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[G] DRG's Roach/Ling/Bane "All-in" (Or is it?)
Good day ladies and gentlemen of Team Liquid, I'd like to thank you all for reading my newest Zerg guide. I'm thrilled to present a style popularized by "The Final Boss" himself, DongRaeGu.
Naturally, there is a lot of talk over DRG's recent victory over Alicia (Protoss) in the MLG Spring Championship, but I'd actually like to take a step back to analyze what has become one of the most common and powerful Zerg vs Terran timing attacks - the 8:45-9:30 Roach/Ling/Baneling. There seems to be mixed opinions from casters and players - some have referred to this style as "all-in", others call it an "aggressive opening." Regardless of which side you stand on, we cannot deny that it is an effective style used in tournament play by top-notch Zerg players like Stephano, Sheth, vioLet, and of course, DRG.
Reddit Link:
+ Show Spoiler +
The Basic Concept:
+ Show Spoiler +Click Here to download the replay that the screenshots below are taken from. This is an introductory analysis of the 2 hatchery, 2 gas timing attack which generally arrives at the Terran expansion between 8:40-9:30 with 8-12 roaches, 8-10 banelings, and 20+ zerglings. Since this composition functions well against low-tech units like marines/hellions/marauders, it is generally used in response to Terrans who take a fast expansion without gas. However, the push comes early enough that you can often trade armies against Tank/Banshee builds to equalize the game. There are multiple variations of the build, but they tend to follow this basic structure: 1: Go hatch-first and drone scout.
2: Get your first gas, two queens, and a few zerglings to defend/scout again.
3: Defend yourself early - optional third queen, spine crawler, additional zerglings.
4: Use your first 100 gas on zergling speed and continue droning.
5: Get your second gas and roach warren at 44 supply.
6: Produce additional overlords (3-4 are needed for roaches)
7: Build 8-12 roaches, a baneling nest, and zerglings.
8: When the roaches complete, move out. If possible, run lings ahead to morph earlier/closer to your opponent's base.
9: Morph in and gather up.
10: Bust then reinforce or transition.
DRG's Style
+ Show Spoiler +Click Here to view DRG vs MMA from MLG Providence. As you know, MvP's DongRaeGu was the first professional to utilize this build in competitive tournaments. DRG opts for both a later drone scout (13) and a later gas (23) than most players, which allows him to secure a slight economic lead in the early stages. By building 3-4 sets of lings before the roaches, he's also able to morph in his banelings to bust earlier than most: 9 Roaches, 11 Banelings, 20~ Speedlings arrive at 8:45: The Build Order:9Overlord 13Scout 15Hatch 16Pool 17Overlord 17Queen x 2 (Double Inject) 21Lings x 4 (2 Sets) 23 First gas (4:00) Drones to 26 26 Overlord Drones to 31 31 Overlord Drones to 36 36 Zergling speed (first 100 gas, keep drones harvesting gas) 36 Overlord Drones to 42 42 2nd Gas/Roach Warren Drones to 44 Overlord x 3 Baneling nest when warren is halfway done (6:30) 44 Lings x 6 (Total of 9-12 Speedlings to move out across the map and morph into banelings) 47 Roaches x 9 65+ Lings 11 Banelings morphing by 8:20 The Transition:Start droning Lair and 3rd/4th gases started (9:00) Macro Hatch (10:00) Mix Drone/Ling Production, make sure you have map vision and at least 2-3 banelings if you're building drones. Baneling Speed and Spire when Lair finishes (11:00) Third Base (12:15) Muta Production by 12:30 with +1 Air Attack, deny drops/harass while you mass zerglings/banelings/mutas/upgrades 14:00 double evolution chamber Once you reach a large enough ling/baneling/muta army off 2bases with a macro hatch, start saturating your 3rd (Don't rush this!). Start a 4th by 17Minutes and use your large zergling/baneling/mutalisk army to delay/deny the terran's third. Eventually Infestation pit for infestors and hive tech.
vioLet's Variation:
+ Show Spoiler +Click Here to view vioLet vs Demuslim from IEM São Paulo. Empire's vioLet is known for his aggressive style of timings and counter attacks, so it's no surprise that he incorporates builds like this. vioLet plays the opening "safer" than DRG by drone scouting at 1:15, going gas-before-pool for early zergling speed, and building 3 sets of zerglings as soon as the pool is done. While these precautions do help in the event of early pressure, the reduced economy forces him to build an earlier warren at 39 supply to hit with a smaller push at the same time as DRG's: 9 Roaches, 9 Banelings, 16 Lings arrive at 8:45The Build Order:10Overlord 10-11 Extractor Trick (The drone that built/cancelled extractor moves out to scout at 1:15) 15 Hatchery 16Gas 15Pool 18Overlord 18Queen x 2 22 Lings x 6 (3 Sets) Speed with first 100 gas (Remove 2 from gas until 6:00) 26 Overlord 31 Spine (5:30) 32 Overlord Drones to 36 (Refill gas at 6:00) 36 Overlord 36 Lings x 6 (3 Sets) 39 Roach Warren (6:15) 38 2nd Gas Drones to 41 41 Overlord x 3 41-57 Roaches x 9 / Baneling Nest 57+ Lings 9 Banelings morphing by 8:20 Note: vioLet does not transition and instead follows through with continued zergling/baneling production.
Sheth's Variation:
+ Show Spoiler +Click Here to view Sheth vs PuMa from IPL Liquid vs Evil Geniuses. Kudos to the nicest professional Zerg player out there, LiquidSheth, for showing that well-mannered players can open aggressively too! Although his push arrives about 30-45 seconds later than the others, he is able to create a few more roaches and banelings for a larger push at 9:30. With no attempt to place evolution chambers or a 3rd base, Sheth's timing is the most all-in version of this style: 12 Roaches, 12 Banelings, 28+ Speedlings arrive at 9:309Overlord 13Scout 15Hatchery 16Pool 16Gas (2 in gas) 17Overlord 17 Queen x 2 (Double Inject) 21 Lings x 4 (2Sets) Drones to 28 28 Overlord 28 Spine Drones to 31 31 Speed (First 100 Gas) 31 Overlord (Fill gas 5:30) Drones to 42 42 Supply 2nd gas 41 Supply 2-3 Sets of lings (If pressured by hellions) 42 Roach Warren (6:45) Drones to 44 44 Overlords x 3 44-68 Roaches (Roaches start around 7:45) 68 Overlord 68 Baneling Nest 68 Overlord x 3 68+ Lings Baneling morph at 9:00 Sheth does not transition, instead favours a continued zergling/baneling all-in.
Stephano's Variation:
+ Show Spoiler +Click Here to view Stephano vs PuMa from the Assembly ASUS ROG SemiFinals. Stephano goes for the most macro-oriented build and transition, opting to start an early third queen to spread creep as well as taking a third base at 8:20. Even though he starts such an early third, his roach/zergling/baneling timing hits at a comparable time with other pros: 10 Roaches, 8 Banelings, 24 Zerglings arrive at 9:00The Build Order:9Overlord Early Scout (10 Supply/1Min Mark) 15Hatch 16Pool 18Gas (For early ling speed, take drones out after you start the upgrade) 17Overlord 17Drone 18 Queen x 2, Lings x 4 (2 Sets) Drones to 26 26 Overlord Drones to 28 28 Queen/Overlord (Giving up to 44 supply) Drones to 33 33 Spine (~5:15/5:20) Drones to 36, refill gas 36 2nd Gas Drones to 44 44 Warren, Overlordsx4, Baneling nest (Replace drones to 44 supply) 44 Roaches x 10 (~7:15) 64+ Lings 8:20 3rd Base 8:30 8 Banelings morphing Transition: Early third base by 8:20 Double Evo Chamber by 10:00, back into drones around this time too. Take 3rd/4th gas after +1+1 started LOTS of creep through the center and to the 3rd Lair by about 11:30/12:00 (first 100 gas after +1+1) Infestation pit when Lair is done, Pathogen Glands and Hive immediately Eventual goal of Hive tech with three fully saturated bases and a macro hatch, max-out with fully-upgraded zergling, ultralisks, and infestors.
All-In (Or is it?):
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Do you think this style Roach/Ling/Baneling push is all-in?No, this push transitions well into the mid and late game. (149) 58% Yes, if the attack fails to do significant damage, you're too behind to transition. (109) 42% 258 total votes Your vote: Do you think this style Roach/Ling/Baneling push is all-in? (Vote): Yes, if the attack fails to do significant damage, you're too behind to transition. (Vote): No, this push transitions well into the mid and late game.
Guide Feedback:
+ Show Spoiler +If you read this guide, I ask that you please provide input about what you like and dislike about it. As always, your constructive comments and criticism are valued and appreciated! Poll: Are you happy with the content, structure, and style of this guide?5 - Excellent guide, relevant and concise information, interesting style. (93) 67% 4 - Solid guide, good analysis, pretty helpful. (24) 17% 1 - There is nothing to be learned from you, Tang. You're ruining eSports. (15) 11% 3 - Average guide, could be improved but probably will help some people. (5) 4% 2 - Some helpful material, overall not very informative. (2) 1% 139 total votes Your vote: Are you happy with the content, structure, and style of this guide? (Vote): 5 - Excellent guide, relevant and concise information, interesting style. (Vote): 4 - Solid guide, good analysis, pretty helpful. (Vote): 3 - Average guide, could be improved but probably will help some people. (Vote): 2 - Some helpful material, overall not very informative. (Vote): 1 - There is nothing to be learned from you, Tang. You're ruining eSports.
- Tang
Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.com
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<3 Tang, <3.
Here's VibE's version:
http://www.sixpoolgaming.com/videos/vibe-zvt-allin-strategy/
I like VibE's version because it hits at around 8:25, which can be cruicial if siege is researched.
It's basically along the lines of
blablabla speed, drones till 36 36 Warren, 2nd gas drone back to 36 36 3 Overlords 8-10 Roaches, THEN Baneling Nest Overlords, Lings morph banes
Control groups I use is one for army, one for banes, one for roaches.
Replay pack would help if you can get hands on.
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How does this work against players who don't get a fast third? Do they scout for quick third before committing to this attack?
'tis good guide tho, been lookin for early-mid game pressures against quick 3 CC.
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On June 12 2012 07:19 Mahtasooma wrote: Replay pack would help if you can get hands on. Absolutely! I will post additional replays and stream videos as they come in
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Great guide to this strat. Really helps with the timings and idea behind the attack. Can't wait for the next guide!
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haha nice thread title...
I would definitely argue this is only all-in if you actually morph all the banelings, make extra rounds of lings, and commit all the units to an attack. You can take a 3rd and tech behind this quite nicely without having to do damage, though most of the time you can kill a lot of army or workers with it. The reactor hellion/cloak banshee build is a soft counter, as are tank openers, but you can definitely still do some damage to them or even kill them on occasion.
I've been using this style and transitioning (often not ever morphing the banelings even unless I scout my opponent playing too greedy) for a lot of my ZvTs over the past few seasons, along with fast 3 hatch builds. Both openers have their advantages and I don't feel the roach/baneling build is gimmicky, it just requires good decision making.
The main thing you are vulnerable to if the attack doesn't do much damage would be drop play (especially in multiple prongs if you took a 3rd), so prepare for that.
I can provide some replays of the style if it would help, though there are a lot already out there from pros. ZENEX_Line had a great variety of ways to do this build that are worth looking at as well. In particular I noticed you didn't talk at all about the roach/baneling builds that delay gas until ~30 supply, then they get 3. DRG has used this style in several MLGs.
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i think this build is just dependent on the damage dealt either a good army trade or alot of worker kills with use of the ling / bane i wouldnt call it all in tho as i think even if u 1a u can still deal good damage to transition out of it
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Nice guide, was looking for something like this.
I wouldnt call it an all-in since I think its impossible for terran to defend it without heavy army or econ loss and zerg can easily secure third + drone hard after it, in worst scenario you are slightly behind.
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On June 12 2012 07:27 jaminski wrote: i think this build is just dependent on the damage dealt either a good army trade or alot of worker kills with use of the ling / bane i wouldnt call it all in tho as i think even if u 1a u can still deal good damage to transition out of it I agree, although it does require a certain level of micro and multitasking to transition effectively.
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can you tell me the difference with your other all in (can't find it right now), that was similar to this all in?
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On June 12 2012 08:13 chaosftw wrote: can you tell me the difference with your other all in (can't find it right now), that was similar to this all in? Do you mean the "Big Bust"? The roach warren goes down at 28 with that build, which makes it harder to transition than DRG's style which gets a 44 warren. However, the push arrives much earlier (8:20) so most tank builds don't finish siege mode.
