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6 Gate All in PvT
![[image loading]](http://files.tazerenix.com/IMG1.jpg) CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGE!
About Me:
Hi guys, I'm Tazerenix, a mid-high Masters Protoss on NA and a mid Diamond on Korea. I'm not the greatest player in the world, but generally have a reasonable understanding of the game, so whilst what I say has been played with and used by others, don't take my word as the bible truth, test it out yourself!
It is also of note that I may not end up practicing what I preach in my example replays, as, through writing this guide, I have realized that my theory behind the 6 gate is a lot cleaner than my execution, however the general ideas all remain the same, and the build is definitely still viable.
About the build:
Unlike PvZ, there is a remarkable lack of allin two base timings in the PvT matchup, the majority of which are based around getting 3 or 4 immortals and busting ramps or getting out two colossus and hitting before vikings are out.
The 6 Gate allin is a gateway based allin that can be used to acquire a free win against greedy terrans, and, in the case of good force field and micro, a solid allin against non-greedy terrans. The goal of the 6 Gate is to overwhelm the terran player at about the 9:30 mark with a large number of gateway units, using force field to stop bunker repair and trap MM against your zealots.
When to use this allin:
The 6 gate should be used against confirmed gasless terran openings, or when you have a very strong feeling the terran is going to gasless expand, such as scouting a terran first on a 4 player map and having him already walled in with two supply depots and a barracks, implying that those minerals could not have been spent on a refinery also without significant worker cutting.
Since determining builds is covered by other guides such as kcdc's 1 Gate FE guides, I will mostly skip this part, but will emphasize that if you see a terran who has walled in, but you are unsure of whether or not he has taken gas, I would strongly advise you NOT to use the 6 gate allin, as he could very well be hiding tech behind his wall.
The 6 gate should NOT be used against confirmed gassing terrans. Whilst it is possible that you could get a win with the 6 gate against gas openings such as 1 rax reactor expand or 1 rax tech lab expand, the tech advantage gained from gas builds as a terran, although negligible against more macro and tech focused protoss openings, can become overpowering against a gateway based allin off two bases. Another reason why this build is particularly bad against gas openings is that it flat-out skips detection, and so if the terran is secretly hiding banshees behind his wall, then, for lack of better description, you're fucked.
In terms of maps, the 6 gate works best on maps with open naturals, to allow more surface area for zealots against bunkers and units, and for more effective force fields. Maps I like to 6 gate on include Entombed, Antiga, TDA, Metropolis (if you can snipe the rocks), Daybreak and Metalopolis. Whilst it can still work on maps like Shakuras, Cloud kingdom and Ohana, it is significantly easier for terrans to hold as they can simply wall off the natural with three bunkers, minimizing zealot surface area.
The Opening:
The opening behind the 6 gate allin is based around getting a fast two base economic standpoint from which to power up to 6 gates and attack from. My prefered opening is the very safe (against gasless expands) MC 1 Gate FE , however any other form of safe 1 Gate FE or nexus first play that puts you in a decent position economically is also viable, for example skipping the zealot or stalker to get a faster nexus.
Openings I find viable:
- MC 1 Gate FE
- Genius 1 Gate FE
- kcdc's 1 Gate FEs (1, 2)
- Two gas 1 Gate FE (as done by HuK): + Show Spoiler +
The Build Order 9 Pylon 12 Gateway 14 Gas 15 Pylon 16 Cybercore 18 Gas 20 Stalker & Warpgate Tech 24 Sentry 30 Nexus (in some order) 2x Gates & Pylon & Robo Replay Examples http://drop.sc/packs/241/d - Pack of 12 Replays of Huk from MLG Raleigh 2011 (he does this opening in all 12 games in this mini pack)
- CreatorPrime 1 Gate FE: + Show Spoiler +
9 Pylon (on 4 spawn scout here)
@100% Pylon Chronoboost nexus
@100% Chrono chronoboost nexus again (If you scouted on 9 unless your optimizing worker mining you might want to hold off on this chronoboost until after your gateway and get your assimilator a bit later at 15)
13 Gateway (on 2 spawn map scout here)
14 Assimilator
15 Pylon
Chronoboost nexus third time
17 Core
18 Zealot
@100% Core Get a stalker from Gate and Chrono
@100% Core Start Warp gate (no chrono)
@50% Stalker push out to their base with first zealot
@100% Stalker send with zealot to enemy base
24 Pylon
26 Nexus (cut probes for a bit)
26 Assimilator
26 Sentry (chronoboosted)
Add on 2 gates as your pushing with your zealot and stalker
- Axslav's Nexus First
- Any other Nexus First or 1 Gate FE that you find viable and generally safe against gasless terrans.
