what you are saying. Could you describe what his reactor rax/tech lab fact/tech lab Starport is not safe against? Like, what build are you saying would crush it? Or what build are you saying would have a huge economic lead against it? It would be awesome if you could keep talking in specifics like this instead of how you are talking now.
111 openings without harassing the protoss is useless and you will be far behind if u play a decent opponent. Or maybe this is the new super-build-opening in TvP but the progamers don't not have the metagame skill that some low level players who does these kind of openings have, derp.
Why don't you first back up what you're saying by telling us WHAT will make us so far behind by opening 111 expo and,as i said, cutting units if the toss FE to expand ourself ?
You're still being really vague and not actually saying anything. Instead of saying "You will be far behind to a decent opponent", please state what a Protoss would do that would put you far behind, and exactly why you are far behind.
@Lyyna
Yeah I'd love to just have a link to vods on your stream because I'm just as interested in how this style loses as I am how it wins, because obviously neither of us is going to be playing it perfectly. Link your replay packs too though, I would like to watch those as well.
Mech is TvP is my favorite strategy in ladder game, cause in late game it is quite strong against protoss army, even the protoss player have some void rays and carriers.
But my opening is different to you, I'd like to make 6-8 marines and 2 siege tank first if protoss didn't make a expansion, and I don't build a stargate in the early game. And I don't understand why you want a raven so early, because I think that the immortals and void rays ( if protoss uses a 3 gate 1 robo or starport all-in rush ) are the greatest threat to a Mech terran in the early game.
On March 12 2012 07:28 SnowCat wrote: Mech is TvP is my favorite strategy in ladder game, cause in late game it is quite strong against protoss army, even the protoss player have some void rays and carriers.
But my opening is different to you, I'd like to make 6-8 marines and 2 siege tank first if protoss didn't make a expansion, and I don't build a stargate in the early game. And I don't understand why you want a raven so early, because I think that the immortals and void rays ( if protoss uses a 3 gate 1 robo or starport all-in rush ) are the greatest threat to a Mech terran in the early game.
Anyway, it's a good guide!
Early raven is great to deflect DT, sniping obs to avoid blink in base, helps a lots defending vs stalkers and banshees too . . .and auto turret also does a lot of damage
On March 11 2012 12:01 Lyyna wrote: As a high master T meching every single game : -I keep producing marine out of 1 reactored barracks (i open 111 exp) until ~~10 min, then i put my 2nd fact on the reactor to get hellion -Uppgrading marines isn't needed for a mech army. Uppgrade them if you're going for a biomech army
-Usually on 2 bases,the best things to get is thor/hellion/banshee in my opinion
-On 3 bases,add tanks and ghosts. On 4 bases,i'll start to add BC and raven
-My ideal army lategame is a good number of tanks (8 being a minimum, 15 is good), some ravens (4-5, maybe more if he's going mass air) for PDD/HSM, a few thors (always good to have these guys in your armys), good number of BC (10 BC with tank and raven support is stupidly insane), ghosts (8-10 usually. Too much is overkill, but too few can kill you if he can get too much feedbacks before you can EMP, or any stupid thing like that), and then fill remaining supply with hellions/vikings/banshees
You open 111 exp in TvP? In high masters...? I presume you do put on a lot of pressure maybe taking out protoss second base, killing probes or something, because 111 opening into expand should be terrible vs a decent protoss. I would love to see some replays of this.
also in this website there is a guy on gm ranked 30 or around that, that still opens 1-1-1 and go into bio, I wonder who gave you the info that going 1-1-1 will make you go behind
http://www.twitch.tv/phxgaming it's my team stream, so me and all my team mates stream on it. I usually say here : http://eu.battle.net/sc2/fr/forum/topic/3389262553?page=3 when i stream. Ok,it's the french forum,but i'll try to make my stream announcement in english too (i guess there is a thread for the stream here on tl too, cant remember which one)
Didnt GoOdy abandon mech TvP? If he given up mech TvP, what right can you guy say about mech being viable. He probably plays mech TvP to death with every possibility and tried to make it work but couldnt. I think the blue flame nerf was pretty much the nail in the coffin. Of course if yall can show atleast Grand Master lvl replay of mech based TvP as evidences then that be good enough.
I think I heard that he abandon mech TvP a while ago in an interview maybe a little bit after that BF nerf if i remember correctly.
EDIT: Will be keeping eye on lyyna stream and replays.
I think Mech is "viable" in the sense that it's good for a curveball to throw in during a series. Part of the fun of the game is trying things that shouldn't work and attempting to make them work anyway.
On March 12 2012 07:28 SnowCat wrote: Mech is TvP is my favorite strategy in ladder game, cause in late game it is quite strong against protoss army, even the protoss player have some void rays and carriers.
But my opening is different to you, I'd like to make 6-8 marines and 2 siege tank first if protoss didn't make a expansion, and I don't build a stargate in the early game. And I don't understand why you want a raven so early, because I think that the immortals and void rays ( if protoss uses a 3 gate 1 robo or starport all-in rush ) are the greatest threat to a Mech terran in the early game.
Anyway, it's a good guide!
Early raven is great to deflect DT, sniping obs to avoid blink in base, helps a lots defending vs stalkers and banshees too . . .and auto turret also does a lot of damage
Thanks for your reminding! I nearly forget Dts, perhaps I rarely see a protoss using them. And sniping protoss obs is quite good, a thor and a raven can make up a team to stop protoss player's scout. In ladder maps like Antiga Shipyard, protoss can't even see anything in terran main base!
Didnt GoOdy abandon mech TvP? If he given up mech TvP, what right can you guy say about mech being viable. He probably plays mech TvP to death with every possibility and tried to make it work but couldnt. I think the blue flame nerf was pretty much the nail in the coffin. Of course if yall can show atleast Grand Master lvl replay of mech based TvP as evidences then that be good enough.
I think I heard that he abandon mech TvP a while ago in an interview maybe a little bit after that BF nerf if i remember correctly.
EDIT: Will be keeping eye on lyyna stream and replays.
Yes goody stopped TvP mech, but in my opinion (he might come here and say i'm totally wrong) his mech style was relying a lot of BFH, for harassing, killing chargelots, and 'buffering' immortals/colossi shots, so the BFH nerf basically kiled this. I personnally use more like a mech/air style, relying on the huge synergy between BC/raven and tank/ghost in lategame, and in midgame chargelots litterraly melt to banshees and few hellions,and tanks/thors can clean the rest
GoOdy style resembled how sc1 mech. He played mech how it has always and has been suppose to be traditionally played based on sc1. Your unit combination seems like it very gas heavy. From what I know is that Thor + BC+Ghost has always made the ultimate death ball that terran can make but getting there is extremely hard. Maxing out on these 3 units completely over powers protoss. The only problems is is that banshee does 2 attack, so if toss get +armor upgrade, which they usually favor over attack upgrade anyways, then your banshee do signicantly less damage. This mean to make banshee efficient, you need +attack air upgrade if you want them to be effective in your unit composition. Overall, it seems like a very gas heavy build your trying to go for. I am not saying it bad because if you can show cased (replay) a way how to get into that sort of death then it would be pretty good.
I think we can all confirm that the sc1 style mech is pretty much unviable from GoOdy experiences.
Hey, i found some recent games (february/march) of Goody where he still used mech vs Protoss. Maybe he felt his opponent was weak enough (but if you're in a tournament, i don't see why you wouldn't try your hardest) or something, idk. Maybe he's back to mech now? I know that for a while he switched to bio.
Here are just a couple I found, from a relatively small europe tournaments (or rather, a Cup)
There is a TSL player in the top 8, so as long as it's GM+ or at semi-pro level, I think knowing that mech works at that level is good enough for almost everyone here. (And if any wants to go pro, i'm sure it'll be fixed by HotS anyways, so it's not like time spent learning mech will be too wasted)
There is a korean mech player who beat slayers_brown (though it was more cus he defended a void proxy well, but still) His name:뽀통령 Old name: 파동몬
There is someone I know komprezzor who is top masters on KR and also plays mech on it, and he showed me some interesting but solid builds.
MarineKingPrime used 뽀통령's build vs MC and beat him. No wonder he used a similar build vs Genius in the GSL, though it hit earlier (not sure why? Did he scout something that made him change? I can not figure this out. If someone can analyze and find out... that would be cool if you can share!) and with only 2 added reactor factories instead of 3 like in the replay where he used it vs MC here http://www.sc2replays.eu/show-replay-14693-0-ogsmc_p_-vs-marineking_t.html
Edit: 뽀통령 usually (always?) got a third base (sometimes hidden just for minerals, like on xel'naga -- though he does it a lot so perhaps it's not hidden, but rather a strategic position) with his build, so that's why he got 3 reactor factories instead of 2. MKP did not; he teched up and then took a later third, seeing the protoss couldn't take a third anyways, and guessing from MKP's choice it is more important to tech to make sure he can't hard counter your army (like get ghosts for immortals) than it is to have a bigger econ (having a better composition is more efficient than having 50% more econ)
IMO, playing mech is easier than Bio as long as it's not a map like tal'darim. Engaging with bio is just so hard for me. You have to kite with marauders, EMP/snipe the HT in advance, kite with viking and make sure they don't split, and while doing this you need to possibly drop protoss somewhere (and ideally, micro it) while also remaking a huge round of bio.
You need more ghosts than before but with a good engage, if you EMP everything, you will win with tanks lategame.
Thors work really well early to mid game.
As someone noted, (and thanks for doing so! I only knew of jjakji using it) there is a strong 2 base 200/200 push with thor marine banshee (i don't know why protoss have trouble defending it though? maybe it was just a new build and protoss didn't practice against it much?). Beastyqt's thor marine ghost banshee build is cool as well. Much easier than bio to micro, and much stronger in engagements.
I find that mech works pretty well on cloud and korhal. I think it worked better on xel'naga and arid, but as long as it works "OK" i'll be satisfied ^^. On korhal the lower ground is dangerous for the opponent. You can easily have the shorter defend distance than protoss on that map. If he tries to go to low ground and come up, he won't have vision anyways and you will have time to siege. Main is also easy to defend.
BFH harass is not as good, sure, but it is still pretty darn good.
As others have said, it helps a shit load if you have a wall or choke in the engagement as well! i like to make a wall of barracks before an engagement. If you wanna move or slow push, you can lift it up which gives you vision and can attract stalker fire anyways. PF are good too for key locations, but if I want to advance shortly after I use barracks to save money. I prefer them over ebay. The cost to HP is more efficient, and it takes longer to build yes but at 35 seconds, a barracks doesn't have thaat much less HP. I know 100 or 200 HP can make a big difference, but I think as long as you siege up with a wall, and get a good couple volleys after EMPing everything, you won't lose much.
And finally as others have said, air synergizes really well with mech. Mech/air combinations force protoss to react to your composition, instead of the other way. There is a bit of both I guess, but in a bio PvT, protoss will never really have to think about what they make. But with mech/air, they have to make the right amount of AA for air and make enough chargelots and immortals/colossus or carriers or whatnot for ground. As the mech player, all you need to do is scan or send a hellion into their army once in a while to check for any sudden tech switches (like to mass carrier or such), but you can make good use of factories and starports anyways, unlike in bio where your vikings become shit once you land them and might not be producing out of them if he stops making colossus.
Lastly lastly. Don't expect pure anything to work in SC2 anymore (at least, not efficiently). Terran is just designed differently now, but I say it's better (maybe its not intentional?) In SC2 you can go pure something (bio, mech, air) for a while sure but later on there's more AOE and such and splitting with micro becomes inefficient (think marines vs zerg, tanks make it much more easy unless you're automaton) and so you start adding stuff. Air, you go viking banshee maybe some raven and later BC but ghosts make it much easier when he uses HTs. TvP, you can go MM but you add medivacs and vikings (and ghosts) later to adapt to the protoss. Similarly, mech in TvP with just hellion tank thor -- sure, it works pretty good, but not in the lategame. Early game, thors with repair are really good, and there are some good tank hellion marine pushes before colossi production kicks in with range. However, I think Blizzard forcing terrans to make a larger variety of units isn't making terran really weaker, but just more flexible, making it easier to transition into a different tech tree (TvZ, you add more and more mech, and can max out on mech upgrades later on, in TvP you get ship weapons, and... though perhaps too unexplored, players like Ryung have been adding 3/3 BCs into a bio/air transition).
Edit:
lastly x3
One way to defend blink stalker harass is to build your buildings in the main in a wall (map dependent, but should work to an extent on most maps) such that the buildings form a line parallel to the cliff of the main or base or whatever, and put 1-2 tanks behind that wall. You can put depots in that wall too in case of course you want to actually get to that cliff for something. If he blinks in, surprise! He'll be shot by the 2 tanks 4 times each before the blink cooldown is over and he can blink again! If you had a sensor tower and a raven, idk maybe you can run there and throw a PDD if he tries to kill some buildings. By then you should have your hellions ready for when he blinks back out.
4 hits * 2 tanks = 8 hits... should be able to kill a few stalkers, which is quite an investment to try to harass you. (And if not, he should be left with a lot of stalkers low on HP. He can regenerate sure but as long as you EMP... suddenly they have like 40 HP left. Maybe you could even leave a ghost at home if he is doing it really frequently and/or the situation happens to call for it? You would really shred those Stalkers then. Likewise if it calls for it, you could even put 1 preemptive PDD there.)
In my opinion the simple problem with TvP is that it is based on a flawed concept: that realistically terran can confront a protoss toe-to-toe in a late-game macro situation. This doesn't work for a variety of reasons, including basic race mechanics. For one part, toss has plenty of options to take on a mech army and the problem is that each and everyone of them can cover a broad spectrum of anything "purely" mech. Such units include archons, immortals, blink stalkers, chargelots (amazingly cost effective against any tank heavy composition which is always the bulk of your dps), HT, void ray (of course very selective in situations they are useful in, but very powerful against "pure" mech) and even colossus. Simply looking at the current pool of units that's almost everything in the protoss arsenal.
A basic army composition including a decent gateway mix (or blink stalker heavy) and a bunch of immortals or colossus is good enough to take on any early/mid mech ball, and it's close to impossible to move out because the second you unsiege the toss can just take you out. All the dreamed of unit compositions including ravens, banshees, vikings, tanks, thors - are simply unrealistic (and ridiculously gas heavy) armies to have in bulk on 2 or even 3 base in the mid game. The main problem is terran's need to grab as many expansions as possible to aim for late game, leaving them very susceptible to powerful 2 base timings by protoss. The other option is for toss to simply out expand you, macro up and deflect sad hellion harass attempts with a few blink stalkers, throw out 20 gateways on 4 base and macro up 200/200 on immotal/colossus/chargelot/HT/archon and roll you over. Even if you can get a favourable trade, toss can just immediately re-max and wipe the floor with you especially because it's so hard to reproduce a mech army, as well as walk across large maps and reinforce front lines.
In an absolutely perfect scenario, a toss will get EMP'd, stalker/phoenix deflected by PDDs, chargelots smashed by hellion/tank and everything else possible wiped by tank/thor/air. The only problem with this is that when PDDs and EMPs are out, they are very often in very bad positions where the toss can just walk out, replenish his army with warp-ins and wait it out and the mech army can't do anything to take advantage of it (unless your army is already at his doorstep). Also, mech units alone are terribly weak and can't deflect multipronged attacks the way other races can do (ling/bling/spines/queens/mutalisks against marine drops, extremely efficient; blink stalker sniping medivacs/3-5 chargelots shutting down marines/HT feedback) whilst also unable to split his army and risking significantly weakening the front lines against a push. a few zealots or blink stalkers can't be stopped by mobile hellions, nor can it be efficiently dealt with by tanks (which are slow) or cloak-less banshees. A thor would but that's dedicating 300/200 to protecting your mineral line and can't quickly reinforce your front the way ling/bling can.
Regardless, the very opening is painful to execute and there is only a very limited handful of safe routes to go. One thing for sure is that if you're not going to get a raven, the second the toss spots a weak defense with an obs he will just abuse it.
Right now I honestly think the only realistic mech heavy play is iEchoic's TvP (which is biomech mm+raven/banshee) and cute thor/raven/banshee mixes with marines and scvs where your sole objective is to snipe obs and tear the toss apart with cloaked banshees. Even then these are still very thin strategies which rely heavily on a strong mid-game timing to seal the deal or face unstoppable late game toss compositions.
On March 11 2012 13:53 ][Primarch][ wrote: You open 111 exp in TvP? In high masters...? I presume you do put on a lot of pressure maybe taking out protoss second base, killing probes or something, because 111 opening into expand should be terrible vs a decent protoss. I would love to see some replays of this.
Empire.Happy opened 1/1/1 expand with cloak almost every single game he played in against Protoss for like six months straight and maintained a winning record with it until his Protoss opponents started blindly opening stargate against him. Of course, he didn't transition into mech from 1/1/1, but the opening it perfectly solid. Remember that with a cloak opening:
- The timing is such that cloak finishes just as his observer reaches your base if he opened gate core nexus gate gate robo. If he failed to make a second observer, he just loses the game. - He has to make three observers if he wants to scout you with one, or you can just kill probes where the observer isn't. - You will still get half a dozen probe kills minimum even if he has observers waiting for you because stalker DPS is so terrible. - You get to take advantage of the uncertainty by just parking your banshees in a corner of the map once it becomes damaged, and he constantly has to leave an observer behind just to deal with that 1 banshee.
All these things together mean it's a solid opening that will put you on equal economic footing with Protoss. Factor in that you will just get a free win maybe 1/5 of the time with your cloak opener and I'd recommend every Terran playing ladder open 1/1/1 cloak every single game.
The problem with mech is mobility. The problem with bio is lack of power. The soloution is to go marauder banshee midgame into marauder banshee bc ghost medivac late game. You keep most of the mobility of bio and most of the power of mech. Marauder is a much better complement to air units compared to tanks since the gas cost is much lower. It is also easier to remax compared to mech since mass marauder gives you a buffer while you build your air units.
On March 12 2012 18:25 Bommes wrote: Why is still no one talking about hellion usage in TvP?
Why do people refuse to use hellions?
Heliions to fight against what exactly? They are a great meatshield for their cost, but against chargelots, they are terrible.
On small maps they are terrible. On big maps hellions are pretty much cost efficient against very gateway unit except the archon as long as you micro them correctly, and as you can poke and drop them everywhere you pin the protoss back long enough to secure more bases than him with tank/ghost/viking, until you push out with a better economy.
Tell me again that they are terrible when I roast 10 Zealots in 1 shot the next time
The only downside of hellions is that you lack a good base of marines when your opponent decides to sneak in some VRs from somewhere. But thats nothing you can't overcome with turrets and some reactored star ports just in case, every VR or star gate in general that comes before the 10-13 minute mark is very obvious in the army count so you can prepare for it.
Hellions were considered a terrible unit in TvT (apart from the old BFH opening), and now they are one of the most stable choices in the matchup. I don't see why it shouldn't happen in TvP, because Hellions are imbalanced against HT/Sentry and pretty good against Zealot/Stalker (considering their cost), while having imba speed and being able to sneak into the eco lines very fast. I don't see how they are terrible.
@Bommes : do you mean hellions with mech or a classic bioball with some hellions mixed in? in that second case hellions are kind of terrible,you need to uppgrade air on ur armory for ur vikings and medivacs, so you'll end up with 0/0 hellions vs 3/3/3 chargelots . . add that to the fact they can't hit&run like the bioball . .
On March 12 2012 21:14 Lyyna wrote: @Bommes : do you mean hellions with mech or a classic bioball with some hellions mixed in? in that second case hellions are kind of terrible,you need to uppgrade air on ur armory for ur vikings and medivacs, so you'll end up with 0/0 hellions vs 3/3/3 chargelots . . add that to the fact they can't hit&run like the bioball . .
Hellion/Tank/Ghost/Viking is the army composition I go for with Thors mixed in if he goes low on Templar tech or if he mixes in Stargate stuff.
3/3 hellions are pretty good, even against 3/3/3 zealots (but usually you only see 3/0/3 upgrades anyway, 3/1/3 at max if the game is not 40+ minutes long).
edit: I'm not a huge fan of uploading replays to show how a strategy works if its not a replay vs. a top 20 grandmaster player or something, because replays are always situational and you are always cutting corners which you can't cut vs other/better players etc. Still, to give you an idea of my overall playstyle and how it can work out I linked a replay of one of my last TvP below. My TvPs turn surprisingly often out similar to this, although because I'm a horrible player there are still many random elements to it and as I can't play as much as I'd like to I don't know about all the exploits a Protoss can use against it (which probably exist in high numbers, after all mech in TvP is always a little bit cheesy, because so few people do it and Protosses are not used to it). There is so much to improve that I just think Hellions in TvP should be a topic, just because you can force the Protoss into a lot of unwanted army movement and you will always get probes if you constantly make Hellions, also because they are a lot better if positioned correctly than people say they are.
Again, the replay is no evidence or anything that it works, its just a clarification on how I use the hellions. Don't discuss about how the game was won or why, there were some shitty engagements from both players and overall its just bad play a lot of times. I just want to discuss why no one uses Hellions.
On March 12 2012 19:14 Bommes wrote: On small maps they are terrible. On big maps hellions are pretty much cost efficient against very gateway unit except the archon as long as you micro them correctly.
No, they are actually terribly cost inefficient against almost anything in the protoss ground arsenal. Not to mention against templar tech, one storm catching your hellions will slowly tear them apart if you don't haul scvs to mass repair. They are also more or less equivalent to marines as meat shields as they get ripped apart by colossi and chargelots with good forcefields (hence why lategame TvP is almost always pure marauder comp).
In terms of harassment, hellions are a lot worse than the standard bio comp too. In most cases when T is dropping, it will be multipronged harass with the basic goal of sniping pylons and not hitting the mineral line as it is far too easy to shut down with decent army splits and leaving a sentry and/or some stalkers back home. Hellions can't do anything except hit probes, not to mention 4 hellions will lose to 2 lone stalkers, unlike 8 marines or 4 marauders.
On March 12 2012 19:14 Bommes wrote: On small maps they are terrible. On big maps hellions are pretty much cost efficient against very gateway unit except the archon as long as you micro them correctly.
No, they are actually terribly cost inefficient against almost anything in the protoss ground arsenal. Not to mention against templar tech, one storm catching your hellions will slowly tear them apart if you don't haul scvs to mass repair. They are also more or less equivalent to marines as meat shields as they get ripped apart by colossi and chargelots with good forcefields (hence why lategame TvP is almost always pure marauder comp).
In terms of harassment, hellions are a lot worse than the standard bio comp too. In most cases when T is dropping, it will be multipronged harass with the basic goal of sniping pylons and not hitting the mineral line as it is far too easy to shut down with decent army splits and leaving a sentry and/or some stalkers back home. Hellions can't do anything except hit probes, not to mention 4 hellions will lose to 2 lone stalkers, unlike 8 marines or 4 marauders.
Storm isn't strong at all against Hellions, if you land a good storm you will have a couple of hellions at about 40-50% HP or above. Doesn't seem too bad, especially as its very easy to go forward and snipe some templars if they come too close. Just shows that you never played with Hellions or never payed attention to them, if you move them out they really don't get a lot of damage as long as you react fast enough (and thanks to auto repair you can always have a small amount of scvs on auto repair with your army and let your army heal medivac style).
I backed my statements up, you didn't do anything except go for a comparison that at least for me doesn't make a lot of sense. What do I care if 4 Hellions beat 2 Stalkers or not? Its not like they have to, 10 Hellions do fine against 8 Stalkers and they are a lot easier to produce and cost less, meaning they actually are cost efficient (they are even more cost efficient against stalkers than against chargelots from my point of view). 2 Stalkers need a lot of time to kill Hellions, so you will have plenty of time to just move them away from the Stalkers.
Why do 2-3 reactor factory 1 or 2 base "all in" builds work in GSL Code S or A if hellions are horrible against gateway units?
Your harassment point doesn't make much sense for me either. Of course I won't drop hellions to snipe pylons, why would I do that. If they leave sentries at home thanks for the free gas, I'll 2-shot them. If they split their army, nice, free map control and/or time to push, thanks.
Of course its not the magic "I win" strategy, I never said it is. Of course it has flaws. Most of it for me right now is relying on the opponent doing mistakes, because they never played against it. But your position doesn't make sense from a strategy point of view because you don't adapt to the strength of the hellion but just say its weak because its not as good as the marauder if you use it like a marauder.
About Hellions, I don't think anyone is arguing they are bad against Chargelots in a purely Hellion vs. Chargelot scenario. You can kite them forever, so either you take your time to kill the Chargelots or nobody loses anything. Your choice. Not bad.
Chargelots are very cost effective against Mech in engagements, in the sense that almost any amount of minerals you can trade for the Terran's gas is a good trade. And yes, in a final engagement, when Hellions are at the front, they will get wiped out by an equal or greater number of Chargelots, especially because of Tank splash. But that is bad army control by the Terran.
Thors should be at the front of a Mech army vs Protoss when they engage, always. You can use the hellions to draw the Chargelots 'Charge', and to tank the first few Immortal and Stalker shots while your tanks Siege. But after that you draw them behind and preferable to the sides of the Thors. 16 +1 BFH, when the Chargelots are clumping up on Thors, will evaporate them so scary fast. Armored Thors tank Chargelots amazingly well.
Hellions are also great for controlling towers, denying probe scouts, and for 'runbys'. If you have 4 Hellions tucked away for when the Protoss army moves out, they HAVE to leave units behind at each base or they are losing probes, warp ins won't cut it. Yes, there are situations that make them look horrible, there are also situations that make them look awesome. . Also, because Chargelots are so cheap and Stalkers are expensive, and Chargelots are really good for their cost, and Stalkers aren't at all, I think that Air is necessary when playing Mech. Banshees early-mid game, and then Battlecruisers when Stalker upgrades get too good. The more Stalkers he warps in a game, the better off you are. They cut into all of his tech units, and they are basically dead weight in straight up fights. More Stalkers = less Chargelots and less Tech units. In a lot of my games, they can be decided almost completely by how many Stalkers I force him to make.
On March 13 2012 12:50 ff7legend wrote: Has anyone attempted a Thor+Banshee combination... if you hit the right timing it can tear a protoss apart. unless they are 100% prepared
as you say it - thor and banshee builds are always built around timings - the simle reason beaing one unit - the HighTemplar.
i still think thor/banshee/marine/raven/viking/GHOST mixes are incredibly strong in lategame, at least in theory - the problem being that everything stays and falls with the ghost vs HT battles.
(this is theorycrafting in general, not about the specific build @ OP) in theory, the protoss has an incredibly hard time to get detection on with ravens, scans, vikings, thors and ghosts around - and both cloacked ghosts and banshees are impossible to deal without. furhtermore, thors tank a lot of dmg while marines and banshees have huge amounts of DPS - not talking about the effects of EMP.
thats how a fight CAN go. in reality, a fight is just as likely to go: observer sees ghosts, HTs snipe them, protoss moves in, feedbacks a shitton, has better upgrades (cant upgrade all 3 as terran), has observers behind his army and wins the fight. The problem is: the T army we talk about here is extremly gas-intensive - while it CAN be indestrucible, it can lose as well - and once the T army dies, its nearly impossible to replace it in time.
pretty much the same goes for mech (tank thor hellion viking) + ghost vs lategame P - while the mecharmy is stronger against any P combo, you are immobile and unable to replace your army fast enough once you lost big parts of it.
The only map in the current mappool where i see mech vs protoss being effective when played correctly, with tons of turrents, sensor towers, PFs in mid, blueflame hellion drops and rly turtleish ghostMECH is shakuras plateau.
On March 12 2012 19:14 Bommes wrote: On small maps they are terrible. On big maps hellions are pretty much cost efficient against very gateway unit except the archon as long as you micro them correctly.
No, they are actually terribly cost inefficient against almost anything in the protoss ground arsenal. Not to mention against templar tech, one storm catching your hellions will slowly tear them apart if you don't haul scvs to mass repair. They are also more or less equivalent to marines as meat shields as they get ripped apart by colossi and chargelots with good forcefields (hence why lategame TvP is almost always pure marauder comp).
In terms of harassment, hellions are a lot worse than the standard bio comp too. In most cases when T is dropping, it will be multipronged harass with the basic goal of sniping pylons and not hitting the mineral line as it is far too easy to shut down with decent army splits and leaving a sentry and/or some stalkers back home. Hellions can't do anything except hit probes, not to mention 4 hellions will lose to 2 lone stalkers, unlike 8 marines or 4 marauders.
Storm isn't strong at all against Hellions, if you land a good storm you will have a couple of hellions at about 40-50% HP or above. Doesn't seem too bad, especially as its very easy to go forward and snipe some templars if they come too close. Just shows that you never played with Hellions or never payed attention to them, if you move them out they really don't get a lot of damage as long as you react fast enough (and thanks to auto repair you can always have a small amount of scvs on auto repair with your army and let your army heal medivac style).
I backed my statements up, you didn't do anything except go for a comparison that at least for me doesn't make a lot of sense. What do I care if 4 Hellions beat 2 Stalkers or not? Its not like they have to, 10 Hellions do fine against 8 Stalkers and they are a lot easier to produce and cost less, meaning they actually are cost efficient (they are even more cost efficient against stalkers than against chargelots from my point of view). 2 Stalkers need a lot of time to kill Hellions, so you will have plenty of time to just move them away from the Stalkers.
Why do 2-3 reactor factory 1 or 2 base "all in" builds work in GSL Code S or A if hellions are horrible against gateway units?
Your harassment point doesn't make much sense for me either. Of course I won't drop hellions to snipe pylons, why would I do that. If they leave sentries at home thanks for the free gas, I'll 2-shot them. If they split their army, nice, free map control and/or time to push, thanks.
Of course its not the magic "I win" strategy, I never said it is. Of course it has flaws. Most of it for me right now is relying on the opponent doing mistakes, because they never played against it. But your position doesn't make sense from a strategy point of view because you don't adapt to the strength of the hellion but just say its weak because its not as good as the marauder if you use it like a marauder.
"Backing your statements up" on a theoretical basis is nothing better than what I am claiming so your point is null there. Your initial argument was the hellion's ability to harass effectively, which I pointed out it is far easier to deflect compared to a standard bio drop.
Secondly, you clearly haven't taken on a protoss player who has good micro control. Hellions poking back and forth to pick of templar is laughable without losing a significantly unfavourable exchange.
Regarding your point on "all-ins", there is an obvious reason why an "all-in" or powerful timing attack works. Why does a 3-1-1 all-in work with zero tech marines? Because it hits before key tech which will demolish tank/marine can be completed. That ontop of the fact that you're dedicating a significantly larger portion of your supply to a push. That applies similarly to hellions. They are about as good as zero tech marines in the mid/late game. Just like they are in TvZ. Proper tech will nullify the unit's purpose. In the case of mech, you're more or less aiming to duke it out endgame with a stronger ball than the toss ball. That doesn't work when 20 hellions will get 1 shot by 2 colossus. Just like how marines don't work because they get 1 shot by upgraded colossi. Unlike chargelots, which can take endless shots from your tanks (because they split quickly and naturally and don't take bonus splash) leaving them raw and open to the robo/archon force behind it.
Like I said, it takes so little to deflect a hellion drop that they do not need to split their army, unlike a more significant bio drop (8 stimmed marines can rip through stalkers easily if they're warped in one by one). That gives you zero map control, zero ability to push out.
10 hellions vs 8 stalkers makes no sense and is only going to be an efficient exchange if for some reason all your hellions splash everything at once, which doesn't happen. Even if you do some kind of 12 hellion drop or runby, that justifies the protoss splitting his army or pulling back or just breaking your front because you've dedicated so much to harass (1.2k minerals!).
From a strategy point of view, you are clearly speaking on theoretical grounds and optimal engagements which don't happen in a real game. You aren't going to catch 10 zealots walking around or gateway units separated so far from the main ball they get caught out by hellions, just like you don't randomly find tanks or 15/50 marines sitting in the middle of the map waiting for banelings to explode on them. I can tell you banelings can destroy marines, they're so cost effective! 2 banelings can kill 50 marines so therefore you only need banelings to pwn the marines and your 3/3 zergling will wipe the tanks. Who needs mutas? That clearly doesn't happen. T can marine split, stim and clean out your army before it reaches it. The same goes for a protoss ball.
On March 12 2012 19:14 Bommes wrote: On small maps they are terrible. On big maps hellions are pretty much cost efficient against very gateway unit except the archon as long as you micro them correctly.
No, they are actually terribly cost inefficient against almost anything in the protoss ground arsenal. Not to mention against templar tech, one storm catching your hellions will slowly tear them apart if you don't haul scvs to mass repair. They are also more or less equivalent to marines as meat shields as they get ripped apart by colossi and chargelots with good forcefields (hence why lategame TvP is almost always pure marauder comp).
In terms of harassment, hellions are a lot worse than the standard bio comp too. In most cases when T is dropping, it will be multipronged harass with the basic goal of sniping pylons and not hitting the mineral line as it is far too easy to shut down with decent army splits and leaving a sentry and/or some stalkers back home. Hellions can't do anything except hit probes, not to mention 4 hellions will lose to 2 lone stalkers, unlike 8 marines or 4 marauders.
Storm isn't strong at all against Hellions, if you land a good storm you will have a couple of hellions at about 40-50% HP or above. Doesn't seem too bad, especially as its very easy to go forward and snipe some templars if they come too close. Just shows that you never played with Hellions or never payed attention to them, if you move them out they really don't get a lot of damage as long as you react fast enough (and thanks to auto repair you can always have a small amount of scvs on auto repair with your army and let your army heal medivac style).
I backed my statements up, you didn't do anything except go for a comparison that at least for me doesn't make a lot of sense. What do I care if 4 Hellions beat 2 Stalkers or not? Its not like they have to, 10 Hellions do fine against 8 Stalkers and they are a lot easier to produce and cost less, meaning they actually are cost efficient (they are even more cost efficient against stalkers than against chargelots from my point of view). 2 Stalkers need a lot of time to kill Hellions, so you will have plenty of time to just move them away from the Stalkers.
Why do 2-3 reactor factory 1 or 2 base "all in" builds work in GSL Code S or A if hellions are horrible against gateway units?
Your harassment point doesn't make much sense for me either. Of course I won't drop hellions to snipe pylons, why would I do that. If they leave sentries at home thanks for the free gas, I'll 2-shot them. If they split their army, nice, free map control and/or time to push, thanks.
Of course its not the magic "I win" strategy, I never said it is. Of course it has flaws. Most of it for me right now is relying on the opponent doing mistakes, because they never played against it. But your position doesn't make sense from a strategy point of view because you don't adapt to the strength of the hellion but just say its weak because its not as good as the marauder if you use it like a marauder.
"Backing your statements up" on a theoretical basis is nothing better than what I am claiming so your point is null there. Your initial argument was the hellion's ability to harass effectively, which I pointed out it is far easier to deflect compared to a standard bio drop.
Secondly, you clearly haven't taken on a protoss player who has good micro control. Hellions poking back and forth to pick of templar is laughable without losing a significantly unfavourable exchange.
Regarding your point on "all-ins", there is an obvious reason why an "all-in" or powerful timing attack works. Why does a 3-1-1 all-in work with zero tech marines? Because it hits before key tech which will demolish tank/marine can be completed. That ontop of the fact that you're dedicating a significantly larger portion of your supply to a push. That applies similarly to hellions. They are about as good as zero tech marines in the mid/late game. Just like they are in TvZ. Proper tech will nullify the unit's purpose. In the case of mech, you're more or less aiming to duke it out endgame with a stronger ball than the toss ball. That doesn't work when 20 hellions will get 1 shot by 2 colossus. Just like how marines don't work because they get 1 shot by upgraded colossi. Unlike chargelots, which can take endless shots from your tanks (because they split quickly and naturally and don't take bonus splash) leaving them raw and open to the robo/archon force behind it.
Like I said, it takes so little to deflect a hellion drop that they do not need to split their army, unlike a more significant bio drop (8 stimmed marines can rip through stalkers easily if they're warped in one by one). That gives you zero map control, zero ability to push out.
10 hellions vs 8 stalkers makes no sense and is only going to be an efficient exchange if for some reason all your hellions splash everything at once, which doesn't happen. Even if you do some kind of 12 hellion drop or runby, that justifies the protoss splitting his army or pulling back or just breaking your front because you've dedicated so much to harass (1.2k minerals!).
From a strategy point of view, you are clearly speaking on theoretical grounds and optimal engagements which don't happen in a real game. You aren't going to catch 10 zealots walking around or gateway units separated so far from the main ball they get caught out by hellions, just like you don't randomly find tanks or 15/50 marines sitting in the middle of the map waiting for banelings to explode on them. I can tell you banelings can destroy marines, they're so cost effective! 2 banelings can kill 50 marines so therefore you only need banelings to pwn the marines and your 3/3 zergling will wipe the tanks. Who needs mutas? That clearly doesn't happen. T can marine split, stim and clean out your army before it reaches it. The same goes for a protoss ball.
Of course that doesn't happen against good players (as long as they know how good hellions are), but that means they run around in a big clump and its easy to control their army movement, which means you can position your tank/ghost/viking army very well which means you kind of have map control.
About that colossi 2-shotting hellion thing... You are highly theoretical there because hellions are like 3x faster than colossi. If you let the protoss storm into your army with hellion/tank you pretty much autolost the engagement right away. If you poke with your hellions on the other hand you will almost always get zealots charging after them (which is exactly what you want when you poke with the hellions) or he will draw he his colossi to the front so you can get a shot with all your vikings, which means in best case a free colossus. Being active with your army is essential, when I lose a game in TvP its either because I am too passive with my army / let my opponent get too good of a concave or because I made a stupid obvious mistake like losing too many hellions while harassing or not dealing with DTs correctly or something like that.
When do players with good micro begin on ladder? I'm working on being good enough to regularly play against opponents in GM and higher, but for that you probably have to wait another month or two. That's also because I'm hesitant to post a lot of replays right now, because there would be a lot of awkward mistakes on both sides, so it wouldn't have any value to show them. I'm not 100% sure the strategy is still good in case the Protossesget better. Maybe not, but thats what I want to find out.
Also, if you bio drop it needs twice the time to unload (if its marines) or is much harder to replace and costs gas (marauders). Also no other drop is as effective to kill workers as a hellion drop. Marines are good, but its simply no comparison. As soon as you have 1/1 upgrades (which should be around 12-15 minutes if I remember correctly) you will 2-shot workers with BFH, and if the workers run away they usually die all instead of escaping all.
About that 10 Hellion vs. 8 Stalker thing, of course it makes much more sense than your comparison, because I'm constantly active with my hellions. There is no way he can catch up (except if he has phoenixes), so I can happily run around and poke everywhere. If the Protoss decides he wants the Xel'Naga tower he thinks "Okay, if I go with my whole army he will run into my main, so I'll just send my stalkers". Wouldn't be the first time that I see that mistake.
About the counter attack thing, thats kind of true, but thats also the reason why mech is very specifically good for some maps and bad for others. If he is able to attack in huge concaves it is always hard to win against competent protosses. But no Protoss should light heartedly attack into a small ramp/a PF against tank/ghost/viking and a small amount of hellions, just because he saw 10-12 hellions on the map. Because he will lose all his workers and I will probably have a very cost effective exchange at my base, which means that I will win the game definitely if he doesn't completely overrun me right at this moment.
Its the same logic as zergling runbys, just with the difference that tank/viking/ghost is very strong in defensive positions (if you chose the position right), while zerg defensively is very strong on creep, so you can afford to run some units around. You make the opponent decide if he wants to commit to a counterattack or if he deals with the runby and wastes time with his army movement and time in which you can't get attacked and maybe even secure another base.
Also, more likely if you have 12 hellions on the map you don't want them to get cut off so you won't commit to run them into the enemy's base, because its very likely that he will come back and just kill them. The 12 hellions are not getting dropped, that doesn't make sense, actually you don't want more than 1 medivac at all the entire game (and even that not all the time, depends on the tech choice for protoss and the map), because they cost a huge amount of gas.
About backing it up, I posted a replay earlier. It is my last TvP played and not a good example because I don't use my hellions very well actually, but it at least should show the potential and should stop this senseless discussion right now.
edit: Actually I don't care that much anymore, if no one wants to discuss about hellions and everyone thinks thor/banshee/shenanigans is the way to go in TvP I'm fine with that, I don't want to convince anyone. I'm done with that
Theorycrafting is nice, but with all due respect, I don't think this means anything to higher level players.
If you're catering to the diamond and below, awesome. There are MORE than enough players you will be helping. But don't pretend it's viable at high masters/gm level.
On March 13 2012 19:14 Leargle wrote: Theorycrafting is nice, but with all due respect, I don't think this means anything to higher level players.
If you're catering to the diamond and below, awesome. There are MORE than enough players you will be helping. But don't pretend it's viable at high masters/gm level.
I'd love to see I there's a correlation between the TL posters who vehemently say mech is not viable tho and the ones that vote republican
In all seriousness, I agree with Day9. Mech tvp just needs to be explored by good players, in the same way everyone explored Bio. Bio has major on-paper weaknesses vs protoss as well, but people found ways around them. With time (or with HOTS) mech tvp will be a thing.
Maybe this was answered at some point in the thread, but why in the OP's build is he taking 2 refineries at 14 and leaving 1 scv in each? This is going to give him the same gas income as building 1 refinery and putting 2 scvs in it. If you don't need 4 workers in gas until your factory is done, why not time out the 2nd refinery so it finishes at the same time as the factory? This allows you to have more minerals earlier on, and get the expo and factory up sooner.
Or is the only purpose of taking both gasses to avoid your opponent stealing your gas? Sorry if I missed something obvious here, it just seems like taking both gasses and leaving 1 worker in each for a while is very suboptimal.
sorry but n the dia level you can pretty much do anything and win, so unless your top masters you can really show good builds. i can bio/mech or mech in dia all iw ant and win but when you get to masters thats when you really need to get a good build so might want to try more games at higher levels before trying to show soem builds
On March 13 2012 23:37 joebang wrote: sorry but n the dia level you can pretty much do anything and win, so unless your top masters you can really show good builds. i can bio/mech or mech in dia all iw ant and win but when you get to masters thats when you really need to get a good build so might want to try more games at higher levels before trying to show soem builds
I am high master,as are some others people who posted here. And day9 showed even GM players in his mech daily, like Illusion
I'd like to change the topic of discussion in this thread from the usual "Is Mech viable?" (because we will just have to see and nobody is going to find out in a discussion), and discuss something we TvP Mechers can actively test.
What are some possible timing pushes when Meching in TvP? I feel like a lot of TvP Mech players think any push they do is an "all in", and so they turtle, max out, and then do their one big push and hope it works.
Ill start off with one I know for sure can work: After opening Cloak Banshee/Thor/Marine (Day9 Daily #396 Vile Illusion). If my Banshees do enough damage (12+ probe kills maybe?), I know I can follow up with a strong 3 Thor, +1 Mech Armor, ~20 Marine, Raven, and 3-4 Banshee Timing off 2-bases, if he hasn't decided to all in. I can make it an all in push if I decide to bring a bunch of SCV's for mass repair, or you can expand behind it and transition into a 3 base Siege Tank/Hellion/Ghost/Banshee/Raven composition.
So what timings have you guys discovered?
For example, I've found that going Ghost tech is stronger vs. a Protoss who heads down faster Templar tech (duhhh), and that adding on a second Tech Lab'd Starport is stronger against a Protoss who went for Colossus. What are some possible timings that arise when Protoss heads down a certain tech path?
If by viable we mean a standard composition where both sides have figured out how to best handle a composition then like everyone else I don't think Mech is viable.
