I’m RemarK, top masters Protoss on the NA server, here with another PvZ guide (another all-in, by the way). I promise I’ll start sharing more macro-oriented guides as well soon – I’m still relatively new to the whole guides area of SC2, so for now I’m just sticking to easier to write guides (i.e. all-ins!). This one is a build I invented myself, inspired by some of HuK’s gameplay, designed to punish the current ZvP metagame of 3 gasless hatcheries with a mass zealot attack before the 8:00 mark. For now, I’m calling this the Zealot Dance Party. If you do come up with a name I like more, please share and I’ll update this post with your improved name and credit you obviously! :D
You might ask, “RemarK, why is it called the Zealot Dance Party?”
This build is something I came up with after doing a lot of thinking about the current PvZ metagame of FFE vs gasless 3rd into 12-minute roach-ling max. While watching the MLG Winter Arena, I saw HuK do a very strange 9-gate attack vs Liquid’Ret, in the 3rd game of their series. You can view this game, if you are so inclined, here:
Anyways, the crux of HuK’s strategy with this 9-gate attack was warping in TONS of zealots everywhere and preventing the roaches from ever hitting a critical mass. At first I was expecting such a simple strategy to fall flat on its face – roach ling usually is pretty cost-effective at dealing with gateway all-ins, right? To my surprise, however, Ret got overrun as HuK warped in zealots everywhere – the standard gas + roach warren timings for Zerg didn’t seem adequate at defending such insane, multi-pronged aggression. Important to note also is that HuK focused on hitting hard and fast – he used his first warp-ins to take down as many queens + drones mining gas as possible. This subtle move wound up crippling Ret’s production, and Ret was left producing very small clumps of roaches + lings that were quickly overrun. As his roach numbers dwindled due to lacking gas and larva for continuous production, HuK’s zealot numbers continued growing and growing. A minute or two later, Ret was only able to afford small clumps of lings at a time and shortly afterwards was forced to GG out when those got cleaned up by the zealots with ease.
Anyways, one thing I noticed at the time was that HuK’s resource allocation didn’t seem entirely optimal for this attack – specifically, he mined more gas than he was able to spend. 9 gates and an early probe production cut means that you’re essentially all-in – so why even bother mining gas at all? What if we took the core idea of this build but boiled it down to its most basic element and focused on hitting hard, hitting fast, and hitting efficiently in order to punish the current metagame of Zerg players taking a gasless 3rd hatch in response to an FFE?
The resulting build I came up with consists of mining only 200 gas (100 for the +1 attack upgrade, 50 for warp tech, and 50 for a stalker), hits before the 8 minute mark, and has around an 80%-90% winrate vs GM and professional players on the NA ladder (I know it’s a cliché to include winrates in such a guide, but I wanted to emphasize that the build is rather successful versus relatively skilled players), even GM’s who I had already done the build to.
The infrastructure for this guide is very simple – you’ll be FFe’ing into a very strong all-in, producing off of 10 gates starting between the 7:40-8:00 mark (depending on how well the build is being executed – even I get a decent amount of variance in my games, the biggest factors for how fast the build hits are how quickly you get your gateways down and how many times you chronoboost warp tech once you are done making probes and chronoboosting your stalker out). You’ll be warping in zealots exclusively of course. As with my last build, saturation is very important – you need to be sure you wind up with 16 probes per mineral field at each of your bases. I recommend hitting 16 probes in your main base before rallying your main nexus to your natural expansion – this has always seemed to provide the smoothest income and most natural way to manage your economy to me.If saturation is a relatively new concept to you, please feel free to check out the paragraphs on saturation in the “Infrastructure” section of my previous guide:
Like most PvZ builds, we start off with a standard forge fast expansion (FFE). There’s a few stylistic differences in how people FFE, so don’t feel like you have to use my version of the build – it’s just the version I’m most comfortable with / think is best right now.
9 pylon (@ low-ground) – Scout with the probe that builds this pylon.
13/14 forge (chronoboost probes twice, then build forge) – If it’s a 4-player map AND your first scout hasn’t figured out where the Zerg lives, you need to scout with this probe also in case he’s 6 or 7 pooling.
@25 Nexus Energy: Chronoboost probes again (this will be your 3rd chronoboost on probes)
17 Nexus (you should’ve scouted the Zerg, if he’s early pooling [anything faster than an 11 pool] you might need to either drop a pylon + cannon in your main mineral line or rush to complete the wall before building the nexus, thus abandoning this build. Additionally, if he is taking a gas, I probably wouldn’t recommend this build – the goal of this build is to punish gasless Zerg, so it wouldn’t make sense to do this build in that scenario)
17 Cannon
17 Gateway
17 Pylon (Note: the cannon + gateway + pylon should either complete your sim city and leave you with a 1-hex hole that can be plugged by a probe or zealot, or on maps with wide-ramps like Antiga set you up to complete your sim city when you add the cyber core)
*Build a probe*
18 2x Assimilator (I like to build these with the probe that made the 17 pylon, and then use my scouting probe to plug the wall when he gets home)
*Pylon finishes, your supply should be 18/26 now*
Chronoboost probes (constant chronoboost, constant probe production!), put workers on gas when the assimilators finish, etc
*Nexus finishes, Gateway finishes*
Build your cyber core
@100 gas – Start +1 ground attack upgrade at forge
@~70 gas. It’s time to start pulling probes off gas – the easiest way to do this is just bounce between geyseys, select 1-2 probes at a time, and move command them to the side of your nexus away from your mineral field. Once you have all 6 out, make them deposit any gas they’re still holding and transfer them to your natural expansion – you should have 16 probes in your main mineral line already.
Make sure to rally both nexus to your natural mineral fields, and make sure to count your probes so you stop at 16 probes per base (32 total).
@Cybernetics core completion: start warpgate research, and chronoboost out a stalker! After starting the stalker, build a pylon someplace in your main – your supply should be approaching 36/36 (you want to have 32 probes mining, 16 per base, your stalker, and one or two probes to build proxies with – it’s ok to be off on your saturation with an extra probe or two, just make sure you aren’t undersaturated), this pylon is not to build supply but for making a gateway flower, so make sure you build it someplace where the entire pylon radius can be utilized.
Pictured: Gateway flower (also, one hell of an Artosis pylon)
This is the part where the build gets a little bit tricky – your stalker pops out, you need to send it on the map to do two things – first, scare off Zerglings from the watchtower and clear a path for your probe and second, confirm that the Zerg is not doing a roach-ling all-in. If your stalker scouts roach-ling all-in, just drop a ton of cannons, make a tight wall-off, and with a little bit of crisis control and microing your macro, you should be able to hold. I would probably resume gas mining as soon as I saw no 3rd and no creep spread (creep spread = he is using his queen energy on things besides inject, or built an extra queen probably not an all-in coming your way in either of those cases) and just play a macro game or go for a more standard 2-base timing to follow-up a failed roach-ling.
While that’s going on and you’re taking map control with your stalker, you want to be adding gateways like a mad man – you’re going up to 10 gateways total, and usually I build the extra 9 gateways all around that one pylon (it’s optional to spread the gates around, but since both of your first two pylons are on the low-ground by your wall, there’s not always a ton of space there. If you do split the gates and have space, I’d probably build 3 in the main and the rest on the low-ground). It’s very important to add gateways ASAP when you have the money – this is one of the biggest factors towards hitting on time, and can be the difference between awkwardly sitting at a proxy pylon waiting for gates to finish or having 10 zealots warping in as the Zerg’s brain explodes.
You’re going to want to build 2-5 proxy pylons, depending on the map, and how many different angles of attack are available to you. Generally, I find 3 to be totally sufficient on most maps (TDA is a bit of a special case, you might want to build 4 on TDA, 2 by the Zerg’s third and 2 by his natural). With these pylons, you want to spread them out far enough that you can warp zealots close to his natural, close to his 3rd, and in between the two. Here’s a sample pylon set-up on Shakuras Plateau:
Pictured: Top pylon close to his natural, middle pylon between his 3rd and nat…
Pictured: …and bottom pylon very close to his 3rd.
Your warp tech should be 80-90% done as you start planting down the proxy pylons – as soon as warp tech finishes, morph your gates and start warping in zealots. I recommend splitting your first group of zealots about 50-50 (4-5 to his nat, 5-6 to his 3rd). If he has roaches and spines already in place at one base, pull those zealots back and send them to the other base to force the roaches away from that spine. You can send a new hit squad of zealots to the old, previously well-defended base with your next warp cycle.
Keep your zealots spread out with each subsequent warp cycle until you either kill all the drones + queens + static defense at a base – then, you can just leave a few zealots there to clean up any spawning units from that hatch and bring the rest to the next target. This build is the PvZ equivalent of a groin punch – you’re making stupid amounts of zealots, and putting them everywhere the Zerg does not want them to be. Make sure your zealots don’t get kited endless by a pack of roaches – let’s say we have 12 zealots chasing 8 roaches in a circle. That’s no good – they’ll die inefficiently and we’re not putting the maximum amount of pressure on the Zerg that we could. Instead, move command 4 of those zealots to the nearest mineral line. Then, the Zerg has to keep microing his roaches while also keeping his drones alive against the zealots. 4 zealots work through a field of drones incredibly fast, and even if he is forced to transfer, your work is done – he’s not mining from that field and is losing a lot of income. Also, try and focus down any drones mining gas with harassing zealots – if you can force the Zerg to not make roaches because he has no gas, you’ve already won the game.
Lastly, remember, this is an all-in: don’t make probes back home, do use extra chronoboost on your warp-gates between cycles, and don’t expect to transition out of this build if it fails. Even if you kill his 3rd hatch, if he can defend his natural and main while keeping 40~ drones or more, he’s way, way ahead of you. In order to even consider transitioning, you’d have to kill two of his mining bases and probably 30-40 drones. If at that point he somehow gets enough roaches to stabilize, just go home, drop a few cannons, resume gas mining + probe production, and go for a any standard 2-base all-in as a follow-up timing attack. He should be far enough behind from losing so many workers and hatches that he won’t be able to hold it.
Queen sniping: Queens are the most important units to kill early on, without inject larva, Zerg’s production becomes laughably stunted. Snipe them whenever you get the chance, but don’t ever lose excessive zealots trying to chase down a Queen. Zealots are better used chasing roaches than Queens because then the Zerg has to constantly stutter-step in order to keep the roaches alive, rather than queuing up move commands for the Queen.
Pictured: The importance of sniping Queens
Tricking the Zerg: At higher levels, tricking the Zerg can be more important than just cleanly executing the build. I try to always be aware of where overlords could be coming from, scout for their positions around the corners of my base with a probe, and if necessary, use the stalker to deny scouting. Additionally, if an overlord is on a flight path towards your main once you’ve pulled off gas, you can temporarily resume mining gas in order to prevent him from seeing that you weren’t mining gas. A truly gosu Zerg will count on the assimilator and see how much gas you’ve mined, but I don’t think 99.999% of the players on NA ladder, even at the highest level, have that kind of awareness and intelligence. Don’t worry about stuff like this until you can execute the build decently well, are comfortable with the timings and ideas behind it, and have a good feel for the Zealot micro involved.
vs xLsOdiN (GM – he does a hatch-block forcing a slightly non-standard opening out of me, but it transitions fine into the normal all-in, we played twice in a row and I did this build both times and won both times – even though he built 4 spinecrawlers and units pre-emptively this game without taking a 3rd): http://drop.sc/157173
vs ClashZaiZai (GM, one of the few players who held it off – he scouted me not mining gas and reacted by building lots of spines, I think I could have broke him if I executed and micro’d better; I lost many zealots for free unfortunately): http://drop.sc/157176
This build is still very young and has plenty of potential for being refined. As a full-time college student, I don't have as much time as I'd like to test things out rigorously, so here's a few things I've been considering and I invite anyone interested to test these out and share their experiences in this thread:
-Instead of taking 2 assimilators, just take 1! This might be a more logical thing to do, given how little gas we're mining. Downside is it's slightly less subtle than building both assimilators and pulling probes off of them.
-In line with the above, try taking only 1-gas but don't pull probes off of it - would the potential of a sentry or stalker with your warp cycles be worth the investment? What would be more useful, an early sentry for guardian shield later or warping in a few stalkers with your first warp cycle and microing them throughout the battle?
-Is 10 gates even the optimal number? I've had games where I used 12 gates and it still worked beautifully. I genuinely have no clue what the best number is, maybe 12 is even better because it would make your first two warp-ins exceptionally strong - however, the obvious drawback is you'll run out of steam faster and you are investing in even more production that you won't be able to sustain for very long?
-That's all I have for now, but if you guys come up with any questions or points you'd like me to include, I'd be happy to add it up here! Just send me a PM and I'll update this post.
I’m RemarK.406 on the NA server, a top masters Protoss who comes from a FPS background (Halo specifically) with no RTS experience prior to SC2. Feel free to message me on TL (soLremarK), reddit (mmkramer), or battle.net with any feedback or thoughts about my guides. I also stream tournament and ladder games at http://www.twitch.tv/tsremark , often with commentary as well. Lastly, I have also just today released a replay pack consisting of ~170 ladder and tournament games versus GM players, professionals, and other top masters players (there’s also a sub-folder containing 15 of the best games). You can grab the replay pack here:
Many thanks for these builds! Even as a GM tos, I started using your 2 base immortal timing and my PvZ win rate is flawless now. I can't wait to try this on the ladder. Once I do I will post feedback.
