I've been doing this build since early last year, posted it on Battlenet forums a while back. I continue to have really good success with the build into Masters. Composition is MARINE/THOR/RAVEN/BANSHEE. Please leave constructive feedback, as I'm always looking for ways to improve! If you have any questions please ask. Cheers!
Thor (non-stop until delay for cloak up) Starport + Tech Lab (Raven asap after 2nd Thor) OC (CC #2) Rax 2nd + reactor Rax 3rd + reactor
MOVE TO NATURAL Start moving OC Collapse bunker Bring 4 workers + army out 2 x Refinery (3) and 1/2 Bunker at natural main Bring 6 more scv's from main to natural Load Bunker with marines 2 x Starport + Tech Lab Tech Lab on 1 Rax Research Cloak Research Combat Shield
Non-stop SCV's Non-stop Banshee's Non-stop Thor's Non-stop Marines (In that priority sequence)
Bring out near max army @ 13-14 minutes to closest xelnaga. Establish..
3rd Base, extra Rax, and Factory/Starport as economy allows.
Hotkey Banshees (cloak, position etc). Hotkey Raven (for PDD). Cloak banshee's and hit his main base probe line, then bring them back to main force and hittem hard. Bring 8 or so scv's to repair, position army according to enemy composition. MAKE SURE TO LAY DOWN PDD's and to target fire Colloss with Banshee's. Do not bunch up and try and keep your Banshee's to the side rear of opponents army.
Zealot heavy - Together Stalker heavy - Together Colossus heavy - Thors front, Marines behind, Banshee taking out Collosus Immortal heavy - Marines/Banshee front, Thors behind HT heavy - Thors front center, Marines side Banshee spread and to side and/or over the opposing army.
Note: If he is doing harass with Phoenix you can expect some air-units, cut some banshee's for vikings (I often add a CR on one of the Starports instead of TL) You can also do this if you know he is Colossus heavy.
Important: The build is a little weak early on. Stash the scouting SCV behind his natural and check regularly to determine if he is FE'ing or putting on early pressure. If he is putting on early pressure, lay down a second barracks. Always make sure you have a minimum of 6 workers on hotkey (auto-repair mode) in order to quickly repair Bunker/Thor. Don't be afraid to bring more SCV's under heavy pressure.Wait until you have 2/3 Thors and more marines before pushing out into your natural
On April 04 2012 09:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have had 100 win% with one base 111 against protos, why should I switch to weaker one?
I used to 1 base 111 pretty consistently, but as you go up through the ranks better protoss will have it beat. That's what led to the evolution of this build.
On April 04 2012 09:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have had 100 win% with one base 111 against protos, why should I switch to weaker one?
I used to 1 base 111 pretty consistently, but as you go up through the ranks better protoss will have it beat. That's what led to the evolution of this build.
Pros still win with this build in tournaments. There is still no really viable option against perfectly executed 111. Hight templars may cause problems but that is just micro issue.
On April 04 2012 09:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have had 100 win% with one base 111 against protos, why should I switch to weaker one?
I used to 1 base 111 pretty consistently, but as you go up through the ranks better protoss will have it beat. That's what led to the evolution of this build.
Pros still win with this build in tournaments. There is still no really viable option against perfectly executed 111. Hight templars may cause problems but that is just micro issue.
Every build, every composition is beatable with proper scouting, composition, counters etc. If the build you are using now works well, have ater. I'm sharing a build that's worked well for me into Masters. Hope that's okay with you!
On April 04 2012 09:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have had 100 win% with one base 111 against protos, why should I switch to weaker one?
I used to 1 base 111 pretty consistently, but as you go up through the ranks better protoss will have it beat. That's what led to the evolution of this build.
Pros still win with this build in tournaments. There is still no really viable option against perfectly executed 111. Hight templars may cause problems but that is just micro issue.
Every build, every composition is beatable with proper scouting, composition, counters etc. If the build you are using now works well, have ater. I'm sharing a build that's worked well for me into Masters. Hope that's okay with you!
But there is no real counter to 111 yet even when scouted, protos loses to it.
On April 04 2012 09:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have had 100 win% with one base 111 against protos, why should I switch to weaker one?
I used to 1 base 111 pretty consistently, but as you go up through the ranks better protoss will have it beat. That's what led to the evolution of this build.
Pros still win with this build in tournaments. There is still no really viable option against perfectly executed 111. Hight templars may cause problems but that is just micro issue.
Every build, every composition is beatable with proper scouting, composition, counters etc. If the build you are using now works well, have ater. I'm sharing a build that's worked well for me into Masters. Hope that's okay with you!
But there is no real counter to 111 yet even when scouted, protos loses to it.
On April 04 2012 09:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have had 100 win% with one base 111 against protos, why should I switch to weaker one?
I used to 1 base 111 pretty consistently, but as you go up through the ranks better protoss will have it beat. That's what led to the evolution of this build.
Pros still win with this build in tournaments. There is still no really viable option against perfectly executed 111. Hight templars may cause problems but that is just micro issue.
Every build, every composition is beatable with proper scouting, composition, counters etc. If the build you are using now works well, have ater. I'm sharing a build that's worked well for me into Masters. Hope that's okay with you!
But there is no real counter to 111 yet even when scouted, protos loses to it.
Losses to 111 are usually caused by execution mistakes, rather than composition ones, the reaction is fairly simple, the execution is just difficult.
Moving on; I've fought this on Ladder before, though the Terran went Reactor FE into 2 port banshee, then he went for the Thor/marine/banshee +1 raven composition. I tried a 2 range colossus 2 base push after holding the banshee harass, but that failed--ultimately he killed my before I could get my third to set in. I have little experience combating this composition, and honestly I have no solid idea about how to combat it; though I'd appreciate if you could fill me in on how to beat this playstyle.
On April 04 2012 09:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have had 100 win% with one base 111 against protos, why should I switch to weaker one?
I used to 1 base 111 pretty consistently, but as you go up through the ranks better protoss will have it beat. That's what led to the evolution of this build.
Pros still win with this build in tournaments. There is still no really viable option against perfectly executed 111. Hight templars may cause problems but that is just micro issue.
Every build, every composition is beatable with proper scouting, composition, counters etc. If the build you are using now works well, have ater. I'm sharing a build that's worked well for me into Masters. Hope that's okay with you!
But there is no real counter to 111 yet even when scouted, protos loses to it.
Ya there is its called good decision making.
No matter how good your decision making is, you are not gonna hold 111 because its overpowered.
Moving on; I've fought this on Ladder before, though the Terran went Reactor FE into 2 port banshee, then he went for the Thor/marine/banshee +1 raven composition. I tried a 2 range colossus 2 base push after holding the banshee harass, but that failed--ultimately he killed my before I could get my third to set in. I have little experience combating this composition, and honestly I have no solid idea about how to combat it; though I'd appreciate if you could fill me in on how to beat this playstyle.
I think the best comp I've faced is probably HT, Archon, Speedlot. Hope that helps!
OT, which upgrades do you get? mech armor? mech attack? air attack?
The only upgrades I get early on are combat shields and banshee cloak. The key to the build is hitting his min lines hard with a massive banshee attack (try to hide scout of banshee prod) and hitting with a near max army when protoss is usually 30-40 supply less, The composition also takes many protoss by suprise, and as long as you micro/position the army well you should have some good success! hammer#218 if you have any more questions. Cheers
On April 04 2012 10:20 CaptainHaz wrote: Commented on this build when you posted it a while ago, still think it's quite weak and the delayed expansion makes it not that effective.
LOL, k thanks. Have you tried it, laddered with it?? Didn't think so. High Masters players are using it successfully and.. oh ya I'm in Masters now too
On April 04 2012 09:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have had 100 win% with one base 111 against protos, why should I switch to weaker one?
I used to 1 base 111 pretty consistently, but as you go up through the ranks better protoss will have it beat. That's what led to the evolution of this build.
Pros still win with this build in tournaments. There is still no really viable option against perfectly executed 111. Hight templars may cause problems but that is just micro issue.
rofl high templars have nothing to do with it. one does not answer with high templars vs a 1 1 1, the best way to beat 1 1 1 in early tech(colossus or some immortals), early expo for lots of units and adding production and cutting probes at the right time or good decision making and auto loses to better play
On April 04 2012 09:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have had 100 win% with one base 111 against protos, why should I switch to weaker one?
I used to 1 base 111 pretty consistently, but as you go up through the ranks better protoss will have it beat. That's what led to the evolution of this build.
Pros still win with this build in tournaments. There is still no really viable option against perfectly executed 111. Hight templars may cause problems but that is just micro issue.
rofl high templars have nothing to do with it and 1 1 1 no one deals with 1 1 1 with high templars, the best way to beat 1 1 1 in early tech(colossus or some immortals) and early expo for lots of units.
as for this 1 1 1 i have no idea why its called a 1 1 1 other than that how does this deal with templars immortals chargelots? immortals and chargelots are great vs any "mech" like composition and templars are great vs anything but amazinggggggggg vs thors banshees and marines
On April 04 2012 10:20 CaptainHaz wrote: Commented on this build when you posted it a while ago, still think it's quite weak and the delayed expansion makes it not that effective.
LOL, k thanks. Have you tried it, laddered with it?? Didn't think so. High Masters players are using it successfully and.. oh ya I'm in Masters now too
I was pointing out what I thought to be a fallacy with the build since it opens like a 1/1/1 but your economy deficiency leaves you vulnerable to what would be a normal 1/1/1 response from the protoss.
If you want I can just play you and show you what I'm referring to, it's not hard to stamp out builds like this since they aren't harassed based and sacrifice economy for a slower weaker army.
On April 04 2012 10:20 CaptainHaz wrote: Commented on this build when you posted it a while ago, still think it's quite weak and the delayed expansion makes it not that effective.
LOL, k thanks. Have you tried it, laddered with it?? Didn't think so. High Masters players are using it successfully and.. oh ya I'm in Masters now too
I was pointing out what I thought to be a fallacy with the build since it opens like a 1/1/1 but your economy deficiency leaves you vulnerable to what would be a normal 1/1/1 response from the protoss.
If you want I can just play you and show you what I'm referring to, it's not hard to stamp out builds like this since they aren't harassed based and sacrifice economy for a slower weaker army.
What's your username, number. And it's clearly easier when you know what I'm doing LOL.
On April 04 2012 10:20 CaptainHaz wrote: Commented on this build when you posted it a while ago, still think it's quite weak and the delayed expansion makes it not that effective.
LOL, k thanks. Have you tried it, laddered with it?? Didn't think so. High Masters players are using it successfully and.. oh ya I'm in Masters now too
I was pointing out what I thought to be a fallacy with the build since it opens like a 1/1/1 but your economy deficiency leaves you vulnerable to what would be a normal 1/1/1 response from the protoss.
If you want I can just play you and show you what I'm referring to, it's not hard to stamp out builds like this since they aren't harassed based and sacrifice economy for a slower weaker army.
What's your username, number. And it's clearly easier when you know what I'm doing LOL.
If it makes you feel any better I will not react to the build until the obs shows up. I'm not just going to blind counter it, I wouldn't need to.
On April 04 2012 10:20 CaptainHaz wrote: Commented on this build when you posted it a while ago, still think it's quite weak and the delayed expansion makes it not that effective.
LOL, k thanks. Have you tried it, laddered with it?? Didn't think so. High Masters players are using it successfully and.. oh ya I'm in Masters now too
I was pointing out what I thought to be a fallacy with the build since it opens like a 1/1/1 but your economy deficiency leaves you vulnerable to what would be a normal 1/1/1 response from the protoss.
If you want I can just play you and show you what I'm referring to, it's not hard to stamp out builds like this since they aren't harassed based and sacrifice economy for a slower weaker army.
What's your username, number. And it's clearly easier when you know what I'm doing LOL.
If it makes you feel any better I will not react to the build until the obs shows up. I'm not just going to blind counter it, I wouldn't need to.
On April 04 2012 10:20 CaptainHaz wrote: Commented on this build when you posted it a while ago, still think it's quite weak and the delayed expansion makes it not that effective.
LOL, k thanks. Have you tried it, laddered with it?? Didn't think so. High Masters players are using it successfully and.. oh ya I'm in Masters now too
I was pointing out what I thought to be a fallacy with the build since it opens like a 1/1/1 but your economy deficiency leaves you vulnerable to what would be a normal 1/1/1 response from the protoss.
If you want I can just play you and show you what I'm referring to, it's not hard to stamp out builds like this since they aren't harassed based and sacrifice economy for a slower weaker army.
What's your username, number. And it's clearly easier when you know what I'm doing LOL.
If it makes you feel any better I will not react to the build until the obs shows up. I'm not just going to blind counter it, I wouldn't need to.
Haz 380
Uhh that's pretty dumb, since regardless of obs or not you already know what I'm doing. I've added ya though so lets get it on!!!
On April 04 2012 09:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have had 100 win% with one base 111 against protos, why should I switch to weaker one?
I used to 1 base 111 pretty consistently, but as you go up through the ranks better protoss will have it beat. That's what led to the evolution of this build.
Pros still win with this build in tournaments. There is still no really viable option against perfectly executed 111. Hight templars may cause problems but that is just micro issue.
rofl high templars have nothing to do with it. one does not answer with high templars vs a 1 1 1, the best way to beat 1 1 1 in early tech(colossus or some immortals), early expo for lots of units and adding production and cutting probes at the right time or good decision making and auto loses to better play
Colossus does not bring victory over 111
Early expand is counterproductive because expo does not really kick in yet when 111 push comes in. The expo also gets shut down pretty fast.
I use all your builds Hammer. I was stuck a very long time in platinum and thanks to you, I'm now top diamond (master next season for sure !).
You made TvZ my best matchup with your reaper drop opening into mass marines 3/3 drops (I have up to 400 apm when the situation is getting hot, so I outmicro and multitask zerg very easily). My win ratio versus Zerg is around 80-90% now.
And you enabled me to forget about bio in TvP, because I find it really too weak and too unforgiving. Relying on EMP / stim / hit & run / drops versus the a-move speedlots and AOE units like archons or colossus really pissed me off. I have excellent results with your Hammer 1-1-1 expand, even if it took a long time to learn to macro hard and hit the 15 min 200/200 timing. Protoss usually barely scout after one or two obs denied with the first raven, and they never understand there are 3 starports pumping banshees. Even if they perfectly understood what I'm doing, I'm usually fine because of the very crisp max-out timing & the huge 14min banshee runby. The only way be killed at that timing with this army is a massive storm & several feedbacks if I really screw my unit control, because this army comp tend to stack easily.
If I can't kill him right away, usually I can double expand, begin upgrades, harass him with rallied banshees everywhere, and transition into Lynna's mech style, with ghosts & BC (thanks to the 3 starports w/ tech lab integrated in your build). It's almost a freewin.
I have a lot of questions from protoss who ask me how to stop this incredibly strong push, because 90% of the time they have no idea. They see the first thor & marines, expect some kind of all in and begin immos, then transition into colossus when they see so many marines, and usually they don't understand early enough there is almost 12 cloacked banshees incoming. In fact the only hard counter is the high templar which can storm & feedback everything, all the gates & robo units melts incredibly fast to this. Finally a terran army that can fight a protoss one straight up without feeling inferior. I have about 75% win ratio if not more against Protoss now.
Thanks Hammer ! Looking forward for your builds in Heart of the swarm ! Oh, and show us a great TvT build, this is my most random matchup despite my solid macro and multitask.
Only got to play one game against Hammer, but I still echo my original concerns.
-Expansion is too slow vs economically aggressive openings from the Protoss. -Immortal busts are hard to stop, the one I did wasn't even too committal. -The army itself is a bit weak early on since you need kind of a deathball of thors and banshees. -Warp prism good unit....
Anyway, just one replay for now vs Hammer, we'll see what other ways there are to play against this.
On April 04 2012 11:03 pimsc2 wrote: I use all your builds Hammer. I was stuck a very long time in platinum and thanks to you, I'm now top diamond (master next season for sure !).
You made TvZ my best matchup with your reaper drop opening into mass marines 3/3 drops (I have up to 400 apm when the situation is getting hot, so I outmicro and multitask zerg very easily). My win ratio versus Zerg is around 80-90% now.
And you enabled me to forget about bio in TvP, because I find it really too weak and too unforgiving. Relying on EMP / stim / hit & run / drops versus the a-move speedlots and AOE units like archons or colossus really pissed me off. I have excellent results with your Hammer 1-1-1 expand, even if it took a long time to learn to macro hard and hit the 15 min 200/200 timing. Protoss usually barely scout after one or two obs denied with the first raven, and they never understand there are 3 starports pumping banshees. Even if they perfectly understood what I'm doing, I'm usually fine because of the very crisp max-out timing & the huge 14min banshee runby. The only way be killed at that timing with this army is a massive storm & several feedbacks if I really screw my unit control, because this army comp tend to stack easily.
If I can't kill him right away, usually I can double expand, begin upgrades, harass him with rallied banshees everywhere, and transition into Lynna's mech style, with ghosts & BC (thanks to the 3 starports w/ tech lab integrated in your build). It's almost a freewin.
I have a lot of questions from protoss who ask me how to stop this incredibly strong push, because 90% of the time they have no idea. They see the first thor & marines, expect some kind of all in and begin immos, then transition into colossus when they see so many marines, and usually they don't understand early enough there is almost 12 cloacked banshees incoming. In fact the only hard counter is the high templar which can storm & feedback everything, all the gates & robo units melts incredibly fast to this. Finally a terran army that can fight a protoss one straight up without feeling inferior. I have about 75% win ratio if not more against Protoss now.
Thanks Hammer ! Looking forward for your builds in Heart of the swarm ! Oh, and show us a great TvT build, this is my most random matchup despite my solid macro and multitask.
Thats awesome man! Thanks for letting me know, its really great to hear some of the builds are helping people in the Terran community. Sounds like they've worked REALLY well for you! Whats your username/number and I'll tell ya about a TvT I've been doing lately. Cheers!
