[G] PvZ revamped, by Asmodeus - Page 5
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Forsy
Canada36 Posts
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
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Jintoss
Hong Kong117 Posts
I'm just another diamond scrub, but I've been trying some things out, and here are my thoughts: 1)Double gas after expo for sentries, but staggered 3rd and 4th gasses - when the first 2 void rays come out, you are mineral starved, expanding and adding extra gates/pylons. 2) Pushing out with the first 3 VR in different directions, one clockwise around the map, one counter, and one through the middle watch towers - to kill overlords/lings and spot proxy spire. Rally the rest to front. 3) You don't need to scout for third at 4:30-5:00 anymore, as the VR+sentries will keep you safe vs a zerg who stays 2 base longer/all-ins (see note at end). Double zealot poke at third will suffice. 4) Earlier robo for obs (after 4th base, before 2nd and 3rd SGs - I like to add on extra gates after TC, but before 4th) -> creep management with voids, only one. Allows you to get a Warp Prism if zerg gets hyper aggressive etc. Basically gives you options, and since you will be expanding a lot, you will have a high gateway count later. 5) earlier FB for Air+2 - typically your next tech building after TA 6) you can fit Hallucinate in between WG research and Air+1, skip the early phoenix. However you will delay other things slightly (2nd, 3rd gates, 3rd&4th gases) unless there exists a clever optimization. 7)Archons are now ridiculously good vs mutas, lings and whatever. RIDICULOUSLY. ofc still favor HT at first :D 8) after you get into the late game, and probably destroyed a few zerg armies, you can add RoboSB for WP speed and DS, then stalker/DT/storm/zealot abuse the zerg. And if he chases you with his mutas/corrupters, well now you know you can push with your VR/HT powered army This style really allows you to get the most of your apm/multitasking and pushes you to the limit, especially if you have fast4th, BS, HT, ZealotStalker and a pack of Phoenixes to look after, all while CB your upgrades. Awesome. Here is an example game vs very aggressive muta-ling. You can still expand! Just balance your zealot/cannon and stalker/HT around your bases. You can go phoenixes briefly, or stay with VR to build up for the inevitable GGLord or ground switch I don't know which is better yet, possibly map/opponent dependent. http://drop.sc/272044 Probably would have been better with a mothership after 4th, but I forgot - it was a pretty tense game :p Also try and hold your 4th in favor of overreacting to muta harass, if it stays alive you can rebuild probes verrrrry quickly with CB. My favorite thing about this style is NO COLOSSUS. You are free to split your units with HT and hold/harass. Basically this style makes you feel like liquidHerO!!! Without getting rolled by roaches. Feel like there is a lot of room for optimization, and very excited for it! N.B. I haven't played anyone who goes 2 base muta yet. could cause problems if you rally out your VRs, and you will only have 3 gates and mostly zealot/sentry but you will be on 3 bases, so...=/ | ||
MrBarryObama
Korea (South)141 Posts
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Melaine
United States56 Posts
drg did a nice chesse off 3 bases, 3rd base was only used for larva, hit @ 5:30 with tons of roaches, protoss had nothing with a stargate opener and was instant gg'd So this build is a nice style if the zerg lacks scouts and map awareness, plenty of ways for the zerg to abuse protoss early game and mid game with stargate openers, which is why you hardly ever seen them in Pro matches, it's just not as viable as your skill increases and you get into high lvl GM and above. Might be decent in the lower bracket/leagues. But Even carriers don't deal with a upgraded infestor/bl/corupter comp For example Idra encountered several protoss using this exact build on him today while streaming, None of them came close to killing Idra with it, and they were excuted by GM lvl players (GM season has not started yet so they were all top 5 master) This style does force insane long 45 min games tho. Recent Interview with David Kim said they are improving StareGate play in HOTS vs zerg, but for now Stargate is just not as viable in high lvl of play as the immortal or blink stalker all ins or the immortal opener that nets you a 9 min safe 3rd base vs zerg, The best end game comp is still the Gimicky Soild toss death ball with mothership, and mabey a tech switch to mass carrier late in the game. Not sure if you remeber few seasons ago in GSTL where freaky won vs mass carrier with just pure infestors. | ||
Jintoss
Hong Kong117 Posts
