Great post by Orek, explains the all-in in its true form: Let me help set standard for what Zerg should assume for this push. I present no solution, but just raw facts and analysis so that we can discuss based on the same timings/assumptions.
As LonelyClock posted in last page, I think this game needs to be added to the OP to show everyone what we are dealing with.
Introduction Hello TeamLiquid, I'm Mavvie, a (now mid!) Masters Zerg on NA. ZvP is my best and favourite matchup, yet there is one all-in that is simply really, really good and often beats even the highest level GSL players. This all-in is known as the immortal/sentry all in, or 3 immortal timing, really whatever you want to call it. It's 3 immortals, 6+ sentries, and 7 gates of stalker/zealot reinforcements, often with warp prism/observers, that can be attacking your third as early as 10:20. This thread is designed to discuss and compile the various ways of defending the immortal/sentry all-in as Zerg. I will start off by describing the ways I am familiar with, if you have your own way (against a true immortal/sentry all-in that is attacking you no later than 10:45) that I have missed, please post and include a replay for us to see it in action!
Note: This is intended as a compilation of methods that can stop the all-in. I'm not pretending to invent these, in fact I have little to no experience with most of these methods. I've just been reading TL a lot, and know of these methods. As a result of this, I happen to have no recent replays except for one Please post replays of you defending this all-in! Not to be elitist, but really masters and higher replays only. Odds are, in lower leagues it won't be executed properly, and often Protoss don't know how to forcefield and abuse terrain. This is a topic that has been discussed heavily before, but never in a really comprehensive fashion. If you read every post in the Zerg Help Me Thread, and Belial's ZvP guide, and the [D] about Nestea's fast mutalisk style, you would know how to defend the all-in. Unfortunately, this is neither fast nor practical, so I have decided to throw it all together into one happy thread to discuss. Also, it's my first guide, criticism will be accepted and I will be actively editing this with new replays, vods, and methods. Also expect some sexy images of Protoss armies getting crushed.
Orek is also a boss and described the possible ways of scouting this:
"Squirtle's build order execution looks very close to optimal. As Khaldor said in the video, it is "textbook immortal push" that Zerg players should keep in mind. I doubt that an average NA/EU master/GM Joe can pull off this level of play at the moment, so probably add 10-30sec to every timing for your ladder play.
Timings (only important timings) 6:00&6:25 3rd 4th gas taken 9:00 move out 9:45 arrive near or inbetween Zerg bases if undisturbed. (depend on map distance) 10:10 engagement unit count =3immortals, 12 sentries, 1 stalker, 5 zealots, 1 warpprism, 1 observer(not arrived yet) with +1 attack upgrade. 10:30 +1 armor upgrade finish if no chronoboost is used. -10sec for each chronoboost. In the video, it is not clear if squirtle used chrono or not, but 10:30 is upgrade complete timing at the very latest. Depending on map and where you set up the defense, Zerg has at least 35-60sec to prepare after lings confirm the push in front of protoss base. Map distance reference:[G]Map Distance & Travel Time. Check 2.25 movement speed section for immortal/sentry.(Ohana has different image, but distance is the same)
Zerg Scouting I think we need to assume the worst when skill is not involved. Standard scouting assumption: 1. Zerg can scout 3rd&4th gas timings (Cloud Kingdom 4th gas is the only one hard to scout on ladder) 2. Zerg cannot scout any tech buildings including robo with overlord sacrifice. (not always reliable, so assume the worst) 3. Zerg cannot see the sentries with overlord sacrifice. (1 stalker is already out at 6:15 to kill the overlord) 4. Zerg can know that protoss doesn't have 7:30ish fast 3rd. (1 ling can easily scout it) 5. Zerg can see the move out around 9:00-9:30 in front of protoss base. (lings with careful micro is skill-based, not luck-based) 6. Zerg cannot find/kill all proxy pylons, espcially non-close ones. (It is OK to assume you can kill close proxy before 9:30, but hidden mid map ones are not always found/killable)"
In a typical game, you will not be certain that you've seen every last gateway. You can't always scout every last inch of his base, so you can't definitively rely on this. The difference between a 5gate robo expand and a 7gate robo all-in is minimal -- only 2 gateways difference! Fortunately, you typically react to both of these the same way: -Take a fourth -Go more ling heavy than usual
Without further ado, how do we stop this terrible all-in?
Method 1: Out-power it with roach/ling Good news: This is the most reliable, consistent, skill-based way to stop it. sCCrooked has done a lot of work and research, so props to him Here is what he has to say about roach/ling:
On December 25 2012 14:35 sCCrooked wrote: I realized I never really compiled all my findings spread out in this thread into 1 post so here goes:
sCCroooked's findings regarding stopping the immortal/sentry all-in from the last 5 months of extensive testing
The best response in my opinion is roach/ling but with a variation on how you execute it.
First off, most Zs go lair first vs P. This is no longer possible with immo/sentry being so popular as it strikes before lair tech units can be out. The immo/sentry expand also has given P a very safe option to expand with this composition and its incredibly hard to tell the difference as a Z, while even a slight delay in the proper reaction could result in a game over.
To stop the immortal all-in, we must recognize its formation and its execution first.
-3 immortals + many sentries move out of natural base with warp prism on the way and a probe or 2 to build pylons
During this first stage, all the P will have is immortal/sentry with no zealot/stalker except possibly 1 single stalker which isn't a significant factor we have to consider in this since the counter-unit is the same.
So what kills 1 stalker/sentries and immortals? Bunch of speedlings! If they forcefield, even better because it still helps your cause out.
-The remaining immortals/sentries and the pylons/warp-prism will gather together in a single spot and defend it with ffs and firing behind the wall. Seeing such mass lings during the first stage of our engagements will almost always force zealot warp-ins. If they warp in stalkers, its just begging for more lings to be made.
This stage is incredibly important because its right around now that the attack looks a lot more threatening with all the warp-ins adding to its power. Since you forced a lot of zealots, make a roach round to deal with it and pre-rally them into a flank at home. They won't have speed done just yet so they're useless off creep. Position these in a nice big circle to lead them into. After 1-2 warps of zealots, you probably won't be able to force any ffs unless the P gets careless since most Ps will realize they're safe behind 14 zealots from your lings and can stop the sentry/immo from being attacked. Try to pick off sentries if you can, but whatever you do, don't waste your lings.
-Finally, the P is completely set up with immo/sentry and will be attacking into one of your bases with the intention of continually reinforcing with zealot/stalker and then winning right there.
Hopefully by this point, you've exhausted almost all the sentry energy. They might have enough for 1 more big donut of forcefields, but that should be it and you can get in with the next wave of roach/ling.
Now that we've broken that down and how to respond in each stage, how do we achieve all these timings?
I'd recommend following fenner's build order from this video.
Its very greedy and gets a warren too late for things like 8 gate +2 blink allins or something, but its perfect for the latest meta which is 3 base collossi pushes off immo/sentry or SG expand or the immo/sentry all-in off 2 bases. You really don't see much 4 gate +1 pressure into all-in or those as much these days.
However we're going to make a few changes to Fenner's build order for this particular all-in.
The beauty of this version is that I've found it not only works against immo/sentry all-in, but it also is fast enough and with enough economy and tech to completely kill P who use the immo/sentry as an expand off 5 gates or so.
At this point, I'm assuming everyone has seen the video or can get to 70+ supply before 7:30 rather easily (you really want before 7:15, but 7:30 is a good round number for general use here) so I shouldn't have to explain that build part. We're just going to point out all the variation changes we need to stop this push.
-Speed first, then lair (reason is we need speed to be done no later than 8:30 or so for that 8:50 first stage)
-Stop at no more than 56 drones. (reason for this is larva + timing. Those 4-8 larva can be 16 speedlings instead of drones and stopping at this number does not dent your economy badly)
-Delay macro hatch until your first ling round is made
-Spread Creep with at least 2 tumors. I usually do one with my natural queen and then once again around 50 supply mark and 6:00 from the third base
Using these variations, you get speedlings out quicker in time to deal with the oncoming push. You also have roach tech (which wouldn't have speed even close to done anyways even if lair was done) massing slowly at your base.
The purpose of these lings is more harassment. Treat them like you would a muta flock of 10 or so when facing a Terran base that already has turrets but is trying to build more on the edges or something. Its a volatile force you're facing and a few good ffs can catch some lings, so pay attention to this force very carefully.
Well now that we see the variations, how do we execute this?
-While active with your lings on the map engaging his first push-out, target sentries and probes/pylons above all else. If you're REALLY lucky he'll screw up and you can surround an immortal in which case definitely take it, but this would be a rather large blunder so don't count on it. You can quite possibly pick off all probes thus crippling his reinforcement abilities and might even get a sentry or 2 killed.
-Make a round of pure roach at home after your 20-30 speedlings
-Continue to engage and surround with lings while on the map. Do not move your roaches! You basically want to set them up and then lure them into this attacking spot with the flank already set up.
-Its ok to make a few lings if you see your group of lings got ff'd or something and it caused you to lose a lot of them, but concentrate mainly on roaches. If you see they still have a considerable amount of ffs when they reach your base, you can suicide the remaining ling bunch trying to bait some more or take out some sentries.
As soon as you see them actually at your base, its time for the big attack. You need to snap that big 3 or even 4 way arc of roaches around them and prepare to back them off once he makes a donut of ffs. If you did a good job with the lings, this should be his final ffs you're seeing.
After this point, its ok to make either roaches or lings depending on what you see happening. Its very dependent at this point so I can't really guide farther than this.
Yes! There are things like engagement places and looking for likely places for pylons to be hidden.
On a map like Entombed, make sure that small arc behind the middle-left and middle-right rocked-off expansions is cleared. P love hiding stuff back there.
Any areas that have vision-blockers like shrubs or trees need to be checked thoroughly. A good P will send 2 probes to make pylons just in case you see one of them with the army, there's another one running around sneakily setting up places they can reinforce on the map. Sniping those probes is HUGE if you can pull it off.
In a proper engagement of the roaches, you want to set up the flanks long before you'll actually have him in there. The longer you're able to keep him busy, the more roaches you can have waiting for him there. On a map like Ohana, its very likely they'll snake up around onto where you'd normally build your 4th base and try to set up a position there.
Since you already know probably where he'll engage (Daybreak on your third's choke, Cloud Kingdom on that snaking back path to your third, etc), it shouldn't be hard to rally the eggs to different places so you have a huge flank already set up. I can't stress how important this is.
Try to save the lings as much as possible while harassing the crap out of sentries. They buy you time and weaken his potential with baiting ffs and killing sentries/probes/pylons.
The roaches are your hammer though. Think of the time you buy and the damage you do with your lings as a gauge. By killing more stuff or preventing more pylons or every time you make him use a forcefield, that hammer is raised higher and the head is given more weight as time goes on.
Ahead there be some spoilers from a game of the Blizzard Cup Finals, do not read if you don't want Parting vs Life spoiled!
Your object here is to make "The Hammer" part as heavy and as painful as possible. This was showcased in some replays but I don't have many of my own to give. The best execution in a pro match I've seen was in the last Blizzard Cup Finals on Entombed. Life did exactly as I've been testing and it stopped parting cold. He was trying to warp in nothing but sentries at the end because Life did so well with the lings and had so many roaches waiting when Parting finally made it over.
Now granted, I think he got pretty damned lucky with the probe/pylon snipe, but the concept is very sound and still works at top 50 GM level as I've shown before.
Extra concerns I will add later into another well-written part include:
-what if they manage to get down pylons?
-actual in-depth descriptions of how to engage on every map in the current pool
-more replays of myself pulling this off at GM league level
-what if they go for 5 gate immo/sentry expand and I went for this variation? Won't I be behind?
I hope you all find my research helpful and I will continue to post my findings here.
Everything I say below still applies, but like the rest of the guide is a bit outdated. For example, you should hit 70 supply at 7:20, not 8:00. "Macro better" is hugely important!
Okay, so you're playing a standard ZvP, when all of a sudden you scout immortal/sentry all-in. You have balls of steel, so you decide to use roach/ling to kill his all-in (or pressure his expand)
Be extremely ling heavy. Like really ling heavy. As in, 20 roaches MAX, preferably fewer. You want as many lings as possible, you really need to macro perfectly. If you don't hit 70 food by 8:00, and you don't make a macro hatch at 8:00, you'll simply lose with roach/ling. Also, if you just 1a into his army, you /should/ lose. Unless Protoss sucks.
How to engage:
You need 2 to 3 flanks minimum. If you come at him from one direction, he'll just laugh and forcefield you to death, while his army (and lead) snowballs. You must engage from multiple directions, hopefully in the open. If you manage to fully surround his units, you've won the game. Try to micro so that zerglings are attacking the immortals and stalkers, but at the very least try to draw the fire away from the roaches. The AI makes units target the closest units, and if the immortals are shooting zerglings then you're in a pretty good shape.
Oboeman recommends flanking with roach/ling from both directions, and that creep spread is extremely important, even worth an inject or two:
When trying to use roach ling, make sure you have both roaches and lings on all sides of your flank. If you hit with roaches from one side and lings from the other, it's pretty easy to forcefield you out while still killing many units. If you have roach/ling on both sides, it's much harder and he needs to use more than twice as many forcefields.
Also I know we are all very greedy with our inject,. but a bit of creep really does help out so much.
Since I'm a noob, I'll typically have my split my army into three parts. I have half my lings on 1, half on 2, and my roaches on 3. 1 and 2 should be opposite directions, while your roaches hit the side flank. For example: Roaches (down arrow) Lings--->>Protoss<<----Lings ----------Wall--------------
Protoss has to forcefield 270 degrees of Zerg forces, and if he misses even one, you swarm in. Even if he forcefields correctly, he's trapped himself, hopefully out of range of your hatchery. Just wait for the FF to dissipate, then re-engage. It's possible to defeat immortal/sentry with roach/ling, but you need to macro perfectly then engage perfectly. Very hard.
I have a few replays of plat league me vs diamond league Protoss during a lesson with TangSC, I will try to find these ASAP. In the mean time, please post replays of this method!
Method 2: Basetrade with roach/ling As far as I know, this is the only method of defeating the all-in consistently at the pro level. It's really easy. Once you see him move out, you mass spines at your natural, while taking your current army to his base, while avoiding his army. You sac your third, but kill Protoss's natural, so it's a 2base vs 1base situation. Honestly I don't know how to transition out of this, I guess your best bet is to go mutalisk/zergling and immediately double expand. This style has been done before by blade55555, and he's had extreme success with it in the grandmaster league. Focus fire the probes + nexus, then try to snipe the main if you can.
Upon playing more with the various ways of defending the all-in, this is totally the best one imo. I'd like to emphasize just how easy and simple it is; even with bad macro it's a free win. Just remember to mass spines around when he moves out, preferably make ~5 about 30 seconds before you think he'll move out.
One of the replays in there I analyzed if people are curious about that:
Method 3: Fast 3 base mutalisks Originally done by Nestea in the GSL, a truly amazing build that wins against robo expands and wins against robo all-ins.
While any fast mutalisk build works, this is the rough outline of Nestea's: 1) Fast gas after third (~4:30) 2) First 100 gas into ling speed, next 100 into lair 3) Drone up as usual, take 3x gas at 6:30 4) If you scout no gateway all-in, skip roach warren + evo chamber entirely 5) If you scout robo, Spire as soon as lair finishes 6) 2x gas at 7:00-7:30 If he all-ins, mass spines in your natural, sac third (leave guys mining gas) and basetrade with muta/ling. Reinforcing mutas go to his base, reinforcing lings stay in your spine forest. If he expands, take a fourth and pressure with mutas. Honestly, you should win the game then and there. 10-15 mutas pop at 10:30; no protoss is ever prepared for that.
Haha blade does it again Game 1 Game 2 Game 3 VOD mentioned in the thread about Nestea's style: Here
Method 4: Mass zergling into 3 base muta (not fast) So this is a style that Belial has used, and it's my personal favourite. Fortunately for me, people in diamond suck, so it works just great. Open standard gasless 3 hatch, 3x gas at 6:30, blah blah blah open standard, hit 70+ by 8:00, and macro hatch immediately. Mass lings. +1 Carapace helped me a lot, shouldn't usually get this though. So if you mass lings from 8:30+, you can sort of kind of engage if you flank a lot. I really just stall for mutas, then I'm able to win the engagements and proceed to win the game through not playing like a moron. I imagine that at higher levels you could pull this style off by making a bunch of spines to add critical DPS to your zerglings when you engage, but you'd have to make them ~9:00 because of how long they take to morph.
Here's a game I played today, worked very well in my favour ZvP Ohana
Method 5: Baneling drops Here's one that I hope you guys can explain and give replays of working! The problem is that you can't get drops in time to stop the all-in...maybe a modification of Nestea's build could work, but there's no high level replays of this working. Despite this all, every second post about dealing with sentry/immortal all-ins suggests baneling drops. Even Kevin te Raa has said that he will be coming out with a guide(?) or at least replays on the topic. I'm looking forward to that!
Awesome, first replay I've seen of baneling drops being used against sentry/immortal. Here's the build that I think would be "optimal", from seeing the replay: -gas @5:00 -gas @6:00 -gas @7:00 -ling speed first, then lair -no roach warren/evo unless needed -@100% lair, get drops + overlord speed -@50 gas, baneling nest -macro hatch when money allows, should be ~8:45 -cut drones ~50 (I really don't like this part of the build, but it seems to be necessary to defend this particular all-in. I imagine that if he had skipped the roach warren, he would've had up to 10 more drones here) -morph 24+ banes upon completion of baneling nest -don't get supply blocked!
Engagements: In the replay, he engaged with the overlords from one direction, zerglings flanking. It didn't work, along with having 1500/500 banked. If there was no supply block, it would've been an easy cleanup. Banelings killed much of the sentries, and i think having ling/overlord on one side and ling/bane on the other would be terrific. This looks pretty promising. I still don't like 15 hatch, because the slight economic gain is negated by almost always having to pull drones.
Analysis of new ways to stop it: An excerpt of Orek's post, explaining the FF count and general rules for possible solutions: + Show Spoiler +
10:10 Forcefield count analysis energy regeneration rate is 0.5625energy/second. Time it takes to regenerate 50 energy for forcefield = 50/0.5625=88.8888=almost 90sec=1min30sec. Therefore, whichever sentry made after 8:40 has only 1 force field, and those before 8:40 have 2 forcefields. Among before 8:40 group, sentry made before 7:10 can even have 3rd forcefield as well. From video analysis, it looks 1sentry =3FF, 3 sentry =2FF, 8 sentry =1FF. 1*3+3*2+8*1=17 forcefields are available for protoss at 10:10 mark. Since there are 12 sentries and 90sec is 50energy regeneration interval, 90/12 =7.5sec is average FF refill period. That is to say, protoss gains 1 additional forcefield every 7.5 seconds on average. Therefore, 10:10 17FFcount -> 10:40 21 FFcount ->11:10 25 FFcount ->11:40 29 FFcount if protoss keeps all 12 sentries alivem
With all these in mind, Zerg should go for a build that A. can defend immortal/sentry all-in (obviously) B. can defend other 2 base all-ins that involve 6:00-6:25ish 3rd&4th gas.
If you do a build that can satisfy A, but not B, then it relies on your luck or opponent's lack of skill. Your build has to satisfy both A&B to play consistently. Important thing to remember is that you never know 100% if it is immortal/sentry push until 9:00 mark. It could be delayed 2 stargate(usually 5:30&6:00 gas) as far as you know from the scouting information.
I hope these information set common ground for discussion.
Closing notes: Thanks for reading, hopefully you enjoyed and can try out some various ways to stop this powerful all-in! Since I don't have access to many recent replays against this style, please post any replays and mention which style you used! Honestly, I hope that we can kick this all-in out of the metagame. Take that, Protoss! Just kidding love you guys :D
Edit 1: Formatting changes, changed the header images to some that were "less offensive" Edit 2: Added content to baneling drops, including a replay thanks to Chaos. Also added change log. August 17, 2012: Added in blade55555's new replays + video analysis the the roach/ling basetrade section. August 19,2012: Added the video at the top, also included excerpts from Orek's post that help define both the all-in itself, and guidelines for builds that may attempt to stop it (and other similar-looking all-ins, from a worst-case-scenario zerg scouting point of view)
When I go muta to 'counter' robo play, I hold off on my macro hatch - you actually won't be banking minerals if you macro well, since you are banking gas, and you'll actually need to cut ling production, as 1.5k means you also need to have 1.5k minerals.
So if Toss pushes out, i don't make the macro hatch, but instead prefer to make 3 more spines with that money. If Toss goes for his third, I'll actually take my fourth first, since I'll have total map control with the mutas and there's no issue of trying to defend a push and being spread on 4 bases being a problem.
Quick mutas, like nestea's build, won't autowin against robo expands if the Toss is good with scouting and gets twilght, blink started asap, especially on maps where mutas aren't as good. Although really, I've had a lot of straight up wins with it against robo expands on ladder, it seems to me the later the third, the easier it is to kill them.
I have no idea how pros hold immortal/sentry or why every Toss doesn't do it still. Out of all the times it's been executed correctly, Toss has always been ahead, and except for 2 really stupid games, Toss has always won. Nestea vs Sage or something... muta base trade Hyun vs someone in GSTL muggenheim, roach/ling full base trade, no spines, loses all his bases, literally both players have nothing on the map and eventually hyun has enough units to win made from spread out bases
That's it Then leenock and i think violet, or symbol, on daybreak and cloud kingdom respectively, have had games where Toss kills the third, but toss is a moron and keeps pushing instead of backing off, and loses their entire army on creep, in a corner, with no forcefield left, totally surrounded, by maxed roach/drone/queen, but these games I think Toss really had the game won, just they were dumb.
Then one Toss actually lost going immortal/sentry because he move commanded all his sentries into a full group of lings, and forgot 2 of his 3 immortals with the push. Not sure what was going on with that guy, but he had a superior army and was able to walk to the third unimpeded, if he wasn't braindead he would have easily won that game.
But for some reason, Toss never do this build in pro play and for whatever reason, immortal/sentry isn't around in the current metagame. in WCS korea some toss did this and just rolled the zerg with it.
I just edited my guide and added a ton of content on immortal/sentry. I literally wrote it out the exact same way you did, and I did it 2 days ago. lol. i feel like you copy/pastad exactly what i said. not that i care though, i mean, you link my guide, and copying my guide just means there are two badass guides on TL.
On August 15 2012 15:59 734pot wrote: Is it possible to get baneling drops in time if you skip the +1/+1 and speed before lair using a 4:30 gas?
basically baneling drop and muta needs the same time to get. so if muta is viable, baneling drops are too. like said in the OP you need to stall with mass lings (and preferably with 4-6 banes so he HAS to FF himself in = more time stalled).
@OP: perhaps you could add another variant: roach ling drop in Ps main with mass spines at natural where you defend with spines, lings and banedrop.
While I initially wrote off this guide seeing that you were a mid-diamond player, I'm very pleased with how you wrote this, and how you give credit to others who have discussed this issue, and the overall presentation. Kudos to you! Great job. =D I hope you get into Masters soon. =)
On August 15 2012 15:59 734pot wrote: Is it possible to get baneling drops in time if you skip the +1/+1 and speed before lair using a 4:30 gas?
If you want baneling drops out in time you need to take a gas much earlier than the regular double extractor at 6:00. Either you take a single gas at 4:30 or double extractor at 5:00. But the latter is less efficient because you really won't be needing that much gas that early on. It is also critical to get lair up before speed if the signs are right ( third and fourth gas at 6:00, sentry zapping you, spotting a robo ) so you can get drops out against the 9:30 variant. But you can't get any upgrades aside from roach-speed if you want to do this style. I'd go with the other styles that were brought up in this guide and try and work with those while I gather replays and evidence in favour of this method.
Using the bane ling opening, i've seen Goswser base trading with a bust to the protoss wall (so same concept of the roach ling). While doing this ofc you spine up your nat and tech muta or prepare for the drop. If you go 1 gas after 3rd hatch, take speed, lair , 3 more gases , and upgrades after, you get drop upgrade completed at 10.50 (probably even sooner since i stay on 2 drones on gas for a while after i take speed).
On August 15 2012 17:57 Grapefruit wrote: The first picture makes you look like such a big douchebag that I didn't even read the first line.
this really, scouting someting and trash talking in game is not cool or manner, also you are diamond so if i were you i would make that pic dissapear from this topic
On August 15 2012 15:59 734pot wrote: Is it possible to get baneling drops in time if you skip the +1/+1 and speed before lair using a 4:30 gas?
basically baneling drop and muta needs the same time to get. so if muta is viable, baneling drops are too. like said in the OP you need to stall with mass lings (and preferably with 4-6 banes so he HAS to FF himself in = more time stalled).
@OP: perhaps you could add another variant: roach ling drop in Ps main with mass spines at natural where you defend with spines, lings and banedrop.
Actually, this seems interesting. I'll try it out today with a practice partner. You have a good point they both can be done ~10:30. Hopefully drop tech is faster because you don't have to add the mutalisk spawn time -- drops are done when they're done. Also, if you survive, bane drops are absolutely amazing. Have you seen DIMAGA vs Naniwa? He beats a double robo colossi push with mostly ling/bane iirc. If this works I'll add info to the OP, and replays
On August 15 2012 17:57 Grapefruit wrote: The first picture makes you look like such a big douchebag that I didn't even read the first line.
this really, scouting someting and trash talking in game is not cool or manner, also you are diamond so if i were you i would make that pic dissapear from this topic
Didn't expect that picture to offend people, but I guess I'll remove them and replace with one from blade's reps. I said that because 1) I had lost to the all in 3 times in a row already, 2) in my opinion it's a fairly skilless all-in; I can offrace and win every PvZ doing it, and 3) he was almost a full minute late moving out. No matter, you're right that BM has no place in an OP. I'll edit it out.
On August 15 2012 18:16 Kaitokid wrote: the game ended at 21:12 lol.... how is this even a sentry immortal allin game? hahahaha
Well you see, 7 gates of stalkers and cannons can actually prevent instant death but as you see in the minimap, it was 4 bases with 100 drones vs 2 bases, one mined out. It's not like I was going to lose the game. He just prolonged it for as long as possible.
The reason baneling drop is not viable, but mutas are, is because mutas are about base trading, so you don't care you are losing your third hatchery before your mutas even pop, because you are relying on mutas busting down the wall-in at Toss' natural and then your ling/muta just destroys everything instantly, and then you have 30+ mutas to focus whatever Toss remakes once all of your bases are gone.
Baneling drops, are meant to fight straight up with immortal/sentry, so there are problems with it's timing. You are assuming that Toss will fight you when he sees your army, but any smart Toss will just have killed your third, see the baneling+drop tech at your natural, and then go home with a huge lead, or just go straight into your natural, main, and kill you
well you can play it basetrade style as well. no problem there.
if he kills your 3rd and retreats, just countergo and crush him.
optimally you dont want to lose your 3rd but its not that big of a deal. just dont lose any army if you couldnt stall long enough. but it should be possible to stall long enough with lings and some spines at 3rd.
i am going 5:40 1 gas which means banedrop is ready at 10:40. if you like you can take your gas 10-20 sec earlier but usually that just cuts eco and you will easily be able to stall for 10-20 sec.
On August 15 2012 15:40 Belial88 wrote: When I go muta to 'counter' robo play, I hold off on my macro hatch - you actually won't be banking minerals if you macro well, since you are banking gas, and you'll actually need to cut ling production, as 1.5k means you also need to have 1.5k minerals.
So if Toss pushes out, i don't make the macro hatch, but instead prefer to make 3 more spines with that money. If Toss goes for his third, I'll actually take my fourth first, since I'll have total map control with the mutas and there's no issue of trying to defend a push and being spread on 4 bases being a problem.
Quick mutas, like nestea's build, won't autowin against robo expands if the Toss is good with scouting and gets twilght, blink started asap, especially on maps where mutas aren't as good. Although really, I've had a lot of straight up wins with it against robo expands on ladder, it seems to me the later the third, the easier it is to kill them.
I have no idea how pros hold immortal/sentry or why every Toss doesn't do it still. Out of all the times it's been executed correctly, Toss has always been ahead, and except for 2 really stupid games, Toss has always won. Nestea vs Sage or something... muta base trade Hyun vs someone in GSTL muggenheim, roach/ling full base trade, no spines, loses all his bases, literally both players have nothing on the map and eventually hyun has enough units to win made from spread out bases
That's it Then leenock and i think violet, or symbol, on daybreak and cloud kingdom respectively, have had games where Toss kills the third, but toss is a moron and keeps pushing instead of backing off, and loses their entire army on creep, in a corner, with no forcefield left, totally surrounded, by maxed roach/drone/queen, but these games I think Toss really had the game won, just they were dumb.
Then one Toss actually lost going immortal/sentry because he move commanded all his sentries into a full group of lings, and forgot 2 of his 3 immortals with the push. Not sure what was going on with that guy, but he had a superior army and was able to walk to the third unimpeded, if he wasn't braindead he would have easily won that game.
But for some reason, Toss never do this build in pro play and for whatever reason, immortal/sentry isn't around in the current metagame. in WCS korea some toss did this and just rolled the zerg with it.
I just edited my guide and added a ton of content on immortal/sentry. I literally wrote it out the exact same way you did, and I did it 2 days ago. lol. i feel like you copy/pastad exactly what i said. not that i care though, i mean, you link my guide, and copying my guide just means there are two badass guides on TL.
Really? Okay, I'll edit the OP. I always had the resources for one, but we all know how good my macro is Yeah I actually asked why all protoss don't do the all-in...it's a very good question. They should, just throw down 2-3 cannons as you move out, and hope that you aren't playing vs Nestea. Yeah I exaggerated a little, but there's no doubt that mutas are the best thing to get if they go robo. As you said, you have total map control to expand + drone like a madman. I wish I had a GSL pass to watch those games, is it worth getting?
Oh man I'm sorry! I hadn't read that section when I was writing this guide, it was all compiled from the posts about it I've seen around in the various threads. Also, the sentry/immortal section in your guide is double-spoilered, and there was currently no thread discussing the all-in, so this makes it easier to access. I'll take that as a compliment I assure you that the only thing I copy-pasted were the URLs to images, replays, and threads.
Edit: I wouldn't say it's not in the current metagame...WhiteRa did that guide on it with husky, and I've seen it at least 1/5 games against Protoss ever since. I also don't know why Protoss players get +1 armor instead of shields...It makes immortals 10% more OP (jkjk, but it does make them 10% stronger), while beefing up the strength of their walls + cannons against Zerglings. Armor just doesn't do much for any Protoss unit.
Symbol holds this off by roach dropping all over the sentry immortal army. It's hilariously effective, since it completely negates the forcefields.
No he doesn't...
Symbol dropped a Toss who took his third that has some immortals and sentries. He does not use drops to beat an immortal/sentry all-in which is a 6+ gateway all-in that pushes out with 3 immortals by 9:20.
It's like all the people saying Dimaga used bane drops to beat immortal/sentry all-in. He didn't, he used baneling drops against a toss who did a robo expand, and dropped at like 15:00, like 10:00.
Sorry, but I don't think you understand what happened. There's a huge difference from a 2 base all-in defense, and attacking someone who takes a third. You don't say someone goes broodlords to beat colossus all-ins when people get broodlords to beat 3 base toss with colossus.
well you can play it basetrade style as well. no problem there.
if he kills your 3rd and retreats, just countergo and crush him.
optimally you dont want to lose your 3rd but its not that big of a deal. just dont lose any army if you couldnt stall long enough. but it should be possible to stall long enough with lings and some spines at 3rd.
i am going 5:40 1 gas which means banedrop is ready at 10:40. if you like you can take your gas 10-20 sec earlier but usually that just cuts eco and you will easily be able to stall for 10-20 sec.
Drops are not like mutas - they don't work as well in base trades, due to how slow overlords are (i believe there was a video with axslav on prochanman where he goes into this), and you can't just drop on a Toss army and focus down a pylon or nexus like you can with mutas.
Please, post a replay before stating that drops are the answer. There has never been a pro player who has used droptech to hold any sort of 2 base all-in from Toss, including immortal/sentry. The only one zerg that's ever even gone fast lair, is Nestea, and only for 2 games (showcasing his quick muta play). I'm sure in diamond you can get away with a lot of things to beat immortal/sentry all-ins, but you won't be able to handle a 3 immortal push out before 9:20 with drops. There's a huge difference between an immortal/sentry all-in executed at diamond and higher levels of play, and it completely changes what you can possibly do.
On August 16 2012 03:15 Decendos wrote: well you can play it basetrade style as well. no problem there.
if he kills your 3rd and retreats, just countergo and crush him.
optimally you dont want to lose your 3rd but its not that big of a deal. just dont lose any army if you couldnt stall long enough. but it should be possible to stall long enough with lings and some spines at 3rd.
i am going 5:40 1 gas which means banedrop is ready at 10:40. if you like you can take your gas 10-20 sec earlier but usually that just cuts eco and you will easily be able to stall for 10-20 sec.
Something about basetrading with banelings just sounds really freaking stupid. If he kills your third, he's miles ahead, and can just warp in 14 stalkers by the time you get to his base. 10:40 is too late. If good players can get a 4:30 gas and still have 70+ food by 8:00 (skipping roach warren/evo + additional gasses), you shouldn't feel like an early gas kills your eco. I mean, 5:00 double gas sounds pretty good, theorycrafting time: 4:30 gas: First 100 gas obtained ~5:50 Second 100 gas obtained ~6:45 Lair with first 100: Lair finishes at ~7:00-7:15, bane drops done at ~9:15 Lair with second 100: Lair finishes ~8:05, bane drops done at ~10:15
Theoretically, on most maps you could go speed first with a 4:30 gas and get bane drops in time to drop the all-in. The timing is REALLY small, you'd have to have banes pre-morphed with overlords ready. With 5:00 double gas: Lair first: bane drops done at ~9:15 Speed first: bane drops done at ~9:45
I really don't know, and I don't like banelings or drops enough to try out all the various permutations of the build. Feel free to try 2x gas at 5:00 though, seems like you could get ling speed + bane drops done in time for sentry/immortal all-in. As chaos said, you'll have an unnecessary amount of gas with this. In theory you could take guys out of gas...hmm. Would be interesting if people experimented around with this -- theoretically it could be possible.
Edit: I kind of wish I had a high level Protoss to try this stuff out against, would be pretty fun. Apart from the fact that I'd have to die a lot to sentry/immortal.
On August 16 2012 03:15 Decendos wrote: well you can play it basetrade style as well. no problem there.
if he kills your 3rd and retreats, just countergo and crush him.
optimally you dont want to lose your 3rd but its not that big of a deal. just dont lose any army if you couldnt stall long enough. but it should be possible to stall long enough with lings and some spines at 3rd.
i am going 5:40 1 gas which means banedrop is ready at 10:40. if you like you can take your gas 10-20 sec earlier but usually that just cuts eco and you will easily be able to stall for 10-20 sec.
Something about basetrading with banelings just sounds really freaking stupid. If he kills your third, he's miles ahead, and can just warp in 14 stalkers by the time you get to his base. 10:40 is too late. If good players can get a 4:30 gas and still have 70+ food by 8:00 (skipping roach warren/evo + additional gasses), you shouldn't feel like an early gas kills your eco. I mean, 5:00 double gas sounds pretty good, theorycrafting time: 4:30 gas: First 100 gas obtained ~5:50 Second 100 gas obtained ~6:45 Lair with first 100: Lair finishes at ~7:00-7:15, bane drops done at ~9:15 Lair with second 100: Lair finishes ~8:05, bane drops done at ~10:15
Theoretically, on most maps you could go speed first with a 4:30 gas and get bane drops in time to drop the all-in. The timing is REALLY small, you'd have to have banes pre-morphed with overlords ready. With 5:00 double gas: Lair first: bane drops done at ~9:15 Speed first: bane drops done at ~9:45
I really don't know, and I don't like banelings or drops enough to try out all the various permutations of the build. Feel free to try 2x gas at 5:00 though, seems like you could get ling speed + bane drops done in time for sentry/immortal all-in. As chaos said, you'll have an unnecessary amount of gas with this. In theory you could take guys out of gas...hmm. Would be interesting if people experimented around with this -- theoretically it could be possible.
Edit: I kind of wish I had a high level Protoss to try this stuff out against, would be pretty fun. Apart from the fact that I'd have to die a lot to sentry/immortal.
10:40 isnt too late. you can easily premorph banelings (why shouldnt you?) and a good sentry immo all in will arrive at 10:30 IF you do nothing. if you stall with lings its enough time!
On August 16 2012 03:15 Decendos wrote: well you can play it basetrade style as well. no problem there.
if he kills your 3rd and retreats, just countergo and crush him.
optimally you dont want to lose your 3rd but its not that big of a deal. just dont lose any army if you couldnt stall long enough. but it should be possible to stall long enough with lings and some spines at 3rd.
i am going 5:40 1 gas which means banedrop is ready at 10:40. if you like you can take your gas 10-20 sec earlier but usually that just cuts eco and you will easily be able to stall for 10-20 sec.
Something about basetrading with banelings just sounds really freaking stupid. If he kills your third, he's miles ahead, and can just warp in 14 stalkers by the time you get to his base. 10:40 is too late. If good players can get a 4:30 gas and still have 70+ food by 8:00 (skipping roach warren/evo + additional gasses), you shouldn't feel like an early gas kills your eco. I mean, 5:00 double gas sounds pretty good, theorycrafting time: 4:30 gas: First 100 gas obtained ~5:50 Second 100 gas obtained ~6:45 Lair with first 100: Lair finishes at ~7:00-7:15, bane drops done at ~9:15 Lair with second 100: Lair finishes ~8:05, bane drops done at ~10:15
Theoretically, on most maps you could go speed first with a 4:30 gas and get bane drops in time to drop the all-in. The timing is REALLY small, you'd have to have banes pre-morphed with overlords ready. With 5:00 double gas: Lair first: bane drops done at ~9:15 Speed first: bane drops done at ~9:45
I really don't know, and I don't like banelings or drops enough to try out all the various permutations of the build. Feel free to try 2x gas at 5:00 though, seems like you could get ling speed + bane drops done in time for sentry/immortal all-in. As chaos said, you'll have an unnecessary amount of gas with this. In theory you could take guys out of gas...hmm. Would be interesting if people experimented around with this -- theoretically it could be possible.
Edit: I kind of wish I had a high level Protoss to try this stuff out against, would be pretty fun. Apart from the fact that I'd have to die a lot to sentry/immortal.
10:40 isnt too late. you can easily premorph banelings (why shouldnt you?) and a good sentry immo all in will arrive at 10:30 IF you do nothing. if you stall with lings its enough time!
If you have some replays of you beating a well executed sentry/immortal all-in, I'll gladly add the info + reps to the OP! Until then, I don't really believe that it works. It could, but I'd like to see it in action before stating that it's known to work.
Good guide but I could argue if some of those methods are not too risky. What I presonally do is drop a bling nest at 8.30 and morph few banes if he decides to all in. Even without drop banes are awsome against it coz a tiny error in toss ffs means gg for him
I've slammed some clowns who've done this all-in pretty hard with 6 queens and just upgraded ling with some spine. Maybe they were bads. Shit, no maybe... They were bads. It's just that none of these units really "counters" the queen since the range upgrade. I really hate making roaches against this all-in, and base-trading with roach ling can be a little crazy on maps like Shakuras, Ohana, Entombed and anything else with easily defended nat. This does tend to hit before 3 base muta or pathogen glands, so I've become quite the fan of dealing with it using the ling cloud. The problem for my method is a misread when it turns into a colossus build instead.
