|
Let me preface this by saying - this is not intended to be balance whine. I don't perceive the ZvP matchup to be imbalanced in either race's favor. My understanding is that it is slightly Zerg-favored on the EU ladder, and slightly Protoss-favored on the Korean ladder. The goal of the topic is just to discuss an alternate playstyle for Zerg that may be more effective. Bear in mind that I don't play at a super high level - mid diamond to low masters - so I don't claim to be an authoritative figure on the subject.
So I want to start by outlining a number of presuppositions that I take to be true in this matchup. These aren't all meant to be revelations; some of them are pretty obvious, but they're intended to explain why the matchup is the way it is - and where we might have gotten it wrong. I wanted to be rigorous about these so that if anyone views them as incorrect, they can be called out easily, and have it be clear where the disagreement lies.
Forge fast expand is the best Protoss opener in the matchup. Six months to a year ago, Protoss had not figured out how to deal with one or low-eco-two-base aggression from Zerg designed to counter the FFE: Roach-ling attacks, baneling busts, 6-pools, etc. Thus, in an attempt to play safe against these attacks, many Protoss used gate-first openings instead of the FFE. Now, however, it has been demonstrated that a FFE build, competently executed and with sufficient scouting, can fend any of these attacks and come out ahead. Therefore, the FFE dominates all other Protoss openings.
Once the FFE is scouted, the Zerg's options are to go for two or three base play. One-hatch aggression, as I mentioned, is not a strong option against the FFE. Also, between the FFE cannon walloff and sentries, there is nothing that the Zerg can produce on tier 1 that can cost-efficiently attack into the Protoss. Thus, the options are to either go for some Lair tech on two bases, or to try to outmatch the Protoss economically with a three hatchery style.
Conventional two-base Zerg aggression looks increasingly obsolete. When the matchup was in its nascent stage, a number of Lair-based 2-hatch styles developed to put the game in the Zerg's ballpark. These included Nydus Hydralisks, Hydra creep pushes with overlords, 2-hatch Muta, and ling-infestor timing attacks. These pushes have all but vanished from both the ladder and progaming scene, for the simple reason that they didn't turn out to be very good pushes. They weren't hitting the right timings, and weren't nearly as hard to defend as the equivalent Protoss 2-base all-in.
Therefore, three-hatch play has become the default response to an FFE in ZvP. Since it looks like the Zerg can't effectively punish the Protoss on either one or two bases, three-hatch play looks like the best way to go. The Zerg's gameplan is now to play reactively, eco up to 60 drones or more while getting Lair tech, and fend any aggression using Roaches and Zerglings, eventually transitioning to higher tech.
3-hatch Zerg openings are very good at denying an early third from the Protoss. The aggressive build pioneered by Stephano - the 12-mintue Roach max - is extremely effective at punishing (or outright killing) a Protoss that attempts to continue to play economically off of their FFE by grabbing an early third. Many Protoss feel that they are incapable of defending a third Nexus against the sheer quantity of Roaches the Zerg is capable of producing off of three bases. That's not to say that there aren't any builds in the metagame capable of securing a quick Protoss third, but they are sufficiently difficult to execute such that they are not the norm.
Therefore, Protoss tend toward attacks off of two bases that hit before the 3-hatch Zerg can get aggressive. This is the face of the current ZvP metagame - 2-base Protoss timing attacks against 3-hatch Zerg defense - and it's not one that everyone is terribly happy about. It's not that taking a third against Z is impossible, but it is quite hard to do safely unless you get aggressive first and put the game in your ballpark.
The current Zerg style of playing against these attacks is a razor-thin defense. Typically, the Zerg will scout the Protoss's tech in the main and gases at the natural between 6:30 and 7:15. This will inform how many drones they're allowed to produce from that point onward. As a rule of thumb, it's generally around 60 - more if the Protoss is going for a 4-gas tech-heavy attack, less if they're going for a 2-gas all-in gateway attack. Regardless, the modus operandi is to produce as many drones as possible and only start producing units right before the attack hits.
These attacks are difficult for the Zerg to defend with their current playstyle. There are a number of reasons for this. First, the suite of attacks that the Protoss can choose from is diverse enough that it is sometimes difficult to scout and react accordingly. There are a huge number of variations, listed in order of perceived popularity:
* Immortal/sentry timing attacks * 7-gate +2 blink stalker timings, with or without warp prisms * 6, 7, or 8 gateway timings, with or without warp prisms * Sentry/warp prism attacks that force field the Zerg's ramp * Mixed gateway/stargate attacks * Double stargate all-ins * Colossus timing attacks
all of which can spiral out of control if not reacted to correctly. These attacks are also varying degrees of all-in. A cutthroat 6-gate that stops below 40 probes is certainly all-in, but a Protoss that continues to build probes and does a delayed timing with immortals and sentries can still viably secure a third, either before or after the push. Therefore, even if their push doesn't outright kill the Zerg, the Protoss can frequently transition to the next phase of the game without falling behind.
The goal of the Zerg in this situation is to defend the push with a higher drone count and end up ahead. From there, they can start building infestors, mutalisks and/or hive tech, and break the Protoss with superior economy and tech. Which brings us to the last and possibly most contentious point...
This may be the ostensible goal of the Zerg, but it isn't happening often enough. If we examine what these defenses tend to look like, both on the ladder and at the pro level, they don't often look like a game state that I want to play for deliberately. Drones are pulled, hatcheries are lost, spine crawlers are thrown up panickedly between warp-in cycles, queens die left and right. Even at the highest level of play, Zerg are sometimes just stomped by a two-base all-in without being able to put up much resistance. And even if the push is eventually fended, it's often done so at such a high cost in lost drones and hatcheries that the Zerg has not achieved his goal of coming out ahead by defending.
I understand that this last point is something that, if one were to disagree with it, could only be settled by looking at a ton of different replays - something I don't have the time or inclination to do right now. If your experience on the effectivenss of Zerg defenses in ZvP differs, then there's not much else to say. But this has, at least, been my experience both on the ladder and watching pro replays.
So where does that leave us?
It's my belief that the current Zerg style of opening three hatch and defending off of ~60 drones is wrong-headed. What I want to question is whether the assumption that the Zerg can take three hatcheries, drone to 60, get Lair and still fend all two-base attacks from the Protoss is dogmatic and greedy. It's been my experience that this form of opening is not robust enough at defending against Protoss aggression.
What is the alternative? As I stated, I don't think that two-base aggression from the Zerg is an attractive alternative. It might catch an opponent off-guard in one set of a Bo3, but it isn't a place the metagame is going to stabilize at. However, there are a number of safer openers that I'd like to see players experiment with:
* Two base defense with an in-base macro hatch, taking your third after the push is defended * Three hatch defense, stopping drones at or around 44 and massing speedlings in advance of the attack, droning to ~70 after the push is defended
Why are these openings more attractive? First, let's talk about the drawback of these openings. In the hypothetical best case scenario of the three hatch 60 drone opener, if you defend without losing drones or hatcheries, you will end up more ahead than you do if you defend with either of these openings. This is to be expected; it's a greedier opener, if you get away with it you will be more ahead.
