I've been noticing less and less pro level Zergs trying to reach that killer flock of mutas in their ZvT's. When they do, it doesn't seem nearly as strong as it used to be. I imagine that their use will continue to decline for a few reasons.
Terrans are going for faster bio upgrades and delaying their siege tech longer. This is due in part to Terrans trying to match the double evo upgrades of the ever increasingly popular ling/infestor, but as a byproduct it reduces the effectiveness of mutas even more. Muta balls slow down Zerg upgrades as well as delaying their hive tech. It's not uncommon to see 3/3 marines vs 1/1 or 2/1 lings with barely upgraded mutas. Take Zenio vs MMA last season in code S, there was a game where MMA was 3/2 bio vs Zenio's 1/1 lings and 1/0 mutas. And what about DRG the current king of Zerg in last seasons code S semi-finals?
Yep, he falls victim to the same thing (he lost that game). At that point you start losing mutas left and right to the most common of 8 marine medivac drops, and they'll flat out disintegrate vs a bio ball without a ton of support.
Banelings are a critical part of using mutalisks, but top tier Terran micro is disgusting. Using banelings against a T who knows how to split and focus fire tanks is incredibly inefficient, especially off creep. It's also important to note that more macro centric builds are getting increasingly more popular for T. I could even say that an early third for Terran is fairly common. When you start trading inefficiently against a Terran who knows how to keep up in economy, it puts you in a very bad position.
At the moment I'm watching Idra's stream and every single ZvT he's been playing lately has been ling/infestor. Even Idra the king of stubbornness in his 2 base muta play is changing his style around.
I don't see any way around the problems facing mutalisk play, do you?
Mutalisks don't belong off 2base lair builds in ZvT. I actually think they have a use later in the game even if you've gone infestor - If you end up at ling/infestor/ultra, it's okay to go mutalisks.
But classical muta/ing/baneling is so hard countered by the most standard of terran play, A lot of high tier zergs just like it because of the micro potential but honestly, it relies on your opponent making mistakes which they should never make.
It would make me really sad if the mutalisk is phased out in ZvT. It gives such dynamic and harass-based matches, watching DRG manage to squeeze himself between turrets and sniping medivacs is beautiful. Infestors are nice too but it's more stating and boring imo.
I used to play 2 base muta style, but recently I've been having so much trouble against macro oriented terran builds that I've switched to infestor style, which I haven't used since months. I think muta can still be viable in the match-up, but it will require a much faster third base imo.
If people split their banelings, they might be more effective. Not even in the GSL (as far as I've seen) has anyone ever split their banelings to avoid splash from tanks and collosus. I think if they did that, they could do the same damage with less banelings, and use the extra gas to get mutas.
I tend to make my spire very late, sometimes even after my third is getting saturated (about 13-14 minute muta), on the ground I get roach/bling/ling to defend, I only get mutas when i have a breathing room to. I am trying to tech to hive as soon as possible after 75 drones to get BLs so I can start pushing terran. I used to get a lot of infestors midgame but now I don't like the fact that a good terran can just drop you all day because you have 0 air control. I found myself very difficult to survive midgame drops with infestors.
Oh by the way, I do get +2melee/+2carapace/roach speed/bling speed before getting spire
On March 16 2012 08:29 lhr0909 wrote: I tend to make my spire very late, sometimes even after my third is getting saturated (about 13-14 minute muta), on the ground I get roach/bling/ling to defend, I only get mutas when i have a breathing room to. I am trying to tech to hive as soon as possible after 75 drones to get BLs so I can start pushing terran. I used to get a lot of infestors midgame but now I don't like the fact that a good terran can just drop you all day because you have 0 air control. I found myself very difficult to survive midgame drops with infestors.
Oh by the way, I do get +2melee/+2carapace/roach speed/bling speed before getting spire
If you're getting 2/2 and hive, then why even bother to make mutas? Is it only for defending drops? With proper multi-task and overlord spread it's certainly feasible to deal with drops without mutas. The thread was more directed at the trends in pro level play.
I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
I think it's more of a timing thing. Recent top level tournaments have featured many players using infestor-ling openings against terran perhaps making it look more common than it really is.
However, of the three I saw (Stephano, Losira...and someone else who's name is escaping me) it didn't seem to perform that well. I think that overall, mutas in TvZ are a better choice simply for the pressure they put on rapidly expanding terrans and such.
My ZvT has taken a bit of a nosedive lately (I'm still a muta/ling/bling player) as Terran marine upgrades are just so strong. But I still really dislike ling/infestor style vs Terran as I feel it leaves you WAY too open to drops, and its only a matter of time before Terrans start abusing the crap out of that fact.
On March 16 2012 08:26 jrkirby wrote: If people split their banelings, they might be more effective. Not even in the GSL (as far as I've seen) has anyone ever split their banelings to avoid splash from tanks and collosus. I think if they did that, they could do the same damage with less banelings, and use the extra gas to get mutas.
If people individually fired banelings with tanks, then you'd need less tanks, and could use extra gas to get more medivacs.
Possible, but highly unrealistic seeing as it is so difficult to split banelings while micro'ing ten other things, similar to how you would never individually target separate lings or banelings with each tank.
Mutalisk play is just so damn fragile, fly them over a bunch of marines intercepting? Gamelosing moment. Terran maxes out? Oh snap son all those mutas kept you at lair tech forever, gl hf killing that army bro. Terran adds a single thor to his marine/tank push? Now those mutas are dead supply since you can't stack up and snipe tanks anymore.
Mutalisks are definitely going out of style and I think it's just because of the relative "ease" of using infestors, since you can fight the terran army head on and you don't have to constantly be harassing/defending drops with mutalisks. On the other hand, I feel that going infestors means you have less of a grasp on the pace of the game, and you kind of play passively until you can get units that you can actually attack siege lines with.
All in all, I still stick to mutas just because I'm more comfortable using them and can micro pretty well. Although, on certain maps, ling/infestor is the way to go and I really ought to develop that style.
If I go Muta/Ling/Bane, I only get around 10-14 mutas no ups (solely for drop defense), while keeping up with upgrades and then teching to Infestors. Huge muta flock in current state of the game is just so hard to get to with Terrans rushing ups.
upgrades are a bit to strong in sc2, compared to staying low on upgrades and do damage. Its just easier to upgrade and there is only a small window for tactics involving delaying upgrades. I think Blizzard should balance a bit around there, to add some variety. As for muta play, always disliked that its an option to mass a harassment unit and win a straight up fight. So personally i never used them that way and just kept my small muta team to snipe tanks and medivacs and see no problem with it. The problem is more that zerg forgot again that upgrades are extremely important in sc2 and cut corners at the wrong spots.
Like terrans got reaped shortly after the upgrade buff for toss, because double forge became popular again, while 1 ebay was common. Zerg can probably work the longest with being behind on upgrades, but at pro level units life just way longer and so upgrades help more, so zergs will have to adapt there. (like terrans have adapted to zerg playstyle)
It's all map dependent. The current trends of maps are very anti-muta, possibly for ZvP reasons, but mainly because of 2 base all in reasons. Hence, lots of chokes and easy 3 bases.
If Taldarim style maps return in force, you will see mutas... a lot. If maps like Antiga continue to roll out, I cant see mutas staying around. Terran macro builds are literally amazing on that map, and super safe too.
I think mutas are best used in ZvP. Terran has wwwaaayyy to much amazing and easily upgradeable anti air at their disposal, you have marines, very high dps, can stim, be healed by medivacs, turrets which can be upgraded and repaired, and thors where 1 shot off is worse than a storm because you can at least move out of a storm before full damage has been done onto you. Stephano's ling/infestor style is the way to go it seems.
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
I'll quote you all day. The number of times I've seen 1/0 mutas get lunched by 3/3 marines is unreal. The thing I do have to wonder though is that in the final of GSL november we saw leenock go double spire in that game on tal'darim. So the pros have known about it for a long time. I struggle to believe it hasn't been tested in practice, so the only explanation I can find for it not catching on is that zergs have found it less effective than going down a different route entirely. Seems a shame really as getting fast 3/3 air always sounded like a good set up for broodlords.
This is one of the reasons I got so annoyed with the muta nerf in ZvP.
Mutalisks are a dying unit in SC2
They have already become useless in ZvT, they have failed finding use in ZvZ, and now, they are basically worthless in ZvP.
I made the suggestion before the nerf, and plenty were quick to laugh at the absurdity of my statement, but I am happy to restate the same exact thing.
Mutas were never known for their unrivaled power, otherwise we would see them dominating all match-ups. Rather, the very reason they were so hated by Protoss is the reason why they are bad units in general.
Mutas don't deliver.
While Mutalisks can be good momentarily, in high-level SC2, they do not offer a way to seal a game... More often, by choosing to go muta, the Zerg player is commiting himself to a very weak midgame army and hoping to win through an unchecked mass expansion followup or a bad base trade for his opponent.
Mutalisks should have been buffed, not nerfed. They are quickly losing viability in general, essentially leaving Zerg with the fewest viable units in any matchup. zerglings and roaches are now making up at least 90% of every Zerg army in all matchups and this trend has no signs of slowing down.
Thanks Blizzard for boxing me in to ling/roach in all MUs, that's what makes for interesting games.
Mutas are only good against certain builds. Generally I agree they aren't very good, but if you focus on double upgrades and make smaller muta numbers, you can still get the small benefits (like picking off tanks and drops) while keeping up with the terran. In some cases you are really forced into mutas for map control (like against mech's blue flame hellions or banshees), but you don't want to make a lot.
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
Those are so damn slow to get going that I could see it as a problem. By the time you get 1/1 upgrades going with 5 mutas out I could have gotten 6 pathogen gland infestors. The strength between those two is night and day when it comes to holding off midgame pushes.
I think muras are going to fill a more unseen role in ZvT, as it forces Terran to make a Thor or two and try and turret EVERYTHING if you use them right. You can threaten reactors, upgrades, and new bases as well as deny drops. It'll force Terran to slow down their pushes and expos.
You only need like 10 mutas without ups if you're careful with them and tuck them in areas where marines can't get you.
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
I feel like the issue with going double Spire to keep even in upgrades is the cost of the Spire: 200/200 for the building is a lot to double down on compared to the 150/0 cost of a Forge, 125/0 cost of an Engineering Bay, or 75+drone / 0 cost of an Evolution Chamber ... it also takes 100 seconds to morph a spire compared to 35 seconds for the Engineering Bay or 45 seconds of a Forge. Also, flyer carapace costs more than Infantry Armor / Ground Armor / Ground Weapons / Infantry weapons, etc.
I feel like you're investing a hell of a lot more into structures to just stay even on upgrades at best.
Please also remember in winter arena finals where DRG demolished MKP with mutas on Shakuras. Mutas are quite good but: a) they are map dependent, as they are great on maps like Shakuras or Taldarim but trash on ones like Cloud Kingdom or entombed. b) They are really hard to use compared to the alternatives.
Playing ling infestor is pretty braindead and doesn't require much skill. You don't have to make many hard judgments about unit allocation or tech timings, while the muta player has to know when he needs to stop adding mutas and tech to hive which is very easy to go wrong with. You don't have to worry about microing too much as infestors are pretty basic while the muta player has to manage their banelings and mutas constantly in fights. Most importantly, the muta player has to babysit their mutas constantly and play very aggressive with harass where if they misclick they can lose everything in seconds, while the infestor player can simply turtle and tech to hive. The only area where the muta player has an easier time is with handling drops, and even then, spare lings/spine precautions by the ling infestor player can make it pretty simple.
Perhaps most importantly post-patch, going muta increases the time you spend on lair tech and thus makes it tougher to survive until hive, when Zerg gains an overwhelming advantage. When you go infestor ling you'll be teching to hive much earlier and thus you really only need to survive one serious threat before you can get your monstrous hive army. On the other hand, the muta player might have to deal with 2-4 threatening moments in the midgame before they can get their hive tech.
Mutas are not objectively weaker and are in many cases a better choice on some maps. However, from a zerg's pov why would you do something exponentially more difficult to gain a minimum benefit in most cases?
double upgraded mutas is not the way to go lol. How will you kill marines if you're spending all your gas on 2 spires and 2 upgrades?
The reason infestors are so popular is because they function like siege tanks. They give you long ranged space control and punish unit clumping.
Mutalisks have a place in ZvT late game I think, just not early like we've seen in the past. Don't worry, they will find their way back in once Terrans learn that starport units are useful in the late game.
With mutas you have to be extremely active with them, you need a decent amount, and most importantly you need to be AGGRESIVELY taking bases with them. The problem with mutas these days arent that herp derp mutas are bad, its that the way people are going mutas is wrong. 2 base + macro hatch into muta is pretty bad these days given the maps and relative ease for terran to take 3 bases, but also its not that hard for zerg to take 3 bases if they open with a few roaches into fast 3rd and even 4th, then goin for mutas as a crutch into a relatively fast hive, 5th base perhaps and a lot of ups whilst defending terrans drops before he goes for his big 3 base death push.
At the moment I see a lot of zergs kinda going for fast-ish 3 bases droning a lil bit but then trying to put on pressure a lil bit and they get caught trying to do to many things at once, whilst not really committing to anything, which is a terrible idea vs a terran who is macroing hard of 3 bases with heavy ups. The benefit of mutas is terran _should_ be relatively scared to move out of his base so because of this you expand a shit tonne around the map and tech. (keeping in mind u should have taken a quick 4th so u will have gas for mutas + tech)
Mutas of course are still good vs 2 base play because terran doesnt have the gas for 2 engi bays, tanks, marines ups, medivacs and thors (if they wish to add in thors)
However with this in mind maps do make a difference in what strat I choose to go with and I am currently trying to perfect the ling infestor into quick ultra style that is pretty good, as it does give you a lot of benefits and generally is easier to play provided you can deal with drops well. To deal with drops the most effective way ive seen/done is to leave 1 infestor at your outskirt bases (Ie usually ur main/3rd/4th depending on what time in game) with some lings maybe 1 or 2 banes if you like to mix banes into your composition and then have 4-5 spines and 1-2 spores for defense as you can afford it as youre generally not trading as much with infestor ling and its not as expensive so you can afford the extra money to put into your defenses, and GET OVIE SPEED for the love of all that is holy when I see players going ling infestor and not get ovie speed to scout for drops, manage expansions and anything else it makes my soul die a lil inside.
*edit* For you Terran players out there, Im gonna tell you how to deal with ling infestor style. MEDIVACS!!!! Terran think tanks are the way to go as they shoot infestors but this is a direct herp-derp-what-unit-counters-what-style. The indirect coutner to infestors is not only dropping the zerg everywhere, but also massing a lot of medivacs AND KEEPING THEM ALIVE. Your medivacs are as important to keep alive as the zergs infestors are. 7-8 Marines with 6-7 medivacs is actually impossible to kill with Fungal growth, and if you can split your shit apart fairly well you will be able to deal with a pretty decent amount of lings/infestors with minimal tank support- like 1 fact tank production.
Second, mix in a few marauders, these are great to stim and try snipe infestors as they melt them, but also takes a fair few fungals to kill, lings take a while to kill them so marines can dps better, and generally u might have some extra gas saved up so it can be good to get I find.
Lastly, dont be afraid to expand quite aggresively against ling infestor style either. Ling infestor into quick ultra is generally really good against terran in head on engagements but can lack if you are stretching them with drops while taking a quickish 4th base whilst macroing really hard on your 3 bases, the thing to watch out for is ling coutner attacks, but if you are pushing them aroudn 14 mins which is standard of 3 early 3 CC timing then they are predominately going to be relying on lings for the meat of their army, so ur 4th should be relatively safe
I've enjoyed playing with heavily upgraded lings with infestors instead of mutas for most of my time in SC2. Double spire really locks in your choice to go for air units and severely strains your ability to tech to hive until super late. Mutas can still work but the increasing level of play from Terrans is making them even more fragile than they were before. Infestors do not need separate upgrades and you get more functionality for the gas you spend. You also need fewer infestors to be a threat to the Terran army. With 4 infestors you spend 600 gas and gain the ability to halt most pushes while you reinforce. Regardless of ling or roach tech, you can double upgrade extremely easily unlike muta styles.
One of the greatest benefits of not using mutas is the ability to tech to Hive much faster and getting a spire only for broodlords in the late game. If you open with a muta style, broods will come later in the game and typically be much harder to use efffectively. If you tech to infestors straight away, you instantly have access to Hive, you get powerful spellcasters that will last for the rest of the game and you allow yourself to expand with the robust mineral heavy economy you build up from ling/roach based armies.
Mutas are a much harder transition to T3. The amount you must invest into a flock is incredibly high and at a certain point, they are simply supply that would be better spent elsewhere. Mutaslisk play is all about taking a lead from harrass early and keeping that lead for the remainder of the game. If your mutas slip into a pocket of marines once or clump up as a Thor pops, your one advantage is lost in a split second. Overall, they are still great units but I think infestors still make more sense on almost any newer map in the pool.
On March 16 2012 10:01 Ver wrote: Please also remember in winter arena finals where DRG demolished MKP with mutas on Shakuras. Mutas are quite good but: a) they are map dependent, as they are great on maps like Shakuras or Taldarim but trash on ones like Cloud Kingdom or entombed. b) They are really hard to use compared to the alternatives.
Playing ling infestor is pretty braindead and doesn't require much skill. You don't have to make many hard judgments about unit allocation or tech timings, while the muta player has to know when he needs to stop adding mutas and tech to hive which is very easy to go wrong with. You don't have to worry about microing too much as infestors are pretty basic while the muta player has to manage their banelings and mutas constantly in fights. Most importantly, the muta player has to babysit their mutas constantly and play very aggressive with harass where if they misclick they can lose everything in seconds, while the infestor player can simply turtle and tech to hive. The only area where the muta player has an easier time is with handling drops, and even then, spare lings/spine precautions by the ling infestor player can make it pretty simple.
Perhaps most importantly post-patch, going muta increases the time you spend on lair tech and thus makes it tougher to survive until hive, when Zerg gains an overwhelming advantage. When you go infestor ling you'll be teching to hive much earlier and thus you really only need to survive one serious threat before you can get your monstrous hive army. On the other hand, the muta player might have to deal with 2-4 threatening moments in the midgame before they can get their hive tech.
Mutas are not objectively weaker and are in many cases a better choice on some maps. However, from a zerg's pov why would you do something exponentially more difficult to gain a minimum benefit in most cases?
I don't disagree with a thing you said, but a little something about that DRG vs MKP game on Shakuras. MKP was in a ridiculously good position with 3 CC's while DRG got his third sniped and was stuck on 2 base. MKP then donates his whole army in a push then tries to move out his third CC with no army which gets killed. In that position the vast majority of the time the Terran is going to come out ahead. DRG kinda lucked out that game.
Terrans are going fast 3rd inbase cc into a 3 base timing, its better to go infestors over all- to get to hive faster with better upgrades for melee for ultras/broods you dont want to be adding on muta count when Terran have 3 bases and good turret placement and then get a late infestation pit with late 2nd evo. + zergs learned that you dont need mutas overall to deal with drops (in most cases) by splitting their lings and better ol spread. I keep atleast an infestor at the outer bases like toss keep hts (for the brave terrans that try doom drops)- otherwise a spine or 2 will buy enough time for your army to get back
The 'secret' of medivacs vs ling-infestor doesn't change the fact that it is inherently a better build than mutas.
I happily choose going ling infestor vs mass drops/mass medivacs any day as they are 1) not killing me, and 2) I can afford rushing ultras or broods to balance out the cost-effectiveness of mass-healed marines before they get out of hand.
The thing with ling infestor is not that it is some gimmicky build that Terrans have yet to figure out, its that it is hands-down better than mutas, end of discussion.