Im a high master z (1400) and this guide helped me so much. Just by giving me some specifics on ideas of how to hold this off. I honestly have felt like in many situations the battle with this push comes down to purely forcefields but mutas really work!!
Is it ironic that after writing a guide on how to defend this all-in, I lose to it on ladder? I think so. Oh well, better read the guide LOL
Good guide but I could argue if some of those methods are not too risky. What I presonally do is drop a bling nest at 8.30 and morph few banes if he decides to all in. Even without drop banes are awsome against it coz a tiny error in toss ffs means gg for him
True, but immortals and forcefields help Protoss absorb a million banelings without taking much damage. I agree that it would help buy time, because if 3 banelings connect with his sentries he loses the game. I'm definitely going to look into banelings + drops more, it seems much more reliable than the other methods, which are really trying to put out an electrical fire with water.
I've slammed some clowns who've done this all-in pretty hard with 6 queens and just upgraded ling with some spine. Maybe they were bads. Shit, no maybe... They were bads. It's just that none of these units really "counters" the queen since the range upgrade. I really hate making roaches against this all-in, and base-trading with roach ling can be a little crazy on maps like Shakuras, Ohana, Entombed and anything else with easily defended nat. This does tend to hit before 3 base muta or pathogen glands, so I've become quite the fan of dealing with it using the ling cloud. The problem for my method is a misread when it turns into a colossus build instead.
What? Sentries make queens useless with guardian shield, and usually by the time they attack it's 6+ sentries, 3 immortals, and 7-14 stalkers. Queens do 4 DPS if there's guardian shield, and 2 DPS if there's guardian shield and +1 armor. Lings can be forcefielded, you won't hold an upgrade advantage against a Protoss who opens forge first, ever.
I wish for people to post replays of these methods working/not working, I'd like to get up a replay bank! No guide is complete without replays, and I don't feel good enough to post mine. As a side note, the last 4 Protoss players have done this all-in to me haha.
Im a high master z (1400) and this guide helped me so much. Just by giving me some specifics on ideas of how to hold this off. I honestly have felt like in many situations the battle with this push comes down to purely forcefields but mutas really work!!
Glad to hear it! Yeah, honestly it's not that good an all-in unless executed perfectly. And with proper macro and strategy it should be easy to hold! I still lose to it a lot, hooray for being a noob! (Y) So when you say mutas really work, do you mean with Nestea's opening, or a more standard gasless 3 hatch build into fast lair/mutas?
On August 16 2012 06:26 Mavvie wrote: Is it ironic that after writing a guide on how to defend this all-in, I lose to it on ladder? I think so. Oh well, better read the guide LOL
Good guide but I could argue if some of those methods are not too risky. What I presonally do is drop a bling nest at 8.30 and morph few banes if he decides to all in. Even without drop banes are awsome against it coz a tiny error in toss ffs means gg for him
True, but immortals and forcefields help Protoss absorb a million banelings without taking much damage. I agree that it would help buy time, because if 3 banelings connect with his sentries he loses the game. I'm definitely going to look into banelings + drops more, it seems much more reliable than the other methods, which are really trying to put out an electrical fire with water.
I've slammed some clowns who've done this all-in pretty hard with 6 queens and just upgraded ling with some spine. Maybe they were bads. Shit, no maybe... They were bads. It's just that none of these units really "counters" the queen since the range upgrade. I really hate making roaches against this all-in, and base-trading with roach ling can be a little crazy on maps like Shakuras, Ohana, Entombed and anything else with easily defended nat. This does tend to hit before 3 base muta or pathogen glands, so I've become quite the fan of dealing with it using the ling cloud. The problem for my method is a misread when it turns into a colossus build instead.
What? Sentries make queens useless with guardian shield, and usually by the time they attack it's 6+ sentries, 3 immortals, and 7-14 stalkers. Queens do 4 DPS if there's guardian shield, and 2 DPS if there's guardian shield and +1 armor. Lings can be forcefielded, you won't hold an upgrade advantage against a Protoss who opens forge first, ever.
I wish for people to post replays of these methods working/not working, I'd like to get up a replay bank! No guide is complete without replays, and I don't feel good enough to post mine. As a side note, the last 4 Protoss players have done this all-in to me haha.
Im a high master z (1400) and this guide helped me so much. Just by giving me some specifics on ideas of how to hold this off. I honestly have felt like in many situations the battle with this push comes down to purely forcefields but mutas really work!!
Glad to hear it! Yeah, honestly it's not that good an all-in unless executed perfectly. And with proper macro and strategy it should be easy to hold! I still lose to it a lot, hooray for being a noob! (Y) So when you say mutas really work, do you mean with Nestea's opening, or a more standard gasless 3 hatch build into fast lair/mutas?
I don't play against GMs, so why bother? Also, I did say the people I've beaten who do this all-in using my lazy method are most likely bad, or at least worse than me (also bad).
When trying to use roach ling, make sure you have both roaches and lings on all sides of your flank. If you hit with roaches from one side and lings from the other, it's pretty easy to forcefield you out while still killing many units. If you have roach/ling on both sides, it's much harder and he needs to use more than twice as many forcefields.
Also I know we are all very greedy with our inject,. but a bit of creep really does help out so much.
On August 16 2012 07:44 Oboeman wrote: When trying to use roach ling, make sure you have both roaches and lings on all sides of your flank. If you hit with roaches from one side and lings from the other, it's pretty easy to forcefield you out while still killing many units. If you have roach/ling on both sides, it's much harder and he needs to use more than twice as many forcefields.
Also I know we are all very greedy with our inject,. but a bit of creep really does help out so much.
Good point, I'll add that in now. Creep spread is terrifically good at helping with engagements against sentry/immortal. And while you're right about flank with roach/ling on both sides, I find it takes too much time and APM for my mind to muster, but I'll add a note about that as well.
The most important thing though is to scout it. When playing Zerg. That way, I believe this can be stopped with infestor ling. The scouting has to be nearly perfect but you will never die if you see this coming. The main reason this kills people is because it looks like an expand build and some people will expand ;p
On August 16 2012 08:51 ODKStevez wrote: The most important thing though is to scout it. When playing Zerg. That way, I believe this can be stopped with infestor ling. The scouting has to be nearly perfect but you will never die if you see this coming. The main reason this kills people is because it looks like an expand build and some people will expand ;p
I've never heard of infestors being used against this. I guess FG kills sentries very well, but really... Also timing is an issue. I believe infestors take as long as Baneling drops, but you need to have gas for 4+ infestors at 31 seconds into pathogen glands. Doubt it's viable, I'd love to see a replay! No, robo expands aren't that much like all-ins. In an expand, he will take a third and play defensive. In an all-in, he moves out of his base and goes to yours.
On August 16 2012 08:51 ODKStevez wrote: The most important thing though is to scout it. When playing Zerg. That way, I believe this can be stopped with infestor ling. The scouting has to be nearly perfect but you will never die if you see this coming. The main reason this kills people is because it looks like an expand build and some people will expand ;p
I've never heard of infestors being used against this. I guess FG kills sentries very well, but really... Also timing is an issue. I believe infestors take as long as Baneling drops, but you need to have gas for 4+ infestors at 31 seconds into pathogen glands. Doubt it's viable, I'd love to see a replay! No, robo expands aren't that much like all-ins. In an expand, he will take a third and play defensive. In an all-in, he moves out of his base and goes to yours.
2 base ling/infestor will crush it but you won't get 3 base infestors out in time unless you are like not droning and go lair really fast.
Ah, understandable. Also, only an idiot would would continue with the all-in upon scouting no third. Even with a 4:30 gas -> speed -> lair it's too late? Spire (100 seconds) + mutas (~30 seconds) == Infestation pit(50 seconds) + Pathogen glands (80 seconds) if my math is correct...It's possible, but I think the hard part would be having the necessary amount of gas (600+) by 31/80 on pathogen glands. Theorycrafting still, and it's never been used as by a pro as an answer.
Edit: Blade, I played a game against this all-in on ladder, went to basetrade, but saw 5 cannons and was like "shit gg". What do you do if you've already heavily invested into roaches, but can't basetrade?
On August 16 2012 02:43 Belial88 wrote: The reason baneling drop is not viable, but mutas are, is because mutas are about base trading, so you don't care you are losing your third hatchery before your mutas even pop, because you are relying on mutas busting down the wall-in at Toss' natural and then your ling/muta just destroys everything instantly, and then you have 30+ mutas to focus whatever Toss remakes once all of your bases are gone.
Baneling drops, are meant to fight straight up with immortal/sentry, so there are problems with it's timing. You are assuming that Toss will fight you when he sees your army, but any smart Toss will just have killed your third, see the baneling+drop tech at your natural, and then go home with a huge lead, or just go straight into your natural, main, and kill you
In my experience the above is wrong insfoar that drops will be ready in time and wrong insofar that you can in fact beat a toss that has just destroyed your third.
I haven't got time to post a detailed guide but baneling drops are fully viable against early sentry immortal (in my experience - GM SEA, GM-level NA)
The reason why people think it is not ready in time, is because they use standard Stephano timings on gas.
If you are comfortable and competent with a ling-bling style, you drop gasses earlier because you don't need an enormous economy to support the very inefficient Roach. If you watch Dimaga's stream, you'll see him holding 2 base all-ins with hardly any saturation on his third.
My personal build is to go double gas at 36 but massively delay your 3rd and 4th gas. If you see gasses at his nat (which he'll have to take by the time you're @100 gas if he's doing an early sentry immortal). Then you go lair first and it is out WAY in time.
This is not also to mention the fact that if you commit to a ling heavy style, you can MASSIVELY stall your opponents push. That is because, as mentioned in the OP, sentry immortal is very susceptible to mass ling.
Finally, MANY a time I have committed to this style and have indeed not gotten drops out of time, due to sloppiness or a misread on my part, etc. I have lost my third and gone ahead and crushed him. The reason is simple and it's sad that so many people refuse to challenge the metagame and realise the following. Ling-bling is the natural counter to everything in the sentry immortal push. So long as you can get over forcefields, you'll beat it EASILY in a straight up fight. So if you have had mining at your third for some time and are caught with your pants down massing your army, you should still have a sizeable army, and even you lose your third then and there, you should still be able to defeat his army if you chase it down. I have done this many times and it has worked....
On August 16 2012 09:47 Mavvie wrote: Ah, understandable. Also, only an idiot would would continue with the all-in upon scouting no third. Even with a 4:30 gas -> speed -> lair it's too late? Spire (100 seconds) + mutas (~30 seconds) == Infestation pit(50 seconds) + Pathogen glands (80 seconds) if my math is correct...It's possible, but I think the hard part would be having the necessary amount of gas (600+) by 31/80 on pathogen glands. Theorycrafting still, and it's never been used as by a pro as an answer.
Edit: Blade, I played a game against this all-in on ladder, went to basetrade, but saw 5 cannons and was like "shit gg". What do you do if you've already heavily invested into roaches, but can't basetrade?
It's close enough that you don't have enough fungals even if the infestors come out barely in time. You may have enough to kill the sentries (if he bunches them up) but you don't have the meat of a ground army needed to overwhelm it, even if there are no forcefields, because you went fast infestor, not roach ling. You need to engage him while you are fungalling (to protect the infestors, because you can't spare energy to carpet his entire army) which means you are losing units to his first round of forcefields anyway.
The difference between the viability of infestor and baneling drop, is that baneling drop doesn't need time to build up energy, and it kills everything right away, instead of hurting stuff slowly over time.
but you'd be surprised how many people blindly 2-base all in even if you go 2-base infestor. I don't recommend this as a viable alternative, but so many protoss players don't actually scout.
On August 16 2012 09:47 Mavvie wrote: Ah, understandable. Also, only an idiot would would continue with the all-in upon scouting no third. Even with a 4:30 gas -> speed -> lair it's too late? Spire (100 seconds) + mutas (~30 seconds) == Infestation pit(50 seconds) + Pathogen glands (80 seconds) if my math is correct...It's possible, but I think the hard part would be having the necessary amount of gas (600+) by 31/80 on pathogen glands. Theorycrafting still, and it's never been used as by a pro as an answer.
Edit: Blade, I played a game against this all-in on ladder, went to basetrade, but saw 5 cannons and was like "shit gg". What do you do if you've already heavily invested into roaches, but can't basetrade?
If you got gas at 4:30 I imagine you could get mutas/infestors in time for the push but have to start an early lair and I don't think it's worth it.
For your question you should have way more then enough roach/ling to continue with the base trade. I do anyway, I mean when I do a base trade I must have at minimum 15+ roaches with about 20+ lings. If going the base trade style you should have about that much minimum and you will easily crush through 5 cannons.
10:40 isnt too late. you can easily premorph banelings (why shouldnt you?) and a good sentry immo all in will arrive at 10:30 IF you do nothing. if you stall with lings its enough time!
10:40 is way too late... Toss will have killed your third already, and should be halfway done killing your natural, while he forcefields off your slow banelings easily. A good immortal/sentry all-in will arrive at 10:30 at the latest, it should be there around 10:00-10:15. You can't really stall with lings, a good toss will move out unimpeded instead of chasing lings like a dumb dog after a car.
Good guide but I could argue if some of those methods are not too risky. What I presonally do is drop a bling nest at 8.30 and morph few banes if he decides to all in. Even without drop banes are awsome against it coz a tiny error in toss ffs means gg for him
Tiny error? Toss has zero macro to do at home once he pushes out, he only needs to watch his army for the rest of the game. I don't think even diamonds would make such a huge mistake...
You are relying on toss making a huge blunder for your strat to work. That isn't really viable at higher levels of play.
They were bads. It's just that none of these units really "counters" the queen since the range upgrade. I really hate making roaches against this all-in, and base-trading with roach ling can be a little crazy on maps like Shakuras, Ohana, Entombed and anything else with easily defended nat. This does tend to hit before 3 base muta or pathogen glands, so I've become quite the fan of dealing with it using the ling cloud. The problem for my method is a misread when it turns into a colossus build instead.
Immortals rape armored units, like queens... Forcefields, sentries, stalkers, they all rape queens too. A zealot beats a queen 1v1. Sounds like you just played bads ;/
Also, any sort of colossus 2 base all-in is easily held with roach/ling. if you are having trouble against colossus all-ins, then it's just because of poor macro.
Unlike what many low level people will say, it's not about infestors, it's not about bane drops, it's about good macro. With good macro, roach/ling can crush this, as can unconventional base trade play.
Im a high master z (1400) and this guide helped me so much. Just by giving me some specifics on ideas of how to hold this off. I honestly have felt like in many situations the battle with this push comes down to purely forcefields but mutas really work!!
Check out my guide then. This guide is literally a copy of posts I've made, and the big update I did to my guide a few days ago -_-
I don't play against GMs, so why bother? Also, I did say the people I've beaten who do this all-in using my lazy method are most likely bad, or at least worse than me (also bad).
Because if you do the 'correct' response, it's even easier to beat.
The best way to beat immortal/sentry is just solid macro. Make a shitton of lings, not that many roaches, set up flanks, and you should crush immortal/sentry, as long as you don't lose too many lings trying to force out forcefields or kill pylons.
The most important thing though is to scout it. When playing Zerg. That way, I believe this can be stopped with infestor ling. The scouting has to be nearly perfect but you will never die if you see this coming. The main reason this kills people is because it looks like an expand build and some people will expand ;p
Scouting this build isn't really that big a deal - if you respond to it as you would any other double gas opening by Toss, by droning hard to 8:00-8:30, you'll be fine. You really don't need to start the roach warren until very late, like 8:30+, as in when lair is done, which is when an overseer will see what he's doing (if you didn't notice already). It's engaging it, that is the hardest thing to do. Only thing I can see really hurting is if you suspect air/DT play due to the gas taken and make spores and hurt your econ a bit doing that.
I wouldn't say scouting is the key factor to beating this though. Pumping mass lings like you would even if you thought Toss was taking a quick third, after greedily droning up to 8:30, and then making a dozen roaches when you see toss push out, will hold this. You actually want to be as greedy as possible when against this build, so if you know someone is doing this, I'd recommend delaying gas, lair, and roach warren specfically. I'm thinking double evo might be good against this though.
So, you decided to make the thread you asked in simple question & simple answer. Thank you for your time and effort you put into this great thread with more potential.
Some experts are here on this thread, so I will just add some resources people might find useful. Add them to OP if needed.
as a high master toss who usually does immortal all-ins (and i garuntee i could probably mop the floor with any diamond zerg using it... no offense just saying all guides written by diamonds should be taken with a grain of salt) I will say something that usually completely rapes me
most zergs dont do this but ive faced it a few times
fast 3hatches, fast 2gas, 2queens only, and lair before speed. then 2more gasses as lairs going up, 45 drones, muta rush
its hard to scout the fast lair because of the 5range queen + a couple zerglings. you can barely scout the 2gas in the natural.
pump pure drones to 45, then start making lings once you have 45 drones. plus the spire after lair. then as your pumping mutas get up to 52 drones (26 main, 26 natural, which is 1base full saturation) and because your third is vulnerable only send like 8drones to your third until your 100% confident your third is safe then send more.
mutas hit by the time immortal sentry comes out. also you only send like 6 drones initially to your third and construct a spine in your natural at about 7minutes. if a super fast 7minute gateway+zealot+few stalker attack hits your third just run away the drones to your natural and mutas should be raping the toss soon who cut plenty to get out a 7minute warpgate zealot attack
mutas hit hard and fast, before stargates, before anything. they rape my probes then snipe all my sentrys then speedlings overrun me with no forcefields
The reason why people think it is not ready in time, is because they use standard Stephano timings on gas.
If you are comfortable and competent with a ling-bling style, you drop gasses earlier because you don't need an enormous economy to support the very inefficient Roach. If you watch Dimaga's stream, you'll see him holding 2 base all-ins with hardly any saturation on his third.
My personal build is to go double gas at 36 but massively delay your 3rd and 4th gas. If you see gasses at his nat (which he'll have to take by the time you're @100 gas if he's doing an early sentry immortal). Then you go lair first and it is out WAY in time.
This is not also to mention the fact that if you commit to a ling heavy style, you can MASSIVELY stall your opponents push. That is because, as mentioned in the OP, sentry immortal is very susceptible to mass ling.
How do you respond to other 2-base all-ins (especially the ones that hit earlier) with your gas timings. Do you rely primarily on denying the pylon with speedlings?
The reason why the stephano gas timings are so well-loved is because it works so damn well for everything. The immortal all-in is the only thing that is actually difficult to stop, but still fine.
The reason why people think it is not ready in time, is because they use standard Stephano timings on gas.
If you are comfortable and competent with a ling-bling style, you drop gasses earlier because you don't need an enormous economy to support the very inefficient Roach. If you watch Dimaga's stream, you'll see him holding 2 base all-ins with hardly any saturation on his third.
My personal build is to go double gas at 36 but massively delay your 3rd and 4th gas. If you see gasses at his nat (which he'll have to take by the time you're @100 gas if he's doing an early sentry immortal). Then you go lair first and it is out WAY in time.
This is not also to mention the fact that if you commit to a ling heavy style, you can MASSIVELY stall your opponents push. That is because, as mentioned in the OP, sentry immortal is very susceptible to mass ling.
How do you respond to other 2-base all-ins (especially the ones that hit earlier) with your gas timings. Do you rely primarily on denying the pylon with speedlings?
The reason why the stephano gas timings are so well-loved is because it works so damn well for everything. The immortal all-in is the only thing that is actually difficult to stop, but still fine.
It doesn't affect your overall economy that much. You just your first 2 gas earlier, and your second two later. So you can tech to lair early if you need (which you do if you see toss has 4 gas). Therefore, you end up having about the same amount of gas.
You can hold the other 2-base all-ins as well, quite easily. You can hold them with ling-bling, but, if you like you can always throw down a roach warren if you don't scout gas at toss's nat. Of course, scouting is key. Having 2 gas at 36 instead of 44 doesn't make that much of a difference to holding a 7gate all in, but it makes a huge difference holding a sentry immortal all-in with drops.
10:40 isnt too late. you can easily premorph banelings (why shouldnt you?) and a good sentry immo all in will arrive at 10:30 IF you do nothing. if you stall with lings its enough time!
10:40 is way too late... Toss will have killed your third already, and should be halfway done killing your natural, while he forcefields off your slow banelings easily. A good immortal/sentry all-in will arrive at 10:30 at the latest, it should be there around 10:00-10:15. You can't really stall with lings, a good toss will move out unimpeded instead of chasing lings like a dumb dog after a car.
obviously you havent tried it. if he moves out with sentry/immo only and doesnt FF my lings and 4-6 banes he just outright dies. if he FF you just stalled for 15 sec which is already enough.
if he arrvies at 10:00-10:15 at my base it means he has to move out even earlier and has like 7 sentrys and 2-3 immos.
i dont know why you keep telling its not ready and want to go muta yourself (which takes even a little longer to research as banelingdrop!). please try it. i will upload the next good replay that hits early enough.
btw: just watched the replays of your ZvP thread where you and savior defend the sentry immo all in. P arrived at about 11:50, 11:30 and 11:00 at the Z bases in that replays. in all these replays banedrop would be easily be ready.
grubby does a pretty much perfect sentry immo push which leaves the base at 9:30 with 2 zealots, 3 immos and 7 sentrys. it arrives at 10:30 at rets 3rd WITHOUT stalling a single second from ret! if you send some ling bling at 9:30 into the above mentioned units he HAS to FF = 15 sec = a prolevel sentry immo all in after stalling will arrive at about 10:45.
On August 16 2012 08:51 ODKStevez wrote: The most important thing though is to scout it. When playing Zerg. That way, I believe this can be stopped with infestor ling. The scouting has to be nearly perfect but you will never die if you see this coming. The main reason this kills people is because it looks like an expand build and some people will expand ;p
I've never heard of infestors being used against this. I guess FG kills sentries very well, but really... Also timing is an issue. I believe infestors take as long as Baneling drops, but you need to have gas for 4+ infestors at 31 seconds into pathogen glands. Doubt it's viable, I'd love to see a replay! No, robo expands aren't that much like all-ins. In an expand, he will take a third and play defensive. In an all-in, he moves out of his base and goes to yours.
2 base ling/infestor will crush it but you won't get 3 base infestors out in time unless you are like not droning and go lair really fast.
You can get infestors out to stop the push (3 base), but you just to spine up like crazy in order to delay until they arrive.
Glad to hear it! Yeah, honestly it's not that good an all-in unless executed perfectly. And with proper macro and strategy it should be easy to hold! I still lose to it a lot, hooray for being a noob! (Y) So when you say mutas really work, do you mean with Nestea's opening, or a more standard gasless 3 hatch build into fast lair/mutas?
Ive made my own response. I open standard 3 hatch and lately instead of 2 gas at 6 i get 3 gas at 6.30. So when i see robo and 2 gas i get my 3 gas and an extra queen and go up to hive asap and start spreading creep like a madman. So i get a roach warren at like 7 ish just in case but go double evo. At half lairtech i get rest of my gas and squeeze in an extra hatch. Mutas should be making around the time he is at midmap so you can either try to delay him and kill it with mutas or go for a ling counter and spine up at your nat. Works like a charm
On August 16 2012 14:53 kaokentake wrote: as a high master toss who usually does immortal all-ins (and i garuntee i could probably mop the floor with any diamond zerg using it... no offense just saying all guides written by diamonds should be taken with a grain of salt) I will say something that usually completely rapes me
most zergs dont do this but ive faced it a few times
fast 3hatches, fast 2gas, 2queens only, and lair before speed. then 2more gasses as lairs going up, 45 drones, muta rush
its hard to scout the fast lair because of the 5range queen + a couple zerglings. you can barely scout the 2gas in the natural.
pump pure drones to 45, then start making lings once you have 45 drones. plus the spire after lair. then as your pumping mutas get up to 52 drones (26 main, 26 natural, which is 1base full saturation) and because your third is vulnerable only send like 8drones to your third until your 100% confident your third is safe then send more.
mutas hit by the time immortal sentry comes out. also you only send like 6 drones initially to your third and construct a spine in your natural at about 7minutes. if a super fast 7minute gateway+zealot+few stalker attack hits your third just run away the drones to your natural and mutas should be raping the toss soon who cut plenty to get out a 7minute warpgate zealot attack
mutas hit hard and fast, before stargates, before anything. they rape my probes then snipe all my sentrys then speedlings overrun me with no forcefields
Im sorry but this is not a very nice mindset coming in to a guide like this. It is obvious that the guide is not written based on his personal games. He obviously studied a lot of games writing this guide up and no matter what league you are it should provide you with a good framework to work from. How dare you come in here on a high horse with a master acc and say the guide should be taken with a grain of salt just because the writer is in diamond league?
On August 16 2012 11:22 Belial88 wrote: Immortals rape armored units, like queens... Forcefields, sentries, stalkers, they all rape queens too. A zealot beats a queen 1v1. Sounds like you just played bads ;/
This part bothered me, especially because you are great guide writer, and seems you know a lot about the game, but you don't know that Queens aren't light nor armored. They are just Psionic, they don't have natural counter. Sure, Forcefields, Guardian Shield and Zealots that do great damage beat Queens, but Immortals and Stalkers really aren't doing much against them.
Not that I disagree with you, Queens are pretty useless, it just gives wrong impression on what units are good against the others.
On August 16 2012 14:53 kaokentake wrote: as a high master toss who usually does immortal all-ins (and i garuntee i could probably mop the floor with any diamond zerg using it... no offense just saying all guides written by diamonds should be taken with a grain of salt) I will say something that usually completely rapes me
most zergs dont do this but ive faced it a few times
fast 3hatches, fast 2gas, 2queens only, and lair before speed. then 2more gasses as lairs going up, 45 drones, muta rush
its hard to scout the fast lair because of the 5range queen + a couple zerglings. you can barely scout the 2gas in the natural.
pump pure drones to 45, then start making lings once you have 45 drones. plus the spire after lair. then as your pumping mutas get up to 52 drones (26 main, 26 natural, which is 1base full saturation) and because your third is vulnerable only send like 8drones to your third until your 100% confident your third is safe then send more.
mutas hit by the time immortal sentry comes out. also you only send like 6 drones initially to your third and construct a spine in your natural at about 7minutes. if a super fast 7minute gateway+zealot+few stalker attack hits your third just run away the drones to your natural and mutas should be raping the toss soon who cut plenty to get out a 7minute warpgate zealot attack
mutas hit hard and fast, before stargates, before anything. they rape my probes then snipe all my sentrys then speedlings overrun me with no forcefields
Im sorry but this is not a very nice mindset coming in to a guide like this. It is obvious that the guide is not written based on his personal games. He obviously studied a lot of games writing this guide up and no matter what league you are it should provide you with a good framework to work from. How dare you come in here on a high horse with a master acc and say the guide should be taken with a grain of salt just because the writer is in diamond league?
I couldn't agree more especially when OP is trying to be a "compiler" of resources. When those master players are busy playing their own games, this OP was actually trying to help his fellow Zerg players. Before this thread, we had 12 [H] threads for "immortal sentry" search and literally ZERO [G] threads on this except for comprehensive guide like Belial's. So many players were having trouble with this build, yet not many of those who actually knew the idea how to deal came forward to write a guide. I am glad to have this diamond OP in our community much more than top master who is busy playing. Don't mix this OP with some diamond theorycrafters.
I'm a top master/GM busy playing and I still don't know any clear cut way to beat it even knowing it's coming at you. I discussed it with some pros and none really have clear answers either.
There's a replay showing that drop tech and banelings most definitely can be done in time for the 9:30 push. Infact, it would be more beneficial if he actually attacked right away. In the end I lost due to terrible, terrible control and decision making on my zerglings ( and a supply block right before I was going to make a last huge round of ling-roach. But it shows that it can definitely be used ( if controlled properly, much like the roach-ling way of defending it ) against this all in.
To clarify, I took my gas before the 5 minute mark, then had two gas geysers up at 6:00, went speed before lair and still got the drop tech in time for the dreaded 10:15 mark that he can be shelling away at my hatch. If he retreats, fine, I get more time to get a larger army out. If he attacks right then, I should just drop down on the sentries and flood in with my army.
Mid-master toss here. First of all, this is thread should not be labeled [G] but [D] instead.
I think that in order to hold an immortal sentry all-in, you just have to have ENOUGH units. By enough, I mean enough stuff to kill him. In my opinion, the units composition does not matter much. You need to delay this push as long as possible to have ENOUGH units. You also need to choose a good location to engage/bait ff. Holding this all-in requires you to have solid larva injects and muti-tasking skills. I think that people in lower leagues tend to lose to this because they just don't have ENOUGH units to kill the main army. The best way to hold this all-in, imo, would be making a large roach ling army then flank the protoss. You should also add 1-3 spines in your third but position them carefully so they dont create a choke for you army.
The point I am trying to make is that players in lower leagues should be focusing on their macro skills instead of messing with the army composition(like ling/bling) to hold this all-in. With good control and macro, you will be able to hold this all-in most of the time.
On August 16 2012 02:43 Belial88 wrote: The reason baneling drop is not viable, but mutas are, is because mutas are about base trading, so you don't care you are losing your third hatchery before your mutas even pop, because you are relying on mutas busting down the wall-in at Toss' natural and then your ling/muta just destroys everything instantly, and then you have 30+ mutas to focus whatever Toss remakes once all of your bases are gone.
Baneling drops, are meant to fight straight up with immortal/sentry, so there are problems with it's timing. You are assuming that Toss will fight you when he sees your army, but any smart Toss will just have killed your third, see the baneling+drop tech at your natural, and then go home with a huge lead, or just go straight into your natural, main, and kill you
In my experience the above is wrong insfoar that drops will be ready in time and wrong insofar that you can in fact beat a toss that has just destroyed your third.
I haven't got time to post a detailed guide but baneling drops are fully viable against early sentry immortal (in my experience - GM SEA, GM-level NA)
The reason why people think it is not ready in time, is because they use standard Stephano timings on gas.
If you are comfortable and competent with a ling-bling style, you drop gasses earlier because you don't need an enormous economy to support the very inefficient Roach. If you watch Dimaga's stream, you'll see him holding 2 base all-ins with hardly any saturation on his third.
My personal build is to go double gas at 36 but massively delay your 3rd and 4th gas. If you see gasses at his nat (which he'll have to take by the time you're @100 gas if he's doing an early sentry immortal). Then you go lair first and it is out WAY in time.
This is not also to mention the fact that if you commit to a ling heavy style, you can MASSIVELY stall your opponents push. That is because, as mentioned in the OP, sentry immortal is very susceptible to mass ling.
Finally, MANY a time I have committed to this style and have indeed not gotten drops out of time, due to sloppiness or a misread on my part, etc. I have lost my third and gone ahead and crushed him. The reason is simple and it's sad that so many people refuse to challenge the metagame and realise the following. Ling-bling is the natural counter to everything in the sentry immortal push. So long as you can get over forcefields, you'll beat it EASILY in a straight up fight. So if you have had mining at your third for some time and are caught with your pants down massing your army, you should still have a sizeable army, and even you lose your third then and there, you should still be able to defeat his army if you chase it down. I have done this many times and it has worked....
My 2 cents.
*ling-bling-drops advocate checking in*
Very interesting. This is what I had hoped for: as the discussion continues, I'm becoming more of a believer in baneling drops. At least, I'm sure they'd work at my level, noobs move out at 10:30 haha. I think the answer to beat this all-in is definitely with high-tech, flying units. Why not broodlords? just kidding, but drops and mutas should be quite viable.
On August 16 2012 17:44 Luxuria. wrote: nice!! does stephano style roaches beat this all in?
Meh, Stephano goes roach/ling, not just pure roach. So it falls under the first method, trying to get a good engagement with roach/ling. Flanks and creep are key.
Glad to hear it! Yeah, honestly it's not that good an all-in unless executed perfectly. And with proper macro and strategy it should be easy to hold! I still lose to it a lot, hooray for being a noob! (Y) So when you say mutas really work, do you mean with Nestea's opening, or a more standard gasless 3 hatch build into fast lair/mutas?
Ive made my own response. I open standard 3 hatch and lately instead of 2 gas at 6 i get 3 gas at 6.30. So when i see robo and 2 gas i get my 3 gas and an extra queen and go up to hive asap and start spreading creep like a madman. So i get a roach warren at like 7 ish just in case but go double evo. At half lairtech i get rest of my gas and squeeze in an extra hatch. Mutas should be making around the time he is at midmap so you can either try to delay him and kill it with mutas or go for a ling counter and spine up at your nat. Works like a charm
Ok I'm sure you meant rush lair/spire asap. I've tried this, but you won't get mutas in time. You also don't need a roach warren/evo if you scout double gas at natural. Also, if he's doing an all-in, double evo won't help at all. Good ideas though, honestly this is similar to what I do on ladder if I scout 3 gas by 6:30 (come on protoss, make up your minds!)
You have to start lair by 6:45 to have mutas out in time. With your gas timings, your geysers will be halfway done. You won't get lair until ~7:15-7:30. Way too late.
On August 16 2012 14:53 kaokentake wrote: as a high master toss who usually does immortal all-ins (and i garuntee i could probably mop the floor with any diamond zerg using it... no offense just saying all guides written by diamonds should be taken with a grain of salt) I will say something that usually completely rapes me
most zergs dont do this but ive faced it a few times
fast 3hatches, fast 2gas, 2queens only, and lair before speed. then 2more gasses as lairs going up, 45 drones, muta rush
its hard to scout the fast lair because of the 5range queen + a couple zerglings. you can barely scout the 2gas in the natural.
pump pure drones to 45, then start making lings once you have 45 drones. plus the spire after lair. then as your pumping mutas get up to 52 drones (26 main, 26 natural, which is 1base full saturation) and because your third is vulnerable only send like 8drones to your third until your 100% confident your third is safe then send more.
mutas hit by the time immortal sentry comes out. also you only send like 6 drones initially to your third and construct a spine in your natural at about 7minutes. if a super fast 7minute gateway+zealot+few stalker attack hits your third just run away the drones to your natural and mutas should be raping the toss soon who cut plenty to get out a 7minute warpgate zealot attack
mutas hit hard and fast, before stargates, before anything. they rape my probes then snipe all my sentrys then speedlings overrun me with no forcefields
Im sorry but this is not a very nice mindset coming in to a guide like this. It is obvious that the guide is not written based on his personal games. He obviously studied a lot of games writing this guide up and no matter what league you are it should provide you with a good framework to work from. How dare you come in here on a high horse with a master acc and say the guide should be taken with a grain of salt just because the writer is in diamond league?
I couldn't agree more especially when OP is trying to be a "compiler" of resources. When those master players are busy playing their own games, this OP was actually trying to help his fellow Zerg players. Before this thread, we had 12 [H] threads for "immortal sentry" search and literally ZERO [G] threads on this except for comprehensive guide like Belial's. So many players were having trouble with this build, yet not many of those who actually knew the idea how to deal came forward to write a guide. I am glad to have this diamond OP in our community much more than top master who is busy playing. Don't mix this OP with some diamond theorycrafters.
Thanks guys, means a lot! ^^ Although he clearly misinterpreted the OP, I see his point; I wouldn't want to read a guide on some diamond player's unique method of defending this all-in.
There's a replay showing that drop tech and banelings most definitely can be done in time for the 9:30 push. Infact, it would be more beneficial if he actually attacked right away. In the end I lost due to terrible, terrible control and decision making on my zerglings ( and a supply block right before I was going to make a last huge round of ling-roach. But it shows that it can definitely be used ( if controlled properly, much like the roach-ling way of defending it ) against this all in.
To clarify, I took my gas before the 5 minute mark, then had two gas geysers up at 6:00, went speed before lair and still got the drop tech in time for the dreaded 10:15 mark that he can be shelling away at my hatch. If he retreats, fine, I get more time to get a larger army out. If he attacks right then, I should just drop down on the sentries and flood in with my army.
Awesome, I'll be sure to check it out once I get back to my computer! Very interesting, I'm liking this banerain idea a lot now. What do you do if he does a robo or twilight expand instead of all in?
Mid-master toss here. First of all, this is thread should not be labeled [G] but [D] instead.
I think that in order to hold an immortal sentry all-in, you just have to have ENOUGH units. By enough, I mean enough stuff to kill him. In my opinion, the units composition does not matter much. You need to delay this push as long as possible to have ENOUGH units. You also need to choose a good location to engage/bait ff. Holding this all-in requires you to have solid larva injects and muti-tasking skills. I think that people in lower leagues tend to lose to this because they just don't have ENOUGH units to kill the main army. The best way to hold this all-in, imo, would be making a large roach ling army then flank the protoss. You should also add 1-3 spines in your third but position them carefully so they dont create a choke for you army.
The point I am trying to make is that players in lower leagues should be focusing on their macro skills instead of messing with the army composition(like ling/bling) to hold this all-in. With good control and macro, you will be able to hold this all-in most of the time.
That's why I labelled it both Just not the actual thread title, but I can't edit that and it's no big deal Yeah you're right about macro, but sentry/immortal is one of those very unforgiving all-ins that if you just 1a into, you'll lose. Even if you're maxed at 10:00. You're right, flanks are everything. However, this might not actually be the best way of defending the all-in.
There's a replay showing that drop tech and banelings most definitely can be done in time for the 9:30 push. Infact, it would be more beneficial if he actually attacked right away. In the end I lost due to terrible, terrible control and decision making on my zerglings ( and a supply block right before I was going to make a last huge round of ling-roach. But it shows that it can definitely be used ( if controlled properly, much like the roach-ling way of defending it ) against this all in.
To clarify, I took my gas before the 5 minute mark, then had two gas geysers up at 6:00, went speed before lair and still got the drop tech in time for the dreaded 10:15 mark that he can be shelling away at my hatch. If he retreats, fine, I get more time to get a larger army out. If he attacks right then, I should just drop down on the sentries and flood in with my army.
Awesome, I'll be sure to check it out once I get back to my computer! Very interesting, I'm liking this banerain idea a lot now. What do you do if he does a robo or twilight expand instead of all in?
If he goes for an expand, you have drops to pressure. You're safe to transition into post-2base-allin-defending compositions like muta or infestor broodlord. What I like to do if I want to put pressure on him is posture my army out infront of his third, force out a warp in and then move in with 3 overlords into the main to snipe the probes or the nexus there. Zerg drops are fairly underutilized in ZvP but the possibilities are pretty much as endless as Terran drops.
In any of the immortal sentry defences your macro has to be impeccable though, that won't change.
On August 15 2012 15:59 734pot wrote: Is it possible to get baneling drops in time if you skip the +1/+1 and speed before lair using a 4:30 gas?
dont think so because that would be a very early lair timing if you take into account lair build time and research build time, you would need like a 730 ish lair id say, but your drone count would be significantly lower so banedrops are not as viable for that reason this early on.
Stephano beats this because his engagements are always flawless. He never engages in a choke where forcefields can ruin his day, and I imagine he's successful at baiting out at least 1 or 2 on the way to his base. Also, he's Stephano. I wouldn't mind being linked to a VOD/time on his stream where he holds it off though!
