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I am a mid/high masters protoss player (Currently at 500 points with 100 bonus points as I haven't played in a week), and I have recently been encountering (and having trouble with) very greedy Terrans. Most recently a terran went Rax, CC, CC 3 more rax, then got quick 1/1 and medivacs.
What am I supposed to do against this? I use the feast build as my opener. I find it lets me take an economic advantage while also sometimes hurting unsafe terrans who don't bunker up. But I can't scout that he is being greedy until I attack with my first warp ins, and even then sometimes I can't actually see that he is being greedy. But if I do see his 3rd CC, how do I play from then on? I have tried heavy 2 base collosus pushes just as they are getting out their first medivacs, but if I push up into their ramp they will just crush me with a superior concave and SCV pull. If I try to expand they should be able to scout it and then just move out when their 1/1, stim, and medivacs all come out and kill it as I will be both behind on tech and upgrades. And even if they don't attack, they are still ahead anyway.
I find that I rarely see terrans play this greedy in pro games, so I just don't know the appropriate way to respond. So any help would be appreciated.
I can supply a replay if requested, however I feel this is more of a "What should I do" thread rather than "What am I doing wrong".
Thanks
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Waiting all the way for Colossi is way too much time, imo. It MIGHT work, but realistically you're giving them so much time that the chances of it actually working are slim, because they'll have gotten their economy fully online and be ahead of you. You either need to be greedy as all hell also, all-in them immediately (like, cancelling my nexus and 4-gating you/just start rushing units over however), or you need to tech to something that's going to take advantage of their greediness and punish them, ie, warp prism play or dts. Dts are counter-intuitive because they have three orbitals, but, they still can be good because the terran will already be spread out with not a lot of stuff yet, and most likely figuring that if you're going to attack at all, it'll be at his front where he has bunkers and a few units. Hope that helps.
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Do you think you could post a couple replays just so I can see exactly what's happening?
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replays or it didn't happen
usually protoss can out greed terran on the upgrade front, allocate all chrono to upgrades and probes, and take a quick third, don't keep gateways idle in favor of constant robo production and upgrades (or constant templar production).
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Hi,
im a Terran player who has started playing this since a few days, it works great against most Ps i meet. I only play high diamond / lower masters, just so you know. I saw this build/play on Demuslims stream.
- its REALLY greedy, you get minerals extremely fast - follow up he used was 5 Rax into 4 gas and tech, take early third if possible.
Obviously every fast 1base play kills this, but you cant know if he threw down a 3rd CC or more Rax, so its a gamble most wont take i guess.
You have to be ready for a 7,5-8min marine poke (out of 4-5 rax) but other than that you dont have much to fear. The best response (demuslim said that also) is fast Colossus and a fast 3rd. You will encounter many marines, marauders come later, so the fast colossus should be safe.
If you dont go 1base agression i dont think you should punish it, but get a third aswell. The production after the 5rax with addons is extreme, you have to hit before that or get set up for a good production yourself imo.
Fast Colossus/Robo should also help you to identify what exactly is going on pretty quickly.
Sorry i cant post exact builds since im terran, just wanted to share my view.
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I have decided what I am doing wrong is choosing between all in, or simply being behind. How I would usually respond would be to get 3 collosus with range and attack while adding on 3-5 extra gateways. I think what I should be doing is not adding on those gateways, and instead getting a third while using the collosus with range to pick at his front.
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Would someone mind posting a direct build order for this greedy terran build? I am having a TON of trouble vs P in macro games lately and this sounds like it could be an answer for me.
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Without seeing the replays, I can't know, but this seems too much of a middle of the road solution. It's more efficient and effective to choose either a big push to punish the greedy play or to get a third of your own. To try and do both splits your resources too much.
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There is a recent TvP build that forgoes a robo in favor of more units, gateway tech, and economy. I'll look for it now and edit this post with the link. Also,Would someone mind posting a direct build order for this greedy terran build? I am having a TON of trouble vs P in macro games lately and this sounds like it could be an answer for me. You can find this build on a certain Day9 daily, pre-400. I think it's the 396th daily or something like that. You can find it on Day9tv.Blip.tv
EDIT: Found it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312133
I forgot to say, this guide says a couple things:
A. Hard to execute.
B. Will put you on even ground with a triple orbital build if executed correctly.
C. You must default to MC's 1gate FE linked to in the guide if you scout a number of things, such as him taking gas before expanding.
EDIT: I can't believe I missed this before. It is required to post a replay in [H] threads, always. Every time.