If by viable we mean a build that can be thrown in as a curveball that Protoss is not expecting and might not be sure how to best counter, then in that sense it may be viable.
I'd like to see Blizzard at least make an attempt to do something with the siegetank so that it was usefull beyond early game All-Ins. I understand the balance is tricky with Zerg in mind, but if the siege tank were useful in mid-late game compositions the MU would have a very different feel and be a lot better IMO.
On March 14 2012 13:15 mlspmatt wrote: If by viable we mean a standard composition where both sides have figured out how to best handle a composition then like everyone else I don't think Mech is viable.
If by viable we mean a build that can be thrown in as a curveball that Protoss is not expecting and might not be sure how to best counter, then in that sense it may be viable.
I'd like to see Blizzard at least make an attempt to do something with the siegetank so that it was usefull beyond early game All-Ins. I understand the balance is tricky with Zerg in mind, but if the siege tank were useful in mid-late game compositions the MU would have a very different feel and be a lot better IMO.
i'm not really sure how buffing siege tank makes very much difference in tvz. banelings and zerglings already die in one shot with +1 vehicle, roaches in general aren't very viable outside of allining, the only possible issue is ultras and depending where on the side of "ultras are imba/useless" argument you fall buffing tank vs ultra is either a plus or nonissue.
tanks being useless vs protoss in general is an issue, but the bigger issue is that the hellions are the factory mineral dump and they're very useless unlike vultures with spider mines.
On March 14 2012 13:15 mlspmatt wrote: If by viable we mean a standard composition where both sides have figured out how to best handle a composition then like everyone else I don't think Mech is viable.
If by viable we mean a build that can be thrown in as a curveball that Protoss is not expecting and might not be sure how to best counter, then in that sense it may be viable.
I'd like to see Blizzard at least make an attempt to do something with the siegetank so that it was usefull beyond early game All-Ins. I understand the balance is tricky with Zerg in mind, but if the siege tank were useful in mid-late game compositions the MU would have a very different feel and be a lot better IMO.
Buffing tanks vs toss while leaving them 100% untouched in other mu's is the easiest thing in the world.
You just have to fiddle with tank damage vs shields. Not like this is any rocket science, it was like that in bw; full (70) dmg to all shields.
How they decided to "target" the siege tank (the initiator) instead of the bio (the actual damage) when nerfing the 111 specifically vs protoss (when all the tanks really do is poke at the protoss to force him to fight (or fall way back)). That is what makes things seem grim, buffing tanks vs toss would take no time at all if they wanted to.
On March 14 2012 13:15 mlspmatt wrote: If by viable we mean a standard composition where both sides have figured out how to best handle a composition then like everyone else I don't think Mech is viable.
If by viable we mean a build that can be thrown in as a curveball that Protoss is not expecting and might not be sure how to best counter, then in that sense it may be viable.
I'd like to see Blizzard at least make an attempt to do something with the siegetank so that it was usefull beyond early game All-Ins. I understand the balance is tricky with Zerg in mind, but if the siege tank were useful in mid-late game compositions the MU would have a very different feel and be a lot better IMO.
Buffing tanks vs toss while leaving them 100% untouched in other mu's is the easiest thing in the world.
You just have to fiddle with tank damage vs shields. Not like this is any rocket science, it was like that in bw; full (70) dmg to all shields.
How they decided to "target" the siege tank (the initiator) instead of the bio (the actual damage) when nerfing the 111 specifically vs protoss (when all the tanks really do is poke at the protoss to force him to fight (or fall way back)). That is what makes things seem grim, buffing tanks vs toss would take no time at all if they wanted to.
Because Terran needs a buff to the 1-1-1 all-in. Heart of the swarm will hopefully buff mech vs. toss with the battle hellion (good answer to mass chargelots) and the warhound (+damage vs. anything mechanical, which, if I'm right, is everything Protoss has except the zealot, high templar, and dark templar). Tanks right now are already very good in certain timings, making them better would make those timings overpowered as all hell. Unfortunately, Protoss just has some tech that they can get later on that makes tanks obsolete in the matchup. The only way to fix that right now, in my opinion, would be to add an upgrade that makes tanks better vs. Toss without really improving them vs. Terran and Zerg (maybe an EMP shell upgrade or something that makes them do extra shield damage).
Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units..
On March 14 2012 13:15 mlspmatt wrote: If by viable we mean a standard composition where both sides have figured out how to best handle a composition then like everyone else I don't think Mech is viable.
If by viable we mean a build that can be thrown in as a curveball that Protoss is not expecting and might not be sure how to best counter, then in that sense it may be viable.
I'd like to see Blizzard at least make an attempt to do something with the siegetank so that it was usefull beyond early game All-Ins. I understand the balance is tricky with Zerg in mind, but if the siege tank were useful in mid-late game compositions the MU would have a very different feel and be a lot better IMO.
Buffing tanks vs toss while leaving them 100% untouched in other mu's is the easiest thing in the world.
You just have to fiddle with tank damage vs shields. Not like this is any rocket science, it was like that in bw; full (70) dmg to all shields.
How they decided to "target" the siege tank (the initiator) instead of the bio (the actual damage) when nerfing the 111 specifically vs protoss (when all the tanks really do is poke at the protoss to force him to fight (or fall way back)). That is what makes things seem grim, buffing tanks vs toss would take no time at all if they wanted to.
Because Terran needs a buff to the 1-1-1 all-in. Heart of the swarm will hopefully buff mech vs. toss with the battle hellion (good answer to mass chargelots) and the warhound (+damage vs. anything mechanical, which, if I'm right, is everything Protoss has except the zealot, high templar, and dark templar). Tanks right now are already very good in certain timings, making them better would make those timings overpowered as all hell. Unfortunately, Protoss just has some tech that they can get later on that makes tanks obsolete in the matchup. The only way to fix that right now, in my opinion, would be to add an upgrade that makes tanks better vs. Toss without really improving them vs. Terran and Zerg (maybe an EMP shell upgrade or something that makes them do extra shield damage).
I was just pointing out that their methodology when nerfing the 111 was targeting the easy siege tank instead of touching the actual reason the tanks helped (they help force bio down the tosses throat when he's weak to it), when the actual fight starts you'd want that food in more m&m anyways. It's kind of a band aid fix in some ways.
What i find really funny (or really sad,sometimes) is how people try to point the same mech' weaknesses again,and again and again without really trying to even read what people say about possibles solutions and often without even having try to do a serious meching TvP game. . .
Yeah, those people just simply do not want to know/learn more, and they want to increase the post count or they want to look knowledgable, in my opinion.
I still believe mech is unexplored, not "not viable"
Go Mech go! Keep the discussion going, I love mech so much
Have any of you TvP mech players had to deal with speed warp prisms dropping immortals on your tank line? I've never seen this mentioned as a weakness of TvP mech, and it would be scarier than marauder drops in TvT.
On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
I would love to see some of your games. Feel free to upload replays please! :D
10/11 : sup 12/19 : rax 13/19 : ref (3 in gas asap) 15/19 : orbital + marine (stop @ 4 or 5 - if you scv scout you might be required to cut scv production for few seconds to squeeze the 5th marine) 16/19 : sup 18/27 : fact 50% of fac : ref (3 in gas asap) 23/27 : sup 100% of fac : armory, hellion 28/36 : sup 100% of hellion : techlab (finishes the same time as armory) 100% of armory : thor 50% of thor : CC 1st thor ready : starport 2nd thor ready : fac<techlab switch>star: raven prod 100% CC : 3x rax, techlab all 4 rax at this point switch to 2 supply production 100% techlab : 2x ref push out with 2 ravens and 8(?) marauders, rally everything to thors and use them to stomp FFs
hellion + techlab build time = armory build time the moment armory and techlab are done you have 200 gas - enough to build a thor enough marines to fill a bunker + hellion for map scout try to wall with 2 sups at the ramp edges, so that you can bunker in the middle to close the wall
this is basicly a thor-bio push or something, stole this from a friend, he's still working on it. Tanks are bad, dont make them ;3 if you see P going for immortals squeeze ghost aca instead of 2nd raven OR grab strike cannons
edit: forgot to add - you MIGHT want to consider letting the protoss scout your fast tech - fear of banshees will make him drop a robo instead of star tech, as void rays might be problematic to deal with and get in the way of raven production, as you have to make vikings. This is also stomped by chargelot-archon with couple templars to feedback thors/ravens, but no one does this nowdays
Why 2 Raven's instead of 2 Banshees? It seems like Marauder Thor would excel against Stalkers and struggle more against Zealots. Do you use the 2 ravens for Auto-Turrets to block Zealots or why do you use them instead of Banshees?
Also, people, can we please stop talking about ways to get away with turtling against Protoss and never attacking? Can we shift to discussing possible timings with Mech or any way to be aggressive?
i think for lategame toss can easily take 3-4 bases and get to mass air, and carrier own without any marines, so do voidrays. i usually win vs mech when i dont fail hard.
air terran with mass cloak banshees etc is much more viable i think.
An army with a good number of BC, raven with HSM, ghosts,and some thors can kill really cost efficiently a toss air army (and turrets are also insanely strong)
On March 14 2012 23:52 necrimanci wrote: 10/11 : sup 12/19 : rax 13/19 : ref (3 in gas asap) 15/19 : orbital + marine (stop @ 4 or 5 - if you scv scout you might be required to cut scv production for few seconds to squeeze the 5th marine) 16/19 : sup 18/27 : fact 50% of fac : ref (3 in gas asap) 23/27 : sup 100% of fac : armory, hellion 28/36 : sup 100% of hellion : techlab (finishes the same time as armory) 100% of armory : thor 50% of thor : CC 1st thor ready : starport 2nd thor ready : fac<techlab switch>star: raven prod 100% CC : 3x rax, techlab all 4 rax at this point switch to 2 supply production 100% techlab : 2x ref push out with 2 ravens and 8(?) marauders, rally everything to thors and use them to stomp FFs
hellion + techlab build time = armory build time the moment armory and techlab are done you have 200 gas - enough to build a thor enough marines to fill a bunker + hellion for map scout try to wall with 2 sups at the ramp edges, so that you can bunker in the middle to close the wall
this is basicly a thor-bio push or something, stole this from a friend, he's still working on it. Tanks are bad, dont make them ;3 if you see P going for immortals squeeze ghost aca instead of 2nd raven OR grab strike cannons
edit: forgot to add - you MIGHT want to consider letting the protoss scout your fast tech - fear of banshees will make him drop a robo instead of star tech, as void rays might be problematic to deal with and get in the way of raven production, as you have to make vikings. This is also stomped by chargelot-archon with couple templars to feedback thors/ravens, but no one does this nowdays
Ravens for PDD ? And yes u will die fast to mass zealots QQ It's pretty all-in build
@ZjiublingZ as i said - this isnt my opening, i just "borrowed" it :3 From what i got out of it there are 2 reasons for 2 ravens - 1. DTs and you mule everything, 2. raxes come in late, so they cant scout the exact composition. And everyone assumes marines (sometimes hellions), because gas went into thors, or pure mech, so they pump stalkers as a response for marine kiting/hellion stop/mobility
most of the time P assumes 1/1/1 or banshees after scouting a fast factory after rax, so he gets stalkers regardless
also you want to start the push pretty fast with few marauders (4-8 was the usual), because you cant let the protoss get too many immortals - for obvious reasons. And since you skip the conc granades, stalkers can safely hit and run. My friend usually ends up using one PDD in the middle of the map and 2nd PDD is ready when he reaches enemy base. Once marauder numbers pile up it doesnt matter tho. If he didnt need PDDs, he'd drop turrets at either the mineral line to pull enemy back (turrets stroGn) or just spam them during a fight. Once saw him throw 3 to block a small ramp
@foxj yes, as i said, chargelots-archon stomps it, but no one uses it as an opening (since you have to open this way to "hard counter" the push), but as a midgame/lategame transition. P reacts to the build with stalkers/robo, and starts getting zealots once he sees the push coming and tries to slow it down with stalkers. It's strong because it's a mindfuck :3
you can obviously tinker with it - it's not the unit composition that i wanted to pasta here, but the double thor opening with good gas timing. Everything to the point where you get a starport is pretty well timed gas-wise
edit: and it has a "fairly" timed CC for a tech build + good defence with repair thors/bunker. And forgot to add, dammit, that if you scout a fast nexus you skip the CC and drop rax and move out
On March 14 2012 23:18 sushichef wrote: Have any of you TvP mech players had to deal with speed warp prisms dropping immortals on your tank line? I've never seen this mentioned as a weakness of TvP mech, and it would be scarier than marauder drops in TvT.
On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units..
Have you ever tested this out? Food for food, cost for cost, (provided the Barracks wall) mass tanks beats any non-air Protoss composition, with the exception of mass Immortals. But like 5 ghosts fixes that problem.
The only problem I forsee is the weak timings as you take your third (on maps with difficult thirds)and fourth. when Protoss already many more bases than you do. They could potentially do some extremely strong timing pushes that could seal the deal. Immortal busts are quite potent; a bit of mismicro destroys the front wall.
Once Terran has their third, they just need to be a bit careful with where they siege and whatnot, and Terran should be fine. Good scouting and map awareness should shut down Protosses attempts for harass, and yeah...
And I recommend BFH dropping to force as many cannons out of Protoss as you can. And making sure to spam those turrets...I've had a lot of success when Protoss is unaware of my army positioning.
I'll play a few games online after my tests tomorrow, and I'll upload the reps.
It's not pure mech but I've been working with a new build that maxes out with Thors/Banshees/Marines and 1-2 Ravens. I've seen NaDa do something very similar. You open 1-1-1 clocked banshees, expand while trying to harass, and start Thor production off 2 base. After i've gotten my third situated and am looking to take a 4th (usually around when you're maxing out, 16-18 minutes) I pull 20-30 SCV and push. Ill usually end the game with 2-3 rax, 3-4 factories, 1 starport. If you can waste your Thor's energy before you engage the Thors with SCV repair and PDD becomes really tank. Collosus can give Thor builds a lot of trouble but if you can snipe Obs with the Raven/Thor the banshees should take care of that. Idk if anyone else has been trying builds like this but I've been having relative success in Masters league with it.
I think people underestimate the power of thors with some siege tank and air support. I was hoping more terrans would showcase mech in TvP in the GSL after Jinro showed that crazy game against MC.
Anyhow, late game chargelots are pretty bad against BFH.. The biggest problem is having to split up your upgrades between air and ground, you will probably need like 3 armories.
qxc was trying out some macro-oriented thor heavy mixes on his stream lately. They got stomped by high immortal counts. Mech in tvp is a 2base all in/timing - you have to attack before P gets fat... or gg out
On March 15 2012 04:03 darkcloud8282 wrote: I think people underestimate the power of thors with some siege tank and air support. I was hoping more terrans would showcase mech in TvP in the GSL after Jinro showed that crazy game against MC.
Anyhow, late game chargelots are pretty bad against BFH.. The biggest problem is having to split up your upgrades between air and ground, you will probably need like 3 armories.
Where was this crazy Jinro/MC game? I'd love to see it!
The wonderful thing about thor/tank/air support mixes is the thor tanking for the tanks (heh.) while the tanks just do massive amount of dmg. I've experimented slightly with some biomech styles where I go rine/few mara/tanks. It works quite good even though it seems to be a disaster. Most people will be like, "chargelots rape your tanks" "colossi rape your bio". But thing is that if you have proper positioning your bio will make short work of the chargelots and you can focus fire down colossi with your tanks and/or vikings.
What Im trying to say is that people need to keep on trying this and not give up just becuase they lose a couple of times. I've played a lot of TvPs and been working with tanks since beta came out. Its the way I play and always will. I love tanks.
On March 15 2012 04:03 darkcloud8282 wrote: I think people underestimate the power of thors with some siege tank and air support. I was hoping more terrans would showcase mech in TvP in the GSL after Jinro showed that crazy game against MC.
Anyhow, late game chargelots are pretty bad against BFH.. The biggest problem is having to split up your upgrades between air and ground, you will probably need like 3 armories.
Where was this crazy Jinro/MC game? I'd love to see it!
Wish I could see it aswell! Only thing I can find is this:
On March 15 2012 04:03 darkcloud8282 wrote: I think people underestimate the power of thors with some siege tank and air support. I was hoping more terrans would showcase mech in TvP in the GSL after Jinro showed that crazy game against MC.
Anyhow, late game chargelots are pretty bad against BFH.. The biggest problem is having to split up your upgrades between air and ground, you will probably need like 3 armories.
Where was this crazy Jinro/MC game? I'd love to see it!
On March 14 2012 23:18 sushichef wrote: Have any of you TvP mech players had to deal with speed warp prisms dropping immortals on your tank line? I've never seen this mentioned as a weakness of TvP mech, and it would be scarier than marauder drops in TvT.
On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units..
Have you ever tested this out? Food for food, cost for cost, (provided the Barracks wall) mass tanks beats any non-air Protoss composition, with the exception of mass Immortals. But like 5 ghosts fixes that problem.
100 food of chargelot archon will beat 100+ food of +3 tanks, and chargelot archon is much easier to replace than 30+ tanks. when you're not in a maxed position chargelot archon wrecks tanks even worse. you can claim emp will beat it but you don't have the money for ghosts and get vikings and upgrades and take a third and research cloak and reactor and you can't chase archon zealot with tanks anyways so if protoss gets emp'd he can back off and there's literally nothing you can do about it. i played 100+ games of mech tvp at mid-high masters, it does not work well at all.
On March 15 2012 04:03 darkcloud8282 wrote: I think people underestimate the power of thors with some siege tank and air support. I was hoping more terrans would showcase mech in TvP in the GSL after Jinro showed that crazy game against MC.
Anyhow, late game chargelots are pretty bad against BFH.. The biggest problem is having to split up your upgrades between air and ground, you will probably need like 3 armories.
Where was this crazy Jinro/MC game? I'd love to see it!
On March 14 2012 23:18 sushichef wrote: Have any of you TvP mech players had to deal with speed warp prisms dropping immortals on your tank line? I've never seen this mentioned as a weakness of TvP mech, and it would be scarier than marauder drops in TvT.
Just build turrets and get like 3 vikings
On March 14 2012 16:53 rauk wrote:
On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units..
Have you ever tested this out? Food for food, cost for cost, (provided the Barracks wall) mass tanks beats any non-air Protoss composition, with the exception of mass Immortals. But like 5 ghosts fixes that problem.
100 food of chargelot archon will beat 100+ food of +3 tanks, and chargelot archon is much easier to replace than 30+ tanks. when you're not in a maxed position chargelot archon wrecks tanks even worse. you can claim emp will beat it but you don't have the money for ghosts and get vikings and upgrades and take a third and research cloak and reactor and you can't chase archon zealot with tanks anyways so if protoss gets emp'd he can back off and there's literally nothing you can do about it. i played 100+ games of mech tvp at mid-high masters, it does not work well at all.
Just tried the chargelot/archon vs tanks. I dont think you know of the supreme power of tanks in higher counts. 40chargelots/5archons vs 33tanks on an open field. 18 tanks remain. Add something that will prevent the P from reaching the tanks instantly and you will get very very few tank losses, as the tanks are killing themselves becuase of chargelots.
This was tested with +3 mech dmg (no armor) vs +3+3 ground P. P forces a-moved into sieged tanks.
Sidenote: I've played with tanks vs P since beta and rocking some GM P with it. I think it works well.
On March 14 2012 23:18 sushichef wrote: Have any of you TvP mech players had to deal with speed warp prisms dropping immortals on your tank line? I've never seen this mentioned as a weakness of TvP mech, and it would be scarier than marauder drops in TvT.
Just build turrets and get like 3 vikings
On March 14 2012 16:53 rauk wrote:
On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units..
Have you ever tested this out? Food for food, cost for cost, (provided the Barracks wall) mass tanks beats any non-air Protoss composition, with the exception of mass Immortals. But like 5 ghosts fixes that problem.
100 food of chargelot archon will beat 100+ food of +3 tanks, and chargelot archon is much easier to replace than 30+ tanks. when you're not in a maxed position chargelot archon wrecks tanks even worse. you can claim emp will beat it but you don't have the money for ghosts and get vikings and upgrades and take a third and research cloak and reactor and you can't chase archon zealot with tanks anyways so if protoss gets emp'd he can back off and there's literally nothing you can do about it. i played 100+ games of mech tvp at mid-high masters, it does not work well at all.
Perhaps you were playing it wrong? 100 games of some random master player doesn't make all of Mech obsolete because he couldn't get it to work. It takes a lot more people, a lot smarter than the average masters player, to fully flesh out a style. And the argument you are making doesn't add anything to the topic of this thread.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Have you at least looked at day9 Tvp mech daily, or watched some high mas/GM TvP meching players rep? Avilo says some things, Day9 says others for example.. Each one can make his own advice but as somebody who is going to probably be in GM next season and is doing it by only meching since nearly ine year . . well, my advice is kind of obvious
On March 15 2012 05:46 Lyyna wrote: Have you at least looked at day9 Tvp mech daily, or watched some high mas/GM TvP meching players rep? Avilo says some things, Day9 says others for example.. Each one can make his own advice but as somebody who is going to probably be in GM next season and is doing it by only meching since nearly ine year . . well, my advice is kind of obvious
And that's on ladder. Any BoX you will get demolished if you remain stubborn.
People will encounter mech and react incredibly poorly because they don't change their style or understand mech's weaknesses. Mech being viable means doesn't matter if the opponent scouts it or not or tries to "counter" it. If the strategy is solid and executed and timed well, than it should obviously hold just fine if its scouted.
Banking on the opponent reacting poorly and pretending he's still playing against marine/maruader in the game, is incredibly fragile.
My own personal experience after wanting to do it from retail and post-Day9 daily encouragement, why gimp yourself into a inflexible unit composition that has tons of BUILT-IN counters(brain dead easy as well) just so you can lose to people you shouldn't be losing to? Attempting and trying to make it work will just make you even more convinced to go marine/marauder.
I can slightly agree on that fullmech is probably not possible vs P. But I will keep on standing behind the idea of biomech or skyterran combined with mech, as that is what I am doing.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
On March 15 2012 06:04 dotDash wrote: I can slightly agree on that fullmech is probably not possible vs P. But I will keep on standing behind the idea of biomech or skyterran combined with mech, as that is what I am doing.
Cheers Dan
Gumiho and other Terrans have been getting up a couple of tanks in the early game to create a good hold against 2 base all-ins from protoss. I actually like how they play it out since they actually produce out of the factory when usually they would float it away to the Protoss's base and block their army. Tanks are still good in some circumstances during the course of the game, but the core of the army still has to be marine/marauder.
On March 15 2012 05:46 Lyyna wrote: Have you at least looked at day9 Tvp mech daily, or watched some high mas/GM TvP meching players rep? Avilo says some things, Day9 says others for example.. Each one can make his own advice but as somebody who is going to probably be in GM next season and is doing it by only meching since nearly ine year . . well, my advice is kind of obvious
And that's on ladder. Any BoX you will get demolished if you remain stubborn.
People will encounter mech and react incredibly poorly because they don't change their style or understand mech's weaknesses. Mech being viable means doesn't matter if the opponent scouts it or not or tries to "counter" it. If the strategy is solid and executed and timed well, than it should obviously hold just fine if its scouted.
Banking on the opponent reacting poorly and pretending he's still playing against marine/maruader in the game, is incredibly fragile.
My own personal experience after wanting to do it from retail and post-Day9 daily encouragement, why gimp yourself into a inflexible unit composition that has tons of BUILT-IN counters(brain dead easy as well) just so you can lose to people you shouldn't be losing to? Attempting and trying to make it work will just make you even more convinced to go marine/marauder.
I'm not a pro,i'm not a super high GM player, but i think i'm not really bad, and i often run into situations where i do have to face numerous times the same opponent (like chain laddering, or in clan war, or in training games with mates), so they know how do i play,and they still loose to it.
My own experience from it is that i can nearly always get away with my own defensive mech play, while always loosing when playing bio because my army is so weak and totally depends of economic damage/uppgrad advantage to win lategame
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
There are no 3 base timings.
3 base means you need to go full 200/200 if you wanna attack with your army. Which presents several problems.
1) taking a third relatively fast isn't friendly on most maps when you have an immobile army 2) taking a third means you must skimp production slightly AND spread your army out
The reason why 2 base mech will actually do damage cause its usually around the time protoss already are trying to get their third up. Also in this time frame they can only have so much tech out(charge, blink, storm, colossus, immortal, etc). If you don't attack with your army at this time to do damage, by the time you attack on 3 base, they can have everything I just mentioned and 3/3 upgrades which will all trade with your army in the Protoss' favor and lets protoss take control of the map for free.
On March 15 2012 06:04 dotDash wrote: I can slightly agree on that fullmech is probably not possible vs P. But I will keep on standing behind the idea of biomech or skyterran combined with mech, as that is what I am doing.
Cheers Dan
Gumiho and other Terrans have been getting up a couple of tanks in the early game to create a good hold against 2 base all-ins from protoss. I actually like how they play it out since they actually produce out of the factory when usually they would float it away to the Protoss's base and block their army. Tanks are still good in some circumstances during the course of the game, but the core of the army still has to be marine/marauder.
What if you play without a core army?
You have tanks in defense so he can't attack cost effective and you harass him to death with banshee/drops. It's a style I've been trying out as it transition into skyterran pretty good.. which is what I ultimately want to go for in endgame vs P.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
telling people not to post unless they have something to add, and then not adding anything yourself -.-. gg bro, gg ofc it is possible to win using mech, but that doesnt mean its a sensible plan. its possible to win with PF rushes, but i dont see any threads on that.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
telling people not to post unless they have something to add, and then not adding anything yourself -.-. gg bro, gg ofc it is possible to win using mech, but that doesnt mean its a sensible plan. its possible to win with PF rushes, but i dont see any threads on that.
You misunderstood my post. I am asking people not to discuss "Can mech work TvP" in a "How to Mech in TvP" thread. Simply make another thread if that's what you want to discuss. I am asking a question to further discussion on how to to Mech TvP.
If there was a thread on "How to PF rush" (lol), it wouldn't help to make posts about how PF rushes aren't viable.
We are past the "Is it viable" discussion, we are here to discuss how one should go about doing it. It's really simple. If you don't wan't to discuss How to Mech TvP, gtfo of the thread please.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
telling people not to post unless they have something to add, and then not adding anything yourself -.-. gg bro, gg ofc it is possible to win using mech, but that doesnt mean its a sensible plan. its possible to win with PF rushes, but i dont see any threads on that.
Cheeses and allins all have bad winrates, else they would be standard play, yet we see tons of guides on them in the forums.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
telling people not to post unless they have something to add, and then not adding anything yourself -.-. gg bro, gg ofc it is possible to win using mech, but that doesnt mean its a sensible plan. its possible to win with PF rushes, but i dont see any threads on that.
You misunderstood my post. I am asking people not to discuss "Can mech work TvP" in a "How to Mech in TvP" thread. Simply make another thread if that's what you want to discuss. I am asking a question to further discussion on how to to Mech TvP.
If there was a thread on "How to PF rush" (lol), it wouldn't help to make posts about how PF rushes aren't viable.
We are past the "Is it viable" discussion, we are here to discuss how one should go about doing it. It's really simple. If you don't wan't to discuss How to Mech TvP, gtfo of the thread please.
You misunderstand my post. People read guides all the time here on TL strategy and they try it out if they want to. Just like a product you buy at the store. I'm just giving my review of the product, this case "TvP mech" out of personal experience. People deserve to hear both sides instead of being deluded they're apart of an "upcoming" trend of mech users in the SC2 world.
On March 14 2012 23:18 sushichef wrote: Have any of you TvP mech players had to deal with speed warp prisms dropping immortals on your tank line? I've never seen this mentioned as a weakness of TvP mech, and it would be scarier than marauder drops in TvT.
Just build turrets and get like 3 vikings
On March 14 2012 16:53 rauk wrote:
On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units..
Have you ever tested this out? Food for food, cost for cost, (provided the Barracks wall) mass tanks beats any non-air Protoss composition, with the exception of mass Immortals. But like 5 ghosts fixes that problem.
100 food of chargelot archon will beat 100+ food of +3 tanks, and chargelot archon is much easier to replace than 30+ tanks. when you're not in a maxed position chargelot archon wrecks tanks even worse. you can claim emp will beat it but you don't have the money for ghosts and get vikings and upgrades and take a third and research cloak and reactor and you can't chase archon zealot with tanks anyways so if protoss gets emp'd he can back off and there's literally nothing you can do about it. i played 100+ games of mech tvp at mid-high masters, it does not work well at all.
Just tried the chargelot/archon vs tanks. I dont think you know of the supreme power of tanks in higher counts. 40chargelots/5archons vs 33tanks on an open field. 18 tanks remain. Add something that will prevent the P from reaching the tanks instantly and you will get very very few tank losses, as the tanks are killing themselves becuase of chargelots.
This was tested with +3 mech dmg (no armor) vs +3+3 ground P. P forces a-moved into sieged tanks.
Sidenote: I've played with tanks vs P since beta and rocking some GM P with it. I think it works well.
Cheers Dan
i did 10 archons and 30 chargelots, spread a bit and amove, and toss wins with 3 or so archons left over.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
telling people not to post unless they have something to add, and then not adding anything yourself -.-. gg bro, gg ofc it is possible to win using mech, but that doesnt mean its a sensible plan. its possible to win with PF rushes, but i dont see any threads on that.
You misunderstood my post. I am asking people not to discuss "Can mech work TvP" in a "How to Mech in TvP" thread. Simply make another thread if that's what you want to discuss. I am asking a question to further discussion on how to to Mech TvP.
If there was a thread on "How to PF rush" (lol), it wouldn't help to make posts about how PF rushes aren't viable.
We are past the "Is it viable" discussion, we are here to discuss how one should go about doing it. It's really simple. If you don't wan't to discuss How to Mech TvP, gtfo of the thread please.
You misunderstand my post. People read guides all the time here on TL strategy and they try it out if they want to. Just like a product you buy at the store. I'm just giving my review of the product, this case "TvP mech" out of personal experience. People deserve to hear both sides instead of being deluded they're apart of an "upcoming" trend of mech users in the SC2 world.
This isn't a product. This isn't a guide. This is a discussion on How To Mech. That is, a place where we can discuss how to go about Meching in TvP, not whether someone ought to or not.
If you want to discuss whether or not PvT Mech is 'viable' or not, make a thread for that topic!
People have got mech to work up to high Masters in TvP. Who cares if it viable at pro level, 99.99% of the people reading this thread will never be pro anyway.
The more relevant question is: Does it work against an equally skilled opponent below pro level? So far everything seems to indicate this.
I know that since I switched to Marauder/Banshee into Marauder/Banshee/BC I have a much easier time against Protoss compared to when I did MMM+V/G. Suddenly it is Protoss that plays against the clock and needs to kill me before late game or be in a very bad position.
When I did MMM+V/G I really needed to outplay my opponent in order to win. If I just played 10-15% better than him I lost. With Marauder/Banshee into Marauder/Banshee/BC/Medivac/Ghost I have never lost to an opponent that played worse than me, only if they played better.
So I would even go so far to say that MMM+V/G is weak and incorrect way of playing TvP below pro level. Why force yourself to out-micro and out-multitask your opponent just to have a chance of winning instead of just going with a more solid composition. Why play against the clock when you have units combos that just rapes everything Protoss has late game.
So because a strategy is forcing you to micro, it isn't effective outside of pro level? I hate MMMGV, yet I still do it. Why? It's the best. Insane DPS from bio.
There are many things you can do to to make yourself be on equal footing.
People need to stop looking down on builds and strategies because they require you to actually 'outplay' someone. If microing and what not, is out playing... then I guess you should change races if you don't want to 'outplay' protoss.
The reason why mech on ladder works right now, is because it is not expected by an average protoss.
Let me give you an example:
Few months ago i was trying out mech in TvP (plat league back then), with average success. It seemed okay on ladder, giving me domething among 60% win-rate. After i played with it on a ladder for a bit, i tried some games with my protoss friend (mid or low masters). I didn't informed him what strategy i will be doing, and first few games i just did usuall MMM. After that i switched to mech and won him. Of course, i barely won, but i still won. (and it wasn't some cheese or allin i defended, i specifically asked him to play standard 1-3 gate expo). But, after playing with him a few more games, i lost, each time worse and worse.
The thing is, very little protoss knows what to do vs mech, and even less knows how to defend it properly. Playing mech style now is basically banking on a fact that your opponent doesn't know how to properly play vs it. (and by that i mean not only right unit composition, also engagments, timings and all that good stuff). I got the same "suprise" result when practicing 2 rac cloacked ghost push vs zergs. The build was crap, but most zergs just didn't expect it.
Some might say that good protoss would know how to react to mech. Well, every protoss knows it, they just don't have experience in fighting it, there is no "builds" that counters mech as protoss. This is the main difference, and why i stopped playing with mech in TvP, and kept practicing my bio. Because if protoss ecnounters bio 80% of times in TvP and still loses, this is definetly better than mech, even tho it can be unstable sometimes.
When there will be a protoss bulid vs a terran mech build, i will swaitch back to mech, but for now i will drop my marines like mad :p
Friend of mine showed me how to mech TvP yesterday. I worked ok, even though I didn't have a set-build order. Mech needs to be explored more as a transition.
Edit: I wanted to point out opening with bio and transtioing into mech is a much more "standard" (as in versatile) strategy for meching TvP. The build I was shown yesterday ( I'm plat but I was shown by two rank 1 masters players) is opening with a small amount of bio (2 or 3 rax) just to get a good marine count up, maybe even a few marauders, and then teching to mech. There are several variations (banshee inclusion, strike cannon) but the idea I got is to maintain ur rax for scouting/marine drops. You don't have to sacrifice hellions to mineral lines but can actually keep them to stop strats with mass zealots. BFH are actually amazing against zealots, banshees are great against immortals that try and annhilate ur tanks, if their immortal production a certain number of tanks can beat immortals, and with mech u have the armor to withstand the AOE of protoss.
I feel like I'm convinced MMM isn't the only option TvP because protoss have figured out they can FE against terrans and get thier deathball much quicker.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
telling people not to post unless they have something to add, and then not adding anything yourself -.-. gg bro, gg ofc it is possible to win using mech, but that doesnt mean its a sensible plan. its possible to win with PF rushes, but i dont see any threads on that.
Cheeses and allins all have bad winrates, else they would be standard play, yet we see tons of guides on them in the forums.
well, quite a few of the all ins that have guides posted work well. and your point about them having low winrates and still having threads is exactly applicable to this thread. mech in TvP will only really do well if your opponent plays worse than you. thats why it isnt standard play
well, quite a few of the all ins that have guides posted work well. and your point about them having low winrates and still having threads is exactly applicable to this thread. mech in TvP will only really do well if your opponent plays worse than you. thats why it isnt standard play
What's ur experience with TvP mech to say something like that?
On March 15 2012 08:41 owlofhell wrote: The reason why mech on ladder works right now, is because it is not expected by an average protoss.
Let me give you an example:
Few months ago i was trying out mech in TvP (plat league back then), with average success. It seemed okay on ladder, giving me domething among 60% win-rate. After i played with it on a ladder for a bit, i tried some games with my protoss friend (mid or low masters). I didn't informed him what strategy i will be doing, and first few games i just did usuall MMM. After that i switched to mech and won him. Of course, i barely won, but i still won. (and it wasn't some cheese or allin i defended, i specifically asked him to play standard 1-3 gate expo). But, after playing with him a few more games, i lost, each time worse and worse.
The thing is, very little protoss knows what to do vs mech, and even less knows how to defend it properly. Playing mech style now is basically banking on a fact that your opponent doesn't know how to properly play vs it. (and by that i mean not only right unit composition, also engagments, timings and all that good stuff). I got the same "suprise" result when practicing 2 rac cloacked ghost push vs zergs. The build was crap, but most zergs just didn't expect it.
Some might say that good protoss would know how to react to mech. Well, every protoss knows it, they just don't have experience in fighting it, there is no "builds" that counters mech as protoss. This is the main difference, and why i stopped playing with mech in TvP, and kept practicing my bio. Because if protoss ecnounters bio 80% of times in TvP and still loses, this is definetly better than mech, even tho it can be unstable sometimes.
When there will be a protoss bulid vs a terran mech build, i will swaitch back to mech, but for now i will drop my marines like mad :p
That's not true. Playing mech with terran has to be approached the same way a standard protoss tech is run. You begin with rax units (gateway units) and continually replace them with stronger units (robo, stargate, templar tech). The problem is protoss tier 1 units are very strong on their own, so they can be retained throughout the game in smaller numbers, unlike terran tier 1. Marines are horrible against most late game compositions from protoss.
I think the answer to protoss is similiar to what QXC said about how zergs are playing now. Everyone has been mimicking Ret and Idra's macro style as zerg and they don't know how to play zerg any other way. Too many people say zerg has to be played "swarm style" when in fact there are other options that need to be explored.
TvP is the same way. We need to get out of this mindset that says MMMVG is the only comp for TvP mid-late game.
On March 14 2012 23:18 sushichef wrote: Have any of you TvP mech players had to deal with speed warp prisms dropping immortals on your tank line? I've never seen this mentioned as a weakness of TvP mech, and it would be scarier than marauder drops in TvT.
Just build turrets and get like 3 vikings
On March 14 2012 16:53 rauk wrote:
On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units..
Have you ever tested this out? Food for food, cost for cost, (provided the Barracks wall) mass tanks beats any non-air Protoss composition, with the exception of mass Immortals. But like 5 ghosts fixes that problem.
100 food of chargelot archon will beat 100+ food of +3 tanks, and chargelot archon is much easier to replace than 30+ tanks. when you're not in a maxed position chargelot archon wrecks tanks even worse. you can claim emp will beat it but you don't have the money for ghosts and get vikings and upgrades and take a third and research cloak and reactor and you can't chase archon zealot with tanks anyways so if protoss gets emp'd he can back off and there's literally nothing you can do about it. i played 100+ games of mech tvp at mid-high masters, it does not work well at all.
Perhaps you were playing it wrong? 100 games of some random master player doesn't make all of Mech obsolete because he couldn't get it to work. It takes a lot more people, a lot smarter than the average masters player, to fully flesh out a style. And the argument you are making doesn't add anything to the topic of this thread.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
i think that if the whole point of going mech is getting a ton of siege tanks and siege tanks are in fact garbage vs all protoss units, then the only real answer to "how to mech in tvp" is "play someone worse than you." if you're going to play someone worse than you you might as well do something funny like viking drops from medivacs but no one's going to make a thread about the most efficient reactor starport viking drop build.
and the other alternative to having mid-masters players discuss mech is to have bronze-gold discuss it? cause i don't see any gm players in here going "yeah mech is great i use it every tvp."
That's not true. Playing mech with terran has to be approached the same way a standard protoss tech is run. You begin with rax units (gateway units) and continually replace them with stronger units (robo, stargate, templar tech). The problem is protoss tier 1 units are very strong on their own, so they can be retained throughout the game in smaller numbers, unlike terran tier 1. Marines are horrible against most late game compositions from protoss.
I think the answer to protoss is similiar to what QXC said about how zergs are playing now. Everyone has been mimicking Ret and Idra's macro style as zerg and they don't know how to play zerg any other way. Too many people say zerg has to be played "swarm style" when in fact there are other options that need to be explored.
TvP is the same way. We need to get out of this mindset that says MMMVG is the only comp for TvP mid-late game.
You missed the main point of my post. I dind't said mech is bad (i personaly think that, but i have no evidence to prove it), i said that protosess lack experience vs meching terran, so big winrate with mech on ladder probably expalined by this, not by mech effectivnes.
That's not true. Playing mech with terran has to be approached the same way a standard protoss tech is run. You begin with rax units (gateway units) and continually replace them with stronger units (robo, stargate, templar tech). The problem is protoss tier 1 units are very strong on their own, so they can be retained throughout the game in smaller numbers, unlike terran tier 1. Marines are horrible against most late game compositions from protoss.
I think the answer to protoss is similiar to what QXC said about how zergs are playing now. Everyone has been mimicking Ret and Idra's macro style as zerg and they don't know how to play zerg any other way. Too many people say zerg has to be played "swarm style" when in fact there are other options that need to be explored.
TvP is the same way. We need to get out of this mindset that says MMMVG is the only comp for TvP mid-late game.
You missed the main point of my post. I dind't said mech is bad (i personaly think that, but i have no evidence to prove it), i said that protosess lack experience vs meching terran, so big winrate with mech on ladder probably expalined by this, not by mech effectivnes.
This is one of the point of trying mech for an extended period of time. I do personally do like 90% of my games with mech since like 1 year, so i've seen lots of people trying various strats, lots of potentials counters,etc . . Had to that countless games with pratices partners, clan wars where people know and prepare for their opponent, etc. . . It's easy to say 'mech is not viable,looks at game X or try army X vs army Y' by basing yoursel on a little sample (or based on nothing at all, like a lot of people on this thread do). Most of these people don't even know how a good mech army will look. For nearly everyone, saying 'TvP mech' is like saying 'ok so i open 1 rax FE into 4 gaz into 5 facto making 50 tanks and A moving' or 'ok so i 111 allin every game with 4 tanks'.
In my personal case, lots of people tried to explain me how bad mech TvP is and don't believe me when i say i got to my rank by pure meching. And when i ask them 'Did you at least tried it?' , the only answer i got was 'Not worthing it lol'. Well, for me i could say the same with bio . . .
On March 15 2012 07:38 MockHamill wrote: People have got mech to work up to high Masters in TvP. Who cares if it viable at pro level, 99.99% of the people reading this thread will never be pro anyway.
The more relevant question is: Does it work against an equally skilled opponent below pro level? So far everything seems to indicate this.
I know that since I switched to Marauder/Banshee into Marauder/Banshee/BC I have a much easier time against Protoss compared to when I did MMM+V/G. Suddenly it is Protoss that plays against the clock and needs to kill me before late game or be in a very bad position.
When I did MMM+V/G I really needed to outplay my opponent in order to win. If I just played 10-15% better than him I lost. With Marauder/Banshee into Marauder/Banshee/BC/Medivac/Ghost I have never lost to an opponent that played worse than me, only if they played better.
So I would even go so far to say that MMM+V/G is weak and incorrect way of playing TvP below pro level. Why force yourself to out-micro and out-multitask your opponent just to have a chance of winning instead of just going with a more solid composition. Why play against the clock when you have units combos that just rapes everything Protoss has late game.
bio is good, you just have to know how to play it. it's really hard to deal with nexus snipes in particular. i can't see you beating a toss that has scouted you going marauder/banshee/BC. maybe you left out vikings?
anyways, i played a game against a mech terran today and rofl stomped him. i shut down his banshee harass with 5 pheonix and an obs, skipped collosus tech until the late game then just a-moved his tank/banshee force with immortal/zealot while storming banshees. i should mention i'm plat and this guy was diamond.
This is one of the point of trying mech for an extended period of time. I do personally do like 90% of my games with mech since like 1 year, so i've seen lots of people trying various strats, lots of potentials counters,etc . . Had to that countless games with pratices partners, clan wars where people know and prepare for their opponent, etc. . . It's easy to say 'mech is not viable,looks at game X or try army X vs army Y' by basing yoursel on a little sample (or based on nothing at all, like a lot of people on this thread do). Most of these people don't even know how a good mech army will look. For nearly everyone, saying 'TvP mech' is like saying 'ok so i open 1 rax FE into 4 gaz into 5 facto making 50 tanks and A moving' or 'ok so i 111 allin every game with 4 tanks'.
