[G] PvT - Liquid`NonY's 1/1 Colossus Push
Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Sated
England4983 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Why would you add a forge into this timing? Upgrades are not that stellar for a colossus push because you tend to be stalker heavy, a unit that hardly benefits from upgrades. It weakens the timing and doesn't even make you transition that much better as you can easily go for the timing and drop double forge if you want to transition instead. I think colo pushes are best just starting off with a 1 gate FE into 3 gate robo. If you see they expanded and suspect they are on normal play or a fast third you can drop a fast support bay and just go push when you have 2 colo and range. Adding in a forge or expanding too late slows down the push tremendously which gives up the window of opportunity. Pushing early means you push before substantial medivacs/vikings are out which removes the option of a base trade or just an easy defense with vikings for them. A colo push vs T basically depends on your colossi being able to abuse range before vikings counter them too well. The timing in this guide is so late that when you're up agianst standard play they can easily have a couple medivacs AND a bunch of vikings already. At that point they can punish you when you're moving out with a drop and/or they can defend the push with vikings. Nony's 2 gate robo play is just horribly outdated nowadays. Back when maps where substantially smaller and more random scary stuff for terran existed (thor allin's, blue flame hellion drops, 1-1-1 etc.) it was fairly good. Nowadays 1 gate FE can easily stop all these funky plays and is just critical in keeping up with 1 rax FE or even CC first. | ||
SilSol
Sweden2744 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
Still i think 1gate expo is much better for eco and for a faster hit timming. Also, for a +1/+1 collosus push, not offense but Genius have done it a lot of times in the gsl with +50% success, and i find it more than the Tyler build. Also i think that the timings from the preparation for a GSL code S match should be tighter than the ones from anyone else. Genius vs MVP, GSL 2012 Season 3, Ohana i believe, an example of it. Also Genius vs MKP in an older GSL. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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HuTSC2
Australia188 Posts
How does this not just die to marauders + medivacs in good numbers which Terran SHOULD have? | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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459
Sweden69 Posts
Going to try it out. And maybe compare it to the squirtle build and see how it feels. Is this build especially bad / good at any maps? Grats to over 2k posts. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
On December 14 2012 17:47 Sated wrote: Squirtle's build hits much earlier and so moves out against a Terran who probably won't have any Vikings. This obviously makes the Colossi really strong as they don't have a direct counter. In exchange for this earlier timing, you have a much smaller army size advantage, less reinforcement capability and no upgrades. This build moves out with a much bigger army advantage, more reinforcement capability, 1/1 upgrades, and against a Terran who is likely to be spread out over 3 bases. In exchange, you're likely to be going up against a Terran who has Vikings ready to counter your Colossi, placing more emphasis on Stalker/Force Field micro than with Squirtle's build. Which is better? I don't really think you can compare them that easily since they are designed to hit different timings and require different levels of control, but I guess you'd have to say that Squirtle's build is better since it's more widely used. I just don't personally like opening 1 Gate FE. Stalker Force Field More seriously, you're underestimating the army value advantage this build accumulates over the course of the game... That is a PvP game... | ||
eslostdevil
Australia2 Posts
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iKill
Denmark861 Posts
On December 14 2012 17:03 Salivanth wrote: What do you think about ST_Squirtle's 2-base Colossus all-in in comparison to this one? It hits a lot faster with the same 3 ranged Colossi, but without upgrades. (It also only goes up to 6 gates, since it hits faster and all.) Do you have a BO on that build, actually? I've been looking for it forever. | ||
ThaSlayer
707 Posts
I think he meant to show two tosses doing different builds and how Nony's build came on top. Comparison. | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Dubsy
Canada186 Posts
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Complete
United States1864 Posts
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On December 15 2012 01:05 Complete wrote: Slightly off topic: Does nony really still 2G robo expand in PvT on ladder a lot? STParting 2 gate robo expo's when he wants to be safe... 2 gate robo expo requires the Protoss to be correspondingly aggressive while losing very few units, but it's by no means a no longer valid way to play. Just the vast majority of players can't micro and scout macro during an actual game so they lose on many fronts... and then say it's unreliable and much more inferior to faster expo builds than it really is. | ||
iref
Slovakia70 Posts
On December 15 2012 01:05 Complete wrote: Slightly off topic: Does nony really still 2G robo expand in PvT on ladder a lot? I think he mixes it with 1 gate FE. He also tries different timings a lot. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
Your production is SO hindered and late because of the late FE, fast robo, forge and upgrades. 2 gates until what... 6? 7? 8? min? | ||
robopork
United States511 Posts