This is not to say that mutas are useless, but to point out that if either of those strategies is gimmicky, its the muta-based ones, not the infestors.
Mutalisks will always have a role simply because they, like all forms of harass, can be potentially game-winning when successfully used. Terran has gotten so used to deflecting Mutas though, and unlike hellions and banshees using mutas means you are significantly weakening your midgame forces. Depending on the map and how terran opens they can still be a very good choice though, especially if the terran is going to be abusing drop play as many do.
We're going to see an evolution in how mutas are used in the next little while, I think. Rushing them off 2 bases is probably a thing of the past, but people will find ways to use them.
On March 16 2012 08:11 darkscream wrote: Mutalisks don't belong off 2base lair builds in ZvT. I actually think they have a use later in the game even if you've gone infestor - If you end up at ling/infestor/ultra, it's okay to go mutalisks.
But classical muta/ing/baneling is so hard countered by the most standard of terran play, A lot of high tier zergs just like it because of the micro potential but honestly, it relies on your opponent making mistakes which they should never make.
... Uh. Every time someone is dumb enough to try a lategame muta transition, I laugh at their shitty upgrades on mutas, inability to win a single battle vs a full fledged macro terran with any decent number of marine tank medivac thor, and smile when I realize that they're gonna have almost no infestors, broodlords, or ultras.
Seriously, I can't think of a single reason to transition to lategame mutas..
Shouldn't really be surprising that Terrans have gotten progressively better at defending muta harass. Mutalisk play hasn't really evolved significantly compared to normal Terran TvZ builds which are leaning towards double upgrades and quick third orbital. AFAIK Leenock is the only one to ever do double spire in GSL. It's been obvious for eons how easy it is to kill mutalisks, which are usually not even upgraded past +1 or +2, when fielding a bunch of upgraded marines with medivacs.
Also, a strength long-associated with mutalisk play was that you could shut down drops - nowadays people realise if you just split up groups of zerglings with an infestor drops are really easy to deal with another way. This is just one of many reasons infestors are a lot more favoured than they have been in the past.
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
Actually, nestea tried it out in z v p against genius where he went double spire. leenock tried double spire a few times against terran, but they both lost. I think its viable but just the meta game is not suited for mutalisk play currently since terrans have now brought along a few thors with them and know its fine to spam auto turrets around their base.
On March 16 2012 09:01 Micket wrote: It's all map dependent. The current trends of maps are very anti-muta, possibly for ZvP reasons, but mainly because of 2 base all in reasons. Hence, lots of chokes and easy 3 bases.
If Taldarim style maps return in force, you will see mutas... a lot. If maps like Antiga continue to roll out, I cant see mutas staying around. Terran macro builds are literally amazing on that map, and super safe too.
@Jermstuddog I wasn't implying that ling infestor is gimmicky i just know a lot of terrans are qqing about it and that definitely helps deal with the problem of wtf do I do agaisnt these infestors when fungal destroys my marines and then they launch infested terrans into my tanks with lings. And I said keeping the medivacs alive are the secret cauz i feel a lot of terrans just drop, set it and forget it and the medivac dies, but with a lil more multitasking (and yes the tactics i suggested for terran is very multi task dependent) by keeping the medivacs and a few of the units alive really stretches the zergs multi tasking and can be quite effective, coupled with keeping their medivacs alive in direct engagements can be extremely effective if done at the right time, IE when zerg is relying on lings + fungal
I would say that this is somewhat untrue. While terrans are learning how to respond to mutalisks, it is worth it to consider the effects that mutas have on the match as a whole. You can keep the enemy in their base, keep tabs on their build,and force missile towers. While mutas may be bad in big engagements, by having the total map control that is provided by having them, you can get a serious economic lead,so throwing away lings and banes is not too serious a problem, a good bane detonation means that mutas can come and clean up. The map control provided by mutas is certainly worth the lost of efficiency in engagements.
I think that muta is a good thing to have for later but not something that is a real killer anymore. The stephano style is much harder to hold, i play protoss but i see a lot of terrans falling for that ling festor ultra mix. What would be great to see is zergs getting 5 mutas to kill workers in one shot and to hold off drops and the rest is units.
On March 16 2012 12:11 docvoc wrote: I think that muta is a good thing to have for later but not something that is a real killer anymore. The stephano style is much harder to hold, i play protoss but i see a lot of terrans falling for that ling festor ultra mix. What would be great to see is zergs getting 5 mutas to kill workers in one shot and to hold off drops and the rest is units.
muta are so bad in small numbers especially mid-late game the terran could just drop his 5 marines stim and have a good chance at taking out most of those muta.
On March 16 2012 10:39 Jermstuddog wrote: @heyitskez,
The 'secret' of medivacs vs ling-infestor doesn't change the fact that it is inherently a better build than mutas.
I happily choose going ling infestor vs mass drops/mass medivacs any day as they are 1) not killing me, and 2) I can afford rushing ultras or broods to balance out the cost-effectiveness of mass-healed marines before they get out of hand.
The thing with ling infestor is not that it is some gimmicky build that Terrans have yet to figure out, its that it is hands-down better than mutas, end of discussion.
This is not to say that mutas are useless, but to point out that if either of those strategies is gimmicky, its the muta-based ones, not the infestors.
Metagame is changing in the past few months, starting to see Mutalisks more in ZvP than ZvT lol. Mutalisks will continue to pressure and tear apart Terrans until a top level, where players like MVP see Mutalisks as Zerg throwing away resources.
I wonder if a zerg player were to get 0/3 upgrades for their muta if that would be better than the 2/0, as it would better prepare for the broodlord, then of course double evo for the 3/3 ground upgrades for the lings then the broodlings.
Mutas are still super good, it's just the current set of maps that's making them super super tough to use. Prime example is Cloud Kingdom - the terran third defends a huge approach path to his main, so there's only two places to harass and two places to counterattack.
You still see them every game on taldarim, and there's a reason for that. Honestly I hate making infestors before you get broodlords, it's this slow unit that has an aoe spell but sick good terrans are good at drops and multitasking and abusing mobility which you're voluntarily giving up making ling infestor
mutas ARE necessary zvt, you need them to snipe tanks and stop drops, the difference is you dont get a muta flock just a good 14 mutas to harass and stop drops...
Muta timings and marine micro have been essentially figured out by terrans. Opening up Mutas just puts you behind because your upgrades are delayed and your Hive tech comes later.
On March 16 2012 10:39 Jermstuddog wrote: @heyitskez,
The 'secret' of medivacs vs ling-infestor doesn't change the fact that it is inherently a better build than mutas.
I happily choose going ling infestor vs mass drops/mass medivacs any day as they are 1) not killing me, and 2) I can afford rushing ultras or broods to balance out the cost-effectiveness of mass-healed marines before they get out of hand.
The thing with ling infestor is not that it is some gimmicky build that Terrans have yet to figure out, its that it is hands-down better than mutas, end of discussion.
This is not to say that mutas are useless, but to point out that if either of those strategies is gimmicky, its the muta-based ones, not the infestors.
morrow disagrees....so not really end of discussion lol.
I guess maybe not end since Morrow is a big name, but his argument has holes in it.
He is assuming that T can get his army across the map and start applying major pressure without getting caught unsieged.
If I am going for ling/infestor, I typically have an army of 100+ lings, 5+ infestors, and maybe a handful of banes if I feel the need all through the mid-game. This gives me plenty of resources to delay any push from the moment it leaves Ts base, giving me plenty of time to get those critical broods/ultras out.
Most of Morrows argument is grounded in reality, where it might be a bit easier to play against infestors, but it's also a lot easier to play USING infestors. Since you don't HAVE to deal damage through your harass, you can literally just sit on your 3/4 bases, even let T kill one of them as long as you get your T3 units in time to save your nat, you are still in a VERY good position.
Mutas are still the gimmicky build between the two, and it's mostly related to just how bad the mutalisk is in general.
I feel it's almost impossible to win a zvt with mutas in close-air/non-cross positions without counter-attacks doing damage. I always have to leave a small group of lings near their base and hope they don't raise their depots when they move out. Its possibie with longer rush distance. Mutas can pin terrans in their base better and banelings mines force many more scans.
I experimented with double spires for a bit. Instead of going double spires right off the bat, a much safer transition would be going air attack 1 then get your 2nd spire while upgrading air armor 1. Then, you can start 2-2 and 3-3 at the same time. Once you hit critical mass with 2-2, always go for OCs instead of chasing scvs. Force a base trade while you have the advantage of baneling mines. They can have all the scvs they want, as long their mining bases are cut down and they are forced to save scans, they are pretty screwed. Oh, and play it like mass muta ZvP. Spam spines since your food count will be invested into mutas. They give you time to kill the OCs or production buildings.
That being said, with the current map pool, it's still easier to go infestors. Mutas ling bling = tax your multi-tasking with the no-brainer counter-attacks + pull back to flank. Spreading out burrowed infestors creates a more fun game for the zerg when we can make many more interesting tactical decisions.
On March 16 2012 10:02 heyitskez wrote:The benefit of mutas is terran _should_ be relatively scared to move out of his base so because of this you expand a shit tonne around the map and tech. (keeping in mind u should have taken a quick 4th so u will have gas for mutas + tech)
Really? I'm not seeing this as much. It seems like terrans are getting pretty comfortable pushing out even with mutas around. As long as they turret up their base and leave their marines rallied there, they'll be fine against any harrassment-sized (<16) ball of mutas. And they know you'll have to find a way to deal with their army using basically just lings and banelings.
On March 16 2012 08:11 darkscream wrote: Mutalisks don't belong off 2base lair builds in ZvT. I actually think they have a use later in the game even if you've gone infestor - If you end up at ling/infestor/ultra, it's okay to go mutalisks.
But classical muta/ing/baneling is so hard countered by the most standard of terran play, A lot of high tier zergs just like it because of the micro potential but honestly, it relies on your opponent making mistakes which they should never make.
The first post pretty much sums up my view. I feel a that mutalisks ought to be fast, or really late. People going 3 or even 4 hatch (1 macro) into mutas are delaying them too long to make the harass effective. That early, they're used mainly as a harass item and a drop killer, in a straight up fight they're pretty poor. A lot of players skip siege tech early to get lots of medivacs, which end up getting in before later mutas, and allow a high enough marine count to nullify mutalisk harass; that or they take a quick 3 bases, get a quick siege tech, and turtle with few drops, making mutas again somewhat obsolete.
On March 16 2012 10:39 Jermstuddog wrote: @heyitskez,
The 'secret' of medivacs vs ling-infestor doesn't change the fact that it is inherently a better build than mutas.
I happily choose going ling infestor vs mass drops/mass medivacs any day as they are 1) not killing me, and 2) I can afford rushing ultras or broods to balance out the cost-effectiveness of mass-healed marines before they get out of hand.
The thing with ling infestor is not that it is some gimmicky build that Terrans have yet to figure out, its that it is hands-down better than mutas, end of discussion.
This is not to say that mutas are useless, but to point out that if either of those strategies is gimmicky, its the muta-based ones, not the infestors.
morrow disagrees....so not really end of discussion lol.
I guess maybe not end since Morrow is a big name, but his argument has holes in it.
He is assuming that T can get his army across the map and start applying major pressure without getting caught unsieged.
If I am going for ling/infestor, I typically have an army of 100+ lings, 5+ infestors, and maybe a handful of banes if I feel the need all through the mid-game. This gives me plenty of resources to delay any push from the moment it leaves Ts base, giving me plenty of time to get those critical broods/ultras out.
Most of Morrows argument is grounded in reality, where it might be a bit easier to play against infestors, but it's also a lot easier to play USING infestors. Since you don't HAVE to deal damage through your harass, you can literally just sit on your 3/4 bases, even let T kill one of them as long as you get your T3 units in time to save your nat, you are still in a VERY good position.
Mutas are still the gimmicky build between the two, and it's mostly related to just how bad the mutalisk is in general.
I don't think Morrow is really "assuming" anything. His argument is based off his own personal experience at the pro level playing TvZ. As he said, with a medivac out you can see exactly where your opponent's army is (especially when you have ~5 infestors, you aren't going to want to kill single medivacs using pure infestor energy), and thus not get caught unsieged.
I don't understand how you can say that muta builds are "gimmicky" -- they've been the standard for ZvT for a long, long time, and therefore by definition cannot be a gimmick. Ling-infestor and ling-bane-muta are both solid builds, and not gimmicks.
Gimmick: 1. an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal. 2. a concealed, usually devious aspect or feature of something, as a plan or deal: An offer that good must have a gimmick in it somewhere.
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
You wouldn't believe it, but he is right, Stephano has been doing this lately and i have tried it and it works wonders. It would seem weird, but it works!!! You can even fit in an evo chamber early game (stephano does that too).
On March 16 2012 10:39 Jermstuddog wrote: @heyitskez,
The 'secret' of medivacs vs ling-infestor doesn't change the fact that it is inherently a better build than mutas.
I happily choose going ling infestor vs mass drops/mass medivacs any day as they are 1) not killing me, and 2) I can afford rushing ultras or broods to balance out the cost-effectiveness of mass-healed marines before they get out of hand.
The thing with ling infestor is not that it is some gimmicky build that Terrans have yet to figure out, its that it is hands-down better than mutas, end of discussion.
This is not to say that mutas are useless, but to point out that if either of those strategies is gimmicky, its the muta-based ones, not the infestors.
morrow disagrees....so not really end of discussion lol.
I guess maybe not end since Morrow is a big name, but his argument has holes in it.
He is assuming that T can get his army across the map and start applying major pressure without getting caught unsieged.
If I am going for ling/infestor, I typically have an army of 100+ lings, 5+ infestors, and maybe a handful of banes if I feel the need all through the mid-game. This gives me plenty of resources to delay any push from the moment it leaves Ts base, giving me plenty of time to get those critical broods/ultras out.
Most of Morrows argument is grounded in reality, where it might be a bit easier to play against infestors, but it's also a lot easier to play USING infestors. Since you don't HAVE to deal damage through your harass, you can literally just sit on your 3/4 bases, even let T kill one of them as long as you get your T3 units in time to save your nat, you are still in a VERY good position.
Mutas are still the gimmicky build between the two, and it's mostly related to just how bad the mutalisk is in general.
On March 16 2012 08:11 darkscream wrote: Mutalisks don't belong off 2base lair builds in ZvT. I actually think they have a use later in the game even if you've gone infestor - If you end up at ling/infestor/ultra, it's okay to go mutalisks.
But classical muta/ing/baneling is so hard countered by the most standard of terran play, A lot of high tier zergs just like it because of the micro potential but honestly, it relies on your opponent making mistakes which they should never make.
but you have no upgrades and its gna be 0/0 mutalisks again 3/3 marines and when you go muta first the upgrades might not even be 1/1 so they dont drop down like flies and muta ling bling works just aswell if not better than infestor ling, but infestor ling is better defensively
On March 16 2012 13:16 TheBlueMeaner wrote: mutas ARE necessary zvt, you need them to snipe tanks and stop drops, the difference is you dont get a muta flock just a good 14 mutas to harass and stop drops...
Just NO. Mutas are not necessary in ZvT and have become relegated to a situational units based on the map. You can deal with drops with good overlord spread and spores and spines at every base with ling support. Also, ling/infestor is better against marine tank because infestors are so much more effective then banelings because fungal prevents marine splitting and doesnt cost gas barring the original cost of the infestor. Once the marines are gone, double upgraded lings just melt tanks.
Im not sure, i feel as if you arent a top tier player it is much harder to handle muti's, You have to stim and tower up just to be able to stop them half ass at a low level because they are so fast and that splash.
On March 16 2012 08:26 jrkirby wrote: If people split their banelings, they might be more effective. Not even in the GSL (as far as I've seen) has anyone ever split their banelings to avoid splash from tanks and collosus. I think if they did that, they could do the same damage with less banelings, and use the extra gas to get mutas.
If people individually fired banelings with tanks, then you'd need less tanks, and could use extra gas to get more medivacs.
Possible, but highly unrealistic seeing as it is so difficult to split banelings while micro'ing ten other things, similar to how you would never individually target separate lings or banelings with each tank.
Pro Terrans do try to focus banelings with tanks if they can/have time. Your comparison is also a bit off.
As for OP's topic, its just a phase, mutas were used heavily in ZvT for a long time with a lot of pros who would make mutas every ZvT if the game developed into mid-game. Its like in ZvP, mutas were hardly ever used in this match up by pros then they were heavily used leaving many a Protoss player raging on trying to deal with them effectively. So currently mutas are not used too much and 2base muta is hardly ever seen, who knows in a couple of months they could become more popular than ever in this match up.
On March 16 2012 10:39 Jermstuddog wrote: @heyitskez,
The 'secret' of medivacs vs ling-infestor doesn't change the fact that it is inherently a better build than mutas.
I happily choose going ling infestor vs mass drops/mass medivacs any day as they are 1) not killing me, and 2) I can afford rushing ultras or broods to balance out the cost-effectiveness of mass-healed marines before they get out of hand.
The thing with ling infestor is not that it is some gimmicky build that Terrans have yet to figure out, its that it is hands-down better than mutas, end of discussion.
This is not to say that mutas are useless, but to point out that if either of those strategies is gimmicky, its the muta-based ones, not the infestors.
morrow disagrees....so not really end of discussion lol.
I guess maybe not end since Morrow is a big name, but his argument has holes in it.
He is assuming that T can get his army across the map and start applying major pressure without getting caught unsieged.
If I am going for ling/infestor, I typically have an army of 100+ lings, 5+ infestors, and maybe a handful of banes if I feel the need all through the mid-game. This gives me plenty of resources to delay any push from the moment it leaves Ts base, giving me plenty of time to get those critical broods/ultras out.
Most of Morrows argument is grounded in reality, where it might be a bit easier to play against infestors, but it's also a lot easier to play USING infestors. Since you don't HAVE to deal damage through your harass, you can literally just sit on your 3/4 bases, even let T kill one of them as long as you get your T3 units in time to save your nat, you are still in a VERY good position.
Mutas are still the gimmicky build between the two, and it's mostly related to just how bad the mutalisk is in general.
Wtf does gimmicky even mean O-o
unreliable, can be hard countered, requires opponent to make mistake
I think a lot of you guys are overthinking this. Is this a discussion about what is happening in GSL or what happens to anyone here playing ladder? I can guarantee that DRG can play muta ling bane against 99.99% of the Terrans in the world and win because he is better than them and uses the mutas well, has impeccable macro and control and timings. I bet he can also use infestor ling into some kind of hive tech and do the same. This suggests that any problems or preferences people have with the dominant ZvT styles are related to skill in the game and not which is "better" or whether mutas are a "dying" unit. In fact the same thing happened months ago too. People get accustomed to playing a certain way, so other people change it up and get a little advantage until the other people switch it up again too. Metagame is not some anthropomorphic force in the universe, it's just collective strategic momentum among groups of people interacting and sharing ideas.
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
I'll quote you all day. The number of times I've seen 1/0 mutas get lunched by 3/3 marines is unreal. The thing I do have to wonder though is that in the final of GSL november we saw leenock go double spire in that game on tal'darim. So the pros have known about it for a long time. I struggle to believe it hasn't been tested in practice, so the only explanation I can find for it not catching on is that zergs have found it less effective than going down a different route entirely. Seems a shame really as getting fast 3/3 air always sounded like a good set up for broodlords.
You're investing even more gas into a unit that STILL won't be cost effective vs marines.
You are too vulnerable with that much gas invested into mutas, you need banelings, ground upgrades and quicker infestors.
