|
I've been watching casts on sc2casts.com for awhile and I noticed a lot of high level zergs either get behind or lose their advantage due to the pure dps of terran drops. Wouldn't a couple spine crawlers at each expo help this?
The advantages of spines at expos are: - More time to react so your hatch doesn't get sniped. - More mining time. Hatch takes 100 game time seconds to build. At full saturation, this is 800 minerals per minute, aka a max loss of ~1333 minerals in lost mining time. Add in another 350 for the hatch, and you have 1683 in lost minerals just for losing a hatch, NOT including sniped drones. - Keep a higher effectiveness of army [versus pulling 12-16 lings to deal with a drop]. Only applicable sometimes, if they misposition a drop. Also in the event they misposition a drop, you save precious APM. Disadvantages/Risks - Wasted minerals. If they don't drop, you have basically burned 600 minerals per base, wasted minerals could have gone toward army size.
Given that Terran almost always drops in the current meta, isn't it a safe choice to say that Zergs should be building more spines?
Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.
|
you forgot to add that each spine is a drone lost as well
and players like stephano do put spines at each base late game and you can not drop them
|
Given the versatility of drops, it can be very difficult to position Spines so that Marauders can't pick off one quickly and subsequently allow the rest of the drop to shoot at the hatch without getting hurt. Spines are great for creating a wall for ground forces to contend with, but when you have a circular hatch that can be shot from all sides by units from a flying drop-ship, it's sometimes better to take the risk of responding too late than to build 10 spines at a 4th base.
I think that's why, but that's coming from a Terran player; perhaps a Zerg can voice in here?
|
On March 20 2012 04:24 Grampz wrote: you forgot to add that each spine is a drone lost as well
and players like stephano do put spines at each base late game and you can not drop them
It's been a week or so since I played, aren't spines 100 and drones 50? I may just spam spines during my games.
|
On March 20 2012 04:25 Seppuku wrote: Given the versatility of drops, it can be very difficult to position Spines so that Marauders can't pick off one quickly and subsequently allow the rest of the drop to shoot at the hatch without getting hurt. Spines are great for creating a wall for ground forces to contend with, but when you have a circular hatch that can be shot from all sides by units from a flying drop-ship, it's sometimes better to take the risk of responding too late than to build 10 spines at a 4th base.
I think that's why, but that's coming from a Terran player; perhaps a Zerg can voice in here?
Thanks for responding! Appreciate the input.
If you have 1 spine added, that is +300hp effectively (600 hp if they're trying to snipe two!) that they have to go through before they hit the hatch, giving the zerg a higher chance of responding to the drop. Also you reduce the effectiveness of the drop if you happen to kill any units with the spines. That's my logic anyways, could definitely be flawed.
|
On March 20 2012 04:26 illuminos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:24 Grampz wrote: you forgot to add that each spine is a drone lost as well
and players like stephano do put spines at each base late game and you can not drop them It's been a week or so since I played, aren't spines 100 and drones 50? I may just spam spines during my games. He means that you need to use a drone to create a spine. One or two may not seem like much, but when you drop from 70 to 55 drones because you made like 15 spines, it can become a big deal. Also, Terrans don't just drop behind your mineral line, but also all around your base sniping whatever tech structures are available. You would have to make so many spines to cover every mining base and all the buildings, etc. And even then, i would just go ovie hunting, or i would drop tanks.
|
On March 20 2012 04:30 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:26 illuminos wrote:On March 20 2012 04:24 Grampz wrote: you forgot to add that each spine is a drone lost as well
and players like stephano do put spines at each base late game and you can not drop them It's been a week or so since I played, aren't spines 100 and drones 50? I may just spam spines during my games. He means that you need to use a drone to create a spine. One or two may not seem like much, but when you drop from 70 to 55 drones because you made like 15 spines, it can become a big deal. Also, Terrans don't just drop behind your mineral line, but also all around your base sniping whatever tech structures are available. You would have to make so many spines to cover every mining base and all the buildings, etc. And even then, i would just go ovie hunting, or i would drop tanks.
Usually when I plan to make spines, I oversaturate before planting them.