In my personal case, lots of people tried to explain me how bad mech TvP is and don't believe me when i say i got to my rank by pure meching. And when i ask them 'Did you at least tried it?' , the only answer i got was 'Not worthing it lol'. Well, for me i could say the same with bio . . . Last edit: 2012-03-15 09:23:51
Each player have his style to play the game. I, personally, like bio since i like be all over the place, doing 2-4 simultaneous drops and being able to get avay with that. Someone like mech feeling more, i am not one to judge.
But even if you did played mech for a year, it won't help educate Protosses on a matter how to deal with mech. To really get how good mech works hundreds of games needed, same terran playing same protoss playing 20-30 games in a row.
I can give a lot of reasons why bio is better, someone can tell that mech is better. But ladder shows which build is simpler and more effective.
This is why i also add pratices partner (people with which you can refined both builds and counter-builds), and clans war (where people can know their opponent 1 week or so before the match, and prepare in order to do it) as example. And also in one year i've encounter same protoss loads of times.
I'm not trying to say that mech is better or anything like that. Just want to say that except if you have a lots of experience with it,saying 'omg mech is trash in TvP' is pointless as you'll just throw random arguments without anything to back it up except "because everybody say it lol" or "any decent toss will easily defeat it" , like nearly everybody is doing on this thread
[B]On March 15 2012 09:22 Lyyna wrote: That's not true. Playing mech with terran has to be approached the same way a standard protoss tech is run. You begin with rax units (gateway units) and continually replace them with stronger units (robo, stargate, templar tech). The problem is protoss tier 1 units are very strong on their own, so they can be retained throughout the game in smaller numbers, unlike terran tier 1. Marines are horrible against most late game compositions from protoss.
I think the answer to protoss is similiar to what QXC said about how zergs are playing now. Everyone has been mimicking Ret and Idra's macro style as zerg and they don't know how to play zerg any other way. Too many people say zerg has to be played "swarm style" when in fact there are other options that need to be explored.
TvP is the same way. We need to get out of this mindset that says MMMVG is the only comp for TvP mid-late game.
This is one of the point of trying mech for an extended period of time. I do personally do like 90% of my games with mech since like 1 year, so i've seen lots of people trying various strats, lots of potentials counters,etc . . Had to that countless games with pratices partners, clan wars where people know and prepare for their opponent, etc. . . It's easy to say 'mech is not viable,looks at game X or try army X vs army Y' by basing yoursel on a little sample (or based on nothing at all, like a lot of people on this thread do). Most of these people don't even know how a good mech army will look. For nearly everyone, saying 'TvP mech' is like saying 'ok so i open 1 rax FE into 4 gaz into 5 facto making 50 tanks and A moving' or 'ok so i 111 allin every game with 4 tanks'.
In my personal case, lots of people tried to explain me how bad mech TvP is and don't believe me when i say i got to my rank by pure meching. And when i ask them 'Did you at least tried it?' , the only answer i got was 'Not worthing it lol'. Well, for me i could say the same with bio
OK, I played MECH during almost the start of starcraft 2 and its not viable ! A lot of people think mech is viable because its work on diamond and lower league. But again master protoss good luck. Because you 'll never beat a mass carrier army anyway. Mech have no answer for lategame, and its only good for a midgame push
btw, lyyna you said that you use mass banshee with your mech army. I tried that style too. Skyterran is viable not mech. I had best result with only sky than the mix with the factory unit.
You say it's not viable in master? I'm high master, and i may be in GM next season. I beat mass carriers by using a combination of ravens with HSM (mass carriers clumps a lot, just like mass BL do), ghosts (EMP + cloack is money), BC (for yamato'ing as much carriers and the often present mother ship) and thors (add some AOE).
I do not use 'mass' banshee. I do add banshee out of 1 starport , sometimes 2, and will get BC out of 2 or 3 starports when on 3/4 bases.
As i said like 25 times, people need to stop thinking of mech as 'make 50 tanks,remove ur brain, A move'. You have the right to play defensive. You have the right to make others units. You have the right to make air and bio units to support your mech.
Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
I dunno if its a mech but i played a PvT vs the guy who went like MnM timing attack like 2 rax into expansion into double fac and banshee...Then he transitioned purely into Marauder medivac with a lot of tanks and some banshees, and some ghosts... I almost lost it :D
On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote: Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote: Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds.
The same is true for Mech. Whether or not Mech is solid enough to become a standard or viable way to play every single TvP, there are builds that do better than others. There are ways to improve those builds. There are timings to hit Protoss with a Mech or semi-Mech army that are capable of winning games against standard Protoss openings. There are things not everyone has tried (EX: Building Barracks to create barriers).
If people like you weren't flooding this thread with pointless discussion where neither side can prove their point, we could discuss ways to improve upon all of these things. Perhaps invent never tried before Mech builds, or discover unknown Mech timings, or we can discuss ways to improve current Mech play. We could optimize and invent Mech openings. We could even analyze replays of Mech TvP'ers and tell them ways to improve their play or things they could have done.
So will you please either contribute to the discussion on How to best play Mech TvP, or if you believe there is no proper response to the question, GTFO and let others actually discuss How to Mech TvP.
On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote: Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote: Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote: Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote: Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you.
Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro.
On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote: Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Mech wont work well unless its a cheesy timing or in low leagues in its current state. It's so slow to get to any kind of decent composition and even that gets rolled incredibly easy. It also opens you up to being harrassed by the toss because your so slow. To even have a chance you have to do catastrophic damage with hellions and even then switching into bio is more effective.
But if you want to keep smashing you head into a brink wall be my guest.
On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote: Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Mech wont work well unless its a cheesy timing or in low leagues in its current state. It's so slow to get to any kind of decent composition and even that gets rolled incredibly easy. It also opens you up to being harrassed by the toss because your so slow. To even have a chance you have to do catastrophic damage with hellions and even then switching into bio is more effective.
But if you want to keep smashing you head into a brink wall be my guest.
I agree, but I still would like to discuss how to improve Mech TvP. Please go discuss the viability of Mech TvP in the appropriate thread.
On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote: Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you.
Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro.
So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply.
On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote: Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you.
Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro.
So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply.
That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved?
mech can't not be improve,becuase it not viable in TvP.People actually don't understand that,the problem that we can't play mech is not the way you play mech is not the proper way,but becuase of the game design.Immortals ,Zealots , Archons , stalkers , pheonix ,voidrays ,mothership is the hard counter to mech .unless you going to do the timing push @ marine banshee thor with +1 armour .i did try so hard to play mech in TvP ,and i got rape so hard.
ps.i just laugh so hard @ people on master level in EU/NA server ,who count them self as a high level player.
My english is so bad,so i apologies people who don't understand my post.
Mech has worked as a 2base 4 fac timing push (2tlab 2reactor / 1 tlab 3 reactor) at least a time or two in gsl, tank hellion marine thing*.
There were also some KR gm reps floating around some time ago of a guy going reactor fe into 1 fact(tlab) into 4 fact(3x reactor) and doing a timing @ ~13:00 min with rallied hellions and then transitioning into tank hellion when not winning outright.
So yes if you want to go into semantics mech is viable. At least that sort of a different variation of those "311"-ish 2base pushes/contains.
Is it viable as a standard "i'm going to passively mech and you can go do whatever" who knows, running comps on unit test maps says "maybe". I for one at least can't really be assed to play standard (boring and I really really don't like the multidrop or die trying style) so I either go some 111 variant with or without expo or for a more passive tank hellion (ghost (viking)) when I feel like it. Funny thing is I probably have a way higher winrate now, not that ~30% is a hard number to beat, I'm actually on a pretty good streak right now and even though it's most often my opponent messing up I am as well and I know I'd still have lost some of those games to the good old 1a even after i emp all the ht's.
*Byun vs Oz at least and apparently mkp vs genius even though I haven't seen that one
On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote: Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Mech wont work well unless its a cheesy timing or in low leagues in its current state. It's so slow to get to any kind of decent composition and even that gets rolled incredibly easy. It also opens you up to being harrassed by the toss because your so slow. To even have a chance you have to do catastrophic damage with hellions and even then switching into bio is more effective.
But if you want to keep smashing you head into a brink wall be my guest.
Mech wont work well unless its a cheesy timing or in low leagues in its current state. It's so slow to get to any kind of decent composition and even that gets rolled incredibly easy. It also opens you up to being harrassed by the toss because your so slow. To even have a chance you have to do catastrophic damage with hellions and even then switching into bio is more effective.
But if you want to keep smashing you head into a brink wall be my guest.
Is high master/GM a low league for you?
I guess that kind of thread on "how to mech" isn't possible on this forum. Too much people randomly trashing this strat without any knowledge of it
Its threads like this that make me lose faith in the sc2 and TL community. This kind of crap is why I left the Bnet forums, yet lo and behold the same behavior is on TL. Those of you coming to this thread to troll and trash mech from gold league or who have never tried it should be ashamed of yourselves. Where are the mods?
On March 15 2012 23:03 crocodile wrote: Its threads like this that make me lose faith in the sc2 and TL community. This kind of crap is why I left the Bnet forums, yet lo and behold the same behavior is on TL. Those of you coming to this thread to troll and trash mech from gold league or who have never tried it should be ashamed of yourselves. Where are the mods?
especially as it works phenomenally at low leagues, as the opponents at that level dont have the multitasking to do the blink and warp in all around the map and Prism and recall play, combined with the lack of sense when it becomes necessary to switch into nonstandard (=not antibio, but antimech) compositions.
On March 14 2012 23:18 sushichef wrote: Have any of you TvP mech players had to deal with speed warp prisms dropping immortals on your tank line? I've never seen this mentioned as a weakness of TvP mech, and it would be scarier than marauder drops in TvT.
Just build turrets and get like 3 vikings
On March 14 2012 16:53 rauk wrote:
On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units..
Have you ever tested this out? Food for food, cost for cost, (provided the Barracks wall) mass tanks beats any non-air Protoss composition, with the exception of mass Immortals. But like 5 ghosts fixes that problem.
100 food of chargelot archon will beat 100+ food of +3 tanks, and chargelot archon is much easier to replace than 30+ tanks. when you're not in a maxed position chargelot archon wrecks tanks even worse. you can claim emp will beat it but you don't have the money for ghosts and get vikings and upgrades and take a third and research cloak and reactor and you can't chase archon zealot with tanks anyways so if protoss gets emp'd he can back off and there's literally nothing you can do about it. i played 100+ games of mech tvp at mid-high masters, it does not work well at all.
Just tried the chargelot/archon vs tanks. I dont think you know of the supreme power of tanks in higher counts. 40chargelots/5archons vs 33tanks on an open field. 18 tanks remain. Add something that will prevent the P from reaching the tanks instantly and you will get very very few tank losses, as the tanks are killing themselves becuase of chargelots.
This was tested with +3 mech dmg (no armor) vs +3+3 ground P. P forces a-moved into sieged tanks.
Sidenote: I've played with tanks vs P since beta and rocking some GM P with it. I think it works well.
Cheers Dan
i did 10 archons and 30 chargelots, spread a bit and amove, and toss wins with 3 or so archons left over.
Splendid! Now you understand why I dont go pure tank and add some rines to it.
On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote: Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you.
Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro.
So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply.
That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved?
you can't have a battle cruiser ghost Thor timing. A lot of shit happens before then. Have you been practicing against bronze Ai that just lets you sit there and build whatever you want?
On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote: Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you.
Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro.
So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply.
That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved?
you can't have a battle cruiser ghost Thor timing. A lot of shit happens before then. Have you been practicing against bronze Ai that just lets you sit there and build whatever you want?
Are you asking me how I get to 3 bases and how I get that army up?
How do you deal with Zealot/Storm comps? Whenever I play vs a Mech Terran, I go Zealot Storm. Mech takes a long time to rebuild, 15 gateways do not.
If the game goes late, mothership actually devastates mech as well with a vortex, you can easily kill 1/2 the army, warp in your replacements, and then kill the other half. And then you have carriers set up which actually destroy mech (even if they lose to marines). I don't think I've ever lost to a real mech play. (i.e. not marine-tank) I just don't think it's the best build, especailly with protoss tending to go heavy gateway/upgrade late game play styles.
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you.
Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro.
So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply.
That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved?
you can't have a battle cruiser ghost Thor timing. A lot of shit happens before then. Have you been practicing against bronze Ai that just lets you sit there and build whatever you want?
Are you asking me how I get to 3 bases and how I get that army up?
So you have a build order that has a specific timing after securing three bases against protoss? Another problem is that you only have 170 supply, so that's roughly about 100 supply in army if you're on three bases. Then 2 battlecruisers, 3 thors, 3 tanks, 4 banshees, one raven and 5 ghosts comes out to about 60 supply. Then there is about 40 supply in additional tanks and hellions. Even still, it doesn't seem like it's a composition that wins because it's powerful, but because your opponent doesn't play well against it.
IF someone can find how to answer these questions mech will become viable.
1- 13-15 min 2base The problem: If this push dont kill him, I dont really see how to make pressure on him(denied his expo, and kill his buildings) and expand safely.Helion, banshee, thors drop ??? And if he got canons in every bases?
2- lategame mass thors+ghost or Battlecruiser+ghost is almost unstoppable for a 200food toss army. The problem: if the protoss have a lot of warpgate, they have a 300food army. I hate zealot+archon. Maybe if I never attack and cut the map in half, I'll never have to fight this 300food army???(Im not very sure about this statement) but its not possible in some map like taldarim.
On March 16 2012 02:45 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: How do you deal with Zealot/Storm comps? Whenever I play vs a Mech Terran, I go Zealot Storm. Mech takes a long time to rebuild, 15 gateways do not.
If the game goes late, mothership actually devastates mech as well with a vortex, you can easily kill 1/2 the army, warp in your replacements, and then kill the other half. And then you have carriers set up which actually destroy mech (even if they lose to marines). I don't think I've ever lost to a real mech play. (i.e. not marine-tank) I just don't think it's the best build, especailly with protoss tending to go heavy gateway/upgrade late game play styles.
A few ways. First, banshees force Stalkers. You can force a lot of Stalker warp ins with a few Banshees which cut into both Zealot and Templar production. Second, Ghosts of course! EMP and Snipe > Storm and Feedback as we all know, so you have the advantage in that fight. And then as far as the core of the army, Siege Tanks, BFH, and fast +2 Mech Armor. Siege Tanks mean that any HT who wants to storm your army dies. BFH are just good against a ton of Chargelots for obvious reasons, and they can force even more Stalker warp ins with runbys, and by kiting the army forever lol.
Also, I've found you can take a faster third against Chargelot/Templar armies as a PF (as opposed to Protosses who go Colossus tech first).
About Mothership: yeah getting off a decent Vortex is basically GG just like in PvZ, but there is no excuse for not EMP'ing a Mothership. It is a huge slow moving target. It's really easy to EMP. The handful of times I have faced Carriers, Thors + Ghosts + 2/2 or 3/3 Battlecruisers just rocks it, because I started upgrading my air a lot sooner than they did, if they did at all.
Never have I faced a Mass Carrier army though, just 2 or 3. Another player said he deals with any sort of mass Air Toss with Raven + HSM, Ghosts, Thors, and Vikings.
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you.
Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro.
So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply.
That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved?
you can't have a battle cruiser ghost Thor timing. A lot of shit happens before then. Have you been practicing against bronze Ai that just lets you sit there and build whatever you want?
Are you asking me how I get to 3 bases and how I get that army up?
So you have a build order that has a specific timing after securing three bases against protoss? Another problem is that you only have 170 supply, so that's roughly about 100 supply in army if you're on three bases. Then 2 battlecruisers, 3 thors, 3 tanks, 4 banshees, one raven and 5 ghosts comes out to about 60 supply. Then there is about 40 supply in additional tanks and hellions. Even still, it doesn't seem like it's a composition that wins because it's powerful, but because your opponent doesn't play well against it.
I think you might be misunderstanding my use of timing, here is the definition I am using (from Liquipedia):
Player-Based Timings
Tech Completion At the completion of an upgrade your army will have a sharp increase in strength. This can be a good time to attack the opponent. As time goes on, the opponent may complete upgrades or get more units evening out the advantage. Another timing is to move out early with one or a few advanced units, using the increased strength of the new unit to make your attack that much stronger.
The attack hinges on the 1/1 Battlecruisers, so I move out as soon as I can safely get to that Tech and the first round of Battlecruisers pops out. Keep in mind I don't just do the hands down every game, If I'm at a severe disadvantage in the game from whatever reason, I will wait to max out for sure. I only do it against the standard HT/Colossus Upgrade heavy gateway army composition. If they go Void Rays fast enough, they can deal with the Battlecruisers, and thus the attack loses its strength. Also, I don't go up to 70 SCV's when meching, you just don't want or need that many Minerals IMO. 16 per mineral field with Mules is more than enough for minerals.
As far as winning because its a powerful composition vs. my opponent not responding correctly. Outside of build order wins, I can't think of a situation/composition where an opponent loses even if they respond correctly (and aren't already far behind). It's a powerful composition against a Protoss who invests in Colossus and HT, instead of in Void Rays. But it isn't an all in, or an auto lose if he has 4-5 Void Rays. Basically this is how it operates within my TvP Mech games. As I'm taking a third, I am also scouting / harassing with Hellions and Banshees. If I scout he has gone for the standard Protoss deathball of Templar Tech and Colossus, then I know I'm good to go and I lay down my second Tech Labbed Starport and Fusion Core and go for it. If I scout Stargate Tech already in production, then my second Starport gets reactored and makes Vikings. I'm not saying it is like some auto-win vs a Protoss who doesn't make Void Rays, but in my experience it is a superior composition to Colossus/HT deathballs when micro'd correctly (as always in TvP, the Ghost/HT battle decides a lot). That said, I don't believe it's perfect or anywhere near it, just that I haven't encountered any problems with it yet.
No offense, but you keep saying "It seems...", when I've tested this scenario in easily 50+ games. Don't you think you should test it yourself instead of just making assumptions when you have no experience with it?
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you.
Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro.
So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply.
That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved?
you can't have a battle cruiser ghost Thor timing. A lot of shit happens before then. Have you been practicing against bronze Ai that just lets you sit there and build whatever you want?
Are you asking me how I get to 3 bases and how I get that army up?
So you have a build order that has a specific timing after securing three bases against protoss? Another problem is that you only have 170 supply, so that's roughly about 100 supply in army if you're on three bases. Then 2 battlecruisers, 3 thors, 3 tanks, 4 banshees, one raven and 5 ghosts comes out to about 60 supply. Then there is about 40 supply in additional tanks and hellions. Even still, it doesn't seem like it's a composition that wins because it's powerful, but because your opponent doesn't play well against it.
I think you might be misunderstanding my use of timing, here is the definition I am using (from Liquipedia):
Player-Based Timings
Tech Completion At the completion of an upgrade your army will have a sharp increase in strength. This can be a good time to attack the opponent. As time goes on, the opponent may complete upgrades or get more units evening out the advantage. Another timing is to move out early with one or a few advanced units, using the increased strength of the new unit to make your attack that much stronger.
The attack hinges on the 1/1 Battlecruisers, so I move out as soon as I can safely get to that Tech and the first round of Battlecruisers pops out. Keep in mind I don't just do the hands down every game, If I'm at a severe disadvantage in the game from whatever reason, I will wait to max out for sure. I only do it against the standard HT/Colossus Upgrade heavy gateway army composition. If they go Void Rays fast enough, they can deal with the Battlecruisers, and thus the attack loses its strength. Also, I don't go up to 70 SCV's when meching, you just don't want or need that many Minerals IMO. 16 per mineral field with Mules is more than enough for minerals.
As far as winning because its a powerful composition vs. my opponent not responding correctly. Outside of build order wins, I can't think of a situation/composition where an opponent loses even if they respond correctly (and aren't already far behind). It's a powerful composition against a Protoss who invests in Colossus and HT, instead of in Void Rays. But it isn't an all in, or an auto lose if he has 4-5 Void Rays. Basically this is how it operates within my TvP Mech games. As I'm taking a third, I am also scouting / harassing with Hellions and Banshees. If I scout he has gone for the standard Protoss deathball of Templar Tech and Colossus, then I know I'm good to go and I lay down my second Tech Labbed Starport and Fusion Core and go for it. If I scout Stargate Tech already in production, then my second Starport gets reactored and makes Vikings. I'm not saying it is like some auto-win vs a Protoss who doesn't make Void Rays, but in my experience it is a superior composition to Colossus/HT deathballs when micro'd correctly (as always in TvP, the Ghost/HT battle decides a lot). That said, I don't believe it's perfect or anywhere near it, just that I haven't encountered any problems with it yet.
No offense, but you keep saying "It seems...", when I've tested this scenario in easily 50+ games. Don't you think you should test it yourself instead of just making assumptions when you have no experience with it?
I would've preferred it if you had explained your timing was based around the production of battlecruisers, in addition to detailing what other units you have. I'll apologize for not understanding immediately that your attack timing relied on the access to battlecruisers.
If you have three mining bases with 16 scv's on minerals and 6 on gas at each base, that comes out to 66 scv's, which is not a far cry from having 70 scv's.
While it is true that I have not tested this build, if you would provide a more detailed style build that you use, as well as a list of which maps you find this strategy to be best used on, I would not mind trying it out.
I've toyed with a mech build against toss as well. The most issues I found is that, yes, blink-stalker and warp prisms are very mobile and can easily get around your army, also, any type of heavy immo play just wrecks this build. Also early harass against any type of expo hurts this build due to lack of gas. It's still a very strong build none the less, just some flaws that need to be ground out eventually.
My personal advices or answers to your flaws : - Blink stalker can be dealt with by well placed sensor towers, allowing you to put ur vikings in position to snipe obs, or bring some hellions/banshees/ravens to deal with it. . . warp prism can be a bit harder, in late game u can afford mass sensor towers, but in early game it's more all about placing some missile turrets,and maybe some patrolling vikings. -Heavy immo play is, in my opinion, one of the worst idea as (in my own conception of mech) a mech army will always have ghosts, some air , and a good "buffer" of cheap units (marines early game, hellions after that). -For the harass in early game,well,that's why mech need really accurate builds (and that's why most people say mech is bad,because they try mech once or twice with a random build and fail). personally i'm using two mains builds : a 111 expo (probably the safest thing possible) and 12 rax 18 double gaz 22 CC into cloakshee,really greedier and requiring more scouting to survive, but can hold a lots of things too and the super early double gas allows a lots of things in midgame
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you.
Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro.
So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply.
That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved?
you can't have a battle cruiser ghost Thor timing. A lot of shit happens before then. Have you been practicing against bronze Ai that just lets you sit there and build whatever you want?
Are you asking me how I get to 3 bases and how I get that army up?
So you have a build order that has a specific timing after securing three bases against protoss? Another problem is that you only have 170 supply, so that's roughly about 100 supply in army if you're on three bases. Then 2 battlecruisers, 3 thors, 3 tanks, 4 banshees, one raven and 5 ghosts comes out to about 60 supply. Then there is about 40 supply in additional tanks and hellions. Even still, it doesn't seem like it's a composition that wins because it's powerful, but because your opponent doesn't play well against it.
I think you might be misunderstanding my use of timing, here is the definition I am using (from Liquipedia):
Player-Based Timings
Tech Completion At the completion of an upgrade your army will have a sharp increase in strength. This can be a good time to attack the opponent. As time goes on, the opponent may complete upgrades or get more units evening out the advantage. Another timing is to move out early with one or a few advanced units, using the increased strength of the new unit to make your attack that much stronger.
The attack hinges on the 1/1 Battlecruisers, so I move out as soon as I can safely get to that Tech and the first round of Battlecruisers pops out. Keep in mind I don't just do the hands down every game, If I'm at a severe disadvantage in the game from whatever reason, I will wait to max out for sure. I only do it against the standard HT/Colossus Upgrade heavy gateway army composition. If they go Void Rays fast enough, they can deal with the Battlecruisers, and thus the attack loses its strength. Also, I don't go up to 70 SCV's when meching, you just don't want or need that many Minerals IMO. 16 per mineral field with Mules is more than enough for minerals.
As far as winning because its a powerful composition vs. my opponent not responding correctly. Outside of build order wins, I can't think of a situation/composition where an opponent loses even if they respond correctly (and aren't already far behind). It's a powerful composition against a Protoss who invests in Colossus and HT, instead of in Void Rays. But it isn't an all in, or an auto lose if he has 4-5 Void Rays. Basically this is how it operates within my TvP Mech games. As I'm taking a third, I am also scouting / harassing with Hellions and Banshees. If I scout he has gone for the standard Protoss deathball of Templar Tech and Colossus, then I know I'm good to go and I lay down my second Tech Labbed Starport and Fusion Core and go for it. If I scout Stargate Tech already in production, then my second Starport gets reactored and makes Vikings. I'm not saying it is like some auto-win vs a Protoss who doesn't make Void Rays, but in my experience it is a superior composition to Colossus/HT deathballs when micro'd correctly (as always in TvP, the Ghost/HT battle decides a lot). That said, I don't believe it's perfect or anywhere near it, just that I haven't encountered any problems with it yet.
No offense, but you keep saying "It seems...", when I've tested this scenario in easily 50+ games. Don't you think you should test it yourself instead of just making assumptions when you have no experience with it?
I would've preferred it if you had explained your timing was based around the production of battlecruisers, in addition to detailing what other units you have. I'll apologize for not understanding immediately that your attack timing relied on the access to battlecruisers.
If you have three mining bases with 16 scv's on minerals and 6 on gas at each base, that comes out to 66 scv's, which is not a far cry from having 70 scv's.
While it is true that I have not tested this build, if you would provide a more detailed style build that you use, as well as a list of which maps you find this strategy to be best used on, I would not mind trying it out.
Sorry if I wasn't clear about the BC's being critical, I thought this made it obvious:
"Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers"
But yeah, they are the brunt of the army, and they force more Stalkers and less Zealots, which IMO is a huge deal in Mech vs Protoss. About the SCV thing, it really isn't a big deal, but like I said, 16 on each mineral patch with Mules is more than enough. I shoot for 60 SCV's total (14 per mineral patch on 3 bases).
Okay I'll do my best to explain how I go about Meching in TvP. I open with Vile Illusions Cloak Banshee/Thor/Marine opening you can see in Day9 Daily #396. Keep in mind if you do enough damage with your banshees you can push with that composition and do a ton of damage if not outright end the game there. Then after 2 or 3 Thors (I don't know which is better yet, the third Thor helps if you are expecting a timing/all in soon, but delays your Tank production, and the faster Tanks help you take a faster third) I lay down 2 more factories, one on the reactor rax, and one I add a tech lab to. Cut Banshees at 4 - they are pretty awful against upgraded Stalkers. I then go into double tank and hellion production, research Siege and BFH, then adding in Ghosts and a 3rd CC as resources allow (Cut SCV's at 60). Scout for the Templar/Colossus Deathball, take your third, add in a second Starport and a Fusion Core, and go for the BCs. Attack when they both pop if everything has gone as planned and continue to rally them in while slow pushing from his 4th (or 3rd if he took a far away 4th, cut it off, and just send a few hellions to clean it up).
Upgrades: I don't know for certain, but I go with the fast +1 armor, add second Armory as it is finishing, then go +1 Mech Weapons and +1 Ship Weapons, and from then on Ship Weapons and Ship Armor.
EDIT: Right, the maps. The best IMO are Antiga, Shakuras, and Cloud Kingdom. Maps like Korhal Compound make it REALLY hard to take your third this fast.
When I mech I dont have a problem with the unit composition, the problem is to be outmacro ! How do you stop expo of a toss ? This is mostly why mech is bad in my opinion.
For exemple in a typical midgame vs a good toss player : I have 3 base and the toss take like 6 base and I can't put any pressure because I don't have enought force too move out and he puts some canons just to be sure i can't use helion and banshee.
Probably you're thinking: I dont care to be outmacro because my max food with battlecruise will crushed anything. But its not true when you're outmacro you can't beat the warpgate infinite army.
so my question: HOW YOU STOP PROTOSS TO EXPAND IN THE MIDGAME???
On March 16 2012 05:35 Gyro_SC2 wrote: When I mech I dont have a problem with the unit composition, the problem is to be outmacro ! How do you stop expo of a toss ? This is mostly why mech is bad in my opinion.
For exemple in a typical midgame vs a good toss player : I have 3 base and the toss take like 6 base and I can't put any pressure because I don't have enought force too move out and he puts some canons just to be sure i can't use helion and banshee.
Probably you're thinking: I dont care to be outmacro because my max food with battlecruise will crushed anything. But its not true when you're outmacro you can't beat the warpgate infinite army.
so my question: HOW YOU STOP PROTOSS TO EXPAND IN THE MIDGAME???
My answer to that is simple : just expo as much as him while getting macro orbitals and putting some pressure with hellion and banshee. The 'orbital per expo" ratio depends of the pressure he's putting on you.
On March 16 2012 05:35 Gyro_SC2 wrote: When I mech I dont have a problem with the unit composition, the problem is to be outmacro ! How do you stop expo of a toss ? This is mostly why mech is bad in my opinion.
For exemple in a typical midgame vs a good toss player : I have 3 base and the toss take like 6 base and I can't put any pressure because I don't have enought force too move out and he puts some canons just to be sure i can't use helion and banshee.
Probably you're thinking: I dont care to be outmacro because my max food with battlecruise will crushed anything. But its not true when you're outmacro you can't beat the warpgate infinite army.
so my question: HOW YOU STOP PROTOSS TO EXPAND IN THE MIDGAME???
The same way you stop it in TvZ. You have a few possible timings you can attack if they decide to get too greedy at any stage. For example, you have a two base timing that hits ~11:00 if the Protoss decides to take a super fast third, and then you have another one at ~15:00, and then you max out at, say, ~18:00. This is the hard thing to figure out with Meching, to make a build that has possible timings but you aren't too committed to them, while still knowing what to look for that gives you the green light for those timings. That's why I think it's super important we all figure out as many Mech Timings as we can, at different times throughout the game. Then we can see if a late game Protoss army is actually stronger than a late game Mech army OR if Protoss has been able to get away with things that are actually greedy, we just don't know how to punish them yet.
I noticed you get blue flame pretty fast, any particular reason for this? I think siege mode might be better, makes you safe vs. that mass gate early pressure timing off 2-3base becoming popular lately. Also blue flame just doesnt seem to be any good to me. Siege mode is way better of defense and its not even good for harassment since workers will still take 3 shots. Only situation it might help is for picking off sentries but they are pretty much useless vs. mech anyways.
As for the timing pushes: I think mech has very potent 2base timings vs. toss that take an early/greedy third. You should check Lyynas replay pack, theres some strong 3fac marine banshee push. Also that 4fac push with 3reactored facs we've seen in the gsl multiple times works very well.
Not sure about that ghost battlecruiser timing to kill 3rd or 4th base someone mentioned. Only tested it vs. a diamond player so far and it looked really strong if you can get into a good position but his scouting was very bad and counter attacks might be devastating.
If protoss techs up on 2bases getting double armory and preparing to take a faster third might be a good option. I dont like turtling to 200/200 however. Hellion drops and Banshees should be good harassing tools during that phase.
Basically, no BF or siege choice is a personal preference. It depends of my mood and my ressources when i start an uppgrade :D. But now i nearly always do siege first now.
Yeah, mech has some really cool pushs, like my 1 rax 3 fact 1 port push, and you can find a lots of these in my olds replays (like january-early feb). But i've now switched backed to pure defensive macro mech again
Basically, no BF or siege choice is a personal preference. It depends of my mood and my ressources when i start an uppgrade :D. But now i nearly always do siege first now.
Yeah, mech has some really cool pushs, like my 1 rax 3 fact 1 port push, and you can find a lots of these in my olds replays (like january-early feb). But i've now switched backed to pure defensive macro mech again
What's your winrate in TvP with that super heavy turtle style you are currently playing? Because I'm about the same level on EU (maybe a little bit lower or higher? I don't know, I think you changed your name ) as you and I like to compare.
edit: Also, have you ever played against Eclipse? If so I'd like to have the replays. Lost twice in the last couple of weeks and would like to see how your style works against it.
In lategame scenario do you feel like you must never attack and try to cut the map in half. If you trade both army, the toss should win so I guess I must turtle and keep my 200food army +strutucture ?
Yeah, i avoid as much as possible to trade army. But even if he's trying too, i know i'll be ahead as long as he fights WHERE i choose to fight, HOW i choose to fights. That's one of the advantage of pure turtling : i cant be out of position
Most are saying Mech does not even work. Really? Read the discussion, it has worked in KR GM ladder. That's pretty much progamer level there. (And Mech has been used by or against Code S level players such as MKP vs MC or that random mech player i talked about earlier who beat slayers brown and such)
Also, people who are saying MKP vs Genius is a bad example is totally wrong. Mech WORKS. There is nothing that mech CAN'T deal with. DIFFICULTY is a different factor -- difficulty is only subjective and hence is only specific to the INDIVIDUAL.
Now if you want to talk about viability as in that it works in BoX for at least 1 set, yes, it beat Genius. Yes, genius let a lot of hellions into his main. But don't you think that mech uses those runbys? It was his poor play that didn't ready him up. You can't just say oh, look, that one time he didn't block those hellions, so he lost so many probes and got way behind! That's the only reason why he lost!
NO. If he were to prepare against all hellion harass, heck he should have had stalkers in his main or such, which would DETRACT from his defense at the front! How does he know MKP wasn't going to drop 4 hellions in instead, but simply run them from the front? Also the other thing is that this requires more thought (he obviously didn't consider it or took the risk of ignoring hellion harass possibilities) and time.
Also, if you watch the game, you'll see that MKP sieged up WAY too late. That's why he lost that battle, even though it was only just barely.
Also, if you say that MKP barely won in the end...? He was ahead in economy, so he KNEW he could keep trading units, even without ghosts. Sure he could have gotten ghosts, but it's not about countering this with that, it's about winning; MKP decided to rely on his economic advantage to just power his way through, instead of worrying about teching, which would put slight bumps and hills into his play. If he wasn't ahead, do you think he would have kept pushing with medium ish armies instead of turtling to safety like a usual mech player does? It was obviously because he wanted to trade armies and keep the Protoss army small. He also saw HTs and that means that Genius was at a weak point -- he lost a lot of probes (and later again loses several), and he could pressure him before he got that very expensive HT tech to pay off. Also, not to mention that attacking with mech is weaker than defending, which is the "best" behavior. Not only does taking initiative give the Protoss a slight defensive advantage via production, it also means that no matter what MKP does, he's not making 100% use of his Siege Mode. If he wants to attack he'll have to siege up nearby, in which the Protoss would come in before he finished sieging. If he's hopping tanks 1 at a time, that takes a bit of focus and APM even if you do it perfectly. If you hop 2 tanks at a time, that makes a small but significant difference in a battle's outcome. If he sieges up and then the Protoss attacks -- then that would simply be a silly move by Protoss, and isn't something that Genius did.
Neither player played perfectly, but they are both Code S level players, and really, that should be all that matters to most of us. It is a built that WORKED, utilized by an humanely imperfect player, vs an equally imperfect player, and won MKP a game. His unit composition with his first push surely did work, and we know that if he had gotten EMP and played passively, he would have fared well composition wise as well. If you look at all those battles where the protoss did a decent job holding off MKP's army, it's cus of all the immortals. Guess what? EMP those immortals, target fire with the tanks, and it's all different from there.
Once again, do not discuss VIABILITY or if MECH WORKS in this thread. This thread is to discuss HOW to mech. If you want to discuss viability of if it "works" then I would say, don't expect to get a response from that, because it's not the intended topic of this thread, unless you are commenting specifically on the OP's build.
Small question for lyyna. Why in tvz lategame when you have a lot of raven/viking you make tank instead of thors ? I feel like mass thors is better than mass tank again ling, ultra, air unit...?
Because tanks deal better with mass lings / ultra /Roaches . You need a critical mass of thors to have an 'invincible' deathball, while 10-15 tanks protected by ravens and hellions are impossible to beat
On March 17 2012 04:41 Gyro_SC2 wrote: How do you stop blink harass. For exemple: collosus+blink stalker attack the main. After they blink away and attack your third ...?
Sensor towers, and try to intercept his army when he's getting in your main. He'll have to choose between fighting you while you're in a better position, or back with his main force and sacrifice his stalkers in your main.
Yeah,i'm thinking about making a guide. but i'm afraid of the kind of reactions we saw on this thread . . . Not really a good source of motivation
4marauders stim DPS= 93,6 (on building) 1 thors DPS= 45,9 1 thors with strike canon DPS= (500 on 6 sec) 83.3 !!!
Conclusion: a thors drop cost the same than a marauder drop, have a decent DPS and with strike canon its has more DPS than the normal marauder drop.
Its too easy for the protoss to make canons and feel safe again the standard helion-banshee harass. Thors drop can be a new way to make pressure and you can always recycle your medivac for helion drop.
the idea itself is good, the problem is more all about loosing part of the drop (you can loose 1 or 2 marauders or marines and still be able to pick up the others. but loosing 1 thor . . and you can't pick up anything) . Also 1 thor is kinda long to product, compared to M&M, as a mech player will not have that many production facility. A good idea would be to get marauders with stim (as you have to get barracks for ghosts) , just a few, for drops. even without attack uppgrades.
And with strike cannon, it's 500 damage over 10 sec (6 sec of firing, 4 sec of preparation)
4marauders stim DPS= 93,6 (on building) 1 thors DPS= 45,9 1 thors with strike canon DPS= (500 on 6 sec) 83.3 !!!
Conclusion: a thors drop cost the same than a marauder drop, have a decent DPS and with strike canon its has more DPS than the normal marauder drop.
Its too easy for the protoss to make canons and feel safe again the standard helion-banshee harass. Thors drop can be a new way to make pressure and you can always recycle your medivac for helion drop.
The maruaders have double dps for 100 less gas, can be healed and are faster. Stike cannon isn't even that much if you factor in the charge up time.
4marauders stim DPS= 93,6 (on building) 1 thors DPS= 45,9 1 thors with strike canon DPS= (500 on 6 sec) 83.3 !!!
Conclusion: a thors drop cost the same than a marauder drop, have a decent DPS and with strike canon its has more DPS than the normal marauder drop.
Its too easy for the protoss to make canons and feel safe again the standard helion-banshee harass. Thors drop can be a new way to make pressure and you can always recycle your medivac for helion drop.
The maruaders have double dps for 100 less gas, can be healed and are faster. Stike cannon isn't even that much if you factor in the charge up time.
Thors can be repair. and its the same time for 4 marauders stim to kill a pylon than the strike canon. And the medivac drop the marauder one at the time, its the same time as the strikecharge.
I just try to think outside the box.
For exemple: Maybe you can drop thors and 4helion in his far expo. With the thors you kill the 2-3 canons and the hellion all the probes ?
Or drop thors and kill tech structure and fly away
On March 17 2012 04:41 Gyro_SC2 wrote: How do you stop blink harass. For exemple: collosus+blink stalker attack the main. After they blink away and attack your third ...?
Sensor towers, and try to intercept his army when he's getting in your main. He'll have to choose between fighting you while you're in a better position, or back with his main force and sacrifice his stalkers in your main.
Yeah,i'm thinking about making a guide. but i'm afraid of the kind of reactions we saw on this thread . . . Not really a good source of motivation
LYNNA, MAKE THE GUIDE! Go please do it!!! I would love to see another mech guide!!!
Lyyna, I watched one of your replay,"nice three factory push". strong in that game, but 15 minutes and the protoss didn't tech to ht, neither colossi, he scouted your composition but didn't answer properly...
took a look to mech nice macro game.. the one against flaitropic... Problem is that this guy didn't counter what he saw, if he had Void rays, your doom ball would have been trash, but he got stalkers, that are hardcountered by your huge ball ;=)
4marauders stim DPS= 93,6 (on building) 1 thors DPS= 45,9 1 thors with strike canon DPS= (500 on 6 sec) 83.3 !!!
Conclusion: a thors drop cost the same than a marauder drop, have a decent DPS and with strike canon its has more DPS than the normal marauder drop.
Its too easy for the protoss to make canons and feel safe again the standard helion-banshee harass. Thors drop can be a new way to make pressure and you can always recycle your medivac for helion drop.
Also it takes forever to get to thors and strike cannon. Marauders and marines are good drop units because they build quickly.
On March 18 2012 03:01 Sergio1992 wrote: Lyyna, I watched one of your replay,"nice three factory push". strong in that game, but 15 minutes and the protoss didn't tech to ht, neither colossi, he scouted your composition but didn't answer properly...
took a look to mech nice macro game.. the one against flaitropic... Problem is that this guy didn't counter what he saw, if he had Void rays, your doom ball would have been trash, but he got stalkers, that are hardcountered by your huge ball ;=)
Protoss don't know how to answer mech I guess. They're not used to it so they panic.
On March 18 2012 03:01 Sergio1992 wrote: Lyyna, I watched one of your replay,"nice three factory push". strong in that game, but 15 minutes and the protoss didn't tech to ht, neither colossi, he scouted your composition but didn't answer properly...
took a look to mech nice macro game.. the one against flaitropic... Problem is that this guy didn't counter what he saw, if he had Void rays, your doom ball would have been trash, but he got stalkers, that are hardcountered by your huge ball ;=)
I know that a lot of players in these replays aren't that good,especially old ones. got to say that i was like 600th in the EU ladder at that time (and at this lvl, i got to say that most protoss are like REALLY terrible), ended up like 60th 2 weeks ago (so the most recent replay show much better opponent).
And due to the first fact, most of my replays usually designate what is done from my side (the 'nice' is here mostly because i was just starting to work on it at that time, and i was thinking my push in this replay was good, and i usually dont talk about the opponent reaction or only in brief terms).
Also , this isn't that uncommon to not tech to colossus vs it : as this lvl ( and yes, there is a HUGE difference between ranks 500-1000 toss and 50-200 ones . . probably the biggest difference in skill i've ever seen in such a little interval of points) protoss scout the 3 fact and usually think "Lololololol go immortal zealot" . . . Versus a colossus tech , basically you can just focus fire with tanks and banshees (enjoy OS'ing colossus). Versus HT it's a bit harder but focus fire, leapfrog and spread is ok in most cases And void rays get wrecked by the mass marines and a reactor starport switch
On March 17 2012 04:41 Gyro_SC2 wrote: How do you stop blink harass. For exemple: collosus+blink stalker attack the main. After they blink away and attack your third ...?
Sensor towers, and try to intercept his army when he's getting in your main. He'll have to choose between fighting you while you're in a better position, or back with his main force and sacrifice his stalkers in your main.
Yeah,i'm thinking about making a guide. but i'm afraid of the kind of reactions we saw on this thread . . . Not really a good source of motivation
LYNNA, MAKE THE GUIDE! Go please do it!!! I would love to see another mech guide!!!
4marauders stim DPS= 93,6 (on building) 1 thors DPS= 45,9 1 thors with strike canon DPS= (500 on 6 sec) 83.3 !!!
Conclusion: a thors drop cost the same than a marauder drop, have a decent DPS and with strike canon its has more DPS than the normal marauder drop.
Its too easy for the protoss to make canons and feel safe again the standard helion-banshee harass. Thors drop can be a new way to make pressure and you can always recycle your medivac for helion drop.
I just needed to say, Strike Cannon's DPS is 500 dmg / 10 seconds = 50 dps. The whole animation (which detracts from normal attacking and so it has to be included) takes 10 seconds. Getting the +1 mech attack upgrade makes a thor just attacking do more dps than strike cannon.
Also I wish I had looked at this thread earlier when there weren't pages upon pages of posts to read through. I'm a master league always-meching terran player as well. I've personally been doing variations on mech where you open cloak banshees and expand while reactoring out marines and making thors with +1 armor first. As I take my third, that's when I transition into full mech with siege tanks and blue flame, and prepare to run by.
