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Hi guys,
Didn't see any topics started on this yet.
I have played Korhal 4 times now against Z and each time I have opened up with a simple 1 gate expand. I won 3/4 of these games with all of them being long macro games, however I am wondering what others are opening with. I always feel like I am slightly behind with a 1 gate expand if the zerg takes a quick third.
Is there a decently safe way to FFE or are we best to open with the 1 gate FE?
What are you using as your opening for this map vs Z?
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Has no one played PvZ on this map yet?
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My opening vs Zergs on all the maps I have un-vetoed for season 6 is a 2 gate exansion, with 3-4 zealot pressure. The map has a pretty wide choke at the natural though, So I am still working on how to configure my wall, with this opening.
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I've played 3 customs in which I FFEd just fine with a pylon and forge at the base of the ramp. These all turned into long macro games. I'm only diamond and none of the Zerg I played tried a bust so my successes are partially untested. But I don't see why FFE shouldn't be possible seeing as a number of toss streamers were FFEing on Arid Plateau...a much more dangerous natural.
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I actually prefer to not FFE on maps where you cannot wall with 3 buildings and a zealot. And I especially hate to FFE on any map that requires me to get 2 cannons to protect vs the Z taking free damage. Why? You have to worry way too much about defense when I prefer to be on the offense. So Korhol... 1gate FE or 3gate FE every time.
If you're having trouble vs the Zerg taking a fast 3rd base when you 1gate FE then the best thing you can do is to 1) get a stargate early, or 2) go for some sort of 2base timing. I prefer a +2 attack blink stalker timing with a bajillion FF's. Be sure to get a robo before you attack though. The only way you lose this game is if you have bad micro or he got Hydras very quickly. And if he got Hydras really quickly it's going to be harder for him to deny your 3rd. So press your map presence with blink/sentry and a warp prism with zealots, get an observer on the map and deny creep spread so hydras have to comit to going cross-map or Nydus. Meanwhile you FAST tech to templar or to Colossus and snag your own 3rd behind your soft contain. If he pushes across the map just drop a bunch of cannons cause he can't run away without taking free damage from your blink stalkers.
If he didn't get Hydras... Just fuckin kill him. If you don't kill him (especially on a map like Korhol with tons of chokes) then you micro'd poorly.
If you decided to go with Templar, you must also make immortals. Templar and Immortals should always come in pairs in PvZ. Make as many Templar as you can while constantly producing immortals and throwing down cannons/gateways at your 3rd.
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Honestly i find FFE pretty easy on this map if you nexus wall. its easy to block off the runby route behind your mineral line and the nexus wall works out pretty neatly, im able to fit 2 cannons snugly behind my forge and gateway and between my nexus. I held a pretty crazy roach ling all-in with ease on this... it would seem difficult but its really not. just go into a custom and figure it out(:
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The only reason you go 1gate/3gate expos is so the zerg cant take a 3rd hatch before 9-10 mins. You have a decent gateway army by 7-8mins, use it, move to his 3rd at around 8 mins with a probe for a proxy pylon. If he has a third at this stage you can kill it and pull back. If he doesnt simply carefully pressure the nat and pull back if he has units.
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FFE forge-gate-nexus wall. I don't see why you'd do a gate opening on korhal.
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Thanks guys. Looks like I have some practicing to do!
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On February 15 2012 23:48 KraVe wrote: Hi guys,
Didn't see any topics started on this yet.
I have played Korhal 4 times now against Z and each time I have opened up with a simple 1 gate expand. I won 3/4 of these games with all of them being long macro games, however I am wondering what others are opening with. I always feel like I am slightly behind with a 1 gate expand if the zerg takes a quick third.
Is there a decently safe way to FFE or are we best to open with the 1 gate FE?
What are you using as your opening for this map vs Z?
This has nothing to do with your wins/losses. But if the Zerg takes a fast third after you 1 gate expand you did something wrong. They can't take a third at a normal FFE time as you have UNITS! Go pressure and if you have sentries and good forcefields it will be virtually impossible for him to hold a third that quick without building up a decent sized army first. And even then. If you get up a ramp with your army then FF and kill. Seriously there should be no way they can take a fast third. Just pressure afterwards with like 3-4 gates and a good sentry count.