But how many more two-base attacks are you losing to by going for this opening? One thing I've noticed after defending many Protoss 2-base attacks is that they're extremely tempo oriented. The force they move out with initially is not that scary, but because of how many gateways they build it looks really daunting after the first warpin. However, because the Zerg is always trying to squeeze in as many drones as they can before the attack hits, they very rarely have the opportunity to attack that weak initial force.
Once the first warpin hits, the tempo is in the Protoss's favor. Even if the Zerg has a superior economy and is producing more total army value of units, the fact that the Protoss had more units at the start makes every phase of the engagement more cost-efficient for them. However, if that weak initial force is greeted by a huge mass of speedlings before the first warpin, this tempo shift never occurs. The attack is either crushed outright, or the Protoss cuts his losses and goes home. The two-base defense into third is particularly easy to defend, because you can spread creep further in one direction, and only need spine crawlers to cover one point on the map.
But will the Zerg really come out ahead in this scenario? They'll have so few drones! That's what needs to be theorycrafted and tested in-game, but I think they might. Once the first timing of the Protoss is thwarted, the Zerg will have a considerable window to drone up and take their third if they haven't already. The large number of units they massed is also likely to be able to deny any third the Protoss tries to take. Thus, the goal of these openers is to
* take your economic lead after the first Protoss push, rather than before. * structure your drone production the same way as other races - producing a mix of drones and units simultaneously, rather than operating bimodally (building all drones and then all units)
At the very least, I think this opener is more likely to defend 2-base all-ins. Where the matchup goes from there is an unexplored point in the metagame that is worthy of investigation.
Anyways - that's pretty much the gist of it. I don't have replays to share, as I don't think I'd be executing them at a high enough level for them to be persuasive. I just posted this because I think examining the logic and theory behind ZvP openers is pretty interesting. Thoughts?
|
Pretty good analysis... I would love for top zergs to attemps what is described in that OP.
As a protoss player, this kind of reaction could be really good and force the protoss to be less greedy and way more on the defensive since a 2 base zerg is risky to push against...
|
I feel like this post is a couple of months late. I'd argue that the standard of ZvP right now is a 4 base zerg vs 3 base protoss. Protoss has lately been getting much more comfortable against the 11 minute roach attacks, which makes it unattractive for zerg to even attempt them, as they could more comfortably get into late game with an earlier fourth and starting infestor/muta. However, it's almost come full circle in that the protoss now tries to hit its heavy mid-late game timing of 15 minutes right before brood lords are finished. Generally, though, I feel that the matchup is exploring the late game a lot heavier, as the only two 2 base all ins that seem to work are the immortal sentry all in, and the 1 gas 8 gate, but both have become fairly straightforward to handle if scouting is done correctly.
Edit: however, similar to how Stephano gets a 17 gas against terran, i feel getting an early speed would certainly help cut a lot of early game woes out. Simply denying any hidden probe with speedlings stops a lot of pushes before they can begin. But I do feel that a Protoss going for an early third would be happy to see a Zerg cutting drones earlier on, knowing that he will still be able to hold his third and be in even better shape.
|
And if he doesn't attack?
I've just wasted a huge amount of minerals on lings that can do zero damage to a 2base protoss and I'm not even sure can deny a third without roach support. Protoss takes a third while being economaclly even or ahead and goes into the late game with a huge smile on his face.
|
On August 06 2012 08:32 IcemanAsi wrote: And if he doesn't attack?
I've just wasted a huge amount of minerals on lings that can do zero damage to a 2base protoss and I'm not even sure can deny a third without roach support. Protoss takes a third while being economaclly even or ahead and goes into the late game with a huge smile on his face.
I feel like this is the big problem that cutting drones heavily will face. The reason the stephano timing was so tough was that it was optimized as far as drone count goes to hit with as many roaches as is physically possible at such an early timing. With modern protoss early third base builds being able to hold such a timing, de-optimizing a timing will just make it easier on the protoss.
|
United States8476 Posts
This is well-thought out. However, I'd like to point out a few holes. You provide a few timing attacks, but don't consider that every timing attack has a different response. That is, with a traditional roach/ling opening, each timing not only requires a specific unit response, but a different time to cut drones if you're using a standard 3 hatch play:
- Immortal/sentry timing attacks-hits around 10:20, cut drones around 60 or slightly below
- 7-gate +2 blink stalker timings, with or without warp prisms-can hit at 9:30, cut drones 50-60 depending on version
- 6, 7, or 8 gateway timings, with or without warp prisms-hits much earlier than others, around 8:00, cut around 40ish drones
- Sentry/warp prism attacks that force field the Zerg's ramp-more dependent on unit positioning/initial units rather than drone cutting
- Mixed gateway/stargate attacks-cut at 60+ drones
- Double stargate all-ins-depends more on spore/queen preparedness
- Colossus timing attacks-hits at 12:00 at earliest, sometimes much later
Basically, there is no catchall cut at 40 drones and mass speedlings response as you suggest.
Another problem is the both your suggestions, stay on 2 base, 3 hatch, and cut drones at 40 for speedlings put you behind in economy to the Protoss. In addition, there's not a reliable way to tell if your opponent is expanding or all-in-ing until lair, and even then it's tricky. Immortal expands and immortal all-ins look very similar. Thus, you will be blind sacrificing economy versus even an expanding Protoss who threatens a push.
That being said, there are many players, such as Nestea and Dimaga who do indeed get a few speedlings to fend off early gateway pressure by dying pylons and to deny extremely fast 3rd bases from Protoss, but this, by itself, is not the golden solution that defends all all-ins.
I'm fairly certain that this thread mostly comes from the frustration of defending immortal-sentry all-ins. Perhaps focus on dealing with that first as an individual all-in in isolation before trying to cover all of them.
|
The problem is that if the protoss gets an observer out he will see that you're either not droning up, or not taking your third. His response either way will be to not attack - putting the zerg behind.
|
While this seems to be a good idea to catch you opponent off-guard, especially if you're familiar with their style, I do not think this is a superior build. While the "razor-thin defenses" can, by definition, spiral out of control and can easily lose you the game if you screw up, this isn't good enough reason to abandon them. If an opening is only good if you can execute it almost perfectly, you do not abandon it for a more forgiving but economically worse opening, but instead you learn to execute it perfectly.
|
Instead of sacrificing economy for units early on, what about sacrificing it for faster tech? For example, roaches are much better against immortal/sentry armies with lair tech upgrades (burrow, tunneling claws). That way, instead of relying on delaying the push until you get a 200/200 army, you can kill it with a smaller but better army. Also ling/infestor crushes any sort of pre-colossus push handily. And if protoss doesn't attack, it's not like the tech is wasted, and you're also not stuck with 200 food of bad units later on.
If we do something like, double gas at 5 minutes instead of 6 minutes, and get lair quickly. Only get 2 injecting queens instead of 3 since we won't have the money to use all 3.