WRT tech: that's true, but imo losing 25-50% of your econ because a hatch went down is much more damaging than losing a tech structure. Usually they have enough dps to maybe put down one tech structure.
|
What I think this comes down to is that some pros are so map aware or at least rely on it being map aware during important games that they don't need the spines. Keep in mind, everything you do in SC2 should be solving a problem or helping you win, if someone needs the extra $$$ or is relying on their map awareness then they don't have a problem that needs to be solved so no spines.
|
On March 20 2012 04:34 sm0b wrote: What I think this comes down to is that some pros are so map aware or at least rely on it being map aware during important games that they don't need the spines. Keep in mind, everything you do in SC2 should be solving a problem or helping you win, if someone needs the extra $$$ or is relying on their map awareness then they don't have a problem that needs to be solved so no spines.
Hmm, that's true. This may just be an issue with certain pros taking certain risks about being able to respond in time / perhaps being overconfident in their game sense then.
|
The thing about spines is... They're just not THAT good.
Building 2 spines is 300 minerals and will not hold off a drop without extra support.
Building an aditional hatch is 350 minerals and provides benefit immediately.
In all, while spines can be nice for delaying a drop from killing a base, you are risking double the minerals for the ability to buy yourself a few extra seconds.
If 2 spines could hold off a Terran drop, they might be a go-to thing, but in their current state, they're generally just too ineffective to be worth it.
|
On March 20 2012 04:40 Jermstuddog wrote: The thing about spines is... They're just not THAT good.
Building 2 spines is 300 minerals and will not hold off a drop without extra support.
Building an aditional hatch is 350 minerals and provides benefit immediately.
In all, while spines can be nice for delaying a drop from killing a base, you are risking double the minerals for the ability to buy yourself a few extra seconds.
If 2 spines could hold off a Terran drop, they might be a go-to thing, but in their current state, they're generally just too ineffective to be worth it.
While spines really arent that great against drops, 2 that are in range of the most often dropped spot at an expansion will definitely get in some kills, and delay long enough for zerglings to get there. 1-2 spines definitely holds on for more than just a few seconds, assuming its a one medivac drop.
I'm a terran who drops all game long, and usually the spines force you to pay much more attention to the drops and try to find spots that aren't guarded by spines. dropping and taking a spine down to half health before lifting isn't much damage, whereas slowly poking down a hatchery is.
Also, i think most drops take out more than just 2 drones each. While its possible for a Terran to just ignore the spine and go for the drones, at the least you'll be dealing a lot of damage to his units if he just takes the spine crawler hits.
|
I know that MVP puts up a lot of spines late game when he smurfs as zerg (and he's very good with zerg). Something like 6 spines per base since it stops drops and makes drops, which are terrans best weapon again late game zerg, almost useless. Sure it's a lot of money but one of the best terrans in the world thinks it's worth it.
|
@Jermstuddog I think you're missing the point of spine crawlers. They're there to delay the drop from killing the hatch, not to prevent it. If you have 2 spine crawlers at a base then that should give you enough time to bring lings over before they kill the hatch.
I also think that lower level players, and with that I mean pretty much under diamond players, should not worry too much about making spines. Pros don't do it because they have great map awareness and generally static defenses are are just horrible. For people that either don't have great map awareness, or don't have perfect macro (in zerg's case that's generally gas-starved and mineral heavy) I don't think placing a few spines is too bad a decision. Low level opponents won't be playing perfectly either, it's not the game of min-maxing like it is in top level play, but losing a hatch can be devastating.
|
On March 20 2012 04:40 Jermstuddog wrote: The thing about spines is... They're just not THAT good.
Building 2 spines is 300 minerals and will not hold off a drop without extra support.
Building an aditional hatch is 350 minerals and provides benefit immediately.
In all, while spines can be nice for delaying a drop from killing a base, you are risking double the minerals for the ability to buy yourself a few extra seconds.
If 2 spines could hold off a Terran drop, they might be a go-to thing, but in their current state, they're generally just too ineffective to be worth it.
Serious question, what if you put up 8 spines? cost = 1200, net +470 minerals if you're certain they will try to drop your base (including lost mining time)
|
On March 20 2012 04:48 Chromodoris wrote: I know that MVP puts up a lot of spines late game when he smurfs as zerg (and he's very good with zerg). Something like 6 spines per base since it stops drops and makes drops, which are terrans best weapon again late game zerg, almost useless. Sure it's a lot of money but one of the best terrans in the world thinks it's worth it.
