Hello, i'm Asmodeus - Master Protoss player. This is a guide to new style of protoss, crafted to deal with current standard zerg strategies.
I wrote this guide, because it's sad to watch protoss players struggle so much in this matchup, and lose every time when zerg player doesn't make significant mistakes. It's all due to using very outdated style of of play. I won't elaborate too much on it, if you want to know why i think that current protoss builds are very weak PM me and i might write about it. Right now tho, i want to offer an alternative for everyone. A solution to combat two the most prevalent zerg styles - 200/200 roach rush and fast hive.
This is not a specific build order guide, but rather a highlight and description of diffirent style that will allow you to fight any zerg army heads on, without praying for huge vortex.
Keep in mind, this is NOT a refined build. Give this idea to a top protoss player, and he'll execute it much faster.
9 Pylon 17 Nexus 17 Forge 17 Gateway 17 Pylon 18 Photon Cannon 19 Assimilator 21 Cybernetics Core 23 Second Assimilator (* This is around 4:30, you should be scouting 3rd hatch with your probe soon) 27 Warpgate Research 30 Pylon 34 Stargate 34 Pylon 35 2x Assimilator 36 Sentry 44 2x Gateway 44 Phenix 47 Sentry 50 Pylon 51 Void Ray 56 Shields Level 1 57 Pylon (* This is around 7:40, you should be scouting zerg tech with your phenix now) 60 Void ray 63 3x sentry warp-in 63 Nexus (* Up to this point all your chrono should be on Nexi, now you can chrono upgrades and units)
~9:00 you want to wall off your 3rd and natural to leave just 1 entrance. Fortify it with cannons.
- Keep making Voidrays and add 4-5 more gateways
~ 9:30 Put down twilight council and second stargate
~10:00 Start Air Weapons Level 1
- Take both assimilators at your 3rd when the nexus is about to finish
~10:45 Start Shields Level 2
~11:00 Put down Templar Archives and start warping in zealots.
- You should have more than 60 probes across 3 bases. Keep making them untill about 75.
~11:45 Start Charge or Storm depending on what will you need earlier. Once you can afford it, start the other upgrade.
~12:45 Start Fleet Beacon
~13:00 Warp in some High Templars if you haven't done it already
~13:30 Put down a robo and start Shields Level 3. Keep warping in zealots
- Add about 8 Warpgates, you need alot of them, because all you're gonna warp-in is zealots, sentries and HT's.
~14:00 Start Mothership and Air Weapons Level 2 shortly after
~14:30 Get an observer, warp prism and move out to take your 4th.
Obviously, not every zerg will let you sit there in peace and build up your doom army. It is very easy tho, to respond with this build, to anything that your enemy might do.
1. Defending 1 and 2 base rushes comes down to scouting it, there are many sources that will help you with holding those kinds of attacks after FFE.
2. 2 Hatch muta - you will unfortunetely need to warp some stalkers and skip any voidrays in favour of phoenixes.
3. 3 Hatch muta - easy to scout, make phoenixes off 2 stargates and delay any other upgrades to get storm faster.* All it comes down to is just making phoenixes instead of voidrays for some time.
* After facing enaugh 3 hatch mutas i noticed that you don't need the storm (fast) if you scout that he's going mutas, in time, and just chronoboost 2x phoenixes constantly.
4. Hydra pushes - Shield upgraded walls with cannons should buy you time to get out storm, otherwise, zealot/sentry/voidray with guardian shield and good FF's should deal with it just fine.
5. Ultralisk/baneling style - Your units should stomp that to the ground. You should have no problem with either late game zerg composition.
* Shields Upgrade - This upgrade is essential. Since you will be using both - ground and air units it's better to upgrade shields than both armor upgrades first. It also makes archons much better at tanking demage since one upgrade covers pretty much entire health of a unit, unlike any other in protoss arsenal. It will also strengthen your building walls and cannons (incredibly helpfull vs zerglings). Not to mention, that shields regenerate, so you can take advantage of the upgrade even more.
* Zealots - Their role in your composition is mostly protecting your casters. They are also much better suited for direct combat with ground units than stalkers (stalkers are in fact horrible at it). Charge upgrade doubles their effectiveness and allows for much more favorable engagements in many ways that you won't even realize. Get it.
* Sentries - You need them in early-mid game to control space and defend untill your army grows large enaugh to deal with high numbers of zerg units. Later on, you should always have 2+ sentries to cast guardian shield (It affects both - ground and air units.)
* High Templars - Mostly for Psionic Storm, which deals 20 DPS to each unit on the ground and in air simultaneously, by far the best means of fighting high numbers of corruptors (or high numbers of anything for that matter). HT's can deal with anything that zerg player will make as a response to your air force, be it corruptors, infestors, infested terrans, or hydras.
* Void Rays - The core of your army. Multipurpose fighting unit - especially good at countering zerg T3 units. It's more expensive than a stalker, but more efficient, which is very much desirable in 200/200 army. It's also slower, but makes up for it with it's ability to... fly. Spread them out well when facing infestors, and roll over everything else.
* Mothership - It's badass. Even more badass with alot of energy so get it out early, preferably soon afer you establish your 3rd base.
* Archons - With +3 shield upgrades they're more powerfull than ever before. Focus fire clumps of corruptors when you can and keep them behind zealots, so they can stay alive untill you use vortex.
* Carriers - Normally you won't need them, but if your enemy happens to be an incredibly smart and talented player, you can gain an edge over him by getting 2-3 carriers and forcing engagements by abusing better range. On the flipside, if your enemy happens to be incredibly stupid, or for some unknown reason he can not find the hotkey for spawning corruptors, you can make more of them.
Watching the replays, you'll notice that i'm using every single control group and i wish there was even more of them. You're using very different types of units: melee, ranged, ground, casters, flying and flying casters. You should have your sentries, high templars and mothership in 3 separate control groups. It's crucial to be able to access every spell instantly and pull back your templars or mothership. A few key notes for engaging:
1. Spread your units vs infestors - kinda obvious 2. Charge your zealots at infestors - incredibly strong tactic. He won't be able to fungal all zealots when they spread out and it will prevent him from chain fungaling your void rays 3. Protect your mothership, don't leave it far behind the army when moving 4. Learn to be precise with your GS and Storm. Don't waste them, but always use them when available.
Note that in all of those games my build is very unrefined. Those are just examples of the general style. All games played in Masters EU, so either my enemies and me could have done many things better.
Final words:
Before jumping into conclusions, take note that every time you try something new, it will suck compared to what you're used to. You need to play with this build in order to judge it's viability. From my experience, it has huge potential (i didn't preassure or harass with stargate at all and i didn't abuse warp prisms or mass recals) and it's closer to the "correct" way of playing PvZ than what we're seeing in current trends. It allows you to play a macro game with zerg, without a time-bomb counting your minutes untill "unstoppable" broodlord/infestor/spinecrawler army rolls over you. You can actually fight against it.
If there is one thing i would like people to learn after reading this guide it's - Stalkers have garbage combat stats and making them purely for fighting is like massing mutalisks for defence.
http://drop.sc/234148 Hungry drone, angry drone? Replay showing why you should ♥ cloud kingdom http://drop.sc/234664 and another one after an early lead from defending 2 base roach
It's really nice to see some new stuff about PvZ, which has become really boring nowadays, thx alot ! But btw, on your build order example, it seems that you skipped the early nexus, is it a mistake ? I find that doing a forge opening with a 63 nexus is a bit weird :/
On July 19 2012 22:50 Sakray wrote: It's really nice to see some new stuff about PvZ, which has become really boring nowadays, thx alot ! But btw, on your build order example, it seems that you skipped the early nexus, is it a mistake ? I find that doing a forge opening with a 63 nexus is a bit weird :/
Nice to see some new ideas. Any chance this was based off the air-protoss discussion in TL? Anyway, I honestly hate the current immortal/sentry mix, so it's nice to see some new ideas revolving around the stargate.
...I still love stalkers though. If void rays could blink, they'd be much better :p.
On July 19 2012 23:09 Nawe wrote: This is autoloss against hydra attacks at any kind
And this is grammatically incorrect, bold statement, without any evidence or even arguments.
Show me a hydra build that will win the game vs this style, or at least provide some numbers of units and timings (based on a replay). Without it, discussion is pointless.
On July 19 2012 23:09 Nawe wrote: This is autoloss against hydra attacks at any kind
This is addressed in the guide, but i'm sure you practiced it a couple times in real games and lost to hydralisk attacks, cuz you wouldnt just BLINDLY assume something is bad without any evidence right? people on the internet wouldn't do that, right?
Some seasons back i was playing around with something like this. The FF with Voids comp. is decent vs Hydra's and later with Storm or Mothership it absolutely melts them. It's really strong on Shakuras, but i stopped using this, when Infestor fungal was buffed.
I'm not sure you can beat Infestors with Sentry Voids + the obvious zealots. You will have to stay back mega defensive until you have ht's vs the infestors.
Shield upgrades are strong on Archons, but suck on Zealots. Think you're definitely overestimating Shield upgrade, pass level one.
Edited: Also the base 2 armour of the Mothership doesn't count for the shield, so it wouldn't have 7 armour.
You talk about the metagame, but early pools are very much a part of ZvP right now, and going Nexus, Gateway before Cannon dies to pretty much any early pool build. Do you have any replays of executing this build against an 11-pool (with the Zerg attacking) or earlier? I ask because 11 pool 18 hatch isn't even cheesy and I can see it doing serious damage to this build.
On July 19 2012 23:34 ejozl wrote: Some seasons back i was playing around with something like this. The FF with Voids comp. is decent vs Hydra's and later with Storm or Mothership it absolutely melts them. It's really strong on Shakuras, but i stopped using this, when Infestor fungal was buffed.
I'm not sure you can beat Infestors with Sentry Voids + the obvious zealots. You will have to stay back mega defensive until you have ht's vs the infestors.
Shield upgrades are strong on Archons, but suck on Zealots. Think you're definitely overestimating Shield upgrade, pass level one.
Edited: Also the base 2 armour of the Mothership doesn't count for the shield, so it wouldn't have 7 armour.
That's why i'm getting HT's roughly at the time when zerg makes infestors or even faster if he was roaching. And shield upgrades is just the most efficient and the one that will pay for itself the most. Abusing shield regeneration is a huge part of this style.
Yea, you're right about the Mothership armour.
On July 19 2012 23:44 pigmanbear wrote: You talk about the metagame, but early pools are very much a part of ZvP right now, and going Nexus, Gateway before Cannon dies to pretty much any early pool build. Do you have any replays of executing this build against an 11-pool (with the Zerg attacking) or earlier? I ask because 11 pool 18 hatch isn't even cheesy and I can see it doing serious damage to this build.
That's why you scout? Just build a forge before Nexus.
On July 19 2012 23:46 Asmodeusx wrote: That's why you scout? Just build a forge before Nexus.
That wasn't what I was asking about though ... do you have any replays of you scouting and successfully defending early Zergling aggression? I'd be especially interested in ones where you don't scout the Zerg first.
On July 19 2012 23:46 Asmodeusx wrote: That's why you scout? Just build a forge before Nexus.
That wasn't what I was asking about though ... do you have any replays of you scouting and successfully defending early Zergling aggression? I'd be especially interested in ones where you don't scout the Zerg first.
You don't go Nexus first on 4 player maps. That's a common knowledge. It's just an example of a build on 2 player map.
On July 19 2012 23:09 Nawe wrote: This is autoloss against hydra attacks at any kind
And this is grammatically incorrect, bold statement, without any evidence or even arguments.
Show me a hydra build that will win the game vs this style, or at least provide some numbers f units and timings (based on a replay). Without it, discussion is pointless.
Its so easy to assume that hydras rapes every protoss unir besides collosus and zealot(with charge and ff support). So any 2 base hydra nydus or roach/hydra with ol spreading creep would crush this greedy build. Beside that unit composition is uterrly retarded till archons. But nevermind. Regarding replays, its like I am telling you to post mw reps where 12 lings got owned by 8 zealots. Sry for grammar i m not ffom Usa or England, and I dont care for it aswell
On July 19 2012 23:09 Nawe wrote: This is autoloss against hydra attacks at any kind
And this is grammatically incorrect, bold statement, without any evidence or even arguments.
Show me a hydra build that will win the game vs this style, or at least provide some numbers f units and timings (based on a replay). Without it, discussion is pointless.