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fyi, its "top-notch" not "top-knotch"
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On June 12 2012 08:33 mahi29 wrote: fyi, its "top-notch" not "top-knotch" Updated, thanks - I hate typeos
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My favourite variation is a recent build I saw Stephano doing at Redbull LAN, he hits as fast as your original "Big Bust" guide and has a healthy econ to back it up so transitions easier.
He puts down a 42 warren, puts down a 3rd at 8:00, and attacks at 8:20 with 8 roaches/9 banelings/16 zerglings. Much less zerglings but hits really fast and transitions really well.
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On June 12 2012 08:42 calvinL wrote: My favourite variation is a recent build I saw Stephano doing at Redbull LAN, he hits as fast as your original "Big Bust" guide and has a healthy econ to back it up so transitions easier.
He puts down a 42 warren, puts down a 3rd at 8:00, and attacks at 8:20 with 8 roaches/9 banelings/16 zerglings. Much less zerglings but hits really fast and transitions really well. Could you find a vod of that? I would like to try it.
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Jesus, what a well formatted guide. links to the VODs and breaking down by player/variation is great. it would be sick if you'd theory craft on when this build gets done. is it blind, or a response? what builds does it fair well against, what builds does it fail against? are there any scout timings (where the terran scouts you) that you'd consider abandoning the build? how important is siege timing, and how does one make such a read?
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On June 12 2012 09:01 Lobotomist wrote: Jesus, what a well formatted guide. links to the VODs and breaking down by player/variation is great. it would be sick if you'd theory craft on when this build gets done. is it blind, or a response? what builds does it fair well against, what builds does it fail against? are there any scout timings (where the terran scouts you) that you'd consider abandoning the build? how important is siege timing, and how does one make such a read? Thanks Lobotomist!
And those are all good questions. At the top level, this style of Roach/Ling/Baneling is generally a response to 1Rax gas-less FE and the reason is simple - fast tech banshee/siege tank builds can shut it down better than marines/hellions/medivacs. If your opponent goes 1-rax FE into hellions, it's nearly impossible for them to defend. Basically, a build order loss. At a none-pro level, I think this push is a viable opening against any build and a good way to practice multitasking.
As for scouting, you want to drone scout and then check the front once with zerglings to confirm hellions so you can build a spine. Other than that, there's no real information you need - I think saccing an overlord would actually be a waste considering your push will determine his tech choice (i.e. if he goes banshees, he'll need them to defend which gives you time to transition).
If the terran player gets a 13 gas and goes right into tanks, it's possible to get siege mode in time for this push but even then you can often trade moderately well or consider immediately pulling back and going straight for a third, drones, and +1/+1 like Stephano.
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Finally.
I've been waiting for this guide for months now
Thank you Mr All-In master Tang!
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[B]On June 12 2012 08:35 TangSC wrote: Updated, thanks - I hate typeos
I truly hope this is intended to be irony!
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On June 12 2012 09:37 Walitgon wrote:I truly hope this is intended to be irony! Haha yes.
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I really feel like u should have Symbol's version of this in the thread since i personally think he does it the best.
PS. Great Read thanks for an awesome guide
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I really love this guide and was wondering how to do this sort of timing push ever since MLG. We saw Stephano using this a lot and I think its a great way to be an aggressive Zerg. Its about time we had some timings where we can be really aggressive and "swarmy" without having to sac total economy and be considered "all-in". To anyone who voted that its really all-in, it might be highly-aggressive but as we saw, its very possible to transition out of it into standard play.
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On June 12 2012 09:55 thimius wrote:I really feel like u should have Symbol's version of this in the thread since i personally think he does it the best. PS. Great Read thanks for an awesome guide You wouldn't happen to have replays or VODs of Symbol's version?
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I think the fact it is not truly an all-in is pretty apparent when watching games such as the ones at MLG you refer to (Stephano vs. MKP on Entombed is a great example).
It probably the most all-inish thing a Zerg can do in the early-midgame, yeah.
However, if you watch the Stephano vs. MKP game on Entombed, you can clearly see how it isn't an all-in.
Yes, he wasn't making drones. However, he now has units that aren't going to waste. They are useful for the later attack MKP did, and that was quite apparent when MKP finally did push out. I'm sure we've all seen the GIF by now of the 3 fungals going off while banelings crash into the marines.
It is indeed a big deal that those units weren't drones. But if you look at the Zerg macro mechanic, droning behind the aggression catches you up fairly quickly. You now have units to keep yourself safe, and your only real cost is mins. It actually becomes a big deal that he made banelings because of that. His transition is into ling/infestor with upgrades. Upgrades aren't deterred by the build, only infestor count. ~2 infestors worth of gas were cut into. Lings are free, especially on the 3 base economy that he was fully at only 1-2 minutes after the "all-in."
It definitely puts him at a disadvantage, but it is not game over by any means. He can actually feel safer to drone up and tech up. If the units are lost, I think that's another story.
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Well you guys have to remember that the DRG version starts making units when you should start making units anyway, because if you see T moving out, you can only build so many units in one or two cycles anyway (ret dies to this all the time as he overestimates the reaction time zerg has when a push is coming, even if scouted immediately). You can't be building only drones till he pushes out at 12 minutes for example because you simply will not have enough stuff when he's at your base (and if you "catch" him sieging up at your base it's too late anyway because you want to hit in the middle of the map). This might work for pushes until the 8min mark, but not beyond that.
So the only difference is like the above poster mentionend: your units aren't sitting around waiting for a push (that's maybe not even coming) and thus going to waste, but they hit the T base very soon after they are created and are virtually bound to do some damage, if not end the game outright.
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DRG's recent victory over Alecia (Protoss) in the MLG Spring Championship Stopped reading right there.
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On June 12 2012 19:50 HaXXspetten wrote:Stopped reading right there.
That's a funny reason to stop reading.
Why would you deprive yourself of additional builds because of a typo?
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Yep, this is not an all in. It's a timing push that requires you to make a small ammount of damage to the oponent, As long as you see to it that you can defend banshees then there is nothing that can punch a hole in this build really hard. If you see tanks you simply drone for a while and then time your defense for the 2 base tank or take a 4th for the 3 base tank.
It's a build that punishes terrans that try to go either 3 orbital double upgrade or 3 orbital banshee with cut marine production. You can defend this with tank openings or with mass bio openings. It's just a good build none the less though since you dont really need to deal that much damage and you can often times head back if you see tanks. And it almost allways forces scvs off the natural minerals for a good while.
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Tang, what would you say is the most important difference between this build and the Roach/Ling/Baneling "Big Bust" build you wrote a guide about some time ago? Would you recommend one over the other? What sort of scouting information would lead you to choose this build rather than the other one?
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On June 12 2012 19:50 HaXXspetten wrote:Stopped reading right there. I knew it looked wrong...haha, updated. Thanks!
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On June 12 2012 21:38 transience wrote: Tang, what would you say is the most important difference between this build and the Roach/Ling/Baneling "Big Bust" build you wrote a guide about some time ago? Would you recommend one over the other? What sort of scouting information would lead you to choose this build rather than the other one? The "Big Bust" comes much earlier (8:20) and is actually a smaller push (8 roaches, 6 banelings, 20+ zerglings). It much more all-in to attack this early, but the timing works well against tank and banshee expands.
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Really nice guide, but I have a small question, is there any example of this big roach/Banneling bust but starting with a 4 Queen build with delayed gas?
Thanks!
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This is great, Tang! I really love that you are comparing different variations of this build across many players.
Would you mind if I add a strategy section in DRG's fanclub and link to these guides credits to you of course.
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On June 12 2012 18:17 Echo_ wrote: I think the fact it is not truly an all-in is pretty apparent when watching games such as the ones at MLG you refer to (Stephano vs. MKP on Entombed is a great example).
It probably the most all-inish thing a Zerg can do in the early-midgame, yeah.
However, if you watch the Stephano vs. MKP game on Entombed, you can clearly see how it isn't an all-in.
Yes, he wasn't making drones. However, he now has units that aren't going to waste. They are useful for the later attack MKP did, and that was quite apparent when MKP finally did push out. I'm sure we've all seen the GIF by now of the 3 fungals going off while banelings crash into the marines.
It is indeed a big deal that those units weren't drones. But if you look at the Zerg macro mechanic, droning behind the aggression catches you up fairly quickly. You now have units to keep yourself safe, and your only real cost is mins. It actually becomes a big deal that he made banelings because of that. His transition is into ling/infestor with upgrades. Upgrades aren't deterred by the build, only infestor count. ~2 infestors worth of gas were cut into. Lings are free, especially on the 3 base economy that he was fully at only 1-2 minutes after the "all-in."
It definitely puts him at a disadvantage, but it is not game over by any means. He can actually feel safer to drone up and tech up. If the units are lost, I think that's another story.
agreed.
if you watch stephano's vods/replays you can see that he uses this build as a standard in zvt (almost every other game probably). even if he does no damage whatsoever with it he can still win the game, and if he catches a greedy terran offguard sometimes he can win outright.
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On June 13 2012 02:09 neoghaleon55 wrote:This is great, Tang! I really love that you are comparing different variations of this build across many players. Would you mind if I add a strategy section in DRG's fanclub and link to these guides credits to you of course. Not at all, I'd really appreciate that :D
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On June 13 2012 02:02 Vanadiel wrote: Really nice guide, but I have a small question, is there any example of this big roach/Banneling bust but starting with a 4 Queen build with delayed gas?
Thanks! You could absolutely do 4queen and then gas, and aim for a 44 warren and 2nd gas all the same. Maybe get the second gas a bit earlier, but it's definitely an option. You'll have a macro advantage of an earlier 3rd and lots of creep, but also it also means your push will have a smaller chance of an outright victory.
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On June 13 2012 05:14 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 02:02 Vanadiel wrote: Really nice guide, but I have a small question, is there any example of this big roach/Banneling bust but starting with a 4 Queen build with delayed gas?
Thanks! You could absolutely do 4queen and then gas, and aim for a 44 warren and 2nd gas all the same. Maybe get the second gas a bit earlier, but it's definitely an option. You'll have a macro advantage of an earlier 3rd and lots of creep, but also it also means your push will have a smaller chance of an outright victory. I'll look for vods later, but when i originally saw this build DRG was using a gasless build with it. He went gasless until about 36-40, then triple gas and stayed on those gas until first round of drones after the attack. He also got 4 queens straight away, as that was the point of the quesion lol.
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Thanks for a very well made guide tang, i feel like this build provides a very safe platform to take a third and transition into the late game and also an opportunity to win the game outright.
Just a quick question though, is this build viable if i scout gas from the terran at my 13 scout? Most of the time i see a full wall-off which means either proxy rax or 1 rax CC however if i get in and see gas is this still a viable way to proceed?
Cheers!
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Lol right now the vote is split straight down, 28/28 on whether or not its an All In, I'm not voting just to keep the balance xD. Personally I believe that it is an all in, it is not something that can really be recovered from quickly. If/When it fails (force fields bros, FF 4 lyf3) the zerg will have a difficult time defending and will most likely lose the game to a competent protoss or terran if he has not done enough damage. That being said, if the protoss fears that he cannot attack, then the zerg can rebound, as they should, and then push again.
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Zerg is never really all-in, even though similar pushes from Terran/Protoss would be considered 100% all-in.
User was warned for this post
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DRG's version has no spine crawler, which is so risky. Against a good reactor hellion player, that hits with 4 hellions 6 minutes in the game, you just straight up lose...
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"OR IS IT?????"
I love this part in all your guides :D
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Ehh, as for whether this is All-in or not, I would say mostly yes. Even if you kill a retarded number of SCVs it's incredibly hard to win a macro game out of it due to Mules, especially if they went for fast 3cc and survived, their econ can bounce right back and your tech will be super slow.
It's odd, and it seems like if you wreck the natural you wouldn't be much behind if at all but personally with using this strat either it completely kills them or I end up losing since Terran only takes a real hit to his economy meanwhile you also take a hit to your economy from not droning and your tech is also pathetically weak and behind in upgrades and everything.
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I'm only a silver league player, so take my praise for what it's worth, but this is an incredible guide. I love that you took the time to give 5 versions (variations) of the build.
Thank you, and I can't wait to try this build out!
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On June 13 2012 06:02 neoghaleon55 wrote: DRG's version has no spine crawler, which is so risky. Against a good reactor hellion player, that hits with 4 hellions 6 minutes in the game, you just straight up lose...