Mutas are not dead but it is just not as good as it used to be because of varies reasons as said from other people. Now that early upgraded marines are so predominate, I have seen quite a few terrans defending the early batch of muta with only 1 or 2 turrets each base in comparison to 3-4 and there are more terrans trying to trap mutas with marines. Maps also have less dead space for muta to fly around.
Though I prefer to use Ling/Infestor in ZvT, I can not agree that Mutas are useless in any Matchup. Theyre still a Key unit and what do you expect, that mass Muta will win u all games by default?
In ZvT Mutas are great for map control, its kind of a unit I like to use when I know that I am ahead and which will help me get more ahead. If im not ahead im gonna usa Ling/Infestor which is way more cost efficient if used correctly. You have to make sure that u get a good clump of mutas for effective harrassing and that u dont lose them in pointless spots. I personally think that Mutas are even harder to micro than infestors, because one big blunder will make you lose them all and ure screwed. However watching pros like DRG microing his mutas non stop and beeing so annoying and dominant with them, is a great inspiration to continue the struggle for proper Muta-Control.
In ZvP Mutas are still a great great unit. I use a Roach/Ling opener into mutas for Mapcontrol, and its very unlikely P will get up 2 stargates for phoenixes + the upgrade to defend the muta harras, so the phoenix buff doest not effect the mutaplay in most situations. Ling/Roach/Muta is a great combo against Toss to prevent them from having their 3rd Base.
In ZvZ is use Mutas for the MetaGame, i.e. I defend my 2 base with ling baneling and safe gas for ~12 mutas, I get them out and start harrasing and get map control. If my opponent has no AA at all, I continue massing mutas and win. If he got spores and stuff, I will go snipe overlords etc., he eventually loses his pace in macro and make false decisions and I take my 3rd and transition to Roach/Infestor for a final killing blow.
Im High-Plat in eu which is basically nothing, but If i can make use of mutas, every1 can and furthermore, I see mutas in A LOT of the GSL games to be used.
Bottom Line, I think Mutas are perfectly fine the way they are right now.
On March 17 2012 03:40 hypnobean wrote: I think a lot of you guys are overthinking this. Is this a discussion about what is happening in GSL or what happens to anyone here playing ladder? I can guarantee that DRG can play muta ling bane against 99.99% of the Terrans in the world and win because he is better than them and uses the mutas well, has impeccable macro and control and timings. I bet he can also use infestor ling into some kind of hive tech and do the same.
Does it mean anything that ling/infestor is now DRG's go-to strategy in ZvT? Out of his last 20+ ZvT games from MLG and GSL he's been twice as likely to go ling/infestor. Maybe it is a map issue as other posters have previously stated, but even so there's no doubting that their use is on the decline.
3/3 upgrades + (1-3)thors + (4-5)medivacs = 2000ish gas or 20 mutalisks worth of gas. And only with proper positioning, tech progression, and base defense is it possible to get it. I don't see what is so imbalanced about this?
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
I'll quote you all day. The number of times I've seen 1/0 mutas get lunched by 3/3 marines is unreal. The thing I do have to wonder though is that in the final of GSL november we saw leenock go double spire in that game on tal'darim. So the pros have known about it for a long time. I struggle to believe it hasn't been tested in practice, so the only explanation I can find for it not catching on is that zergs have found it less effective than going down a different route entirely. Seems a shame really as getting fast 3/3 air always sounded like a good set up for broodlords.
You're investing even more gas into a unit that STILL won't be cost effective vs marines.
You are too vulnerable with that much gas invested into mutas, you need banelings, ground upgrades and quicker infestors.
The cool thing about double spire was that he could trade efficiently with small groups of marines (ie drops, or 8 marines coming out of a barracks to defend, or the 6 marines left at a PF).
But then jjakji just made a few more than the usual number of thors (ie more than one), and Leenock STILL couldn't engage his army without losing everything. Even if 3/3 marines aren't quite good enough, you can still add a second thor to his army (in addition to the defensive thor). Sure the thor cuts into his tank count, but a second spire seriously cuts into the baneling count as well.
His double spire naturally transitioned well into broodlords, all of which got killed by 5 ghosts. The double spire to broodlord transition should actually be insanely powerful after the patch, since 3/3 corruptors will be laughing all over vikings.
On March 17 2012 03:40 hypnobean wrote: I think a lot of you guys are overthinking this. Is this a discussion about what is happening in GSL or what happens to anyone here playing ladder? I can guarantee that DRG can play muta ling bane against 99.99% of the Terrans in the world and win because he is better than them and uses the mutas well, has impeccable macro and control and timings. I bet he can also use infestor ling into some kind of hive tech and do the same. This suggests that any problems or preferences people have with the dominant ZvT styles are related to skill in the game and not which is "better" or whether mutas are a "dying" unit. In fact the same thing happened months ago too. People get accustomed to playing a certain way, so other people change it up and get a little advantage until the other people switch it up again too. Metagame is not some anthropomorphic force in the universe, it's just collective strategic momentum among groups of people interacting and sharing ideas.
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
I'll quote you all day. The number of times I've seen 1/0 mutas get lunched by 3/3 marines is unreal. The thing I do have to wonder though is that in the final of GSL november we saw leenock go double spire in that game on tal'darim. So the pros have known about it for a long time. I struggle to believe it hasn't been tested in practice, so the only explanation I can find for it not catching on is that zergs have found it less effective than going down a different route entirely. Seems a shame really as getting fast 3/3 air always sounded like a good set up for broodlords.
You're investing even more gas into a unit that STILL won't be cost effective vs marines.
You are too vulnerable with that much gas invested into mutas, you need banelings, ground upgrades and quicker infestors.
The cool thing about double spire was that he could trade efficiently with small groups of marines (ie drops, or 8 marines coming out of a barracks to defend, or the 6 marines left at a PF).
But then jjakji just made a few more than the usual number of thors (ie more than one), and Leenock STILL couldn't engage his army without losing everything. Even if 3/3 marines aren't quite good enough, you can still add a second thor to his army (in addition to the defensive thor). Sure the thor cuts into his tank count, but a second spire seriously cuts into the baneling count as well.
His double spire naturally transitioned well into broodlords, all of which got killed by 5 ghosts. The double spire to broodlord transition should actually be insanely powerful after the patch, since 3/3 corruptors will be laughing all over vikings.
Again, /thread.
Mutas are simply harder to play, and that's why a lot of zergs are not playing them right now. They have just as many upsides to them as infestors, and the only downside is technical and mechanical difficulty. The stephano stuff where you go infestor/ling with like 20 spines in the middle of the map and mass infestor brood is just mechanically poor. It's like those terrans who make 20+ turrets at each edge of their base. Both are equally as flawed.
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
Instead of 9 mutas and +1, 7 mutas and 1/1 (20 second delay)?
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
Instead of 9 mutas and +1, 7 mutas and 1/1 (20 second delay)?
Who knows, maybe.
7 mutas with 1/1 is way worse than 9 mutas with 1/0 (not to mention spire and +1 defense is 300 gas, not 200). In fact 8 mutas with 0/0 is better than 7 mutas with 1/0 (Belial made a whole thread specifically about upgrading mutas to show this).
The point of going double spire would not be to hit some timing when 1/1 kicks in, but to have a much more powerful army once you hit max. If you get your upgrades late or with 1 spire, you can hit max supply when you only have 1-2 upgrades finished. The problem is upgrades take a long time and there will be no way to make your maxed army stronger besides just waiting for them to finish (assuming you stay on ling/bling/muta). If you go double spire then your muta flock will be weaker than it would be otherwise for a while, but as you max out and reach 3/3 with your mutas, you end up with a flock that doesn't just melt against fully upgraded units of your opponent.
All that is to say, I agree with you ShatterZer0 -- "who knows, maybe".
In ZvT from what I've seen of korean terrans, they are getting incredibly good at shoring up weakness to mutalisks. Good turret positioning and small groups of heavily upgraded marines destroy all but the largest mutalisk balls, and just by putting one thor in a push, they can make up for the 6 marines in a corner at home. Rarely do you ever see mutalisks pick off too many stray targets any more.
ZvP I have mixed feelings. In ZvP a mutalisk based army loses straight up to almost any standard deathball horribly when they can't do damage, and pretty much lose the game if protoss has 3 bases and tech up because the mutalisks flat out suck in fights. At the same time though, when ahead, Muta's are probably the simplest way to finish off protoss, albeit drawn out.
If people individually fired banelings with tanks, then you'd need less tanks, and could use extra gas to get more medivacs.
Possible, but highly unrealistic seeing as it is so difficult to split banelings while micro'ing ten other things, similar to how you would never individually target separate lings or banelings with each tank.
If Terrans have time to stim, split marines, target fire tanks, micro viking/emp infestors, in addition to stutter stepping (which top Terrans do) I am sure that zergs should be able to handle adding bane ling splitting to their micro routine. In fact it has always baffled me that zergs continue to clump their banelings, and that protoss continue to clump their templar. If you guys started splitting I would be terrified..... Imagine 8 templar split throughout a protoss army, now I can no longer just emp all the templar at once, terrifying concept.
Also you are completly wrong, Terrans routinely shift target all banelings in sight with tanks. It reduces the need for splits, and in fact I DO reduce my tank number for just this reason, I am very glad to have the extra marines/upgrades.
I think the reason people don't go mutas as much recently is because you are watching games on maps like dual sight, entombed, or antiga which are broken as fuck since zerg can't get a fourth base so zerg needs to make the midgame as small as possible and the lategame come as quick as possible. If terran can set up position in the middle on antiga you are just fucked. Plus, your third is relative close by, so you can defend it easily without mutas, while terran can also more easily defend against mutas, which make them less effective.
Get rid of broken maps, and you get rid of gimmicky play.
Mutas are fine. Just like in ZvP, the point of mutas is keep terran in their base while you tech up to broodlords. It was never meant to be the endall, but terrans used to have a hard time dealing with them, like toss did, so a lot of games ended in that stage of the game. Zerg uses mutas to keep map control. And I don't know about builds 'hard countering' them - as long as you keep your mutas alive, you will crush any terran push before he has lots of ghosts out. The problem with them is that you can't necessarily kill T with ling/bane/muta against entrenched sieged tanks and defensive terran, so you gotta get broodlords, to which T gets ghosts, and then when they get enough ghosts, no amount of ling/bane/muta will win, so you have to make more and more bl/infestor.
If Terrans have time to stim, split marines, target fire tanks, micro viking/emp infestors, in addition to stutter stepping (which top Terrans do) I am sure that zergs should be able to handle adding bane ling splitting to their micro routine. In fact it has always baffled me that zergs continue to clump their banelings, and that protoss continue to clump their templar. If you guys started splitting I would be terrified..... Imagine 8 templar split throughout a protoss army, now I can no longer just emp all the templar at once, terrifying concept.
Most zergs these days do split their banes. right? I mean i do, it may not be perfect, but I atleast box over the banes, or half of them, and send them one way or another, then cut another half box, etc.
Anyways the idea mutas don't work is ridiculous. It's these maps that are the problem. You aren't supposed to kill anything with the mutas, you just force T to stay in his base otherwise you run in with your entire ling/bane/muta army and win the base trade, and you cut off reinforcements so eventually your army is bigger than his by the time he reaches your base and you kill him because his whole army isn't perfectly sieged up. So then when T finally pushes out, you have a ton of broodlords.
As Belial said, Mutas are pretty much map dependent.
I love Muta play on Korhal and Shakuras, where your 3rd is always far away and (if cross-positions) exposed. TDA lends itself naturally to Mutas, and I find I use them every game there as well.
What i never understood is the tendency of Zergs to rush for Muta. They are a harassment unit, they are not meant to defend pushes or end the game. They grant map control, defend against drops, and punish an undefended Terran.
Once you get a flock, you can start pressuring the Terran, forcing him to remain in his base until he gets the defensive infrastructure in place to deal with you. Even then, he's going to be hesitant about leaving his base entirely undefended, and will leave behind small groups of marines, all of which weakens his inevitable push.
Mutas are not something you mass 40+ of and then run into his thors, they're a harassment unit that allows you to naturally get your spire / start upgrades before hive, and which transitions nicely into hive when you finally do get it.
I left this out, but it should be noted that infestor / ling is usually defensive, and it's hard to apply consistent pressure, especially if the Terran is dropping every which way. I find the opposite is true of muta play, the Terran is always on the defensive (unless he's launching a large push), and you have ample opportunity to counter-attack, mass banelings to take out his 3rd, or attempt runbys.
I've seen nestea open up a fast 3 hatch build and get late mutas and catch terrans by suprise, at the very least the threat of mutas forces more terrans to build turrrets which is good.
I am starting to feel like there are major holes in the ling infestor build as well, if terran keeps up on upgrades it becomes really hard to trade effectively in the mid game and be effective vs terran drops.
The ling infestor style makes zerg t3 much stronger when you get there though which is awesome.
I think Mutas have lost its effectiveness because of the fast 3rds from Terran and their micro has improved also. Mutas are more or less not that strong in straight up engagements so there's a bunch of inefficient supply for the Zerg when the battles happen and with Terran being able to secure 3 bases easily, it doesn't matter if the muta flock picks off some turrents here and there. It's still not bad, but I think the ling/infestor is a superior choice.
What i never understood is the tendency of Zergs to rush for Muta. They are a harassment unit, they are not meant to defend pushes or end the game. They grant map control, defend against drops, and punish an undefended Terran.
yea that was horrible. the days of 30 supply lair in zvt was so terrible. Even drg did it against thorzain on tda.
Nowadays the earliest lair you'll see is maybe 55 supply in zvt. Seems like the trend is later and later lair, a lot of zvt's now go past 70 supply before getting lair.
I think Mutas have lost its effectiveness because of the fast 3rds from Terran and their micro has improved also. Mutas are more or less not that strong in straight up engagements so there's a bunch of inefficient supply for the Zerg when the battles happen and with Terran being able to secure 3 bases easily, it doesn't matter if the muta flock picks off some turrents here and there. It's still not bad, but I think the ling/infestor is a superior choice.
Mutas are never meant to be shot at, so they are incredibly strong. I don't know how you can say that. When terran pushes out with some 170 supply army, Zerg will have 200/200 with about 25 mutas. 200/200 of ling/bane/muta just rapes ~170 marine/tank/medivac (thors are pretty useless) because the ling/bane soaks up damage while the mutas just shred everything. That's why it's important to keep the mutas alive.
Keep the mutas alive, and terran is forced to stay in his base, and if he does push out, you will just rape his army because your dps will be so high with the mutas. If you lose the mutas, terran pushes out, and your ling/bane gets owned because of the tanks, and kiting, and simply won't be doing enough dps.
I don't think fast third 'counters' muta play either, in such a case, as long as zerg purely droned up his third before making any units at all, he will max out quickly and forever deny the fourth from terran, grab their own fourth, and tech up quickly. Of course, it's a hard game, but I don't think third 'counters' muta play. What it 'counters' is zergs who dont drone up their third.
infestors hard counter marines. makes game more balanced
Is this a balance whine? Really, quality post.
It's medivacs that are 'imbalanced', not marines. 0/0 speedlings will absolutely rape 3/3 marines, especially if you have a couple banes in there too. But add a medivac, and speedlings will never win.
And I find that infestor play gets owned by marines, while mutas so much better. The reason pure bio sucks against muta, is that you have this ling/bane army, and terran can't kite it or micro or split against it, because the mutas will just wreck them if they do. So they are damned if they split and kite because of the mutas, and they are damned if they just sit there and take the bane hits. Then, the mutas just push and pull them in every direction on the map. At least marines can drop against infestors.
To add my 2 cents, 2 base muta ling bling aggression can easily bust the 3rd of Terran on most maps. Terran can't actually take that third safetly or they risk dying. This is what Idra and Nestea do when they face a triple orbital build. Terran is forced to spread out between bases and mere building Walls are now useless, and tanks are delayed anyway. Zerg can easily kill the third of the Terran off 2 base without losing many mutas.
Personally, against Marine/Tank I like to go Infestor/Ling/Bane. If you get a couple of decent fungals on marines, your banelings can absolutely tear through, and it means for a faster transition to Hive.
On March 17 2012 16:50 Belial88 wrote: Might be a bit over the top, but I'm pretty sure 0/0 ling/bane will just tear through 3/3 marines without any kind of support.
If you really believe that, there's no point arguing.
BBS got nerfed out of existance in SC2 because the marine US such a ridiculously strong unit.
Trying to make an argument that 0/0 speedlings can crush 3/3 marines is laughable.
Given equal ups, a non-stimmed marine will kill 1 1/2 lings before he goes down. A 3/3 marine will kill 2 lings and be ready for more. Apply stim and a little bit of micro and now each marine is worth 3-4 lings.
Why did I even bother typing this, you're obviously trolling.
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
No problem man, no problem - Stephano does that all the time, Nestea quite often .
On March 17 2012 16:50 Belial88 wrote: Might be a bit over the top, but I'm pretty sure 0/0 ling/bane will just tear through 3/3 marines without any kind of support.
If you really believe that, there's no point arguing.
BBS got nerfed out of existance in SC2 because the marine US such a ridiculously strong unit.
Trying to make an argument that 0/0 speedlings can crush 3/3 marines is laughable.
Given equal ups, a non-stimmed marine will kill 1 1/2 lings before he goes down. A 3/3 marine will kill 2 lings and be ready for more. Apply stim and a little bit of micro and now each marine is worth 3-4 lings.
Why did I even bother typing this, you're obviously trolling.
You are aware I said ling with bane support against mmarines with no tanks or medivacs, right? Your crazy.
On March 16 2012 09:24 Jermstuddog wrote: This is one of the reasons I got so annoyed with the muta nerf in ZvP.
Mutalisks are a dying unit in SC2
They have already become useless in ZvT, they have failed finding use in ZvZ, and now, they are basically worthless in ZvP.
I made the suggestion before the nerf, and plenty were quick to laugh at the absurdity of my statement, but I am happy to restate the same exact thing.
Mutas were never known for their unrivaled power, otherwise we would see them dominating all match-ups. Rather, the very reason they were so hated by Protoss is the reason why they are bad units in general.
Mutas don't deliver.
While Mutalisks can be good momentarily, in high-level SC2, they do not offer a way to seal a game... More often, by choosing to go muta, the Zerg player is commiting himself to a very weak midgame army and hoping to win through an unchecked mass expansion followup or a bad base trade for his opponent.
Mutalisks should have been buffed, not nerfed. They are quickly losing viability in general, essentially leaving Zerg with the fewest viable units in any matchup. zerglings and roaches are now making up at least 90% of every Zerg army in all matchups and this trend has no signs of slowing down.
Thanks Blizzard for boxing me in to ling/roach in all MUs, that's what makes for interesting games.
Mutas in ZvT are way too conditional in my opinion...
If Terran goes mech Muta harass becomes nearly impossible since Terran players will just position Thors around a couple missile turrets in the base to deter any initial Muta harassment.
If Terran goes standard Marine/Tank then Mutas become useful for harass but the cost of the Muta tech puts the Zerg player behind in both upgrades and tech especially when compared to the more versatile ling/bling/infestor. Also not to mention that once the late game hits, all that supply tied up in Mutas becomes essentially worthless unless you just want to patrol them around your expansions to pick off drops.
It seems that Muta is just a little too much high risk low reward.
My question is what happens when you are going ling/infestor and they transition into mech? I've had people 2rax me, then go mech, and I respond by just going ling/infestor as I don't see more than 4-6 hellions and when I scout the front I see those 2 rax making a wall, and when I scout the back with an ovie it gets shot down with a turret ring and a viking?
In case you were wondering, yes, this has happened to me. I managed to get superior positioning off, but it was a nightmare to clinch that game- ended up being a starvation game. So ragey.