Edit: oh ya see guy above me said the same thing. If you are doing good 1 gate FEing then stick on it. Its riskier than FFE to allins but way better at forcing the Zerg to 2 base vs 2 base with you for a while. And trust me that is a really shitty spot for the Z
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FFE have worked just fine to me played about 3-4 games vs Z yesterday and it worked just perfectly great, if you are unsure about position you can add me (if your EU that is) Whimpen 981
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I've been walling this map the same as Antiga..Forge, Gate, Cyber, Zealot, Pylon. You don't have the highground vision, but it is easy enough to defend and gives you more space to build than a Nexus wall.
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FFE works fine, but is it worth trying to take a third? I didn't play Korhal before it joined the ladder, and that third base looks pretty nasty. The overlooking high ground isn't too scary vs Z, but the distance between your natural and third and the way that the path requires you to expose your army to a massive flank in order to move between those bases looks like it will cause a lot of losses.
I've been going for 2-base timings on Korhal vs Z. Maybe my zealot-void-templar-immortal strategy would work tho since zealots don't fear flanks like sentries and colossi do.
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Canada13372 Posts
On February 17 2012 00:17 kcdc wrote: FFE works fine, but is it worth trying to take a third? I didn't play Korhal before it joined the ladder, and that third base looks pretty nasty. The overlooking high ground isn't too scary vs Z, but the distance between your natural and third and the way that the path requires you to expose your army to a massive flank in order to move between those bases looks like it will cause a lot of losses.
I've been going for 2-base timings on Korhal vs Z. Maybe my zealot-void-templar-immortal strategy would work tho since zealots don't fear flanks like sentries and colossi do.
It looks like dual sight to me and we know what dual sight is like for protoss. I think that maps with the first 3 expansions in a line AND a large natural is just bad for protoss against heavy roach play.
If you look at other maps with 3 bases that aren't super close like day break at least there you have positional advantage when moving from the natural to the 3rd and can avoid a flank or defend on both sides.
For example the game from ESV stream 1 last night, on daybreak the mass roach strat that would have broken protoss on dual sight was much easier to hold on daybreak. Even though nexuses were lost, the slightly triangular positioning of the bases and highground between nat and 3rd along with ramps made defense possible.
This is from a map layout perspective. Im not a mapper but a lot of maps with straight line 1st 2nd third and wide nat have always been harder for protoss. Xel naga comes to mind as well but the way the natural was set up made flanks harder since you had the positional advantage of a choke point coming into the natural from either side and the ramp came into a concave at the third which isn't quite the same as the scenario in korhal compound.
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Since making this thread I have tried FFE'ing on Korhal and have been successful. I must say however that kcdc, you are exactly right. That third base is a bitch! 2 base timings are certainly the way to go. I've been using 7 gate blink stalker but I will give your strat a go for sure tonight.
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if you build your first pylon touching the bottom of the ramp, but on the outside, you can use forge+gateway next to it. (putting the pylon there is also helpful if he 6 pools, you can just block of the ramp easily) then your second pylon needs to go on the other side of the choke, but back behind the wall and not part of it. Then the cyber core goes down and leaves a 1 hex gap between core and gateway. I think it works pretty well but ive not actually played on ladder on this map yet ^^
EDIT: Wow alot of these replies are making me wanna veto korhal ^^ ill at least try it first, but how does it faie in PvP and PvT
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Canada13372 Posts
On February 17 2012 01:33 Sated wrote: You should be able to FFE on this map. The natural is quite small, so it only takes a couple of forcefields to force enemy units into your cannons. Definitely better than attempting to FFE on Metalopolis (which I wouldn't advise) and probably safer than a FFE on Shattered Temple (which I usually attempt) too.
However, like other people have mentioned above, I don't like the positioning of the third (for the reasons mentioned above). What this means for Protoss players is that we need to be punishing Zerg players who try to take that third base by using an aggressive strategy. There are lots of places to hide high-ground pylons on the opponents side of the map, so most Gateway all-ins are going to be really strong.
But then you hit a special problem similar to 4 gate TDA PvP. We know and expect a 2 base all in, so Zerg does something that is meant to hold it. But maybe you dont all in then maybe they prepare wrongly, but then they get aggressive -- weird psychological loop that ends in idk whats going on.
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I have enjoyed the challenge of defending the multiple attack paths on this map. I'm only diamond, but when I have decent obs spread and cannon/gate off the third, I have been able to bait roaches, FF the army and split it up.
The spread out bases are difficult for Z to defend as well when I use WP harass.
I played a 54-minute game where my opponent and I mined out almost every mineral patch. GG.
