Finally got the time to watch the replays and I love it - will try out soon. Nevertheless I do have a few questions: 1. Would you be so kind to add a replay of you defending 2base muta and 3base muta? 2. I think I read an article by Grubby showing that upgraded VR do in fact less damage vs certain units, because they never get charged. Wouldnt it be stronger to upgrade armor before damage? Same for zealots which mainly work as a meat shield as far as I understand. So what about Shields > Ground/Air Armour > Weapons? 3. I think your build has the same weakness as the "Easy Wins in PVZ build" it is susceptible to drops. How would you deal with a zerg constantly dropping you in various locations? 4. I noticed that you are always low on gas, but do add some amounts in the minerals. Wouldnt your build even be stronger if you used warp prism drops as a mineral dump? 5. Do you get bm'ed a lot with this build?
2. The air attack upgrade is still worth it. They have high attack speed and you're going to be fighting mostly roach/ling in the midgame, so it helps alot. In the late game, by the time voidrays charge up you should already win or lose and engagement, it's just helpfull in skirmishes with low numbers of units.
3. By the time a 3 hatch zerg can research drop you have like 6-8 voidrays and maby 1-2 phenixes. Just scout the overlords and kill them, use chargelot warpins to clean anything he menages to sneak in.
4. It's good, i use mass warp prism harass shortly after i take my 4th, you can start it earlier if you want. Taking my 4th requires usually like 8 cannons and 2 pylons + the nexus and when you constantly add warpgates you can quickly warp 10-15 chargelots to defend an attack (you normally don't want to make those zealots, leaving supply for better units and for harass) so i kinda need the excess minerals.
5. Yupp. Alot ;]
A good strategy with this style is just starving the zerg by denying bases with warp prism and recall. SUPER effective on cloud kingdom ( http://drop.sc/234071 ). My recent PvZ's take about 40 minutes and end with me on 6 bases vs zerg on 4, and when he knows he can't expand again he waits few minutes in silence and then gg's without any engagement. It's beautifull
And to the guy who was saying that it only looks cool but is inefficient... In the replay vs mutas on shakuras at the end of the game you can see a carrier with 39 kills, an archon with 41 kills, another archon with 60 kills and third archon with 66 kills.
+3 shield regen abuse and you're gonna start seeing 10+ kill sentries, packs of voidrays with average of 15 kills each and i'm usually 20k/30k ahead in the resources lost.
Duuuude... this is so similar to stalkerless style (which is really good and I use a lot), and s such it is not new, the only things you do differently is going macro instead of going 3gate SG - zealot void pressure. I think you got some nice ideas, like getting heavy shield upgrades fast to help defense and getting pretty fast MS, but I think you should try to start with the stalkerless opening (or some other form of pressure) cause there is no way in hell you would be able to hold roach / hydra push if you get 3rd base and he doesn't need to make early units.
I do agree with you that the current composition is bad and should be replaced, but the correct way to do it is not pure macro style, since you simply can't do that, you have to do some pressure from time to time, forcing the Zerg to make mistakes and keeping it in its base and in yours.
On August 05 2012 09:34 moskonia wrote: cause there is no way in hell you would be able to hold roach / hydra push if you get 3rd base and he doesn't need to make early units.
That's an interesting opinion, considering i hold those kinds of attacks all the time and i already provided replays for it.
but the correct way to do it is not pure macro style, since you simply can't do that
That's an interesting opinion, considering i do it all the time and i already provided replays for it.
In response to the Atropin question about warp prism - here is a replay where i abuse zerg with warp prisms with this style on cloud kingdom: http://drop.sc/234134
Watching the game on ohana it is clear the Zerg overreacted to abusultly nothing, I want to see a replay where you beat a macro Zerg who doesn't build 4 spores and 20 roaches and simply drones up till he comes with big hydra roach push or hydra ling push.
About the game, he went suicided all of his roached on you natural, instead of going through the 3rd where he can't be blocked so easily. He lost all of his roaches doing near to zero damage, this was not a game of equal play, he simply played bad. The fact that your following push didn't kill him shows how much your build is not game changing. But from there he still stands no chance since he goes mass hydra with no support whatsoever, which just shows he played this for his first time and has no idea how to play against mass air.
I think the only viable way to go mass air is to get early high templars, since without feedback or storm you stand no chance against hydra's or infestors based pushes.
Watching the could kingdom game only supports my argument about the need for HT, since you can only hold your 3rd after making a couple of them. Of course he did make some weird stuff such as 10 early lings and 4 spores in reaction to seeing your air which imo is an overreaction, 1 or maybe 2 would be enough. Also, his making of BL's lategame shows that he too never played vs air style toss, which makes me wonder how this style will fare against someone who actually knows what it is...