Something I do which I think is really really important is just make TONS of sensor towers once I take my third/fourth. It lets you deal with drops from protoss and always get good positioning. I also surround my bases in turrets LOL.
I've been trying out Mech on ladder the last couple of days and having mixed success with it. I had one particularly satisfying game where my army felt so damn efficient against my Protoss opponent! He kept bashing hordes of units into my impenetrable Mech army, and my Battlecruiser transition sealed the deal. However, I've had other games where my army just could not trade efficiently, and the first engagement with the Protoss goes horribly one-sidedly and I get rolled by their remax.
Anyway I'm having trouble knowing if/when to add Ghosts to my composition, and also when to attack to get some use out of the Marines I made to survive the Protoss early game pressure. I usually open with a Reactor Barracks expand (get gas normal timing, take scvs off after 50 to make reactor after 1 marine, plant expo and bunker, put scvs back on gas to make other tech), following up with Cloak Banshees and continuing Banshee production while getting 3 Factories with 2 Reactors 1 Tech Lab. Going so Hellion heavy is useful against Tosses who like heavy Chargelot play vs Mech, or to roast Probes.
I think a good follow up is to do a timing attack around 150 food (many pro gamers like 150 food biomech timing attacks and I think they're very strong), while taking a 3rd, double armory, adding Thors, and switching to viking production if they've gone for colossus, then adding BCs and more Starports when we get to 4 base+. I will continue working on this, but does anyone else knows better solutions to the above mentioned issues (getting rid of dead weight marines, when to take a 3rd, ghosts, etc)?
Also, I'd like to recommend that Reactor barracks opener for mech play. It's very economical, very safe, and makes it so you don't have to add extra barracks to remain safe in the early game (unlike gasless 1 rax expand), while also scaring many Protoss into thinking you're 2 Raxing.
On March 18 2012 03:01 Sergio1992 wrote: Lyyna, I watched one of your replay,"nice three factory push". strong in that game, but 15 minutes and the protoss didn't tech to ht, neither colossi, he scouted your composition but didn't answer properly...
took a look to mech nice macro game.. the one against flaitropic... Problem is that this guy didn't counter what he saw, if he had Void rays, your doom ball would have been trash, but he got stalkers, that are hardcountered by your huge ball ;=)
I know that a lot of players in these replays aren't that good,especially old ones. got to say that i was like 600th in the EU ladder at that time (and at this lvl, i got to say that most protoss are like REALLY terrible), ended up like 60th 2 weeks ago (so the most recent replay show much better opponent).
And due to the first fact, most of my replays usually designate what is done from my side (the 'nice' is here mostly because i was just starting to work on it at that time, and i was thinking my push in this replay was good, and i usually dont talk about the opponent reaction or only in brief terms).
Also , this isn't that uncommon to not tech to colossus vs it : as this lvl ( and yes, there is a HUGE difference between ranks 500-1000 toss and 50-200 ones . . probably the biggest difference in skill i've ever seen in such a little interval of points) protoss scout the 3 fact and usually think "Lololololol go immortal zealot" . . . Versus a colossus tech , basically you can just focus fire with tanks and banshees (enjoy OS'ing colossus). Versus HT it's a bit harder but focus fire, leapfrog and spread is ok in most cases And void rays get wrecked by the mass marines and a reactor starport switch
On March 18 2012 03:01 Sergio1992 wrote: Lyyna, I watched one of your replay,"nice three factory push". strong in that game, but 15 minutes and the protoss didn't tech to ht, neither colossi, he scouted your composition but didn't answer properly...
took a look to mech nice macro game.. the one against flaitropic... Problem is that this guy didn't counter what he saw, if he had Void rays, your doom ball would have been trash, but he got stalkers, that are hardcountered by your huge ball ;=)
I know that a lot of players in these replays aren't that good,especially old ones. got to say that i was like 600th in the EU ladder at that time (and at this lvl, i got to say that most protoss are like REALLY terrible), ended up like 60th 2 weeks ago (so the most recent replay show much better opponent).
And due to the first fact, most of my replays usually designate what is done from my side (the 'nice' is here mostly because i was just starting to work on it at that time, and i was thinking my push in this replay was good, and i usually dont talk about the opponent reaction or only in brief terms).
Also , this isn't that uncommon to not tech to colossus vs it : as this lvl ( and yes, there is a HUGE difference between ranks 500-1000 toss and 50-200 ones . . probably the biggest difference in skill i've ever seen in such a little interval of points) protoss scout the 3 fact and usually think "Lololololol go immortal zealot" . . . Versus a colossus tech , basically you can just focus fire with tanks and banshees (enjoy OS'ing colossus). Versus HT it's a bit harder but focus fire, leapfrog and spread is ok in most cases And void rays get wrecked by the mass marines and a reactor starport switch
Also: are you saying you stay on Banshee production out of your Starports even if you see the opponent going for Colossus? I haven't tried it, but I would love it if Tank/Banshee teamwork is enough to keep you safe vs Colossi, so that I don't have to go switching my Starport addons around, especially since I love a lategame BC transition. I don't know though, so if you don't tell me otherwise I'll be trying it tonight
4marauders stim DPS= 93,6 (on building) 1 thors DPS= 45,9 1 thors with strike canon DPS= (500 on 6 sec) 83.3 !!!
Conclusion: a thors drop cost the same than a marauder drop, have a decent DPS and with strike canon its has more DPS than the normal marauder drop.
Its too easy for the protoss to make canons and feel safe again the standard helion-banshee harass. Thors drop can be a new way to make pressure and you can always recycle your medivac for helion drop.
I just needed to say, Strike Cannon's DPS is 500 dmg / 10 seconds = 50 dps. The whole animation (which detracts from normal attacking and so it has to be included) takes 10 seconds. Getting the +1 mech attack upgrade makes a thor just attacking do more dps than strike cannon.
Also I wish I had looked at this thread earlier when there weren't pages upon pages of posts to read through. I'm a master league always-meching terran player as well. I've personally been doing variations on mech where you open cloak banshees and expand while reactoring out marines and making thors with +1 armor first. As I take my third, that's when I transition into full mech with siege tanks and blue flame, and prepare to run by.
Something I do which I think is really really important is just make TONS of sensor towers once I take my third/fourth. It lets you deal with drops from protoss and always get good positioning. I also surround my bases in turrets LOL.
the only important thing about strike cannon is that vs immortals it rapes, because of the way spell damage works. i dont think its been changed, but maybe im wrong, i dont play terran.
@Crocodile : yes, i do use banshees even vs colossus. One thing i hate with vikings to counter colossus is that they ends up in 'dead supply' if there is no colossus or if they're dead . . . and banshee with bio isn't good. But cloack shee are REALLY good with mech (harass,forcing obs from robo, forcing stalkers,etc) . . .
@Halfies : a mix of banshee thor tank and banshee already deals OK with immortals. And ghosts just seal the deal
well,anyway, starting to work on the guide. will take a long time though . .
On March 19 2012 15:07 Gyro_SC2 wrote: Does someone know when I should try a 2base push (15min)? which protoss build is weak vs 2thors+6tank+somehelion ?
Search for a few latest TvPs of Goody, I saw him doing very strong 2base mech push.. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that 15min is too late.. .More like 12-13 min. If I recall correctly, you should hit at about 100-120 supply.
The colossus production will kick in at about 12:00 if he does the standard 1 gate expand
Hence, protoss are weakest before then.
There is a strong 4 factory push (1 tech 3 reactor) where you hit at ~11:10 with about 4 tanks, about 30 marines, and 4 BFH, with 6 BFH constantly being pumped out every 30 seconds to reinforce. This is actually a three base push, but you don't get your third until a bit before you start the last 3 factories. It should finish a bit before the 3 reactors finish.
There is also a variant where you don't get a third (at least, not until the push) and it hits at ~10:30 but with 3 factories (1 tech, 2 reactor, due to less income). But because of delaying the third, the build is smoother and you can get that stuff out faster and thus hit earlier.
This is the one MKP used vs Genius in GSL 2012 Season 1, game 1 of the 2nd group stage.
Basically the builds for both are this:
Rax, gas, OC, depot, CC, reactor, bunker, gas, factory, tech on fact, siege tank + siege mode, then at 8:10 or 7:30 you throw down 3 or 2 factories respectively, and move out at 10:30 or 9:50 respectively.
There may be some variation, especially with the CC/depot/reactor/bunker/2ndgas/factory timing, it doesn't matter tooo much. Of course if you want to have it super tight it matters, but find a style that you like. I've seen many different variants on this, like pulling some guys out of the first gas to get the CC faster, then getting the 2nd gas earlier, some make 2 Marines then cut a bit so they can get bunker on time instead, some make 3 marines at the ramp and skip the bunker, etc. etc.
I don't know of a thor/tank/hellion push that is strong. I don't think there can be one, because thors are unnecessary at this time without banshees' synergy. Tanks do well vs Stalkers, and hellions do well vs chargelots. The armory would be a waste of gas and you wouldn't have enough anti-chargelot without many hellions. If you push after 12:00 you'll start to need EMP. And with thor, armory, and 6 ish tanks, you won't have enough gas unless you delay past 11:30 timing which would be weak without ghosts and viking/banshee for colossus.
15:00 is too late of a timing for 2 base anyways, and if you're on 3 base, then you should have just keep turtling to 200/200.
Awesome games sir, wp.. :-) You definitely need to write guide, as your style (in all 3 matchups) has very "Terran feel" to it and I think a lot of Terrans that are stressed out and feel like playing against clock don't even know you can play like this..
Also, I don't give a shit about all those players that flame you as "abuser", it's the only way to play other than throwing bio all game long only to lose at 15min mark..
How tweaked is your build, can it hold most common allins from P? How does it fare against 3g void? Also, where are you currently sitting like league/rank? I really love how you completly fuck with the idea "Terran is supposed to apply pressure or die TvP/TvZ" lol.. Gonna steal a lot of stuff.. :-)
edit: Also, big thanks to tom_baburger, the OP for being such a badass not giving up until this thread finally produced very good discussion, replays and hopefully can open eyes for a lot of Terrans out there..
Thanks for this message Everlong. Always nice to read it.
Well, if i open 111 expo, it's really safe versus everything as you can do wathever needed to defend the attack (viking or banshees, tanks or hellions,marines,etc). With the 1 rax double gas expo,it's a bit harder, but what i've been trying vs somebody who tried to 4 gate VR me is to just cancel the expo, and get 2 rax while my factory is coming,and 311 > most toss allin
my rank is : http://sc2ranks.com/eu/760298/IvDLyyna (the name isn't good, renamed to PhX‡Lyyna). Didn't ladder for last 4 days so i get a bit down in the ladder, and my best 'peak' is ~~50ish master
My opening: I open with a early thors push. Its very safe. If the protoss expo before me, I push with my 2 thors and I try to make the protoss freak out and cancel his expo, so my CC is before him.
I feel the only safe opening to mech is to 1-1-1 or early thors.
If not you have to build unnecessary barrack to defend the natural.(unnecessary in the logic of :I don't like making rax when I want to MECH) The build of MKP with reator-rax + early tank seen vulnerable to 3gate+VR, or blink stalker.
In my opinion, there is a lot of ways to be safe for mech. Getting thors allows you to hold 2 bases stuff (basically immo sentry bust). For 1 base you can't get thors AND expo fast enough so. . well, 111 getting marines, tanks and banshees OR vikings is really good, but expo is kind of delayed . . . 1 rax reactor expo is OK in most cases (only have some problem vs drops . . . as you need bunker to defend :/) as you get a huge number of marines . My 1 rax double gas expo can hold most things too due to early reactor and fast banshee after expo ,but can also requires to cancel the CC and go 311 to counter allin him
First off, Lyyna, awesome replays; those are fantastic. I was watching one (the long macro game) and was just absolutely giddy to see a Terran composition ruining a maxed Protoss army playing as though he could just a-move. As I was watching it kind of just "clicked" and I realized that while Bio can, if properly micro'd, compete with a Protoss Deathball, it shouldn't be expected to compete. It's all tier 1 units with upgrades and Medivacs! Seeing your deathball with Thors, Ghosts, Battlecruisers, etc. just makes sense now!
I really think that the work here is going to change the match-up. We'll still have Terrans doing the "high-pressure" bio style. But this mech play makes more sense from a late-game perspective and, as it should be, is more difficult to make it through early game.
There are a ton of options here for variations.
We already have 111 builds that, due to lack of variance, makes a Protoss prepare for an all-in. Until we transition out of this, a 111 style Mech opener will be very strong. This is because Protoss will prepare for the all-in while we move on from the 111 into Macro play without sacrificing a big push. Eventually however, this might become less foolhardy due to an increase of players saying "Okay, 111, but where is he going from here?"
Then there is the fast Thor play. I see this as being the safest early game, but also the slowest transition to late game. Thors act as, essentially, moving Bunkers and are always welcome in a composition. They will take away from any sort of timing push however, due to the reasoning Yoshi Kirishima pointed out.
Reactor Hellion might be an interesting way to open up. Basically like a standard Zerg opener. As long as you do some economic damage early, you should be safe with a few bunkers and a transition to 1/3/2. This is risky but can lead to a simple late game timing push around the time you take your third.
I really like your build though. The reactor-rax FE is very risky, but leads to another easy timing push that can cripple a greedy Protoss.
Another thing I'd like to note is that, unless you scout Stargate; Vikings just aren't worth it. A Banshee is very effective against Colossi and won't be dead weight later. If need be you can always swap the Reactors from your factories to the starports and pump more Thors/Vikings in emergency situation.
Lyyna I would LOVE to help you write a guide. I am a Diamond US Terran and love writing theorycraft. I sent you a PM. I'm going to keep working on this Mech play!
You do point out a lots of good things with some commin mech openings, so i'll do a little summary of what i think of these : -As said, 111 allows the most versability at defending allins, a relatively fast expo (6min), and the fact protoss go into "OMG U NOOB T ALLINER" when they see 111 helps a lot too. It's the opening i would recommend to people starting with mech, or just wanting a safe opening
-Fast thor allows for super safe early once you have the thor, but you have to rush for it and delay the CC hard :/. I prefer to get it after a 111 expo or after a 1 rax double gas CC > cloackshee > thor.
-Reactor hellion is interesting yeah. On big maps where protoss will always 1 gate FE, you can get a really big economic advantage by roasting a few probes. Also allows a bit of 'metaming' as you can transition into biomech or bio with super fast medivacs to fool your opponent.
-Reactor rax Expo is really good too yes. With bunkers,it can hold everything the protoss is doing,which is of course really helpful vs these cheesers :D.
Basically, the safest is the 111 expo, the 'greediest' is my 1 rax 2 gas CC, Reactor Rax Expo is in the middle (really fast exp, really good defense), and Reactor hellion/Fast thor are here as some 'emergency' builds
Simple build for people who want to play effective and fun Mech TVP 1rax expand, double gas. 1 or 2 bunkers. constantly pump marines. 2 techlab factories, 1 reactor factory. Constantly build units, start Mech upgrades. Scan to see enemy unit composition. If necessary counter it by adding for example vikings. 3rd CC, secure it. Max out at around 14-15 minutes, add 4 barracks with your mineral surplus. Fly those barracks with your army and use them for terran force fields. Press enemy back. Put a lot of pressure on him. Spoon him to death. Win.
On March 20 2012 02:40 TigerKarl wrote: Max out at around 14-15 minutes, add 4 barracks with your mineral surplus. Fly those barracks with your army and use them for terran force fields. Press enemy back. Put a lot of pressure on him. Spoon him to death. Win.
Quoting this to emphasize how awesome/effective it is to bring barracks with your mech army.
On March 20 2012 02:40 TigerKarl wrote: Max out at around 14-15 minutes, add 4 barracks with your mineral surplus. Fly those barracks with your army and use them for terran force fields. Press enemy back. Put a lot of pressure on him. Spoon him to death. Win.
Quoting this to emphasize how awesome/effective it is to bring barracks with your mech army.
It is a game changer that can make victories out of losses. We've seen players using their factories to mess with protoss a-move attacks, but barracks are cheaper and mech benefits more from creating your own battlefields.
Interesting read, I've used a fair bit of mech myself but I notice you don't mention anything about ghost/emp. I always found that when you get into the lategame and toss ads some extra robos for mass immortal, and then also adds a bunch of archons it can get real hairy without emp (when toss has like 6-8 immortals and 8-10 archons) with a bunch of zealots and storm, they can eat through your army pretty damn fast, faster than you can eat through theirs, at least in my experience. what are your thoughts?
FYI I didn't read through all the comments (too many idiots/trolls on tl) so sorry if this already been discussed, but it wasn't covered in your edit.
Edit: ok just watched your 6th replay on tal darim since you specified it went to late game. Seriously wtf? what league was this, I assume that toss was at least 2 leagues below you or has NEVER played vs mech ever, he repeatedly scouted mech and didn't react until he had already lost (200 vs 135 supply lol) by making immortals and archons, he amoved into your sieged natural into a choke FOR NO REASON AT ALL, his expo timing was aweful. The list could go on.
One thing that really really annoys me when people make a thread about mech is when they provide utter shit replays against either a complete noob or someone who doesn't know how to play vs mech. Please post a replay where the game goes above 30 minutes, toss abuses mechs immobility by expanding everywhere, by making the actual unit counters, by harassing with warp prism/blink stalkers, doesn't attack into a fully sieged position INTO a choke with the WRONG unit comp for NO REASON, makes cannons at all his expos to defend against hellions and all the other shit that makes mech hard to play
To your point, BigBossX, I think he, and most Protoss, A+move into things because that's just how Protoss works. It's rare you find a Protoss who has good micro. They're so use to their deathballs and attack move that they don't know what to do when tactical skill comes into play.
On March 20 2012 03:56 Norseman wrote: To your point, BigBossX, I think he, and most Protoss, A+move into things because that's just how Protoss works. It's rare you find a Protoss who has good micro. They're so use to their deathballs and attack move that they don't know what to do when tactical skill comes into play.
Right! And everything that is difficult about mech play, is what is difficult for Protoss to deal with as well. Dealing with drops, doing drops, expanding without difficulty.
Terran has sensor towers to see drops coming and respond with Vikings/Hellions/Marines. If the Protoss is cannoning his expos, he is wasting minerals. Siege him up! Dropping 2 tanks with 4 Hellions will allow you to assault the cannons, while fending off warped in Zealots. It's a costly drop, but that will force the Protoss to either waste warp ins, or respond heavily; resulting in great positioning.
On March 20 2012 03:06 BigBossX wrote: Interesting read, I've used a fair bit of mech myself but I notice you don't mention anything about ghost/emp. I always found that when you get into the lategame and toss ads some extra robos for mass immortal, and then also adds a bunch of archons it can get real hairy without emp (when toss has like 6-8 immortals and 8-10 archons) with a bunch of zealots and storm, they can eat through your army pretty damn fast, faster than you can eat through theirs, at least in my experience. what are your thoughts?
FYI I didn't read through all the comments (too many idiots/trolls on tl) so sorry if this already been discussed, but it wasn't covered in your edit.
Edit: ok just watched your 6th replay on tal darim since you specified it went to late game. Seriously wtf? what league was this, I assume that toss was at least 2 leagues below you or has NEVER played vs mech ever, he repeatedly scouted mech and didn't react until he had already lost (200 vs 135 supply lol) by making immortals and archons, he amoved into your sieged natural into a choke FOR NO REASON AT ALL, his expo timing was aweful. The list could go on.
One thing that really really annoys me when people make a thread about mech is when they provide utter shit replays against either a complete noob or someone who doesn't know how to play vs mech. Please post a replay where the game goes above 30 minutes, toss abuses mechs immobility by expanding everywhere, by making the actual unit counters, by harassing with warp prism/blink stalkers, doesn't attack into a fully sieged position INTO a choke with the WRONG unit comp for NO REASON, makes cannons at all his expos to defend against hellions and all the other shit that makes mech hard to play
There are some terrible Protoss players in those replays, but there are some good ones, which really react properly and abuses mech as much as they can.. The thing is, they all get smashed in the same fashion no matter how bad/good they play.. It's just a matter of time..
I have been messing with mech for a few days in tvp. I dont want to start a new thread because I dont have a structured post prepared, but I wrote down startalevirus' build order from his up/down match with huk. It is a two base 1/1/1 marine/thor/banshee/raven timing with early cloak banshee harass. You addon a 2nd factory and starport before moving out. I have yet to lose a game with this 2 base push against toss. I was a bit nervous the fist time I tried the build because I am so used to getting smashed by a toss army, but when i met his 3 collosus army in the middle of the map, i just pdd'd and a moved right over him. I havnt lost yet with the build and prob only tried it 6 or 7 times. If you dont feel like A-moving you can just cast pdd and use the banshees to focus down all the stalkers which basically means game over even if he somehow manages to kill your thors(neever lost a single thor). I always bring 8-12 scv for repair depending on how late i move out, and i jst rally my 1/2/2 production building to his ramp. Pretty much annialates any toss that takes a 3rd. The only problem I am having is refining the build order to be more fficient. Even though I copied down the order virus used, it plays out diff in every game and I of course dont have pro mechanics. I been using single player custom games against the computer to practice the BO and perfect it, but there has to be a better way. ANyone have any ideas? Or anyone want to take the roder I wrote down and refine it? I got it planned out all the way to 114 supply
On March 20 2012 03:06 BigBossX wrote: Interesting read, I've used a fair bit of mech myself but I notice you don't mention anything about ghost/emp. I always found that when you get into the lategame and toss ads some extra robos for mass immortal, and then also adds a bunch of archons it can get real hairy without emp (when toss has like 6-8 immortals and 8-10 archons) with a bunch of zealots and storm, they can eat through your army pretty damn fast, faster than you can eat through theirs, at least in my experience. what are your thoughts?
FYI I didn't read through all the comments (too many idiots/trolls on tl) so sorry if this already been discussed, but it wasn't covered in your edit.
Edit: ok just watched your 6th replay on tal darim since you specified it went to late game. Seriously wtf? what league was this, I assume that toss was at least 2 leagues below you or has NEVER played vs mech ever, he repeatedly scouted mech and didn't react until he had already lost (200 vs 135 supply lol) by making immortals and archons, he amoved into your sieged natural into a choke FOR NO REASON AT ALL, his expo timing was aweful. The list could go on.
One thing that really really annoys me when people make a thread about mech is when they provide utter shit replays against either a complete noob or someone who doesn't know how to play vs mech. Please post a replay where the game goes above 30 minutes, toss abuses mechs immobility by expanding everywhere, by making the actual unit counters, by harassing with warp prism/blink stalkers, doesn't attack into a fully sieged position INTO a choke with the WRONG unit comp for NO REASON, makes cannons at all his expos to defend against hellions and all the other shit that makes mech hard to play
I think Lyyna plays some topMaster/GM, and these replays actually show how bad a protoss is, even in top league. They just abuse of their power against bio because of collosi and HT hardcounter it without heavy micro, but when they face this style, they are completely lost. And until topGM, I don't think they're good enough to deal with it.
It's like now Bio with Protoss, it's very hard to micro everything,
On March 20 2012 06:35 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I find a new way to remove the energy of the thors !
You can do a strike canon on your own thors and cancel the ability (with escape), that will remove 150 energy for each of your thors.
We can do the mass thors like thorzain ! :D
Hmm, you could also just use it on your scvs before fight to free up supply which is something you want to do anyways.. Althought I admit I would feel really "dirty" for doing this.. :D Anyways, going to try how it works and most importantly, whether it's safe!
Ok my response is going to seem really negative and I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing but i think a lot of you missed the points I was trying to make
On March 20 2012 03:56 Norseman wrote: To your point, BigBossX, I think he, and most Protoss, A+move into things because that's just how Protoss works. It's rare you find a Protoss who has good micro. They're so use to their deathballs and attack move that they don't know what to do when tactical skill comes into play.
I don't think it's a matter of amove vs micro, more like picking your battles and using the correct unit composition. In the replay I was referring to the toss just grouped his whole army of zeals stalker colossi and ht and just amoved into terrans natural on tal darim, terran was fully sieged and sitting just above the choke, there was no way in hell he was going to break that position and would have even struggled if terran went bio. My entire point was that toss (with a poor unit composition vs mech) just amoved into him for absolutely no reason. This is just incredibly poor and low level play, toss could have moved to his third and forced him to reposition, dropped in his main and forced him to split some of his army, or even just sat outside siege range (and stayed there because terran wasn't threatening any expos, wasn't massing any t3 or doing anything at all, toss had 0 reason to attack but still did) and denied a 4th until terran had to push out and then attempt to catch him unsieged or partly sieged.
On March 20 2012 03:56 Norseman wrote: To your point, BigBossX, I think he, and most Protoss, A+move into things because that's just how Protoss works. It's rare you find a Protoss who has good micro. They're so use to their deathballs and attack move that they don't know what to do when tactical skill comes into play.
Right! And everything that is difficult about mech play, is what is difficult for Protoss to deal with as well. Dealing with drops, doing drops, expanding without difficulty.
Terran has sensor towers to see drops coming and respond with Vikings/Hellions/Marines. If the Protoss is cannoning his expos, he is wasting minerals. Siege him up! Dropping 2 tanks with 4 Hellions will allow you to assault the cannons, while fending off warped in Zealots. It's a costly drop, but that will force the Protoss to either waste warp ins, or respond heavily; resulting in great positioning.
This is just flat out wrong, I'm not even sure where to begin. How is building 3 cannons to save an entire probe line a waste of money? NOT building the cannons and losing all the probes would be the waste, especially when you enter late game and have 4-6 bases running.
On a lot of maps there just isn't the space to drop tanks out of cannon range and siege up, and all toss has to do is warp a round of zealots around/near the tanks and the drop is dealt with, or send a few of his beefy units over to deal, like immortals, colossi archons blink stalkers. I find the only way to effectively drop after toss has cannoned is to use a pdd or 2 to soak up the hits and just micro the hellions.
As for forcing him into giving you a good position ... what? Most hellion harass is done from a defensive position, as in terran is sieged at or near his freshest expo and sends his hellions around, if terran tries to distract with hellions and rush into a good position, toss just amoves and catches him unsieged/partly sieged. Gratz you killed 94 probes, but you have 0 army and he still has 100 supply of army left? GG
On March 20 2012 03:06 BigBossX wrote: Interesting read, I've used a fair bit of mech myself but I notice you don't mention anything about ghost/emp. I always found that when you get into the lategame and toss ads some extra robos for mass immortal, and then also adds a bunch of archons it can get real hairy without emp (when toss has like 6-8 immortals and 8-10 archons) with a bunch of zealots and storm, they can eat through your army pretty damn fast, faster than you can eat through theirs, at least in my experience. what are your thoughts?
FYI I didn't read through all the comments (too many idiots/trolls on tl) so sorry if this already been discussed, but it wasn't covered in your edit.
Edit: ok just watched your 6th replay on tal darim since you specified it went to late game. Seriously wtf? what league was this, I assume that toss was at least 2 leagues below you or has NEVER played vs mech ever, he repeatedly scouted mech and didn't react until he had already lost (200 vs 135 supply lol) by making immortals and archons, he amoved into your sieged natural into a choke FOR NO REASON AT ALL, his expo timing was aweful. The list could go on.
One thing that really really annoys me when people make a thread about mech is when they provide utter shit replays against either a complete noob or someone who doesn't know how to play vs mech. Please post a replay where the game goes above 30 minutes, toss abuses mechs immobility by expanding everywhere, by making the actual unit counters, by harassing with warp prism/blink stalkers, doesn't attack into a fully sieged position INTO a choke with the WRONG unit comp for NO REASON, makes cannons at all his expos to defend against hellions and all the other shit that makes mech hard to play
I think Lyyna plays some topMaster/GM, and these replays actually show how bad a protoss is, even in top league. They just abuse of their power against bio because of collosi and HT hardcounter it without heavy micro, but when they face this style, they are completely lost. And until topGM, I don't think they're good enough to deal with it.
It's like now Bio with Protoss, it's very hard to micro everything,
This is quite contradictory to the point I was making, my whole point was that he put up replay of bad protoss who didn't react to mech play until the game was lost. It's not that NO toss below GM can deal with mech, but the replay showed a toss who just refused to respond. I assure you even master level toss WHO ACTUALLY RESPOND to what they scout can make mech terran very hard to execute simply because toss have so many good units to counter mech and sim city/cannons negate one of mechs biggest damage dealers, the BFHs roasting probes. It's really easy to win a tvp when you have double the econ of the toss cus he didn't defend against hellions correctly. But you try that shit vs a solid toss with some basic ideas of how to deal with mech, it gets very very hard.
Also I don't see why people keep bringing micro into it, toss still doesn't need that much micro to beat mech terran, just good unit compositions and half decent positioning and an idea of when they should or should not attack (if hes sieged and isn't threatening you in anyway plz dont amove into the tanks) and where to attack (hes sieged at his natural? GO KILL HIS THIRD) makes amoving over mech army a doddle.
Really the only way to make mech work in TvP is Thor/Hellion/Raven/banshee/viking with some ghosts in my opinion, any tank based play will be absolutely destroyed by any competent protoss player. Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore, and that should be a good proof. I don't see a problem with lategame toss, as long as you can secure gas income from 8 geysers you can mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of.
On March 20 2012 06:53 BigBossX wrote: Ok my response is going to seem really negative and I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing but i think a lot of you missed the points I was trying to make
On March 20 2012 03:56 Norseman wrote: To your point, BigBossX, I think he, and most Protoss, A+move into things because that's just how Protoss works. It's rare you find a Protoss who has good micro. They're so use to their deathballs and attack move that they don't know what to do when tactical skill comes into play.
I don't think it's a matter of amove vs micro, more like picking your battles and using the correct unit composition. In the replay I was referring to the toss just grouped his whole army of zeals stalker colossi and ht and just amoved into terrans natural on tal darim, terran was fully sieged and sitting just above the choke, there was no way in hell he was going to break that position and would have even struggled if terran went bio. My entire point was that toss (with a poor unit composition vs mech) just amoved into him for absolutely no reason. This is just incredibly poor and low level play, toss could have moved to his third and forced him to reposition, dropped in his main and forced him to split some of his army, or even just sat outside siege range (and stayed there because terran wasn't threatening any expos, wasn't massing any t3 or doing anything at all, toss had 0 reason to attack but still did) and denied a 4th until terran had to push out and then attempt to catch him unsieged or partly sieged.
On March 20 2012 03:56 Norseman wrote: To your point, BigBossX, I think he, and most Protoss, A+move into things because that's just how Protoss works. It's rare you find a Protoss who has good micro. They're so use to their deathballs and attack move that they don't know what to do when tactical skill comes into play.
Right! And everything that is difficult about mech play, is what is difficult for Protoss to deal with as well. Dealing with drops, doing drops, expanding without difficulty.
Terran has sensor towers to see drops coming and respond with Vikings/Hellions/Marines. If the Protoss is cannoning his expos, he is wasting minerals. Siege him up! Dropping 2 tanks with 4 Hellions will allow you to assault the cannons, while fending off warped in Zealots. It's a costly drop, but that will force the Protoss to either waste warp ins, or respond heavily; resulting in great positioning.
This is just flat out wrong, I'm not even sure where to begin. How is building 3 cannons to save an entire probe line a waste of money? NOT building the cannons and losing all the probes would be the waste, especially when you enter late game and have 4-6 bases running.
On a lot of maps there just isn't the space to drop tanks out of cannon range and siege up, and all toss has to do is warp a round of zealots around/near the tanks and the drop is dealt with, or send a few of his beefy units over to deal, like immortals, colossi archons blink stalkers. I find the only way to effectively drop after toss has cannoned is to use a pdd or 2 to soak up the hits and just micro the hellions.
As for forcing him into giving you a good position ... what? Most hellion harass is done from a defensive position, as in terran is sieged at or near his freshest expo and sends his hellions around, if terran tries to distract with hellions and rush into a good position, toss just amoves and catches him unsieged/partly sieged. Gratz you killed 94 probes, but you have 0 army and he still has 100 supply of army left? GG
On March 20 2012 03:06 BigBossX wrote: Interesting read, I've used a fair bit of mech myself but I notice you don't mention anything about ghost/emp. I always found that when you get into the lategame and toss ads some extra robos for mass immortal, and then also adds a bunch of archons it can get real hairy without emp (when toss has like 6-8 immortals and 8-10 archons) with a bunch of zealots and storm, they can eat through your army pretty damn fast, faster than you can eat through theirs, at least in my experience. what are your thoughts?
FYI I didn't read through all the comments (too many idiots/trolls on tl) so sorry if this already been discussed, but it wasn't covered in your edit.
Edit: ok just watched your 6th replay on tal darim since you specified it went to late game. Seriously wtf? what league was this, I assume that toss was at least 2 leagues below you or has NEVER played vs mech ever, he repeatedly scouted mech and didn't react until he had already lost (200 vs 135 supply lol) by making immortals and archons, he amoved into your sieged natural into a choke FOR NO REASON AT ALL, his expo timing was aweful. The list could go on.
One thing that really really annoys me when people make a thread about mech is when they provide utter shit replays against either a complete noob or someone who doesn't know how to play vs mech. Please post a replay where the game goes above 30 minutes, toss abuses mechs immobility by expanding everywhere, by making the actual unit counters, by harassing with warp prism/blink stalkers, doesn't attack into a fully sieged position INTO a choke with the WRONG unit comp for NO REASON, makes cannons at all his expos to defend against hellions and all the other shit that makes mech hard to play
I think Lyyna plays some topMaster/GM, and these replays actually show how bad a protoss is, even in top league. They just abuse of their power against bio because of collosi and HT hardcounter it without heavy micro, but when they face this style, they are completely lost. And until topGM, I don't think they're good enough to deal with it.
It's like now Bio with Protoss, it's very hard to micro everything,
This is quite contradictory to the point I was making, my whole point was that he put up replay of bad protoss who didn't react to mech play until the game was lost. It's not that NO toss below GM can deal with mech, but the replay showed a toss who just refused to respond. I assure you even master level toss WHO ACTUALLY RESPOND to what they scout can make mech terran very hard to execute simply because toss have so many good units to counter mech and sim city/cannons negate one of mechs biggest damage dealers, the BFHs roasting probes. It's really easy to win a tvp when you have double the econ of the toss cus he didn't defend against hellions correctly. But you try that shit vs a solid toss with some basic ideas of how to deal with mech, it gets very very hard.
Also I don't see why people keep bringing micro into it, toss still doesn't need that much micro to beat mech terran, just good unit compositions and half decent positioning and an idea of when they should or should not attack (if hes sieged and isn't threatening you in anyway plz dont amove into the tanks) and where to attack (hes sieged at his natural? GO KILL HIS THIRD) makes amoving over mech army a doddle.
Hey, you acutely inteligent writer, what about actually watching all of these replays? You would realize there are many were Protoss actually does everything you said and still loses horribly. You could save yourself a lot o time and my nerves..
On March 20 2012 07:00 yoigen wrote: Really the only way to make mech work in TvP is Thor/Hellion/Raven/banshee/viking with some ghosts in my opinion, any tank based play will be absolutely destroyed by any competent protoss player. Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore, and that should be a good proof. I don't see a problem with lategame toss, as long as you can secure gas income from 8 geysers you can mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of.
Here we go again, such a brilliant answer from our random diamond player that just throws it out there without thinking at all.. Have you ever watched a single pro game? How about those 2-3k gas floating late-game? Do you really think those guys would not go for your "mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of."? Don't get me even started on "Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore".. Seriously, we've had a lot of bad, bad, baaad posts here exactly like yours..
edit: I'm sorry for being a bit too aggresive, but my god, just don't post random stuff unless you know what you are talking about.. It just ruins this otherwise creative discussion.
On March 20 2012 07:15 Lyyna wrote: These posts make me think that a mech guide thread would basically be 95% of posts saying it's trash and the writer is bad
Thats exactly what will happen. I made one about 6 months ago, and thats what happened. Even Jinro came to the thread to say I'm bad.
On March 20 2012 07:15 Lyyna wrote: These posts make me think that a mech guide thread would basically be 95% of posts saying it's trash and the writer is bad
Only thing you need to do is back it up with replays against high ranked Protoss players, then all those guys that just spam every thread with their own opinion just for sake of the "contributing" will leave it alone..
edit: Just cut every corner.. Otherwise this random bronze guy will come here and say: "Hey, I didn't see a Toss doing this in your replays, this stat doesn't work, you are actually terrible".. Just back it up and it's ok.. A lot of good can come out of it, seriously..
On March 20 2012 06:53 BigBossX wrote: Ok my response is going to seem really negative and I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing but i think a lot of you missed the points I was trying to make
On March 20 2012 03:56 Norseman wrote: To your point, BigBossX, I think he, and most Protoss, A+move into things because that's just how Protoss works. It's rare you find a Protoss who has good micro. They're so use to their deathballs and attack move that they don't know what to do when tactical skill comes into play.
I don't think it's a matter of amove vs micro, more like picking your battles and using the correct unit composition. In the replay I was referring to the toss just grouped his whole army of zeals stalker colossi and ht and just amoved into terrans natural on tal darim, terran was fully sieged and sitting just above the choke, there was no way in hell he was going to break that position and would have even struggled if terran went bio. My entire point was that toss (with a poor unit composition vs mech) just amoved into him for absolutely no reason. This is just incredibly poor and low level play, toss could have moved to his third and forced him to reposition, dropped in his main and forced him to split some of his army, or even just sat outside siege range (and stayed there because terran wasn't threatening any expos, wasn't massing any t3 or doing anything at all, toss had 0 reason to attack but still did) and denied a 4th until terran had to push out and then attempt to catch him unsieged or partly sieged.
On March 20 2012 04:32 Seppuku wrote:
On March 20 2012 03:56 Norseman wrote: To your point, BigBossX, I think he, and most Protoss, A+move into things because that's just how Protoss works. It's rare you find a Protoss who has good micro. They're so use to their deathballs and attack move that they don't know what to do when tactical skill comes into play.
Right! And everything that is difficult about mech play, is what is difficult for Protoss to deal with as well. Dealing with drops, doing drops, expanding without difficulty.
Terran has sensor towers to see drops coming and respond with Vikings/Hellions/Marines. If the Protoss is cannoning his expos, he is wasting minerals. Siege him up! Dropping 2 tanks with 4 Hellions will allow you to assault the cannons, while fending off warped in Zealots. It's a costly drop, but that will force the Protoss to either waste warp ins, or respond heavily; resulting in great positioning.
This is just flat out wrong, I'm not even sure where to begin. How is building 3 cannons to save an entire probe line a waste of money? NOT building the cannons and losing all the probes would be the waste, especially when you enter late game and have 4-6 bases running.
On a lot of maps there just isn't the space to drop tanks out of cannon range and siege up, and all toss has to do is warp a round of zealots around/near the tanks and the drop is dealt with, or send a few of his beefy units over to deal, like immortals, colossi archons blink stalkers. I find the only way to effectively drop after toss has cannoned is to use a pdd or 2 to soak up the hits and just micro the hellions.
As for forcing him into giving you a good position ... what? Most hellion harass is done from a defensive position, as in terran is sieged at or near his freshest expo and sends his hellions around, if terran tries to distract with hellions and rush into a good position, toss just amoves and catches him unsieged/partly sieged. Gratz you killed 94 probes, but you have 0 army and he still has 100 supply of army left? GG
On March 20 2012 05:29 Faust852 wrote:
On March 20 2012 03:06 BigBossX wrote: Interesting read, I've used a fair bit of mech myself but I notice you don't mention anything about ghost/emp. I always found that when you get into the lategame and toss ads some extra robos for mass immortal, and then also adds a bunch of archons it can get real hairy without emp (when toss has like 6-8 immortals and 8-10 archons) with a bunch of zealots and storm, they can eat through your army pretty damn fast, faster than you can eat through theirs, at least in my experience. what are your thoughts?
FYI I didn't read through all the comments (too many idiots/trolls on tl) so sorry if this already been discussed, but it wasn't covered in your edit.
Edit: ok just watched your 6th replay on tal darim since you specified it went to late game. Seriously wtf? what league was this, I assume that toss was at least 2 leagues below you or has NEVER played vs mech ever, he repeatedly scouted mech and didn't react until he had already lost (200 vs 135 supply lol) by making immortals and archons, he amoved into your sieged natural into a choke FOR NO REASON AT ALL, his expo timing was aweful. The list could go on.
One thing that really really annoys me when people make a thread about mech is when they provide utter shit replays against either a complete noob or someone who doesn't know how to play vs mech. Please post a replay where the game goes above 30 minutes, toss abuses mechs immobility by expanding everywhere, by making the actual unit counters, by harassing with warp prism/blink stalkers, doesn't attack into a fully sieged position INTO a choke with the WRONG unit comp for NO REASON, makes cannons at all his expos to defend against hellions and all the other shit that makes mech hard to play
I think Lyyna plays some topMaster/GM, and these replays actually show how bad a protoss is, even in top league. They just abuse of their power against bio because of collosi and HT hardcounter it without heavy micro, but when they face this style, they are completely lost. And until topGM, I don't think they're good enough to deal with it.
It's like now Bio with Protoss, it's very hard to micro everything,
This is quite contradictory to the point I was making, my whole point was that he put up replay of bad protoss who didn't react to mech play until the game was lost. It's not that NO toss below GM can deal with mech, but the replay showed a toss who just refused to respond. I assure you even master level toss WHO ACTUALLY RESPOND to what they scout can make mech terran very hard to execute simply because toss have so many good units to counter mech and sim city/cannons negate one of mechs biggest damage dealers, the BFHs roasting probes. It's really easy to win a tvp when you have double the econ of the toss cus he didn't defend against hellions correctly. But you try that shit vs a solid toss with some basic ideas of how to deal with mech, it gets very very hard.
Also I don't see why people keep bringing micro into it, toss still doesn't need that much micro to beat mech terran, just good unit compositions and half decent positioning and an idea of when they should or should not attack (if hes sieged and isn't threatening you in anyway plz dont amove into the tanks) and where to attack (hes sieged at his natural? GO KILL HIS THIRD) makes amoving over mech army a doddle.
Hey, you acutely inteligent writer, what about actually watching all of these replays? You would realize there are many were Protoss actually does everything you said and still loses horribly. You could save yourself a lot o time and my nerves..
Im watching more and more of the replays and still seeing these same mistakes over and over, its getting pretty boring, how about you point out which replays demonstrate good toss play and toss still loses?
But yeah I am seeing the whole point of bad toss amoving and getting pwned by mech
Edit: my mistake
Edit: Ok so I watched the rest of the replays Everlong PLEASE tell me which game toss did anything even remotely close to what I mentioned, because I didn't find a single one. Hell most of the games are won by the hellion harass alone, there are like 2 games that go some what close to late game, but still the toss plays like utter shit. Don't get me wrong it's a cute build and I do believe mech to be viable but this guide and those replays are a loooooooong way off proving anything close to that.
Lynna dont worry about those people, just go ahead with the guide. There is ALWAYS people saying bad things about anything in ilfe, in this case, your guide. Don't worry about those people just ignore them ok?
You have replays to back you up too so it will be ok.
The biggest concern about Mech in TvP is that Protoss has such good answers for it throughout the game. In elementary versions of mech TvP, you kind of rely a bit much on the Protoss player making the wrong decisions (such as being unfamiliar with mech, so they make make the same units at the same time as they would against Bio, and that shouldn't work), and you rely a little too much on scouting "hidden" tech switches. It requires a lot of maintainence and against somebody that knows how to beat Mech, you'll have a pretty hard time unless you macro like a boss, transition exceptionally well, and know all of the right timings to use. Otherwise, you're kind of hoping they screw up.