It is also important to note that the power of the 6 gate rests in the sentries, so an expansion build that basically skips any sentries entirely up until the time you add your 4, 5 and 6 gateways isn't particularly good (I don't know if there even are any, but if they do exist, don't use them!!!).
Playing out the build up until the attack:
After your expansion of what ever variety you choose, you should be left with three gateways (maybe two if you nexus first), a couple of stalkers and a few sentries and zealots.
If you haven't already, take your second gas in your main, and as you max out on 16 probes in your main base, rally both of your nexii to your natural expansion.
Whilst you go up to 16 probes at your natural expansion (chrono when you can), at around 7 minutes (where you should be approaching 50 supply), you'll want to throw down three (or in the case that you only have two gateways, four) extra gateways. Most terrans will scan your main base at a position that is close to the pylons which they scouted initially, at about the 7:30 to 8 minute mark, so a good idea is to place your extra gateways in a location that isn't likely to be spotted. On Antiga, I tend to proxy them at the third base, or you can hide them in a corner of your base somewhere.
Do not take the gas at your natural, as you won't be needing them. The gas surplus that tends to build up from 1 gate FEs as you saturate your natural should be spent on extra sentries, you can go so far as to get 8, 9 or 10 if you have the money for it.
Begin to push out at around the 8 minute mark, taking a probe with your gateway army (which should consist of about 7 or 8 sentries, a handful of zealots and 3 or 4 stalkers) and placing a pylon or two in close proximity to your opponents base. It may be a good idea to bring a probe out before you push out, assuming you have maintained map control, for a swifter push.
As you set up outside the terrans base preparing for your push, send up your probe to try and get an idea of how the terrans army and defenses look.
The Attack:
Upon checking the terrans army, make judgement on how comfortable you feel pushing up with what you have.
Around the 9:30 to 10 minute mark you want to push into the terrans natural expansion with your zealots in front, sentries in the middle and stalkers placed at the back.
![[image loading]](http://files.tazerenix.com/IMG2.jpg) Zealot sentry stalker, zealot sentry stalker, zealot sentry sta-
Place force fields behind any terran bunkers to stop repairs and make sure your guardian shields are covering as many zealots as possible. Use your stalkers (which you should have around 6 or 7 of, depending of course on when you hit) to focus down any forward marauders, but try not to waste shots if you can.
Trap as much of the terrans army as you can with your sentries, and keep laying down force fields to prevent SCV from reaching your ranged units.
From this point, if you have lost all of your zealots and don't feel that pressing your advantage will win you the fight right now, pull back, chronoing your warp gates, and warp in one or two rounds of zealots before attacking again. One of the key points in the attack is to minimize the loss of ranged units.
![[image loading]](http://files.tazerenix.com/IMG3.jpg) An example of just how NOT to engage with the 6 Gate
In the event that you lose your entire army whilst retreating, or you do almost no damage losing all your zealots (due to bad force fields, or otherwise), your best bet at winning is to try and play greedy and hope the terran does not attack you, whilst teching to colossus.
If you executed well and the terran was particularly greedy, you will probably flat out win, or the terran will run back to his main base.
In the event that the terran runs to his main, prioritize sniping the flying Orbital over killing SCV, and attack up the ramp as soon as you can. It is important that you attack up the ramp quickly as with small ramps and some bunkers, it quickly becomes a meat grinder that you really don't want to launch yourself into.
Congratulations, you just learned the 6 Gate allin in PvT.