I used to go muta but lately I've been dealing with 3 cc tank/helion/thor/banshees, turret rings. Pulling my hair out against that. The mutas just become an expensive scout.
On March 18 2012 07:44 clik wrote: I used to go muta but lately I've been dealing with 3 cc tank/helion/thor/banshees, turret rings. Pulling my hair out against that. The mutas just become an expensive scout.
Same-I haven't played against a macro Terran before, and it is SO hard for me to deal with atm.
On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote: I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
Instead of 9 mutas and +1, 7 mutas and 1/1 (20 second delay)?
Who knows, maybe.
7 mutas with 1/1 is way worse than 9 mutas with 1/0 (not to mention spire and +1 defense is 300 gas, not 200). In fact 8 mutas with 0/0 is better than 7 mutas with 1/0 (Belial made a whole thread specifically about upgrading mutas to show this).
The point of going double spire would not be to hit some timing when 1/1 kicks in, but to have a much more powerful army once you hit max. If you get your upgrades late or with 1 spire, you can hit max supply when you only have 1-2 upgrades finished. The problem is upgrades take a long time and there will be no way to make your maxed army stronger besides just waiting for them to finish (assuming you stay on ling/bling/muta). If you go double spire then your muta flock will be weaker than it would be otherwise for a while, but as you max out and reach 3/3 with your mutas, you end up with a flock that doesn't just melt against fully upgraded units of your opponent.
All that is to say, I agree with you ShatterZer0 -- "who knows, maybe".
Well, ultimately, this is the only honest answer. I'm not saying I know the future, I'm just saying I'd be willing to place "it," whatever it is, on the line. If I'm wrong, people can make fun of me. I just think I'm right :p
The problem is that Terrans these days open bio or mech, both with fast 3rd bases. Thors and Marines both have always crushed mutaliskplay, it's the biomech openings (early tanks) that made mutalisks strong. Add to that that Terrans don't waste marines anymore in useless drops and pushes "to put on pressure" while they macro harder, which just means that you are not going to have those mass mutaball vs small marine group engagements ever. You will always fight groups of marines or Thors that straight up crush mutalisks.
Infestors on the other hand can deal with bigger groups of marines and allow for faster Broodlord transitions, which is necessary to stand a chance against a maxed Terran army.
That being said, mutalisks still rock on the ladder (at least up to midmasters on EU), because most Terrans still go for the marine/tank 9-10min marinewaste push (alternatively double marinewaste drop) and start their third after that, which is the optimal position to just go S-TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT till the 20min mark and win with by having one mutalisk per marine.
I cannot give you guys huge insight on the Zerg part of the game, but I personally feel even though ling/infestor and the proper transition is the stronger play overall that muta/ling/bane especially with a good creep spread gives terran nightmares, at least me.
I know that if I can position well and keep equal or ahead on upgrades Zerg usually cannot trade cost efficiently and will eventually lose, YET! if you open up with the usual Zerg opening now with delayed lair 1-1 upgrades into 2-2 and delayed mutalisks I think its a very good option. Mutas force turrets and force terran to be a bit more defensive than he usually is.
It allows you complete map control and even though 200/200 vs 200/200 muta/ling/bane is nearly worthless the Terran basically can't (or at least I cannot...) move out early because it feels terrible and they delayed mutas will lead to good upgrades (usually superior to Terrans) and tons of units...
Don't know. I don't claim to be good in Terran vs Zerg, but I have much less trouble against ling/infestor than against muta/ling/bane even if I think muta/ling/bane needs to be played better + doesn't allow mistakes while ling/infestor does allow small hickups in your game.
The concept of negative feedback is always an undercurrent when the meta is discussed. I'm going to argue that the reason why mutas are currently in decline is simple: it's the contraction following the growth of muta play versus Terran in previous months. As a result of the previous increase in popularity of mutalisk play headed by DongRaeGu and other top pros, Terrans had started facing mutas more often and as a result adapted by improving their play against mutas in several ways- better usage of turrets, adding Thors earlier to a bio-mech force, and so on. Once ling-infestor play reaches the peak of its popularity, Terrans will begin to deal with that more effectively and the Zerg meta will shift again, possibly back to mutas.
Also, I disagree with the notion of double spire. On top of the fact that Spires cost far more than Evo/EngineeringBay/Forge, Mutas don't scale well with upgrades. Attack upgrades don't increase percent damage output against a hypothetical 0-armor-enemy for mutas as much as they do for tier 1 units like rines or lings: 0 attack- 9 damage +1- 10 damage, a 11.11% damage output increase. +2- 11, 22.22 % increase +3- 12, 33.33% increase
This problem is compounded by the fact that the glaive doesn't get the full +1 attack upgrade on each bounce; a 0/0 muta vs 0/0 marine fight would be much better for the zerg than a 3/3 muta vs 3/3 marine fight. Therefore, Mutas upgrades become worse in comparison to enemy infantry upgrades as time wears on.
To top it off, double spire costs a LOT more than one might think: 1/1 single spire: 200/200 for the spire + 100/100 for level 1 attack + 150/150 for level 1 armor = 450/450 3/3 double spire: 400/400 (keep in mind that since this is early, the costs are even more dangerous) + 250/250 for level 1 + 400/400 for level 2 + 550/550 for level 3 = 1600/1600 That's a 1050/1050 difference, worth 10 mutas. In other words, since the cost is so damn high and the difference between a 1/1 muta and a 3/3 muta is only about a 22.22% worth increase, you would have to make roughly 45 mutas to justify the costs. This almost certainly rules out a tech switch away from an air-heavy composition.
Although obviously these numbers are inaccurate considering the differing opportunity costs at each stage for each upgrade and the differing percentage worth against upgraded units, it still means a heavy, inflexible investment.
In my games the only times I do well is when I use mutas for force other units. For example forcing marines instead of marauders and doing a roach follow up, or forcing stalkers instead of zealots so lings so way more damage. As far as finishing moves the only way mutas can work is if you killed nearly all of your opponent's workers and then make any other units whatsoever.
Too many players rely on Mutalisks as their answer to ZvT. They'll try and be cute with their harassment, feel cocky and just rely on their Midgame composition way too long, They'll pour in a lot of resources to their flock, only to lose them due to poor multitasking.
Some of the better Zerg players I play who choose to go Mutalisk stop at around 12-13, get armor upgrades for their air (most of BL's DPS is the broodlings themselves and the splash damage from Siege tanks. 0 attack vikings take a long time killing 1-2 armor broodlords) and transition into infestors and broodlords, with Mutalisks flying around killing stray marines, preventing drops and clean up any surviving armies that are too tank heavy.
You don't have to JUST go Mutalisk, or JUST Infestor. You have to be smart about how you use both.
I think too many people try to play Mutalisk the old way, to get head on confrontation. Terran getting better and better at macroing and getting upgrades make maine tanks medivac vs mutaling bane fight a lot easier as Terran. As a terran player myself, i always like to play vs Mutaling because i know i don't have to worry about Hive tech too soon. But i think its mainly because at my level, zerg don't know how to counter attack proprely.
A counter attack mutaling player is nightmare as Terran. The terran army is slow as hell in this match up, even slower than a protoss army. I can agree hat maps are getting a bit stupid about not putting even a tiny space around bases for muta to navigate. You see less banshee play because of that too.
On March 17 2012 16:50 Belial88 wrote: Might be a bit over the top, but I'm pretty sure 0/0 ling/bane will just tear through 3/3 marines without any kind of support.
If you really believe that, there's no point arguing.
BBS got nerfed out of existance in SC2 because the marine US such a ridiculously strong unit.
Trying to make an argument that 0/0 speedlings can crush 3/3 marines is laughable.
Given equal ups, a non-stimmed marine will kill 1 1/2 lings before he goes down. A 3/3 marine will kill 2 lings and be ready for more. Apply stim and a little bit of micro and now each marine is worth 3-4 lings.
Why did I even bother typing this, you're obviously trolling.
You are aware I said ling with bane support against mmarines with no tanks or medivacs, right? Your crazy.
He's not crazy at all. Stim + good micro (splits and stutter). 3/3 marines should target down all banes and then just back into a corner or something and mow down the lings.
IMHO it's more of a stylistic choice in going Ling/Infestor over Muta/Ling/Bling. If you think about it, you can theoretically accomplish everything you'd do with mutas and banelings with fungal growth and ITs, and instead of expending units that asplode themsleves you're spending energy. I don't see any reason why mutalisks are unviable or anything nowadays, in high numbers they can topple turrets and be a Terran's worst nightmare having to run SCVs willy-nilly. With mutalisks you can pick off tanks, counterattack and temporarily contain a Terran until he has enough static defense. With infestors you can nab groups of marines with a chain fungal and be annoying with burrow and throwing beach balls. Still, I think it's more just a preference for infestors rather than mutas being seen as unviable because they definitely have a place and can win games.
As a Terran player I will always fear muta openers. A zerg investing in mutas, even without harassing, forces turrets, makes drops more costly, and takes map control. When I see infestor play I just start dropping and expanding like its my job. Zerg can't cost-effectively stop double drops without mutas or turtling with static d, and I mean turtling because if there is a hole 16 marines will wreak havoc.
On March 21 2012 16:45 Gamegene wrote: Too many players rely on Mutalisks as their answer to ZvT. They'll try and be cute with their harassment, feel cocky and just rely on their Midgame composition way too long, They'll pour in a lot of resources to their flock, only to lose them due to poor multitasking.
Some of the better Zerg players I play who choose to go Mutalisk stop at around 12-13, get armor upgrades for their air (most of BL's DPS is the broodlings themselves and the splash damage from Siege tanks. 0 attack vikings take a long time killing 1-2 armor broodlords) and transition into infestors and broodlords, with Mutalisks flying around killing stray marines, preventing drops and clean up any surviving armies that are too tank heavy.
You don't have to JUST go Mutalisk, or JUST Infestor. You have to be smart about how you use both.
This. Going muta of 2base doesn't mean you have to kill the terran with mutas, you don't even need to do damage. All you need those first mutas to supply is 1. scouting information, fly into terrans main and see what comp he's going for. 2. map control, terran needs to keep army around base to stop muta harass. 3. drop defense, drops are extremely costly when mutas deny medivac.
You don't need many mutas to obtain those benefits. You can pretty much get 10 mutas right when spire pops, then go for infestors, or you can just pump ling/bane like crazy since lings and banes are what crushes the terran army, not the mutalisks.
I don't think that mutas are bad for the game or too underpowered. I agree though that 2 base muta is quite bad and doesn't really do anything versus a good terran that can keep up with macro as well as the upgrades. My ZvT is by far my best match up only losing to weird all-in builds or of course, high master korean terrans. Being an 800ish point masters zerg I think I understand the match up pretty well. I don't believe in sacrificing mutalisks for upgrades. I get my 3rd, double evo, 2 - 2, THEN I get mutas. Once on 3 - 4 base I'll begin to get my muta count up to about 20 - 30 and keep it around there. With ling bane muta I'm able to max out usually before the terran and with good map presences and awareness with such fast units I'm able to almost always catch the terran unsieged and I can crush the army and even when they are sieged with good control I'm still able to trade efficiently. I use mutas in order to focus fire tanks and harass the production of the terran. Infestors are good to throw in when mutas get dull at times but I still prefer the mutalisk.
On March 16 2012 08:46 ClysmiC wrote: My ZvT has taken a bit of a nosedive lately (I'm still a muta/ling/bling player) as Terran marine upgrades are just so strong. But I still really dislike ling/infestor style vs Terran as I feel it leaves you WAY too open to drops, and its only a matter of time before Terrans start abusing the crap out of that fact.
Spread overlords, Have your lings on atleast 2 separate hotkeys. Plants spines when your eco is great. Problem solved.
Not being able to handle terran drops is a multitasking problem. You need to be able to watch the minimap while doing other stuff.
mutas are awful zvt. in order for them to work you need 2 spires and 2 evos uprading lings and mutas. that just doesnt work unless you play much, MUCH better.
infestor into hive is both easier to play and transitions much safer, smoother and faster to that scary hive tech composition while having enough gas to support all the upgrades you need (which you also get really early).
there are a few maps where i think mutas are better but in my opinion that doesn't make mutas a good unit in that matchup it just means the map has big flaws that work against normal play like for example shakuras.
Another reason why infestor/ling is clearly superior right now is that the transition into ultras is faster and more effective than transitioning into brood lords off of muta builds.
When hive pops for an infestor player he will instantly start 3-3 and adrenal followed by an ultralisk cavern. So right when the first ultras pop he will have 2-2 upgrades on them (+ carapace) and 3-3 will be pretty close. Since hive comes a lot earlier for infestor builds there will come a point where you will have 3-3 ultra/ling/infestor vs 2-2 marines. Contrast that against a brood lord army that will have something like 0-2 or 1-1 vs 2-2 marines.
You also need a lot less ultras for them to be effective in your army and they are faster than Brood Lords. When ultra carapace finishes you can easily make 3 ultras and they will be extremely benefitial to either main army engagements or counters / planetary snipes. If you only make 3-4 broods they are nearly useless and you can't use them in counterattacks at all. You need to have atleast 8-10 broods before they can start doing damage and even then they need to traverse the map slowly, giving the terran a great deal of time to prepare for the attack.
You normally add double spire after your 3-3 is done or somewhere after you've maxed on ultras and have a good econ. Then you can get a greater spire and start working on those upgrades. Then the tech switch comes suddenly with maybe 2-2 broods that he won't expect.
Ling->infestor->ultra->brood/corruptor is a LOT more fluent of a transition than ling->banes->mutas->infestor->brood/corruptor and it scales much better with upgrades. Hell I even get ranged upgrades for my infested terrans late game because you don't really need to spend a million gas to be able to do damage with ultra/ling.
Mutas are just fine in my opinion, they have their place. Someone said that drops should be handled just fine with overlord spread and lings, which I completely agree with, but mutas are great for making that drop not even happen. And killing off medivacs is HUGE, especially as you start to go for broods.
As others said, they are also great for scouting, and just keeping the opponent honest. If they forget to build turrets anywhere, you can punish them.
Lastly, they are great for a late game tech switch. So useful to make 20 mutas after a big battle and just wreck your opponents econ.
On March 21 2012 23:32 StarBrift wrote: Another reason why infestor/ling is clearly superior right now is that the transition into ultras is faster and more effective than transitioning into brood lords off of muta builds.
When hive pops for an infestor player he will instantly start 3-3 and adrenal followed by an ultralisk cavern. So right when the first ultras pop he will have 2-2 upgrades on them (+ carapace) and 3-3 will be pretty close. Since hive comes a lot earlier for infestor builds there will come a point where you will have 3-3 ultra/ling/infestor vs 2-2 marines. Contrast that against a brood lord army that will have something like 0-2 or 1-1 vs 2-2 marines.
You also need a lot less ultras for them to be effective in your army and they are faster than Brood Lords. When ultra carapace finishes you can easily make 3 ultras and they will be extremely benefitial to either main army engagements or counters / planetary snipes. If you only make 3-4 broods they are nearly useless and you can't use them in counterattacks at all. You need to have atleast 8-10 broods before they can start doing damage and even then they need to traverse the map slowly, giving the terran a great deal of time to prepare for the attack.
You normally add double spire after your 3-3 is done or somewhere after you've maxed on ultras and have a good econ. Then you can get a greater spire and start working on those upgrades. Then the tech switch comes suddenly with maybe 2-2 broods that he won't expect.
Ling->infestor->ultra->brood/corruptor is a LOT more fluent of a transition than ling->banes->mutas->infestor->brood/corruptor and it scales much better with upgrades. Hell I even get ranged upgrades for my infested terrans late game because you don't really need to spend a million gas to be able to do damage with ultra/ling.
Nice post. With mutas the hive tech comes pretty late. And it is hard to transition into ultras, but going brood lords mean you will likely have a semi-weak ground army and it will be hard to hold off a push that comes before you have enough broods. Getting to hive tech off mutas is just a lot harder (and less effective) to do than with infestor based play.
I feel that the maps also makes it harder to go mutas. The maps force a strong army to control the middle or makes it hard to harass with mutas in the natural and main most of the time.
Alot of pros have been trying to throw in a few when they won't be a complete waste, a suprise, and use them as a trick to really go more infestor heavy to get ready for broodlord tech.
people have been abusing mutalisks forever and now non-zergs are playing under the assumption that they will likely come out. there is no match up in which mutalisks are strange to be seen. that's why mutas are hard to use. people being sensational like they can't be used are seriously ignorant and naive. it's just a matter of you not being able to win with only mutalisks, and frankly you shouldn't. they were better in BW and you couldn't do it there either (getting mass MASS mutas that is).
you spend like 2k+ gas on units that are simply doing less per unit after getting 10-15 and getting more of them doesn't improve your tactical effectiveness with them except that you will eventually have a flock strong enough to kill buildings. it has always been an idiotic thing to just get mass mutas and against a good enough player it shouldn't be able to do anything except force a base trade. WHY would you even get more than like 15 mutas if you weren't planning on killing buildings? you're either planning on killing their buildings or you're a bad player who's actually trying to fight an straight up army with mutalisks and that makes no sense. there is of course the idea of getting 20-30 mutalisks for the sake of doing what 1 flock of mutas can do in 2 places at once, but that is so rarely ever done that i only mention it for the sake of it existing.
most people just 1a mutas the entire game and don't even micro well until thors despite them being a micro intensive unit. the fact that people are going into mass mutas with no pressure except from mutas whatsoever and not getting completely destroyed tells me the unit is more than fine.
On March 21 2012 23:20 willverrecken wrote: mutas are awful zvt. in order for them to work you need 2 spires and 2 evos uprading lings and mutas. that just doesnt work unless you play much, MUCH better.
infestor into hive is both easier to play and transitions much safer, smoother and faster to that scary hive tech composition while having enough gas to support all the upgrades you need (which you also get really early).
there are a few maps where i think mutas are better but in my opinion that doesn't make mutas a good unit in that matchup it just means the map has big flaws that work against normal play like for example shakuras.
Perhaps the reason mutas don't work for you in zvt is BECAUSE you go double spire double evolution chamber, as if you could afford that on 2 base.
Mutas provide so many things in this game, but if you're one of those scrubs who think only in terms of unit composition, they might appear bad to you. You know, because YOU'RE bad.
When you look at DRG's muta/ling/bane games from today vs heart and mkp you can just see how incredibly cost inefficient his banes were, and they're the key to the composition. His muta harass was also pretty much non-existant, they shut them down so hard.
yeah but the fact that DRG .... the best zerg in the world.. is willing to go mutas in a finals of a MLG for 25k.. means that mutas are totally viable.. just because godly MKP beat mutas.. doesnt mean that mutas are not viable in ZvT... and he only made one spire.. so i dont know what you guys are getting at. if the best zerg in the world will go mutas on 3 base.. mutas are viable. if he loses or not it doesnt matter its MKP...
On March 26 2012 09:31 mooseman1710 wrote: yeah but the fact that DRG .... the best zerg in the world.. is willing to go mutas in a finals of a MLG for 25k.. means that mutas are totally viable.. just because godly MKP beat mutas.. doesnt mean that mutas are not viable in ZvT... and he only made one spire.. so i dont know what you guys are getting at. if the best zerg in the world will go mutas on 3 base.. mutas are viable. if he loses or not it doesnt matter its MKP...
It pretty much does mean mutas are not viable, actually, at least not pure idra-style mass mutas. DRG arguably the best player in the world, goes for heavy muta strats repeatedly and lost almost every single time. Queue DRG not being called the best player in the world anymore.