Hm, I may need to watch higher level matches, haha. So far most of the stuff I watch is from sc2casts.
|
No matter how many spines you put, 8 or 16 stimed/healed marines will tear them in seconds.
The medevac is the most dangerous and valuable in a drop. So I usually put 2 spines and 2 well placed spore so that if he drops, he will lose the medevac and it's well enough to discourage the drop, force him to drop in a remote location that will deal less damage or will be forced to engage the spines without medevac's support.
Note that I do that in a later game where I am usually floating on 4k minerals and there is nothing to spend it on. And again, it depends on the map and base's size.
|
On March 20 2012 04:19 illuminos wrote: I've been watching casts on sc2casts.com for awhile and I noticed a lot of high level zergs either get behind or lose their advantage due to the pure dps of terran drops. Wouldn't a couple spine crawlers at each expo help this?
The advantages of spines at expos are: Disadvantages/Risks - Wasted minerals. If they don't drop, you have basically burned 600 minerals per base, wasted minerals could have gone toward army size.
Given that Terran almost always drops in the current meta, isn't it a safe choice to say that Zergs should be building more spines?
Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.
Should add ->> spine = drone = larva It´s not the Minerals that are the problem in my eyes when it comes to the mid early game though lategame is another story but then there are units on the field with upgrades that make spines burst in seconds but they are good to delay drops etc to get your troops to the hatches
|
On March 20 2012 04:50 illuminos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:40 Jermstuddog wrote: The thing about spines is... They're just not THAT good.
Building 2 spines is 300 minerals and will not hold off a drop without extra support.
Building an aditional hatch is 350 minerals and provides benefit immediately.
In all, while spines can be nice for delaying a drop from killing a base, you are risking double the minerals for the ability to buy yourself a few extra seconds.
If 2 spines could hold off a Terran drop, they might be a go-to thing, but in their current state, they're generally just too ineffective to be worth it. Serious question, what if you put up 8 spines? cost = 1200, net +470 minerals if you're certain they will try to drop your base (including lost mining time)
If you're CERTAIN they're gonna drop there, you can bring 10 lings there to kill marines the moment they unload and that's not gonna cost you anything cause you're gonna have lings anyway. Spine crawlers are just there for delaying a potential drop so that you can react with army. You should never have enough static defenses to deal with a good drop/raid before the very late game where you start reaching 2k+ minerals. It would make your army/economy terrible.
|
On March 20 2012 04:55 frietjeman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:50 illuminos wrote:On March 20 2012 04:40 Jermstuddog wrote: The thing about spines is... They're just not THAT good.
Building 2 spines is 300 minerals and will not hold off a drop without extra support.
Building an aditional hatch is 350 minerals and provides benefit immediately.
In all, while spines can be nice for delaying a drop from killing a base, you are risking double the minerals for the ability to buy yourself a few extra seconds.
If 2 spines could hold off a Terran drop, they might be a go-to thing, but in their current state, they're generally just too ineffective to be worth it. Serious question, what if you put up 8 spines? cost = 1200, net +470 minerals if you're certain they will try to drop your base (including lost mining time) If you're CERTAIN they're gonna drop there, you can bring 10 lings there to kill marines the moment they unload and that's not gonna cost you anything cause you're gonna have lings anyway. Spine crawlers are just there for delaying a potential drop so that you can react with army. You should never have enough static defenses to deal with a good drop/raid before the very late game where you start reaching 2k+ minerals. It would make your army/economy terrible.
True, this is way more cost efficient.
|
I would say if you have 3 or less bases you should not have spines if possible.
Once you get 4+ and you start transitioning into BLs (or ultras) and your army becomes immobile and you float tons of minerals, I don't see the harm in plopping down tons of spines.
|
Yeah, it is very frustrating having 3 spines in your main to be dropped just a little bit by the side and either losing all tech buildings instead of the drones, or having the spines sniped one by one. If they where like cannons that also hit air it would be different .
Besides, it just gets worse with upgrades. At first you can defend with spines, but once the marines being dropped are 2-2 or more then it is almost worthless.