On April 04 2012 09:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have had 100 win% with one base 111 against protos, why should I switch to weaker one?
I used to 1 base 111 pretty consistently, but as you go up through the ranks better protoss will have it beat. That's what led to the evolution of this build.
Pros still win with this build in tournaments. There is still no really viable option against perfectly executed 111. Hight templars may cause problems but that is just micro issue.
rofl high templars have nothing to do with it. one does not answer with high templars vs a 1 1 1, the best way to beat 1 1 1 in early tech(colossus or some immortals), early expo for lots of units and adding production and cutting probes at the right time or good decision making and auto loses to better play
Colossus does not bring victory over 111
Early expand is counterproductive because expo does not really kick in yet when 111 push comes in. The expo also gets shut down pretty fast.
If you check out kcdc's PvT Guide, there is a section of the guide concerning 1-1-1, and although it is meant to follow along with his version of the 1 gate fast expand, the instructions for defending the push should work with any reasonable 1 gate FE, I'll quote the section for you: + Show Spoiler +
Pull your troops back to your natural. Use your 2 unit warp-in at 6:00 to warp 2 stalkers in to defend your mineral line in your main. Remember to actually put the stalkers IN the mineral line because it's going to be really annoying when hellions drop somewhere you don't expect and get free shots while your stalkers walk over. Build pylons at the normal times, but be sure to spread them to spot incoming drops and banshees. Send a probe to monitor T's natural, and chronoboost 2 observers as soon as your robo finishes.
Take your third gas, and continue warping in stalkers and zealots. You want to prioritize stalkers as gas allows until you have about 6 for harass-defense. After ~6 stalkers, you want to favor zealots as they're better for defeating the eventual push. Keep 3 stalkers in each mineral line until the push comes. Get 3 more gates (total of 5) and cut probe production entirely when you reach ~38 workers.
If it's a normal 1-1-1 with tanks, get an immortal after 2 observers and then spend your next 200 gas on a robo support bay. Having a colossus is important for beating late all-ins at 12:30 or later because the marine ball will get too big with too little surface area to beat it consistently with just zealots+guardian shield. If the push leaves earlier, you can just cancel the support bay to get out a couple extra units. Pull some probes off of gas as you'll mostly need zealots from this point on.
If it's a 2-port banshee all-in, get a forge and a stargate. Cannon the crap out of your natural, get some phoenixes, and then get a support bay if he's just chilling outside your natural. If you have enough cannons, he can't push without tanks, and you'll have a colossus by the time he can start sieging your cannons.
Kill whatever push he sends your way and collect your victory.
If it's cloaked banshee into expansion instead of an all-in, do a 2 colossus timing with thermal lance.
Notice how "it's overpowered" or "impossible to defend" are missing from the guide, this is probably because those statements simply aren't true, a 1-1-1 can be defended, it's not some godsend impossible to beat build, otherwise it would be the only build that is used by Terrans, and it's not.
On April 04 2012 11:19 CaptainHaz wrote: Only got to play one game against Hammer, but I still echo my original concerns.
-Expansion is too slow vs economically aggressive openings from the Protoss. -Immortal busts are hard to stop, the one I did wasn't even too committal. -The army itself is a bit weak early on since you need kind of a deathball of thors and banshees. -Warp prism good unit....
Anyway, just one replay for now vs Hammer, we'll see what other ways there are to play against this.
I think the general composition Hammer is trying to go for is a good one. What it needs are two things: - more ravens to counter the phoenix - more ghosts to counter any storm
Seeing as he's going for a deathball style army this shouldn't be too hard to incorporate. There are also some nasty timing pushes with thor/banshee he can use to punish quick thirds. Hammer could have also harassed more that game; particularly if he uses the raven/viking combo to kill obs which would allow the banshees to kill a lot of stuff.
I think there is potential in this, although it certainly isn't unbeatable.
I used to use a simiilar combo all the time up into high masters. I did it with a 1rax expand into 3rax and 1factor 2 starports. Same end composition but probably a bit more units and with a raven. Gets beat by a colossus/phenoix composition but since its a rare style protoss typically don't react quickly enough to save themselves from the push. Typically it either results in crushing victory or a slow painful death by colossus.
I can attest to the success of this build. I use a varation of it but instead of 1-1-1, I go 1Rax FE, for the 4 quick gas into quad port thor/rine (combat + stim,+1 attack), thor, +2 armor banshee/raven push with 200/200, unless I majorly screw up itand they have a large amount of HT storming everything, this combination is difficult to stop. This strategy has been viable since season 2 though.... You dont necessary have to hit at the 200/200 timing window. As a previous poster mentioned, if there's a quick 3rd, you have a very chance to win the game because it punishes greedy toss players, it also punishes any colosseus heavy builds with mass shee's. Only real counter to it is smart blink stalker/chargelot/HT/Archon play, but even then its a chess match. definitely possible to win
On April 04 2012 12:10 statikg wrote: I used to use a simiilar combo all the time up into high masters. I did it with a 1rax expand into 3rax and 1factor 2 starports. Same end composition but probably a bit more units and with a raven. Gets beat by a colossus/phenoix composition but since its a rare style protoss typically don't react quickly enough to save themselves from the push. Typically it either results in crushing victory or a slow painful death by colossus.
You should scout, if you see phoenixes, just pump out a round of vikings, usually does its job since its only priority are air units. It helps to snipe observers making cloakshees more effective. This combination is said to be -allinish but there's transitions to it, including to the one of "Sky-terran" with raven/bc (yamato)/shee composition or because you have the rax, you can just switch back to standard with bio.
In general, I heavily dislike threads which pronounce a high win-ratio (e.g. 80% in this case) since it shows a poor understanding of how the ladder works and also is very misleading to those reading the thread - i.e. people will think the build better than it really is.
The marine/thor/banshee/raven is certainly viable and has featured in some important GSL game. Off the top of my head, I remember Jjakji using it to defeat Puzzle during his GSL 2011 Nov run. For an example of a loss, I think Ryung failed to beat MC using the build in a GSL match but I can't remember which one.
My take on the build is that it's a reasonable one and useful as a surprise weapon - however, I feel that the top korean pros definitely have a handle on beating it, which is why the majority of terrans transition into MMMGV nowdays.
However, this build would certainly work on a Masters level, which is what most players want to aim for anyways. I personally (before I stopped) played a sky-terran variation to much success in the Masters league - but I was under no illusion that it will be successful in the pro-level.
So, it seems that in all of your replays that you've gone for a maxed out (or close to maxed out) push at around the 13-15 minute mark and have just crushed your opponent. Do you have any matches with this build where you have played into the much later stages of the game? How would you prioritize upgrades? (armor/weapons, and air vs. ground). It seems like this really has to be approached as a "mech" build in the later stages as it looks like the Marines are basically fodder when they are incorporated.
This is gimmicky and bad. a templar opening completely stomps this push and scouting wasnt really happening all that much in the vods and your skill level is probs around NA masters or dia somewhere else. Every unit you have is energy based and getting ghosts delays this alot and you cant transition from this all that well since you dont have any upgrades on anything useful when your opponent has set up the counter composition to this... so that makes this an all in... the 1-1-1 all in is still somewhat viable with even more new variations coming from it, but this... style or build i would not recommend to anyone
Really nice build. I remember having a lots of fun after the beta with marineThorBanshee . . . Dunno why i stopped doing this composition
Anyway, your opening is really interesting. But i wanna ask : how do your hold 1 base stuff? You have low marine count and your first thor is here at around 7 min if you rush for it. . . and most 1base allin can hold around 6 min.
You should just 1rax fe and then go factory tech. Of course you will die to any all-in, but if you do a timing push yourself holding cheese is not a priority.
I think it will trick the protoss into thinking you'll go for some pressure, plus you'll have sufficient marines while you tech up. Just an idea, I don't know how effective it is or has it been tried before.
On April 04 2012 19:47 KAmaKAsa wrote: This is gimmicky and bad. a templar opening completely stomps this push and scouting wasnt really happening all that much in the vods and your skill level is probs around NA masters or dia somewhere else. Every unit you have is energy based and getting ghosts delays this alot and you cant transition from this all that well since you dont have any upgrades on anything useful when your opponent has set up the counter composition to this... so that makes this an all in... the 1-1-1 all in is still somewhat viable with even more new variations coming from it, but this... style or build i would not recommend to anyone
Actually this build and composition seem similar to a build BeastyQT revived recently in some of his tournament play. In his game against Parting or Creator (forget) on Calm, he actually gets 5 bases after the game goes 20+ minutes...so allin? He generally gets mech upgrades and + attack for bio units so the composition scales very well, and it's quite easy to transition into a macro game as your push will very often prove cost efficient in destroying a fair amount of the Protoss tech units and/or gateway core. About templar openings, this build is actually much more effective against templar than colossus first, as there is a rather large timing window where 2 base colossus allins can really rain on your parade. And templar really don't do as much damage as you'd think against this composition, in maxed fights you need a ridiculous amount of templar to get all necessary feedbacks and storms off, and that is detrimental to the rest of your army.
Banshee harass is an extremely good way to force additional observers and lower the stalker count so higher tech is slightly delayed in favor of spending more gas on stalker warpins, and as long as you play it smart and don't lose your banshees, you can even delay his third a bit by spreading him thin. But as long as you do get upgrades OP, this build seems like it would work well on larger maps, although you really need great scouting in order to not die earlier as you are investing in another cc.
And please stop with the high and mighty hurr durr NA sucks = gold Korea bullshit, because except at the very top of the ladder, skill level remains quite consistent, and you wouldn't bring up the point if you actually played on multiple servers. I'm currently actually higher on EU than NA with a relatively similar amount of games played, and that's eating lag as well.
On April 04 2012 19:47 KAmaKAsa wrote: This is gimmicky and bad. a templar opening completely stomps this push and scouting wasnt really happening all that much in the vods and your skill level is probs around NA masters or dia somewhere else. Every unit you have is energy based and getting ghosts delays this alot and you cant transition from this all that well since you dont have any upgrades on anything useful when your opponent has set up the counter composition to this... so that makes this an all in... the 1-1-1 all in is still somewhat viable with even more new variations coming from it, but this... style or build i would not recommend to anyone
Actually this build and composition seem similar to a build BeastyQT revived recently in some of his tournament play. In his game against Parting or Creator (forget) on Calm, he actually gets 5 bases after the game goes 20+ minutes...so allin? He generally gets mech upgrades and + attack for bio units so the composition scales very well, and it's quite easy to transition into a macro game as your push will very often prove cost efficient in destroying a fair amount of the Protoss tech units and/or gateway core. About templar openings, this build is actually much more effective against templar than colossus first, as there is a rather large timing window where 2 base colossus allins can really rain on your parade. And templar really don't do as much damage as you'd think against this composition, in maxed fights you need a ridiculous amount of templar to get all necessary feedbacks and storms off, and that is detrimental to the rest of your army.
Banshee harass is an extremely good way to force additional observers and lower the stalker count so higher tech is slightly delayed in favor of spending more gas on stalker warpins, and as long as you play it smart and don't lose your banshees, you can even delay his third a bit by spreading him thin. But as long as you do get upgrades OP, this build seems like it would work well on larger maps, although you really need great scouting in order to not die earlier as you are investing in another cc.
And please stop with the high and mighty hurr durr NA sucks = gold Korea bullshit, because except at the very top of the ladder, skill level remains quite consistent, and you wouldn't bring up the point if you actually played on multiple servers. I'm currently actually higher on EU than NA with a relatively similar amount of games played, and that's eating lag as well.
well what this guy is doing is weak and gimmicky i havent seen the game you mentioned with beastyqt and the NA is worse than EU/KR isnt bullshit actually.. yeah getting upgrades is obviously important but the build beastyqt mightve been map specific because in calm before the storm you can be very greedy with teching and economy due to the way the map is laid out. Haven't seen the game youre talking about so dno
Interesting build. I think templar would give it trouble if they control right, but I'm not somewhere able to view replays ATM, I might when I am home.
NA is worse than KR, but not gold. My friend is mid masters in NA and high plat on Korea, with lag. So yes its big but not huge.
Just a little comment, i watched the replay, i didnt realise that your build skips cloak so early. I mean, cloak is an expensive upgrade but can make the protoss go into overdrive to try and defend vs them, they have to have an obs at each mineral line, along with 2/3 stalkers. I think you are missing a great opportunity to harass the protoss while you get up a base. Otherwise, 1 gate Expand will just get ahead because they can be so greedy that your turtling. Anyway, Nice composition i think this gives something for terran to work with.
On April 04 2012 09:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have had 100 win% with one base 111 against protos, why should I switch to weaker one?
I used to 1 base 111 pretty consistently, but as you go up through the ranks better protoss will have it beat. That's what led to the evolution of this build.
Pros still win with this build in tournaments. There is still no really viable option against perfectly executed 111. Hight templars may cause problems but that is just micro issue.
Every build, every composition is beatable with proper scouting, composition, counters etc. If the build you are using now works well, have ater. I'm sharing a build that's worked well for me into Masters. Hope that's okay with you!
But there is no real counter to 111 yet even when scouted, protos loses to it.
gl with your 111... 111 is used in high level for a matter of mixing up the game, not as a standrad play - and as many ppl mentioned. the higher the level of your opp the weak your build will be.
Someone did this to me earlier today... but the problem is I like to get out a really fast immortal (Fastest possible Robo almost) and when I scouted a super early thor I just went and killed him the second my 2nd immortal popped... was kinda funny and sad at the same time.
You don't understand that hiding the heavy banshee play is a big part of this build. There is no way the protoss understand there are 3 starports thanks to early raven / thors / marines, and usually they expect a big all in. What does it mean ?
• He WON'T be prepared for 10-12 banshees right into his main at 14 min. He would need at least three canons and stalkers to save their probes. Usually, it's such a surprise that you'll kill around 25 probes, and destroy a working forge / a templar archive / or the robo trying to get out observers. The tech & economy loss IS ACTUALLY what will help you transition to late-game if you need even if you're late on upgrades. I went many many times into late game without issues. You must understand that If you harass him with early banshee, you can be sure he will set up defenses all round his main and mining bases and he will have 3-4 observers for the big fight, and that's not what you want.
• He's most likely think he's prepared with immos and colossus most of the time to counter the thor / mass marines. But the truth is, the 15 min engagement is totally one-sided if they don't have at least three observers, high templars full of energy, and storm researched. Any other composition WILL FAIL.
• Of course this build is NOT for Korean GM players with constant 200 apm, ability to harass with multiple banshees while macroing, and incredible decision making. Damn stop hiding the truth from yourself sometimes on TeamLiquid… You need to understand this is a strategy forum for all players, it's not meant to give advice to GSL code S players and the viability of builds begins when 99% of the players can win with a given strategy, not when code S players do. I even tend to think it's dumb to think GSL strats and builds are viable for us, because we don't have the control of MMA, MKP or MVP.
On April 04 2012 11:19 CaptainHaz wrote: Only got to play one game against Hammer, but I still echo my original concerns.
-Expansion is too slow vs economically aggressive openings from the Protoss. -Immortal busts are hard to stop, the one I did wasn't even too committal. -The army itself is a bit weak early on since you need kind of a deathball of thors and banshees. -Warp prism good unit....
Anyway, just one replay for now vs Hammer, we'll see what other ways there are to play against this.
Yeah, you really crushed that build. It would have been even more one sided if you plopped down a 3rd before you attacked his natural as you had the money anyway. Some points for hammer:
I really think you should incorporate upgrades into this build. +1 Vehicle weapons or even +1 Air weapons is pretty huge when you're making that many banshees/thors. 100/100 for Combat Shield is pretty important too, since 45 hp marines are pretty much garbage.
You also need to wall off, or partially wall off your natural. The immortal zealot bust at your natural should have done little to no damage, but because you had poor sim city and decision making (salvaging the bunker randomly without knowing what he's doing) you lost too much stuff and that killed your timing window. (Not to mention you didn't drop the PDD until half way into the fight).
The positioning of your army at your natural is...questionable. It allows someone to run up the ramp and get a half decent concave, instead of you having a solid concave setup before hand. Also kills any sort of defender's "ramp" advantage that you should take advantage of. You also REALLY need to build a barracks to lift it and send it to the bottom of your ramp so you can see what the hell they're doing (or scout somehow, since you lost so much stuff to an immortal/zealot/etc poke).
Definitely a viable build - I don't agree with teching to factory and then dropping your CC but that's just me, as it'd be much better to 1rax FE and then transition into thor banshee play so you aren't behind when they 1gate FE or nexus first. And getting a tech lab when you don't plan on upgrading marines or getting marauders/ghosts is like ugh, a reactor would be much better.
Lifting off your barracks and using it to wall along with a bunker pretty much says "hi, I'm not going bio, please build immortals and kill me" as well.
I've been doing something similar to this for a while now, and stalkers blinking into my main is usually what trips me up. Since I'm relying on mainly slow thors, and they will always have an obs for cloaked banshees, its really hard to come out on top when this happens.
The build and composition are pretty cool. It does have some big problems with chargelot / high templar, and takes a LONG time to remax after engagements, due to slow build time of Thor and Banshee. I think you'd want a late game transition to ghosts for this reason. also, 3 starports seems high, might try 2-2-2 to even out army.
edit- another concern is upgrades. you don't seem to upgrade much in the games I've watched. It's hard to figure out what to focus on in a longer game with marines, banshees, and thors as your composition. A protoss going heavy forge upgrades will eventually overpower you if you can't keep up, and investing in all 3 trees is hard.
watched the 2 youtube videos... tilted my head, then just shook it till the end. Horrible protoss players you faced.
First game, the protoss opened 3 gate expand on cross position and didn´t even try to use his expensive opening to be agressive - he didn't even do the standard stalker zealot poke. And around 6.00 he simply forgot to make probes for almost a minute, which resulted in the fact that when you turned income tab on, he was only ahead with 1 worker (40vs39), where he ought to be way ahead because of chrono boost (and usually do either 1 gate expand or be agressive if doing 2 or 3 gate expand).