Its so easy to assume that hydras rapes every protoss unir besides collosus and zealot(with charge and ff support). So any 2 base hydra nydus or roach/hydra with ol spreading creep would crush this greedy build. Beside that unit composition is uterrly retarded till archons. But nevermind. Regarding replays, its like I am telling you to post mw reps where 12 lings got owned by 8 zealots. Sry for grammar i m not ffom Usa or England, and I dont care for it aswell
Easy to assume, hard to prove i see. Don't bother replying like this, without any evidence or examples.
On July 20 2012 00:12 Nawe wrote: What is your evidence? That you said every counter is cvered? Thats wrong cocky attitude man
It's not some kind of gimmick, that can be "countered". There are builds good and bad vs it, but it's not an "autoloss" as you claim vs anything i've ever encountered. You don't have to agree, but don't expect anyone to belive you if you don't have ANY experience with the style, and you're talking just in general terms without any evidence.
On July 19 2012 23:52 Asmodeusx wrote: You don't go Nexus first on 4 player maps. That's a common knowledge. It's just an example of a build on 2 player map.
Also it is not common knowledge, and I see many professional players go nexus first on Antiga and other four-player maps.
On July 19 2012 23:52 Asmodeusx wrote: You don't go Nexus first on 4 player maps. That's a common knowledge. It's just an example of a build on 2 player map.
Maybe you should put this in your guide? I think it is a pretty important caveat, especially when you describe your build as somehow reimagining or redefining the matchup. Also it is not common knowledge, and I see many professional players go nexus first on Antiga and other four-player maps.
This is FFE discussion, it has nothing to do with my guide.
It might sound harsh. Ok I shouldnt say autoloss, but your builds flaw is weakness to hydras. I mean key is defend them if zerg decide to do it. I really liked it tho because its kinda new and unusual, its always good to explore new stuff, but i fhink its weak till u get archons. Also its similar to what Sage did in gsl vs some zerg on taldarim
On July 20 2012 00:20 Asmodeusx wrote: This is FFE discussion, it has nothing to do with my guide.
My question wasn't even about four-player maps. Shakura's is a three-player map, effectively two-player in tournaments. Just show some (preferrably ladder) replays of you beating an early pool when you set out to do this build on any map, be it two-player, three-player, or four? I think that in this thread you are very resistant to constructive criticism. Your original post doesn't address some major topics (early pools, two-base roach/hydra timing attacks, etc.) and I think that you should consider devoting some space to these things.
On July 20 2012 00:20 Asmodeusx wrote: This is FFE discussion, it has nothing to do with my guide.
My question wasn't even about four-player maps. Shakura's is a three-player map, effectively two-player in tournaments. Just show some (preferrably ladder) replays of you beating an early pool when you set out to do this build on any map, be it two-player, three-player, or four? I think that in this thread you are very resistant to constructive criticism. Your original post doesn't address some major topics (early pools, two-base roach/hydra timing attacks, etc.) and I think that you should consider devoting some space to these things.
On shakuras you can defend 6 pool with reactionary Forge, but this is not a place for this discussion. I wrote clearly that this is NOT a build order guide, and it was a EXAMPLE of a build order. Find the right thread about it if you don't know how to forge expand and help yourself out. A response to the rushes you're mentioning was covered in MANY threads featuring FFE, there is no need for me to repeat it. Just do what you do with regular stargate opening.
On July 20 2012 00:20 Asmodeusx wrote: This is FFE discussion, it has nothing to do with my guide.
My question wasn't even about four-player maps. Shakura's is a three-player map, effectively two-player in tournaments. Just show some (preferrably ladder) replays of you beating an early pool when you set out to do this build on any map, be it two-player, three-player, or four? I think that in this thread you are very resistant to constructive criticism. Your original post doesn't address some major topics (early pools, two-base roach/hydra timing attacks, etc.) and I think that you should consider devoting some space to these things.
Why are you criticizing the part of his build that is exactly the same as pretty much all other Protoss builds? What he's saying is there is plenty of discussion on how to deal with stuff like that in other threads just dealing with FFE in general.
Very interesting build. I'd like to see how you deal with hydra-based armies though. I suppose Chargelots and Storm make up for the fact that hydras are strong vs. VR's? If that's the case, how would you deal with a Roach/Hydra push that hits before those are out?
build seems really strong, the replay against the "mass roach" wasnt really the roach max done well, so i'd be interested to see someone with better mechanics do that build against you.
Also, "l2p you are just copying pros" might be some of the best BM i've seen
cool build though, definitely gonna try this out, since storm is so underused in PvZ thanks!
On July 20 2012 01:12 Salivanth wrote: Very interesting build. I'd like to see how you deal with hydra-based armies though. I suppose Chargelots and Storm make up for the fact that hydras are strong vs. VR's? If that's the case, how would you deal with a Roach/Hydra push that hits before those are out?
Hydras are not that strong vs VR's, it's a missconception popular due to the fact that when you see those units fight it's usually like 2-3 voidrays vs 10 hydras. To defend any push that comes with hydras you need to scout the timing and drone count and decide if you can hold your 3rd. Cut probes and add cannons and use your ~15+ forcefields well. Zealot/sentry/VR with cannons and buildings tanking demage will do just fine. People used to defend those roach hydra pushes after opening 2 stargates with no real effort (KiWiKaKi used to do this alot).
Hydralisk is just not a good unit in general, and you can see it in replay nr 3 i think.
On July 20 2012 01:19 TechnoSchaman wrote: build seems really strong, the replay against the "mass roach" wasnt really the roach max done well, so i'd be interested to see someone with better mechanics do that build against you.
Also, "l2p you are just copying pros" might be some of the best BM i've seen
cool build though, definitely gonna try this out, since storm is so underused in PvZ thanks!
Yea, i agree that roach attack could be bigger and more scary, it got utterly obliterated tho. If he split army better, my other cannons and units at 3rd would come into play, so the outcome would be similar.
He does mention having a hard timing against maxed roach/roach hydra, but he also tries to skip as many sentries as possible in favour of faster storm so there's that to consider.
By the way, why go for such a fast mothership? From what little i have heard and seen of this style, once you have a good archon/templar/void ray composition with a few zealots to support there's nothing short of mass broodlords that can kill you, and those don't come out until later in the game.
He does mention having a hard timing against maxed roach/roach hydra, but he also tries to skip as many sentries as possible in favour of faster storm so there's that to consider.
By the way, why go for such a fast mothership? From what little i have heard and seen of this style, once you have a good archon/templar/void ray composition with a few zealots to support there's nothing short of mass broodlords that can kill you, and those don't come out until later in the game.
This build sounds similar but only because the lack of stalkers. I'm not getting any immortals, and only a couple archons and carriers if any. I also don't do any 2 base preassure and the 3rd is faster. But yea, the concept is similar - don't use wrong units for wrong reasons ^^
Good zerg will rush to hive and getting mothership at this timing is very important. It's true that zerg will not have huge numbers of broodlords yet, but it's important to have as much energy as possible on mothership. It's just very strong and usefull unit and when you're safe to tech to it, it's worth it. You will also have mass recall available roughly at the time your army is ready to move out and reduce the number of bases that zerg is mining from. And you're getting fleet beacon for upgrades regardless.
btw. maxed roach/roach hydra is really bad vs what i'm doing, it's too supply inefficient. The correct answer from zerg seems to be mass infestor/corruptor + alot of spore/spine crawlers but it's damn hard for zerg to afford all that, defend bases from WP harass AND upgrade their corruptors well.
On July 20 2012 03:00 FreeHugz wrote: I made an account just to thank you for putting down this build! Really awesome I don't know what everyone is complaining about.
You guys should stop breaking his balls about the specifics..... builds like this have been posted a lot on this forums and have been around the ladder a lot more recently.... I have it in the toolbox as well now... I'm not super convinced on the void rays, and ditto on the necessity of early mothership, but as stated and in general it is a solid build
On July 20 2012 01:12 Salivanth wrote: Very interesting build. I'd like to see how you deal with hydra-based armies though. I suppose Chargelots and Storm make up for the fact that hydras are strong vs. VR's? If that's the case, how would you deal with a Roach/Hydra push that hits before those are out?
Hydras are not that strong vs VR's, it's a missconception popular due to the fact that when you see those units fight it's usually like 2-3 voidrays vs 10 hydras. To defend any push that comes with hydras you need to scout the timing and drone count and decide if you can hold your 3rd. Cut probes and add cannons and use your ~15+ forcefields well. Zealot/sentry/VR with cannons and buildings tanking demage will do just fine. People used to defend those roach hydra pushes after opening 2 stargates with no real effort (KiWiKaKi used to do this alot).
Hydras shoot the same range as Void Rays and do higher DPS than Void Rays. They cost less money per food: A Void is 250/150 per 3 food; one and a half Hydras cost 150/75. Hydras should be focus firing down Void Rays as well, to be cost effective--this isn't as strong for the side of the Void Rays because the Hydras are more plentiful and therefore less susceptible to focus fire. So how, exactly, are Hydras bad against Void Rays?
Hydralisk is just not a good unit in general, and you can see it in replay nr 3 i think.
Hydralisks are susceptable to AoE and a slow-moving unit (off creep), but that doesn't make them bad units. It just makes them situational and timing-based. You're making a really, really bold statement here.
If we're both talking about the same replay, #3 is the one against MRVampire on Ohana, right? He misses injects pretty poorly, supply blocks the hell out of himself, and hits you at 13 minutes with the smallest roach max I have ever seen--which you should have forcefielded way better (2 FFs on the ramp) because there is no excuse not to see that coming when you have voids on the map and he has no antiair with his army. If that was a full-blown roach max, you would be completely screwed--and that was 13 minutes into the game. He screwed up a ton of his macro, even back in the droning period, and your front wall was broken by that half-assed roach hit, still. Imagine if he had done things properly. So much more damage should have happened there, even if he hadn't improved his injects and he had simply not supply blocked himself so badly (check for the point when he builds 7 overlords at once and floats larva for a while...haaaaaaarrrrsshhh).
And then he builds a hydra den after that, and by the time you go hit his third, you both are floating a ton of resources. It's 14:43 into the game, and you have 1535 min/1184 gas/153 supply; the zerg has 2044 min/1141 gas/148 supply. Frankly, I don't give a shit how any engagements go from this point forward.
On July 20 2012 01:19 TechnoSchaman wrote: build seems really strong, the replay against the "mass roach" wasnt really the roach max done well, so i'd be interested to see someone with better mechanics do that build against you.
Also, "l2p you are just copying pros" might be some of the best BM i've seen
cool build though, definitely gonna try this out, since storm is so underused in PvZ thanks!
Yea, i agree that roach attack could be bigger and more scary, it got utterly obliterated tho. If he split army better, my other cannons and units at 3rd would come into play, so the outcome would be similar.[/QUOTE]
If he built a 160 food army and threw it at you at the 13 minute mark, you would have died. Maybe if you used better forcefields at the ramp and better preparation with Voids out to scout and start clocking down Roaches, it would have been a better situation--and I do think it's very hold-able on that map. The problem to me is that you're making a lot of bold claims and your evidence is really shotty. I don't need to see Symbol-level macro or DRG-level macro to be persuaded, but it would help if your opponent didn't get mega supply blocked when you weren't even overloard hunting.
On July 20 2012 00:20 Asmodeusx wrote: This is FFE discussion, it has nothing to do with my guide.
My question wasn't even about four-player maps. Shakura's is a three-player map, effectively two-player in tournaments. Just show some (preferrably ladder) replays of you beating an early pool when you set out to do this build on any map, be it two-player, three-player, or four? I think that in this thread you are very resistant to constructive criticism. Your original post doesn't address some major topics (early pools, two-base roach/hydra timing attacks, etc.) and I think that you should consider devoting some space to these things.
? It's not really needed, I don't understand why you are pushing this so much. You adapt your FFE according to what you scout, that's how it works. Obviously you won't go nexus-forge-gateway-cannon if you scout an 11 pool. He shouldn't have to outline every possible FFE variation as it is common knowledge and irrelevant to his build.
What's with the low quality P guides that just say "make x unit composition, get a mothership, win"?
You need to have like a tldr or something, it takes like 10 minutes to figure out what you are even getting at. You introduce just a standard FFE stargate build but dont really say what you are doing, we have to figure it out with your build order and you saying about how great certain units are when macro and timings are much more important. Like the other mothership/archon thread, how are you going to deal with mass roach at 11:30, or roach/hydra drops, mutas, etc.