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Build a semi wall at every choke with gate when going for third with zealot guarding or sentry. Should have enough resources for that and will probably be good time to add gates at that point anyways . Should just stick to two bases and try and harass for sometime though from 1 gate expo)
Do know that its the same for your opponent. Split up the zerg army (warp prism) and go kill his expos.
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On February 15 2012 23:48 KraVe wrote: Hi guys,
Didn't see any topics started on this yet.
I have played Korhal 4 times now against Z and each time I have opened up with a simple 1 gate expand. I won 3/4 of these games with all of them being long macro games, however I am wondering what others are opening with. I always feel like I am slightly behind with a 1 gate expand if the zerg takes a quick third.
Is there a decently safe way to FFE or are we best to open with the 1 gate FE?
What are you using as your opening for this map vs Z?
If you do a 1 gate expand, you need to push out before 8:00 with ~ 4 gate production to punish any greedy thirds.
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On February 17 2012 00:49 ZeromuS wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The following images are getting at why I feel the third is so hard to hold on korhal compared to another 2 player map with a more line oriented position of first 3 bases Red means attack path, Blue denotes a defensive concave, orange shows a good position to defend to prevent a flank at the third (when the army is split assuming a 2 prong attack) On korhal you get very little room to try and defend a group of units coming into the third base through the left hand side ramp. The Defenses at your natural aren't going to help you defend an attack at all. The nice thing is there are only 2 attack paths into the third whereas dual sight has 3. However the amount of room offered to the defender is the same as the amount of room offered the attacker with regards to the choke on the left or the right. Which makes creating a concave difficult but it does allow for forcefields to be effective in cutting an army in half. Xel naga for all its other problems at least lets a third base be more easily defended than either dual sight or Korhal. The main reason being that you can set up a defensive concave to prevent the opponent from pushing straight to the third via the left side ramp, and it funnels into a choke. Furthermore, if they attack down the left side of the natural should you have done a FFE with nexus wall the cannons actually help you defend so you can keep the defenders advantage there. If you didnt FFE you probably still walled to some extent and they aren't pushing into the third without going through some form of choke point. You can split to defend the third base far right ramp which comes down into a concave. You have room to create a concave whereas on korhal the ramp comes down to an area with the same width as the ramp which makes the concave useless. you also have the option of defending above the ramp as well or taking a position in the middle to hold everything on xel naga but im trying to address defending multiple positions while avoiding a massive flank. Then there is dual sight with 3 attack paths, not a lot of good places to set up a defensive concave or position to defend the third let alone not being flanked.
Good analysis. I think it's worthy of an OP in its own thread. One nice thing about Korhal is that the backdoor entrance to the third is swung pretty far out of the way, so Z can't bounce between attack paths as easily as Z can on maps like Dual Sight or Metalopolis.
Still, I'm going to stick to 2-base all-ins on Korhal for a while until Z's prove they can defend them consistently. I'd rather win than go for style points.
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On February 17 2012 05:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 00:49 ZeromuS wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The following images are getting at why I feel the third is so hard to hold on korhal compared to another 2 player map with a more line oriented position of first 3 bases Red means attack path, Blue denotes a defensive concave, orange shows a good position to defend to prevent a flank at the third (when the army is split assuming a 2 prong attack) On korhal you get very little room to try and defend a group of units coming into the third base through the left hand side ramp. The Defenses at your natural aren't going to help you defend an attack at all. The nice thing is there are only 2 attack paths into the third whereas dual sight has 3. However the amount of room offered to the defender is the same as the amount of room offered the attacker with regards to the choke on the left or the right. Which makes creating a concave difficult but it does allow for forcefields to be effective in cutting an army in half. Xel naga for all its other problems at least lets a third base be more easily defended than either dual sight or Korhal. The main reason being that you can set up a defensive concave to prevent the opponent from pushing straight to the third via the left side ramp, and it funnels into a choke. Furthermore, if they attack down the left side of the natural should you have done a FFE with nexus wall the cannons actually help you defend so you can keep the defenders advantage there. If you didnt FFE you probably still walled to some extent and they aren't pushing into the third without going through some form of choke point. You can split to defend the third base far right ramp which comes down into a concave. You have room to create a concave whereas on korhal the ramp comes down to an area with the same width as the ramp which makes the concave useless. you also have the option of defending above the ramp as well or taking a position in the middle to hold everything on xel naga but im trying to address defending multiple positions while avoiding a massive flank. Then there is dual sight with 3 attack paths, not a lot of good places to set up a defensive concave or position to defend the third let alone not being flanked. Good analysis. I think it's worthy of an OP in its own thread. One nice thing about Korhal is that the backdoor entrance to the third is swung pretty far out of the way, so Z can't bounce between attack paths as easily as Z can on maps like Dual Sight or Metalopolis. Still, I'm going to stick to 2-base all-ins on Korhal for a while until Z's prove they can defend them consistently. I'd rather win than go for style points.