I base trade every single time I scout this coming and win 4/5 games. I pray for this build to hit me because it seems so easy to defeat. Granted, I am only playing at a 1k pt Masters level, but base trade seems like the best, easiest option to defeat this. Why bother with trying to hold?
btw: just watched the replays of your ZvP thread where you and savior defend the sentry immo all in. P arrived at about 11:50, 11:30 and 11:00 at the Z bases in that replays. in all these replays banedrop would be easily be ready.
Yes, the P in those replays were pretty stupid. I'm currently working on finding a competent Toss to do the immortal/sentry all-in to me, in the meantime those replays are there to show how the response works. I believe the one on Shakuras, the Toss pushed out at a correct timing.
This part bothered me, especially because you are great guide writer, and seems you know a lot about the game, but you don't know that Queens aren't light nor armored. They are just Psionic, they don't have natural counter. Sure, Forcefields, Guardian Shield and Zealots that do great damage beat Queens, but Immortals and Stalkers really aren't doing much against them.
I knew that. I don't know why I thought that. Thanks.
On August 17 2012 05:06 IPA wrote: I base trade every single time I scout this coming and win 4/5 games. I pray for this build to hit me because it seems so easy to defeat. Granted, I am only playing at a 1k pt Masters level, but base trade seems like the best, easiest option to defeat this. Why bother with trying to hold?
Yeah, base trading works. But you shouldn't have to basetrade. Afaik, it's the only all-in where basetrading is the most reliable option haha. Personally, I'd rather defend with something cool like banerain and have a huge lead than to force it into a 2base vs 1base where he has map control...again, hopefully all methods are equally viable ^^
On August 17 2012 05:06 IPA wrote: I base trade every single time I scout this coming and win 4/5 games. I pray for this build to hit me because it seems so easy to defeat. Granted, I am only playing at a 1k pt Masters level, but base trade seems like the best, easiest option to defeat this. Why bother with trying to hold?
Yeah, base trading works. But you shouldn't have to basetrade. Afaik, it's the only all-in where basetrading is the most reliable option haha. Personally, I'd rather defend with something cool like banerain and have a huge lead than to force it into a 2base vs 1base where he has map control...again, hopefully all methods are equally viable ^^
how does the basetrade usually work out? what if they go for your natural then main, and you dont have time to spine up to protect your tech?
On August 17 2012 05:06 IPA wrote: I base trade every single time I scout this coming and win 4/5 games. I pray for this build to hit me because it seems so easy to defeat. Granted, I am only playing at a 1k pt Masters level, but base trade seems like the best, easiest option to defeat this. Why bother with trying to hold?
Yeah, base trading works. But you shouldn't have to basetrade. Afaik, it's the only all-in where basetrading is the most reliable option haha. Personally, I'd rather defend with something cool like banerain and have a huge lead than to force it into a 2base vs 1base where he has map control...again, hopefully all methods are equally viable ^^
how does the basetrade usually work out? what if they go for your natural then main, and you dont have time to spine up to protect your tech?
Generally, once you scout that they're all-in, you should turn all your drones at your third into spines at your natural. You should have enough time for the spines to get up if you start shortly before he moves out. Often Protoss will wait for a warp in, which takes ~15-20 seconds with a warp prism, longer with a pylon. That should give your spiens enough time.
Basetrading is better if you're even in roach:ling ratio; I often make the mistake of being super ling-heavy, then simcity or multiple cannons = gg for me. Generally if you can have ~15-20 roaches and any number of zerglings, you'll be guaranteed to at least snipe everything in his natural. I believe that's what is demonstrated in blade's replays in the roach/ling basetrade section.
There's a replay showing that drop tech and banelings most definitely can be done in time for the 9:30 push. Infact, it would be more beneficial if he actually attacked right away. In the end I lost due to terrible, terrible control and decision making on my zerglings ( and a supply block right before I was going to make a last huge round of ling-roach. But it shows that it can definitely be used ( if controlled properly, much like the roach-ling way of defending it ) against this all in.
To clarify, I took my gas before the 5 minute mark, then had two gas geysers up at 6:00, went speed before lair and still got the drop tech in time for the dreaded 10:15 mark that he can be shelling away at my hatch. If he retreats, fine, I get more time to get a larger army out. If he attacks right then, I should just drop down on the sentries and flood in with my army.
Your macro seems really off . You dont really seem to make anything. The toss also made his robo over a minute late at 6:45.
You start drop tech at 8:10. That means it would have finished by 10:20, which means your third is already dead and toss is just going back home with a huge lead.
At 8:00 you only have 60 supply too, with only 40 workers, which is 2 drones BEHIND a diamond protoss.
ps - overlord speed takes about half the time that droptech takes, never start them both at the same time...
Toss pushes out at 9:47 with only 2 immortals. When the engagement finally occurs, it's 11:30, which would be easy for any zerg, as you can be maxed on roach/ling by 11:30.
Despite your damage, Toss' army is still completely alive, except for the sentries.
Dude, all you are doing, is a 2 base ling/baneling drop build, but taking a third hatchery, against diamond protoss. I hate to say it, but in diamond, you can get away with anything. The macro of both the zerg and Toss in this game is really bad, and then makes the game look completely different. I assure you, that at higher levels of play, this just isn't viable, but in diamond, it looks pretty close.
You talk about getting a quick lair and earlier gas to pull this off, and as a result, you are about 20 drones behind at the 8:00 mark, and hell, 15 drones behind at the 6:00 mark. You are killing yourself ecnonomically. You don't think every zerg in the world doesnt want a quicker lair and have tech out against 2 base toss pushes? In this game, all you do is a 2 base ling/bane build with a third just taken, your economy is terrible in this game, which is why your army value is only equal to toss when he pushes out, when instead it should be like 2x his army value.
I don't think you know what you are talking about, and you are saying something because it's what works for you in Diamond. if you want to say "this works for me in diamond", that's fine, but this would not work at all at higher levels of play, and multiple masters+ have spoken and said your build doesn't work, at all. Why not just take 5 bases as Zerg in the early game? Because it just hurts your econ too much. You taking gas so early just kills your econ, it's pretty clear to see.
Basetrading is better if you're even in roach:ling ratio; I often make the mistake of being super ling-heavy, then simcity or multiple cannons = gg for me. Generally if you can have ~15-20 roaches and any number of zerglings, you'll be guaranteed to at least snipe everything in his natural. I believe that's what is demonstrated in blade's replays in the roach/ling basetrade section.
You want to be ling heavy in a base trade, roaches don't have the dps that lings have to win a base trade. If you go mutas, you shouldn't even make any roaches at all, and if you go roach/ling base trade, you only need 10-20 as if you were fighting straight up to bust the wall-in.
There's a replay showing that drop tech and banelings most definitely can be done in time for the 9:30 push. Infact, it would be more beneficial if he actually attacked right away. In the end I lost due to terrible, terrible control and decision making on my zerglings ( and a supply block right before I was going to make a last huge round of ling-roach. But it shows that it can definitely be used ( if controlled properly, much like the roach-ling way of defending it ) against this all in.
To clarify, I took my gas before the 5 minute mark, then had two gas geysers up at 6:00, went speed before lair and still got the drop tech in time for the dreaded 10:15 mark that he can be shelling away at my hatch. If he retreats, fine, I get more time to get a larger army out. If he attacks right then, I should just drop down on the sentries and flood in with my army.
Your macro seems really off . You dont really seem to make anything. The toss also made his robo over a minute late at 6:45.
You start drop tech at 8:10. That means it would have finished by 10:20, which means your third is already dead and toss is just going back home with a huge lead.
At 8:00 you only have 60 supply too, with only 40 workers, which is 2 drones BEHIND a diamond protoss.
ps - overlord speed takes about half the time that droptech takes, never start them both at the same time...
Toss pushes out at 9:47 with only 2 immortals. When the engagement finally occurs, it's 11:30, which would be easy for any zerg, as you can be maxed on roach/ling by 11:30.
Despite your damage, Toss' army is still completely alive, except for the sentries.
Dude, all you are doing, is a 2 base ling/baneling drop build, but taking a third hatchery, against diamond protoss. I hate to say it, but in diamond, you can get away with anything. The macro of both the zerg and Toss in this game is really bad, and then makes the game look completely different. I assure you, that at higher levels of play, this just isn't viable, but in diamond, it looks pretty close.
You talk about getting a quick lair and earlier gas to pull this off, and as a result, you are about 20 drones behind at the 8:00 mark, and hell, 15 drones behind at the 6:00 mark. You are killing yourself ecnonomically. You don't think every zerg in the world doesnt want a quicker lair and have tech out against 2 base toss pushes? In this game, all you do is a 2 base ling/bane build with a third just taken, your economy is terrible in this game, which is why your army value is only equal to toss when he pushes out, when instead it should be like 2x his army value.
I don't think you know what you are talking about, and you are saying something because it's what works for you in Diamond. if you want to say "this works for me in diamond", that's fine, but this would not work at all at higher levels of play, and multiple masters+ have spoken and said your build doesn't work, at all. Why not just take 5 bases as Zerg in the early game? Because it just hurts your econ too much. You taking gas so early just kills your econ, it's pretty clear to see.
please stop telling everybody toss kills the 3rd @ 10:00-10:15. its just outright wrong! i posted a replay of grubby where he does one of the fastest sentry immortal all ins and ret doesnt delay him and still arrives @ 10:30. post pro replays where they get 4 gas, do the sentry immortal all in and arrive @ 10:00 at the 3rd.
here´s another video (it copies the exact BO of sase vs stephano) which also arrives at around 10:30-10:40. also without any stalling from Z:
Basetrading is better if you're even in roach:ling ratio; I often make the mistake of being super ling-heavy, then simcity or multiple cannons = gg for me. Generally if you can have ~15-20 roaches and any number of zerglings, you'll be guaranteed to at least snipe everything in his natural. I believe that's what is demonstrated in blade's replays in the roach/ling basetrade section.
You want to be ling heavy in a base trade, roaches don't have the dps that lings have to win a base trade. If you go mutas, you shouldn't even make any roaches at all, and if you go roach/ling base trade, you only need 10-20 as if you were fighting straight up to bust the wall-in.
I guess, but you need critical mass (~20 IMO) of roaches to break down walls, zealots, and artosis pylons. Generally the way the timings work I'll have ~15-20 roaches with up to 40 speedlings. Perhaps +1 melee out of evo chamber is a good idea for vs sentry/immortal all-ins if you basetrade.
Stephano just beat this build 3 games in a row on his stream. It looks like he knows what to do to beat it. When the toss left his natural he would have about 20 speedlings and 4 roaches ready to snipe all the sentries or waste most of the forcefields. He would then put up spines at his third and crush the attack with roach/ling. Of course, this guy is Stephano, his style of defense may be too risky for it to work well for your average master Joe.
Ok that's really smart, I always wonder why intercepting it right when it leaves isn't done more often. Say you're facing someone who's actually good, and moves out with 3 immortals and 6 sentries @ 9:00. If you started making lings ~8:15-8:30, you could have 20-30 lings. I'm no math expert, but you should be able to do crippling damage to his push with the first few lings you make. Unforunately, 4 roaches can't 1 shot sentries (I think? 16x4=64 damage is less than 80 health), but 5 roaches should be able to. I honestly would like to see a pro replay where this is proven to not be viable.
I've been going double evo against any FFE that isn't a gateway timing. +1/+1 helps so much since lings are the ones doing the real DPS. But I still lose to it a lot. I think maybe I need to emulate what I saw on Stephano's stream today, where he sends units, some roaches and a bunch of lings, and immediately starts trying to snipe sentries/waste FFs the moment the Toss leaves his natural.
I don't think it's possible to beat if you don't force the Toss to waste any sentries or FFs as he approaches your third, I don't care how good of a surround you get, proper FFs will still kill you with reinforcing units from WP.
^ yea I've been thinking double evo would be a good idea. When I play against immortal/sentry using roach/ling straight up, I always seem to bank a lot of money, even with pretty good injects. But you can't get any tech out like hydras or infestors, I feel like 1/1 is really the only tech you can get that would be safe and timely.
Every time I try to do the whole bait-ff thing, it doesn't work too well. I find the loss in lings in doing so outweighs the forcefields you may force out. It's a lot easier to hold immortal/sentry if you are at 140 supply at 10:30+ instead of 120. No reason not to try to get a sentry left by itself or anything, or delay the push by as much as you can, though. But I've beaten it without having to waste a ton of FF. But that was against a ladder toss, so maybe it isn't viable at high levels to let toss arrive with full energy.
I usually say 10:30 they are at your base at the latest, and 9:30 they push out at the latest. What I meant in reference to Chaos' post was that his third would have no units to protect it, that's why it would be dead at 10:00, as in dead meat. But an immortal/sentry all-in can really hit and push out 30 seconds earlier than 10:30/9;)30, I just say 10:30/9:30 as reference numbers as the latest possible timing.
Things like your opening are a big part of it. You can a good 30 seconds down in your build if you go, say, nexus/forge/gateway/2ndpylon/cannon or nexus/gateway/forge.
like belial said its nexus first (which makes it faster) AND he takes the 3rd and 4th gas VERY late (6:00 and 6:30) which means his sentrys will have less energy. so this is basically the fastest possible sentry immortal all in. i posted 4 replays after FFE with faster gases where pros arrived @ 10:30 WITHOUT zerg attacking (on GM/high master level this will be 10-20 sec later = 10:40-10:50). so perhaps vs nexus first and late gases it MIGHT be better to just go roach ling since he has less FF energy. but even in your replay P wouldve arrived @ 10:15 at the 3rd so you would need to stall only for 15-25 sec to get banedrop ready which you can do easily.
even if you lose your 3rd you can just crush his army with banedrop afterwards and just win the game OR spine up and basetrade drop his main (like ling muta).
AND you can just take your gas @ 5:20 and get drop @ 10:20 if you still feel its too late (which it isnt with stalling).
There's a replay showing that drop tech and banelings most definitely can be done in time for the 9:30 push. Infact, it would be more beneficial if he actually attacked right away. In the end I lost due to terrible, terrible control and decision making on my zerglings ( and a supply block right before I was going to make a last huge round of ling-roach. But it shows that it can definitely be used ( if controlled properly, much like the roach-ling way of defending it ) against this all in.
To clarify, I took my gas before the 5 minute mark, then had two gas geysers up at 6:00, went speed before lair and still got the drop tech in time for the dreaded 10:15 mark that he can be shelling away at my hatch. If he retreats, fine, I get more time to get a larger army out. If he attacks right then, I should just drop down on the sentries and flood in with my army.
So I did the math for the minerals lost. I had 3 larvae idle at 5:29, and 6 more idle at 5:45 ( natural larvae spawning occurred at the same time as the injected larvae ) and those got spent at around 6 minutes. In total this macro mistake costed me a total of 120 minerals, WOE is me, I couldn't hold any all in without those extra two pairs of zerglings. While it would be nice to have those extra minerals ( and it is inexcusable to not be perfect in those drone building moments ) it isn't game ending.
While I feel flattered that you compared me to Jaedong, I think you are comparing me to a no gas Zerg that didn't have a pylon block. If you really want to compare my macro ability with pros, I would recommend Dimaga, as he is the one I most emulate. For your pleasure I did some analysis from his games at Dreamhack Summer.
To give you proof that Dimaga's macro is infact good enough, here's a replay of him going for a gasless build. He has 44 supply at 6:00. http://drop.sc/239728
Now onto the replays of the earlier gas builds. Here are two replays of him hitting 38 supply with a gas at 4:30, against Fraer - http://drop.sc/239729 and against Naniwa - http://drop.sc/239731 . We'll move back to those replays later to clear things up around the 8 minute mark.
Now here's a game of him hitting 44 supply with a 4:30 gas. For the record, he didn't have any pylon blocks and wasn't delayed on any of his hatcheries, and only made 2 lings to get that, thats how he managed to get out extra supply. http://drop.sc/239732
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote:
You start drop tech at 8:10. That means it would have finished by 10:20, which means your third is already dead and toss is just going back home with a huge lead.
My third is already dead? You mean the instant protoss gets to my third, it is just insta-gibbed? You mean that I have no way of stopping him from bee-lining to my third with zerglings to delay his time there? You mean that my gas-steal didn't delay him for atleast 10 seconds? Please show me a replay of a Protoss killing a third at 10:20 while moving out at 9:30 with an immortal push with you delaying his push with Zerglings, I will gladly back off my claim if you can provide proof that that third is dead by 10:20.
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote: At 8:00 you only have 60 supply too, with only 40 workers, which is 2 drones BEHIND a diamond protoss.
Now here's an interesting statistic that relies on those two replays that I told you to come back at. At 8 minutes, Dimaga has around 40 workers ( even sub 40 workers ) at that time frame. As you can see, he easily holds an 8 minute pressure with pure speedling ( something any double gas at 6 minute Zerg HAS to defend with Roaches because speed won't be out in time, forcing you to waste gas in units rather than tech like an upgrade ). As long as you start unit production soon enough ( which you should since a warpgate push is EASILY scouted ) you will be fine unless your dronecout is like 35 or whatever.
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote: ps - overlord speed takes about half the time that droptech takes, never start them both at the same time...
I'll take that into account next time. I figured I had the extra gas to dump it in the upgrade, might do a roach speed upgrade instead of overlord speed right away. Thanks for pointing that out.
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote: Toss pushes out at 9:47 with only 2 immortals. When the engagement finally occurs, it's 11:30, which would be easy for any zerg, as you can be maxed on roach/ling by 11:30.
Granted, he did delay his push enough to get +1/+1 out rather than drops, which would have helped much more ( and is exactly what kind of style I prefer if the Protoss goes for anything other than rushing for a fast immortal-sentry push ).
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote: Despite your damage, Toss' army is still completely alive, except for the sentries.
Dude, all you are doing, is a 2 base ling/baneling drop build, but taking a third hatchery, against diamond protoss. I hate to say it, but in diamond, you can get away with anything. The macro of both the zerg and Toss in this game is really bad, and then makes the game look completely different. I assure you, that at higher levels of play, this just isn't viable, but in diamond, it looks pretty close.
Despite me completely botching the control and thus not killing off the army in one go, I find myself in a similar 'you are boned' situation when I get more than 6 roaches forcefielded out anyway.
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote: You talk about getting a quick lair and earlier gas to pull this off, and as a result, you are about 20 drones behind at the 8:00 mark, and hell, 15 drones behind at the 6:00 mark. You are killing yourself ecnonomically. You don't think every zerg in the world doesnt want a quicker lair and have tech out against 2 base toss pushes? In this game, all you do is a 2 base ling/bane build with a third just taken, your economy is terrible in this game, which is why your army value is only equal to toss when he pushes out, when instead it should be like 2x his army value.
The ONLY and I repeat ONLY time I go for a fast lair and drop tech is when I get enough intell that this Immortal Sentry push is coming. I won't do it against a Blink stalker attack, I won't do it against a Voidray Phoenix style, I won't do it against a gateway attack, only specifically against an immortal sentry push. I am doing a '2 base all in' against a similar 2 base all in Protoss because I scout just that, I'm not doing this stuff blindly. The way this build works is killing off the sentries or delaying him with the threat of banelings being dropped before he can forcefield off my Zerglings, flooding in right away after the Sentries and possibly supporting Zealots have gone down. You aren't supposed to go in and slowly bait out forcefields like you would with a Roach-Ling army. It is supposed to suffocate the push in one huge wave, rather than chipping away at it giving yourself less room for error because having a large enough chunk of your army forcefielded off means its GG anyway.
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote: I don't think you know what you are talking about, and you are saying something because it's what works for you in Diamond. if you want to say "this works for me in diamond", that's fine, but this would not work at all at higher levels of play, and multiple masters+ have spoken and said your build doesn't work, at all. Why not just take 5 bases as Zerg in the early game? Because it just hurts your econ too much. You taking gas so early just kills your econ, it's pretty clear to see.
Please tell me more about how I don't know anything and that I'm just some shrub that does shit randomly. You're comparing apples with oranges here. I play a faster tech style that yes does have less drones by the 8 minute mark in favour of that faster tech, while you play a much more econ focussed style that gets gas later in favour of those extra drones. I don't go around spewing that your style is inviable because it gets ling speed out later than 8 minutes either, so why do you have to claim that this faster gas style only works in diamond while one of the top Zergs in EU, Dimaga ( as of now rank 36 in the world on the ladder ) has clearly shown that it does work in GM and yes tournament level games. These are two sides of the same coin, not 'this sucks and this rocks'.
I don't mind being called a diamond shrub by you, considering your standards are so high that even missing out on 4 drones would constitute as an enormous fail in macro for you. But please compare my style to similar gas styles rather than something completely different. /endrant
I didn't read all the messages ( i just ctrl + f'ed ) and i am suprised that nobody speaks about Hydras. I am a mid Master Zerg and i am creating a " original " transition against Sentry/Robo all in.
I open as usual with double expand, 6min double gas, etc ...
When I scout late 2 gaz in oponent's natural, i immediatly put an Hydralisk Den and creat many Overlord. After 60 drones on 4 gas / 3 bases i creat many many ling to put pressure in the protoss's natural ( around 9min ), force forcefield and delay a little bit his push. When the Hydralisk Den is finish i creat as many Hydra as I can and attack with Ling/Hydra ( don't forget +1 range for them ).
Keep reinforcing with Ling/Hydra and add some Roaches because the Protoss will often go to Collosus.
If the Protoss was not going for a Sentry/Immo All in ( B3, or anything else on 4 gas ) just all in with Ling/Hydra => Roaches/Hydra with a proxy Nydus.
While I feel flattered that you compared me to Jaedong, I think you are comparing me to a no gas Zerg that didn't have a pylon block. If you really want to compare my macro ability with pros, I would recommend Dimaga, as he is the one I most emulate. For your pleasure I did some analysis from his games at Dreamhack Summer.
It's not about being jaedong's level, any player should be at at least 40+ supply by that point in time.
My third is already dead? You mean the instant protoss gets to my third, it is just insta-gibbed?
No, I mean because you have no means to stop a competent Toss from pushing straight into your third and securing a position that you cannot attack into (especially on a map like cloud kingdom, and even daybreak). Fortunately for you, you don't play Toss' who can execute a competent immortal/sentry all-in that will hit by 10:30.
No, I really don't see your gas steal being that effective, especially considering how much it delays you. It might delay a Toss going for a warp gate pressure, but this particular all-in is'nt pushing out the second warp gate is done. I used to do the same thing for a long time but i've stopped as I think it's a lot better to just bring the drone right home. i drone scout for gateway expands but seeing as how gateway expands dont get a core right away i think i'll stop doing that...
Please show me a replay of a Protoss killing a third at 10:20 while moving out at 9:30 with an immortal push with you delaying his push with Zerglings, I will gladly back off my claim if you can provide proof that that third is dead by 10:20.
At 10:30 Tails has not killed the third, but he is at the third on daybreak, with forcefields blocking his flank, killing the third, in a position the casters even call out as one that the third is 'killed' as in dead meat. I could find more replays/vods with some time of toss at zerg's third before 10:30. Most of them, like the one of Toss fighting at Zerg's third at 10:00, are engaging Zerg army because zerg engages, but it's obvious that if Toss was uncontested, he'd walk right into the third.
Actually the game of squirtle vs bbongbbong just linked above is a perfect example of a toss going up and attacking the third way before 10:30.
Despite me completely botching the control and thus not killing off the army in one go, I find myself in a similar 'you are boned' situation when I get more than 6 roaches forcefielded out anyway.
I don't see what miscontrol you are referring to. Your banelings hit perfectly, on top of all his sentries, and toss did what any toss would do, split his army up.
Please tell me more about how I don't know anything and that I'm just some shrub that does shit randomly. You're comparing apples with oranges here. I play a faster tech style that yes does have less drones by the 8 minute mark in favour of that faster tech, while you play a much more econ focussed style that gets gas later in favour of those extra drones. I don't go around spewing that your style is inviable because it gets ling speed out later than 8 minutes either, so why do you have to claim that this faster gas style only works in diamond while one of the top Zergs in EU, Dimaga ( as of now rank 36 in the world on the ladder ) has clearly shown that it does work in GM and yes tournament level games. These are two sides of the same coin, not 'this sucks and this rocks'.
dont mind me im just a grump. i think you post a lot of good stuff.
What you say about you getting a lair much quicker, makes a little more sense. I still don't understand though, given that Toss will throw his robo down at 5:30+ and you are taking your gas at 4:30+, I dont know how you know he's doing an immortal/sentry all-in before his build looks any different from any other toss opener...
I'm saying what I say because I have never seen any pro Zerg at gomtv use drop tech, to hold immortal/sentry (granted, every pro zerg that faces immortal/sentry loses except nestea holding it once and hyun holding it once, both with unconventional methods). On top of that, droptech can't be out in time against immortal/sentry all-ins. It seems like a lot of what you say, like about immortal sentry hitting at 11:00+, is based on *your* experiences (in diamond) rather than what is viable at higher levels of play.
I'll look over the dimaga replays later, I don't see how it's relevant though. Dimaga will be behind economically with his fast gas style if Toss plays a macro game. Speedlings alone won't hold +1 zealot pressure, also. And going for quicker gas like that just puts zerg behind in drones, if Dimaga, say, faced an immortal/sentry all-in, he'd be in a really tough spot for being a bit behind economically.
You are basically claiming that the answer to immortal/sentry is getting some sort of magical counter, but it's not - beating it is about macro, you have to have enough stuff. You are basically claiming it's not about macro. At least that's what I'm taking from it, and if you are facing such late immortal/sentry pushes, then I would see why.
I'm sorry, but you still haven't convinced me that baneling drops are viable. You have still yet to provide a replay of a Toss who is doing an immortal/sentry push that hits by 10:30 with at least 3 immortals, 6 sentries, and baneling droptech used to hold it.
Only way possible to get it in time is some sort of quick lair style, as you say, but I'm still skeptical that even with quick lair, you could use baneling drops to hold it. You have some replays of dimaga going quick gas, but I don't know how that is relevant, he isn't facing an immortal/sentry all-in. Maybe if I saw a high level pro replay, or a vod, of a zerg doing this, but sorry that I am a bit skeptical when a diamond zerg (not even diamond, even if another 1200 points masters zerg was saying it) is saying there's a way to beat an immortal/sentry all-in using something that no other pro or high level player has ever talked about, ever done, can't provide any replays to support it, is only based on their own ladder experiences, and has clearly not faced a proper immortal/sentry all-in. Cecil even said that this was really bad advice. I don't know what else would convince you that this isn't viable and that diamond replays aren't really going to be enough to convince people otherwise.
As little as my diamond tuppence is worth in this discussion, I've been having a lot of success against the plethora of 2 base all ins with hydra ling. Its still very rough but this is what I've been tending to do
I've been opening with 3 bases, 3 gas on 36 and speed > lair > +1 ranged attacks as the upgrades. 4 queens up, 3 for bases, 1 for creep spread (to help hydra mobility between bases), 4th gas around lair completion.Basically droning super hard until around scouting ~8mins.
If they push out, hydra ling tends to deal the damage to hold it off, while you steadily overwhelm them. If he pokes and sees hydras then moves back, you drop a spire and a nydus network, pushing to his front door to deal some damage while taking a 4th before colossus come up
If they take a 3rd, you start slamming pressure on the front door in a similar way with the nydus and punish it.
Its really rough, but pretty much based off of the day9 daily where ret's style is being discussed. I get the feeling a lot of ptoss will be like "wat?" upon seeing hydras again...
While I feel flattered that you compared me to Jaedong, I think you are comparing me to a no gas Zerg that didn't have a pylon block. If you really want to compare my macro ability with pros, I would recommend Dimaga, as he is the one I most emulate. For your pleasure I did some analysis from his games at Dreamhack Summer.
It's not about being jaedong's level, any player should be at at least 40+ supply by that point in time.
Provided they don't get pylon blocked and provided they go for a standard 6 minute double gas style. I cannot see the match of Jaedong considering that I don't have a GOM pass, so if you can tell me exactly what kind of build he is going for then we can see how our builds compare. That 40+ supply mark should be hit with a gasless style for sure, but unless you aren't meddled with it is hard to achieve with a fast gas style, that's why I ask you to compare players based on what builds they are going rather than comparing two seperate and different builds and noting that 'yep, he has drones out faster at this time' while that is a given in the first place.
My third is already dead? You mean the instant protoss gets to my third, it is just insta-gibbed?
No, I mean because you have no means to stop a competent Toss from pushing straight into your third and securing a position that you cannot attack into (especially on a map like cloud kingdom, and even daybreak). Fortunately for you, you don't play Toss' who can execute a competent immortal/sentry all-in that will hit by 10:30.
No, I really don't see your gas steal being that effective, especially considering how much it delays you. It might delay a Toss going for a warp gate pressure, but this particular all-in is'nt pushing out the second warp gate is done. I used to do the same thing for a long time but i've stopped as I think it's a lot better to just bring the drone right home. i drone scout for gateway expands but seeing as how gateway expands dont get a core right away i think i'll stop doing that...
The whole point of drops is that that impossible to attack into position never should go up by taking out the sentries. I haven't seen replays of you getting hit at that time consistantly anyway so I guess that you won't have to play competant tosses either. Not an attack on you, just a note that to your high standard, nobody gets competant until they hit their timings 100%, which rules out only about 99% of the population on the ladder.
Please show me a replay of a Protoss killing a third at 10:20 while moving out at 9:30 with an immortal push with you delaying his push with Zerglings, I will gladly back off my claim if you can provide proof that that third is dead by 10:20.
At 10:30 Tails has not killed the third, but he is at the third on daybreak, with forcefields blocking his flank, killing the third, in a position the casters even call out as one that the third is 'killed' as in dead meat. I could find more replays/vods with some time of toss at zerg's third before 10:30. Most of them, like the one of Toss fighting at Zerg's third at 10:00, are engaging Zerg army because zerg engages, but it's obvious that if Toss was uncontested, he'd walk right into the third.
Actually the game of squirtle vs bbongbbong just linked above is a perfect example of a toss going up and attacking the third way before 10:30.
Again, no GOM ticket. Could you be kind enough to list the units he has out in his push by this time? Because I'm pretty confident that 8 sentries and a round of Zealots easily get beaten by 24 Banelings, allowing the Zerglings to flood in straight after. I will grant you that it is hard to come back with your third lost, but without a third up for the Protoss and having the mobility of drops, it's not like you don't have the tools neccesary to harass the Protoss.
Despite me completely botching the control and thus not killing off the army in one go, I find myself in a similar 'you are boned' situation when I get more than 6 roaches forcefielded out anyway.
I don't see what miscontrol you are referring to. Your banelings hit perfectly, on top of all his sentries, and toss did what any toss would do, split his army up.
My Zerglings were attacking from behind while they should have been attacking from the front, attackign the retreating army. I should have waited until I got more Zerglings or roaches out and just posture the baneling drops rather than dropping them immediately. And I should have engaged the Immortals with the zerglings rather than the stalker fodder so a roach reinforcement could take out the rest of the army. Plenty of things went wrong in that engagement.
Please tell me more about how I don't know anything and that I'm just some shrub that does shit randomly. You're comparing apples with oranges here. I play a faster tech style that yes does have less drones by the 8 minute mark in favour of that faster tech, while you play a much more econ focussed style that gets gas later in favour of those extra drones. I don't go around spewing that your style is inviable because it gets ling speed out later than 8 minutes either, so why do you have to claim that this faster gas style only works in diamond while one of the top Zergs in EU, Dimaga ( as of now rank 36 in the world on the ladder ) has clearly shown that it does work in GM and yes tournament level games. These are two sides of the same coin, not 'this sucks and this rocks'.
dont mind me im just a grump. i think you post a lot of good stuff.
What you say about you getting a lair much quicker, makes a little more sense. I still don't understand though, given that Toss will throw his robo down at 5:30+ and you are taking your gas at 4:30+, I dont know how you know he's doing an immortal/sentry all-in before his build looks any different from any other toss opener...
You're taking a hit on your economy to have speed out in time for an 8 minute push so you won't have to invest gas into units. With that extra gas you can invest into +1/+1 for your Zerglings ( which make them absolutely rediculous, +2/+2 makes them so extremely cost effective that you can basically rely on getting three extra hatcheries, 1 macro hatch at the third and 2 extra bases, and still be safe enough to kill off a protoss push with Roach ling ). It's not like getting a gas earlier is only good when going for lair first, it has other advantages against other builds so you don't have to rely on roaches in the midgame as much unless you want to go for major pressure.
On August 17 2012 19:40 Belial88 wrote: I'm saying what I say because I have never seen any pro Zerg at gomtv use drop tech, to hold immortal/sentry (granted, every pro zerg that faces immortal/sentry loses except nestea holding it once and hyun holding it once, both with unconventional methods). On top of that, droptech can't be out in time against immortal/sentry all-ins. It seems like a lot of what you say, like about immortal sentry hitting at 11:00+, is based on *your* experiences (in diamond) rather than what is viable at higher levels of play.
I am not saying immo sentry hits at 11 minutes... I'm saying that drop tech can be out in time for an immortal sentry push that arives at your base around 10:20 to 10:30, albeit the timings are very tight. I've never said it was a guaranteed win or that it was the go to build to defend this push, much like the other options aren't. All I said that it might be a viable answer to the immortal sentry push that I prefer over just straight up losing because I got supplyblocked once, even against a diamond toss with bad timings. I can certainly work on my timings and macro to improve my defenses, but I'll keep on going for this style because it gives so much map controll against a Protoss that goes for a Robo build because of the drop tech.
On August 17 2012 19:40 Belial88 wrote: I'll look over the dimaga replays later, I don't see how it's relevant though. Dimaga will be behind economically with his fast gas style if Toss plays a macro game. Speedlings alone won't hold +1 zealot pressure, also. And going for quicker gas like that just puts zerg behind in drones, if Dimaga, say, faced an immortal/sentry all-in, he'd be in a really tough spot for being a bit behind economically.
You are basically claiming that the answer to immortal/sentry is getting some sort of magical counter, but it's not - beating it is about macro, you have to have enough stuff. You are basically claiming it's not about macro. At least that's what I'm taking from it, and if you are facing such late immortal/sentry pushes, then I would see why.
I'm not claiming that it is the magical answer, I'm claiming that it is one of the options.You don't have to do this to not die, but if you go for this style you aren't out by default either. You will need impeccable macro in all of the cases, beit mutaling counter attack or roach ling holds. All I'm saying is that you don't NEED 60 drones desperately to hold considering your main army will be Zerglings and banelings, which require a vastly lower drone saturation to support constant production than Roaches do.
On August 17 2012 19:40 Belial88 wrote: I'm sorry, but you still haven't convinced me that baneling drops are viable. You have still yet to provide a replay of a Toss who is doing an immortal/sentry push that hits by 10:30 with at least 3 immortals, 6 sentries, and baneling droptech used to hold it.
Only way possible to get it in time is some sort of quick lair style, as you say, but I'm still skeptical that even with quick lair, you could use baneling drops to hold it. You have some replays of dimaga going quick gas, but I don't know how that is relevant, he isn't facing an immortal/sentry all-in. Maybe if I saw a high level pro replay, or a vod, of a zerg doing this, but sorry that I am a bit skeptical when a diamond zerg (not even diamond, even if another 1200 points masters zerg was saying it) is saying there's a way to beat an immortal/sentry all-in using something that no other pro or high level player has ever talked about, ever done, can't provide any replays to support it, is only based on their own ladder experiences, and has clearly not faced a proper immortal/sentry all-in. Cecil even said that this was really bad advice. I don't know what else would convince you that this isn't viable and that diamond replays aren't really going to be enough to convince people otherwise.
It is okay if I don't convince you that it is viable, or infact any of the strategy forum, because I'm not GM and clearly any advice I give would be worse than they could muster out. I recognize that my evidence has been light to say the least. The only thing I came here to actually defend was your insisted pounding on my lower drone count and supply counts at 6 and 8 minutes, while I have clearly stated that those will be lower regardless of having impeccable macro because of my earlier gas style.
I haven't proven that the baneling drop style works, which isn't why I posted that replay in the first place. I posted it to refute the claim that drop CAN'T be out in time for the push, while it clearly can be. You can keep on putting disbelief in that specific style because my evidence has been light, all I'm saying that drop can infact be out in time ( moreso if you go lair before speed, which I didnt in the replay ) and that the tech can be out to defend against this all in. Whether it is the most optimal build ever in terms of dronecount was never my intention of proving, more so it's just an option that I personally go for at 2000 MMR.
On August 17 2012 20:13 Gregseh wrote: As little as my diamond tuppence is worth in this discussion, I've been having a lot of success against the plethora of 2 base all ins with hydra ling. Its still very rough but this is what I've been tending to do
I've been opening with 3 bases, 3 gas on 36 and speed > lair > +1 ranged attacks as the upgrades. 4 queens up, 3 for bases, 1 for creep spread (to help hydra mobility between bases), 4th gas around lair completion.Basically droning super hard until around scouting ~8mins.
If they push out, hydra ling tends to deal the damage to hold it off, while you steadily overwhelm them. If he pokes and sees hydras then moves back, you drop a spire and a nydus network, pushing to his front door to deal some damage while taking a 4th before colossus come up
If they take a 3rd, you start slamming pressure on the front door in a similar way with the nydus and punish it.
Its really rough, but pretty much based off of the day9 daily where ret's style is being discussed. I get the feeling a lot of ptoss will be like "wat?" upon seeing hydras again...
I can imagine that working at our level, but it's really not viable. Hydras just suck too much. They're barely cost-effective against stalkers, I believe a zealot wins 1v1, and 1 colo will ruin your day. In theory it's not that bad, but all your hydras become useless once a colossus or storm enters the field. Also they're slow, vulnerable to force fields, really low health. Also, any build that skips roaches is vulnerable to gateway timings. You can't get hydras in time, and splings are bad vs +1 zealots.
Chaos, I'm actually surprised you're only 2000MMR. Your guides are great and have helped me win a ton, I'm surprised you're not mid+ masters. Do you just not play enough to really refine mechanics? Just curious, seems the strategy's there!
Basetrading is better if you're even in roach:ling ratio; I often make the mistake of being super ling-heavy, then simcity or multiple cannons = gg for me. Generally if you can have ~15-20 roaches and any number of zerglings, you'll be guaranteed to at least snipe everything in his natural. I believe that's what is demonstrated in blade's replays in the roach/ling basetrade section.
You want to be ling heavy in a base trade, roaches don't have the dps that lings have to win a base trade. If you go mutas, you shouldn't even make any roaches at all, and if you go roach/ling base trade, you only need 10-20 as if you were fighting straight up to bust the wall-in.
You want to have quiet a few roaches and lings. If you go on mainly zerglings your base trade won't work out very well. You can't base trade with mutalisks vs the immortal all in anymore unless you are starting lair at 6-6:30. It hits to fast for mutas now of days.
I saw the replays that op uploaded were a bit old (month in a half) so here are a few in here:
On August 18 2012 04:37 Monsyphon wrote: Really enjoying that video Blade You mentioned getting a 4th queen to creep spread, mind telling me when you usually make it?
I normally do queen at main, (assuming you don't get pylon blocked at both natural and third) queen at natural once it finishes, then when thirds about halfway done you start another one at main or natural hatchery, then make the 4'th at the third base when that finishes. The one coming out of your main/natural will be used for creep spread.