On December 15 2012 08:30 iAmJeffReY wrote: You have basically no unit production from this build until you spend like 500 gas on collsai, robo support bay, and range... that's all before you get gate 3 and 4. You have like... no units. I feel a simple marine check, or a fast cs or stim push would wreck this. Or a hellion opening... Your production is SO hindered and late because of the late FE, fast robo, forge and upgrades. 2 gates until what... 6? 7? 8? min? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319339 Just as an example, this guide is still solid for most pvt scenarios, and kcdc's own twist safely relies on 2 gates (it's also fucking fun). edit: a nine scout or very reliable scouting poke would be essential, but I think you can read all of those scenarios with enough time to react accordingly. | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 15 2012 09:38 robopork wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319339 Just as an example, this guide is still solid for most pvt scenarios, and kcdc's own twist safely relies on 2 gates (it's also fucking fun). edit: a nine scout or very reliable scouting poke would be essential, but I think you can read all of those scenarios with enough time to react accordingly. No, that's 1 gate FE then 2nd gate. His FE is very early, as opposed to gate core gate robo OB nexus. Nexus is VERY late with this opening | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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RandomRice
United States303 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 15 2012 10:52 Sated wrote: This is the safest opening that a Protoss player can use. Not really sure what you're on about. Not only will the Protoss know if their opponent is up to something weird because of the early Observer, but they'll also have plenty of options since Robotics tech is unlocked so early into the game. Really don't know what you're getting at. 2 Gate Robo was recently used by Rain to trash Flash into the floor in the MLG Tournament of Champions. There is nothing wrong with the 2 Gate Robo opening. If I'm not mistaken, he went immortals...not collsai, forge +1/+1, and range... He did an immortal bust with sentries against one bunker.. Or maybe that was just the ohana game I saw. I'm saying your opening. Your opening as follows puts you in a very bad spot, with no production until you start up the 3rd and 4th gateway, collsai, and range. And "safe" doesn't always mean best. If someone is able to sniff this out, and makes a few bunkers, and places vikings in a good spot, you're all in and a bit in a rough patch. Your opening as is reads puts you incredibly behind against standard terran play, in my mind. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
of course you probably can still 1g fe if they wall off but if they deny your scout, it's hard to see if they went triple cc, normal 1rax fe into 3rax starport, 1/1/1, etc So with this build you are able to get a fast obs and scout their base The advantage of this build is it's really good against any 1 base Terran tactic The disadvantage is if Terran just normally expands, you will have to either completely outplay your opponent or you have to do damage like an immortal timing. | ||
applepielon
United States78 Posts
On December 15 2012 10:52 Sated wrote: This is the safest opening that a Protoss player can use. Not really sure what you're on about. Not only will the Protoss know if their opponent is up to something weird because of the early Observer, but they'll also have plenty of options since Robotics tech is unlocked so early into the game. Really don't know what you're getting at. 2 Gate Robo was recently used by Rain to trash Flash into the floor in the MLG Tournament of Champions. There is nothing wrong with the 2 Gate Robo opening. The thing about safe openings is that they become really UNSAFE later on, when you are too far behind to keep up with a greedier opponent. If there was some way to be safe all game obviously everyone would do that build, the fact is that there are tradeoffs. | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 15 2012 13:45 monk. wrote: Trying to convince Sated that his builds are overly safe is like trying to ram your head into a wall over and over again until you bleed out of your ears. You're not going to succeed so I wouldn't bother. ^.~ Noted. Good man, monk, good man. Monk is right, by the way. You won't convince me that opening like this is bad... mostly because I know it works at a much higher level than the level I play at. Opening is one thing. 2 gate robo is different than your 2 gate robo forge robosupport bay range collsai +1 armor, then 3/4 gate.... 2 gate robo is overly defensive. I think you could achieve same push, if not faster, off 1 gate FE and be just as safe. And 2 gate robo....vs 1-1-1, you should have no troubles in my mind. You have immortal tech, and ob for banshees. All you need is the get collsai out and defend that 1-1-1 and win. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 16 2012 00:57 Sated wrote: Apologies. By "opening" I thought you meant the 2 Gate Robo part of the build because the stuff that happens after you expand isn't what I'd consider the "opening" any more. Once the Observer is out, you should be using that scouting information to adjust the build if you're going up against something that's going to be good against this build (like a 111, for instance). Hell, if you see a dedicated 2 Rax coming across the map with your scouting Probe then you could even build an Immortal before building the Observer. As for the safety thing, and like I already said, I've never had a situation using the "macro" version of this build where I've felt I've lost because I didn't have enough stuff (bar occasions where I've screwed the build up or gotten massively supply blocked). I usually lose because I have awful control. I really think people in this community put too much emphasis on economy, as important as economy is. EDIT: Monk is right, by the way. You won't convince me that opening like this is bad... mostly because I know it works at a much higher level than the level I play at. Emphasis on economy... It goes hand in hand with production. You have low econ, and low production for a vast majority of the early game. Sure you have an early observer...good thing they can explode like baneli... oh. Low econ + low production into an influx of gates, 1/1 and collsai + range is a heavy, heavy all in. If it works at a higher level, you'd see it more often. You don't because it's not as effective as a 1 gate FE or nexus first. I almost NEVER see it used...ever. Maybe in a bo5 or bo7 and the terran player is going cc first, or 1 rax FE 3rd CC and protoss knows he's greedy...then it's used for a bulldog bust with immortals. Edit -- happy birthday too, sir! | ||
Whatson
United States5353 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
The only thing which I don't really like is that it hits right as the Terran also gets his 1/1, negating the potential upgrades advantage. Vikings didn't seem to be as problematic as I originally thought, you have so many stalkers it's not funny.. I think the main benefit of the build is that it's strong, it's a guaranteed kill if Terran plays too greedy, it puts you in a good position whatever build the Terran does ( even 1/1/1 ), and you're also pretty much guaranteed to destroy Terran's third if he took it. Even if you trade and lose your entire army, you're not that far behind and are guaranteed to continue a macro game. Upgrades/tech are decent, you can drop your own third as you push or if you do enough damage... basically there's no major weakness to this build that I can see. | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 16 2012 04:11 Nyast wrote: I tried this build today in 5 PvTs. I won 5-0, though the last game resulted in a base trade to my advantage. So I think it's a pretty good build ( and yeah I did the safe version with 2 gate robo, using all my chronos to probes when I felt safe, I was equal to the Terran's eco in the worst case ). The only thing which I don't really like is that it hits right as the Terran also gets his 1/1, negating the potential upgrades advantage. Vikings didn't seem to be as problematic as I originally thought, you have so many stalkers it's not funny.. I think the main benefit of the build is that it's strong, it's a guaranteed kill if Terran plays too greedy, it puts you in a good position whatever build the Terran does ( even 1/1/1 ), and you're also pretty much guaranteed to destroy Terran's third if he took it. Even if you trade and lose your entire army, you're not that far behind and are guaranteed to continue a macro game. Upgrades/tech are decent, you can drop your own third as you push or if you do enough damage... basically there's no major weakness to this build that I can see. Terran 1-1 just finishing at 12-13 minutes...? Eco the same with 2 gate robo vs 2 OC...? | ||
Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On December 16 2012 07:37 iAmJeffReY wrote: Terran 1-1 just finishing at 12-13 minutes...? Eco the same with 2 gate robo vs 2 OC...? Why do you mention 12-13 minutes ? I said the build was putting you in a good position versus 1/1/1, doesn't matter when the Terran pushes, you have a robo for immortals, an expo, a decent eco and a good number of gates anyway. Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later. | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 16 2012 21:57 Nyast wrote: Why do you mention 12-13 minutes ? I said the build was putting you in a good position versus 1/1/1, doesn't matter when the Terran pushes, you have a robo for immortals, an expo, a decent eco and a good number of gates anyway. Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later. lol It's not a minute later. And no, you won't be equal in econ. And no you won't be hitting 'right as the terran gets 1/1' as you said. What time does your expo fall? 3:10 roughly for a 1 rax FE. You're at uhm....5:30? 6? Mines been done, and dropping mules before yours has even started. No, you aren't even on econ. lol Let me see the replay, one of your "5-0" where you do this build, and have even econ with the terran. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On December 16 2012 21:57 Nyast wrote: Why do you mention 12-13 minutes ? I said the build was putting you in a good position versus 1/1/1, doesn't matter when the Terran pushes, you have a robo for immortals, an expo, a decent eco and a good number of gates anyway. Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later. When 1gate expanding against 1rax fe you also use up all your chrono on probes...only with two nexi instead of one. It's true that 2gate obs is an ok, safe opening that can put you a decent position in some games, against some terran openings, with some followups, but it damn sure doesn't put you even in econ with the terran (1gate/core FE doesn't either but it's less behind). There's a reason why Pros only follow it up with an Immortal bust. It's not better against 111 than 1gate FE either because your expansion doesn't kick in in time for his push, so you end up with a much smaller army than you would have if you had 1gate expanded. The only advantage you get is it's easier to scout, but you can get enough info to play safely and react accordingly off 1gate expand too. It's just slightly harder. Lastly, i'm undefeated on ladder in PvZ with 4gate zealot into DT. Doesn't make it a good standard build. Mid master ladder matches are entirely meaningless to determine wether a build is solid enough to be consistently used in standard play. | ||
oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On December 16 2012 22:44 Teoita wrote: When 1gate expanding against 1rax fe you also use up all your chrono on probes...only with two nexi instead of one. It's true that 2gate obs is an ok, safe opening that can put you a decent position in some games, against some terran openings, with some followups, but it damn sure doesn't put you even in econ with the terran (1gate/core FE doesn't either but it's less behind). There's a reason why Pros only follow it up with an Immortal bust. It's not better against 111 than 1gate FE either because your expansion doesn't kick in in time for his push, so you end up with a much smaller army than you would have if you had 1gate expanded. The only advantage you get is it's easier to scout, but you can get enough info to play safely and react accordingly off 1gate expand too. It's just slightly harder. Lastly, i'm undefeated on ladder in PvZ with 4gate zealot into DT. Doesn't make it a good standard build. Mid master ladder matches are entirely meaningless to determine wether a build is solid enough to be consistently used in standard play. While I agree, it's important to note that Nony wins against GM players. Odds are it has more to do with him just being better overall, but still it's true. | ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 16 2012 21:57 Nyast wrote: Yes, economy is on an equal level vs a 1 rax expo, because you can spend all your chronos into probes and still be 100% safe despite expanding a minute later. No. And you don't expand one minut later but 2' to 2'20 later. 1 rax FE builds Command Center at 3'10 (before second Depot) or 3'30 (after second Depot) while 2gR expand builds Nexus at ~5'30. This is the income graph for 2gR expand (spent nearly all Chronoboosts on Probes): This is the income graph for 1 rax FE before second Depot (ignore the SCV pull at 12'): | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
It's possible to get a forge just as fast against 1rax fe off 1gate FE. Against any other openings the fast Forge isn't useful anyway (in most cases). Why would this build be ahead in army size anyway? You get the first round of gateway units at the same time as off 1gate FE, with one less gate, and you don't even get an immortal. From then on the builds are just standard 2-3gate/robo midgame builds that have very similar amount of production (actually, 1gate fe has more because you usually go into 3 gates). By the time a Medivac timing hits, the bettern econ of 1gate FE will have easily kicked in anyway so the build with the faster nexus and better early game economy should actually have more stuff. Of course, that also depends on the migame followup. | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 17 2012 02:34 Sated wrote: Don't start with the mid Masters stuff when you know it's bullshit. NonY is GM on NA right now and he opens with this 2 Gate Robo Expand -> Forge -> Robotics Bay build in pretty much every PvT game he plays. The only build I've seen him use recently that wasn't a 2 Gate Robo Expand was a Stargate Expand. I wouldn't ever claim that this build is economically even with the Terran opponent because that's clearly not the case, but what this build does do is get ahead in tech, army and upgrades (except against double Engineering Bay builds) for a very long amount of time. Because you have an army advantage for so long, taking a third base is incredibly easy even in the face of dedicated, multi-pronged Medivac aggression, and since you're ahead in army size until 200/200 there aren't really many ways for the Terran to take advantage of their economy advantage. Useful reading on this subject: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300184 You're ahead in tech and army if the terran drops a third. If they scout....at all.... and go double starport with 2 base 5 rax pressure with heavy marauder count...you lose. You won't be ahead in army, econ, or tech if the terran doesn't drop a 3rd, and scouts the no tech (no twilight, just collsai tech) and no third. And how are you ahead in upgrades? You have no TC. You are all in off 2 base, with no TC and 1 forge. How are you ahead in army? If he sniffs 2 base all in, and prepares, terran is still ahead. How are you ahead in tech? It hits when terran is at full tech tree in TvP...and that's starport tech. I think this just relies on greedy terran play, and not scouting and reacting. 2 gate robo works... if you go into an immortal bust. | ||
ian952
Canada124 Posts
On December 17 2012 02:34 Sated wrote: Don't start with the mid Masters stuff when you know it's bullshit. NonY is GM on NA right now and he opens with this 2 Gate Robo Expand -> Forge -> Robotics Bay build in pretty much every PvT game he plays. The only build I've seen him use recently that wasn't a 2 Gate Robo Expand was a Stargate Expand. I wouldn't ever claim that this build is economically even with the Terran opponent because that's clearly not the case, but what this build does do is get ahead in tech, army and upgrades (except against double Engineering Bay builds) for a very long amount of time. Because you have an army advantage for so long, taking a third base is incredibly easy even in the face of dedicated, multi-pronged Medivac aggression, and since you're ahead in army size until 200/200 there aren't really many ways for the Terran to take advantage of their economy advantage. Useful reading on this subject: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300184 Two gate Robo will certainly work, but one gate expand will simply work better. Just like how FFE will work better generally compared to Nony's 2 gate FE (PvZ) | ||
President Dead
97 Posts
