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On July 20 2012 00:23 pigmanbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 00:20 Asmodeusx wrote: This is FFE discussion, it has nothing to do with my guide. My question wasn't even about four-player maps. Shakura's is a three-player map, effectively two-player in tournaments. Just show some (preferrably ladder) replays of you beating an early pool when you set out to do this build on any map, be it two-player, three-player, or four? I think that in this thread you are very resistant to constructive criticism. Your original post doesn't address some major topics (early pools, two-base roach/hydra timing attacks, etc.) and I think that you should consider devoting some space to these things.
On shakuras you can defend 6 pool with reactionary Forge, but this is not a place for this discussion. I wrote clearly that this is NOT a build order guide, and it was a EXAMPLE of a build order. Find the right thread about it if you don't know how to forge expand and help yourself out. A response to the rushes you're mentioning was covered in MANY threads featuring FFE, there is no need for me to repeat it. Just do what you do with regular stargate opening.
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On July 20 2012 00:23 pigmanbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 00:20 Asmodeusx wrote: This is FFE discussion, it has nothing to do with my guide. My question wasn't even about four-player maps. Shakura's is a three-player map, effectively two-player in tournaments. Just show some (preferrably ladder) replays of you beating an early pool when you set out to do this build on any map, be it two-player, three-player, or four? I think that in this thread you are very resistant to constructive criticism. Your original post doesn't address some major topics (early pools, two-base roach/hydra timing attacks, etc.) and I think that you should consider devoting some space to these things.
Why are you criticizing the part of his build that is exactly the same as pretty much all other Protoss builds? What he's saying is there is plenty of discussion on how to deal with stuff like that in other threads just dealing with FFE in general.
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yeah pigmanbear WTF are you talking about.
Nice composition. I like anything that doesn't involve mass sentries or stalkers.
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Very interesting build. I'd like to see how you deal with hydra-based armies though. I suppose Chargelots and Storm make up for the fact that hydras are strong vs. VR's? If that's the case, how would you deal with a Roach/Hydra push that hits before those are out?
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build seems really strong, the replay against the "mass roach" wasnt really the roach max done well, so i'd be interested to see someone with better mechanics do that build against you.
Also, "l2p you are just copying pros" might be some of the best BM i've seen
cool build though, definitely gonna try this out, since storm is so underused in PvZ thanks!
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On July 20 2012 01:12 Salivanth wrote: Very interesting build. I'd like to see how you deal with hydra-based armies though. I suppose Chargelots and Storm make up for the fact that hydras are strong vs. VR's? If that's the case, how would you deal with a Roach/Hydra push that hits before those are out?
Hydras are not that strong vs VR's, it's a missconception popular due to the fact that when you see those units fight it's usually like 2-3 voidrays vs 10 hydras. To defend any push that comes with hydras you need to scout the timing and drone count and decide if you can hold your 3rd. Cut probes and add cannons and use your ~15+ forcefields well. Zealot/sentry/VR with cannons and buildings tanking demage will do just fine. People used to defend those roach hydra pushes after opening 2 stargates with no real effort (KiWiKaKi used to do this alot).
Hydralisk is just not a good unit in general, and you can see it in replay nr 3 i think.
On July 20 2012 01:19 TechnoSchaman wrote: build seems really strong, the replay against the "mass roach" wasnt really the roach max done well, so i'd be interested to see someone with better mechanics do that build against you.
Also, "l2p you are just copying pros" might be some of the best BM i've seen
cool build though, definitely gonna try this out, since storm is so underused in PvZ thanks!
Yea, i agree that roach attack could be bigger and more scary, it got utterly obliterated tho. If he split army better, my other cannons and units at 3rd would come into play, so the outcome would be similar.
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Italy12246 Posts
Sounds fairly similar to what kcdc used to do, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300535.
He does mention having a hard timing against maxed roach/roach hydra, but he also tries to skip as many sentries as possible in favour of faster storm so there's that to consider.
By the way, why go for such a fast mothership? From what little i have heard and seen of this style, once you have a good archon/templar/void ray composition with a few zealots to support there's nothing short of mass broodlords that can kill you, and those don't come out until later in the game.
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On July 20 2012 01:45 Teoita wrote:Sounds fairly similar to what kcdc used to do, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300535. He does mention having a hard timing against maxed roach/roach hydra, but he also tries to skip as many sentries as possible in favour of faster storm so there's that to consider. By the way, why go for such a fast mothership? From what little i have heard and seen of this style, once you have a good archon/templar/void ray composition with a few zealots to support there's nothing short of mass broodlords that can kill you, and those don't come out until later in the game.