Particularly, a 1gate FE into 2-base Zealot Archon (with or without Storm) will be fine against any Mech timings, unless you get a lot of work done with your Hellions and either thin his probe count or constantly weaken his army.
After that, a Protoss that knows how to fight Mech will see what is going on, take their 3rd a little earlier than usual, and go 3-base Carrier off 3-4 Stargates. Once they get 2 production cycles of Carriers out, and probably +2 air attack, they will push and you will need to have a lot of Vikings and other really nice supporting units to hold this off.
The other alternative is really fast Warp Prism multi-pronged attacks to constantly keep your army split up or out of position. You'd have to turtle pretty hard with PFs, set up sensor towers and be very active with Vikings to push this away. Again, a lot of maintainence against somebody that knows what they are doing.
I'm not trying to say anything like "lawl this won't work lolol", just saying playing Mech presents a million different problems than playing bio, and right now Protoss players simply aren't familiar enough with fighting Mech to know the right transitions and timings to get wins off a poorly ran mech build. I just hope mech (or, essentially non-Bio) gets matured to a point where it's actually a viable alternative in TvP. Protoss just has really good answers right now assuming they understand how to use them.
I should also mention that the presence of late-game BCs in this build would actually make it work really, really well. I didn't see any mention of it, but BCs kind of are the final boss of this build and would be hard as hell to answer from a Protoss standpoint.
I just want to know your opinion on the 2base timing tvp
I see two way to play MECH tvp:
2base timingpush, lyyna style macrothird
If the toss
2base immo: you can push but you need banshee+thors, dont make tank, You can 2basepush. (Virus v Huk)
2base chargelot: dont make tank, only thors+hellion. You can 2basepush.
2base chargelot+archon+templar: don't make tank, only thors+hellion+ghost. You can 2basepush.
2base VR: don't make tank, only thors+hellion+viking. You can 2basepush.
2base carrier: you can do a tank+hellion+viking push before, but when he got some carrier its better to macrothird and have some viking and fast transition to BC (lyyna build)
Protoss take a fast third: You can push with tank+hellion
2base blink stalker: you can push with tank+hellion
2base collo: you can push with tank+hellion+viking
Lyyna, have you played protosses that try to avoid engagements at all costs? Like constantly attacking or faking attacks at opposite sites of the map, using blink and cliffwalk or air compositions to kill some production buildings or bases and retreat before you can get there to defend. Or by recalling their army in and out of your base. Those are giving me the most trouble, in straight up fights you easily beat any unit composition though.
I do often see them. Basically you need to take the center of the map as soon as possible,to be able to deny that by rushing into his army if he try to attack on one side. Sensor towers + PF at key points also helps a lot, and going earlier for BC helps too (they're slow by at least they fly). You can also respond with banshee/hellion harass to force him to focus on his own bases. Also,adapt your bases to his style. if he's abusing cliff walk/blink, juste move your buildings away and build defenses there. 1 PF + 2 tanks + sensor tower make an attack on a cliff really painful for the protoss
How are you dealing with Immortals Lyyna? I just had a game where I had about 10 tanks, 10 hellions, and 20 marines and even though I was sieged I was overrun by Immortals, Stalkers, and Zealots. Should I have more Hellions than that?
How important are Hellions in a 2 base push. More important than marines?
On March 20 2012 22:05 Seppuku wrote: How are you dealing with Immortals Lyyna? I just had a game where I had about 10 tanks, 10 hellions, and 20 marines and even though I was sieged I was overrun by Immortals, Stalkers, and Zealots. Should I have more Hellions than that?
How important are Hellions in a 2 base push. More important than marines?
I would say this is too late for a 2base push, Protoss will have too many units if you wait for like 10 tanks..
In such a scenario you really need to turtle up to this 200 Hellion/Tank/Thor + Ghost + air support deathball behind Planetaries and basically never attack if you miss your timing window.. Once you get all upgrades (I mean all of them), collect enough energy on Ghosts and Ravens, there is literally nothing Protoss can do but lose..
Also, Banshees are very good at sniping Immortals, but they eat up gas for tank production, so it depends on what you see Protoss is making.
On March 20 2012 22:05 Seppuku wrote: How are you dealing with Immortals Lyyna? I just had a game where I had about 10 tanks, 10 hellions, and 20 marines and even though I was sieged I was overrun by Immortals, Stalkers, and Zealots. Should I have more Hellions than that?
How important are Hellions in a 2 base push. More important than marines?
versus a protoss who make immortal its better to make thors+banshee+marine, than tank. I don't see a window to beat the (immo-zealot)protoss with the tank. The best exemple is the virus v huk game.
On March 20 2012 10:08 SidewinderSC2 wrote: The biggest concern about Mech in TvP is that Protoss has such good answers for it throughout the game. In elementary versions of mech TvP, you kind of rely a bit much on the Protoss player making the wrong decisions (such as being unfamiliar with mech, so they make make the same units at the same time as they would against Bio, and that shouldn't work), and you rely a little too much on scouting "hidden" tech switches. It requires a lot of maintainence and against somebody that knows how to beat Mech, you'll have a pretty hard time unless you macro like a boss, transition exceptionally well, and know all of the right timings to use. Otherwise, you're kind of hoping they screw up.
Particularly, a 1gate FE into 2-base Zealot Archon (with or without Storm) will be fine against any Mech timings, unless you get a lot of work done with your Hellions and either thin his probe count or constantly weaken his army.
After that, a Protoss that knows how to fight Mech will see what is going on, take their 3rd a little earlier than usual, and go 3-base Carrier off 3-4 Stargates. Once they get 2 production cycles of Carriers out, and probably +2 air attack, they will push and you will need to have a lot of Vikings and other really nice supporting units to hold this off.
The other alternative is really fast Warp Prism multi-pronged attacks to constantly keep your army split up or out of position. You'd have to turtle pretty hard with PFs, set up sensor towers and be very active with Vikings to push this away. Again, a lot of maintainence against somebody that knows what they are doing.
I'm not trying to say anything like "lawl this won't work lolol", just saying playing Mech presents a million different problems than playing bio, and right now Protoss players simply aren't familiar enough with fighting Mech to know the right transitions and timings to get wins off a poorly ran mech build. I just hope mech (or, essentially non-Bio) gets matured to a point where it's actually a viable alternative in TvP. Protoss just has really good answers right now assuming they understand how to use them.
I should also mention that the presence of late-game BCs in this build would actually make it work really, really well. I didn't see any mention of it, but BCs kind of are the final boss of this build and would be hard as hell to answer from a Protoss standpoint.
On March 20 2012 11:51 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I just want to know your opinion on the 2base timing tvp
I see two way to play MECH tvp:
2base timingpush, lyyna style macrothird
If the toss
2base immo: you can push but you need banshee+thors, dont make tank, You can 2basepush. (Virus v Huk)
2base chargelot: dont make tank, only thors+hellion. You can 2basepush.
2base chargelot+archon+templar: don't make tank, only thors+hellion+ghost. You can 2basepush.
2base VR: don't make tank, only thors+hellion+viking. You can 2basepush.
2base carrier: you can do a tank+hellion+viking push before, but when he got some carrier its better to macrothird and have some viking and fast transition to BC (lyyna build)
Protoss take a fast third: You can push with tank+hellion
2base blink stalker: you can push with tank+hellion
2base collo: you can push with tank+hellion+viking
This is what bugs me about sc2 players lately. You seem to think of the game in terms of base count and unit composition, and you've listed this as if its the entirety of toss' possible builds. You have not outlined the timings for these recommended pushes, how you would scout that the toss has these compositions, or when you alter your composition and what support units you use.
To illustrate, Virus' push against Huk was not a reaction to huk going '2 base immo.' Its a two base allin build that is planned from the start of the game. Your post demonstrates a painful lack of understanding of this game.
On March 20 2012 07:15 Lyyna wrote: These posts make me think that a mech guide thread would basically be 95% of posts saying it's trash and the writer is bad
Thats exactly what will happen. I made one about 6 months ago, and thats what happened. Even Jinro came to the thread to say I'm bad.
Looked up your thread and Jinro's post. He did not call you 'bad.' He explained that your 1 rax expand into tech opener is extremely unsafe against void ray allins, citing that if its difficult to stop void rays with a 4 rax opener, it is impossible with just 1 rax of marines (I've tried it, it is). He said nothing of mech viability (considering he used mech in the gsl against MC I doubted he would), he just rightfully questioned your horribly unsafe opener. He even watched your replays ffs
Don't blame the community for being intolerant of mech if you tried to sell them on a 1 rax gasless expand into 1/1/1 opener.
What irritates me even more are people who randomly throw something like: "This doesn't work, because X can make Y units, which counters Z", etc.. Like, there are so many things that actually matter way more than unit compositions and the hard-counter style of play.
People in Platinum/Diamond will absolutely flood you with arguments why mech doesn't work and they keep playing bio because pros do so and they lose horribly and then they claim how imbalanced the game is..
Seriously, look at those replays, those are top master guys playing and they get absolutely obliterated it's not even funny. Maybe on the very top level bio is more viable, because those Korean Terrans know how abuse everything, but look how hard TvP is right now even on the very top level of play.
Still people will come here to say mech is immobile, you can't defend 3-4g Void ray, Immortals will destroy you, carriers are unbeateable, you can't take bases, etc.. I could make absolutely the same list of things why bio is not good - You can die in a second to good Force Fields, you can't engage once critical collosus count, you kite forever and can't macro properly during that time, you are forced to do damage with drops, otherwise you just lose at 15min mark, etc, etc.. Seems like Bio doesn't sound as good eh?
Then you see this guy Lyyna just sit there, macro up and fucking own everything - isn't this everything you wan't to do? Or do you really plan to go to Korea and make your living with this game..
On March 20 2012 07:15 Lyyna wrote: These posts make me think that a mech guide thread would basically be 95% of posts saying it's trash and the writer is bad
Thats exactly what will happen. I made one about 6 months ago, and thats what happened. Even Jinro came to the thread to say I'm bad.
Looked up your thread and Jinro's post. He did not call you 'bad.' He explained that your 1 rax expand into tech opener is extremely unsafe against void ray allins, citing that if its difficult to stop void rays with a 4 rax opener, it is impossible with just 1 rax of marines (I've tried it, it is). He said nothing of mech viability (considering he used mech in the gsl against MC I doubted he would), he just rightfully questioned your horribly unsafe opener. He even watched your replays ffs
Don't blame the community for being intolerant of mech if you tried to sell them on a 1 rax gasless expand into 1/1/1 opener.
This is why you should scout to see if hes doing something like void ray allin(2 early gases) and adjust accordingly. Problem solved.
On March 20 2012 07:15 Lyyna wrote: These posts make me think that a mech guide thread would basically be 95% of posts saying it's trash and the writer is bad
Thats exactly what will happen. I made one about 6 months ago, and thats what happened. Even Jinro came to the thread to say I'm bad.
Looked up your thread and Jinro's post. He did not call you 'bad.' He explained that your 1 rax expand into tech opener is extremely unsafe against void ray allins, citing that if its difficult to stop void rays with a 4 rax opener, it is impossible with just 1 rax of marines (I've tried it, it is). He said nothing of mech viability (considering he used mech in the gsl against MC I doubted he would), he just rightfully questioned your horribly unsafe opener. He even watched your replays ffs
Don't blame the community for being intolerant of mech if you tried to sell them on a 1 rax gasless expand into 1/1/1 opener.
This is why you should scout to see if hes doing something like void ray allin(2 early gases) and adjust accordingly. Problem solved.
Though I dont know if I would ever gasless expand while planning to go mech against toss.
On March 20 2012 07:15 Lyyna wrote: These posts make me think that a mech guide thread would basically be 95% of posts saying it's trash and the writer is bad
Thats exactly what will happen. I made one about 6 months ago, and thats what happened. Even Jinro came to the thread to say I'm bad.
Looked up your thread and Jinro's post. He did not call you 'bad.' He explained that your 1 rax expand into tech opener is extremely unsafe against void ray allins, citing that if its difficult to stop void rays with a 4 rax opener, it is impossible with just 1 rax of marines (I've tried it, it is). He said nothing of mech viability (considering he used mech in the gsl against MC I doubted he would), he just rightfully questioned your horribly unsafe opener. He even watched your replays ffs
Don't blame the community for being intolerant of mech if you tried to sell them on a 1 rax gasless expand into 1/1/1 opener.
This is why you should scout to see if hes doing something like void ray allin(2 early gases) and adjust accordingly. Problem solved.
Though I dont know if I would ever gasless expand while planning to go mech against toss.
It's just asking to get smashed, you need to be safe.. Protoss will get eco lead, but that's ok as long as you just don't die and take bases slowly with Sensor Towers. Of course you can go punish Toss the second you see some extremly greedy play (with hellion/Banshee) like super fast 3rd - you will hit this nice 2base timing which is really hard to defend. Other than that, your plan is to survive until the very late game where you just camp behind PFs and you starve Toss to death (as shown in Lyyna's replays). I don't think there is other way to play mech right now.. Funny thing in Hots we might see pros playing mech, finding proper builds/timings and Protoss can find themself unable to kill Terran like at all.. Then of course Blizz will step in to nerf mech again. :D
On March 20 2012 11:51 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I just want to know your opinion on the 2base timing tvp
I see two way to play MECH tvp:
2base timingpush, lyyna style macrothird
If the toss
2base immo: you can push but you need banshee+thors, dont make tank, You can 2basepush. (Virus v Huk)
2base chargelot: dont make tank, only thors+hellion. You can 2basepush.
2base chargelot+archon+templar: don't make tank, only thors+hellion+ghost. You can 2basepush.
2base VR: don't make tank, only thors+hellion+viking. You can 2basepush.
2base carrier: you can do a tank+hellion+viking push before, but when he got some carrier its better to macrothird and have some viking and fast transition to BC (lyyna build)
Protoss take a fast third: You can push with tank+hellion
2base blink stalker: you can push with tank+hellion
2base collo: you can push with tank+hellion+viking
This is what bugs me about sc2 players lately. You seem to think of the game in terms of base count and unit composition, and you've listed this as if its the entirety of toss' possible builds. You have not outlined the timings for these recommended pushes, how you would scout that the toss has these compositions, or when you alter your composition and what support units you use.
To illustrate, Virus' push against Huk was not a reaction to huk going '2 base immo.' Its a two base allin build that is planned from the start of the game. Your post demonstrates a painful lack of understanding of this game.
For exemple, You plan to do a tank push and you see the toss got 2base immo. I would not push and macro instead. You plan to do a thors-banshee push and you see the toss got 2base immo. I would push.
Listing possibility is having a great understanding of this game.
On March 20 2012 23:02 crocodile wrote: Don't blame the community for being intolerant of mech if you tried to sell them on a 1 rax gasless expand into 1/1/1 opener.
For the opening, I think you can do a FE no gaz and transition to 1-1-1.
If you see the protoss don't expo and you think he will allin you. You can change your plan and do a big bio force with mass rax. And later go back to the Lyyna build.
On March 20 2012 11:51 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I just want to know your opinion on the 2base timing tvp
I see two way to play MECH tvp:
2base timingpush, lyyna style macrothird
If the toss
2base immo: you can push but you need banshee+thors, dont make tank, You can 2basepush. (Virus v Huk)
2base chargelot: dont make tank, only thors+hellion. You can 2basepush.
2base chargelot+archon+templar: don't make tank, only thors+hellion+ghost. You can 2basepush.
2base VR: don't make tank, only thors+hellion+viking. You can 2basepush.
2base carrier: you can do a tank+hellion+viking push before, but when he got some carrier its better to macrothird and have some viking and fast transition to BC (lyyna build)
Protoss take a fast third: You can push with tank+hellion
2base blink stalker: you can push with tank+hellion
2base collo: you can push with tank+hellion+viking
This is what bugs me about sc2 players lately. You seem to think of the game in terms of base count and unit composition, and you've listed this as if its the entirety of toss' possible builds. You have not outlined the timings for these recommended pushes, how you would scout that the toss has these compositions, or when you alter your composition and what support units you use.
To illustrate, Virus' push against Huk was not a reaction to huk going '2 base immo.' Its a two base allin build that is planned from the start of the game. Your post demonstrates a painful lack of understanding of this game.
For exemple, You plan to do a tank push and you see the toss got 2base immo. I would not push and macro instead. You plan to do a thors-banshee push and you see the toss got 2base immo. I would push.
Listing possibility is having a great understanding of this game.
No, it is not. You demonstrate a gross lack of understanding of the depth and complexity of how you scout and react in this game. There is no build as simple as 'going 2 base immortal.' Even if there was, how do you know he's going 2 base Immortal? Is he allinning with 2 base Immortal or is he pressuring? Is he going to use the Immortals to take a 3rd, or is he going to follow up with double forge and delay his 3rd? Is he going to go for some further tech behind it? What scouting information have you given him? Why do you macro instead of pushing? Do you decide before the game to do a Thor/Banshee push or do you do it reactively? If so, what do you look for when scouting and how do you react to it and when?
These are all questions that should determine your decision making in a game that you have showed you do not even consider, and until you understand why these questions are important and can answer them, you should not be giving people advice in any thread.
On March 20 2012 23:02 crocodile wrote: Don't blame the community for being intolerant of mech if you tried to sell them on a 1 rax gasless expand into 1/1/1 opener.
For the opening, I think you can do a FE no gaz and transition to 1-1-1.
If you see the protoss don't expo and you think he will allin you. You can change your plan and do a big bio force with mass rax. And later go back to the Lyyna build.
You just aren't factoring in relevant ability to scout and react. You can't just 'change your plan' if you already have your 1/1/1 up after expo and you realize he hasn't expanded by the 6:30-7 minute mark (this will be the case, I have tried this build).
This is possible as Zerg, but as Terran (or even Protoss), your build has to be planned out from the start to be able to deal with allins given relevant/reasonable scouting. This is why all Mech builds incorporate an early Reactored Barracks, because I guarantee you you can have all the bunkers in the world but with 1 rax producing 1 Marine at a time, you will never hold off a Void Ray, Immortal, 4 Gate, or DT allin. If were as simple as 'just scout and change your plan' allins would never work in this game.
Here is why your reasoning does not work. There are plenty of builds that are NOT allin that would give you the same scouting information. A 3 gate Sentry expand, a 1 gate Robo, 3 gate pressure expand, 3 gate Robo, and a simple 1 gate FE with early double gas for Robo follow up all have double gas in the early game. Your logic is that if the Protoss' expo is delayed or you scout early double gas, you'll throw down a bunch of rax and miraculously stop the allin that you know is coming. Even if that could work (it won't), you'll have prevented yourself from playing mech (because you threw down a bunch of rax to survive the allin) and you'll have a horribly non-optimal build regardless if you play bio or mech afterwards, all because of your response to any one of those COMPLETELY STANDARD Protoss openers.
Also: wtf is 2 base VR? Who on earth has ever made Void Rays off of 2 base in a PvT? I've seen 1 base VR allins and late game VR transitions vs mech, but never a '2 Base VR.'
Hey, I'm playing Mech vP right now with an "accelerated" hellion expand, basically meaning gas first into factory before orbital:
10 supply depot 11 gas 12 barracks (skip one scv!) 16 factory 17 orbital + reactor on the barracks (SCVs out of the gas after 150) 17 supply depot switch facory and barracks and get out 2+1 hellions asap, because 3 hellions beat 1stalker (and can micro against 1-2 zealots easily) and produce up to 4marines (if you are up against 1base keep on producing them) and somewhere at 30 expand and then scvs back on the gas; bunker up accordingly and take the second gas after that I'm adding double factory with tech labs for tanks (if I'm up against SG 1fac 1SP).
Any thoughts on that? I feel quite comfortable with that opening, it gives me mapcontrol superfast, leads to some easy wins sometimes (through hellion harass against sentries or probes), but as I'm only offracing Terran it might not cover everything. On the proside, I don't feel like I have to do damage with it, as I'm not investing into some heavy tech of one base (like blueflame or banshees) with it and I'm skipping this awkward "get a bunch of bio first" phase, that costs quite a bunch of money, but doesn't really help my follow up plan (mech). - btw I'm using this build against Z as well;
On March 20 2012 07:00 yoigen wrote: Really the only way to make mech work in TvP is Thor/Hellion/Raven/banshee/viking with some ghosts in my opinion, any tank based play will be absolutely destroyed by any competent protoss player. Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore, and that should be a good proof. I don't see a problem with lategame toss, as long as you can secure gas income from 8 geysers you can mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of.
Here we go again, such a brilliant answer from our random diamond player that just throws it out there without thinking at all.. Have you ever watched a single pro game? How about those 2-3k gas floating late-game? Do you really think those guys would not go for your "mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of."? Don't get me even started on "Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore".. Seriously, we've had a lot of bad, bad, baaad posts here exactly like yours..
edit: I'm sorry for being a bit too aggresive, but my god, just don't post random stuff unless you know what you are talking about.. It just ruins this otherwise creative discussion.
This is why I usually never post on TL, yet the strategy forums. I played alot of mech in tvp and I eventually stopped doing it, as my opponents got better and played far more abusive. Of course you can sometimes throw out the eventual mechbuild, like JJajki did against Puzzle on daybreak once I think, and win with it. But I think those wins are rather because you either already win with some kind of hellion harass or because your opponent doesn't know how to deal with it and/or is surpised.
Have you actually seen some progames? EmpireHappy took out players such as Creator, who probably is one of the most influential pvt players in the world, and MaNa, who is also known for very good pvt with massghost/viking. + Show Spoiler +
I also like how you call a top100 gm player a diamond scrub.
@Seppuku : To deal with immo, well . . . if i'm going for macro style (while opening thor and banshee for defense), i'll get early ghosts (like around 12-14 min) while starting tanks too. If i go for a 2 base push (like my 1 rax 3 fact 1 port push) i'll have a shitload of marines,hellions and banshee, so immortals cant even touch my tanks.
@Everlong : i fucking love the " this guy Lyyna just sit there, macro up and fucking own everything" sentence.
I also see a lots of posts about opening,stuff like that. Well, there is a lots of mech openings, and i guess some people (including myself) gave a good advice and summary about most openings 1 or 2 pages ago. I would just add something : it's not because you plan to go mech that you HAVE to follow your opening and go mech whatever the toss throw at you. You can perfectly switch, change your build,etc. For example if i open with my 1 rax double gas expo and i scout some VR play on 1 Base,i'll just cancel my CC,throw 2 rax, and go 311 marine/tank/banshee because well . . . this is for me the only time where marines are good in TvP :D. Same apply to 111 expo (except that your opponent may be prepared for a 111 . . :/). I'm also having fun with some 311 using marine/hellion/banshee which is really fun
On March 21 2012 01:12 Lyyna wrote: Waow , lots of posts.
@Seppuku : To deal with immo, well . . . if i'm going for macro style (while opening thor and banshee for defense), i'll get early ghosts (like around 12-14 min) while starting tanks too. If i go for a 2 base push (like my 1 rax 3 fact 1 port push) i'll have a shitload of marines,hellions and banshee, so immortals cant even touch my tanks.
@Everlong : i fucking love the " this guy Lyyna just sit there, macro up and fucking own everything" sentence.
I also see a lots of posts about opening,stuff like that. Well, there is a lots of mech openings, and i guess some people (including myself) gave a good advice and summary about most openings 1 or 2 pages ago. I would just add something : it's not because you plan to go mech that you HAVE to follow your opening and go mech whatever the toss throw at you. You can perfectly switch, change your build,etc. For example if i open with my 1 rax double gas expo and i scout some VR play on 1 Base,i'll just cancel my CC,throw 2 rax, and go 311 marine/tank/banshee because well . . . this is for me the only time where marines are good in TvP :D. Same apply to 111 expo (except that your opponent may be prepared for a 111 . . :/). I'm also having fun with some 311 using marine/hellion/banshee which is really fun
By the time you scout a VR allin on one base, it's too late to change your build up that much in time IMO. Can you post a replay of you defending a VR allin with your build? I don't doubt your opener can work, but to have to cancel a CC and allin to defend a 1 base allin is a bit silly don't you think? If they scout you cancelled a CC they can just expand with a strong army and their econ will have paid off by the time you can attack. If they're not doing that they're not very good Protosses.
Like I said, I recommend a Reactor Barracks expand. You get plenty of marines out early and can still tech up almost as quickly as 1/1/1 on one base. I rarely lose to allins unless I make a mistake in micro or get lazy with scouting. I can post replays if you like, but I don't have a lot of replays of me following up with mech, usually in the past I've done a Marine/Marauder/Banshee/Raven timing attack with a BC follow up OR a Marine/Tank/Banshee timing OR the Marine/Thor/Banshee timing everyone is talking about. I never play Bio
My point is that the opener is safe and sound though (all these builds are Reactor expand directly into Cloak Banshee). My mech experience is limited so far because for some reason these days I rarely get Toss on ladder and if I do, they allin me T_T
Well, you have to assume the protoss is playing well (always hard of course) to say 'ok he's going for proxy VR' or stuff like that, but you can really scout it in time . And i personnally always do the CC in base so the protoss cant see i canceled it. And my response will basically be (in terms of army) a 111 push with delayed tanks/banshee but a lots of marines.
Yeah, reactor marine is a really good opening. Basically the best if you don't want to be overgreedy (like with my 1 rax double gas CC) and don't feel the need to be super safe (111 expo)
I'm not sure about your opening.. wouldn't a 4gate or 3gate stargate demolish your FE tech opening? Now of course if you can get the thors out, you are in very good shape... I am just wondering at what minutes mark are your thors out of the factories?
The thor get out around 9/9:30. So basically you need to scout the coming allin , retreat on 1 bases, get bunkers,and try to get the closest "high tech" unit possible. Usually tanks and banshees . . .
On March 20 2012 07:00 yoigen wrote: Really the only way to make mech work in TvP is Thor/Hellion/Raven/banshee/viking with some ghosts in my opinion, any tank based play will be absolutely destroyed by any competent protoss player. Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore, and that should be a good proof. I don't see a problem with lategame toss, as long as you can secure gas income from 8 geysers you can mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of.
Here we go again, such a brilliant answer from our random diamond player that just throws it out there without thinking at all.. Have you ever watched a single pro game? How about those 2-3k gas floating late-game? Do you really think those guys would not go for your "mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of."? Don't get me even started on "Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore".. Seriously, we've had a lot of bad, bad, baaad posts here exactly like yours..
edit: I'm sorry for being a bit too aggresive, but my god, just don't post random stuff unless you know what you are talking about.. It just ruins this otherwise creative discussion.
This is why I usually never post on TL, yet the strategy forums. I played alot of mech in tvp and I eventually stopped doing it, as my opponents got better and played far more abusive. Of course you can sometimes throw out the eventual mechbuild, like JJajki did against Puzzle on daybreak once I think, and win with it. But I think those wins are rather because you either already win with some kind of hellion harass or because your opponent doesn't know how to deal with it and/or is surpised.
Have you actually seen some progames? EmpireHappy took out players such as Creator, who probably is one of the most influential pvt players in the world, and MaNa, who is also known for very good pvt with massghost/viking. + Show Spoiler +
I also like how you call a top100 gm player a diamond scrub.
Ok, I'll take back this "random diamond player" (not a scrub), but how can you write something so obviously questionable as "as long as you can secure gas income from 8 geysers" while what actually happens every single time in TvP late game is that Terran is floating at least over 1k gas.. I've seen many pro players lately just lose no matter how good their composition was, just plain and simple. It's not like you can't deal with 200/200 from Protoss with say absolutely proper counter-based army composed of MMM + Ghost/Viking and proper possition.. It's the late-game (warp-in mechanic), what kills you, not the composition.. So Terran is actually forced to trade effectively, which is huge problem on it's own. Don't you dare to trade 50/50, because then you just lose to reinforcements (well, you could potentionaly fall behind 2-3 PF's if you happen to have them up somehow). I've been watching ForGG's stream lately and it's just insane how easily he loses TvP's..
On March 20 2012 07:00 yoigen wrote: Really the only way to make mech work in TvP is Thor/Hellion/Raven/banshee/viking with some ghosts in my opinion, any tank based play will be absolutely destroyed by any competent protoss player. Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore, and that should be a good proof. I don't see a problem with lategame toss, as long as you can secure gas income from 8 geysers you can mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of.
Here we go again, such a brilliant answer from our random diamond player that just throws it out there without thinking at all.. Have you ever watched a single pro game? How about those 2-3k gas floating late-game? Do you really think those guys would not go for your "mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of."? Don't get me even started on "Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore".. Seriously, we've had a lot of bad, bad, baaad posts here exactly like yours..
edit: I'm sorry for being a bit too aggresive, but my god, just don't post random stuff unless you know what you are talking about.. It just ruins this otherwise creative discussion.
This is why I usually never post on TL, yet the strategy forums. I played alot of mech in tvp and I eventually stopped doing it, as my opponents got better and played far more abusive. Of course you can sometimes throw out the eventual mechbuild, like JJajki did against Puzzle on daybreak once I think, and win with it. But I think those wins are rather because you either already win with some kind of hellion harass or because your opponent doesn't know how to deal with it and/or is surpised.
Have you actually seen some progames? EmpireHappy took out players such as Creator, who probably is one of the most influential pvt players in the world, and MaNa, who is also known for very good pvt with massghost/viking. + Show Spoiler +
I also like how you call a top100 gm player a diamond scrub.
you know ,people will not listen to us lol .i try as hard as i can + Show Spoiler +
on kr server (mid - high master)
and fail so hard lol.They know how to play with mech,they don't let you comfortable to take the third/fourth easily or let you sit down and macro like a mad man without doing anything.
On March 20 2012 07:00 yoigen wrote: Really the only way to make mech work in TvP is Thor/Hellion/Raven/banshee/viking with some ghosts in my opinion, any tank based play will be absolutely destroyed by any competent protoss player. Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore, and that should be a good proof. I don't see a problem with lategame toss, as long as you can secure gas income from 8 geysers you can mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of.
Here we go again, such a brilliant answer from our random diamond player that just throws it out there without thinking at all.. Have you ever watched a single pro game? How about those 2-3k gas floating late-game? Do you really think those guys would not go for your "mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of."? Don't get me even started on "Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore".. Seriously, we've had a lot of bad, bad, baaad posts here exactly like yours..
edit: I'm sorry for being a bit too aggresive, but my god, just don't post random stuff unless you know what you are talking about.. It just ruins this otherwise creative discussion.
This is why I usually never post on TL, yet the strategy forums. I played alot of mech in tvp and I eventually stopped doing it, as my opponents got better and played far more abusive. Of course you can sometimes throw out the eventual mechbuild, like JJajki did against Puzzle on daybreak once I think, and win with it. But I think those wins are rather because you either already win with some kind of hellion harass or because your opponent doesn't know how to deal with it and/or is surpised.
Have you actually seen some progames? EmpireHappy took out players such as Creator, who probably is one of the most influential pvt players in the world, and MaNa, who is also known for very good pvt with massghost/viking. + Show Spoiler +
I also like how you call a top100 gm player a diamond scrub.
you know ,people will not listen to us lol .i try as hard as i can + Show Spoiler +
on kr server (mid - high master)
and fail so hard lol.They know how to play with mech,they don't let you comfortable to take the third/fourth easily or let you sit down and macro like a mad man without doing anything.
But the key thing here is that now you are in a possition, where the Protoss needs to do "something" or they are likely to lose or at least have a hard time fighting your army. Isn't that cool actualy to be in a situation similar to where Zerg was like year back desperately trying to defend 15 Hatch facing all kind of abusive strats? And guess what, they finally managed to get away with it - now you play against clock. Why don't try the same thing with Terran? I think this is interesting enough so we can leave this "I'm master/gm, so listen to me kid" thing.. Also, in Hots it's very likely that mech play will be explored completly so I don't think it's a waste of time trying new stuff..
On March 21 2012 01:36 Lyyna wrote: Well, you have to assume the protoss is playing well (always hard of course) to say 'ok he's going for proxy VR' or stuff like that, but you can really scout it in time . And i personnally always do the CC in base so the protoss cant see i canceled it. And my response will basically be (in terms of army) a 111 push with delayed tanks/banshee but a lots of marines.
Yeah, reactor marine is a really good opening. Basically the best if you don't want to be overgreedy (like with my 1 rax double gas CC) and don't feel the need to be super safe (111 expo)
@Crocodile : cant find any of it. Didn't laddered for past few days and i usually delete loosing rep to reduce my replay's folder size, so . . . I'll start mass laddering again,and save every replays then.
@ ZjiublingZ : Yeah, i'll save loosing rep too now
On March 21 2012 06:28 Lyyna wrote: @Crocodile : cant find any of it. Didn't laddered for past few days and i usually delete loosing rep to reduce my replay's folder size, so . . . I'll start mass laddering again,and save every replays then.
@ ZjiublingZ : Yeah, i'll save loosing rep too now
Don't worry, there are plenty of Tosses on ladder who love their Void Ray allins, I'm sure you'll get a chance soon enough.
On March 21 2012 07:13 crocodile wrote: You demonstrate a gross lack of understanding of the depth and complexity of how you scout and react in this game. You just aren't factoring in relevant ability to scout and react. You can't just 'change your plan' if you already have your 1/1/1 up after expo and you realize he hasn't expanded by the 6:30-7 minute mark (this will be the case, I have tried this build).
Don't worry, there are plenty of Tosses on ladder who love their Void Ray allins, I'm sure you'll get a chance soon enough.
You can do a no gaz rax FE v VRallin and Its from progamer level. Are you happy crocodile ? Stop insulting people!
On March 21 2012 11:25 Lyyna wrote: Interesting VOD Gyro. Nice find!
A friend is actually correcting my guide by the way. The first version will probably be up tomorrow
NICEEEEE
Because of this VOD I start thinking maybe its very viable to FE with mech. Just make a second bunker in your base for precaution and scout for allin(protoss expo timing).
Lyyna, I start using your strat, and I some problem when I try to transition to BC. Can you focus on that part ?
On March 21 2012 07:13 crocodile wrote: You demonstrate a gross lack of understanding of the depth and complexity of how you scout and react in this game. You just aren't factoring in relevant ability to scout and react. You can't just 'change your plan' if you already have your 1/1/1 up after expo and you realize he hasn't expanded by the 6:30-7 minute mark (this will be the case, I have tried this build).
Don't worry, there are plenty of Tosses on ladder who love their Void Ray allins, I'm sure you'll get a chance soon enough.
You can do a no gaz rax FE v VRallin and Its from progamer level. Are you happy crocodile ? Stop insulting people!
I'm not just outright insulting you. I stated, giving reasonable support for my argument, that you clearly don't understand this game very well based on the advice you gave earlier in this thread. Whether or not you can find a pro replay of someone defending a VR allin with a 1 Rax gasless FE into 1/1/1 build does not take away from the complete lack of knowledge you displayed in your posts.
Do you want to know why Jinro held there? He incorporated a Reactor after 4 Marines (relatively early) and quick Siege Tanks and Siege Mode, while Socke's build was not optimized (it looked like he was going for a normal opener until he proxied the Void Ray and added gates 2 and 3) which allowed Jinro to get more Marines and tech out in time, and Jinro blindly threw up 2 Bunkers early, and it was a terrible map for a Void Ray allin, and Socke got supply blocked, and didn't use the pylon he built outside Jinro's main base to warp Zealots in to hit the mineral line and pull units from the front by the bunker, and he floated over 1000 resources.
During a 1 base allin, floating 1000 resources is absolutely utterly ridiculous. This was one of the worst executed Void Ray rushes I've ever seen, against an overly cautious Jinro, on a bad map, and it BARELY failed (it still took down the first bunker, meaning the only reason Jinro survived was because of the blind 2nd bunker). Socke made the ultimate mistake in Starcraft 2 which is focusing too much on micro when he should have been macroing (warping in Zealots or Stalkers). I don't even play Protoss, and I guarantee you I can beat you with a 3 gate VR allin if you go for the exact same build Jinro did on any ladder map.
On March 21 2012 11:44 crocodile wrote: the only reason Jinro survived was because of the blind 2nd bunker).
Maybe with this you need a second bunker incase and after you sell it. Dont say Jinro blind 2nd bunker, Im sure its in his preparation.
If the Protoss does not pressure you and you've made 2 bunkers blind, you are horribly behind even if you do sell them. If you don't understand why, I'm not sure how I can have any discussion with you because we're at completely different levels of game understanding.
On March 21 2012 11:44 crocodile wrote: the only reason Jinro survived was because of the blind 2nd bunker).
Maybe with this you need a second bunker incase and after you sell it. Dont say Jinro blind 2nd bunker, Im sure its in his preparation.
If the Protoss does not pressure you and you've made 2 bunkers blind, you are horribly behind even if you do sell them. If you don't understand why, I'm not sure how I can have any discussion with you because we're at completely different levels of game understanding.
You just did a FE no gaz how can you be behind ?
Also, if the toss do a FE either you'll see it if you scout, and you don't need that extra bunker.
On March 21 2012 11:53 crocodile wrote: I'm not sure how I can have any discussion with you because we're at completely different levels of game understanding.
On March 21 2012 11:44 crocodile wrote: the only reason Jinro survived was because of the blind 2nd bunker).
Maybe with this you need a second bunker incase and after you sell it. Dont say Jinro blind 2nd bunker, Im sure its in his preparation.
If the Protoss does not pressure you and you've made 2 bunkers blind, you are horribly behind even if you do sell them. If you don't understand why, I'm not sure how I can have any discussion with you because we're at completely different levels of game understanding.
You just did a FE no gaz how can you be behind ?
Also, if the toss do a FE either you'll see it if you scout, and you don't need that extra bunker.
On March 21 2012 11:53 crocodile wrote: I'm not sure how I can have any discussion with you because we're at completely different levels of game understanding.
completely different levels ! really lol.
Go ahead and try it in your rank 1 gold league, then, I'm sure it'll work just fine there. I should have known better than to try to make you understand.
On March 21 2012 11:44 crocodile wrote: the only reason Jinro survived was because of the blind 2nd bunker).
Maybe with this you need a second bunker incase and after you sell it. Dont say Jinro blind 2nd bunker, Im sure its in his preparation.
I remember the interview after jinro won those games. The 2nd bunker is not blind it IS part of his preparation he explains that if he scouts 2nd gas then he builds that bunker in his main and leaves 1 marine in the lower bunker as a decoy. Just clearing that up.
On March 21 2012 11:44 crocodile wrote: the only reason Jinro survived was because of the blind 2nd bunker).
Maybe with this you need a second bunker incase and after you sell it. Dont say Jinro blind 2nd bunker, Im sure its in his preparation.
I remember the interview after jinro won those games. The 2nd bunker is not blind it IS part of his preparation he explains that if he scouts 2nd gas then he builds that bunker in his main and leaves 1 marine in the lower bunker as a decoy. Just clearing that up.
Just re-stating that he still would've lost to the Void Rays if Socke had executed half decently. He also would have auto-lost to an Immortal allin which also has an early 2nd gas. No way 1 Bunker and 1 marine production will hold 1-2 Immortals.
On March 21 2012 11:44 crocodile wrote: the only reason Jinro survived was because of the blind 2nd bunker).
Maybe with this you need a second bunker incase and after you sell it. Dont say Jinro blind 2nd bunker, Im sure its in his preparation.
I remember the interview after jinro won those games. The 2nd bunker is not blind it IS part of his preparation he explains that if he scouts 2nd gas then he builds that bunker in his main and leaves 1 marine in the lower bunker as a decoy. Just clearing that up.
Just re-stating that he still would've lost to the Void Rays if Socke had executed half decently. He also would have auto-lost to an Immortal allin which also has an early 2nd gas. No way 1 Bunker and 1 marine production will hold 1-2 Immortals.
He had a siege tank with siege mode, a viking, a bunker with scvs ready to mass repair AND he woulda saw any zealots warping into his base. Jinro was in a good position to hold that off even IF socke executed that all in well. Having a viking to zone out the void rays and a siege tank with siege mode behind a bunker with mass repair scvs sounds pretty safe to a void ray all in to me.
On March 21 2012 11:44 crocodile wrote: the only reason Jinro survived was because of the blind 2nd bunker).
Maybe with this you need a second bunker incase and after you sell it. Dont say Jinro blind 2nd bunker, Im sure its in his preparation.
I remember the interview after jinro won those games. The 2nd bunker is not blind it IS part of his preparation he explains that if he scouts 2nd gas then he builds that bunker in his main and leaves 1 marine in the lower bunker as a decoy. Just clearing that up.
Just re-stating that he still would've lost to the Void Rays if Socke had executed half decently. He also would have auto-lost to an Immortal allin which also has an early 2nd gas. No way 1 Bunker and 1 marine production will hold 1-2 Immortals.
He had a siege tank with siege mode, a viking, a bunker with scvs ready to mass repair AND he woulda saw any zealots warping into his base. Jinro was in a good position to hold that off even IF socke executed that all in well. Having a viking to zone out the void rays and a siege tank with siege mode behind a bunker with mass repair scvs sounds pretty safe to a void ray all in to me.
The Tank with siege mode finished AFTER Socke should have been in his base killing his stuff. And like I said, he didn't warp in at the pylon that he built outside Jinro's main, which is the dumbest decision I've ever seen a pro gamer make. The viking didn't come out until WAY after Socke had already lost the game. AND the Void Ray allin was late, as I mentioned before.
This stuff is obvious, right? I'm not crazy am I? I feel like I'm on the bnet forums again.
how to hold immortel? you make banshee instead of the viking and you mass repair the front and the banshee! Maybe dont build tank, give the techlab to the starport and make only rine+banshee+hellion.
if its a big allin 1base 10min push immotal, you should do 2port banshee.
If you have like 10 banshee at 10min, you can beat that allin. I dont think you can stop it with tank or thors or any mech?
Also banshees are very good for killing immortal, because one missile does 12dommage and the shield block at 10! So the banshees do almost full dommage again immortal.
On March 21 2012 12:10 crocodile wrote: No way 1 Bunker and 1 marine production will hold 1-2 Immortals.
ok I test the build with a friend.
If I do a FE no gaz and I do a 1-1-1 and I see he dont expo (around 6min) I can keep my second OC in my base and build a second bunker like jinro. I scout for see if he got immortal or VR. If immortal, I do mass starport banshee+raven+viking+massrax marine(because I have a lot of minerals). I feel its always good to make the viking first incase of VR, after I do banshee and one raven.
I tried some different build where I only make banshee but it was too weak to the stalkers.
But if I add one raven and one viking and can do the combo, pdd and I snipe the observer. When the toss lose his observer, he has to wait until a new observer for a new attack, and the allin timing is finish. If he comes with more than an observer during his first push, he will have less immortel.
So in conclusion you can do a no gaz FE into 1-1-1
On March 21 2012 12:10 crocodile wrote: No way 1 Bunker and 1 marine production will hold 1-2 Immortals.
ok I test the build with a friend.
If I do a FE no gaz and I do a 1-1-1 and I see he dont expo (around 6min) I can keep my second OC in my base and build a second bunker like jinro. I scout for see if he got immortal or VR. If immortal, I do mass starport banshee+raven+viking+massrax marine(because I have a lot of minerals). I feel its always good to make the viking first incase of VR, after I do banshee and one raven.
I tried some different build where I only make banshee but it was too weak to the stalkers.
But if I add one raven and one viking and can do the combo, pdd and I snipe the observer. When the toss lose his observer, he has to wait until a new observer for a new attack, and the allin timing is finish. If he comes with more than an observer during his first push, he will have less immortel.