You seem to like all ins, same here. Have any favorites vs terran? I like my form of the immortal all in, but its getting iffy vs pure marine builds ==
Interesting - I'm Z, so this is bad news to me if it interferes with my 4-minute dronegasm
Can you talk a little bit about counters, and what the build fails to? One of the players in your replays held it off with spines - can you elaborate a bit on that and talk about the optimal way to deal with it?
I mean, obviously I'd want to know as a zerg, but I'm sure some toss users of the build will want to know what kills it as well.
Assuming that the Zerg is not braindead, wouldn't it be terribly easy to delay lingspeed+lair to get out 8 roaches? Since your Stalker is almost demanded on the field to get the watchtowers, isn't a standard overlord scout going to see absolutely everything?
The all in is definitively powerful, especially if spread out, but I don't see Zergs being unable to respond to this.
I've been doing this build a few months ago when I saw vilestate do it on his stream. It's extremely potent but it can be shut down hard if it gets scouted by ovie. With only 1 stalker it's really hard to deny scouting from a good Zerg, but most zergs don't scout properly and i can kill zergs a lot better than me with this build =)
On April 10 2012 16:05 Josh_rakoons wrote: Do you think delaying the all in for the sake of upgrading charge would be better? for example, skip the +1 and go for an immediate twilight council.
Twilight Council + Charge would be at least another 2 minutes (not sure exact times, but that number felt good getting pulled out of my ass). If you delay the attack that long , then you would be letting 3-base production hit full swing, and you would get overrun by mass speed roaches. Not to mention that without +1, lings would be relatively cost efficient against spread out zealots.
Lol I just tried this on ladder - it was surprisingly effective... the quickest, easiest win in a pvz I've had in a long time. I applaud this build, and its creator(s).
@Josh_rakoons,
I'm not sure, but I think the twilight council would take more time- it's so easy just to grab the weapons upgrade since the forge is already there. Not to mention- what would charge really add to the attack? The primary threat at this point is speedlings- plus one attack makes your zealots supremely effective against them.
So really, I guess I just don't know if the added cost and time would be worth the questionable benefit.
I don't have the ability to watch the replays atm, but what time on the game clock does your first warp in hit? I'd imagine its somewhere around 8:10 or so.
I like the idea of punishing the zerg, but I feel the all-in may be a little too severe. I want to know your thoughts on why you choose this build over a huk 8 gate? When I play the 8 gate I usually have 2 probes in each gas until the gates go down, then go up to 3 on each geyser.
Usually can get my first warp-in cycle between 8:30-8:40, and that is a much stronger attack imo, since its a combination of zealots and stalkers, and you have the options to follow up those warp ins with sentries if you wish. I suppose the question is that extra tech and unit composition worth the extra time? It seems to me like the 8 gate would be significantly stronger against the typical 7-8 roaches the zerg will be building around the 8 minute mark.
Edit: Also the 8 gate gives you a much better chance to transition if your attack fails. You don't need to do nearly as much damage.
I've been doing a streamlined version via nexus first with a 7:20 warpin off 7gates with +1 finishing around 7:50. The extra time is crucial. It results in ridiculously easy wins against GM zergs up to about rank 20 when they don't know what's about to hit them. Several top 20 GM zergs were able to hold off (my variant of) this build. For zergs, don't worry it's a pretty easy build to counter if scouted. The tell: Constant chrono on the core & 3:15-3:30 gate. The response: Get a 6:30 warren, and be very active with lings to deny probes on the map. Forcing an extra probe travel time + pylon construction time gives you ~25-45 extra seconds to consolidate roaches that you have been producing for longer than he expects. He cannot back out of the 7gate, 3gas, +1 version and there is absolutely no way he can back out of the variant in the OP. This means if you win the battle, you win the game. Kite the zealots with mass roach on creep. Run up next to stalkers after the zealots are dead so they cannot retreat. If you have to fight in several locations, pull hurt roaches back in the smaller engagements so the zealots that he has on auto pilot mindlessly target new ones. It's a good protoss build for a best of X series and thus has a place on the ladder, but after it becomes more widely known (darn you remark) it will, like the Lobber build, no longer be viable at high levels of play.
seems like a good build indeed but only making zealots seems like a 1 hit thing, maybe mine some gas with 1 or 2 probes on both assimilators for some later stalkers>?
On April 10 2012 15:31 Yezman wrote: Many thanks for these builds! Even as a GM tos, I started using your 2 base immortal timing and my PvZ win rate is flawless now. I can't wait to try this on the ladder. Once I do I will post feedback.
You seem to like all ins, same here. Have any favorites vs terran? I like my form of the immortal all in, but its getting iffy vs pure marine builds ==
If you are looking for a good allin against terran marine builds, look at the 1 gate fe into 6 gate pressure. The execution is fairly simple, just execute a standard MC style 1 gate fe (or any fast expand build you like really) and if you scout a gasless expand, don't drop the robo. Go up to two gas in your main with 16 on minerals and rally your nexii to your natural. At around 45-50 supply drop three extra gates, somewhere hidden is best, or split them up (for example on Antiga I like to put them at my third) and as you saturate your natural minerals with 16 probes, pressure at around 9 minutes with a ton of zealot sentry stalker, If you hit your timings and don't get slowed down by early aggression, it can be absolutely deadly. Against gasless terrans, i'd say I have about an 80% win rate with it.
I might even write a guide on it.
On Topic:
I always feel like these zealot attacks are thwarted so easily by zerg. When ever I try go for a 4-6 gate +1 zealot timing, the zerg has his roaches there and waiting, right at 8 minutes as I warp in, even with a third base, the problem I see is if a zerg is active with denying pylons and delays the pressure by even a small amount of time, they will reach a mass of roaches that can defeat waves easily, and just power up and kill you. Will definitely have to try this variation of the zealot pressure though.
On April 10 2012 18:17 blacklist_member wrote: What if the zerg goes muta? Doesn't this leave you really vulnerable to mutas?
This build hits around 8 Minutes, even if the Zerg rushes for Mutas he should not have them ready. And then it still takes mutas a good time to kill zealots. You should have time to put guys back in gas and mix in Stalkers to finish him off.
On April 10 2012 18:17 blacklist_member wrote: What if the zerg goes muta? Doesn't this leave you really vulnerable to mutas?
This build hits just before the 8 minute mark. Which Zerg already has Mutas at that point? If they rush for Mutas to get them out at 8 minutes, you should be able to scout the very early gas and react accordingly.
I definitely agree with the waste of time comment. Spend 10 minutes macroing, all this to have the game decided in 30 seconds by an all-in, it's very frustrating. At least when you're bunker rushed it doesn't take 15 minutes to get a silly loss.
Anyway it looks good (if you want to all-in). I think from the Zerg perspective once you recognise it's an all-in you might as well let one base go and try to save the others, which should be possible with good micro and a 7:20-ish roach warren. Saving the queens should be the priority, but it's not that easy. It looks really hard to defend for how easy it is to execute.
I don't recommend the TLO replay (mass upgraded speedling build - it hit before the upgrades... ouch) and the Odin replay (early failed aggression, no roach warren). The vVvToXSiK replay probably gives the best idea of what it should be like.
Other than that nice guide, time to learn how to play against it as I suspect it's going to get popular!
I have been using a variation of this build a very long time...but 8min 9gate with warp prism (and can even using a second warp prism to multi prong like a beast..), just target down tech buildings etc, especially if you see muta tech. Diamond player beating masters with this build. Shame you posted this xD..now zerg will adapt.
PS: The build variation i use always hits before 2base muta timing..and i played tons of games with that build for months..
First time I played vs this and totally caught me off guard, expected a more standard 2base allin and I thought it was a 4gate but saw my roaches started dying left and right. Good way to take off games in a bo series vs someone who is lazy with scouting
Mass gate attacks with few gas are really good but there is just no point in STOPPING to mine gas. If you continue to mine the gas (or just let two stay in gas for optimal gathering) you can make a zealot/stalker mix which is much better then pure zealot. Stalkers are a far more efficient use of warpgate build time then zealots are, in other words if you're making a high fraction of stalkers you won't be needing 10!!!! gates (which is a complete waste of money) but you can do with just 6. If you have 32 probes mining minerals and 4 to 6 on gas 6 gates is more then enough to have some overproduction, the 450-600 minerals you save can be put into units which makes the push much stronger. A zealot/stalker mix is also much better then pure zealots because you have something to micro and kite with. Pure zealots won't kill queens or roaches well if the zerg just micro's a little, you need stalkers to do that..
If you change this build but instead keep mining gas with 4 to 6 probes the build is strictly better. Only in the case of pure lings for defense would pure zealot be slightly better then zealot/stalker. The thing is though: if they go for pure lings you win anyway because +1 zealots massacre them, you need to have stalkers to deal with roaches which is their only way to stop a rush like this (unless they stay on 2 base and make a huge spine wall).
Also your FFE build is odd, you're making the cannon way too early. In case you scout them right away 16 nex - 16 forge - 17 pylon - 17 gate - 18 cannon, is far better. The third chrono on your nexus is also just a waste.. you're mining like 5 minerals more only because you boost right into a probe cut. Overall the build can just be made much more efficient.
On April 10 2012 19:56 Markwerf wrote: Also your FFE build is odd, you're making the cannon way too early. In case you scout them right away 16 nex - 16 forge - 17 pylon - 17 gate - 18 cannon, is far better. The third chrono on your nexus is also just a waste.. you're mining like 5 minerals more only because you boost right into a probe cut. Overall the build can just be made much more efficient.
While not my personal preference either, his ffe build is pretty standard.
On April 10 2012 19:56 Markwerf wrote: Also your FFE build is odd, you're making the cannon way too early. In case you scout them right away 16 nex - 16 forge - 17 pylon - 17 gate - 18 cannon, is far better. The third chrono on your nexus is also just a waste.. you're mining like 5 minerals more only because you boost right into a probe cut. Overall the build can just be made much more efficient.
While not my personal preference either, his ffe build is pretty standard.
The cannon is needlessly early, you can put the cannon after second pylon and gate on any map where the hole in the wall is easily plugged, pretty sure that's standard for most maps
I think that this is a really easy build to hold off as zerg. This build is the exact reason i put my roach warren at the same time as my 3 gases (at 44 food or around 6:30). Roaches pop out exactly when the warpgate finishes and you can cleanly defend your 2nd and 3rd by killing any warpgate units. If the protoss persists on warping, i'd just mass roach while adding a few drones here and there and waiting for 1/1 and lair. And i'd kill the protoss when roachspeed is done with mass roaches.
Also the early roach warren helps for chronoed 4 zealots which come at your 3rd at around 7 minute. Also 150 minerals + drone isn't that much, considered you can lose the game or a hatchery. Remember - if you don't need defensive units, don't build them. And scout with overlords! ^^
Good luck zerg buddies, and all the best to the tosses, too!
This build has been around for almost an entire year now known as the DragonSlayer TripleX 10gate. If you were at all creative when coming up with builds you'd come up with a build that hasn't been around for a year before naming it after something else.
Also, you're meant to proxy all 10 gateways in the corner of the map so it doesn't get scouted and shut down easy mode. For example, the corner of the main in the close by ground main on shakuras, Saccing ovies to check gas timings/tech of choice is very prominent on servers like NA and it gives you no real means of denying it on most maps especially with smaller mains
In addition, the actual build order you posted is extremely inefficient and once again shows how behind you are. 15 or 16 nex then forge variations have been proven to be safe and more economic; it's about the only alternative looking to achieve saturation ASAP.
Further, if you actually knew how to play toss properly you'd know that chronoboost management is key with a build like this. you don't actually need to chrono nonstop, you can have the mineral build up to warp in 10 zealots easily; this implies you can save the chronoboosts to be able to chrono 6 or 7 of your gateways RIGHT after you warp in your first round. This then implies that you can wait for about 19 seconds and you'll get another round of zealots that actually don't get shut down by a few roaches idiots tend to preemptively make. Backing them up and losing one or two while also giving the zerg time to make a round of units that 19 seconds faster is just absurd.
I don't know who taught you to all in in the amazing 1200's master leagues of NA but if you're going to make a manmode build you should at least give it some real thought before posting this as something people should imitate. You're just giving the server more of a bad name in saying poorly constructed build orders get you wins because it's NA.
On April 10 2012 19:56 Markwerf wrote: Also your FFE build is odd, you're making the cannon way too early. In case you scout them right away 16 nex - 16 forge - 17 pylon - 17 gate - 18 cannon, is far better. The third chrono on your nexus is also just a waste.. you're mining like 5 minerals more only because you boost right into a probe cut. Overall the build can just be made much more efficient.
While not my personal preference either, his ffe build is pretty standard.
