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On March 07 2012 01:20 Sated wrote: If I scout any sort of gasless build from a Terran then I do a one-base 5gate all-in. I personally do it out of a 2gate opening, but if you were going for a 1gate opening then you'd probably still be able to do it - just spend all your remaining chronoboosts on Warpgate Research and throw down additional Gateways instead of throwing down an expansion. In my experience, it works more than it fails, even if it isn't completely fool-proof.
To be honest, the only reason Terrans (and Zergs) think they can get away with such greedy builds is because people are so apologetic about cheesing (or abhor it to the point where they think it is wrong to cheese). Play to win, not to meet some sort of macro-standard.
I agree that we should all in vs unsafe builds but gasless expo into three rax is save vs fourgate if you scout it and pull scvs, you're I think your only getting the wins due to opponents mistakes which isnt really a great way too play imo.
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On March 07 2012 01:30 ZeroTalent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 00:54 Rotcod wrote:On March 07 2012 00:51 xtruder wrote: 3 gate robo is actually pretty good against a super greedy ultra-fast expand. What you do is wait for 3-4 immortals and attack. You focus immortals on bunkers and use generous guardian shields and forcefields. He won't have much of an army to defend since he double expo'd.
Too many people are ashamed of going "all-in". I think it's more shameful to allow your opponent to play greedy and thinking you're a fool. He will have more units than a normal terran build at the immortal timming, the mules/base/upgrades will have kicked in by then ?! It takes ~5 minutes from the start of build time for an expansion to kick in unless you cut workers. The third CC starts at about 5:30, so any sort of all-in before 10:30 gives the army advantage to protoss. Also to go Barracks/CC/CC you can't start mining gas before 6:00, so you can all-in before stim hits. What about chronoing out +1 armor and doing some sort of 6gate or 7gate push with a bunch of sentries? You should have the superior army at that point, and between guardian shield and FFs you should be able to bust the bunkers. If the attack fails you have a reasonable transition to Zealot/Archon/HT, or you can use DTs to stall while you set up your economy & more upgreades.
I'm pretty sure 5 mins is the incorrect payback time especially with mules, you got a source? As for 7 gate, may I ask how you are scouting what hes doing behind his bunkers when all you have is gateways? the problem the op is having is that hes playing 1 gate fe into two gate into robo which means you dont have an obs in his base fast enough to react to the build after hes already chosen to go the safe build.
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I see that a lot, and almost never lose to it. I usually open robo w/o colossus, build an observer and a few immortals, and switch to double ups while taking a third. If your observer scouts their third CC in their base, move out with stalker/sentry/immortal/zealot (he won't have any drops anytime soon) and sit near his third. Depending on the map, you will probably be able to deny his third and force him to build up a real army before taking a third. Take your own third behind this, so you won't actually be behind on workers.
Make sure you can get storms out before their counter, or you lose with no t3.
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In my oppinion your goal should rather be to keep his third orbital from floating out until your own third is up and running. This way you should be able to catch up in economy and there is no need to go for an all-in or playing from behind for the rest of the game. Since I play Terran, i can only tell you what seems to be an appropriate reaction from my point of view though.
So here are some suggestions what you should do (feel free to discuss/ criticize these - might be that i miss some dangers here since i don't play P)
1. contain with a lot of gateway units and some immortals. Since his tech is delayed, you can afford to tech up a bit slower on your own. This playstyle would enable you to get up your third and catch up in economy. By poking into the natural from time to time you can force him to loose some mining time and snipe some repairing scv. Your Observerpositioning will be quite crucial since drops might be devastating if you don't spot them early.
2. Warpprism harrass or blink Stalkers. Since the Terran will have mostly Marines and a small army, you should be able to deal quite a lot of damage if you can avoid the bunkers. I am not sure about the timings though - blink might be a bit too late if you start it after you spotted the third CC.
3. Outgreed the Terran. If he goes for 3 CC AND double upgrades he will push very late (if he pushes at all before being maxed out). You should be able to cut unitproduction for 1-2 minutes and be at least as greedy as he is. Get your third, double upgrades on your own, and start teching up or just add 4-6 additional gateways. You should have mapcontrol until Terran decides to push, so you should be fine if you can defend against drops.
4. All-in. Well.. it's a gamble - if Terran plays it safe you will probably loose.. no matter what you do.
Anyways - unless you start being REALL greedy immediately, you have to put some pressure on the Terran right away, otherwise he will pull too far ahead. I hope this helps you to find some solutions
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If you want to do a 1-base all-in then I would suggest the void ray all-in rather than a 4-gate. Void Ray all-ins are pretty effective as is vs FE builds and would absolutely smash a 3 CC opening. This obviously is done blind however, and is a lot more effective on some maps (like Antiga) than others.
If you wanted to do a 2-base all-in I would suggest the simple 7-gate. You should be able to break their front with good execution and control if they went 3CC. A plus for a 7-gate is that by the time you have to throw down your additional gates to commit to the 7-gate (~7:20), you should already have gotten clues on the terran's production from poking at their front and seeing their army size. A small army size means either 3 CC or tech, both of which a 7-gate bust will be strong against.