If he double pylons at natural and third then you end up doing double queen at main hatch, queen at natural and then the third.
You can also hold it off a la EG.Suppy. You tech to infesters while make 7-8 spines per choke while massing lings to counter. It's kinda hard to be Goldilocks vs this all-in, they can always take a third, so you start your 4th and start droning again, then they cancel the 3rd and rape your booties.
Basetrading is better if you're even in roach:ling ratio; I often make the mistake of being super ling-heavy, then simcity or multiple cannons = gg for me. Generally if you can have ~15-20 roaches and any number of zerglings, you'll be guaranteed to at least snipe everything in his natural. I believe that's what is demonstrated in blade's replays in the roach/ling basetrade section.
You want to be ling heavy in a base trade, roaches don't have the dps that lings have to win a base trade. If you go mutas, you shouldn't even make any roaches at all, and if you go roach/ling base trade, you only need 10-20 as if you were fighting straight up to bust the wall-in.
You want to have quiet a few roaches and lings. If you go on mainly zerglings your base trade won't work out very well. You can't base trade with mutalisks vs the immortal all in anymore unless you are starting lair at 6-6:30. It hits to fast for mutas now of days.
I saw the replays that op uploaded were a bit old (month in a half) so here are a few in here:
Thanks a ton, blade! I'll add these to the OP once I get home. So, do you think that it's possible to beat the all-in with a roach/ling engagement? Just curious if you've had success with head on fights, or if basetrading is the only option at your level ^^
It is possible but it's incredibly difficult. It relies a bit on protoss messing up and you engaging perfectly each time. It's really hard and I just stopped doing it because 1 small mistake and you lose. It's very unforgiving vs that immortal all in which is why I only do the base trade, it's a lot easier to execute and I never lose with it :D.
Haha sounds awesome :D I sure this is clear in the replay, but do you mass spines in your natural once you realize what he's doing? I imagine you do, as a base trade with 0 defense can't go well
Yup as soon as I know what he's doing I prepare. I also get an overseer so that I can snipe his observer as well so that he can't change his mind and take a third.
It's pretty funny to see tosses reactions to my way of handling it. They always walk towards the natural and then get like a shock when they see 15 or so spines killing their army then they pull back and realize their fucked lol.
Provided they don't get pylon blocked and provided they go for a standard 6 minute double gas style. I cannot see the match of Jaedong considering that I don't have a GOM pass, so if you can tell me exactly what kind of build he is going for then we can see how our builds compare. That 40+ supply mark should be hit with a gasless style for sure, but unless you aren't meddled with it is hard to achieve with a fast gas style, that's why I ask you to compare players based on what builds they are going rather than comparing two seperate and different builds and noting that 'yep, he has drones out faster at this time' while that is a given in the first place.
No, you should be around 40+ even if pylon blocked. Jaedong is just doing a standard 3 hatch build. I think it's completely accurate to compare fast gas vs no gas standard - there's a reason people don't do this quick double gas, it's because it hurts your econ too much.
The whole point of drops is that that impossible to attack into position never should go up by taking out the sentries. I haven't seen replays of you getting hit at that time consistantly anyway so I guess that you won't have to play competant tosses either. Not an attack on you, just a note that to your high standard, nobody gets competant until they hit their timings 100%, which rules out only about 99% of the population on the ladder.
No, in a lot of my replays the toss are morons too, I don't even face 'correct' immortal/sentry even at 1.2k masters. I believe the roach/ling example I have in my guide, the Toss pushes and hits before 9:30/10:30 respectively, but the muta replay isn't too great an example.
But you make it out that these are some ridiculously hard standards to meet, and it's not. It would be like saying "pfft, you can't expect everyone to hit with a 4 gate by 7:00". You just execute a build order, and do it, it's not very hard. But at diamond, a lot of people can't even do that, hence why you can get away with a lot more in diamond. You aren't facing immortal/sentry all-ins that hit on time, and if Toss is 1 minute late in his immortal/sentry push, you can be maxed on roach/ling, which makes the push very easy to deal with.
Again, no GOM ticket. Could you be kind enough to list the units he has out in his push by this time? Because I'm pretty confident that 8 sentries and a round of Zealots easily get beaten by 24 Banelings, allowing the Zerglings to flood in straight after. I will grant you that it is hard to come back with your third lost, but without a third up for the Protoss and having the mobility of drops, it's not like you don't have the tools neccesary to harass the Protoss.
3 immortals, 7 sentries, 3 zealots, 9 stalkers. 24 slow banelings and 60 lings are not going to stop that.
If Toss is on 2 base with a robo, gateways, and a standing army, vs a 2 base zerg, he's going to be way ahead. I'm not saying you can try to pull off a win with harass or something, but you are behind, and most would say you've lost the game granted toss doesn't fuck up (which, as shown in the gsl, has happened many times when immortal/sentry pushes kill the third and then toss still loses, like in that very game i linked with leenock vs tails).
My Zerglings were attacking from behind while they should have been attacking from the front, attackign the retreating army. I should have waited until I got more Zerglings or roaches out and just posture the baneling drops rather than dropping them immediately. And I should have engaged the Immortals with the zerglings rather than the stalker fodder so a roach reinforcement could take out the rest of the army. Plenty of things went wrong in that engagement.
Toss had forcefield. How are you going to afford both roaches and ling, bane drops, with even less drones than standard 3 hatch play? Standard play can barely afford enough plain roach/ling to fight this, yet you claim you can beat this with a substantially smaller economy (by about 10-20 drones smaller), and having spent a spare 400/350 on tech.
Sorry, I don't believe that you can hold immortal/sentry with banedrops, when everyone else has a hard enough timing beating it with 20 more drones without having teched as hard.
You're taking a hit on your economy to have speed out in time for an 8 minute push so you won't have to invest gas into units. With that extra gas you can invest into +1/+1 for your Zerglings ( which make them absolutely rediculous, +2/+2 makes them so extremely cost effective that you can basically rely on getting three extra hatcheries, 1 macro hatch at the third and 2 extra bases, and still be safe enough to kill off a protoss push with Roach ling ). It's not like getting a gas earlier is only good when going for lair first, it has other advantages against other builds so you don't have to rely on roaches in the midgame as much unless you want to go for major pressure.
What 8 minute push are you talking about? Upgrades also take almost 3 minutes to research, nevermind you won't have the gas for them. You will never have upgrades in time against a warp gate pressure. If Toss does a +1 warp gate pressure, you NEED roaches to deal with it, speedlings alone won't be enough.
You can't base trade with mutalisks vs the immortal all in anymore unless you are starting lair at 6-6:30. It hits to fast for mutas now of days.
I think you can use mutalisks against immortal/sentry, with standard ~7:30 lair timing. Nestea did a quick lair and had mutas come out at 10:30, when lure was at his base, but I think even 11:00 mutas will still work as the mass spines will prevent him from busting up into your main. All you need to do is get those ~15 mutas hatched, which shouldn't be a problem.
Maybe they won't work, but I've dealt with a couple 10:30 immortal/sentry pushes with muta style where the mutas were coming out after he was already almost done killing my third, and I was still able to win the base trade. If any toss wants to test it out, i'd love to see if you can do the muta style with standard lair timings.
^ As long as he is forced to go to the third instead of the nat/main first, via 10+ spines at the nat, I think you can win the base trade still. Later mutas just means you'll have more mutas.
I'll see about finding a rep on a toss who hits with 3 immortals before 10:30 though. Going standard lair timing and mutas has worked for me, and I know I've ran into pre-10:30 3 immortal/6+ sentry pushes a couple times (though not as often as bad immortal/sentry pushes).
Let me help set standard for what Zerg should assume for this push. I present no solution, but just raw facts and analysis so that we can discuss based on the same timings/assumptions.
Squirtle's build order execution looks very close to optimal. As Khaldor said in the video, it is "textbook immortal push" that Zerg players should keep in mind. I doubt that an average NA/EU master/GM Joe can pull off this level of play at the moment, so probably add 10-30sec to every timing for your ladder play.
Timings (only important timings) 6:00&6:25 3rd 4th gas taken 9:00 move out 9:45 arrive near or inbetween Zerg bases if undisturbed. (depend on map distance) 10:10 engagement unit count =3immortals, 12 sentries, 1 stalker, 5 zealots, 1 warpprism, 1 observer(not arrived yet) with +1 attack upgrade. 10:30 +1 armor upgrade finish if no chronoboost is used. -10sec for each chronoboost. In the video, it is not clear if squirtle used chrono or not, but 10:30 is upgrade complete timing at the very latest.
Depending on map and where you set up the defense, Zerg has at least 35-60sec to prepare after lings confirm the push in front of protoss base. Map distance reference:[G]Map Distance & Travel Time. Check 2.25 movement speed section for immortal/sentry.(Ohana has different image, but distance is the same)
10:10 Forcefield count analysis energy regeneration rate is 0.5625energy/second. Time it takes to regenerate 50 energy for forcefield = 50/0.5625=88.8888=almost 90sec=1min30sec. Therefore, whichever sentry made after 8:40 has only 1 force field, and those before 8:40 have 2 forcefields. Among before 8:40 group, sentry made before 7:10 can even have 3rd forcefield as well. From video analysis, it looks 1sentry =3FF, 3 sentry =2FF, 8 sentry =1FF. 1*3+3*2+8*1=17 forcefields are available for protoss at 10:10 mark. Since there are 12 sentries and 90sec is 50energy regeneration interval, 90/12 =7.5sec is average FF refill period. That is to say, protoss gains 1 additional forcefield every 7.5 seconds on average. Therefore, 10:10 17FFcount -> 10:40 21 FFcount ->11:10 25 FFcount ->11:40 29 FFcount if protoss keeps all 12 sentries alive.
Zerg Scouting I think we need to assume the worst when skill is not involved. Standard scouting assumption: 1. Zerg can scout 3rd&4th gas timings (Cloud Kingdom 4th gas is the only one hard to scout on ladder) 2. Zerg cannot scout any tech buildings including robo with overlord sacrifice. (not always reliable, so assume the worst) 3. Zerg cannot see the sentries with overlord sacrifice. (1 stalker is already out at 6:15 to kill the overlord) 4. Zerg can know that protoss doesn't have 7:30ish fast 3rd. (1 ling can easily scout it) 5. Zerg can see the move out around 9:00-9:30 in front of protoss base. (lings with careful micro is skill-based, not luck-based) 6. Zerg cannot find/kill all proxy pylons, espcially non-close ones. (It is OK to assume you can kill close proxy before 9:30, but hidden mid map ones are not always found/killable)
With all these in mind, Zerg should go for a build that A. can defend immortal/sentry all-in (obviously) B. can defend other 2 base all-ins that involve 6:00-6:25ish 3rd&4th gas.
If you do a build that can satisfy A, but not B, then it relies on your luck or opponent's lack of skill. Your build has to satisfy both A&B to play consistently. Important thing to remember is that you never know 100% if it is immortal/sentry push until 9:00 mark. It could be delayed 2 stargate(usually 5:30&6:00 gas) as far as you know from the scouting information.
I hope these information set common ground for discussion.
On August 18 2012 04:07 Mavvie wrote: Chaos, I'm actually surprised you're only 2000MMR. Your guides are great and have helped me win a ton, I'm surprised you're not mid+ masters. Do you just not play enough to really refine mechanics? Just curious, seems the strategy's there!
I tend to prefer experimentation over adhering to the current gold standard of the metagame. I don't do a 6 queen opener in ZvT, I don't do standard gas timings in ZvP and I prefer a Mutalisk style in ZvZ due to having more control over his infestors. There's a lot less replays to copy in that sense, so I have to build up my own understanding of the game and lose to a lot of silly stuff in the process. I also prefer more multitask heavy styles to strain my micro-macro mechanics more, and messing up with those styles tends to give you really bad looking losses ( mismicroing mutalisks, having an overseer in a pack of overlords hotkeyed so you can't do drops before removing that overseer and so on ) over the standard 'sit on your ass and turtle to deatharmy X'.
Again, no GOM ticket. Could you be kind enough to list the units he has out in his push by this time? Because I'm pretty confident that 8 sentries and a round of Zealots easily get beaten by 24 Banelings, allowing the Zerglings to flood in straight after. I will grant you that it is hard to come back with your third lost, but without a third up for the Protoss and having the mobility of drops, it's not like you don't have the tools neccesary to harass the Protoss.
3 immortals, 7 sentries, 3 zealots, 9 stalkers. 24 slow banelings and 60 lings are not going to stop that.
If Toss is on 2 base with a robo, gateways, and a standing army, vs a 2 base zerg, he's going to be way ahead. I'm not saying you can try to pull off a win with harass or something, but you are behind, and most would say you've lost the game granted toss doesn't fuck up (which, as shown in the gsl, has happened many times when immortal/sentry pushes kill the third and then toss still loses, like in that very game i linked with leenock vs tails).
I am only going to answer this point, because it absolutely baffles me that you lack the imagination neccesary that in a straight up fight with drops, you imagine the first to win. Either you bait out a ton of forcefields ( you're moving in with the overlords while attacking with the lings at the same time, forcing protoss to pick either forcefielding, retreating or spreading rigth away ) or you just straight up swamp him. Unless he has some kind of magical marineking-prime esque split, manages to get forcefields up while sniping away at overlords, his sentries will be long dead, the zealots gone with it, leaving only 9 stalkers and 3 immortals to fight against 60 Zerglings...
On August 18 2012 09:27 Belial88 wrote: ^ As long as he is forced to go to the third instead of the nat/main first, via 10+ spines at the nat, I think you can win the base trade still. Later mutas just means you'll have more mutas.
I'll see about finding a rep on a toss who hits with 3 immortals before 10:30 though. Going standard lair timing and mutas has worked for me, and I know I've ran into pre-10:30 3 immortal/6+ sentry pushes a couple times (though not as often as bad immortal/sentry pushes).
so basically you still say basetrading with mutas + spines is viable and basetrading with ling banedrop + spines isnt?
if you sac your 3rd and put mass spines at your natural while having your lings and ovis positioned in front of his base you will drop him as he kills your 3rd. its not like he kills your 3rd and walks back and defends the drop since you drop him AS he kills the 3rd.
i think best way to go if you go banedrop is basetrade if you see you cant get drop in time/dont have enough shit or just outright kill him/defend 3rd if your BO + macro went well.
Edited the OP, reformatting a bit, adding in Orek's content, and hopefully we can discuss the new ways to safely defeat this all-in. I've also added a rep of mine, to demonstrate that even a noob can do it (Y)
10:10 Forcefield count analysis Since there are 12 sentries and 90sec is 50energy regeneration interval, 90/12 =7.5sec is average FF refill period. That is to say, protoss gains 1 additional forcefield every 7.5 seconds on average. .
On August 20 2012 12:47 Mavvie wrote: Edited the OP, reformatting a bit, adding in Orek's content, and hopefully we can discuss the new ways to safely defeat this all-in. I've also added a rep of mine, to demonstrate that even a noob can do it (Y)
10:10 Forcefield count analysis Since there are 12 sentries and 90sec is 50energy regeneration interval, 90/12 =7.5sec is average FF refill period. That is to say, protoss gains 1 additional forcefield every 7.5 seconds on average. .
I did not know that sentries share energy.
I did not know that making "average" italic TWICE to emphasize my point was not enough to avoid this discussion.
10:10 Forcefield count analysis Since there are 12 sentries and 90sec is 50energy regeneration interval, 90/12 =7.5sec is average FF refill period. That is to say, protoss gains 1 additional forcefield every 7.5 seconds on average. .
I did not know that sentries share energy.
I did not know that making "average" italic TWICE to emphasize my point was not enough to avoid this discussion.
You cannot add their energy and average it. It does not work like that.
Let me break it down for you. You divided 90 seconds into 12 sentries. This only works assuming a shared energy pool. Every 90 seconds Protoss gains an additional force field, for each sentry in the group. You tried to oversimplify.
Guys, not every sentry has the exact same amount of energy. Sometimes it'll be 1 second between one sentry reaching another multiple of 50, sometimes it'll be up to 89. On average, the time between a Protoss sentry ball of 12 sentries gaining enough energy for one more forcefield is 7.5 seconds. The calculations have nothing to do with a "shared energy pool" or anything. He's right.
On August 20 2012 13:33 FullAccess wrote: Let me break it down for you. You divided 90 seconds into 12 sentries. This only works assuming a shared energy pool. Every 90 seconds Protoss gains an additional force field, for each sentry in the group. You tried to oversimplify.
You're pretty right, but on average, those 90 seconds are 7.5 seconds apart. Besides, this is a fairly trivial part, I found it more an interesting statistic than something crucial to base timings off of.
I tend to prefer experimentation over adhering to the current gold standard of the metagame. I don't do a 6 queen opener in ZvT, I don't do standard gas timings in ZvP and I prefer a Mutalisk style in ZvZ due to having more control over his infestors. There's a lot less replays to copy in that sense, so I have to build up my own understanding of the game and lose to a lot of silly stuff in the process. I also prefer more multitask heavy styles to strain my micro-macro mechanics more, and messing up with those styles tends to give you really bad looking losses ( mismicroing mutalisks, having an overseer in a pack of overlords hotkeyed so you can't do drops before removing that overseer and so on ) over the standard 'sit on your ass and turtle to deatharmy X'.
No one is saying there isn't alternative ways to play the game. We've seen a ton of variance in how pros handle imortal/sentry - hyun's roach/ling base trade, nestea's muta base trade, and roach/ling straight up. But when you do a style that no pro ever does, people are going to question it, and it's not like pros don't think to themselves "let's try something different" or "I'm going to experiment!" or "I don't like playing standard".
But what you are suggesting, is something that flat-out doesn't work at a high level. All you are really suggesting is a 2 base ling/bane opener, but grabbing a third hatch and doing nothing with it. I think you'd find much more success if you simply went 2 hatch lair instead of took a third, because all you are doing is having less economy than a 2 base lair has, while having later tech than a 3 hatch does. It's the worst of both worlds.
Also, if you are only testing this stuff out at diamond level, it's hard to really validate what you are doing. If you want to say "this is what works for me in diamond", that's perfectly fine, you can even write a guide about it, but you can't say "well despite never having faced a proper immortal/sentry all-in, I'm going to recommend you go ling/bane drops because that works for me in diamond".
(in reference to my comment about 2 base ling/bane vs 2 base toss)
I am only going to answer this point, because it absolutely baffles me that you lack the imagination neccesary that in a straight up fight with drops, you imagine the first to win. Either you bait out a ton of forcefields ( you're moving in with the overlords while attacking with the lings at the same time, forcing protoss to pick either forcefielding, retreating or spreading rigth away ) or you just straight up swamp him. Unless he has some kind of magical marineking-prime esque split, manages to get forcefields up while sniping away at overlords, his sentries will be long dead, the zealots gone with it, leaving only 9 stalkers and 3 immortals to fight against 60 Zerglings...
It's not a lack of imagination, I think it's kind of insulting that you say that. It's that I know what a proper immortal/sentry all-in can hit like, and certain 'answers' just aren't correct when you get to a certain level. Really, i went ling/bane drops for a better part of a year in ZvP, you can even see my Ling Infestor Guide (how I grew to love zvp) where I talk about it. if anything, i'm certainly someone who's open to non-standard approaches to the game, and I love me some baneling drops. I wish ling/bane drop was the answer, but it's not.
In a 2 base vs 2 base situation, toss isn't going to move out, he's going to stay in his base. Even with your drops, you aren't going to bust the ramp at Toss' base, you are just going to kill his sentries - no MKP micro necessary as he pre-splits his units for the aggression. Just like any 2 base opener though, you are semi- all-in and have to do damage, and as long as Toss defends, he'll be ahead. It's why people don't open 2 base ling/bane in ZvP - 2 base muta is really the better 2 base build if anything, but 2 base builds in general are kind of all-innish and not as strong for a macro game (but as a strat once in a while, sure, its strong, just like any all-in or pressure build can be).
so basically you still say basetrading with mutas + spines is viable and basetrading with ling banedrop + spines isnt?
if you sac your 3rd and put mass spines at your natural while having your lings and ovis positioned in front of his base you will drop him as he kills your 3rd. its not like he kills your 3rd and walks back and defends the drop since you drop him AS he kills the 3rd.
i think best way to go if you go banedrop is basetrade if you see you cant get drop in time/dont have enough shit or just outright kill him/defend 3rd if your BO + macro went well.
Maybe. I don't know, if someone tries it and posts the results that would be interesting. I don't think it would work well, but maybe. Mutas are really good in base trades, drop tech doesn't really seem to be as good for it. Then again, roach/ling isn't exactly base trade material either.
I tend to prefer experimentation over adhering to the current gold standard of the metagame. I don't do a 6 queen opener in ZvT, I don't do standard gas timings in ZvP and I prefer a Mutalisk style in ZvZ due to having more control over his infestors. There's a lot less replays to copy in that sense, so I have to build up my own understanding of the game and lose to a lot of silly stuff in the process. I also prefer more multitask heavy styles to strain my micro-macro mechanics more, and messing up with those styles tends to give you really bad looking losses ( mismicroing mutalisks, having an overseer in a pack of overlords hotkeyed so you can't do drops before removing that overseer and so on ) over the standard 'sit on your ass and turtle to deatharmy X'.
Also, if you are only testing this stuff out at diamond level, it's hard to really validate what you are doing. If you want to say "this is what works for me in diamond", that's perfectly fine, you can even write a guide about it, but you can't say "well despite never having faced a proper immortal/sentry all-in, I'm going to recommend you go ling/bane drops because that works for me in diamond".
From this very thread:
On August 15 2012 17:39 Chaosvuistje wrote: I'd go with the other styles that were brought up in this guide and try and work with those while I gather replays and evidence in favour of this method.
On August 17 2012 20:39 Chaosvuistje wrote: I haven't proven that the baneling drop style works, which isn't why I posted that replay in the first place. I posted it to refute the claim that drop CAN'T be out in time for the push, while it clearly can be. You can keep on putting disbelief in that specific style because my evidence has been light, all I'm saying that drop can infact be out in time ( moreso if you go lair before speed, which I didnt in the replay ) and that the tech can be out to defend against this all in. Whether it is the most optimal build ever in terms of dronecount was never my intention of proving, more so it's just an option that I personally go for at 2000 MMR.
I don't mind being called out on my builds. But I never recommended this over any other style ever since that discussion in the Zerg Help Me thread. All I did was tell people how I did it if they asked for it. Please stop making it sound like I am forcing my build down everyones throat while I'm clearly recommending other methods over mine.
(in reference to my comment about 2 base ling/bane vs 2 base toss)
I am only going to answer this point, because it absolutely baffles me that you lack the imagination neccesary that in a straight up fight with drops, you imagine the first to win. Either you bait out a ton of forcefields ( you're moving in with the overlords while attacking with the lings at the same time, forcing protoss to pick either forcefielding, retreating or spreading rigth away ) or you just straight up swamp him. Unless he has some kind of magical marineking-prime esque split, manages to get forcefields up while sniping away at overlords, his sentries will be long dead, the zealots gone with it, leaving only 9 stalkers and 3 immortals to fight against 60 Zerglings...
It's not a lack of imagination, I think it's kind of insulting that you say that. It's that I know what a proper immortal/sentry all-in can hit like, and certain 'answers' just aren't correct when you get to a certain level. Really, i went ling/bane drops for a better part of a year in ZvP, you can even see my Ling Infestor Guide (how I grew to love zvp) where I talk about it. if anything, i'm certainly someone who's open to non-standard approaches to the game, and I love me some baneling drops. I wish ling/bane drop was the answer, but it's not.
In a 2 base vs 2 base situation, toss isn't going to move out, he's going to stay in his base. Even with your drops, you aren't going to bust the ramp at Toss' base, you are just going to kill his sentries - no MKP micro necessary as he pre-splits his units for the aggression. Just like any 2 base opener though, you are semi- all-in and have to do damage, and as long as Toss defends, he'll be ahead. It's why people don't open 2 base ling/bane in ZvP - 2 base muta is really the better 2 base build if anything, but 2 base builds in general are kind of all-innish and not as strong for a macro game (but as a strat once in a while, sure, its strong, just like any all-in or pressure build can be).
Which is one of the reasons you get a third out, to make him move out in the open. You can't defeat a wall off with this style, that's not how you're supposed to use it. In the Immortal-Sentry games its meant to stop the push immediately. In later times it is used to whipe out the gateway army so your superior reinforcements can clean up and take out a base of protoss. If you let Protoss get up a fourth base with this style, you're very much behind, I agree.
All I asked was in a straight up fight, no strings attached, just composition versus composition, which army would win. Which you responded by saying 'well protoss is just never going to move out because you are on two bases'. If he doesn't move out he just gives me time to make an even bigger army or instantly saturate my third and get a fourth to try and lure him out. The point of the third base is not to give an immediate return of investments against this style, it's to have something to fall back onto without being forced to attack the protoss no matter what. Hell, if he doesn't move out, you don't even have to morph the banelings.
For this thread I suggest we lay down the discussion on the baneling drop style. There is no reason to continue discussing something that has gone back and forth so long without any side budging from their main stance. I'll stop talking about it as to not waste anyones time on more discussion that isn't leading this thread anywhere.
On August 20 2012 22:31 gronnelg wrote: How do you guys feel about adding hydras to the mix to stop this?
They are quite good at defending this all in but if toss decides to take third instead (which he should do after scouting hydra tech) and switch to colossus then you've just wasted a lot of gas into useless units and your chances of defending a 3 base colossus timing are minimal.
On August 20 2012 22:31 gronnelg wrote: How do you guys feel about adding hydras to the mix to stop this?
I don't believe roach hydra is better than pure roach. Hydras just aren't as cost efficient and the range difference isn't that great. Ling Hydra might work if you can get the range upgrade because it is much harder to FF out both lings AND hydras. However I am not sure on the followup as hydra is pretty weak against collosus and high templar.
I seem to be able to get drops and a decent amount of ling bane off 3 hatches by the 10 minute mark. The gas timings are 4:30, 5:30 and 6:30x2 and the upgrades lair>speed>drops>overlord speed>bane nest. I also get enough drones to saturate 4 gases and 3 mineral lines. I just figured out the gas timings required to get ling/bane drops out in time mathematically and at first they seemed too early to be viable, but i think i manage the decent amount of drones and units because i need less overlords compared to a roach/ling build.
drop.sc doesn't seem to be working at the moment, so I'll upload a replay later, but i encourage you to try it out if you're at all interested :D
I'm a baneling-drop type of guy, so here's my two cents. I get it around 11 minutes i suppose. Well that might differ a little bit i suppose depending on having to deal early aggression and get speed first and so on. That said, the early aggression will also delay the sentry immortal push. So it's not that useful to look at the times but the basic things i've summed up are:
The all in comes at varying times depending on what is the army the opponent is comfortable moving out with. If i don't get early aggression, i actually go +1 melee before Lair and very fast 2 aditional gases. I also get a roach warren and asap speed on that. Then i get 5 gases if it isn't an extremely fast version. So, generally all the timings differ even depending on map, but you can divide them into 3 groups: Comes before drops (time remaining might vary), comes just as the drops are finished, a pretty late one, a bigger one at that.
The late one - usually have +2 melee at that time, bane drops 2shot sentries, most of the time the army get's destroyed. A good balance of ling-roach is good for better attacking surface management. If you botch the engagement, a continious blink stalker warp in might be troublesome.
The early one - depending on armies, you chose what to do - how you stall him a bit, force some sentries (not for the energy, since, when bane drops come, it won't matter that much, just for the time), if you don't have roach speed yet done, this might be hard, i sacrifice a base (depending on which he is going to. on some maps - 3rd, that is perfect, just build a 4th and transfer most of the drones before he arrives, on some maps - natural - it gets.. harder) you have to scare him into moving very slowly. if you throw any number of banelings at him, he will pretty much always forcefield in order to protect sentries, this gives quite a bit of time. You also have some production in the back from the third, so he actually kind of sandwiches himself and you have banelings so he can't ignore that. You normally should also have time to place a spine or two at ur natural, just for more delay. You should get ur banedrops, you don't really need many banelings, just 6 or so, roach ling with a pretty high number of roaches, as, when stalling, your roaches wont die, the lings/banes will, as the forcefields will try to keep them off. That's about it. If they go for the 3rd, put 2 spines or ur natural, force them to advance slowly, quite easy.
The middle one - it's often either a failed early one or a push after some weird harassment. The army itself oftentimes isn't much bigger than the early version and you can usually take the fight. Though at this version you should have a lot of lings, less roaches.
That's how all the all ins have been dealt in my case. Atm i'm very rusty on mechanics so i don't really save replays, if i find one, i'll drop it here.
On August 20 2012 22:31 gronnelg wrote: How do you guys feel about adding hydras to the mix to stop this?
Ling/hydra is amazing against sentry/immortal all-in, IMO the best composition to stop it, Losira used to use it quite a bit on stream.
That being said, if it turns out they weren't all-inning you, well, Hydras are slow so it's hard to attack with them, and once collossus come out it's wasted. So you have to be pretty sure it's going to be an all-in.
On August 20 2012 22:31 gronnelg wrote: How do you guys feel about adding hydras to the mix to stop this?
Ling/hydra is amazing against sentry/immortal all-in, IMO the best composition to stop it, Losira used to use it quite a bit on stream.
That being said, if it turns out they weren't all-inning you, well, Hydras are slow so it's hard to attack with them, and once collossus come out it's wasted. So you have to be pretty sure it's going to be an all-in.
I believe the problem with hydras, apart from what you said, is that it doesn't satisfy point B. A colossus all-in looks the same if your scouting is denied significantly by a competent Protoss player. If you go ling/hydra, you're just going to die to the colossus all in. Simple as that. So it may beat sentry/immortal, but not all the all-ins that look similar based on common scouting.
Also, hydras suck. I actually never make them, not even in ZvZ (probably should, but I really don't like them)
Maybe you can go roach/ling/hydra to stop the allin, then get drop if he takes a 3rd?
There was a guide on a roach/hydra drop i saw a month or two ago but can't find it with search now. As i recall it was a powerful strategy at the time but possibly the game has evolved a bit.
That being said, if it turns out they weren't all-inning you, well, Hydras are slow so it's hard to attack with them, and once collossus come out it's wasted. So you have to be pretty sure it's going to be an all-in.
If you scout the gates it's fairly straight forward. By the time he scouts the hydras he's going to be pretty late in terms of the colossus. That leaves two options, he expands (and you get all up in his grill) or he goes colossus and you prepare.
If you don't scout the third going down, you'll notice that the colossus is coming in fairly soon (and if im right, gateway numbers/production will have to die down a bit for it) and have enough time to just drop a spire and get all in his face. My experience (being worth nothing, of course) is that I've had great success dropping a nydus network and getting really aggro in the gap - it'll force more production from the gateways, maybe lead to you getting a forge down while he's upgrading, and most importantly - allow you to start a 4th.
No doubt many holes here, but it's a pretty solid build I'm finding just now. People just don't seem to like nydusing up to their front door as opposed to actually in their base. Its just a quick method of reinforcing!
I'm a baneling-drop type of guy, so here's my two cents. I get it around 11 minutes i suppose. Well that might differ a little bit i suppose depending on having to deal early aggression and get speed first and so on. That said, the early aggression will also delay the sentry immortal push. So it's not that useful to look at the times but the basic things i've summed up are:
There's is no 'early all-in' or 'late all-in'. It's either Toss pushes out with 3 immortals, 6+ sentries, by 9:30 and hits by 10:30, or he's not doing an immortal/sentry all-in (or not doing it correctly).
There is no way you are going to have +2 done against an immortal/sentry all-in. You can possible have +1 finished.
On August 17 2012 19:24 Jeece712 wrote: I didn't read all the messages ( i just ctrl + f'ed ) and i am suprised that nobody speaks about Hydras. I am a mid Master Zerg and i am creating a " original " transition against Sentry/Robo all in.
I open as usual with double expand, 6min double gas, etc ...
When I scout late 2 gaz in oponent's natural, i immediatly put an Hydralisk Den and creat many Overlord. After 60 drones on 4 gas / 3 bases i creat many many ling to put pressure in the protoss's natural ( around 9min ), force forcefield and delay a little bit his push. When the Hydralisk Den is finish i creat as many Hydra as I can and attack with Ling/Hydra ( don't forget +1 range for them ).
Keep reinforcing with Ling/Hydra and add some Roaches because the Protoss will often go to Collosus.
If the Protoss was not going for a Sentry/Immo All in ( B3, or anything else on 4 gas ) just all in with Ling/Hydra => Roaches/Hydra with a proxy Nydus.
In the replay you provided, Toss only has 2 immortals by 9:30, when he should have 3 immortals already done and be ppushing out. Toss didn't even push out until 10:30. You had 5 hydras by 10:30.
a late edit, but what i meant by 'you had 5 hydras by 10:30' means maybe you are on to something?
Say you take a quick lair at 7:00 once you scout gas/robo. That takes 80s and will be done at 8:20. If you plant your infestation pit right away, that will take 50s and be done at 9:10. If you want your infestors to have fungal, you'll need to research pathogen glands, wait 30s, then build your infestors at 9:40, which take another 50s, popping out at 10:30, the exact time that the push is supposed to hit (at the latest), and all of your infestors will be scurrying about. If you skip pathogen glands because you just want a few IT's, you can have them at 10:00.
Infestors spawn with 50 energy, or 75 with PG, and IT's cost 25 energy. This means you get 2 IT's from each infestor you build, which can't really be more than 4-6 I think. So you just have to ask if all of that gas and all of those minerals is worth a few fungals or 8-12 IT's. Personally, I really really really don't think so. To put it in perspective, the resource cost of an infestation pit, 4 infestors, and pathogen glands adds up to 650 minerals and 850 gas, which comes out to about 9 roaches, with an extra 625 gas for roach speed, +1 +1 etc. You could even mine less gas and make more lings with it.
I don't think it's worth it ^_^ I prefer the base trade or heavy flanks.
On August 22 2012 03:15 Deatheus89 wrote: Is it possible to go mass ling and infestor. then surround with ling and infested terran to stop the push?
Pretty sure it isn't; you can't get a significant number of infestors in time. However, fungals destroy sentries, so if you could get them in time + land the fungals it'd be an easy win.
On August 22 2012 03:47 DojoJoe wrote: Let's try the math:
Say you take a quick lair at 7:00 once you scout gas/robo. That takes 80s and will be done at 8:20. If you plant your infestation pit right away, that will take 50s and be done at 9:10. If you want your infestors to have fungal, you'll need to research pathogen glands, wait 30s, then build your infestors at 9:40, which take another 50s, popping out at 10:30, the exact time that the push is supposed to hit (at the latest), and all of your infestors will be scurrying about. If you skip pathogen glands because you just want a few IT's, you can have them at 10:00.
Infestors spawn with 50 energy, or 75 with PG, and IT's cost 25 energy. This means you get 2 IT's from each infestor you build, which can't really be more than 4-6 I think. So you just have to ask if all of that gas and all of those minerals is worth a few fungals or 8-12 IT's. Personally, I really really really don't think so. To put it in perspective, the resource cost of an infestation pit, 4 infestors, and pathogen glands adds up to 650 minerals and 850 gas, which comes out to about 9 roaches, with an extra 625 gas for roach speed, +1 +1 etc. You could even mine less gas and make more lings with it.
I don't think it's worth it ^_^ I prefer the base trade or heavy flanks.
Ok thanks for the answer! I think there was once I almost stopped it with mass ling infestor. But failed because I used fungal growth instead of infested terran.
I made a huge batch of lings early to delay his army walking from his base to mine. So, I think his pushed arrived late enough that I had about 6 infestors? With pathogen glands completed. But yea currently having lots of problems with this build.
I'm a high masters zerg and the most effective way for me to hold this push is to counter attack. Either force a large warp in at his base pull your units back and crush his army and if he doesnt warp in you take out his natural while you spine up your natural then it becomes 2 base vs 1 base and you win. I don't think I've lost playing like this to this push in over a month now.
I posted this in another thread, but I feel like posting it here as well as I didn't get the exact response I was looking for.
Here are 4 replays of me playing the same person doing the same build (his version of the immortal/sentry all-in) and me failing to defend it with roach/ling. I have read and believe I understand the way to deal with the all-in using the method I am attempting to use, but it's still not even close. I am hoping someone can shed some light for me on what I did wrong. I understand my macro is not gosu x2 level, but I really don't think that is the problem, as my opponent's macro isn't pinpoint accurate either. We are both in platinum league, if that matters any. Any advice would really be appreciated.
Now, here is one replay of me attempting to do the muta/base race style with great success. I believe my opponent misclicked his army while attacking my natural, but I don't think it would have made much of a difference. (Also, I forgot ling speed. ;D)
I would really prefer to be able to hold this all-in without base racing, as I feel it is very gimmicky (especially with mutas, as if I can't reliably scout the robo, it's not a reliable way to handle the all-in or other all-ins that may be coming my way). On that note, any help that anyone can give me to holding the immortal/sentry all-in in a "straight-up" manner with roach/ling is greatly appreciated. I know my macro needs to be good, I know I need to waste forcefields, I know I need to flank. I feel like I'm doing these things reasonably well for my skill level, and am still getting steamrolled when I respond in this manner. Please halp.
just outpowering with roach/ling is the only good way to go at it I think. First of all it's solid vs any other stuff as well which some funky ideas can't say. Secondly it's probably most effective because it doesn't waste much money on certain techs etc. Stuff like baneling bombs is just not reliably because the tech takes too long and protoss micro can pretty much invalidate the tactic. Plus protoss can easily switch to stalker heavy instead of a sentry heavy composition if they see anything funky.
The VOD in the topic boongboong nearly held it and he would have if he: - got ranged attack instead of carapace - used a couple queens/spines in the defense, queens are quite fine combat units against this attack and if protoss doesn't take a fast third i recommend making 2 extra queens for defense, they are good against air and good against later timing attacks. They are especially great as they let you focus the warp prism which is good if they are using it to save immortals or even better if it's their only way to reinforce. - make sure the creepspread is good and prevent a pylon being put close to your base.
Basetrade methods can also work but they are a bit gimmicky I think and if protoss responds well he should win i think
I really, really dislike trying to fight it head on with roach ling. Ret a couple of days ago was streaming and got hit with immortal sentry on Ohana. He was 77/92 supply at 8 minutes, maxed out at like 11:20 ish on roach ling, had a good concave and forced the protoss to delay his commitment to attacking for a good minute or so (and was maxed as toss pushed into his third)....and got crushed. After the game his comment was, "I guess I should've pulled back once and then re-engaged? *sigh*"
I'm not convinced it would've mattered and I've seen Ret get crushed by immortal sentry over and over throughout the past few months by trying to fight it straight up with roach ling.
I know Idra has commented on immortal sentry and said that ling+bane+drops or ling/infestor (fungal the sentries) are the counters to it as long as you scout it in time.
I, personally, (low masters) have had success with ling/infestor myself, but you need to scout the build asap and immediately grab all your gases and tech as fast as possible. I often skip roach warren if I scout double gas at natural and have 1-1 on my lings as well (and a macro hatch). Even if the protoss takes a third instead of attacking I think I'm still in a pretty good position as it's easy to drone up at that point and you can start your hive quickly.