What a great Nony quote! I love stomping all over people who try to be creative. Great work! | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 17 2012 06:00 Sated wrote: I guess I worded that badly. In that post I was speaking about what NonY normally does with his 2 Gate Robo Expand, in which he does get a Twilight Council in time for +2 upgrades to be researched, doesn't go up to 8 Gateways, doesn't cut Probes and does take a third base. If you use this build and the opponent goes for a mass Viking strategy off two bases then they are going to put themselves very far behind because it's unlikely they're going to be able to break you, especially once Blink research has finished. This particular version of the build is supposed to be super all-in as it has no intention of taking a third base and doesn't have much chance of transitioning unless you do a lot of damage. The two builds are very different. Sorry for the confusion, I'll re-word that post to make it obvious what I'm talking about. Once there are no collsai...blink stalkers are just delaying their death with blink against bio with medivacs and stim. Marine marauder pack more of a punch than roaches, so blink against it just isn't nearly as effective. Don't get me wrong, it's still a bitch, but bio+ medics handles stalker/collsai well once you clear out the collsai. It was on today on MKP vs MC. MC did a stalker/collsai timing. MKP clears the 3 collsai, and bio shreads stalkers. Albeit, no 1-1 for MC, so it was 1/1 vs 0/0. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On December 17 2012 06:00 Sated wrote: If you use this build and the opponent goes for a mass Viking strategy off two bases then they are going to put themselves very far behind because it's unlikely they're going to be able to break you, especially once Blink research has finished. That's very very incorrect. In fact, the reason why Colossus openings are less popular at the pro level than Templar openings (except for 1colo with no range -> templar) is that they are very susceptible to 2port viking all-ins, often with scv's pulled. I'm not saying that 2base colossus macro is bad per se, just that it's exploitable by the same build you consider weak against it (2port viking timing). | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
If you're going to be conservative and not gamble, you might as well just go all-out and 9 scout. Blind 2gate robo is really stupid. I could care less if it was Tyler doing this to NA GMs or if it was Seed, Rain, and Parting doing it in Code S GSL. An inefficient build is an inefficient build, no matter who is using it. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On December 17 2012 12:09 Sated wrote: I scout on 13 to check for proxy Barracks/Factories/Starports on 2 player maps. Terran players will occasionally go for proxy-based strategies and you usually need to change up your opening if someone like this is happening. On larger maps you only really need to know where your opponent is so that you know where to send the Observer, and for that reason NonY usually scouts after Cybernetics Core when doing this build on larger maps (I think...). In any case, this is already in the guide: "I usually scout pretty early in PvT, but given how safe this opening is and given how quickly you're getting an Observer, you don't really need to Probe scout other than to check for proxy Barracks/Factories/Starports on maps with only 2 spawn locations." Your opening is far from safe. Against standard 1rax FE with all the regular timings, you're pretty far behind and your opponent will always have more stuff than you. In what universe is that considered safe? EDIT: As for the rest of what you've said, I don't think "inefficient" means what you think it means. I know what you're trying to say, though, and all I can say is that I disagree. If you'd like to write up a guide on an alternative version of this type of build then go ahead According to Google: in·ef·fi·cient /ˌiniˈfiSHənt/ Adjective Not achieving maximum productivity; wasting or failing to make the best use of time or resources. Synonyms ineffective - incompetent - incapable - ineffectual Maybe you know of a different definition of inefficient, but I think this one sums up the build pretty darn well. You're using a lot of time and resources to get robo tech out, but against 1rax FE (not even triple orbital) you're behind. Behind because you're wasting time and resources getting observers, so by the time your observer gets across the map, you can find out just how far behind you are. Playing scared =/= playing safe. I like 2gate Robo against gas, but if your opponent doesn't go gas...then what? You hope he plays poorly and doesn't react to your Robo opening? I know that games are still won with build order losses, often on the back of tech, but that doesn't necessarily mean an opening is optimized. Perhaps I will go and write a guide. I know that I like a lot of elements of this build, I just think it could be improved. I play a really reactive style with a broad decision tree, so it will take me some time to do so. Games tend to wind up drastically different when my response to gasless is Nexus first, and my response to gas is 2gate robo (and potentially SG if I suspect factory/starport play). I certainly have a lot of notes already. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 17 2012 12:49 Sated wrote: Here is a picture of an opponent always having more stuff than me: Oh, wait... + Show Spoiler + In what universe should I take you seriously if you're not even capable of reading the entire thread before making stupid comments..? That's just it.... that is one game...against a very bad terran player I bet. A terran should never have less army, or econ, than this build...ever. Unless it comes to a bulldog immortal bust, then that's just imba protoss. Terran is always ahead in army and supply in TvP if played standard....so how, with this low production + late expo are you 'always ahead of a terran'... "I usually scout pretty early in PvT, but given how safe this opening is and given how quickly you're getting an Observer, you don't really need to Probe scout other than to check for proxy Barracks/Factories/Starports on maps with only 2 spawn locations." Always early scout terran. Probes can be so annoying, and delay so much. | ||
ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On December 17 2012 12:49 Sated wrote: Here is a picture of an opponent always having more stuff than me: Oh, wait... + Show Spoiler + In what universe should I take you seriously if you're not even capable of reading the entire thread before making stupid comments..? Wow, that was uncalled for. I read the thread and made some analytical comments, and that makes them stupid? I looked around for which game corresponded to that graph. The one I'm guessing is this one: http://drop.sc/284237 because it seems to be you against that opponent. I could be wrong, though, because you posted that information separately, which makes it difficult to discern. In any case, I'm watching that game again to see what happened. -Everything seems like a normal 1rax FE for the terran up through his scout and expansion timings. -At about 3:40, he drops his expo and has enough money to continue SCV production. He doesn't continue yet, though, until 4:15. It's not like he's microing hard, either--he just simply doesn't build SCVs for 35 seconds, which is like killing 2 of his own SCVs at a crucial time. I watched this part 3 times to check that he wasn't doing something important or powering up/bunkering up with his money, but he actually just didn't build 2 workers. -Then, there's another gap between workers from 4:31 to 4:42. This time, it's more embarassing because he has at least 50 minerals the entire time, and he builds four buildings right by his main OC. He's literally looking at his base and doesn't see that he's missing SCVs, with plenty of money to do so--even though he's down some minerals from missing 2 workers earlier and powering up in basically standard fashion. -From 5:15 to 5:49, he does not build SCVs. The worker count is 27 to 18. He should be down only about 4 or 5 workers at this point, but he's down 9. At this point in time, you still have not started your expansion, and if he has been executing the most basic of macro (queuing up SCVs when he's not microing anything anywhere), he would catch up to your worker count within about a minute and a half or so, and then pass it and also have more production AND units than you. -His second orbital isn't even starting to be an orbital until just before 6 minutes into the game, but it was done at about 5:20. -He seriously misses some marine production, too. I'm not going to elaborate on this, because I think I made my point enough with the details of his failed SCV production. So I think I figured out why you were ahead throughout this game, and I watched only the first 6 minutes of it. ------- For the sake of this thread, I have done the work of looking at it in detail and looked into why it doesn't work. If you still think that I'm stupid, I'm going to have a chat with some mods about your attitude. But I thought it would be a good thing to show what's actually going on, for the sake of random bystanders who check out this thread and assume the information is legitimate. It's not fair to them. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
Also, this is mostly wrong, especially since you don't say anything about what adaptations you have to make against this build. Colossi builds are very susceptible to all-ins with SCV pulls, way more than templar builds. Colossi builds off of a 2 gate robo opening and with double forge + blink are especially especially susceptible. I guess I worded that badly. In that post I was speaking about what NonY normally does with his 2 Gate Robo Expand, in which he does get a Twilight Council in time for +2 upgrades to be researched, doesn't go up to 8 Gateways, doesn't cut Probes and does take a third base. If you use this build and the opponent goes for a mass Viking strategy off two bases then they are going to put themselves very far behind because it's unlikely they're going to be able to break you, especially once Blink research has finished. | ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 17 2012 14:00 Sated wrote: + Show Spoiler + Here is the graph from the other game in the OP. The graphs are closer to one another, but you can still see that the graph is very much in my favour until the point where the opponent's three base production kicks in... Superior army value ≠ having more stuff. 2-bases Colossi all-ins always have more army value because they're mostly composed of Stalkers which cost 87.5 resources per supply compared with Marines and Marauders which cost respectively 50 and 62.5 resources per supply. Only Medivacs and Vikings are more expensive (per supply) than Colossi, Stalkers and Sentries, and they're only a minor part of Terran's supply at the time you're hitting. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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Universum
Canada192 Posts