The cannon is needlessly early, you can put the cannon after second pylon and gate on any map where the hole in the wall is easily plugged, pretty sure that's standard for most maps
On second thought it's actually really bad to delay the gateway like this if you're going for a warpgate allin. I also agree on your other points, you definitely need some stalkers in there.
On April 10 2012 16:05 Josh_rakoons wrote: Do you think delaying the all in for the sake of upgrading charge would be better? for example, skip the +1 and go for an immediate twilight council.
Why would you want charge? Charge versus Zerg isn't that good. Helps a bit versus roaches, but the +1 is much more helpful and can also take of atleast 2 minutes of the timing, which let's the zerg get out roaches in time for the initial push.
Delaying it to replace +1 with charge would therefore be a rather poor idea.
On April 10 2012 15:49 Xana wrote: The all in is definitively powerful, especially if spread out, but I don't see Zergs being unable to respond to this.
Well, there's no build, in any matchup, that one race is "unable to respond to". It's just about continuously adding more builds that might be effective in the right circumstance.
have you tried getting gas before pylon (at 17)? If you do that you can squeak out 150 gas before cybercore finishes. you will have to wait for stalker gas though.
i do this for my 4gate +1 zealot pressure vs zerg. The scary part is that i win probably 1/4 of my games with the pressure. now you're just adding 6 more gates...
On April 10 2012 21:49 TheYellowOne wrote: This build has been around for almost an entire year now known as the DragonSlayer TripleX 10gate. If you were at all creative when coming up with builds you'd come up with a build that hasn't been around for a year before naming it after something else.
Also, you're meant to proxy all 10 gateways in the corner of the map so it doesn't get scouted and shut down easy mode. For example, the corner of the main in the close by ground main on shakuras, Saccing ovies to check gas timings/tech of choice is very prominent on servers like NA and it gives you no real means of denying it on most maps especially with smaller mains
In addition, the actual build order you posted is extremely inefficient and once again shows how behind you are. 15 or 16 nex then forge variations have been proven to be safe and more economic; it's about the only alternative looking to achieve saturation ASAP.
Further, if you actually knew how to play toss properly you'd know that chronoboost management is key with a build like this. you don't actually need to chrono nonstop, you can have the mineral build up to warp in 10 zealots easily; this implies you can save the chronoboosts to be able to chrono 6 or 7 of your gateways RIGHT after you warp in your first round. This then implies that you can wait for about 19 seconds and you'll get another round of zealots that actually don't get shut down by a few roaches idiots tend to preemptively make. Backing them up and losing one or two while also giving the zerg time to make a round of units that 19 seconds faster is just absurd.
I don't know who taught you to all in in the amazing 1200's master leagues of NA but if you're going to make a manmode build you should at least give it some real thought before posting this as something people should imitate. You're just giving the server more of a bad name in saying poorly constructed build orders get you wins because it's NA.
Wow, how unnecessary.
Given that Google returns 5 results (none relevant) for "DragonSlayer TripleX 10gate" and zero relevant results for "DragonSlayer TripleX 10 gate" I have no idea why you would attack a guy for posting a build that he enjoys as stealing from a non-public build from an unknown clan (? I don't even know what DragonSlayer TripleX is).
Why does the proxying of 10 gate matter? Does that mean your base is completely devoid of gates? Surely, any scouting which reveal that a protoss base /with no gates/ would be a red flag, no? About the only reasonable thing you say is that chrono-management might be better off so that you can try to time two warp-ins very closely together before attacking.
all these protoss all-in makes me so fed up with ZvP. around 9:00 macro only to be boiled down to around 2 mins of engagement. the sad thing is that toss players I faced thought it wasn't all-in and complained about zerg macro late game is too strong
For all the zerg complaints about protoss 2 base all-ins, just try to sac an ovy or 2 at an earlier time in the game to gather the information you need to react sooner.
This greatest strength of this build is that it leaves less room for error than some other types of pressure builds from a zerg defensive standpoint. I agree with previous comments that mixing in stalkers would generally be a little more efficient, but the room for a crisis control defense vs a 6 gate stalker/zealot is much more than that of a 10 gate zealot pressure coming from the zerg. You really have to have scouted correctly and reacted in time to hold this as opposed to a "oh crap there are units at my 3rd" make roaches, stabalize at the natural and counter attack if that makes sense :O
My question is why the need for 2 assimilators if you are going to cut gas at 200? you will have ample gas with a standard timing on 1 gas to get all that you need, and you still have 2 unscouted empty geysers that they will take note of regardless just a thought
-Yeah as mentioned above squeezing a gate before first cannon can speed up your timings quite a bit. -I don't know why you get 2 gas for this build if you are pulling probes from gas. You can mine 200 gas from 1 geyer and still hit all the same timings. -I also kind of agree with the above poster and don't really see the point of pulling probes from gas. It only makes the build even more all-in and does not really increase it's effectiveness all that much. In fact I'd say keeping probes on gas is stronger as it will let you make a few sentries to FF his ramp which would be very effective with this multi-pronged attack style.
Just to clear things up, my BM here wasn't random...
00:01:15 - RemarK to ALL: you're pretty good at math for a zerg 00:01:16 - RemarK to ALL: ;s 00:01:45 - RemarK to ALL: no i think zergs are bad at math 00:01:50 - RemarK to ALL: 60 drones, 80 drone, whats the diff
Although I will have to agree this build is pretty good if you get supply blocked 4 times and don't scout the Protoss.
On April 10 2012 19:07 jtixs wrote: I imagine this build will really push the multitasking ability of the protoss player to the limit.
It will also really tax their strategic mind to out think the opponent.
00:01:15 - RemarK to ALL: you're pretty good at math for a zerg 00:01:16 - RemarK to ALL: ;s 00:01:45 - RemarK to ALL: no i think zergs are bad at math 00:01:50 - RemarK to ALL: 60 drones, 80 drone, whats the diff
Although I will have to agree this build is pretty good if you get supply blocked 4 times and don't scout the Protoss.
On April 10 2012 19:07 jtixs wrote: I imagine this build will really push the multitasking ability of the protoss player to the limit.
It will also really tax their strategic mind to out think the opponent.
User was warned for this post
I agree.
We've played like 5 times on the ladder before this, I've always been nice even when you cheesed me twice while trying to make GM. That was meant to be a joke, not BM :/ Either way, I removed the screenshot, it wasn't relevant to the guide at all and was just meant to add humor
On topic, some people aren't reading the "Further points for discussion" - I didn't have time to test 1-gas variants, variants where you keep mining gas for sentries or stalkers, etc, so if anyone wants to test them, please just post here or PM me what you find.
Also, about the FFE build order - naturally, if you scout a hatch first, you should nexus first. However, some of the replays I posted are from when I was grinding the exact same build on the ladder just getting a feel for it, which is why there's probably a game or two where I go forge --> nexus --> cannon --> gateway --> pylon even when scouting a hatch first. Cannon rushing or nexus first gateway before cannon are the best ways to PvZ against hatch first of course.
What's wrong with abusing the current metagame and finding a hole in zerg players defenses with a lame, albeit strong, all gateway attack. Obviously there are scouting flaws if this works out, is there not?
Losing to it should be more of a sign that you need to revamp scouting, or map awareness, even when you fast 3 hatch and late gas.
I suppose the best way for zerg to scout/respond to this would be to use the overlord to scout toss expansion gas (or an overlord sack to see the gateways building). Starting the warren around 6:30 and even cutting drone production earlier than 62 supply could probably defend this easier than greedier versions.
On April 11 2012 04:49 TangSC wrote: I suppose the best way for zerg to scout/respond to this would be to use the overlord to scout toss expansion gas (or an overlord sack to see the gateways building). Starting the warren around 6:30 and even cutting drone production earlier than 62 supply could probably defend this easier than greedier versions.
I think the most important thing for Zerg to scout is gas not being mined in the main - if they scout that quick enough, they can just cut drones at 45~, make 3-4 spines at each base, and be decently well-prepared for it. The key is having roaches + a few spines out, neither on their own I think is enough to hold, especially if the Protoss focuses on sustained pressure on one base instead of splitting
On April 11 2012 04:49 TangSC wrote: I suppose the best way for zerg to scout/respond to this would be to use the overlord to scout toss expansion gas (or an overlord sack to see the gateways building). Starting the warren around 6:30 and even cutting drone production earlier than 62 supply could probably defend this easier than greedier versions.
I think the most important thing for Zerg to scout is gas not being mined in the main - if they scout that quick enough, they can just cut drones at 45~, make 3-4 spines at each base, and be decently well-prepared for it. The key is having roaches + a few spines out, neither on their own I think is enough to hold, especially if the Protoss focuses on sustained pressure on one base instead of splitting
don't Zergs usually sac overlord around ~7 minutes?
On April 10 2012 21:49 TheYellowOne wrote: This build has been around for almost an entire year now known as the DragonSlayer TripleX 10gate. If you were at all creative when coming up with builds you'd come up with a build that hasn't been around for a year before naming it after something else.
Also, you're meant to proxy all 10 gateways in the corner of the map so it doesn't get scouted and shut down easy mode. For example, the corner of the main in the close by ground main on shakuras, Saccing ovies to check gas timings/tech of choice is very prominent on servers like NA and it gives you no real means of denying it on most maps especially with smaller mains
In addition, the actual build order you posted is extremely inefficient and once again shows how behind you are. 15 or 16 nex then forge variations have been proven to be safe and more economic; it's about the only alternative looking to achieve saturation ASAP.
Further, if you actually knew how to play toss properly you'd know that chronoboost management is key with a build like this. you don't actually need to chrono nonstop, you can have the mineral build up to warp in 10 zealots easily; this implies you can save the chronoboosts to be able to chrono 6 or 7 of your gateways RIGHT after you warp in your first round. This then implies that you can wait for about 19 seconds and you'll get another round of zealots that actually don't get shut down by a few roaches idiots tend to preemptively make. Backing them up and losing one or two while also giving the zerg time to make a round of units that 19 seconds faster is just absurd.
I don't know who taught you to all in in the amazing 1200's master leagues of NA but if you're going to make a manmode build you should at least give it some real thought before posting this as something people should imitate. You're just giving the server more of a bad name in saying poorly constructed build orders get you wins because it's NA.
WTF is a Dragonslayer Triplex 10 gate build? Seriously no search results turned up on google or TL, so I'm just going to assume that you are hardcore trolling at this point.
On April 11 2012 04:49 TangSC wrote: I suppose the best way for zerg to scout/respond to this would be to use the overlord to scout toss expansion gas (or an overlord sack to see the gateways building). Starting the warren around 6:30 and even cutting drone production earlier than 62 supply could probably defend this easier than greedier versions.
I think the most important thing for Zerg to scout is gas not being mined in the main - if they scout that quick enough, they can just cut drones at 45~, make 3-4 spines at each base, and be decently well-prepared for it. The key is having roaches + a few spines out, neither on their own I think is enough to hold, especially if the Protoss focuses on sustained pressure on one base instead of splitting
Zerg doesn't need to bother scouting the main gasses at all as this stuff is just strictly worse then a zealot/stalker attack. As long as zerg has their roach warren in time and starts making roaches in time this stuff is just much easier to repel then a normal +1 6/7 gate. There is literally no reason to stop mining gas and force yourself into 3 more gates only to get a weaker unit combination..
On April 10 2012 18:17 blacklist_member wrote: What if the zerg goes muta? Doesn't this leave you really vulnerable to mutas?
Naw, 2 base muta rush hits at 10minutes -minimum- 3 base with a lair rush will hit much, much later.
Also for the people wondering about why not stalker/zealot, the whole point is to get -more- units early on to attack in different areas, albeit weaker, and eventually warp in stalkers with the excess mined gas to finish the game. (just like PvZ BW) - Zealots first, goons to end it
I've seen several 3 basing Zergs begin a blind 6:15 Roach Warren (+Evo) timing to combat all-ins like this. If the Zerg times gas correctly and has spread Creep, Zerg should be able to fend this off with a nice Roach timing and Roach micro.
To clarify: 6:15 Roach Warren 55 second build time Roach production @ 7:10 Roach production timing 27 seconds Roaches arrive at 7:37 Your rush hits right before 8 mins
Therefore a good scout timing would be 6:30 (normal). I think your notes about the Extractor trick (putting Probes back in gas) is pretty smart, but could be foiled by a Zerg diligent enough to count gas. Some Zergs go for a 6 minute Roach Warren, which could dampen your plans.