2nd game, so this protoss at least got a faster expansion, but then he suddenly decides to put some preassure on while he´s doing that, for 3 bloody minutes (from 5.45 to 8.45) he doesn´t produce a single probe even though he´s floating minerals after each warpin.
There were so much bad play that it made me question if you´re facing gold rankers?
Now I do the marine thor banshee occasionally, and I really dislike your version. First off all, I would do gasless 1 rax expand rather than your awkward factory armory expand. You´d have more income and wouldn´t need to salvage and replace bunker at natural, going factory armory before expand, when you´re already planning on expanding seems backwards when it´s just as safe. Also your silly relocation of your barracks seems pointless to me. build it where you want it to be, and stop floating it around and maybe you´d actually have enough marines out to stop early preassure - in fact in cross position like shakuras you can delay your bunker by alot, if you just make marines constantly.
Not getting strike cannon seems risky to me, as strike cannon is good vs immortal and colossi and most importantly getting rid of all that energy vs feedback, but then again, 2/2/2 marine thor banshee usually hit earlier than your version.
I know there´s a skill difference (or at least most people would agree with me thinking so) between NA masters and EU masters, but I really doubt you´d have much success with that execution of 2/2/2 on EU in master ladder.
Nope, 2 basing with this composition is just not viable. 1-1-1 is so strong because it could be any composition. By expanding like this you've showed enough and protoss will just make colossus or tech storm. You need to hit before any of those timings.
On April 04 2012 19:28 WeathermanSC wrote: So, it seems that in all of your replays that you've gone for a maxed out (or close to maxed out) push at around the 13-15 minute mark and have just crushed your opponent. Do you have any matches with this build where you have played into the much later stages of the game? How would you prioritize upgrades? (armor/weapons, and air vs. ground). It seems like this really has to be approached as a "mech" build in the later stages as it looks like the Marines are basically fodder when they are incorporated.
That's a really good question about late game. Typically before the main "15 min" engagement I have my third almost done and have 2 rax + 1 factory + 2 starports. Lately I have been putting down another armory and also begin upgrades on banshee +1 attack, then thor +1 armor... the goal of the build is too reduce opponents income by taking out his min line at main prior to first engage and then being able to resupply quicker (kinda like zerg does, weaker units but more).
On April 04 2012 19:52 Lyyna wrote: Really nice build. I remember having a lots of fun after the beta with marineThorBanshee . . . Dunno why i stopped doing this composition
Anyway, your opening is really interesting. But i wanna ask : how do your hold 1 base stuff? You have low marine count and your first thor is here at around 7 min if you rush for it. . . and most 1base allin can hold around 6 min.
I scout for it, lay down second bunker and have scv's ready. By the time they get through the bunkers (if they do) THOR IS HERE and I can mass rep that.. and sometimes I lose to 1 base
On April 04 2012 20:00 Arcanefrost wrote: You should just 1rax fe and then go factory tech. Of course you will die to any all-in, but if you do a timing push yourself holding cheese is not a priority.
On April 04 2012 20:20 AvengerAzrael wrote: Why not open 2 Rax gasless expand (12/14 rax)?
I think it will trick the protoss into thinking you'll go for some pressure, plus you'll have sufficient marines while you tech up. Just an idea, I don't know how effective it is or has it been tried before.
I've been thinking about doing that for sometime now. Do you think it leaves me a little more vulnerable to DT and void play though?
On April 04 2012 21:08 Bourne wrote: Just a little comment, i watched the replay, i didnt realise that your build skips cloak so early. I mean, cloak is an expensive upgrade but can make the protoss go into overdrive to try and defend vs them, they have to have an obs at each mineral line, along with 2/3 stalkers. I think you are missing a great opportunity to harass the protoss while you get up a base. Otherwise, 1 gate Expand will just get ahead because they can be so greedy that your turtling. Anyway, Nice composition i think this gives something for terran to work with.
I've played around with early cloak and harass. It has some positive's and negatives. Protoss certainly has to react, and often overreacts to it. And sometimes they build more stalkers to deal with it (which are WEAK vs this comp). The problem is though, I really like my 14ish banshee attack at main min, and almost always kill 15-25 workers as a result of the "suprise". Because of my early raven and thor air range its fairly easy to take out snoopy obs and often they think its just thor/rine something.
On April 05 2012 01:17 mosfet wrote: How does this work against blink stalkers?
I've been doing something similar to this for a while now, and stalkers blinking into my main is usually what trips me up. Since I'm relying on mainly slow thors, and they will always have an obs for cloaked banshees, its really hard to come out on top when this happens.
Against blink stalkers it's fine, just know where they are and keep pushing them back. You can also throw in an ebay and put up turrets to take out obs.
Every time anybody comes up with a new TvP build that works in Master league, a bunch of angry nerds show up to explain that the opponents were bad and that the build is not viable at a high level.
Seems like there are very few Protoss who are actually any good if the ones in Master league are all bad
On April 05 2012 01:52 Unfeared wrote: Nope, 2 basing with this composition is just not viable. 1-1-1 is so strong because it could be any composition. By expanding like this you've showed enough and protoss will just make colossus or tech storm. You need to hit before any of those timings.
On April 05 2012 02:11 crocodile wrote: Every time anybody comes up with a new TvP build that works in Master league, a bunch of angry nerds show up to explain that the opponents were bad and that the build is not viable at a high level.
Seems like there are very few Protoss who are actually any good if the ones in Master league are all bad
On April 05 2012 02:11 crocodile wrote: Every time anybody comes up with a new TvP build that works in Master league, a bunch of angry nerds show up to explain that the opponents were bad and that the build is not viable at a high level.
Seems like there are very few Protoss who are actually any good if the ones in Master league are all bad
If you read TL, you might notice people think Protoss is the easy race to play. Similar thing happened in BW and we have a lot of 1a2a3aprotossnoobrace jokes. It is true that it was easier to rank up with Protoss in BW, and if true for SC2 then we should definitely see a lot of skill-less players making it too high with P.
The way the ladder works, it is possible to end up playing people that are a lot worse than you in a particular matchup. Like if you are super weak vT and vZ but good vP you will have super high winrates vs P because your mmr is too low and sets up games vs bad players. That's why everytime someone posts a nonstandard build every troll on the site starts talking "how come pros don't do this?", and in all honesty I agree that only super high level games count if you want to analyse balance. Maybe it is true that the guide poster worked up a way to get a broken mmr, but maybe the pros are all trying to get better with the current styles and just massgaming mindlessly. Nobody knows...
The fact is that we have developed a huge debate over the best unit compositions for Terran and people are defending their side too emotionally
I love the build, thanks to HammerSC2, this gives me hope as a Terran who is stuck in plat. I have tried using marine/tank style for many matchups but I think I do not have the APM to do as many things simultaneously as I need to.
With your specific timings, I am worried about the number of Collosi but since this is working for you, big props to you.
I agree. But who's talking about balance? I don't remember a part of the guide that said 'guys all the pros should start doing this and it's the best strategy ever.' It's just Hammer sharing a guide for a build that works.
The people explaining why it won't work at a higher level who ARE NOT helping to improve the build are really just trying to boost their egos. It's actually pathetic. If you don't think the build is viable, great! Keep it to yourself though. If you think the build has flaws and can be improved, EXPLAIN WHERE IT CAN BE IMPROVED. Don't just go 'your opponent was bad, this build is stupid you noob.'
On April 05 2012 02:51 D_K_night wrote: I love the build, thanks to HammerSC2, this gives me hope as a Terran who is stuck in plat. I have tried using marine/tank style for many matchups but I think I do not have the APM to do as many things simultaneously as I need to.
With your specific timings, I am worried about the number of Collosi but since this is working for you, big props to you.
That's awesome buddy! Good luck. Don't worry about Colloss as you can take em out easy with banshee's and pdd to protect. make sure keep marines behind thors
This isn't a viable strategy- you're trying to take a 111 allin-push, and make it a macro thing. That simply doesn't work for the reasons stated above (namely, you get more and more behind as time goes on)
On April 05 2012 02:51 crocodile wrote: I agree. But who's talking about balance? I don't remember a part of the guide that said 'guys all the pros should start doing this and it's the best strategy ever.' It's just Hammer sharing a guide for a build that works.
The people explaining why it won't work at a higher level who ARE NOT helping to improve the build are really just trying to boost their egos. It's actually pathetic. If you don't think the build is viable, great! Keep it to yourself though. If you think the build has flaws and can be improved, EXPLAIN WHERE IT CAN BE IMPROVED. Don't just go 'your opponent was bad, this build is stupid you noob.'
Improve the build: Don't expand, pull all scvs for first (and only attack). Done.
On April 05 2012 04:52 DYEAlabaster wrote: This isn't a viable strategy- you're trying to take a 111 allin-push, and make it a macro thing. That simply doesn't work for the reasons stated above (namely, you get more and more behind as time goes on)
Ahhh what are you talking about?? Did you watch the vid lol. Sort yourself out
Open demuslim TvZ style, it'll open smoother, and let you FE safely with a gas, and look like gasless FE. 12 rax 16 gas 22-23 CC at natural 24 factory 25 reactor.
Looks like gasless FE, and gives you 4 marines + bunker + a factory still fast, with a more economic FE where you don't cut marines or SCVs.
On April 05 2012 04:52 DYEAlabaster wrote: This isn't a viable strategy- you're trying to take a 111 allin-push, and make it a macro thing. That simply doesn't work for the reasons stated above (namely, you get more and more behind as time goes on)
I don't know if everyone posting this is trolling or just dumb. He throws a CC down at 22/23 supply, he doesn't even make a Starport until after his CC. There is no reactor on barracks, there is nothing produced out of the factory until the CC is down, etc. The only similarity it has with 1/1/1 is that it gets a factory and makes banshees... eventually.
Personally I think there are a lot of flaws with the build, but it has nothing to do with it being similar to a 1/1/1.
On April 05 2012 05:14 iAmJeffReY wrote: Open demuslim TvZ style, it'll open smoother, and let you FE safely with a gas, and look like gasless FE. 12 rax 16 gas 22-23 CC at natural 24 factory 25 reactor.
Looks like gasless FE, and gives you 4 marines + bunker + a factory still fast, with a more economic FE where you don't cut marines or SCVs.
in my eyes, this is a typical "1 time no more" strategy, because if i knew that my opponents plays that style very often, you can be sure that u have a 3-3 blink/charge army with tons of HTs against you - and then, try to rebuild your army before i have 5 bases up after you die once^^
im not saying its a bad build, it might work very well on ladder, but i dont see it being a solid TvP build because its too easy to abuse it.
On April 05 2012 06:14 crocodile wrote: How on earth do you expect to have a fully upgraded Gateway/Templar army by the time this hits? That is the silliest thing I have ever heard.
well, i saw now that he moves out on 2 base - in the text he was talking about establishing a 3rd and maxing out at 14 minutes, tahts why i assmued its simply his lategame comp as well.
make it 1-1 upgrades and storm/feedback, good enough to easily hold this. HTs simply rip this build, every unit has either tons of energy (feedback) or is low hp (marine/scv) and you dont have ways to stop me from storming and feedbacking.
On April 05 2012 02:11 crocodile wrote: Every time anybody comes up with a new TvP build that works in Master league, a bunch of angry nerds show up to explain that the opponents were bad and that the build is not viable at a high level.
Seems like there are very few Protoss who are actually any good if the ones in Master league are all bad
LOL, this ^
ofc low master protosses are all too "bad" - guess what, thats why they are low master. It is true that this build is very unlikely to work at a high level, since opponents know each other. its a 1 punch strat that can throw ppl off in a boX series probably, not more and not less.
Do you mind teaching me how to do this build on battle.net cause i like this build a lot and it looks really awesome to do. My tvp has been lacking a lot and plus i want to make sure i learn this the right way. Thanks for the vids by the way
First of all, one of the vods he posted (and im sure some of the replays) shows this build beating an HT build, as do some of the replays.
Second of all, NOBODY CARES if it doesn't work at a pro level. Hammer did not once claim that this works at a pro level. I don't know when TL decided that the only guides you can post are ones that work at pro level.
Believe it or not, some of us play this game for fun and are content not being in GM. This build is fun and can get a lot of free wins at most levels; does anything else about it really matter? Like I said if you want to improve the build that's fine, but don't just go stroking your e-peen by talking about how you are so good you could easily hold this off, because it's pathetic.
2 base timing push/all-ins are strong. Recently I have seen Jjaki, illusion, beastyqt, and supernova do some variant of a thor/banshee/marine 2 base all in. It isn't standard play, but its still strong.
On April 05 2012 06:27 crocodile wrote: First of all, one of the vods he posted (and im sure some of the replays) shows this build beating an HT build, as do some of the replays.
Second of all, NOBODY CARES if it doesn't work at a pro level. Hammer did not once claim that this works at a pro level. I don't know when TL decided that the only guides you can post are ones that work at pro level.
Believe it or not, some of us play this game for fun and are content not being in GM. This build is fun and can get a lot of free wins at most levels; does anything else about it really matter? Like I said if you want to improve the build that's fine, but don't just go stroking your e-peen by talking about how you are so good you could easily hold this off, because it's pathetic.
I would like to second this. There´s too much obsession with leagues in this community. It´s nice to see that there are some terrans who are having fun, playing around with mech, i like to try unorthodox builds myself so i can symphatize even though im toss.
One question for the OP, wouldn´t void rays be good vs. this?
I used to do a similar build to this, and it's quite easy to establish a decent economy. The issue is this type of composition doesn't work out late game, and you have no way of switching back to bio with your upgrade disadvantage. It is extremely powerful as a two base all-in timing build though.
What I've learned is that this type of composition is very easy to perfectly macro, and if the protoss does not macro very well in response, it becomes an auto win in the 13-15 minute mark. For that reason alone, you can get a ridiculous winrate at levels up to mid masters. The reasons it doesn't work in the late game is because Thors take way too long to rebuild, they're too immobile, and they don't trade highly in your favor vs a good late game protoss composition (which is what you need to happen when you have this type of composition).
The variation preferred by the progamers GSL (used 2 or 3 times before) is off two base with 1 reactor rax, 2 fact thor and 2 port banshee. That's the one that killed Huk in the up and downs.
This build is not "Strong", it's freaking Powerfull. (Phoenix HardCounter Banshee. Thor HardCounter Phoenix... so you don't by Phoenix, cuz they'll die fast. Voidray HardCounter Thor and Banshee... but rines HardCounter Voidray. Stalker might be good... but there is a raven that can throw 2PDD.. There, new terran deathball)
The only way (Maybe there's anothers) to "Beat" that composition is to mass out only HighTemplar at the 8Minutes mark. 1ht 200nrg can Feedback 4banshee, instantkill. Storm Banshee ONLY if they are stacked. 2Storm on marines or maybe 3, these storm has to be "Perfect" storm, using all the Aoe.
I've encountered this build, the guy did 2factory/2staport, rushing the +2Mecha Armor. He pushed out with 8Banshee and 8THor, something like 20marines. I had 3-1-1 upgrade, 10~15chargelot, 5immortal, 3voidrays. He just obliterated my army.. 10marine, 6thor,6banshee left....
On April 05 2012 06:47 AnalyZ wrote: Voidrays? No, there is marines.
This build is not "Strong", it's freaking Powerfull. (Phoenix HardCounter Banshee. Thor HardCounter Phoenix... so you don't by Phoenix, cuz they'll die fast. Voidray HardCounter Thor and Banshee... but rines HardCounter Voidray. Stalker might be good... but there is a raven that can throw 2PDD.. There, new terran deathball)
The only way (Maybe there's anothers) to "Beat" that composition is to mass out only HighTemplar at the 8Minutes mark. 1ht 200nrg can Feedback 4banshee, instantkill. Storm Banshee ONLY if they are stacked. 2Storm on marines or maybe 3, these storm has to be "Perfect" storm, using all the Aoe.
I've encountered this build, the guy did 2factory/2staport, rushing the +2Mecha Armor. He pushed out with 8Banshee and 8THor, something like 20marines. I had 3-1-1 upgrade, 10~15chargelot, 5immortal, 3voidrays. He just obliterated my army.. 10marine, 6thor,6banshee left....
On April 05 2012 06:47 AnalyZ wrote: Voidrays? No, there is marines.
This build is not "Strong", it's freaking Powerfull. (Phoenix HardCounter Banshee. Thor HardCounter Phoenix... so you don't by Phoenix, cuz they'll die fast. Voidray HardCounter Thor and Banshee... but rines HardCounter Voidray. Stalker might be good... but there is a raven that can throw 2PDD.. There, new terran deathball)
The only way (Maybe there's anothers) to "Beat" that composition is to mass out only HighTemplar at the 8Minutes mark. 1ht 200nrg can Feedback 4banshee, instantkill. Storm Banshee ONLY if they are stacked. 2Storm on marines or maybe 3, these storm has to be "Perfect" storm, using all the Aoe.
I've encountered this build, the guy did 2factory/2staport, rushing the +2Mecha Armor. He pushed out with 8Banshee and 8THor, something like 20marines. I had 3-1-1 upgrade, 10~15chargelot, 5immortal, 3voidrays. He just obliterated my army.. 10marine, 6thor,6banshee left....
I believe a way to counter this build is to build a fast third nexus if they can scout the armory, in the same way you counter a 1-1-1 with a fast expo. If you build the third nexus at a far away remote location, that is actually the best as T can't pressure it without giving protoss too much time to prepare (since thors are slow). I haven't tried the 2 port banshee variation much (it's probably stronger), but I've actually been the same variation this guide states for a while now. You can counter it with heavy colossus. I would win a lot of matches because my opponent would put heavy emphasis on immortals, but that results in an auto loss if terran puts his marines in the front.