Maybe make the guide more refined? I just don't see this guide as the key to changing the PvZ metagame into everyone getting motherships on 2 base. Zerg focuses the third down with ling/roach, and that's it, you can't really win anymore.
On July 20 2012 04:52 Belial88 wrote: What's with the low quality P guides that just say "make x unit composition, get a mothership, win"?
You need to have like a tldr or something, it takes like 10 minutes to figure out what you are even getting at. You introduce just a standard FFE stargate build but dont really say what you are doing, we have to figure it out with your build order and you saying about how great certain units are when macro and timings are much more important. Like the other mothership/archon thread, how are you going to deal with mass roach at 11:30, or roach/hydra drops, mutas, etc.
Maybe make the guide more refined? I just don't see this guide as the key to changing the PvZ metagame into everyone getting motherships on 2 base. Zerg focuses the third down with ling/roach, and that's it, you can't really win anymore.
No kidding.
If we're going to talk about 2base--Mothership-->3rd for PvZ, we should be talking about how to hold the 3rd with a Mothership and how to transition. There are already guides for opening FFE-->Stargate.
Belial and ineversmile, did you even read it? There is no mention of 2 base mothership and the replays + example build order should be descriptive enaugh
"how are you going to deal with mass roach at 11:30, or roach/hydra drops, mutas, etc."
It's all in the guide/replays.
"Zerg focuses the third down with ling/roach, and that's it, you can't really win anymore."
I've been messing around with similar "air-protoss" ideas but I havent been able to make it work more reliably than immortal sentry expands. The concept strikes me as being superior but Immortals are so much easier to use than Voids in my experience.
There's a moment of weakness when taking your third base, which is pretty much true of any Protoss composition. I don't think Hydras are as big a problem as people think, the real trouble I've had is with heavy infestor plays. I'm going to try your build order out and see if it's superior to what I was using, thanks for posting this Asmodeusx
I like the void opening, and the entire guide reminds me of this build since both have air openings and transition into HT tech. Difference is this one has less gates and uses sentries and phoenixes as well.
That being said, I don't think you need sentries for defense. You don't need forcefields at all. You can sit pretty on 2 base while damaging Zerg's economy (hence he is not pulling ahead) and just have a wall of buildings (with the door being a cyber core or gateway) with cannons behind. If the Zerg tries to counter in the midgame with lings and/or roaches, cannons will take potshots which gives you time to come home with voids and deal with the mess. You can always rebuild your wall with gates or temporary cybernetics cores (1000 hp and 50 sec build time, recharges hp faster than gateway when built) and then continue your macro.
Storm/Charge is late that you would die to a hydra push...all Zerg has to see is continuation of void rays being produced or multiple void rays in the air to convince them to make hydras
Your 11:00 timing where you get your templar archives down is a timing Zerg can punish with a sizeable hydra/ling army which will eventually kill your army, third, and soon enough you will end up losing. Your food around this time should be like 100 or so whereas Zerg will have 160+.
Now you say how your wall and cannons should delay enough time for you to have storm and/or charge, but that's completely false. The DPS of the Hydras would crush all your buildings within 30 seconds if anything. So from there what do you do. Do you sac your third and build another wall at your natural?
What do you think about this strategy?: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352585 he gets mothership really early, but rely in archoons an chargelots instead of air/ground composition, i think that stargate, anf fleet beacon are a nice way to go, but the problem are the transitions, ill love that more players try this stuff to get a new way of playing pvz.
I think that shield upg its too expensive, but if u get early archoons could be efffective...
The addition of carriers is interesting, but you need a lot of gas and u have a really weak window where zerg can crush you.
dude he is saying that he would scout the early pool and not nexus first its pretty simple, if you want a replay of a protoss beating a zerg that does a fast pool there are thousands out there, just because you start off a game with the intent to nexus first does not mean you have to go for it, if you scout fast pool then throw down forge and get some cannons. he isnt putting in how to defend agains a 7-11 pool because that subject has been discussed to death, and the two poeple who he was being "constructively criticized" were either bringing up a point that wasnt relevant to the discussion ie; how to defend FE against early pool or had one one liner like auto loose to derp derp shderp. nice guide thx
On July 20 2012 05:08 Asmodeusx wrote: Belial and ineversmile, did you even read it? There is no mention of 2 base mothership and the replays + example build order should be descriptive enaugh
"how are you going to deal with mass roach at 11:30, or roach/hydra drops, mutas, etc."
It's all in the guide/replays.
"Zerg focuses the third down with ling/roach, and that's it, you can't really win anymore."
Lol, that's all i've got to say.
Maybe I'm confused how 12:45 and 63 supply line up in terms of timings, but I can see you are just taking a third off single stargate and then 3 gates total - the standard hydra response makes sure that you absolutely cannot take a third until you have colossus out, hence why in recent PvZ you see every Toss get colossus before third when opening stargate, and I doubt you could take it even against roach/ling, even without colossus tech vs roach/ling/nohydras.
On July 20 2012 05:08 Asmodeusx wrote: Belial and ineversmile, did you even read it? There is no mention of 2 base mothership and the replays + example build order should be descriptive enaugh
"how are you going to deal with mass roach at 11:30, or roach/hydra drops, mutas, etc."
It's all in the guide/replays.
"Zerg focuses the third down with ling/roach, and that's it, you can't really win anymore."
Lol, that's all i've got to say.
Maybe I'm confused how 12:45 and 63 supply line up in terms of timings, but I can see you are just taking a third off single stargate and then 3 gates total - the standard hydra response makes sure that you absolutely cannot take a third until you have colossus out, hence why in recent PvZ you see every Toss get colossus before third when opening stargate, and I doubt you could take it even against roach/ling, even without colossus tech vs roach/ling/nohydras.
On July 20 2012 05:08 Asmodeusx wrote: Belial and ineversmile, did you even read it? There is no mention of 2 base mothership and the replays + example build order should be descriptive enaugh
"how are you going to deal with mass roach at 11:30, or roach/hydra drops, mutas, etc."
It's all in the guide/replays.
"Zerg focuses the third down with ling/roach, and that's it, you can't really win anymore."
Lol, that's all i've got to say.
Maybe I'm confused how 12:45 and 63 supply line up in terms of timings, but I can see you are just taking a third off single stargate and then 3 gates total - the standard hydra response makes sure that you absolutely cannot take a third until you have colossus out, hence why in recent PvZ you see every Toss get colossus before third when opening stargate, and I doubt you could take it even against roach/ling, even without colossus tech vs roach/ling/nohydras.
Yep, its very difficult to hold a third in that timming u need great FF and some unit that can deal with the zerg mass, like collossus or void ray(or phoenix like MC vs DRG). Thats why i think the motherships its great, because u can expand just moments before that the MS pop out (if u cant in the first try), and ur wall its unbreakable for a while. U need to be active with ur air force to kill the overseer and u get a free expo and a stronger push after that (or u can sit and play defensive until maxed)
Don't feed the trolls. This style is amazing - I've been using it for quite some time now, with mass cannons and defensive mothership for recall. It actually owns hydra builds. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but it's true. You have to play around with the build, actually try it before making blind assumptions. I've stomped Zergs who literally built nothing but drones, queens, and hydras. 2-3 Carriers later on is really important, as well as adding in Archons and Storm later. The only composition that can effectively combat this is corruptor/infestor, and even that can be beaten with quick recalls to cannon farms and proxy pylons scattered about to warpin chargelots at 3-4 locations if he commits to mass mass corruptors. This style lends very well to a true lategame macro PvZ, is very strong, allows you to secure a 4th base without much difficulty, and even allows for gateway transitions if necessary later on. Mass Voids and a few Carriers, with HT/Archon fornsupport and chargelots for harass, and cannons at all your bases for a mineral dump is incredibly effective. You can send zealots to all his bases, fly your air to his main and snipe a few key tech structures, and even if all your air gets fungaled when his army arrives, you can easily mass recall onto a cannon farm, keep your entire air army intact, and harass with warpins of throwaway units while you continue with upgrades, dropping cannons, and expanding your map control. This is a boss way to play PvZ, and it certainly is not "autoloss" even against straight hydra tech. Void Rays still beat Hydras if you're fighting over a shittin of cannons and micro voids properly. If you prepared for really long map-control games and are good with recalland not afraid to use excessive cannons as a mineral dump, this style kicks ass.
Note about playing this style at a high level: I've found that it's a lot better to leave your MS at home, avoid direct engagements with your Air in favor of focusing down hatcheries, tech structures, denying upgrades, etc., and using your defensive MS to mass recall your air whenever he defend and hits your Air with a fungal. This requires liberal use of cannons, but that isn't a huge problem as your army pretty much stays alive all game with good recalls and is very gas heavy anyway, so you need a mineral dump once you're on 4-5 bases. Cannon farms and defensive HTs for storms give you safe spots to recall back to, discourage counterattacks, and a MS on defense means all this is cloaked, and your air is free to roam aout killing expansions, as it can be recalled for defense as and when needed.
If you're a patient, intelligent player, this style will serve you well, at the Master League level and beyond. Try not to get too hung up on the OP's exact build order. It's only an example,and there are plenty of ways to execute this safely and efficiently. It really is insanely strong, packed with potential, and lends the kind of mobility that puts the ball in your (Protoss) court, for once. I definitely recommend trying it out and tinkering with it. It's tough at first, but add your own adaptations and improvisations, and I promise you'll find it's a lot stronger and more viable than you guessed.
On July 20 2012 09:00 Masvidal wrote:Try not to get too hung up on the OP's exact build order. It's only an example,and there are plenty of ways to execute this safely and efficiently.
I'm happy that someone gets this part.
And yea, cannons are very important for many reasons. Some people try to counter it by scattering speedlings or roaches around the map and harassing all expansions and it's much better to spend extra resources on static defences than lose a mining base.
On July 20 2012 11:36 etherealfall wrote: Belial and asmodeus should play it out to provide some high quality replays
^ Cool idea. Be interesting to see.
I watched the vs 12 min max one because I didn't think this build could hold. From what I saw, since you don't get the +1 melee, you're ridiculously open to any kind of ling aggression. You would think zealots and sentry could deal with it, but not when you dump gas into VRs instead of sentries and skip the melee upgrade. Early lings will easily deny your fast third and you'll never be able to catch up with upgrades in the melee department, leaving you on two bases until you get enough VRs, by which time i believe zerg should react properly...
edit: this build is like that modern greedy gateway superwall expand, except with the voidrays.
Proper stephano mass roach style come with lings and multi-prong aggression, this replay did not have that. The buttload of VRs may still hold it tho if you got great sim city.
Every toss needs to get faster mothership if they don't have a good pre-BL push.
On July 20 2012 11:36 etherealfall wrote: Belial and asmodeus should play it out to provide some high quality replays
Just because these people post a lot doesn't mean they are high level players, I've had friends in low masters play Belial, I would like to see some actual high level players, meaning tip top master/gm players to see proper responses.
On July 20 2012 11:36 etherealfall wrote: Belial and asmodeus should play it out to provide some high quality replays
Just because these people post a lot doesn't mean they are high level players, I've had friends in low masters play Belial, I would like to see some actual high level players, meaning tip top master/gm players to see proper responses.
I don't understand your nitpicking. Do you mean ladder games? Because your MMR will place you with opponents not necessarily in your skill ball park. A counter example: I've versed and beaten GM players as a high diamond.
I disagree a lot with many concepts. No offense but looks like the classic case of a build that work wonders untill certain skill level. I gotta go now, but i will post all my counter arguments to your build later. And btw, a while ago, like a year or something, a semi-pro player called rsvp (gm of curse) used a pretty similar build (stargate/gate into 3rd, voids plus charge and storm composition) and he explained why it stoped working. That composition just can't hold a 3rd consistently vs mainly-roach armies at higher levels.
Game on daybreak: your opponent macroed very poorly (below 60 suply at 8 min) and almost played blindly till minute 11 when he just commit suicide with his full army of about 50 lings. So, he didn't make a real attack but his tech choice started at 13 min!! I stopped watching there cose you were pretty ahead (no build influence at all).