In all, for auto-piloting Zergs that don't scout, this is pretty awesome.
a) two things to note, i've been doing 10 gate +1 for a while (I'm assuming this is what the build is while cutting probes off gas you can't support 10 gates with only minerals off two base, sadly to say: the build is inefficient you can only go up to 8 gate +1 w/o gas which is something huk does b) this is extremely weak to any zerg pressure build as well, so you'll need active scouting (ie leenock's roach ling cancel hatch will kill you instantly) c) the build is inefficient (eg you can drop down 3 gates faster and then make 6 gates later instead of just 9 at once) d) if your opponent has roaches you lost. Period. team liquid said that to my 5 gate zealot only build which hits 3 minutes faster. they'll have roaches, you will lose. e) the build i use is with 4 gases so i can pump out sentries; these counter the roaches. with sentries and 10 gates you can support full production off 10 gates and gain micro advantage with ffs
as a note to "do i lose to mutas" if you can't kill your opponent within 3 minutes you will lose to mutas this isn't that big a deal though and isn't the hard counter. If your opponent goes up to mutas @ 8:30 anyway you can just steamroll his nat and third and then you'll lose your zealots before you can kill his main, and you'll still have the macro advantage anyway so you'll win later on
On April 11 2012 07:18 thrawn2112 wrote: what do you do when the zerg has enough spines to easily deny the push?
you take a third and do a push off three bases, theres no way you can have an economical amount of spines as zerg to fend off a 10 gate. if you're saying "he has too many roaches at this time" then you've probably lost cause he can just push with roaches and win.
I've seen several 3 basing Zergs begin a blind 6:15 Roach Warren (+Evo) timing to combat all-ins like this. If the Zerg times gas correctly and has spread Creep, Zerg should be able to fend this off with a nice Roach timing and Roach micro.
To clarify: 6:15 Roach Warren 55 second build time Roach production @ 7:10 Roach production timing 27 seconds Roaches arrive at 7:37 Your rush hits right before 8 mins
Therefore a good scout timing would be 6:30 (normal). I think your notes about the Extractor trick (putting Probes back in gas) is pretty smart, but could be foiled by a Zerg diligent enough to count gas. Some Zergs go for a 6 minute Roach Warren, which could dampen your plans.
In all, for auto-piloting Zergs that don't scout, this is pretty awesome.
The Zerg is limited by gas, not roach warren timing usually I believe - the earliest a standard Zerg starts his double extractors is 6:00, some people delay it until 6:30 or later (this build I think is close to auto-win vs the latter). 40 second build time, you should have between 300-400 gas by the time the push hits as Zerg, 100 of which almost always goes to speed.
It seems like roach production and solo spines alone aren't enough to hold it, although maybe I'm just catching everyone I played totally off-guard. But any standard roach and gas timing for a gasless 3rd hatch seems to be very difficult for Z to hold. Best thing for Z to do is 3+ spines at their 3rd and nat while cutting drones and making roaches if they scout a Protoss stop mining gas, I don't think I've ever had a Z hold this off with less than 3 spines per base and normal 6:00 2x extractor.
Edit: Someone asked what happens if the Zerg has made a ton of spines, well, usually I think you just lose - you're a base down, way behind in tech, and have a subpar economy. I don't think taking a 3rd base quickly makes any sense in this situation, contrary to what someone else suggested because you don't even have the probes to saturate 2-bases. Just resume gas mining, chrono out probes, maybe cancel some gates if you have the opportunity to as well, then get some tech going and either take a 3rd behind it or do a 2-base all-in. I don't think your success rate will be very high with this build if they have enough spines to be unbreakable, however, I've never seen enough spines and roaches at both his 3rd and nat that I felt like the push would be utterly ineffectual.
I've seen several 3 basing Zergs begin a blind 6:15 Roach Warren (+Evo) timing to combat all-ins like this. If the Zerg times gas correctly and has spread Creep, Zerg should be able to fend this off with a nice Roach timing and Roach micro.
To clarify: 6:15 Roach Warren 55 second build time Roach production @ 7:10 Roach production timing 27 seconds Roaches arrive at 7:37 Your rush hits right before 8 mins
Therefore a good scout timing would be 6:30 (normal). I think your notes about the Extractor trick (putting Probes back in gas) is pretty smart, but could be foiled by a Zerg diligent enough to count gas. Some Zergs go for a 6 minute Roach Warren, which could dampen your plans.
In all, for auto-piloting Zergs that don't scout, this is pretty awesome.
The Zerg is limited by gas, not roach warren timing usually I believe - the earliest a standard Zerg starts his double extractors is 6:00, some people delay it until 6:30 or later (this build I think is close to auto-win vs the latter). 40 second build time, you should have between 300-400 gas by the time the push hits as Zerg, 100 of which almost always goes to speed.
It seems like roach production and solo spines alone aren't enough to hold it, although maybe I'm just catching everyone I played totally off-guard. But any standard roach and gas timing for a gasless 3rd hatch seems to be very difficult for Z to hold. Best thing for Z to do is 3+ spines at their 3rd and nat while cutting drones and making roaches if they scout a Protoss stop mining gas, I don't think I've ever had a Z hold this off with less than 3 spines per base and normal 6:00 2x extractor.
Edit: Someone asked what happens if the Zerg has made a ton of spines, well, usually I think you just lose - you're a base down, way behind in tech, and have a subpar economy. I don't think taking a 3rd base quickly makes any sense in this situation, contrary to what someone else suggested because you don't even have the probes to saturate 2-bases. Just resume gas mining, chrono out probes, maybe cancel some gates if you have the opportunity to as well, then get some tech going and either take a 3rd behind it or do a 2-base all-in. I don't think your success rate will be very high with this build if they have enough spines to be unbreakable, however, I've never seen enough spines and roaches at both his 3rd and nat that I felt like the push would be utterly ineffectual.
Then it would make more sense for the Zerg to skip Speed entirely and just focus on Roach production. Not sure why a Zerg who scouts this would get Ling speed since Roaches are the necessary unit for survival and eventual counter-aggression/map control.
Haha this is an incredible build, really powerful ! I still have to hit the right timings, but adding another 2 bases all-in to my PvZ arsenal is rly nice. Plus it's a good build to use in a BoX to surprise your opponent.
I ran into a Zerg on ladder a little bit earlier, my timings were off by maybe 1, 1m30, and he had an overlord over my 9 gates that I saw when I morphed them into WG. Well I've been able to snipe queens, many lings, many roaches, drones, at some point I was unsure that I was winning, but in the end I had too much stuff haha, seriously I love it. I'm actually not doin' it the correct way, I always send all my zealots in his nat, I fear that if I split them, they might die at one base.
On April 11 2012 08:21 soLremarK wrote: Edit: Someone asked what happens if the Zerg has made a ton of spines, well, usually I think you just lose - you're a base down, way behind in tech, and have a subpar economy. I don't think taking a 3rd base quickly makes any sense in this situation, contrary to what someone else suggested because you don't even have the probes to saturate 2-bases. Just resume gas mining, chrono out probes, maybe cancel some gates if you have the opportunity to as well, then get some tech going and either take a 3rd behind it or do a 2-base all-in. I don't think your success rate will be very high with this build if they have enough spines to be unbreakable, however, I've never seen enough spines and roaches at both his 3rd and nat that I felt like the push would be utterly ineffectual.
Well, zerg can't have enough spines at both nat and 3rd to deny your push, he'll always lose a base, so it's a 2 base vs 2 base, but yeah, Z is gonna be ahead in tech and eco. But since you'll have alot of minerals if you don't do to many warp-ins, I think you can tech and mass chrono probes to still be in the game. But you'll need to harass alot.
There are a couple of issues I see right off the bat with this build:
1. It is easily scouted. If zerg sacrifices an overlord and sees a massive gateway count and and no gas being mined, its gonna be pretty obvious what you're up to. Furthermore, high level zerg players always keep overlords at your natural to see if your taking the gases there, upon seeing empty geysers, they will suspect a big zealot play.
2. You've said it yourself, you need to kill off 2 mining bases to be able to transition out of this. What if the zerg simply sacked his 3rd, spined up his nat, made roaches and held the agression? I don't imagine that to be hard at all considering they would probably see it coming and have adequate time to prepare. After doing so, you're immediately left in a horrible situation. You have no tech, no gas for tech, and only 32 probes. There would be no way to go up against a fully saturated 2 base zerg from here.
3. this relies heavily on the ability to get proxy pylons across the map. What if your first stalker was unsuccessful in clearing out scout lings? What if the zerg got ~10 lings for map control? Your entire build would collapse.
The main reason why its working so well right now is because its relative new and many zergs may not realize the proper way to counter this. With time, the effectiveness of this build will go down (remember Lobber's 1 base PvZ?).
Great guide, I found it helpful. As this build gains popularity perhpas zerg will get the message and quit playing so dam greedily (ie 3 hatch + droning to 60 with 2 speedlings, while starting upgrades..).
I've done a similar build fairly frequently for a while. However, I've recently used the Huk 8 gate more often, where you continue to mine gas.
If the zerg gets fast roaches and spines up he can often stop this, though you should kill his third. The gas income makes it a lot easier to transition out at that point.
Fond this very helpful! Have won twice already with it! I also haven't refined it yet. Once I do I think this could be really annoying for no gas zergs. Thanks!
On one hand all these all-in timing attacks by protoss make me sad and ashamed of my race.. On the other though if I hit a bo3 or bo5 scenario for any silly tournament or ladder fool that regames me, having good all-ins is pretty sweet since my standard game is the total opposite
What about keep mining gas until you have enough for charge? I've noticed that chargelots are LOTS more effective against roaches than normal zealots. Even if he continues to micro them, iti is far quicker to corner or surround a few of them. If you manage to kill his third but he's still on his second, you are also pretty close to throwing down a third and fourth and going zeal+archon.
On April 11 2012 13:25 BoondockVeritas wrote: On one hand all these all-in timing attacks by protoss make me sad and ashamed of my race.. On the other though if I hit a bo3 or bo5 scenario for any silly tournament or ladder fool that regames me, having good all-ins is pretty sweet since my standard game is the total opposite
Don't worry, I'm already working on another, more macro-oriented guide for PvZ
@everyone who is considering the possibility of charge. Keep in mind that it would significantly delay the attack timing, and 99% of what makes this build good is the timing it hits. While a chargelot archon immortal delayed 10 gate with a normal FFE economy could be good, for the context of this specific all-in, charge would not make sense.
Do you ever send 1-2 zealots into the main mineral line (didn't see that in the replays) in addition to the third and natural? Seems like move commanding zealots is pretty easy but that adds another layer of multitask for Z.
I might try changing the build a little bit to hit quicker: - Gateway before cannon vs standard pool timing, pylon before cannon on larger maps (pretty much everything but close position entombed and metal I think) - Add gateways at 6:00-6:15 instead of 6:30-7:00, slight probe cut possible. Probably most important modification since constant chronoboost can finish warpgate at ~7:30 even with your building order, and gateways take 65 seconds to make. Noticed your attack timing is usually delayed by gateway timing not warpgate. - Only add 7 gates instead of 9
You lose the extra 2 zealots from the 1st warp cycle but you have a bit of spare chronoboost at that time anyways so I don't think it's a very big deal. Hitting ~30 seconds faster might be a worthwhile tradeoff.
Don't plan on doing this build much if at all but I think that's what I would try if I did it...
On April 12 2012 04:48 clazerxsniper wrote: I made this build almost a year ago, i didnt know i'd have to copyright it so people like you didnt steal it
looking through your posts, can't find any guides made by you. please help me out on this one.
On April 12 2012 04:48 clazerxsniper wrote: I made this build almost a year ago, i didnt know i'd have to copyright it so people like you didnt steal it
looking through your posts, can't find any guides made by you. please help me out on this one.
No, he's arbitrarily claiming the build is his, and he made it, and this fellow copied it.
On April 12 2012 04:48 clazerxsniper wrote: I made this build almost a year ago, i didnt know i'd have to copyright it so people like you didnt steal it
Well, I came up with it on my own and I've never heard of you, feel free to make a guide for your build and call it something else if you'd like.
@Whistle: Very good idea - move-commanding 2-3 zealots (in the second warp cycle I reckon) into the main mineral lines + to snipe queens would be a great idea. Thanks!
Also, a bunch of people earlier were saying that they are of the opinion that making 10 gates and only zealots is stupid and way worse than a 6 gate with zealot stalker. However, the difference is that with 10 gates of zealot you can overpower 3-4 spines, whereas if they have even 2 spines at each base with a 6-gate, you lack the numbers to break that and you auto-lose.
I was laddering last night and some of my viewers requested to see the build in action - I used it on a friendly high masters Zerg who had actually seen this guide and anticipated the build coming and still lost despite having 4~ preemptive spines at each base.
It seems to me a lot of people are misunderstanding the nature of this build - as with all things in SC2, if you know 100% it is coming from the moment the game starts, you can easily defeat it. People have said things like "What if the Zerg makes 12 lings and is thus able to deny your stalker?" Well, that'd be a totally random, blind risk for the Zerg to do that - if I was just doing a normal 2-base all-in or a macro-oriented build, then that's 6 less drones they have to make Zerglings that accomplish nothing.
Similarly, sure, a Zerg *could* start extractors earlier than normal, cut at 40 drones, and probably have 12 roaches out to greet my first warp-in. But again, that'd be totally useless and bad in a normal game, and by the time they could have scouted what I am doing, the opportunity to take such drastic actions will have passed. The reason this build is so effective is because of the current ZvP metagame. My only request is that before saying things like "Lol this won't work if zerg just makes roaches" or "6-gate with gas is way better," make sure you really understand the current standard timings in ZvP on the Zerg end.
On April 12 2012 04:48 clazerxsniper wrote: I made this build almost a year ago, i didnt know i'd have to copyright it so people like you didnt steal it
Well, I came up with it on my own and I've never heard of you, feel free to make a guide for your build and call it something else if you'd like.