The hairy thing is that the typical units you will use to defend drops are the fastest ones that suffer a lot from being used below critical mass, so you need to accumulate them close to the enemy units and only then engage.
So the only really good solution is DON'T LET THEM DROP. Which means great overlord spread, and having lings in the most common drop paths.
It gets really shitty when they drop twise at the same time and also push forward with their main army. You have to quickly think how many and how of the three fights you will pick :S
|
Mid-Masters Z here.
I've seen both methods of drop prevention (Groups of lings vs Spines) used by pro players to some effectiveness. For example, Vibe almost always leaves 2 groups of 10 lings at each front to prevent drops from sniping vulnerable hatcheries. This is an entirely viable way of dealing with drops, provided we're not talking about a situation where the Terran can drop outside of the base, then go in with 8 marines and a medivac. In that situation, those 10 lings aren't going to do anything, and won't buy you as much time as a spinecrawler (although they might be able to take down more marines). Some maps where this is in play: Antiga Shipyard, Tal'darim, ESV Cloud Kingdom, ect.
Personally, I don't think Cost Effectiveness in this situation is even an issue. By the time Zerg is moving into Tier 3, and expanding all around the map in ZvT, minerals should be at over 1000 and you should be going for those geysers. It's perfectly acceptable to trade 750 minerals per base (5 spines) in order to ensure that the vital gas income is protected. By this time, you should have enough macro hatcheries that the extra drone larva won't affect you substantially, and those 5 spines will basically ensure that the Terran not only has to drop away from the hatchery and geysers, but that they have to kill 1-3 spines in order to get shots off at the hatchery. By the time that this happens, you'll fully be able to react with enough zerglings to deal with the problem.
One other problem with the 10-20 ling strategy that I find relevant is the fact that in a late-game scenario, especially while using Ultra-Ling, that's 10 supply that's entirely out of your army at the time of the engagement. While 20 Lings might seem entirely negligible in a late-game scenario, you have to consider that 20 3-3 cracklings can easily turn the tide of the battle if it's close. In contrast, Spines cost no supply, and only highly expendable minerals, which make them a better alternative in my opinion.
As for why people don't do it more often, I feel as though it might be an APM issue. While building an army, upgrading, setting up hatcheries, responding to Terran pushes, ensuring you take the valuable geysers, it's very easy to simply forget to put them down. Personally, I always send drones to the geysers, then make any remaining ones into spine crawlers (up to 5).
|
Advantage: Costs no suppy, free damage lategame.
|
also, you can just put lings on patrol, spread your ovies, and scout the drop way before it even gets there... spines are just a bonus unless you can't spread your ovies
|
On March 20 2012 04:40 Jermstuddog wrote: The thing about spines is... They're just not THAT good.
Building 2 spines is 300 minerals and will not hold off a drop without extra support.
Building an aditional hatch is 350 minerals and provides benefit immediately.
In all, while spines can be nice for delaying a drop from killing a base, you are risking double the minerals for the ability to buy yourself a few extra seconds.
If 2 spines could hold off a Terran drop, they might be a go-to thing, but in their current state, they're generally just too ineffective to be worth it.
This isn't really true...
Say you don't build spines, and they kill your hatchery. Your lings get there and chase them off. You rebuild your hatchery immediately... but you now have 100 in-game seconds where you're no longer mining from that base. If that base was saturated, you're literally looking at 16 drones * ~40 minerals/minute * 1.66 minutes = 1062.4 minerals that you missed, not to mention the ~300 gas that you're also not getting.
Instead, you build 2 spines, lets say they kill them, but your lings get there soon enough to save the hatch (for the sake of the argument, lets assume that without the spines, your hatch would have fallen, as in it has ~600 health left).
You now can continue mining... in 100 seconds you have more than made those spines worth it.
How long does a marine drop take to kill those 2 spines? Let's assume the marines stim and have +2 attack, and let's assume the spines get 0 kills (unlikely). Marines with +2 attack vs the 2 armor of the spine will do 6 damage per attack. With the natural regeneration of zerg buildings, it takes 51 marine shots per spine... or 102 for both. 8 stimmed marines attack with a cooldown of .8608.
So... you're buying yourself around 10 extra seconds.. probably more, as the spines will get 1-3 kills.