Going 4 queen and the 3 later gas is the way I've been doing this, though I die to counterattacks a lot despite doing insane damage (I need to tighten up my tech progression). If you have 4 queens, 4 hellions are no threat unless you're horribly out of position.
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ive been doing this in 2v2 for eternity, but its cool to do it in competitve play too
(also i dont play zerg, so.)
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On June 13 2012 05:34 CheyRa wrote: Thanks for a very well made guide tang, i feel like this build provides a very safe platform to take a third and transition into the late game and also an opportunity to win the game outright.
Just a quick question though, is this build viable if i scout gas from the terran at my 13 scout? Most of the time i see a full wall-off which means either proxy rax or 1 rax CC however if i get in and see gas is this still a viable way to proceed?
Cheers! It's definitely viable against gas openings, but not ideal. It's not that most tank/banshee builds shut it down outright, they're just better at defending it than gas-less expand.
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been waiting for this for a long time :D really have been looking to incorporate this on some maps
just one question, what happens if they go for reactor hellion out of 1 rax expand, wouldn't they see/kite around/kill the lings moving across the map?
thanks
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What a great post thank you! Now I can mix in some good cheese in a bo3 !!!! I've been meaning to do this research on my own but you just did it for me! Thank you !
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This can get shut down hard by either siege tanks or banshees.
Early enough siege tanks will massacre large groups of banelings before they can do damage. And banshees can pummel your units as they move across the map.
I saw a mech terran doing a really nice liftoff/evacuation of his entire natural to clean up the attack. That can basically leave you so far behind that the entire game is lost right there.
Its a nice allin, but there are definitely a lot of maps that I would not do it on. Shakura's, entombed with LOS ramps.
Cloud kingdom/taldarim with huge open naturals seem to be the best. Also depends on map size of course. This is still very allinish and the more time the terran gets to prepare (3+ bunkers) the harder it gets to do significant damage.
In this BO (small) compendium drg builds contains a spinecrawler. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtCOlN-fmKT7dDBNLWU1a1d3QTU4a3FMXzB5UE5taFE#gid=0
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You can always count on Tang to make good guides on cheesy or all in builds :D
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jEcho also has a really good guide about DRG 4 queen opener.
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On June 13 2012 11:33 ZenithM wrote: You can always count on Tang to make good guides on cheesy or all in builds :D
It's quite helpful. Zerg cheeses are hard to come by.
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On June 13 2012 12:45 lysergic wrote:You should use more recent games for the build orders, especially for DRG; things have changed a lot since november. He started doing fast 4 queen with delayed 3 gas in january~. After the queen buff, pretty much everyone started opening fast 4 queen delayed 3 gas. DRG vs MKP - Finals game 1 - Shakuras Plateau (MLG Columbus) DRG vs Ganzi - game 3 - Daybreak (MLG Winter Arena) DRG vs TheStC - game 2 - Entombed Valley (MLG Winter Arena) 4 queens asap 5:30-5:45 3 gas 6:20 roach warren -ling speed @100gas -roaches -baneling nest (~7:50-8:10) take third while attacking Yeah actually I had seen a game of DRG opening 4queen, but regrettably couldn't find the replays. Thanks a lot for posting these!
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Funny how it's come back in style. Do people not remember like a year and a half ago, when these exact roach/bane/ling timings were shitting on Terrans on Metal and Xel Naga?
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On June 13 2012 07:17 BeeNu wrote: Ehh, as for whether this is All-in or not, I would say mostly yes. Even if you kill a retarded number of SCVs it's incredibly hard to win a macro game out of it due to Mules, especially if they went for fast 3cc and survived, their econ can bounce right back and your tech will be super slow.
It's odd, and it seems like if you wreck the natural you wouldn't be much behind if at all but personally with using this strat either it completely kills them or I end up losing since Terran only takes a real hit to his economy meanwhile you also take a hit to your economy from not droning and your tech is also pathetically weak and behind in upgrades and everything.
I really disagree with this statement, specifically "Even if you kill a retarded number of SCVs it's incredibly hard to win a macro game out of it due to Mules."
I feel like this thinking is causing zerg's to play to passive against Terrans because they feel like killing SCVs doesn't do anything due to mules.
I may need some back up on this point, but I've always heard casters say that mules count as 4 SCVs.
A retarded amount of SCVS makes me think of around 25 SCVs killed. Sure he probably has 3 CCs at this point, each spawning one mule at a time with good macro. Thus 25-(4*3mules)= a net effect of you being ahead 13 drones. If you are doing Stephano's variation (have your third almost done when the 8:20 attack is over) then you are ahead.
In conclusion, if you do a large amount of damage, then you will be able to transition and be equal or ahead. Furthermore, more often times than not, I feel like these busts do do a large amount of damage (I am Diamond).
Regarding tech and upgrades, I believe the loss in those is worth the greater economy, which is Zerg's greatest strength. Furthermore, as TLO has been showing us, sticking with just zerglings and banelings and really nice creep spreed whilst only having three or four gases in the mid game and out expanding your opponent is really a viable strategy.
Therefore, I voted that this is not an all-in and I have been practicing it on YABOT and I can't wait to destroy the ladder with it..
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On June 13 2012 13:29 FabledIntegral wrote: Funny how it's come back in style. Do people not remember like a year and a half ago, when these exact roach/bane/ling timings were shitting on Terrans on Metal and Xel Naga?
Are you referring to the 28 food push with roach etc ? Sure the game was still in an evolving stage; as is now and we are seeing more efficiency i.e. being able to transition out of these builds.
Xel Naga was a while back. Season 1 ?
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On June 13 2012 12:45 lysergic wrote:You should use more recent games for the build orders, especially for DRG; things have changed a lot since november. He started doing fast 4 queen with delayed 3 gas in january~. After the queen buff, pretty much everyone started opening fast 4 queen delayed 3 gas. DRG vs MKP - Finals game 1 - Shakuras Plateau (MLG Columbus) DRG vs Ganzi - game 3 - Daybreak (MLG Winter Arena) DRG vs TheStC - game 2 - Entombed Valley (MLG Winter Arena) 4 queens asap 5:30-5:45 3 gas 6:20 roach warren -ling speed @100gas -roaches -baneling nest (~7:50-8:10) take third while attacking Oooh, I like this. Thank you very much for including the replays.
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Excellent, thank you Tang - I've been looking for an aggressive two-base build to add into my arsenal but a lot of them seemed too all-in. These new variants where Zerg is taking a third base behind the attack is really powerful and its great to see such a good guide put together on it.
I quite like the Stephano variant, the earlier third is right up my alley.
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On June 13 2012 22:55 TheRealzz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 13:29 FabledIntegral wrote: Funny how it's come back in style. Do people not remember like a year and a half ago, when these exact roach/bane/ling timings were shitting on Terrans on Metal and Xel Naga? Are you referring to the 28 food push with roach etc ? Sure the game was still in an evolving stage; as is now and we are seeing more efficiency i.e. being able to transition out of these builds. Xel Naga was a while back. Season 1 ?
Nope. It was nearly teh same roach/bane/ling attack. I remember a few pros posting that it was ridiculous to stop on metal, unless you specifically rushed to tanks and had like 3 minimum with a bunker as well.
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On June 13 2012 22:57 snexwang wrote:Oooh, I like this. Thank you very much for including the replays. I do too, you can get a LOT more banelings with this version.
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I found another recent game of Stephano vs Illusion. Stephano does it even though Illusion goes for gas first, Stephano's push does enough damage for him to transition into his standard infestor/early hive style.
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In the stephano build, you say "refill gas at 36", when nowhere earlier in the guide am I prompted to take guys off gas...
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On June 14 2012 07:24 AndySCWilson wrote: In the stephano build, you say "refill gas at 36", when nowhere earlier in the guide am I prompted to take guys off gas...
Updated. He takes drones out after speed is started.
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oh my god, 49 votes to 49. i have the power, I HAVE THE POWER! it's not an all in
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I think the poll is flawed. It's a large attack, and if you fail to do significant damage then of course you're behind. But that doesn't automatically make it an all-in.
And then to answer, it obviously depends on which variation you're doing, and how much damage you do. Ideally you can maybe save larva as you attack and then consciously decide whether your next round is lings or drones, and then play on from there.
I feel like this is going to be hard to use on the ladder because terrans never no gas fe. Reactor hellion is still the norm (at least where I am, at low masters/high diamond).
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On June 15 2012 10:01 galtdunn wrote: I think the poll is flawed. It's a large attack, and if you fail to do significant damage then of course you're behind. But that doesn't automatically make it an all-in.
And then to answer, it obviously depends on which variation you're doing, and how much damage you do. Ideally you can maybe save larva as you attack and then consciously decide whether your next round is lings or drones, and then play on from there.
I feel like this is going to be hard to use on the ladder because terrans never no gas fe. Reactor hellion is still the norm (at least where I am, at low masters/high diamond). This is still strong against reactor hellion expand builds, it just depends on the follow up (same goes for 1 rax FE though!)
By the way the build Stephano used against Demuslim in the vod posted above is actually an 8 minute attack with 7 roaches, 9 banelings, 10 or so lings with another 2 injects worth of lings made behind it and a 3rd base (at 8 minutes). I'm a bigger fan of the gasless openers, but that's definitely strong too.
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On June 15 2012 13:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 10:01 galtdunn wrote: I think the poll is flawed. It's a large attack, and if you fail to do significant damage then of course you're behind. But that doesn't automatically make it an all-in.
And then to answer, it obviously depends on which variation you're doing, and how much damage you do. Ideally you can maybe save larva as you attack and then consciously decide whether your next round is lings or drones, and then play on from there.
I feel like this is going to be hard to use on the ladder because terrans never no gas fe. Reactor hellion is still the norm (at least where I am, at low masters/high diamond). This is still strong against reactor hellion expand builds, it just depends on the follow up (same goes for 1 rax FE though!) By the way the build Stephano used against Demuslim in the vod posted above is actually an 8 minute attack with 7 roaches, 9 banelings, 10 or so lings with another 2 injects worth of lings made behind it and a 3rd base (at 8 minutes). I'm a bigger fan of the gasless openers, but that's definitely strong too. Originally I liked DRG's version the most as well, but the more I watch Stephano do this 8:20 bust and transition, the more I think it's better for the mid/late game.
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United States8476 Posts
One thing I notice that DRG does consistently whenever he does any roach pressure is to manually build roaches from his main hatch first and then the natural when he has the additional resources. That way, the roaches all wind up at his opponents' base at a similar and more uniform time.
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If someone can post to me a pro game where the attack does no damage and the Z can still transition and win, without like a completely ridiculous blunder, I will change my opinion. As of now, however, there can be very little debate that this is all-in.
Building a nexus after 4gating PvZ or PvT doesn't mean that the 4gate isn't all-in. Building the nexus isn't a "transition"
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Thanks for the guide. This was actually something that I wanted to add to my playbook. Having a strong attack as a response to terran gasless opening is a nice change of pace to the otherwise very macro oriented play.
On June 15 2012 23:41 TangSC wrote:Originally I liked DRG's version the most as well, but the more I watch Stephano do this 8:20 bust and transition, the more I think it's better for the mid/late game.
Out of the versions I really like the Stephano's variation the most. It has the basic idea of expanding, but still hitting like a truck. It actually has a solid transition.
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thanks tang ^^ 1 more all-in to compensate for my terrible zvt
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On June 16 2012 02:40 GleaM wrote: If someone can post to me a pro game where the attack does no damage and the Z can still transition and win, without like a completely ridiculous blunder, I will change my opinion. As of now, however, there can be very little debate that this is all-in.
Building a nexus after 4gating PvZ or PvT doesn't mean that the 4gate isn't all-in. Building the nexus isn't a "transition" You're making the assumption that the zerg makes 10+ banelings after seeing that the attack won't do damage, then loses every single unit without killing anything at all. That did in fact happen - MVP against Suhosin (Line). Line tried to transition out, but his losses were too heavy and MVP's build was greedy enough to have a good advantage that let him take the game. A big part of Line's loss was due to him trying to transition into 3 base muta, which was absolutely the wrong call.
Generally if the terran has a good defense, it's wise for the zerg to simply not morph any banelings and either commit the roach/ling only to doing damage, or not attack with anything at all and just secure a third and lair safely.
You have to remember that an 8 minute third is still quite fast relative to the times zerg typically manages to take a third base (aside from some riskier very early third base timings), and the inject mechanic means that if zerg can purely drone (which they definitely can if they commit nothing to an attack), they can have 3 base saturation quite quickly. You're actually taking a third as you move out with this and often you'll use your next two injects on pure drones if you don't commit to an attack. About the best a terran can try to do to pressure you is with medivac harassment or a 2 base all-in and that's by no means a free win.