So in conclusion you can do a no gaz FE into 1-1-1
On March 21 2012 12:10 crocodile wrote: No way 1 Bunker and 1 marine production will hold 1-2 Immortals.
ok I test the build with a friend.
If I do a FE no gaz and I do a 1-1-1 and I see he dont expo (around 6min) I can keep my second OC in my base and build a second bunker like jinro. I scout for see if he got immortal or VR. If immortal, I do mass starport banshee+raven+viking+massrax marine(because I have a lot of minerals). I feel its always good to make the viking first incase of VR, after I do banshee and one raven.
I tried some different build where I only make banshee but it was too weak to the stalkers.
But if I add one raven and one viking and can do the combo, pdd and I snipe the observer. When the toss lose his observer, he has to wait until a new observer for a new attack, and the allin timing is finish. If he comes with more than an observer during his first push, he will have less immortel.
So in conclusion you can do a no gaz FE into 1-1-1
No really, I'm pretty sure sniping an observer with Raven/Viking/Banshee is not going to save you from Immortal bust.. If it works for you then your Protoss partner is terrible, terrible Protoss player.
You won't have even your Viking in time and you are talking about Ravens, let's keep this real..
edit: If you really insist on your conclusions, post replay where we could see how this works, otherwise, it's just plain words with no real meaning.
As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote: As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo
First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted.
Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well.
I had some trouble playing Mech when my opponent went mass air. He had about 15 Carriers and 10 void rays. I had scouted air and made mass Thor and mass Viking. I can post replay later, but I got crushed late game. Since I'm really not familiar with playing against Carriers; what is the best way to take them down? I was EMPing them with ghosts and letting the Vikings and Thor shoot them, but I'm thinking I should have been target firing; is this correct?
Basically, is target firing as important as I think it is when facing carriers?
Basically,the best way to counter mass air is -Good amount of ghosts with cloak (8-10) -Mass BC (yamato is good,and they tank a huge amount of damage -Mass Raven. Seriously, try HSM versus carriers . This is as effective as vs Broodlords ! -Few vikings and thors. Both get demolished by carriers and VR,so vikings are just here to add some dps, and thors to add some AOE/Tanking.
On March 21 2012 22:31 Seppuku wrote: I had some trouble playing Mech when my opponent went mass air. He had about 15 Carriers and 10 void rays. I had scouted air and made mass Thor and mass Viking. I can post replay later, but I got crushed late game. Since I'm really not familiar with playing against Carriers; what is the best way to take them down? I was EMPing them with ghosts and letting the Vikings and Thor shoot them, but I'm thinking I should have been target firing; is this correct?
Basically, is target firing as important as I think it is when facing carriers?
BCs with Yamato absolutely own Carriers.. Only thing you need to worry about is HT's and Vortex. So as long as you hit few good EMPs you can't lose.. Vikings as a suppor units are "OK", but what you really need are BCs. Thors are just terrible against Protoss air since they never ever make Phoenixes, but it's good to have few to tank damage and in case he switches to ground again.
To make sure you are ready for this tech switch you either go "preventive" BCs after you secured your 3rd/4th or you need to scan pretty often to locations where Stargates are likely to be build (like free space in his base). If you are surprised by his air switch, only option other than losing is to spam turrets everywhere to buy time.
On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote: As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo
First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted.
Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well.
first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread.
second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not
On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote: As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo
First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted.
Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well.
first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread.
second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not
Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that.
Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off.
On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote: As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo
First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted.
Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well.
first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread.
second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not
Not really, this thread is indeed named "How to mech TvP".. The fact someone is spending time providing content is not an assurance it's wanted. We've had so many posts like this where guy basically writes why mech doesn't work and he talks from his own experience. Ok, we know it's not played on the top level, we know it's not concidered "viable" at the moment and we all know mech can get utterly destroyed, which is something those guys experience when on ladder facing someone who just throws in mech build once in a while. But here we discuss how to cover all weak points and how to get to the stage where you can finally fight Protoss army heads on and you are cost effective and oh boy does is feel good..
edit: This thread is full of evidence, so many times those 2base timings were mentioned and there are ton of replays actually, so don't jump on the bandwagon and just blindly make statements to argue something.
On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote: As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo
First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted.
Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well.
first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread.
second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not
Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that.
Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off.
He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck.
<3 :D
Edit: Forgot to add that any push by mech before the 12:00 mark will get utterly crushed cause it will be tiny and ineffective. Gateway units will shit on it.
lol, why are you guys so butthurt? I hate to agree to a protoss player, but he's completely right: Mech only works because people on ladder are too dumb to realise how to play against it. You can blabber all day about how this threat is meant to discuss "how to mech" and not about "viablity", but that doesn't change the fact that it is a gimmick. How about I open a thread about BC rushing and tell everyone to "fuck off" who sais it isn't viable. Mech can only work on like 2 maps and even on those it's dependend on the protoss to be bad.
On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote: As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo
First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted.
Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well.
first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread.
second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not
Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that.
Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off.
He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck.
<3 :D
Haha, you are funny.. Look how this thread is named - it's "How to mech TvP [D][G]".. Nobody is asking if it's viable, or not. We've been through this like first 5 pages or so where people just spammed blindly that something is not viable. Like really, look at those replays, read this thread from beginning and if you don't realize that your "Mech is not viable unitl pros do it" is not wanted at all I don't know what..
Actual Thread title: "[D]How to Mech in TvP" What you seem to think the thread title is: "[D] Tvp Mech Viability"
Some of us were trying to discuss things relevant to the thread topic, such as improving our mech play. You appear to want to discuss viability, which has nothing to do with the thread. If I weren't on my phone I'd go find dozens of other posts in this thread where people explain this to others like yourself.
On March 21 2012 23:04 OmegaKnetus wrote: lol, why are you guys so butthurt? I hate to agree to a protoss player, but he's completely right: Mech only works because people on ladder are too dumb to realise how to play against it. You can blabber all day about how this threat is meant to discuss "how to mech" and not about "viablity", but that doesn't change the fact that it is a gimmick. How about I open a thread about BC rushing and tell everyone to "fuck off" who sais it isn't viable. Mech can only work on like 2 maps and even on those it's dependend on the protoss to be bad.
On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote: As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo
First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted.
Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well.
first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread.
second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not
Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that.
Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off.
every other guide includes discussion about what your opponent can do against you and the weaknesses of the build. do you want to learn or just whine about how people think you're wrong?
So I was thinking about a build that goes 14 cc 14/14 rad to open to get the Econ rolling well for mech. 14/14 rax will hold most early pushes with bunkers and these 2 rax can be used for add on building and ghost production later. After 1414 rax get the gas and start factory with tank production, hellions aren't useful early game and marine tank will fare better eventually get into a hellion tank banshee type of composition with ghosts and vikings as needed. Hellion tank suck against immortals. Banshee come some what close and do well against stalkers. As far as archons go emp and Thor 250 seem like viable solutions. Though preventing a feedback will be difficult, Thor also serve as an observer sniper since ravens would be nice to have too.
On March 21 2012 23:04 OmegaKnetus wrote: lol, why are you guys so butthurt? I hate to agree to a protoss player, but he's completely right: Mech only works because people on ladder are too dumb to realise how to play against it. You can blabber all day about how this threat is meant to discuss "how to mech" and not about "viablity", but that doesn't change the fact that it is a gimmick. How about I open a thread about BC rushing and tell everyone to "fuck off" who sais it isn't viable. Mech can only work on like 2 maps and even on those it's dependend on the protoss to be bad.
Move on kiddies
Go away troll.
Well we could do one thing..
"Ok, thanks for your input, but we are trying to discuss here how mech can be improved, not how it is not viable.." instead of "Fuck you, go away.."
We could probably save this thread from endless flaming this way..
I think current mech players are too focused on the hellion tank part where I believe it might be more important to have a health mix of mech/air. To me a TvP mech army would look like it has a bit of almost everything, hellion tank Thor Viking banshee raven ghosts, you name it.
On March 21 2012 23:23 Blasterion wrote: I think current mech players are too focused on the hellion tank part where I believe it might be more important to have a health mix of mech/air. To me a TvP mech army would look like it has a bit of almost everything, hellion tank Thor Viking banshee raven ghosts, you name it.
You might be correct. From what I can see, if you have this insane army of Hellion/Tank/Thor + Ghost/BC/Raven/Viking, Protoss just can't win.. Only way to get there is play this mega turtle style as shown in Lyyna's replays.. He own master Protoss players and if you don't mind playing long games and for once be in a situation where your opponent needs to do something, why not..
On March 21 2012 23:23 Blasterion wrote: I think current mech players are too focused on the hellion tank part where I believe it might be more important to have a health mix of mech/air. To me a TvP mech army would look like it has a bit of almost everything, hellion tank Thor Viking banshee raven ghosts, you name it.
You might be correct. From what I can see, if you have this insane army of Hellion/Tank/Thor + Ghost/BC/Raven/Viking, Protoss just can't win.. Only way to get there is play this mega turtle style as shown in Lyyna's replays.. He own master Protoss players and if you don't mind playing long games and for once be in a situation where your opponent needs to do something, why not..
This is more of a TvZ concept but if you can why not toss a few planetaries in some key locations Protoss gate units are pretty inept at killing defensive structures. And while we are mechng engineering bay is doing nothing perhaps building armor and turret range will make them fierce threat to the Protoss to engage.
Some people are just so unbelievable. I don't understand the "not viable, stop talking about it" mindset. How does a build become "viable"? Do they just pop up out of no where? Builds and strategies require work and practice to develop. Stop telling us to not spend time experimenting with a different strategy. I'm convinced every one of these trolls are Protoss who would rather continue AOE'ing my Bio ball to death in 2 seconds and then steamrolling my base.
If there are masters Terran using this with success then why the hell would it not be something to look into? I have seen a Mechanical deathball CRUSH a maxed Protoss army. Oh, so the build won't work against MC? Good to know, I'll have to avoid using it when I play him on my DIAMOND LADDER.
Constructive criticism is ALWAYS welcome, as is discussion about counters; but for fucks sake don't just say it isn't worth experimenting with. Bio has so many counters as well at this point. I am just struggling to fathom how any Terran player can look at a tank/thor/battlecruiser death ball and say "that's not viable."
On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote: As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo
First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted.
Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well.
first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread.
second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not
Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that.
Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off.
He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck.
<3 :D
Edit: Forgot to add that any push by mech before the 12:00 mark will get utterly crushed cause it will be tiny and ineffective. Gateway units will shit on it.
Is that why the only actual mech pushes seen in the GSL* are all 9:30-12 min 4fac tank hellion (marine residue) pushes (designed against 2base toss play none the less; as in no 6 min third).?
Most of these pushes usually throw the latter 2-3 factories down at around 7:30-8:00 and then go when the reactors are done.
If terran is good at anything it's all-inning at around that time.
On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote: As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo
First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted.
Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well.
first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread.
second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not
Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that.
Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off.
He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck.
<3 :D
Edit: Forgot to add that any push by mech before the 12:00 mark will get utterly crushed cause it will be tiny and ineffective. Gateway units will shit on it.
Is that why the only actual mech pushes seen in the GSL are all 9:30-12 min 4fac tank hellion (marine residue) pushes (designed against 2base toss play none the less; as in no 6 min third).?
If terran is good at anything it's all-inning at around that time.
IMO, the only way to be safe against blink all ins with a decent expansion timing and a starport (for hidden voids) is good maps. When half the main is exposed to blink i feel it is impossible to do solid mech openings.
At this point i have 2 builds. 1-1-1 that is decent against everything but dies to blink and fast 2 fact that is decent against everything but dies to voids. It's a gamble
On March 21 2012 23:47 Sapphire.lux wrote: IMO, the only way to be safe against blink all ins with a decent expansion timing and a starport (for hidden voids) is good maps. When half the main is exposed to blink i feel it is impossible to do solid mech openings.
At this point i have 2 builds. 1-1-1 that is decent against everything but dies to blink and fast 2 fact that is decent against everything but dies to voids. It's a gamble
Be very active with your Hellions. They outrun everything Protoss has early, and if you spot the proxy, which should be easy, then it's gg!
On March 21 2012 23:47 Sapphire.lux wrote: IMO, the only way to be safe against blink all ins with a decent expansion timing and a starport (for hidden voids) is good maps. When half the main is exposed to blink i feel it is impossible to do solid mech openings.
At this point i have 2 builds. 1-1-1 that is decent against everything but dies to blink and fast 2 fact that is decent against everything but dies to voids. It's a gamble
Be very active with your Hellions. They outrun everything Protoss has early, and if you spot the proxy, which should be easy, then it's gg!
They out run anything that doesn't fly haha they are great cannons kinda do them in though. I really feel even though you are going for mech you really should go for marine tank before going into hellions. They are just not very useful early game.
On March 21 2012 23:46 Blasterion wrote: So yeah back to the topic I think late game planetaries are great ways to hinder mass post battle warp ins.
Yes, and also Barracks are a cheap way to manipulate battlefields. With Mech you have tons of extra minerals, and building/floating Barracks on the battlefield to create artificial chokes and block flanking attempts will surprise you with how powerful it can be!
I've watched Yoshi Kirishima's games on his stream quite a bit, and on Shakuras Plateau, after taking his 3rd base, he often builds two Planetaries and a ton of ebays/barracks to wall off and turtle up in the middle and controlling the watchtowers, and then uses sensor towers on the outsides of the map so he can see any kind of harassment attempt coming, then he just takes all his bases. Since Mech is usually only limited by gas income and not minerals, this is actually surprisingly affordable. I haven't gotten the chance to try it yet though because every Protoss I've played on ladder since I decided to try Mech has allinned me, or it hasn't been on this map.
Also, I think despite Lynna's advice to stay with Banshees despite Colossi, I think it might be a good idea to make a Reactor whenever you choose to get your 2nd Starport. I say this because Vikings are useful for stopping Warp Prisms, you can make a single Medivac for dropping Hellions to harass sniping Observers, and can help a ton when A. You decide to switch to full Sky Terran (Raven/BC/Viking/Banshee) B. Protoss tries to make their own mass Air switch to Carriers and/or Void Rays
Anyway my current mindset/gameplan with Mech in TvP has been to constantly remind myself of two things: turtle and harass. I only push when I'm trying to get rid of my early game Marines, which is always at the time I scout the Protoss taking his 3rd (while I take my own 3rd behind it). Other than that I just use Banshees, Hellion drops, and Hellion runbys to kill as many Probes as possible while I secure an economic and army advantage as I max out with tons of orbitals, a low SCV count, and a gigantic, well upgraded and diverse Mech army. Also I survive behind strategic building of sensor towers, barracks/planetaries, and turrets. To those more experienced with mech, does that sound like a solid game plan?
Also I'm trying to work on incorporating more Ghosts into my play, but I don't usually feel the need for Ghosts unless I scout huge Immortal/Archon numbers. However if I'm able to get BCs out, I often don't feel like the Ghosts are necessary to deal with Archons and Immortals unless the Protoss is specifically massing them.
On March 21 2012 23:46 Blasterion wrote: So yeah back to the topic I think late game planetaries are great ways to hinder mass post battle warp ins.
Yes, and also Barracks are a cheap way to manipulate battlefields. With Mech you have tons of extra minerals, and building/floating Barracks on the battlefield to create artificial chokes and block flanking attempts will surprise you with how powerful it can be!
I've watched Yoshi Kirishima's games on his stream quite a bit, and on Shakuras Plateau, after taking his 3rd base, he often builds two Planetaries and a ton of ebays/barracks to wall off and turtle up in the middle and controlling the watchtowers, and then uses sensor towers on the outsides of the map so he can see any kind of harassment attempt coming, then he just takes all his bases. Since Mech is usually only limited by gas income and not minerals, this is actually surprisingly affordable. I haven't gotten the chance to try it yet though because every Protoss I've played on ladder since I decided to try Mech has allinned me, or it hasn't been on this map.
Also, I think despite Lynna's advice to stay with Banshees despite Colossi, I think it might be a good idea to make a Reactor whenever you choose to get your 2nd Starport. I say this because Vikings are useful for stopping Warp Prisms, you can make a single Medivac for dropping Hellions to harass sniping Observers, and can help a ton when A. You decide to switch to full Sky Terran (Raven/BC/Viking/Banshee) B. Protoss tries to make their own mass Air switch to Carriers and/or Void Rays
Anyway my current mindset/gameplan with Mech in TvP has been to constantly remind myself of two things: turtle and harass. I only push when I'm trying to get rid of my early game Marines, which is always at the time I scout the Protoss taking his 3rd (while I take my own 3rd behind it). Other than that I just use Banshees, Hellion drops, and Hellion runbys to kill as many Probes as possible while I secure an economic and army advantage as I max out with tons of orbitals, a low SCV count, and a gigantic, well upgraded and diverse Mech army. Also I survive behind strategic building of sensor towers, barracks/planetaries, and turrets. To those more experienced with mech, does that sound like a solid game plan?
Also I'm trying to work on incorporating more Ghosts into my play, but I don't usually feel the need for Ghosts unless I scout huge Immortal/Archon numbers. However if I'm able to get BCs out, I often don't feel like the Ghosts are necessary to deal with Archons and Immortals unless the Protoss is specifically massing them.
On March 21 2012 23:46 Blasterion wrote: So yeah back to the topic I think late game planetaries are great ways to hinder mass post battle warp ins.
Yes, and also Barracks are a cheap way to manipulate battlefields. With Mech you have tons of extra minerals, and building/floating Barracks on the battlefield to create artificial chokes and block flanking attempts will surprise you with how powerful it can be!
I've watched Yoshi Kirishima's games on his stream quite a bit, and on Shakuras Plateau, after taking his 3rd base, he often builds two Planetaries and a ton of ebays/barracks to wall off and turtle up in the middle and controlling the watchtowers, and then uses sensor towers on the outsides of the map so he can see any kind of harassment attempt coming, then he just takes all his bases. Since Mech is usually only limited by gas income and not minerals, this is actually surprisingly affordable. I haven't gotten the chance to try it yet though because every Protoss I've played on ladder since I decided to try Mech has allinned me, or it hasn't been on this map.
Also, I think despite Lynna's advice to stay with Banshees despite Colossi, I think it might be a good idea to make a Reactor whenever you choose to get your 2nd Starport. I say this because Vikings are useful for stopping Warp Prisms, you can make a single Medivac for dropping Hellions to harass sniping Observers, and can help a ton when A. You decide to switch to full Sky Terran (Raven/BC/Viking/Banshee) B. Protoss tries to make their own mass Air switch to Carriers and/or Void Rays
Anyway my current mindset/gameplan with Mech in TvP has been to constantly remind myself of two things: turtle and harass. I only push when I'm trying to get rid of my early game Marines, which is always at the time I scout the Protoss taking his 3rd (while I take my own 3rd behind it). Other than that I just use Banshees, Hellion drops, and Hellion runbys to kill as many Probes as possible while I secure an economic and army advantage as I max out with tons of orbitals, a low SCV count, and a gigantic, well upgraded and diverse Mech army. Also I survive behind strategic building of sensor towers, barracks/planetaries, and turrets. To those more experienced with mech, does that sound like a solid game plan?
Also I'm trying to work on incorporating more Ghosts into my play, but I don't usually feel the need for Ghosts unless I scout huge Immortal/Archon numbers. However if I'm able to get BCs out, I often don't feel like the Ghosts are necessary to deal with Archons and Immortals unless the Protoss is specifically massing them.
Planetaries why you cost gas
Yeah, but I'd rather have 2 Planetaries making my entire Mech army more powerful than 1 Thor and 1 Tank added to it. Conversely if you don't want to spend gas you could build Orbitals on the CCs in the middle, which then proceed to actually help your economy quite a bit.
On March 21 2012 23:46 Blasterion wrote: So yeah back to the topic I think late game planetaries are great ways to hinder mass post battle warp ins.
Yes, and also Barracks are a cheap way to manipulate battlefields. With Mech you have tons of extra minerals, and building/floating Barracks on the battlefield to create artificial chokes and block flanking attempts will surprise you with how powerful it can be!
I've watched Yoshi Kirishima's games on his stream quite a bit, and on Shakuras Plateau, after taking his 3rd base, he often builds two Planetaries and a ton of ebays/barracks to wall off and turtle up in the middle and controlling the watchtowers, and then uses sensor towers on the outsides of the map so he can see any kind of harassment attempt coming, then he just takes all his bases. Since Mech is usually only limited by gas income and not minerals, this is actually surprisingly affordable. I haven't gotten the chance to try it yet though because every Protoss I've played on ladder since I decided to try Mech has allinned me, or it hasn't been on this map.
Also, I think despite Lynna's advice to stay with Banshees despite Colossi, I think it might be a good idea to make a Reactor whenever you choose to get your 2nd Starport. I say this because Vikings are useful for stopping Warp Prisms, you can make a single Medivac for dropping Hellions to harass sniping Observers, and can help a ton when A. You decide to switch to full Sky Terran (Raven/BC/Viking/Banshee) B. Protoss tries to make their own mass Air switch to Carriers and/or Void Rays
Anyway my current mindset/gameplan with Mech in TvP has been to constantly remind myself of two things: turtle and harass. I only push when I'm trying to get rid of my early game Marines, which is always at the time I scout the Protoss taking his 3rd (while I take my own 3rd behind it). Other than that I just use Banshees, Hellion drops, and Hellion runbys to kill as many Probes as possible while I secure an economic and army advantage as I max out with tons of orbitals, a low SCV count, and a gigantic, well upgraded and diverse Mech army. Also I survive behind strategic building of sensor towers, barracks/planetaries, and turrets. To those more experienced with mech, does that sound like a solid game plan?
Also I'm trying to work on incorporating more Ghosts into my play, but I don't usually feel the need for Ghosts unless I scout huge Immortal/Archon numbers. However if I'm able to get BCs out, I often don't feel like the Ghosts are necessary to deal with Archons and Immortals unless the Protoss is specifically massing them.
Planetaries why you cost gas
Yeah, but I'd rather have 2 Planetaries making my entire Mech army more powerful than 1 Thor and 1 Tank added to it. Conversely if you don't want to spend gas you could build Orbitals on the CCs in the middle, which then proceed to actually help your economy quite a bit.
Except orbitals don't have 5 armor. Btw ghost academies make the best walls. Most hp/cost with the highest repair rate of any Terran building. Too bad though they too cost gas but they are very very good walls over 1k health with 30 build time? The repair rate is absolutely insane. Also they store nukes.
Could be a good idea if you have a ton of bank and want to nuke harass! Wouldn't it be weird if the protoss has vision of the ghost academies when he's getting nuked?
On March 22 2012 00:16 crocodile wrote: Could be a good idea if you have a ton of bank and want to nuke harass! Wouldn't it be weird if the protoss has vision of the ghost academies when he's getting nuked?
They'll think it's like bm or something but hahaha silos make great walls and build very fast, raxs build twice as slow with less hp, not worth it.
On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote: As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo
First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted.
Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well.
first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread.
second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not
Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that.
Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off.
He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck.
<3 :D
Edit: Forgot to add that any push by mech before the 12:00 mark will get utterly crushed cause it will be tiny and ineffective. Gateway units will shit on it.
Is that why the only actual mech pushes seen in the GSL are all 9:30-12 min 4fac tank hellion (marine residue) pushes (designed against 2base toss play none the less; as in no 6 min third).?
If terran is good at anything it's all-inning at around that time.
What that game showed me is how overrated hellions are against zealots. Note that there was allmost no splash dmg from P (he forgot to upgrade storm lol).
In the first fight there were 16 Zealots 4 Stalker and 4 Sentrys against 11 Hellions 5 Tanks and 25 Marines Don't wana whine to much but i think there is a cost efficiency problem aswel with mech, particularly since the hellion nerf.
On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote: As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo
First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted.
Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well.
first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread.
second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not
Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that.
Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off.
He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck.
<3 :D
Edit: Forgot to add that any push by mech before the 12:00 mark will get utterly crushed cause it will be tiny and ineffective. Gateway units will shit on it.
Is that why the only actual mech pushes seen in the GSL are all 9:30-12 min 4fac tank hellion (marine residue) pushes (designed against 2base toss play none the less; as in no 6 min third).?
If terran is good at anything it's all-inning at around that time.
What that game showed me is how overrated hellions are against zealots. Note that there was allmost no splash dmg from P (he forgot to upgrade storm lol).
In the first fight there were 16 Zealots 4 Stalker and 4 Sentrys against 11 Hellions 5 Tanks and 25 Marines Don't wana whine to much but i think there is a cost efficiency problem aswel with mech, particularly since the hellion nerf.
Hellions are more buffering than anything your real dps come from tank thor banshee. Hellions suck build only enough to buffer for your tanks your real core units should actually be tank banshee
On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote: As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo
First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted.
Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well.
first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread.
second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not
Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that.
Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off.
He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck.
<3 :D
Edit: Forgot to add that any push by mech before the 12:00 mark will get utterly crushed cause it will be tiny and ineffective. Gateway units will shit on it.
Is that why the only actual mech pushes seen in the GSL are all 9:30-12 min 4fac tank hellion (marine residue) pushes (designed against 2base toss play none the less; as in no 6 min third).?
If terran is good at anything it's all-inning at around that time.
What that game showed me is how overrated hellions are against zealots. Note that there was allmost no splash dmg from P (he forgot to upgrade storm lol).
In the first fight there were 16 Zealots 4 Stalker and 4 Sentrys against 11 Hellions 5 Tanks and 25 Marines Don't wana whine to much but i think there is a cost efficiency problem aswel with mech, particularly since the hellion nerf.
Hellions are more buffering than anything your real dps come from tank thor banshee. Hellions suck build only enough to buffer for your tanks
I know, that's how i do it. It's just for people that think that Hellions are great against Zealots. They just aren't. When you add AOE from protoss it gets very messy. Gues that's why they are adding Battle Hellions (buffing their HP :p )
On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote: As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo
First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted.
Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well.
first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread.
second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not
Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that.
Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off.
He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck.
<3 :D
Edit: Forgot to add that any push by mech before the 12:00 mark will get utterly crushed cause it will be tiny and ineffective. Gateway units will shit on it.
Is that why the only actual mech pushes seen in the GSL are all 9:30-12 min 4fac tank hellion (marine residue) pushes (designed against 2base toss play none the less; as in no 6 min third).?
If terran is good at anything it's all-inning at around that time.
What that game showed me is how overrated hellions are against zealots. Note that there was allmost no splash dmg from P (he forgot to upgrade storm lol).
In the first fight there were 16 Zealots 4 Stalker and 4 Sentrys against 11 Hellions 5 Tanks and 25 Marines Don't wana whine to much but i think there is a cost efficiency problem aswel with mech, particularly since the hellion nerf.
Hellions are more buffering than anything your real dps come from tank thor banshee. Hellions suck build only enough to buffer for your tanks
I know, that's how i do it. It's just for people that think that Hellions are great against Zealots. They just aren't. When you add AOE from protoss it gets very messy. Gues that's why they are adding Battle Hellions (buffing their HP :p )
I'd just use shredder tank lol...... I think that would actually work brilliantly
I am a convert (plat terran). Many thanks to those contributing to this thread I have been playing the vileIllusion type build with some success and lots of fun. Couple of questions for the experienced mechers. 1.What is the best harassment to a cannoned base? 2. If the protoss compostion is colosuss heavy are vikings a good idea assuming you dont have several starports with techlabs for banshee or many banshees already?
On March 22 2012 00:28 Evenfl0w wrote: I am a convert (plat terran). Many thanks to those contributing to this thread I have been playing the vileIllusion type build with some success and lots of fun. Couple of questions for the experienced mechers. 1.What is the best harassment to a cannoned base? 2. If the protoss compostion is colosuss heavy are vikings a good idea assuming you dont have several starports with techlabs for banshee or many banshees already?
1. There is never a good answer for this. It depends on the cannon position an terrain. Hellions are usually an option to run in and kill probes, banshee aren't great against cannons. If its a position you can siege like taldarim, then tanks are great. Otherwise you can always nuke them from outside cannon range. And then run your hellions in if the probes survive. 2. Against colossus Viking is usually An better option because they fight from siege range thus zoning the colossus, and if stalkers come in they'll be eating tank shells. Banshees are higher dps but are risky.
No no no no no no. Hellions have endless utility with mech if you can multitask. I don't know if you ever play Bio vs zerg, but the trick in the mu is to drop whenever you do anything. Take another base? Drop. Add production? Drop. Zerg attacks you? Drop. Same applies to hellions with mech.
Whenever you need breathing room (basically all the time) drop hellions in one place, run them in another place, etc. I get two reactor factories out of my first three. And in large numbers, they DO annihilate charge lots. They are also your mobile reaction force. Hellions are really good, you might just not be using them right.
1. There is never a good answer for this. It depends on the cannon position an terrain. Hellions are usually an option to run in and kill probes, banshee aren't great against cannons. If its a position you can siege like taldarim, then tanks are great. Otherwise you can always nuke them from outside cannon range. And then run your hellions in if the probes survive.
I like this idea of a delayed hellion run-by after nuke or something else killing cannons, after any army moves away but before cannons are rebuilt. Will have to try and work this situation.
1. There is never a good answer for this. It depends on the cannon position an terrain. Hellions are usually an option to run in and kill probes, banshee aren't great against cannons. If its a position you can siege like taldarim, then tanks are great. Otherwise you can always nuke them from outside cannon range. And then run your hellions in if the probes survive.
I like this idea of a delayed hellion run-by after nuke or something else killing cannons, after any army moves away but before cannons are rebuilt. Will have to try and work this situation.
In the super late game if you have a decent Battlecruiser/Banshee force, you can fly in and snipe expansions even if they do have lots of cannons, and fly back before their counter attack hits your lines (if they do choose to counter attack, and teh distance depends on the map). After all, in the late game it's more about sniping expansions than Probes.
On February 13 2012 09:17 crocodile wrote: I greatly respect your attempts at Mech TvP, but I have to say I actually don't think you can beat good Blink Stalker builds or Warp Prism play with it. The problem is that Mech is only cost effective when it's in a big death ball in any matchup, and Protoss is actually much better at punishing this even than Zerg or Terran because of the warp-in mechanic.
Yeah in my opinion, a well timed Blink stalker build completely destroys mech builds. Not only because this build would punish mech in its early stages, when there are not that many tanks, but also because mech has limited to no mobility.
Even leaving a few tanks seiged in base is not going to be cost efficient when stalkers blink up, absorbing the volleys with their shields and pick off the tanks. Then tech labs and infrastructure, economy can be picked off while the stalkers blink out.
If at any point in time you leave one area exposed, you are weak to zealot run bys at natural or a warp prism at either base. This will be sufficient to contain you on 2 base, while the Protoss has impunity to take a 3rd base relatively quickly and there's nothing you can do about it.
Meanwhile you could eventually defend the position, at least from annoying blink stalker harass, but not before the economy of a 3 base Protoss overtakes you and grants Protoss a large enough supply lead to thrash through your mech.
On February 13 2012 09:17 crocodile wrote: I greatly respect your attempts at Mech TvP, but I have to say I actually don't think you can beat good Blink Stalker builds or Warp Prism play with it. The problem is that Mech is only cost effective when it's in a big death ball in any matchup, and Protoss is actually much better at punishing this even than Zerg or Terran because of the warp-in mechanic.
Yeah in my opinion, a well timed Blink stalker build completely destroys mech builds. Not only because this build would punish mech in its early stages, when there are not that many tanks, but also because mech has limited to no mobility.
Even leaving a few tanks seiged in base is not going to be cost efficient when stalkers blink up, absorbing the volleys with their shields and pick off the tanks. Then tech labs and infrastructure, economy can be picked off while the stalkers blink out.
If at any point in time you leave one area exposed, you are weak to zealot run bys at natural or a warp prism at either base. This will be sufficient to contain you on 2 base, while the Protoss has impunity to take a 3rd base relatively quickly and there's nothing you can do about it.
Meanwhile you could eventually defend the position, at least from annoying blink stalker harass, but not before the economy of a 3 base Protoss overtakes you and grants Protoss a large enough supply lead to thrash through your mech.
Please read the discussion. This thread is not about Mech's viability, but how to improve mech play. If you have tips for helping people play Mech, that's great! If not, go find somewhere else to talk about that. We've already discussed that to beat Blink harass you need good sim city, sensor towers, a turret ring, and to leave tanks sieged in your base. Hellions are sufficient against Chargelots; they are faster and more efficient at killing Chargelots warped in to harass than bio.
And yes, I know that original quote is from me, but I have since changed my position on Mech and also have realized that what I said then is not relevant to the discussion now.
I would also like to add something about mech's viability discussion.
Lots of people are bashing about mech, and the main things we see are : -Openings vulnerable to some allins -Protoss can just get a fast third and roll over you -Weak lategame (i rofl hard when i see this one) due to mass warp-ins.
Ok, so now, STOP. Read what i said, read your own arguments, and now think about the classic bio . . . are you going to say that your bio opening can't be punished be an allin ,that a toss can never try to get an early protoss without getting crushed instantly (and in fact, does the protoss need to get that 3rd early to crush you?) , and that your army deal easily with lategame mass warp? . . . Oh wait. And suddenly, bashing mech seems kind of pointless , because a lots of 'flaws' (most of them being imaginary . . .) are also found with most bio strats . . .
It's just like Day9 said in the Day9 Daily on TvP mech. If mech was the standard and people were suggesting bio for TvP, people would say "Bio is not viable: you're super vulnerable to force fields, and Protoss AoE is absurdly strong. You can't kill Archons easily, and you have no good way to deal with Chargelots. Also drops are useless because of warp in. And your late game army is so weak! I don't know why people even bother experimenting with bio you should stop wasting your time and use mech like the pros."
The fact is people will always resist change and be naturally closed minded. You can't convince them, Lyyna, just write that guide for the rest of us who are newer to Mech to use, and ignore the haters.
On March 22 2012 04:15 Lyyna wrote: I would also like to add something about mech's viability discussion.
Lots of people are bashing about mech, and the main things we see are : -Openings vulnerable to some allins -Protoss can just get a fast third and roll over you -Weak lategame (i rofl hard when i see this one) due to mass warp-ins.
Ok, so now, STOP. Read what i said, read your own arguments, and now think about the classic bio . . . are you going to say that your bio opening can't be punished be an allin ,that a toss can never try to get an early protoss without getting crushed instantly (and in fact, does the protoss need to get that 3rd early to crush you?) , and that your army deal easily with lategame mass warp? . . . Oh wait. And suddenly, bashing mech seems kind of pointless , because a lots of 'flaws' (most of them being imaginary . . .) are also found with most bio strats . . .
Pointing out strong deficiencies, or bashing if you prefer, is how you improve a build/ style. If a build just rolls over and dies to a common all in then it's not a good build, is it?
The point is to identify weaknesses and smoth them out. Thats what a good build is about. I belive it's called stress testing.
Saying stuff like "omg You're a noob this will never work because XXX" without anything to back up your 'flaw', when people have already shown how to take care of that is free and retarded bashing. And this is what people are doing about mech since, well . . . beta?
On March 22 2012 04:15 Lyyna wrote: I would also like to add something about mech's viability discussion.
Lots of people are bashing about mech, and the main things we see are : -Openings vulnerable to some allins -Protoss can just get a fast third and roll over you -Weak lategame (i rofl hard when i see this one) due to mass warp-ins.
Ok, so now, STOP. Read what i said, read your own arguments, and now think about the classic bio . . . are you going to say that your bio opening can't be punished be an allin ,that a toss can never try to get an early protoss without getting crushed instantly (and in fact, does the protoss need to get that 3rd early to crush you?) , and that your army deal easily with lategame mass warp? . . . Oh wait. And suddenly, bashing mech seems kind of pointless , because a lots of 'flaws' (most of them being imaginary . . .) are also found with most bio strats . . .
Pointing out strong deficiencies, or bashing if you prefer, is how you improve a build/ style. If a build just rolls over and dies to a common all in then it's not a good build, is it?
The point is to identify weaknesses and smoth them out. Thats what a good build is about. I belive it's called stress testing.
But there hasn't been any identification of weaknesses, or suggestions for improvement, which WOULD be good ways to help improve a build. Instead people just join the thread to explain why Protoss is better than mech and that we should stop trying Regardless of the fact that we've discussed ways to deal with all of the things people keep bringing up, new people keep coming in and posting something to that effect. It's frustrating.
On March 22 2012 04:32 Lyyna wrote: Saying stuff like "omg You're a noob this will never work because XXX" without anything to back up your 'flaw', when people have already shown how to take care of that is free and retarded bashing. And this is what people are doing about mech since, well . . . beta?
Wel, yeah, just ignore the "OMG" idiots.
However, i think it's silly to talk about late game PF and nukes and etc when you don't have the early game figuered out.
Take bio. "Standard" builds do a nr of things:
-Set up a decent timed expo
-Set the production and upgrade times to have a good mid/ late game transition and/or have timings to punish the opponent
-NOT die to ANY known Protoss timings. Sure, some things will be a lot harder to hold then others but, you have realistic "counters" available to any Protoss agresion. By counters i mean the posibility to adapt to whatever you might scout (within reason)
When i read about mech builds that die (do not have the possibility to adapt in a resonable/ realistic time) to common things like 4G/ blink all in/ stargate play, i call it a "gamble" build, or TBH, a bad build.
Again, having a weakness it's ok, being hard countered by a build it's not.
On March 22 2012 04:15 Lyyna wrote: I would also like to add something about mech's viability discussion.
Lots of people are bashing about mech, and the main things we see are : -Openings vulnerable to some allins -Protoss can just get a fast third and roll over you -Weak lategame (i rofl hard when i see this one) due to mass warp-ins.
Ok, so now, STOP. Read what i said, read your own arguments, and now think about the classic bio . . . are you going to say that your bio opening can't be punished be an allin ,that a toss can never try to get an early protoss without getting crushed instantly (and in fact, does the protoss need to get that 3rd early to crush you?) , and that your army deal easily with lategame mass warp? . . . Oh wait. And suddenly, bashing mech seems kind of pointless , because a lots of 'flaws' (most of them being imaginary . . .) are also found with most bio strats . . .
Pointing out strong deficiencies, or bashing if you prefer, is how you improve a build/ style. If a build just rolls over and dies to a common all in then it's not a good build, is it?
The point is to identify weaknesses and smoth them out. Thats what a good build is about. I belive it's called stress testing.
But there hasn't been any identification of weaknesses, or suggestions for improvement, which WOULD be good ways to help improve a build. Instead people just join the thread to explain why Protoss is better than mech and that we should stop trying Regardless of the fact that we've discussed ways to deal with all of the things people keep bringing up, new people keep coming in and posting something to that effect. It's frustrating.
I agree. And TBF, i'm talknig mostly about the op and the "Weaknesses" section.
"I have yet to find out how to stop these but luckily for me they are relatively uncommon all ins." this is a MAJOR problem IMO.
I'm pointing it out because i play mech in every MU since BETA and i know how hard i've tryed to find good all rounded builds. Except for the reactor rax with A LOT of marines i havent seen any
On February 13 2012 09:17 crocodile wrote: I greatly respect your attempts at Mech TvP, but I have to say I actually don't think you can beat good Blink Stalker builds or Warp Prism play with it. The problem is that Mech is only cost effective when it's in a big death ball in any matchup, and Protoss is actually much better at punishing this even than Zerg or Terran because of the warp-in mechanic.
Yeah in my opinion, a well timed Blink stalker build completely destroys mech builds. Not only because this build would punish mech in its early stages, when there are not that many tanks, but also because mech has limited to no mobility.
Even leaving a few tanks seiged in base is not going to be cost efficient when stalkers blink up, absorbing the volleys with their shields and pick off the tanks. Then tech labs and infrastructure, economy can be picked off while the stalkers blink out.
If at any point in time you leave one area exposed, you are weak to zealot run bys at natural or a warp prism at either base. This will be sufficient to contain you on 2 base, while the Protoss has impunity to take a 3rd base relatively quickly and there's nothing you can do about it.
Meanwhile you could eventually defend the position, at least from annoying blink stalker harass, but not before the economy of a 3 base Protoss overtakes you and grants Protoss a large enough supply lead to thrash through your mech.
(early-midgame situation)I think we should build our supply depot in parallel with the border. If the stalker blink they'll be trap in the wall of depot. That can give you an extra 5 second to bring you tank in your base. Or even better, if you see the blink coming you can let some tank in your base, and if they blink they'll be trap and the tanks will have a good dps. Obviously make sensor tower and turret ring.
(early-midgame situation) Sometime its work but not always. If you have see the stalker coming for your main. You can take a thors in a medivac, or viking and snipe the observer.
(lategame situation) Dont build all your production building in your main. If you see the stalker coming, you can lift your building, maybe put your building in the center of the map where you cut the map in half. The protoss can kill your supply depot of your main but anyway you'll have mass OC for the supply. For the far expansion, you need planetary and sensor tower.
On March 22 2012 04:32 Lyyna wrote: Saying stuff like "omg You're a noob this will never work because XXX" without anything to back up your 'flaw', when people have already shown how to take care of that is free and retarded bashing. And this is what people are doing about mech since, well . . . beta?
You guys are really just wasting your time with threads like this. A very small miniority of players are even willing to try new things in their game play, while an overwhelming majority are more than eager to tell you how dumb you are for experimenting. Nothing you say will convince people on the internet of the merits of your arguments. As someone in this thread said already, it doesnt matter if mech is viable or not, bio play is the standard and thats what people want to do. None of you in this thread are named IM_MVP, SlayerS_MMA, or MarineKingPrime. Thus, you shall all be ignored as irrelevant sources of strategy. The vast majority of players (including pro players) do not have the ingenuity to experiment with new builds. Just about everyone picks a style they like that another player uses and they copy it as best they can manage.
For those like me and who enjoy the mech play style and are just trying to figure out how it can be done better, I would recommend private conversations amongst yourselves with PMs or chat rooms or whatever. The only thing thats going to happen on an internet forum is bickering and name calling.
On March 22 2012 04:32 Lyyna wrote: Saying stuff like "omg You're a noob this will never work because XXX" without anything to back up your 'flaw', when people have already shown how to take care of that is free and retarded bashing. And this is what people are doing about mech since, well . . . beta?
You guys are really just wasting your time with threads like this. A very small miniority of players are even willing to try new things in their game play, while an overwhelming majority are more than eager to tell you how dumb you are for experimenting. Nothing you say will convince people on the internet of the merits of your arguments. As someone in this thread said already, it doesnt matter if mech is viable or not, bio play is the standard and thats what people want to do. None of you in this thread are named IM_MVP, SlayerS_MMA, or MarineKingPrime. Thus, you shall all be ignored as irrelevant sources of strategy. The vast majority of players (including pro players) do not have the ingenuity to experiment with new builds. Just about everyone picks a style they like that another player uses and they copy it as best they can manage.
For those like me and who enjoy the mech play style and are just trying to figure out how it can be done better, I would recommend private conversations amongst yourselves with PMs or chat rooms or whatever. The only thing thats going to happen on an internet forum is bickering and name calling.
@Banex : This is something i want to change,and this is why i'm going to release my guide soon . . .and i'll try to keep it alive with updates for a long time
On March 22 2012 04:32 Lyyna wrote: Saying stuff like "omg You're a noob this will never work because XXX" without anything to back up your 'flaw', when people have already shown how to take care of that is free and retarded bashing. And this is what people are doing about mech since, well . . . beta?