They have their uses, especially if you know you have some tangible advantage - clearing out a huge # of marines before going spire is a decent move, for example, but going spire blindly is not. Thus it can be relegated to a niche, which is fine, but cannot be the centerpiece of a strategy. Mostly ling/baneling with upgrades is the centerpiece.
On March 26 2012 09:31 mooseman1710 wrote: yeah but the fact that DRG .... the best zerg in the world.. is willing to go mutas in a finals of a MLG for 25k.. means that mutas are totally viable.. just because godly MKP beat mutas.. doesnt mean that mutas are not viable in ZvT... and he only made one spire.. so i dont know what you guys are getting at. if the best zerg in the world will go mutas on 3 base.. mutas are viable. if he loses or not it doesnt matter its MKP...
It's not a matter of viability. Everyone knows mutas are viable, it's a matter of the opportunity cost. Heart vs DRG game 2, DRG is in an enormous lead after the bust. He goes mutas and is not able to do a damn thing with them and it actually puts him behind cause he delayed his other tech and upgrades by so much for close to nothing in return. DRG is a phenomenal player yes, but was anyone actually impressed by anything his mutas were able to accomplish?
I think its more about Stephano doing great with his heavy upgrade ground based army rather than Mutas now sucking.
They still are used and still can do damage, but if people see a player doing well without using Mutas much they will copy it.I wouln't jump to conclusions based on not so much data.
On March 26 2012 10:25 crocodile wrote: Thank you guys for spoiling GSL for me. Now let me explain something to you. If DRG goes mass mutas in a game, its viable. End of story. Do you honestly think DRG would go for a strategy if there was even a shred of doubt that it's viable? If it didn't work in practice, or if he thought it wouldn't work AT ALL, he wouldn't do it in gsl. People don't use GSL code S games to prove a point.
Don't come to TL if you don't want to be spoiled after a tournament. You keep going on "it's viable" "it's viable" but look
On March 26 2012 09:58 darkscream wrote: They have their uses, especially if you know you have some tangible advantage
On March 26 2012 09:58 Tachion wrote: It's not a matter of viability. Everyone knows mutas are viable
Honestly what are you responding to? You're not putting much thought or effort into this crocodile.
Instead of racing to muta's on two base, why not delay it them for a bit using ling/bane while getting 6 geysers? 6 geysers in my experience is enough to fund mutas and double evo chamber with banes.
I quit making mutalisks in every matchup. Especially ZvT. They just aren't effective at all. Every terran masses marines, which crush mutas. The greatest strength of mutas is being able to harass, and zerg can't harass because they are constantly on the defensive against aggressive terran play.
On March 26 2012 10:53 sgtjimmy wrote: Instead of racing to muta's on two base, why not delay it them for a bit using ling/bane while getting 6 geysers? 6 geysers in my experience is enough to fund mutas and double evo chamber with banes.
You won't be able to get a third with hellions on the map. That's why in high level play, reactor hellion is so fucking good. By the time you could get your third up, you have to fully saturate your 2 base, and so you might as well lair if your third is going to have to be taken so late. So reactor hellion expand forces zerg to play 'honest' by forcing them to only drone up 2 base, not 3, and only take their third after fully saturating 2 base (because it's not worth making 30 lings just to stave 6 hellions just so you can take your third quicker).
It's not a matter of "why not just get later muta on 3 base", it's a matter of "these fucking hellions keep killing my motherfucking drone every time I try to take my third, fuck this, I'm forced to just drone up 2 base, and I might as well tech up to lair while I'm sitting here".
So if you can get around the hellions, go for it bro. I've never been able to get my third before 60 supply, at least, not without just completely sacc'ing my economy and basically going for a baneling bust and fucking over my economy just the same, but without the intention of baneling busting. That's why builds like reaper expand or 2 rax kind of suck - oh for real no hellions? Boom, third taken, get speed, any kind of 2 base attack is held with proper scouting and banes.
On the other hand, stimmed marines with medivacs are hard to deal with without baneling speed, and drops and banshees are hell without mutas, although it's definitely possible (but hard if you had to deal reactor hellion). Not saying you can't deal with it on hatch tech. This point is actually kind of irrelevant, since it is possible to deal with. It just means T can put on pressure, if you fend it off, oh well, he denied a bit of droning, easily took his third, and had no problem dedicating a timing, and knowing he won't get punished if it's held off and take his third easily.
On a side note, I have seen some zergs go for 2 base roach, using roaches to secure third. I don't know why, but when they do this, they never go mutas, and instead go for infestors, and then super fast hive. I don't know if that just means you can't go mutas doing that, or you can but those particular players preferred infestor play, but that's just an interesting metagame shift I've noticed, and I'm not sure if it's going to be the future of ZvT, or the flavor of the month.
On March 16 2012 09:24 Jermstuddog wrote: This is one of the reasons I got so annoyed with the muta nerf in ZvP.
Mutalisks are a dying unit in SC2
They have already become useless in ZvT, they have failed finding use in ZvZ, and now, they are basically worthless in ZvP.
I made the suggestion before the nerf, and plenty were quick to laugh at the absurdity of my statement, but I am happy to restate the same exact thing.
Mutas were never known for their unrivaled power, otherwise we would see them dominating all match-ups. Rather, the very reason they were so hated by Protoss is the reason why they are bad units in general.
Mutas don't deliver.
While Mutalisks can be good momentarily, in high-level SC2, they do not offer a way to seal a game... More often, by choosing to go muta, the Zerg player is commiting himself to a very weak midgame army and hoping to win through an unchecked mass expansion followup or a bad base trade for his opponent.
Mutalisks should have been buffed, not nerfed. They are quickly losing viability in general, essentially leaving Zerg with the fewest viable units in any matchup. zerglings and roaches are now making up at least 90% of every Zerg army in all matchups and this trend has no signs of slowing down.
Thanks Blizzard for boxing me in to ling/roach in all MUs, that's what makes for interesting games.
It wasn't too long ago that artosis when asked what the best unit in the game was responded with either the ghost or the mutalisk. Mutalisks are incredibly strong in SC2 and they work practically in all matchups. Maybe in the current metagame they arent being used much but that doesn't mean they are useless. DRG arguably the best player in the world uses mutas frequently just not the same way they were being used a year ago. Mutalisks are containment and harassment options. You dont just blindly build them in all matchups (which would still get you to atleast diamond league), you use them situationally, when your opponent stretches himself too thin, or you need to keep them contained for a few min while you get up broodlords or something.
People use to just mass them automatically off two base right when they got lair and it took the metagame a while to phase that out. This is just the sign that the game is getting more advanced. In ZvT specifically terrans are going mass thor alot which would explain why you dont see mutas right away. Mutalisks do not need a buff! lol
i never liked mutalisks in ZvT. they are such a fragile unit and ppl are starting to counter them more and more easily. protoss players can counter them just fine with just blink stalkers and without the need for phoenixes, but blizz just had to answer the call of the whiners and buff phoenixes to hard counter them even more.
i liked destinys infestor style and always used that rather then mutas, but even infestors are not what they use to be because they got hit with the nerf bat to many times.
i honestly dont know what to say about it with me going on a complete rant, but i will 100% agree that mutas are slowly being phased out of all match ups except for ZvZ, but even in ZvZ they are easily countered with infestor hydra.
On March 16 2012 08:26 jrkirby wrote: If people split their banelings, they might be more effective. Not even in the GSL (as far as I've seen) has anyone ever split their banelings to avoid splash from tanks and collosus. I think if they did that, they could do the same damage with less banelings, and use the extra gas to get mutas.
If people individually fired banelings with tanks, then you'd need less tanks, and could use extra gas to get more medivacs.
Possible, but highly unrealistic seeing as it is so difficult to split banelings while micro'ing ten other things, similar to how you would never individually target separate lings or banelings with each tank.
i think he means flank with banelings in each army. most zergs pro tend to clump up banelings when engaging and makes it easier for tanks to take a huge chunk of banelings away.
i cant even believe about mutas are going out. People use them all the time but if your arnt confident in your ability to out multitask your opponent then you don't use them. Violet went mutas in almost every game vs foreigners but went infestor ling vs ganzi and other korean terrans in the tourney that i cant remember :D.....
Mutas are still good but now that terrans now how to defend mediocre harass its the same as reactor hellions. Terrans figured out how to defend standard muta harass and you need to do more than a move to make them useful.
But in the ladder its just that its an old style people are used to, if your gonna play it you need to outmultitask your opponent nowadays imo
^ I don't think you have to have 'better' multitask to use mutas. Terran has to multitask the most in ZvT imo, even if the zerg is using mutas. You don't have to harass with your mutas to make them effective. Now I know I'm pretty bad, and I 'don't use mutas correctly' according to some high masters/GMs I've practiced with, but just fielding them forces Terran to build lots of turrets, stay in his base, and kill off his reinforcements and snip tanks. Basically in a ZvT, as long as you keep your mutas alive and don't run them over marines, whenever he pushes, you will own the push because they add so much dps and snipe tanks so quickly anytime he pushes before really being maxed out with lots of upgrades. But if you lose them, then his push is impossible to deal with. It forces T to stay in his base, and if you lose too many, it means he can push and be effective.
Maybe mutas aren't the metagame trend, but zerg were still staying within reasonable win rates against terran before they 'fell out'. They hardly aren't at the point where they aren't viable, I just think that Zerg is experimenting with a lot of stuff - using roaches to secure their third vs hellions before lair, roach/bane all-ins on 2 base as a possibility to counter fast third by T, having a roach warren on 2 base to possibly go 2 base roach/bane all-in OR fast third before lair and using the roach warren/anti-muta way to possibly all-in if they see a chance too and fall back to fast third play if they don't feel confident it will work, and super fast hive style.
There's also recently been some maps, like Entombed and Antiga, where mutas aren't as good because of lack of airspace, and the thirds being closer meaning it's easier to defend drops with just a ground army, and T is going to take a fast third for free anyways so you might as well take it as a chance to go super fast hive.
I'm not sold on mutas being dead. That said, it's very interesting to see where zerg goes - if this infestor play/ roach for fast third/fast 3 base hive style is going to be better, or if it will be flavor of the month.
On March 26 2012 10:53 sgtjimmy wrote: Instead of racing to muta's on two base, why not delay it them for a bit using ling/bane while getting 6 geysers? 6 geysers in my experience is enough to fund mutas and double evo chamber with banes.
You won't be able to get a third with hellions on the map. That's why in high level play, reactor hellion is so fucking good. By the time you could get your third up, you have to fully saturate your 2 base, and so you might as well lair if your third is going to have to be taken so late. So reactor hellion expand forces zerg to play 'honest' by forcing them to only drone up 2 base, not 3, and only take their third after fully saturating 2 base (because it's not worth making 30 lings just to stave 6 hellions just so you can take your third quicker).
It's not a matter of "why not just get later muta on 3 base", it's a matter of "these fucking hellions keep killing my motherfucking drone every time I try to take my third, fuck this, I'm forced to just drone up 2 base, and I might as well tech up to lair while I'm sitting here".
So if you can get around the hellions, go for it bro. I've never been able to get my third before 60 supply, at least, not without just completely sacc'ing my economy and basically going for a baneling bust and fucking over my economy just the same, but without the intention of baneling busting. That's why builds like reaper expand or 2 rax kind of suck - oh for real no hellions? Boom, third taken, get speed, any kind of 2 base attack is held with proper scouting and banes.
On the other hand, stimmed marines with medivacs are hard to deal with without baneling speed, and drops and banshees are hell without mutas, although it's definitely possible (but hard if you had to deal reactor hellion). Not saying you can't deal with it on hatch tech. This point is actually kind of irrelevant, since it is possible to deal with. It just means T can put on pressure, if you fend it off, oh well, he denied a bit of droning, easily took his third, and had no problem dedicating a timing, and knowing he won't get punished if it's held off and take his third easily.
On a side note, I have seen some zergs go for 2 base roach, using roaches to secure third. I don't know why, but when they do this, they never go mutas, and instead go for infestors, and then super fast hive. I don't know if that just means you can't go mutas doing that, or you can but those particular players preferred infestor play, but that's just an interesting metagame shift I've noticed, and I'm not sure if it's going to be the future of ZvT, or the flavor of the month.
Belial, normally you have an awesome view on the game, but here I completely disagree with you. Defensive roach openers are fantastically good about keeping a certain degree of map control so that you can take a third base at a more desirable time.
I am still flip flopping back and forth between mutas and infestors, and honestly I like mutas! Infestors are so "i sit on my ass and get 200/200 with mass lings and spines and broods," which is not the style of zerg that I think is going to stick around.
It's all about scouting, after all. And synergy. For me, their main purpose is to disrupt. Mining, reinforcements, support units.
Indeed, I agree with all the previous comments: you can't fight T (or stalker heavy P, which is almost all the time...) straight up with mutas; against zerg is better (see below). But I find mutas useful for the following: - general: attack from behind. I found myself in advantage not flying mutas over 3/2 marines (instant gg), but sniping overlords, tanks, maybe some dropships, even chasing zealots. They *disrupt* attacks, attack preparations/continuations etc. - vT (1): prevent early pushes. A handful of mutas (around 8) makes the terran to either go all-in (rarely), relocate SCVs, or go back in base and start pumping turrets. This gives some room to complete a 2/2, expand, or have infestors. You gain those 2-4 minutes to defend the push. - vT(2): already said - defend drops. Although so many times I found 4 spines/1 spore defending mineral line way more efective than mutas. - vZ: overlord sniping. Think they fulfill the corsair role more than combat/harass role, where 2 queens 1-2 spores completely fend off (unless expos or no infestor support). They can fight also hydras, with their insane DPS - because of speed. - vP: here is where mutas really shine. Since protoss cannons are not so dangerous as turrets, mutas can stay longer and kill probes. An observed ratio against 3 cannons/3 turrets is 4-5 SCVs vs 9-10 probes. Needless to say, double disruption.
The usage leave no room for mistakes, however. As soon as you find yourselves flying over a stimpack, blink, or get a fungal, you lose over 60%, or all. This is why I am using flocks around 8-10 but not more (unless mutas all-in, as against 2-port banshees).
Mutas are pretty good in PvZ from a Toss standpoint. Stalkers are alright versus mutas, but mutas can easily avoid stalkers, even with blink if you play carefully. Then when the muta flock reahes a critical point, stalkers just won't do- they just don't do that much damage against them. I personally do a early HT fairly heavy canon build versus Z though, so mutas aren't as good against me.
DRG's muta usage against Heart and MKP (keep in mind, these are Code S+ terrans) did seem fairly ineffective though. I don't think he got much of the usual harass done, and there was a couple moments when he flew over a ball of marines are took pretty severe losses. I think in most ZvT mutas would remain a fairly viable option, though you would have to add another dimension over flying from base to base picking off workers and vulnerable buildings. Perhaps things like backstabs, delaying/ killing marines by setting up baneling mines on retreat paths would help.
Day9 made some really good points in the postgame analysis for game 2 of DRG vs Heart. Drops force the double-ling ground army back, the muta flock is isolated, and then Terran can push. Or something like that, I forgot.
I always felt like zerg's shouldnt be using a harassment unit as the muscle of their army - terran dont tend to mass banshees or reapers, similarly protoss dont mass dt's or pheonix (atleast not as a standard unit composition). I dont play zerg but do tend to realise mutalisks capacity to deal damage feels very low in small numbers by comparison - but i still cant help but feel like the frailty of them would suggest that its a unit that shouldnt be massed.
On March 26 2012 16:05 radiantshadow92 wrote: I still think mutas are better overall then infenstors. I just feel it takes more skill to use though for results that are almost the same.
Its harder to find places to harrass and be cost efficient with ling bling muta, but it can be done and its a harder composition to play against.
Yeah that's how I feel for the most part as well. I think mutalisks are better at least to get 12 or so just to deny drops and some light harassment. With infestors I just see korean terrans dropping the hell out of the zerg and doing quiet a bit of damage even if they put spines there. I do think it is good to be able to do both styles though. I do agree with mutalisk play is less forgiving if you mess up and lose a ton of mutalisks it can cost you the game.
I will always prefer mutalisks but knowing both styles I think is almost a must now in today's zvt ^^.
i never liked mutalisks in ZvT. they are such a fragile unit and ppl are starting to counter them more and more easily. protoss players can counter them just fine with just blink stalkers and without the need for phoenixes, but blizz just had to answer the call of the whiners and buff phoenixes to hard counter them even more.
i liked destinys infestor style and always used that rather then mutas, but even infestors are not what they use to be because they got hit with the nerf bat to many times.
Infestors didn't really get 'nerfed'.
The FG nerf was pretty ineffectual - all t1 units of T, P (stalkers, zealots, sentries, marines, marauders) still die in the same number of FG. If anything, all it did was make clipping more of an issue - in that you have to time your FG a bit better. The critical differences were like, 13 FG to kill a colossi instead of 12, or 8 for a VR instead of 7, but NP was the use on those units, not FG.
Against Terran, really, ghosts and vikings take one more FG. I'm not sure if blizzard didn't care about this, or this was a minor lategame buff to T, that they kind of needed vs bl/infestor. Either way, this means that infestors were not nerfed for the early game. You don't see mass ghosts or vikings until very late into the game, and even then, FG and NP were not the biggest tools zerg used against vikings and ghosts.
So FG was never really nerfed, for the most part, and for the practical part.
NP was completely neutered, however, but it was never really used in ZvT (even against mech, IT spam is more useful).
Now, are infestors viable? I never really thought they were 'viable' in ZvT, even before the nerfs, unless the opponent wasn't sure how to capitalize on an opponent who teched hard, had no units in the midgame - ie didn't take a fast third, and didn't drop more, and didn't tech harder, or made double fact siege tank. But if you used them before the patch, you can use them just the same now.
Just bugs me when people say infestors nerfed -_- NP was neutered, and so it's no longer viable to go infestor/ling in ZvP, and infestors no longer counter colossi, but that's it really. Just take care of your FG, and you should be fine.
Phoenix hardly counter mutas so easily, by the way. To get the range upgrade, and use it effectively as a response to mutas that you scout, you really need to secure 3 bases. If you can secure 3 bases with blink stalkers, I think most people would prefer to go HT then phoenixes to deal with the mutas. And toss no longer has a problem with mutas once they can get 3 bases up and running. It just gives toss more options.
Quit complaining so much, it just sounds like a thinly veiled balance whine. I was as upset as anyone else about the NP nerf, you can read about it on the Designated Balance Thread, I made a ton of posts about it - I never cared about the FG nerf, I actually like that it promotes skill more, but I complained about NP vs colossi. But these days, Zergs have better play. I believe that even if they brought back the old infestor, no top level zerg would use them because muta play in ZvP is just way, way better. That was back when zergs didn't take fast thirds in ZvP.
I feel like people like to use Infestor play more these days because as people said, it let you get a Fast Hive ( not unusual to see 14min ish Hive now ) and Hive tech is something Terran still have trouble to play against.
In the end, most Zerg would agree that you win ZvT when you get Broodlords out. Infestor play is just a quicker and safer way to get there.
When most Terran will be as rounded against that than they were against Muta play, both style will fall in line imo.
Edit :
The FG nerf was pretty ineffectual - all t1 units of T, P (stalkers, zealots, sentries, marines, marauders) still die in the same number of FG. If anything, all it did was make clipping more of an issue - in that you have to time your FG a bit better. The critical differences were like, 13 FG to kill a colossi instead of 12, or 8 for a VR instead of 7, but NP was the use on those units, not FG.
4 Fungal up from 3 to kill Viking is pretty huge tho.
It's the maps that killing off muta play. Just look at the mental abortion that is entombed valley.