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MKP used the 3cc build alot during MLG last week vs. Protoss, he also went almost undefeated vs protoss. MvP and MMA use this build a lot in the GSL, it is becoming very popular tvp opening. Just posting to let you know there are many many vods out there with this build, so its not as new as you think. Day9 covered Kas's version of the build.
IMO if you are not going to take a quick 3rd yourself as protoss (that would be my personal favored response) you need to do damage early on. The increased mules and minerals will allow Terran build a very fast sizeable army of MM that will be hard to deal with later.
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nevermind, I was confused about your wording.
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On March 06 2012 23:35 Fencer710 wrote:There is a recent TvP build that forgoes a robo in favor of more units, gateway tech, and economy. I'll look for it now and edit this post with the link. Also, Show nested quote +Would someone mind posting a direct build order for this greedy terran build? I am having a TON of trouble vs P in macro games lately and this sounds like it could be an answer for me. You can find this build on a certain Day9 daily, pre-400. I think it's the 396th daily or something like that. You can find it on Day9tv.Blip.tv EDIT: Found it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312133I forgot to say, this guide says a couple things: A. Hard to execute. B. Will put you on even ground with a triple orbital build if executed correctly. C. You must default to MC's 1gate FE linked to in the guide if you scout a number of things, such as him taking gas before expanding.
this is an excellent walk-through every protoss should read imo
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From a Terran perspective, you can easily be just as greedy and easily delay tech for gateway upgrades and a fast 3rd+gas.
I don't know what the "feast" build is, but it is scary when the protoss forgoes tech to power his econ and gateway army heavily. One of the best first gas investments is your upgrades in all MUs, and so a fast first upgrade means you're ahead even if you don't chrono it out and begin the next immediately. It also lends itself well to a twilight tech transition (chargelot archon into storm is hard to attack into). The problems with it is you may be playing "in the dark" (late robo for obs/low collosus count which may have been blind countered by vikings) and/or T allins before your investments really kick in.
When you're playing against a fast 3 OC Terran, he will not do the midgame timing attack until much later (relatively) because of delayed tech by delaying gas so long and going for 1/1. No Terran wants to push before medivacs into post 7 minute Protoss army. You should have your own 1/1 with some chargelots and archons with storm on the way and plenty of gates to reinforce out of. This stresses the power of the Protoss late-game relative to the Terran and gives you a chance to flat out win if his timing does not do much damage but he loses a significant amount of army.
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If your playing safe and getting three gate robo your pretty far behind, best response I've found once you spot this kind of play with your observer is fast collosi either to defend an expansion or for and all in.
They wont have the vikings/medivacs to deal with collosi efficiently due to the ultra late starport.
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3 gate robo is actually pretty good against a super greedy ultra-fast expand. What you do is wait for 3-4 immortals and attack. You focus immortals on bunkers and use generous guardian shields and forcefields. He won't have much of an army to defend since he double expo'd.
Too many people are ashamed of going "all-in". I think it's more shameful to allow your opponent to play greedy and thinking you're a fool.
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On March 07 2012 00:51 xtruder wrote: 3 gate robo is actually pretty good against a super greedy ultra-fast expand. What you do is wait for 3-4 immortals and attack. You focus immortals on bunkers and use generous guardian shields and forcefields. He won't have much of an army to defend since he double expo'd.
Too many people are ashamed of going "all-in". I think it's more shameful to allow your opponent to play greedy and thinking you're a fool.
He will have more units than a normal terran build at the immortal timming, the mules/base/upgrades will have kicked in by then
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In PVT I tend to open with Naniwa's nexus first expand explained here: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-420-p1-naniwa-s-pvt-opening-5961533. This allows me to both be greedy myself, deal with early pressure, and take a fast third while teching to colossi. This early pressure against greedy Terrans often times will win the game out right. If you do not win, you will do economic damage and take a fast third. You'll be going into the mid/late game at least on even footing if not ahead. 3 notes on your early pressure: (1) It is pressure and not an all in, so don't over commit. (2) sentrys in back, guardian shield zealots in front, micro back hurt sentrys/ stalkers. Be liberal with your force fields you should have 6 sentries and ample energy. (3) Macro at home.
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This is the game i meant:
http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/310636555 00:42:00
there you could see a build like that from T point of view for timings or smth. its a really good opening if no 1base play is comming.