On November 07 2012 13:49 Melaine wrote:So this build is a nice style if the zerg lacks scouts and map awareness, plenty of ways for the zerg to abuse protoss early game and mid game with stargate openers, which is why you hardly ever seen them in Pro matches Lolwut? I'll be polite and remember that ohana, daybreak and abyssal city (which IMSeed just has just shown us) are unusually good for immortal sentry all-ins. So you are half right, 50% of the time. drg did a nice chesse off 3 bases, 3rd base was only used for larva, hit @ 5:30 with tons of roaches, protoss had nothing with a stargate opener and was instant gg'd Any toss who FFE instead of Gate-Expanded will have nothing at 5:30. For roaches to hit at 5:30, you'd need to throw down the warren before the third at around 3:45, even before the queen is out - which is easily scouted by the probe. Assuming a short 15s rush distance. So DRG all-in-ing vs. a predictably greedy and careless protoss hardly qualifies as 'so many options for zerg abuse that any FFE into tech opener is nonviable.' But really, any FFE Protoss will have nothing against what you describe unless they went 3 or 4 gate immediately after expanding, threw down 3 cannons and crono'd the living bejesus out of WG. Then they might just save their natural against what you described, sans probes lost and minerals lost due to pulling and cancelling. For reference, 2nd and 3rd gates finish at 6:30 having cut probes briefly and VR comes out at 7:30-8:00 depending on a bunch of stuff. Might be decent in the lower bracket/leagues. But Even carriers don't deal with a upgraded infestor/bl/corupter comp For example Idra encountered several protoss using this exact build... blahhh blahh blah The main thrust is from upgraded VRs/early storm. Zealots are a mineral dump, fast max, shield the HTs, and force zerg to maintain a ground force to defend infestors - useless after VRs are what is left standing. I know because I have fought infestor/bl/corrupter with this style and am not just theory crafting from year old GSL matches and IdrA's stream. After taking my 4th, I have stupidly walked my army clumped up, straight into fungals, been puked all over with corruption - and yet - VR+Storm is enough to kill the corrupters, and mass zealots with +2 shield and a guardian shield survive long enough vs lings and infested terrans that my VRs are left alive to clear up the mess. And this is also without the early mothership (16:20ish from Asmodeus) which I keep forgetting (not needing tbh ^^"). Oh and, only 2 carriers are added late, to 'force the zerg to engage at a longer range' or something. Read the OP. You make it sound like this is the FAST 2 BASE CARRIER MAX STYLE or some shit. Not sure if you remeber few seasons ago in GSTL where freaky won vs mass carrier with just pure infestors. Again missing the point my obviously Zerg buddy! | ||
HellRush
Canada68 Posts
I just wanted to had that a robo needs to be included in this build way earlier, if nothing else make it and produce only observers with it if your not planning to use it for anything else, it's not a insane investement and will help you scout\react better to those timing attacks the zerg can try to bust your 3rd with. Maybe it'S only a personnal preference but i would go for a robo before expanding insteand of making more and more voids, they are pretty bad in alot of situation(mass roach and quick 4th), and from experience it'S better to trow down a robo earlier, not when you spot a hydra dent with your first few phx for exemple, because at that point it'S too late :/ So basicly yes i think maybe the lategame composition is considerable but you really need to open something like, FFE-stargate-robo-2xgates-then nexus and this is nothing new people (pro players) have been doing this for a long time. The probleme with those kind of openings is that if the zerg identify that you are investing in a early nexus AND stargate tech he can safely take a 4th very early by only making 2-3 extra queen a a few spores and then tech straight up to infestors and that is never a good thing for toss ... has i am sure most of you have had the pleasure of experimenting yourself ^_^ | ||
MrBarryObama
Korea (South)141 Posts
On November 08 2012 22:35 HellRush wrote: i like the idea ... ive been thinking voidray templar would be a good way to go for a while now but i haven't found anyone actually use them at a high level of play. 1. because voidray have a tendancy to clump up meaning that fungal will do the maximum amount of damage it can do 2. infested terran and corruptos will deal with your voids very quickly not so sure protoss comes out ahead with a archon voidray/templar/ball. Assuming the zerg is smart and scouts the fact that he needs those corruptors and doesn'T morph them all into broodlord blindly -_-' I just wanted to had that a robo needs to be included in this build way earlier, if nothing else make it and produce only observers with it if your not planning to use it for anything else, it's not a insane investement and will help you scout\react better to those timing attacks the zerg can try to bust your 3rd with. Maybe it'S only a personnal preference but i would go for a robo before expanding insteand of making more and more voids, they are pretty bad in alot of situation(mass roach and quick 4th), and from experience it'S better to trow down a