Anyway, can we cut this crap now? If people have suggestions for how I can improve the guide within the scope of a 2 Gate Robo opening then go ahead, but if people just want to trash on 2 Gate Robo builds then they should instead do something productive and write a guide for a 1 Gate FE Colossus all-in and leave this thread to die... Well the problem with your last statement Sated is that A LOT of people on the internet, no just on this forum, either: 1 - Don't know what the hell they're talking about, but posts anyway. 2 - Bash other's work to feel superior and then feel better about themselves. 3 - Can't read that it's a guide for a build that could help a lot of people even though It's not standard in very high play and that some of us do not feel the urge to become Top tier in the world but sometime just feel like trying something different to HAVE FUN (some people tend to forget that it's the initial goal). 4 - Because they didn't realise 3, they come here to bash a good input in the community for the sake of 1 or 2. That being said, thanks for the guide. It's quite a fun build to use from time to time. Keep up the good work ! EDIT: Added quote of last statement | ||
Kfcnoob
United States296 Posts
I really dont see how this picture is intended to prove anything. You said that u were in diamond, which is a really inefficient league, so we really have no clue what this Terran was doing. U have to show economy stats and graph also. What if he went for 3cc? What if he was floating 1k minerals? Ur random pic w more army value than a random Terran does nothing to prove that this build is powerful vs 1 rax fe standard or even the nony build in comparison to the oft referenced squirtle colossus transition after 1gate nexus. | ||
Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On December 16 2012 22:44 Teoita wrote: When 1gate expanding against 1rax fe you also use up all your chrono on probes...only with two nexi instead of one. It's true that 2gate obs is an ok, safe opening that can put you a decent position in some games, against some terran openings, with some followups, but it damn sure doesn't put you even in econ with the terran (1gate/core FE doesn't either but it's less behind). There's a reason why Pros only follow it up with an Immortal bust. It's not better against 111 than 1gate FE either because your expansion doesn't kick in in time for his push, so you end up with a much smaller army than you would have if you had 1gate expanded. The only advantage you get is it's easier to scout, but you can get enough info to play safely and react accordingly off 1gate expand too. It's just slightly harder. I never claimed that this build has more eco than 1 gate FE. I also never claimed that it's better against 1/1/1 than 1 gate FE. I only claimed that it's a safe build that "puts you in a good position against it". You have a fast robo/obs to scout what your opponent is doing. Yeah, you could also do a 1 gate FE into immediate robo, but then it wouldn't be safe and you'd lose to a ton of other things.. It all comes down to this: yes, in the early game, other builds have stronger points than this one, but they also have bigger weaknesses. And this build provides one of the strongest mid game you could think of. It makes it a lot easier to play against the medivacs/drop timing. As for the eco delay, let's think about it: in a pretty standard safe 1 gate FE you drop your nexus at around 4'20 ( 26 food ). This build drops the nexus at 5'20. That's a minute later, so you have 3.5 probes less. However in a 1 gate FE you have to chrono your warp, while this build has a faster second gate, so you can afford to spend chronos into the nexus. This means that practically you're probably only 2-3 probes behind. Here are some examples of games I played this week end, around masters 800 pts. Yeah, that's not GM level, and their macro wasn't perfect. I don't care, when I play standard in PvT with other builds I generally can't seem to win. With this build I can, I can choose whether I want it to be all-in or macro, and that's all I care. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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cwshang
Malaysia7 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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Voice of Reason
Korea (South)5 Posts
On December 18 2012 04:19 Sated wrote: 111 Marine/Tank/Banshee All-In: Your Observer will scout what they're up to before a Banshee can get to your base, so you should be perfectly safe from Banshee harassment. You'll usually have the following when you scout what is going on: 2 Gateways 2 Nexus (one still building) 1 Robotics Facility 1 Forge The first thing you should do after scouting their strategy is to get an additional Observer for a total of three. This gives you one for each mineral line and one to scout for the Terran leaving their base. The next thing you should do is cut Probes as soon as you have 16 on minerals in the main, 8-10 on minerals in the natural and 6 on gas in the main, which is enough to support the production you will need. You will normally reach this number when the natural Nexus completes (I usually have 10 Probes to transfer when my natural finishes). Next, start +1 Armour as you normally would with this build and also start continually producing Immortals from the Robotics Facility. Once +1 Armour and the first Immortal have started, build 3 additional Gateways for a total of 5. From the Gateways, you want to continually produce Zealot/Sentry from them as affordable, which usually means that you need to cut Gateway production temporarily whilst getting all your additional infrastructure in place. When your Observer sees them moving out, try to meet them in the middle of the field with your Zealots leading the charge, with Guardian Shield up, and with Immortals focusing down Tanks. If you did everything right then you should crush this push, it's not a very good push against openings that scout it way in advance. With such a late Nexus and investing into three Observers, you will die to a well-executed Destiny Cloud Fist build. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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Voice of Reason
Korea (South)5 Posts