A few weeks ago I experimented with going straight into a banenest and then banespeed the second my lair finished when i scouted/guessed this allin was coming. (its usually pretty obvious through the early sentry production and robo almost always at natural next to nexus),
At first I was toying with speedbanes in all matchups because I was dealing with massive delay but actually had massive success especially against this build. 3-way flank and they need to leave 0 gaps or risk losing all their sentries. Usually there's a gap and you just win. Alternately they spam most of their FF and on the 2nd wave there is a gap and you clear it out. It's still a narrow fight relying on the same control as roachling defense but I found it to be more reliable and more punishing on opponent's mistakes. Creep-spread is a massive bonus of course.
Sorry don't have any replays on the laptop I'm posting from. This was at high master KR and high gm NA though. Try it out if you like
Good guide, as a Gold league player, even if there are some debatable parts of the guide it was still useful.
Thing about these all-in pushes is that when Protoss players memorise the builds, they're super easy to execute if you aren't a complete spanner. You just have to be a massively better player overall to be able to stop them cold.
It's the same as the situation with the 12 min roachmax, Zergs memorised that build and it was difficult for Protoss to stop it. Protoss players just had to scout hard and be prepared for it, change up their builds.
Key to beating these all-ins in my opinion is to constantly be reading up on the metagame and scout hard. I feel like if I miss a little macro or micro the game isn't over however if I miss a key scout, I'm stuffed.
Thanks! Actually, it's a very hard build to execute perfectly. I'm considering throwing together a small [G] or [D] thread on how to execute it optimally. My first time in a custom game I was able to move out with 3 immortals and 9 sentries at 9:00 flat off a nexus first build, with 7 gates total finishing up, but I was lucky to barely dodge supply blocks and barely make gas timings.
You're generally right, but imo the Stephano-style roach max is easily defended....unless Zerg researches drops then IMO it's undefendable. It relies on forcefields to keep the roaches at bay, but big drops on the army make it pretty unstoppable. Ladder PvZ is free wins if they don't win with a 2base all in. I find on ladder roach drops also win vs Mech if I go mutas to force thors/no tanks.
I digress. Knowing the metagame is important, scouting is important, knowing how to react is even more important. I feel the other way around, but that's because I usually scout obsessively. There's no reason to not know the exact second he takes each geyser, plants down each building, including his expansions and tech choices. 200 minerals and you're guaranteed to scout everything. However, if you do miss a scout, you will lose. You just shouldn't
AFAIK, no gas at natural @ 6:30 means either +1 zealot pressure or all-in, 1 gas is either blink, DTs, stargate, or some kind of robo expand, and 4 gas is a tech-heavy 2-base all-in, on ladder this usually means sentry/immortal. In my experience, 6:45 is the better timing if they opened forge-first (not nexus first), because of worse mechanics and gameplay at my level.
Not wrong
I've noticed that there's actually no real guide on doing immortal/sentry, just some shitty +1/+1 variation that hits way late.
Edit: I've been playing around in practice games, and honestly DIMAGA's ling/bane drop style of ZvP must be the future of the matchup. There simply is /no/ counter to ling/bane drops. Air play is OK, but you might kill 2 overlords? before i blow up all your probes, sentries, and stalker/zealots. Even floating 1k minerals (macro hatch or two is necessary I think) I can crush my practice partners it's just insane. It sucks that the timings don't quite work to defend this all-in.
I would like to get some help about the scouting phase... A friend of mine use pretty much same timing gaz and forge activation for a zealot +1 push into blink stalker +2. So if i don't scout robo i can't be sure which one it is. I love to play muta ling against protoss and would like to deal with sentry immo push using mutas lings, but a build order without a fast roach warren get destroyed by the zealot +1 push (7min10) so is there any way when you scout to see the difference between those two builds ? thx a lot if someone can help me with this.
^ Post a rep then. We can't really help you without a rep.
If your friend is doing his own gas timing, then it just means the build should be easier for you to handle as it's later/weaker.
Fast +1 zealot pushes can only come if he doesnt take any gas by 6:30. if he doesn't take any gas by 6:30 with immortals, you should easily be maxed by the time he arrives at your base, at which point you simply spread your units and easily crush him from 2 directions.
See no gas at natural by 6:30 = 6:30 and 1 millisecond later, you make a roach warren.
See gas at natural by 6:30 = don't make a roach warren until like 7:30+, at which point you should easily see he has lots of sentries, or the robo, which should be in the natural. He can't really hide his immortals, and if he is going immortal/sentry, the sentries won't kill your overlords before they find that robo, which is almost always in the nat.
Blink will have stalkers instead of sentries. And your friend's quick +1 zealot push, if it takes gas, means that it isn't really a quick +1 zealot push, and you should easily have pumped enough lings to deal with it, as well as a later, standard roach warren.
Also, you can go quick mutas with a roach warren. Making the roach warren isn't a big deal. You'd rather not make it, to cut some corners, but it's not a big deal at all. You are still going lair before speed either way, so your spire timing wouldn't be affected.
the replays on "Method 3: Fast 3 base mutalisks " part are not against immo sentry push... do u have some replay of muta ling against immo sentry push ? do u trade base or fight the push ? and if u choose to trade how fast do u get ur mutas ?
^ check out my zvp guide linked in my profile. you base trade. you get your mutas as fast as you can. you should know it's at least a robo opening before lair finishes, but the earlier you know, the more corners you can cut (no macro hatch so you can make more spines, quicker lair, quicker gases, no roach warren or evo, etc) but with a standard 3 hatch opening you should get mutas out by 11:00. a good 30 seconds to a minute later then when the push is already killing your third but you should have a ton of spines up in your nat so he can't finish you off, and then your 15-20 mutas all at once will bust his wall, and your lings can stream in and win the base trade while he can't push up.
On August 23 2012 01:48 PiGStarcraft wrote: A few weeks ago I experimented with going straight into a banenest and then banespeed the second my lair finished when i scouted/guessed this allin was coming. (its usually pretty obvious through the early sentry production and robo almost always at natural next to nexus),
At first I was toying with speedbanes in all matchups because I was dealing with massive delay but actually had massive success especially against this build. 3-way flank and they need to leave 0 gaps or risk losing all their sentries. Usually there's a gap and you just win. Alternately they spam most of their FF and on the 2nd wave there is a gap and you clear it out. It's still a narrow fight relying on the same control as roachling defense but I found it to be more reliable and more punishing on opponent's mistakes. Creep-spread is a massive bonus of course.
Sorry don't have any replays on the laptop I'm posting from. This was at high master KR and high gm NA though. Try it out if you like
I experimented with baneling drops as well, but ofc it only works against the variants that hit slightly later.
I have been having success going 3 hatch roach/ling and getting a good number of spines at my natural and third.
I haven't quite refined it, but I basically go for 60 drones by 8 mins. 3 gas at 6:30, roach warren/evo at 7:00, ling speed and +1 melee. The best I have done with it, I managed to have 26 lings + 12 roaches + 11-12 spine crawlers witth +1 melee nearly complete by 10:30 (replay 1) but I think these numbers could be vastly improved upon. I also usually poke with my army to buy some time to pump more units. If you can manage to trap them on your ramp, they're screwed. (replay 2).
I am only a high diamond player so I assume better zergs could produce even more than I managed to. I believe this certainly needs to be refined more and discussed. I figure that you're going to need the spines later in the game anyway.
This is the better of my two attempts at this strategy against a masters toss: http://drop.sc/247682
This was my first attempt to use spines to hold the push. My macro is pretty sloppy. I only made 5 spines at my natural and 6 at my third. By 10:30 I have spines complete at my natural with spines finishing at the 3rd. I also have 10 roaches/10 lings. He attempts to push my natural and I trap him on my ramp and his army is decimated: http://drop.sc/247681
I hope this helps someone. I am going to be improving upon it as much as possible.
I find ling bane is quite effective. If he backs off long enough then you can get fast infestors out which will completely crush his attack. I think a good thing to note is that if he is taking the double gas then it's okay to cut drones at like 50 and start to mass lings. He will either be going immortal sentry all in (where you can hold), immortal sentry expand, where you can deny the 3rd, or voidrays where you can deny the 3rd he tries to take behind it as well and then you rush out your infestors.
In this game I grabbed a very early lair because I was planning on possibly getting drops, but I decided to abandon that idea so you don't need to grab the lair as early.
On September 06 2012 08:20 ambikalx wrote: I have been having success going 3 hatch roach/ling and getting a good number of spines at my natural and third.
I haven't quite refined it, but I basically go for 60 drones by 8 mins. 3 gas at 6:30, roach warren/evo at 7:00, ling speed and +1 melee. The best I have done with it, I managed to have 26 lings + 12 roaches + 11-12 spine crawlers witth +1 melee nearly complete by 10:30 (replay 1) but I think these numbers could be vastly improved upon. I also usually poke with my army to buy some time to pump more units. If you can manage to trap them on your ramp, they're screwed. (replay 2).
I am only a high diamond player so I assume better zergs could produce even more than I managed to. I believe this certainly needs to be refined more and discussed. I figure that you're going to need the spines later in the game anyway.
This is the better of my two attempts at this strategy against a masters toss: http://drop.sc/247682
This was my first attempt to use spines to hold the push. My macro is pretty sloppy. I only made 5 spines at my natural and 6 at my third. By 10:30 I have spines complete at my natural with spines finishing at the 3rd. I also have 10 roaches/10 lings. He attempts to push my natural and I trap him on my ramp and his army is decimated: http://drop.sc/247681
I hope this helps someone. I am going to be improving upon it as much as possible.
I don't have time to watch replays (I'll be sure to watch and add to OP if it's relevant!), but while I was thinking about this it seems to be really good on stupid maps. For example, Cloud Kingdom, bottom left spawn. If you build ~6 spines to the right of the third hatchery it would be a huge help. Setting up a flank would also be great, so you can pounce on him as soon as he engages the spines. It basically prevents him from abusing the map too much. He can either forcefield himself in (yay delaying his push by 15 seconds!), or he can forcefield off your flank and engage some roach/ling backed by 6 spines, or he can forcefield the spines and eat up your big roach/ling flank. Seems effective; give your army some cost-efficient ranged attack :D Only on Cloud Kingdom would I do it -- personally I'm comfortable holding it on any other map (that I don't have vetoed lol)
Llama, that video was awesome. I'll be sure to add it to the OP once I have some free time, also Belial it's an example of ling/bane being used in a top level game to stop immortal/sentry all-in! Not sure how much of it was luck though; you did force him to use like 20 forcefields on that small number of lings. Still, looks promising. Banelings! :D
^ Suppy essentially seems to do that. Some people were saying "Oh suppy beats it with ling/infestor!" but it wasn't really true, he holds it using mass spines, not ling/infestor. He's able to buy time with the spines to get ling/infestor. I'm not really sure how viable it is because he comments in that particular game that he woudl ahve lost if toss just pushed (because infestors can't be out in time, so it's essentially just naked spines...), but i think the idea of using spines itself isn't a bad one. Maybe combined with something more conventional like roach/ling... maybe even mutas, and i think it's definitely viable.
I surprised there's still no concensus to really beat immortal/sentry. Or why don't toss just do it every game. They do it on ohana every single time though.
Mrllama and mavvie - i'm really not sure about that ling/bane video. I'm not going to say that it's clearly not a good example or evidence, it looks like it has potential. It's not ling/bane drop though, I don't think drops would work at all. That Toss only had 2 immortals instead of 3, and unfortunately warped in a shitton of zealots, which was kind of weird (i get he saw lots of lings, but generally stalkers are the warp in of choice after pushing out). I think if that Toss kept his back against the wall and forcefielded better, he would have had that game. His forcefields were absolutely terrible though. Even at ~9:00 when you engaged with slowlings, he didn't forcefield until his sentry was half dead, and why was his army split apart from eachother.
Could banespeed come out in time against immortal/sentry though? That'd be interesting. It's also probably very map dependent too. I don't see that approach working at all on a map like cloud kingdom.
On September 06 2012 12:47 Belial88 wrote: Mrllama and mavvie - i'm really not sure about that ling/bane video. I'm not going to say that it's clearly not a good example or evidence, it looks like it has potential. It's not ling/bane drop though, I don't think drops would work at all. That Toss only had 2 immortals instead of 3, and unfortunately warped in a shitton of zealots, which was kind of weird (i get he saw lots of lings, but generally stalkers are the warp in of choice after pushing out). I think if that Toss kept his back against the wall and forcefielded better, he would have had that game. His forcefields were absolutely terrible though. Even at ~9:00 when you engaged with slowlings, he didn't forcefield until his sentry was half dead, and why was his army split apart from eachother.
Could banespeed come out in time against immortal/sentry though? That'd be interesting. It's also probably very map dependent too. I don't see that approach working at all on a map like cloud kingdom.
I agree. Sure, he hits earlier, but it's gotta be with less. I, a diamond Zerg, can offrace and move out at 9:00 with 3 immortals and 8 sentries by 9:00, with no knowledge of the build other than the rough shape of it, and having the mechanics to chronoboost (lol, almost no one remembers to fully chrono their robo. It's like WG -- it takes, what, 150 seconds for 3 immortals? Give or take a bit, but chrono gets you 3 immortals for the time price of two...you'll move out 45-60 seconds earlier just because of it)
Also true, toss was massively out of position I found it pretty unfortunate.
I think another option is to overwhelm the rush before it gets too strong. First time I played against this (unknowingly, and I was like in gold), I cut drones at ~45-50 and had enough speedlings to surround him the moment he stepped onto open ground. Since they're all-in, perhaps it's a good idea to go for a sort of 2base muta/ling strategy with a third hatch? This is obviously something that would have to be reactive, but I feel like you could scout the all-in, cut drones, mass lings and mine gas off 6 geysers, and once the spire pops you can make mutas and drones. It is fairly all-in itself, but mutas will do a TON for you if he has no twilight, no/very few stalkers, and no third base w/ cannons. I tried something similar against my friend (9:20 move out), but I made about 40 drones too many (hehe I'm bad). Either way, 16 mutas were able to completely ruin his economy. He had 6 probes by the time he was able to shoo out my mutas.
If I only made (16x2)+(3x6)=32+18=50 drones, using the 4:30 gas timing like Nestea did in that other thread, massing lings you can overwhelm his push and then kill him with the mutas.
I can't say if this works against good opponents, or is even close to viable, but it looks like a decent option. I believe in MrLlama's video he cut drones around then too (I think, saw it a while ago don't quite remember), and having 12-16 mutas with a lot of lings he won't be able to stop you. All theorycrafting, but seems fun and hopefully is viable. Once defending the all-in you just pump muta/drone, double (or triple, if he killed the third hatch) expand, and he won't be getting a third up anytime soon. It's like 3 base muta, but only 2 bases of minerals and a drone cut at ~50!
Edit: I'm bored of writing an essay, so I'll do the banespeed math: Lair = 80 seconds, extractor = 30 seconds, gas mines ~100 gas/min, bane speed = 110 seconds :C Actually, screw math, I'll just go by relative timings. It comes out 20 seconds earlier than mutas, so a 5:00 gas or 5:30 double gas lair first should be sort of good enough. Goodbye economy, but to survive the all-in it's worth it imo. Aren't speedbanes just like regular banes but a little less unforgiving to the enemy? Seems like it's not worth the fast lair/speed upgrade to me...
On September 06 2012 12:47 Belial88 wrote: Mrllama and mavvie - i'm really not sure about that ling/bane video. I'm not going to say that it's clearly not a good example or evidence, it looks like it has potential. It's not ling/bane drop though, I don't think drops would work at all. That Toss only had 2 immortals instead of 3, and unfortunately warped in a shitton of zealots, which was kind of weird (i get he saw lots of lings, but generally stalkers are the warp in of choice after pushing out). I think if that Toss kept his back against the wall and forcefielded better, he would have had that game. His forcefields were absolutely terrible though. Even at ~9:00 when you engaged with slowlings, he didn't forcefield until his sentry was half dead, and why was his army split apart from eachother.
Could banespeed come out in time against immortal/sentry though? That'd be interesting. It's also probably very map dependent too. I don't see that approach working at all on a map like cloud kingdom.
I agree. Sure, he hits earlier, but it's gotta be with less. I, a diamond Zerg, can offrace and move out at 9:00 with 3 immortals and 8 sentries by 9:00, with no knowledge of the build other than the rough shape of it, and having the mechanics to chronoboost (lol, almost no one remembers to fully chrono their robo. It's like WG -- it takes, what, 150 seconds for 3 immortals? Give or take a bit, but chrono gets you 3 immortals for the time price of two...you'll move out 45-60 seconds earlier just because of it)
Also true, toss was massively out of position I found it pretty unfortunate.
I think another option is to overwhelm the rush before it gets too strong. First time I played against this (unknowingly, and I was like in gold), I cut drones at ~45-50 and had enough speedlings to surround him the moment he stepped onto open ground. Since they're all-in, perhaps it's a good idea to go for a sort of 2base muta/ling strategy with a third hatch? This is obviously something that would have to be reactive, but I feel like you could scout the all-in, cut drones, mass lings and mine gas off 6 geysers, and once the spire pops you can make mutas and drones. It is fairly all-in itself, but mutas will do a TON for you if he has no twilight, no/very few stalkers, and no third base w/ cannons. I tried something similar against my friend (9:20 move out), but I made about 40 drones too many (hehe I'm bad). Either way, 16 mutas were able to completely ruin his economy. He had 6 probes by the time he was able to shoo out my mutas.
If I only made (16x2)+(3x6)=32+18=50 drones, using the 4:30 gas timing like Nestea did in that other thread, massing lings you can overwhelm his push and then kill him with the mutas.
I can't say if this works against good opponents, or is even close to viable, but it looks like a decent option. I believe in MrLlama's video he cut drones around then too (I think, saw it a while ago don't quite remember), and having 12-16 mutas with a lot of lings he won't be able to stop you. All theorycrafting, but seems fun and hopefully is viable. Once defending the all-in you just pump muta/drone, double (or triple, if he killed the third hatch) expand, and he won't be getting a third up anytime soon. It's like 3 base muta, but only 2 bases of minerals and a drone cut at ~50!
Edit: I'm bored of writing an essay, so I'll do the banespeed math: Lair = 80 seconds, extractor = 30 seconds, gas mines ~100 gas/min, bane speed = 110 seconds :C Actually, screw math, I'll just go by relative timings. It comes out 20 seconds earlier than mutas, so a 5:00 gas or 5:30 double gas lair first should be sort of good enough. Goodbye economy, but to survive the all-in it's worth it imo. Aren't speedbanes just like regular banes but a little less unforgiving to the enemy? Seems like it's not worth the fast lair/speed upgrade to me...
If I see no 3rd by toss at ~9 mins I cut my drones at ~55 and just mass units. That way most of time I can stup push right on its tracks with speedlings + roaches. Sometimes I sac some lings to kill the probe (he has not enough to protect it at start of push). If I see him expanding and not pushing I can try to deny his 3rd with untis I got and just drone up. If no 3rd and no push comming long time I try to tech up, and squeeze a bit of drones here and there and not to be greedy.
AFAIK, no gas at natural @ 6:30 means either +1 zealot pressure or all-in, 1 gas is either blink, DTs, stargate, or some kind of robo expand, and 4 gas is a tech-heavy 2-base all-in, on ladder this usually means sentry/immortal. In my experience, 6:45 is the better timing if they opened forge-first (not nexus first), because of worse mechanics and gameplay at my level.
I don't think you should try to identify exactly what build an opponent is doing by looking at the gas count, instead use it to approximate when he is building his gateways (ie assume that he is spending his minerals). No gas means they are building gateways. Early gas means they are teching and postponing the gateways.
AFAIK, no gas at natural @ 6:30 means either +1 zealot pressure or all-in, 1 gas is either blink, DTs, stargate, or some kind of robo expand, and 4 gas is a tech-heavy 2-base all-in, on ladder this usually means sentry/immortal. In my experience, 6:45 is the better timing if they opened forge-first (not nexus first), because of worse mechanics and gameplay at my level.
I don't think you should try to identify exactly what build an opponent is doing by looking at the gas count, instead use it to approximate when he is building his gateways (ie assume that he is spending his minerals). No gas means they are building gateways. Early gas means they are teching and postponing the gateways.
Is that not the same thing, but just less accurate/reliable? While what you say is true, it makes no difference. If he has no gas at 6:30, that means I build a roach warren and get speed first to get roaches out by the time his gateway pressure or all-in hits, because he's getting fast gateways. So I need a fast roach warren. From a theorycrafting point of view, sure, all that matters is the gateway timings. But in game, there's no problem with associating a gas timing with a build. It's basically the same thing, just different wording. Also, many (pro) players don't make gateways until after their third nexus. Stargate expands often have 1 gateway (Oz is an example iirc?)
Ive read the OP through twice, and it seems many of the counter builds rely on blindly taking 2 gas early while teching to lair. Do you guys think 3hatch no gas is dead with such a powerful allin available? I've seen good zerg players scout it and still not be able to pump enough zerg units. Base trade seems risky and your entire army could be sandwiched...right now there seems to not be any reliable way to scout and react from a 3hatch no gas open.
On October 07 2012 00:20 neoghaleon55 wrote: Ive read the OP through twice, and it seems many of the counter builds rely on blindly taking 2 gas early while teching to lair. Do you guys think 3hatch no gas is dead with such a powerful allin available? I've seen good zerg players scout it and still not be able to pump enough zerg units. Base trade seems risky and your entire army could be sandwiched...right now there seems to not be any reliable way to scout and react from a 3hatch no gas open.
You can hold it but you need to execute absolutely PERFECTLY. Delay with a few units (speedlings) as much as possible without losing them, macro perfectly, have good creep spread, bait ff's without getting your stuff caught and attack it from at least two directions. I have seen stephano surround this attack on Ohana from like 3 while it was in the middle of the map, crushing it, but yeah defending it in general is extremely hard.
Plus, you might think OH SHIT HE'S IMMORTAL ALLINING ME and protoss is actually immortal expanding while you sit at your third, terrorized.
On October 07 2012 00:20 neoghaleon55 wrote: Ive read the OP through twice, and it seems many of the counter builds rely on blindly taking 2 gas early while teching to lair. Do you guys think 3hatch no gas is dead with such a powerful allin available? I've seen good zerg players scout it and still not be able to pump enough zerg units. Base trade seems risky and your entire army could be sandwiched...right now there seems to not be any reliable way to scout and react from a 3hatch no gas open.
You can hold it but you need to execute absolutely PERFECTLY. Delay with a few units (speedlings) as much as possible without losing them, macro perfectly, have good creep spread, bait ff's without getting your stuff caught and attack it from at least two directions. I have seen stephano surround this attack on Ohana from like 3 while it was in the middle of the map, crushing it, but yeah defending it in general is extremely hard.
Plus, you might think OH SHIT HE'S IMMORTAL ALLINING ME and protoss is actually immortal expanding while you sit at your third, terrorized.
execute perfectly isn't reliable and it's more relying on the protoss fucking up their forcefields/forcefields-management if anything.
By execute perfectly i meant execute better than your opponent, kinda like when P defends a 1/1/1. I can defend random ladder joe's 111's but a progamer would beat me every time even if i knew before the game it was coming.
It's not only hoping Protoss fucks up his ff's, it's about picking the right fight at the right place, and being able to set it up, rather than waiting with all your roaches sitting at your third.
That said yes, there's openings that aren't 3hatch no gas into roach that make holding far easier, especially ling/baneling stuff and some insanely greedy mutalisk builds...that should be obvious since that army is made to destroy roaches and nothing else Z has.
Also i'm really skeptical about muta builds against it. For one you can't do them against four gate->immortal timing, and ideally you would prefer to just slightly deviate from your build to account for the 4gate and then deviate back into your standard defense, and secondly doing them just when seeing 2 gasses is fairly unreliable in my opinion.
Yeah, Teoita's totally right. In fun news, I actually played a game in an online tourney against MVPTAiLS, he did a slight variation of this all in (only 2 immortals, all 4 gas taken by 5:00 but only 2 in every geyser), moved out just after 9:00 and crushed me. Because of his pylon block I was actually very far behind in the early game (I think taking the third first is worse for the economy than just making 4 lings + a queen then taking your natural; stupid maynarding kills drone count).
A few perfect forcefields later and I lose. I didn't set up my flank well, but honestly he had like 10 FF's left AFTER forcefielding both sides, I was dead no matter what. You definitely have to outplay your opponent or just baserace
I'm pretty convinced that ling/bane is the way to hold this. You get an 8:00 macro hatch, etc. Also, I'm considering drone scouting in ZvP so that I can go hatch first if he goes nexus first, not sure how that will actually work though...
Problem with going away from a roach opening in general is that anything else, especially ling/bane builds, are really unexplored. It would require Z to rebuild their macro openings from scratch or close to it, because you can't go either ling/bane OR roach depending on whether you scout an immortal allin or not. You have to commit to one of the two before the P shows his hand, and there are very very few people in the world that know the style enough to have a good idea of how to react to all the different possible p builds.
Hey any of you ever consider hydra ling against the immortal/sentry allin? It's really amazing at holding it off cleanly. It's actually insane. If hydra speed was in WoL this sort of composition could actually be viable for things other than holding off allns T_T.
I've been experimenting with something that Zenio did a long time ago but I can't really figure out all the scouting indicators for it, and I don't know how well hydra ling would hold up against other pushes or whether I could even get hydras out in time to stop some of the crazy allins like 7 gate.
You take 1 gas @ 430 and add 3 more @ lair. Speed first then lair. Macro hatch @8:00 (standard yay). Then u frontload overlords, plant a spire and a den when the lair pops, and sack your ovies @ 7:20. So far I have it that if you see an allin then you frontload like 10/12 hydras and build lings with the spare minerals. I'm pretty sure that there might be a place to also take a 4th @9:00 because I was usually floating around 400/500 with all the gas gone - either that or take a 5th gas. But TBH I don't want to put too much gas into hydras. They 're really efficient at destroying gateway compositions though.
Once you hold off the push you take your 3rd's gas, drone your 4th for gas, maybe even take a 5th for the gas (yay), place 2 evos for ling upgrades, start spire +1 and then make mutas. Pretty much game, you can bust down the front pretty damn easily with around 11 mutas, leftover hydras, and lings.
At least if he takes a third you can transition painlessly into mass muta.
How do you think that Zerg will have to rebuild their macro openings in order to play a ling bane style? Faster 4th and macro hatch?
On October 07 2012 01:11 Mavvie wrote: (I think taking the third first is worse for the economy than just making 4 lings + a queen then taking your natural; stupid maynarding kills drone count).
The additional maynarding distance compared with having a base at the natural is about 10 ingame seconds which is just a bit over 5 minerals per drone; maybe 7 or so. If you do the build right, you'll be maynarding about half of the drones to the 3rd. So you're looking at about 7x9; 63ish minerals less compared to having the 16 hatch at the natural. You'll get a faster larva inject and creep spread on that base also.
On October 21 2012 00:32 osiris17 wrote: The additional maynarding distance compared with having a base at the natural is about 10 ingame seconds which is just a bit over 5 minerals per drone; maybe 7 or so. If you do the build right, you'll be maynarding about half of the drones to the 3rd. So you're looking at about 7x9; 63ish minerals less compared to having the 16 hatch at the natural. You'll get a faster larva inject and creep spread on that base also.
You will also avoid oversaturation in your main base. And you can go for a 15 pool instead of 14.
On October 20 2012 20:16 Qwyn wrote: Hey any of you ever consider hydra ling against the immortal/sentry allin? It's really amazing at holding it off cleanly. It's actually insane. If hydra speed was in WoL this sort of composition could actually be viable for things other than holding off allns T_T.
I've been experimenting with something that Zenio did a long time ago but I can't really figure out all the scouting indicators for it, and I don't know how well hydra ling would hold up against other pushes or whether I could even get hydras out in time to stop some of the crazy allins like 7 gate.
You take 1 gas @ 430 and add 3 more @ lair. Speed first then lair. Macro hatch @8:00 (standard yay). Then u frontload overlords, plant a spire and a den when the lair pops, and sack your ovies @ 7:20. So far I have it that if you see an allin then you frontload like 10/12 hydras and build lings with the spare minerals. I'm pretty sure that there might be a place to also take a 4th @9:00 because I was usually floating around 400/500 with all the gas gone - either that or take a 5th gas. But TBH I don't want to put too much gas into hydras. They 're really efficient at destroying gateway compositions though.
Once you hold off the push you take your 3rd's gas, drone your 4th for gas, maybe even take a 5th for the gas (yay), place 2 evos for ling upgrades, start spire +1 and then make mutas. Pretty much game, you can bust down the front pretty damn easily with around 11 mutas, leftover hydras, and lings.
At least if he takes a third you can transition painlessly into mass muta.
How do you think that Zerg will have to rebuild their macro openings in order to play a ling bane style? Faster 4th and macro hatch?
That's most....interesting
I tried a different build than you; using standard stephano timings you know, 2x gas at 6:30, 2 more at 7:30, staying on 4 gas and it seems to be, well, really fucking effective.
I kind of outrank the guy who I'm playing against, but he executed it decently well IMO. Hydras with range came in time, and if I took gas faster I could get +1/+1 (melee + ranged attacks) which would kind of crush it. What I've noticed is that if you're trading lings but keeping the hydras alive you'll reach critical mass so fast that no amount of units without AoE can combat it.
I think the magical number is ~15 hydras so you can get a fast infestor/hive tech to outright crush him. You can't make more hydras because, well, every hydra left over after his attack is wasted gas really. The strength of the hydra isn't its strength, but more its range. Even if he forcefields, you're still doing damage, which is awesome.
I think that taking a 9:30 fourth is good too, because you can try to force an engagement there which is usually more open (take cloud kingdom. The fourth is WAY more open than your third, especially down the alley).
Defeating the push still comes down to macro, though. If you don't break 70 food @ 8:00, and if you miss ANY timing, you're fucked. But that's always true I suppose. It was kind of fun practicing ZvP, getting to perfect my timings and larvae management. I went 11 overpool 18 hatch because he did mass pylon blocking every game, and 11 OP is good against that. I believe I played 4 games against him, here they are:
Game 1: http://drop.sc/266323 I overmake hydras and pay the price; his colossi destroy all of them for free because of one bad engagement.
Fast roach drops also may work (symbol did it against squirtle or parting), obviously ff is what makes this build powerful and if you're getting drops anyway maybe you can get some banes although you're already pushing it with 300 gas spent on drop upgrades. Muta builds are probably your best bet though..
Roach drops are okay, but have the same problem as baneling drops: the timing. By the time you get drop tech finished, your third is dead. Same with muta builds; your only option is to baserace with them.
I actually really like the hydra option, I didn't expect it to be true but it shuts this down hard. A speedling flank and it's a free win.
On October 20 2012 20:16 Qwyn wrote: Hey any of you ever consider hydra ling against the immortal/sentry allin? It's really amazing at holding it off cleanly. It's actually insane. If hydra speed was in WoL this sort of composition could actually be viable for things other than holding off allns T_T.
I've been experimenting with something that Zenio did a long time ago but I can't really figure out all the scouting indicators for it, and I don't know how well hydra ling would hold up against other pushes or whether I could even get hydras out in time to stop some of the crazy allins like 7 gate.
You take 1 gas @ 430 and add 3 more @ lair. Speed first then lair. Macro hatch @8:00 (standard yay). Then u frontload overlords, plant a spire and a den when the lair pops, and sack your ovies @ 7:20. So far I have it that if you see an allin then you frontload like 10/12 hydras and build lings with the spare minerals. I'm pretty sure that there might be a place to also take a 4th @9:00 because I was usually floating around 400/500 with all the gas gone - either that or take a 5th gas. But TBH I don't want to put too much gas into hydras. They 're really efficient at destroying gateway compositions though.
Once you hold off the push you take your 3rd's gas, drone your 4th for gas, maybe even take a 5th for the gas (yay), place 2 evos for ling upgrades, start spire +1 and then make mutas. Pretty much game, you can bust down the front pretty damn easily with around 11 mutas, leftover hydras, and lings.
At least if he takes a third you can transition painlessly into mass muta.
How do you think that Zerg will have to rebuild their macro openings in order to play a ling bane style? Faster 4th and macro hatch?
That's most....interesting
I tried a different build than you; using standard stephano timings you know, 2x gas at 6:30, 2 more at 7:30, staying on 4 gas and it seems to be, well, really fucking effective.
I kind of outrank the guy who I'm playing against, but he executed it decently well IMO. Hydras with range came in time, and if I took gas faster I could get +1/+1 (melee + ranged attacks) which would kind of crush it. What I've noticed is that if you're trading lings but keeping the hydras alive you'll reach critical mass so fast that no amount of units without AoE can combat it.
I think the magical number is ~15 hydras so you can get a fast infestor/hive tech to outright crush him. You can't make more hydras because, well, every hydra left over after his attack is wasted gas really. The strength of the hydra isn't its strength, but more its range. Even if he forcefields, you're still doing damage, which is awesome.
I think that taking a 9:30 fourth is good too, because you can try to force an engagement there which is usually more open (take cloud kingdom. The fourth is WAY more open than your third, especially down the alley).
Defeating the push still comes down to macro, though. If you don't break 70 food @ 8:00, and if you miss ANY timing, you're fucked. But that's always true I suppose. It was kind of fun practicing ZvP, getting to perfect my timings and larvae management. I went 11 overpool 18 hatch because he did mass pylon blocking every game, and 11 OP is good against that. I believe I played 4 games against him, here they are:
Game 1: http://drop.sc/266323 I overmake hydras and pay the price; his colossi destroy all of them for free because of one bad engagement.
Game 3: http://drop.sc/266329 This feels like the optimal way to pull it off. Decent macro, great hydra timing, everything lines up perfectly.
Yeah those are about the timings that I have, although I really think that the 1 gas @ 4:30 is stronger because it gets Hydra tech out a bit earlier without sacrificing too much. Right now what I am doing is spire and hydra tech, while taking the other 3 gas @ Lair and leaving 3rd gasless. I pump out around 15 hydras and lings while taking 4th @9:30-10:00 (macro hatch at 8:00) and once I hold the push I take all gas and transition into mutas. It's really up to you what you do after that.
It's suprising how strong this is against gateway centric styles (yay for current meta).
Qwyn, while you get the hydra tech out faster, it does hurt your economy significantly. The standard 7:20 lair off a 6:00 double gas is more than enough time to get hydras + range, and even +1 missiles! I've used 4:30 gas speed->lair macro, and it costs you around 8 drones, unless you can skip the roach warren (ie. you don't get 4gate +1 or 7gated)
Your timings work, and you get hydras out faster...but what do the faster hydras accomplish? It's like 6 pool to deal with a proxy 2 gate.
Also, you'll have one hell of a time defending a plain 7gate, even with the fast speed. Like, it works, but is pretty suboptimal IMO
I think the best transition is into fast infestors. Infestors are great against everything and you can deny his third every time if he does a failed 2 base all in. You can go fast hive if he takes a third. If you keep your infestors alive and trade energy + lings for his gas units, you're golden.
On October 21 2012 06:15 arcane1129 wrote: Sen tried hydra ling the other day in tourney (I forget vs who) on ohana and lost. I don't know if Sen messed up or something, but it didn't work.
I haven't watched the drg vs mc osl games, but did mc use immortal sentry at all?
yeah the standard 2base sentry/immortal on ohana but he lost...
1) mc's push was slightly delayed by standing at his watch tower for a bit of time...not sure why
2) he engaged DRG army in an area why he can be flanked very easily. plus DRG did very well to bait out a bunch of useless ffs. sure MC's forcefield are good but he could not make headway as his forcefields start running out from being used inefficiently like that.
3) DRG anticipated the push anyway. MC alr lost a bunch of games (gglord/festor/spine turtling push and ling/muta if i remb), and was shaken. You can see him start preemptively massing ling/roachs just before MC push out.
What about the nydus play that TLO has showcased? Use nydus to to counter attack with roach ling while sacking your expansions and holding with spines on a ramp. Go back inside the nydus if he tries to bust the spines.
Although if the Protoss knows this is coming he can sack his natural and build cannons in his main followed by warp in sentries to protect the main ramp. The game becomes 1 base vs 1 base which favors the toss.
The next step for the Zerg might be to research drop to bypass the ramp if it stays 1 base vs 1 base for too long.
On October 22 2012 22:11 AzureD wrote: What about the nydus play that TLO has showcased? Use nydus to to counter attack with roach ling while sacking your expansions and holding with spines on a ramp. Go back inside the nydus if he tries to bust the spines.
Although if the Protoss knows this is coming he can sack his natural and build cannons in his main followed by warp in sentries to protect the main ramp. The game becomes 1 base vs 1 base which favors the toss.
The next step for the Zerg might be to research drop to bypass the ramp if it stays 1 base vs 1 base for too long.
I dont think this is viable since immortal sentries have a warp prism nowadays. So protoss can go into the main using the warp prism, and zerg loose. It works mainly thanks to the surprise it provokes. But it cannot be a standard answer to immortal sentry all in.
I have been playing around with my openings in ZvP, and I have to say I may have recently convinced myself to drop 3 hatch completely, not quite sure yet though...
Going with a 2 base gas opener gives me the opportunity to threaten a bane bust at a timing where the typical FFE build only had 2 units on the field, before warp gate is done. This means usually 1, sometimes 2 force fields are possible. A key part of this is to convince the Protoss player that I am looking to expand and kill his scouting probe before he can get more information.
Still, some Protoss players are quite crafty at getting that probe through, and they will often throw down 2-3 extra cannons and chrono out an extra sentry. 1 or 2 force fields is a hugely favorable trade for me, especially if the cyber core is part of the wall-in (killing the cyber core before warp gate finishes is usually gg), but 3+ force fields is generally a busted bust.
That's where Infestor tech comes in.
I have just been leaving my ovie in Ps nat, even until death for the full scout of what he's doing. If I see an adequate defense put up, rather than make banelings, I just tech to Lair, take a late 3rd, saturate everything, and spam spine crawlers/infestors (even to the point where I have no actual combat units since they're so worthless) off 3 base/6 gas. This gives somewhere in the range of 15-20 spines and 8-10 infestors with the typical flow of these games. I am still losing as many as I win with this style, but considering it is completely new to me, it seems promising. As soon as I hold off whatever attack Protoss comes with (it can really be anything at this point, but immortal/sentry is a common one), I tech to Hive, keep pumping Infestors, and double expand again. Catapulting the game into T3 tech as early as the 15 minute mark at times.
I can't emphasize enough that this is new and I am still feeling things out, but so far, it looks promising.
On October 22 2012 22:11 AzureD wrote: What about the nydus play that TLO has showcased? Use nydus to to counter attack with roach ling while sacking your expansions and holding with spines on a ramp. Go back inside the nydus if he tries to bust the spines.
Although if the Protoss knows this is coming he can sack his natural and build cannons in his main followed by warp in sentries to protect the main ramp. The game becomes 1 base vs 1 base which favors the toss.
The next step for the Zerg might be to research drop to bypass the ramp if it stays 1 base vs 1 base for too long.
I dont think this is viable since immortal sentries have a warp prism nowadays. So protoss can go into the main using the warp prism, and zerg loose. It works mainly thanks to the surprise it provokes. But it cannot be a standard answer to immortal sentry all in.