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On March 07 2012 00:54 Rotcod wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 00:51 xtruder wrote: 3 gate robo is actually pretty good against a super greedy ultra-fast expand. What you do is wait for 3-4 immortals and attack. You focus immortals on bunkers and use generous guardian shields and forcefields. He won't have much of an army to defend since he double expo'd.
Too many people are ashamed of going "all-in". I think it's more shameful to allow your opponent to play greedy and thinking you're a fool. He will have more units than a normal terran build at the immortal timming, the mules/base/upgrades will have kicked in by then
?! It takes ~5 minutes from the start of build time for an expansion to kick in unless you cut workers. The third CC starts at about 5:30, so any sort of all-in before 10:30 gives the army advantage to protoss. Also to go Barracks/CC/CC you can't start mining gas before 6:00, so you can all-in before stim hits.
What about chronoing out +1 armor and doing some sort of 6gate or 7gate push with a bunch of sentries? You should have the superior army at that point, and between guardian shield and FFs you should be able to bust the bunkers. If the attack fails you have a reasonable transition to Zealot/Archon/HT, or you can use DTs to stall while you set up your economy & more upgreades.
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On March 07 2012 01:20 Sated wrote: If I scout any sort of gasless build from a Terran then I do a one-base 5gate all-in. I personally do it out of a 2gate opening, but if you were going for a 1gate opening then you'd probably still be able to do it - just spend all your remaining chronoboosts on Warpgate Research and throw down additional Gateways instead of throwing down an expansion. In my experience, it works more than it fails, even if it isn't completely fool-proof.
To be honest, the only reason Terrans (and Zergs) think they can get away with such greedy builds is because people are so apologetic about cheesing (or abhor it to the point where they think it is wrong to cheese). Play to win, not to meet some sort of macro-standard.
I agree that we should all in vs unsafe builds but gasless expo into three rax is save vs fourgate if you scout it and pull scvs, you're I think your only getting the wins due to opponents mistakes which isnt really a great way too play imo.
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On March 07 2012 01:30 ZeroTalent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 00:54 Rotcod wrote:On March 07 2012 00:51 xtruder wrote: 3 gate robo is actually pretty good against a super greedy ultra-fast expand. What you do is wait for 3-4 immortals and attack. You focus immortals on bunkers and use generous guardian shields and forcefields. He won't have much of an army to defend since he double expo'd.
Too many people are ashamed of going "all-in". I think it's more shameful to allow your opponent to play greedy and thinking you're a fool. He will have more units than a normal terran build at the immortal timming, the mules/base/upgrades will have kicked in by then ?! It takes ~5 minutes from the start of build time for an expansion to kick in unless you cut workers. The third CC starts at about 5:30, so any sort of all-in before 10:30 gives the army advantage to protoss. Also to go Barracks/CC/CC you can't start mining gas before 6:00, so you can all-in before stim hits. What about chronoing out +1 armor and doing some sort of 6gate or 7gate push with a bunch of sentries? You should have the superior army at that point, and between guardian shield and FFs you should be able to bust the bunkers. If the attack fails you have a reasonable transition to Zealot/Archon/HT, or you can use DTs to stall while you set up your economy & more upgreades.
I'm pretty sure 5 mins is the incorrect payback time especially with mules, you got a source? As for 7 gate, may I ask how you are scouting what hes doing behind his bunkers when all you have is gateways? the problem the op is having is that hes playing 1 gate fe into two gate into robo which means you dont have an obs in his base fast enough to react to the build after hes already chosen to go the safe build.
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I see that a lot, and almost never lose to it. I usually open robo w/o colossus, build an observer and a few immortals, and switch to double ups while taking a third. If your observer scouts their third CC in their base, move out with stalker/sentry/immortal/zealot (he won't have any drops anytime soon) and sit near his third. Depending on the map, you will probably be able to deny his third and force him to build up a real army before taking a third. Take your own third behind this, so you won't actually be behind on workers.
Make sure you can get storms out before their counter, or you lose with no t3.
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In my oppinion your goal should rather be to keep his third orbital from floating out until your own third is up and running. This way you should be able to catch up in economy and there is no need to go for an all-in or playing from behind for the rest of the game. Since I play Terran, i can only tell you what seems to be an appropriate reaction from my point of view though.
So here are some suggestions what you should do (feel free to discuss/ criticize these - might be that i miss some dangers here since i don't play P)
1. contain with a lot of gateway units and some immortals. Since his tech is delayed, you can afford to tech up a bit slower on your own. This playstyle would enable you to get up your third and catch up in economy. By poking into the natural from time to time you can force him to loose some mining time and snipe some repairing scv. Your Observerpositioning will be quite crucial since drops might be devastating if you don't spot them early.