You're forgetting that players often do transition out of all-in builds depending on how much they commit to them. Sometimes they merely put you slightly behind, other times you committed too much. ST_Ace did a heavy warpgate all-in against BboongBboong in a famous game recently where he transitioned into a third base and later into storm drops in a long game, despite having done essentially no damage with it, simply because he pulled back soon enough.
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On June 16 2012 02:40 GleaM wrote: If someone can post to me a pro game where the attack does no damage and the Z can still transition and win, without like a completely ridiculous blunder, I will change my opinion. As of now, however, there can be very little debate that this is all-in.
Building a nexus after 4gating PvZ or PvT doesn't mean that the 4gate isn't all-in. Building the nexus isn't a "transition" Hmm I don't think the 4gate analogy is a good one for the roach/ling/baneling. Usually a 4-gate is around 19-22 workers with 1 base, this is 2 base with about 35-38 workers and 2 gas (easily enough income to take a 3rd and continue droning with upgrades). Generally speaking, the bust has to do some pretty significant damage but the sheer size of it is almost enough to guarantee you do at least equalizing damage. You're stating the worst case scenario (that the attack somehow does no damage) proves that the build is all-in, but the definition of an all-in is not "an attack that must do damage to stay even," since most attacks fall into this category.
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On June 16 2012 22:38 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 02:40 GleaM wrote: If someone can post to me a pro game where the attack does no damage and the Z can still transition and win, without like a completely ridiculous blunder, I will change my opinion. As of now, however, there can be very little debate that this is all-in.
Building a nexus after 4gating PvZ or PvT doesn't mean that the 4gate isn't all-in. Building the nexus isn't a "transition" Hmm I don't think the 4gate analogy is a good one for the roach/ling/baneling. Usually a 4-gate is around 19-22 workers with 1 base, this is 2 base with about 35-38 workers and 2 gas (easily enough income to take a 3rd and continue droning with upgrades). Generally speaking, the bust has to do some pretty significant damage but the sheer size of it is almost enough to guarantee you do at least equalizing damage. You're stating the worst case scenario (that the attack somehow does no damage) proves that the build is all-in, but the definition of an all-in is not "an attack that must do damage to stay even," since most attacks fall into this category.
I agree with what you're saying, mostly. The poll seems pretty divided on it as well, with a slight favor to "not an all-in", so I'll just try it a little bit for myself. Whatever the case, it seems like a very interesting build. Thanks for posting~
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On June 16 2012 22:38 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 02:40 GleaM wrote: If someone can post to me a pro game where the attack does no damage and the Z can still transition and win, without like a completely ridiculous blunder, I will change my opinion. As of now, however, there can be very little debate that this is all-in.
Building a nexus after 4gating PvZ or PvT doesn't mean that the 4gate isn't all-in. Building the nexus isn't a "transition" Hmm I don't think the 4gate analogy is a good one for the roach/ling/baneling. Usually a 4-gate is around 19-22 workers with 1 base, this is 2 base with about 35-38 workers and 2 gas (easily enough income to take a 3rd and continue droning with upgrades). Generally speaking, the bust has to do some pretty significant damage but the sheer size of it is almost enough to guarantee you do at least equalizing damage. You're stating the worst case scenario (that the attack somehow does no damage) proves that the build is all-in, but the definition of an all-in is not "an attack that must do damage to stay even," since most attacks fall into this category.
Zerg operates differently from other races with this all-in for 2 reasons. One is that you're building units and not drones, which means that you are taking an active role in sacrificing economy for army. That is why early zerg attacks need to do damage, because you are cutting workers to execute the push. Also, you are using a unit that detonates when it attacks, so you need to follow that unit up with many many more units, which is costing more larvae, more gas, and cutting more workers.
Furthermore, you are staying on hatchery tech, which is completely stunting your upgrades and later game tech.
Let's paint a scenario here: Terran player on daybreak goes for standard 3 OC play into marine-tank. The high level player will, at 9 minutes, have 2 or 3 tanks in seige mode, at least one bunker, a partial or full supply depot wall, and many marines.This is with no scouting necessary. This is just the simple progression and idea behind the build. (One of the main builds at the moment, being used by the majority of the GSL/GSTL terrans, where they get a fast 3 OC, double ebay, tanks, then go into crazy marine/tank/medivac mode) All of that was without scouting. With proper scouting you could be facing more bunkers and a better defense. So a 3 OC terran can either choose to take a 3rd with a significant worker lead because they did not cut workers with their unit production, or they could keep their 3rd oc in their base and begin to push as the Z is putting up his 3rd on hatch tech, in which case the zerg is fighting marines and tanks and 2 medivacs by around 10 minutes with 1-1 and stim with speedlings, slow banelings, and roaches, with little to no creep spread (2 queens injecting and MAYBE a 3rd queen, only with Stephano's style)50 drones at the most (assuming the inject cycle after the tanks are scouted by the push) and 3 hatches (assuming the 3rd is finished) with 2 of them being injected (unless the 3rd queen in stephano's style leaves creep duty and ambles her way back there)
I don't see any way to win a game from this spot as zerg, unless the terran player completely messes something up horribly badly and loses an army for nothing or his mouse dies or something.
My point is this: Standard terran play, even with no scouting, can make this push do zero damage. And if the push doeszero damage, it is virtually impossible, for the explained reason, to transition OUT of the all-in.
I will say this again: Any thoughts on this situation? And does anyone have replays of this build doing little/no damage and still being able to transition into a stable midgame with no complete blunders by the terran player?
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And at the 4gate comment:
As a protoss, after the first warp-in of stalkers around 6 minutes, I can throw down a nexus and have around 60% chrono for probes, and have this at the 6 minute mark, which is pretty similar comparatively with the timings discussed with the roach/ling/baneling all-in. If I use the build, however, and the stalkers do no damage, the only way that a standard terran medivac push would not destroy me is if I took some huge risk, or made DTs, or did some other sort of huge gamble, which is what would need to happen with my aforementioned hypothetical situation with the TvZ. Both transitions are extremely shaky because its hard to transition when you cut workers and tech for T1 units.
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On June 19 2012 13:55 GleaM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 22:38 TangSC wrote:On June 16 2012 02:40 GleaM wrote: If someone can post to me a pro game where the attack does no damage and the Z can still transition and win, without like a completely ridiculous blunder, I will change my opinion. As of now, however, there can be very little debate that this is all-in.
Building a nexus after 4gating PvZ or PvT doesn't mean that the 4gate isn't all-in. Building the nexus isn't a "transition" Hmm I don't think the 4gate analogy is a good one for the roach/ling/baneling. Usually a 4-gate is around 19-22 workers with 1 base, this is 2 base with about 35-38 workers and 2 gas (easily enough income to take a 3rd and continue droning with upgrades). Generally speaking, the bust has to do some pretty significant damage but the sheer size of it is almost enough to guarantee you do at least equalizing damage. You're stating the worst case scenario (that the attack somehow does no damage) proves that the build is all-in, but the definition of an all-in is not "an attack that must do damage to stay even," since most attacks fall into this category. Zerg operates differently from other races with this all-in for 2 reasons. One is that you're building units and not drones, which means that you are taking an active role in sacrificing economy for army. That is why early zerg attacks need to do damage, because you are cutting workers to execute the push. Also, you are using a unit that detonates when it attacks, so you need to follow that unit up with many many more units, which is costing more larvae, more gas, and cutting more workers. Furthermore, you are staying on hatchery tech, which is completely stunting your upgrades and later game tech. Let's paint a scenario here: Terran player on daybreak goes for standard 3 OC play into marine-tank. The high level player will, at 9 minutes, have 2 or 3 tanks in seige mode, at least one bunker, a partial or full supply depot wall, and many marines.This is with no scouting necessary. This is just the simple progression and idea behind the build. (One of the main builds at the moment, being used by the majority of the GSL/GSTL terrans, where they get a fast 3 OC, double ebay, tanks, then go into crazy marine/tank/medivac mode) All of that was without scouting. With proper scouting you could be facing more bunkers and a better defense. So a 3 OC terran can either choose to take a 3rd with a significant worker lead because they did not cut workers with their unit production, or they could keep their 3rd oc in their base and begin to push as the Z is putting up his 3rd on hatch tech, in which case the zerg is fighting marines and tanks and 2 medivacs by around 10 minutes with 1-1 and stim with speedlings, slow banelings, and roaches, with little to no creep spread (2 queens injecting and MAYBE a 3rd queen, only with Stephano's style)50 drones at the most (assuming the inject cycle after the tanks are scouted by the push) and 3 hatches (assuming the 3rd is finished) with 2 of them being injected (unless the 3rd queen in stephano's style leaves creep duty and ambles her way back there) I don't see any way to win a game from this spot as zerg, unless the terran player completely messes something up horribly badly and loses an army for nothing or his mouse dies or something. My point is this: Standard terran play, even with no scouting, can make this push do zero damage. And if the push doeszero damage, it is virtually impossible, for the explained reason, to transition OUT of the all-in. I will say this again: Any thoughts on this situation? And does anyone have replays of this build doing little/no damage and still being able to transition into a stable midgame with no complete blunders by the terran player? I don't think Terran can go gas-less FE into 3CC and still get 2-3 tanks with siege, a bunker, and a full supply depot wall before 9min. I've seen vioLet and Stephano do this build time and time again, and even if there's tanks they tend to do enough damage to transition and win. Most games I've seen haven't actually ended with this push - it's more of a stepping-stone into the mid game.
When you're executing the attack, you can actually drone up harder than you could if you were playing passive. Before you even start making roaches, you reach nearly full 2-base saturation with 2-3 gas. That means it only takes about 10 drones to fully saturate the gas and start 2 evo chambers. Often times, you can fully or partially saturate your third and begin a macro-hatch before you need to start making units. Naturally your tech is going to be a bit delayed (+1+1 and lair), but assuming you trade armies, take out a few depots/bunkers, and kill some SCVs, the delay in tech shouldn't hurt your mid-game.
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On June 19 2012 14:01 GleaM wrote: And at the 4gate comment:
As a protoss, after the first warp-in of stalkers around 6 minutes, I can throw down a nexus and have around 60% chrono for probes, and have this at the 6 minute mark, which is pretty similar comparatively with the timings discussed with the roach/ling/baneling all-in. If I use the build, however, and the stalkers do no damage, the only way that a standard terran medivac push would not destroy me is if I took some huge risk, or made DTs, or did some other sort of huge gamble, which is what would need to happen with my aforementioned hypothetical situation with the TvZ. Both transitions are extremely shaky because its hard to transition when you cut workers and tech for T1 units. A 6minute natural for protoss is pretty different than an 8:30 third for Zerg. Also, the saturation is completely different - 4gate is 1base saturation, roach/ling/bane is 2base saturation. The roach warren/bane nest may actually have use in the mid-game too (Roaches against mech, banelings against bio). You could always build the roaches/ling and not go for the bust, be completely safe to midgame pressure, and drone up your 3rd with upgrades and a lair.
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On June 19 2012 19:19 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 13:55 GleaM wrote:On June 16 2012 22:38 TangSC wrote:On June 16 2012 02:40 GleaM wrote: If someone can post to me a pro game where the attack does no damage and the Z can still transition and win, without like a completely ridiculous blunder, I will change my opinion. As of now, however, there can be very little debate that this is all-in.