Great to see this build finally on TL instead of the b.net forums. While initially negative, I think that it still works In a boX series like how jjakji uses it almost exclusively on daybreak. Some things to note (although said before), the expo is much later than it has to be, it's probably much better to 1 rax FE in base into double gas into Thor, then expand. While it is a very powerful composition, it is pretty much an all in for now because the reenforcemnt rate is so slow and takig additional bases espicially vs. warpprisms and proxy pylons would be hard. The strongest part of the build IMO is the banshee 'timing' that can snipe key tech or a ton of probes.
Hm, I didn't read the guide in full detail, but I noticed that you put emphasis on 3 port banshee. That's actually really cool and I haven't thought about that, since it's more mobile that variations with 2fact thor. I might have to try this out.
One question for the OP, wouldn´t void rays be good vs. this?
I'm not the OP but I have a hundred games with this build.
Void rays alone are not a danger because of the marine count + thor, however 3 gates + proxy void ray can be difficult to hold if they hit very early.
You can't really split your small army at 7:00 and if the protoss attacks in the back with the void ray and hit the front with 3 gates, it can end really fast. But this is easily scoutable (2 gaz, only 2 or 3 gates, no expand by 6-7 min > cheesy agression like DT or Void rays).
On April 05 2012 07:07 Vanchen wrote: Great to see this build finally on TL instead of the b.net forums. While initially negative, I think that it still works In a boX series like how jjakji uses it almost exclusively on daybreak. Some things to note (although said before), the expo is much later than it has to be, it's probably much better to 1 rax FE in base into double gas into Thor, then expand. While it is a very powerful composition, it is pretty much an all in for now because the reenforcemnt rate is so slow and takig additional bases espicially vs. warpprisms and proxy pylons would be hard. The strongest part of the build IMO is the banshee 'timing' that can snipe key tech or a ton of probes.
I would agree with the expo point. I would do this with a 1rax FE so I can push out earlier, since it doesn't compromise this type of build. If you stay on one base, it would make more sense to me to rush cloaked banshee since you can do eco damage early on, and potentially force protoss into cutting probes since he'll be nervous about the 1-1-1.
I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style:
concisely it is a weak style.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?"
2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well.
3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass
4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not.
This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example)
On April 05 2012 07:40 c0sm0naut wrote: I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style:
concisely it is a weak style.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?"
2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well.
3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass
4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not.
This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example)
It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better.
Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums.
On April 05 2012 07:40 c0sm0naut wrote: I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style:
concisely it is a weak style.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?"
2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well.
3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass
4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not.
This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example)
It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better.
Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums.
Seriously? You are a very annoying poster. First, you call people names for no reason. And you fight to the death to defend other peoples builds when people come to refute things. If anyone needs to go back to the bnet forums, it's you. You're childish. It's probably why you got a temp ban a while ago.
So, maybe back off, and let people express their opinions before shooting them down and calling names. It's a 'STRATEGY DISCUSSION' meaning people are going to discuss the positives and the negatives of the presented build.
So again, not even your thread, and you're doing nothing to help the thread by being a prick.
Sitting back and waiting for a maxed army with this composition is just asking to be countered. I don`t think hiding the Banshees for a surprise 14min attack to be a viable strat at all against a half-decent opponent. I mean, even if he doesn`t directly scout the banshees or the starports, he will know that something is up if he is only seeing ravens and thors as gas units from two bases at 10min, right?
The build should incorporate a 1rax-FE opening or early harass followed by a timing push... do something to throw off the Protoss, like Jjakji always does. Btw the guide should at least mention some of his games, it`s a great resource for this style.
On April 05 2012 05:14 iAmJeffReY wrote: Open demuslim TvZ style, it'll open smoother, and let you FE safely with a gas, and look like gasless FE. 12 rax 16 gas 22-23 CC at natural 24 factory 25 reactor.
Looks like gasless FE, and gives you 4 marines + bunker + a factory still fast, with a more economic FE where you don't cut marines or SCVs.
Thanks man, I will take a look at that
I do a very similar build, expect I go banshee marine tank off 2 base. 4-6rax-1fac-2 port hit at like 12 min with ~110 supply.
It loses to 3 gate VR, 3 gate robo all in, and fake 1 gate FE into 4 gate faggotry. But, I think you should get a cloakshee out before you thor, because with a cloakshee you can pressure and force more stalkers (bad against thors obviously), more OBs, and force probes to be pulled/lost.
Thor puts you in a defensive posture, and the first thor they see means immortals are coming, with possibility of collsai (which I feel isn't the answer). If anything, chargelot/ht/archon from a double forge should do the trick, as the archons can clean up the banshees with ease if they clump at all. Just mass FB, then form archons and hope the chargelots get good surface area.
I feel giving protoss time to scout and react to any 1-2 base all in is a bad idea. Letting them see at like minute 7-8 that you have a thor, is obvious your going thor/marine/_______. And delaying the push gives them chances to get things out to defend it better/change their build up to react more accordingly.
On April 05 2012 07:40 c0sm0naut wrote: I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style:
concisely it is a weak style.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?"
2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well.
3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass
4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not.
This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example)
It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better.
Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums.
Why are you being so defensive for him? The guy you quoted was essentially right on every mark that he placed. The build is a timing push, BUT, the guide deceives us, since it says it's an expansion build (expo usually means macro oriented build), but it doesn't actually function like a macro build (which you clearly acknowledge).
Also, the win rate is absolutely misleading about the strength of the build, since I could post a build that works 100 per cent of the time in bronze league but that works no place else, and thus have a "stronger" build than his; the title should be changed completely.
The person you are attacking's point are coherent and understandable and also true.
Also, don't you think viability and how good a build is are directly related? What you said is really kind of retarded about that :\.
On April 05 2012 07:40 c0sm0naut wrote: I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style:
concisely it is a weak style.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?"
2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well.
3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass
4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not.
This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example)
It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better.
Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums.
I'm sorry, but where in your post do you discuss this build and leave constructive feedback? For every point I made, i gave logic behind it and analyzed it from a hypothetical Protoss player's point of view. I suggested opening banshees instead, i suggested a weakness in the lategame due to mixing tech paths (perhaps circumented by eventually replacing marines with banshees), and then held the build to the "test" of the matchup -- can it survive rushes of the other player? Every build does this. Even rush builds. Look at SpecialistSC/Allinking's guide to the 4 thor + banshee timing attack: guess what? he discusses what the ZERG player can be aggressive with, and how to respond without sacrificing the timing
For a while before the nerf, most every XvP build was sure to be vetted: "will i survive a 4gate with this build?"
Are we just to suppose our opponents will never become aggressive? Are we just supposed to assume we kill him with the attack every time? I gave specific examples of builds that will give this build trouble. if you read further down on the strategy forum, you will see a guide to the protoss 4gate warp prism which has 8 zealots in your mineral line IIRC as well as 2 stalkers and a zealot bashing down your front door very very early. you will likely also find an aggressive PvX blink build guide on liquidpedia -- look at the timings of these builds versus the timings of when the thors come out and you will start to notice some very big holes in the opening that can be abused by a player who gets aggressive and doesn't sit in his base and wait for you to surprise him with whatever you've been cooking in the Terran kitchen
All with good intentions, I'm not a dick i'm just being realistic here
Jjakji used a build like this to take a game off MaNa in the Iron Squid tournament. I don't think the people calling it non-viable know what they're talking about...
They don't. I'm done with this thread because the trolls have taken over.
On April 05 2012 07:40 c0sm0naut wrote: I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style:
concisely it is a weak style.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?"
2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well.
3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass
4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not.
This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example)
It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better.
Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums.
Seriously? You are a very annoying poster. First, you call people names for no reason. And you fight to the death to defend other peoples builds when people come to refute things. If anyone needs to go back to the bnet forums, it's you. You're childish. It's probably why you got a temp ban a while ago.
So, maybe back off, and let people express their opinions before shooting them down and calling names. It's a 'STRATEGY DISCUSSION' meaning people are going to discuss the positives and the negatives of the presented build.
So again, not even your thread, and you're doing nothing to help the thread by being a prick.
I call people names who are doing something to merit me calling them a name. And for someone who seems offended by name-calling, you seem to be awfully quick to call me names: annoying, childish, prick. It's almost like you're some kind of hypocrite!
As for refuting things, what did they refute? The people who come here to explain why the build is not viable; what are they refuting? Hammer never claimed it was viable. He never said pros should use it. There was nothing being refuted because they're refuting a claim that was never made.
And are you really going to criticize me for defending other people's guides when dumbasses like you make useless, baseless arguments that don't contribute to the discussion?
Of course I'll fight to defend a build that I think is good when people say stuff that makes no sense and call the build bad. That's me expressing MY opinion. Ah, hypocrisy again! You say I can't express my opinion while you defend the opinions of others.
It's so obvious that you're only saying this to me because you disagree with me, because you're criticizing me for doing all the things you do yourself.
-point out the holes in the build (timings and scoutable triggers for Protoss) -how to scout a Protoss is aiming for one of these -how to possibly close the hole in time (reaktive play -yes I think Terran can do that too) -add replays executing (as well as failing) this build
Jjakji used a build like this to take a game off MaNa in the Iron Squid tournament. I don't think the people calling it non-viable know what they're talking about...
They don't. I'm done with this thread because the trolls have taken over.
Jjakji used a build like this to take a game off MaNa in the Iron Squid tournament. I don't think the people calling it non-viable know what they're talking about...
They don't. I'm done with this thread because the trolls have taken over.
Jjakji used a build like this to take a game off MaNa in the Iron Squid tournament. I don't think the people calling it non-viable know what they're talking about...
They don't. I'm done with this thread because the trolls have taken over.
Dude, youre the ONLY troll here.
Pot calling the kettle black, my troll friend.
What have you contributed to this? Hmmm? Other people have poked holes in it with theorycraft, as is expected with a strategy topic. I even suggested a smoother opening that transitions into the same build with a better econ, that is safer and could LOOK like a build that would make a protoss FE.
All your doing is showing your true age. If anyone disagrees, or says anything about what could counter this build, you jump all over them with...well... nothing. You have no argument. Nothing but misguided anger.
Again, no wonder you got/get temp banned often. Everytime you post, as I just checked, you contribute nothing to the discussion other than, well, 12 year old rage. It's sad, it really is. Now, how about you add to the discussion, or 'go back the to bnet forums'? ...friend =)
Here! Read through your posts. Not a single one doing anything but attacking people. Nothing about the build. Nothing about games. Nothing about anything related to strategy. Good job!!
On April 05 2012 02:11 crocodile wrote: Every time anybody comes up with a new TvP build that works in Master league, a bunch of angry nerds show up to explain that the opponents were bad and that the build is not viable at a high level.
Seems like there are very few Protoss who are actually any good if the ones in Master league are all bad
On April 05 2012 02:51 crocodile wrote: I agree. But who's talking about balance? I don't remember a part of the guide that said 'guys all the pros should start doing this and it's the best strategy ever.' It's just Hammer sharing a guide for a build that works.
The people explaining why it won't work at a higher level who ARE NOT helping to improve the build are really just trying to boost their egos. It's actually pathetic. If you don't think the build is viable, great! Keep it to yourself though. If you think the build has flaws and can be improved, EXPLAIN WHERE IT CAN BE IMPROVED. Don't just go 'your opponent was bad, this build is stupid you noob.'
On April 05 2012 05:01 crocodile wrote: That's a different build. Stop trolling please. You're pretty pathetic.
On April 05 2012 06:14 crocodile wrote: How on earth do you expect to have a fully upgraded Gateway/Templar army by the time this hits? That is the silliest thing I have ever heard.
On April 05 2012 06:27 crocodile wrote: First of all, one of the vods he posted (and im sure some of the replays) shows this build beating an HT build, as do some of the replays.
Second of all, NOBODY CARES if it doesn't work at a pro level. Hammer did not once claim that this works at a pro level. I don't know when TL decided that the only guides you can post are ones that work at pro level.
Believe it or not, some of us play this game for fun and are content not being in GM. This build is fun and can get a lot of free wins at most levels; does anything else about it really matter? Like I said if you want to improve the build that's fine, but don't just go stroking your e-peen by talking about how you are so good you could easily hold this off, because it's pathetic.
On April 05 2012 07:40 c0sm0naut wrote: I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style:
concisely it is a weak style.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?"
2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well.
3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass
4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not.
This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example)
It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better.
Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums.
Jjakji used a build like this to take a game off MaNa in the Iron Squid tournament. I don't think the people calling it non-viable know what they're talking about...
They don't. I'm done with this thread because the trolls have taken over.
On April 05 2012 07:40 c0sm0naut wrote: I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style:
concisely it is a weak style.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?"
2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well.
3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass
4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not.
This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example)
It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better.
Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums.
Seriously? You are a very annoying poster. First, you call people names for no reason. And you fight to the death to defend other peoples builds when people come to refute things. If anyone needs to go back to the bnet forums, it's you. You're childish. It's probably why you got a temp ban a while ago.
So, maybe back off, and let people express their opinions before shooting them down and calling names. It's a 'STRATEGY DISCUSSION' meaning people are going to discuss the positives and the negatives of the presented build.
So again, not even your thread, and you're doing nothing to help the thread by being a prick.
I call people names who are doing something to merit me calling them a name. And for someone who seems offended by name-calling, you seem to be awfully quick to call me names: annoying, childish, prick. It's almost like you're some kind of hypocrite!
As for refuting things, what did they refute? The people who come here to explain why the build is not viable; what are they refuting? Hammer never claimed it was viable. He never said pros should use it. There was nothing being refuted because they're refuting a claim that was never made.
And are you really going to criticize me for defending other people's guides when dumbasses like you make useless, baseless arguments that don't contribute to the discussion?
Of course I'll fight to defend a build that I think is good when people say stuff that makes no sense and call the build bad. That's me expressing MY opinion. Ah, hypocrisy again! You say I can't express my opinion while you defend the opinions of others.
It's so obvious that you're only saying this to me because you disagree with me, because you're criticizing me for doing all the things you do yourself.
Jjakji used a build like this to take a game off MaNa in the Iron Squid tournament. I don't think the people calling it non-viable know what they're talking about...
They don't. I'm done with this thread because the trolls have taken over.
Dude, youre the ONLY troll here.
Pot calling the kettle black, my troll friend.
Oh thanks! Here's another. The what... 7th post? Still nothing about this build.. =)
On April 05 2012 09:00 crocodile wrote: I've been temp banned once, man, get the fuck off your high horse. If you can't handle curse words, get off the internet.
I also find it fascinating that you fail to address any points I make, ever. You just ignore them and call me a little kid. Pretty retarded logic there. Are you really gonna use the 'you're probably 12' argument? Classic, but pretty sad in all honesty. I've contributed plenty to plenty of threads, I can't help it if the tide of stupid people like you unleash is too painful to witness without saying anything.
And now that you've hijacked this thread talking about me, who's the one failing to contribute? Don't you think it'd be better for you to bitch like a little girl at me in PMs instead of taking up the whole discussion in a thread where people might actually want to have a productive discussion? Seriously, you've got some issues man. Wow, you really dug through the entire thread to find all my posts? Seriously, you've got some issues man. Gotta give you props for commitment though <3
=) Yea it took all of 2 minutes to prove you do nothing but attack people and derail threads. You just aren't long for TL friend.
For my man croc again!
And by the way, the opener you suggested is absolutely awful. That opener will die to literally any 1 base play by Protoss. Why are you trying to set people up to lose? There's a reason that build is for TvZ.
Yes, that's why it's called SCOUTING. If they 1 base, you get siege tanks + siege instead of cloakshee first. =) There's a reason I play top masters, and you don't.
For OP--
Here's the opening I was talking about. http://drop.sc/153957 played it today against a 1.2k masters toss. Ignore the follow up, and make it suit you how you like, but here ya go.
I've been temp banned once, man, get the fuck off your high horse. If you can't handle curse words, get off the internet.
I also find it fascinating that you fail to address any points I make, ever. You just ignore them and call me a little kid. Pretty retarded logic there. Are you really gonna use the 'you're probably 12' argument? Classic, but pretty sad in all honesty. I've contributed plenty to plenty of threads, I can't help it if the tide of stupid people like you unleash is too painful to witness without saying anything.
And now that you've hijacked this thread talking about me, who's the one failing to contribute? Don't you think it'd be better for you to bitch like a little girl at me in PMs instead of taking up the whole discussion in a thread where people might actually want to have a productive discussion?
And by the way, the opener you suggested is absolutely awful. That opener will die to literally any 1 base play by Protoss. Why are you trying to set people up to lose? There's a reason that build is for TvZ.
Wow, you really dug through the entire thread to find all my posts? Seriously, you've got some issues man. Gotta give you props for commitment though <3
On April 05 2012 09:00 crocodile wrote: I've been temp banned once, man, get the fuck off your high horse. If you can't handle curse words, get off the internet.
I also find it fascinating that you fail to address any points I make, ever. You just ignore them and call me a little kid. Pretty retarded logic there. Are you really gonna use the 'you're probably 12' argument? Classic, but pretty sad in all honesty. I've contributed plenty to plenty of threads, I can't help it if the tide of stupid people like you unleash is too painful to witness without saying anything.
And now that you've hijacked this thread talking about me, who's the one failing to contribute? Don't you think it'd be better for you to bitch like a little girl at me in PMs instead of taking up the whole discussion in a thread where people might actually want to have a productive discussion?
And by the way, the opener you suggested is absolutely awful. That opener will die to literally any 1 base play by Protoss. Why are you trying to set people up to lose? There's a reason that build is for TvZ.
Wow, you really dug through the entire thread to find all my posts? Seriously, you've got some issues man. Gotta give you props for commitment though <3
You really aren't contributing very effectively to this thread since most of your posts have been just complaints about other people. When there are issues with the build they need to be addressed and if they are brought up with vaild claims supporting them, then you should address the critcisms instead of just saying "don't complain."
I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish, but for the most part you just seem to be defending the build without a lot of backing for your claim.