10-20 seconds is plenty of time to react and get lings from across the map over there. There's also the added benefit that marines won't automatically start mowing down drones... they'll attack the spines first.
I would say that for a 3rd or 4th base, 3 spines (ideally clustered so that all 3 can attack marines at the same time) is probably ideal for making sure that bases can stay intact. I even like to place a spore so that the medivac takes damage if they're not careful. Regardless, it's worth keeping your hatch alive, and if you can't have 100% perfect minimap awareness and reaction time, you should do it.
|
Problem is if he's dropping with 8 marines that have stim and he can engage the spines one at a time, marines can burn them down easy. Also spines = less drones = less economy = less overall army which is further compounded by the fact that if he attacks your front and you have six useless spines sitting in your main, GG. They definitely have a place but it's by no means a no-brainer else pros would be doing it more (in theory).
|
Does no one consider cutting zerglings to build spinecrawlers as an alternative to pulling drones from mining to build them.
They cost the same as 6 lings each and are more likely to make a Terran hesitate to attack a base/choke than small groups of lings are. When you're dumping all your excess minerals into zerglings you're not going to really miss a few for the comfort of knowing you've got a buffer at your expos.
|
if they dont drop you are in a very good position
they dont even have to losea any marines to the spines and it is still competely worth it if you dont lose hatches and even more improtantly (imo) drones
but of course you shouldnt do this before you are around 180 or so supply and have a bank of over 1k
|
I think one of the best ways to use spines is to discourage cute marine positioning in and around mineral lines. If you get a queen on the medivac, a handful of zerglings and a spine can handle marines better than pure spine or pure ling. Pure spine fails against well-positioned marines who either dodge the spines completely and snipe the hatch, or stim and focus the spines down individually. Pure ling can fail when marines find a spot with minimal surface area and just park there.
|
I don't think spines are very effective at protecting a hatchery against drops. The MMM can come in from so many different angles, and the spine as the same range as the marauder. You'd need a ton of spines to protect the hatch from all angles. One spine on the back side of the mineral line can be good to protect against the marines tucking themselves into the minerals and preventing the lings from getting surface area.
I think a more interesting use of spines in lategame ZvT is a spine forest midmap, like NesTea occasionally makes. Those spines only cost minerals, big who cares, and they are quite effective at delaying any big push the terran tries to make. If zerg is banking 3k minerals, I think it's quite a sensible investment to make 10-15 spines and put them out in the map center on maps like Daybreak, where there is a clear central area that restricts enemy movement.
|
On March 20 2012 10:03 Agenda42 wrote: I don't think spines are very effective at protecting a hatchery against drops. The MMM can come in from so many different angles, and the spine as the same range as the marauder. You'd need a ton of spines to protect the hatch from all angles. One spine on the back side of the mineral line can be good to protect against the marines tucking themselves into the minerals and preventing the lings from getting surface area. .
First... Marauders have 6 range, spines have 7. Marines have 5.
Honestly, marines attacking from the mineral lines are the main problem. You need to send WAY too many lings to stop a marine drop behind the mineral lines. This, IMO, is the main purpose of the drop.
I think it's a good idea to have 2 spines together placed right next to the hatchery in the mineral line. The main purpose is to discourage behind-the-mineral drops and stop them from auto-mowing down drones. A 1-medivac drop in the open area in front of the hatchery is easily shut down by 20 or so lings, or with a few banelings.
I think it would also be worth it to keep 2 banelings at each base... maybe even burrowed behind the mineral line. If they drop right onto them, blow them up for easy anti-drop. If they are in front, unburrow them when you get some lings there to easily clean up the drop.
|
I also don't understand why spines mid/lategame are so underused ZvT, it's just great to use as a zerg in the mid/late-game (especially late game), spines are very good at preventing damage, it's less that spines kill the drops but they prevent lots of damage, they pretty much stop 1 medivac drops when you have like 2+. and secondly they don't cost supply which makes it even better, one of the most known players using this is Stephano and does it with great success, so to all you zergs out there, get them spines mid and especially late game since usually the zerg will have a pretty good bank in the first place so in lategame it'll become a non-issue mineral wise.
|
On March 20 2012 04:34 sm0b wrote: What I think this comes down to is that some pros are so map aware or at least rely on it being map aware during important games that they don't need the spines. Keep in mind, everything you do in SC2 should be solving a problem or helping you win, if someone needs the extra $$$ or is relying on their map awareness then they don't have a problem that needs to be solved so no spines.