Could you upload a couple of replays to study? I'm not sure what timing I should shoot for or where to attack exactly because of the huge walking distance....
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On February 17 2012 00:17 kcdc wrote: FFE works fine, but is it worth trying to take a third? I didn't play Korhal before it joined the ladder, and that third base looks pretty nasty. The overlooking high ground isn't too scary vs Z, but the distance between your natural and third and the way that the path requires you to expose your army to a massive flank in order to move between those bases looks like it will cause a lot of losses.
I've been going for 2-base timings on Korhal vs Z. Maybe my zealot-void-templar-immortal strategy would work tho since zealots don't fear flanks like sentries and colossi do.
The good thing is that watchtower covers both flanking paths and there's a random elevated platform in the middle of the flanking path there for you to put a void ray where zerg can't see it unless they have a spotter overlord.
Also the high ground is too far from the nexus to get fired at.
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On February 17 2012 06:35 Mikelius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 05:58 kcdc wrote:On February 17 2012 00:49 ZeromuS wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The following images are getting at why I feel the third is so hard to hold on korhal compared to another 2 player map with a more line oriented position of first 3 bases Red means attack path, Blue denotes a defensive concave, orange shows a good position to defend to prevent a flank at the third (when the army is split assuming a 2 prong attack) On korhal you get very little room to try and defend a group of units coming into the third base through the left hand side ramp. The Defenses at your natural aren't going to help you defend an attack at all. The nice thing is there are only 2 attack paths into the third whereas dual sight has 3. However the amount of room offered to the defender is the same as the amount of room offered the attacker with regards to the choke on the left or the right. Which makes creating a concave difficult but it does allow for forcefields to be effective in cutting an army in half. Xel naga for all its other problems at least lets a third base be more easily defended than either dual sight or Korhal. The main reason being that you can set up a defensive concave to prevent the opponent from pushing straight to the third via the left side ramp, and it funnels into a choke. Furthermore, if they attack down the left side of the natural should you have done a FFE with nexus wall the cannons actually help you defend so you can keep the defenders advantage there. If you didnt FFE you probably still walled to some extent and they aren't pushing into the third without going through some form of choke point. You can split to defend the third base far right ramp which comes down into a concave. You have room to create a concave whereas on korhal the ramp comes down to an area with the same width as the ramp which makes the concave useless. you also have the option of defending above the ramp as well or taking a position in the middle to hold everything on xel naga but im trying to address defending multiple positions while avoiding a massive flank. Then there is dual sight with 3 attack paths, not a lot of good places to set up a defensive concave or position to defend the third let alone not being flanked. Good analysis. I think it's worthy of an OP in its own thread. One nice thing about Korhal is that the backdoor entrance to the third is swung pretty far out of the way, so Z can't bounce between attack paths as easily as Z can on maps like Dual Sight or Metalopolis. Still, I'm going to stick to 2-base all-ins on Korhal for a while until Z's prove they can defend them consistently. I'd rather win than go for style points. Could you upload a couple of replays to study? I'm not sure what timing I should shoot for or where to attack exactly because of the huge walking distance....
I've been doing a really strong 2-base all-in that I copied from SlayerScrank's stream. Basically, it's a +1 zealot void harass at 8 minutes building void count to 3 and killing what Z gives you, then warp in ~8 sentries at home, get a robo and 7 gates, and all-in at about 14 minutes with immortals, stalkers, sentries and your 3 voids. I saw crank crush nestea pretty hard on ladder with it, and I've been using it a lot since. I think I'm like 10-3 with the strategy.
It works well on Korhal because the ridge overlooking the third is powerful proxy pylon location for your zealot harass, and it's difficult for Z to deny. The 14 minute all-in is also quite strong on Korhal because you can attack along the side path and hit the backdoor entrance to the third which keeps you in close quarters through pretty much the whole attack route. This is obviously great for forcefields, and it also favors your voids since they float over your army and effectively increase the size of your concave in the close quarters.