In response to Plexa, I want to say that if you are committing to heavy air play it would make more sense to just go for sky Terran style and rely on that instead of investing the gas into thors and to instead supplement your army with ghosts.
open with a techlab barracks, fake some marauder/reaper pressure while take second gas, make reactor on rax and build SP on techlab. easier to get the toss confused and still you can get your expo and your tech what you need.
Haha it has 111 replies. Now I ruined it jokes aside, this looks like a decent way to play. Since you would have to split upgrades, do you just transition to straight mech? I don't really see it working that well aside from a 2 base all-in. That's the problem with biomech in my opinion. Ghost mech on the other hand.....
On April 05 2012 10:27 DoctorFunk wrote: Haha it has 111 replies. Now I ruined it jokes aside, this looks like a decent way to play. Since you would have to split upgrades, do you just transition to straight mech? I don't really see it working that well aside from a 2 base all-in. That's the problem with biomech in my opinion. Ghost mech on the other hand.....
It feels like that, but I think, if the build had a 3CC opening, it would be better? With just 2 bases, you don't get the gas income necessary to keep building thors and banshees constantly and you definitely don't have the SCV amount to start such a huge tech play at the early game and still pump marines. Think about it, once you get 3 bases really quickly, you could use this build to large amount of merit, because upgrades are able to be used in the build once it starts pumping that gas from 3 bases.
So, from what I think (go ahead and point me wrong at any turn)...
The build has to start off economic. It's a necessity to start economic because the composition we want is mech play, and not only that, but also some of the more expensive mech units like thors, ravens, and banshees. Realistically, the units for that cannot be pumped from 2 base without a fast expand build, which this one isn't, so we have to give the 1-1-1 aspect of this build up because it puts us behind on all accounts.
So, what we need, is large amount of marines and bunkers to protect us from early aggression and Protoss attacks; this is solved through constantly scouting the map for proxy pylons with like the first 4 marines, and avoiding battles all together (if we see any clues of an all in, we return and get more bunkers and marines). If we keep scouting with the 4 marines, we can go ahead and decipher if it is safe for a fast triple OC so we can get our economy rolling. Obviously, on big maps like TDA we absolutely avoid using this build, but on small maps where we have a general sense of where proxy pylons are going to be, we can run our marines to there and around.
Next thing is just surviving till the 12 minute mark, so we can get the thors and banshees out to save us. I guess it would be relatively smart to push the first banshee you have into attacking their probe line; then the next ones will be at home safely, and you'll return your original banshee home once you have the clear on having a thor (you can defend your base relatively well now, since if they are rushing Colossi you can just start producing vikings because we have the gas to produce vikings and you should be able to see Colossi since your banshee had the other role of scouting as well as pressuring).
After that, I dunno, I can't think much farther ahead than that lol. That's kinda my suggestion to this build, so it becomes a little more macro oriented.
I think that the composition is very good it is different and can be very effective if played the right way. That said I think that your build is very unrefined.
First off you are very vulnerable to early cheese how would you deal with 3 gate void raid when you only have 3-5 marines and maybe a thor? What about a 3 gate immortal bust or a 4 gate warp prism? If you choose to go for gas before a cc you must must get a reactor on the barracks and maybe a starport before the cc or you will be very vulnerable to immortal bust, voidray all in, and warp prism all ins. With the reactor you get enough marines to be able to hold these or at least enough to fill a 2-3 bunkers.
The second big problem I have with the style that you play is the lack of upgrades. Thors with armor upgrades are much more efficient. While you might not think you need them since you usually kill the toss early what happens when they do kill your army? You will be severely behind in upgrades and your army will be much much weaker. You do not need to upgrade all air, ground, and mech but upgrading your thors or banshees(depending on which one you favor more) will do wonders.
Third you need ghosts. You NEED ghost. The replay that you provided with a protoss that went for high templar was sketchy. They horribly miscontrolled their high templar and did not even use feedback. The ghost allow you to nullify high templar and make your army much safer. Not to mention that they can get rid of immortals hardened shields which allow your army to kill them faster.
The fourth and biggest problem is that you do not scout very much. This style need to scout consistently in order to be safer and allow you to move on into the mid game comfortable. While the replays that you show are not effected by this it is something that is hugely important. You need to know when you need to build vikings, when to start getting a lot of ghosts, or when you are able to push and punish the protoss.
Could you post more recent replays. The ones that you provided are 50 or so days old; a lot can change in this time period. How do master tosses deal with this style in say march or april. Have you updated it at all since then? In addition you should also include replays of you loosing with this style. No style is unbeatable and it would be nice to see where this falls short or what makes you lose that could be improved. For example how do you deal with a six gate all in, blink all in, how do you deal with greedy tosses that take a fast 3rd, what about a two forge style toss, or a toss that can control their ht properly to storm AND feedback your army. What about the late game do you transition into something else? Do you keep going or what do you do.
A similar build to this that is much more refined is the one featured on day[9]'s daily found here. This lets you pressure a little kill some probes and maybe even outright kill them with cloak banshee if the toss is too greedy. The ordering allows you to quickly get the gas income to produce thors banshees and marines as well. The most important part however is that it incorporates upgrades this makes you a lot stronger in the mid game makes it easier to hold all ins, and set you enter the late game later on with good upgrades instead of having 0-0 everything. You can continue to keep the composition you have instead on transitioning into full on mech or choose to keep following the style discussed in day[9]'s daily.
I personally do this style but prefer to go for a 1 rax fe into cloak banshees eventually transitioning into thor marine banshee. This allows me to get up a good economy without relying on doing damage to get an even economy and having a factory that is able to produce tank if need be it allows me to be safe against potential all ins. The third gas at my natural also allows me to start upgrades much faster.
MaNa got crushed with the same army composition, the same push, with a different BO :
Look at how STRONG the push is, how one-sided the engagement is, how wrong MaNa's army is.
So THIS IS viable. If even an international pro gamer like Mana didn't scout this and chose the wrong army comp, think about how effective it is on ladder… Now Hammer build can be refined, but the general idea is here and this push is working even at pro level.
But continue to theorycraft blindly during hours "it's not viable blabla too weak blabla"
Look at how STRONG the push is, how one-sided the engagement is, how wrong MaNa's army is.
So THIS IS viable. If even an international pro gamer like Mana didn't scout this and chose the wrong army comp, think about how effective it is on ladder… Now Hammer build can be refined, but the general idea is here and this push is working even at pro level.
But continue to theorycraft blindly during hours "it's not viable blabla too weak blabla"
Nobody is saying that the composition isn't viable and as you linked there have been many examples of this composition working. The Hammer BUILD though needs a lot of work with re-arranging the buildings and order of gasses because right now as many people have pointed out, it is inefficient for harassing and getting econ together for a timing attack.
Look at how STRONG the push is, how one-sided the engagement is, how wrong MaNa's army is.
So THIS IS viable. If even an international pro gamer like Mana didn't scout this and chose the wrong army comp, think about how effective it is on ladder… Now Hammer build can be refined, but the general idea is here and this push is working even at pro level.
But continue to theorycraft blindly during hours "it's not viable blabla too weak blabla"
Just because a build works in one game does not mean it is viable it just means that in a very specific instance it works. That being said this has worked in more than one game, three others that come to mind are this one , this one, and this one (need a gsl season 2 ticket to watch the last one). A really important thing to note however was the beastyqt has been the only professional so far that has take this composition to the late game. This would make beastyqt's game a really important one to study in order to determine how this style work out in the late game and as less of a 2 base timing.
Another thing to think about is that a style should not be viable due to mistakes that an opponent makes. If your opponent does not scout and you win that does not mean the style is viable it just means that your opponent did not react correctly. A style should be viable when it can work in multiple situations not just viable when your opponent screws up. Of course that is my opinion on what being viable means different people will see styles and builds as viable differently based on different critiria.
Look at how STRONG the push is, how one-sided the engagement is, how wrong MaNa's army is.
So THIS IS viable. If even an international pro gamer like Mana didn't scout this and chose the wrong army comp, think about how effective it is on ladder… Now Hammer build can be refined, but the general idea is here and this push is working even at pro level.
But continue to theorycraft blindly during hours "it's not viable blabla too weak blabla"
However, note Jjakji's infrastructure as the push commences - i have not seen the replay in question, but have seen two other games of Jjakji doing this build in TvP (a very good game on day break comes to mind). From what i understand there is no way to win after the push fails (in the circumstance that it does fail) because the infrastructure is just so awkward and has no ability to compete with warpgate units after a certain point (where mass warpins start happening, faactory units just seem to build in slow motion -- especially banshees and thors. very long build time just to see it feedbacked by a unit warped in seconds before the engagement.
A lot has gone on since I was last on lol. You guys can say its not viable, the order is not good, should 1Rax FE... I win a lot with it. I scout. Sometimes I have to change the order of things to deal with what I scout. Sometimes I cap the refinery of opponent, or delay starport or make 2nd bunker, or pump non-stop marines... the build works up through Masters. End of story. Cheers!
On April 05 2012 16:37 HammerSC2 wrote: A lot has gone on since I was last on lol. You guys can say its not viable, the order is not good, should 1Rax FE... I win a lot with it. I scout. Sometimes I have to change the order of things to deal with what I scout. Sometimes I cap the refinery of opponent, or delay starport or make 2nd bunker, or pump non-stop marines... the build works up through Masters. End of story. Cheers!
To me, it feels that the only time this would work extensively well is when you are simply better than your opponent, as a sort of 'troll' build, if you understand what I'm saying. While it may be that you beat masters/etc with it, there just seems a better alternative that you could be using, and that you would be doing better with that alternative.
For example, Jjakji a- often uses weird builds to catch players off guard, and b- is wayyyyyyyyyy better than mana (esp cause mana's in school and has been playing fairly poorly recently.
Good build to have, but it's success stems more from you just being better than the people you're playing rather than it being a 'good' BO.
EDIT- Another 'troll' build order is Nex first in PvP. It can work in GM/High Masters (Grubby showed us), but Grubby was so much better than the person he was playing.
Jjakji used a build like this to take a game off MaNa in the Iron Squid tournament. I don't think the people calling it non-viable know what they're talking about...
Jjakji build incorporates earlier harras (this game, it was the fastest clock banshee possible ), which is different from what the OP does. You can see that Jjakji was leading resources lost 1150 to 50 before the engagement, and that he forced mana to keep both observers at home, delaying scouting of the expansion and composition.
Doing things like this to throw off the Protoss and following with a timing push is how I`ve seen this style working at pro level. I can't see why skipping the harass phase (or not throwing mind games, like leading with 1rax-FE) would make the build any better. I don`t think it makes it any safer, for instance.
Its a build fairly well presented. Why would anyone give a fuck if 111 is unbeatable when this thread is not about it? If it is unbeatable maybe here is another build that can do well against protoss thus exposing more ways that they suck.
Moreover there is a lot of negative theory crafting ... what happened to evidence? (Especially aimed at any and all non constructive comments
You're doing it wrong OP, I use the same composition but I open different and no I'm not sharing.
As others have said, you're not harassing at all, the protoss flies an obs in and will see the early armory and know right off the bat for the rest of the game what is up. He'll just macro since you're just sitting in your base chronoing w/e he wants.
I honestly can't believe you're winning with this like others have said which leads me to believe that toss still are up in arms about how to exactly respond to this build.
On April 05 2012 16:37 HammerSC2 wrote: A lot has gone on since I was last on lol. You guys can say its not viable, the order is not good, should 1Rax FE... I win a lot with it. I scout. Sometimes I have to change the order of things to deal with what I scout. Sometimes I cap the refinery of opponent, or delay starport or make 2nd bunker, or pump non-stop marines... the build works up through Masters. End of story. Cheers!
Thanks for sharing the build. But I think the build need to worked on like adding some stuff like the hard counters, soft counters, scouting, maps etc... I like this build, at least it works for me =D
Also, I have a question about upgrade, you said only upgrade Cloak and Shield, so how bout Armory upgrades, not possible ?
On April 05 2012 22:09 shivver wrote: You're doing it wrong OP, I use the same composition but I open different and no I'm not sharing.
As others have said, you're not harassing at all, the protoss flies an obs in and will see the early armory and know right off the bat for the rest of the game what is up. He'll just macro since you're just sitting in your base chronoing w/e he wants.
I honestly can't believe you're winning with this like others have said which leads me to believe that toss still are up in arms about how to exactly respond to this build.
Lol, k buds. Another cranky nerd
I like Protoss scouting the armory. I almost always take it out when raven pops, and then quickly lay down 2 starports and start banshee production. I often win because they are responding more to a thor based build and not as much vs air. You have your build, I have mine. I know you can open 1rax fe etc, but that is still vulnerable to lots of different play from protoss...
On April 05 2012 16:37 HammerSC2 wrote: A lot has gone on since I was last on lol. You guys can say its not viable, the order is not good, should 1Rax FE... I win a lot with it. I scout. Sometimes I have to change the order of things to deal with what I scout. Sometimes I cap the refinery of opponent, or delay starport or make 2nd bunker, or pump non-stop marines... the build works up through Masters. End of story. Cheers!
Thanks for sharing the build. But I think the build need to worked on like adding some stuff like the hard counters, soft counters, scouting, maps etc... I like this build, at least it works for me =D
Also, I have a question about upgrade, you said only upgrade Cloak and Shield, so how bout Armory upgrades, not possible ?
You're welcome! I add things that counter, as well as scout. Those vids are a bit older and not necessarily exactly what I do. I often produce vikings in response to early air play or change initial defense based on what I'm scouting. You can def do Armory upgrades, but the point of the build is to max-out as quick as possible, (and I like to hit before too many ht's are on the field or 2/2 is finished for protoss). Good luck!
Gotta give it you you Hammer...this build does work. It just throws dimensions at the Toss that they are not used to dealing with...much nicer than the standard bio play. I have been doing 1 rax fe, cc first, or 2 rax pressures with marginal success. Tried this build 3 times yesterday, won all 3. Everybody that i played listed the reasons that it was a crap build afterwards...and to them all I had to say was "then you should have beaten it".
Was also real cool to meet you on ladder the same day that I had printed and was studying your build order! That was a gg, and congrats on getting into Masters!
Sorry if this has been posted already, but this build (and slight varitions of it, including a gasless 1 rax FE into this prod. building array) has been used by pros and discussed in a Day9 daily even.
On April 06 2012 02:13 Cycle wrote: Sorry if this has been posted already, but this build (and slight varitions of it, including a gasless 1 rax FE into this prod. building array) has been used by pros and discussed in a Day9 daily even.
I saw the Day9 episode a little while back! I've been doing the build since last spring, so it's cool to see pro's using variations and similar compositions lately Thanks for sharing the link!
On April 06 2012 02:03 Belial154 wrote: Gotta give it you you Hammer...this build does work. It just throws dimensions at the Toss that they are not used to dealing with...much nicer than the standard bio play. I have been doing 1 rax fe, cc first, or 2 rax pressures with marginal success. Tried this build 3 times yesterday, won all 3. Everybody that i played listed the reasons that it was a crap build afterwards...and to them all I had to say was "then you should have beaten it".
Was also real cool to meet you on ladder the same day that I had printed and was studying your build order! That was a gg, and congrats on getting into Masters!
Real interested to talk to you about TvZ!!
Thanks man, that awesome that you've already had some success with the build! Feel free to add me in game hammer#218.
This sort of play isnt very viable in Tvp tbh.The success you have seen may be due to the fact that it was many players first time really dealing with the style, but it only took a few games for most to learn how to deal with it. Ive encountered it myself a few times now, and the turtle mech style of terran is playing right into the greatest strength of a late game Protoss. Protoss can easily take a super fast 3rd base, and tech up the entire tree before a 14 minute push on the map begins, and even begin the 4th base meanwhile. Feedback and Immortals are ridiculously good vs that sort of composition, and the templars will be able to use the full arsenal of feedbacks due to the lack of sieged tanks or emp. PDDs, Ravens, Half of the Thors, and Banshees are just going to melt, especially since most of them will have full energy. So lets say that the protoss stops a push or engages you outside your base and forces you to wait for the army again, this is where a protoss is going to macro faster on more economy and simply overwhelm this build.
I feel like if you incorporated cloaked banshees early and often as a form of harassment, and perhaps a wave or 2 of hellions, the end result of this build would be much more sucessfull, perhaps something to think about at the least
I saw this A-while ago on the Bnet forums.. Tried it, it worked, it was easy, its a nice build, gratz on making it, but I wouldnt replace standard builds / plays with this. I would however, if I was a player good enough to, throw this build at a toss if I won round one in a tournament thats bo3.
Tldr
Wouldnt replace standard TvP with this, still its nice to know and have your builds.
Maybe you can use it against some 'retard' toss who keeps pawning you on ladder lol.
On April 06 2012 02:58 MafiaCheese wrote: This sort of play isnt very viable in Tvp tbh.The success you have seen may be due to the fact that it was many players first time really dealing with the style, but it only took a few games for most to learn how to deal with it. Ive encountered it myself a few times now, and the turtle mech style of terran is playing right into the greatest strength of a late game Protoss. Protoss can easily take a super fast 3rd base, and tech up the entire tree before a 14 minute push on the map begins, and even begin the 4th base meanwhile. Feedback and Immortals are ridiculously good vs that sort of composition, and the templars will be able to use the full arsenal of feedbacks due to the lack of sieged tanks or emp. PDDs, Ravens, Half of the Thors, and Banshees are just going to melt, especially since most of them will have full energy. So lets say that the protoss stops a push or engages you outside your base and forces you to wait for the army again, this is where a protoss is going to macro faster on more economy and simply overwhelm this build.
I feel like if you incorporated cloaked banshees early and often as a form of harassment, and perhaps a wave or 2 of hellions, the end result of this build would be much more sucessfull, perhaps something to think about at the least
You're not understanding the purpose of the build! It's to do a timing attack with a massive banshee hit on his natural, pull him out of position and attack accordingly. And you know you can micro even vs HT's! I have games where I don't win the initial battle and go on to win the games all the time. People who comment without trying the build have no authority A few recent examples:
On April 05 2012 22:09 shivver wrote: You're doing it wrong OP, I use the same composition but I open different and no I'm not sharing.