Also, this is probably crazy, but queens do the same DPS as roaches, have +1 range, and also are not considered armored units (no bonus damage from immortals/stalkers). They also have transfuse. Is it feasible to mass queens as a primary fighting unit?
|
In this match up a lot of the pushes don't have a lot of zealots because they are centered around stalkers, sentries, and immortals because roaches can easily kite and rape zealots and since the common day build is 3 hatch 200/200 by 12 min mark with roaches. So what i propose is that we go back to the destiny style where we go ling infestor with early upgrades for the lings. If you build both your gases 30 seconds early and then go to immediately lair and then to infestation pit you can probably get out infestors in time if you use some lings to threaten a counter attack. Once they see infestors they will have to respond in 2 ways, all in with colossus or high templar, or expand. If you don't see an expand, Neural parasite VS colossus is very strong. If you see a expand you already have lair and upgrades, so you can go to hive and then to very quick brood lords. Since you have the early investors, if he went up to 3 base and is going to do a timing push, you have lings to counter with, fungals to buy time, and infested terran back stabs to buy time.
|
On August 06 2012 12:28 Andybendy wrote: In this match up a lot of the pushes don't have a lot of zealots because they are centered around stalkers, sentries, and immortals because roaches can easily kite and rape zealots and since the common day build is 3 hatch 200/200 by 12 min mark with roaches. So what i propose is that we go back to the destiny style where we go ling infestor with early upgrades for the lings. If you build both your gases 30 seconds early and then go to immediately lair and then to infestation pit you can probably get out infestors in time if you use some lings to threaten a counter attack. Once they see infestors they will have to respond in 2 ways, all in with colossus or high templar, or expand. If you don't see an expand, Neural parasite VS colossus is very strong. If you see a expand you already have lair and upgrades, so you can go to hive and then to very quick brood lords. Since you have the early investors, if he went up to 3 base and is going to do a timing push, you have lings to counter with, fungals to buy time, and infested terran back stabs to buy time.
Ling/Infestor was standard ZvP when Neural Parasite was still 9 range. With the 7 range it has now, you can't really NP colossus without the infestor dying which is why the style died off.
|
On August 06 2012 10:44 quarkral wrote: Also, this is probably crazy, but queens do the same DPS as roaches, have +1 range, and also are not considered armored units (no bonus damage from immortals/stalkers). They also have transfuse. Is it feasible to mass queens as a primary fighting unit?
Queens are slower and bigger, it would be alot harder to get a good concave around any army. not to mention i think the queen attack is split into two shots? Tell me if im wrong but doesnt the protoss armor get x2 on their attacks?
it would also be super hard to max out on queens due to their terran-style building rather than from larva.
edit: mass queen's speed would be fixed by the mass creep. Queen @ liquipedia: (i was right about armor/2x shot) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Queen
|
The entire premise of this is flawed because Protoss players can hold a fast third, even against a Stephano style 11:00 max push.
|
Protoss almost never get armor, they mostly go for +3 attack and get at most +1 armor early on. Maxing out on solely queens is not possible, true, but you could get a decent number of them, like 6-9 when P does the 2 base immortal/sentry push. Then use their superior range and survivability to target and kill sentries. They have the same range as sentries, so P can't really do anything funny with them, plus with mass transfuse they can easily outlast one round of force fields.
Defending the roach max thing with a robo expand relies entirely on force fields. What if you get overlord drop,and just drop roaches right on top of his army at 12 minutes? Sure you might lose 2 overlords of roaches in the process, but the remaining should clean up his army. Protoss armies at 12 minutes after a fast third are tiny......
|
On August 06 2012 13:30 quarkral wrote: ...Protoss almost never get armor...
default armor of stalker, zealot and immortal is 1.
roach dmg: 1x16(+2) queen dmg: 2x4(+1)
Making queens dmg 6 rather than 8 per hit 20% reduction in dmg. Roaches dmg however goes from 16 to 15. not as great a reduction
edit: broken formatting. ALSO, i remember someone made a sick spreadsheet with the decreases in DPS for each upgrade for each unit in each race (each is a sick word)
|
On August 06 2012 13:15 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: The entire premise of this is flawed because Protoss players can hold a fast third, even against a Stephano style 11:00 max push. I have to agree with this.
Ok you mentioned crushing early thirds with the stephano 10:30 roach max timing. I know the conclusion coming from the kcdc thread, one of the top ways to stop that is to take your third early with a combination of gateway wall offs and a few well placed cannons. I take mine around 730 and have no trouble stopping the attack that comes at 1030.
While it would be tricky to defend my third against a bunch of slings, i would just scout that my opponent hasn't taken a third himself and just continue to play two base knowing that im already ahead of my opponent.
On August 06 2012 13:30 quarkral wrote: Protoss almost never get armor, they mostly go for +3 attack and get at most +1 armor early on. Maxing out on solely queens is not possible, true, but you could get a decent number of them, like 6-9 when P does the 2 base immortal/sentry push. Then use their superior range and survivability to target and kill sentries. They have the same range as sentries, so P can't really do anything funny with them, plus with mass transfuse they can easily outlast one round of force fields.
Defending the roach max thing with a robo expand relies entirely on force fields. What if you get overlord drop,and just drop roaches right on top of his army at 12 minutes? Sure you might lose 2 overlords of roaches in the process, but the remaining should clean up his army. Protoss armies at 12 minutes after a fast third are tiny......
I believe your wrong on the whole toss dont get armour, I and many other protoss always follow up +1 weapons with +1armour right after this leads into a better macro game. If you want to have +2 weapons started right after +1 finishes you need to get a very early twilight council and that is more centered around the 1430 timing with 3-4 colossus or some other type of timing push or all-in
While yes a toss army if a zerg techs into drops a toss can afford to lose a lot and still have a good chance win, and i dont think dropping right on an army would be very effective around 12 minutes the toss should have anywhere from 110-130 supply depending on tech and macro.
|
Nice write-up. Whenever someone presents an idea that goes against current "metagame," people will criticize you using planty of examples why it is bad and hence why it is not metagame today. It is happening to you here as well.
As someone else pointed out, the problem might be "what if Protoss doesn't attack?" When somoene finds a way to extend the purpose of the units you made off of 2 bases, then it might have a potential. If units serve only 1 purpose: defend 2 base attacks, then it becomes waste if the attack never comes. Instead, if units can be used also to consistently deny protoss 3rd for a longer time or outright kill protoss, then that extended purpose might be worth delaying your own 3rd for. Currently, many seem to think it's not worth it. Therefore, metagame is not 2 base play you presented. But hey, who knows what might happen in future. Someone might find a way/timing to make it work.
|
I like the idea. Pretty well thought out; there's only one thing I would point out as sketchy. I think you only lack the notion, just like NrGmonk stated, that every timing has a response, and as such, there are a few bases you're not covering with this idea, the biggest of all being you get behind P in econ with pretty much all the scenarios you gave, and that's not such a good possition to be in. If P doesn't strike at the timing you were pointing out for whatever reason, you're pretty much screwed in late game because you cut on drones so much. I still think the idea behind being prepared for immortal pushes is for the Z to deny P the necessary econ to get a critical mass of immortals... If you play too defensively, not putting enough pressure, and cutting econ, you're screwing yourself in the mid-long term of the game.
|
In my opinion to stop the 4 immortal 1/1 sentry attack you need 3 base economy. Its sort of that paradox you have in TvP where to actually defend a 1/1/1 the protoss has to expand early to get an economic edge instead of building up an army on 1 base. Therefore 3 base is needed in ZvP much like 2 base is needed in PvT. However 2 base roach ling, banelings busts, and nydus allins are incredibly powerful against FFE players going for gateway and robo aggression and are incredibly underexplored.
|
I would like to chime in considering I'm more of a midgame zerg than a lategame one.