@Whistle: Very good idea - move-commanding 2-3 zealots (in the second warp cycle I reckon) into the main mineral lines + to snipe queens would be a great idea. Thanks!
Also, a bunch of people earlier were saying that they are of the opinion that making 10 gates and only zealots is stupid and way worse than a 6 gate with zealot stalker. However, the difference is that with 10 gates of zealot you can overpower 3-4 spines, whereas if they have even 2 spines at each base with a 6-gate, you lack the numbers to break that and you auto-lose.
I was laddering last night and some of my viewers requested to see the build in action - I used it on a friendly high masters Zerg who had actually seen this guide and anticipated the build coming and still lost despite having 4~ preemptive spines at each base.
It seems to me a lot of people are misunderstanding the nature of this build - as with all things in SC2, if you know 100% it is coming from the moment the game starts, you can easily defeat it. People have said things like "What if the Zerg makes 12 lings and is thus able to deny your stalker?" Well, that'd be a totally random, blind risk for the Zerg to do that - if I was just doing a normal 2-base all-in or a macro-oriented build, then that's 6 less drones they have to make Zerglings that accomplish nothing.
Similarly, sure, a Zerg *could* start extractors earlier than normal, cut at 40 drones, and probably have 12 roaches out to greet my first warp-in. But again, that'd be totally useless and bad in a normal game, and by the time they could have scouted what I am doing, the opportunity to take such drastic actions will have passed. The reason this build is so effective is because of the current ZvP metagame. My only request is that before saying things like "Lol this won't work if zerg just makes roaches" or "6-gate with gas is way better," make sure you really understand the current standard timings in ZvP on the Zerg end.
You're seriously thinking 2 spines at each base stops a 6 gate?? You easily snipe that with zealot/stalker. There are simply a couple reasons zealot/stalker is strictly better then this: - you have the two geysers anyway.. there is no point going for a 32 probe economy instead of a 38 (or 36) since you'll reach that point early enough anyways.. - pure zealot sucks vs roaches and is great vs pure ling. zealot/stalker is still good vs ling (courtesy of +1) but also has a good chance against roaches. - 10 gates is way too much, you can do with less gates using stalkers because they are a far more efficient use of warpgate. Less gates also makes it much easier to have those gates actually up when your warpins occur. That gate 7 to 10 are usually just too late for the first warpin round anyway... - with stalkers you have some speed and range, ie they can not simply run their drones/queen around waiting for their units to pop which they can vs pure zealot... also you're army will often be between nat and third with these tactics, stalkers punish them for running past you, zealots don't... - stalkers and mining gas provide much better transitions if needed. Sometimes it happens that you misread (they didn't go for a third and you still decided to rush) or they sacrifice the third and put a ton (6+) spines at the natural. With pure zealots you 1) can't punish a drone retreat from the third... and 2) can't transition well if they simply go 2 base roach... With stalkers you can easily go into blink while going up to 4 gas asap if they choose to sac the third and camp the nat..
There is not one reason to go this style over a zealot/stalker style, why would you pull guys of gas to make a unit (zealot) that's worse at rushing then the stalker.. Note that if they go pure ling you don't need to make as many stalkers.. you can simply go more zealot haevy then. You won't spend all your gas then but since lings are so rediculously inefficient vs +1 zealots that doesn't matter..
And yes +1 zeal/stalker is just better at punishing the greedy timings many zergs on ladder are doing these days.. One strat being effective for you doesn't mean another isn't just strictly better.. It is difficult for many zergs to stop these fast mass gate attacks but if they do it properly they WILL speed up their gas & roach timings based on what they scout. A combination of three easy things to scout easily gives away these fast mass gate attacks after FFE: lack of gasses at natural, quick spinning forge and frantic chronoboosting of the cybercore. Even if you were late with the initial 2 geysers you can still get the roach warren faster and throw down gas 3 and 4 faster to stop this, you can also cancel lair tech & evo against this... Proper scouting, adapting and macro and this isn't too hard to stop as zerg..
On April 12 2012 04:48 clazerxsniper wrote: I made this build almost a year ago, i didnt know i'd have to copyright it so people like you didnt steal it
Well, I came up with it on my own and I've never heard of you, feel free to make a guide for your build and call it something else if you'd like.
@Whistle: Very good idea - move-commanding 2-3 zealots (in the second warp cycle I reckon) into the main mineral lines + to snipe queens would be a great idea. Thanks!
Also, a bunch of people earlier were saying that they are of the opinion that making 10 gates and only zealots is stupid and way worse than a 6 gate with zealot stalker. However, the difference is that with 10 gates of zealot you can overpower 3-4 spines, whereas if they have even 2 spines at each base with a 6-gate, you lack the numbers to break that and you auto-lose.
I was laddering last night and some of my viewers requested to see the build in action - I used it on a friendly high masters Zerg who had actually seen this guide and anticipated the build coming and still lost despite having 4~ preemptive spines at each base.
It seems to me a lot of people are misunderstanding the nature of this build - as with all things in SC2, if you know 100% it is coming from the moment the game starts, you can easily defeat it. People have said things like "What if the Zerg makes 12 lings and is thus able to deny your stalker?" Well, that'd be a totally random, blind risk for the Zerg to do that - if I was just doing a normal 2-base all-in or a macro-oriented build, then that's 6 less drones they have to make Zerglings that accomplish nothing.
Similarly, sure, a Zerg *could* start extractors earlier than normal, cut at 40 drones, and probably have 12 roaches out to greet my first warp-in. But again, that'd be totally useless and bad in a normal game, and by the time they could have scouted what I am doing, the opportunity to take such drastic actions will have passed. The reason this build is so effective is because of the current ZvP metagame. My only request is that before saying things like "Lol this won't work if zerg just makes roaches" or "6-gate with gas is way better," make sure you really understand the current standard timings in ZvP on the Zerg end.
You're seriously thinking 2 spines at each base stops a 6 gate?? You easily snipe that with zealot/stalker. There are simply a couple reasons zealot/stalker is strictly better then this: - you have the two geysers anyway.. there is no point going for a 32 probe economy instead of a 38 (or 36) since you'll reach that point early enough anyways.. - pure zealot sucks vs roaches and is great vs pure ling. zealot/stalker is still good vs ling (courtesy of +1) but also has a good chance against roaches. - 10 gates is way too much, you can do with less gates using stalkers because they are a far more efficient use of warpgate. Less gates also makes it much easier to have those gates actually up when your warpins occur. That gate 7 to 10 are usually just too late for the first warpin round anyway... - with stalkers you have some speed and range, ie they can not simply run their drones/queen around waiting for their units to pop which they can vs pure zealot... also you're army will often be between nat and third with these tactics, stalkers punish them for running past you, zealots don't... - stalkers and mining gas provide much better transitions if needed. Sometimes it happens that you misread (they didn't go for a third and you still decided to rush) or they sacrifice the third and put a ton (6+) spines at the natural. With pure zealots you 1) can't punish a drone retreat from the third... and 2) can't transition well if they simply go 2 base roach... With stalkers you can easily go into blink while going up to 4 gas asap if they choose to sac the third and camp the nat..
There is not one reason to go this style over a zealot/stalker style, why would you pull guys of gas to make a unit (zealot) that's worse at rushing then the stalker.. Note that if they go pure ling you don't need to make as many stalkers.. you can simply go more zealot haevy then. You won't spend all your gas then but since lings are so rediculously inefficient vs +1 zealots that doesn't matter..
And yes +1 zeal/stalker is just better at punishing the greedy timings many zergs on ladder are doing these days.. One strat being effective for you doesn't mean another isn't just strictly better.. It is difficult for many zergs to stop these fast mass gate attacks but if they do it properly they WILL speed up their gas & roach timings based on what they scout. A combination of three easy things to scout easily gives away these fast mass gate attacks after FFE: lack of gasses at natural, quick spinning forge and frantic chronoboosting of the cybercore. Even if you were late with the initial 2 geysers you can still get the roach warren faster and throw down gas 3 and 4 faster to stop this, you can also cancel lair tech & evo against this... Proper scouting, adapting and macro and this isn't too hard to stop as zerg..
If you're 6-gating, you'll have what, a zealot and a stalker on the field and a warp-in of 6 gateway units ~7:45? If they have the 6-8 roaches and 10+ lings they're supposed to have, plus 2 spines at each base, that's an easy hold for the Zerg. I think in the current metagame at least, this build is way stronger than a 6-gate with zealot stalker, and my own experiences on the ladder reflect that as well.
I'd gladly test it out again though - if you can give me the basic execution of the build (when to cut probes, how many units to make before warp tech finishes, and if I'm supposed to pull probes off gas), I'll give it a whirl in some custom and ladder games and report back here.
Now that I've tried it a couple times on ladder (diamond level), my god... This makes me feel like a zerg player massing speedlings, except that such an insane number of zealots on the field this early is so much scarier than mass speedlings. The OP's comparison to this being the "PvZ equivalent of a groin punch" is pretty spot on.
My results so far with this are pretty interesting. The only loss I had with it so far was due to my first run of it hitting extremely late (close to 2 minutes late) and him blindly going fast 2 base muta.
The other games (which I won convincingly) had me facing mass speedling + spine, roaches (early roach warren) and speedlings into muta, where a few muta popped when all I had on the field were zealots, and no gas.
Surprisingly, the zealots faired quite well vs the roach, due to the overwhelming nature of the 10 gates and proxy pylons.
Against the ling/muta, the small number of muta that popped were basically useless vs my mass zealots. It was similar to making a couple void rays to defend a massive roach counter attack (without a cannon wall). I put a few probes on gas, made a handful of stalkers and cleaned up the muta without barely a scratch.
I feel like this is just the sort of thing needed to put zerg back in check and punish them for being so greedy (i.e. stephano style). It's also very difficult to know that this might be coming, since it pretty much looks like a standard FFE, until it's too late.
Shit, that screenshot is of me getting stomped by this
Very scary build, although I was pretty rusty so I didn't even deny the proxy pylon. I think the real strength of the build is that if the overlord is killed and you don't sac another over you don't really have an easy way to know it's coming.
I used to do a variant of this build aswell 2 seasons ago, where i made 2x rays and Buildt a pylon below their base to Warpin up with 13Gate Zealot only, Worked like a charm. comes at around 12min tho, wonder if it still works. im sure theres a reason i stopped doing it. ^ ^ ^ Worked at high masters/Low GM MMR, Lots of rage is expected. Might write a guide on it myself if i get the time. Sadly its really risky tho, seeing as if your pylon/probe gets spotted, ur done, but with 2x Rays u can Kill any Scouting ling/Overlord to sneak the probe in the right position. Genius build imo.
OT: Well written guide, Love builds like this when im tired of 30+ min games vs a zerg or get really frustrated. as stated above, been doing variants of Heavy Zealot play for a while. feelsgoodman.jpg
On April 12 2012 04:48 clazerxsniper wrote: I made this build almost a year ago, i didnt know i'd have to copyright it so people like you didnt steal it
Well, I came up with it on my own and I've never heard of you, feel free to make a guide for your build and call it something else if you'd like.
@Whistle: Very good idea - move-commanding 2-3 zealots (in the second warp cycle I reckon) into the main mineral lines + to snipe queens would be a great idea. Thanks!
Also, a bunch of people earlier were saying that they are of the opinion that making 10 gates and only zealots is stupid and way worse than a 6 gate with zealot stalker. However, the difference is that with 10 gates of zealot you can overpower 3-4 spines, whereas if they have even 2 spines at each base with a 6-gate, you lack the numbers to break that and you auto-lose.
I was laddering last night and some of my viewers requested to see the build in action - I used it on a friendly high masters Zerg who had actually seen this guide and anticipated the build coming and still lost despite having 4~ preemptive spines at each base.
It seems to me a lot of people are misunderstanding the nature of this build - as with all things in SC2, if you know 100% it is coming from the moment the game starts, you can easily defeat it. People have said things like "What if the Zerg makes 12 lings and is thus able to deny your stalker?" Well, that'd be a totally random, blind risk for the Zerg to do that - if I was just doing a normal 2-base all-in or a macro-oriented build, then that's 6 less drones they have to make Zerglings that accomplish nothing.
Similarly, sure, a Zerg *could* start extractors earlier than normal, cut at 40 drones, and probably have 12 roaches out to greet my first warp-in. But again, that'd be totally useless and bad in a normal game, and by the time they could have scouted what I am doing, the opportunity to take such drastic actions will have passed. The reason this build is so effective is because of the current ZvP metagame. My only request is that before saying things like "Lol this won't work if zerg just makes roaches" or "6-gate with gas is way better," make sure you really understand the current standard timings in ZvP on the Zerg end.