As others have said, you're not harassing at all, the protoss flies an obs in and will see the early armory and know right off the bat for the rest of the game what is up. He'll just macro since you're just sitting in your base chronoing w/e he wants.
I honestly can't believe you're winning with this like others have said which leads me to believe that toss still are up in arms about how to exactly respond to this build.
God, nice post. Nice sharing of your own build, you know how to imrprove it, but you don't even try to help us with your post. You are probably a pro , so if you share your knowledge you are afraid you are going to get demolished easy on tournaments. Take care friend, you don't want to lose your prizes!
On April 06 2012 03:09 ThisisRaider wrote: I saw this A-while ago on the Bnet forums.. Tried it, it worked, it was easy, its a nice build, gratz on making it, but I wouldnt replace standard builds / plays with this. I would however, if I was a player good enough to, throw this build at a toss if I won round one in a tournament thats bo3.
Tldr
Wouldnt replace standard TvP with this, still its nice to know and have your builds.
Maybe you can use it against some 'retard' toss who keeps pawning you on ladder lol.
Ya it's great for laddering, but shouldn't be your only build etc! Thanks for your input
Im just commenting as a person who regularly beats said build and offering some alternative styles of using the build. It would be much more viable if there were a few different ways to play it out and keep the opponent guessing, and preventing the hard counter that a slow mech timing will allow for, thats all . Its going to be a much better style when the expansion comes out
You can not possibly put a percentage win/loss ratio on a certain build order....I do use this build also and im top 25 GM terran but I don't feel it has an 80% win ratio?
On April 06 2012 07:21 _Ripndip_ wrote: You can not possibly put a percentage win/loss ratio on a certain build order....I do use this build also and im top 25 GM terran but I don't feel it has an 80% win ratio?
That's roughly the percentage I've won platinum through masters On another note, I would love to chat with you about the build, orders etc being that you're GM and all. hammer#218 or leave/pm yours if you wouldn't mind! Cheers.
On April 05 2012 17:20 JimCozad wrote: I've been using the Jjaki version of this build for a couple of days and i must say it is very effective. Low masters on EU for reference.
I like his build a lot too. I just don't have the APM to harass etc to pull it off.
Could you post a game of this working on a map with a 3rd that's relatively simple to defend? Even if the map is small, that's fine, I just noticed every replay you've shown to us has been of a relatively hard to defend 3rd.
Also, a game of the Protoss doing a sort of all in, like 6 gate.
The maps these were posted on were fairly unfavorable for a macro style, but the protoss you were facing did some funky responses, even though they saw the heavy tech on 2 bases.
EDIT: Upon further inspection, the Protoss engages at odd angles. For example, they have this need to engaged your army, even though they know you are right outside their walls. These ad engagements on their part and good ones on yours are generally why you won (I feel). Why not just wait for Colossi, while defending the base with Blink stalkers?
I think, as many dissenters of this play do, that this 1-1-1 is wrong. It hits at a weirder timing that I think most Protoss are used to compared to the standard bio balls, but it is played well by you ^_^, even if only due to familiarity. I wouldn't go so far as to say that NA masters is simply weak, but the creativity involved in the build which makes it function fairly well, is good enough to fuck with their heads. I would, however, go so far as to say that the build won't be good on Antiga Shipyard, TDA, Korhal Compound LE, and Cloud Kingdom.
TL;DR - I think the wins have more to do with the fact that Protoss can destroy this usually if they get 3 base, however, the games you usually play from the replays, show them never expanding off 2 base economy, just because they have no idea if it is safe or not because of their inexperience with the build. In general, you know how to play mech relatively well, but I feel like a super economic build like 1 gate FE into 3 Nexus can hold this off easily because of the timing of the push.
If you could post these replays of a protoss doing this to you while you do your build:
1) Super greedy build 2) All in at 9 minutes (I think that's just when the first thor is produced)
And a replay of with a different map like Cloud Kingdom, rather than Shak Plat (435234523452) and Shattered Temple (35235435), then I'll withdraw my complaints about this build. But, the protoss has to be masters', so you should ask one of your practice partners to help you, or hell, ask anyone on this thread that's masters.
On April 06 2012 13:09 furerkip wrote: Could you post a game of this working on a map with a 3rd that's relatively simple to defend? Even if the map is small, that's fine, I just noticed every replay you've shown to us has been of a relatively hard to defend 3rd.
Also, a game of the Protoss doing a sort of all in, like 6 gate.
The maps these were posted on were fairly unfavorable for a macro style, but the protoss you were facing did some funky responses, even though they saw the heavy tech on 2 bases.
Are you thinking Antiga or Entombed? Also just curious as to why...
On April 06 2012 13:09 furerkip wrote: Could you post a game of this working on a map with a 3rd that's relatively simple to defend? Even if the map is small, that's fine, I just noticed every replay you've shown to us has been of a relatively hard to defend 3rd.
Also, a game of the Protoss doing a sort of all in, like 6 gate.
The maps these were posted on were fairly unfavorable for a macro style, but the protoss you were facing did some funky responses, even though they saw the heavy tech on 2 bases.
Are you thinking Antiga or Entombed? Also just curious as to why...
Antiga is fine. I'm just wondering if the build only works on certain maps that make the 3rd hard to defend, or if that's just a random property of the games you've shown us.
On April 06 2012 13:09 furerkip wrote: Could you post a game of this working on a map with a 3rd that's relatively simple to defend? Even if the map is small, that's fine, I just noticed every replay you've shown to us has been of a relatively hard to defend 3rd.
Also, a game of the Protoss doing a sort of all in, like 6 gate.
The maps these were posted on were fairly unfavorable for a macro style, but the protoss you were facing did some funky responses, even though they saw the heavy tech on 2 bases.
Are you thinking Antiga or Entombed? Also just curious as to why...
Antiga is fine. I'm just wondering if the build only works on certain maps that make the 3rd hard to defend, or if that's just a random property of the games you've shown us.
On April 06 2012 13:09 furerkip wrote: Could you post a game of this working on a map with a 3rd that's relatively simple to defend? Even if the map is small, that's fine, I just noticed every replay you've shown to us has been of a relatively hard to defend 3rd.
Also, a game of the Protoss doing a sort of all in, like 6 gate.
The maps these were posted on were fairly unfavorable for a macro style, but the protoss you were facing did some funky responses, even though they saw the heavy tech on 2 bases.
EDIT: Upon further inspection, the Protoss engages at odd angles. For example, they have this need to engaged your army, even though they know you are right outside their walls. These ad engagements on their part and good ones on yours are generally why you won (I feel). Why not just wait for Colossi, while defending the base with Blink stalkers?
I think, as many dissenters of this play do, that this 1-1-1 is wrong. It hits at a weirder timing that I think most Protoss are used to compared to the standard bio balls, but it is played well by you ^_^, even if only due to familiarity. I wouldn't go so far as to say that NA masters is simply weak, but the creativity involved in the build which makes it function fairly well, is good enough to fuck with their heads. I would, however, go so far as to say that the build won't be good on Antiga Shipyard, TDA, Korhal Compound LE, and Cloud Kingdom.
TL;DR - I think the wins have more to do with the fact that Protoss can destroy this usually if they get 3 base, however, the games you usually play from the replays, show them never expanding off 2 base economy, just because they have no idea if it is safe or not because of their inexperience with the build. In general, you know how to play mech relatively well, but I feel like a super economic build like 1 gate FE into 3 Nexus can hold this off easily because of the timing of the push.
If you could post these replays of a protoss doing this to you while you do your build:
1) Super greedy build 2) All in at 9 minutes (I think that's just when the first thor is produced)
And a replay of with a different map like Cloud Kingdom, rather than Shak Plat (435234523452) and Shattered Temple (35235435), then I'll withdraw my complaints about this build. But, the protoss has to be masters', so you should ask one of your practice partners to help you, or hell, ask anyone on this thread that's masters.
Here are replays vs Masters players with varying expansion timings on their part. The first Thor completes just after 7... and most attacks that are hard to deal with are either 1 base 6 minute attacks (which I scout for) or a 10-11 minute push off of 2 bases.
I think, as many dissenters of this play do, that this 1-1-1 is wrong. It hits at a weirder timing that I think most Protoss are used to compared to the standard bio balls, but it is played well by you ^_^, even if only due to familiarity. I wouldn't go so far as to say that NA masters is simply weak, but the creativity involved in the build which makes it function fairly well, is good enough to fuck with their heads. I would, however, go so far as to say that the build won't be good on Antiga Shipyard, TDA, Korhal Compound LE, and Cloud Kingdom.
TL;DR - I think the wins have more to do with the fact that Protoss can destroy this usually if they get 3 base, however, the games you usually play from the replays, show them never expanding off 2 base economy, just because they have no idea if it is safe or not because of their inexperience with the build. In general, you know how to play mech relatively well, but I feel like a super economic build like 1 gate FE into 3 Nexus can hold this off easily because of the timing of the push.
The build does fine on Antiga, Korhal and Cloud Kingdom. I find TDA is a little toughter due to the exposed natural and back cliffs, but I have it vetoed so I haven't played it for sometime.
In reference to that "Protoss can destroy this usually if they get 3 base" is far from accurate. I win many games against protoss that get an early third, or at least earlier than mine.
Not sure what to tell ya, if it goes late game I win most of em It's the early 1 base aggression that is sometimes hard to deal with... Cheers.
I think, as many dissenters of this play do, that this 1-1-1 is wrong. It hits at a weirder timing that I think most Protoss are used to compared to the standard bio balls, but it is played well by you ^_^, even if only due to familiarity. I wouldn't go so far as to say that NA masters is simply weak, but the creativity involved in the build which makes it function fairly well, is good enough to fuck with their heads. I would, however, go so far as to say that the build won't be good on Antiga Shipyard, TDA, Korhal Compound LE, and Cloud Kingdom.
TL;DR - I think the wins have more to do with the fact that Protoss can destroy this usually if they get 3 base, however, the games you usually play from the replays, show them never expanding off 2 base economy, just because they have no idea if it is safe or not because of their inexperience with the build. In general, you know how to play mech relatively well, but I feel like a super economic build like 1 gate FE into 3 Nexus can hold this off easily because of the timing of the push.
The build does fine on Antiga, Korhal and Cloud Kingdom. I find TDA is a little toughter due to the exposed natural and back cliffs, but I have it vetoed so I haven't played it for sometime.
In reference to that "Protoss can destroy this usually if they get 3 base" is far from accurate. I win many games against protoss that get an early third, or at least earlier than mine.
Not sure what to tell ya, if it goes late game I win most of em It's the early 1 base aggression that is sometimes hard to deal with... Cheers.
Well, then I have no more complaints ^_^. Best of luck on ladder with this!
I hate facing these builds. In a vacuum, they're actually quite weak because they're so slow to expand and the eventual composition gets rocked by chargelot/archon/templar/immortal, but because they look like 111 all-in, P is forced to cut probes at 35-38 and either stop teching or tech colossi. So because 111 all-in is so strong and so common, against this build, P will usually sacrifice the economy lead that he should have due to T's late expansion, and P will either greatly delay tech or research the wrong tech.
The end result is that by nestling itself into a "fake 111 all-in" niche in the metagame, this build, which would be weak without the cover of 111 all-in, becomes very strong. 80% win rate isn't real tho. That's got a lot to do with people not knowing how to play against it.
Is this build not all-in ish after your first push? U dont have any upgrades for your marine's except cshields/Stim No armory upgrades or marine upgrades.
On April 06 2012 23:11 kcdc wrote: I hate facing these builds. In a vacuum, they're actually quite weak because they're so slow to expand and the eventual composition gets rocked by chargelot/archon/templar/immortal, but because they look like 111 all-in, P is forced to cut probes at 35-38 and either stop teching or tech colossi. So because 111 all-in is so strong and so common, against this build, P will usually sacrifice the economy lead that he should have due to T's late expansion, and P will either greatly delay tech or research the wrong tech.
The end result is that by nestling itself into a "fake 111 all-in" niche in the metagame, this build, which would be weak without the cover of 111 all-in, becomes very strong. 80% win rate isn't real tho. That's got a lot to do with people not knowing how to play against it.
Thanks for your input That reminds me, I should start letting my opponent see the factory more perhaps...
On April 07 2012 00:43 Naccer wrote: Is this build not all-in ish after your first push? U dont have any upgrades for your marine's except cshields/Stim No armory upgrades or marine upgrades.
How can u transition out of it ?
That's a good question. It's not all-innish as I make sure I have a 3rd prior to the timing engagement, as well as more production. It's more of a "production" based build, as opposed to an upgrade build if that makes sense. I almost always take out 15-25 of the opponents worker line, and then try to remax quicker, harass with banshee to "pin" opponent while remaxing. Here are some replays of games that go longer after timing engagement:
I think this build would fit me very well with some adjustments ( Taking faster 4th and upgrading Thors/marine's just a slight bit ) because I thinks its a bit to fragile without any upgrades so late in the game like u do.
Also why do u have 2 racks for so long when u can have a few more, ( U bank a lot of minerals ) I guess it because its hard to keep everything rolling
On April 07 2012 01:58 Naccer wrote: I think this build would fit me very well with some adjustments ( Taking faster 4th and upgrading Thors/marine's just a slight bit ) because I thinks its a bit to fragile without any upgrades so late in the game like u do.
Also why do u have 2 racks for so long when u can have a few more, ( U bank a lot of minerals ) I guess it because its hard to keep everything rolling
If you look at recent replays the min count is actually pretty tight. More than 2 racks before about 13-14 reduce's something, either supply depots or other production. Again I'll re-iterate, the goal of this build is to be able to out-max out-dps the opponent with tactical banshee timing attack and then major engage. Thanks for your feedback, and good luck!
On April 07 2012 00:43 Naccer wrote: Is this build not all-in ish after your first push? U dont have any upgrades for your marine's except cshields/Stim No armory upgrades or marine upgrades.
How can u transition out of it ?
That's a good question. It's not all-innish as I make sure I have a 3rd prior to the timing engagement, as well as more production. It's more of a "production" based build, as opposed to an upgrade build if that makes sense. I almost always take out 15-25 of the opponents worker line, and then try to remax quicker, harass with banshee to "pin" opponent while remaxing. Here are some replays of games that go longer after timing engagement:
You don't understand what he's saying. Marine Thor Banshee is very powerful in the midgame (which is when you push), but lategame, verses a 3-3 Protoss army, you will get absolutely crushed so yes, it is most definitely all-in and if they crush your first push, you simply cannot produce quickly enough to be able to put pressure back on your opponent (and I really hope you don't actually think mech armies can be reproduced quickly).
I'll spell it out a different way. You're putting ALLL of your resources into ARMY, and none into Tech (hello upgrades), such that you have a stronger army RIGHT now to kill your opponent NOW, because you don't have a followup plan if your first push fails.
I don't like this build that much because it completely relies on your opponent making mistakes or reacting poorly to your build (and not to mention it's less economical than 1rax fe), instead of you playing well. The reason why what jjakji did worked so well was because he rushed cloaked banshee, and pinned 6 stalkers and 2 observers to mana's base (and he also had a 50 to 1000ish lost advantage, which was huge). Your build does none of those things. Not to mention, relying on killing 15-25 probes every game verses protoss is just absurd - and again, they're the ones making the mistake of scouting poorly and not reacting AT all to what you're doing.
Watching these games: Game 1: He's floating 4000 resources (and to the readers, no, he is not even close to being maxed 200/200), and he still manages to clean up your push (despite attacking down his ramp on shakuras plateau into a terrible concave, with the stalkers blocking all of the chargelots). He ended up losing because he didn't know that chargelots suck when you engage through a chokepoint. I mean, you're playing against people who can't even spend their money. I really don't need to watch the rest of these games to understand why you have such a high win percentage against protoss.
So, how do you improve this build? Easy:
1. Rush cloaked banshees first to pin units and observers back to their base. 2. Expand at a decent timing, instead of somewhere in the middle where it doesn't make sense. 3. GET UPGRADES. I mean, not getting upgrades is such a stupid idea when you plan on going up to 3-4 bases. 4. Test it verses competent opponents. (Refer to game 1).
On April 07 2012 00:43 Naccer wrote: Is this build not all-in ish after your first push? U dont have any upgrades for your marine's except cshields/Stim No armory upgrades or marine upgrades.
How can u transition out of it ?
That's a good question. It's not all-innish as I make sure I have a 3rd prior to the timing engagement, as well as more production. It's more of a "production" based build, as opposed to an upgrade build if that makes sense. I almost always take out 15-25 of the opponents worker line, and then try to remax quicker, harass with banshee to "pin" opponent while remaxing. Here are some replays of games that go longer after timing engagement:
You don't understand what he's saying. Marine Thor Banshee is very powerful in the midgame (which is when you push), but lategame, verses a 3-3 Protoss army, you will get absolutely crushed so yes, it is most definitely all-in and if they crush your first push, you simply cannot produce quickly enough to be able to put pressure back on your opponent (and I really hope you don't actually think mech armies can be reproduced quickly).
I'll spell it out a different way. You're putting ALLL of your resources into ARMY, and none into Tech (hello upgrades), such that you have a stronger army RIGHT now to kill your opponent NOW, because you don't have a followup plan if your first push fails.
I don't like this build that much because it completely relies on your opponent making mistakes or reacting poorly to your build (and not to mention it's less economical than 1rax fe), instead of you playing well. The reason why what jjakji did worked so well was because he rushed cloaked banshee, and pinned 6 stalkers and 2 observers to mana's base (and he also had a 50 to 1000ish lost advantage, which was huge). Your build does none of those things. Not to mention, relying on killing 15-25 probes every game verses protoss is just absurd - and again, they're the ones making the mistake of scouting poorly and not reacting AT all to what you're doing.