Getting a macrohatchery before the third is out of the question. I have tried it many times and it only really works against a Gateway opening that stays on one base for too long. There is no reason you should delay that third past the 30 supply mark unless you are facing a Gateway opening that has the possibility to get out Zealots to deny that base or atleast deal damage to your drones there.
As for the Zerglings, you shouldn't make more than a small hitsquad designed to deny pylons from going down. What I like to do against the Immortal-Sentry is have a small force near his natural to jump on him and bait out some forcefields before retreating. It delays the push just a tad and you don't need to overcommit on Zerglings that early. It mostly comes down to scouting though. Your scouting has to be top notch to decide when to get drones or units, and I tend to scout the gasses rather than the actual tech. I only scout the base once my overlord gets zapped by their first GtA unit because I can decide a ton from just seeing the gasses.
2 gasses for a long time - maybe +1 and a chrono on cybercore: Depending on the units spawned it could be a DT rush, a Gateway push or a Voidray +1 Zealot pressure. 3 gasses taken usually means stargate play because the gas timings line up better than a 4 gas or 2 gas econ. 3rd and 4th gas taken by 6 minutes - sentries zapping at overlord - its the Immo-Sentry all in, almost guaranteed or a third taken with Immo-Sentry.
It is definitely tough, but there are loads of different responses to each two base all in or two base pressure into a third. You shouldn't skimp on the dronecount too much, rather staying even with him is about as low as you can go otherwise a major counter attack when he takes his third is too costly and he will just be able to probe up evenly together with you and forces you into a much more passive playstyle. If you want to stay aggressive like me, you need that dronecount to make your aggression not being a desperate all in and rather a way to seize mapcontrol and a faster fourth.
|
Russian Federation19 Posts
Thanks for detailed analysis and explanation of ZvP metagame, despite the fact that I am terran, it was informative read.
And looks like i have found replays of what you were talking about: It'S DIMAGA vs Fraer from some kind of showmatch two weeks ago. http://drop.sC/234684 - Here DIMAGA cuts drones on ~40-43, builds a bunch of lings and defends against blink-stalkers.
http://drop.sC/234683 - same stuff - DIMAGA successfully fend off all stargate/gateway units attacks by building drones and units simultaneously.
And Here is just EXACTLY What your post was about: http://drop.sC/234682 - SMall sentry/stalker army was eaten aLive by zerglings at the moment they left their base. (Actually it was a pretty long game after that, but it is a good example I think)
|
I think this may have potential for a couple of reasons.
As someone said before, protoss have no problem holding against stephano max styles these days. A very early protoss third with cannons/wall-off is nearly impossible to break if they mass sentries.
However, the strength of the protoss third relies in the fast that their defenses get up just before a 3 base zerg player could reasonably get roaches and speedlings across the map in any sort of dangerous number.
A zerg that either stays on 2 bases and produces units, or (this would be my favored option) cuts drones much earlier than normal on 3 hatch to get units out, will will have units across the map far earlier than a 3 hatch, 60+drone zerg would.
So in essence, what we are talking about is (very broad strokes here...):
60 drone 12 min max vs. ~40 drone, mass units out by 8 minutes.
The 60 drone build will of course max out far earlier. However, the 40 drone build has 3 advantages, in my eyes
1#: It will have units out in large enough numbers to deny a fast toss third off of few units (like...pre 9 min thirds). Fast third toss builds hold stephano max builds because they are designed to hold at a specific timing after ~10 minutes if you show up with an actual army, albeit far smaller, 2 minutes earlier, there is no way a protoss fast third can hold.
2#: I'm not sure about this one, but i feel you will have so many speedlings out that a player going for an all-in will not be able to move out of his base at the expected time, even to excecute an all-in. He will have to be very meticulous about FFing his way out of his own base without dying, if you camp the front. You could possibly drone at this time, and have the requisite 60 drone count ready for when they finally do break out.
3#: You are potentially saving a large quantity of gas. You are producing likely a pure speedling to deny a third or delay a push. I think it is arguable either way by better players what the overally effect of cutting economy will have on your build, but one thing is certain...if you create a pure ling army, even at an earlier time, you will have more gas leftover for higher tech units when you arent using it up on roaches.
EDIT: people have mentioned the "protoss can just not attack" argument. This is a valid point....but only when the zerg is truly on only 2 bases. I think it would be foolish to actually not morph the third hatchery. You can take advantage of the passive protoss 2 base play in response to your early units by droning up you third, and then having the situation be
3 hatch zerg WITH units vs 2 base protoss. REMEMBER, the normal situation when zerg hits 60 drones would be zerg 3 hatch NO units vs. toss 2 base
|
On August 06 2012 15:27 PlacidPanda wrote: In my opinion to stop the 4 immortal 1/1 sentry attack you need 3 base economy. Its sort of that paradox you have in TvP where to actually defend a 1/1/1 the protoss has to expand early to get an economic edge instead of building up an army on 1 base. Therefore 3 base is needed in ZvP much like 2 base is needed in PvT. However 2 base roach ling, banelings busts, and nydus allins are incredibly powerful against FFE players going for gateway and robo aggression and are incredibly underexplored.
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that. I happened upon this by chance actually....I mis-scouted and thought toss was going for a very early gateway all-in, but....
Long story short, I cut drones early and ended up with a LOT of speedlings and a few roaches. It was one of the easiest times i have had defending the sentry/immortal all in, because as the original poster said, you can engage before they really have a nasty count of stalkers with it, meaning you can threaten with your speedlings. It's sort of like forcing sieges on a tank/marine push. They HAVE to use FFs right outside their own natural against your speedlings, or risk losing all their sentries.
I think if you get those early lings, you delay the push so much and toss has so many few FFs, that you win with your initial army when they get to your base, rather than relying on reinforcing into a poor position. Thjis of course means that you can set up a better engagement from the start, which is not always possible when you are producing panic units in mass off of 60-70 drones.
|
On August 07 2012 00:33 abefroman wrote: 2#: I'm not sure about this one, but i feel you will have so many speedlings out that a player going for an all-in will not be able to move out of his base at the expected time, even to excecute an all-in. He will have to be very meticulous about FFing his way out of his own base without dying, if you camp the front. You could possibly drone at this time, and have the requisite 60 drone count ready for when they finally do break out.
The protoss will have a better economy for a while then though. He doesn't need to move out. Who cares if he can't move out at 9:30 with 2 immortals and 6 sentries if you have delayed roughly 20 drones for a good minute or so ( Which is about 800 minerals per minute you are delaying those drones, just let that sink in ). His army and economy grows while your army either grows and stunts your economy or it stays the same. He could care less if he can't hit his timing at 9:30, if he can hit a new timing with 5 immortals and a huge gateway army that you won't be able to stop because you were delayed on that much income.