1.) 3 compact bases that need as few turrets or cannons as possible to cover and are very easy to get up uncontested. 2.) No way to even get close to tech that can sit in the middle of the three bases, in a game where Terran and Protoss only need 3 bases to build an endgame army. 3.) Only two ramps and a choke between to get to the third or natural for counter attack paths.
On other maps such as antiga shipyards, if the opportunities for muta harass are available then the ability to get ling bane support into play with the mutas aren't. If you look at antiga shipyard, without complete sustained map control it is impossible to get creep past your third to a fourth. Creep can easily be denied as it has to expand out primarily from the corner of the map at your natural and lacking any cliff jumping units and having the slowest to tech to drops and air units means you can't contest any clearing of creep from around the skirts of your main or extending to a fourth in either directions. Add to that the non viability of nydus worms and the exaggerated snaking ground distances for lings and banelings from the main to any 4th and you can't let a double drop even start unloading because the mutas that die while trying to clean up those marines will cost more than the drop itself.
Speed is not a solution to multiple drops on these maps because creep spread can't cut down the travel time enough. You need to simply have units in position at all times to deal with drops and if you're going to do that then you don't need mutas to defend, and if harassment opportunities are terrible as well, why make mutas?
The same thing is happening that has always been happening thanks to Blizzards lack of understanding of their own game. Zerg needs counter attack paths and harassment opportunities and map makers aren't giving them any.
4 Fungal up from 3 to kill Viking is pretty huge tho.
But it's pretty late game when you are fungalling vikings instead of throwing IT's, using mutas, or corruptors, instead. There needs to be a fleet of vikings at that point, to which you aren't using solely infestors to stay alive. Compare that to ling/infestor back in the day vs toss, NP was the sole way to survive Toss getting colossi until you got broodlords basically.
I think you people are deluded. Muta are still a strong option for many games. Especially for ZvP. The Phoenix upgrade did nothing. Mutas still dominate whenever they are used vs Protoss and if anyone bothered to watch recent tournemts you would have noticed how devastating they where. They serve as a powerful counter tech switch when Protoss try to strongly counter heavy Roach play.
A player called Sleep showed how effective this can be in Lone Star Clash where he destroyed almost every Protoss player by doing sudden tech switches into mass Muta. He did not go strait to Muta but waited for things to advance to a certan point. Very effective against Protoss who go double robo. If a Protoss goes double robo then a Muta tech switch is like a free win for Zerg.
On March 26 2012 19:45 AzureD wrote: I think you people are deluded. Muta are still a strong option for many games. Especially for ZvP. The Phoenix upgrade did nothing. Mutas still dominate whenever they are used vs Protoss and if anyone bothered to watch recent tournemts you would have noticed how devastating they where. They serve as a powerful counter tech switch when Protoss try to strongly counter heavy Roach play.
A player called Sleep showed how effective this can be in Lone Star Clash where he destroyed almost every Protoss player by doing sudden tech switches into mass Muta. He did not go strait to Muta but waited for things to advance to a certan point. Very effective against Protoss who go double robo. If a Protoss goes double robo then a Muta tech switch is like a free win for Zerg.
On March 26 2012 16:41 Ziggitz wrote: The same thing is happening that has always been happening thanks to Blizzards lack of understanding of their own game. Zerg needs counter attack paths and harassment opportunities and map makers aren't giving them any.
Too much bias within the community over map layouts and too many map related vulnerabilities that Zerg has to contend with in order for a map to be good for them. Protoss has a similarly tough time with map layouts, as certain layouts pose serious problems for them, but at least they have the ability to wall off and don't need as many bases as Zerg does.
Right now it's pretty much all about Ling/Roach/Infestor, into Broodlord/Corruptor, with a tech switch to Ultralisks if your BLs die to Terran as it's unlikely you will have time to remake them (and the Terran might have too many Vikings at this point).
Muta/Ling/Bane is inefficient, it requires you to have a superior economy (at least one more base than your opponent) in order to make it worthwhile. By having a superior economy, you can justify the inefficient trading with a Terran army. The current map pool and the way top Terrans are now playing on those maps, really reduces the ability for Zerg to have that strong economic edge they so desperately need for such a strategy to work.
i think the mutalisk is the unit that gets played wrong most of the time. For me, it is a unit that gives me additional firepower in a head on battle, just like the hydralisk. If you mass hydralisk and get little to no roaches at all, you will most likely lose, since they soak up so much gas and don't have the hp to back it up. But when paired with roaches they can sit in the back and increase your damage output (where more roaches would just walk in the back of the shooting roaches and can't attack). In ZvP, the zergs have learned this lesson: you cannot just engage a protoss stalker ball with your mutas head on (or at least you shouldn't). You get a ton of lings, and while they tank the damage (and add quite some damage themselves), your mutas add damage to that while taking little to no damage themselves.
Of course, once you get a critical number of mutas, you can fly in and take out bases, but until then, it is often times hardly worth it (mutas aren't really strong in air to ground, so they kill worker too slowly when in numbers < 10 and you usually lose one or two, so until you have enough, don't even try, it is not worth the risk. Flying in 3-5 mutas will kill ~5 worker max if you are really lucky and your opponent is bad, and that is best case possible. A banshee laughs at that.)
in ZvT, it is the same game for me. But here upgrades are even more important for your ground units (zerglings). As long you keep up in upgrades (or are ahead), get some splash damage (banelings/infestors so he has to split/run) and don't take too much drop damage, you should be able to crush attacks. At least that's how i win games (mid-ish master player last time i went ladder)
Fungal Change also affected marines. It is not entirely rare for two stims to go off without being fully healed inbetween. Especially when there are a lot of marines and only a few medivacs. 1 fungal + 2 stims used to kill a marine ball. You add lings into it and that extra 6 health is two more attacks from a zergling (assuming equal upgrades)
I still find muta's to be useful against terran. Even i if it is just getting a few to prompt turret reactions/snipe reinforcements. When the other player is being aggressive, one of the problems is how they are cutting off your reinforcements by attacking/killing the units spawning from that base, if they can also get their reinforcements to stream in and rally with that aggressive ball you are going to lose. If you have 8 muta's stopping the reinforcements from getting to the ball, you have a better chance of eventually pushing the ball away.
A large problem with using mutalisks in standard fights is that you can't get their upgrades. The closest comparison could be to the armory. Terran would need to go barracks --> factory --> armory and zerg would need to go pool-->lair-->spire, however the spire takes 45 seconds more to build and costs double the amount of gas as an armory (in order to try to get double upgrades). and even then if people go double armory they are typically going mech and the upgrades will help all of their units. Going double spire only helps your muta in muta/ling/bling, AFAIK there is no air army zerg build.
Mutas are like water, a strong tide controlling the eb and flow of the matchup. Mutas exploit holes in terran play, keeping them honest with the constant threat of leaking into cracks and bursting them wide open. Mutas need to have their presence exerted over the entire map to be effective.
Infestors are like stone, a strong stationary foundation upon which a zerg can tech to hive while staving off endless waves of terran aggression. Infestors punish bold, foolhardy pushes by over-eager terrans and provide a somewhat "catch-all"solution to most terran gimmicks.
Both units present a viable lair tech option for zerg. What it really comes down to is your opponents mind set, the map, and your personal playstyle.
If a terran is playing passively, looking to aggressively expand and macro going infestors will cater to his whim and he will likely take advantage of your lack of map presence.
An aggressive terran, however, will aim to punish your muta play in an often game-ending fashion.
Both units have their place in zvt and require a unique response from the terran player. I believe the meta game will eventually settle into a state that requires a terran player to scout vigorously for the zergs tech path.(as it should be)
I like to play to take my opponent out of their comfort zone. This means gleaning as much information as possible about my opponents playstyle in the early game so I can either muta all over a passive player or fungal in the face of an aggressive player.
Again, it is all comes down to you. But both the mutalisk and the infestor will play an important role in the zvt metagame for years to come!
On March 26 2012 19:45 AzureD wrote: I think you people are deluded. Muta are still a strong option for many games. Especially for ZvP. The Phoenix upgrade did nothing. Mutas still dominate whenever they are used vs Protoss and if anyone bothered to watch recent tournemts you would have noticed how devastating they where. They serve as a powerful counter tech switch when Protoss try to strongly counter heavy Roach play.
A player called Sleep showed how effective this can be in Lone Star Clash where he destroyed almost every Protoss player by doing sudden tech switches into mass Muta. He did not go strait to Muta but waited for things to advance to a certan point. Very effective against Protoss who go double robo. If a Protoss goes double robo then a Muta tech switch is like a free win for Zerg.
Did you read the title of this thread?
Yes but I am not really responding to the OP so much as other people who have commentated on the other matchups. Mutalisks are also seen sometimes in TvZ. They are still quite effective when in the hands of a very good player. A small group of them can pick off weak points whenever the Terran exposes it such as a lone siege tank or a reactor not covered by AA.
On March 26 2012 20:51 avc wrote: Muta/Ling/Bane is inefficient, it requires you to have a superior economy (at least one more base than your opponent) in order to make it worthwhile. By having a superior economy, you can justify the inefficient trading with a Terran army. The current map pool and the way top Terrans are now playing on those maps, really reduces the ability for Zerg to have that strong economic edge they so desperately need for such a strategy to work.
That's what zerg is all about, no? Have 1+ bases extra, and trade the T to death. Here comes muta for raiding SCVs, gas etc.
Okay, I tried muta again after 2 seasons of not using it. And I have to agree that mutas are not suitable for the current metagame. Terrans are just getting TOO good at stopping muta play that its not worth getting them to harass the opponent. I think there has got to be some meta game changes before mutas get viable again. Of course, I am not saying they need a buff btw, I am just saying meta game changes. I hope people don't get me wrong. Its two different things.
As people are stating in the thread, the pro's are mainly using infestor ling style now, personally as a Terran I think this is an more effective style, because you can still be mobile with your lings/blings but with infestor/ling/bling you have much better upgrades and infestors compared to muta's, so imo you gotta do quite a lot of damage with your muta's else if the Terran plays well they'll punish the zerg by getting an much more effecient army, and minimize the damage done by the zerg.
On March 26 2012 20:51 avc wrote: Muta/Ling/Bane is inefficient, it requires you to have a superior economy (at least one more base than your opponent) in order to make it worthwhile. By having a superior economy, you can justify the inefficient trading with a Terran army. The current map pool and the way top Terrans are now playing on those maps, really reduces the ability for Zerg to have that strong economic edge they so desperately need for such a strategy to work.
That's what zerg is all about, no? Have 1+ bases extra, and trade the T to death. Here comes muta for raiding SCVs, gas etc.
You're kinda right but when the Zerg trades with the Terran it has to be efficient as well.
On March 27 2012 15:02 SeventhPride wrote: Okay, I tried muta again after 2 seasons of not using it. And I have to agree that mutas are not suitable for the current metagame. Terrans are just getting TOO good at stopping muta play that its not worth getting them to harass the opponent. I think there has got to be some meta game changes before mutas get viable again. Of course, I am not saying they need a buff btw, I am just saying meta game changes. I hope people don't get me wrong. Its two different things.
To be fair if you dont go muta for 2 seasons you can't expect to do very well with it instantly when you try, they still have use but it's map dependand.
Seems as though mutas no longer have a place in starcraft 2 atm. Like someone mentioned earlier, can only work against people making mistakes. I would like to add that applies across all match ups. Mutas imo just aren't good when people play good, regardless of match up. I base my opinion on my own humble play, as well as pro tournament play. I'm not saying they are useless. I just feel that the things they accomplish aren't worth the investment vs other available options. You briefly get map control if any, or you can harass briefly, if at all. They can sometimes come out on top in a base trade situation v protoss. Those things are ok, but just not worth it to me. The base trade situation is way to big of a coin flip. Any other examples you can provide for mutas being used effectively will typically be an example of someone making a mistake. This is just because everyone has gotten vastly better since the release of Starcraft 2. Again, this is my opinion, I'm sure there is still plenty of zergs that don't feel the same way.
On March 16 2012 09:24 Jermstuddog wrote: This is one of the reasons I got so annoyed with the muta nerf in ZvP.
Mutalisks are a dying unit in SC2
They have already become useless in ZvT, they have failed finding use in ZvZ, and now, they are basically worthless in ZvP.
I made the suggestion before the nerf, and plenty were quick to laugh at the absurdity of my statement, but I am happy to restate the same exact thing.
Mutas were never known for their unrivaled power, otherwise we would see them dominating all match-ups. Rather, the very reason they were so hated by Protoss is the reason why they are bad units in general.
Mutas don't deliver.
While Mutalisks can be good momentarily, in high-level SC2, they do not offer a way to seal a game... More often, by choosing to go muta, the Zerg player is commiting himself to a very weak midgame army and hoping to win through an unchecked mass expansion followup or a bad base trade for his opponent.
Mutalisks should have been buffed, not nerfed. They are quickly losing viability in general, essentially leaving Zerg with the fewest viable units in any matchup. zerglings and roaches are now making up at least 90% of every Zerg army in all matchups and this trend has no signs of slowing down.
Thanks Blizzard for boxing me in to ling/roach in all MUs, that's what makes for interesting games.
Thanks Blizzard for boxing me into marines in all MUs when i random terran. Thanks Blizzard for boxing me into stalkers in all MUs when i random protoss.
On March 26 2012 19:45 AzureD wrote: I think you people are deluded. Muta are still a strong option for many games. Especially for ZvP. The Phoenix upgrade did nothing. Mutas still dominate whenever they are used vs Protoss and if anyone bothered to watch recent tournemts you would have noticed how devastating they where. They serve as a powerful counter tech switch when Protoss try to strongly counter heavy Roach play.
A player called Sleep showed how effective this can be in Lone Star Clash where he destroyed almost every Protoss player by doing sudden tech switches into mass Muta. He did not go strait to Muta but waited for things to advance to a certan point. Very effective against Protoss who go double robo. If a Protoss goes double robo then a Muta tech switch is like a free win for Zerg.
Did you read the title of this thread?
LOL. Apparently none of us were bothered to watch recent tournaments (because we all actually have time to watch tournaments, by the way), yet he didn't bother to read the title ^^. People love to fight.
Muta/Ling/Bane is inefficient, it requires you to have a superior economy (at least one more base than your opponent) in order to make it worthwhile. By having a superior economy, you can justify the inefficient trading with a Terran army. The current map pool and the way top Terrans are now playing on those maps, really reduces the ability for Zerg to have that strong economic edge they so desperately need for such a strategy to work.
I don't completely agree. Zerg doesn't need to be ahead of bases in Terran as desperately as they do in ZvP - they can survive with even bases, they just have to get their next base quicker than the opponent (or saturate it quicker, in case of fast third T). But banes are so cost efficient, and mutas are quite good at dealing damage, it's very easy for zerg to completely roll a T army, especially if they aren't perfectly sieged up or focus fire banes in time. Zerg can just outproduce terran so quickly.
I have lots of games as lingbanemuta where I just completely stomp terran armies, simply by going lings instead of that extra 10 drones.
. But here upgrades are even more important for your ground units (zerglings).
I completely disagree. When playing muta style, upgrades aren't that important at all for lings. Getting +1 carapace before Terran gets +1 vehicles is very important (not as important as baneling speed, but close), but otherwise, upgrades on lings throughout the course of the game are not that important. Until you reach 4 bases or 200/200, you are better off spending that gas on more mutas or banelings. Banelings and mutas are the huge damage dealers, not lings. There are no critical hit numbers after 0/1 - +1 tanks or thors kill lings in same number of shots no matter what armor they are after +1 vehicle is on. As for marines, +1 attack or carapace is just an extra hit, for both marines and lings, against the other.
Lings rape marines 1 v 1, in the open, pretty hard, but it gets to be a numbers game for the most part, but if you have a bunch of lings, you will win even with upgrade disadvantage (not saying 40 lings vs 20 marines, but just having enough lings, in the open). Now what really changes everything, is siege tanks, which basically ignore armor after +1, and medivacs, which 3/3 adrenal won't cut through marine+medivac 0/0. But with muta or baneling support, it will.
Once you get 4 bases or 200/200, yea, definitely go double evo, it really helps out broodlings. I'm not saying don't get upgrades. I just disagree with the idea that upgrades are 'extremely important' due to siege tanks, medivacs, and banelings and mutas.
Problem with mutas is that it is impossible to upgrade them in a reasonable time. Even with double spire.
So they melt to opponents upgraded units.
They melt with upgrades too. That's not how you should be engaging with mutas. Mutas should not really be hit, or choosing when they engage against small groups of defending marines.
I did a bunch of testing with upgrades on mutas in:
With ling/bane support, mutas do fine. And upgrades aren't the problem.
Fungal Change also affected marines. It is not entirely rare for two stims to go off without being fully healed inbetween. Especially when there are a lot of marines and only a few medivacs. 1 fungal + 2 stims used to kill a marine ball. You add lings into it and that extra 6 health is two more attacks from a zergling (assuming equal upgrades)
2 FG to kill marines, same as before. You just need to be more careful about clipping, and micro your FG better.
An aggressive terran, however, will aim to punish your muta play in an often game-ending fashion.
I don't think so. Quite the contrary, mutas will punish a terran for being too aggressive, by providing so much damage and sniping tanks in the engagement, that you just fucking roll him. By keeping your ever growing muta flock alive, you deny terran from being aggressive, because he knows you'll pick off reinforcements, delay his push while your superior econ is reaping benefits, and then when he arrives, you just completely roll his army with ling/bane and tons of mutas adding sheer damage.
What can happen, is Terran can be aggressive and punish you if you lose too many mutas by just being completely careless and flying mutas over marines or going through turrets on one side of his base and then through more on the other side. By keeping your mutas alive, you assure that any T push will be crushed before he's really near maxed out and teched up.
You punish any T who is too aggressive - which is the catch T finds themselves in in ZvT, if they are aggressive, you kill them and just push and pull them everywhere, if they aren't aggressive, zerg gets 5 bases and a ton of broodlord/infestor/spines.
Okay, I tried muta again after 2 seasons of not using it. And I have to agree that mutas are not suitable for the current metagame. Terrans are just getting TOO good at stopping muta play that its not worth getting them to harass the opponent. I think there has got to be some meta game changes before mutas get viable again. Of course, I am not saying they need a buff btw, I am just saying meta game changes. I hope people don't get me wrong. Its two different things.
I seriously doubt your few games after 3 months of not playing mutas is definitive proof of it not working. I've played high masters with muta play. I play as a mid-masters with mutas every ZvT. My win rate is very, very positive in ZvT (statistically, it's my best match-up).
I haven't seen any 'metagame' shift where T just blind counters my muta play.
I get mutas, T is forced to stay in his base, as long as I keep them alive and expand/drone correctly, any push he does is crushed, or T is forced to stay in his base so long that I get broodlord/infestor.
The only time I lose in ZvT is when I stupidly lose too many mutas, like flying them into his base too aggressively over too many turrets, fly over marines (happens way too often then it should), or I don't drone up my third enough (especially against fast third T) and T just wins the game by having too big of an econ lead because I'm sort of all-inning without knowing it. I deal with drops very well (maybe not well, maybe overreact is a better term, I put 2-5 patrol banes and spines when I have 4 bases, sometimes earlier like on close air or if I scout drop heavy play).
But besides a few bad decisions on games where I went for base trade when T pushed out when I should not have (it's happened a few times, but even then, that's more of 'losing too many mutas after realizing T is walled in too well after he left his base and then flying mutas over his marines when going back to home to defend'), the only time I lose ZvT is not droning up third hard enough sometimes, or stupidly losing too many mutas.
or bullshit fucking close spawn antiga or entombed, like they just drop from their third with siege tank and turrets protection. That's just fucking lame as shit.