Maybe true in some cases, but Stephano is the perfect counterexample to your point that pros rely on map awareness, not spines, to stop dropes. He's one of the most map aware players I can think of, but still reflexively drops spines and spores on his expos.
|
why are we assuming that pros dont use spines in zvt? once they max out on hive tech, almost everybody throws down 10-30 spines to delay pushes and free up supply.
the thing is, cost doesn't matter when you have 5k banked, and drones don't matter when you have 100 of them. they stop drops, give cover to broods, and can even be used offensively if you have baller creep spread. i personally always put spines on my third and main because they serve the same functions as turrets do in ZVT: they buy time for your overwhelming army to get there before taking any major damage
|
I like the spines idea, though I seem to forget them a lot. The minerals aren't an issue and there's no harm in using spines AND lings to defend as a mixture. The hatchery lost late game isn't so much a factor of mineral income lost (though it will become important after big fights) but more the gas income whilst teching/making your big important units.
I'd also like to add that placing one spore at the most vulnerable bases (or ones along common drop paths) can be extremely helpful as most terrans don't have the multitask to babysit every drop whilst doing everything else (not a bash it's legitimately hard to do) and so can often shift-queue a medivac fully loaded over a spore and lose it for free.
|
I think it's totally worth it to drop some static D at your 3rd/4th to keep the marines from getting behind the mineral line. Most Terrans on ladder will just auto-drop behind the line making it really hard for Zerglings to get a surround. 1 spore behind the line + 2 spines gaurding the most likely angle of attack will buy you the time you need to kill the drop without losing the hatch and all those minerals/gas/ and LARVA.
Totally a worth-while investment.
|
it's something that is underdone right now and will become standard as time goes on for sure. the switch to only playing infestor based midgame into hive tech is relatively recent so of course a lot of things haven't been figured out yet. i think even as much as 5 or more spines in every base will become the norm. also spores in a few key locations are really underused i think. think entombed valley where there is practically no air space to maneuver around the main. even keeping him from just being able to shift click on the minimap a few times and then forget about it is totally worth the minerals i think.
|
Early game, they're necessary if you're going muta to keep yourself alive from front attacks.
Midgame, when Terran is MULEing like a boss, you want all the drones you can to keep the economic advantage that Zerg SHOULD have over Terran.
Lategame spines are outranged by tanks and die too easily to 3/3 bio stim with a medivac (as in a drop), so they don't really do anything.
I guess that's why. Same reason I don't drop a bunch of cannons - I don't wanna spend a load of money on something that is ultimately ineffective. I usually only use cannons for detection in mid to late game (in case they send a cloaked banshee in or something).
|
The question isn't whether zerg should build 30 spines in the lategame. Lategame zerg is very gas-heavy and you're already supply capped. A spine crawler that doesn't cost any supply and doesn't cost any gas might as well be free - which is exactly why pro players build 30 spines/spores in the lategame.
Building spines in the early/midgame is more of a tradeoff. Spending minerals and larva for a defense that doesn't actually kill off drops (it just delays them by 10-20sec) is not as good as having the map awareness to intercept the drop IMO, but for less skilled players is probably still worth it.
|
If I'm playing heavy ling infestor then I get 1 spore and 1 spine at the back of each base to stop drops. At my level (Plat), most terrans will actually lose their medivac to the spore crawler so I just have to pull a few lings back to clean up. Also, if I get banelings, I sometimes burrow 1 or two of them in the back of each expo in case of a drop.
|
I remenber that idra always put a spine at his natural and stephano too!
And talking about me, since in some stage of the game i am over producing minerals, i always put some in my bases :D
|
On March 21 2012 22:25 Maggost wrote: I remenber that idra always put a spine at his natural and stephano too!