I don't think this will help that much as his mining will be disrupted by the counter attack and he either must spend money defending his base or lose his workers. You might get one warp in past the spine crawlers but this is not too likely to defeat the base defenders he will be making.
Also the interesting thing about nydus is that you can make it wherever your army is currently at so you can call back your whole army in short notice.
My most effective build in ZvP is 2 base ling hydra. Why ? because it requires the protoss to exactly scout it at the right time and go fast colo. If you scout hes going fast colo means he will lack mobility and units to pressure you from taking a 3rd. In that situation I chose to go mutas and if I see him going heavily on stalkers and colo then I'll go corruptor instead of mutas and roach. 2 base hydra ling timing will come sooner than any protoss rushing colo, so you will kill most likely his sentrys, his core, few zealots and stalkers while u expend and go for mutas. It's not standard and as it's not standard thats what makes it very good. I'm playing top master level.
On October 23 2012 03:11 Bellazuk wrote: My most effective build in ZvP is 2 base ling hydra. Why ? because it requires the protoss to exactly scout it at the right time and go fast colo. If you scout hes going fast colo means he will lack mobility and units to pressure you from taking a 3rd. In that situation I chose to go mutas and if I see him going heavily on stalkers and colo then I'll go corruptor instead of mutas and roach. 2 base hydra ling timing will come sooner than any protoss rushing colo, so you will kill most likely his sentrys, his core, few zealots and stalkers while u expend and go for mutas. It's not standard and as it's not standard thats what makes it very good. I'm playing top master level.
Its totally lame, abusing the lack of scouting capabilities that the protoss race has... i dont like it very much
On October 23 2012 03:11 Bellazuk wrote: My most effective build in ZvP is 2 base ling hydra. Why ? because it requires the protoss to exactly scout it at the right time and go fast colo. If you scout hes going fast colo means he will lack mobility and units to pressure you from taking a 3rd. In that situation I chose to go mutas and if I see him going heavily on stalkers and colo then I'll go corruptor instead of mutas and roach. 2 base hydra ling timing will come sooner than any protoss rushing colo, so you will kill most likely his sentrys, his core, few zealots and stalkers while u expend and go for mutas. It's not standard and as it's not standard thats what makes it very good. I'm playing top master level.
With all due respect, I can't imagine a build like that ever working at even a mid masters level.
What does 2 base ling hydra do? It hard counters every 2 base all in (except 2 base colossus all in I guess). Cool. If he scouts your super late third and the # of hydras he really should just take a third once he gets AoE, preferably colossi, while camping his natural behind sentries + cannons. You won't be able to break up the ramp, and you set your economy, upgrades, and other tech super far behind.
Hydra/ling is the answer to immortal/sentry, but not off of 2 bases.
Here's some theorycrafting: Stephano gas timings starts lair ~7:20 Lair takes 80 seconds, so we're at 8:40 by the time lair finishes Hydra den takes 40, so 9:20 is when we can make hydralisks + get the upgrade Hydralisks take 30 seconds + travel time, so we'll definitely have hydras ready to fight at 10:00, which is when the fastest immo/sentry timing can hit you. Fuck yeah, it's like Stephano knows what he's doing.
Assuming you get the hydralisk upgrade as soon as the den pops (it takes 80 seconds), it'll be finished at 10:45ish (nobody's macro is perfect).
So you can get hydras out in time, range will finish in time to be useful. No need to do this on 2 bases.
I think that +1 upgrades can be finished in time if you start them early.
I'm considering 2x gas at 6:00 followed by another 7:00 2x gas to get up to 4 quickly enough to afford hydra range, lair, ling speed, and hydras.
Really, I think this is the way to beat it.
My thoughts on nydus: It's the same thing as baseracing, except you're investing at least 200/200 for a way to reinforce quicker and get back home to defend almost instantly. Not worth it IMO, a heavily spined natural + reinforcing lings should do the trick. 2 base vs 1 Zerg wins, especially considering that Protoss will lose a lot of tech structures even if he perma-forcefields the main.
I'm not convinced hydra range is necessary to hold. Hydras have a lot higher dps and more range than roaches even without the upgrade; I've seen a mid-masters replay of hydra/ling vs sentry/immo without range owning it pretty hard (he was researching drop, a 300/300 investment, and still held easily). I still need to toy around with this but I've been thinking about going standard ling/roach and then going reactive hydras (putting a hydra den down after lair, only 100/100, and building hydras only if I see the allin). Even 5-6 hydras can make a huge difference vs this push, and they don't require energy and have sustained dps (unlike infestors). Also, there's no long-range AOE so as long as you have something shielding them and they're staying alive, they're pretty darned good.
My experience with hydra also tells me 15 is a little high considering the gas investment; 8-10 with roach/ling support seems better for a longer game or if he waits for colossi, and shouldn't make too big of a difference in actually holding the push.
TLO defeated Mana's 2base immortal all in last month with some pretty creative play... Upon scouting the 2base all in, he decided to sack his 3rd and nat, built a ton of spines at the top of his main's ramp, and base raced using nydus. Risky and gimicky but if you can get the nydus up it looks very hard for toss to defend.
Yeah, hydra range isn't necessary. But it helps, so it's worth it. I guess, but you have to keep in mind they're all in. It transitions well into roach/ling/infestor to deny his third (which is 10000x better than a roach/ling max, and nowhere near as all in).
I don't like nydus play. It's a big investment for something that you can do anyways. I'm sure it works, but why would you sac the third AND natural? Just go 10 roaches rest lings so you have gas for nydus, only 3/4 gas, all drones at third turn into spines at natural. ezpz. Then it's 2 base vs 1 and you win.
I'm not too sure that the nydus solution can really become a solid answer to play again and again against 2 base immortals: it was indeed and excellent choice by TLO, but most probably because it took his opponent by surprise, and he didn't react correctly: wouldn't just one or two warp prism drops + warp in far from the spine forest kill the zerg main anyway (especially if they attack the nydus first, to avoid any possible quick defense) ?
Right now what I've been doing is taking normal 2 gas @6 and then taking two more when the lair is halfway done and droning up...you build up a good gas bank and can get around 9-12 hydras against immo/sentry.
I find a very powerful attack is to keep building ling hydra until around 170 supply (12:15) and pushing out /denying third and just trading as much army as possible - it really sets the protoss back and it doesn't matter how much you lose as he can't attack you...you can remake your composition much faster than he can and it only takes around 10-12 hydras to be effective.
I've transitioned into a couple different things... a. Muta/ling, wait until you have around 17-20 mutas and push his third (it really just outright kills him, you can have this by 14 minutes if you take the 9:00 fourth). b. Hydra/ling/corruptor with drops (fun) - you can push with what hydras you have and around 6-8 corruptors and kill him. c. Regular old infestor broodlord (boring wtf).
What I usually do after the timing push is muta ling...plant double evo, spire, and get 4th gas immediately, definitely 6th macro hatch. It's so easy to just overwhelm the protoss.
What I've done against delayed immortal/sentry pushes is just outright killed him. This is really weird as it is something that I have not done before (this whole mentality of being as aggressive as possible and trying to kill the toss instead of waiting for infestor/broodlord). It feels really strong but is something that I'm easing into. If protoss takes an earlier third...you can just kill him.
There's a lot of situations where protoss just gets overwhelmed by this ling/hydra. The trick is in making lings off of around 6 hatches...you can clean up whatever remnants remain even if you don't win the first engagement. I'm never going to build roaches anymore unless there's a 7gate (just get safety-net warren).
On October 23 2012 05:39 Defenestrator wrote: I'm not convinced hydra range is necessary to hold. Hydras have a lot higher dps and more range than roaches even without the upgrade; I've seen a mid-masters replay of hydra/ling vs sentry/immo without range owning it pretty hard (he was researching drop, a 300/300 investment, and still held easily). I still need to toy around with this but I've been thinking about going standard ling/roach and then going reactive hydras (putting a hydra den down after lair, only 100/100, and building hydras only if I see the allin). Even 5-6 hydras can make a huge difference vs this push, and they don't require energy and have sustained dps (unlike infestors). Also, there's no long-range AOE so as long as you have something shielding them and they're staying alive, they're pretty darned good.
My experience with hydra also tells me 15 is a little high considering the gas investment; 8-10 with roach/ling support seems better for a longer game or if he waits for colossi, and shouldn't make too big of a difference in actually holding the push.
Honestly I would just take out roaches completely. They are useless after 13 minutes, why would you keep them in your composition at all? Every roach I build seems like a wasted piece of crap . This hydra timing is amazing because it reacts well against standard play and any bullshit that the toss might do that you miss scouting (proxy double stargate).
Yeah you don't have to get range, but you might as well considering how powerful they are against today's meta. You can afford range, drop and ovie-speed if you cut evo upgrades until after the push is held and make sure to frontload around 8-12 hydras (not saying I do that but it is possible).
The thing that is different about this composition compared to roach ling is that you can straight up kill the protoss with range. It's really weird. Just have good ling control so you don't lose them behind a FF wall and make sure to lead in with the hydras (bring lings in front @ engage). If you can get a surround it's even better b/c the protoss is being battered to pieces and can't escape. It's such a power composition.
Ling roach is one of those compositions with a severe timer...@ 13 and after it just becomes useless, but with hydra range you can transition into a lot of different styles without the need for infestors to hold a push or be aggressive (as compared to roach/ling, which needs infestors if you want to do any sort of aggression, and even then most players don't and use it defensively...because it will just die).
While he switches to collosi you have a good window in time where you can get your tech of choice out (you can have it out by 14 or earlier) and hydras are not bad against 2 collosi. It's when the count gets to 3-4 that it is difficult for you to survive off of hydra/ling. But if you are aggressive as possible you can keep his ball to a minimum and deny his third, which is all that really matters.
It's really amazing against immo/sentry meta, which was designed to hold efficiently against roach/ling...it's pretty interesting how much the game has changed.
On October 23 2012 08:09 Qwyn wrote: It's really amazing against immo/sentry meta, which was designed to hold efficiently against roach/ling...it's pretty interesting how much the game has changed.
I find this pretty hilarious as well. Completely agree. Hydras went from good at the beginning to shit a little later (when toss meta was colossi-heavy) to pretty damned good again with the stalker/immo midgame. I definitely prefer hydra before infestor vs 2-base allins because they come out a lot faster, are not energy-dependent (infestors obviously get a lot better the more time that they're out), and require less gas.
I'm not very good with hydra/ling comps in general (I like the meaty roach shield) but I should toy around with it more.
Be aware if you are doing ling/hydra that it's bad on attack vs. sentry immortal, with good defensive positioning and building walls they can FF you out for weeks. Ling/hydra is good for defense, but it shouldn't be very useful if they use the immortal/sentry composition to take a third base.
Maybe throw down the hydra den and then not use it unless the attack moves out? It builds very quickly, and if you are going to skip range anyway, it seems like a decent investment.
I appreciate the discussion and think it's really cool that all this experimentation has been going on!
In my humble opinion, I think that hydras are worthless. The only reason that they're better than infestors against sentry/immortal is because of the timing. Hydra is the /only/ lair tech that is fast enough to get out in time for the sentry/immortal timing, which is why it's the only one that's viable. Hydralisks are terrible; by the time you cross the map he can get a colossus out. They're good against sentry/immortal, but Protoss is only one tech upgrade away from making every hydralisk a waste of gas.
I'm not against a ling/hydra/infestor timing where, because of the previous investment, you replace roaches with hydras (ranged units to kill zealots and stalkers), but it would only work if they do a failed 2 base all in that forces you to make hydras.
I'd only make them if you need to in order to survive the 2 base timing.
On October 23 2012 08:33 Whitewing wrote: Be aware if you are doing ling/hydra that it's bad on attack vs. sentry immortal, with good defensive positioning and building walls they can FF you out for weeks. Ling/hydra is good for defense, but it shouldn't be very useful if they use the immortal/sentry composition to take a third base.
Maybe throw down the hydra den and then not use it unless the attack moves out?
Yeah I think this is a good idea, since it's only 100/100 you don't have to overcommit to hydras, because as we all know overcommitting to hydras is not a fun way to die =P
Roach/hydra can attack into a midgame toss army without too much problem. Due to the range, hydras (and roaches, to an extent) can just shoot over FF's in most scenarios. Attacking a toss at his nat and 3rd simultaneously with roach/hydra at least enables you to trade armies; you may not do so cost-effectively, but if you're preventing his 3rd you don't need to be that cost effective since you have a much better eco. Not as sure about hydra/ling; it depends on how much you let your lings get FF'd, pretty much.
Also when I've done made a safety hydra den in my games, toss players who see my hydra den with an observer first of all assume that I will:
1. automatically lose since I'm going hydra and 2. tend to overmake colossus (not the world's worst unit to overmake, but still).
Instead I just don't make any hydras and go about my business. It's worked out pretty well for me.
Hmm that might be true but I only say that I am aggressive because I prefer to do something with the hydras instead of just leaving them....while I techswitch to muta. They can "FF me out for weeks" with their building wall but I'm also killing the wall and wasting FFs. ..and they can't really engage me until they get 2-3 collosi.
I'm not waiting to defend the allin anymore. I just straight up attack and kill it. Being aggressive with this comp requires some finess (you can't be a moron with ur lings) and obviously hydras are pretty damn slow, but the value in it is that it cleans up the allin and puts pressure back on the toss.
It's obviously a matter of reads...if you see him expand you cut hydra production. But as long as he is allining you they are amazing. And they aren't as bad as people make them out to be. They are slow, but this is manageable.
And yes their whole purpose is to stop the allin that's why I thought about using them in the first place .
I'd much rather be doing ling/muta but they are a nice stepping stone to getting there uncontested off of 8 gas. I just have been experimenting with hydra aggression because it is something that NO ONE does because everone universally assumes that they are terrible (because, yes, in many cases they are) and I just don't think they are as bad here as people make them out to be. They have a place, now, at least for me. And I haven't even explored other options.
I can get to 177 hydra/ling @12:15 and can be knocking on the door of the third (while also saturating 4th base gas)before he has a collosi or range out (1 at most), and it shatters stalker immortal sentry. And considering the production you have @home it seems pretty damn strong. You should already have the spire planted and almost done @ this time, and as soon as you get the 4th base gas you can be doing ling/muta max and crack what's left of his army. --- I'm looking at the ling/bane counter, now, specifically (because that style is fucking fun!). I have a way to beat the allin consistently now in hydra/ling and I'm very pleased. It doesn't require silly basetrades, I don't have to cut drones at all, and I can be aggressive and straight up attack instead of constantly pulling back and losing to silly FF walls, bad egagements and other shit like that. Actually three times now I didn't even look/micro the engagement (lol) and I still came out just fine.
Now obviously against two base collosus timings this wouldn't be effective but that's a different read. I'm not suggesting to make hydras blindly, I'm saying that you can choose to be aggressive with them if you scout gateway-centric plays into 3rd, immo/sentry allins, and other weird shit (stargate >>), because if you have reasonably good macro you can get a strong supply army that is much more competent at dishing out damage than roach/ling ever will be.
the best way to counter a immortal sentry push is by counterattacking and nydus. you overdrone (saturate all three bases including gas) as soon as you see him going for a early robo. you reach that saturation by about 8.30-8.45. the earliest time he can move out is 9.30.
Then you go for a huge swing of roaches (~16) and lings to counterattack the protoss as soon as he commits to the attack. While that youre teching to infestors, getting a nydus and dumb all your minerals into spines at your natural. You move all the drones from the third to your natural, you just leave three in gas. You kill protoss natural with all his tech and rescue due the nydusworm to support your infestor spine holding your natural. Then you have 2 base vs 1 base. P is fucked and cant afford a colossi or anything else transition while youre massing up infestors.
If you somehow missread the situation and he goes for a fast third nexus, you have a bombastic eco and tech due the overdroning. You dont build the nydus or the spinewall before protoss moves out.
This works against high masters and GMs. TLO has also shown a similiar technique quite successfully in recent times
^Yeah, I believe that I recommend that in the OP as the best way to deal with it.......just without nydus. it's a nice touch, but totally not required.
He can move out way before 9:30. 9:00 is standard move out time. On Ohana he can be hitting your third right at 10:00.
Baseracing is mentioned in the OP. It's the best, easiest solution. I'm just saying that hydras can be used to kill the push instead of being forced to baserace. Just get infestor pit + hydra den if you suspect sentry/immo. Start pathogen glands unless he moves out. If he moves out fast, make hydras. If he's delayed, make infestors. If he takes a third, make infestors + take a fourth. Easy.
No matter what, though, if you go past 70 drones you can't defend or baserace(without nydus). Stop at 65 really, for any tech-based 2 base all in. 8:00 macro hatch, bam.
Of course he can move out at 9.00, but you need to consider that you will pump out a round of units no matter what before that time. So if he just moves out with 2-3 immortals and some sentries, without any support, you could basically directly engage him on the middle of the map. P needs the next Warpin to move out in that cases, so 9.30 is correct.
Btw, yea youre right about the 65 drones, but i didnt mention something different. 3 Bases: 3 x 16 + 3 x 6 = 66
I still dont see why you would go for hydras. Lets just consider the Ohana case, where its most difficult in my opinion to hold that push. If he really wants to push up your ramp and kill you at 10:00, he will definately lose his natural, and furthermore his main or at least crucial tech structurs in it, because he cant spend warpins at home to defend. You maybe wont have infestors out already, but you have at least 6-10 Spines with 4 Queens (4 Queens is standard going fast 3 hatch) at your natural holding, with some lings and maybe even some drones to buffer, while your infestors (~5+ of them) are almost spawned and your nydus is ready to maybe fall back with your roach ling if need be. There is no window for the Protoss. If Protoss decides to kill your third - say thank you. You forced a 2 vs 1 base situation where you have all your tech structurs and a ton of infestors ready, against neither colossi nor templars
Hydras are just a terrible unit, you can achieve the same thing with infestors, just by getting more of them. I really dont feel like hydras have any place in zvt or zvp. In some situations they are good, youre right. But infestors will always be better - and dont forget, there are never too many infestors :-)
As useless as hydras are, they counter sentry immortal well. You'll easily be able to scout this by just sending lings in (either up the ramp, or if they take their nat, straight into the nat). If you see ~50% of sentries or more in the army and you know they have a robo, may as well just tech hydras, and then go for a spire after. (the hydralisks deal more dps than the mutalisks, and are going to do far more damage vs the sentries (10 damage instead of a mutalisks 7, with a faster attack speed) And then once you defend the push you can expand, and then start the spire for the possibility of collosus coming out.
On October 26 2012 03:59 doggy wrote: why do you consider hydras as a solution?
the best way to counter a immortal sentry push is by counterattacking and nydus. you overdrone (saturate all three bases including gas) as soon as you see him going for a early robo. you reach that saturation by about 8.30-8.45. the earliest time he can move out is 9.30.
Then you go for a huge swing of roaches (~16) and lings to counterattack the protoss as soon as he commits to the attack. While that youre teching to infestors, getting a nydus and dumb all your minerals into spines at your natural. You move all the drones from the third to your natural, you just leave three in gas. You kill protoss natural with all his tech and rescue due the nydusworm to support your infestor spine holding your natural. Then you have 2 base vs 1 base. P is fucked and cant afford a colossi or anything else transition while youre massing up infestors. times
The protoss will have expanded by 9:30. If they havent, then you'll be able to defend against this attack even easier. Dumping a bunch of spines and massing roaches against mass immorals is about the least intelligent thing you can do. It takes 10 spine crawler hits to just take down the sheilds of a single immortal, as an immortal can trounce through the defences, not to mention you can work your way at a certain angle to minimize the damage the immortals take. You will lose the base trade in this case, even with lings at your nat (sentries just ff lings, lings = useless)
On October 27 2012 04:37 BigDates wrote: As useless as hydras are, they counter sentry immortal well. You'll easily be able to scout this by just sending lings in (either up the ramp, or if they take their nat, straight into the nat). If you see ~50% of sentries or more in the army and you know they have a robo, may as well just tech hydras, and then go for a spire after. (the hydralisks deal more dps than the mutalisks, and are going to do far more damage vs the sentries (10 damage instead of a mutalisks 7, with a faster attack speed) And then once you defend the push you can expand, and then start the spire for the possibility of collosus coming out.
On October 26 2012 03:59 doggy wrote: why do you consider hydras as a solution?
the best way to counter a immortal sentry push is by counterattacking and nydus. you overdrone (saturate all three bases including gas) as soon as you see him going for a early robo. you reach that saturation by about 8.30-8.45. the earliest time he can move out is 9.30.
Then you go for a huge swing of roaches (~16) and lings to counterattack the protoss as soon as he commits to the attack. While that youre teching to infestors, getting a nydus and dumb all your minerals into spines at your natural. You move all the drones from the third to your natural, you just leave three in gas. You kill protoss natural with all his tech and rescue due the nydusworm to support your infestor spine holding your natural. Then you have 2 base vs 1 base. P is fucked and cant afford a colossi or anything else transition while youre massing up infestors. times
The protoss will have expanded by 9:30. If they havent, then you'll be able to defend against this attack even easier. Dumping a bunch of spines and massing roaches against mass immorals is about the least intelligent thing you can do. It takes 10 spine crawler hits to just take down the sheilds of a single immortal, as an immortal can trounce through the defences, not to mention you can work your way at a certain angle to minimize the damage the immortals take. You will lose the base trade in this case, even with lings at your nat (sentries just ff lings, lings = useless)
Reading is difficult, isnt it? You will never engage the immortal based army with your roaches, as i mentioned, you even quoted it. If they scout you going for hydras, they can just get their third slightly later and go for a 3 base colossi timing which will most likely rape you. The Spinecrawlers are also not there to kill the immortals. nor the lings - as i mentioned, theyre just - combined with queens, and maybe some drone buffer, your buying time method while your infestors are building.
And btw, no, hydras DONT counter a immo sentry push well. They only do if P screws his forcefields up. You can zone out hydras pretty well, even with the range upgrade. Maybe opinions are different on that, but i bet that everyone is sure about infestors being better (especially vs gateway immo armys) instead of hydras. I played this counterattack strategy my last 20 zvps and NEVER have lost to this push. It doesnt matter how its executed or how good the Protoss is. And btw, if you would have any idea how the game works you wouldnt be a platinum league player. Im pretty sure that you dont have the understanding to give any advice to higher level play
I'm mid masters for reference and use spines, +1 melee lings from 4 hatches and infestors. The build I use to get there is the standard Stephano one, and it works fine so far.
Spines are actually awesome, you do have to spread creep in front of your third but it's worth it. Infestors come a bit too late most of the time but lings and spines are sufficient to buy time, plus the spines force the protoss to bunch up, which is perfect for fungals and +1 lings chew through everything once the protoss is out of forcefields.
On October 27 2012 04:37 BigDates wrote: As useless as hydras are, they counter sentry immortal well. You'll easily be able to scout this by just sending lings in (either up the ramp, or if they take their nat, straight into the nat). If you see ~50% of sentries or more in the army and you know they have a robo, may as well just tech hydras, and then go for a spire after. (the hydralisks deal more dps than the mutalisks, and are going to do far more damage vs the sentries (10 damage instead of a mutalisks 7, with a faster attack speed) And then once you defend the push you can expand, and then start the spire for the possibility of collosus coming out.
On October 26 2012 03:59 doggy wrote: why do you consider hydras as a solution?
the best way to counter a immortal sentry push is by counterattacking and nydus. you overdrone (saturate all three bases including gas) as soon as you see him going for a early robo. you reach that saturation by about 8.30-8.45. the earliest time he can move out is 9.30.
Then you go for a huge swing of roaches (~16) and lings to counterattack the protoss as soon as he commits to the attack. While that youre teching to infestors, getting a nydus and dumb all your minerals into spines at your natural. You move all the drones from the third to your natural, you just leave three in gas. You kill protoss natural with all his tech and rescue due the nydusworm to support your infestor spine holding your natural. Then you have 2 base vs 1 base. P is fucked and cant afford a colossi or anything else transition while youre massing up infestors. times
The protoss will have expanded by 9:30. If they havent, then you'll be able to defend against this attack even easier. Dumping a bunch of spines and massing roaches against mass immorals is about the least intelligent thing you can do. It takes 10 spine crawler hits to just take down the sheilds of a single immortal, as an immortal can trounce through the defences, not to mention you can work your way at a certain angle to minimize the damage the immortals take. You will lose the base trade in this case, even with lings at your nat (sentries just ff lings, lings = useless)
Reading is difficult, isnt it? You will never engage the immortal based army with your roaches, as i mentioned, you even quoted it. If they scout you going for hydras, they can just get their third slightly later and go for a 3 base colossi timing which will most likely rape you. The Spinecrawlers are also not there to kill the immortals. nor the lings - as i mentioned, theyre just - combined with queens, and maybe some drone buffer, your buying time method while your infestors are building.
And btw, no, hydras DONT counter a immo sentry push well. They only do if P screws his forcefields up. You can zone out hydras pretty well, even with the range upgrade. Maybe opinions are different on that, but i bet that everyone is sure about infestors being better (especially vs gateway immo armys) instead of hydras. I played this counterattack strategy my last 20 zvps and NEVER have lost to this push. It doesnt matter how its executed or how good the Protoss is. And btw, if you would have any idea how the game works you wouldnt be a platinum league player. Im pretty sure that you dont have the understanding to give any advice to higher level play
Why are you being so rude?
Everything he said is true. As I'm sure you know, a standard sentry/immo timing doesn't get an observer until after 3 immortals and a warp prism. He actually can't "scout hydras" and then reactively take a third. He'll find out you're going hydras when his army gets sandwiched by ling/hydra and all dies.
I'm not saying hydras are the best way to counter sentry/immortal. They aren't. But they seem to be the only way to engage it head-on, and the timings just work SO well for it.
I'll definitely try out the spine/queen/ling to buy time for infestors, but I don't see it as viable. It takes 3 fungals to kill a sentry clump, so that's 600 gas (pathogen glands is 150 I think). 600 gas is also 12 hydras, and 12 hydras aren't useless once they cast their one spell.
It doesn't have to be your favourite method, but it works and you can't run around saying it doesn't.
Seeing how Parting said he did the build about 70 times and no zerg has stopped him means most likely that all the zerg that he faces haven't tried something yet or the build is actually not suppose to fail unless the toss messes up. I don't like to think that's true, but until someone defends his immortal sentry all-in and is ahead or even, i guess we have to require the toss to mess up. The only thing I see possibly working is base trade and nydus his main while sacrificing your 3rd and nat and spinning up your main while taking out both of their bases.
On October 28 2012 05:18 LonelyClock wrote: Seeing how Parting said he did the build about 70 times and no zerg has stopped him means most likely that all the zerg that he faces haven't tried something yet or the build is actually not suppose to fail unless the toss messes up. I don't like to think that's true, but until someone defends his immortal sentry all-in and is ahead or even, i guess we have to require the toss to mess up. The only thing I see possibly working is base trade and nydus his main while sacrificing your 3rd and nat and spinning up your main while taking out both of their bases.
That is...insanely confident. It kinda explains why there is no definite answer in this thread. If guys Parting practice against can't come up with a good answer, it's even harder for us.
Played that push about 300 times (~top 50 overall master EU). I want to say its not imba, but the only way to defend is perfect BO from zerg player. Basically you need to play Stephano style with 61, maybe 58 drones or something like that and split your army.
You cant win with basetrade, you cant win with nydus, I dont even talk about hydras, its a joke. Basetrade works only against slow immortal push or bad BO from protoss player.
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
On October 28 2012 05:18 LonelyClock wrote: Seeing how Parting said he did the build about 70 times and no zerg has stopped him means most likely that all the zerg that he faces haven't tried something yet or the build is actually not suppose to fail unless the toss messes up. I don't like to think that's true, but until someone defends his immortal sentry all-in and is ahead or even, i guess we have to require the toss to mess up. The only thing I see possibly working is base trade and nydus his main while sacrificing your 3rd and nat and spinning up your main while taking out both of their bases.
That is...insanely confident. It kinda explains why there is no definite answer in this thread. If guys Parting practice against can't come up with a good answer, it's even harder for us.
On October 28 2012 18:46 pprrii wrote: Played that push about 300 times (~top 50 overall master EU). I want to say its not imba, but the only way to defend is perfect BO from zerg player. Basically you need to play Stephano style with 61, maybe 58 drones or something like that and split your army.
You cant win with basetrade, you cant win with nydus, I dont even talk about hydras, its a joke. Basetrade works only against slow immortal push or bad BO from protoss player.
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
when a top protoss like parting says he almost never loses to his teammates using immortalsentry (yes, LIFE, the GSL champion is his teammate), you have to realize its either that nobody has found the counter, or it geniunely is impossible to hold
Before you guys panic too much remember that this is an extremely difficult all-in to pull off. Even top protosses like MC and Rain have lost games trying to do it. Your average ladder protoss is not going to be able to do perfect FFs, juggle immortals and warp-in units at the same time the way Parting does. Heck the vast majority of ladder protosses won't even be able to get the units out as fast as Parting does.
On October 28 2012 05:18 LonelyClock wrote: Seeing how Parting said he did the build about 70 times and no zerg has stopped him means most likely that all the zerg that he faces haven't tried something yet or the build is actually not suppose to fail unless the toss messes up. I don't like to think that's true, but until someone defends his immortal sentry all-in and is ahead or even, i guess we have to require the toss to mess up. The only thing I see possibly working is base trade and nydus his main while sacrificing your 3rd and nat and spinning up your main while taking out both of their bases.
That is...insanely confident. It kinda explains why there is no definite answer in this thread. If guys Parting practice against can't come up with a good answer, it's even harder for us.
no, you cant stop parting's wonwonwon (immortal sentry), because he has too much soul, in order to defend, you need more soul.
on a more serios note, there has to be a counter to this, nothing is unstoppable, nobody has found the counter yet tho
Then why did blizzard buff the immortal to deal with the 1-1-1? Surely, that wasn't impossible to hold either. Yes, the toss does have to land good force fields. But it still seems a lot easier to execute than to defend. Which is a problem.
On October 28 2012 18:46 pprrii wrote: Played that push about 300 times (~top 50 overall master EU). I want to say its not imba, but the only way to defend is perfect BO from zerg player. Basically you need to play Stephano style with 61, maybe 58 drones or something like that and split your army.
You cant win with basetrade, you cant win with nydus, I dont even talk about hydras, its a joke. Basetrade works only against slow immortal push or bad BO from protoss player.
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
when a top protoss like parting says he almost never loses to his teammates using immortalsentry (yes, LIFE, the GSL champion is his teammate), you have to realize its either that nobody has found the counter, or it geniunely is impossible to hold
I think he is bluffing. If you see Rain vs DRG games you will know why there is reason to bluff
On October 28 2012 18:46 pprrii wrote: Played that push about 300 times (~top 50 overall master EU). I want to say its not imba, but the only way to defend is perfect BO from zerg player. Basically you need to play Stephano style with 61, maybe 58 drones or something like that and split your army.
You cant win with basetrade, you cant win with nydus, I dont even talk about hydras, its a joke. Basetrade works only against slow immortal push or bad BO from protoss player.
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
Because protoss whined so much about 1-1-1 that they got a immortal buff. So zergs are now whining and hoping they can get a buff. I am sure most of the terrans felt they have to play the 1-1-1 perfectly and toss on ladder didn't play close to perfect either.
On October 28 2012 18:46 pprrii wrote: Played that push about 300 times (~top 50 overall master EU). I want to say its not imba, but the only way to defend is perfect BO from zerg player. Basically you need to play Stephano style with 61, maybe 58 drones or something like that and split your army.
You cant win with basetrade, you cant win with nydus, I dont even talk about hydras, its a joke. Basetrade works only against slow immortal push or bad BO from protoss player.
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
when a top protoss like parting says he almost never loses to his teammates using immortalsentry (yes, LIFE, the GSL champion is his teammate), you have to realize its either that nobody has found the counter, or it geniunely is impossible to hold
I think he is bluffing. If you see Rain vs DRG games you will know why there is reason to bluff
Yeah, but Rain's version has less soul. Honestly, there is a problem when PartinG uses this pretty much EVERY game against zerg now.
On October 28 2012 18:46 pprrii wrote: Played that push about 300 times (~top 50 overall master EU). I want to say its not imba, but the only way to defend is perfect BO from zerg player. Basically you need to play Stephano style with 61, maybe 58 drones or something like that and split your army.
You cant win with basetrade, you cant win with nydus, I dont even talk about hydras, its a joke. Basetrade works only against slow immortal push or bad BO from protoss player.
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
I agree so, so, so much about the ~60 drones part. I feel like I kill myself nearly every game by going to 75.
You can win with basetrade, I'm not sure about Nydus though. Hydras might be viable, but honestly I can't get it to work against a high level opponent. I feel that, again, if I cut drones at 65 I would be able to hold though.
I don't think it's fair at all. If I can fucking offrace and move out at 8:55, despite almost never playing Protoss, it's not really difficult to execute. Gasless 3 hatch is pretty easy too (though a little harder IMO, not much though), but nothing I do can stop MY OWN sentry/immortal all-in. Attacking the third before 10:00 is crazy. I'll have, like, 10 roaches and 20 lings? Yeah that'll work. It hits before tech, it hits before production, I honestly think that the only way to stop it is either with a full on baserace or with ~5 spines at third and 5 at natural. You can't attack into a spine forest, but even this won't work on most maps.
The problem with the all-in isn't macro. It isn't the immortals. It isn't the upgrades, the warp prism, anything. The reason that it's so strong is forcefields. A wise man once said, "Forcefield good unit." On some maps you can just abuse the shit out of the terrain - take Antiga, Cloud, Shakuras, TDA (I don't play on it, but it would be strong IMO). I played against MVPTAiLS once in a tourney, I saw his 2 immortals and 9 sentries and was like "lol, get fucked" and dove in with a triple flank of mass roach/ling...didn't matter because his forcefields were so good that I could've been maxed and I wouldn't have killed a single of his 11 units.
I'm not claiming "imbalance" per se, I'm just saying it's a shitload easier to execute than to defend, and it's really probably impossible to defend (see ST_PartinG interview).
Just to add to that, you can't even baserace against PartinG; he sets up a secondary wall at the top of his ramp.
Just to add to that, you can't even baserace against PartinG; he sets up a secondary wall at the top of his ramp.
Like i do. Thats why basetrade is not working against this. Then just warpin some sentry Also i prefer less sentry, more zealots, because most of zerg players now make a lot of zerglings.
I kinda don't want to watch a full daily on what I think is useless against a good Protoss. It's like a regular baserace, just slightly different (mainly you spine your main instead of natural, which is WAY worse). High ground wall + sentries from Protoss and it's 1 base vs 1 base, so you lose...
I've recently played a few people that wait till right before they move out to put down 3-4 more gates so it looks like they are expanding it is just ridiculous unless you are planning for it 100% you don't even have a chance to hold still.
Does anyone have any experience with going tunneling claws first against this?
Or even double roach warren?
I haven't tried it, nor seen it tried. 3 immortals will still own your roaches very quickly, but does it let you get a good trade (ie kill sentries) in the first fight?
On October 29 2012 05:52 Oboeman wrote: Does anyone have any experience with going tunneling claws first against this?
Or even double roach warren?
I haven't tried it, nor seen it tried. 3 immortals will still own your roaches very quickly, but does it let you get a good trade (ie kill sentries) in the first fight?
I actually totally forgot about this. I don't even think this needs a double roach warren because that would cost a bit too much and if scouted will just force the toss to defend and take a little later 3rd. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for the Immortal/Sentry all-in Parting does he doesn't use an obs. If that is the case then burrow roaches "might" work. And if they do get an observer maybe by that time our production is actually good enough to stop it. Again this is assuming Parting's style has no obs (I didn't even think to check about on obs in his game vs. Losira, but I think he didn't).
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
I think this says a lot about game balance and relative skill it takes to play the races. Protoss can just FFE, do immortal all in without even having to adjust to watch zerg does, brainlessly follow a build order because it's easy and don't have to worry about any real harasses. Then protoss players think this is "perfect play". Maybe it is perfect play because protoss is that much easier to play.
The protoss player then has a sense of entitlement because no zerg plays 'even close to perfect'. Yeah it's because zerg is much harder to play when facing this strategy whereas Protoss just mindlessly follows the build order and auto wins. No pro zerg has figured out a solution to this build, there's a reason for that. Also, sorry but your "perfect" forcefields are actually a reflection of how broken this build is, protoss already has such an advantage, forcefields just rape even harder.
On October 29 2012 01:06 Mavvie wrote: Baserace can still work. If you spine your natural instead of your main, it's then 2 base vs 1 where your lair tech is done. Mutas, anyone?
Yeah Immortals and Zealots cares a lot about spine crawler wall ...:D Seriously, its just 1 zealots warp in and A-move into spine forrest and spines died very quickly
On October 29 2012 05:52 Oboeman wrote: Does anyone have any experience with going tunneling claws first against this?
Or even double roach warren?
I haven't tried it, nor seen it tried. 3 immortals will still own your roaches very quickly, but does it let you get a good trade (ie kill sentries) in the first fight?
I have tried you just don't have the roach count when it matters. If you can surprise them maybe but the amount of roaches you have when he goes at 9-10 min just isn't enough especially if you didn't know the all in was coming.
Just want to say I've faced this build many times and I've only beaten it when they make a major mistake. I'm a top 8 Diamond Zerg with 200+ APM and yesterday I lost to a mid gold player in a custom game that did this build. Even a gold player can make the buildings at the right time and just a move and spam FF. I scouted it very early (saw the robo being built) and made nothing but units off of 73 drones. Still lost handily even with 5 spines at my third and harassing his army from the second he left his base. Keep in mind I regularly beat top diamond/low master Z/T/P in normal macro games. If this build is so incredibly easy a gold player has no problem learning it in two hours and then can take games from High Diamond/Low Masters players, it's a joke and is absolutely no different from the Terran 1/1/1 that Protoss cried about for so long and got nerfed.
I have a friend that is a mid gold Zerg I'm going to teach this build to tonight and I'll post replays of him beating myself and some high masters friends with it. If you can learn it in a few hours and can beat people 2+ leagues higher than you, it's not skill and it's certainly not starcraft.
it does seem problematic; though i should note that it's also a highly optimized build, most counterbuild attempts haven't had nearly as much refinement put into them as this build has. Balancing would go better if blizz addressed core issues sooner, rather than dancing around the issue; forcefields have been trouble from day 1, warpgate too. Is there a list of alternate strats that have been tried to counter this? Have you tried smaller drone counts nefarious? how does burrow work in terms of buying time for more tech to come out? I'm not a great player mechanically, but i'm good at analyzing strats, i'd love to talk to people about possible counters.
There's your problem. Toss has 44 probes. If you had time to drone to 73, it was either not anywhere near a standard immortal all in (with a move out at or just before the 9 minute mark and an engagement around 10) and you misread it completely and played badly, or you droned to 73 and are complaining that you failed to defeat a 44-worker all in which hit before you built a significant army.
If he's not engaging you at these sharp timings or overprobes a bunch, then the reaction you need is completely different, and its not textbook immortal all in, its a slow and weird immortal push that you should be reacting to differently and correctly.