2. Warpprism harrass or blink Stalkers. Since the Terran will have mostly Marines and a small army, you should be able to deal quite a lot of damage if you can avoid the bunkers. I am not sure about the timings though - blink might be a bit too late if you start it after you spotted the third CC.
3. Outgreed the Terran. If he goes for 3 CC AND double upgrades he will push very late (if he pushes at all before being maxed out). You should be able to cut unitproduction for 1-2 minutes and be at least as greedy as he is. Get your third, double upgrades on your own, and start teching up or just add 4-6 additional gateways. You should have mapcontrol until Terran decides to push, so you should be fine if you can defend against drops.
4. All-in. Well.. it's a gamble - if Terran plays it safe you will probably loose.. no matter what you do.
Anyways - unless you start being REALL greedy immediately, you have to put some pressure on the Terran right away, otherwise he will pull too far ahead. I hope this helps you to find some solutions
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If you want to do a 1-base all-in then I would suggest the void ray all-in rather than a 4-gate. Void Ray all-ins are pretty effective as is vs FE builds and would absolutely smash a 3 CC opening. This obviously is done blind however, and is a lot more effective on some maps (like Antiga) than others.
If you wanted to do a 2-base all-in I would suggest the simple 7-gate. You should be able to break their front with good execution and control if they went 3CC. A plus for a 7-gate is that by the time you have to throw down your additional gates to commit to the 7-gate (~7:20), you should already have gotten clues on the terran's production from poking at their front and seeing their army size. A small army size means either 3 CC or tech, both of which a 7-gate bust will be strong against.
If you don't want to do an all-in though a fast 3rd is also great. I've been practicing fast 3rd builds a lot lately and as far as I can tell it is safe with proper scouting. This will leave you IMO ahead even vs fast 3 CC builds (depending on the timing of your 3rd nexus) because terrans cannot float their 3rd CC down to start mining from until they regain map control. The important thing to remember you do NOT have to get an early robo if you scout a gasless opening from terran, and by skipping the early robo it leaves you the option to go for either a fast 3rd Nexus or 7-gate all-in.
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[/QUOTE] Also, you only ever win because of your opponent's mistakes. [/QUOTE]
True, but the scouting/strategic mistakes are rather binary, he spotted your fourgates or he didnt. Whereas mechanical mistakes are more varied and better for deciding who is the more skilled player imho ^^
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Actually whenever I fast 3rd CC v Toss it never seems to pay off. DeMuslim even mentioned this on his stream that it's not worth the expense. As a rank 2 master terran with a successfull fully operating fast 3rd hidden OC, I seem to fail to reach a decent timing.
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I would agree with much of whats been sad, 6-7gate hardcounters it if by some miracle you scout it, and just play for quick ups, a fast 3rd and deny the floating out to the terran 3rd and you can stay pretty much even.
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When I do this 'kas' build, I fear the 2 base 2 colossus push. Push out with your first colossus and your second one rallied and take out the bunkers with them. Problem is though, you would have had to have been already planning this. The only way to really scout that they went for a 3rd orbital is with your obs. So the short answer is that there's no real way to punish this. By the time you've scouted it, it's already paid for itself and more. As a masters t, 90% of the Protoss I play do some sort of 2 base all in regardless of what I'm doing though:/
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On March 07 2012 03:00 DoctorFunk wrote: When I do this 'kas' build, I fear the 2 base 2 colossus push. Push out with your first colossus and your second one rallied and take out the bunkers with them. Problem is though, you would have had to have been already planning this. The only way to really scout that they went for a 3rd orbital is with your obs. So the short answer is that there's no real way to punish this. By the time you've scouted it, it's already paid for itself and more. As a masters t, 90% of the Protoss I play do some sort of 2 base all in regardless of what I'm doing though:/
This is kinda how I feel when I've played against it more recently. Even forcing him to lift off the 3rd w/ a reactionary collossus push, lose some scvs, and pull back to my own 3rd with minimal losses, he usually still has a very big bio ball that can drop u in 3 places and end the game or just roll u if u dont zone and position absolutely perfectly.
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Ive been getting rolled by aggressive Toss players recently when I go for 1 rax expo into 4 rax or something similar. A proxy 10 gate or aggressive blink stalker play (slightly more all-inish) are both super strong ways of hurting a Terran that is trying to expo at their Natural instead of floating down later. If they dont get a bunker at their ramp stalkers can be incredibly strong harassers. Additionally if they are relying on lots of bio early on collossi + 6gates off two base is incredibly strong. Basically you can have 2-3 collossi when they are getting their first medivacs/vikings out if you put on some simple zealot/stalker pressure early on.