This build sounds similar but only because the lack of stalkers. I'm not getting any immortals, and only a couple archons and carriers if any. I also don't do any 2 base preassure and the 3rd is faster. But yea, the concept is similar - don't use wrong units for wrong reasons ^^
Good zerg will rush to hive and getting mothership at this timing is very important. It's true that zerg will not have huge numbers of broodlords yet, but it's important to have as much energy as possible on mothership. It's just very strong and usefull unit and when you're safe to tech to it, it's worth it. You will also have mass recall available roughly at the time your army is ready to move out and reduce the number of bases that zerg is mining from. And you're getting fleet beacon for upgrades regardless.
btw. maxed roach/roach hydra is really bad vs what i'm doing, it's too supply inefficient. The correct answer from zerg seems to be mass infestor/corruptor + alot of spore/spine crawlers but it's damn hard for zerg to afford all that, defend bases from WP harass AND upgrade their corruptors well.
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I made an account just to thank you for putting down this build! Really awesome I don't know what everyone is complaining about.
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On July 20 2012 03:00 FreeHugz wrote: I made an account just to thank you for putting down this build! Really awesome I don't know what everyone is complaining about.
Thank you
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You guys should stop breaking his balls about the specifics..... builds like this have been posted a lot on this forums and have been around the ladder a lot more recently.... I have it in the toolbox as well now... I'm not super convinced on the void rays, and ditto on the necessity of early mothership, but as stated and in general it is a solid build
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It seems like a very good build that needs to be explored.
What's with the trolls in this thread? Don't listen to them, good work.
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United States583 Posts
On July 20 2012 01:26 Asmodeusx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 01:12 Salivanth wrote: Very interesting build. I'd like to see how you deal with hydra-based armies though. I suppose Chargelots and Storm make up for the fact that hydras are strong vs. VR's? If that's the case, how would you deal with a Roach/Hydra push that hits before those are out? Hydras are not that strong vs VR's, it's a missconception popular due to the fact that when you see those units fight it's usually like 2-3 voidrays vs 10 hydras. To defend any push that comes with hydras you need to scout the timing and drone count and decide if you can hold your 3rd. Cut probes and add cannons and use your ~15+ forcefields well. Zealot/sentry/VR with cannons and buildings tanking demage will do just fine. People used to defend those roach hydra pushes after opening 2 stargates with no real effort (KiWiKaKi used to do this alot).
Hydras shoot the same range as Void Rays and do higher DPS than Void Rays. They cost less money per food: A Void is 250/150 per 3 food; one and a half Hydras cost 150/75. Hydras should be focus firing down Void Rays as well, to be cost effective--this isn't as strong for the side of the Void Rays because the Hydras are more plentiful and therefore less susceptible to focus fire. So how, exactly, are Hydras bad against Void Rays?
Hydralisk is just not a good unit in general, and you can see it in replay nr 3 i think.
Hydralisks are susceptable to AoE and a slow-moving unit (off creep), but that doesn't make them bad units. It just makes them situational and timing-based. You're making a really, really bold statement here.
If we're both talking about the same replay, #3 is the one against MRVampire on Ohana, right? He misses injects pretty poorly, supply blocks the hell out of himself, and hits you at 13 minutes with the smallest roach max I have ever seen--which you should have forcefielded way better (2 FFs on the ramp) because there is no excuse not to see that coming when you have voids on the map and he has no antiair with his army. If that was a full-blown roach max, you would be completely screwed--and that was 13 minutes into the game. He screwed up a ton of his macro, even back in the droning period, and your front wall was broken by that half-assed roach hit, still. Imagine if he had done things properly. So much more damage should have happened there, even if he hadn't improved his injects and he had simply not supply blocked himself so badly (check for the point when he builds 7 overlords at once and floats larva for a while...haaaaaaarrrrsshhh).
And then he builds a hydra den after that, and by the time you go hit his third, you both are floating a ton of resources. It's 14:43 into the game, and you have 1535 min/1184 gas/153 supply; the zerg has 2044 min/1141 gas/148 supply. Frankly, I don't give a shit how any engagements go from this point forward.
On July 20 2012 01:19 TechnoSchaman wrote: build seems really strong, the replay against the "mass roach" wasnt really the roach max done well, so i'd be interested to see someone with better mechanics do that build against you.
Also, "l2p you are just copying pros" might be some of the best BM i've seen
cool build though, definitely gonna try this out, since storm is so underused in PvZ thanks!