On August 07 2012 00:33 abefroman wrote: 3#: You are potentially saving a large quantity of gas. You are producing likely a pure speedling to deny a third or delay a push. I think it is arguable either way by better players what the overally effect of cutting economy will have on your build, but one thing is certain...if you create a pure ling army, even at an earlier time, you will have more gas leftover for higher tech units when you arent using it up on roaches.
A zerg won't be able to spend that gas unless he can get real damage done with pure speedling or delay him immensely. Trust me, as a guy that tends to save up a ton of gas in the midgame and delay a ton to suddenly surprise the toss with an enormous Mutalisk cloud, you won't be able to do that with 40 drones effectively without the Protoss screwing up majorly.
EDIT: people have mentioned the "protoss can just not attack" argument. This is a valid point....but only when the zerg is truly on only 2 bases. I think it would be foolish to actually not morph the third hatchery. You can take advantage of the passive protoss 2 base play in response to your early units by droning up you third, and then having the situation be
On August 07 2012 00:33 abefroman wrote: 3 hatch zerg WITH units vs 2 base protoss. REMEMBER, the normal situation when zerg hits 60 drones would be zerg 3 hatch NO units vs. toss 2 base
REMEMBER that while you are 3 hatch zerg, you are two base economy. You put the race with an nigh-unbreakable wall at that timeframe against the race which can't wall off against warp prism harass or counter attacks with a few units and you will notice a pattern. It involves a lot of lasers and blood, and probably zerg tears. I've been there, done that. Trust me.
|
This depends but i believe its better to make 40-ish lings in advance and try to crush his force (whether its moving out for allin or taking expansion way to early(around 9+min)). Things to note is you need earlier gas and only 1gas and you can make only lings as the units in advance. The earlier gas should be around 4:30 so you can have speed soon enough to catch his probe/pylon pre-warp zealots wich is crucial with only lings. Also it gives you slight(4drone) mineral boost wich you will need to replenish your drone count afterwards. There are 2 problems however as your lair is delayed and your army is in position to intercept his army/expo following can happen. 1) DT play this can be dangerous if you dont scout it properly but ur lair is delayed so it can get tricky 2) Prism play this is even harder to scout and can be even more deadly because proper response for this are units in ur base not around his third.
Edit: Im talking about standart 3hatch opening with stlightly earlier gas
|
I like the idea of making new options to zerg in response to FFE. staying on 2 base might as well be able to deal with the increasingly popular 7 minute 3rd base from toss. however, the reason why these "thin" defenses are so popular, is because if you defend with them properly, you pretty much outright win. As OP states, the different all ins require different responses, mainly on drone cutting. That said, a sentry immortal all in is demolished by baneling drops - speedling - roach - +1 melee. (The faster versions of this all in comes right before drops are finished, but you can take another 3rd elsewhere, sacrafice ur 3rd. If they come straight to your natural, it might become a little wacky and close on timings, but a spine or two should buy enough time.) Even if you lose a base, if you kill this army, protoss is dead. If you lose this army by trading with the zergs army, you still outright lose because it is virtually impossible to take a 3rd base, a push while taking a 3rd base is easier to defend with the more traditional roach ling.
The point i'm making is - it might not be wise to look on 2 base zerg play, as i'm quite sure protoss won't even bother making these all ins, unless you autopilot immortal-sentry from gold to masters.. When it's possible to defend them, if you respond correctly (one way or another - with guessing or scouting). 2base 3 hatch won't put you ahead on drones (as protoss is normally taking the lead up to 36-ish probes.) Perhaps, the whole concept you're making is a little wrong. Protoss don't HAVE to make a 2base all in, it's not like it is decided before the game with no chance of changing it during it. But i really like the idea of thinking of something entirely different. Needs something different though.
|
[B] Even if you lose a base, if you kill this army, protoss is dead
Well, I think right there is the entire rationalle for making earlier units. A zerg can actually do just fine on 2 bases for a while if the protoss is still on 2 bases, and you have an army sufficient to deny their third. If you think about it, the situation we are talking about here is almost IDENTICAL to the situation where a protoss sentry/immortal comes in, kills your third and a few drones, but loses their entire army. it is 2 base vs two base, but zerg has a decent amount of units, toss does not have an army capable of pushing out.
What does this mean? Well, in the short term, zerg can expand, toss cannot. Someone mentioned that if you make earlier units, protoss will be ahead of you in econ. I'm not sure that is necessarily true. I think it is more likely you would end up pretty darn comparable actually. Now, of course the goal is to be ahead. However...i still think you are in a better situation. If you give up your econ advantage early to get units and deny a third, you may now pull ahead in econ by saturating your third with absolute safety.
In all honesty...I feel this strategy would be quite sound against gateway and immortal plays. I think it might have problems against colossi or stargate openers..because you might not be able to deny the third effectively against the stargate, and a colossi push could just win outright on 2 base....but again, I'm not sure.
EDIT: someone mentioned that if you get early speedlings, a protoss could just delay their push, and crush you with a couple extra immortals and a superior economy. I disagree with this.
Again, I am not claiming to KNOW that early units is good, but in this specific situation, protoss going sentry/immortal all-in, if zerg makes 30-40 zerglings (or whatever number is capable of both shutting down a toss fast third AND containing a sentry/immortal all-in), i think the default for zerg after they get the lings out is to drone up the third. That should be the entire point of the early speedlings, that making the early zerglings will actually create a net economical gain for the zerg in the end, that they are guaranteed of A) keeping the protoss on 2 base and B) getting to 70 drones safely.
Protoss can of course push out with a stronger overall force later. However, they will be facing a larger force from the zerg. First off, they ALREADY have units out on the map the second protoss leaves their base. Also, I feel that zerg will still have a 60-70 drone economy in this situation, and will already be back to unit production when protoss leaves their base with 5+ immortals and a decent stalker count.
I guess the real question here is how much time does 40 speedlings buy you?
|
I'm sorry, but I have a big concern: looking at the beggining of your post (i.e. Where you explain the problem and why some solution won't be good), it appears clearly that what you're looking for is a new state of the metagame, and not an individual solution, which, by making your playstyle uncommon on the ladder, would give you personnaly a higher winrate. That being said, it is very clear that cutting drones earlier or not double expanding early on has no chances at all to become part of the metagame, because if the protoss knows it (which is the base of the concept of "metagame"), the response is as simple as not being aggressive on two bases.
Thank you and sorry for bad English
Nb: Nice write up concerning the actual state of the MU though
|
On August 07 2012 01:09 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 00:33 abefroman wrote: 2#: I'm not sure about this one, but i feel you will have so many speedlings out that a player going for an all-in will not be able to move out of his base at the expected time, even to excecute an all-in. He will have to be very meticulous about FFing his way out of his own base without dying, if you camp the front. You could possibly drone at this time, and have the requisite 60 drone count ready for when they finally do break out.
The protoss will have a better economy for a while then though. He doesn't need to move out. Who cares if he can't move out at 9:30 with 2 immortals and 6 sentries if you have delayed roughly 20 drones for a good minute or so ( Which is about 800 minerals per minute you are delaying those drones, just let that sink in ). His army and economy grows while your army either grows and stunts your economy or it stays the same. He could care less if he can't hit his timing at 9:30, if he can hit a new timing with 5 immortals and a huge gateway army that you won't be able to stop because you were delayed on that much income. Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 00:33 abefroman wrote: 3#: You are potentially saving a large quantity of gas. You are producing likely a pure speedling to deny a third or delay a push. I think it is arguable either way by better players what the overally effect of cutting economy will have on your build, but one thing is certain...if you create a pure ling army, even at an earlier time, you will have more gas leftover for higher tech units when you arent using it up on roaches.