Watching these games: Game 1: He's floating 4000 resources (and to the readers, no, he is not even close to being maxed 200/200), and he still manages to clean up your push (despite attacking down his ramp on shakuras plateau into a terrible concave, with the stalkers blocking all of the chargelots). He ended up losing because he didn't know that chargelots suck when you engage through a chokepoint. I mean, you're playing against people who can't even spend their money. I really don't need to watch the rest of these games to understand why you have such a high win percentage against protoss.
So, how do you improve this build? Easy:
1. Rush cloaked banshees first to pin units and observers back to their base. 2. Expand at a decent timing, instead of somewhere in the middle where it doesn't make sense. 3. GET UPGRADES. I mean, not getting upgrades is such a stupid idea when you plan on going up to 3-4 bases. 4. Test it verses competent opponents. (Refer to game 1).
No.. you don't understand! Lol. Please refer back to my many other comments. Thanks!
On April 07 2012 00:43 Naccer wrote: Is this build not all-in ish after your first push? U dont have any upgrades for your marine's except cshields/Stim No armory upgrades or marine upgrades.
How can u transition out of it ?
That's a good question. It's not all-innish as I make sure I have a 3rd prior to the timing engagement, as well as more production. It's more of a "production" based build, as opposed to an upgrade build if that makes sense. I almost always take out 15-25 of the opponents worker line, and then try to remax quicker, harass with banshee to "pin" opponent while remaxing. Here are some replays of games that go longer after timing engagement:
You don't understand what he's saying. Marine Thor Banshee is very powerful in the midgame (which is when you push), but lategame, verses a 3-3 Protoss army, you will get absolutely crushed so yes, it is most definitely all-in and if they crush your first push, you simply cannot produce quickly enough to be able to put pressure back on your opponent (and I really hope you don't actually think mech armies can be reproduced quickly).
I'll spell it out a different way. You're putting ALLL of your resources into ARMY, and none into Tech (hello upgrades), such that you have a stronger army RIGHT now to kill your opponent NOW, because you don't have a followup plan if your first push fails.
I don't like this build that much because it completely relies on your opponent making mistakes or reacting poorly to your build (and not to mention it's less economical than 1rax fe), instead of you playing well. The reason why what jjakji did worked so well was because he rushed cloaked banshee, and pinned 6 stalkers and 2 observers to mana's base (and he also had a 50 to 1000ish lost advantage, which was huge). Your build does none of those things. Not to mention, relying on killing 15-25 probes every game verses protoss is just absurd - and again, they're the ones making the mistake of scouting poorly and not reacting AT all to what you're doing.
Watching these games: Game 1: He's floating 4000 resources (and to the readers, no, he is not even close to being maxed 200/200), and he still manages to clean up your push (despite attacking down his ramp on shakuras plateau into a terrible concave, with the stalkers blocking all of the chargelots). He ended up losing because he didn't know that chargelots suck when you engage through a chokepoint. I mean, you're playing against people who can't even spend their money. I really don't need to watch the rest of these games to understand why you have such a high win percentage against protoss.
So, how do you improve this build? Easy:
1. Rush cloaked banshees first to pin units and observers back to their base. 2. Expand at a decent timing, instead of somewhere in the middle where it doesn't make sense. 3. GET UPGRADES. I mean, not getting upgrades is such a stupid idea when you plan on going up to 3-4 bases. 4. Test it verses competent opponents. (Refer to game 1).
No.. you don't understand! Lol. Please refer back to my many other comments. Thanks!
...
Should have expected this from you. Did you even read my post? I pointed out countless flaws with your build and ways to improve it, and this is how you respond? What a joke.
On April 04 2012 09:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I have had 100 win% with one base 111 against protos, why should I switch to weaker one?
Because one day, god help us for I dread the day, you may get out of bronze league on SEA.
i win with 111 against GM tosses on EU....
With a 100% win rate?
ofc not if i had 100% winrate TvP id probably be famous
im just saying 111 works at every skill level, the higher the skill level the better you need to tailor your build according to your scouting information
Have you ever experimented with getting one less starport, and using the money saved for a more aggressive 3rd timing and 1/1 upgrades for the marines? That way, when you make the attack, you may have fewer banshees, but your marines are stronger. AND if the attack fails, you can do a huge tech switch to MMM +stim and medivacs very quickly and attack again (perhaps doom-dropping his base??? ).
Just theory-crafting! Have a nice day; I will be sure to try this build out on the ladder!
On April 07 2012 00:43 Naccer wrote: Is this build not all-in ish after your first push? U dont have any upgrades for your marine's except cshields/Stim No armory upgrades or marine upgrades.
How can u transition out of it ?
That's a good question. It's not all-innish as I make sure I have a 3rd prior to the timing engagement, as well as more production. It's more of a "production" based build, as opposed to an upgrade build if that makes sense. I almost always take out 15-25 of the opponents worker line, and then try to remax quicker, harass with banshee to "pin" opponent while remaxing. Here are some replays of games that go longer after timing engagement:
You don't understand what he's saying. Marine Thor Banshee is very powerful in the midgame (which is when you push), but lategame, verses a 3-3 Protoss army, you will get absolutely crushed so yes, it is most definitely all-in and if they crush your first push, you simply cannot produce quickly enough to be able to put pressure back on your opponent (and I really hope you don't actually think mech armies can be reproduced quickly).
I'll spell it out a different way. You're putting ALLL of your resources into ARMY, and none into Tech (hello upgrades), such that you have a stronger army RIGHT now to kill your opponent NOW, because you don't have a followup plan if your first push fails.
I don't like this build that much because it completely relies on your opponent making mistakes or reacting poorly to your build (and not to mention it's less economical than 1rax fe), instead of you playing well. The reason why what jjakji did worked so well was because he rushed cloaked banshee, and pinned 6 stalkers and 2 observers to mana's base (and he also had a 50 to 1000ish lost advantage, which was huge). Your build does none of those things. Not to mention, relying on killing 15-25 probes every game verses protoss is just absurd - and again, they're the ones making the mistake of scouting poorly and not reacting AT all to what you're doing.
Watching these games: Game 1: He's floating 4000 resources (and to the readers, no, he is not even close to being maxed 200/200), and he still manages to clean up your push (despite attacking down his ramp on shakuras plateau into a terrible concave, with the stalkers blocking all of the chargelots). He ended up losing because he didn't know that chargelots suck when you engage through a chokepoint. I mean, you're playing against people who can't even spend their money. I really don't need to watch the rest of these games to understand why you have such a high win percentage against protoss.
So, how do you improve this build? Easy:
1. Rush cloaked banshees first to pin units and observers back to their base. 2. Expand at a decent timing, instead of somewhere in the middle where it doesn't make sense. 3. GET UPGRADES. I mean, not getting upgrades is such a stupid idea when you plan on going up to 3-4 bases. 4. Test it verses competent opponents. (Refer to game 1).
No.. you don't understand! Lol. Please refer back to my many other comments. Thanks!
...
Should have expected this from you. Did you even read my post? I pointed out countless flaws with your build and ways to improve it, and this is how you respond? What a joke.
Yes I did read your post, in its entirely. You're not pointing out anything particularly new though. I UNDERSTAND about upgrades expanding etc... I play standard too. The build has evolved based on what makes it successful as far as I what I have experienced. You point these things out but you don't use the build so how do you know!!
You're right, I am putting my resources into army. If I do upgrades and play for the long game, the first major engagement happens at a bad timing (when Protoss usually has 2/2 completed and more HT'son the field, with more energy in reserve). Part of what makes the build so successful is doing things NON-STANDARD - Protoss is rarely prepared for such a large army, coupled with the massive banshee attack on the main or third.
And I do have a follow-up. I throw down my third as I'm nearing max supply and resources allow, as well as several rax, a factory or two, and starports as resources are available. I then pin my opponent with cloaked banshee attacks while I remax, and usually I remax quicker than my opponent.
You say my build relies on my opponents making mistakes? Don't all games lol..
EDIT: Just wanted to mention, not trying to be rude! Just lots of people offer similar suggestions over and over, but I've played this build a lot and many different ways and this is what seems to work. I've introduced ghosts, more upgrades, early expansions etc and that always seems to make my attacks weaker or the timing later (when Protoss is stronger).
Only watched the replay vs. Haz and didn't read the entire thread, but the build seems really bumpy in terms of economy. You had really high mins to start then really high gas later. Think you should really try a 1-2 rax FE with more bunkers if you scout aggression. Plus you should try doing something with your banshees early w/ an earlier cloak. Forcing the Protoss to be defensive could really help you get your third up faster which was SUPER late in your game vs. Haz. Anyways gl with your build hope you get the kinks worked out.
On April 07 2012 06:32 The WingNut wrote: Good job Hammer! This build is pretty cool.
Have you ever experimented with getting one less starport, and using the money saved for a more aggressive 3rd timing and 1/1 upgrades for the marines? That way, when you make the attack, you may have fewer banshees, but your marines are stronger. AND if the attack fails, you can do a huge tech switch to MMM +stim and medivacs very quickly and attack again (perhaps doom-dropping his base??? ).
Just theory-crafting! Have a nice day; I will be sure to try this build out on the ladder!
Thanks man! Hmm that's actually a really interesting idea. The tech switch could be really good, especially if opponent does not go colloss. Build a bunch more rax swap them onto the starports TL's, and pump mmm.. I'll take a look at it! Gotta like theory-crafting
On April 07 2012 06:35 Apollo147 wrote: Only watched the replay vs. Haz and didn't read the entire thread, but the build seems really bumpy in terms of economy. You had really high mins to start then really high gas later. Think you should really try a 1-2 rax FE with more bunkers if you scout aggression. Plus you should try doing something with your banshees early w/ an earlier cloak. Forcing the Protoss to be defensive could really help you get your third up faster which was SUPER late in your game vs. Haz. Anyways gl with your build hope you get the kinks worked out.
The vids are older, and its much more refined now (as per the build order)! Appreciate the suggestions but it's working really well now and the timings are solid. Until I start losing lots with it, gonna keep it as is! Take a look at a few of the recent replays and you'll see what I mean. It's non-standard with intent
I agree with a lot of the points that ArtemisSC brought up. The upgrade disparity eventually makes it so that the exchanges vs the protoss becomes less and less favorable. Also, the production rate of gateway units is much higher than a mech-focused army. In the late game protoss can just keep trading with terran mech builds and remaxing much faster.
The point I would like to stress is that the build seems REALLY allinish during the first push. You are getting a third behind it, but you are too far behind in terms of production to catch up if the protoss doesn't die right there since gateway production will always win out in terms of speed.
On April 08 2012 02:51 CaptainHaz wrote: I agree with a lot of the points that ArtemisSC brought up. The upgrade disparity eventually makes it so that the exchanges vs the protoss becomes less and less favorable. Also, the production rate of gateway units is much higher than a mech-focused army. In the late game protoss can just keep trading with terran mech builds and remaxing much faster.
The point I would like to stress is that the build seems REALLY allinish during the first push. You are getting a third behind it, but you are too far behind in terms of production to catch up if the protoss doesn't die right there since gateway production will always win out in terms of speed.
I'm not denying they are valid points, just that is not the goal of the build. The idea is to have a larger army with HIGH DPS at the point of the timing engagement, and to reduce opponents economy by having an overwhelming banshee attack at main - which time and time again the opponent is ill-prepared for.
On April 08 2012 02:51 CaptainHaz wrote: I agree with a lot of the points that ArtemisSC brought up. The upgrade disparity eventually makes it so that the exchanges vs the protoss becomes less and less favorable. Also, the production rate of gateway units is much higher than a mech-focused army. In the late game protoss can just keep trading with terran mech builds and remaxing much faster.
The point I would like to stress is that the build seems REALLY allinish during the first push. You are getting a third behind it, but you are too far behind in terms of production to catch up if the protoss doesn't die right there since gateway production will always win out in terms of speed.
I'm not denying they are valid points, just that is not the goal of the build. The idea is to have a larger army with HIGH DPS at the point of the timing engagement, and to reduce opponents economy by having an overwhelming banshee attack at main - which time and time again the opponent is ill-prepared for.
Then why not just address them? You can abandon the macro component of this build and just say that at the 12 minute mark or so, I'm going to pull SCVs and go for a push. Taking a third behind such a do-or-die push doesn't make a lot of sense IMO since you are behind in upgrades and economy at that point as well as production rate. Dividing the army doesn't make much sense if you are just trying to cripple him and since your army is in a much stronger state when it's all together.
I think it makes more sense to either harass heavily with the banshees and try to even out the economy, behind which you can expand, OR just throw macro play in the trash and push for the win with a shitload of scvs for repairs at the timing you are indicating. The middle-of-the-road method you are adopting has too many weak points IMO, since your army is just really beefy but really slow to build.
On April 08 2012 02:51 CaptainHaz wrote: I agree with a lot of the points that ArtemisSC brought up. The upgrade disparity eventually makes it so that the exchanges vs the protoss becomes less and less favorable. Also, the production rate of gateway units is much higher than a mech-focused army. In the late game protoss can just keep trading with terran mech builds and remaxing much faster.
The point I would like to stress is that the build seems REALLY allinish during the first push. You are getting a third behind it, but you are too far behind in terms of production to catch up if the protoss doesn't die right there since gateway production will always win out in terms of speed.
I'm not denying they are valid points, just that is not the goal of the build. The idea is to have a larger army with HIGH DPS at the point of the timing engagement, and to reduce opponents economy by having an overwhelming banshee attack at main - which time and time again the opponent is ill-prepared for.
Then why not just address them? You can abandon the macro component of this build and just say that at the 12 minute mark or so, I'm going to pull SCVs and go for a push. Taking a third behind such a do-or-die push doesn't make a lot of sense IMO since you are behind in upgrades and economy at that point as well as production rate. Dividing the army doesn't make much sense if you are just trying to cripple him and since your army is in a much stronger state when it's all together.
I think it makes more sense to either harass heavily with the banshees and try to even out the economy, behind which you can expand, OR just throw macro play in the trash and push for the win with a shitload of scvs for repairs at the timing you are indicating. The middle-of-the-road method you are adopting has too many weak points IMO, since your army is just really beefy but really slow to build.
I actually rarely pull scv's anymore... not that many anyways, and its would make sense to harass more if my APM was high I also like that aspect of the often unexpected massive banshee attack. Anyways, appreciate your input and what you're saying.
On April 05 2012 22:09 shivver wrote: You're doing it wrong OP, I use the same composition but I open different and no I'm not sharing.
As others have said, you're not harassing at all, the protoss flies an obs in and will see the early armory and know right off the bat for the rest of the game what is up. He'll just macro since you're just sitting in your base chronoing w/e he wants.
I honestly can't believe you're winning with this like others have said which leads me to believe that toss still are up in arms about how to exactly respond to this build.
God, nice post. Nice sharing of your own build, you know how to imrprove it, but you don't even try to help us with your post. You are probably a pro , so if you share your knowledge you are afraid you are going to get demolished easy on tournaments. Take care friend, you don't want to lose your prizes!
Fine you want a little bite? Templar archives is your hint.. when you scout that coming up, it is decision time for many different things.
On April 05 2012 22:09 shivver wrote: You're doing it wrong OP, I use the same composition but I open different and no I'm not sharing.
As others have said, you're not harassing at all, the protoss flies an obs in and will see the early armory and know right off the bat for the rest of the game what is up. He'll just macro since you're just sitting in your base chronoing w/e he wants.
I honestly can't believe you're winning with this like others have said which leads me to believe that toss still are up in arms about how to exactly respond to this build.
God, nice post. Nice sharing of your own build, you know how to imrprove it, but you don't even try to help us with your post. You are probably a pro , so if you share your knowledge you are afraid you are going to get demolished easy on tournaments. Take care friend, you don't want to lose your prizes!
Fine you want a little bite? Templar archives is your hint.. when you scout that coming up, it is decision time for many different things.
How do you change your decision making based on scouting the archives?
On April 05 2012 22:09 shivver wrote: You're doing it wrong OP, I use the same composition but I open different and no I'm not sharing.
As others have said, you're not harassing at all, the protoss flies an obs in and will see the early armory and know right off the bat for the rest of the game what is up. He'll just macro since you're just sitting in your base chronoing w/e he wants.
I honestly can't believe you're winning with this like others have said which leads me to believe that toss still are up in arms about how to exactly respond to this build.
God, nice post. Nice sharing of your own build, you know how to imrprove it, but you don't even try to help us with your post. You are probably a pro , so if you share your knowledge you are afraid you are going to get demolished easy on tournaments. Take care friend, you don't want to lose your prizes!
Fine you want a little bite? Templar archives is your hint.. when you scout that coming up, it is decision time for many different things.
How do you change your decision making based on scouting the archives?
Few ways:
1.) Incorporate marauders into your mix. 2.) Incorporate ghosts into your mix. 3.) Force smaller engagements with units that are less susceptible to Psi Storm. 4.) Drop more and force him to be out of position while pushing his ancilary expansions.
You also need upgrades as mentioned before, and I feel like the main issue with your build is that you just are very stubborn in your ways. It's not very...flexible. You should be having very little gas but a lot of minerals with the build. You can use that for more orbitals and constant scanning/expanding.
On April 05 2012 22:09 shivver wrote: You're doing it wrong OP, I use the same composition but I open different and no I'm not sharing.
As others have said, you're not harassing at all, the protoss flies an obs in and will see the early armory and know right off the bat for the rest of the game what is up. He'll just macro since you're just sitting in your base chronoing w/e he wants.
I honestly can't believe you're winning with this like others have said which leads me to believe that toss still are up in arms about how to exactly respond to this build.
God, nice post. Nice sharing of your own build, you know how to imrprove it, but you don't even try to help us with your post. You are probably a pro , so if you share your knowledge you are afraid you are going to get demolished easy on tournaments. Take care friend, you don't want to lose your prizes!
Fine you want a little bite? Templar archives is your hint.. when you scout that coming up, it is decision time for many different things.