Game on ohana vs mr vampire: Again, almost unexistent scout from the Z, and even worse macro (below 50 suply at 8min with no engagement at all!!! You had a 8 worker lead by that time...). The Z goes for a blind pure roach attack at 12:30 (164/166) and got crushed (he even choose the ramp instead of the wide 3rd -.-"). After that, you were really ahead: same bases, more workers and tech for you, no tech or army for him.
Game on ohana vs becareful: Despite some weird stuff, this is the best of the 3 Z's. 59 suply, lair on the way and roach done at 8 min. Weak scout again, he had no idea about your build besides the phoenix (3rd? gate all in? robo? composition?). You have no idea about his build either till the build was done. Just at 12 he saw your 3rd up and running (then he sent an overseer), and you saw his high ling count. Then at 19 min, your superb composition rapes his army. Yes, this build will blindly CRUSH any blind attempt for infestor-brood rush, no one will deny that.
Now about your reasoning:
First off all, at higher levels, you need to be efficient. Not just effective, efficient. Builds are just tighter, faster, so you do not have time to make the same stuff that you can do aganist a slower opponent.
Shield upgrade-zealot-charge-storm: Any good zerg have very high macro capabilities when you don't pressure them. In your build i do not see any real pressure besides the threat of stargate. So they can do any of their 11-13 min roach/ling, roach/hidra/ling pushes wihouth any delay. And with you teching so hard, and with tech that do not counter any roach based army at all, you will be dead at any of those timings (again, vs decent zerg). Thats why top koreans tech to robo after any macro stargate play.
Extra stuff:
- If you go for stargate play, you need to start both your gases at once. In all your games you had plenty minerals and shortage of gas after your cybercore. I have watched a lot of pro stargate builds. Believe me , you need that fast 2nd gas for any stargate build. Even more if you want that safety sentry early.
- If you go for void ray, why get a phoenix 1st? The only reason i can think off, is faking mass phoenix for a z overreaction, but honestly that will happen at certain level. The idea of void first is to make the slow production/harass unit fast before showing your hand off early.
- In the guide you talk about " if your opponent is smart" and "if your opponent is stupid". You should not make a guide skill-dependant to work (well, there are some builds that need skill to work, like heavy multitask phoenix play).
It allows you to play a macro game with zerg, without a time-bomb counting your minutes untill "unstoppable" broodlord/infestor/spinecrawler army rolls over you. You can actually fight against it.
If you posted anything remotely close to this back in 2010 you would be locked in a mental hospital, i find it pretty funny, there have been patches etc of course, but the real game changers didnt come from those IMO
Before I learn this build, I need to see a game vs a good muta player off 3 base.
I dont mean to disregard your efforts (its an innovative and good style indeed, I have been playing airtoss a lot myself), but mutas are my biggest problem in PvZ.
On July 20 2012 11:36 etherealfall wrote: Belial and asmodeus should play it out to provide some high quality replays
Just because these people post a lot doesn't mean they are high level players, I've had friends in low masters play Belial, I would like to see some actual high level players, meaning tip top master/gm players to see proper responses.
On July 21 2012 04:14 Daimai wrote: Before I learn this build, I need to see a game vs a good muta player off 3 base.
I dont mean to disregard your efforts (its an innovative and good style indeed, I have been playing airtoss a lot myself), but mutas are my biggest problem in PvZ.
Mutas are easy with this style. You just add your 2nd Stargate and Fleet Beacon earlier in lieu of making extra Gateways and put some cannons down. Double pump Phoenix and get Phoenix Range upgrade. Then you kite Mutas until you have number to chase and kill them, harass Queens/Gas Drones, and take extra bases behind it. You get a lot of Phoenix, then mass up HTs and Chargelots to Feedback the inevitable infestors and Chargelots for possible Hydras. With Phoenix air superiority, you can then start adding Void Rays and a Mothership and play the map control game. Muta is really easy with this, it plays right into your hands and cedes map control to you; against Mutas if you play it right, you can get to 5 bases insanely fast and keep so much pressure on the Zerg.
My favorite part about this style is that you never really kill Zerg; you just take the entire map,max out and watch army after army bounce off of you until Zerg gives up and realizes he just can't kill you, BMs you, and ragequits while still on like 4 bases or so. I love the moment when they send max Hydra army and it melts and they just BM and ragequit. It makes the whole 45 minute turtle game worthwhile.
Finally got the time to watch the replays and I love it - will try out soon. Nevertheless I do have a few questions: 1. Would you be so kind to add a replay of you defending 2base muta and 3base muta? 2. I think I read an article by Grubby showing that upgraded VR do in fact less damage vs certain units, because they never get charged. Wouldnt it be stronger to upgrade armor before damage? Same for zealots which mainly work as a meat shield as far as I understand. So what about Shields > Ground/Air Armour > Weapons? 3. I think your build has the same weakness as the "Easy Wins in PVZ build" it is susceptible to drops. How would you deal with a zerg constantly dropping you in various locations? 4. I noticed that you are always low on gas, but do add some amounts in the minerals. Wouldnt your build even be stronger if you used warp prism drops as a mineral dump? 5. Do you get bm'ed a lot with this build?
2. The air attack upgrade is still worth it. They have high attack speed and you're going to be fighting mostly roach/ling in the midgame, so it helps alot. In the late game, by the time voidrays charge up you should already win or lose and engagement, it's just helpfull in skirmishes with low numbers of units.
3. By the time a 3 hatch zerg can research drop you have like 6-8 voidrays and maby 1-2 phenixes. Just scout the overlords and kill them, use chargelot warpins to clean anything he menages to sneak in.
4. It's good, i use mass warp prism harass shortly after i take my 4th, you can start it earlier if you want. Taking my 4th requires usually like 8 cannons and 2 pylons + the nexus and when you constantly add warpgates you can quickly warp 10-15 chargelots to defend an attack (you normally don't want to make those zealots, leaving supply for better units and for harass) so i kinda need the excess minerals.
5. Yupp. Alot ;]
A good strategy with this style is just starving the zerg by denying bases with warp prism and recall. SUPER effective on cloud kingdom ( http://drop.sc/234071 ). My recent PvZ's take about 40 minutes and end with me on 6 bases vs zerg on 4, and when he knows he can't expand again he waits few minutes in silence and then gg's without any engagement. It's beautifull
And to the guy who was saying that it only looks cool but is inefficient... In the replay vs mutas on shakuras at the end of the game you can see a carrier with 39 kills, an archon with 41 kills, another archon with 60 kills and third archon with 66 kills.
+3 shield regen abuse and you're gonna start seeing 10+ kill sentries, packs of voidrays with average of 15 kills each and i'm usually 20k/30k ahead in the resources lost.
Duuuude... this is so similar to stalkerless style (which is really good and I use a lot), and s such it is not new, the only things you do differently is going macro instead of going 3gate SG - zealot void pressure. I think you got some nice ideas, like getting heavy shield upgrades fast to help defense and getting pretty fast MS, but I think you should try to start with the stalkerless opening (or some other form of pressure) cause there is no way in hell you would be able to hold roach / hydra push if you get 3rd base and he doesn't need to make early units.
I do agree with you that the current composition is bad and should be replaced, but the correct way to do it is not pure macro style, since you simply can't do that, you have to do some pressure from time to time, forcing the Zerg to make mistakes and keeping it in its base and in yours.
On August 05 2012 09:34 moskonia wrote: cause there is no way in hell you would be able to hold roach / hydra push if you get 3rd base and he doesn't need to make early units.
That's an interesting opinion, considering i hold those kinds of attacks all the time and i already provided replays for it.
but the correct way to do it is not pure macro style, since you simply can't do that
That's an interesting opinion, considering i do it all the time and i already provided replays for it.
In response to the Atropin question about warp prism - here is a replay where i abuse zerg with warp prisms with this style on cloud kingdom: http://drop.sc/234134
Watching the game on ohana it is clear the Zerg overreacted to abusultly nothing, I want to see a replay where you beat a macro Zerg who doesn't build 4 spores and 20 roaches and simply drones up till he comes with big hydra roach push or hydra ling push.
About the game, he went suicided all of his roached on you natural, instead of going through the 3rd where he can't be blocked so easily. He lost all of his roaches doing near to zero damage, this was not a game of equal play, he simply played bad. The fact that your following push didn't kill him shows how much your build is not game changing. But from there he still stands no chance since he goes mass hydra with no support whatsoever, which just shows he played this for his first time and has no idea how to play against mass air.
I think the only viable way to go mass air is to get early high templars, since without feedback or storm you stand no chance against hydra's or infestors based pushes.
Watching the could kingdom game only supports my argument about the need for HT, since you can only hold your 3rd after making a couple of them. Of course he did make some weird stuff such as 10 early lings and 4 spores in reaction to seeing your air which imo is an overreaction, 1 or maybe 2 would be enough. Also, his making of BL's lategame shows that he too never played vs air style toss, which makes me wonder how this style will fare against someone who actually knows what it is...
This is an interesting build, I will definitely add it to my PvZ arsenal. Another good strategy is the Skytoss+mothership expand. It works rather well against any sort of pressure to deny a 3rd base. All it takes is a sim city of buildings and cannons and void rays. Theres plenty of replays available on a TL thread, I forgot which one. Also, a player by the name of Sidewinder on the blizzard forums refined the build to a more macro/agressive style. Theres a youtube video up for this build.
Take what you will from it. It worked for me on my 2nd try versus a top masters zerg.
On August 05 2012 21:27 moskonia wrote: Watching the game on ohana it is clear the Zerg overreacted to abusultly nothing, I want to see a replay where you beat a macro Zerg who doesn't build 4 spores and 20 roaches and simply drones up till he comes with big hydra roach push or hydra ling push.
About the game, he went suicided all of his roached on you natural, instead of going through the 3rd where he can't be blocked so easily. He lost all of his roaches doing near to zero damage, this was not a game of equal play, he simply played bad. The fact that your following push didn't kill him shows how much your build is not game changing. But from there he still stands no chance since he goes mass hydra with no support whatsoever, which just shows he played this for his first time and has no idea how to play against mass air.
I think the only viable way to go mass air is to get early high templars, since without feedback or storm you stand no chance against hydra's or infestors based pushes.
Watching the could kingdom game only supports my argument about the need for HT, since you can only hold your 3rd after making a couple of them. Of course he did make some weird stuff such as 10 early lings and 4 spores in reaction to seeing your air which imo is an overreaction, 1 or maybe 2 would be enough. Also, his making of BL's lategame shows that he too never played vs air style toss, which makes me wonder how this style will fare against someone who actually knows what it is...
I love how you point out mistakes in my enemy but don't notice any mistakes on my part, which are often equal or greater than the ones the zerg player makes. But thank you for the compliments i guess
Also, i'm afraid you won't see a replay when players builds 1 spore per base when he sees multiple voidrays and goes mad with pure hydra. I played close to 100 games with this style and haven't encountered it yet. Chargelot/sentry/voidray/cannon does well vs hydras, and i know it because people mix them in sometimes and they are suddenly reminded why hydra is not an answer to any protoss unit really, i don't know where people got this idea from.
"I think the only viable way" have you played around with this style, or you just "think"?
Another replay, featuring phoenixes vs infestor/ling, worlds fastest broodlord push and corruptors+hydra/ling later on - http://drop.sc/234391 After seeing infestation pit i scouted spire, so i thought he's going to go mutas after i scouted infestors, so i made phoenixes. They ended up being pretty usefull even vs bl/infestor/corruptor.
This is the direction TL and many streams I've been watching has been trending for a while now. The skytoss discussion gave rise to early mothership and voidray centric play, supported by HT/Archon for a very potent endgame. Faster 3rd vs zerg 3 base/5 base play is an obvious must.
This is a nice synopsis of the emerging standard with some good original content on timings/technique as well.
It is definitely important to remember that this isn't a strict build order, but an overall flow to the matchup. You can gateway expand, 2 stargate pressure, ffe into sentries to take 3rd, etc and always come back to mothership/VR/HT/Archon.
The main two points to beware are Banelings in the early game, and Hydra timing attacks with or without nydus. You CAN beat this with good sentry/mothership control, but it will take some time to get used to.
quillian, that sums it up pretty good. Just the way I think about it too. It's a new trend and definitely something that shows much potential. More potential than taking thirds playing standard as it is now. I always thought using stalkers as a main fighting unit was bad. No wonder pro players mostly resort to two base timing attacks.
Right now, voidray into fast mothership then third, other fast mothership third and Jangbi's fast third base are all looking like the style that might one day replace the current one.