EDIT: You mentioned the 2 base collossi play in your original post but I think youre underestimating the power of a couple collossi against a terran without any vikings. With the range you should be able to just rain down hell on them without taking much, if any, damage.
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On March 07 2012 03:13 Depetrify wrote: Don't try to punish it.
Just let the Terran ride a 30-50 supply advantage into the 13-15 min mark?
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I think fast 3rd CC is just strong against standard FE -> robo openings. The standard 1 gate FE to 3 gate robo is put in an awkward position because it's not greedy enough to keep up and it's not aggressive enough to punish. My suggestion is to just try other styles and see what you like. Every build will be at a disadvantage in some situations, but if you vary your style of play, you won't get caught in a rut against one build that just beats you every time.
iamke55's fast third behind gateway pressure should be good against the triple orbital build. The initial pressure will be strong against Terran's thin defense, Terran will be afraid to float over to his third, and the triple orbital build has delayed tech and can't exploit the 2-medivac timing which is a weak point in iamke55's build.
This opening is also good against the triple orbital build because the triple orbital build has delayed tech and will be very vulnerable to a 12 minute chargelot/templar timing. Just take a 10 minute third and attack at 12 minutes--don't worry about the dark shrine or the warp prism. Terran won't have more than a ghost or 2, so you can just attack.
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Yeah I don't know what people are talking about with doing one base all ins to punish this. You won't be able to scout it in time unless he builds it by his rocks on shattered temple or something. And even then, you should already have your expo building even if it's like a 30-35 nex. Just do a strong two base timing. Unless you're bad, you should be able to do enough damage to equalize, assuming you didn't cut probes.
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It's really popular on KR ladder and quite frustrating to deal with. You can see how Genius dealt with it in the semifinals of last GSL - he went double forge and bay at the same time into < 10 minutes third. I haven't got a chance to test it yet, but it seemed pretty good.
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On March 07 2012 05:59 habermas wrote: It's really popular on KR ladder and quite frustrating to deal with. You can see how Genius dealt with it in the semifinals of last GSL - he went double forge and bay at the same time into < 10 minutes third. I haven't got a chance to test it yet, but it seemed pretty good.
Seems like a Korea meta game thing (unless he scouted it, I haven't seen the game you're referring to) I don't think it's common enough to just do this blindly, and still an equal supply bio force with stim at this point could probably kill ur army and deny that 3rd if ur both xpanding. Imo.
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My favourite is just to do heavy pressure after an expo and then take a fast third while im doing that. It hold off basically anything the terran can do but a fast banshee opener if you get too greedy.
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I'm really bad at this game, but I manage to take out 50%~ masters on NA somehow so take my opinion lightly. I think the best way to beat this was shown by Vines and Sage on kr server. If they see greedy terran or gasless fast expand they get an expand via 1gate expo or nexus first. Either one they then get a zealot and stalker chrono boosted out and then take a fast third base at like 6ish minutes. Somewhere in there they get a second gas and push out some sentries from the one gateway and then add on 6 more gates and do a 10~ minute timing attack. The attack isn't all in because of fast third and you can pull back and add more gasses while getting robo, double forge, then twilight to macro hard and just defend on three base till 170-180 food. From there usually they add more gates and then take a 4th and 5th relatively close to the same time while they move out. It's situation and all the terran I play are 1/1/1 or some other stupid all in types, so I don't have too many concrete details. Hope that helps ^^
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You should always be poking at the ramp to count the marine (marine and by marine shots) to determine what they could be possibly doing if you do not have a robo. From there you can determine if you should pressure or not. If it's a few, your initial pressure should do some damage to him with the typical 3g robo. Maybe I do my 3g Robo differently but I constantly make units from the gateway before warpgate and then warp in and pressure in this case.
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Just do Parting's build, easy wins.
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I've started to encounter this with every terran that I'm playing. It's been getting so predictable that I've just been doing 7 gate allins in response to the one bunker that they build, which makes an easy win. Just two cents from a masters protoss.
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Scout and take third base yourself or be prepared to do a heavy 2 base timing. /thread
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I can always beat a greedy terran w/ the feast opening if they go double cc o.O its kinda hard to lose just have the 1 zeal 5 stalkers in the front and u can walk past bunkers or break it if they arent ready
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