If you don't want to do an all-in though a fast 3rd is also great. I've been practicing fast 3rd builds a lot lately and as far as I can tell it is safe with proper scouting. This will leave you IMO ahead even vs fast 3 CC builds (depending on the timing of your 3rd nexus) because terrans cannot float their 3rd CC down to start mining from until they regain map control. The important thing to remember you do NOT have to get an early robo if you scout a gasless opening from terran, and by skipping the early robo it leaves you the option to go for either a fast 3rd Nexus or 7-gate all-in.
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[/QUOTE] Also, you only ever win because of your opponent's mistakes. [/QUOTE]
True, but the scouting/strategic mistakes are rather binary, he spotted your fourgates or he didnt. Whereas mechanical mistakes are more varied and better for deciding who is the more skilled player imho ^^
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Actually whenever I fast 3rd CC v Toss it never seems to pay off. DeMuslim even mentioned this on his stream that it's not worth the expense. As a rank 2 master terran with a successfull fully operating fast 3rd hidden OC, I seem to fail to reach a decent timing.
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I would agree with much of whats been sad, 6-7gate hardcounters it if by some miracle you scout it, and just play for quick ups, a fast 3rd and deny the floating out to the terran 3rd and you can stay pretty much even.
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When I do this 'kas' build, I fear the 2 base 2 colossus push. Push out with your first colossus and your second one rallied and take out the bunkers with them. Problem is though, you would have had to have been already planning this. The only way to really scout that they went for a 3rd orbital is with your obs. So the short answer is that there's no real way to punish this. By the time you've scouted it, it's already paid for itself and more. As a masters t, 90% of the Protoss I play do some sort of 2 base all in regardless of what I'm doing though:/
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On March 07 2012 03:00 DoctorFunk wrote: When I do this 'kas' build, I fear the 2 base 2 colossus push. Push out with your first colossus and your second one rallied and take out the bunkers with them. Problem is though, you would have had to have been already planning this. The only way to really scout that they went for a 3rd orbital is with your obs. So the short answer is that there's no real way to punish this. By the time you've scouted it, it's already paid for itself and more. As a masters t, 90% of the Protoss I play do some sort of 2 base all in regardless of what I'm doing though:/
This is kinda how I feel when I've played against it more recently. Even forcing him to lift off the 3rd w/ a reactionary collossus push, lose some scvs, and pull back to my own 3rd with minimal losses, he usually still has a very big bio ball that can drop u in 3 places and end the game or just roll u if u dont zone and position absolutely perfectly.
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Ive been getting rolled by aggressive Toss players recently when I go for 1 rax expo into 4 rax or something similar. A proxy 10 gate or aggressive blink stalker play (slightly more all-inish) are both super strong ways of hurting a Terran that is trying to expo at their Natural instead of floating down later. If they dont get a bunker at their ramp stalkers can be incredibly strong harassers. Additionally if they are relying on lots of bio early on collossi + 6gates off two base is incredibly strong. Basically you can have 2-3 collossi when they are getting their first medivacs/vikings out if you put on some simple zealot/stalker pressure early on.
EDIT: You mentioned the 2 base collossi play in your original post but I think youre underestimating the power of a couple collossi against a terran without any vikings. With the range you should be able to just rain down hell on them without taking much, if any, damage.
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On March 07 2012 03:13 Depetrify wrote: Don't try to punish it.
Just let the Terran ride a 30-50 supply advantage into the 13-15 min mark?
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I think fast 3rd CC is just strong against standard FE -> robo openings. The standard 1 gate FE to 3 gate robo is put in an awkward position because it's not greedy enough to keep up and it's not aggressive enough to punish. My suggestion is to just try other styles and see what you like. Every build will be at a disadvantage in some situations, but if you vary your style of play, you won't get caught in a rut against one build that just beats you every time.
iamke55's fast third behind gateway pressure should be good against the triple orbital build. The initial pressure will be strong against Terran's thin defense, Terran will be afraid to float over to his third, and the triple orbital build has delayed tech and can't exploit the 2-medivac timing which is a weak point in iamke55's build.
This opening is also good against the triple orbital build because the triple orbital build has delayed tech and will be very vulnerable to a 12 minute chargelot/templar timing. Just take a 10 minute third and attack at 12 minutes--don't worry about the dark shrine or the warp prism. Terran won't have more than a ghost or 2, so you can just attack.
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Yeah I don't know what people are talking about with doing one base all ins to punish this. You won't be able to scout it in time unless he builds it by his rocks on shattered temple or something. And even then, you should already have your expo building even if it's like a 30-35 nex. Just do a strong two base timing. Unless you're bad, you should be able to do enough damage to equalize, assuming you didn't cut probes.
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It's really popular on KR ladder and quite frustrating to deal with. You can see how Genius dealt with it in the semifinals of last GSL - he went double forge and bay at the same time into < 10 minutes third. I haven't got a chance to test it yet, but it seemed pretty good.
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On March 07 2012 05:59 habermas wrote: It's really popular on KR ladder and quite frustrating to deal with. You can see how Genius dealt with it in the semifinals of last GSL - he went double forge and bay at the same time into < 10 minutes third. I haven't got a chance to test it yet, but it seemed pretty good.
Seems like a Korea meta game thing (unless he scouted it, I haven't seen the game you're referring to) I don't think it's common enough to just do this blindly, and still an equal supply bio force with stim at this point could probably kill ur army and deny that 3rd if ur both xpanding. Imo.
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My favourite is just to do heavy pressure after an expo and then take a fast third while im doing that. It hold off basically anything the terran can do but a fast banshee opener if you get too greedy.
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