You guys are really just wasting your time with threads like this. A very small miniority of players are even willing to try new things in their game play, while an overwhelming majority are more than eager to tell you how dumb you are for experimenting. Nothing you say will convince people on the internet of the merits of your arguments. As someone in this thread said already, it doesnt matter if mech is viable or not, bio play is the standard and thats what people want to do. None of you in this thread are named IM_MVP, SlayerS_MMA, or MarineKingPrime. Thus, you shall all be ignored as irrelevant sources of strategy. The vast majority of players (including pro players) do not have the ingenuity to experiment with new builds. Just about everyone picks a style they like that another player uses and they copy it as best they can manage.
For those like me and who enjoy the mech play style and are just trying to figure out how it can be done better, I would recommend private conversations amongst yourselves with PMs or chat rooms or whatever. The only thing thats going to happen on an internet forum is bickering and name calling.
A guide can peak people's interest I suppose, but if you ask me everyone will get much more out of playing, observing, and chatting about games and working to improve together in real time. Problem is i've never been able to find a group of people like that, not to mention protoss players willing to practice frequently. Perhaps you'll have better luck.
On February 13 2012 09:17 crocodile wrote: I greatly respect your attempts at Mech TvP, but I have to say I actually don't think you can beat good Blink Stalker builds or Warp Prism play with it. The problem is that Mech is only cost effective when it's in a big death ball in any matchup, and Protoss is actually much better at punishing this even than Zerg or Terran because of the warp-in mechanic.
Yeah in my opinion, a well timed Blink stalker build completely destroys mech builds. Not only because this build would punish mech in its early stages, when there are not that many tanks, but also because mech has limited to no mobility.
Even leaving a few tanks seiged in base is not going to be cost efficient when stalkers blink up, absorbing the volleys with their shields and pick off the tanks. Then tech labs and infrastructure, economy can be picked off while the stalkers blink out.
If at any point in time you leave one area exposed, you are weak to zealot run bys at natural or a warp prism at either base. This will be sufficient to contain you on 2 base, while the Protoss has impunity to take a 3rd base relatively quickly and there's nothing you can do about it.
Meanwhile you could eventually defend the position, at least from annoying blink stalker harass, but not before the economy of a 3 base Protoss overtakes you and grants Protoss a large enough supply lead to thrash through your mech.
(early-midgame situation)I think we should build our supply depot in parallel with the border. If the stalker blink they'll be trap in the wall of depot. That can give you an extra 5 second to bring you tank in your base. Or even better, if you see the blink coming you can let some tank in your base, and if they blink they'll be trap and the tanks will have a good dps. Obviously make sensor tower and turret ring.
(early-midgame situation) Sometime its work but not always. If you have see the stalker coming for your main. You can take a thors in a medivac, or viking and snipe the observer.
(lategame situation) Dont build all your production building in your main. If you see the stalker coming, you can lift your building, maybe put your building in the center of the map where you cut the map in half. The protoss can kill your supply depot of your main but anyway you'll have mass OC for the supply. For the far expansion, you need planetary and sensor tower.
Certainly a sensor tower is required if you go mech. I will definitely agree with that. I'm just adding my two cents as a Top master player who has done my share of experimentation with mech. I'll believe it when I see it.
Dragon has been doing mech in TvP lately with ghosts and so far I dislike it very much. Mech is very positioning based and very immobile. Blink stalkers with an oberserver is so deadly in many maps vs mech. Turrets don't do much because if the observer finds a sweet spot between turrets or on a corner then all it takes is 1 blink stalker to get vision for the rest to come up. Even suiciding the observer to get 1 stalker up is worth it in the late game if you can pick off a base or 2 with some scvs before the mech army can get there. Hellions can't deal with blink stalkers so you need ot move your tanks/thors which are very slow and by the time you get there, they can blink away. They also kill PF's pretty quickly when there is enough of them. Once you move your tanks and thors and they see that, They can push the front since they know most of your tanks will not be seiged. chargelots do really well against tanks too and I still feel that BF hellions don't do that great against them. Especially if you send your hellions to where you get harrassed and end up losing them all.
So having skimmed through the thread I haven't seen much mention on maps in correlation to Mech TvP as whenever I have tried to Mech vs a P I have only really felt comfortable on 3 maps (though I am not the best player), Those being Metalopolis, Xel,Naga ( i know not relay relevant anymore) and Antiga.
I am going to look at replays in a moment but I wanted to ask what maps do people veto and how do you go about limiting the mobility of a Protoss as the times I have really felt Mech is good is when I'm not being agressive with my army but positioning myself in either a Threatening position forcing the P to react or a very good defensive position that prevents the Protoss from expanding while I am able to take additional bases (metal is great for this).
Also I was wondering on the best ways to constrict space on more open maps as Tanks while good aren't great in small numbers and Planetary's aren't great unsupported is it something you try to do or Is it something that you just ignore as their are bigger worries (warp prism and blink being the biggest).
On March 22 2012 07:15 MarcH wrote: So having skimmed through the thread I haven't seen much mention on maps in correlation to Mech TvP as whenever I have tried to Mech vs a P I have only really felt comfortable on 3 maps (though I am not the best player), Those being Metalopolis, Xel,Naga ( i know not relay relevant anymore) and Antiga.
I am going to look at replays in a moment but I wanted to ask what maps do people veto and how do you go about limiting the mobility of a Protoss as the times I have really felt Mech is good is when I'm not being agressive with my army but positioning myself in either a Threatening position forcing the P to react or a very good defensive position that prevents the Protoss from expanding while I am able to take additional bases (metal is great for this).
Also I was wondering on the best ways to constrict space on more open maps as Tanks while good aren't great in small numbers and Planetary's aren't great unsupported is it something you try to do or Is it something that you just ignore as their are bigger worries (warp prism and blink being the biggest).
Actually I think Shakuras is a great mech map. Watch towers, the way expansions are laid out, It's just asking to be Half mapped into the great fortress of mech. as for Terrain Moding, Planetaries are great, you can't always fit them, Ghost academy make AWESOME walls, Big hp pool, sick repair rate, cheap, and fastest built building available to Terran, faster than Bunker Suppy depot, raxes, W/E
On March 22 2012 07:15 MarcH wrote: So having skimmed through the thread I haven't seen much mention on maps in correlation to Mech TvP as whenever I have tried to Mech vs a P I have only really felt comfortable on 3 maps (though I am not the best player), Those being Metalopolis, Xel,Naga ( i know not relay relevant anymore) and Antiga.
I am going to look at replays in a moment but I wanted to ask what maps do people veto and how do you go about limiting the mobility of a Protoss as the times I have really felt Mech is good is when I'm not being agressive with my army but positioning myself in either a Threatening position forcing the P to react or a very good defensive position that prevents the Protoss from expanding while I am able to take additional bases (metal is great for this).
Also I was wondering once the best ways to constrict space on more open maps as Tanks while good aren't great in small numbers and Planetary's aren't great unsupported is it something you try to do or Is it something that you just ignore as their are bigger worries (warp prism and blink being the biggest).
Only map in the current map pool that's tough for mech is taldarim. Shakuras, shattered, metal=great for split map. Cloud kingdom, korhal, entombed= great 3-4 base turtle, narrow engagement paths Also like I said before you float minerals with mech so barracks make great mobile chokes. Try it.
Ive never been a fan of mech on Shattered and Shakuras as the middle is so open I feel like my army is to likely to be picked apart by a protoss just focusing all his army against a small portion of mine. Perhaps im playing it wrong or have a bad comp but I just never feel comfortable. ALso I do like the idea of using rax as mobile walls but I still feel like I would be too open to counterattacks on Cloud kingdom, Korhal and Entombed and that It could become very basetradey. What sort of unit comps are people using Im using a handful of Banshee's 5-8 at the most some vikings to deter any air play in small numbers and allow me to pick of WP's etc and the rest of my supply split between tank, thor hellion on a roughly 1-1-2 ish mix as a rough estimate of numbers
Definitely don't need that many Thors, just enough to tank damage. You want a good number of probably 1:1 or 1:1.5 ratio of Tanks to Hellions (read: lots of both), some Banshees, some Vikings (ratio depends on Colossus count), and when you can add them, Battlecruisers and Ghosts. I'd only add Ghosts if the Protoss decides to mass Immortals and Archons though. If it's all Archons, Thors are going to handle it. If it's all Immortals, Banshees can handle it. If it's a lot of both, you need Ghosts, although if you can get a decent BC/Banshee/Raven count you can eventually switch to full Sky Terran there's very little they can do at that point.
On Shakuras, as mentioned previously, you should wall off the middle with Planetaries or Orbitals and place your tanks behind them. On Shattered, you take your half of the map and place Planetaries/Sensor Towers/Turrets/Rax near the chokes on your side.
On March 22 2012 08:37 MarcH wrote: I've never been a fan of mech on Shattered and Shakuras as the middle is so open I feel like my army is to likely to be picked apart by a protoss just focusing all his army against a small portion of mine. Perhaps im playing it wrong or have a bad comp but I just never feel comfortable. ALso I do like the idea of using rax as mobile walls but I still feel like I would be too open to counterattacks on Cloud kingdom, Korhal and Entombed and that It could become very basetradey. What sort of unit comps are people using Im using a handful of Banshee's 5-8 at the most some vikings to deter any air play in small numbers and allow me to pick of WP's etc and the rest of my supply split between tank, thor hellion on a roughly 1-1-2 ish mix as a rough estimate of numbers
I agree on Shattered, cross positions can be pretty scary to move out on, but I'm surprised you don't like close by air positions. I find that very easy to expand into the Protoss, good for Banshee harass, you can control the XNT in between you and him and shut down all Blink harass with a few tanks and ghost and Turrets. Whats you are on your third, you are 2 Tank hops away from his natural.
Korhal I don't know, I struggle getting that third safely. It has to be a PF, and I still struggle with heavy 2 base Colossus / Blink Stalker armies. I saw in some games recently, some KR's either Ganzi or Rainbow streaming, they were taking their 3rd as the base above their main. I think it's a lot shorter of a distance to actually protect from the Blink Stalker / Colossus. It gives you a much shorter safer path than the natural third. Entombed is pretty good that way in close positions or even close by air a little bit. I don't like to get so many banshees, they aren't great eventually, you just can't keep up in upgrades. Go BC's and maybe get 1/1 if you want the Banshee effect in late game engagements. I don't know about the 'perfect' composition, but Lyyna has made some pretty crazy late game armies.
I feel a lack of the Protoss side for this and as a Protoss I don't see mech work ever. I've had several Terran try mech on several different maps and Protoss blind counters it in standard Protoss versus Terran game play. The Mech death ball is very powerful when sieged, but not invincible. And even still, a Protoss won't let a Terran push out on the map if they keep tabs on the army. A good Protoss will expoit the forced splittin' of the Terran to defend. I've pushed INTO a Terran Siege Tank, Thor, Hellion, Raven, Banshee, Viking and Planetary defense with the Protoss death ball and CRUSHED the Terran army. Zealots tear through Siege Tanks and Thors like its nobodies business. Colossus decimate as well. Stalkers are the weak link, but if you watch most Protoss versus Terran at high levels, stalker counts have always been low. Charge Zealots and Colossus with a few Archons and High Templar for Psionic Storm is what most Protoss go for. The stalkers are used simply to clear Vikings and Medivacs. The Terran mech death ball is way to immobile. Zealots are way more beefy then marines, zerglins, banelings, roaches, and hydralisks which all crumble to siege tanks. I haven't even mentioned the Immortal that makes quick work of Siege Tanks like its nobodies business! Not only do they take squat for damage from a Siege Tank, they absolutely decimate Siege Tank after Siege Tank.
I'm not sayin' this cannot work. I'm just sayin' this is a very, very bad build and with this match up already highly in Protoss favor; I would not advice mech in the match up. There is a reason you don't see it in GSL or when you do it fails miserable. I think it was MarineKing who tried it in Code S and I forget who he was against, but he got destroyed (I might not even have the Terran correct, but it was just a free win for the Protoss). And that is one of the more optimal maps in my opinion (the map was Dual Sight).
Summary: Mech is blind countered by standard Protoss play. Even Marine Tank is bad (I can't even figure out how Puzzle lost to GuMiho last season...I think even I could have beaten GuMiho's Marine Tank, its just suboptimal versus Protoss). If you want to "mech" I'd suggest the 1-1-1 all-in be the closest thing you do. And more preferably the 1-1-2 as it is much harder for the Protoss to hold in my opinion (I just hate havin' to get a Stargate just to deal with the extra banshee production; the 1-1-2 is my worst nightmare in the Protoss versus Terran match up honestly).
On March 22 2012 09:29 Troxle wrote: I've pushed INTO a Terran Siege Tank, Thor, Hellion, Raven, Banshee, Viking and Planetary defense
That kind of terran . . "Hey,let's try mech in TvP like i do it in TvZ" ( Y U NO MAKE GHOSTS? ) . . . "Omg it don't work mech is shit". And same for protoss side it seems . . . They see one or two bad mech attemps,then they come and say that mech don't work.
No gaz expo, double gaz into 1-1-1 is viable. Because its safe, I think its the best build for mech.
You have to scout, look if he got 2gaz and if he expo before 6min ect ... also look if he expo at 4min, because you'll not build extra def for nothing.
VS VR allin: you do like jinro , you make marinebunker+tank+viking
VS the blinkstalker allin: you can make fast thors VS 4gate: bunker+tank VS 4gate+warpprism: marine+tank+scv+viking
(in this game at beat the allin, after I had so many mineral but I didn't wanted to make barrack because I wanted to only mech, anyway its just for showing the concept. But I think its better banshee+marine 2base vs this allin)
On March 22 2012 09:29 Troxle wrote: I feel a lack of the Protoss side for this and as a Protoss I don't see mech work ever. I've had several Terran try mech on several different maps and Protoss blind counters it in standard Protoss versus Terran game play. The Mech death ball is very powerful when sieged, but not invincible. And even still, a Protoss won't let a Terran push out on the map if they keep tabs on the army. A good Protoss will expoit the forced splittin' of the Terran to defend. I've pushed INTO a Terran Siege Tank, Thor, Hellion, Raven, Banshee, Viking and Planetary defense with the Protoss death ball and CRUSHED the Terran army. Zealots tear through Siege Tanks and Thors like its nobodies business. Colossus decimate as well. Stalkers are the weak link, but if you watch most Protoss versus Terran at high levels, stalker counts have always been low. Charge Zealots and Colossus with a few Archons and High Templar for Psionic Storm is what most Protoss go for. The stalkers are used simply to clear Vikings and Medivacs. The Terran mech death ball is way to immobile. Zealots are way more beefy then marines, zerglins, banelings, roaches, and hydralisks which all crumble to siege tanks. I haven't even mentioned the Immortal that makes quick work of Siege Tanks like its nobodies business! Not only do they take squat for damage from a Siege Tank, they absolutely decimate Siege Tank after Siege Tank.
I'm not sayin' this cannot work. I'm just sayin' this is a very, very bad build and with this match up already highly in Protoss favor; I would not advice mech in the match up. There is a reason you don't see it in GSL or when you do it fails miserable. I think it was MarineKing who tried it in Code S and I forget who he was against, but he got destroyed (I might not even have the Terran correct, but it was just a free win for the Protoss). And that is one of the more optimal maps in my opinion (the map was Dual Sight).
Summary: Mech is blind countered by standard Protoss play. Even Marine Tank is bad (I can't even figure out how Puzzle lost to GuMiho last season...I think even I could have beaten GuMiho's Marine Tank, its just suboptimal versus Protoss). If you want to "mech" I'd suggest the 1-1-1 all-in be the closest thing you do. And more preferably the 1-1-2 as it is much harder for the Protoss to hold in my opinion (I just hate havin' to get a Stargate just to deal with the extra banshee production; the 1-1-2 is my worst nightmare in the Protoss versus Terran match up honestly).
NOBODY IS ASKING IF MECH IS VIABLE. Nobody cares if you think mech is viable, nobody cares if you think Protoss blind counters mech with standard play. We are not discussing the viability of mech. Can you please please just read the thread and understand that we want to talk about HOW to mech, given that we're going to try it whether it's viable or not.
And by the way, Marineking did it in Code S and DESTROYED Genius. You're so misinformed and disturbingly ignorant of what's actually going on in this thread it's not even funny.
On March 22 2012 11:13 Gyro_SC2 wrote: No gaz expo, double gaz into 1-1-1 is viable. Because its safe, I think its the best build for mech.
You have to scout, look if he got 2gaz and if he expo before 6min ect ... also look if he expo at 4min, because you'll not build extra def for nothing.
VS VR allin: you do like jinro , you make marinebunker+tank+viking
VS the blinkstalker allin: you can make fast thors VS 4gate: bunker+tank VS 4gate+warpprism: marine+tank+scv+viking
(in this game at beat the allin, after I had so many mineral but I didn't wanted to make barrack because I wanted to only mech, anyway its just for showing the concept. But I think its better banshee+marine 2base vs this allin)
This protoss allin hit you at the 9 minute mark. 9 minutes. For a 1 base allin. He missed production cycles. He micro'd awfully. And on top of that, after his initial attack, if he had warped in 4 Stalkers which he had the money for he would have rolled you, but because he was incredibly unbelievably terribly bad, he chose to fall back and expand despite being horribly behind.
IT IS NOT VIABLE. Next time we're online at the same time, we can play and I'll beat you with any one base allin with my freaking off race to demonstrate this to you. Crocodile 703
Hey everyone... long time lurker, first post So, anyways, right to the topic...
Ignoring tanks for a moment, I have been playing Mech TvP on and off since the patch before the BFH nerfs, but decided to hold off judgment whether or not it was viable, blah blah blah... And recently I got back into playing and decided to try it again.
Just a little background: I'm a Mid Masters Terran, so my experience is just random samples from Masters ranging from High to Mid Masters... Never played a GM Toss with this... My opponent in this game was a rank 26 (ish) Protoss. I wanted to post this replay because I want to facilitate discussion on this no-tank composition. Rather than focusing on the viability at GSL levels, I've seen pretty good success with this around the High Masters level. Not sure if this is on account to the rarity of this kind of build, so maybe the surprise factor got the best of them.
Ignoring the fact that he played... pretty awkwardly (1G 1Robo 2 more gates Expand, people still do this?) I let him max while I was max as well. And this was an almost exact harvester count (66 vs 69) battle so the army supply was generally the same. Although, he messed up BIG time on the final battle positioning, the supply count at the end of the fight was double.
So what's my opening and theory behind this? - Well, a while back there was a post on TvP Mech with Thor Hellion Ghost and Viking if needed, and that post stated that he opened 2Rax pressure into expand. However, due to Protosses being relatively good at defending this, I decided to try 1-1-1 3 Hellion Drop into Expand. Do damage or not, the goal is to stay alive against various pushes the Toss may throw against you. After that expand, get an Armory and 2 more Factories. At that point, stay alive, max on 3 bases.
So... it seems the past few posts have been worried about these Immortal all-ins and what not... and those usually hit... around 7:30-9min? By then, I have plenty of marines, bunkers, 1 siege tank (optional, get it if you want to feel extra safe) in my base. Adjust production based on the info from your drop. The only all-in I have died to was in a practice match with a friend who was also mid master protoss, and it was an awkward 2G 1Robo - 3 immortal, stalker, zealot, sentry bust. Generally, its an instant lose going against this. But I have survived 4 Gate, 4 Gate with Warp Prism in the back, Blink Stalkers (not all-in) and some weird immortal busts...
You want to max with PLENTY of thors, plenty of hellions, ghosts, a raven or two, vikings if needed, and the occasional banshee or two if you choose to follow up the hellion drop with more harass. Upgrade ONLY vehicle armor, since Thors generally, in 2-4 volleys, will kill any Protoss unit, minus immortals w/ shield, collosus, any of those high hp count units.
So here is where I shut up, because it feels like I've been rambling on forever. Check out the replay, and ask away!
PS: I was trollin' on my friends account, so this isn't my main.
On March 22 2012 09:29 Troxle wrote: I feel a lack of the Protoss side for this and as a Protoss I don't see mech work ever. I've had several Terran try mech on several different maps and Protoss blind counters it in standard Protoss versus Terran game play. The Mech death ball is very powerful when sieged, but not invincible. And even still, a Protoss won't let a Terran push out on the map if they keep tabs on the army. A good Protoss will expoit the forced splittin' of the Terran to defend. I've pushed INTO a Terran Siege Tank, Thor, Hellion, Raven, Banshee, Viking and Planetary defense with the Protoss death ball and CRUSHED the Terran army. Zealots tear through Siege Tanks and Thors like its nobodies business. Colossus decimate as well. Stalkers are the weak link, but if you watch most Protoss versus Terran at high levels, stalker counts have always been low. Charge Zealots and Colossus with a few Archons and High Templar for Psionic Storm is what most Protoss go for. The stalkers are used simply to clear Vikings and Medivacs. The Terran mech death ball is way to immobile. Zealots are way more beefy then marines, zerglins, banelings, roaches, and hydralisks which all crumble to siege tanks. I haven't even mentioned the Immortal that makes quick work of Siege Tanks like its nobodies business! Not only do they take squat for damage from a Siege Tank, they absolutely decimate Siege Tank after Siege Tank.
I'm not sayin' this cannot work. I'm just sayin' this is a very, very bad build and with this match up already highly in Protoss favor; I would not advice mech in the match up. There is a reason you don't see it in GSL or when you do it fails miserable. I think it was MarineKing who tried it in Code S and I forget who he was against, but he got destroyed (I might not even have the Terran correct, but it was just a free win for the Protoss). And that is one of the more optimal maps in my opinion (the map was Dual Sight).
Summary: Mech is blind countered by standard Protoss play. Even Marine Tank is bad (I can't even figure out how Puzzle lost to GuMiho last season...I think even I could have beaten GuMiho's Marine Tank, its just suboptimal versus Protoss). If you want to "mech" I'd suggest the 1-1-1 all-in be the closest thing you do. And more preferably the 1-1-2 as it is much harder for the Protoss to hold in my opinion (I just hate havin' to get a Stargate just to deal with the extra banshee production; the 1-1-2 is my worst nightmare in the Protoss versus Terran match up honestly).
Has anyone played around with mixing in Reapers with mech? Although the 50 gas is a turnoff, they can be insanely good at tech denies and getting rid of cannons; leaving bases free for Hellion follow-ups. If you open Tech-lab rax expand, you can get a quick reaper to scout and harass and then take 25/26 Factory. Of course, against air this build instantly loses, but if you can maintain good scouting and deny a proxy starport or react to a standard Protoss air transition it might work. In addition it sets up your infrastructure for ghosts mid-game. Reapers are incredible against zealots and sentries. They would be great for the 2 tank timing push because they could flank and surround a Protoss army with Hellions and Tanks pushing the front.
On March 22 2012 09:29 Troxle wrote: I feel a lack of the Protoss side for this and as a Protoss I don't see mech work ever. I've had several Terran try mech on several different maps and Protoss blind counters it in standard Protoss versus Terran game play. The Mech death ball is very powerful when sieged, but not invincible. And even still, a Protoss won't let a Terran push out on the map if they keep tabs on the army. A good Protoss will expoit the forced splittin' of the Terran to defend. I've pushed INTO a Terran Siege Tank, Thor, Hellion, Raven, Banshee, Viking and Planetary defense with the Protoss death ball and CRUSHED the Terran army. Zealots tear through Siege Tanks and Thors like its nobodies business. Colossus decimate as well. Stalkers are the weak link, but if you watch most Protoss versus Terran at high levels, stalker counts have always been low. Charge Zealots and Colossus with a few Archons and High Templar for Psionic Storm is what most Protoss go for. The stalkers are used simply to clear Vikings and Medivacs. The Terran mech death ball is way to immobile. Zealots are way more beefy then marines, zerglins, banelings, roaches, and hydralisks which all crumble to siege tanks. I haven't even mentioned the Immortal that makes quick work of Siege Tanks like its nobodies business! Not only do they take squat for damage from a Siege Tank, they absolutely decimate Siege Tank after Siege Tank.
I'm not sayin' this cannot work. I'm just sayin' this is a very, very bad build and with this match up already highly in Protoss favor; I would not advice mech in the match up. There is a reason you don't see it in GSL or when you do it fails miserable. I think it was MarineKing who tried it in Code S and I forget who he was against, but he got destroyed (I might not even have the Terran correct, but it was just a free win for the Protoss). And that is one of the more optimal maps in my opinion (the map was Dual Sight).
Summary: Mech is blind countered by standard Protoss play. Even Marine Tank is bad (I can't even figure out how Puzzle lost to GuMiho last season...I think even I could have beaten GuMiho's Marine Tank, its just suboptimal versus Protoss). If you want to "mech" I'd suggest the 1-1-1 all-in be the closest thing you do. And more preferably the 1-1-2 as it is much harder for the Protoss to hold in my opinion (I just hate havin' to get a Stargate just to deal with the extra banshee production; the 1-1-2 is my worst nightmare in the Protoss versus Terran match up honestly).
NOBODY IS ASKING IF MECH IS VIABLE. Nobody cares if you think mech is viable, nobody cares if you think Protoss blind counters mech with standard play. We are not discussing the viability of mech. Can you please please just read the thread and understand that we want to talk about HOW to mech, given that we're going to try it whether it's viable or not.
And by the way, Marineking did it in Code S and DESTROYED Genius. You're so misinformed and disturbingly ignorant of what's actually going on in this thread it's not even funny.
I have agreed with many of your previous posts, but not this one.
I know the title is "how" to mech, but surely, in the middle of this discussion, people will of course sooner or later discuss the viability of mech...they are connected..
What an absurd thread, how can you discuss a strategy without discussing its viability. The fact is mech sucks, and in fact that the player that plays mech the most (Goody) has completely given it up TvP.
If I made a thread about battlecruisers, of course the first question is how is it viable. I can't just be like, no I don't care if BC's are viable, I just want to talk about making them. Sure you can make the units, and yea you can even win games with mass BC's if the situation is right. But none of this has anything to do with its solidness as a strategy.
The thing is that there's nothing impressive about mech against P. Mech is essentially completely tuned to support bio against Z, because of the slow rate of fire + burst dmg that one shots low hp Z. You can kind of see how this is completely useless against P. Any fight in a position (both spatially and temporally) that mech can win, bio can win too.
The MKP game is an excellent demonstration of how poor mech is. With a significant army and econ advantage, the mech army could barely beat a gateway immortal army on open ground. The units just suck against P.
On March 23 2012 02:53 architecture wrote: What an absurd thread, how can you discuss a strategy without discussing its viability. The fact is mech sucks, and in fact that the player that plays mech the most (Goody) has completely given it up TvP.
If I made a thread about battlecruisers, of course the first question is how is it viable. I can't just be like, no I don't care if BC's are viable, I just want to talk about making them. Sure you can make the units, and yea you can even win games with mass BC's if the situation is right. But none of this has anything to do with its solidness as a strategy.
The thing is that there's nothing impressive about mech against P. Mech is essentially completely tuned to support bio against Z, because of the slow rate of fire + burst dmg that one shots low hp Z. You can kind of see how this is completely useless against P. Any fight in a position (both spatially and temporally) that mech can win, bio can win too.
The MKP game is an excellent demonstration of how poor mech is. With a significant army and econ advantage, the mech army could barely beat a gateway immortal army on open ground. The units just suck against P.
I completely disagree with the mindset that viability shouldn't be in the discussion. It's mostly that people like you come in and say the same nonesense we've seen and rebuked over and over again. If a 200/200 Mechanical BC Ghost army can compete with a 200/200 Protoss army, it is viable. It is completely childish to say that it isn't because a pro gamer doesn't do it. This is still a new game and new strategies won't be brought to light without discussion, rather than "stop trying, the pro gamers did." NO!
Bio play has just as many pitfalls IF NOT MORE than mech play. Bio is, frankly, fragile as shit. It melts under AOE. Terrans are not not not making the most of all the units available to them. HSMs are only now starting to be used; what would they do to a a Toss deathball? EMP + Tank is ruinous to a Protoss army. The evidence is right in front of you in the replays. It's being used in Master's to large successes. I can't stand you idiots just blindly naysaying based on pro gamers' playstyles.
On March 23 2012 02:53 architecture wrote: What an absurd thread, how can you discuss a strategy without discussing its viability. The fact is mech sucks, and in fact that the player that plays mech the most (Goody) has completely given it up TvP.
If I made a thread about battlecruisers, of course the first question is how is it viable. I can't just be like, no I don't care if BC's are viable, I just want to talk about making them. Sure you can make the units, and yea you can even win games with mass BC's if the situation is right. But none of this has anything to do with its solidness as a strategy.
The thing is that there's nothing impressive about mech against P. Mech is essentially completely tuned to support bio against Z, because of the slow rate of fire + burst dmg that one shots low hp Z. You can kind of see how this is completely useless against P. Any fight in a position (both spatially and temporally) that mech can win, bio can win too.
The MKP game is an excellent demonstration of how poor mech is. With a significant army and econ advantage, the mech army could barely beat a gateway immortal army on open ground. The units just suck against P.
Because you are hindering exploration, got nothing to lose and all to gain.
God don't be one of those who have said countless things are never going to be viable and then they become standard.
There's nothing to explore here. People have tried these compositions from day 1 of the beta, maybe you weren't here for that.
Get a friend, go to a custom map, and try out all the 200/200 compositions in fights. Fact is that mech barely breaks even in a straight up fight.
I don't understand why people are willing to discount the fact that the one pro, who has played thousands of games and hours with mech, more than anyone in this thread, has stopped using it TvP. And then you come here and claim that there's something he hasn't explored. What a fucking joke.
On March 23 2012 02:53 architecture wrote: What an absurd thread, how can you discuss a strategy without discussing its viability. The fact is mech sucks, and in fact that the player that plays mech the most (Goody) has completely given it up TvP.
If I made a thread about battlecruisers, of course the first question is how is it viable. I can't just be like, no I don't care if BC's are viable, I just want to talk about making them. Sure you can make the units, and yea you can even win games with mass BC's if the situation is right. But none of this has anything to do with its solidness as a strategy.
The thing is that there's nothing impressive about mech against P. Mech is essentially completely tuned to support bio against Z, because of the slow rate of fire + burst dmg that one shots low hp Z. You can kind of see how this is completely useless against P. Any fight in a position (both spatially and temporally) that mech can win, bio can win too.
The MKP game is an excellent demonstration of how poor mech is. With a significant army and econ advantage, the mech army could barely beat a gateway immortal army on open ground. The units just suck against P.
I completely disagree with the mindset that viability shouldn't be in the discussion. It's mostly that people like you come in and say the same nonesense we've seen and rebuked over and over again. If a 200/200 Mechanical BC Ghost army can compete with a 200/200 Protoss army, it is viable. It is completely childish to say that it isn't because a pro gamer doesn't do it. This is still a new game and new strategies won't be brought to light without discussion, rather than "stop trying, the pro gamers did." NO!
Bio play has just as many pitfalls IF NOT MORE than mech play. Bio is, frankly, fragile as shit. It melts under AOE. Terrans are not not not making the most of all the units available to them. HSMs are only now starting to be used; what would they do to a a Toss deathball? EMP + Tank is ruinous to a Protoss army. The evidence is right in front of you in the replays. It's being used in Master's to large successes. I can't stand you idiots just blindly naysaying based on pro gamers' playstyles.
the replays from 1 average master player league can prove that mech is viable , are you serious ? lol.
On March 23 2012 03:47 architecture wrote: There's nothing to explore here. People have tried these compositions from day 1 of the beta, maybe you weren't here for that.
Get a friend, go to a custom map, and try out all the 200/200 compositions in fights. Fact is that mech barely breaks even in a straight up fight.
I don't understand why people are willing to discount the fact that the one pro, who has played thousands of games and hours with mech, more than anyone in this thread, has stopped using it TvP. And then you come here and claim that there's something he hasn't explored. What a fucking joke.
Would you be so kind and watch a single replay of Lyyna that is above 30 minutes where he absolutely owns 3/3/3 Protoss army composed of Chargelots/Immortals/Archons/Mothership and losing barely 50-60 supply befor posting such crap? Please, this would be so helpful..
On March 23 2012 02:53 architecture wrote: What an absurd thread, how can you discuss a strategy without discussing its viability. The fact is mech sucks, and in fact that the player that plays mech the most (Goody) has completely given it up TvP.
If I made a thread about battlecruisers, of course the first question is how is it viable. I can't just be like, no I don't care if BC's are viable, I just want to talk about making them. Sure you can make the units, and yea you can even win games with mass BC's if the situation is right. But none of this has anything to do with its solidness as a strategy.
The thing is that there's nothing impressive about mech against P. Mech is essentially completely tuned to support bio against Z, because of the slow rate of fire + burst dmg that one shots low hp Z. You can kind of see how this is completely useless against P. Any fight in a position (both spatially and temporally) that mech can win, bio can win too.
The MKP game is an excellent demonstration of how poor mech is. With a significant army and econ advantage, the mech army could barely beat a gateway immortal army on open ground. The units just suck against P.
I completely disagree with the mindset that viability shouldn't be in the discussion. It's mostly that people like you come in and say the same nonesense we've seen and rebuked over and over again. If a 200/200 Mechanical BC Ghost army can compete with a 200/200 Protoss army, it is viable. It is completely childish to say that it isn't because a pro gamer doesn't do it. This is still a new game and new strategies won't be brought to light without discussion, rather than "stop trying, the pro gamers did." NO!
Bio play has just as many pitfalls IF NOT MORE than mech play. Bio is, frankly, fragile as shit. It melts under AOE. Terrans are not not not making the most of all the units available to them. HSMs are only now starting to be used; what would they do to a a Toss deathball? EMP + Tank is ruinous to a Protoss army. The evidence is right in front of you in the replays. It's being used in Master's to large successes. I can't stand you idiots just blindly naysaying based on pro gamers' playstyles.
the replays from 1 average master player league can prove that mech is viable , are you serious ? lol.
lol, you know what.. Get out of here and go play your bio and whine how hard the game is and how hard it is to kill Protoss after 15 min mark. Don't even think about watching those replays here and see how effective late-game Terran army can be, really..
On March 22 2012 09:29 Troxle wrote: I feel a lack of the Protoss side for this and as a Protoss I don't see mech work ever. I've had several Terran try mech on several different maps and Protoss blind counters it in standard Protoss versus Terran game play. The Mech death ball is very powerful when sieged, but not invincible. And even still, a Protoss won't let a Terran push out on the map if they keep tabs on the army. A good Protoss will expoit the forced splittin' of the Terran to defend. I've pushed INTO a Terran Siege Tank, Thor, Hellion, Raven, Banshee, Viking and Planetary defense with the Protoss death ball and CRUSHED the Terran army. Zealots tear through Siege Tanks and Thors like its nobodies business. Colossus decimate as well. Stalkers are the weak link, but if you watch most Protoss versus Terran at high levels, stalker counts have always been low. Charge Zealots and Colossus with a few Archons and High Templar for Psionic Storm is what most Protoss go for. The stalkers are used simply to clear Vikings and Medivacs. The Terran mech death ball is way to immobile. Zealots are way more beefy then marines, zerglins, banelings, roaches, and hydralisks which all crumble to siege tanks. I haven't even mentioned the Immortal that makes quick work of Siege Tanks like its nobodies business! Not only do they take squat for damage from a Siege Tank, they absolutely decimate Siege Tank after Siege Tank.
I'm not sayin' this cannot work. I'm just sayin' this is a very, very bad build and with this match up already highly in Protoss favor; I would not advice mech in the match up. There is a reason you don't see it in GSL or when you do it fails miserable. I think it was MarineKing who tried it in Code S and I forget who he was against, but he got destroyed (I might not even have the Terran correct, but it was just a free win for the Protoss). And that is one of the more optimal maps in my opinion (the map was Dual Sight).
Summary: Mech is blind countered by standard Protoss play. Even Marine Tank is bad (I can't even figure out how Puzzle lost to GuMiho last season...I think even I could have beaten GuMiho's Marine Tank, its just suboptimal versus Protoss). If you want to "mech" I'd suggest the 1-1-1 all-in be the closest thing you do. And more preferably the 1-1-2 as it is much harder for the Protoss to hold in my opinion (I just hate havin' to get a Stargate just to deal with the extra banshee production; the 1-1-2 is my worst nightmare in the Protoss versus Terran match up honestly).
NOBODY IS ASKING IF MECH IS VIABLE. Nobody cares if you think mech is viable, nobody cares if you think Protoss blind counters mech with standard play. We are not discussing the viability of mech. Can you please please just read the thread and understand that we want to talk about HOW to mech, given that we're going to try it whether it's viable or not.
And by the way, Marineking did it in Code S and DESTROYED Genius. You're so misinformed and disturbingly ignorant of what's actually going on in this thread it's not even funny.
I have agreed with many of your previous posts, but not this one.
I know the title is "how" to mech, but surely, in the middle of this discussion, people will of course sooner or later discuss the viability of mech...they are connected..
Agreed. The discussion is certainly bound to touch on the viability of mech and I agree with the Protoss player except for marine/tank, which can be pretty strong.
On March 22 2012 09:29 Troxle wrote: I feel a lack of the Protoss side for this and as a Protoss I don't see mech work ever. I've had several Terran try mech on several different maps and Protoss blind counters it in standard Protoss versus Terran game play. The Mech death ball is very powerful when sieged, but not invincible. And even still, a Protoss won't let a Terran push out on the map if they keep tabs on the army. A good Protoss will expoit the forced splittin' of the Terran to defend. I've pushed INTO a Terran Siege Tank, Thor, Hellion, Raven, Banshee, Viking and Planetary defense with the Protoss death ball and CRUSHED the Terran army. Zealots tear through Siege Tanks and Thors like its nobodies business. Colossus decimate as well. Stalkers are the weak link, but if you watch most Protoss versus Terran at high levels, stalker counts have always been low. Charge Zealots and Colossus with a few Archons and High Templar for Psionic Storm is what most Protoss go for. The stalkers are used simply to clear Vikings and Medivacs. The Terran mech death ball is way to immobile. Zealots are way more beefy then marines, zerglins, banelings, roaches, and hydralisks which all crumble to siege tanks. I haven't even mentioned the Immortal that makes quick work of Siege Tanks like its nobodies business! Not only do they take squat for damage from a Siege Tank, they absolutely decimate Siege Tank after Siege Tank.
I'm not sayin' this cannot work. I'm just sayin' this is a very, very bad build and with this match up already highly in Protoss favor; I would not advice mech in the match up. There is a reason you don't see it in GSL or when you do it fails miserable. I think it was MarineKing who tried it in Code S and I forget who he was against, but he got destroyed (I might not even have the Terran correct, but it was just a free win for the Protoss). And that is one of the more optimal maps in my opinion (the map was Dual Sight).
Summary: Mech is blind countered by standard Protoss play. Even Marine Tank is bad (I can't even figure out how Puzzle lost to GuMiho last season...I think even I could have beaten GuMiho's Marine Tank, its just suboptimal versus Protoss). If you want to "mech" I'd suggest the 1-1-1 all-in be the closest thing you do. And more preferably the 1-1-2 as it is much harder for the Protoss to hold in my opinion (I just hate havin' to get a Stargate just to deal with the extra banshee production; the 1-1-2 is my worst nightmare in the Protoss versus Terran match up honestly).
NOBODY IS ASKING IF MECH IS VIABLE. Nobody cares if you think mech is viable, nobody cares if you think Protoss blind counters mech with standard play. We are not discussing the viability of mech. Can you please please just read the thread and understand that we want to talk about HOW to mech, given that we're going to try it whether it's viable or not.
And by the way, Marineking did it in Code S and DESTROYED Genius. You're so misinformed and disturbingly ignorant of what's actually going on in this thread it's not even funny.
I have agreed with many of your previous posts, but not this one.
I know the title is "how" to mech, but surely, in the middle of this discussion, people will of course sooner or later discuss the viability of mech...they are connected..
Agreed. The discussion is certainly bound to touch on the viability of mech and I agree with the Protoss player except for marine/tank, which can be pretty strong.
Well, yes.. But if people start talking like "it's not viable, nobody does that, etc.." and start flooding this thread with reasons why we should't even try - this is exactly what ruins any further experimenting and prooving that it of course IS viable. Might be harder/easer, might not just be the style pro players with high APM choose, because they want to be aggresive and exploit every weakness opponent makes, which they certainly can with bio and so on..
While not specific to TvP, does anyone have an idea of the efficacy of mech in team games? I've been practicing TvP mech, as well as mech in general, and it would seem that it's a viable option in every facet of the game, just curious if anyone has experience in the area of a mid-late game team mech situation (can make a post/new thread if too OT).
On March 23 2012 02:53 architecture wrote: What an absurd thread, how can you discuss a strategy without discussing its viability. The fact is mech sucks, and in fact that the player that plays mech the most (Goody) has completely given it up TvP.
If I made a thread about battlecruisers, of course the first question is how is it viable. I can't just be like, no I don't care if BC's are viable, I just want to talk about making them. Sure you can make the units, and yea you can even win games with mass BC's if the situation is right. But none of this has anything to do with its solidness as a strategy.
The thing is that there's nothing impressive about mech against P. Mech is essentially completely tuned to support bio against Z, because of the slow rate of fire + burst dmg that one shots low hp Z. You can kind of see how this is completely useless against P. Any fight in a position (both spatially and temporally) that mech can win, bio can win too.
The MKP game is an excellent demonstration of how poor mech is. With a significant army and econ advantage, the mech army could barely beat a gateway immortal army on open ground. The units just suck against P.
Also for people saying hellions suck vs chargelots... LOL. They only died quickly in MKP vs Genius because he sieged up in a bad position where his army got split in 3 FFs and he didn't kite with the hellions neither! It's like the equivalent of not splitting marines vs banelings. They suck if you just let them sit there but if you kite and split they counter (at least cost-wise) the other unit. I can't believe how many people say that hellions do not counter chargelots. It is really quite sad. Go try it out in a unit tester. BFH 0-0 absolutely RAPE 3-3-3 chargelots as long as you have space to kite. That's 0-0 vs 3-3-3. The larger the numbers, the more it favors the BFH. Suddenly the Chargelot mineral sink isn't quite useful anymore. And it's much much easier than kiting with MM while having to dodge/split vs storms and shit, and where a miscmicro is more dangerous (like there being 1 HT with a storm left and storming your whole bio army, etc.)
Not to mention it is MUCH easier to macro with Mech. No more of that 4aaaaaaddddddddddgg5vvdd shit during your battles. 4gg5eeeeeessst6vvvv, and about 2 times less frequently. So you're only spending 1/3 the keystrokes.
Mech does and will become more common especially in HotS (hopefully).
Remember how mech wasn't viable TvZ?
Remember how mech wasn't viable TvT?
hah! just cus progamers don't do it doesn't mean it doesn't work -- it probably is more that they haven't figured it out yet and/or haven't decided to commit to spending time trying something new out where, if they fail, they may lose precious practice time.
On March 22 2012 07:15 MarcH wrote: So having skimmed through the thread I haven't seen much mention on maps in correlation to Mech TvP as whenever I have tried to Mech vs a P I have only really felt comfortable on 3 maps (though I am not the best player), Those being Metalopolis, Xel,Naga ( i know not relay relevant anymore) and Antiga.
I am going to look at replays in a moment but I wanted to ask what maps do people veto and how do you go about limiting the mobility of a Protoss as the times I have really felt Mech is good is when I'm not being agressive with my army but positioning myself in either a Threatening position forcing the P to react or a very good defensive position that prevents the Protoss from expanding while I am able to take additional bases (metal is great for this).
Also I was wondering on the best ways to constrict space on more open maps as Tanks while good aren't great in small numbers and Planetary's aren't great unsupported is it something you try to do or Is it something that you just ignore as their are bigger worries (warp prism and blink being the biggest).