Building a nexus after 4gating PvZ or PvT doesn't mean that the 4gate isn't all-in. Building the nexus isn't a "transition" Hmm I don't think the 4gate analogy is a good one for the roach/ling/baneling. Usually a 4-gate is around 19-22 workers with 1 base, this is 2 base with about 35-38 workers and 2 gas (easily enough income to take a 3rd and continue droning with upgrades). Generally speaking, the bust has to do some pretty significant damage but the sheer size of it is almost enough to guarantee you do at least equalizing damage. You're stating the worst case scenario (that the attack somehow does no damage) proves that the build is all-in, but the definition of an all-in is not "an attack that must do damage to stay even," since most attacks fall into this category. Zerg operates differently from other races with this all-in for 2 reasons. One is that you're building units and not drones, which means that you are taking an active role in sacrificing economy for army. That is why early zerg attacks need to do damage, because you are cutting workers to execute the push. Also, you are using a unit that detonates when it attacks, so you need to follow that unit up with many many more units, which is costing more larvae, more gas, and cutting more workers. Furthermore, you are staying on hatchery tech, which is completely stunting your upgrades and later game tech. Let's paint a scenario here: Terran player on daybreak goes for standard 3 OC play into marine-tank. The high level player will, at 9 minutes, have 2 or 3 tanks in seige mode, at least one bunker, a partial or full supply depot wall, and many marines.This is with no scouting necessary. This is just the simple progression and idea behind the build. (One of the main builds at the moment, being used by the majority of the GSL/GSTL terrans, where they get a fast 3 OC, double ebay, tanks, then go into crazy marine/tank/medivac mode) All of that was without scouting. With proper scouting you could be facing more bunkers and a better defense. So a 3 OC terran can either choose to take a 3rd with a significant worker lead because they did not cut workers with their unit production, or they could keep their 3rd oc in their base and begin to push as the Z is putting up his 3rd on hatch tech, in which case the zerg is fighting marines and tanks and 2 medivacs by around 10 minutes with 1-1 and stim with speedlings, slow banelings, and roaches, with little to no creep spread (2 queens injecting and MAYBE a 3rd queen, only with Stephano's style)50 drones at the most (assuming the inject cycle after the tanks are scouted by the push) and 3 hatches (assuming the 3rd is finished) with 2 of them being injected (unless the 3rd queen in stephano's style leaves creep duty and ambles her way back there) I don't see any way to win a game from this spot as zerg, unless the terran player completely messes something up horribly badly and loses an army for nothing or his mouse dies or something. My point is this: Standard terran play, even with no scouting, can make this push do zero damage. And if the push doeszero damage, it is virtually impossible, for the explained reason, to transition OUT of the all-in. I will say this again: Any thoughts on this situation? And does anyone have replays of this build doing little/no damage and still being able to transition into a stable midgame with no complete blunders by the terran player? I don't think Terran can go gas-less FE into 3CC and still get 2-3 tanks with siege, a bunker, and a full supply depot wall before 9min. I've seen vioLet and Stephano do this build time and time again, and even if there's tanks they tend to do enough damage to transition and win. Most games I've seen haven't actually ended with this push - it's more of a stepping-stone into the mid game. When you're executing the attack, you can actually drone up harder than you could if you were playing passive. Before you even start making roaches, you reach nearly full 2-base saturation with 2-3 gas. That means it only takes about 10 drones to fully saturate the gas and start 2 evo chambers. Often times, you can fully or partially saturate your third and begin a macro-hatch before you need to start making units. Naturally your tech is going to be a bit delayed (+1+1 and lair), but assuming you trade armies, take out a few depots/bunkers, and kill some SCVs, the delay in tech shouldn't hurt your mid-game.
You're completely ignoring what I am saying. You can never ever ever trade armies cost effectively with slow banelings, roaches, and un-upgraded speedlings vs marine tank medivac. I have other thoughts but I really can't go on until you address what I am saying.
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On June 20 2012 11:08 GleaM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 19:19 TangSC wrote:On June 19 2012 13:55 GleaM wrote:On June 16 2012 22:38 TangSC wrote:On June 16 2012 02:40 GleaM wrote: If someone can post to me a pro game where the attack does no damage and the Z can still transition and win, without like a completely ridiculous blunder, I will change my opinion. As of now, however, there can be very little debate that this is all-in.
Building a nexus after 4gating PvZ or PvT doesn't mean that the 4gate isn't all-in. Building the nexus isn't a "transition" Hmm I don't think the 4gate analogy is a good one for the roach/ling/baneling. Usually a 4-gate is around 19-22 workers with 1 base, this is 2 base with about 35-38 workers and 2 gas (easily enough income to take a 3rd and continue droning with upgrades). Generally speaking, the bust has to do some pretty significant damage but the sheer size of it is almost enough to guarantee you do at least equalizing damage. You're stating the worst case scenario (that the attack somehow does no damage) proves that the build is all-in, but the definition of an all-in is not "an attack that must do damage to stay even," since most attacks fall into this category. Zerg operates differently from other races with this all-in for 2 reasons. One is that you're building units and not drones, which means that you are taking an active role in sacrificing economy for army. That is why early zerg attacks need to do damage, because you are cutting workers to execute the push. Also, you are using a unit that detonates when it attacks, so you need to follow that unit up with many many more units, which is costing more larvae, more gas, and cutting more workers. Furthermore, you are staying on hatchery tech, which is completely stunting your upgrades and later game tech. Let's paint a scenario here: Terran player on daybreak goes for standard 3 OC play into marine-tank. The high level player will, at 9 minutes, have 2 or 3 tanks in seige mode, at least one bunker, a partial or full supply depot wall, and many marines.This is with no scouting necessary. This is just the simple progression and idea behind the build. (One of the main builds at the moment, being used by the majority of the GSL/GSTL terrans, where they get a fast 3 OC, double ebay, tanks, then go into crazy marine/tank/medivac mode) All of that was without scouting. With proper scouting you could be facing more bunkers and a better defense. So a 3 OC terran can either choose to take a 3rd with a significant worker lead because they did not cut workers with their unit production, or they could keep their 3rd oc in their base and begin to push as the Z is putting up his 3rd on hatch tech, in which case the zerg is fighting marines and tanks and 2 medivacs by around 10 minutes with 1-1 and stim with speedlings, slow banelings, and roaches, with little to no creep spread (2 queens injecting and MAYBE a 3rd queen, only with Stephano's style)50 drones at the most (assuming the inject cycle after the tanks are scouted by the push) and 3 hatches (assuming the 3rd is finished) with 2 of them being injected (unless the 3rd queen in stephano's style leaves creep duty and ambles her way back there) I don't see any way to win a game from this spot as zerg, unless the terran player completely messes something up horribly badly and loses an army for nothing or his mouse dies or something. My point is this: Standard terran play, even with no scouting, can make this push do zero damage. And if the push doeszero damage, it is virtually impossible, for the explained reason, to transition OUT of the all-in. I will say this again: Any thoughts on this situation? And does anyone have replays of this build doing little/no damage and still being able to transition into a stable midgame with no complete blunders by the terran player? I don't think Terran can go gas-less FE into 3CC and still get 2-3 tanks with siege, a bunker, and a full supply depot wall before 9min. I've seen vioLet and Stephano do this build time and time again, and even if there's tanks they tend to do enough damage to transition and win. Most games I've seen haven't actually ended with this push - it's more of a stepping-stone into the mid game. When you're executing the attack, you can actually drone up harder than you could if you were playing passive. Before you even start making roaches, you reach nearly full 2-base saturation with 2-3 gas. That means it only takes about 10 drones to fully saturate the gas and start 2 evo chambers. Often times, you can fully or partially saturate your third and begin a macro-hatch before you need to start making units. Naturally your tech is going to be a bit delayed (+1+1 and lair), but assuming you trade armies, take out a few depots/bunkers, and kill some SCVs, the delay in tech shouldn't hurt your mid-game. You're completely ignoring what I am saying. You can never ever ever trade armies cost effectively with slow banelings, roaches, and un-upgraded speedlings vs marine tank medivac. I have other thoughts but I really can't go on until you address what I am saying.
And for the sake of argument, so we don't have to squabble about 3 OC builds, let's say its a 3rax marine tank build off of a gasless FE with no 3rd OC
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On June 20 2012 11:27 GleaM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 11:08 GleaM wrote:On June 19 2012 19:19 TangSC wrote:On June 19 2012 13:55 GleaM wrote:On June 16 2012 22:38 TangSC wrote:On June 16 2012 02:40 GleaM wrote: If someone can post to me a pro game where the attack does no damage and the Z can still transition and win, without like a completely ridiculous blunder, I will change my opinion. As of now, however, there can be very little debate that this is all-in.
Building a nexus after 4gating PvZ or PvT doesn't mean that the 4gate isn't all-in. Building the nexus isn't a "transition" Hmm I don't think the 4gate analogy is a good one for the roach/ling/baneling. Usually a 4-gate is around 19-22 workers with 1 base, this is 2 base with about 35-38 workers and 2 gas (easily enough income to take a 3rd and continue droning with upgrades). Generally speaking, the bust has to do some pretty significant damage but the sheer size of it is almost enough to guarantee you do at least equalizing damage. You're stating the worst case scenario (that the attack somehow does no damage) proves that the build is all-in, but the definition of an all-in is not "an attack that must do damage to stay even," since most attacks fall into this category. Zerg operates differently from other races with this all-in for 2 reasons. One is that you're building units and not drones, which means that you are taking an active role in sacrificing economy for army. That is why early zerg attacks need to do damage, because you are cutting workers to execute the push. Also, you are using a unit that detonates when it attacks, so you need to follow that unit up with many many more units, which is costing more larvae, more gas, and cutting more workers. Furthermore, you are staying on hatchery tech, which is completely stunting your upgrades and later game tech. Let's paint a scenario here: Terran player on daybreak goes for standard 3 OC play into marine-tank. The high level player will, at 9 minutes, have 2 or 3 tanks in seige mode, at least one bunker, a partial or full supply depot wall, and many marines.This is with no scouting necessary. This is just the simple progression and idea behind the build. (One of the main builds at the moment, being used by the majority of the GSL/GSTL terrans, where they get a fast 3 OC, double ebay, tanks, then go into crazy marine/tank/medivac mode) All of that was without scouting. With proper scouting you could be facing more bunkers and a better defense. So a 3 OC terran can either choose to take a 3rd with a significant worker lead because they did not cut workers with their unit production, or they could keep their 3rd oc in their base and begin to push as the Z is putting up his 3rd on hatch tech, in which case the zerg is fighting marines and tanks and 2 medivacs by around 10 minutes with 1-1 and stim with speedlings, slow banelings, and roaches, with little to no creep spread (2 queens injecting and MAYBE a 3rd queen, only with Stephano's style)50 drones at the most (assuming the inject cycle after the tanks are scouted by the push) and 3 hatches (assuming the 3rd is finished) with 2 of them being injected (unless the 3rd queen in stephano's style leaves creep duty and ambles her way back there) I don't see any way to win a game from this spot as zerg, unless the terran player completely messes something up horribly badly and loses an army for nothing or his mouse dies or something. My point is this: Standard terran play, even with no scouting, can make this push do zero damage. And if the push doeszero damage, it is virtually impossible, for the explained reason, to transition OUT of the all-in. I will say this again: Any thoughts on this situation? And does anyone have replays of this build doing little/no damage and still being able to transition into a stable midgame with no complete blunders by the terran player? I don't think Terran can go gas-less FE into 3CC and still get 2-3 tanks with siege, a bunker, and a full supply depot wall before 9min. I've seen vioLet and Stephano do this build time and time again, and even if there's tanks they tend to do enough damage to transition and win. Most games I've seen haven't actually ended with this push - it's more of a stepping-stone into the mid game. When you're executing the attack, you can actually drone up harder than you could if you were playing passive. Before you even start making roaches, you reach nearly full 2-base saturation with 2-3 gas. That means it only takes about 10 drones to fully saturate the gas and start 2 evo chambers. Often times, you can fully or partially saturate your third and begin a macro-hatch before you need to start making units. Naturally your tech is going to be a bit delayed (+1+1 and lair), but assuming you trade armies, take out a few depots/bunkers, and kill some SCVs, the delay in tech shouldn't hurt your mid-game. You're completely ignoring what I am saying. You can never ever ever trade armies cost effectively with slow banelings, roaches, and un-upgraded speedlings vs marine tank medivac. I have other thoughts but I really can't go on until you address what I am saying. And for the sake of argument, so we don't have to squabble about 3 OC builds, let's say its a 3rax marine tank build off of a gasless FE with no 3rd OC You actually could trade pretty well against a gasless FE into 3rax marine/tank (at least kill bunker/depots/scvs/1-2 tanks/lots of marines). You're overestimating the power of tanks in TvZ, I've seen vioLet and Stephano games where opponents open tanks and they engage at the natural and the game is equalized.
You also have the option to run a ling up the ramp, get shelled by a siege tank, and simply pull back before morphing banelings and be in a comparable economic position with a third base already started. If you morphed the banes, you might be a bit behind but it's certainly not over just because you opened with these units. I actually think if most players opened roach/ling/baneling like this defensively, they can move into 3-4 base play pretty easily/safely.
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For example, Stephano against MKP at recent mlg did win the game on entombed valley when he went for this strat and did 0 dammage.
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Fantastic guide, I like how you put the different pro's variations of it.