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I mostly go FFE on Korhal Compound and just use Hallucination and scout zerg that's it won 2/2 of my games so far! :D
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On February 17 2012 11:26 Adventure wrote: I mostly go FFE on Korhal Compound and just use Hallucination and scout zerg that's it won 2/2 of my games so far! :D
I've been getting beaten every time by Barrin when I forge FE. He either 1 or 2 base all-ins and destroys me. The forge FE is risky with such a wide natural entrance- although you just have to make sure you can defend roach or hydra all-ins (if you go stargate). Otherwise I'd say that a 1gate or 3gate expand is safer on ladder.
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On February 17 2012 09:10 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:35 Mikelius wrote:On February 17 2012 05:58 kcdc wrote:On February 17 2012 00:49 ZeromuS wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The following images are getting at why I feel the third is so hard to hold on korhal compared to another 2 player map with a more line oriented position of first 3 bases Red means attack path, Blue denotes a defensive concave, orange shows a good position to defend to prevent a flank at the third (when the army is split assuming a 2 prong attack) On korhal you get very little room to try and defend a group of units coming into the third base through the left hand side ramp. The Defenses at your natural aren't going to help you defend an attack at all. The nice thing is there are only 2 attack paths into the third whereas dual sight has 3. However the amount of room offered to the defender is the same as the amount of room offered the attacker with regards to the choke on the left or the right. Which makes creating a concave difficult but it does allow for forcefields to be effective in cutting an army in half. Xel naga for all its other problems at least lets a third base be more easily defended than either dual sight or Korhal. The main reason being that you can set up a defensive concave to prevent the opponent from pushing straight to the third via the left side ramp, and it funnels into a choke. Furthermore, if they attack down the left side of the natural should you have done a FFE with nexus wall the cannons actually help you defend so you can keep the defenders advantage there. If you didnt FFE you probably still walled to some extent and they aren't pushing into the third without going through some form of choke point. You can split to defend the third base far right ramp which comes down into a concave. You have room to create a concave whereas on korhal the ramp comes down to an area with the same width as the ramp which makes the concave useless. you also have the option of defending above the ramp as well or taking a position in the middle to hold everything on xel naga but im trying to address defending multiple positions while avoiding a massive flank. Then there is dual sight with 3 attack paths, not a lot of good places to set up a defensive concave or position to defend the third let alone not being flanked. Good analysis. I think it's worthy of an OP in its own thread. One nice thing about Korhal is that the backdoor entrance to the third is swung pretty far out of the way, so Z can't bounce between attack paths as easily as Z can on maps like Dual Sight or Metalopolis. Still, I'm going to stick to 2-base all-ins on Korhal for a while until Z's prove they can defend them consistently. I'd rather win than go for style points. Could you upload a couple of replays to study? I'm not sure what timing I should shoot for or where to attack exactly because of the huge walking distance.... I've been doing a really strong 2-base all-in that I copied from SlayerScrank's stream. Basically, it's a +1 zealot void harass at 8 minutes building void count to 3 and killing what Z gives you, then warp in ~8 sentries at home, get a robo and 7 gates, and all-in at about 14 minutes with immortals, stalkers, sentries and your 3 voids. I saw crank crush nestea pretty hard on ladder with it, and I've been using it a lot since. I think I'm like 10-3 with the strategy. It works well on Korhal because the ridge overlooking the third is powerful proxy pylon location for your zealot harass, and it's difficult for Z to deny. The 14 minute all-in is also quite strong on Korhal because you can attack along the side path and hit the backdoor entrance to the third which keeps you in close quarters through pretty much the whole attack route. This is obviously great for forcefields, and it also favors your voids since they float over your army and effectively increase the size of your concave in the close quarters.
that sounds great, gonna go try that. I've been having lots of problem holding the 3rd on Korhal, the FFE is no problem. But if I dont cripple the zerg before I take the 3rd I have massing problems with run bys on my 3rd cos often times my attack path does not cover the 3rd at all. I feel the zerg is able to position his army to defend his 3rd and 4th easily and counter pressure cos of the relatively short distances. IDK if its a personal problem of mine or it really is the case in PvZ on the map.
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From a zerg perspective, I think you can FFE very safely. I don't really try to bust FFE's very much, but I think you're safe here. As for builds later, I feel the void +1 zealot pressure is super strong here with a pylon on the highground above the third. Gateway timings are also pretty good because there are a ton of chokes (the doodads create 2-3 FF walls as well)
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the same goes for zerg though. it is really easy to deny zerg's 3rd as well. it's so open you can wrap in some units to natural then snipe the 3rd with stalkers and run away for free.