Replays: (thanks to raVensc2 for helping me search for them)
http://www.tazerenix.com/replays/140
This push was with a 7 gate, however the same build was followed, if you are feeling like you are floating a bit more than you'd like, feel free to add an extra gateway to pack in a little more punch when you attack.
http://www.tazerenix.com/replays/202
http://www.tazerenix.com/replays/365
I lost in this game partly because I pussied out of the allin seeing the three depots in front of his bunkers, making a nexus, and hence having 5 less zealots than I would have liked, and also because my force fields and stalker positioning were generally poor.
http://www.tazerenix.com/replays/181
Again this game was lost because of poor force fields and a lack of stalker fire power. If I had waited an extra warp in cycle or two, I would have had a much stronger chance of breaking the terran and winning.
http://www.tazerenix.com/replays/362
http://www.tazerenix.com/replays/225
If there is anything that you think I need to add to the guide, or if you have professional VODs or your own replays of this build that you think should be added, feel free to PM me.
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You should go 12 sentry, that way you can wear their defenses down with zealot sentry then reinforce with stalkers and still have enough ff to do everything you need. I think it's bad to mix stalkers and zealot because with zealot you want to trap units with ff and with stalker you want to split units. Also take gas at nat when you move out and get a tc for transition imo.
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MC has been doing this all in for awhile now, tearing up top terrans including mvp...but good that u have this guide now to show ppl!
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On April 10 2012 22:11 Arcanefrost wrote:
You should go 12 sentry, that way you can wear their defenses down with zealot sentry then reinforce with stalkers and still have enough ff to do everything you need. I think it's bad to mix stalkers and sentry because with zealot you want to trap units with ff and with stalker you want to split units. Also take gas at nat when you move out and get a tc for transition imo.
The reason I like to get stalkers out is that they do a lot of damage against bunkers from a range and can focus down marauders that escaped your force fields, however a mass zealot sentry style can be just as potent.
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From the looks of it, I feel like "puzzle's zealot sentry immortal push" is a lot safer and more efficient vs gasless expand.
Immortals tear through any structures (bunkers or depots) as well as nullify any stray marauders.
Can you please state some clear advantages of pure gw vs. gw+immortals?
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Very original build!
Never seen that on the ladder, I'll be sure to defend it as well as I can haha :D
I hope it doesn't become too frequent.
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On April 10 2012 22:33 moQbara wrote:From the looks of it, I feel like " puzzle's zealot sentry immortal push" is a lot safer and more efficient vs gasless expand. Immortals tear through any structures (bunkers or depots) as well as nullify any stray marauders. Can you please state some clear advantages of pure gw vs. gw+immortals?
I must admit, I had not seen that particular build, it seems extremely strong, particularly for the time that it hits. I feel like the advantage (if any) that the pure gateway variation has over the immortal based build is that against heavy marine/light marauder forces, an overwhelming gateway force can be more potent than an immortal based force.
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I also think you should either be going zealot/sentry and just trap everything OR go sentry/stalker and cut off units piece by piece. Having an even mix doesn't really let you use your army effectively.
Also for most purposes i agree the variation with some immortals is just stronger if the map isn't that big. Immortals really help taking down bunkers quickly and the robo adds backup detection / transitions in case you made a misread. For example if you do this build and you find they did some weird variation with tanks after expand or whatever you are somewhat screwed, with robo you can transition much more smoothly if needed.
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On April 10 2012 22:58 Markwerf wrote:
I also think you should either be going zealot/sentry and just trap everything OR go sentry/stalker and cut off units piece by piece. Having an even mix doesn't really let you use your army effectively.
Also for most purposes i agree the variation with some immortals is just stronger if the map isn't that big. Immortals really help taking down bunkers quickly and the robo adds backup detection / transitions in case you made a misread. For example if you do this build and you find they did some weird variation with tanks after expand or whatever you are somewhat screwed, with robo you can transition much more smoothly if needed.
Yeah your army composition in a 6/7/8 gate is pretty important. Sentry/Stalker is better if you're trying to break multiple bunkers since you can trap his units behind the bunkers and focus the bunkers down first, then follow up with zealots. Zealot/sentry is better vs if there is only like 1 bunker.
In regards to the OP, I'm wary to say there is a end-all-be-all build order for a PvT gateway all-in. There are many variations which may seem slight but can make a huge difference. You can go 2 gas version 6-gate and hit faster, or you can go 7/8 gate version and hit harder but slightly later. The number of gates you need also depends on when you cut probes, if you get your 3rd/4th gas, what type of army composition you're going to use, etc.