This is an interesting build, I will definitely add it to my PvZ arsenal. Another good strategy is the Skytoss+mothership expand. It works rather well against any sort of pressure to deny a 3rd base. All it takes is a sim city of buildings and cannons and void rays. Theres plenty of replays available on a TL thread, I forgot which one. Also, a player by the name of Sidewinder on the blizzard forums refined the build to a more macro/agressive style. Theres a youtube video up for this build.
Take what you will from it. It worked for me on my 2nd try versus a top masters zerg.
On August 05 2012 21:27 moskonia wrote: Watching the game on ohana it is clear the Zerg overreacted to abusultly nothing, I want to see a replay where you beat a macro Zerg who doesn't build 4 spores and 20 roaches and simply drones up till he comes with big hydra roach push or hydra ling push.
About the game, he went suicided all of his roached on you natural, instead of going through the 3rd where he can't be blocked so easily. He lost all of his roaches doing near to zero damage, this was not a game of equal play, he simply played bad. The fact that your following push didn't kill him shows how much your build is not game changing. But from there he still stands no chance since he goes mass hydra with no support whatsoever, which just shows he played this for his first time and has no idea how to play against mass air.
I think the only viable way to go mass air is to get early high templars, since without feedback or storm you stand no chance against hydra's or infestors based pushes.
Watching the could kingdom game only supports my argument about the need for HT, since you can only hold your 3rd after making a couple of them. Of course he did make some weird stuff such as 10 early lings and 4 spores in reaction to seeing your air which imo is an overreaction, 1 or maybe 2 would be enough. Also, his making of BL's lategame shows that he too never played vs air style toss, which makes me wonder how this style will fare against someone who actually knows what it is...
I love how you point out mistakes in my enemy but don't notice any mistakes on my part, which are often equal or greater than the ones the zerg player makes. But thank you for the compliments i guess
Also, i'm afraid you won't see a replay when players builds 1 spore per base when he sees multiple voidrays and goes mad with pure hydra. I played close to 100 games with this style and haven't encountered it yet. Chargelot/sentry/voidray/cannon does well vs hydras, and i know it because people mix them in sometimes and they are suddenly reminded why hydra is not an answer to any protoss unit really, i don't know where people got this idea from.
"I think the only viable way" have you played around with this style, or you just "think"?
Another replay, featuring phoenixes vs infestor/ling, worlds fastest broodlord push and corruptors+hydra/ling later on - http://drop.sc/234391 After seeing infestation pit i scouted spire, so i thought he's going to go mutas after i scouted infestors, so i made phoenixes. They ended up being pretty usefull even vs bl/infestor/corruptor.
This is the direction TL and many streams I've been watching has been trending for a while now. The skytoss discussion gave rise to early mothership and voidray centric play, supported by HT/Archon for a very potent endgame. Faster 3rd vs zerg 3 base/5 base play is an obvious must.
This is a nice synopsis of the emerging standard with some good original content on timings/technique as well.
It is definitely important to remember that this isn't a strict build order, but an overall flow to the matchup. You can gateway expand, 2 stargate pressure, ffe into sentries to take 3rd, etc and always come back to mothership/VR/HT/Archon.
The main two points to beware are Banelings in the early game, and Hydra timing attacks with or without nydus. You CAN beat this with good sentry/mothership control, but it will take some time to get used to.
quillian, that sums it up pretty good. Just the way I think about it too. It's a new trend and definitely something that shows much potential. More potential than taking thirds playing standard as it is now. I always thought using stalkers as a main fighting unit was bad. No wonder pro players mostly resort to two base timing attacks.
Right now, voidray into fast mothership then third, other fast mothership third and Jangbi's fast third base are all looking like the style that might one day replace the current one.
On August 05 2012 09:00 Asmodeusx wrote: 1. http://drop.sc/234072 This replay shows how to deal with mutas.
No it does not. there is not a single muta in the entire game
o.O i was sure i uploaded the right one wtf, anyway, here definitely are mutalisks http://drop.sc/234811
sorry, but that game shows how to deal with 7 mutas popping out after the zerg has taken his 5th base
What I mean is a zerg playing 2base or 3base muta like seriously A zerg who constantly harrasses you with his 24+ mutas
I am playing your style actually, but holding versus a good muta player who just doesnt run his mutas into your storms and stays there is REALLY difficult
On August 05 2012 09:00 Asmodeusx wrote: 1. http://drop.sc/234072 This replay shows how to deal with mutas.