On August 05 2012 09:00 Asmodeusx wrote: 1. http://drop.sc/234072 This replay shows how to deal with mutas.
No it does not. there is not a single muta in the entire game
o.O i was sure i uploaded the right one wtf, anyway, here definitely are mutalisks http://drop.sc/234811
sorry, but that game shows how to deal with 7 mutas popping out after the zerg has taken his 5th base
What I mean is a zerg playing 2base or 3base muta like seriously A zerg who constantly harrasses you with his 24+ mutas
I am playing your style actually, but holding versus a good muta player who just doesnt run his mutas into your storms and stays there is REALLY difficult
On August 05 2012 09:00 Asmodeusx wrote: 1. http://drop.sc/234072 This replay shows how to deal with mutas.
No it does not. there is not a single muta in the entire game
o.O i was sure i uploaded the right one wtf, anyway, here definitely are mutalisks http://drop.sc/234811
sorry, but that game shows how to deal with 7 mutas popping out after the zerg has taken his 5th base
What I mean is a zerg playing 2base or 3base muta like seriously A zerg who constantly harrasses you with his 24+ mutas
I am playing your style actually, but holding versus a good muta player who just doesnt run his mutas into your storms and stays there is REALLY difficult
Watch the replay again, that's not what happened in this game, i don't know what the fuck you're talking about. He made 14 mutas when spire finished and added 8 more when those finished. Check your eyes.
Opening stargate and scouting zerg around the time lair finishes makes it super easy to play vs mutas, i don't see your problem. If they go 3 hatch muta, they will make about 15 mutas instantly and you'll have 7-8 phoenixes to deal with them + cannons and any ground units that you'll warp in. Vs 2 hatch muta you do the same just add 2 more cannons because you will have spare minerals (you're not taking 3rd and you have lower phoenix count). You pretty much want them to go mutas when you open stargate and can scout them...
"A zerg who constantly harrasses you with his 24+ mutas" He can't constantly harass, because once his mutas are on my side of the map they're all dead, because i have phoenixes with range and better upgrades...
I'm back after a break and i'm trying new approaches to the same style. I'm delaying stargate, and getting faster storm, also hallucination for scouting, since i skip the robo and stargate, and i need to see the mutas coming to not die instantly.
+Attack upgraded chargelots, sentries, cannons+simcity and later storm in midgame -> then pumping air units and upgrades.
Here's some more of depressing PvZ: http://drop.sc/265657 (zerg goes standard 3 hatch into infestor and transitions to broodlord while defending with spines and lings, after getting slammed he thinks for a moment - then leaves in sad silence)
Very good another Stargate play vs zerg, I love them. Void ray is definitely the most underrated unit in this matchup, while it works just great. You gain the control of the skies since the early game and get the upgrade advantage making zerg's lategame broodlord+corruptor switch incredibly weak. Looks a lot like the style I use except that I get a very fast mothership.
In your last replay, I'm fairly sure your dead to a stephano max attack (11-12min), despite your o, so, gosu building placement.
Overall I like your concept, I have even done something similar myself a few times way back when... (I went pure stargate, all the money you sink into zlots and WGs, i sunk into cannons and a faster third . Cannons w/ shields are fun XD.
I'm curious to see if there is a way to tighten this so that you dont instantly die to it. I dont think your hallucination would be in time to scout AND then prepare for it, but making allowances for (not_gosu_gm) lvl play it might be okay.
I'm thinking just build 2-3 moar gates for walling, then take a superfast third, mass cannons, get shields and +1 air first, then start pumping voidrays. That's what "I" would do when I go back to playing random, but for now me like
---I like how you put cannons above the ledge to your fourth. Nice --- Funny how zerg just forgot he had about 10 corruptors by his fifth for about half the end game... not that it would have mattered XD
On October 18 2012 05:17 tehemperorer wrote: Can you comment on how you believe HotS will change this build?
Yea, you replace carriers with tempest, get enaugh of them to 1 shot infestors and have fun being actually able to micro unlike with carriers
Also, swarm hosts would probably force faster robo.
In your last replay, I'm fairly sure your dead to a stephano max attack (11-12min), despite your o, so, gosu building placement.
...but he wasn't rushing to 200/200 roach ling, so why should i be able to stop it? I reacted to what i scouted. Nothing really dies to "stephano style", you just have to not fuck up, whatever you're doing to beat it. I don't understand why people keep nagging about it.
I'm curious to see if there is a way to tighten this so that you dont instantly die to it. I dont think your hallucination would be in time to scout AND then prepare for it
Sure it is, just chrono 3-4 times on core and you're fine vs anything
On October 18 2012 22:42 Shikada wrote: Very cool replay Asmodeusx. I like the air transition you did in this one, and the sim city was something to aspire to.
It would be great if you could post some more good games, against different builds and particularly against more aggressive opponents.
There were a lot of people asking about ~12 min roach max attack, so here you go: http://drop.sc/265846
I've had plenty of warpins, forcefields and zealots to deal with him if he tried to suicide dive in, but storms and cannons with sim city proved to be enaugh anyway. Later he didn't spread his corruptors and infested terrans, but even if he did i've had big air upgrade advantage and i could flood his bases with zealots and recal harass.
Am totally in love with this style. The Voidray focus allows you to swat aside early zerg agression and expand, the early HT makes infestor-ling with corrupters very manageable, and the TC+TA gives you a stable base to fight muta ling... all while GETTING A 4TH.
I'm just another diamond scrub, but I've been trying some things out, and here are my thoughts:
1)Double gas after expo for sentries, but staggered 3rd and 4th gasses - when the first 2 void rays come out, you are mineral starved, expanding and adding extra gates/pylons. 2) Pushing out with the first 3 VR in different directions, one clockwise around the map, one counter, and one through the middle watch towers - to kill overlords/lings and spot proxy spire. Rally the rest to front. 3) You don't need to scout for third at 4:30-5:00 anymore, as the VR+sentries will keep you safe vs a zerg who stays 2 base longer/all-ins (see note at end). Double zealot poke at third will suffice. 4) Earlier robo for obs (after 4th base, before 2nd and 3rd SGs - I like to add on extra gates after TC, but before 4th) -> creep management with voids, only one. Allows you to get a Warp Prism if zerg gets hyper aggressive etc. Basically gives you options, and since you will be expanding a lot, you will have a high gateway count later. 5) earlier FB for Air+2 - typically your next tech building after TA 6) you can fit Hallucinate in between WG research and Air+1, skip the early phoenix. However you will delay other things slightly (2nd, 3rd gates, 3rd&4th gases) unless there exists a clever optimization. 7)Archons are now ridiculously good vs mutas, lings and whatever. RIDICULOUSLY. ofc still favor HT at first :D 8) after you get into the late game, and probably destroyed a few zerg armies, you can add RoboSB for WP speed and DS, then stalker/DT/storm/zealot abuse the zerg. And if he chases you with his mutas/corrupters, well now you know you can push with your VR/HT powered army This style really allows you to get the most of your apm/multitasking and pushes you to the limit, especially if you have fast4th, BS, HT, ZealotStalker and a pack of Phoenixes to look after, all while CB your upgrades. Awesome.
Here is an example game vs very aggressive muta-ling. You can still expand! Just balance your zealot/cannon and stalker/HT around your bases. You can go phoenixes briefly, or stay with VR to build up for the inevitable GGLord or ground switch I don't know which is better yet, possibly map/opponent dependent. http://drop.sc/272044 Probably would have been better with a mothership after 4th, but I forgot - it was a pretty tense game :p Also try and hold your 4th in favor of overreacting to muta harass, if it stays alive you can rebuild probes verrrrry quickly with CB.
My favorite thing about this style is NO COLOSSUS. You are free to split your units with HT and hold/harass. Basically this style makes you feel like liquidHerO!!! Without getting rolled by roaches. Feel like there is a lot of room for optimization, and very excited for it!
N.B. I haven't played anyone who goes 2 base muta yet. could cause problems if you rally out your VRs, and you will only have 3 gates and mostly zealot/sentry but you will be on 3 bases, so...=/
I've been playing with this style for a while. It's great. It abuses Z's terrible anti air. Plus, your 200/200 army is incredibly food efficient (HT, Archons, VR, Carriers). Mineral dump in insane cannons and ridiculous zealot drops. Honestly, protoss is OP in the super late game.
You have to hide the stargates super well early game, Seen Korean pro zergs deal with this style with a roach all in,
drg did a nice chesse off 3 bases, 3rd base was only used for larva, hit @ 5:30 with tons of roaches, protoss had nothing with a stargate opener and was instant gg'd
So this build is a nice style if the zerg lacks scouts and map awareness, plenty of ways for the zerg to abuse protoss early game and mid game with stargate openers, which is why you hardly ever seen them in Pro matches, it's just not as viable as your skill increases and you get into high lvl GM and above.
Might be decent in the lower bracket/leagues. But Even carriers don't deal with a upgraded infestor/bl/corupter comp
For example Idra encountered several protoss using this exact build on him today while streaming, None of them came close to killing Idra with it, and they were excuted by GM lvl players (GM season has not started yet so they were all top 5 master)
This style does force insane long 45 min games tho. Recent Interview with David Kim said they are improving StareGate play in HOTS vs zerg, but for now Stargate is just not as viable in high lvl of play as the immortal or blink stalker all ins
or the immortal opener that nets you a 9 min safe 3rd base vs zerg, The best end game comp is still the Gimicky Soild toss death ball with mothership, and mabey a tech switch to mass carrier late in the game.
Not sure if you remeber few seasons ago in GSTL where freaky won vs mass carrier with just pure infestors.
On November 07 2012 13:49 Melaine wrote:So this build is a nice style if the zerg lacks scouts and map awareness, plenty of ways for the zerg to abuse protoss early game and mid game with stargate openers, which is why you hardly ever seen them in Pro matches
Lolwut? I'll be polite and remember that ohana, daybreak and abyssal city (which IMSeed just has just shown us) are unusually good for immortal sentry all-ins. So you are half right, 50% of the time.
drg did a nice chesse off 3 bases, 3rd base was only used for larva, hit @ 5:30 with tons of roaches, protoss had nothing with a stargate opener and was instant gg'd
Any toss who FFE instead of Gate-Expanded will have nothing at 5:30. For roaches to hit at 5:30, you'd need to throw down the warren before the third at around 3:45, even before the queen is out - which is easily scouted by the probe. Assuming a short 15s rush distance.
So DRG all-in-ing vs. a predictably greedy and careless protoss hardly qualifies as 'so many options for zerg abuse that any FFE into tech opener is nonviable.'
But really, any FFE Protoss will have nothing against what you describe unless they went 3 or 4 gate immediately after expanding, threw down 3 cannons and crono'd the living bejesus out of WG. Then they might just save their natural against what you described, sans probes lost and minerals lost due to pulling and cancelling.
For reference, 2nd and 3rd gates finish at 6:30 having cut probes briefly and VR comes out at 7:30-8:00 depending on a bunch of stuff.
Might be decent in the lower bracket/leagues. But Even carriers don't deal with a upgraded infestor/bl/corupter comp
For example Idra encountered several protoss using this exact build... blahhh blahh blah
The main thrust is from upgraded VRs/early storm. Zealots are a mineral dump, fast max, shield the HTs, and force zerg to maintain a ground force to defend infestors - useless after VRs are what is left standing. I know because I have fought infestor/bl/corrupter with this style and am not just theory crafting from year old GSL matches and IdrA's stream.
After taking my 4th, I have stupidly walked my army clumped up, straight into fungals, been puked all over with corruption - and yet - VR+Storm is enough to kill the corrupters, and mass zealots with +2 shield and a guardian shield survive long enough vs lings and infested terrans that my VRs are left alive to clear up the mess.
And this is also without the early mothership (16:20ish from Asmodeus) which I keep forgetting (not needing tbh ^^").
Oh and, only 2 carriers are added late, to 'force the zerg to engage at a longer range' or something. Read the OP. You make it sound like this is the FAST 2 BASE CARRIER MAX STYLE or some shit.