In regards to the 2-base immortal bust, I also feel this is a lot stronger than gateway all-ins if your plan was to bust the terran from the beginning of the game. Nowadays I really only use gateway all-ins as an "on-the-fly" option based on how the game goes. For example between the 6-7 min mark I'm poking his front with some stalkers and what not and based on his marine count, lack of bunkers, etc. I may just go for the gateway all-in instead of grabbing my 3rd or throwing down a robo. So the strength of the gateway all-in IMO isn't its pure brute strength since it is much weaker than the immortal bust, but moreso in it's flexibility. On the flipside the 2-base immortal bust is a very rigid, and at times quite risky BO that is vulnerable after they get their expand and robo before 2nd and 3rd gates. A mass hellion opening would devastate this build at that point in the game for example.
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I thought that 4-6 gateway timings had been figured out. Read as scout for proxies and hold Xel'naga Towers.
Kinda die to fast Medivac-drops or Siege Tank openings. My opinion on the matter, just kinda strikes me as risky unless your against a greedy or slow tech Terran build; that are rare outside of Korean.
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The build should hit earlier than this tbh... like 8minutes at LATEST. You don't want to hit after he gets stim.
some notes: this is different from the immortal all in because the terran doesn't see it coming, the immortal all in is quite clearly 1base, since the terran scouts double gas... they will be sure to scan to see whether you have a natural.
With this build even if they scan they won't see much if you've split your gateways into 2 locations and stalkers will deny them from scouting the proxy pylon if you have good stutter step micro.
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On April 11 2012 01:35 Protossking wrote:
The build should hit earlier than this tbh... like 8minutes at LATEST. You don't want to hit after he gets stim.
some notes: this is different from the immortal all in because the terran doesn't see it coming, the immortal all in is quite clearly 1base, since the terran scouts double gas... they will be sure to scan to see whether you have a natural.
With this build even if they scan they won't see much if you've split your gateways into 2 locations and stalkers will deny them from scouting the proxy pylon if you have good stutter step micro.
There are 2-base versions of immortal busts. But like I said above to hit the proper timing you must go robo before 2nd and 3rd gates which is in itself quite risky.
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On April 10 2012 22:35 ZenithM wrote:
Very original build!
Never seen that on the ladder, I'll be sure to defend it as well as I can haha :D
I hope it doesn't become too frequent.
i thought you were being sarcastic, but i kept reading and i'm confused
edit:
On April 11 2012 01:35 Protossking wrote:
The build should hit earlier than this tbh... like 8minutes at LATEST. You don't want to hit after he gets stim.
some notes: this is different from the immortal all in because the terran doesn't see it coming, the immortal all in is quite clearly 1base, since the terran scouts double gas... they will be sure to scan to see whether you have a natural.
With this build even if they scan they won't see much if you've split your gateways into 2 locations and stalkers will deny them from scouting the proxy pylon if you have good stutter step micro.
I don't think you can hit that early... you won't have enough units. But yes your point is very true, you are playing off a tight timing window with this all-in as you don't want the terran to have stim or medivacs so you have to kill him fast.
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On April 11 2012 01:51 Forbidden17 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 22:35 ZenithM wrote:
Very original build!
Never seen that on the ladder, I'll be sure to defend it as well as I can haha :D
I hope it doesn't become too frequent. i thought you were being sarcastic, but i kept reading and i'm confused edit: Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:35 Protossking wrote:
The build should hit earlier than this tbh... like 8minutes at LATEST. You don't want to hit after he gets stim.
some notes: this is different from the immortal all in because the terran doesn't see it coming, the immortal all in is quite clearly 1base, since the terran scouts double gas... they will be sure to scan to see whether you have a natural.
With this build even if they scan they won't see much if you've split your gateways into 2 locations and stalkers will deny them from scouting the proxy pylon if you have good stutter step micro. I don't think you can hit that early... you won't have enough units. But yes your point is very true, you are playing off a tight timing window with this all-in as you don't want the terran to have stim or medivacs so you have to kill him fast.