^Yeah. MrLlama defends it with a 50 drone ling/bane sorta thing, seems smart. Mass ling/bane if he moves out at 9:00, otherwise drone up and get infestors. Seems pretty legit, might try it. Often Protoss's forcefields aren't perfect, but they're good enough to deal with roach/ling. However if the lings explode and eliminate all traces of sentries instantaneously, it might be a good idea. I'll probably have to try it out more. I'm not adding content to the OP because I'm personally not totally convinced about these methods. If someone writes out a post outlining the method, and has masters+ level replays to back it up, I'll definitely add it. But I can't even trust my own skill level; I thought hydras were viable
"Has Life, your teammate, been able to stop your Immortal rushes?
In practice matches, I've performed around 70 Immortal timing attacks, and I have never seen anyone block one. There are no Zergs who can defend against my Immortal rush in Wings of Liberty. If a Zerg player ever comes out who can stop my attack, he will be able to beat me.
Numerous people have wanted to learn the secret to my Immortal attacks, but even if you check out my VODs, you won't be able to find out. If I manage to win the Code S championship, I will reveal the secret to my Immortal rush, so if there are any other Protosses who want to know, they'll have to cheer for me to win."
On October 29 2012 05:52 Oboeman wrote: Does anyone have any experience with going tunneling claws first against this?
Or even double roach warren?
I haven't tried it, nor seen it tried. 3 immortals will still own your roaches very quickly, but does it let you get a good trade (ie kill sentries) in the first fight?
I actually totally forgot about this. I don't even think this needs a double roach warren because that would cost a bit too much and if scouted will just force the toss to defend and take a little later 3rd. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for the Immortal/Sentry all-in Parting does he doesn't use an obs. If that is the case then burrow roaches "might" work. And if they do get an observer maybe by that time our production is actually good enough to stop it. Again this is assuming Parting's style has no obs (I didn't even think to check about on obs in his game vs. Losira, but I think he didn't).
Parting builds observer after Warp Prism. So your burrow won't work for long.
Cool, I was watching a GM Protoss's stream and he did a decent sentry/immortal all-in (he's still learning the build, but it was okay with a 9:20ish moveout)
Basically Zerg cuts drones at 55 (he had bad early game macro surprisingly, so I imagine you could go up to ~60 if you don't get a 6:30 roach warren against a fast natural gas...) Mass roach/ling from 7:30 and he sorta just overran Protoss, despite okay forcefields.
Do you guys think this is viable? If you misread and he takes a third then you basically lose, but it is a great way to win against the all-in. With a better timed flank, etc, it would've been even more one-sided (it was really close in game). He has so few drones that he doesn't need a macro hatch or anything. Mass units work out okay, and if he played more economical (later roach warren, faster lair, a few more drones) it would crush the all-in for sure.
It seems interesting; I've never seen someone stop at a mere 53 drones and massing units off 3 bases.
On October 30 2012 05:32 Mavvie wrote: Cool, I was watching a GM Protoss's stream and he did a decent sentry/immortal all-in (he's still learning the build, but it was okay with a 9:20ish moveout)
Basically Zerg cuts drones at 55 (he had bad early game macro surprisingly, so I imagine you could go up to ~60 if you don't get a 6:30 roach warren against a fast natural gas...) Mass roach/ling from 7:30 and he sorta just overran Protoss, despite okay forcefields.
Do you guys think this is viable? If you misread and he takes a third then you basically lose, but it is a great way to win against the all-in. With a better timed flank, etc, it would've been even more one-sided (it was really close in game). He has so few drones that he doesn't need a macro hatch or anything. Mass units work out okay, and if he played more economical (later roach warren, faster lair, a few more drones) it would crush the all-in for sure.
It seems interesting; I've never seen someone stop at a mere 53 drones and massing units off 3 bases.
not particularly strong play by either but well, you're not in the GSL either, so
yes, this is the way to beat the all-in.
misread in what way? unless he sets out to trick you (and well, even top level pros get baited now and then with a troll build), you should be able to drone up quickly afterwards if he doesn't attack for whatever reason - not like he will have many probes anyways.
On October 29 2012 09:26 Mr. Nefarious wrote: Just want to say I've faced this build many times and I've only beaten it when they make a major mistake. I'm a top 8 Diamond Zerg with 200+ APM and yesterday I lost to a mid gold player in a custom game that did this build. Even a gold player can make the buildings at the right time and just a move and spam FF. I scouted it very early (saw the robo being built) and made nothing but units off of 73 drones. Still lost handily even with 5 spines at my third and harassing his army from the second he left his base. Keep in mind I regularly beat top diamond/low master Z/T/P in normal macro games. If this build is so incredibly easy a gold player has no problem learning it in two hours and then can take games from High Diamond/Low Masters players, it's a joke and is absolutely no different from the Terran 1/1/1 that Protoss cried about for so long and got nerfed.
I have a friend that is a mid gold Zerg I'm going to teach this build to tonight and I'll post replays of him beating myself and some high masters friends with it. If you can learn it in a few hours and can beat people 2+ leagues higher than you, it's not skill and it's certainly not starcraft.
The best answer is probably infestors. We need to find a way to have 3/4 fungles when the protoss army arrives on your 3rd. If you manage to fungle the sentries, its won. If we go lair before speed, we can get : - 6:00 double gas = 7:00 starting lair = 8:20 starting infestor pit = 9:10 starting glands = 9:40 starting first infestors = 10:30 infestors with fungle.
It seems that we can get infestors for the time the all in hit, right ?
On October 30 2012 05:32 Mavvie wrote: Cool, I was watching a GM Protoss's stream and he did a decent sentry/immortal all-in (he's still learning the build, but it was okay with a 9:20ish moveout)
Basically Zerg cuts drones at 55 (he had bad early game macro surprisingly, so I imagine you could go up to ~60 if you don't get a 6:30 roach warren against a fast natural gas...) Mass roach/ling from 7:30 and he sorta just overran Protoss, despite okay forcefields.
Do you guys think this is viable? If you misread and he takes a third then you basically lose, but it is a great way to win against the all-in. With a better timed flank, etc, it would've been even more one-sided (it was really close in game). He has so few drones that he doesn't need a macro hatch or anything. Mass units work out okay, and if he played more economical (later roach warren, faster lair, a few more drones) it would crush the all-in for sure.
It seems interesting; I've never seen someone stop at a mere 53 drones and massing units off 3 bases.
not particularly strong play by either but well, you're not in the GSL either, so
yes, this is the way to beat the all-in.
misread in what way? unless he sets out to trick you (and well, even top level pros get baited now and then with a troll build), you should be able to drone up quickly afterwards if he doesn't attack for whatever reason - not like he will have many probes anyways.
Misread as in he goes for a 4-5gate robo expand instead of 7gate all in. I guess if you see no obs and a delayed +1 those are telltale signs, but I can totally see misreads happening. I guess it's decent, but not worth cutting lair tech.
I have been reading through this thread a lot recently, to see what my peers (belial, Blade, Chaos, ect) are doing these days vs protoss, and the immortal cent. all in.
When Belial said that you can not get bane rain in time for the all in 10:30+, it struck a cord in me.
I mean, was this true? I am one of those guys that wont believe it unless I see it with my own eyes.
So off to my smurf for a weeks worth of tests in zvp.
In result, I could not get bane rain ready in time for a fast immortal cent all in. However, I could for a later one, 11:30+ This is just too coin flippy for me. so in result, you can NOT get bane drops ready for all immortal all ins when you open up 3 gasless 3 base style.
So this lead me to another question. Can one open up with any build with mid game bane drops, and still be able to have a strong enough economy for the late game?
so back to my smurf acc, for even more tests. and in result, I have 3 replays from today.
This build was basically made up on the fly for all games. It is pretty close to standard zvz opening. Enjoy
is it worth it to get borrow and tunneling claws early since they will finish before the observer arrive and that can give us an advantage over the sentries ?
As stated before, the observer comes after the warp prism, so it may delay the push by a few seconds, but nothing enough to deal with it effectively. And if you want to say to burrow the roaches under the forcefields while being shot by immortals, I think you may have to re-evaluate your though process.
On October 29 2012 05:52 Oboeman wrote: Does anyone have any experience with going tunneling claws first against this?
Or even double roach warren?
I haven't tried it, nor seen it tried. 3 immortals will still own your roaches very quickly, but does it let you get a good trade (ie kill sentries) in the first fight?
I have tried you just don't have the roach count when it matters. If you can surprise them maybe but the amount of roaches you have when he goes at 9-10 min just isn't enough especially if you didn't know the all in was coming.
Ok thanks. That was the impression I had, but didn't want to dismiss it without seeing or trying.
I really appreciate your effort BuiBui, I'll be sure to check out these replays. Just curious, what level are you? You seem pretty high level.
@ahmedaak88 it's an idea, but here's some mental math (ie. gasless 3 hatch won't work): -Lair starts at 7:20 usually -Lair takes 80 seconds. Lair finish is 8:40 -Tunneling claws takes about 2 minutes... so it's about 10:30.
I dunno, I guess it would finish in time. You could get it if you want, it would help.
Edit: Yeah I guess it hurts your roach count. I guess it isn't viable.
On October 31 2012 13:04 Mavvie wrote: I really appreciate your effort BuiBui, I'll be sure to check out these replays. Just curious, what level are you? You seem pretty high level.
@ahmedaak88 it's an idea, but here's some mental math (ie. gasless 3 hatch won't work): -Lair starts at 7:20 usually -Lair takes 80 seconds. Lair finish is 8:40 -Tunneling claws takes about 2 minutes... so it's about 10:30.
I dunno, I guess it would finish in time. You could get it if you want, it would help.
Edit: Yeah I guess it hurts your roach count. I guess it isn't viable.
NP. ^_^
I move between high and mid masters, and back again. Last season, my main and my Smurf, were both around 1500 masters, with a lot of messing around and scotch. I was also at MLG Raleigh, got knocked by gosu stx in the winners bracket
The exact build I used today in zvp I never done before today. So I am sure I can hammer out a cleaner mid game opening.
Edit:
I will also add that this opening was ALOT of fun, and will continue to craft the build.
I actually just played it on ladder, cut drones at 60 and massed roach/ling and actually roflstomped his army with a triple pronged flank (defended it on cloud!!!) Since Protoss is designed the way it is, it took me 30 more minutes to actually kill him (I fucked up a blord/infestor push and lost all my broods, he lost all his stalkers, I had a bank and he didn't so I won). Sort of irrelevant, but after I clean up his army he just says "infestors are a fucking joke" and goes on to tell me about how my race is broken, etc etc. I find it SO dumb that Protoss players will do a 2 base all-in, and complain when it gets defended with ease but he's still in the game that my race is "broken", "imbalanced", etc.
I'm not sure what the best followup is. Roach/ling max? Aggressive ling/infestor into 16:00 broods? Infestor/spine turtle into 15:00 broods? Mutas?
I really don't like it It's a 2 base lair opener....but you don't research drops when lair finishes, you wait a good while. You don't take your third until like 10:00, only retarded Protoss players would both not scout for your third and attack you when you're on two bases. The best part is that banes/drops aren't ready for the standard PartinG timing of 10:15; drops + banes finish close to 11:00. Protoss's macro is TERRIBLE, his army is so small and he doesn't attack you until after 11:00.
I mean I guess it worked, but no one's doubting the effectiveness of banerain against immortal/sentry. The problem is the timing. You either stay on 2 bases and die to standard macro, or take a fast third and can't get drops out in time.
With a 5:00 gas -> lair first you can get drops in time, so that's something worth looking into IMO. Doesn't cut as many drones as a 4:30 gas, but still gets them up in time. You can get super fast mutas too (10:00ish).
On November 01 2012 08:08 Mavvie wrote: BuiBui, I'm just watching the first replay.
I actually just played it on ladder, cut drones at 60 and massed roach/ling and actually roflstomped his army with a triple pronged flank (defended it on cloud!!!) Since Protoss is designed the way it is, it took me 30 more minutes to actually kill him (I fucked up a blord/infestor push and lost all my broods, he lost all his stalkers, I had a bank and he didn't so I won). Sort of irrelevant, but after I clean up his army he just says "infestors are a fucking joke" and goes on to tell me about how my race is broken, etc etc. I find it SO dumb that Protoss players will do a 2 base all-in, and complain when it gets defended with ease but he's still in the game that my race is "broken", "imbalanced", etc.
I'm not sure what the best followup is. Roach/ling max? Aggressive ling/infestor into 16:00 broods? Infestor/spine turtle into 15:00 broods? Mutas?
Since he doesn't have an army, is low on probes, and has no 3rd, just keep denying his 3rd with roach/ling/festor (if you put up your infestation pit before the push). If he stays on 2base you can tech to broods, but you can probably break him with just the roach/ling/festor comp... just spam IT's over his wall while using the roach/ling to break his wall.
On November 01 2012 08:11 Mavvie wrote: Ok finished watching the replay.
I really don't like it It's a 2 base lair opener....but you don't research drops when lair finishes, you wait a good while. You don't take your third until like 10:00, only retarded Protoss players would both not scout for your third and attack you when you're on two bases. The best part is that banes/drops aren't ready for the standard PartinG timing of 10:15; drops + banes finish close to 11:00. Protoss's macro is TERRIBLE, his army is so small and he doesn't attack you until after 11:00.
I mean I guess it worked, but no one's doubting the effectiveness of banerain against immortal/sentry. The problem is the timing. You either stay on 2 bases and die to standard macro, or take a fast third and can't get drops out in time.
With a 5:00 gas -> lair first you can get drops in time, so that's something worth looking into IMO. Doesn't cut as many drones as a 4:30 gas, but still gets them up in time. You can get super fast mutas too (10:00ish).
That game was a mess, I agree. Like I said before I think the build can be made better. since it was on the fly.
Also. in the OTHER two replays, the protoss does not attack me off two base. Which I agree, a protoss that see's only two bases should just take a third and defend
This is vs high masters with a 9:00 moveout on Ohana. I don't even flank. The idea behind this build is to play standard, but at lair completion, instead of spending 100/100 for roach speed, go 100/100 for hydra den. Then play normal; don't build any hydras, don't get range. Just get infestation pit/upgrades/whatever you want. If he pushes out, build pure hydra/ling.
Basically the idea is to throw down a "safety" hydra den, since hydras are a lot better vs this comp than pure roach/ling. In general hydras are good vs 2-base pushes overall. I'm not sure why roach speed is that important, at least right after lair, unless you want to be aggressive. It is important, however, if you want to use it to defend vs immo/sentry, but I think hydras are just better than roaches in this situation.
The same concepts still apply; it's best to have a flank from at least 1 direction and great creep spread.
About defending at high level. SortOf just defend Squirtles sentry-immortal at ESWC, games was not casted, but via match history it was cleary that strategy (like against Recco yesterday). Looks like SortOf defend it in straight fight with roach-ling
On November 03 2012 18:30 pprrii wrote: About defending at high level. SortOf just defend Squirtles sentry-immortal at ESWC, games was not casted, but via match history it was cleary that strategy (like against Recco yesterday). Looks like SortOf defend it in straight fight with roach-ling
MVPSniper handles the immortal sentry all in excellently, you should watch his games in the GSTL most recently in the SlayerS vs MVP match.
On November 03 2012 18:30 pprrii wrote: About defending at high level. SortOf just defend Squirtles sentry-immortal at ESWC, games was not casted, but via match history it was cleary that strategy (like against Recco yesterday). Looks like SortOf defend it in straight fight with roach-ling
MVPSniper handles the immortal sentry all in excellently, you should watch his games in the GSTL most recently in the SlayerS vs MVP match.
For that specific game vs Arthur, the all-in came much later than PartinG's version. Sniper was already on full 3-base saturation due to taking his third at 3:40.
On November 03 2012 18:30 pprrii wrote: About defending at high level. SortOf just defend Squirtles sentry-immortal at ESWC, games was not casted, but via match history it was cleary that strategy (like against Recco yesterday). Looks like SortOf defend it in straight fight with roach-ling
MVPSniper handles the immortal sentry all in excellently, you should watch his games in the GSTL most recently in the SlayerS vs MVP match.
For that specific game vs Arthur, the all-in came much later than PartinG's version. Sniper was already on full 3-base saturation due to taking his third at 3:40.
Arthur also had poor execution on a map with tons of wide open space at the 3rd.
Stephano did hold the all in from Pandatank nicely.
From 8 min, massing tons of units (onlt 53 drones) to kill pandatank as he comes out. But pandatank doesnt go out at 9 but at 10/11 min. Stephano builds spines in his 3rd, has an army there and counter attacks with a handful of roaches and zerglings to the natural. He destroys it but cannot go in the main. Pandatank needs some times before being able to destroy the 3rd. Stephano trades army during the fight on the 3rd, and builds 6 spines in his natural. Pandatank comes to attack the natural of steph, defended with 6 spines. He has 3 immortals, the Warp prism, and a gateway army. But stephano holds, because pandatank cant come under the spines. 2 base vs 1 base, once stephano has enough roaches, he destroys pandatank. GG !
On November 03 2012 20:18 pprrii wrote: It was easy hold since so late move out And yeah, Stephano do it it right, not 60+ drones, around 55 is good as i say in this thread already
Early move out is auto loose since you cant defend a swarm of lings with sentries/immo only. Or you loose 10 forcefields in the trade.
I love this thread. Sentry/immortal all-in is hard to hold but not because of anything Protoss does!
Its hard to hold because of what Zerg does: i.e. gasless 3 base roach/ling style. Stop doing that boring stuff and you will find easy ways to kill this all-in (and these don't imply zerg all-ins of their own). Hint: who said all zergs need 3 bases and defend?
The problem with any other style is it dies to standard macro play from Protoss. That's why we can't open 2 base muta or anything. In fact, 2 base muta hits AFTER blink is done on a fast twilight council.
What do you suggest Zergs do instead? I kind of like the 4:30 gas fast lair style, but that does cut into your drone count.
@Everyone: Soo defended Rain's sentry/immo by cutting drones at 62 and massing roach/ling. It was super effective! Although Rain did engage in the only place on the map that he could get 270 degree surrounded....lol.
On November 05 2012 03:05 Mavvie wrote: The problem with any other style is it dies to standard macro play from Protoss. That's why we can't open 2 base muta or anything. In fact, 2 base muta hits AFTER blink is done on a fast twilight council.
What do you suggest Zergs do instead? I kind of like the 4:30 gas fast lair style, but that does cut into your drone count.
@Everyone: Soo defended Rain's sentry/immo by cutting drones at 62 and massing roach/ling. It was super effective! Although Rain did engage in the only place on the map that he could get 270 degree surrounded....lol.
Regarding the first part of this. This is just not true. Any two base opener can work if you can read the protoss with good scouting, and know when to drone/expand or make units.
The three base style may be better vs the current meta game, (FFE) But it is much worse vs older meta games, 2 gates, 4 gates, 3 gate expands, ect.
I know you were NOT a fan of the bane ling drop games. But With other two base openers I have beaten Low Gm's and many High masters. Many of my peers/pro's have done so too.
Edit. Furthermore, I believe that zvp/pvz will develope further, with protoss doing more then 1 kind of opener 95% of the time. I think this will change the zerg meta game into something like zvt.
In zvt, terrans are doing many different openers, This forces many zergs to open 2 base style ---> expand, Like Dimaga and Scarlette.
I mained as Zerg for a long time, and could almost never beat Immortal/Sentry. I probably had like a 90% loss percentage against it. I would get a game vs. P on Antiga and say to myself, "He's gonna fuckin' Immortal/Sentry," then I would scout it... then subsequently lose. Then I switched to Protoss and now have a 90% win percentage with it. The only Zerg who has beaten me when I did Immortal/Sentry did something pretty cool.
On Cloud Kingdom he massed up Roach/Ling (cutting drones at like 50-55) and then made a GIANT concave at the bottom of the ramp out of my nat, so when I went to go down, he killed a bunch of my units. Even if I went around to the third he could have held a similar concave. Was pretty smart. He told me that as soon as he thinks it's Immortal/Sentry he does this, which means that if it turns out it's just a 4 gate + robo into 3rd base he has to allin, which is fine.
If you're having success vs. Sentry/Immortal, what upgrade are you getting for your units? Typically I'd get ranged attack asap because of the number of roaches I build but am having more trouble holding as I've moved into higher masters.
Should it be carapace or melee attack or is ranged attack the proper way to handle it?
On November 06 2012 02:03 ShamW0W wrote: If you're having success vs. Sentry/Immortal, what upgrade are you getting for your units? Typically I'd get ranged attack asap because of the number of roaches I build but am having more trouble holding as I've moved into higher masters.
Should it be carapace or melee attack or is ranged attack the proper way to handle it?
I prefer the +1 carapace because it helps glings to be a damage buffer for roaches/hydras. But i dont know if it's so good, since my win rate against immo sentry all in is at 20% ... : )
On November 06 2012 02:03 ShamW0W wrote: If you're having success vs. Sentry/Immortal, what upgrade are you getting for your units? Typically I'd get ranged attack asap because of the number of roaches I build but am having more trouble holding as I've moved into higher masters.
Should it be carapace or melee attack or is ranged attack the proper way to handle it?
Go for the +1 range attack everytime because at that point you are not sure what the toss is doing, +1 range attack is better all around, and then go for +1 carapace cause if you are able to defend the first wave of the all in, there is a second wave that can come with a slightly different composition : lots of zealots/sentries/immortals, but the toss can't have +2 attack at that point so your lings can deal with zealots more easely.
FWIW, I've spent some time playing against quite a few Sentry/Immortal all-ins and have had more success with +1 melee as my first upgrade.
I've been getting out speedlings earlier than usual to make sure the P can't have a forward position set up, go back to droning some, then if it's Sentry/Immortal I harass the army all the way across the map trying to bait as many FF's as humanly possible before flanking the army with Roach/Ling.
If it turns out they're taking a 3rd I take gasses 5/6, drop an infestation pit, and grab a 4th. Working out fairly well this week at least.
On November 10 2012 01:12 Xtreme94 wrote: Have anyone try hydra-ling? I think it counter immortal sentry all in quite hard...
1) Skipping roaches opens up a ton of other problems in early game PvZ. 2) Hydras are terrible if the Protoss doesn't commit. If P sees hydras he can just back out, tech up to colossus and take a third. Hydras are really bad offensively because of their slow speed off creep, which really limits their use on modern maps with long rush distances.
I mean for what it's worth, 2base infestor and 2base muta also destroy this all-in. However, none sane would ever immortal all-in vs a 2base Zerg...same thing with going hydras, and doing exclusively those two builds opens up a ton of other problems for Z.
Also, what the poster above me said is correct. Modern immortal all-ins really focus on speed so they tend to just move out with the sentries+immortals, which is a really vulnerable moment for the P. If the Zerg engages and delays in the middle of the map he has more time to increase his roach count and set up counters to further delay the attack, or flanks to engage it better.
Does anyone have replays/VODs of toss retreating vs hydra if they see it and teching to colossi? I have a hard time believing this is viable if Zerg either doesn't let toss retreat (flanks with lings), goes on the offense to at least prevent a 3rd, or just transitions properly.
I remember older games where Leenock goes hydra to basically FORCE colossi and then transitions out to something like roach/corruptor and wins pretty easily. It seems that most games where I see Z go hydra and lose, they don't transition out properly or they overbuild.
Does anyone have replays/VODs of toss retreating vs hydra if they see it and teching to colossi? I have a hard time believing this is viable if Zerg either doesn't let toss retreat (flanks with lings), goes on the offense to at least prevent a 3rd, or just transitions properly.
I remember older games where Leenock goes hydra to basically FORCE colossi and then transitions out to something like roach/corruptor and wins pretty easily. It seems that most games where I see Z go hydra and lose, they don't transition out properly or they overbuild.
I believe Zenio used to do safety hdyra den type stuff a while ago but he's stopped; there might be something in his TL replay packs.
In both games the creep spread was mediocre, in the second hydras were not on the field in time to do anything.
The first game is a pretty decent example though; however Sen make a couple of mistakes that I felt cost him, one is he took 6 gas and overcommited to hydra, slightly overdroned (he lost these drones in the first engagement), and didn't really attempt to flank (along with poor creep spread). Hydras without shielding are pretty bad. Also when someone is bearing down on you and has the advantage I feel like range comes too late to help; the 150/150 is probably better spent on units, despite what the casters said. Vs someone like creator I would think flanking and creep spread are of primary importance.
Currently, one of the easiest answer i've found is : - Rushing to infestors. - Make a tons of ling once you know he goes for Immo sentry all in. Lings lings only lings. Inject. Lings. - He cant go out until he as a valid ball to fight over 9000 zerglings - But when he goes out it's too late : you have 4-6 infestors.
An immortal sentry all-in should hit before infestors can be out, assuming a standard lair timng and starting the infestation pit at 9 minutes the instant the lair finishes.
Skipping roaches also opens up more problems for Zerg, specifically you can't defend any kind of +1 zealot pressure either before going robo or with a warp prism cost effectively. I've seen San outright kill a Zerg's third with just a warp prism, 2 sentires and 4gates woth of zealots because the Zerg was being greedy and trying to outright skip roaches vs a robo openig.
It can work well vs just a straight up immortal all-in (especially if it's fairly delayed), but i don't think it's a solid long-term solution to it.
^ He's saying he buys time with massing lings. But you are right, zerg shouldn't have mass lings in time even. Maybe if you start pumping lings before 8:00, but that critically hurts your drone count imo.
Skipping roaches also opens up more problems for Zerg, specifically you can't defend any kind of +1 zealot pressure either before going robo or with a warp prism cost effectively. I've seen San outright kill a Zerg's third with just a warp prism, 2 sentires and 4gates woth of zealots because the Zerg was being greedy and trying to outright skip roaches vs a robo openig
You can hold such pressure with lots and lots of speedlings. Obviously roaches are stronger, but if you've been pumping a ton of speedlings from 8:00, you can hold such pressure. Spines and a roach warren can help.
This is just speaking from my personal experience when I go fast muta vs robo openers, and they do a warp prism attack instead of immortal/sentry all-in or robo expand. That's why when I go quick mutas, I pump lings from 8:30+ no matter what it seems like Toss is doing with his robo opener.
I don't know the answer to immortal/sentry but quick muta has worked well for me on ladder. Not as quick as nestea but I'll try to reactively get quicker gases, spire, and cut out roaches and evo chamber if i see robo.
You can get tech out in time, like infestors, if your willing to sacrifice your third and/or make lots of spines. But I just don't see massing spines or losing your third worthwhile just to get hydras or infestors out, but i do think its worthwhile with mutas.
I don't play Zerg, but if I did, I'd be trying all kinds of different options to make hydras defend this push. It seems like the problem is that you can't actually hit anything because you're constantly forcefielded out of range. Hydras seem like they should be a solution, but I know there are problems with the timing window and the suckiness of the hydra's stats. Still, I have a hunch that you could make it work if you ironed out a gameplan really well.
On November 11 2012 11:33 kcdc wrote: I don't play Zerg, but if I did, I'd be trying all kinds of different options to make hydras defend this push. It seems like the problem is that you can't actually hit anything because you're constantly forcefielded out of range. Hydras seem like they should be a solution, but I know there are problems with the timing window and the suckiness of the hydra's stats. Still, I have a hunch that you could make it work if you ironed out a gameplan really well.
Yea, but even if that did work, it would raise the problem of a mid-game plan versus a Protoss who fakes an all-in or who retreats. For example, Rain took two games off of DRG in the OSL finals just by faking the immortal all-in. Funnily enough, this forces the Zerg to make Roaches, which opens up some powerful 3-base immortal/stalker/sentry timings.
I honestly suspect Blizzard will buff the Hydralisk because of this all-in. After all, they buffed an underused unit(the Immortal) when Protoss were having problems defending the 1-1-1 from Terran, which shares so many characteristics with this push in PvZ.
On November 11 2012 11:33 kcdc wrote: I don't play Zerg, but if I did, I'd be trying all kinds of different options to make hydras defend this push. It seems like the problem is that you can't actually hit anything because you're constantly forcefielded out of range. Hydras seem like they should be a solution, but I know there are problems with the timing window and the suckiness of the hydra's stats. Still, I have a hunch that you could make it work if you ironed out a gameplan really well.
Yea, but even if that did work, it would raise the problem of a mid-game plan versus a Protoss who fakes an all-in or who retreats. For example, Rain took two games off of DRG in the OSL finals just by faking the immortal all-in. Funnily enough, this forces the Zerg to make Roaches, which opens up some powerful 3-base immortal/stalker/sentry timings.
I honestly suspect Blizzard will buff the Hydralisk because of this all-in. After all, they buffed an underused unit(the Immortal) when Protoss were having problems defending the 1-1-1 from Terran, which shares so many characteristics with this push in PvZ.
Well honestly what I've been doing is taking one gas @5:00, starting quick lair with that @54/54 and then taking 3 other gasses when the lair is 30-40 percent done. I throw down a roach warren and one evo @7:30 unless you scout early pressure.
When the lair pops I throw down a hydra-den and then a spire, one after the other. I am still working on figuring out the timings on this and you have to be very, VERY top-notch on your injects if you want to get all the standard benchmarks. I am now consistently able to get around 76 supply at 8 with a macro hatch, though I have to cut the creep queen (going to see where I can fit that in).
What I have been doing is - if the P does an allin then I just pump out around 9 hydras and then mass lings, and then grab my gasses @ my third anyhow and make mutas along with the extra hydras (I dunno sometimes I will make more hydras but I feel like around 9-10 is about how many I feel comfortable with). I make sure to poop creep @his third as soon as the lair pops so that if he does just pull back and expand I can see it, take a 4th and transition into mass muta/ling/bane w/ a maxed timing @12/13.
Just something like that has been working well for me. I love playing a Sauron-zerg style much more than the current herpa-derpa bullshit.
I am making more adjustments and am ironing out the build in YABOT, probably work on it more today...
@Belial I just tried a fast muta opener (similar to Nestea's, but adapted because I forgot 4:30 gas) that gets a 7:50 spire if I don't delay it. http://www.twitch.tv/mavvie/b/339200763 1:18:00 is when the game starts, it's a ladder game and I just ultimately steamroll his army; I even defended my fourth. I skip roach warrens and evos, using my fast lair to scout his sentry count (and I even saw his robo) to know that I was safe.
I opened 11 overpool because I took so much damage from pylon blocks in the previous games
FPVODs are cool, much more so than replays. Anyways, here's the replay in case you don't wanna watch my FPVOD: http://drop.sc/274284
Despite being horridly out of position and forgetting ling speed (foreverbronze I know), I still defend. Mutas are great because they can't be forcefielded, so even if they suck you at least get some damage in. Also mutas are unaffected by immortals, so it's basically a delayed 7gate with sentries. Sounds like an easy defense, right?
I feel like at least one evo chamber is a good idea; there's plenty of time for +1/(+1). I dunno, I think fast mutas are a great idea ZvP. Maybe I only think this because it's the only game I won today, whatever.
Edit: If the sentry/immortal is like the 1/1/1, then Nestea's fast mutalisk build is like HerO/MC's (not sure) fast phoenix opener :D
As a mid-master Zerg on EU I exclusively open Spire for every ZvP where he has gas at his natural. All my minerals get dumped exclusively into drones and lings. In some cases I'll opt to get two spines at both of my bases My lair generally finish up at around ~7:00 and I have mutas popping out around 9.00. Then all you have to do is engage and have the lings tank while your mutas take down the sentries.
More often than not however, I do a hatch block onto my opponents natural. This means I can get away with teching on two bases longer than I normally would, only to double expand when my mutalisks start harassing. It is extremely rare that I meet any protoss that find a way to stabilise before the muta pack is too large for stalkers to deal with, resulting in easy GG's. If it looks like he stabilises, its just a matter of knowing when to techswitch. Assuming you do it right, you can be maxed on roaches/infestors at 16 min with a greater spire on the way and 5-6 bases to support it. I don't know if its just me, but it feels like that IF you manage to get down a hatch block you're already countering FFE, regardless of what response the Protoss might do.
EDIT: If the opponent goes for a 7gate blink-allin holding can be somewhat tricky. If you manage to sniff it out in time and can get +1 armor on the lings, you'll have a much easier time defending. The rest is just getting out a critically large muta flock so his blink-micro doesn't keep every single stalker alive while all your lings die. Overwhelm his first warpin and you're golden, else you'll probably die.
On November 11 2012 13:06 Mavvie wrote: @Belial I just tried a fast muta opener (similar to Nestea's, but adapted because I forgot 4:30 gas) that gets a 7:50 spire if I don't delay it. http://www.twitch.tv/mavvie/b/339200763 1:18:00 is when the game starts, it's a ladder game and I just ultimately steamroll his army; I even defended my fourth. I skip roach warrens and evos, using my fast lair to scout his sentry count (and I even saw his robo) to know that I was safe.
I opened 11 overpool because I took so much damage from pylon blocks in the previous games
FPVODs are cool, much more so than replays. Anyways, here's the replay in case you don't wanna watch my FPVOD: http://drop.sc/274284
Despite being horridly out of position and forgetting ling speed (foreverbronze I know), I still defend. Mutas are great because they can't be forcefielded, so even if they suck you at least get some damage in. Also mutas are unaffected by immortals, so it's basically a delayed 7gate with sentries. Sounds like an easy defense, right?
I feel like at least one evo chamber is a good idea; there's plenty of time for +1/(+1). I dunno, I think fast mutas are a great idea ZvP. Maybe I only think this because it's the only game I won today, whatever.
Edit: If the sentry/immortal is like the 1/1/1, then Nestea's fast mutalisk build is like HerO/MC's (not sure) fast phoenix opener :D
I watched that VOD. I'm starting to understand the real power of mutas, which is that they are able to snipe all the sentries effectively...that really is their greatest use, I think you would only need around 16 to accomplish this before transition.
What i've been doing is standard gas timings (double gas at 6.00, 3rd and 4rth following) with a roach warren slightly earlier, like 6.45. I research speed with first 100 gas, dump all my gas into roaches once roach warren finish, then nothing but zerglings. Next 100 gas go to lair, next 150 to carapace (better for late game purposes than missile)
This means i'll drone cut around 54, which I think is better than 60. The plan is as follows: I've been noticing protosses tend to not make observers if they go for immortal all in. I'll wait outside the protoss base but far enough so that he cant see my army composition. Once he moves out at around 9.30 i'll launch a suicide attack on his army.
The goal is to kill every sentry. The roaches are there so that the protoss is in a dillema: either ff the lings away, but then roaches can shoot from behind forcefield, either ff the roaches away, but then the lings can kill sentries. He shouldnt have enough force field so early to do both if u catch him in an open area (remember his sentries should not have build a lot of energy). And most of the time you can catch the toss in an open area because most protosses feel safe at the time they move out of their base. This could be because most Z tends to make lair before speed and therefore they dont have lingspeed at that point, + they go roach heavy and Z dont want to engage with a big slowroach army.
Most of the time the toss army will be weak enough after this first attack that the toss will want to go back home. Most protosses will then make zealots because they need gas for new sentries and because they saw a lot of lings. That's why i follow this first attack with mainly roaches which will have speed by the time the second protoss attack hits. Bait a couple FF, engage from 2 directions and he will ran out of FF.
A word or two about the early drone cut: this drone cut lets u have roaches in time for the early zealot +1 shenanigans as well as having speed to shut down a variety of all ins like blink +2 etc. If the toss did a robo and a bunch of immortals but choose to take a 3rd, you' should have enough units to delay his third enough to drone back so that you get back in a worker advantage.
My winrate has substantially increase vs immortal all in since i did those adjustements. I tend to win toss with higher mmr than me most of the time.
Edit : now that I look back at those replays you could say my opponents screwed big time by moving like they did. But I think that under GM mmr, most protosses will do so because most Z lets them by having slowroaches only army at the time Toss moves out. As I said, Toss tends to not have observers because they want to maximize immortal count and if they send a zealot to scout, you can kill it with a bunch of slowroaches, hiding your lings.
On November 11 2012 19:33 Teoita wrote: That's like saying that the counter to 11/11 rax is 10pool into 1base roach.
If your point is that this build needs to deviate very early to counter the immortal all in that Z cant have scouted by the time he deviates, you are right. But honestly since 90% of my zvp includes immortal all ins, i'll do so mindlessly
I like the Muta Idea, but I don't have the multitasking to make muta work correctly in a macro game (either my muta are useless/dead or my macro goes awry).
I was thinking, we have a wonderful unit that has a long range, shoots up and down, and is quite sturdy. No, Hydras, Queens ! Could we defend the all in with ~7/8 queens (ie. the normal number + 1per hatch as soon as scouted) helping with the transfuse.
The complement would be putting the gaz in Hydras (short term solution) or Infest (long term). This is quite mineral intensive so I guess Hydras would make more sense, and they also have range.
The defense would then by handled by a few spines, 7/8 queen and ~10 hydras (and counting). With the range of all these units, either the protoss army will have little units hitting through forcefields, or many will be in range of the good dps of hydra/spines and the ok dps of queens.
Again, you would very likely have to commit to a build like that before you know it's an immortal all-in. What happens if he immortal expands? Do you just sit there with a bunch of useless hydras and later infestor tech, later hive, later infestor energy and 10 of the worst offensive unit in the game, while protoss turtles on 3bases with colossus tech? Do you try to push with hydras on modern big maps? Neither is going to work consistently.
That said yeah, creep spread is key to stopping this so i guess it would be interesting for Z to shift their openings a bit, maybe going up to 5 ish queens and keeping 2 to spread creep..not to fight. Modern openings don't really emphasize creep in zvp as much as they do in zvt and that's a pretty big fault.
The big problem isn't JUST holding off the immortal all-in, it's doing so while also accounting for every other possibility Protoss has, at least in some way (and having some freedom to do so), before having to commit to anything drastic like 2base play or hydras.
On November 15 2012 00:06 Teoita wrote: Again, you would very likely have to commit to a build like that before you know it's an immortal all-in. What happens if he immortal expands? Do you just sit there with a bunch of useless hydras and later infestor tech, later hive, later infestor energy and 10 of the worst offensive unit in the game, while protoss turtles on 3bases with colossus tech? Do you try to push with hydras on modern big maps? Neither is going to work consistently.
That said yeah, creep spread is key to stopping this so i guess it would be interesting for Z to shift their openings a bit, maybe going up to 5 ish queens and keeping 2 to spread creep..not to fight. Modern openings don't really emphasize creep in zvp as much as they do in zvt and that's a pretty big fault.
The big problem isn't JUST holding off the immortal all-in, it's doing so while also accounting for every other possibility Protoss has, at least in some way (and having some freedom to do so), before having to commit to anything drastic like 2base play or hydras.
Your best bet is scouting and doing a build that covers most of the possibilites your opponent has. I happen to like ling-muta OR ling-infestor-ultra. Which one of them I choose depends on whether I see an expand or not. If he expands, I macro up a little and go ultras and hold their push with ling infestor. If he has not expanded, mostly lings and then mutas tends to finish off things pretty well. Also, it's key to note that some protosses push with only 2 immortals at around 7:45-8:00... So you've got to activley scout for their exit, because if you're stuck with the 10:00 mark on your head, you will get caught with your pants down.
In a Day[9] video a while back, he showed TLO doing something really cool--basically, as the Protoss moved out with the all-in, TLO would mass spine at his main ramp. Then he nydus-wormed his entire army to attack the Protoss, either in the main or at the front.
You sac your third and natural to kill his main and natural. Bring your army back through the Nydus Worm if he decides to attack up the ramp. At the end of the fight, you should have one mining base to the other guy's zero.