You're seriously thinking 2 spines at each base stops a 6 gate?? You easily snipe that with zealot/stalker. There are simply a couple reasons zealot/stalker is strictly better then this: - you have the two geysers anyway.. there is no point going for a 32 probe economy instead of a 38 (or 36) since you'll reach that point early enough anyways.. - pure zealot sucks vs roaches and is great vs pure ling. zealot/stalker is still good vs ling (courtesy of +1) but also has a good chance against roaches. - 10 gates is way too much, you can do with less gates using stalkers because they are a far more efficient use of warpgate. Less gates also makes it much easier to have those gates actually up when your warpins occur. That gate 7 to 10 are usually just too late for the first warpin round anyway... - with stalkers you have some speed and range, ie they can not simply run their drones/queen around waiting for their units to pop which they can vs pure zealot... also you're army will often be between nat and third with these tactics, stalkers punish them for running past you, zealots don't... - stalkers and mining gas provide much better transitions if needed. Sometimes it happens that you misread (they didn't go for a third and you still decided to rush) or they sacrifice the third and put a ton (6+) spines at the natural. With pure zealots you 1) can't punish a drone retreat from the third... and 2) can't transition well if they simply go 2 base roach... With stalkers you can easily go into blink while going up to 4 gas asap if they choose to sac the third and camp the nat..
There is not one reason to go this style over a zealot/stalker style, why would you pull guys of gas to make a unit (zealot) that's worse at rushing then the stalker.. Note that if they go pure ling you don't need to make as many stalkers.. you can simply go more zealot haevy then. You won't spend all your gas then but since lings are so rediculously inefficient vs +1 zealots that doesn't matter..
And yes +1 zeal/stalker is just better at punishing the greedy timings many zergs on ladder are doing these days.. One strat being effective for you doesn't mean another isn't just strictly better.. It is difficult for many zergs to stop these fast mass gate attacks but if they do it properly they WILL speed up their gas & roach timings based on what they scout. A combination of three easy things to scout easily gives away these fast mass gate attacks after FFE: lack of gasses at natural, quick spinning forge and frantic chronoboosting of the cybercore. Even if you were late with the initial 2 geysers you can still get the roach warren faster and throw down gas 3 and 4 faster to stop this, you can also cancel lair tech & evo against this... Proper scouting, adapting and macro and this isn't too hard to stop as zerg..
If you're 6-gating, you'll have what, a zealot and a stalker on the field and a warp-in of 6 gateway units ~7:45? If they have the 6-8 roaches and 10+ lings they're supposed to have, plus 2 spines at each base, that's an easy hold for the Zerg. I think in the current metagame at least, this build is way stronger than a 6-gate with zealot stalker, and my own experiences on the ladder reflect that as well.
I'd gladly test it out again though - if you can give me the basic execution of the build (when to cut probes, how many units to make before warp tech finishes, and if I'm supposed to pull probes off gas), I'll give it a whirl in some custom and ladder games and report back here.
The build for 6 gate is really easy.. Just do your FFE, 2 gas etc. and chrono warpgate nonstop. Go up to 36 probes, 4 in gas 32 on minerals and get 6 gates... I tend to make 2 stalkers to accompany the probe for the pylon and then warp in a round of a stalkers first usually at the forward pylon, unless i see speed is done. It's very hard for zerg to have what you describe as you can easily switch between nat and third to attack. Besides if they do have what you describe they probably stomp the mass zealot attack as well.. Good zergs will be having as many roaches as possible anyways and no more then the early lings to stop attacks like this. I just don't get it how you ever think your pure zealot attack is better.. Just the fact warpgates are 50% more efficient making stalkers then zealots should be enough reason to mix it up since you have geysers anyway... Plus pure zealot has a relatively hard counter in pure roach, zealot/stalker has no hard counters like that. The trick of a good rush attack is that you often win (narrowly), not that you win occasionally by a landslide... The ONLY case i think this pure zealot attack might be better is against some weird lings + fast upgrades kind of style like TLO tried in your replays.. Not only is that style bad, it's also very rare now so there is zero reason to your style over the more common 6 gate style. It's just more efficient, versatile and faster..
Why its good: Catches zergs off guard. If they don't scout it, its pretty hard to stop it. Worst mistake they can make is thinking they can stop it with lings only. But even if they don't see it, they are not going to die to it.
All they need to do is sack the 3rd base and try to save as many drones as possible and focus on making roaches. By the time the zealots are done with the 3rd, the roaches will be out, and the 2-pronged effect of the build is gone.
Why is the zerg still ahead in this case? Simple. Zerg has better tech, more drones, in 1 minute he can repel the units from the 3rd and even zergs can double expend at this point. And they will still be ahead (they would have 50+ drones, depending on how many they saved frm the 3rd and protoss will be at like 40-42 probes. Why? If the protoss builds 32 probes for the attack and resumes probe production after the 3rd falls, if he chronos probes, he can get 10 in 1 minute max).
Why did it work for HuK? Because his main focus was on the 1st expo of the zerg. And he tried to fight zealots with drones in several occasions. he tried to save all his bases - that was impossible.
I ran into this build once so far. I failed to scout the gates and did have an overloard over the protoss natural bases gases (silly me :D). I sacked my 3rd and build 1 minute later I pushed the protoss army out of my 3rd with 15+ roaches and a few lings. At that point I double expanded (always what I do after I win a nice fight and i'm equal on bases with the toss/terran enemy). And I went for mutas. Toss has such a late tech that he had 8-9 stalkers VS 10+ mutas.
Guess who said that mutas are OP at the end of the game :D:D:D
From the replays it looks like a 5:30 scout or something like that with an overlord would reveal no probes in gas. From there the zerg doesn't need an evo chamber, ling speed, and perhaps even lair. Earlier roach warren and drone cut is possible from there, maybe drop an extra creep tumor to nulify problem of slow roaches. .
Perhaps what you do gain out o this builds is zergs having to sac an overlord at least once during their 3 base drone orgy and I guess that is certainly a victory for your races. Could be wrong, hope I'm right though cause if this were a dominantt build you can say bye bye to televised zvp.
On April 12 2012 21:30 ckolev wrote: Why its good: Catches zergs off guard. If they don't scout it, its pretty hard to stop it. Worst mistake they can make is thinking they can stop it with lings only. But even if they don't see it, they are not going to die to it.
All they need to do is sack the 3rd base and try to save as many drones as possible and focus on making roaches. By the time the zealots are done with the 3rd, the roaches will be out, and the 2-pronged effect of the build is gone.
Why is the zerg still ahead in this case? Simple. Zerg has better tech, more drones, in 1 minute he can repel the units from the 3rd and even zergs can double expend at this point. And they will still be ahead (they would have 50+ drones, depending on how many they saved frm the 3rd and protoss will be at like 40-42 probes. Why? If the protoss builds 32 probes for the attack and resumes probe production after the 3rd falls, if he chronos probes, he can get 10 in 1 minute max).
Why did it work for HuK? Because his main focus was on the 1st expo of the zerg. And he tried to fight zealots with drones in several occasions. he tried to save all his bases - that was impossible.
I ran into this build once so far. I failed to scout the gates and did have an overloard over the protoss natural bases gases (silly me :D). I sacked my 3rd and build 1 minute later I pushed the protoss army out of my 3rd with 15+ roaches and a few lings. At that point I double expanded (always what I do after I win a nice fight and i'm equal on bases with the toss/terran enemy). And I went for mutas. Toss has such a late tech that he had 8-9 stalkers VS 10+ mutas.
Guess who said that mutas are OP at the end of the game :D:D:D
I hope this is true cause it's even better then what I said. Only having to react to an all in by sacing a base is truly better then delaying lair, ling speed and roach speed.
On April 12 2012 21:30 ckolev wrote: Why its good: Catches zergs off guard. If they don't scout it, its pretty hard to stop it. Worst mistake they can make is thinking they can stop it with lings only. But even if they don't see it, they are not going to die to it.
All they need to do is sack the 3rd base and try to save as many drones as possible and focus on making roaches. By the time the zealots are done with the 3rd, the roaches will be out, and the 2-pronged effect of the build is gone.
Why is the zerg still ahead in this case? Simple. Zerg has better tech, more drones, in 1 minute he can repel the units from the 3rd and even zergs can double expend at this point. And they will still be ahead (they would have 50+ drones, depending on how many they saved frm the 3rd and protoss will be at like 40-42 probes. Why? If the protoss builds 32 probes for the attack and resumes probe production after the 3rd falls, if he chronos probes, he can get 10 in 1 minute max).
Why did it work for HuK? Because his main focus was on the 1st expo of the zerg. And he tried to fight zealots with drones in several occasions. he tried to save all his bases - that was impossible.
I ran into this build once so far. I failed to scout the gates and did have an overloard over the protoss natural bases gases (silly me :D). I sacked my 3rd and build 1 minute later I pushed the protoss army out of my 3rd with 15+ roaches and a few lings. At that point I double expanded (always what I do after I win a nice fight and i'm equal on bases with the toss/terran enemy). And I went for mutas. Toss has such a late tech that he had 8-9 stalkers VS 10+ mutas.
Guess who said that mutas are OP at the end of the game :D:D:D
Why do you assume that Protoss will take so much time to 'be done with the third'?
For example, why wouldn't we, as Protoss players, notice that you're pulling drones and bam - start attacking the Nat. You're still going to suffer pretty high damage, -and- your economy will be limited immediately without us having to do anything. True, you're going to be able to concentrate more of your APM to holding one single location, but overall, there's no reason for Protoss players to keep his zealots at your third if we already made it inactive.
On April 12 2012 04:48 clazerxsniper wrote: I made this build almost a year ago, i didnt know i'd have to copyright it so people like you didnt steal it
I actually came up with the build where people built more than 6 probes. Stop copying me`
On April 12 2012 21:30 ckolev wrote: Why its good: Catches zergs off guard. If they don't scout it, its pretty hard to stop it. Worst mistake they can make is thinking they can stop it with lings only. But even if they don't see it, they are not going to die to it.
All they need to do is sack the 3rd base and try to save as many drones as possible and focus on making roaches. By the time the zealots are done with the 3rd, the roaches will be out, and the 2-pronged effect of the build is gone.
Why is the zerg still ahead in this case? Simple. Zerg has better tech, more drones, in 1 minute he can repel the units from the 3rd and even zergs can double expend at this point. And they will still be ahead (they would have 50+ drones, depending on how many they saved frm the 3rd and protoss will be at like 40-42 probes. Why? If the protoss builds 32 probes for the attack and resumes probe production after the 3rd falls, if he chronos probes, he can get 10 in 1 minute max).
Why did it work for HuK? Because his main focus was on the 1st expo of the zerg. And he tried to fight zealots with drones in several occasions. he tried to save all his bases - that was impossible.
I ran into this build once so far. I failed to scout the gates and did have an overloard over the protoss natural bases gases (silly me :D). I sacked my 3rd and build 1 minute later I pushed the protoss army out of my 3rd with 15+ roaches and a few lings. At that point I double expanded (always what I do after I win a nice fight and i'm equal on bases with the toss/terran enemy). And I went for mutas. Toss has such a late tech that he had 8-9 stalkers VS 10+ mutas.
Guess who said that mutas are OP at the end of the game :D:D:D
I think I even addressed this in the guide, but once you've killed a Queen + denied mining at a base, you leave at most 2 zealots there to kill / chase any reinforcements that spawn there. If the Z is unprepared, they'll be denied mining + queen at their 3rd base really quickly, and then you can brute force attack their natural with 20-30 zealots, you can move command zealots into the main to snipe queens and kill drones there, etc, etc
If you'd like, I could play a game vs you where you try sacking your 3rd base when you're unprepared for the build and we can see how it plays out.
On April 10 2012 21:49 TheYellowOne wrote: This build has been around for almost an entire year now known as the DragonSlayer TripleX 10gate. If you were at all creative when coming up with builds you'd come up with a build that hasn't been around for a year before naming it after something else.
If you were at all creative when coming up with names you'd come up with a name that isn't ridiculously similar to one of the most known starcraft 2 players in recent memory.
cool build. i've tried lots of different kinds of mass gateway pressure/allin, but pure zealot is something i never would have thought of before. i'll definitely try this out on ladder
I just ran a couple YABOT games; going off 1gas is viable (I was going Nexus first though, not sure how much that changes). 9Pylon 16Nexus 17Forge 17Gate 17Gas 17Pylon 17Cannon. I made the addition of getting a zealot before the stalker; the stalker gets slightly delayed because of the slower gas, and I figured we could use the extra muscle to make the proxy pylons a little safer. Cutting probes at 17 for that long feels a bit awkward, but I actually think it works well here. It's the only way to get the gateway, the gas, and the cannon all up in time, and the 1gas build isn't really limited by it's mineral count anyway once those initial structures are down. I was able to make 7 extra gates at 6:15, with enough minerals for 5 proxy pylons and have my first warpin done at 7:40. I think that's a slight improvement, though I don't know how much is due to the 1gas and how much is due to the Nexus first. Someone with better probe stacking than me could probably squeeze the 9th gate in there at 6:15 and still have it done on time; otherwise if you make more than 8 gates the last couple finish a bit after WG tech. And for the sake of completeness: I used 3 chronos on probes before the Nexus, 3 chronos on probes after the Nexus, 2 chronos on +1, and 4 chronos on WG.
Having quite a bit of success with this build in diamond league NA. Thanks!!! I've been hiding the 1 pylon and 9 gates somewhere else on the map (probably really risky) but it makes sure it doesn't get scouted heh.