Most PvT gateway all-ins hit b/w 8-9 mins from what I've seen. 9:30 is pretty late because medivacs could concievably be out on the field at that point which really boosts the terran army's strength.
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if terran walls with supply depot and behind supply depot he puts 2 bunkers you are soo death .. not worthing terrans will just start to build walls with supply depot and barrakcs same as in tvz
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On April 11 2012 02:17 xsnac wrote:
if terran walls with supply depot and behind supply depot he puts 2 bunkers you are soo death .. not worthing terrans will just start to build walls with supply depot and barrakcs same as in tvz
In this situation you just fake and make him pull scvs while you go storm and double forge. I always sack the probe building the forward pylon to check whether he isnt making a depot wall, that way you can decide not to commit.
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Tried it alot today, not really that good, most terrans are good at defending it or they simply put supply depots in front of bunker.
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On April 11 2012 02:14 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:51 Forbidden17 wrote:On April 10 2012 22:35 ZenithM wrote:
Very original build!
Never seen that on the ladder, I'll be sure to defend it as well as I can haha :D
I hope it doesn't become too frequent. i thought you were being sarcastic, but i kept reading and i'm confused edit: On April 11 2012 01:35 Protossking wrote:
The build should hit earlier than this tbh... like 8minutes at LATEST. You don't want to hit after he gets stim.
some notes: this is different from the immortal all in because the terran doesn't see it coming, the immortal all in is quite clearly 1base, since the terran scouts double gas... they will be sure to scan to see whether you have a natural.
With this build even if they scan they won't see much if you've split your gateways into 2 locations and stalkers will deny them from scouting the proxy pylon if you have good stutter step micro. I don't think you can hit that early... you won't have enough units. But yes your point is very true, you are playing off a tight timing window with this all-in as you don't want the terran to have stim or medivacs so you have to kill him fast. Most PvT gateway all-ins hit b/w 8-9 mins from what I've seen. 9:30 is pretty late because medivacs could concievably be out on the field at that point which really boosts the terran army's strength.
I have yet to see a 6gate hit at the 8min mark without making some serious cuts. 8:30? Sure, it can be done. 8:00? Please provide a link.
edit:
On April 11 2012 07:19 PurpleHazex wrote:
Tried it alot today, not really that good, most terrans are good at defending it or they simply put supply depots in front of bunker.
I don't know what league you're in but I use a slight variant of this and I can tell you the majority of Terrans at the mid-high master level on NA have no idea how to stop this. You will definitely have >50% winrate up to this level against Terrans.
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I love this all-in and it's something that I've had a lot of success with. However, I disagree with some of the points you've made in this guide.
First of all, I think this all-in comes up against several problems when it is used against a gasless-expanding Terran who actually knows what they're doing:
1) Good gasless-expanding Terrans will sim-city their Bunkers with Supply Depots, making it incredibly hard to kill them with Zealots.
2) Good gasless-expanding Terrans will have Stim out by the time this attack hits.
3) Good gasless-expanding Terrans will scout what you're up to and pre-emptively get ready to repair by the time this all-in hits. Placing SCVs in front of Bunkers instead of behind them (or by having a good sim-city) will make it hard to break Bunkers with Zealots since you'll have to kill the SCVs first (forcefields won't help, they'll stop Zealots getting to the Bunkers).
4) Good gasless-expanding Terrans will have a massive economic lead over you, making it impossible to recover from the failed all-in.
Now, I'm not saying that this attack doesn't work against gasless-expanding Terrans because I know from experience that it does. I'm just saying that good (i.e. not Diamond level, like me) Terrans shouldn't be losing to it if they are diligent with their scouting and create a good sim-city at their natural. As such, this build is actually at its most effective against a Terran who opens with 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. This opening prevents them from being able to sim-city their natural (since they don't take it until relatively late) as well as preventing them from possessing the economy required to churn out enough units to defend this push.
(Aside: Examples of the 6gate all-in being used against 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab Terrans can be found in my 2gate FE thread. It is one of my go-to transitions when using that opening, so I have a lot of experience with it. You'll see in that thread that I have used the 6gate against gasless Terrans, but find it more effective to go for a 1base 5gate all-in  ).