As people are stating in the thread, the pro's are mainly using infestor ling style now, personally as a Terran I think this is an more effective style
I don't think it's the infestors per se that is so awesome of what the pros are doing (really? every pro?), but it's the fast third style behind roaches, or super fast 3 base hive. I think it's just a new turtle style zerg who just gets infestors to turtle better and faster transition to hive.
the only problem i see with mutas atm is that the counter thors, which should not happen.
Yea, thors have never been a problem for me as Zerg. Whenever I see them, and I always go mutas, I am happy because it's less tanks, and less marines, and less medivacs. The thor is just so useless against the real meat of my army, the ling/bane. I just magic box over the thor, snipe it quickly, then focus the tanks down while the thors did nothing to stop the mass of ling/bane.
The terrans I have trouble with most, are the ones that stay just on marine/tank/medivac, macro well, and just continually send waves of marine/tank/medivac to my further and further apart bases while I have to dedicate my entire army to each half of their's they send, to which one will kill a hatch unimpeded.
i almst always do mutalisk play zvt because of drops. i find it more comfortable than using infestors/queen spines for defence. instead i enjoy spotting medivacs with my overlords and going over to kill them =) not to mention that poking into his base with mutas often give me a good sense of his army size and tech
The only time I lose in ZvT is when I stupidly lose too many mutas, like flying them into his base too aggressively over too many turrets, fly over marines (happens way too often then it should), or I don't drone up my third enough (especially against fast third T) and T just wins the game by having too big of an econ lead because I'm sort of all-inning without knowing it. I deal with drops very well (maybe not well, maybe overreact is a better term, I put 2-5 patrol banes and spines when I have 4 bases, sometimes earlier like on close air or if I scout drop heavy play).
Muta open a nice timing for Terran to kill you before Hive tech kick in. I can't even remember how many pro games Zerg lost with this style, where Terran turtle up to 170 supply against Mutaplay, and make a huge doom push when his upgrades finish just when you're spending money on teching to BLs. And when Terran is nearly max, with 7 to 8 tanks, they roll over MutalingBane like nothing.
Infestor play don't open you to this kind of timing, because you have Hive tech up to 4min earlier.
The problem isn't mutalisk play being weak or unviable. It's infestor/ling being amazingly strong. It counter everything, so it vastly reduces the need for scouting, and you can just rush to hive tech and win. Requires less multitask and skill in general for a higher win percentage, so a lot more players do it.
On March 27 2012 17:45 Belial88 wrote: I don't completely agree. Zerg doesn't need to be ahead of bases in Terran as desperately as they do in ZvP - they can survive with even bases, they just have to get their next base quicker than the opponent (or saturate it quicker, in case of fast third T). But banes are so cost efficient, and mutas are quite good at dealing damage, it's very easy for zerg to completely roll a T army, especially if they aren't perfectly sieged up or focus fire banes in time. Zerg can just outproduce terran so quickly.
I have lots of games as lingbanemuta where I just completely stomp terran armies, simply by going lings instead of that extra 10 drones.
I don't agree at all with your assessment of "bases" in ZvT. Mules change absolutely everything, which is why you need n+10 drones mining minerals where n is the terran's number of scv's. However, minerals aren't as important is the gas income - the zerg army requires so much more gas than the terran army to be cost effective when you're going muta ling bane. Infestor ling is more sustainable on even numbers of geysers because lings don't actually cost anything. What I don't understand about the current trend of ZvT is why more zerg's dont play fast third while opening a few roaches to completely shut down hellion harassment and early marine timings. (If you've never tried this, roaches are ridiculously good against marines before they get reasonable numbers of medivacs out.) I've been doing this lately and it just feels so incredibly smooth instead of that time where you're on 2 bases and just sitting there staring at your spire waiting for it to finish so you can go take a third base.
I completely disagree. When playing muta style, upgrades aren't that important at all for lings. Getting +1 carapace before Terran gets +1 vehicles is very important (not as important as baneling speed, but close), but otherwise, upgrades on lings throughout the course of the game are not that important. Until you reach 4 bases or 200/200, you are better off spending that gas on more mutas or banelings. Banelings and mutas are the huge damage dealers, not lings. There are no critical hit numbers after 0/1 - +1 tanks or thors kill lings in same number of shots no matter what armor they are after +1 vehicle is on. As for marines, +1 attack or carapace is just an extra hit, for both marines and lings, against the other.
Lings rape marines 1 v 1, in the open, pretty hard, but it gets to be a numbers game for the most part, but if you have a bunch of lings, you will win even with upgrade disadvantage (not saying 40 lings vs 20 marines, but just having enough lings, in the open). Now what really changes everything, is siege tanks, which basically ignore armor after +1, and medivacs, which 3/3 adrenal won't cut through marine+medivac 0/0. But with muta or baneling support, it will.
Once you get 4 bases or 200/200, yea, definitely go double evo, it really helps out broodlings. I'm not saying don't get upgrades. I just disagree with the idea that upgrades are 'extremely important' due to siege tanks, medivacs, and banelings and mutas.
Yeah, you definitely can't support double evo when going mutas, that's just silly. Lings just exist to eat damage so you can get your banes into melee range when playing this style, and if you're lucky you can keep the marines clumped to increase bane effectiveness by over 9000. Just get one evo that upgrades continuously throughout your process of making mutas and add a second when you get hive.
They melt with upgrades too. That's not how you should be engaging with mutas. Mutas should not really be hit, or choosing when they engage against small groups of defending marines.
I did a bunch of testing with upgrades on mutas in:
With ling/bane support, mutas do fine. And upgrades aren't the problem.
The reason double spire is so beast is that 3/3 mutas basically give you impunity to turrets unless he legit masses 6 turrets at each entry path to their base, and that's just a waste of money. It forces thors which means less tanks which means its easier to crush the terran army when it moves out.
You just have to use banelings more efficiently (read: burrow) to do the double spire opening since you want to spend as little gas on banes as possible and just mass your muta ball. Leenock did this so well in the code s finals 2 seasons ago it blew me away.
2 FG to kill marines, same as before. You just need to be more careful about clipping, and micro your FG better.
What is clipping?
Yea, thors have never been a problem for me as Zerg. Whenever I see them, and I always go mutas, I am happy because it's less tanks, and less marines, and less medivacs. The thor is just so useless against the real meat of my army, the ling/bane. I just magic box over the thor, snipe it quickly, then focus the tanks down while the thors did nothing to stop the mass of ling/bane.
The terrans I have trouble with most, are the ones that stay just on marine/tank/medivac, macro well, and just continually send waves of marine/tank/medivac to my further and further apart bases while I have to dedicate my entire army to each half of their's they send, to which one will kill a hatch unimpeded.
I'm actually super shit at engaging terran armies with thors in it. If you click on tanks then two thors kill every muta in two hits, and if you attempt to magic box then terran stims and kills all your mutas anyway.
I don't agree at all with your assessment of "bases" in ZvT. Mules change absolutely everything, which is why you need n+10 drones mining minerals where n is the terran's number of scv's. However, minerals aren't as important is the gas income - the zerg army requires so much more gas than the terran army to be cost effective when you're going muta ling bane. Infestor ling is more sustainable on even numbers of geysers because lings don't actually cost anything. What I don't understand about the current trend of ZvT is why more zerg's dont play fast third while opening a few roaches to completely shut down hellion harassment and early marine timings. (If you've never tried this, roaches are ridiculously good against marines before they get reasonable numbers of medivacs out.) I've been doing this lately and it just feels so incredibly smooth instead of that time where you're on 2 bases and just sitting there staring at your spire waiting for it to finish so you can go take a third base.
I'm not going to say you're wrong man, sure.
I just don't see it as pressing of an issue as in ZvP. I mean, what do you do if T goes reactor hellion double cc? do you automatically lose because it's impossible to take third vs hellions? No. You just eventually secure 3rd after droning up 2 bases, and then after making enough speedling and 2 base lair, you just completely saturate 3rd.
My problem with going roaches to get third, is that it just hurts your econ so much I feel. And then you get a third around 40 supply, and then your lair is just sooo impossible late. But whatever, it's been shown to be viable recently.
I don't wait for spire to grab third in ZvT. I drone up 2 bases, get lair and macro hatch, and while they are making, make lings after saturating 2 base to shoo away hellions. You take third, no matter how fast T takes third. How much you drone it up though, is decided upon how fast T takes his third.
What is clipping?
When your spell, like storm or FG, overlaps. That's why someoen who spams storm or FG is so silly. You see toss do it, I'm sure you have on ladder. It's a waste. Yes, the marines live to shoot 2 more shots off I supose, but it still same number of FG to kill. Because spells don't stack.
I'm actually super shit at engaging terran armies with thors in it. If you click on tanks then two thors kill every muta in two hits, and if you attempt to magic box then terran stims and kills all your mutas anyway.
He's not going to stim and kill all your mutas. As long as your mutas don't run way ahead of your army, your ling/bane will force the marines to run away while your lings eat the apart the tanks at close range that have no marine support, or they rip apart the marines because he has a smaller marine/tank/medivac army, and then once thor is gone you just ttrash through everything. Whenever I see thors, I just notice T army is just soooo much smaller and I rip it apart so easily as long as I magic box. A lot of times a lot of stuff is under the thor too, so while you kill thor you are hurting tanks or whatever too. It doesn't take long for 25 mutas to rip apart a thor.
In my opinion (I watch as much as i can of the scene and try to keep tabs on the metagame and such), I think its just a metagame shift (more bio heavy terran play), as well as a change in the maps. If you look at most of the newer maps (metropolis, entombed valley, antiga) Muta harass has become much harder because it is almost impossible to jump between bases without running through the entire base (and thus the AA that you are running from as well). And if you look at bio play (eg the final game at this weekends MLG between MKP and DRG on metalopolis), the aggressive tempo of this playstyle and the ridiculous micro at top level basically requires infesters to beat since you won't be landing many good bane hits and get spread/kited all day. As well, you can't pin a bio player in his base with muta (the way you can snipe tanks when they are used) because it is such a mobile force and will just run you over. Also the macro steam roll style taht is similar to the bio heavy style is becoming more popular, and you need infesters to break the tempo in order to be able to get BLs (which have so much synergy with infesters as opposed to muta's).
That might be a bit of a rambling post, but essentially i just think its a metagame/map pool change. Muta's are still used (DRG vs MKP game on shakuras, DRG crushed MKP's marine tank push with muta/ling/bane), they just aren't the core strategy anymore, that is shifting more towards infester/ling.
For casual play, its just simply easier to use infesters.
I don't agree at all with your assessment of "bases" in ZvT. Mules change absolutely everything, which is why you need n+10 drones mining minerals where n is the terran's number of scv's. However, minerals aren't as important is the gas income - the zerg army requires so much more gas than the terran army to be cost effective when you're going muta ling bane. Infestor ling is more sustainable on even numbers of geysers because lings don't actually cost anything. What I don't understand about the current trend of ZvT is why more zerg's dont play fast third while opening a few roaches to completely shut down hellion harassment and early marine timings. (If you've never tried this, roaches are ridiculously good against marines before they get reasonable numbers of medivacs out.) I've been doing this lately and it just feels so incredibly smooth instead of that time where you're on 2 bases and just sitting there staring at your spire waiting for it to finish so you can go take a third base.
I'm not going to say you're wrong man, sure.
I just don't see it as pressing of an issue as in ZvP. I mean, what do you do if T goes reactor hellion double cc? do you automatically lose because it's impossible to take third vs hellions? No. You just eventually secure 3rd after droning up 2 bases, and then after making enough speedling and 2 base lair, you just completely saturate 3rd.
My problem with going roaches to get third, is that it just hurts your econ so much I feel. And then you get a third around 40 supply, and then your lair is just sooo impossible late. But whatever, it's been shown to be viable recently.
I don't wait for spire to grab third in ZvT. I drone up 2 bases, get lair and macro hatch, and while they are making, make lings after saturating 2 base to shoo away hellions. You take third, no matter how fast T takes third. How much you drone it up though, is decided upon how fast T takes his third.
When your spell, like storm or FG, overlaps. That's why someoen who spams storm or FG is so silly. You see toss do it, I'm sure you have on ladder. It's a waste. Yes, the marines live to shoot 2 more shots off I supose, but it still same number of FG to kill. Because spells don't stack.
I'm actually super shit at engaging terran armies with thors in it. If you click on tanks then two thors kill every muta in two hits, and if you attempt to magic box then terran stims and kills all your mutas anyway.
He's not going to stim and kill all your mutas. As long as your mutas don't run way ahead of your army, your ling/bane will force the marines to run away while your lings eat the apart the tanks at close range that have no marine support, or they rip apart the marines because he has a smaller marine/tank/medivac army, and then once thor is gone you just ttrash through everything. Whenever I see thors, I just notice T army is just soooo much smaller and I rip it apart so easily as long as I magic box. A lot of times a lot of stuff is under the thor too, so while you kill thor you are hurting tanks or whatever too. It doesn't take long for 25 mutas to rip apart a thor.
Double post i know, but I thought i would include an example of the quick double CC from terran and what you can do. I realise that Leenock eventually lost this game, but i think it is a great example (albeit 4 months old) of the potential of muta/ling/bnane to punish a greedy terran. Leenock crushes MVP's army and then kills the 3rdm while saturating a 3rd of his own (which was actually later than the Terran's third).
When I am playing tvz and I see mutas I feel relieved on the inside. Mutas are just totally trash units. I will build 10 missile turrets and take another base. I don't think I have taken any significant damage from mutas in my past 10 games. Infestors are much more scary. Also I don't see why you would get mutas vs terran anymore. Most terrans like me want to get a quick 3rd. They effectively pin themselves to their base for a while, isnt this the purpose of mutas?
On March 28 2012 05:49 Fealthas wrote: When I am playing tvz and I see mutas I feel relieved on the inside. Mutas are just totally trash units. I will build 10 missile turrets and take another base. I don't think I have taken any significant damage from mutas in my past 10 games. Infestors are much more scary. Also I don't see why you would get mutas vs terran anymore. Most terrans like me want to get a quick 3rd. They effectively pin themselves to their base for a while, isnt this the purpose of mutas?
If you outskill you opponent and are confident mutas are still a great choice to end games earlier and more in your control. See DRG vs heart in the recent mlg and violet in recent tourneys (violet went mutas vs lesser foreign T's and ling infestor vs the better korean terrans).
As you would expect, as pros get better at defending mutas and developing counter muta builds causals like us will watch pros enough to copy the same builds and unintentionally the benefits vs mutas follow. Couple this with a decreasing amount of airspace (cloud kingdom antiga vs shakuras and maps with very close air) and mutas naturally become harder to use.
Also ling infestor is soooo much easier to manage i just started switching a couple days ago and its so nice to not have to micro mutas all day so i can focus on creep and macroing.
They still work on maps that age open (shakuras and korhal) but they are much much harder to use not that maps like cloud kingdom and entombed exist than past ladder maps. So if you arnt sure you can out-multitask your opponent dont go mutas.
TLDR: In this stage of the map pool/pro player imitation mutas are alot harder to use than ling infestor so a change in popularity will occur. You can still make them work but you better be damn good with them. "Im ok with them " just doesnt cut it now
Ling infestor is easier for the zerg and they can focus on just macroing for the most part since you don't have to constantly babysit the mutas. Out of all the recent TvZ's I've played I think 9/10 players are going ling/infestor now. Drops are slightly better, but lings are so fast that you can react pretty quickly
imo mutas are a unit to pick away at terran while you get up in base and gas count. im usually not very behind in ups because im on 8 gas and hes on 2 or 3 min bases. when you are able to kill medivacs and tanks that you couldnt with infestors you will realize WOW mutas are a lot more effective as an overall mid-late game build.
On March 16 2012 08:26 jrkirby wrote: If people split their banelings, they might be more effective. Not even in the GSL (as far as I've seen) has anyone ever split their banelings to avoid splash from tanks and collosus. I think if they did that, they could do the same damage with less banelings, and use the extra gas to get mutas.
If people individually fired banelings with tanks, then you'd need less tanks, and could use extra gas to get more medivacs.
Possible, but highly unrealistic seeing as it is so difficult to split banelings while micro'ing ten other things, similar to how you would never individually target separate lings or banelings with each tank.
I always shift attack click my tanks on banelings in these engagements in addition to microing back stimmed marines. This is not to say that "[i would] need less tanks." Even if Terrans commit and execute near perfect micro on even supply engagements, the outcome is generally that both sides trade evenly with Zerg being at least 1 base ahead. If Terran fails their micro, that engagement very likely costs the game.
I think we are seeing less muta because Zergs are realizing that there are a lot of other good options. Only making a few mutas forces Terran to play more defensively, commit more resources to static anti air, and allocate more army to marines. All of this slows down the Terran's expansions and forces more lower tier units, which are hard countered by other late game units.
This grants zergs to go into ultra/infestor/ling/bane play or even fast Broodlords. I think Zergs started using other units and realized that although mutas are fantastic, they have many different ways to win. When I offrace as zerg, I think the ultra/infestor comp. v Terran is insanely strong. I think even the top Terrans like DeMuslim are still unsure how to play against it. But that's not the only zerg composition that professional Terrans are having trouble with right now.
On March 16 2012 08:56 romelako wrote: Mutalisks are definitely going out of style and I think it's just because of the relative "ease" of using infestors, since you can fight the terran army head on and you don't have to constantly be harassing/defending drops with mutalisks. On the other hand, I feel that going infestors means you have less of a grasp on the pace of the game, and you kind of play passively until you can get units that you can actually attack siege lines with.
All in all, I still stick to mutas just because I'm more comfortable using them and can micro pretty well. Although, on certain maps, ling/infestor is the way to go and I really ought to develop that style.
You don't have to play passively with ling/infestor at all, I research overlord drops in ZvT and make multi ling drops when T move out, very fun style I find.
On March 28 2012 01:14 Belial88 wrote: I'm not going to say you're wrong man, sure.
I just don't see it as pressing of an issue as in ZvP. I mean, what do you do if T goes reactor hellion double cc? do you automatically lose because it's impossible to take third vs hellions? No. You just eventually secure 3rd after droning up 2 bases, and then after making enough speedling and 2 base lair, you just completely saturate 3rd.
My problem with going roaches to get third, is that it just hurts your econ so much I feel. And then you get a third around 40 supply, and then your lair is just sooo impossible late. But whatever, it's been shown to be viable recently.
I don't wait for spire to grab third in ZvT. I drone up 2 bases, get lair and macro hatch, and while they are making, make lings after saturating 2 base to shoo away hellions. You take third, no matter how fast T takes third. How much you drone it up though, is decided upon how fast T takes his third.
sorry I didn't mean to be like "you're wrong" as much as I sounded. I just completely hate that feeling where you're in your base behind lings and queens droning up 2 bases where the terran has complete impunity to do whatever he wants with the map. I've been messing around with roaches so much lately in zvt and I think they have a really good place in the early/mid game before terrans get a sufficient number of medivacs, plus its not like you have to go pure roach infestor in the midgame... I just get 5-6 roaches to retake map control and secure my third hatchery fast, and then play completely normally from there.
When your spell, like storm or FG, overlaps. That's why someoen who spams storm or FG is so silly. You see toss do it, I'm sure you have on ladder. It's a waste. Yes, the marines live to shoot 2 more shots off I supose, but it still same number of FG to kill. Because spells don't stack.
Oh, that. Yeah it's really stupid i just didn't know what you meant.
My main problem with mutas in zvt was that upgraded marines literally became invincible, able to kill whole ling armies with some medivacs and a handful of marines. Banelings were extremely inefficient because Terrans learned how to split marines like MKP.
When Stephano showed everyone infestors in zvt, we were all "O.o...lolwut? no way...how do you defend vs drops?" Now, drops are extremely easy to defend, if not easier. I even keep a little pack of zerglings around with enough to kill double medivac drops.