Not sure if you remeber few seasons ago in GSTL where freaky won vs mass carrier with just pure infestors.
i like the idea ... ive been thinking voidray templar would be a good way to go for a while now but i haven't found anyone actually use them at a high level of play. 1. because voidray have a tendancy to clump up meaning that fungal will do the maximum amount of damage it can do 2. infested terran and corruptos will deal with your voids very quickly not so sure protoss comes out ahead with a archon voidray/templar/ball. Assuming the zerg is smart and scouts the fact that he needs those corruptors and doesn'T morph them all into broodlord blindly -_-'
I just wanted to had that a robo needs to be included in this build way earlier, if nothing else make it and produce only observers with it if your not planning to use it for anything else, it's not a insane investement and will help you scout\react better to those timing attacks the zerg can try to bust your 3rd with.
Maybe it'S only a personnal preference but i would go for a robo before expanding insteand of making more and more voids, they are pretty bad in alot of situation(mass roach and quick 4th), and from experience it'S better to trow down a robo earlier, not when you spot a hydra dent with your first few phx for exemple, because at that point it'S too late :/
So basicly yes i think maybe the lategame composition is considerable but you really need to open something like, FFE-stargate-robo-2xgates-then nexus and this is nothing new people (pro players) have been doing this for a long time. The probleme with those kind of openings is that if the zerg identify that you are investing in a early nexus AND stargate tech he can safely take a 4th very early by only making 2-3 extra queen a a few spores and then tech straight up to infestors and that is never a good thing for toss ... has i am sure most of you have had the pleasure of experimenting yourself ^_^
On November 08 2012 22:35 HellRush wrote: i like the idea ... ive been thinking voidray templar would be a good way to go for a while now but i haven't found anyone actually use them at a high level of play. 1. because voidray have a tendancy to clump up meaning that fungal will do the maximum amount of damage it can do 2. infested terran and corruptos will deal with your voids very quickly not so sure protoss comes out ahead with a archon voidray/templar/ball. Assuming the zerg is smart and scouts the fact that he needs those corruptors and doesn'T morph them all into broodlord blindly -_-'
I just wanted to had that a robo needs to be included in this build way earlier, if nothing else make it and produce only observers with it if your not planning to use it for anything else, it's not a insane investement and will help you scout\react better to those timing attacks the zerg can try to bust your 3rd with.
Maybe it'S only a personnal preference but i would go for a robo before expanding insteand of making more and more voids, they are pretty bad in alot of situation(mass roach and quick 4th), and from experience it'S better to trow down a robo earlier, not when you spot a hydra dent with your first few phx for exemple, because at that point it'S too late :/
So basicly yes i think maybe the lategame composition is considerable but you really need to open something like, FFE-stargate-robo-2xgates-then nexus and this is nothing new people (pro players) have been doing this for a long time. The probleme with those kind of openings is that if the zerg identify that you are investing in a early nexus AND stargate tech he can safely take a 4th very early by only making 2-3 extra queen a a few spores and then tech straight up to infestors and that is never a good thing for toss ... has i am sure most of you have had the pleasure of experimenting yourself ^_^
You can delay the robo/obs because phoenix are great for scouting. For scouting tech and bases, phoenix are better than obs. Roach all-ins are the most dangerous. HT deal with Corruptors and Infestors very well, especially once you have a few archons in your army. Actually, the whole point of this composition is that Voids force Corruptors, Infestors, and Hydras, all of which are easily destroyed by HT.
You can delay the robo/obs because phoenix are great for scouting. For scouting tech and bases, phoenix are better than obs. Roach all-ins are the most dangerous. HT deal with Corruptors and Infestors very well, especially once you have a few archons in your army. Actually, the whole point of this composition is that Voids force Corruptors, Infestors, and Hydras, all of which are easily destroyed by HT.
Exacly my point, i dont deny the fact that you will use your phx to scout, but you need a robo to hold effectively those mass roach play and or hydra push(not to scout but to pump out unit out of it IF you need to) you can than use it later to pump out a few obs just to deny creep and keep a good map control, and also you can use your 1st void + obs to deny creep from zerg early game wich is always a good thing.
If you don't dilute your VRs you will find you don't need immortals. Even against a hydra-ling push(in which case immortals are a liability and colossus is a bit slow, but moreover, colossus locks you into robo-till death play which is what we are trying to avoid). Give it a go.
On November 09 2012 09:17 Jintoss wrote: If you don't dilute your VRs you will find you don't need immortals. Even against a hydra-ling push(in which case immortals are a liability and colossus is a bit slow, but moreover, colossus locks you into robo-till death play which is what we are trying to avoid). Give it a go.
I don't think their is an issue when vsing Hydra simply because you have force fields. But a pure roach comp has always giving me trouble with this opening/composition. It feels like I have to get the immortals out early for any hopes of surviving else they will just suicide drill.
I used to use the void ray + templar composition a lot, but I eventually found that it can't defend a roach + queen push. Against queens, the voids and storms do nothing. You can feedback the transfuse energy down, but in my experience, you just die. Your tech spending is so high and your economy is so much lower than Zerg's that you just can't hold.
Also, it's really hard to make voids work against infestors and corruptors in late game. Voids are too vulnerable to fungal growth and infested terrans to win games at a high rate. You'd be better off with carriers.
On November 07 2012 13:49 Melaine wrote: You have to hide the stargates super well early game, Seen Korean pro zergs deal with this style with a roach all in,
drg did a nice chesse off 3 bases, 3rd base was only used for larva, hit @ 5:30 with tons of roaches, protoss had nothing with a stargate opener and was instant gg'd
I don't think you play the same game. In what world, zerg can get 3 bases and hit 5:30 roach timing IN REACTION to scouted stargate.
(hint: not in this one)
On November 09 2012 12:24 kcdc wrote: I used to use the void ray + templar composition a lot, but I eventually found that it can't defend a roach + queen push. Against queens, the voids and storms do nothing. You can feedback the transfuse energy down, but in my experience, you just die. Your tech spending is so high and your economy is so much lower than Zerg's that you just can't hold.
More cannons, better sim city, better micro on voidrays to not lose any to queens and better FF's. With replay i could help better but generally, you want to fight as long as cannons and wall let you, then sac 3rd and defend with more cannons at your natural, you don't need to save 3rd vs all in, so feel free to lose it after letting it tank demage for you, and you're not really behind after that - trust me i lost 3rd tons of times when trying to figure it out, and almost every time it turned out that i was not behind at all and won the game.
Also, you should have good vision of the map with phoenix or hallucinate, depends which way you build, and scout the all in coming by watching zerg gas and no tech, you can then cancel all upgrades that wont finish and all tech buildings that wont pay off in time and add more cannons + sentries.
On November 09 2012 12:24 kcdc wrote: Also, it's really hard to make voids work against infestors and corruptors in late game. Voids are too vulnerable to fungal growth and infested terrans to win games at a high rate. You'd be better off with carriers.
Late game it's actually the easiest and most fun thing once you get used to controlling completly diffirent army. There is plenty of replays where i beat just that. People who make nothing but Corruptors and infestors that nuke with infested terrans. It's all about micro.
Recall from fungal when you are about to lose shields - you should not move out with entire army if you don't have a mothership parked above cannons with recall ready. You have higher burst demage and better regen on shields, that's why you will come out on top in every exchange like that.
Guardian shield + storm on infested terrans/corruptors. If you're at 170+ supply, you should win every time. Show me a replay where you have recall ready, you guardian shield your army and storm everything while still losing your ~15 VR's and ~4 carriers, along with the ~10 templars that can be morphed into archons right after storming...
Carriers die too fast because zerg is able to focus them, they're very supply inefficient compared to VR's, you should only have a few for zoning. They're just as much vunerable to fungal as any other unit - clumping voidrays is a skill issue, not unit issue. As for fighting IT's and corruptors, VR's are just better units.
You can win games with carriers if zerg doesn't scout where did you invest a billion resources, but that's about the only case from my exparience and from what i've seen in pro games when toss tried to do that.
On November 07 2012 13:49 Melaine wrote: Might be decent in the lower bracket/leagues. But Even carriers don't deal with a upgraded infestor/bl/corupter comp
For example Idra encountered several protoss using this exact build on him today while streaming, None of them came close to killing Idra with it, and they were excuted by GM lvl players (GM season has not started yet so they were all top 5 master)
[..]
Not sure if you remeber few seasons ago in GSTL where freaky won vs mass carrier with just pure infestors.
Top 5 masters didn't beat IdrA = build doesn't work?
And no wonder, because mass carrier is wrong way to play, read the guide before posting a comment on it.
I do a slightly different build order with a much faster Mothership that is surprisingly good at holding midgame Zerg pushes with vortex, even if the units are all ground. Gives you a chance to vortex and eliminate key units temporarily, but also gives your zealots an opportunity to close and your archons to do extra damage. But the general idea is the exact same. Protoss needs to metagame shift. I think this should be the future of PvZ.
Just a question, under Adapting the build 3.3 you have a line thru the text "and delay any other upgrades to get storm faster" do you mean this shouldnt be there anymore or you ment to underline it?
On November 10 2012 03:55 MidnightZL wrote: Just a question, under Adapting the build 3.3 you have a line thru the text "and delay any other upgrades to get storm faster" do you mean this shouldnt be there anymore or you ment to underline it?
It's intentionally crossed out, and there is and explaination right under this response. You don't need to rush storm if you scout early enaugh, because of how strong phoenixes are
I have been messing with this style for a while and I cant seem to find a way to hold a infestor ling push before storm is out simply because of no aoe to kill the infested tarrens. While lifting the infestors is a good idea you cant possible have enough nix to lift enough of them to nullify the infested tarren count. If anyone has any clue to how you could hold this push please tell me! Other than that i think this is a AMAZING style and i think it will grow in popularity.
On November 10 2012 05:41 SCAReaSoN wrote: I have been messing with this style for a while and I cant seem to find a way to hold a infestor ling push before storm is out simply because of no aoe to kill the infested tarrens. While lifting the infestors is a good idea you cant possible have enough nix to lift enough of them to nullify the infested tarren count. If anyone has any clue to how you could hold this push please tell me! Other than that i think this is a AMAZING style and i think it will grow in popularity.
When you scout infestors moving out on the map and no roaches build full walloff, and once it dies FF the gaps. The way you hold it, is by killing patiently infested terrans, saying out of fungal range with sentries and keeping all the lings out of the battle with wall/FF's untill you deal with Infested terrans. Guardian shield once the first IT's pop out of eggs.
Also, make sure that you have added enaugh gateways. The way i play this style - regardless of going air or storm first - is making sure that i add more gateways then i need, and in case of attack i always have the money to warp a round of 6-8 zealots before the fight, and another round during it. Even tho, you aren't making many gateway units, keep adding gateways.
If it's an all in you should also scout it in time to complete adding more cannons, as with any other all in
This seems really interesting, and I think I will try to make it more after a bit of time spent optimizing
I used to do something somewhat similar back in gold league where I essentially open phoenix, get a 3rd very early while pressuring, then tech up to collosus while pumping out void rays (adding one more stargate and FB after the third). The difference in this obviously is that we avoid collosus and go HT, which now that I think about it, makes more sense. I just always thought "well, phoenix/void pressure will force hydras, and collosus destroy hydras". But the problem with that strat is that it always left a point of vulnerability before I could get collosus with range out, in that 2 or 3 minutes, if they attack with a bunch of hydras I kind of just die....since voids are awful against hydras. Hopefully this is a bit more stable
Ok so this build kicks ass. Works in hots like a charm. I one gate fe. walled off nat with gate 2 pylon and cyber core with msc defense. This allows you to get stargate up way faster. get the forge with the stargate. Just kicked a zergs ass in a 40 min macro game where i micored it like shit cuz its a totall new unit comp to me. Epic playstyle that leads to epic battles. Two thumbs up on guide, replays, playstyle and creativity on this one. You are the man! you can harrass with voids and teleport home with core so fun. If they go swarm host you LOL cuz msc gives detection and voids mash face. EPIC GUIDE!!!!!!!!
I am in LOVE with this style its amazing!! I just played my first game on ladder with it and absolutely CRUSHED my opponet this style is so amazing and im sure can be fiddled around with to make even better. I didnt do the build order correctly in many scenarios but this goes to show how utterly strong the style really is.(Vs mutas) http://drop.sc/273996
On November 11 2012 16:33 SCAReaSoN wrote: Hmm, what about a infestor timing before templar? Wouldnt that hard counter this build? Not sure. Im trying to find it's weakness :p
Already answered this one on the last page:
When you scout infestors moving out on the map and no roaches build full walloff, and once it dies FF the gaps. The way you hold it, is by killing patiently infested terrans, saying out of fungal range with sentries and keeping all the lings out of the battle with wall/FF's untill you deal with Infested terrans. Guardian shield once the first IT's pop out of eggs.