And talking about me, since in some stage of the game i am over producing minerals, i always put some in my bases :D Pretty much any good zerg does that, it's to stop hellions, it's not relevant to the topic at hand.
|
it's because you only need to get it when you need it. For the most games, you could just leave some lings behind along with queen to defend drops and it will hold up to a certain degree but if you are transitioning from infestor ling into broodlords, then you need to spines because your army is immobile, suddenly you can't deal with drops so efficiently anymore and you need spines to slow down these drops.
|
In the high level grandmaster/pro level games that I play, 90% of the time zergs put spines @ expos when they tech to broodlords or ultras. It's quite common at least from what I see :O
|
Spines become really important in the lategame in ZvT, especially if you're on BL infestor. It isn't just the delaying factor; it's the fact that if you have multiple spines (like 6) + an infestor at each base, you're pretty much drop-proof, even against 3/3 marines (which allows you to commit your supply to army) unless they commit with like 2 or more medivacs.
But they're only really important at that point, when you're maxed and have for more minerals than you could ever need. When you aren't, it's far better to spend your minerals on more army and more hatches; provided you can adequately take care of the drops. Drops in the midgame are far easier to deal with because you can pretty much overrun them with either lings/blings or maybe the odd infestor, as you're typically ahead on upgrades. It's only when the Terran reaches those crazy upgrades that lings just don't cut it anymore and are basically a waste of supply.
Which isn't to say that you shouldn't plant 1 spine at every expansion in the mineral line to stop marine chokes, and maybe 2 or 3 or at your third/4th, but making any more than that's just a lot of dead money that you really want in your army at that point.
|
I´ve learned from IdrA´s stream that you need to put 1 spore at the end of your base, where the drop is comming from and then spines at the mineral line, that will not only give you time, but most likely kill the medivac.
|
On March 21 2012 23:39 TheEggMan wrote: I´ve learned from IdrA´s stream that you need to put 1 spore at the end of your base, where the drop is comming from and then spines at the mineral line, that will not only give you time, but most likely kill the medivac.
You can never predict where a drop will come from, you can try to predict the most likely route but to be honest most good terrans will lose at most one medivac to spores during a game if even that.
I personally prefer to stick 3 crawlers in the mineral line of my expansions when the game enters the stage where i can afford that/cant efficiently defend expoes with units only, that prevents the terran from dropping behind my drones right away and having access to chokes created by minerals when i bring lings to defend.
He either has to target the hatch from a safe place, meaning i should be able to kill the marines if im quick enough, or he has to target down the spines from the sides to access my drones in which case i should also be able to reach him before i suffer any considerable losses.
|
Once I hit 4+ bases I start to spine up my outlying expansions. At that point in the game I'm often floating minerals/larva anyway. After I'm on BL/infestor with fewer lings left it's very difficult to be able to react quickly enough to save the hatch. In my opinion 5 or 6 with a spore crawler or two to hopefully take down the medevac is worth it.
|
Early game you dont need them. You rely on your overlord spread and map awareness. Late game or mid game if they start sniping them off with vikings, you should plant 1~2 spine to buy time.
300minerals is well worth the cost if it prevents your drones/hatch from dieng. Yeah hatch cost 300 but the mining time you lost from it is the thing that hurts. And you have time to run your drone if you have spine.
Plus by that time, you should be well saturated so it wont hurt to drop few spine. Yeah the larva could have been a roach or muta or w.e but again i doubt your macro is so good you dont have any larva left at that time.
|
Yup, I'd say only neccesary when on BL/Infestor with floating mins. Otherwise 4 banelings/a couple lings when on 3 bases or so will do
|
You can never predict where a drop will come from, you can try to predict the most likely route but to be honest most good terrans will lose at most one medivac to spores during a game if even that.
The point of the spore isn't to do direct damage to the dropping medivac, but to rather do indirect damage to the drop attack by preventing the medivac from taking the most direct route and buy you time. Remember, any delay to an attack weakens it as it is more time for you to prepare, and also more time for your units to pop.
If you can place a spore at any one of the direct routes the medivac could come in from, you've zoned that area out and can keep yours lings or spines in another possible direct drop route. It's not about completely shutting out drops. It's about getting every little advantage you can find.
|
The Terran player can drop on any side of the hatchery, and can easily destroy one, maybe two spines. Having ~12 spines to protect each base is a little silly.
Also, most Zerg armies mid-game consist of a large Zergling ball, which gets vaporized in any engagement. The larva cost to replace Zerglings constantly really makes it difficult to spend larva on excess Drones.
|
|
|
|