I'm not in masters, so I know anything I say about strategy is null, but particularly on Entombed valley and Cloud Kingdom I've found incorporating tanks mid game has worked incredibly well. The idea is to not ignore ur factory, as in MMM, and use it to produce tanks.
On Entombed Valley I open 2 rax and push with 1 marauder/9 marines. Considering most protoss FE, you can pressure with 2rax and expand yourself. Then continue upgrading bio and getting a starport, but also producing tanks. My mid-game push is with 2 or 3 tanks, marines, marauders, +1, and two medivacs. What you do is fill one medivac with marines and spread them out on the ledge of the natural while sieging up on the bottom with the rest of the bio. If the toss abandons the natural, you can take out all the probes and go to the main with ur marines and medivac, but usually they send their army to the top, losing all the zealots and usually the rest of their army (usually with 2 immortals).
On Cloud Kingdom I've found tanks work well all game, especially for pressure. Same build, but if you scout mass immortals against your one factory tank, you can use your first starport for banshee production. I usually work off of 2 starports every TvP unless I see triple robo or something. Once you siege up the low ground of their nat/third, you can basically do whatever you want. I like again to drop the top and force engagements, where usually in a 1-a toss army will lose at least all the zealots and some sentries to tank fire.
On March 23 2012 04:26 Mortal wrote: While not specific to TvP, does anyone have an idea of the efficacy of mech in team games? I've been practicing TvP mech, as well as mech in general, and it would seem that it's a viable option in every facet of the game, just curious if anyone has experience in the area of a mid-late game team mech situation (can make a post/new thread if too OT).
I mech every team games. In 3v3 and 4v4, and it's pretty solid when you secure your 3rd. You don't even need AA and once you get maxed, you're like in godmode.
On March 22 2012 09:29 Troxle wrote: I feel a lack of the Protoss side for this and as a Protoss I don't see mech work ever. I've had several Terran try mech on several different maps and Protoss blind counters it in standard Protoss versus Terran game play. The Mech death ball is very powerful when sieged, but not invincible. And even still, a Protoss won't let a Terran push out on the map if they keep tabs on the army. A good Protoss will expoit the forced splittin' of the Terran to defend. I've pushed INTO a Terran Siege Tank, Thor, Hellion, Raven, Banshee, Viking and Planetary defense with the Protoss death ball and CRUSHED the Terran army. Zealots tear through Siege Tanks and Thors like its nobodies business. Colossus decimate as well. Stalkers are the weak link, but if you watch most Protoss versus Terran at high levels, stalker counts have always been low. Charge Zealots and Colossus with a few Archons and High Templar for Psionic Storm is what most Protoss go for. The stalkers are used simply to clear Vikings and Medivacs. The Terran mech death ball is way to immobile. Zealots are way more beefy then marines, zerglins, banelings, roaches, and hydralisks which all crumble to siege tanks. I haven't even mentioned the Immortal that makes quick work of Siege Tanks like its nobodies business! Not only do they take squat for damage from a Siege Tank, they absolutely decimate Siege Tank after Siege Tank.
I'm not sayin' this cannot work. I'm just sayin' this is a very, very bad build and with this match up already highly in Protoss favor; I would not advice mech in the match up. There is a reason you don't see it in GSL or when you do it fails miserable. I think it was MarineKing who tried it in Code S and I forget who he was against, but he got destroyed (I might not even have the Terran correct, but it was just a free win for the Protoss). And that is one of the more optimal maps in my opinion (the map was Dual Sight).
Summary: Mech is blind countered by standard Protoss play. Even Marine Tank is bad (I can't even figure out how Puzzle lost to GuMiho last season...I think even I could have beaten GuMiho's Marine Tank, its just suboptimal versus Protoss). If you want to "mech" I'd suggest the 1-1-1 all-in be the closest thing you do. And more preferably the 1-1-2 as it is much harder for the Protoss to hold in my opinion (I just hate havin' to get a Stargate just to deal with the extra banshee production; the 1-1-2 is my worst nightmare in the Protoss versus Terran match up honestly).
NOBODY IS ASKING IF MECH IS VIABLE. Nobody cares if you think mech is viable, nobody cares if you think Protoss blind counters mech with standard play. We are not discussing the viability of mech. Can you please please just read the thread and understand that we want to talk about HOW to mech, given that we're going to try it whether it's viable or not.
And by the way, Marineking did it in Code S and DESTROYED Genius. You're so misinformed and disturbingly ignorant of what's actually going on in this thread it's not even funny.
I have agreed with many of your previous posts, but not this one.
I know the title is "how" to mech, but surely, in the middle of this discussion, people will of course sooner or later discuss the viability of mech...they are connected..
Agreed. The discussion is certainly bound to touch on the viability of mech and I agree with the Protoss player except for marine/tank, which can be pretty strong.
Well, yes.. But if people start talking like "it's not viable, nobody does that, etc.." and start flooding this thread with reasons why we should't even try - this is exactly what ruins any further experimenting and prooving that it of course IS viable. Might be harder/easer, might not just be the style pro players with high APM choose, because they want to be aggresive and exploit every weakness opponent makes, which they certainly can with bio and so on..
yup; remember when people where considering Mech vs Zerg not really viable? Then Nada and MVP picked it up and now DeMuslim can beat NesTea with it. In a tournament game on the same server.
Has anyone got replays of mech being played well? I would love to see how it is developing (as a protoss player). Thanks in advance if anyone gets some!
On March 23 2012 03:47 architecture wrote: Get a friend, go to a custom map, and try out all the 200/200 compositions in fights. Fact is that mech barely breaks even in a straight up fight. .
I guess that, for you, the only possible mech army is 200 supp of siege tanks and hellions,without any air, ghost, thors,or statics defense? Anyway, i really like your 'get a friend' argument. I mech since one and an half year,and i nearly NEVER lost lategame with mech. The only thing i do sometimes loose to in lategame is huge carriers switch (with like 5 stargates) unscouted on some bigs maps where he hides his sg and i get too lazy to scout.
Also, to all people talking about goody's play : he was playing ONE specific style of mech, relying a lot of BFH and really few on ghosts. So immortal buff and BFH nerf basically killed it. But there is a lots of way to mech, in fact more than bio
Guys, I've been trying Mech in Master league. I have replays. No Ghosts, and my opponents didn't respond SUPER well, but I have been getting better at it. The first one is my first ever attempt, the latest one is a game I just played where I am feeling much more comfortable with the style. So far I've won 4/6 games, and the ones I lost I made really silly mistakes that I learned from. For example one game I didn't use sensor towers *facepalm*
I'm finding success with careful turtling while harassing while I build up a heavily upgraded Tank/Thor/Viking/Banshee/BC/Raven/BFH ball. That means every choke has Orbitals or Planetaries , my entire side of the map is covered by Sensor Towers, turrets at every base, and a bunch of Barracks floating around for mobile choke point creation. Also, sacrifice SCVs later in the game to make your maxed army stronger. It's so fun to watch a Protoss who is afraid to engage MY army for once, and then also to see that Protoss army get ROFLSTOMPED as you force them to engage!
On March 23 2012 03:47 architecture wrote: There's nothing to explore here. People have tried these compositions from day 1 of the beta, maybe you weren't here for that.
Get a friend, go to a custom map, and try out all the 200/200 compositions in fights. Fact is that mech barely breaks even in a straight up fight.
I don't understand why people are willing to discount the fact that the one pro, who has played thousands of games and hours with mech, more than anyone in this thread, has stopped using it TvP. And then you come here and claim that there's something he hasn't explored. What a fucking joke.
Do you really have nothing better to do? You're arguing on an internet forum with people who will disagree with you no matter what you say, over a point you honestly shouldn't care that much about, which is whether or not OTHER PEOPLE try a strategy in a video game. Go away you angry nerd.
By the way I have 4 examples of Mech armies taking out Protoss armies in a maxed situation posted above. Check them out.
On March 23 2012 03:47 architecture wrote: There's nothing to explore here. People have tried these compositions from day 1 of the beta, maybe you weren't here for that.
Get a friend, go to a custom map, and try out all the 200/200 compositions in fights. Fact is that mech barely breaks even in a straight up fight.
I don't understand why people are willing to discount the fact that the one pro, who has played thousands of games and hours with mech, more than anyone in this thread, has stopped using it TvP. And then you come here and claim that there's something he hasn't explored. What a fucking joke.
Do you really have nothing better to do? You're arguing on an internet forum with people who will disagree with you no matter what you say, over a point you honestly shouldn't care that much about, which is whether or not OTHER PEOPLE try a strategy in a video game. Go away you angry nerd.
By the way I have 4 examples of Mech armies taking out Protoss armies in a maxed situation posted above. Check them out.
lol @ game vs potato, like main fight, 5 random 3/3 Thors just sitting out of battle and still owning hard.. Seriously, it's silly, how stupid Master Protoss players look when they can't abuse their late-game deathball vs bio.. :DD
Ha! They took out like 20 zealots and a bunch of stalkers before he retreated ffs. 30 supply of Bio would've gotten raped by those units. I'm very proud of that game- did you see me build rax in front of my army when I sieged up his 4th base? I felt so clever when I did that.
On March 23 2012 09:35 crocodile wrote: Ha! They took out like 20 zealots and a bunch of stalkers before he retreated ffs. 30 supply of Bio would've gotten raped by those units. I'm very proud of that game- did you see me build rax in front of my army when I sieged up his 4th base? I felt so clever when I did that.
Ye, that was cool.. But to be completly honest I don't think it was even necessary.. More like overkill with those raxes. :D I think it's ok though to block like 1 or 2 entrances during the most dangerous stages of the game - like before you take your 3/4th.. Thors with +3 armor are so durable against Zealots, it's funny to see them just die only to bring 1 Thor to half health.
I think we need some testing against more competent Protosses however. I couldn't belive those guys were Masters. Don't get me wrong, you played well and patiently, but it really is funny, how desperate those guys looked.
As an enthusiatic Mech player I was and still am really hopeful to work on a Mech build vs P that I could use as my standard ladder build.
Looking at the first batch of replays from Lyyna left me completely unconvinced. The theme of the replays was basically macro into BCs and take a fourth base, then take a nap on your keyboard while the Protoss randomly attacks the (surprisingly) undefeatable deathball, then rinse and repeat for the extension of 30+ minutes. I literally got bored watching those games and had me thinking that if that was the way to play Mech vs P then it isn't worth it at all. Protoss wasn't even doing warp prism drops, harassing with Void Rays, or even doing two-pronged attacks. So it was boring, and skeptical at best.
Then I look at Croc's replay and all I have to say is: Thank you for being realistic about the build. I'm glad you didn't sit on your ass for 30+ minutes when you had perfect opportunities to take out expansions and push forward. This demands the Protoss to react to your army and not allow him to set up harassment drops because without the full supply of his army, he has no chance of winning. You revitalized my desire to go Mech.
I really like the use of Barracks too. I've done that myself in the past, especially in open maps like Tal'darim Altar to lower the effectiveness of being surrounded. Only problem I see with the build is it has yet to be put up against a nimble style like gateway play.
On March 23 2012 04:26 Mortal wrote: While not specific to TvP, does anyone have an idea of the efficacy of mech in team games? I've been practicing TvP mech, as well as mech in general, and it would seem that it's a viable option in every facet of the game, just curious if anyone has experience in the area of a mid-late game team mech situation (can make a post/new thread if too OT).
Been some time since I last played team games, but in 2v2 mech is in my opinion very good. I Play with two different protosses, so my mech army get loads of protection from their insane deathball, and tanks + colo + storm = win win win.
On March 23 2012 18:08 HeroMystic wrote: As an enthusiatic Mech player I was and still am really hopeful to work on a Mech build vs P that I could use as my standard ladder build.
Looking at the first batch of replays from Lyyna left me completely unconvinced. The theme of the replays was basically macro into BCs and take a fourth base, then take a nap on your keyboard while the Protoss randomly attacks the (surprisingly) undefeatable deathball, then rinse and repeat for the extension of 30+ minutes. I literally got bored watching those games and had me thinking that if that was the way to play Mech vs P then it isn't worth it at all. Protoss wasn't even doing warp prism drops, harassing with Void Rays, or even doing two-pronged attacks. So it was boring, and skeptical at best.
Then I look at Croc's replay and all I have to say is: Thank you for being realistic about the build. I'm glad you didn't sit on your ass for 30+ minutes when you had perfect opportunities to take out expansions and push forward. This demands the Protoss to react to your army and not allow him to set up harassment drops because without the full supply of his army, he has no chance of winning. You revitalized my desire to go Mech.
I really like the use of Barracks too. I've done that myself in the past, especially in open maps like Tal'darim Altar to lower the effectiveness of being surrounded. Only problem I see with the build is it has yet to be put up against a nimble style like gateway play.
I see your point. The difference here is - Do you want to just win games at +/- master level? If your answer is yes, then you can play like Lyyna. Very safe, turtling style macroing up to unbeateable Deathball and just win.. Isn't that what Protoss actually do nowadays btw? Or, you can take on a mech build and tweak it, play it aggresively or passively at times depending on what you see. You might exploit weaknesses of your opponent, harass, do hellion drops, snipe pylons with cloaked banshee all around the map, etc.. The problem with mech for me is that if I don't play this super safe turtle 30min+ game I pretty often lose to some random mistake just for the sake of what Protoss is capable (1a into unsieged tanks is game over no matter how well you play first 15mins.) - chronoboosted upgrades, warpin remax on zealots, fast switch to voids, cliff blink/collosus base trade, etc.. On the other hand when the game goes super late, like in those replays Lyyna postated, you just win, period..
On March 23 2012 04:26 Mortal wrote: While not specific to TvP, does anyone have an idea of the efficacy of mech in team games? I've been practicing TvP mech, as well as mech in general, and it would seem that it's a viable option in every facet of the game, just curious if anyone has experience in the area of a mid-late game team mech situation (can make a post/new thread if too OT).
Been some time since I last played team games, but in 2v2 mech is in my opinion very good. I Play with two different protosses, so my mech army get loads of protection from their insane deathball, and tanks + colo + storm = win win win.
Exactly. I also play mech with my Protoss buddy and it's insane how hard it is to take on Mech/Protoss deathball.. Basically you can only lose to early game shenenigans or some massive Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor play.. Or the same thing you are doing. :D I feel like every time we lose it's our mistake rather that opponents playing good.
Because we have less ressource both player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its more hard for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress are more strong and its help to terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
Because we have less ressource both player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its more hard for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress are more strong and its help to terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
Its like this.
Hey guys ! have you played the new 6m2g map.?
Because we have less resource boths player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its harder for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress stronger and it helps terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
Because we have less ressource both player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its more hard for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress are more strong and its help to terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
Its like this.
Hey guys ! have you played the new 6m2g map.?
Because we have less resource boths player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its harder for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress stronger and it helps terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
Thanks mister Grammar Nazi, now let's stick to the point, ok ?
You should be aware that a lot of people here are not native speaker, right ?
On March 23 2012 18:08 HeroMystic wrote: As an enthusiatic Mech player I was and still am really hopeful to work on a Mech build vs P that I could use as my standard ladder build.
Looking at the first batch of replays from Lyyna left me completely unconvinced. The theme of the replays was basically macro into BCs and take a fourth base, then take a nap on your keyboard while the Protoss randomly attacks the (surprisingly) undefeatable deathball, then rinse and repeat for the extension of 30+ minutes. I literally got bored watching those games and had me thinking that if that was the way to play Mech vs P then it isn't worth it at all. Protoss wasn't even doing warp prism drops, harassing with Void Rays, or even doing two-pronged attacks. So it was boring, and skeptical at best.
Then I look at Croc's replay and all I have to say is: Thank you for being realistic about the build. I'm glad you didn't sit on your ass for 30+ minutes when you had perfect opportunities to take out expansions and push forward. This demands the Protoss to react to your army and not allow him to set up harassment drops because without the full supply of his army, he has no chance of winning. You revitalized my desire to go Mech.
I really like the use of Barracks too. I've done that myself in the past, especially in open maps like Tal'darim Altar to lower the effectiveness of being surrounded. Only problem I see with the build is it has yet to be put up against a nimble style like gateway play.
Thank you so much!! It makes me very happy to hear you liked my games and that I made you want to go mech <3
And trust me, I didn't move out till I was sure it was a safe move to do so. At that point I was fairly certain my army was strong enough to take his on, and I knew I could alter the environment we engaged in by building barracks. Also, scanning his army constantly whenever I'm in a remotely vulnerable position is absolutely vital.
The two tricks that made Mech work for me are 1. Turtle with tons of Sensor Towers, Turrets at every base, and Barracks/Orbitals at every major choke. 2. Harass constantly with your Banshees and Hellions. I'm actually thinking of incorporating an early hellion drop before the banshees in my opener so that I have a medivac for dropping hellions all game.
@Everlong I am in high master league as well as Lyyna.
Because we have less ressource both player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its more hard for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress are more strong and its help to terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
Its like this.
Hey guys ! have you played the new 6m2g map.?
Because we have less resource boths player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its harder for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress stronger and it helps terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
If that's all you have to say about Mech TVP, then you should really think deeply if this is the right community for you.
Because we have less ressource both player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its more hard for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress are more strong and its help to terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
Its like this.
Hey guys ! have you played the new 6m2g map.?
Because we have less resource boths player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its harder for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress stronger and it helps terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
If that's all you have to say about Mech TVP, then you should really think deeply if this is the right community for you.
This Gyro_SC2 guy is a bit of a joke in this thread, don't worry about it.
There is a korean mech player who beat slayers_brown (though it was more cus he defended a void proxy well, but still) His name:뽀통령 Old name: 파동몬
There is someone I know komprezzor who is top masters on KR and also plays mech on it, and he showed me some interesting but solid builds.
MarineKingPrime used 뽀통령's build vs MC and beat him. No wonder he used a similar build vs Genius in the GSL, though it hit earlier (not sure why? Did he scout something that made him change? I can not figure this out. If someone can analyze and find out... that would be cool if you can share!) and with only 2 added reactor factories instead of 3 like in the replay where he used it vs MC here http://www.sc2replays.eu/show-replay-14693-0-ogsmc_p_-vs-marineking_t.html
Edit: 뽀통령 usually (always?) got a third base (sometimes hidden just for minerals, like on xel'naga -- though he does it a lot so perhaps it's not hidden, but rather a strategic position) with his build, so that's why he got 3 reactor factories instead of 2. MKP did not; he teched up and then took a later third, seeing the protoss couldn't take a third anyways, and guessing from MKP's choice it is more important to tech to make sure he can't hard counter your army (like get ghosts for immortals) than it is to have a bigger econ (having a better composition is more efficient than having 50% more econ)
This way of meching looks the most promising, fun and flexible to me. Looks safe, and does something that 99% of mech and mech wana be styles do not: they offer attack timings and superb map control. Hope to see more games from 뽀통령 (only seen one) and MKP.
http://www.playxp.com/sc2/terran/view.php?article_id=3445939&search=3&search_pos=&q= (not sure if this poster is gorapadong himself or just a mech lover; his other posts seem to be all about mech as well. Too bad I can't read korean though. There is a fucking guide in korean for this mech build but I can't read it T_T all that glorious information... someone please translate??? :D)
Click on the XXXXXXXXX.SC2Replay names to download
There are a couple more you can find on that sc2 replay eu website that isn't in this pack and are a bit newer.
Also that is why MKP said "gorapadong" vs MC and MC made a crying face haha. So it seems clear that MC was definitely surprised by that kind of build, even though he may have known about gorapadong.
In other words? That kind of mech build is a great way to throw off your opponent and, if not, you can still transition well into the mid and late game. You get a shit load of hellions and can keep throwing them at your opponent, demonstrated by both gorapadong and MKP.
Edit:
OMG I WAS LOOKING FOR A TvP MECH GUIDE ON PLAYXP that i found back then (written within a few months?) I couldn't find it, but I found this new replay pack of mech! there's like 5-10 replays! Idk how good the players are but I'm guessing masters +
I watched the first 3 replays. Their APMs are about 90. Doesn't seem they are high masters nor GM on KR. Maybe only mid masters ish on NA, low master or high diamond on KR?
Maybe I'm wrong though, and they are high leveled.
On March 24 2012 06:37 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I found out his name is gorapadong (idk if that is his old name, or new name, or real name, etc. etc., maybe it is a nickname like mech king?)
http://www.playxp.com/sc2/terran/view.php?article_id=3445939&search=3&search_pos=&q= (not sure if this poster is gorapadong himself or just a mech lover; his other posts seem to be all about mech as well. Too bad I can't read korean though. There is a fucking guide in korean for this mech build but I can't read it T_T all that glorious information... someone please translate??? :D)
Click on the XXXXXXXXX.SC2Replay names to download
There are a couple more you can find on that sc2 replay eu website that isn't in this pack and are a bit newer.
Also that is why MKP said "gorapadong" vs MC and MC made a crying face haha. So it seems clear that MC was definitely surprised by that kind of build, even though he may have known about gorapadong.
In other words? That kind of mech build is a great way to throw off your opponent and, if not, you can still transition well into the mid and late game. You get a shit load of hellions and can keep throwing them at your opponent, demonstrated by both gorapadong and MKP.
Edit:
OMG I WAS LOOKING FOR A TvP MECH GUIDE ON PLAYXP that i found back then (written within a few months?) I couldn't find it, but I found this new replay pack of mech! there's like 5-10 replays! Idk how good the players are but I'm guessing masters +
On March 24 2012 07:08 Lyyna wrote: This is what mech is actually . . an underground movement. and saying u're meching instantly make you a bad player x)
Don't forget the classic 'your opponents were bad, it wouldn't have worked against someone good' cop out.
Because we have less ressource both player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its more hard for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress are more strong and its help to terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
Its like this.
Hey guys ! have you played the new 6m2g map.?
Because we have less resource boths player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its harder for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress stronger and it helps terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
If that's all you have to say about Mech TVP, then you should really think deeply if this is the right community for you.
This Gyro_SC2 guy is a bit of a joke in this thread, don't worry about it.
In the midgame Lyyna makes a lot of thors to be safe again some protoss timing. (having thors make him turtle) Crocodile in the other hand do more marine, hellion and banshee and harass. His harass denied potentiel toss timing at some point. (but its more risky, but more aggressif)
Crocodile uses more static defence and I like it : barrack wall and planetary fortress...
In midgame Lyyna got his BC faster but crocodile makes BC later and make mass banshee instead. Having a lot of bashee give him more harass potentiel.
In lategame Lyyna use more units: like the ghost, raven. Crocodile stick with BC+banshee+tank+thors+hellion
On March 24 2012 06:37 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I found out his name is gorapadong (idk if that is his old name, or new name, or real name, etc. etc., maybe it is a nickname like mech king?)
http://www.playxp.com/sc2/terran/view.php?article_id=3445939&search=3&search_pos=&q= (not sure if this poster is gorapadong himself or just a mech lover; his other posts seem to be all about mech as well. Too bad I can't read korean though. There is a fucking guide in korean for this mech build but I can't read it T_T all that glorious information... someone please translate??? :D)
Click on the XXXXXXXXX.SC2Replay names to download
There are a couple more you can find on that sc2 replay eu website that isn't in this pack and are a bit newer.
Also that is why MKP said "gorapadong" vs MC and MC made a crying face haha. So it seems clear that MC was definitely surprised by that kind of build, even though he may have known about gorapadong.
In other words? That kind of mech build is a great way to throw off your opponent and, if not, you can still transition well into the mid and late game. You get a shit load of hellions and can keep throwing them at your opponent, demonstrated by both gorapadong and MKP.
Edit:
OMG I WAS LOOKING FOR A TvP MECH GUIDE ON PLAYXP that i found back then (written within a few months?) I couldn't find it, but I found this new replay pack of mech! there's like 5-10 replays! Idk how good the players are but I'm guessing masters +
I watched the first 3 replays. Their APMs are about 90. Doesn't seem they are high masters nor GM on KR. Maybe only mid masters ish on NA, low master or high diamond on KR?
Maybe I'm wrong though, and they are high leveled.
On March 24 2012 10:44 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I watch the game of lyyna and crocodile
the difference I notice
In the midgame Lyyna makes a lot of thors to be safe again some protoss timing. (having thors make him turtle) Crocodile in the other hand do more marine, hellion and banshee and harass. His harass denied potentiel toss timing at some point. (but its more risky, but more aggressif)
Crocodile uses more static defence and I like it : barrack wall and planetary fortress...
In midgame Lyyna got his BC faster but crocodile makes BC later and make mass banshee instead. Having a lot of bashee give him more harass potentiel.
In lategame Lyyna use more units: like the ghost, raven. Crocodile stick with BC+banshee+tank+thors+hellion
I find that if you use more units, you rely more on having just the right mix of them to survive, so trimming your unit composition isn't a bad idea IMO. I mean in every matchup, you rarely see highly complex compositions being a standard way to play, you mainly just see a good mix of 2-4 different units that complement each other.
Also thank you, the barracks wall was an idea someone in this thread gave me, while the planetary fortress turtling and sensor tower usage I got from Yoshi Kirishima's stream.
Because we have less ressource both player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its more hard for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress are more strong and its help to terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
Its like this.
Hey guys ! have you played the new 6m2g map.?
Because we have less resource boths player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its harder for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress stronger and it helps terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
If that's all you have to say about Mech TVP, then you should really think deeply if this is the right community for you.
This Gyro_SC2 guy is a bit of a joke in this thread, don't worry about it.
@Crocodile : this is why i do progressively add these units to my mix, and only in small numbers. Basically i start to produce my core units from the midgame : tanks and banshees (which become BC later). These ghosts and ravens don't need to be in huge number to be super effective,and that's basically when i started to go away from goody's 'pure mech' style : because i realised how easy it is to change a complete battle with like 4 ghosts or 4 ravens . . . and how easy it is to get these by just replacing vcs so i still have the same deathball core x) Both options are good of course, but when the protoss start to adapt . . the 'more units mix' is slighty better because you can deal with mass archon/immo (which is a pain in the ass without enough ghosts) or mass air (with some basic micro, VR demolish thors even in big numbers T_T)
I am a gold/plat random player. But recently I have been playing Terran for the sake of TvZ mech (which is fun and I am having great success with it.) That's why I tried to carry over my experience with TvZ mech into TvP, making sure to incorporate ghosts as well.
This is my first (yes, the very first) attempt in TvP mech http://drop.sc/141198 It was a loss, and I would appreciate if the diamond+ people here could give me some tips on how to successfully execute the build. I have no answer to the endgame Toss 11~ immortals, 6-7 archon composition. Or was it that I should have unsieged and gone back to remass my army? Should I have added air in?
On February 13 2012 09:32 rgTheSchworz wrote: You´re talking trash. Any talk about biomech, or thor- based mech is either situational, all-in or troll.
Biomech doesn t share the same upgrades. Vs a protoss that upgrades faster than you do, it s terribad. You know what unupgraded marines do to fully upgraded chargelots?. Nothing. Why go Biomech? You have to keep your tanks together with your bio-army, which is not good at all. You can t harass else you get picked apart.
Thor-based mech is bad because of Feedback and Immortals. Don t try to talk me out of this with EMP your own thors or get strike cannons, because you re essentially using more expensive units to barely beat cheap-ass units. It isnt even cost effective, by the way.Why use thors when you have marauders?They re basically more mobile, have more dps vs armored, lag behind a bit on dps vs zeals, but can kite, and are healable and droppable.
If you want to go mech, Tanks are the way.You can defend blinks with hellions if you actually took the time to surround the stalkers. Plus, there s always the next production cycle of tanks waiting to assist you. MKP vs Genius was how to play mech, but had a few major flaws: Too many marines. You have to rely on scouting vs air switches. Go hellions, they re better, giving that youre not going to research stim nor shields. Late Upgrades.That s why, along with not target firing well, MKP lost the second battle.1/0 vs 1/2 even though MKP had the better army. Not enough hellions.Make m, love em. Tons of those along with good wrapping around archons/Immortalls will save the day for you.Splash makes Hellions cost-efficient vs Stalkers and Immortals, and basically any non splash protoss-unit.
i kind of agree.
but biomech builds are good till midgame, later on, you have to switch to ghostheavy bioplay though. Mech doesnt cut it, especially without ghosts as you said. If you wouldve played a very highlvl protoss who abuses your immobility once, you would see that the only map where you can ghostmech in lategame is shakuras, because you can feel quite safe chilling in the middle with pfs and surrounding all your bases with turrents and sensor towers.
again i have to say that no matter what - diamond players shouldnt write guides too much, except they say that their guide is only for players of their lvl. especially with Mech vs protoss, its not like its an unexplored thing, ppl tried it for over a year now.
I want to talk about timing push. Do you think if you don't do a 2base push like Virus or MKP, are you forced to enter in the mentality of never attack ? Maybe you can do some harass with banshee and hellion but never with your army and basily just turtle.
[Lyyna wrote:What? What do i hear? “When do you push?” ? Ahahah, good joke. The answer is simple : NEVER. Well, of course that’s kind of an exageration, you’ll sometimes push . . after defending 3 waves of super costly T3 units ,when he doesn’t have any ressources left . . .
On February 13 2012 09:32 rgTheSchworz wrote: You´re talking trash. Any talk about biomech, or thor- based mech is either situational, all-in or troll.
Biomech doesn t share the same upgrades. Vs a protoss that upgrades faster than you do, it s terribad. You know what unupgraded marines do to fully upgraded chargelots?. Nothing. Why go Biomech? You have to keep your tanks together with your bio-army, which is not good at all. You can t harass else you get picked apart.
Thor-based mech is bad because of Feedback and Immortals. Don t try to talk me out of this with EMP your own thors or get strike cannons, because you re essentially using more expensive units to barely beat cheap-ass units. It isnt even cost effective, by the way.Why use thors when you have marauders?They re basically more mobile, have more dps vs armored, lag behind a bit on dps vs zeals, but can kite, and are healable and droppable.
If you want to go mech, Tanks are the way.You can defend blinks with hellions if you actually took the time to surround the stalkers. Plus, there s always the next production cycle of tanks waiting to assist you. MKP vs Genius was how to play mech, but had a few major flaws: Too many marines. You have to rely on scouting vs air switches. Go hellions, they re better, giving that youre not going to research stim nor shields. Late Upgrades.That s why, along with not target firing well, MKP lost the second battle.1/0 vs 1/2 even though MKP had the better army. Not enough hellions.Make m, love em. Tons of those along with good wrapping around archons/Immortalls will save the day for you.Splash makes Hellions cost-efficient vs Stalkers and Immortals, and basically any non splash protoss-unit.
Can you please keep yourself up to date on the current discussion. The post you quoted is from months ago
i kind of agree.
but biomech builds are good till midgame, later on, you have to switch to ghostheavy bioplay though. Mech doesnt cut it, especially without ghosts as you said. If you wouldve played a very highlvl protoss who abuses your immobility once, you would see that the only map where you can ghostmech in lategame is shakuras, because you can feel quite safe chilling in the middle with pfs and surrounding all your bases with turrents and sensor towers.
again i have to say that no matter what - diamond players shouldnt write guides too much, except they say that their guide is only for players of their lvl. especially with Mech vs protoss, its not like its an unexplored thing, ppl tried it for over a year now.
Please keep yourself up to date with the current discussion. NOBODY is discussing the OP in this thread anymore and the post you quoted is from the first page of a 26 page long thread right? Do you honestly think that in 26 pages, there has been no one coming here to say almost word for word exactly what you've said? Read through a few pages to find out why NOBODY wants to hear what you have to say unless you have tips for playing mech better, which you most certainly do not.
On March 24 2012 23:37 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I want to talk about timing push. Do you think if you don't do a 2base push like Virus or MKP, are you forced to enter in the mentality of never attack ? Maybe you can do some harass with banshee and hellion but never with your army and basily just turtle.
[Lyyna wrote:What? What do i hear? “When do you push?” ? Ahahah, good joke. The answer is simple : NEVER. Well, of course that’s kind of an exageration, you’ll sometimes push . . after defending 3 waves of super costly T3 units ,when he doesn’t have any ressources left . . .
NO. Not with the MKP build. I don't have the playing experience with it yet but, IMO, that 10 min push is fantastic against a P that takes a very fast 3ed or techs to much. If he does none of that, then you have a ton of hellions to harass all over the map and depending on what dmg you do (and you will), you create your own timing...if you know what i mean.
What is very important with that build, is that it always keeps the P on his toes. He can't just sacrifice stupid amount of resorces (army) bacause you have such insane production capabilities available very early.
Hmmm don't understand why people get so worked up in a [D] thread. But anyway to clarify my point a bit.
I originally said that, given two equal-skill players, one protoss one terran if the protoss player knows mech is coming, he shouldn't lose. A lot of people seem to be interpreting this as 'mech is bad don't do it,' so I'd like to clarify a few points.
Firstly, Mech can be brutally effective at the highest levels because as I stated several times, if a protoss player is playing a standard (v bio) game and the terran mechs he will simply get demolished. Coupled that with limited early game scout options and that's where the problems begin for protoss. Consider a protoss going for a 2 base colossus play, his robo support bay will be down (and mostly finished) before his obs can get into to scout and that puts him in a very awkward position. You can put it in the same category as a 1 gate FE v zerg, it's an absolutely trash build if the zerg is expecting it, but can often be better than a FFE if the zerg hasn't opened with gas first.
The problem with this, is that the more frequently mech is used, the less effective it is. Great as a surprise tactic, and can absolutely demolish a protoss player that isn't preparing for mech, but going mech every single game (in a tournament setting) is putting yourself at a disadvantage (at least with the current level of game knowledge). On the other hand this actually makes mech a very good ladder strategy.
If that is all you want, and you're happy with it, then go for it, but if your goal is to be as good at this game as it's possible to be (which is what I think everyone's goal should be) then you have to understand the limitations of mech.
I'd also like to point out that I was not 'simply' listing reasons why mech is ineffective, but rather drawing parallels with Brood War. Brood War TvP *was* well balanced with mech, but making the move to sc2, Terran picks up several disadvantages, and Protoss picks up several advantages (and some of them are quite extreme). It is then not at all surprising that mech is somewhat weak in the matchup. The one point I did forget to mention was the fact that the elevated gas collection rate per base (increase from something like 220/min in BW to 300/min in SC2 - not sure of the exact figures) does help the terran mech more than the protoss, but not in a way significant enough to alter the balance.
Now, to be quite frank, this is CRUICIAL to this discussion, even if it is a discussion on *how* to go mech. If you're opting for any given strategy in the game, you really *must* be aware of its limitations. Infact that should be a top priority. If you're doing a build with no knowledge of what the build fares poorly against, well you're simply not going to have much fun with it. I am voicing something that, yes is fairly common knowledge, but is directly relevant to 'how to go mech in SC2.' If you're playing against a protoss player who figures out you're meching early enough, and knows how to respond correctly, you are simply in a poor situation. That doesn't mean you can't win, just that it will be harder for you to win than for him to win.
Shut. Up. That's not what we are discussing. That's not what this thread is about. Regardless of the validity of your points, nobody comes to this thread to discuss the viability of mech, as it is titled 'how to mech.' If you want to about mech viability I suggest you make a thread for it as this is not the place.
once again, gorapadong's build has been used in GSTL
set 2
Sound vs Tails
I wasn't able to watch it (darn!) but he went for the 2 reactor factory variation instead of 3. I wonder if it had to do with both player's econ being lower since the protoss went for a 2 base 4 gate pressure (idk how much it did) so he wanted to just push earlier instead of waiting for more econ to support 4 fact, or if he was preparing to take his third and tech up faster like MKP did in MKP vs Genius.
Because we have less ressource both player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its more hard for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress are more strong and its help to terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
Its like this.
Hey guys ! have you played the new 6m2g map.?
Because we have less resource boths player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood.
And its harder for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress stronger and it helps terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility.
User was warned for this post
I laughed alot after i read this. If your gonna be an ass and correct someone, should at least take the time to do it right (unless you were trolling, in which case you succeeded)
On topic: I love the idea of mech, and find this thread fascinating. Will be trying out some of the builds and strategies in it.
He did a variation where he left 1 guy in gas, allowing him to get his Factory on time (a few seconds faster), then put them back in after dropping the CC
He went for 2 reactors so he was less committed to that push/composition. He moved forward, but he saw the colossus, so he backed up especially since his 2 factories were slightly late (sound's nat was delayed so he couldn't get the 3rd gas up faster to get the 2nd and 3rd facts sooner) and so he couldnt siege/engage without the hellions. Once the hellions came, he saw p chasing him so he sieged up at the center where there is that fountain thing that provides some sort of a small wall. Seeing no immortals, he knew he would win if he got some vikings, so he pulled back instead of trying to siege protoss again. Then he pushed again and killed his army really easily, bringing SCVs because the "real" hard push came late, meaning he is already saturated on 2 base so he is able to bring more to make his push stronger while still having the same income as the normal push (which would have occured if he didn't pull back seeing the colossus).
I'm so happy to see this game, because I learned these things (how to react if he gets colossus instead of immortals). It seems tails was doing the wrong thing especially since he tried to take a third. Colossi will help stop the first push, but after that if he gets vikings and pushes again and you don't have things that require terran to get ghost tech (like archon or immortal or storm) then he can win easily. Now if he went for the 4 factory push, he would probably have sieged up anyways with that 1 colossi, since he has higher production, and he has 4 fact on 2 base so he can't really fit a starport in there.
gorapadong always does 4 factory push, and byun did the same, but now from MKP and sound's game it seems like 3 fact might be better, at least in the way that it makes the push less of a commitment and gives you more options and makes the game longer.
I don't like mech builds that don't incorporate banshees. Something about the build feels really unstable to me. As much as I like seeing mech in pro games (and this one CERTAINLY satisfies all of the complaints people had about the MKP vs Genius game since there were not absurd probe kills and the protoss was actually ahead going into the midgame), I don't feel comfortable with this build.
I watched a few games with you practicing it on your stream, Yoshi, and it didn't look very strong; it felt like the protoss could abuse you in so many ways and you could never trade efficiently. I felt like you sacrificed the safety and map control and harassment potential that banshees give you for a ground army that is overall still really vulnerable to a protoss who just over commits to immortals. I think banshees keep protoss honest in the same way as the do in a 111 allin: they need a lot of anti-air to survive engagements which weakens their anti-ground army.
I agree. I've been doing this build thinking maybe it's stronger/better than ones with Banshees, but I just like banshees much more. They give map control and force the toss to be much more careful with army comp, instead of this ground mech army where you have to worry a lot about your composition. Also harassment is pretty easy APM wise especailly.
Sometimes the push feels strong, sometimes it feels weak. Idk why, maybe it's their composition, or i don't have a progamer's micro so that my push isn't as good as it should be.
I think i may only be using that 4 fact push as an occasional thing, though maybe gorapadong or the pros know otherwise. With the reactor marine expand into siege tank you can, instead of adding 2-3 more factories, get cloak banshee and then transition into mid game mech by adding more factories and later ghosts (or if he's really immortal heavy, perhaps earlier). So I guess it's a good strat if he doesn't see it coming like in a BoX, you can use this 3-4 fact push to catch them off guard instead.
However another thing:
I wonder why they get vikings instead of banshees. I know that vikings are way better in some ways cus you can build 2 at a time for 200/150 instead of 1 banshee at a time for 200/175 (and time wise, you can actually build 3 viking in 1 minute and only 1 banshee in 1 minute), so for bio you should definitely keep that. However this isn't bio. But maybe the mobility of the vikings is needed since your mech army is immobile and siege tanks can't attack the colossi without sieging up or leap frogging. Meh. I feel like the banshees help a lot versus immortals and colossi, but maybe that's just cus i'm not playing at the level the pros do. And of course the banshees help in other ways like for defending against harass. Maybe we only see vikings with that 3-4 fact push because they don't plan on playing a longer game? (and MKP vs Genius was weird, he didn't get ghost tech for a while and just kept trading mech armies, maybe his pro game sense is really reliable but to me it seemed really risky to trade mech armies like that with a protoss army).
Though ofc, since that 3-4 fact is pretty light on gas, adding more starports/banshees to make up for the lesser count compared to viking shouldn't hurt too much. Perhaps after the 3-4 fact push, instead of adding an armory/ghostacademy/starport, i could just add 2 starports and 1 armory (or 2) and make 2 banshees at a time instead of viking/ghost. That would make my composition leaner, and make it easier to micro. And it would force protoss to worry about composition more than me. Using ghost/viking and reacting to protoss' comp can make bumps into your play when your army isn't the perfect composition. It would be a lot of gas especially until I take my third, but I should have 500-1000 gas at that point from making only 1 tank at a time, and could cut the hellions a bit if I'm running low on money.
I was trying to think of an expand build where you can get siege tanks and cloak banshee and then add 2 reactor factories and still push before his colossi kick in hard, but I don't think there's any way to fit all that and still hit before 11:00. I also wonder if a 2/2/2 push is stronger. But maybe I'm forgetting you don't need to push, you can just open expand into 1/1/1 then add more factories and then harass with banshee and hellions.
Now that I think of it, I think i used to win more with banshees than with this heavy ground army.
For tomorrow, I think I'll go back and try out builds like cloak banshee expand and gasless expand (into cloak banshee into siege tank or thor then siege tank later, or if he's 1 basing or doing something non-passive then siege tank before cloak banshee).
Another idea: in MKP vs Genius, Genius went for HT play so he didn't have many immortals (if at all?). Maybe if I open gasless expand into siege tank as standard (instead of gasless expand into cloak banshee into siege tank), I could auto-win vs anyone going for templar tech by adding 2-3 more facts like MKP did. Though this would mean that my banshees are delayed and if he doesn't get templar tech, then I would be worse off than just getting banshees all the time. Maybe I won't even be able to know if he's going for templar tech or not before i decide what to make V-V
is that all you're gonna say, cus did you know that vikings really rape colossi and ghosts are great against HT and marauders rape stalkers and marines rape zealots? obviously colossi and HT still have their place
get ghosts to stop HTs and/or for earlier timings you can bring LOTS of SCVs to repair, after feedbacking his HTs will be not so useful and his army will be smaller than usual
I don't see why you're not using reactor expand to transition to your mech play of choice. Its such a stable, economic build. Also I hate using Vikings before the late game just because of the 'dead supply' factor.
I like units that always provide utility, which is why I'm incorporating a hellion drop into my build so that I have a medivac to drop hellions all game. The same is true for banshees. Banshees can always be useful: Vikings may not. I add them in late game to deal with air transitions and because I can afford using the excess supply. If they commit too hard to colossus in the midgame anyway they will lose to a high banshee count.
I hate that dead supply thing as well, and landing them on ground sucks cus of chargelots and immortals.
Perhaps the reason why the pros opt to get Vikings just has to do with their higher level of skill; maybe they don't find it as hard trying to make a perfect composition than we do? They have much more experience and game sense so at their level of play I think things are less in the dark than when us mere masters play. But even so, I think both hellion and banshee harass would be really good. But MKP opted for medivacs instead of banshees. Obviously both banshees and hellions have their own strengths but I think hellions might actually be better. You can produce them faster and it's harder to stop your probes from being killed. Hellions can kill probes much faster and they can suicide into canons while Banshees can't. They would have to sit troops at their mineral line instead of just putting a few canons at each base.
Maybe I'm just thinking about it too much though and it's just partially also just preference ^^. Goody likes to open with hellion/marine drop/harass (ideally a 2 prong). HannibalPrime opened with that as well vs MC back in GSTL several months ago. Both the goals of banshee/hellion is to harass and force him to stay home to defend, kill probes, scout his tech and army and upgrades, get map control, etc. etc. So I guess the map should play an important role in deciding which to favor (unless you pick both) for the majority of the game.