A zerg won't be able to spend that gas unless he can get real damage done with pure speedling or delay him immensely. Trust me, as a guy that tends to save up a ton of gas in the midgame and delay a ton to suddenly surprise the toss with an enormous Mutalisk cloud, you won't be able to do that with 40 drones effectively without the Protoss screwing up majorly. EDIT: people have mentioned the "protoss can just not attack" argument. This is a valid point....but only when the zerg is truly on only 2 bases. I think it would be foolish to actually not morph the third hatchery. You can take advantage of the passive protoss 2 base play in response to your early units by droning up you third, and then having the situation be Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 00:33 abefroman wrote: 3 hatch zerg WITH units vs 2 base protoss. REMEMBER, the normal situation when zerg hits 60 drones would be zerg 3 hatch NO units vs. toss 2 base REMEMBER that while you are 3 hatch zerg, you are two base economy. You put the race with an nigh-unbreakable wall at that timeframe against the race which can't wall off against warp prism harass or counter attacks with a few units and you will notice a pattern. It involves a lot of lasers and blood, and probably zerg tears. I've been there, done that. Trust me.
Exactly, you need this 3 base economy to withstand protoss agression. You are already putting down a macro hatch, do there is no reason to put that their hatchery in your base rather than at the third.
|
Ok, just for yucks, I decided to play a little test game vs the comp. Long story short, I got first gas at 4:30 for speed, cut drones at 30 to get 36 lings out total. I then continued (more or less....delayed gas some because I already had speed, etc) droning and normal stephano style roach build. I maxed out at 12:50 with +1, 4 hatches/queens, ling and roach speed.
Realize that my macro is not exactly perfect, and that I normally would max out about 1 minute earlier doing a similar build without the lings.
Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/234748
So the question is, i suppose, are the lings worth 1 minute of delayed economy?
I sort of feel like it is. That number of early lings should shut down any kind of straight gateway all-in, i feel like you would have sufficient units out when protoss is actually able to leave his base with a sentry immortal push, and there is no way in hell he is getting a third up early. Best of all....it looks identical to a normal 3 hatch play up until the point that lings come out/speed finishes around 7:30 i believe. Though if toss is scouting well...they might notice the lack of saturation at the third, but i dont believe drones actually get there much earlier than 7:30, do they?
|
I feel like one of the things that makes it hard for me to defend is on a lot of the maps I can't defend my third and natural with one set of spines, so I never know how many I should build and where they should be. Like, on daybreak you obviously can't, on shakuras you can push creep forward and can cover the front of both, and on condemned ridge it kind of feels a little too easy. When I go "okay i'll use units to defend more instead of spines" i die because i'm bad at the game
|
+ Show Spoiler +On August 07 2012 01:37 abefroman wrote:Well, I think right there is the entire rationalle for making earlier units. A zerg can actually do just fine on 2 bases for a while if the protoss is still on 2 bases, and you have an army sufficient to deny their third. If you think about it, the situation we are talking about here is almost IDENTICAL to the situation where a protoss sentry/immortal comes in, kills your third and a few drones, but loses their entire army. it is 2 base vs two base, but zerg has a decent amount of units, toss does not have an army capable of pushing out. What does this mean? Well, in the short term, zerg can expand, toss cannot. Someone mentioned that if you make earlier units, protoss will be ahead of you in econ. I'm not sure that is necessarily true. I think it is more likely you would end up pretty darn comparable actually. Now, of course the goal is to be ahead. However...i still think you are in a better situation. If you give up your econ advantage early to get units and deny a third, you may now pull ahead in econ by saturating your third with absolute safety. In all honesty...I feel this strategy would be quite sound against gateway and immortal plays. I think it might have problems against colossi or stargate openers..because you might not be able to deny the third effectively against the stargate, and a colossi push could just win outright on 2 base....but again, I'm not sure. EDIT: someone mentioned that if you get early speedlings, a protoss could just delay their push, and crush you with a couple extra immortals and a superior economy. I disagree with this. Again, I am not claiming to KNOW that early units is good, but in this specific situation, protoss going sentry/immortal all-in, if zerg makes 30-40 zerglings (or whatever number is capable of both shutting down a toss fast third AND containing a sentry/immortal all-in), i think the default for zerg after they get the lings out is to drone up the third. That should be the entire point of the early speedlings, that making the early zerglings will actually create a net economical gain for the zerg in the end, that they are guaranteed of A) keeping the protoss on 2 base and B) getting to 70 drones safely. Protoss can of course push out with a stronger overall force later. However, they will be facing a larger force from the zerg. First off, they ALREADY have units out on the map the second protoss leaves their base. Also, I feel that zerg will still have a 60-70 drone economy in this situation, and will already be back to unit production when protoss leaves their base with 5+ immortals and a decent stalker count. I guess the real question here is how much time does 40 speedlings buy you?
yeah, i see the comparison, but such a situation would not exist if protoss responds to your 2base properly. Therefore, as someone said above, this is not really a viable option. I also don't think that 2base zerg would deal with a decently timed 3rd with good defense. Also, zerg can't even tech to hive and he kinda needs to keep on the army race to take a 3rd possibly later than the opponent.
|
On August 07 2012 02:25 abefroman wrote:Ok, just for yucks, I decided to play a little test game vs the comp. Long story short, I got first gas at 4:30 for speed, cut drones at 30 to get 36 lings out total. I then continued (more or less....delayed gas some because I already had speed, etc) droning and normal stephano style roach build. I maxed out at 12:50 with +1, 4 hatches/queens, ling and roach speed. Realize that my macro is not exactly perfect, and that I normally would max out about 1 minute earlier doing a similar build without the lings. Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/234748So the question is, i suppose, are the lings worth 1 minute of delayed economy? I sort of feel like it is. That number of early lings should shut down any kind of straight gateway all-in, i feel like you would have sufficient units out when protoss is actually able to leave his base with a sentry immortal push, and there is no way in hell he is getting a third up early. Best of all....it looks identical to a normal 3 hatch play up until the point that lings come out/speed finishes around 7:30 i believe. Though if toss is scouting well...they might notice the lack of saturation at the third, but i dont believe drones actually get there much earlier than 7:30, do they?
Thank you for the useful test. Ling speed finished at 7min45sec when you took gas at 4min30sec. You put workers on gas and started upgrade both on time, so 3min15sec after taking gas is almost optimal timing for lingspeed.
Technically speaking, Protoss cannot scout 4min30sec gas by Zerg because Queen + initial lings are already out by that time. It requires good probe micro to scout it past 5range queen + lings on creep. Therefore, Protoss doesn't know for sure if ling speed finishes at 7min45 for this gas timing, or not until 9-10 min mark.
Today, protoss players assume that ling speed is delayed because it is the "metagame" and 1-2 stalkers can wander aroud the map for pressure with guaranteed retreat route. Also, a probe put proxy pylons without any escort because slow lings can't quite catch up with probe and take time to kill it.