On December 18 2012 09:05 Sated wrote: You're wrong, but whatever. I don't feel the need to prove myself to you. Think whatever the fuck you want. I am wrong? And you don't feel the need to prove yourself to me? How convenient in light of the fact that you don't play nowhere near a level at which your Terran opponents execute something well enough to prove anything to anyone. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
We get it, Sated's stubborn as hell, some people don't like this opening. Just let it die already, the last posts have added absolutely nothing to the discussion. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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applepielon
United States78 Posts
On December 18 2012 01:37 Kfcnoob wrote: I really dont see how this picture is intended to prove anything. You said that u were in diamond, which is a really inefficient league, so we really have no clue what this Terran was doing. U have to show economy stats and graph also. What if he went for 3cc? What if he was floating 1k minerals? Ur random pic w more army value than a random Terran does nothing to prove that this build is powerful vs 1 rax fe standard or even the nony build in comparison to the oft referenced squirtle colossus transition after 1gate nexus. Why aren't people who post in guide threads without reading the guide temp banned like people who do so in help threads? Its really obvious this dude has not been paying attention to the OP. On topic: Gave it a try relative to the 1 gate FE, and it holds up just fine at my level, but I still don't feel it gives a huge advantage vs. a relatively 1 gate fe which goes like z/z/sentry/sentry. That seems to be more than enough to hold early aggression. | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
There's so much bullshit Terran can do on one base it's not even funny, so I'll be honest and say that I don't know who invented which 111-based timing over another. I'll assume that the build you're talking about is some sort of Marine/Tank/xxxx build, and if that's the case then I've probably faced it at one time or another. No it's a fake 2 rax into stim cs siege marine medic tank push. It's at your ramp at 9-915 with 2 tanks, 1 otw, 1 medic 1 otw. ~25 marines, 1 marauder, and 8 scvs with stim/cs and siege. Just wondering if you're able to hold.. You'll have an immortal or two, but the low gate count... I think it'd be just too much. And yes, that voice of reason is an obvious troll and asshat. edit -- stupid... I swore I had a rep to show you what I meant. It's a build byun used. Looks like a 2 rax, which would mean you would cancel the OB and get an IMMO and cancel the forge, but it's so marine heavy it's almost like you WANT them to get immortals and gateway units. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 18 2012 09:33 Sated wrote: If you followed this build as written for too long then you'd probably get rolled over, but if you were following the kind of 111 response I stated earlier then I think you should have enough units by the time such an attack hits. Your 5 Gateway production should've already kicked in by that point, but it'd be close. To be honest, it depends how well that build fakes a 2 Rax, because if it's faked well enough then I would've transitioned into this build and I'm not really sure who comes out on top in that situation. I don't think I would have enough production from only 3 Gateways to overpower the Terran if they get a good Siege position, but if I catch the opponent unsieged then I'd probably have a good shot. Is it anything like this build: http://drop.sc/285316 My first engagement is actually horrible in this game because I don't lead with my Zealots and they get stuck behind everything else, only getting into the fight once pretty much everything else is dead. It's pretty pathetic, but I managed to scrape through despite my mistakes... It should've been one-sided in my favour if I'm being honest. EDIT: And Teoita is probably right, these sorts of question are more valid in the thread for a general 2 Gate Robo opening, they're not really relevant in a thread describing a specific all-in follow-up. EDIT2: Having read your description again, that build I've posted doesn't fit the bill. It hits a minute later than the build you've stated. If they'd moved out earlier they might've hit a similar timing, but they waited for more Tanks and that gave me time to get more Zealots... not that they were much use given how badly I controlled. No, he did a 1-1-1. This is a very specific tight build. First game against a terran friend just faking protoss for me just for timing purposes. I hit a few seconds late, 2 few scvs, gas was late but it still hits so early and so hard. http://drop.sc/285328 | ||
President Dead
97 Posts
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President Dead
97 Posts
On December 17 2012 14:00 Sated wrote: By the way, the response I gave was entirely deserved. I'm fairly tired of people repeating over and over that something "doesn't work" despite the fact that it's been shown to work at a very high level. If all I had were replays and VODs from the Bronze league then you might have a point, but that isn't the case. So quit making ridiculous statements, it only undermines any of your more meaningful points and basically makes you look silly... .. It works at a high level, however towards some builds in which people have stated, it doesnt work. Just like any other build. Ive played it and win and lose to BO's. No one build will ever be impervius, that's all we're saying and you seem very defensive for a simple truth. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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President Dead
97 Posts
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