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On February 17 2012 11:51 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 11:26 Adventure wrote: I mostly go FFE on Korhal Compound and just use Hallucination and scout zerg that's it won 2/2 of my games so far! :D I've been getting beaten every time by Barrin when I forge FE. He either 1 or 2 base all-ins and destroys me. The forge FE is risky with such a wide natural entrance- although you just have to make sure you can defend roach or hydra all-ins (if you go stargate). Otherwise I'd say that a 1gate or 3gate expand is safer on ladder.
I agree with you but i like FFE because of the early Speedling pressure but if you keep scouting the zerg you would know what build he is going for i would try to post some ladder replays soon. (not the best.)
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FFE or Yuffe its fine in new maps. i go for agresive 2 base play too, so annoying multi pronged roach/ling/muta agression in this map.
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On February 19 2012 04:26 RRDjhonn wrote:
FFE or Yuffe its fine in new maps. i go for agresive 2 base play too, so annoying multi pronged roach/ling/muta agression in this map.
what does yuffe mean
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I don't see any problems with FFE on Korhal really. I always wall off my choke with forge,gate,cyber and a pylon, leaving a small gap next to it for zealots to block. I mean, if someone is not comfortable with a (blocked) hole in their wall, it may seem weird to FFE there, but as it goes for me, I always open with 4gate +1 zealot pressure after FFE, so I need to have a gap for zealots and probes to slip through anyway.
Obviously, general rules still apply for cheese scouting, because especially baneling busts can be really deadly with the zealot gap. However, when u put ur second pylon at the very side of your wall where the gap for the zealot will be, u are always able to simply wall off the "weak spot" quickly and defend cheeses the same way u would on shakuras.
I wall off the same way at the ramp on Antiga and don't see any problems with it at all. =)
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I personally go for a completely different approach on this map, personally i dont think the 3rd is very difficult to defend at all vs ground zerg, and you get a free 4th base in the process. The key is controlling the watchtower
http://drop.sc/114698 A replay vs a good zerg, showing the walloff with the greediest of openings 17 nexus 17 forge 17 gateway pylon - cannon, preventing ling runbys off a 14 pool
Feel free to give me feedback on this base management.
I know the zerg didnt see the wall, but im sure i could have warped in sentries and attacked him from the back with my main army.
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As everyone's been saying FFE is the way to go on this map. But I'd like to add that I've been having a lot of success with Killer's super fast warp prism into 8 gate with 3 immortal timing. It's incredibly safe because you are constantly producing out of your first gate (3 zealots and a stalker) and then your robo is finishing for any potential roach timings. The drop happens fast and lines up with your first 4 gates and +1. If he doesn't have roach tech you warp in with it, if he does you add on the 4 additional gates, clear creep (with the warp prism) and produce sentries at home. The drop also accomplishes scouting for lair timing/spire tech, and you can transition to a 2nd expansion if you feel like you can't hit your timing before mutas.
It didn't look all that impressive against MacSed but since he did the exact same build 2 games in a row I thought that there must be something to it, I hit the ladder with it and it feels incredibly strong.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 19 2012 09:02 weikor wrote:I personally go for a completely different approach on this map, personally i dont think the 3rd is very difficult to defend at all vs ground zerg, and you get a free 4th base in the process. The key is controlling the watchtower http://drop.sc/114698A replay vs a good zerg, showing the walloff with the greediest of openings 17 nexus 17 forge 17 gateway pylon - cannon, preventing ling runbys off a 14 pool Feel free to give me feedback on this base management. I know the zerg didnt see the wall, but im sure i could have warped in sentries and attacked him from the back with my main army. It's not really practical to defend so much space. You're literally trying to cover almost half the map.
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I'm having a lot of trouble stopping muta on this map. 3rd is tough to defend (for both p and z) unless you have a massive flying fleet! Yeesh! Gotta get some more games on it to get a feel though, my army splitting isn't the best yet. I do like the map quite a bit, and the watchtower was clearly well placed. I feel like in some blizzard maps they just throw them in in random places. But I guess that's b/c watchtowers don't make all that much sense in 4 player maps b/c the different spawning positions make it so you need the tower in different places.