No it does not. there is not a single muta in the entire game
o.O i was sure i uploaded the right one wtf, anyway, here definitely are mutalisks http://drop.sc/234811
sorry, but that game shows how to deal with 7 mutas popping out after the zerg has taken his 5th base
What I mean is a zerg playing 2base or 3base muta like seriously A zerg who constantly harrasses you with his 24+ mutas
I am playing your style actually, but holding versus a good muta player who just doesnt run his mutas into your storms and stays there is REALLY difficult
Watch the replay again, that's not what happened in this game, i don't know what the fuck you're talking about. He made 14 mutas when spire finished and added 8 more when those finished. Check your eyes.
Opening stargate and scouting zerg around the time lair finishes makes it super easy to play vs mutas, i don't see your problem. If they go 3 hatch muta, they will make about 15 mutas instantly and you'll have 7-8 phoenixes to deal with them + cannons and any ground units that you'll warp in. Vs 2 hatch muta you do the same just add 2 more cannons because you will have spare minerals (you're not taking 3rd and you have lower phoenix count). You pretty much want them to go mutas when you open stargate and can scout them...
"A zerg who constantly harrasses you with his 24+ mutas" He can't constantly harass, because once his mutas are on my side of the map they're all dead, because i have phoenixes with range and better upgrades...
I'm back after a break and i'm trying new approaches to the same style. I'm delaying stargate, and getting faster storm, also hallucination for scouting, since i skip the robo and stargate, and i need to see the mutas coming to not die instantly.
+Attack upgraded chargelots, sentries, cannons+simcity and later storm in midgame -> then pumping air units and upgrades.
Here's some more of depressing PvZ: http://drop.sc/265657 (zerg goes standard 3 hatch into infestor and transitions to broodlord while defending with spines and lings, after getting slammed he thinks for a moment - then leaves in sad silence)
Very good another Stargate play vs zerg, I love them. Void ray is definitely the most underrated unit in this matchup, while it works just great. You gain the control of the skies since the early game and get the upgrade advantage making zerg's lategame broodlord+corruptor switch incredibly weak. Looks a lot like the style I use except that I get a very fast mothership.
In your last replay, I'm fairly sure your dead to a stephano max attack (11-12min), despite your o, so, gosu building placement.
Overall I like your concept, I have even done something similar myself a few times way back when... (I went pure stargate, all the money you sink into zlots and WGs, i sunk into cannons and a faster third . Cannons w/ shields are fun XD.
I'm curious to see if there is a way to tighten this so that you dont instantly die to it. I dont think your hallucination would be in time to scout AND then prepare for it, but making allowances for (not_gosu_gm) lvl play it might be okay.
I'm thinking just build 2-3 moar gates for walling, then take a superfast third, mass cannons, get shields and +1 air first, then start pumping voidrays. That's what "I" would do when I go back to playing random, but for now me like
---I like how you put cannons above the ledge to your fourth. Nice --- Funny how zerg just forgot he had about 10 corruptors by his fifth for about half the end game... not that it would have mattered XD
On October 18 2012 05:17 tehemperorer wrote: Can you comment on how you believe HotS will change this build?
Yea, you replace carriers with tempest, get enaugh of them to 1 shot infestors and have fun being actually able to micro unlike with carriers
Also, swarm hosts would probably force faster robo.
In your last replay, I'm fairly sure your dead to a stephano max attack (11-12min), despite your o, so, gosu building placement.
...but he wasn't rushing to 200/200 roach ling, so why should i be able to stop it? I reacted to what i scouted. Nothing really dies to "stephano style", you just have to not fuck up, whatever you're doing to beat it. I don't understand why people keep nagging about it.
I'm curious to see if there is a way to tighten this so that you dont instantly die to it. I dont think your hallucination would be in time to scout AND then prepare for it
Sure it is, just chrono 3-4 times on core and you're fine vs anything
On October 18 2012 22:42 Shikada wrote: Very cool replay Asmodeusx. I like the air transition you did in this one, and the sim city was something to aspire to.
It would be great if you could post some more good games, against different builds and particularly against more aggressive opponents.
There were a lot of people asking about ~12 min roach max attack, so here you go: http://drop.sc/265846
I've had plenty of warpins, forcefields and zealots to deal with him if he tried to suicide dive in, but storms and cannons with sim city proved to be enaugh anyway. Later he didn't spread his corruptors and infested terrans, but even if he did i've had big air upgrade advantage and i could flood his bases with zealots and recal harass.