Also, make sure that you have added enaugh gateways. The way i play this style - regardless of going air or storm first - is making sure that i add more gateways then i need, and in case of attack i always have the money to warp a round of 6-8 zealots before the fight, and another round during it. Even tho, you aren't making many gateway units, keep adding gateways.
If it's an all in you should also scout it in time to complete adding more cannons, as with any other all in
This style is so defensive, that the only "counter" should be expanding all over the place, but unless zerg can mine more than ~60% of the resources on the map before you secure your 4th - you don't care how much money he has anyway.
What about some kind of 3 base push before my wall and cannons on the third are completed(9:00 ca)? Roach/lings or even only speedlings. They force me to delete the nexus and I end up too far behind in economy to do anything.
On November 11 2012 18:46 KingAlphard wrote: What about some kind of 3 base push before my wall and cannons on the third are completed(9:00 ca)? Roach/lings or even only speedlings. They force me to delete the nexus and I end up too far behind in economy to do anything.
You don't end up too far behind. He's dalaying his tech and economy to delay your economy, but not tech, so use your advantage. Park your voidrays above his units untill he goes away and lets you expand. It's completly fine if you expand later if the zerg commits to some units. I've lost my 3rd enaugh times to know that . It may be counter intuitive, but in situations like this, play the game out, and you'll see that it doesn't really change anything if you lose your 3rd or not. That's just how it works out.
Late game it's actually the easiest and most fun thing once you get used to controlling completly diffirent army. There is plenty of replays where i beat just that. People who make nothing but Corruptors and infestors that nuke with infested terrans. It's all about micro.
Recall from fungal when you are about to lose shields - you should not move out with entire army if you don't have a mothership parked above cannons with recall ready. You have higher burst demage and better regen on shields, that's why you will come out on top in every exchange like that.
So that'S your solutions to mass fungal ?? Recall out of it ? That sounds like a pretty bad idea no offense, but the amount of energy you need with your mama ship to pull that off vs the amount energy required to throw down 2-3 fungal because voidray always clump up is very 'cost inificient' . In my oppinion this strat works only because zerg just dont scout the opponent army composition lategame because they are sooo confident with their broodlord/infestor army, and they overproduce broodlords, Because if they just keep corruptors instead of Blords against your composition all they need to do is fungal away and throw a few infested terran everywhere and that gg. Mainly becauseVoid clump up and because templar even if you have lots of them won't be able to kill every Infestors, now yes you can and SHOULD always storm those infested terran twice to kill them off immidiatly before they do any dmg. But the big probleme is that you void in a big engagement wont be charged, and if they are not charged up then corruptor in equal number will win, combine to that fungals and there you have it....
You wont be able to deal with any kind of pressure like most Zergs do. Example Map is Daybreak. If i follow ur Build correctly i want to take a 3rd with 5 Sentrys. Zergs at my level start Building a good amount of units if they detect stargate play and follow it up with huge droning and infestor tech. So 5 Sentrys arent enough to take a safe 3rd. He just needs 5-7 Roaches and 20-30 Lings while he sits on his eco lead. If u did watch Lonestarclash u saw like stephano easy denied Cranks fast 3rd. Stargate openings which including Voidrays always open huge timings with corruptor/infestor. Also with missing aoe dmg u wont be able to deal with a simple infestor/ling counter. Zergs arent losing anything to voidrays anymore (except the overlords which are on the map like 1-2).
Your complete build is made around the Zerg is playing passiv. If the zerg just playing standard timings (50 drones make some units start pressure 3rd) while pressuring infestor/4th then hit next timing before toss gets aoe then hit next timing before Blords rdy to weak the protoss timing push (Stephano killed Crank with this kind of timing) your Build dies.
yeah this build is stupid. A good way to beat this would just go roach hydra nydus max around 12-13 minutes around the third and he'll be able to do nothing with this build. He wont even have colossus or psi storm out to deal with the hydras, and he wont have much gateway units either because of how heavily he is teching...
On November 12 2012 22:49 HellRush wrote: So that'S your solutions to mass fungal ?? Recall out of it ? That sounds like a pretty bad idea no offense, but the amount of energy you need with your mama ship to pull that off vs the amount energy required to throw down 2-3 fungal because voidray always clump up is very 'cost inificient' .
It works. I'm doing it in most of my PvZ's. And feel free to watch replays if you wanna see me beating exactly what you're talking about in the second part of your post.
On November 13 2012 01:18 tarrantius wrote: You wont be able to deal with any kind of pressure like most Zergs do.
I defend all kinds of pushes and attacks with it. Watch the replays.
On November 13 2012 01:45 TheFrankOne wrote: Do you have any thoughts on how this would play out from a 2 gate sentry expand?
Yes, you do a regular stargate fallow up (you would have to find some games of Naniwa/MC/Grubby doing it if you want exact build order) and you can preassure the 3rd if you so desire, or you get a hallucination and go for storm first. 2 gate sentry expand is more tricky, because you have to punish zerg if he's too greedy, by moving out and forcing him to make units, but that's standard sentry expand stuff you should know if you use it.
You can take 3rd almost as fast, because you have your warpgate fast and you can secure your expansion easly.
On November 13 2012 02:54 Kisezik wrote: A good way to beat this would just go roach hydra nydus max around 12-13 minutes around the third and he'll be able to do nothing with this build. He wont even have colossus or psi storm out to deal with the hydras, and he wont have much gateway units either because of how heavily he is teching...
Try that next time you meet me on the ladder. Good luck tho, cuz i will have storm in time
(Hi) don't take this offensively, because it's just an observation, but, to start; my account is currently in silver, was in gold a few times(mentioning this because some people call out, and don't take players in lesser leagues, seriously, but in this case, hearing it from such an observer, it can give more emphasis, on the obvious holes in the build/strat. Though, to be fair, the zerg user probably did a good job of responding and massing those roaches. I saw the replay 265846. It was either daybreak or cloud kingdom(they look the same)I don't know if anyone else watched and commented what I'm about to point out, which is kind of obvious, though, I think, if we know the game enough, but, in that game, when he had a huge army of roaches on your third, he ran from a pair of voidrays. which he didn't have to, and he could've just destroyed your entire third base,(including the other surrounded structures), after forcing storms, and dodging. Actually, what lost him the game, was that he ran, and let you build up voidrays, and in general, which he wouldn't have been able to deal with, his large roach army becoming useless, and occupying supply that would be corrupters or something, and game was kind of over for you at that point, when he shouldn't have ran. I'm just assuming, from reading the intro, and all, that you use this build/strategy confidently, but it won't work much. Just adding this, to further affirm/confirm that this isn't viable/strong/safe, adding along with whoever else noticed and commented. This way you don't have to continue thinking that this is actually going to work. I have, in the past, said things without knowledge, and ended up looking like a fool, in advice, and input, but I'm confident that people would agree. But I don't disagree with teching to storms mid-game, just not that fashion. Maybe you could say that the specific strat/build executed on that specific game was just a general outline of how to open, but probably not assuring to see that replay as support for this build/opening/progression. More ramifications: Then again, I you did have a decent amount of sentries to force-trap roaches to take optimal storm damage, but I saw none of that, so, yea, in scenario with you trapping his roaches all the time and storming, that's great. Him roach dropping quickly in response to seeing sentry/ht/cannon is easily accessible, so, still not really dangerous. I,d,k. I guess the early voidrays is what make's it not as great as the opening can be. If it were me, I would choose stalkers. If he wants to battle your stalkers, he has to make a decision of whether to get stormed and attack your stalkers or run, and get anti-kite attack your stalkers. Gas is simply too much for that one unit at a time, and your reproduction time for voidrays/stargate. I think robo is necessary and teching to storms is the best idea against zerg, along with mothership, but the voidray thing, I think that's a later stage appearance, if you even need it. ( kind of feels silly talking about these things, when hots would come out soon )
(Hi) don't take this offensively, because it's just an observation, but, to start; my account is currently in silver, was in gold a few times(mentioning this because some people call out, and don't take players in lesser leagues, seriously, but in this case, hearing it from such an observer, it can give more emphasis, on the obvious holes in the build/strat. Though, to be fair, the zerg user probably did a good job of responding and massing those roaches. I saw the replay 265846. It was either daybreak or cloud kingdom(they look the same)I don't know if anyone else watched and commented what I'm about to point out, which is kind of obvious, though, I think, if we know the game enough, but, in that game, when he had a huge army of roaches on your third, he ran from a pair of voidrays. which he didn't have to, and he could've just destroyed your entire third base,(including the other surrounded structures), after forcing storms, and dodging. Actually, what lost him the game, was that he ran, and let you build up voidrays, and in general, which he wouldn't have been able to deal with, his large roach army becoming useless, and occupying supply that would be corrupters or something, and game was kind of over for you at that point, when he shouldn't have ran. I'm just assuming, from reading the intro, and all, that you use this build/strategy confidently, but it won't work much. Just adding this, to further affirm/confirm that this isn't viable/strong/safe, adding along with whoever else noticed and commented. This way you don't have to continue thinking that this is actually going to work. I have, in the past, said things without knowledge, and ended up looking like a fool, in advice, and input, but I'm confident that people would agree. But I don't disagree with teching to storms mid-game, just not that fashion. Maybe you could say that the specific strat/build executed on that specific game was just a general outline of how to open, but probably not assuring to see that replay as support for this build/opening/progression. More ramifications: Then again, I you did have a decent amount of sentries to force-trap roaches to take optimal storm damage, but I saw none of that, so, yea, in scenario with you trapping his roaches all the time and storming, that's great. Him roach dropping quickly in response to seeing sentry/ht/cannon is easily accessible, so, still not really dangerous. I,d,k. I guess the early voidrays is what make's it not as great as the opening can be. If it were me, I would choose stalkers. If he wants to battle your stalkers, he has to make a decision of whether to get stormed and attack your stalkers or run, and get anti-kite attack your stalkers. Gas is simply too much for that one unit at a time, and your reproduction time for voidrays/stargate. I think robo is necessary and teching to storms is the best idea against zerg, along with mothership, but the voidray thing, I think that's a later stage appearance, if you even need it. ( kind of feels silly talking about these things, when hots would come out soon )
Nice troll, are you some sort of zerg ambassador, trying to end the revolution before it even starts?
(Hi) don't take this offensively, because it's just an observation, but, to start; my account is currently in silver, was in gold a few times(mentioning this because some people call out, and don't take players in lesser leagues, seriously, but in this case, hearing it from such an observer, it can give more emphasis, on the obvious holes in the build/strat. Though, to be fair, the zerg user probably did a good job of responding and massing those roaches. I saw the replay 265846. It was either daybreak or cloud kingdom(they look the same)I don't know if anyone else watched and commented what I'm about to point out, which is kind of obvious, though, I think, if we know the game enough, but, in that game, when he had a huge army of roaches on your third, he ran from a pair of voidrays. which he didn't have to, and he could've just destroyed your entire third base,(including the other surrounded structures), after forcing storms, and dodging. Actually, what lost him the game, was that he ran, and let you build up voidrays, and in general, which he wouldn't have been able to deal with, his large roach army becoming useless, and occupying supply that would be corrupters or something, and game was kind of over for you at that point, when he shouldn't have ran. I'm just assuming, from reading the intro, and all, that you use this build/strategy confidently, but it won't work much. Just adding this, to further affirm/confirm that this isn't viable/strong/safe, adding along with whoever else noticed and commented. This way you don't have to continue thinking that this is actually going to work. I have, in the past, said things without knowledge, and ended up looking like a fool, in advice, and input, but I'm confident that people would agree. But I don't disagree with teching to storms mid-game, just not that fashion. Maybe you could say that the specific strat/build executed on that specific game was just a general outline of how to open, but probably not assuring to see that replay as support for this build/opening/progression. More ramifications: Then again, I you did have a decent amount of sentries to force-trap roaches to take optimal storm damage, but I saw none of that, so, yea, in scenario with you trapping his roaches all the time and storming, that's great. Him roach dropping quickly in response to seeing sentry/ht/cannon is easily accessible, so, still not really dangerous. I,d,k. I guess the early voidrays is what make's it not as great as the opening can be. If it were me, I would choose stalkers. If he wants to battle your stalkers, he has to make a decision of whether to get stormed and attack your stalkers or run, and get anti-kite attack your stalkers. Gas is simply too much for that one unit at a time, and your reproduction time for voidrays/stargate. I think robo is necessary and teching to storms is the best idea against zerg, along with mothership, but the voidray thing, I think that's a later stage appearance, if you even need it. ( kind of feels silly talking about these things, when hots would come out soon )
I hope you are trolling, otherwise your excessive use of commas and mass of text format are just painful on the eyes. In addition none of your points really hold up with the exception of the notion of a roach drop. I actually think Zerg doing multiple drops at different places while pressuring the 3rd and ramp to natural would be the correct response to this style. The multiple small armies from Z would make storm far less useful and since the Stargates were pretty late this game (not at all early like you mention) there would be no real way to deny the drops.