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On February 19 2012 09:02 weikor wrote:I personally go for a completely different approach on this map, personally i dont think the 3rd is very difficult to defend at all vs ground zerg, and you get a free 4th base in the process. The key is controlling the watchtower
You got it right. Anyone who watched Apollo's video on this map would know, you can easily wall off the 4th like that and double expand.
So probably opening something able to bounce between your 2 walls off 2 bases is the way to go, blink or stargate stuff probably -- Stand your army between the two walls in the middle, laugh your way to the bank.. And, keep in mind most zergs are gonna open fast 3 hatch so you have some time to set up the wall.
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On February 15 2012 23:48 KraVe wrote: Hi guys,
Didn't see any topics started on this yet.
I have played Korhal 4 times now against Z and each time I have opened up with a simple 1 gate expand. I won 3/4 of these games with all of them being long macro games, however I am wondering what others are opening with. I always feel like I am slightly behind with a 1 gate expand if the zerg takes a quick third.
Is there a decently safe way to FFE or are we best to open with the 1 gate FE?
What are you using as your opening for this map vs Z?
Follow the pack, if you can....
Forge-Expand or Die Trying!
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I usually open 1/3 gate FE (ye, i'm playing oldfag style), then I do something like this
red - wall, yellow - cannons, blue - army. This way there's only one entrance to your bases and its nearly impossible to flank as zerg.
With that its pretty easy to defend 3 bases, as for 4th - I usually drop like 8 cannons to defend it, same with 5th.
Low masters EU. (didnt read all the topic so dunno if anyone use this kind of wallin)
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Canada13372 Posts
On February 20 2012 07:29 DrGreen wrote:I usually open 1/3 gate FE (ye, i'm playing oldfag style), then I do something like this red - wall, yellow - cannons, blue - army. This way there's only one entrance to your bases and its nearly impossible to flank as zerg. With that its pretty easy to defend 3 bases, as for 4th - I usually drop like 8 cannons to defend it, same with 5th. Low masters EU. (didnt read all the topic so dunno if anyone use this kind of wallin)
The problem I have with that wall in is that walling so far up front means you don't have very far to fall back defensively. Further, that wall is very far from the wall at the 3rd. Further, low ground wall there makes taking a 4th later and defending it gets very very difficult. You are better of walling at the 4th instead of the 3rd.
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I don't care to much about taking a third vs. zerg because I like 2 base timing so I don't have to deal with Z late game T3. That being said you FFE but it is just routed odd, like when you FFE on the upper left base on metalapolis, just something you need to get used to, good luck!
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On February 20 2012 09:34 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 07:29 DrGreen wrote:I usually open 1/3 gate FE (ye, i'm playing oldfag style), then I do something like this red - wall, yellow - cannons, blue - army. This way there's only one entrance to your bases and its nearly impossible to flank as zerg. With that its pretty easy to defend 3 bases, as for 4th - I usually drop like 8 cannons to defend it, same with 5th. Low masters EU. (didnt read all the topic so dunno if anyone use this kind of wallin) The problem I have with that wall in is that walling so far up front means you don't have very far to fall back defensively. Further, that wall is very far from the wall at the 3rd. Further, low ground wall there makes taking a 4th later and defending it gets very very difficult. You are better of walling at the 4th instead of the 3rd.
So u say that my wall @ 3rd is too far and then you suggest to wall at 4th? I find it way harder to def wall @ 4th+nat at the same time. forward wall is just to prevent flanking and buy time if needed. You can always fall back to nat if zerg comes with some allin.
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Honestly that map is terrible PvZ, I just veto it. Sorry if I sound destructive but the nat and third are so far apart and there are so many entrances I just hate playing PvZ on it.
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Canada13372 Posts
On February 20 2012 10:06 DrGreen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 09:34 ZeromuS wrote:On February 20 2012 07:29 DrGreen wrote:I usually open 1/3 gate FE (ye, i'm playing oldfag style), then I do something like this red - wall, yellow - cannons, blue - army. This way there's only one entrance to your bases and its nearly impossible to flank as zerg. With that its pretty easy to defend 3 bases, as for 4th - I usually drop like 8 cannons to defend it, same with 5th. Low masters EU. (didnt read all the topic so dunno if anyone use this kind of wallin) The problem I have with that wall in is that walling so far up front means you don't have very far to fall back defensively. Further, that wall is very far from the wall at the 3rd. Further, low ground wall there makes taking a 4th later and defending it gets very very difficult. You are better of walling at the 4th instead of the 3rd. So u say that my wall @ 3rd is too far and then you suggest to wall at 4th? I find it way harder to def wall @ 4th+nat at the same time. forward wall is just to prevent flanking and buy time if needed. You can always fall back to nat if zerg comes with some allin.