robo earlier, not when you spot a hydra dent with your first few phx for exemple, because at that point it'S too late :/ So basicly yes i think maybe the lategame composition is considerable but you really need to open something like, FFE-stargate-robo-2xgates-then nexus and this is nothing new people (pro players) have been doing this for a long time. The probleme with those kind of openings is that if the zerg identify that you are investing in a early nexus AND stargate tech he can safely take a 4th very early by only making 2-3 extra queen a a few spores and then tech straight up to infestors and that is never a good thing for toss ... has i am sure most of you have had the pleasure of experimenting yourself ^_^ You can delay the robo/obs because phoenix are great for scouting. For scouting tech and bases, phoenix are better than obs. Roach all-ins are the most dangerous. HT deal with Corruptors and Infestors very well, especially once you have a few archons in your army. Actually, the whole point of this composition is that Voids force Corruptors, Infestors, and Hydras, all of which are easily destroyed by HT. | ||
HellRush
Canada68 Posts
You can delay the robo/obs because phoenix are great for scouting. For scouting tech and bases, phoenix are better than obs. Roach all-ins are the most dangerous. HT deal with Corruptors and Infestors very well, especially once you have a few archons in your army. Actually, the whole point of this composition is that Voids force Corruptors, Infestors, and Hydras, all of which are easily destroyed by HT. Exacly my point, i dont deny the fact that you will use your phx to scout, but you need a robo to hold effectively those mass roach play and or hydra push(not to scout but to pump out unit out of it IF you need to) you can than use it later to pump out a few obs just to deny creep and keep a good map control, and also you can use your 1st void + obs to deny creep from zerg early game wich is always a good thing. | ||
Jintoss
Hong Kong117 Posts
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
On November 09 2012 09:17 Jintoss wrote: If you don't dilute your VRs you will find you don't need immortals. Even against a hydra-ling push(in which case immortals are a liability and colossus is a bit slow, but moreover, colossus locks you into robo-till death play which is what we are trying to avoid). Give it a go. I don't think their is an issue when vsing Hydra simply because you have force fields. But a pure roach comp has always giving me trouble with this opening/composition. It feels like I have to get the immortals out early for any hopes of surviving else they will just suicide drill. | ||
kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Also, it's really hard to make voids work against infestors and corruptors in late game. Voids are too vulnerable to fungal growth and infested terrans to win games at a high rate. You'd be better off with carriers. | ||
Asmodeusx
286 Posts
On November 07 2012 13:49 Melaine wrote: You have to hide the stargates super well early game, Seen Korean pro zergs deal with this style with a roach all in, drg did a nice chesse off 3 bases, 3rd base was only used for larva, hit @ 5:30 with tons of roaches, protoss had nothing with a stargate opener and was instant gg'd I don't think you play the same game. In what world, zerg can get 3 bases and hit 5:30 roach timing IN REACTION to scouted stargate. (hint: not in this one) On November 09 2012 12:24 kcdc wrote: I used to use the void ray + templar composition a lot, but I eventually found that it can't defend a roach + queen push. Against queens, the voids and storms do nothing. You can feedback the transfuse energy down, but in my experience, you just die. Your tech spending is so high and your economy is so much lower than Zerg's that you just can't hold. More cannons, better sim city, better micro on voidrays to not lose any to queens and better FF's. With replay i could help better but generally, you want to fight as long as cannons and wall let you, then sac 3rd and defend with more cannons at your natural, you don't need to save 3rd vs all in, so feel free to lose it after letting it tank demage for you, and you're not really behind after that - trust me i lost 3rd tons of times when trying to figure it out, and almost every time it turned out that i was not behind at all and won the game. Also, you should have good vision of the map with phoenix or hallucinate, depends which way you build, and scout the all in coming by watching zerg gas and no tech, you can then cancel all upgrades that wont finish and all tech buildings that wont pay off in time and add more cannons + sentries. On November 09 2012 12:24 kcdc wrote: Also, it's really hard to make voids work against infestors and corruptors in late game. Voids are too vulnerable to fungal growth and infested terrans to win games at a high rate. You'd be better off with carriers. Late game it's actually the easiest and most fun thing once you get used to controlling completly diffirent army. There is plenty