To OP: this looks like a pretty cool/interesting style I'll have to look into at some point. In addition to the situation I described above I wonder how well this style would do vs roaches with burrow? The regen while burrowed seems like it would nullify the damage from storms, least till the voids come out to chase the roaches off. Otherwise I like the notion of this mass storm and void style. Will def have to check out more of your replays.
Asmodeusx November 13 2012 06:27. Posts 231 PM Profile Blog Report Quote # On November 13 2012 06:12 d[s]c wrote: + Show Spoiler +
Nice troll, are you some sort of zerg ambassador, trying to end the revolution before it even starts?
My comment wasn't at all a "troll". just watch that specific replay from 12:00 ~15:00. I played random. Not zerg bias. But I know that zerg is op right now, which is why I would play zerg. Protoss is weak. This thread is evidence to that. I just switch to the OP race.
It's obvious, but I think everyone has had moments of not getting the obvious, like in games. I've had long streaks. Showing what there is to get. He was able to max roaches, had 8 hatches, he just happened to be lazy about gassing up, so he only messed up macro-wise, had he simply put his gases up, he would've been able to remax roach constantly, or get a lot of infestors quickly. When he was "attempting" to snipe your third's gates and whatnot, he was irrationally scared of getting attacked, so instead of using all his roaches to actually hit buildings, he just used the front 6 or 8 roaches and ran back, when he could've just came forward and one shotted each building, instead he kept running back and forth, doing nothing, for about 2 minutes with all those roaches, and they all had majority of their hp, also, he could've just ran to the other entrance, your hts are slow, bust open the weaker opening, and ran into your base, you only had 7 hts the whole time, already used like 6 storms, had enough for maybe 4 more at most, at one point. Your composition was like 7 zealots, 3 sentries, 7 hts for like 4 minutes. His roaches were simply idle. I mention that he was able to remax roach constantly, regardless of this zerg player not having actual gas and geysers, because he should've had more gases up, but just didn't do it out of forgetfulness/mechanics. In this specific game, this specific player forgot, that's all, aside from this, all other zerg players would have the gas.
[spoiler]https://www.box.com/s/pm2q0aetsfov8j6wyein[/spoiler] 9screen shots, just to add visual. starting 0-A-H-Z
On November 13 2012 01:18 tarrantius wrote: You wont be able to deal with any kind of pressure like most Zergs do. Example Map is Daybreak. If i follow ur Build correctly i want to take a 3rd with 5 Sentrys. Zergs at my level start Building a good amount of units if they detect stargate play and follow it up with huge droning and infestor tech. So 5 Sentrys arent enough to take a safe 3rd. He just needs 5-7 Roaches and 20-30 Lings while he sits on his eco lead. If u did watch Lonestarclash u saw like stephano easy denied Cranks fast 3rd. Stargate openings which including Voidrays always open huge timings with corruptor/infestor. Also with missing aoe dmg u wont be able to deal with a simple infestor/ling counter. Zergs arent losing anything to voidrays anymore (except the overlords which are on the map like 1-2).
Your complete build is made around the Zerg is playing passiv. If the zerg just playing standard timings (50 drones make some units start pressure 3rd) while pressuring infestor/4th then hit next timing before toss gets aoe then hit next timing before Blords rdy to weak the protoss timing push (Stephano killed Crank with this kind of timing) your Build dies.
IF If if if if if if. Lets see some replays off this style dying to Zerg 3 base pressure. Crank wasn't using this style anyway, he went colossus, and got surrounded badly while taking the open 4th in the centre of daybreak. VR+Storm+zealot/sentry is the comp we would have while taking a 4th. Crank was playing with Stalker/Colossus. And we aren't talking a few voids, were talking 8 of them by 15:00 with +2 air weaps on the way and +2 shields. Its like you're not even reading all the testimonies of this composition destroying anything even with corrupters and infestors, and trying for yourself and posting replays. Smells like more rhetoric from the pessimistic state of PvZ macro play in the pro scene.
On November 13 2012 01:18 tarrantius wrote: You wont be able to deal with any kind of pressure like most Zergs do.
I defend all kinds of pushes and attacks with it. Watch the replays.
I think this point would be better made if, in your 12-minute roach max replay, Asmodeus, you built a stargate before 11 minutes, as your build suggests?
-Cross (I'm not a disbeliever, but would enjoy an example of somebody following your build and holding that off.)
On November 13 2012 01:18 tarrantius wrote: You wont be able to deal with any kind of pressure like most Zergs do.
I defend all kinds of pushes and attacks with it. Watch the replays.
I think this point would be better made if, in your 12-minute roach max replay, Asmodeus, you built a stargate before 11 minutes, as your build suggests?
-Cross (I'm not a disbeliever, but would enjoy an example of somebody following your build and holding that off.)
1. This is not a build order guide.
2. If you don't realize that any build can hold 12 min roach max, you just need units and FF's, then it's not for you.
Let this thread die already I don't want to many zs finding out about this epic play style keep talking about it and we are going to have to go back to two base timmings
En taro Adun, Asmodeus. Your strategy against the Swarm intrigues me. I must inquire, how do you intend to adjust it to deal with the Swarm Host come March 2013?
I was thinking that you wouldn't necessarily need to include an earlier Robotics Facility but could instead utilize the Oracle either to snipe the Infestation Pit to buy time for the observer, or you may be able to use the Oracle's vision ability ( not sure what its called ) directly on the Swarm Host before they burrow, and then pluck them up with Phoenix.
However, if a group of early Swarm Hosts does manage to burrow close enough to your base, I see this strategy having a bit of difficulty dealing with it.
What are your thoughts?
As far as Wings of Liberty is concerned, I like this Strategy because it plays well against the current meta of ZvP lategame Infestor-Broodlord, but I dislike it because of the discomfort I feel having absolutely no units until after begining a Stargate. The fear of a competent Zerg identifying the playstyle and going for a baneling speedling bust or a Nydus attack is too stressful for me. Even if the Phoenix scouts either of these, I'm unsure if there is really enough time to respond in a way that can mitigate the damage.
I keep getting easy wins in lategame but sucking hard before 15 min. Barely 50% winrate overall. This is a replay http://drop.sc/276453 he kept the pressure since 9th minute, I was able to hold my third but still I lost soon later. Ok, I lost about 20 probes in a silly way while holding the main push but if I could play better I would play with better opponents and it wouldn't change.
I thought that if, instead of going for so much tech early on, you would just start with archons/storms but getting +1 air weapons and shield upgrades and building 2/3 stargates at ~11 minute? After all, it seems like void rays are weak against everything in the early/mid game whereas storms/archons are safe against everything. What do you think? EDIT: Ok I've tried and I found out that stargate opening is much safer because you can scout everything and get map control+harass.
On November 17 2012 08:29 TofuSurprise wrote: En taro Adun, Asmodeus. Your strategy against the Swarm intrigues me. I must inquire, how do you intend to adjust it to deal with the Swarm Host come March 2013? [...] As far as Wings of Liberty is concerned, I like this Strategy because it plays well against the current meta of ZvP lategame Infestor-Broodlord, but I dislike it because of the discomfort I feel having absolutely no units until after begining a Stargate. The fear of a competent Zerg identifying the playstyle and going for a baneling speedling bust or a Nydus attack is too stressful for me. Even if the Phoenix scouts either of these, I'm unsure if there is really enough time to respond in a way that can mitigate the damage.
1. I'm not up to date with HotS patches, but from what i've seen this expansion is designed to improve this style. An oracle for scouting early instead of phoenix if you don't plan on making more than 1 phoenix, Time warp + storm can be sick. Getting enaugh Tempest to 1 shot infestors will be also great, and earlier mass recall will allow you to harass with vr's + oracle and snipe peripherial bases.
2. I always scout for 3rd hatch before 5 min mark, if it's not there - chrono sentries and add 1-2 cannons, while getting vision of entire map and slowly getting voidray out. Baneling bust, nydus and 1-2 base roach/ling rushes are easy to defend, you just have to react in time. Nydus if fun to play against and improves your minimap awareness!
On November 18 2012 04:19 KingAlphard wrote: This is a replay http://drop.sc/276453 he kept the pressure since 9th minute, I was able to hold my third but still I lost soon later. [...] After all, it seems like void rays are weak against everything in the early/mid game whereas storms/archons are safe against everything. What do you think?
Watched the replay, at 10 min into the game you're missing ~12 probes and you haven't scouted zerg's tech at all. I could stop watching right at this time, because there are many diffirent scenarios where you auto lose if you make those mistakes.
FF roaches on ramp and dalay him untill he breacks rocks, while building wall there, you need better sim city and more cannons at 2 spots with sentries at each point. While the roaches are bumping their heads against FF's and walls VR's would kill enaugh of them.
Your loss had nothing to do with your build - 100% execution that can be easly improved.
So there will be a new test map with changes to fungal (not affecting psionic units, projectile).
I'm wondering if anyone has played with a gate-expo opening with this style, and if so, can we stuff in an early blink play to delay while building up VR off 1 gate (rather than 2-3) and expanding?
For reference: exactly 4 minutes from start of lair until earliest infestors pop
Also Creator just got roflstomped trying to go air vs Zerg (So many infestors. SO MANY). Similar to this style but too many carriers, ineffective harass with mineral bank, waay behind since mid game and didn't abuse mothership recall/cannon farm. Is this style still viable in a progame?
In ZvP I seem to have trouble with countering mass void rays mass carriers. I could try corrupters for the void rays and mutas for the carriers. But the units seem really hard to counter. Especially when they have like 5 carriers and 15 void rays...any help would be appreciated.
On November 20 2012 18:12 Jintoss wrote: So there will be a new test map with changes to fungal (not affecting psionic units, projectile).
I'm wondering if anyone has played with a gate-expo opening with this style, and if so, can we stuff in an early blink play to delay while building up VR off 1 gate (rather than 2-3) and expanding?
For reference: exactly 4 minutes from start of lair until earliest infestors pop
Also Creator just got roflstomped trying to go air vs Zerg (So many infestors. SO MANY). Similar to this style but too many carriers, ineffective harass with mineral bank, waay behind since mid game and didn't abuse mothership recall/cannon farm. Is this style still viable in a progame?
1. I see no reason why you would do a blink preassure into this style, but feel free to try it and tell us how it went. 2. Creator played perfect PvZ up to the point where he fucked up micro. Getting your Mothership neuraled when you have like 10 units that can outrange it and 1 shot infestors (carriers and colossi) is a big mistake that cost him the game. On top of that him, keeping his army in that unconfortable position, without recall was questionable.
On November 20 2012 20:59 cdman444 wrote: In ZvP I seem to have trouble with countering mass void rays mass carriers. I could try corrupters for the void rays and mutas for the carriers. But the units seem really hard to counter. Especially when they have like 5 carriers and 15 void rays...any help would be appreciated.
Make a [H] thread with replays, otherwise all i can say is - micro your infestors and corruptors better, and never make mutas to fight it. The way zerg should fight vs it, is to abuse the mobility, because 99% protoss players suck at sim city and won't defend it, they will also fail at scouting for drops. Also, keep making absurd numbers of spores and some spines after you max out (absurd = 40+). You will have time for that if he want's to max out on voidrays, cuz they're too expensive for how much supply they require.
On November 20 2012 20:59 cdman444 wrote: In ZvP I seem to have trouble with countering mass void rays mass carriers. I could try corrupters for the void rays and mutas for the carriers. But the units seem really hard to counter. Especially when they have like 5 carriers and 15 void rays...any help would be appreciated.
Thin his fleet out before he gets 5 carriers and 15 voids.