Second of all, this build does not require Stalkers. Stalkers are absolutely trash against Barracks units. You should only have 3/4 Stalkers (however many you made with your opening), with the rest of your army being made up of Zealots and Sentries. Forcefields make up for the range disadvantage you have against the Terran army; there is no need for Stalkers if your Forcefields and Zealot control are good enough.
Thirdly, you do not need nearly that many Probes to support a 6gate all-in. You only need 30. Why? Because 16+6+8=30 (16 on main mineral line, 6 in gas, 8 on natural mineral line) is more than enough Probes to support 6gateways worth of Zealot production and, as I already said, you shouldn't be reinforcing with anything other than Zealot/Sentry.
Another problem I have with this guide is that you're pushing far too late. This is probably because you're trying to get too many units/Stalkers before attacking, and also because you're getting too many Probes before choosing to attack. This attack can hit around 8:00-9:00 if you're playing it right, making it much harder for the Terran to prepare for it properly. Like I already said, I use this all-in from a 2gate opening and can hit around 9:00... from a 1gate FE you should be able to hit even sooner.
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On April 11 2012 21:33 Sated wrote:I love this all-in and it's something that I've had a lot of success with. However, I disagree with some of the points you've made in this guide. First of all, I think this all-in comes up against several problems when it is used against a gasless-expanding Terran who actually knows what they're doing: 1) Good gasless-expanding Terrans will sim-city their Bunkers with Supply Depots, making it incredibly hard to kill them with Zealots. 2) Good gasless-expanding Terrans will have Stim out by the time this attack hits. 3) Good gasless-expanding Terrans will scout what you're up to and pre-emptively get ready to repair by the time this all-in hits. Placing SCVs in front of Bunkers instead of behind them (or by having a good sim-city) will make it hard to break Bunkers with Zealots since you'll have to kill the SCVs first (forcefields won't help, they'll stop Zealots getting to the Bunkers). 4) Good gasless-expanding Terrans will have a massive economic lead over you, making it impossible to recover from the failed all-in. Now, I'm not saying that this attack doesn't work against gasless-expanding Terrans because I know from experience that it does. I'm just saying that good ( i.e. not Diamond level, like me) Terrans shouldn't be losing to it if they are diligent with their scouting and create a good sim-city at their natural. As such, this build is actually at its most effective against a Terran who opens with 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. This opening prevents them from being able to sim-city their natural (since they don't take it until relatively late) as well as preventing them from possessing the economy required to churn out enough units to defend this push. (Aside: Examples of the 6gate all-in being used against 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab Terrans can be found in my 2gate FE thread. It is one of my go-to transitions when using that opening, so I have a lot of experience with it. You'll see in that thread that I have used the 6gate against gasless Terrans, but find it more effective to go for a 1base 5gate all-in ). Second of all, this build does not require Stalkers. Stalkers are absolutely trash against Barracks units. You should only have 3/4 Stalkers (however many you made with your opening), with the rest of your army being made up of Zealots and Sentries. Forcefields make up for the range disadvantage you have against the Terran army; there is no need for Stalkers if your Forcefields and Zealot control are good enough. Thirdly, you do not need nearly that many Probes to support a 6gate all-in. You only need 30. Why? Because 16+6+8=30 (16 on main mineral line, 6 in gas, 8 on natural mineral line) is more than enough Probes to support 6gateways worth of Zealot production and, as I already said, you shouldn't be reinforcing with anything other than Zealot/Sentry. Another problem I have with this guide is that you're pushing far too late. This is probably because you're trying to get too many units/Stalkers before attacking, and also because you're getting too many Probes before choosing to attack. This attack can hit around 8:00-9:00 if you're playing it right, making it much harder for the Terran to prepare for it properly. Like I already said, I use this all-in from a 2gate opening and can hit around 9:00... from a 1gate FE you should be able to hit even sooner.
Some good points. My guide is very much a trial for myself to get feed back on my build just as much as its a guide for others to use.
I discovered just today after having some feedback from higher level players that it really does it a lot later than it should, and upon testing, I discovered I can hit a whole minute earlier if I do it right. I'll definitely try to rework it all later.
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