Now, if Zerg players incorporate this earlier gas build into arsenal, and mix it up, then Protoss would hesitate to go pressure with a few initial units or at least has to retreat earlier in fear of speedlings EVEN WHEN Zerg actually doesn't take early gas. If 50% of games are this earlier gas build, and the rest of 50% are current late gas style, then shifting metagame itself rewards Zerg players just by putting Protoss in doubt and hesitate to go early pressure build.
In order of economical openings, Current 3 base no gas style This fast lingspeed 3 base style 2 base style OP suggested
Maybe Zerg plays too greedy lately and asking to be pressured too easily. Earlier lingspeed investment seems to be cost-efficient enough.
|
OK, I've been out picking up supplies to brew beer, and have been thinking about this some more.
Some questions....
1) What do speedlings pre 8 minute accomplish?
2) How many speedlings do you need to accomplish goals in question number 1?
For my little test...I just picked a rough 2 base mineral saturation as a point to quit droning and then made lings. Ideally.....I would have stopped at 32 drones, 16 in the main, 16 in the natural.
However, while thinking about it, I think 30+ lings is too many. At 7-8 minutes into the game, the goals, in my mind, are to find proxy pylons, and shut down any attempt at a third base by the protoss. I don't think you need 30 to do that. 10-20 is probably way more than enough.
Now, the second goal that I can come up with, and later, in terms of time, is to actually contain the protoss INSIDE their base while on two bases, for fear of being surrounded by lings. I think this needs to be tested by competant players. What can be accomplished by lings made earlier than normal? At the time I am thinking here (~9-11 minutes) speed would normally be done....but zerg would not really have units out en masse by the protoss base in a normal game. How many lings would zerg need to contain protoss? Is it possible? Can zerg drone from 30-40....30-50....30-60 before they start making lings and pull it off?
My gut tells me that if zerg makes like 15 speedlings and has them out on the map around 7:30, and shuts down any attempt at proxies or a third, protoss is going to be mighty apprehensive about pushing out. Further...if zerg squeezes out say, 20 more drones and then floods with lings...zerg and protoss are on even econ, and I THINK zerg could conceivably keep protoss in their base. At this time zerg could completely saturate their 3rd..take all their gases...and tech up.
I just dont know. Any other thoughts?
edit: the previous poster brought up a good point. I honestly dont know if this is good or bad in general....but protoss can't really scout this. He is going to know you have speedlings when they are at his base or killing his proxies. With no real chance to scout, what would the normal protoss reaction be? Would they continue with an all in? Would they tech to colossi on 2 base? Would they mass up sentries and cannons for fear of a bust? Would they try to push out, play defensive, and take a reasonably timed third with extra defenses?
I feel like by doing this, you are likely really limiting the options protoss has. A gateway all-in is already being pretty much hard countered. A later sentry/immortal push I THINK would be dealt with fairly easily also. It seems to me like you are forcing protoss to take a third behind units. They cannot do it with a walloff/cannons, because there are a pile of lings sitting at the third. Would protoss be ahead or behind in this situation if zerg went right back to droning after the initial lings? I feel like any economic edge you conceded to the protoss while they are on 2 base is meaningless if they can't push while on 2 bases, so where will both players end up if zerg macros while protoss take a third passively and late?
Damnit this is really bugging me. It might be counter intuitive....but is this strategy forcing play to 4 base vs 3 base, which really is the end goal of the zerg anyway, assuming they do not want to get aggressive with a max roach/ling bust, correct?
I think it might be actually possible to get a 4th, infestors and broods out faster and safer with this. Who knows, I'm rambling and need a drink now.
If nothing else...this is a way to dictate the course of the game, rather than letting protoss wind up, and throw whatever godforsaken 2 base all-in at you he feels like.
|
On gasless 3 hatch into ling/bling:
Is this viable in the "two base" phase of ZvP, late game is obviously a different story? I've never actually tried it, but I would think that you could have blings out by the time any all in arrives and you might even be able to have speed (ling and bling) depending on the nature of the all in/aggression Plus 1 carapace would probably be the early upgrade of choice for handling zealots. Force fields would be a problem, but they are for any early game Zerg tech and it's much faster to setup flanks and run away with ling/bling than roaches.
I don't think I've ever seen this done, so I have nothing to compare it to and just because I would be successful in Diamond with this strat doesn't actually make it good
|
Ok so I played a few games this way against immortal all ins. I baited a whole lot of ffs with the lings, but still lost. Not sure if that is the build, or related to the fact I can't stop it with a more normal build either lol.
|
Sounds good but what if he doesnt attack? what if what you think is a blink allin is actually a 2 base collosus push. In that case you would 100% die to the collosus having forfeited so much economy.
Id argue making excess units before the attack hits is an even more risky playstyle that just bets on him attacking.
|
On August 07 2012 06:23 TheGreenMachine wrote: Sounds good but what if he doesnt attack? what if what you think is a blink allin is actually a 2 base collosus push. In that case you would 100% die to the collosus having forfeited so much economy.
Id argue making excess units before the attack hits is an even more risky playstyle that just bets on him attacking.
Yeah 2 base colossi is something i thought would be pretty strong against this, but i think you would have a raging economy and likely infestors out by the time this hits. Again, I'm not sure how the timing work out, but thse lings set you back less than a minute, and you could make the argument you are teching faster by playing this way since you are spending less gas on roaches.
|
On August 07 2012 06:28 abefroman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 06:23 TheGreenMachine wrote: Sounds good but what if he doesnt attack? what if what you think is a blink allin is actually a 2 base collosus push. In that case you would 100% die to the collosus having forfeited so much economy.
Id argue making excess units before the attack hits is an even more risky playstyle that just bets on him attacking. Yeah 2 base colossi is something i thought would be pretty strong against this, but i think you would have a raging economy and likely infestors out by the time this hits. Again, I'm not sure how the timing work out, but thse lings set you back less than a minute, and you could make the argument you are teching faster by playing this way since you are spending less gas on roaches. Oh ok, so I can definitely agree with this.
Using the small to medium group of zerglings to force your opponent in a certain direction, towards 2 base collosus for instance. If he pushes out with 4 zealot +1, or with a cheesy 3rd base, or with a small # stalkers for blink allin you will destroy him but if he goes collosus that is a likely response after he sees the lings. Tho sentry immortal push might be just as likely or moreso. Maybe a 2 base muta? with a focus on doing economic damage forcing stalkers rather than collosus or sentry. Hell I don't know what im sayin anymore
Using the lings as a way to narrow down what your opponent does is a very useful tool, sometimes worth the lower economy.
|
On August 07 2012 06:32 TheGreenMachine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 06:28 abefroman wrote:On August 07 2012 06:23 TheGreenMachine wrote: Sounds good but what if he doesnt attack? what if what you think is a blink allin is actually a 2 base collosus push. In that case you would 100% die to the collosus having forfeited so much economy.