Yea, i agree that roach attack could be bigger and more scary, it got utterly obliterated tho. If he split army better, my other cannons and units at 3rd would come into play, so the outcome would be similar.[/QUOTE]
If he built a 160 food army and threw it at you at the 13 minute mark, you would have died. Maybe if you used better forcefields at the ramp and better preparation with Voids out to scout and start clocking down Roaches, it would have been a better situation--and I do think it's very hold-able on that map. The problem to me is that you're making a lot of bold claims and your evidence is really shotty. I don't need to see Symbol-level macro or DRG-level macro to be persuaded, but it would help if your opponent didn't get mega supply blocked when you weren't even overloard hunting.
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On July 20 2012 00:23 pigmanbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 00:20 Asmodeusx wrote: This is FFE discussion, it has nothing to do with my guide. My question wasn't even about four-player maps. Shakura's is a three-player map, effectively two-player in tournaments. Just show some (preferrably ladder) replays of you beating an early pool when you set out to do this build on any map, be it two-player, three-player, or four? I think that in this thread you are very resistant to constructive criticism. Your original post doesn't address some major topics (early pools, two-base roach/hydra timing attacks, etc.) and I think that you should consider devoting some space to these things.
? It's not really needed, I don't understand why you are pushing this so much. You adapt your FFE according to what you scout, that's how it works. Obviously you won't go nexus-forge-gateway-cannon if you scout an 11 pool. He shouldn't have to outline every possible FFE variation as it is common knowledge and irrelevant to his build.
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What's with the low quality P guides that just say "make x unit composition, get a mothership, win"?
You need to have like a tldr or something, it takes like 10 minutes to figure out what you are even getting at. You introduce just a standard FFE stargate build but dont really say what you are doing, we have to figure it out with your build order and you saying about how great certain units are when macro and timings are much more important. Like the other mothership/archon thread, how are you going to deal with mass roach at 11:30, or roach/hydra drops, mutas, etc.
Maybe make the guide more refined? I just don't see this guide as the key to changing the PvZ metagame into everyone getting motherships on 2 base. Zerg focuses the third down with ling/roach, and that's it, you can't really win anymore.
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United States583 Posts
On July 20 2012 04:52 Belial88 wrote: What's with the low quality P guides that just say "make x unit composition, get a mothership, win"?
You need to have like a tldr or something, it takes like 10 minutes to figure out what you are even getting at. You introduce just a standard FFE stargate build but dont really say what you are doing, we have to figure it out with your build order and you saying about how great certain units are when macro and timings are much more important. Like the other mothership/archon thread, how are you going to deal with mass roach at 11:30, or roach/hydra drops, mutas, etc.
Maybe make the guide more refined? I just don't see this guide as the key to changing the PvZ metagame into everyone getting motherships on 2 base. Zerg focuses the third down with ling/roach, and that's it, you can't really win anymore.
No kidding.
If we're going to talk about 2base--Mothership-->3rd for PvZ, we should be talking about how to hold the 3rd with a Mothership and how to transition. There are already guides for opening FFE-->Stargate.
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Belial and ineversmile, did you even read it? There is no mention of 2 base mothership and the replays + example build order should be descriptive enaugh
"how are you going to deal with mass roach at 11:30, or roach/hydra drops, mutas, etc."
It's all in the guide/replays.
"Zerg focuses the third down with ling/roach, and that's it, you can't really win anymore."
Lol, that's all i've got to say.
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I've been messing around with similar "air-protoss" ideas but I havent been able to make it work more reliably than immortal sentry expands. The concept strikes me as being superior but Immortals are so much easier to use than Voids in my experience.
There's a moment of weakness when taking your third base, which is pretty much true of any Protoss composition. I don't think Hydras are as big a problem as people think, the real trouble I've had is with heavy infestor plays. I'm going to try your build order out and see if it's superior to what I was using, thanks for posting this Asmodeusx
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I like the void opening, and the entire guide reminds me of this build since both have air openings and transition into HT tech. Difference is this one has less gates and uses sentries and phoenixes as well.
That being said, I don't think you need sentries for defense. You don't need forcefields at all. You can sit pretty on 2 base while damaging Zerg's economy (hence he is not pulling ahead) and just have a wall of buildings (with the door being a cyber core or gateway) with cannons behind. If the Zerg tries to counter in the midgame with lings and/or roaches, cannons will take potshots which gives you time to come home with voids and deal with the mess. You can always rebuild your wall with gates or temporary cybernetics cores (1000 hp and 50 sec build time, recharges hp faster than gateway when built) and then continue your macro.
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