of replays where i beat just that. People who make nothing but Corruptors and infestors that nuke with infested terrans. It's all about micro. Recall from fungal when you are about to lose shields - you should not move out with entire army if you don't have a mothership parked above cannons with recall ready. You have higher burst demage and better regen on shields, that's why you will come out on top in every exchange like that. Guardian shield + storm on infested terrans/corruptors. If you're at 170+ supply, you should win every time. Show me a replay where you have recall ready, you guardian shield your army and storm everything while still losing your ~15 VR's and ~4 carriers, along with the ~10 templars that can be morphed into archons right after storming... Carriers die too fast because zerg is able to focus them, they're very supply inefficient compared to VR's, you should only have a few for zoning. They're just as much vunerable to fungal as any other unit - clumping voidrays is a skill issue, not unit issue. As for fighting IT's and corruptors, VR's are just better units. You can win games with carriers if zerg doesn't scout where did you invest a billion resources, but that's about the only case from my exparience and from what i've seen in pro games when toss tried to do that. On November 07 2012 13:49 Melaine wrote: Might be decent in the lower bracket/leagues. But Even carriers don't deal with a upgraded infestor/bl/corupter comp For example Idra encountered several protoss using this exact build on him today while streaming, None of them came close to killing Idra with it, and they were excuted by GM lvl players (GM season has not started yet so they were all top 5 master) [..] Not sure if you remeber few seasons ago in GSTL where freaky won vs mass carrier with just pure infestors. Top 5 masters didn't beat IdrA = build doesn't work? And no wonder, because mass carrier is wrong way to play, read the guide before posting a comment on it. | ||
Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
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MidnightZL
Sweden203 Posts
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Asmodeusx
286 Posts
On November 10 2012 03:55 MidnightZL wrote: Just a question, under Adapting the build 3.3 you have a line thru the text "and delay any other upgrades to get storm faster" do you mean this shouldnt be there anymore or you ment to underline it? It's intentionally crossed out, and there is and explaination right under this response. You don't need to rush storm if you scout early enaugh, because of how strong phoenixes are | ||
SCAReaSoN
United States7 Posts
If anyone has any clue to how you could hold this push please tell me! Other than that i think this is a AMAZING style and i think it will grow in popularity. | ||
Asmodeusx
286 Posts
On November 10 2012 05:41 SCAReaSoN wrote: I have been messing with this style for a while and I cant seem to find a way to hold a infestor ling push before storm is out simply because of no aoe to kill the infested tarrens. While lifting the infestors is a good idea you cant possible have enough nix to lift enough of them to nullify the infested tarren count. If anyone has any clue to how you could hold this push please tell me! Other than that i think this is a AMAZING style and i think it will grow in popularity. When you scout infestors moving out on the map and no roaches build full walloff, and once it dies FF the gaps. The way you hold it, is by killing patiently infested terrans, saying out of fungal range with sentries and keeping all the lings out of the battle with wall/FF's untill you deal with Infested terrans. Guardian shield once the first IT's pop out of eggs. Also, make sure that you have added enaugh gateways. The way i play this style - regardless of going air or storm first - is making sure that i add more gateways then i need, and in case of attack i always have the money to warp a round of 6-8 zealots before the fight, and another round during it. Even tho, you aren't making many gateway units, keep adding gateways. If it's an all in you should also scout it in time to complete adding more cannons, as with any other all in | ||
ProfessionalNoob
United States75 Posts
I used to do something somewhat similar back in gold league where I essentially open phoenix, get a 3rd very early while pressuring, then tech up to collosus while pumping out void rays (adding one more stargate and FB after the third). The difference in this obviously is that we avoid collosus and go HT, which now that I think about it, makes more sense. I just always thought "well, phoenix/void pressure will force hydras, and collosus destroy hydras". But the problem with that strat is that it always left a point of vulnerability before I could get collosus with range out, in that 2 or 3 minutes, if they attack with a bunch of hydras I kind of just die....since voids are awful against hydras. Hopefully this is a bit more stable | ||
TheLunatic
309 Posts
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