Id argue making excess units before the attack hits is an even more risky playstyle that just bets on him attacking. Yeah 2 base colossi is something i thought would be pretty strong against this, but i think you would have a raging economy and likely infestors out by the time this hits. Again, I'm not sure how the timing work out, but thse lings set you back less than a minute, and you could make the argument you are teching faster by playing this way since you are spending less gas on roaches. Oh ok, so I can definitely agree with this. Using the small to medium group of zerglings to force your opponent in a certain direction, towards 2 base collosus for instance. If he pushes out with 4 zealot +1, or with a cheesy 3rd base, or with a small # stalkers for blink allin you will destroy him but if he goes collosus that is a likely response after he sees the lings. Tho sentry immortal push might be just as likely or moreso. Maybe a 2 base muta? with a focus on doing economic damage forcing stalkers rather than collosus or sentry. Hell I don't know what im sayin anymore Using the lings as a way to narrow down what your opponent does is a very useful tool, sometimes worth the lower economy.
Yes thank you, thats exactly what I was thinking. I mean you can basically scratch off any sort of all in gateway timing, as well as very fast thirds. There is just no way for either of those to succeed. I played against someone who took a third off of some units, and i just took a 4th base and went straight for brood/infestor. I lost, but it was because I was playing against a masters player, and he went mothership/carrier lol! I actually had a TON of infestors, and very very early broods, because the only gas I spent the whole game was on ling speed, lair, +1 attack. Everything else went towards brood/infestor.
|
Oh another thing id like to mention, is the swell of lings somewhere between 8-10 minutes should be based on some kind of scouting, not sure if lack of 4th gas is enough. I guess lack of 3rd gas could definitely mean cheesy 3rd base or some big gateway pressure.
|
Well the swell (~20) lings comes out before 8 minutes...right around when speed finishes. From 8-10 minutes i'm making drones unless under attack.
|
what about over droning on 2base macro hatch and tech up to lair if no 2 base timing from protoss. double expand and transfer drones with longdistance mining before they finnish?
|
Well, I guess I dont understand why you would put the third hatch in your base rather than at the third, since you will have more units compared to a "standard" 3 hatch. This is technically safer until at least 10 minutes. Also, assuming you deny scouting of your gas (and I put it down at 4:30, so you should be able to) protoss has NO idea this build is any different until you get 20 speedlings at their base.
edit: I mean, i put the hatch at my third because i plan on droning it up asap. Basically, I drone until i have enough for 2 base mineral saturation, make 20 lings, then put drones back on gas and drone up the third. If protoss tries to push out through my lings and take a third at a reasonable time....i'll just keep droning all the way to 90+ and go straight for brood/infestor.
|
I like the theory craft; I do not like the state of zvp 3 hatch - def a 2base Protoss timing. I have been messing around with 2base. Partly cause I am a scum bagg low diamond.
Also because I just get stomped by P xD On that note; its true if they scout no 3rd they tend to turtle up come out a little later with more shizz and safely take a 3rd. Before me or at the same time, still unacceptable :/
And then I have an army that could have been drones :/
|
I've experimented with this a little bit and I've had mixed success. My frustration with it is that it requires the toss to play one of the aggressive timings that you mentioned. Although there are a lot of them in my experience toss players have adapted their play and are electing to go back towards a more passive delayed attack style. Basically if toss attacks via the old meta then you'll likely get a good advantage going into the late game if you've been actively upgrading and teching. If the toss sits back and takes a safe third then you're way behind because you can't be aggressive. A good toss will scout this and simply delay their attack by a few minutes and hit you just after you saturate your 3rd or started your 4th. This is your weakest point in the game and 95% of the time you'll lose your expo and be stuck on 2 base with ling/roach/infestor and not enough gas to go tier-3.
what sucks so much when you lose this way is that know that if you simply went a standard build you probably would have been in great shape.
I have gone back to the typical 3 base openings and just been more proactive in scouting the timings and more focused on tech/comp/upgrades than on 12 min 200/200 max. It's really hard to trade efficiently, expo, and tech unless you're Stephano.
Much of the time Toss attacks come much later than they used to so with good vision/scouting you can drone harder and focus less on roaches and more on getting our earlier infestors/tier-3
|
I have to agree with the OP. I feel this matchup is currently broken. The cost effectiveness and turtle power of the protoss is so immense that it leads to a weird matchup. Basically, I feel like the ffe combined with sentries basically lets the protoss get to 40 probes without ever build units. This is just pure non-sense. Of course, so many probes so early combined with Warpgate technology leads to some timing pushes that have an incomparable pushing power as the protoss cut units for the first 8 minutes.
I think it is pretty sad that a zerg can't effectivelly put pressure on a protoss before the protoss gets on a third. This basically lets the protoss do whatever he wants, how he wants it as the only thing zerg can do is REACT, the zerg simply can't be the race that sets the tempo. That's mostly why I think this matchup is broken, not IMBALANCED. This matchup can't evolve in any way with the current units and stats.
As a whole, that's why I think that 6pool on smaller maps should almost be standard as it is the only build where zerg can effectively put pressure on the protoss. We've seen SuhoSin and Life lately use these kind of strats and it led to good results for those 2. Sadly, you can't always go 6pool as a gate first build pretty much hardcounters it.
I can't wait for HoTS... Early recall for protoss = protoss can finally push early on without having to be scared to hit 40 speedlings. New zerg units = Something to do against ffe (I hope). I'm getting tired of 2 base timings -_-
|
I don't play that much starcraft (I'm platinum) and I'd like to hear your opinions on 2 base infestor play. We saw some players like freaky and YugiOh try that and it led to some success. Is it really viable ?
|
Hyun vs Squirtle on IPL Fight Club going on right now is actually a great high level example of ideas here in practice so maybe it's not such a far-fetched metagame experiment.
I need to look at replays to see the specifics and also how tight of a rope Hyun's walking here but it's definitely more entertaining to watch as a spectator.
|
We tend to search for "the best" build you should do every game. Instead, why don't we try to find "a few" viable builds and accept that fact that each of them have some build order disadvantage.
I think this earlier lingspeed build is not something you should do every game. As ohters pointed out above, it has its weaknesses. However, Protoss CANNOT scout this 4min30sec gas timing because of queen/lings. This means that if Zerg players collectively mix it up and use both no gas 3 base and this earlier ling speed, then Protoss players cannot be sure until he sees ling speed at 7min45sec. Or, it doesn't necessarily have to be 4min30sec gas. Making it 5min, 5min30 etc. and mixing up every game would prevent Protoss to "read the metagame." Then, any Protoss units wandering around after 7min45sec are in danger potentially. Potentially in danger = reluctant to move out EVEN WHEN no gas is actually taken and Zerg is going economy because Protoss cannot or should not scout the gas timing.
When 95% of games are no gas 3 base and only 5% are this earlier ling speed, Protoss can just "metagame" Zerg and do a build that is safe vs no gas 3 base but is risky vs earlier ling speed. If both styles are used 50% each, then Protoss would hesitate to use the aforementioned build.
I don't think we are trying to win every game. You win some, you lose some. If earlier ling speed is auto loss vs some builds, but shifting metagame itself prevents some good builds vs no gas 3 base style, then it may benefit Zerg OVERALL despite some silly build order losses. The point I repeat is that Protoss cannot scout gas timing without Zerg slip up.
|
|
|
|