On April 13 2012 02:32 Zarent wrote: Why do you assume that Protoss will take so much time to 'be done with the third'?
For example, why wouldn't we, as Protoss players, notice that you're pulling drones and bam - start attacking the Nat. You're still going to suffer pretty high damage, -and- your economy will be limited immediately without us having to do anything. True, you're going to be able to concentrate more of your APM to holding one single location, but overall, there's no reason for Protoss players to keep his zealots at your third if we already made it inactive.
You need like 20-25 sec. to make a few additional roaches. Your idea assumes that the zerg makes no units during the entire time of the attack. That's kind of dumb. Roaches do not die to zealots, because of creep and kitting. The moment he sees proxy pylons, he will start building roaches. As I said I already ran into this build on the ladder, before even reading about it and I had no problems doing the described by me above.
On April 13 2012 04:56 soLremarK wrote: I think I even addressed this in the guide, but once you've killed a Queen + denied mining at a base, you leave at most 2 zealots there to kill / chase any reinforcements that spawn there. If the Z is unprepared, they'll be denied mining + queen at their 3rd base really quickly, and then you can brute force attack their natural with 20-30 zealots, you can move command zealots into the main to snipe queens and kill drones there, etc, etc
If you'd like, I could play a game vs you where you try sacking your 3rd base when you're unprepared for the build and we can see how it plays out.
1st: If you leave 2 zealots and 3 roaches spawn, that base is safe. You need to send more zealots, which will weaken the attack on the nat. 2nd: Again, like so many you are assuming that you roaches are going to fight the zealots head on. ROACHES KITE!!!!! The idea of the build is to attack 2 locations at the same time. By forcing the protoss to attack one location, those 20-30 zealots will not be able to kill more than the queens. At that point - so what? You have 25-30 roaches and he protoss has no gas, no tech. Any zealots you make from that point are going to be destroyed. You need 3 warp-in cycles to have more zealots than there are roaches now. 3 Warp-in cycles are over 1:30 minutes. You say chrono - I say you have 9 gates, how many chrono can you have at that point? 8 max, cuz you are on 2 bases. You can reduce the warp-in time by 15 seconds. I still have more roaches than the protoss. This build is bad. Works once every 50 games (maybe even not as often).
On April 13 2012 16:00 ckolev wrote:You need like 20-25 sec. to make a few additional roaches. Your idea assumes that the zerg makes no units during the entire time of the attack. That's kind of dumb. Roaches do not die to zealots, because of creep and kitting. The moment he sees proxy pylons, he will start building roaches. As I said I already ran into this build on the ladder, before even reading about it and I had no problems doing the described by me above.
First rule of the internet: reps or it didn't happen.
On April 13 2012 16:00 ckolev wrote:1st: If you leave 2 zealots and 3 roaches spawn, that base is safe. You need to send more zealots, which will weaken the attack on the nat.
"Safe" but not mining. Having a lonely hatchery in the middle of nowhere doesn't help you.
On April 13 2012 16:00 ckolev wrote:2nd: Again, like so many you are assuming that you roaches are going to fight the zealots head on. ROACHES KITE!!!!! The idea of the build is to attack 2 locations at the same time. By forcing the protoss to attack one location, those 20-30 zealots will not be able to kill more than the queens. At that point - so what? You have 25-30 roaches and he protoss has no gas, no tech. Any zealots you make from that point are going to be destroyed. You need 3 warp-in cycles to have more zealots than there are roaches now. 3 Warp-in cycles are over 1:30 minutes. You say chrono - I say you have 9 gates, how many chrono can you have at that point? 8 max, cuz you are on 2 bases. You can reduce the warp-in time by 15 seconds. I still have more roaches than the protoss. This build is bad. Works once every 50 games (maybe even not as often).
So, what you're saying is: if the zerg scouts the build, reacts correctly, and micros well, then zerg wins? I guess that makes it just like every other allin in the damn game. But saying "just kite" is a vast oversimplification. Have you ever tried to kite in the natural of shakuras plateau? Fighting zealots with roaches when you have mineral lines to defend is not the same as fighting in open ground; if you kite too far, suddenly you can't mine from that base. Protoss will be sending zealots to all of your mineral lines, so you still have to have excellent multitasking and crisis management to hold it off. Of course it's winnable for zerg, but this build is no worse than the hatch-cancel roach allin, and that build won an MLG.
First rule of the internet: reps or it didn't happen.
I'd love to, but I can't right now, will look for it tonight. I don't care if anyone believes me or not. If you don't want to use my response against this build, don't, better win rate for me then.
"Safe" but not mining. Having a lonely hatchery in the middle of nowhere doesn't help you.
Please don't use just parts of what I said, out of context. If the base is not dead and you evacuated 20 drones, by loosing ~5, then its easy to re-saturate the base if the hatchery is still up (of course once the attack is repelled). At the point of your attack, toss is on 32 probes. Your 2 saturated bases are much stronger than his 2 bases.
So, what you're saying is: if the zerg scouts the build, reacts correctly, and micros well, then zerg wins? I guess that makes it just like every other allin in the damn game. But saying "just kite" is a vast oversimplification. Have you ever tried to kite in the natural of shakuras plateau? Fighting zealots with roaches when you have mineral lines to defend is not the same as fighting in open ground; if you kite too far, suddenly you can't mine from that base. Protoss will be sending zealots to all of your mineral lines, so you still have to have excellent multitasking and crisis management to hold it off. Of course it's winnable for zerg, but this build is no worse than the hatch-cancel roach allin, and that build won an MLG.
Where do I say that zerg wins??? I said that zerg is ahead, even if he looses the 3rd base because of better tech and more drones, than probes.
But saying "just kite" is a vast oversimplification
Well, actually its as simple as that. Any zerg can confirm. Its like marine kitting. Only you have better speed because of creep and eventually because of roach speed.
Also I didn't specify the map. In let me tell you about one more trick to stop the zealots from taking the roaches head on in the natiral of Shakuras especially - DRONE STOP COMMAND!!! You put your drones between the zealots and the roaches, start spamming STOP command on the drones and the zealots start to "dance" in front of them. The hold-position trick zergs use with lings is not that good in this case, because the melee units need to be between the workers, which is not the case. Also the zealots can start to focus the drones 1by1, but a bit of mineral-mining micro can do wonders.
On April 13 2012 19:55 ckolev wrote:Please don't use just parts of what I said, out of context. If the base is not dead and you evacuated 20 drones, by loosing ~5, then its easy to re-saturate the base if the hatchery is still up (of course once the attack is repelled). At the point of your attack, toss is on 32 probes. Your 2 saturated bases are much stronger than his 2 bases.
I did you the favour of assuming you'd at least read the OP; obviously that was unjustified. Protoss isn't pulling back. The attack is allin; OP acknowledges that. Having a third hatchery not mining isn't going to help you hold off the attack now, which is what zerg needs to do. If you hold the attack with 3 bases up, yeah, you win. But if you hold with 2 bases up you still win, so it's really not relevant.
On April 13 2012 19:55 ckolev wrote:Where do I say that zerg wins??? I said that zerg is ahead, even if he looses the 3rd base because of better tech and more drones, than probes.
What? If you hold the attack, you win. Yeah, we know. Every allin is like that. The question is how easy the allin is to hold, and you seem to be assuming it's near trivial. That's we point we're arguing about; of course zerg is way ahead if he holds. No one's arguing that.
On April 13 2012 19:55 ckolev wrote:Well, actually its as simple as that. Any zerg can confirm. Its like marine kitting. Only you have better speed because of creep and eventually because of roach speed.
Also I didn't specify the map. In let me tell you about one more trick to stop the zealots from taking the roaches head on in the natiral of Shakuras especially - DRONE STOP COMMAND!!! You put your drones between the zealots and the roaches, start spamming STOP command on the drones and the zealots start to "dance" in front of them. The hold-position trick zergs use with lings is not that good in this case, because the melee units need to be between the workers, which is not the case. Also the zealots can start to focus the drones 1by1, but a bit of mineral-mining micro can do wonders.
"Just micro; you'll win!" Yeah, okay. If you can stutterstep your roaches, stop command and mineral walk drones in two locations, protect your queens and keep up your injects, use your larva as they hatch, and do this all while protoss is completely free to micro their zealots, you can probably hold. That's obviously not hard at all.
On April 12 2012 21:45 EndOfLine wrote: As a master NA zerg. This build is the bane of my life!
I need to start making banelings lol
6 banes (3 larvae, 300/150) to kill 1 zealot (100/0) if he splits. You would have to match his production and guarantee hitting 5 zealots on average per bane to stay even (gas mines slightly slower than minerals, so is worth more than 1:1 conversion) and you cannot match his production at this timing OR guarantee those hits.
OK, I'm not going to spend time here any more, so to summarize:
- build roaches don't lings, extra minerals go to spines at the natural. If you evacuate the drones from 3rd (at least 50%), you will have drones to spare. - micro roaches and queens. micro according to the situation (should be so obvious). - sack 3rd, if no hope to save. Do not fight an overwhelming amount of zealots, just so you can save it. - build extra queens as soon as you see the attack coming. Even if you don't lose any queens, (you should loose at least the one at the 3rd), you will have 4 queens, 2 additional hatches after attack is stopped are not so uncommon. - if you don't agree with the tips above, do not use them.
Just thought of one more thing players can do (specially on the dreaded Shakuras Plateau) - Wall-of natural with 3 evos (similar to protoss wall of) and put roaches and spines behind them. Costs 3 drones and 225 minerals. This should cost the Protoss too much zealots to break.
As a high-masters protoss, I've been trying to make this build work all day. Each time the zerg had enough roaches to defend easily, either massing all my zlots at one base or splitting them between his third and nat.
Someone suggested taking only 1 gas, and I just tried it out--it works much better. There is no way that a zerg will let you get away with this build if it's scouted too early, so you'll need the stalker in your base instead of out protecting your probe. 1 gas means that your stalker will be out later, giving you time to build a zealot to scout. With the help of a probe, the zealot can kill 4 zerglings (if your opponent has more than that, just sac your units to scout. If he has more than 4 speedlings, he's probably planning an all-in). Once your stalker has cleared out any initial overlords, it can help defend your scout until your 10 gates are done. As long as your opponent doesn't scout this until ~7 minutes, you should be fine.
Overall, very fun build TY for making my PvZs quick and interesting ^^
On April 13 2012 19:55 ckolev wrote: Well, actually its as simple as that. Any zerg can confirm. Its like marine kitting. Only you have better speed because of creep and eventually because of roach speed.
Actually, in this case since the zerg is defending, he's the one under pressure (I assume mental pressure). Plus he's facing an all-in, so it's even worse. Usually yeah, the zerg wil try to kite, that kind of stuff, and trust me it's fucking easy to trap them somewhere on the base (usually behind the mineral line). You just have to anticipate where the zerg is gonna make his next move command, you send a wave of zealots there, and you're done. I have 95-100% winrate with this build, even when Z has an overlord over my 9 gates, I managed to kill them with just micro, so no, it's not as easy to defend as you pretend.
why 10 gates? you cant even support those. 8 or 9 is better imo.
also, 7:40-8:00 is ONLY possible if youre being greedy, youd die to any roach or bling allin. ofc, youll be able to scout a possible 3rd, but its not like they couldnt cancel it. also, you have to gateway before cannon which can be iffy sometimes.
still, its a great allin and very hard to hold if the zerg players are dumb enough to let a probe survive on the map and build proxypylons everywhere. yes, you hide it in a far away corner and "pylon" towards his 3rd or natu, but very good players will always find your probe / pylon. you can overproduce pylons near his base so he cant kill them in time, but that weakens your allin.
On April 18 2012 13:10 KalWarkov wrote: why 10 gates? you cant even support those. 8 or 9 is better imo.
also, 7:40-8:00 is ONLY possible if youre being greedy, youd die to any roach or bling allin. ofc, youll be able to scout a possible 3rd, but its not like they couldnt cancel it. also, you have to gateway before cannon which can be iffy sometimes.
still, its a great allin and very hard to hold if the zerg players are dumb enough to let a probe survive on the map and build proxypylons everywhere. yes, you hide it in a far away corner and "pylon" towards his 3rd or natu, but very good players will always find your probe / pylon. you can overproduce pylons near his base so he cant kill them in time, but that weakens your allin.
You can support them -.-, you're only warping in zealots not costly stalkers.
In fact everything you said is wrong. You're not meant to play "safe' to beat a roach all in, you're meant to scout.
On April 18 2012 13:10 KalWarkov wrote: why 10 gates? you cant even support those. 8 or 9 is better imo.
also, 7:40-8:00 is ONLY possible if youre being greedy, youd die to any roach or bling allin. ofc, youll be able to scout a possible 3rd, but its not like they couldnt cancel it. also, you have to gateway before cannon which can be iffy sometimes.
still, its a great allin and very hard to hold if the zerg players are dumb enough to let a probe survive on the map and build proxypylons everywhere. yes, you hide it in a far away corner and "pylon" towards his 3rd or natu, but very good players will always find your probe / pylon. you can overproduce pylons near his base so he cant kill them in time, but that weakens your allin.