I'm gonna start trying this right away, I'm sick of Terran's going super greedy into super aggresive lately, it'll be nice to bring the aggression back to them >=D
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I'm still having trouble hiding this... because roaches (and lings) are slow basically, and if you head across the map with 9 roaches at that timing... it's pretty obvious. also I find it rather vulnerable to hellion runbys... you really have to look out for that..
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On June 21 2012 00:46 Vanadiel wrote: For example, Stephano against MKP at recent mlg did win the game on entombed valley when he went for this strat and did 0 dammage.
yep, basically MKP counters the build by walling off with rax only at the front so zerg has to retreat. that might probably be the easiest counter from the T side.
but since pretty much no T does that, this (semi) all in is super strong vs 1 rax FE. ^^
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On June 21 2012 07:45 Mahtasooma wrote: I'm still having trouble hiding this... because roaches (and lings) are slow basically, and if you head across the map with 9 roaches at that timing... it's pretty obvious. also I find it rather vulnerable to hellion runbys... you really have to look out for that.. You want to have your lings hidden on the other side of the map, ideally you can morph into banelings as soon as the roaches arrive. Hellion runbys shouldn't be too common, and if they are, reset your ling reinforcements and you should clean it up with queen/ling.
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This Build is an instant-win against Mech-Play since there is barely anything out to stop you
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On June 25 2012 11:26 frezMki wrote: This Build is an instant-win against Mech-Play since there is barely anything out to stop you
no it's not.
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On June 25 2012 12:13 LgNKane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 11:26 frezMki wrote: This Build is an instant-win against Mech-Play since there is barely anything out to stop you no it's not. I see what he's saying, usually FE --> Hellion play is a bit more vulnerable to roach/ling and roach/ling/baneling builds. I don't think it's an instant win though.
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On June 12 2012 19:50 HaXXspetten wrote:Stopped reading right there.
Ah, spelling snobs.
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nice guide, thanks tang. i'll definitely be giving this a try.
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On June 26 2012 06:34 houffy wrote: nice guide, thanks tang. i'll definitely be giving this a try. I recommend mixing the vioLet and Stephano variations and also mixing between executing it as an all-in, and as a stepping stone into your choice of macro.
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Now I'm pretty inexperienced, and don't have much of a clue when it comes to thinking about this game - so I'm posting here for you guys to show me why my thinking is wrong.
Is it reasonable (or even possible) to mix-and-match openings and transitions? I really how Stephano's build transitions, but I really hate grabbing gas so early (easy to scout, makes attacking them awkward when they have that much of a heads-up). So I'm tempted to adapt DRG's version of the opening, because it gas after lings. But I really love getting that third behind the push - is it reasonable to use a DRG opening, but still get that early third, instead of the macro hatch?
Furthermore can I not go muta but continue into infester/ling/bling/ultra, quick hive - like stephanos? Do you need to go muta to deny drops if you open with DRG's but not Stephanos? Does DRG builds put the Terran in a position where they basically have to go for drop play, thus putting me in a position where I need mutas to deny?
Is the answer it to take a later gas with the stephano (perhaps at 23) opening and just keep the drones mining gas?
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On July 12 2012 12:17 AndySCWilson wrote: Now I'm pretty inexperienced, and don't have much of a clue when it comes to thinking about this game - so I'm posting here for you guys to show me why my thinking is wrong.
Is it reasonable (or even possible) to mix-and-match openings and transitions? I really how Stephano's build transitions, but I really hate grabbing gas so early (easy to scout, makes attacking them awkward when they have that much of a heads-up). So I'm tempted to adapt DRG's version of the opening, because it gas after lings. But I really love getting that third behind the push - is it reasonable to use a DRG opening, but still get that early third, instead of the macro hatch?
Furthermore can I not go muta but continue into infester/ling/bling/ultra, quick hive - like stephanos? Do you need to go muta to deny drops if you open with DRG's but not Stephanos? Does DRG builds put the Terran in a position where they basically have to go for drop play, thus putting me in a position where I need mutas to deny?
Is the answer it to take a later gas with the stephano (perhaps at 23) opening and just keep the drones mining gas?
Yeah if I am doing some sort of roach/bane/ling all in I get gases after lings are out so that lings + queens deny any scouting.
YOu can take the third instead of macro hatch there is nothing stopping you, you can go ling/bane/ultra/infestor again nothing is stopping you its up to you how to transition. There are no rules stating that because you are copying what DRG is doing means you have to do exactly what he is doing.
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On July 12 2012 12:52 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:17 AndySCWilson wrote: Now I'm pretty inexperienced, and don't have much of a clue when it comes to thinking about this game - so I'm posting here for you guys to show me why my thinking is wrong.
Is it reasonable (or even possible) to mix-and-match openings and transitions? I really how Stephano's build transitions, but I really hate grabbing gas so early (easy to scout, makes attacking them awkward when they have that much of a heads-up). So I'm tempted to adapt DRG's version of the opening, because it gas after lings. But I really love getting that third behind the push - is it reasonable to use a DRG opening, but still get that early third, instead of the macro hatch?
Furthermore can I not go muta but continue into infester/ling/bling/ultra, quick hive - like stephanos? Do you need to go muta to deny drops if you open with DRG's but not Stephanos? Does DRG builds put the Terran in a position where they basically have to go for drop play, thus putting me in a position where I need mutas to deny?
Is the answer it to take a later gas with the stephano (perhaps at 23) opening and just keep the drones mining gas? Yeah if I am doing some sort of roach/bane/ling all in I get gases after lings are out so that lings + queens deny any scouting. YOu can take the third instead of macro hatch there is nothing stopping you, you can go ling/bane/ultra/infestor again nothing is stopping you its up to you how to transition. There are no rules stating that because you are copying what DRG is doing means you have to do exactly what he is doing. blade is absolutely right - you can transition in any number of ways. I actually like where your head is, AndySCWilson, with the delayed early gas opening and the fast third, with a transition into Infestor/Ling/Ultra. That's usually what I do after any form of early roach/ling or roach/ling/baneling timing.
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I've been trying a variation on stephano's variation :D. I get 2 more gas at 36 and put 2 drones in each, in addition to the one in my main of course, giving me 3 gases with 2 drones on each. This gives me a little more gas (~100) around the 8:30 mark, which i can either use for more banelings or earlier tech in my transition to a macro game.
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really good guide :D this is coming back into fashion against terrans who are uber greedy aka 3 cc -> double ebay
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Great formatting and resources in this guide, great job Tang.
A lot has been discussed about the positive and negatives of each but how about from a Terran perspective? What are the best BOs to choose and what are effective ways to follow up for a solid mid game?
The best two I can come up with are: (After 1 rax FE)
-Rushing siege tank and going 3CC fast upgrade style. (I've tested the build and you can get 3 tanks out w/ siege mode before 8:30
-Going for a 1/1/1 hellion + banshee with 1-2 bunkers. Hellions allow you to spot the all-in coming early and prepare by maynarding scvs into the main and getting extra bunkers etc. The banshees allow you to take pot shots on the roach/baneling before they attack and possibly counter aggression on the 3rd (Although I haven't tested this much yet so not sure if Z can have queens + spore prepared for this)
As Terran i see 2 base aggression from Z almost 30% of my games even before this guide and It's something I'm certainly having trouble with.
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On July 22 2012 12:24 734pot wrote: I've been trying a variation on stephano's variation :D. I get 2 more gas at 36 and put 2 drones in each, in addition to the one in my main of course, giving me 3 gases with 2 drones on each. This gives me a little more gas (~100) around the 8:30 mark, which i can either use for more banelings or earlier tech in my transition to a macro game. Hmm I didn't know double-mining geysers was that much better.
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In my opinion it would be better if you used drone count instead of suply in some cases. Like when you say make rouch warren and baneling then drone back to 44 suply it would be better if it was drone back to 38 drones.
You can easely lose drones or be forced to make lings wich screws up the build order and you can easely get back to right drone count in some cases.
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On July 22 2012 21:14 Vies wrote: Great formatting and resources in this guide, great job Tang.
A lot has been discussed about the positive and negatives of each but how about from a Terran perspective? What are the best BOs to choose and what are effective ways to follow up for a solid mid game?
The best two I can come up with are: (After 1 rax FE)
-Rushing siege tank and going 3CC fast upgrade style. (I've tested the build and you can get 3 tanks out w/ siege mode before 8:30
-Going for a 1/1/1 hellion + banshee with 1-2 bunkers. Hellions allow you to spot the all-in coming early and prepare by maynarding scvs into the main and getting extra bunkers etc. The banshees allow you to take pot shots on the roach/baneling before they attack and possibly counter aggression on the 3rd (Although I haven't tested this much yet so not sure if Z can have queens + spore prepared for this)
As Terran i see 2 base aggression from Z almost 30% of my games even before this guide and It's something I'm certainly having trouble with.
Rushing tanks into 3cc fast upgrades is suicide against any zerg who doesn't allin you (and they shouldn't when they see no hellions coming out - even if it's bio, roach baneling is terrible against a bio opener; ling-bling bust is better against that as roaches really are trash and only good if terrans built too many hellions). I used to do it and you have no good timings. Sure you get 2-2 1-0 pretty fast but by then the zerg should have 4/5 bases and creeped the map and your push should get crushed. Going fast tanks into something other than marine tank (mech, bc) are something I don't have experience with though, maybe it plays out better.
As for defending it, you can get at least 2 hellions. Somehow scout they don't have 3rd (scv, you can safely push across map with 4 marines and leave one in bunker at home, or the first 2 hellions) and if you don't, just go for tanks after that. If the bunker at home is against a cliff and has a depot nearby partially walling it, even if you get suprised by a ton of speedlings, the bunker at home + hellions coming soon should keep you decently safe.
The marines alone should def either scout the lack of a 3rd or see a ton of lings at least. The tank with seige should come out in decent time, if you don't go beyond 4 hellions. If you go for banshees you better have a 3rd oc because the roaches will kill so many scvs as the banshee kills it. Going up to 4 hellions is a different story of course, if the Zerg doesn't go for the later double gas and instead goes for a gas when your scouting scv is still around. If you see that I'd build 2 hellions and then switch before you even scout. Of course the Zerg could be going for a speedling opener but that's rare in my games, and the quick 7roaches after 15hat hit super soon, so I'd also be getting maruders and a bunker if you see quicker gas.
The lack of damage hellions do now is another story, but defending/scouting roach baneling imo isn't too terrible, and I honestly look forward to it because it's so much better then playing against a Zerg who goes 6queen/3hatch, unless I get lucky and get to bunker their 3rd as it goes up.
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On July 23 2012 17:41 teamamerica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 21:14 Vies wrote: Great formatting and resources in this guide, great job Tang.
A lot has been discussed about the positive and negatives of each but how about from a Terran perspective? What are the best BOs to choose and what are effective ways to follow up for a solid mid game?
The best two I can come up with are: (After 1 rax FE)
-Rushing siege tank and going 3CC fast upgrade style. (I've tested the build and you can get 3 tanks out w/ siege mode before 8:30
-Going for a 1/1/1 hellion + banshee with 1-2 bunkers. Hellions allow you to spot the all-in coming early and prepare by maynarding scvs into the main and getting extra bunkers etc. The banshees allow you to take pot shots on the roach/baneling before they attack and possibly counter aggression on the 3rd (Although I haven't tested this much yet so not sure if Z can have queens + spore prepared for this)
As Terran i see 2 base aggression from Z almost 30% of my games even before this guide and It's something I'm certainly having trouble with. Rushing tanks into 3cc fast upgrades is suicide against any zerg who doesn't allin you. I used to do it and you have no good timings. Sure you get 2-2 1-0 pretty fast but by then the zerg should have 4/5 bases and creeped the map and your push should get crushed. Well you have to hit a very strong midgame timing or do lots of drops. The thing is, Zerg could just not bust when they see tanks and then macro up and be even.
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If you want to make the quide even more informative you should add details like what you target or how to micro during the bust. (targeting helions with rouches and what do you try to kill first)
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On July 25 2012 23:22 SacredCoconut wrote: If you want to make the quide even more informative you should add details like what you target or how to micro during the bust. (targeting helions with rouches and what do you try to kill first) Yeah I did neglect the execution a bit. It's pretty situational, but generally you want your banelings to connect with groups of units (ideally marine/hellion/scvs). You usually want roaches to lead up ramps and whatnot, as 8+ roaches can break a depot in a matter of seconds. They also tank the most damage and will help to keep your lings/banelings alive to surround/explode on his bigger groups of units. As you mention, you want hellions to get focused down by roaches if you can, since they do the most damage to your zerglings. You can use the lings to surround the hellions too, though.