Not to mention, staying ahead of the T in upgrades is incredibly helpful. Marines actually die, even when accompanied by medivacs...and in addition to fungal...lol...marines don't stand a chance.
This is why I enjoy infestor/ling over mutas in zvt.
Of course...now early stim/hellion timings are becoming a problem...but...I think blings are the answer to that...or roaches...
Actually, I think the popularity of the ling infestor style might also be an effect of the ghost nerf.
1) Terrans have to make vikings vs BLs so less ghosts which means infestors will have less chance of EMPs
2) More importantly, the meta game for zergs now seems to be playing defensive with ling/infestor and tech to BLs. Previously, they had to keep the terran on lower econ because if the terran got to that critical mass of 12-15 ghosts, they became almost impossible to break. So zergs would have to use mutas to harass to keep the econ low. This opened up a timing for terrans to hit before BLs. Now, without really having to harass as much, zergs can produce ling/infestor and be fairly safe vs the big marine/tank pushes. Although without mutas, zergs are slight more suspectible to drop play. So you see zergs with a good zergling split up and playing more defensive.
I've always felt that mutas were very situational. I don't think that they're obsolete - but I find the SC2 community is very trendy with strategies "oh, this is how you play zvt huh, so every game I'm going to throw up turrets at the x minute mark because everybody makes mutas at this point"
It's like you're not actually trying to beat your opponent , you're just trying to re-enact a play and then you wonder why a fragile unit that relies on some element of surprise stops being effective.
On March 16 2012 08:56 romelako wrote: Mutalisks are definitely going out of style and I think it's just because of the relative "ease" of using infestors, since you can fight the terran army head on and you don't have to constantly be harassing/defending drops with mutalisks. On the other hand, I feel that going infestors means you have less of a grasp on the pace of the game, and you kind of play passively until you can get units that you can actually attack siege lines with.
All in all, I still stick to mutas just because I'm more comfortable using them and can micro pretty well. Although, on certain maps, ling/infestor is the way to go and I really ought to develop that style.
You don't have to play passively with ling/infestor at all, I research overlord drops in ZvT and make multi ling drops when T move out, very fun style I find.
I do this as well, and it is a very powerful tool. I basically do cliff-walking zergling runbys, assisted by overlords.
On March 28 2012 12:25 vthree wrote: Actually, I think the popularity of the ling infestor style might also be an effect of the ghost nerf.
1) Terrans have to make vikings vs BLs so less ghosts which means infestors will have less chance of EMPs
2) More importantly, the meta game for zergs now seems to be playing defensive with ling/infestor and tech to BLs. Previously, they had to keep the terran on lower econ because if the terran got to that critical mass of 12-15 ghosts, they became almost impossible to break. So zergs would have to use mutas to harass to keep the econ low. This opened up a timing for terrans to hit before BLs. Now, without really having to harass as much, zergs can produce ling/infestor and be fairly safe vs the big marine/tank pushes. Although without mutas, zergs are slight more suspectible to drop play. So you see zergs with a good zergling split up and playing more defensive.
while both of those things are true, its important to note that the ghost nerf actually buffed snipes vs infestors, making it take 2 instead of 3 becuase of the armored bonus. So now instead of emping infestors people just snipe them. ]
as for the implication that has for the metagame, I think the only way muta tech can become viable again is double spire builds. while players still need to work out defense timings for such a heavy air investment, I think after a while people will come up with solid DS builds that transition easily into upgraded broodlords
My prediction is that muta play will return with the change that instead of getting a fast +1 attack, zergs will instead opt for armor upgrades on air units on the basis that every single anti air unit in the terran arsenal is doubly or quadruply affected by doing so.
Basically everything the terran arsenal has which is able to shoot up has multiple attacks. This is why terran air armor is more expensive than air attack, because against other terrans, air armor is better (also ravens and medivacs but hey). Missile turrets, Thors, Vikings, all have weak multiple attacks against air, and even marines which do a very small amount of damage very very fast. I don't know if anyone has done the math, but I'm sure that a +1 armor muta does better in a straight up fight vs a +1 attack marine than vice versa due to the fire rate of the muta. Then you consider micro, where your mutas are diving in, firing a single massed volley to snipe a single target and then retreating again and your armor is going to be far more useful, so long as you're controlling them with that in mind.
But that isn't why zergs should get air armor, air attack is very likely the better all around upgrade for mutas in 90% of combat situations, but for broodlords, the only things they're going to reasonably be taking fire of any kind from are vikings. Vikings fire 2 relatively weak rockets per volley which means your broodlords take 2 points less damage per volley. The trade off is your broodlords do 2 less damage per broodlings strike... Wait what's the trade off again?
Now about ghosts being more effective vs infestors... Yes... and then again very very no. The trouble is, while they might hard counter infestors with snipe, they hard fail against every other unit in the zerg army except for perhaps the hydralisk (he said with no lack of sarcasm). Sure, you snipe the infestor no problem, but then what do you do? Your ghosts cost more money than the infestor it just sniped, they force an unwanted techlab onto your barracks, they're too slow to keep up with a stimmed bio army and their stupid pop guns don't do any damage except maybe to zerglings (always takes 2 shots from a ghost to kill a ling btw, regardless of upgrades on either side), which they can't micro against because again, they're too slow. If I want a late game cloaking unit, my choice is banshees. A single cloaked banshee can do more damage to an undefended expansion than a nuke can and it costs less money. (banshee = 150, 100 + 200, 200 for cloak. Ghost = 200, 100 + 150, 50 for the academy + 100, 100 for the nuke + 150, 150 for personal cloaking. I don't include the cost of the starport because it's late game and I already have it for medivacs and viking production. Also, in a straight up fight, the banshee survives longer and does more damage)
What's great about cloaked banshees in the late game is how incredibly apm taxing they are to deal with. They fly faster than overseers so even if zerg gets a few mutas or corrupters to shoo them away, the banshee runs out of detection range and it's safe to return to base, recharge some energy, repair and go again. Just a single banshee at an expo can do untold amounts of hurt or force the drones to run away, either way, mission accomplished, but mostly the goal is to tax the zerg's already over extended apm. Good luck keeping up with your injects (a difficult enough thing to do in the mid game, let alone the late game with 8+ hatcheries) when you have to simultaneously fend off 3 banshees in 3 different locations and keep tabs on the main terran army. There isn't a pro zerg yet who can do it, it's unlikely that you're going to hit anyone on the ladder between diamond and masters who can manage it.
while both of those things are true, its important to note that the ghost nerf actually buffed snipes vs infestors, making it take 2 instead of 3 becuase of the armored bonus. So now instead of emping infestors people just snipe them.
Actually, snipe ignores armor (which is why it was so good vs ultras and broodlords previously) so it is still 2 snipes to kill an infestor. EMP is still really good vs infestor. The problem is the range. Most zergs will have their broodlords slightly in front to protect the infestors. Pre-nerf, terrans would snipe down the BLs out of range of the infestors. That was why it was so hard for zergs. Ghosts would snipe BLs from 10 range and they couldn't really close in to kill the ghosts because tanks and marines would be sitting behind them. Now, ghosts are not as effective when sniping so you need vikings to deal with them (marines get fungal'ed if they try to run under). So ghosts are left with EMP but since broodlords are in front, every hard to get in range of infestors.
I feel that when zerg goes infestor/ling...as a Z player i start putting spores up 3-4 at common corners of my base where terran will most likely drop. Spores are extremly strong and kill most medevacs before they get 3 marines out. Its just how i deal with it. The new meta-game of Z is we need to start using more of our static D..sunkens and spores etc...
On March 28 2012 16:45 vthree wrote: Actually, snipe ignores armor (which is why it was so good vs ultras and broodlords previously) so it is still 2 snipes to kill an infestor.
It took 3 because the infestor would regen HP between two snipes landing. The Infestor would go from 90 to 45 to 46 instantly, and the 2nd snipe left the infestor at 1hp.
On March 28 2012 16:45 vthree wrote: Actually, snipe ignores armor (which is why it was so good vs ultras and broodlords previously) so it is still 2 snipes to kill an infestor.
It took 3 because the infestor would regen HP between two snipes landing. The Infestor would go from 90 to 45 to 46 instantly, and the 2nd snipe left the infestor at 1hp.
Yeah, I think this is correct.
I still think ghosts are a viable late game tech choice vs infestor brood, you just have to be good at controlling them. I lost to a Terran yesterday on taldarim where I contained him to 2 bases for like 15 minutes and I thought I was so incredibly far ahead, but then he went allin with his 3/3 marine tank medi ghost army, and used 2 medis to drop his ghosts behind my army so when I kept my infestors to the back (I knew he had ghosts), they all got hit with one EMP and I lost all my broods to the snipes and marines since i had no fungals.
This whole trend of "ghosts are fcking useless zvt" is really overblown, just like the corresponding zerg trend of "mutas are fcking useless". Both units are still viable: in the case of mutas I think it's a maps thing at this point in time, there are a lot of maps where mutas are really bad (read: korhal, cloud kingdom, entombed, maybe antiga?) because of base layouts and map sizes.
When daybreak/metropolis hit the map pool I think you'll see a lot more pros going double spire muta on those maps.
Been trying july's lair aggression play. Not too bad I must say. I think his style will be popular soon, with so many players starting to macro up instead of being aggressive. His style actually is very good for the current meta game
On March 16 2012 09:24 Jermstuddog wrote: This is one of the reasons I got so annoyed with the muta nerf in ZvP.
Mutalisks are a dying unit in SC2
They have already become useless in ZvT, they have failed finding use in ZvZ, and now, they are basically worthless in ZvP.
I made the suggestion before the nerf, and plenty were quick to laugh at the absurdity of my statement, but I am happy to restate the same exact thing.
Mutas were never known for their unrivaled power, otherwise we would see them dominating all match-ups. Rather, the very reason they were so hated by Protoss is the reason why they are bad units in general.
Mutas don't deliver.
While Mutalisks can be good momentarily, in high-level SC2, they do not offer a way to seal a game... More often, by choosing to go muta, the Zerg player is commiting himself to a very weak midgame army and hoping to win through an unchecked mass expansion followup or a bad base trade for his opponent.
Mutalisks should have been buffed, not nerfed. They are quickly losing viability in general, essentially leaving Zerg with the fewest viable units in any matchup. zerglings and roaches are now making up at least 90% of every Zerg army in all matchups and this trend has no signs of slowing down.
Thanks Blizzard for boxing me in to ling/roach in all MUs, that's what makes for interesting games.
First of all, Muta's were never "nerfed".. Where you get this rubbish I have no clue.
Secondly, Muta's are FAR from worthless in ZvP.. That statement is absolutely ridiculous. Going fast 3 base and starting Roaches, and then transitioning to Muta from there after stopping an all-in, or denying their fast third is insanely hard to deal with as Protoss. Even if you can't deny the Protoss third, there is a window of time where they are very vulnerable to Muta harass after taking that third base (because their army is spread so thin over 3 bases, and you can do a ton of damage with Muta harass).
Thirdly, Muta's shouldn't offer a way to "seal" a game. They're a harass unit. And I can even argue that they actually can seal a game for the Zerg player when used on the right maps in both ZvT, and quite easily in ZvP.
There are so many absurd statements in your post that I don't even know where to begin, and I don't even have time to address all of them.
Mutalisks are probably now one of the worst units in the game, with so many factors contributing towards their downfall. The OP already shows how they put Zerg insanely far behind on upgrades and tech because of their gas cost. If you try to double upgrade and tech while getting mutas, you don't have enough mutas to serve their purpose.
Terrans have learnt how to defend their base flawlessly against muta harass. Marines with upgrades and thors make it ridiculously cost inefficient to harass a base, and you're often trading 1-2 mutas for a depot or turret. The main problem is that, despite costing a hideous amount, they cannot fight. They are absolutely atrocious combat units, and that results in only being able to counter or base trade far too often. Severely delaying upgrades and tech for a unit that can't even fight and has a diminishing harass effectiveness is clearly not worth it. Infestors can actually hold attacks, and transition very well into late game. There is NO reason to get mutalisks anymore.
On April 06 2012 02:11 nuMi22 wrote: Mutalisks are probably now one of the worst units in the game, with so many factors contributing towards their downfall. The OP already shows how they put Zerg insanely far behind on upgrades and tech because of their gas cost. If you try to double upgrade and tech while getting mutas, you don't have enough mutas to serve their purpose.
Terrans have learnt how to defend their base flawlessly against muta harass. Marines with upgrades and thors make it ridiculously cost inefficient to harass a base, and you're often trading 1-2 mutas for a depot or turret. The main problem is that, despite costing a hideous amount, they cannot fight. They are absolutely atrocious combat units, and that results in only being able to counter or base trade far too often. Severely delaying upgrades and tech for a unit that can't even fight and has a diminishing harass effectiveness is clearly not worth it. Infestors can actually hold attacks, and transition very well into late game. There is NO reason to get mutalisks anymore.
1. Terran makes an INVESTMENT to defend his base with turrets and/or keep units there. 2. You get full map control and air dominance 3. You can severly punish and/or pressure a greedy or risk-taking terran by abusing your mobility ---- very atrocious, indeed....
Honestly, the only reason I see people abandoning mutas is because it just requires more APM than sitting around in your base with infestor ling while rushing for the zerg death ball. And after Stephanos entry to the scene I think most zergs have realized exactly how powerful the ling infestor mix is when coupled with brood lords or ultralisks.
On April 06 2012 02:11 nuMi22 wrote: Mutalisks are probably now one of the worst units in the game, with so many factors contributing towards their downfall. The OP already shows how they put Zerg insanely far behind on upgrades and tech because of their gas cost. If you try to double upgrade and tech while getting mutas, you don't have enough mutas to serve their purpose.
Terrans have learnt how to defend their base flawlessly against muta harass. Marines with upgrades and thors make it ridiculously cost inefficient to harass a base, and you're often trading 1-2 mutas for a depot or turret. The main problem is that, despite costing a hideous amount, they cannot fight. They are absolutely atrocious combat units, and that results in only being able to counter or base trade far too often. Severely delaying upgrades and tech for a unit that can't even fight and has a diminishing harass effectiveness is clearly not worth it. Infestors can actually hold attacks, and transition very well into late game. There is NO reason to get mutalisks anymore.
1. Terran makes an INVESTMENT to defend his base with turrets and/or keep units there. 2. You get full map control and air dominance 3. You can severly punish and/or pressure a greedy or risk-taking terran by abusing your mobility ---- very atrocious, indeed....
Honestly, the only reason I see people abandoning mutas is because it just requires more APM than sitting around in your base with infestor ling while rushing for the zerg death ball. And after Stephanos entry to the scene I think most zergs have realized exactly how powerful the ling infestor mix is when coupled with brood lords or ultralisks.
Infestor play gives you "muscle" way earlier than mutalisk play, mutalisk play even in good position (you did economy dmg) generally means late game scenario game vs terran, while infestor can actually punish terran at for example 2-2 timing.
On April 06 2012 02:11 nuMi22 wrote: Mutalisks are probably now one of the worst units in the game, with so many factors contributing towards their downfall. The OP already shows how they put Zerg insanely far behind on upgrades and tech because of their gas cost. If you try to double upgrade and tech while getting mutas, you don't have enough mutas to serve their purpose.
Terrans have learnt how to defend their base flawlessly against muta harass. Marines with upgrades and thors make it ridiculously cost inefficient to harass a base, and you're often trading 1-2 mutas for a depot or turret. The main problem is that, despite costing a hideous amount, they cannot fight. They are absolutely atrocious combat units, and that results in only being able to counter or base trade far too often. Severely delaying upgrades and tech for a unit that can't even fight and has a diminishing harass effectiveness is clearly not worth it. Infestors can actually hold attacks, and transition very well into late game. There is NO reason to get mutalisks anymore.
1. Terran makes an INVESTMENT to defend his base with turrets and/or keep units there. 2. You get full map control and air dominance 3. You can severly punish and/or pressure a greedy or risk-taking terran by abusing your mobility ---- very atrocious, indeed....
Honestly, the only reason I see people abandoning mutas is because it just requires more APM than sitting around in your base with infestor ling while rushing for the zerg death ball. And after Stephanos entry to the scene I think most zergs have realized exactly how powerful the ling infestor mix is when coupled with brood lords or ultralisks.
No, it's cuz of the ghost nerf. Right now Terran has no effective answer to Hive. Ghosts did very well vs Zerg hive compositions, and critically, they were integral in fighting both BL / infestor and Ultra / infestor comps (making Terran way less succeptible to tech switches). Obviously that doesn't work now, so while terrans scramble to relearn lategame TvZ and find new ways of dealing with the deathball, Zergs have realized it's entirely possible to defend with ling / infestor while rushing to a hive tech composition with a fairly even economy. You're still playing the midgame, but at the same time ur essentially rushing to the awesome BL or Ultra / infestor composition without having to spend gas on units in between to stay alive (mutas).
This was known a while ago, but it got way more popular now that Terrans are left without a solid answer to Hive. Obviously mutas still work, as evidenced by the fact that they see plenty of use in professional play. To say otherwise is just stupid and a knee jerk reaction. Obviously there are reasons mutas suck, but there are also reasons mutas are great. Infestors have their pros and cons too. It's just the patch led to a new way to ZvT (or gave more viability to an old way i guess), so obviously mutas aren't seen as much. It's a new style, it hasn't been analyzed as much, and I'm sure Terran has several potential options they need to explore before we can say infestors >>> mutas.
Why are people saying muta's are a dying unit? I see IMLosira and oGsJookto using them fairly often. Just because you don't know how to utilize muta's doesn't mean you should jump to insane conclusions. -__-
On April 06 2012 08:43 JTouche wrote: Why are people saying muta's are a dying unit? I see IMLosira and oGsJookto using them fairly often. Just because you don't know how to utilize muta's doesn't mean you should jump to insane conclusions. -__-
Just something I've noticed, but koreans seem to be always behind on the metagame. For example in ZvP, they were using roach hydra corrupter months after people developed away from that.
I think the reason people are going to infestors is because of the shitty maps like antiga. There is no airspace for mutas to harass, the lack of counter-attack routes to cut off reinforcements or threaten base trades that are the only reason ling/bane/muta works in ZvT and forces T to stay in his base instead of push and win every game at higher level play, and the bases are super close, so T always takes a greedy fast third that they normally couldn't take, and Z can't do anything about the third like they normally can with ling/bane/muta, so Z deals with this fast third play by just going fast hive and teching quickly, and it also makes defending drops and pressure easier because the bases are closer so infestors can get around to deal with drops easier. You don't need mutas on certain maps to deal with drops because of how close the bases are.
it's not that mutas are outdated or bad, it's that on certain maps, infestors are actually viable - usually maps that are very T favored, that muta play can't really work on.
Just something I've noticed, but koreans seem to be always behind on the metagame. For example in ZvP, they were using roach hydra corrupter months after people developed away from that.
I don't think so... They are usually way ahead in the metagame. They tend to play a much more aggressive style, so in lower pro levels, you use infestors (destiny comes to mind), but at the code s ++++ level, if you go infestors, you just die to such tight timings, because everyone has such great micro, as well as better game knowledge, and know when they can move out and pressure 'safely'. They are just more active with their units, even if they don't attack, they are always moving them around to their full extent.
That said, I think a lot of people would say that pros like nestea or losira, who were the best of the best a few months ago, are now outdated and no longer relevant. Now, it's DRG, or stephano, that is forging the game. Not my words, totally not my words. Just repeating something I've heard GMs say, that people still think that nestea or whomever was top of the pack a few months ago, is still the best.