You can support them -.-, you're only warping in zealots not costly stalkers.
In fact everything you said is wrong. You're not meant to play "safe' to beat a roach all in, you're meant to scout.
if you macro perfectly, you cant. youre not oversaturated at your 2 bases and have 50 probes on 2 bases or sth. with this early allin.
also, if you do this build out of 1 gas and not out of 2 gas with 2 probes in each of them, all it takes for the Z is to scout your main once with an early overlord and he knows for certain what awaits him. he will still have huge problems to deal with it obviously, but i dno, you dont even have stuff to kill overlords running into your base.
dont get me wrong, its a cool build and i also use it occasionally, but to be able to make it a 7:40-8:00 first warpin you need to cut so many corners that great zerg players should be able to punish you for it or be rdy enough to survive with "small" losses (that means his drones survive or his 3rd doesnt die, but his drones at the 3rd do).
thanks for the guide/contribution, and shame on the haters who have bashed this guy who is just helping out, get that negative shit outta here...
I am wondering though, why do you need double gas? single gas gives you the gas you need to hit all the timings i see. when compared with a stalker, a zealot or two is also pretty good in fighting lings on an open map with micro. i played it twice where i only played one gas and pulled the probes once i had +1 wg and the stalker building, it feels better imo. I'm wondering if there is something else i should be doing with the extra mins saved by not going second gas
also, this style feels super easy to win with... I've played games where I made some pretty big mistakes and still won fairly easily
On April 18 2012 13:10 KalWarkov wrote: why 10 gates? you cant even support those. 8 or 9 is better imo.
also, 7:40-8:00 is ONLY possible if youre being greedy, youd die to any roach or bling allin. ofc, youll be able to scout a possible 3rd, but its not like they couldnt cancel it. also, you have to gateway before cannon which can be iffy sometimes.
still, its a great allin and very hard to hold if the zerg players are dumb enough to let a probe survive on the map and build proxypylons everywhere. yes, you hide it in a far away corner and "pylon" towards his 3rd or natu, but very good players will always find your probe / pylon. you can overproduce pylons near his base so he cant kill them in time, but that weakens your allin.
You can support them -.-, you're only warping in zealots not costly stalkers.
In fact everything you said is wrong. You're not meant to play "safe' to beat a roach all in, you're meant to scout.
if you macro perfectly, you cant. youre not oversaturated at your 2 bases and have 50 probes on 2 bases or sth. with this early allin.
also, if you do this build out of 1 gas and not out of 2 gas with 2 probes in each of them, all it takes for the Z is to scout your main once with an early overlord and he knows for certain what awaits him. he will still have huge problems to deal with it obviously, but i dno, you dont even have stuff to kill overlords running into your base.
dont get me wrong, its a cool build and i also use it occasionally, but to be able to make it a 7:40-8:00 first warpin you need to cut so many corners that great zerg players should be able to punish you for it or be rdy enough to survive with "small" losses (that means his drones survive or his 3rd doesnt die, but his drones at the 3rd do).
Lol.. no. Firstly, it's 32 probes. Any more and you're not doing it right. Secondly, your first warpin should be 10 zealots aka 1000 minerals, it flows pretty well. Thirdly, it's 2 gas for a reason, its impossible to start +1 attack wg research and 1 stalker at the same time unless you have 2 guisers mining until 200 gas. Fourthly, zergs don't usually scout until the timing that this push hits, which is too late. You also have a stalker to kill overlords before the timing hits.
Sure there are problems with this build but you're identifying non-existing ones. The problem with this build is that if the zerg gets an early roach warren and a couple of spines then you have lost.
im not quite sure what im doing wrong, i believe im following the build fairly well but my attack always seems to hit exactly a minute late (in game time), so my first warp in is around 8;40, which often times is a gamble on how greedy the zerg got - often times the roaches are just spawning at this point and i am unable to break them with their mass amount of roaches
(almost always i get the third, but am unable to go further)
man, i love this build. I think i have win rates like 20:1 atm, and the only loss was in a custom game, vs a mid masters player (high plat here, but i dont play often)
On May 14 2012 23:15 JitnikoVi wrote: im not quite sure what im doing wrong, i believe im following the build fairly well but my attack always seems to hit exactly a minute late (in game time), so my first warp in is around 8;40, which often times is a gamble on how greedy the zerg got - often times the roaches are just spawning at this point and i am unable to break them with their mass amount of roaches
(almost always i get the third, but am unable to go further)
If you want to approximately hit the 8min timing, your gates have to go down at sth around 6:30, I guess it's not a problem if you put one less gate in order to attack faster.
I may try this during my next PvZ. the way the build works reminds me of the Korean 4 Gate from PvP. Its basically a 2 base version of that build off an FFE.
Okay... so in my personal experience, this build is really bad... At least when people do idiotic, unexpected shit in diamond. I had one guy take a third hatch and arbitrarily stop droning at 8 drones for the 3rd, and start massing roaches. Needless to say, he had 20+ roaches before I could make much happen. I had another guy blindly go 3 spines at nat and 3 at 3rd and mass ling (okay) into hydras (not ok)... One other guy canceled his third hatch right before it finished and roach allinned me after seeing no gas at my nat because "it could only be warp prism zealot play." In two games, I couldn't use the single stalker to deny scouting by two overlords right when the gates were supposed to go down, and I had to delay them by a full minute while I cleaned up. Needless to say that failed. I'm probably just horrible, but I'm not sure to do with all of this wonky stuff thrown at me, lol...
I've used this build around 10 times with different reactions in game from my opponent. All 10 times, the end result was me winning with the build. Now, as a random player, I'm probably overthinking this, but I have a question:
Without assuming a massive gateway all in and without maphacks, how in the fuck is a zerg supposed to hold this off? Even if he scouts the Artosis Gateway Flower, he won't have enough time to put down spines and react in order to defeat this.
On July 31 2012 12:07 NoisyNinja wrote: I've used this build around 10 times with different reactions in game from my opponent. All 10 times, the end result was me winning with the build. Now, as a random player, I'm probably overthinking this, but I have a question:
Without assuming a massive gateway all in and without maphacks, how in the fuck is a zerg supposed to hold this off? Even if he scouts the Artosis Gateway Flower, he won't have enough time to put down spines and react in order to defeat this.
So I've had the opposite experience (as I posted above), and I'm wondering... when did your pushes hit? Maybe mine were late? What level are you playing at?
Without assuming a massive gateway all in and without maphacks, how in the fuck is a zerg supposed to hold this off? Even if he scouts the Artosis Gateway Flower, he won't have enough time to put down spines and react in order to defeat this.
with the lack of gas at the natural, the zerg just has to sacc the overlord at an earlier time. all-ins like these have been popular for a couple months and zergs just have been getting their roach warren earlier.
also, on some maps like cloud, the zerg can see both main gases and if he sees nothing mining, he'll know something is coming.
I feel like it might be better to take one gas semi earlier (like around 14 or 15) and get a stalker out / maybe a faster +1? but then getting a 2nd gas only for a little bit and then putting guys back on minerals hahah.
1) A very similar build is done by MC, except it is off of 7 gateways and hits at ~7:25 (no +1), which I feel is a much better time since 8:00 is when most Zerg are going to start massing units anyway.
2) As a Zerg, this build is easy to counter by following a few steps: 1) If I don't see gas at the natural by 7:00, I build extra overlords and pool larvae 2) No gas by 7:15, I make nothing but units 3) No gas by 7:30 and I drop a spine at my third. Come at me bro =D
If the your attack fails then the Zerg should just be able to over run you with lings and roaches.
NOTE: I build gas at 5:50 and roach warren/evo at 6:45. It sacrifices a few drones, but leaves me safe to just about any early shenanigans like this and, in my experience, Protoss ALWAYS 2 base all in, so the lost economy is always worth it.
On July 31 2012 12:07 NoisyNinja wrote: I've used this build around 10 times with different reactions in game from my opponent. All 10 times, the end result was me winning with the build. Now, as a random player, I'm probably overthinking this, but I have a question:
Without assuming a massive gateway all in and without maphacks, how in the fuck is a zerg supposed to hold this off? Even if he scouts the Artosis Gateway Flower, he won't have enough time to put down spines and react in order to defeat this.
So I've had the opposite experience (as I posted above), and I'm wondering... when did your pushes hit? Maybe mine were late? What level are you playing at?
Diamond. I dont pull off of gas which allows for me to get armor and stalkers, which eliminates roach kiting. I hit around 8-9 minutes although I dont really pay attention to time. Other than not pulling off of gas, I follow the build given here.
I was actually going to suggest taking only 1 gas, but doing it slightly earlier. 12 gates might be pushing your luck or maybe seal the deal even sooner? Also, what if the zerg opts to stay on 2-base and gets roach/hydra? Would this still be effective?
I was trying to fend this off last night. Went really badly.
I saw a bunch (12+) zealots coming in and morphed in baneling and threw down a additional spines. My three spines and banes made short work of the zealots. And i was like "AHA! Victory! That'll teach you Toss"
I thought he'd have learnt his lesson and stopped his shenanigans but he kept sending more and more and more zealots!
LOL. I was like WHEN WILL THIS END.
It looked like a stalemate but he eventually made headway. lol.
I play terran (mstrs) but like to offrace as toss and vs zerg I use this build. However, I keep on mining gas for twilight and charge. My attack hits at about 8.40 but with +1 and with charge.. It's so fun to watch how they try to kite zealots but really they can't .. anyways, I never lost with this build so far but I guess just didn't meet good zergs yet.
Hey guys - so it has been half a year since I wrote this guide, and my good friend and teammate Moosegills told me about a variant of this build he saw in the NASL. The game was Bischu vs ViBe, for anyone who has a season pass if you want to watch the VoD.
The way Bischu did this build was off of a Gateway expand - I don't have a season pass so I can't make a super detailed build order for it but here's the basics:
Start off with gateway opening - standard 13 gate, 14 gas, 17 core. Only put 2 guys on gas, and stop mining gas at 100 (for a single stalker and for warp gate).
Build a Nexus after the stalker is started as soon as you can afford it, cut probes at 24 (12 at each base, I believe - although you can experiment with having 16 at one base and 8 at the other and see if that income feels stronger), then add 5 gates and set up proxy pylons and warp in lots of zealots.
It's like a smaller version of this, that hits faster and is done off of a gateway expand. If anyone tries out this build, let us know in here how it goes for you! Happy zealot-ing~
On October 08 2012 07:25 RemarK wrote: Hey guys - so it has been half a year since I wrote this guide, and my good friend and teammate Moosegills told me about a variant of this build he saw in the NASL. The game was Bischu vs ViBe, for anyone who has a season pass if you want to watch the VoD.
The way Bischu did this build was off of a Gateway expand - I don't have a season pass so I can't make a super detailed build order for it but here's the basics:
Start off with gateway opening - standard 13 gate, 14 gas, 17 core. Only put 2 guys on gas, and stop mining gas at 100 (for a single stalker and for warp gate).
Build a Nexus after the stalker is started as soon as you can afford it, cut probes at 24 (12 at each base, I believe - although you can experiment with having 16 at one base and 8 at the other and see if that income feels stronger), then add 5 gates and set up proxy pylons and warp in lots of zealots.
It's like a smaller version of this, that hits faster and is done off of a gateway expand. If anyone tries out this build, let us know in here how it goes for you! Happy zealot-ing~
this build is genius, in case anyone is wondering.
Bischu fucked up his engagements though (or Vibe had really good engagements) and was able to mass produce roach ling at the cost of droning to surround Bischu's zealots.
The success of the all-in is therefore more heavily focused on how greedy the Zerg is being. Which should be a lot, since they're Zerg and can take 3 bases before a pool and get away with it.
CCalms did the gateway expand variant of it today in a tournament match vs team prOperty - here is the VoD, it's the last game in the series on Entombed Valley:
Many thanks for that enlightening OP. I'm ashamed to admit I never even considered attacking the production capabilities of the Zerg instead of trying to brute force my way through. This is really really fun.
I've won most games with it where there were no other complicating factors(such as got zergling harassed for a long time in my natural one game).
One problem I've had is deciding what to do if I manage to do heavy damage such as completing killing their third, but their roaches hit critical mass to where my zealots can't make any headway. Have I just lost the game at this point, or is killing the third enough damage to keep playing it out?
Also, perhaps the biggest question I have..is doing the /dance emote optional or required upon victory?
For what it's worth, I've tried this build approx. ten times and it's only happened once that the opponent didn't concede and tried to attack me with his roach force after losing his third. I massed cannons at my nat and ended up winning with a blink stalker push shortly thereafter. But then I'm just a silly EU diamond.
On October 26 2012 19:10 Demicore wrote: For what it's worth, I've tried this build approx. ten times and it's only happened once that the opponent didn't concede and tried to attack me with his roach force after losing his third. I massed cannons at my nat and ended up winning with a blink stalker push shortly thereafter. But then I'm just a silly EU diamond.
You have to do more damage than just kill the third with this, because you aren't mining gas at all for so long.