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Alright I have a question. I'm only top silver (terran) and I played a platinum zerg who did this. I was going for a 1rax fe 10:00 timing and he got me before 10:00 due to the nature of the timing, I probably should have scouted better but whatever..
The thing is he got into my main and basically killed all but a handful of scvs and then once I finally got all his lings out he just left.. Now does this mean that because he didn't do enough damage and realized he would be behind the rest of the game? or did he just lose connection? lol
Also he didn't ever expand so it was more of an all in than just hoping for damage..
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On September 03 2012 13:51 A3mercury wrote: Alright I have a question. I'm only top silver (terran) and I played a platinum zerg who did this. I was going for a 1rax fe 10:00 timing and he got me before 10:00 due to the nature of the timing, I probably should have scouted better but whatever..
The thing is he got into my main and basically killed all but a handful of scvs and then once I finally got all his lings out he just left.. Now does this mean that because he didn't do enough damage and realized he would be behind the rest of the game? or did he just lose connection? lol
Also he didn't ever expand so it was more of an all in than just hoping for damage.. Definitely sounds like he either DC'd or thought he was more behind than he was. He doesn't have to take a third to be ahead, he could take it after as long as he does enough damage to your economy/army.
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I don't know why people rag on you for being a cheesy all-in player. You really put the fun back into the game. You really play this game with the intention of causing as much damage as possible. Hit them hard and fast I say!
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ive adapted my own version of this build that i feel is better in our current meta game and also is able to be done reactionally.
15 hatch 16 pool 2x queens 2 sets of lings 2x queens double gas at 4:45 @100 gas ling speed and take 3 guys off gas @50% ling speed drop roach warren drop 3rd build 5 overlords build drones but make sure you have 750 minerals and 10 lava when roach warren pops (sorry not completely refined. note drones should be before the overlords but im not sure how many to build and still get 5 overlords out and 750 minerals) @95% roach warren 3 guys in gas @100% roach warren 10 roaches @ 50 gas bane nest lings lings lings @100% bane nest morph 10 banes. it should now be 9:30 and you have 10 banes 10 roaches and at least 40 lings right outside the enemy base. from here you can straight up drone or all in.
The idea of the build is to make it look like a normal queen build with no gas and a 3rd. using 2 queens at the front to deny scouting. it also transitions well back into economy with a 3rd almost already completed.
I think the 3rd would probably lower your potential drone count quite significantly but im not sure you would even have the lava to burn all the minerals from extra drones. unless you plan to transition into 2 base lair i think its a good option.
Im also trying to refine a build which hits with similar forces but a lot sooner since this build could cut out a lot and be much more all in.
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On September 10 2012 22:37 Turbogangsta wrote: ive adapted my own version of this build that i feel is better in our current meta game and also is able to be done reactionally.
15 hatch 16 pool 2x queens 2 sets of lings 2x queens double gas at 4:45 @100 gas ling speed and take 3 guys off gas @50% ling speed drop roach warren drop 3rd build 5 overlords build drones but make sure you have 750 minerals and 10 lava when roach warren pops (sorry not completely refined. note drones should be before the overlords but im not sure how many to build and still get 5 overlords out and 750 minerals) @95% roach warren 3 guys in gas @100% roach warren 10 roaches @ 50 gas bane nest lings lings lings @100% bane nest morph 10 banes. it should now be 9:30 and you have 10 banes 10 roaches and at least 40 lings right outside the enemy base. from here you can straight up drone or all in.
The idea of the build is to make it look like a normal queen build with no gas and a 3rd. using 2 queens at the front to deny scouting. it also transitions well back into economy with a 3rd almost already completed.
I think the 3rd would probably lower your potential drone count quite significantly but im not sure you would even have the lava to burn all the minerals from extra drones. unless you plan to transition into 2 base lair i think its a good option.
Im also trying to refine a build which hits with similar forces but a lot sooner since this build could cut out a lot and be much more all in.
Yeah I believe it was Line who started taking the third before building roaches, while still execution the R/L/B bust. It's definitely more transition-friendly, and a bit of a "metagame" tactic in that Terran players who scout the third timing may not prepare for such a bust. Still, the attack hits later, which means a player who opens banshees will have that much more time to pick off your morphing banelings. Hitting at 9:30 could easily mean the difference between siege tech being done as well, so I think there's pros and cons to both sides.
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I managed to get DRG's timing down to around 7:30 ingame minutes -> this was when I started morphing banelings outside of the base and not when the attack hit. The only thing I did different was not drone scout + not really transferring drones, so I managed to build and saturate my natural earlier. This build is so economical, I can't help feel that you need a macro hatch as soon as the attack hits since you will be floating alot of minerals and you only really need 3 gas to support ling/baneling map control.
I think the transition is a little late though. Inbetween sets of lings, 2x evo's need to be up for a solid midgame should it have to go to that. I suggest at 9minutes when you take the lair and 3rd/4th gas. Then +1/+1 should be finished by 11/12 minutes hopefully. With the addition of the Spire, this build transitions into an excellent standard mutaling game.
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how is this different from your other banelinga ll in? can someone link me that guide? i forgot it
which variation is the most effecitve for ladder? lol thanks
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Very nice guide, well formatted, I think it's very nice that you've included several versions. However, as stated by yourself, Stephano will often do a bust at around 8.20, while safely transitioning into macro afterwards. I think you should do a guide on this style, complex as it may not or may be. A lot of people seem to fear the agressive nature of Zerg, and this might be something of a good introduction to it? Imo, the 8.20 macrobust seems to be a good way to do damage while not sacrificing too much, but more importantly, keeping the initiative (which I personally love to do in ZvX.) I'll provide some Stephano replays as a reference, if you guys would like to study it. (Although, I guess most of you have seen these games.)
Stephano "macrobust" examples + Show Spoiler +
Again, huge thanks for your guides Tang! You deserve more attention than you get.
(Also, first post.)
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On September 19 2012 09:06 j.k.l wrote: how is this different from your other banelinga ll in? can someone link me that guide? i forgot it
which variation is the most effecitve for ladder? lol thanks http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306525
The DRG version is less all-in and arrives later with more units. Both styles are effective on ladder.
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I'm looking for a strong ZvT 2base all-in for low leagues and I don't mind if it's pure all-in. However, I also want to be safe against his own all-ins. So I would like to know if this is a BO loss against any terran cheese, like banshees or any other.
Your other 8:20 build seems cool because it hits earlier, but I'm concerned about going gas before pool because it seems like a BO loss to 2rax. You also don't drone scout so how do you deal with that?
Another detail I'm considering is if gas before pool will look more suspicious to him. The DRG version is more similar to standard play in gas timing and also a later roach warren, making it more unlikely he will see it coming.
Yet another possibility is going for your roach/ling (no banelings), which also seems potent. Which all-in you recommend to have high winrate until diamond (if I execute it well) and be safe against his cheese at the same time?
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On October 12 2012 00:12 Azoryen wrote: I'm looking for a strong ZvT 2base all-in for low leagues and I don't mind if it's pure all-in. However, I also want to be safe against his own all-ins. So I would like to know if this is a BO lose against any terran cheese, like banshees or any other.
Your other 8:20 build seems cool because it hits earlier, but I'm concerned about going gas before pool because it seems like a BO lose to 2rax. You also don't drone scout so how do you deal with that?
Another detail I'm considering is if gas before pool will look more suspicious to him. The DRG version is more similar to standard play in gas timing and also a later roach warren, making it more unlikely he will see it coming.
Yet another possibility is going for your roach/ling (no banelings), which also seems potent. Which all-in you recommend to have high winrate until diamond (if I execute it well) and be safe against his cheese at the same time? Well gas before pool isn't really a build order loss against 2rax, just makes it a bit harder to hold because you need to pull out of gas asap. I would recommend the Roach/Ling All-In that hits around 7:00. You only need 19 drones and 2 Queens, so it's VERY aggressive and early.
Unfortunately, there is no all-in build that you can do that will be 100% safe against a 2-rax all-in though. You just need to be able to defend it. The good thing about going gas-first in this scenario is you can actually sacrifice your expansion and go for a Roach/Ling/Baneling all-in (Something I've used successful against top master/gm 2-rax timings).
Here's a video that may help: http://tangstarcraft.com/?p=1775
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Unfortunately with the evolution of the recent Hellion/Banshee opening being the most standard and common nowadays, that opening hard-counters just about every push labeled here that hits after 8:20 or so.
I agree with Tang that we Zergs need to look at pushes that hit earlier than that mark since most T will just blindly hellion/banshee and we have no choice but to have very specific reactions.
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On October 12 2012 02:26 sCCrooked wrote: Unfortunately with the evolution of the recent Hellion/Banshee opening being the most standard and common nowadays, that opening hard-counters just about every push labeled here that hits after 8:20 or so.
I agree with Tang that we Zergs need to look at pushes that hit earlier than that mark since most T will just blindly hellion/banshee and we have no choice but to have very specific reactions. Sorry if this a noob question, but could you be more specific as why Hellion/Banshee build hard counters the all-in in this thread? From what I've seen, mech builds are very greedy, at 8:45 terran has 3OC's and almonst no units, so it would seem like the all-in works even better in that case. What am I missing?
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On October 12 2012 03:58 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 02:26 sCCrooked wrote: Unfortunately with the evolution of the recent Hellion/Banshee opening being the most standard and common nowadays, that opening hard-counters just about every push labeled here that hits after 8:20 or so.
I agree with Tang that we Zergs need to look at pushes that hit earlier than that mark since most T will just blindly hellion/banshee and we have no choice but to have very specific reactions. Sorry if this a noob question, but could you be more specific as why Hellion/Banshee build hard counters the all-in in this thread? From what I've seen, mech builds are very greedy, at 8:45 terran has 3OC's and almonst no units, so it would seem like the all-in works even better in that case. What am I missing? The majority of banshee builds will have several banshees out by the time your roaches/lings move across the map. They can do a TON of damage to your roaches moving out, and even snipe your morphing banelings (Crucial to breaking the depots/bunkers). So if the R/L/B attack does little damage, Hellion/Banshee is ahead because they have map control and can harass with Banshees / Cloak, forcing additional Queens/Spores which delays your tech. It makes it very difficult as Zerg to reach a solid 3-base economy in time to hold any follow-up timings (Mech or Marine-Tank). You're pretty much forced to cut drones as Zerg to get enough Roach/Ling to survive, then you're in a weird spot with late infestors etc.
tl;dr, most standard hellion/banshee builds can defend/end up ahead against Roach/Ling/Baneling busts.
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On October 12 2012 10:07 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 03:58 Azoryen wrote:On October 12 2012 02:26 sCCrooked wrote: Unfortunately with the evolution of the recent Hellion/Banshee opening being the most standard and common nowadays, that opening hard-counters just about every push labeled here that hits after 8:20 or so.
I agree with Tang that we Zergs need to look at pushes that hit earlier than that mark since most T will just blindly hellion/banshee and we have no choice but to have very specific reactions. Sorry if this a noob question, but could you be more specific as why Hellion/Banshee build hard counters the all-in in this thread? From what I've seen, mech builds are very greedy, at 8:45 terran has 3OC's and almonst no units, so it would seem like the all-in works even better in that case. What am I missing? The majority of banshee builds will have several banshees out by the time your roaches/lings move across the map. They can do a TON of damage to your roaches moving out, and even snipe your morphing banelings (Crucial to breaking the depots/bunkers). So if the R/L/B attack does little damage, Hellion/Banshee is ahead because they have map control and can harass with Banshees / Cloak, forcing additional Queens/Spores which delays your tech. It makes it very difficult as Zerg to reach a solid 3-base economy in time to hold any follow-up timings (Mech or Marine-Tank). You're pretty much forced to cut drones as Zerg to get enough Roach/Ling to survive, then you're in a weird spot with late infestors etc. tl;dr, most standard hellion/banshee builds can defend/end up ahead against Roach/Ling/Baneling busts. So basically this is only viable after scouting that T is going for bio or marine/tank/medivac after he 1raxFE? Is it possible to get that scouting information before you commit to the all-in?
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On October 12 2012 10:07 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 03:58 Azoryen wrote:On October 12 2012 02:26 sCCrooked wrote: Unfortunately with the evolution of the recent Hellion/Banshee opening being the most standard and common nowadays, that opening hard-counters just about every push labeled here that hits after 8:20 or so.