But then you are throwing your buildings at the left side wall away if you fall back. Building at the 4th will help you defend the 4th and from where you say you want your army positioned isn't THAT much further. I just wouldn't wall anywhere but at the 4th because if you wall the 3rd and you make a 4th base how do you get from the 3rd to the 4th without blink and even then only the stalkers will be able to help at the 4th with blink on cooldown.
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On February 20 2012 10:40 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 10:06 DrGreen wrote:On February 20 2012 09:34 ZeromuS wrote:On February 20 2012 07:29 DrGreen wrote:I usually open 1/3 gate FE (ye, i'm playing oldfag style), then I do something like this red - wall, yellow - cannons, blue - army. This way there's only one entrance to your bases and its nearly impossible to flank as zerg. With that its pretty easy to defend 3 bases, as for 4th - I usually drop like 8 cannons to defend it, same with 5th. Low masters EU. (didnt read all the topic so dunno if anyone use this kind of wallin) The problem I have with that wall in is that walling so far up front means you don't have very far to fall back defensively. Further, that wall is very far from the wall at the 3rd. Further, low ground wall there makes taking a 4th later and defending it gets very very difficult. You are better of walling at the 4th instead of the 3rd. So u say that my wall @ 3rd is too far and then you suggest to wall at 4th? I find it way harder to def wall @ 4th+nat at the same time. forward wall is just to prevent flanking and buy time if needed. You can always fall back to nat if zerg comes with some allin. But then you are throwing your buildings at the left side wall away if you fall back. Building at the 4th will help you defend the 4th and from where you say you want your army positioned isn't THAT much further. I just wouldn't wall anywhere but at the 4th because if you wall the 3rd and you make a 4th base how do you get from the 3rd to the 4th without blink and even then only the stalkers will be able to help at the 4th with blink on cooldown.
I doubt that you would easier defend buildings at ur 4th, than near nat(without leaving your main/nat vulnerable). As i said, i'm defending 4th with cannons, also I position my army on the high ground, not low(which is dumb).
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On February 20 2012 10:20 xlava wrote: Honestly that map is terrible PvZ, I just veto it. Sorry if I sound destructive but the nat and third are so far apart and there are so many entrances I just hate playing PvZ on it.
There are soo many freaking chokes and you say this map is horrible against zerg? i disagree wholeheartedly
I've been either doing 2 base all in ( when i scout he's being too greedy) or go for a colossi midgame and take a third and wall off at the fourth, keep a zealot on the watchtower and position your army between the two small high ground area's to the third side of the watchtower. You can see armies coming from both sides and if he tries to kill your third you can FF him into oblivion in those chokes, and colossus really shines on this map. The naniwa 2 base colossus all in is freaking hard to deal with for a zerg player due to the chokes that you can abuse.
Only problem on this map is muta play, because the bases are soo freaking far spread out, so if zerg doesn't do fast 3 hatch i do blink stalker all in that hits just before the muta's come out.
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Hmm, why not try to take a more offensive third at the 9 o'clock? It's actually really close to the main as well as the Zerg 4th.
Keep the army by the watchtower. Put an obs above the patch of trees at 11 and one at third/fourth to keep tabs on if his army's gonna attack-- if he tries to go from the third, you can get there fast enough and have high ground advantage. 9 seems fairly easy to defend because there's just one ramp there that you can attack from-- the back one is half blocked by rocks, and you can warp in pretty close on the low ground from main.
I haven't played KC yet though, so maybe I'm being silly.
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On February 20 2012 04:56 -_- wrote: I'm having a lot of trouble stopping muta on this map. 3rd is tough to defend (for both p and z) unless you have a massive flying fleet! Yeesh! Gotta get some more games on it to get a feel though, my army splitting isn't the best yet. I do like the map quite a bit, and the watchtower was clearly well placed. I feel like in some blizzard maps they just throw them in in random places. But I guess that's b/c watchtowers don't make all that much sense in 4 player maps b/c the different spawning positions make it so you need the tower in different places.
Try getting high templar / archon in your mineral line be sure you get storm researched get 3 cannons powered by 2 pylons archon in middle of the mineral line and archon outside. Do this for all the bases you get. And 4 blink stalkers in each base should be able to hold of any expansions you get.
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