I'm sure whatever silver league ranking you claim to have really must back up the validity of your statements, but saying "if you see a templar archives you need to do something" is both vague and useless in terms of assisting the discussion.
In response to a templar archives I think it makes more sense to cut banshee production and swap to something like ghost marine or if you want to stick to non-bio try a gradual transition into BCs.
On April 05 2012 22:09 shivver wrote: You're doing it wrong OP, I use the same composition but I open different and no I'm not sharing.
As others have said, you're not harassing at all, the protoss flies an obs in and will see the early armory and know right off the bat for the rest of the game what is up. He'll just macro since you're just sitting in your base chronoing w/e he wants.
I honestly can't believe you're winning with this like others have said which leads me to believe that toss still are up in arms about how to exactly respond to this build.
God, nice post. Nice sharing of your own build, you know how to imrprove it, but you don't even try to help us with your post. You are probably a pro , so if you share your knowledge you are afraid you are going to get demolished easy on tournaments. Take care friend, you don't want to lose your prizes!
Fine you want a little bite? Templar archives is your hint.. when you scout that coming up, it is decision time for many different things.
How do you change your decision making based on scouting the archives?
Few ways:
1.) Incorporate marauders into your mix. 2.) Incorporate ghosts into your mix. 3.) Force smaller engagements with units that are less susceptible to Psi Storm. 4.) Drop more and force him to be out of position while pushing his ancilary expansions.
You also need upgrades as mentioned before, and I feel like the main issue with your build is that you just are very stubborn in your ways. It's not very...flexible. You should be having very little gas but a lot of minerals with the build. You can use that for more orbitals and constant scanning/expanding.
I was meaining in the context of my build/compostion.. but those are good points for standard mmmvg
On April 05 2012 22:09 shivver wrote: You're doing it wrong OP, I use the same composition but I open different and no I'm not sharing.
As others have said, you're not harassing at all, the protoss flies an obs in and will see the early armory and know right off the bat for the rest of the game what is up. He'll just macro since you're just sitting in your base chronoing w/e he wants.
I honestly can't believe you're winning with this like others have said which leads me to believe that toss still are up in arms about how to exactly respond to this build.
God, nice post. Nice sharing of your own build, you know how to imrprove it, but you don't even try to help us with your post. You are probably a pro , so if you share your knowledge you are afraid you are going to get demolished easy on tournaments. Take care friend, you don't want to lose your prizes!
Fine you want a little bite? Templar archives is your hint.. when you scout that coming up, it is decision time for many different things.
I'm sure whatever silver league ranking you claim to have really must back up the validity of your statements, but saying "if you see a templar archives you need to do something" is both vague and useless in terms of assisting the discussion.
In response to a templar archives I think it makes more sense to cut banshee production and swap to something like ghost marine or if you want to stick to non-bio try a gradual transition into BCs.
Transition into BC's!? That's a bold move... are you referring to something like this thread:
On April 05 2012 22:09 shivver wrote: You're doing it wrong OP, I use the same composition but I open different and no I'm not sharing.
As others have said, you're not harassing at all, the protoss flies an obs in and will see the early armory and know right off the bat for the rest of the game what is up. He'll just macro since you're just sitting in your base chronoing w/e he wants.
I honestly can't believe you're winning with this like others have said which leads me to believe that toss still are up in arms about how to exactly respond to this build.
God, nice post. Nice sharing of your own build, you know how to imrprove it, but you don't even try to help us with your post. You are probably a pro , so if you share your knowledge you are afraid you are going to get demolished easy on tournaments. Take care friend, you don't want to lose your prizes!
Fine you want a little bite? Templar archives is your hint.. when you scout that coming up, it is decision time for many different things.
I'm sure whatever silver league ranking you claim to have really must back up the validity of your statements, but saying "if you see a templar archives you need to do something" is both vague and useless in terms of assisting the discussion.
In response to a templar archives I think it makes more sense to cut banshee production and swap to something like ghost marine or if you want to stick to non-bio try a gradual transition into BCs.
Transition into BC's!? That's a bold move... are you referring to something like this thread:
On April 05 2012 22:09 shivver wrote: You're doing it wrong OP, I use the same composition but I open different and no I'm not sharing.
As others have said, you're not harassing at all, the protoss flies an obs in and will see the early armory and know right off the bat for the rest of the game what is up. He'll just macro since you're just sitting in your base chronoing w/e he wants.
I honestly can't believe you're winning with this like others have said which leads me to believe that toss still are up in arms about how to exactly respond to this build.
God, nice post. Nice sharing of your own build, you know how to imrprove it, but you don't even try to help us with your post. You are probably a pro , so if you share your knowledge you are afraid you are going to get demolished easy on tournaments. Take care friend, you don't want to lose your prizes!
Fine you want a little bite? Templar archives is your hint.. when you scout that coming up, it is decision time for many different things.
I'm sure whatever silver league ranking you claim to have really must back up the validity of your statements, but saying "if you see a templar archives you need to do something" is both vague and useless in terms of assisting the discussion.
In response to a templar archives I think it makes more sense to cut banshee production and swap to something like ghost marine or if you want to stick to non-bio try a gradual transition into BCs.
Transition into BC's!? That's a bold move... are you referring to something like this thread:
I'm just wondering why you would think BC's in response to HT's as they counter BC's with feedback...
For someone who uses a mass Thor/Banshee build, I am absolutely appalled that you would write off a units viability in tvp due to feedback.
If you think HT counters fucking BC with feedback, how do you justify using thors and banshees?
How did I "write it off"? Your logic is FLAWED. You need to relax and settle down little guy LOL, it was just a question. My using thors has nothing to do with asking how BC's are an appropriate counter to scouting HT tech. LOL
On April 05 2012 22:09 shivver wrote: You're doing it wrong OP, I use the same composition but I open different and no I'm not sharing.
As others have said, you're not harassing at all, the protoss flies an obs in and will see the early armory and know right off the bat for the rest of the game what is up. He'll just macro since you're just sitting in your base chronoing w/e he wants.
I honestly can't believe you're winning with this like others have said which leads me to believe that toss still are up in arms about how to exactly respond to this build.
God, nice post. Nice sharing of your own build, you know how to imrprove it, but you don't even try to help us with your post. You are probably a pro , so if you share your knowledge you are afraid you are going to get demolished easy on tournaments. Take care friend, you don't want to lose your prizes!
Fine you want a little bite? Templar archives is your hint.. when you scout that coming up, it is decision time for many different things.
I'm sure whatever silver league ranking you claim to have really must back up the validity of your statements, but saying "if you see a templar archives you need to do something" is both vague and useless in terms of assisting the discussion.
In response to a templar archives I think it makes more sense to cut banshee production and swap to something like ghost marine or if you want to stick to non-bio try a gradual transition into BCs.
Transition into BC's!? That's a bold move... are you referring to something like this thread:
I'm just wondering why you would think BC's in response to HT's as they counter BC's with feedback...
For someone who uses a mass Thor/Banshee build, I am absolutely appalled that you would write off a units viability in tvp due to feedback.
If you think HT counters fucking BC with feedback, how do you justify using thors and banshees?
How did I "write it off"? Your logic is FLAWED. You need to relax and settle down little guy LOL, it was just a question. My using thors has nothing to do with asking how BC's are an appropriate counter to scouting HT tech. LOL
You're the one who needs to calm down, with condescending statements, words in all caps, and defensive arguments. I'm not upset. I used a curse word and you assumed I'm frothing at the mouth ಠ_ಠ
I'm not trying to start an argument here, I just cannot believe that you can simultaneously argue that feedback doesn't hard counter your entire build, and then say that BC are not a good choice due to feedback. It's contradictory, especially since BC are far less susceptible to feedback than Thors and Banshees.
By the way, a much better reason for explaining why you can't transition to BC is that you don't have upgrades (because your build is an allin). A transition to BCs will not save you from any composition that defeats your initial push. It's not like the transition in the thread you posted because in that thread, the OP mentions that when you're playing standard MMMGV play you'll have started getting air upgrades and Starports anyway, which is why the transition can work.
I merely pointed out that instead of explaining the flaw using the good reasoning I posted above, you argued that feedback is the reason BCs will not work, which I find more hilarious than appalling now that you've gotten all defensive
On April 05 2012 22:09 shivver wrote: You're doing it wrong OP, I use the same composition but I open different and no I'm not sharing.
As others have said, you're not harassing at all, the protoss flies an obs in and will see the early armory and know right off the bat for the rest of the game what is up. He'll just macro since you're just sitting in your base chronoing w/e he wants.
I honestly can't believe you're winning with this like others have said which leads me to believe that toss still are up in arms about how to exactly respond to this build.
God, nice post. Nice sharing of your own build, you know how to imrprove it, but you don't even try to help us with your post. You are probably a pro , so if you share your knowledge you are afraid you are going to get demolished easy on tournaments. Take care friend, you don't want to lose your prizes!
Fine you want a little bite? Templar archives is your hint.. when you scout that coming up, it is decision time for many different things.
I'm sure whatever silver league ranking you claim to have really must back up the validity of your statements, but saying "if you see a templar archives you need to do something" is both vague and useless in terms of assisting the discussion.
In response to a templar archives I think it makes more sense to cut banshee production and swap to something like ghost marine or if you want to stick to non-bio try a gradual transition into BCs.
Transition into BC's!? That's a bold move... are you referring to something like this thread:
I'm just wondering why you would think BC's in response to HT's as they counter BC's with feedback...
For someone who uses a mass Thor/Banshee build, I am absolutely appalled that you would write off a units viability in tvp due to feedback.
If you think HT counters fucking BC with feedback, how do you justify using thors and banshees?
How did I "write it off"? Your logic is FLAWED. You need to relax and settle down little guy LOL, it was just a question. My using thors has nothing to do with asking how BC's are an appropriate counter to scouting HT tech. LOL
You're the one who needs to calm down, with condescending statements, words in all caps, and defensive arguments. I'm not upset. I used a curse word and you assumed I'm frothing at the mouth ಠ_ಠ
I'm not trying to start an argument here, I just cannot believe that you can simultaneously argue that feedback doesn't hard counter your entire build, and then say that BC are not a good choice due to feedback. It's contradictory, especially since BC are far less susceptible to feedback than Thors and Banshees.
By the way, a much better reason for explaining why you can't transition to BC is that you don't have upgrades (because your build is an allin). A transition to BCs will not save you from any composition that defeats your initial push. It's not like the transition in the thread you posted because in that thread, the OP mentions that when you're playing standard MMMGV play you'll have started getting air upgrades and Starports anyway, which is why the transition can work.
I merely pointed out that instead of explaining the flaw using the good reasoning I posted above, you argued that feedback is the reason BCs will not work, which I find more hilarious than appalling now that you've gotten all defensive
Ummm ya.. I think you're one of those nerdtards lookin for a fight on forums.. look at your other posts on this thread alone YOU need to RELAX (in caps). What he said was nothing to do with my build and I was just looking for an explanation on why BC's are something to produce in order to counter discovered HT tech. Get a life nerd.
How can you call someone a nerd as an insult when you are on a forum site talking about a video game, displaying your multiple youtube videos (and youtube channel) where you explain your strategies for that video game? You've meticulously prepared a build order and tested it over the course of what I can only assume is a large number of games and written a guide to share it with others, and you're calling me a nerd? Are you fucking serious?
And you still haven't addressed my point, you've just been trolling. That's not to mention the shameless attention whoring you've been doing by bumping your thread every couple of days when it disappears off the front page of the strategy forum. What a joke.
Now, would you like to address my point about feedback and explain why it counters BCs but not Thors or Banshees, or would you like to keep acting like a child?
On April 11 2012 04:15 crocodile wrote: How can you call someone a nerd as an insult when you are on a forum site talking about a video game, displaying your multiple youtube videos (and youtube channel) where you explain your strategies for that video game? You've meticulously prepared a build order and tested it over the course of what I can only assume is a large number of games and written a guide to share it with others, and you're calling me a nerd? Are you fucking serious?
And you still haven't addressed my point, you've just been trolling. That's not to mention the shameless attention whoring you've been doing by bumping your thread every couple of days when it disappears off the front page of the strategy forum. What a joke.
Now, would you like to address my point about feedback and explain why it counters BCs but not Thors or Banshees, or would you like to keep acting like a child?
It is a counter, among many, to Thors and Banshees, I was asking the other poster why BC would be the response to scouting HT's. Why are you so obsessed little guy... LOL
On April 11 2012 04:15 crocodile wrote: How can you call someone a nerd as an insult when you are on a forum site talking about a video game, displaying your multiple youtube videos (and youtube channel) where you explain your strategies for that video game? You've meticulously prepared a build order and tested it over the course of what I can only assume is a large number of games and written a guide to share it with others, and you're calling me a nerd? Are you fucking serious?
And you still haven't addressed my point, you've just been trolling. That's not to mention the shameless attention whoring you've been doing by bumping your thread every couple of days when it disappears off the front page of the strategy forum. What a joke.
On April 11 2012 04:25 Strumpsven wrote: I do not like OP's behaviour in this thread, even if the build is somewhat decent.
OP is obviously not reading the posts in his own thread. And on the contrary.. a protoss in master that floats 4k minerals.
Are you sure you are in masters?
Well to be honest, he's mid masters, at best, playing trashy protoss players with a fluke build. Don't be too hateful at him. I watched a few of the reps, and they were just insanely bad players. He uses a game against a diamond protoss as the 'example'
He defends it to the death, and habitually self bumps to make sure his thread is on the front page. When he played a good protoss (haz) and got crushed, he blamed it on the 'you know what I was going to do' hence it's a ladder build, or a BOx series build.
I wouldn't make it standard, but it isn't to be written off, at least, by any means.
On April 11 2012 04:25 Strumpsven wrote: I do not like OP's behaviour in this thread, even if the build is somewhat decent.
OP is obviously not reading the posts in his own thread. And on the contrary.. a protoss in master that floats 4k minerals.
God-forbid posters stands up for themselves to dorks on forum
Thanks for the bump & check the replays for non-floating 4k min opponents
=) putting a smile =) every third line =) doesn't make your awful post any less awful =) or self bumping like =) The only person standing up for this is you, if anyone else says a cross word you just look past it, and go right for personal accusations.
On April 11 2012 04:25 Strumpsven wrote: I do not like OP's behaviour in this thread, even if the build is somewhat decent.
OP is obviously not reading the posts in his own thread. And on the contrary.. a protoss in master that floats 4k minerals.
Are you sure you are in masters?
Not to mention, 80% win rate is a joke of all jokes. 300-295 record at 590 or so points masters. That means your TvT and TvZ must be GOD AWFUL if you REALLY have an 80% win ratio. Why don't you sc2 gears your last 595 games, and take your real win rate, and show that instead of lying.
A lot of my games are builds I'm trying for my channel. Even though I play a fair amount I don't take the game, or little nerds like you, too seriously (the old double wink). I have some ridiculous builds that I use, and I play them on ladder for fun. I'm not that good! I have lower apm, I'm between diamond/masters level. And even then.. who gives a sh** lol. It's a game buds. Stop bein a little online creeper.. lol.
I'm sorry to be so rude, but just reading through this last page is just awful. You're not at all trying to TALK about strategy, just jump down peoples throats. Doing nothing but calling people names, and attacking peoples character when they say something cross or want an answer to YOUR strategy page. You need to revamp your image, and the way you treat people before coming back to TL and talking strategy.
On April 11 2012 04:25 Strumpsven wrote: I do not like OP's behaviour in this thread, even if the build is somewhat decent.
OP is obviously not reading the posts in his own thread. And on the contrary.. a protoss in master that floats 4k minerals.
Are you sure you are in masters?
Not to mention, 80% win rate is a joke of all jokes. 300-295 record at 590 or so points masters. That means your TvT and TvZ must be GOD AWFUL if you REALLY have an 80% win ratio. Why don't you sc2 gears your last 595 games, and take your real win rate, and show that instead of lying.
A lot of my games are builds I'm trying for my channel. Even though I play a fair amount I don't take the game, or little nerds like you, too seriously (the old double wink). I have some ridiculous builds that I use, and I play them on ladder for fun. I'm not that good! I have lower apm, I'm between diamond/masters level. And even then.. who gives a sh** lol. It's a game buds. Stop bein a little online creeper.. lol. (nerd voice) iamjeffrey: "Hmm I'm gonna check his profile, now I'm gonna check some stats, hmmm now I'm gonna write a short story, cause I'm angry and life outside my computers sux."
wasnt there a build like this like a year ago? I remember painuser was the one that was first experiement with thor banshee composition since with +1 upgrade, Thor can 1 shot observer and once the observer is gone, cloak banshee just tear everything apart. Although, the life of this build didnt live that long because HT completely crap on it once protoss learned how to use HT. I still feel that that is the case and if you look at some real REAL old MLG video, there are some pros doing a similar form of this build.
Seriously OP? This is your post and you are going to continue to degrade it? Even if people are talking back, you shouldnt be provoking them to farther degrade your tread. You are posting this thread to try and get better to be aware of your build right? Your credibility drop quiet a bit imo from your action. Lets try and keep this civil guys.
I never thought I'd be agreeing with IamJeffrey after that fight we had earlier, but holy shit man, I made a light criticism and you jumped all over me. You're really destroying all of the credibility you might have had, and pissing everybody off by calling people who disagree with you 'nerd' as though it's a bad thing.
You're on Teamliquid. If you're not a nerd, what the fuck are you doing here?
On April 11 2012 04:56 Strumpsven wrote:
And there it went down the toilet, my respect for the OP!
I'm out of here..
(I'm a nerd.. indeed.. and F*ing proud over that.)
Threads like this are why people dont take stategy forums seriously? It always nice looking for something new someone is coming up with but this doesn't make sense to me.
On April 11 2012 09:07 aznkukuboi wrote: Hammer is now in diamond, I wonder if he still has the credibility. I still lose to 1-1-1 like redic amount as toss. I can't defend it.