I agree with Tang that we Zergs need to look at pushes that hit earlier than that mark since most T will just blindly hellion/banshee and we have no choice but to have very specific reactions. Sorry if this a noob question, but could you be more specific as why Hellion/Banshee build hard counters the all-in in this thread? From what I've seen, mech builds are very greedy, at 8:45 terran has 3OC's and almonst no units, so it would seem like the all-in works even better in that case. What am I missing? The majority of banshee builds will have several banshees out by the time your roaches/lings move across the map. They can do a TON of damage to your roaches moving out, and even snipe your morphing banelings (Crucial to breaking the depots/bunkers). So if the R/L/B attack does little damage, Hellion/Banshee is ahead because they have map control and can harass with Banshees / Cloak, forcing additional Queens/Spores which delays your tech. It makes it very difficult as Zerg to reach a solid 3-base economy in time to hold any follow-up timings (Mech or Marine-Tank). You're pretty much forced to cut drones as Zerg to get enough Roach/Ling to survive, then you're in a weird spot with late infestors etc. tl;dr, most standard hellion/banshee builds can defend/end up ahead against Roach/Ling/Baneling busts.
2 base muta seems to be the only viable all in versus hellion/banshee, but I'm not sure if you can do that after scout. It almost seems like a blind metagame thing whenever I've seen it.
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On October 17 2012 03:38 Indrium wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 10:07 TangSC wrote:On October 12 2012 03:58 Azoryen wrote:On October 12 2012 02:26 sCCrooked wrote: Unfortunately with the evolution of the recent Hellion/Banshee opening being the most standard and common nowadays, that opening hard-counters just about every push labeled here that hits after 8:20 or so.
I agree with Tang that we Zergs need to look at pushes that hit earlier than that mark since most T will just blindly hellion/banshee and we have no choice but to have very specific reactions. Sorry if this a noob question, but could you be more specific as why Hellion/Banshee build hard counters the all-in in this thread? From what I've seen, mech builds are very greedy, at 8:45 terran has 3OC's and almonst no units, so it would seem like the all-in works even better in that case. What am I missing? The majority of banshee builds will have several banshees out by the time your roaches/lings move across the map. They can do a TON of damage to your roaches moving out, and even snipe your morphing banelings (Crucial to breaking the depots/bunkers). So if the R/L/B attack does little damage, Hellion/Banshee is ahead because they have map control and can harass with Banshees / Cloak, forcing additional Queens/Spores which delays your tech. It makes it very difficult as Zerg to reach a solid 3-base economy in time to hold any follow-up timings (Mech or Marine-Tank). You're pretty much forced to cut drones as Zerg to get enough Roach/Ling to survive, then you're in a weird spot with late infestors etc. tl;dr, most standard hellion/banshee builds can defend/end up ahead against Roach/Ling/Baneling busts. 2 base muta seems to be the only viable all in versus hellion/banshee, but I'm not sure if you can do that after scout. It almost seems like a blind metagame thing whenever I've seen it. Can you be more specific about the build please? I believe the most common now is fast 3OC and that should be vulnerable to all-ins as it's so greedy, right?
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On October 17 2012 08:12 Azoryen wrote: Can you be more specific about the build please? I believe the most common now is fast 3OC and that should be vulnerable to all-ins as it's so greedy, right?
Yeah it's super vulnerable to all-ins, I don't know why I don't see it more. There're various all-ins that Z can do where T players are very vulnerable, like 2/3base bane busts, roach busts, etc.
I'm assuming pro players are better about defending these all-ins, but my experience is that unless they go mass rax and delay tech, you can usually win with an early enough bust.
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On October 17 2012 08:33 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 08:12 Azoryen wrote: Can you be more specific about the build please? I believe the most common now is fast 3OC and that should be vulnerable to all-ins as it's so greedy, right?
Yeah it's super vulnerable to all-ins, I don't know why I don't see it more. There're various all-ins that Z can do where T players are very vulnerable, like 2/3base bane busts, roach busts, etc. I'm assuming pro players are better about defending these all-ins, but my experience is that unless they go mass rax and delay tech, you can usually win with an early enough bust. So why are all these good player saying banshee/hellion is unbreakable? Are they talking about a different build? Reactor hellion before expo maybe? That's not very common now is it?
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People here are too broad with hellion/banshee. Yeah atleast in my experience if terran goes 1 rack expand into 2 gas hellion/banshee its prety much hard counter to the version in the opening, but if terran goes 3oc and then hellion/banshee it will probely do damage or kill them.
Edit. if you are thinking about other all ins i am prety positive 7 rouch and mass speedling (gas before pool) after hatch first are viable.
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On October 17 2012 08:41 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 08:33 Defenestrator wrote:On October 17 2012 08:12 Azoryen wrote: Can you be more specific about the build please? I believe the most common now is fast 3OC and that should be vulnerable to all-ins as it's so greedy, right?
Yeah it's super vulnerable to all-ins, I don't know why I don't see it more. There're various all-ins that Z can do where T players are very vulnerable, like 2/3base bane busts, roach busts, etc. I'm assuming pro players are better about defending these all-ins, but my experience is that unless they go mass rax and delay tech, you can usually win with an early enough bust. So why are all these good player saying banshee/hellion is unbreakable? Are they talking about a different build? Reactor hellion before expo maybe? That's not very common now is it?
I'm not sure to be honest, if you open something like 15h/16p/16g into a bane bust allin, it hits before banshee and when there's like maybe 2-4 hellions who goes CC-first, so you can kill a T player pretty easily with this.
If you want to allin, you have to open pretty early gas, and 2-base allins are a lot easier to execute and much faster than 3-base allins, of course.
Just intuitively, any decent roach/bane timing that hits an early expo T player who goes straight into hellion/banshee tech will do a ton of damage. Hellions in small numbers are not that good vs roaches or mass speedling/banes. Here's a quick build for bane bust:
15h/16p/16g drone until pool finishes, 2 queens, constant ling production at 100gas, speed, at 50 gas, bane nest send lings outside his base, morph banes
Obviously things like scout denial is good, but if they go straight into a tech build this feels like a build order loss to me when I've done it. I forget the exact timing of this build, but it hits pretty early... definitely before banshee.
I think the main reason you see this less nowadays is because most Z players open gasless with pure queen for 3base eco. If a T player scouts gas though with his SCV, I would think that he should delay tech a little in case of an allin. This can be held with 2-3 rax marines behind a rax wall, but I don't think much else stands up well to a bane bust.
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I think it's more worthwhile to look into huge timings that hit around 10 minutes when terran's production is just starting to kick in after a hellion/banshee 3cc opener. I've seen speed roach or roach/queen/nydus builds succeed at these timings, along with 2 base muta/baneling. That's what I recommend if Tang is looking to make another guide on aggressive ZvT.
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On October 17 2012 10:30 oOOoOphidian wrote: I think it's more worthwhile to look into huge timings that hit around 10 minutes when terran's production is just starting to kick in after a hellion/banshee 3cc opener. I've seen speed roach or roach/queen/nydus builds succeed at these timings, along with 2 base muta/baneling. That's what I recommend if Tang is looking to make another guide on aggressive ZvT. There are large Roach/Ling/Baneling timings with speed and +1 armor that hit around 10 minutes, but I think the Muta/Baneling is the better option. I've been asked by quite a few people to do a guide on that 2-base all-in.
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Very nice. I like Stephano's the best because of the third hatch. That's the one I would usually go with when I went with this build. If you do no damage you're pretty far behind so in that sense it's an all in.
You should also try to find a game from Hyun where he does a variation of this build. (Sorry don't have a link and am at work so I can't find the game.) What was notable about Hyun's variation was that he broke his units up into groups based on type (blings, lings and roaches) and had them attack at staggered times so that the lings and roaches converged at the same time immediately behind the blings. It was imipressive. It was like this all-in version 2.0.
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This build is neigh unbeatable for a Terran player going hellion/banshee. The push usually hits with 2 marines in a bunker, 1 banshee, and 6 hellions 7-12 roaches one shot the bunker and any other you may have made, force the scvs out of the natural, break the wall and go to kill 50-90% of your workers while hellions try to chip away usually getting one shotted themselves and a single banshee tries to focus down all the roaches while lings go waywire with depots, addons, and your refineries. This build even cross positions is guaranteed damage that sets up an unfair advantage for the zerg who will power drones behind this quickly saturating a 3rd.
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On October 25 2012 06:42 dj.ricecakes wrote: This build is neigh unbeatable for a Terran player going hellion/banshee. The push usually hits with 2 marines in a bunker, 1 banshee, and 6 hellions 7-12 roaches one shot the bunker and any other you may have made, force the scvs out of the natural, break the wall and go to kill 50-90% of your workers while hellions try to chip away usually getting one shotted themselves and a single banshee tries to focus down all the roaches while lings go waywire with depots, addons, and your refineries. This build even cross positions is guaranteed damage that sets up an unfair advantage for the zerg who will power drones behind this quickly saturating a 3rd.
All a terran needs is a few more bunkers, maybe a barracks wall off, and a siege tank or two and it easily stops this build, I know from experience. It is not an unfair advantage at all, if the attack fails you have an extreme disadvantage, if Terran gets quick Siege mode it just flat out fails.
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What is the best way to execute this build vs Protoss?
I 14 pool 15 hatch, but maybe it is due to my bad mechanic but the Protoss most often has a sentry to block the ramp by the time my attack hits.
Is there an alternative? Maybe just Speedling/Baneling bust?
Please help.
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On October 25 2012 07:41 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 06:42 dj.ricecakes wrote: This build is neigh unbeatable for a Terran player going hellion/banshee. The push usually hits with 2 marines in a bunker, 1 banshee, and 6 hellions 7-12 roaches one shot the bunker and any other you may have made, force the scvs out of the natural, break the wall and go to kill 50-90% of your workers while hellions try to chip away usually getting one shotted themselves and a single banshee tries to focus down all the roaches while lings go waywire with depots, addons, and your refineries. This build even cross positions is guaranteed damage that sets up an unfair advantage for the zerg who will power drones behind this quickly saturating a 3rd. All a terran needs is a few more bunkers, maybe a barracks wall off, and a siege tank or two and it easily stops this build, I know from experience. It is not an unfair advantage at all, if the attack fails you have an extreme disadvantage, if Terran gets quick Siege mode it just flat out fails.
Nope. The attack hits at 8:30 mins, what Terran has enough Siege Tanks (if any) to stop this?
Also, you only need 1 more wave of Lings to follow up.. Whilst all this is happening, the Zerg has put up his 3rd, teched (or teching) to lair and has put up a macro hatch. With 2 base full mineral saturation he has enough resources. For the attack to 'fail', the Zerg has to be asleep.. Otherwise blowing up bunkers/depots, killing workers, stop mining at the natural is enough damage to put him ahead.
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United Kingdom20157 Posts
On January 30 2013 08:43 NarAliya wrote: What is the best way to execute this build vs Protoss?
I 14 pool 15 hatch, but maybe it is due to my bad mechanic but the Protoss most often has a sentry to block the ramp by the time my attack hits.
Is there an alternative? Maybe just Speedling/Baneling bust?
Please help.
This is a very specifically ZvT opening
On January 30 2013 08:46 NarAliya wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 07:41 GGzerG wrote:On October 25 2012 06:42 dj.ricecakes wrote: This build is neigh unbeatable for a Terran player going hellion/banshee. The push usually hits with 2 marines in a bunker, 1 banshee, and 6 hellions 7-12 roaches one shot the bunker and any other you may have made, force the scvs out of the natural, break the wall and go to kill 50-90% of your workers while hellions try to chip away usually getting one shotted themselves and a single banshee tries to focus down all the roaches while lings go waywire with depots, addons, and your refineries. This build even cross positions is guaranteed damage that sets up an unfair advantage for the zerg who will power drones behind this quickly saturating a 3rd. All a terran needs is a few more bunkers, maybe a barracks wall off, and a siege tank or two and it easily stops this build, I know from experience. It is not an unfair advantage at all, if the attack fails you have an extreme disadvantage, if Terran gets quick Siege mode it just flat out fails. Nope. The attack hits at 8:30 mins, what Terran has enough Siege Tanks (if any) to stop this? Also, you only need 1 more wave of Lings to follow up.. Whilst all this is happening, the Zerg has put up his 3rd, teched (or teching) to lair and has put up a macro hatch. With 2 base full mineral saturation he has enough resources. For the attack to 'fail', the Zerg has to be asleep.. Otherwise blowing up bunkers/depots, killing workers, stop mining at the natural is enough damage to put him ahead.
You are quoting a four month old post
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Drg was a master at these two base timings in this meta game- vs protoss when they almost always 3 gate expod you'd simply make 7-10 roaches at 40 food, pull gas drones and ling ling ling "the zerg 4 gate"
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