I haven't seen anyone other than TLO try this yet, but it seems to me like there's some potential there.
On November 15 2012 02:21 Zozma wrote: In a Day[9] video a while back, he showed TLO doing something really cool--basically, as the Protoss moved out with the all-in, TLO would mass spine at his main ramp. Then he nydus-wormed his entire army to attack the Protoss, either in the main or at the front.
You sac your third and natural to kill his main and natural. Bring your army back through the Nydus Worm if he decides to attack up the ramp. At the end of the fight, you should have one mining base to the other guy's zero.
I haven't seen anyone other than TLO try this yet, but it seems to me like there's some potential there.
The problem is that if you cant destroy the main because the protoss doesnt suck, you are 1 base vs 1 base. Pretty much fucked.
I just found a replay where life hold an immo sentry all in with ling roaches. I dont know how he manages to do so... I think Brown failed his forcefields... I'm a right?
Well he loose this game due to a sentry drop after the immo all in. But thats another problem..
I am no longer active on EU the server but a few weeks ago, when playing for my team I designed a macro oriented counter to the imo-sentry all-in.
We know that without tech (mutas, hydras or infester) it's very hard to fight the toss army head-on. But getting the tech quickly enough to defend this very early push require a big cut on economy (late third), which can be easily scouted and exploited by the Toss.
I used to do a roach/ling/hydra defense on 3 bases using standard stephano gas and tech timing but I only defended barely and I was in a bad position if the Toss just took a safe third defended by sentry/imo once he forced enough hydras and followed by a pre-hive colossus push. As soon as colossus hit the battleground, supply and resource tied in hydras become a huge liability.
Counter attacking seem to be the solution because the Toss usually just wall off and doesn't keep any defending army to make the strongest push possible. But with usual timings only a small roach/ling army can be at the Toss nat when the WonWonWon train as left the station. To get a really theatening roach/ling army at Toss door around 9min, you have to delay either eco (less saturation) or tech (later roach speed and infestors).
Considering all this I got my idea of a reactive eco ling-baneling counter bust. This a reactive build and it should be able to defend this all-in but also put the zerg player in a good position for a standard macro game.
The first phase of the build focus on maximizing the mineral input and drone production during the first 7min of the game. We want to get a 3 bases fully mineral saturated (48 drones) ASAP. Delaying gas until 6:30 and not building any creep tumor should allow you to reach full min saturation around 7:10 and stop producing drone at 7:30. 7:30 is the turning point when you should have identified the build 100%, but against quick gateway pressure, you have to adapt earlier (if no gas at nat and no third building at 6:45, emergency roach warren and 2 spine at the third plus a few zerglings should keep you safe).
When the standard 7min overlord sac has seen many sentry and a robo, the build is clearly identified. So the reaction is as follow : ling speed with the first 100 gas from 3 gas at 6:30 (ling speed will be ready around 9:10), and then baneling nest (begin ~7:30, finish ~8:30) and then lair. Regarding mineral allocation, when you reach 57 drones (3*16+3*3) you should build a macro hatch, a fourth extractor, 5 more drones and a fourth queen. Any mineral left go to zerglings (zerglings production begins around 7:30 to get 2 injects rounds-60lings at the Toss door at 9min).
We can't defend the third, but with a quick mineral saturation it will pay for itself. If the all-in is certain, you should begin spining up the nat at 8:30. As you plan to sac the third, just morph 8 drones from the third to the nat. The 8 drones left will be transfered just before his army hit your third to make 4 additionnals spines (put the other on min). With the flood of 3 injected hatch building lings and 12 spines, you should have no problem defending your nat. You also have to be careful of your building placement : the macro hatch is safer in the the main, and don't build any extractor in the third before taking the first 4.
As soons as the baneling nest finish (8:30), you should have around 300 gas to build 12banes in a hidden position close to the Toss nat. This means that your counter attack will hit at 9:00, when the WonWonWon train is cruising in the midle of the map (according to Remarks guide). 10 banes is enough to destroy any wall (forge is 10 IIRC) so even if he left a single sentry at home you should make short work of the nat with zerglings amazing dps output, probes will fall to any baneling left.
Now your zerglings could get scouted and no doubt that he has enough sentry to defend if he decide not to push. In this situation we have a fall-back plan. At 9:10, your lair should finish and you should have just enough gas to build a spire. The threat of the counter attack and the army dance should buy enough time to have mutas before he can safely attack you or get his third. And from there the game is simple. You just have to threaten a ling/bane/muta counter attack while growing your econ advantage and teching. Given that you have 10+ spines already, any base race scenario is an autowin.
So here is the build order : Standard 3 hatch opening, don't build a third queen until the third hatch is built because you will need the extra min to spend it on the extra larvae given by not building a creep tumor, spend queen energy only on injects. 6:30 3 gas 7:00 send ov to scout and assert the WonWonWon build 7:20 ling speed, add an extractor 7:30 baneling nest, first round of lings stop drone production at 60 drones, add macro hatch, 4th queen 7:50 build lair in your main 8:00 2nd round of lings 8:30 build as many banes as you can in a hidden location don't be afraid to cancel if he chase your army, time is on your side. Spine up your nat, continue ling production if he is agressive. 9:00 destroy his naked nat if he pushed, ling speed will finish shortly 9:10 build a spire if he stayed defensive
Pros : - fully reactive build, doesn't sacrifice eco, slighly later tech but the first round of zerglings can delay Toss third for a long time to compensate. - no need to invest heavily in the defense before 8min (the 2nd round of lings). And if he doesn't look agressive, you don't have to morph banes. - a near bo win if he push and doesn't stop the counter attack, wich will often be the case on ladder given the surprise effect - no big tell until zergling production for the protoss to identify the BO - bo still very strong against stargate play (good eco, ling and banes to deny the third)
Cons : - weaker than standard build to +1 gateway pressure or just zealot/stalker harass (you have to be very active with the initial 4 lings to scout for that and be prepared in time) - if you fail to scout you can be caught with your pants down at a wrong timing (DT pressure, gateway all-in, zeal/archon all-in ...)
TLDR: Standard 3base late gas, 2 round of lings with speed and bane nest to treaten a timed ling/bane counter attack at 9 min, spine up the nat and sac the third if needed, buy some time for spire tech to punish heavy sentry and late third.
I don't have any valuable replay given that I don't play much ATM. But I think that given the current situation, any Zerg strugeling with the WonWonWon build should give this a try.
Yeah, ling/baneling openings are interesting and they would definitely do well vs immortal all-ins...i remember seeing a Z (most likely Dimaga) completely dismantle the all-in with it.
The downside of course is that the midgame isn't as refined as it is with roach/ling/infestor builds, but if would be really cool if someone ironed out the timings for that kind of playstyle, PvZ atm is pretty rigid.
I don't know if this has been said before but has anyone tried cutting drones earlier making a round of lings at around like 40 drones making drones then making roaches and lings? It seems everyone has a mindset of make 60 drones then make units. Why not make units earlier then make drones then make units? Sorry if this has been suggested before.
On November 16 2012 02:40 Abusion wrote: I don't know if this has been said before but has anyone tried cutting drones earlier making a round of lings at around like 40 drones making drones then making roaches and lings? It seems everyone has a mindset of make 60 drones then make units. Why not make units earlier then make drones then make units? Sorry if this has been suggested before.
On November 16 2012 02:40 Abusion wrote: I don't know if this has been said before but has anyone tried cutting drones earlier making a round of lings at around like 40 drones making drones then making roaches and lings? It seems everyone has a mindset of make 60 drones then make units. Why not make units earlier then make drones then make units? Sorry if this has been suggested before.
DRG has been delaying his lair in favour of early roaches against protoss. he still makes ~60 drones, but gets speed and 8-10 roaches before lair, and attacks the protoss. It hits exactly as the protoss would want to be moving out for this push.
But it seems to set him way behind when the protoss doesn't move out at 9:00.
I don't think that making lings at 40 drones would accomplish anything except lose money.
That push is really strong vs greedy macro builds like stargate into robo while only making phoenix, because he can put a ton of pressure on, delay the third and reduce the sentry energy. He even took a game off MC in the OSL. Obviously it's also really good vs any gateway timing, as he starts making units blindly when a Zerg should defend a gateway timing. The combination of the two makes it a great metagame move against MC's builds.
I think against anything else, timings and macro builds, including an immortal all-in, it's fairly bad as he has far less drones (and therefore production) to hold off the attack, and he delays his tech a lot. In their GSL match, Creator was able to even get a 4th and max out before his pre hive push because of how delayed everything from DRG was.
Unless the P gets caught horribly out of position (which can happen but all it takes is leading with a zealot or probe to make sure you are safe to move out), any delayed/slower all-in like immortal/sentry or even blink stalkers will be even stronger because the Zerg's drone count isn't optimal.
On November 16 2012 03:31 Teoita wrote: That push is really strong vs greedy macro builds like stargate into robo while only making phoenix, because he can put a ton of pressure on, delay the third and reduce the sentry energy. He even took a game off MC in the OSL. Obviously it's also really good vs any gateway timing, as he starts making units blindly when a Zerg should defend a gateway timing. The combination of the two makes it a great metagame move against MC's builds.
I think against anything else, timings and macro builds, including an immortal all-in, it's fairly bad as he has far less drones (and therefore production) to hold off the attack, and he delays his tech a lot. In their GSL match, Creator was able to even get a 4th and max out before his pre hive push because of how delayed everything from DRG was.
Unless the P gets caught horribly out of position (which can happen but all it takes is leading with a zealot or probe to make sure you are safe to move out), any delayed/slower all-in like immortal/sentry or even blink stalkers will be even stronger because the Zerg's drone count isn't optimal.
True. I just feel that if you let a protoss walk across the map with 7 sentrys 1 zealot 3 immortals and a stalker and don't at least bait out forcefields it seems a bit counter-intuitive. Your last point is valid but you can still threaten counter attacks with this smaller army and buy time for your re-droning to kick in or still bait out forcefields and look for proxy's. The only thing I think this is really bad against (like you pointed out) is just a passive macro build that takes a fairly late 3rd but even then you can sometimes catch units off guard but if he takes a 3rd off 7 gates and a robo without blink a muta switch can be devastating.
No any build that either gets a void ray or just makes units off 4gates and a robo should hold it off easily.
I agree on the necessity to delay the attack, but pumping units out a full minute faster than optimal is not smart when the attack is already so scary for Z.
In my experience, the best bet ATM at least for me is being super-reactive with a speedling-based eco build, then derive into something else depending on the composition and your econ after holding off his attack... It is necesary to delay the attack, and overlord possitioning and active scouting around the 7:00 mark seems key to me, because of the 2-immortal all in I stated earlier.
On November 16 2012 00:37 Teoita wrote: Yeah, ling/baneling openings are interesting and they would definitely do well vs immortal all-ins...i remember seeing a Z (most likely Dimaga) completely dismantle the all-in with it.
The downside of course is that the midgame isn't as refined as it is with roach/ling/infestor builds, but if would be really cool if someone ironed out the timings for that kind of playstyle, PvZ atm is pretty rigid.
It is actually really easy to stop the immortal / sentry all in just by adding hydralisk into your mix with the roaches, the hydralisks destroy all units except colossi...I have a very high success rate stopping the immortal sentry all in with roach hydra speedling, with very few spines if timed correctly. Stephano style with hydras , the way to stop the immortal sentry all in. Then transition accordingly.
On November 16 2012 15:17 GGzerG wrote: It is actually really easy to stop the immortal / sentry all in just by adding hydralisk into your mix with the roaches, the hydralisks destroy all units except colossi...I have a very high success rate stopping the immortal sentry all in with roach hydra speedling, with very few spines if timed correctly. Stephano style with hydras , the way to stop the immortal sentry all in. Then transition accordingly.
EDIT : Just don't overmake the hydralisks.
You can't just say its "the way to stop immortal sentry all in" without high level replays/vods.
I should probably edit the OP about why hydras don't work. Basically upon scouting hydras they can back off, take a third for free behind colo, and shit on you with a pre-hive timing. Overmaking hydralisks...he can walk to your base and if you make less than, say, 10 hydralisks, he just kills you. If you make 10 he FFs you away and takes a third with colo, and then pre-hive timing = GG.
I mean it's great if they misread or misreact and attack into you, but you're making the worst offensive unit in the game in a situation where he can back off for free.
Like hydras have a huge success rate if he does attack into your concave, but that's a mistake Protoss players shouldn't make
On November 16 2012 15:30 Mavvie wrote: I should probably edit the OP about why hydras don't work. Basically upon scouting hydras they can back off, take a third for free behind colo, and shit on you with a pre-hive timing. Overmaking hydralisks...he can walk to your base and if you make less than, say, 10 hydralisks, he just kills you. If you make 10 he FFs you away and takes a third with colo, and then pre-hive timing = GG.
I mean it's great if they misread or misreact and attack into you, but you're making the worst offensive unit in the game in a situation where he can back off for free.
Like hydras have a huge success rate if he does attack into your concave, but that's a mistake Protoss players shouldn't make
Does anyone have any VOD's/replays of this happening in a game? I hear this a lot from a theorycrafting point of view but the backing off argument has a loooooooot of problems with it if Z reacts correctly. No matter what your unit comp if you're sitting on 3 base with 55 drones to his 45 and he has no 3rd, no robo bay, and an inferior army, you're ahead. You can harass/deny his 3rd while switching tech paths in time to deal with anything he can throw at you.
Also, since when are hydras the worst offensive unit in the game? they're committal, sure, but with range vs an army with a low colossi count I've found them to be quite good offensively.
And also from further testing from my replay/post before, it's definitely not fast GG (for him) if he attacks into you when you have hydra. It's still not an easy hold, though I think it's much better than roach/ling. Just once all your roach/ling dies and you're just left with hydra, you have to wait for reinforcements, or use drones. Pure hydra is one of the worst unit comps in the game.
I can post some reps (of wins and losses) with "reactionary" hydra (building hydras only if he moves out) if anyone's interested.
On November 16 2012 05:27 Teoita wrote: I agree on the necessity to delay the attack, but pumping units out a full minute faster than optimal is not smart when the attack is already so scary for Z.
According to me, the truth is the exact opposite. 60 drones dont help you holding the push. The magic number is more like around 54. It lets you mess with the protoss from the very moment he leaves his base. If you let protoss get to the other side of the map without messing with him, you can be maxed on roaches and still lose.
Historically speaking, the best zvp'ers in the world have been cutting drones earlier and earlier. The first way Z were answering immortal all-ins was the greedy way : 60 drones and a macro hatch before roach warren, lair before lingspeed to get roachspeed asap.
right now you'll see more probe cut around 54 like DRG and Stephano are doing for instance. Your argument that any follow up other than immortal all in from the toss is totally fail imo, and this is why :
1) those early lingspeed and units lets you kill the immortal sentry all in or kill like 60% of it at the exact moment it leaves it base. What this means is that a protoss trying to take a 3rd and having a few less gateways can not move out of his base for a moment. If Z identifies this, he can do a round of drones and go back to army, throw down an infestation pit or whatever. This situation is even better for the Z because the carapace will then be more likely to be done before any engagment.
2) You are arguing that a toss can identify those early units and then all he has to do is not move out too early. Unless he makes an observer, which not a single toss does (they wanna max immortal production), he cant. He "leads with a zealot"? big deal. I have a ling outside your base, I see that, I kill your zealot with 4 slow roaches and you didnt scout anything.
3) You argue that the Z will be weaker vs anything else from toss. First of all, WE DONT CARE. Anything else than immortal all in is easier to hold in comparison. Because carapace upgrade will be done, Z is likely to not have his lings get two shotted, and because Z will have infestors. Any third from the toss will be delayed enough to make the investment in units worth it. Remember than on 3 mining base with 54 drones the Z will mine more than the toss anyway. If the Z keeps making units and he's not able to deny your third, he's doing something wrong.
4) A flood of zergling + infestor will hold any non collossus timing. But collossus timings come really later and can be hold easilly those days with corruptors infestors spines zerglings. I havent seen a Z playing good at a pro level die to those kind of timings in a long time.
Monk posted these before and I replied a couple of pages back. The second game isn't really worth mentioning since he doesn't get hydras out in time. In the first game, Sen's build is not very good; he overdrones (61, general consensus seems to be 55 drones), gets 6 gas (I still can't decide if 4 or 5 is better, I think 5 is slightly better, adding the 5th when lair completes... 6 is definitely too high), and gets a late macrohatch. Those are his major errors; more minor ones/questionable decisions include not flanking, opting for +1 carapace instead of +1 melee (not sure whether or not this is good; I try to go for both), building pure hydra for reinforce (you NEED roaches or lings to shield), having poor creep spread, not getting any roaches, getting range instead of units, and losing all the drones at his 3rd in a really bad engagement.
Even given all this, at one point during the fight, Creator's forces are dwindling while Sen is engaging with a large hydra concave and no lings. If he pulls back here and waits for the 24 lings he's building to reinforce, I think he had a shot of holding. Instead he loses almost all his hydras, left with 4-5 at the end of the fight, and it's all downhill from there.
The margin of error when going hydra is still pretty small. Your build has to be very sharp, otherwise you don't get out enough units, and you have to be somewhat careful with your engagements. Still, it gives you a good shot at holding the push.
Yeah, but Sen held the first allin with 1-1 for his lings, but lost to the later 3Base-Collossi-allin. The only time i saw Parting not winning directly with this allin was against MVP.Sniper on Daybreak in the GSL 5 R16 Loosrs Match. Sniper delayed with lings, had 1carapace and sandwiched Parting. In the first engagement Sniper was able to kill a handful of sentries, so he could stream in and Parting gged, but it was very close nonetheless.
On November 18 2012 17:39 Rhedsa wrote: Yeah, but Sen held the first allin with 1-1 for his lings, but lost to the later 3Base-Collossi-allin. The only time i saw Parting not winning directly with this allin was against MVP.Sniper on Daybreak in the GSL 5 R16 Loosrs Match. Sniper delayed with lings, had 1carapace and sandwiched Parting. In the first engagement Sniper was able to kill a handful of sentries, so he could stream in and Parting gged, but it was very close nonetheless.
Suppy held it with spine/ling/infestor, even though I think he's an inferior player. Parting had some insane micro in that game, but eventually Suppy was able to overwhelm him with ling/infestor.
On November 18 2012 17:39 Rhedsa wrote: Yeah, but Sen held the first allin with 1-1 for his lings, but lost to the later 3Base-Collossi-allin. The only time i saw Parting not winning directly with this allin was against MVP.Sniper on Daybreak in the GSL 5 R16 Loosrs Match. Sniper delayed with lings, had 1carapace and sandwiched Parting. In the first engagement Sniper was able to kill a handful of sentries, so he could stream in and Parting gged, but it was very close nonetheless.
Suppy held it with spine/ling/infestor, even though I think he's an inferior player. Parting had some insane micro in that game, but eventually Suppy was able to overwhelm him with ling/infestor.
Well what I do is basicly the "overpowering" method and I have a lot of success with it in midmaster, tested successfully vs. high master: 0. Basic build is, 2gas@6; @7 Scout, roach, evo, +2gas, liar, (then speed); Scout will tell (if not allin it´ll be defensive and you can pressure). @ around 8-8:30 4th hatch(macro). Build up to 60 drones before any units (NO MORE OR YOU ARE DEAD!). Build only units from now until you either see a third or you defended successfully. You need to have 2 overlords at his base (it´s standard but sometimes poeple forget it).
1. With my Evo i go +1 defense 2. Build 16 Roaches max. ( you need 12 roaches to two-shot an immortal, that´s the logic behind it, but you really only get that if you are lucky so don´t yount on it, I´m reluctant to build more than 12 actually so...) 3. MASS LINGS YEAH! 4. Catch him midmap, (atleast twice!)
Notes: Idea: I tried all the other methods and this was the most successfull in my league. (mid-master) Scouting: early 4 gas, a robo and 4 finishing gates, a ton of sentrys and no stalkers (if theres 2 stalkers it´s most likely blink but most of the time you can scout the tech. Send a ling a bit after the overlord or a second one if you are not sure. General: If you get supplyblocked once you are dead. You HAVE to micro well (Focusfire, flanks, etc.). If you miss one inject you are Dead. Now of course these thing are against highmasters. I won with a missed inject against a midmaster too. This technique worked for me till top 8 master players. I can´t get any further in Ladder (cuz of my other matchups) and my Clan has no Grandmasters. But I guess since there only is a short percentage of players better than that; this could be helpful to somebody.
Key to this method (for me) is the +1 carapace, it makes your lings unstoppable (again :D). About creep: I do this from time to time on certain maps (e.g. Ohana) because you have to certain that the protoss comes from that angle (otherwise it´s wasted). Also you shouldn´t rely on the creep, but attack him way before that.
Reps: If you want, but it´s kinda that what the op already did, just a little adjustment here and there (which worked for me).
Need to check vods of suppy.. He was the only one who read this topic I guess.. I was very surprised other players didn't go mass spine and counter with ling 1/1 + roaches... sacrifice third and avoid fight..
Very disappointed scarlett didn't do that on antiga either.. + she didn't scout gases with ovie. Well it's easy to talk, but I think she was just very very nervous, since she didn't play well on 2nd and 3rd game too. A lot of reserve in Scarlett still.
What are the timings? Parting seems to do his 3 immortal all-in by moving out at 8:47 last time I watched. Usually some time before the 9 minute mark. This is about a full minute faster than most people you will ever meet or most pros will ever be able to pull off.
To beat this you may have to mess with him at about the 9 minute mark.
On November 18 2012 17:39 Rhedsa wrote: Yeah, but Sen held the first allin with 1-1 for his lings, but lost to the later 3Base-Collossi-allin. The only time i saw Parting not winning directly with this allin was against MVP.Sniper on Daybreak in the GSL 5 R16 Loosrs Match. Sniper delayed with lings, had 1carapace and sandwiched Parting. In the first engagement Sniper was able to kill a handful of sentries, so he could stream in and Parting gged, but it was very close nonetheless.
Suppy held it with spine/ling/infestor, even though I think he's an inferior player. Parting had some insane micro in that game, but eventually Suppy was able to overwhelm him with ling/infestor.
Starts at the 1 hr 30 min. mark almost exactly. Game is on Antiga.
Suppy basically assumes the immo/sentry allin and goes for a ton of spines straight into infestor. Parting sees the spines and is hesitant to go in; he then uses elevator play into Suppy's main base.Suppy moves all his spines to his main where a looooong battle ensues. Parting consistently picks up his immortals, keeping them alive with nearly 0 health and some amazing warp prism micro. Eventually, Suppy has to pull a ton of drones, but holds, leaving him with infestor/ling and 33 drones. Parting tries to take a 3rd but Suppy counters with his forces, and Parting GG's.
One reason the hold takes so long and has to pull so many drones is due to Parting's amazing control. Suppy probably could have fungal'd and focused down the warp prism with better control earlier, leaving him in a much better spot. Or he could have tried hydras =P
Sen also held Parting's allin on Daybreak with roach/ling, but Parting was able to kill Sen with a followup. I think this game was more or less even after the allin, but Parting just had a better followup.
But after I defeated Scarlett, Suppy examined her replays. Having seen my timings and strategies in those replays, Suppy blindly built 15 Spine Crawlers and Zerglings even before I had moved out to attack. My pride as a professional gamer could not tolerate such actions, so I decided to show him what for by attacking him even harder.
Anyone got a fresh replay of high lvl ZvP where the zerg defends immortal sentry allin on the map Cloud Kingdom. I want a game where the protoss don't fuck up with force fields.
And very important that the map is Cloud kingdom thx.
But after I defeated Scarlett, Suppy examined her replays. Having seen my timings and strategies in those replays, Suppy blindly built 15 Spine Crawlers and Zerglings even before I had moved out to attack. My pride as a professional gamer could not tolerate such actions, so I decided to show him what for by attacking him even harder.
This is not a legit way to hold this push.
Agreed. The only way Suppy beat PartinG in the first 2 games was basically by meta'ing him and taking a bunch of shortcuts. Then PartinG played standard and beat him 3 straight with relative ease. Not taking anything away from Suppy, but PartinG is kinda good.
The way Suppy played was not losing necessarily if Parting hadn't moved out, since he had infestor tech, a ton of drones, and a lot of spines (which he would have needed later anyway). However, he definitely assumed immo/sentry and his strat would have put him behind alternatives (like not getting a billion spines) if Parting had chosen to just expand.
And also, it was cool to see a foreigner hold Parting's infamous push =)
On November 19 2012 03:13 Siggeh wrote: Anyone got a fresh replay of high lvl ZvP where the zerg defends immortal sentry allin on the map Cloud Kingdom. I want a game where the protoss don't fuck up with force fields.
And very important that the map is Cloud kingdom thx.
I'm very interested in this as well. The third just feels impossible to hold, three FFs (one bwtn hatch and minerals, two on other side of hatch) cuts you off and lets him take away half the health on the hatch. He does this twice and you lose the hatch. Nearly impossible to stop unless you set up a double flank early, or have a ton of spines placed further forward than sen's two right next to the hatch. Worse, once you lose the hatch, you're behind in production and just lose, unlike +1 4-gate shenanigans where toss mostly wants to back off after taking out the hatch.
I'm seriously considering 2base muta or taking the third at the 3- or 9-o'clock bases on Cloud.
Unrelated: anyone try bane busting and/or countering for a base trade yet? This is after he pushes out. I don't know how the two layer wall influences it but it seems like it is important for saving toss' main against a straight counter (time for 4 sentry warpin) and thus any non-muta basetrade is dead before it starts.
I've a metagame theory that since most immortal-sentry all-ins mainly will be observer-less (or arriving later during the push), wouldn't it be cost-effective to include baneling mines across the map?
If it works, you get easy sentry kills and therefore stop the all-in, if not, you would at least still have ling/roaches to flank and defend.
If you see the push at 9:00, its easy enough to start morphing existing lings and strategically place the bane mines.
Unfortunately, I don't have a replay to back this theory up, but its an invitation for players to try and see the results?
On November 19 2012 12:09 ncsix wrote: I've a metagame theory that since most immortal-sentry all-ins mainly will be observer-less (or arriving later during the push), wouldn't it be cost-effective to include baneling mines across the map?
If it works, you get easy sentry kills and therefore stop the all-in, if not, you would at least still have ling/roaches to flank and defend.
If you see the push at 9:00, its easy enough to start morphing existing lings and strategically place the bane mines.
Unfortunately, I don't have a replay to back this theory up, but its an invitation for players to try and see the results?
When someone does a sentry immortal all in, their robo production goes as follows - Immo, Immo, Immo, prism, observer.
So lets take a look at the timings, if the protoss does the good version of the immo allin, they move out at 850. If they move out at this time they can usually be at your base just before roach speed is done (assuming standard gas timings). So roach speed is a 110 second upgrade. burrow is a 100 second upgrade. Due to the nature of the timing of the observer, for baneling landmines to work they would have to be on the protoss's side of the map. If you factor in the morphing time for the baneling, having to have them on opponents side of the map, and the research time of burrow, it won't work.
Also in general baneling landmines are a coinflip in that you can't guarantee where the toss army is going to be.
On November 19 2012 12:09 ncsix wrote: I've a metagame theory that since most immortal-sentry all-ins mainly will be observer-less (or arriving later during the push), wouldn't it be cost-effective to include baneling mines across the map?
If it works, you get easy sentry kills and therefore stop the all-in, if not, you would at least still have ling/roaches to flank and defend.
If you see the push at 9:00, its easy enough to start morphing existing lings and strategically place the bane mines.
Unfortunately, I don't have a replay to back this theory up, but its an invitation for players to try and see the results?
When someone does a sentry immortal all in, their robo production goes as follows - Immo, Immo, Immo, prism, observer.
So lets take a look at the timings, if the protoss does the good version of the immo allin, they move out at 850. If they move out at this time they can usually be at your base just before roach speed is done (assuming standard gas timings). So roach speed is a 110 second upgrade. burrow is a 100 second upgrade. Due to the nature of the timing of the observer, for baneling landmines to work they would have to be on the protoss's side of the map. If you factor in the morphing time for the baneling, having to have them on opponents side of the map, and the research time of burrow, it won't work.
Also in general baneling landmines are a coinflip in that you can't guarantee where the toss army is going to be.
There must be a tweak for 3 base, starting lair and bane nest earlier ~ 6- 7 mins. I wouldn't call landmines a coinflip, you might not be able to guarantee 100% trajectory or more likely full damage to sentries, but a competent zerg who's experienced with banemines could pull it off? You only need 1 success with 2 banes and you might have as many as 4 tries as he moves out from his base.
On November 19 2012 12:09 ncsix wrote: I've a metagame theory that since most immortal-sentry all-ins mainly will be observer-less (or arriving later during the push), wouldn't it be cost-effective to include baneling mines across the map?
If it works, you get easy sentry kills and therefore stop the all-in, if not, you would at least still have ling/roaches to flank and defend.
If you see the push at 9:00, its easy enough to start morphing existing lings and strategically place the bane mines.
Unfortunately, I don't have a replay to back this theory up, but its an invitation for players to try and see the results?
When someone does a sentry immortal all in, their robo production goes as follows - Immo, Immo, Immo, prism, observer.
So lets take a look at the timings, if the protoss does the good version of the immo allin, they move out at 850. If they move out at this time they can usually be at your base just before roach speed is done (assuming standard gas timings). So roach speed is a 110 second upgrade. burrow is a 100 second upgrade. Due to the nature of the timing of the observer, for baneling landmines to work they would have to be on the protoss's side of the map. If you factor in the morphing time for the baneling, having to have them on opponents side of the map, and the research time of burrow, it won't work.
Also in general baneling landmines are a coinflip in that you can't guarantee where the toss army is going to be.
There must be a tweak for 3 base, starting lair and bane nest earlier ~ 6- 7 mins. I wouldn't call landmines a coinflip, you might not be able to guarantee 100% trajectory or more likely full damage to sentries, but a competent zerg who's experienced with banemines could pull it off? You only need 1 success with 2 banes and you might have as many as 4 tries as he moves out from his base.
You also need to keep in mind tho, the standard timings for gasless 3 hatch are standard for a reason that they can deal with the whole range of builds that protoss can do. If you say that you should get an earlier lair to get burrow faster etc, you would say have to make double gas at 5:40 instead of 6:00. The problem with this is that it hurts your economy because you will have less minerals and when you would be making the decision to get the earlier gases, you can't know that the toss is doing a tech build themselves since you take your 2 gases (assuming you changed the timing to 5:40 instead) before the toss takes his natural gases (if he plans on it) most of the time.
On November 19 2012 03:13 Siggeh wrote: Anyone got a fresh replay of high lvl ZvP where the zerg defends immortal sentry allin on the map Cloud Kingdom. I want a game where the protoss don't fuck up with force fields.
And very important that the map is Cloud kingdom thx.
I'm very interested in this as well. The third just feels impossible to hold, three FFs (one bwtn hatch and minerals, two on other side of hatch) cuts you off and lets him take away half the health on the hatch. He does this twice and you lose the hatch. Nearly impossible to stop unless you set up a double flank early, or have a ton of spines placed further forward than sen's two right next to the hatch. Worse, once you lose the hatch, you're behind in production and just lose, unlike +1 4-gate shenanigans where toss mostly wants to back off after taking out the hatch.
I'm seriously considering 2base muta or taking the third at the 3- or 9-o'clock bases on Cloud.
Unrelated: anyone try bane busting and/or countering for a base trade yet? This is after he pushes out. I don't know how the two layer wall influences it but it seems like it is important for saving toss' main against a straight counter (time for 4 sentry warpin) and thus any non-muta basetrade is dead before it starts.
Really? I don't have any replays of Cloud (I rarely get sentry/immortaled, but after BWC that's bound to change), but I never lose to this on ladder. Optionally use Sen's gas timings (5:45 double gas, lair -> speed and optional double evo + double gas at ~7:15). I just cut drones at ~65, make a round of speedlings, then a round of roaches. Stay on 4 gasses, engage midmap and bait out forcefields. I'll post some replays tomorrow, but I honestly don't have trouble against it often. I usually win outright, and I imagine this is what it takes on Cloud too (if he gets to your third, you lose).
I don't like those other options man I'm thinking 7RR
I noticed that DRG v Creator in Group A, RO16 this season of GSL had really odd builds game one and two - it seemed like he was attempting to blindly counter this all-in with fast lings and roaches as soon as Creator moved out. It worked in Group E in RO32 but Creator did some basic metagaming and opened with stargate play instead which hard countered DRG's opening.
Parting's all-in is just so strange - safe against early pool builds because of the in base forge, safe against anything that isn't 3hatch (well, as safe as any other FFE is), and considering Parting's godly FF, safe against ling/roaches all the way to the enemy base. Even on Daybreak!
If zerg attempts to deviate too hard from standard droning and jump on their own sword economically, Parting can just take a third instead. It just hits at such a weird time for 3hatch zerg T___T
Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site)
On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote: Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site)
Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind.
i just have to ask the question, please no hate but in all honesty im suprised this hasnt come up some in games but why not go for hydra/ling? hydra ling in theory should beat this and also makes warp prism micro on immortals risky/impossible. I know everyone thinking it "hydras suck" but if you know someones going to go sentry/immortal allin aka ur playing parting, fast hydra ling should give u a win/hold. ive been playing around with it alittle in mid masters and it usually will hold unless godly ff or a huge mistake by me.
On November 19 2012 16:44 psychotics wrote: i just have to ask the question, please no hate but in all honesty im suprised this hasnt come up some in games but why not go for hydra/ling? hydra ling in theory should beat this and also makes warp prism micro on immortals risky/impossible. I know everyone thinking it "hydras suck" but if you know someones going to go sentry/immortal allin aka ur playing parting, fast hydra ling should give u a win/hold. ive been playing around with it alittle in mid masters and it usually will hold unless godly ff or a huge mistake by me.
hydras are a huge commit. if the protoss just back up and expand, you do any shit with hydra...
On November 19 2012 16:44 psychotics wrote: i just have to ask the question, please no hate but in all honesty im suprised this hasnt come up some in games but why not go for hydra/ling? hydra ling in theory should beat this and also makes warp prism micro on immortals risky/impossible. I know everyone thinking it "hydras suck" but if you know someones going to go sentry/immortal allin aka ur playing parting, fast hydra ling should give u a win/hold. ive been playing around with it alittle in mid masters and it usually will hold unless godly ff or a huge mistake by me.
hydras are a huge commit. if the protoss just back up and expand, you do any shit with hydra...
To the people saying "oh they scout hydras they just back off or expand.. The immortal sentry allin has 2 pretty big flaws that need to be exploited. 1) mobility: immortals and sentries are slowish and cant fight in the open so must be near walls or chokes to actually fight. 2) ALMOST 0 SCOUTING. this build does not come with an observer and so they will not see hydras or anything after u deal with the intial scouting probe or zealot.
with this in mind hydras actually can be pretty useful no observer means u if u can push ur creep out from ur third you will have more room to get into a good engagement and im pretty sure they will not have colosus out in a timely manner to keep you from denying their third for a while. it will be ok to once defending the allin use ur hydras to deny the third at this point the hydras are meaningless units and its ok to commit them and lose them becuase after the intial hold all ur gas goes into infestor and hive. and play out the game normally from there. (obviously this is all theoritical because there are no top level zergs doing this because its risky if they dont go immortal sentry allin)
edit: also hydras immortals and sentries all have same movement speed off creep with hydras being faster on creep
On November 19 2012 16:44 psychotics wrote: i just have to ask the question, please no hate but in all honesty im suprised this hasnt come up some in games but why not go for hydra/ling? hydra ling in theory should beat this and also makes warp prism micro on immortals risky/impossible. I know everyone thinking it "hydras suck" but if you know someones going to go sentry/immortal allin aka ur playing parting, fast hydra ling should give u a win/hold. ive been playing around with it alittle in mid masters and it usually will hold unless godly ff or a huge mistake by me.
hydras are a huge commit. if the protoss just back up and expand, you do any shit with hydra...
To the people saying "oh they scout hydras they just back off or expand.. The immortal sentry allin has 2 pretty big flaws that need to be exploited. 1) mobility: immortals and sentries are slowish and cant fight in the open so must be near walls or chokes to actually fight. 2) ALMOST 0 SCOUTING. this build does not come with an observer and so they will not see hydras or anything after u deal with the intial scouting probe or zealot.
with this in mind hydras actually can be pretty useful no observer means u if u can push ur creep out from ur third you will have more room to get into a good engagement and im pretty sure they will not have colosus out in a timely manner to keep you from denying their third for a while. it will be ok to once defending the allin use ur hydras to deny the third at this point the hydras are meaningless units and its ok to commit them and lose them becuase after the intial hold all ur gas goes into infestor and hive. and play out the game normally from there. (obviously this is all theoritical because there are no top level zergs doing this because its risky if they dont go immortal sentry allin)
edit: also hydras immortals and sentries all have same movement speed off creep with hydras being faster on creep
Read the thread. There are a few pro game examples of hydras still losing (posted twice now, it seems), because they also suck against FF, and are always fragile. So even if it wasn't a big deal that toss can abort the push and take a third and add a robo bay (which is SUPER easy for toss to do, and you don't actually address it in either point, he can even leave after walking all the way over, you'll be hard-pressed to chase him down and still win the fight), you still risk losing to the push due to FFing followed by zealot warp-ins. Zealots are awesome against lings and hydras, and FF will ensure that they don't get kited.
I'd say hydras have been demonstrated to be a poor solution, if they can even be called a solution.
On November 19 2012 12:09 ncsix wrote: I've a metagame theory that since most immortal-sentry all-ins mainly will be observer-less (or arriving later during the push), wouldn't it be cost-effective to include baneling mines across the map?
If it works, you get easy sentry kills and therefore stop the all-in, if not, you would at least still have ling/roaches to flank and defend.
If you see the push at 9:00, its easy enough to start morphing existing lings and strategically place the bane mines.
Unfortunately, I don't have a replay to back this theory up, but its an invitation for players to try and see the results?
When someone does a sentry immortal all in, their robo production goes as follows - Immo, Immo, Immo, prism, observer.
So lets take a look at the timings, if the protoss does the good version of the immo allin, they move out at 850. If they move out at this time they can usually be at your base just before roach speed is done (assuming standard gas timings). So roach speed is a 110 second upgrade. burrow is a 100 second upgrade. Due to the nature of the timing of the observer, for baneling landmines to work they would have to be on the protoss's side of the map. If you factor in the morphing time for the baneling, having to have them on opponents side of the map, and the research time of burrow, it won't work.
Also in general baneling landmines are a coinflip in that you can't guarantee where the toss army is going to be.
Perhaps worse than the coinflip is that if this works even once in a pro game, you can bet they'll just go obs before prism, or even before the 3rd immortal if necessary. In all cases, the long-term problem is that burrowed banes can be easily countered because they already have the robo.
Or they'll just take a weird path instead of a-moving. Or just spread the sentries a little. Too many little holes to be a reliable solution.
On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote: Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site)
Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind.
What I did is not blind. You can tell if it's a robo expand or a robo sentry immortal all in based on if they stop making probes at 7:45.
On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote: Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site)
Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind.
What I did is not blind. You can tell if it's a robo expand or a robo sentry immortal all in based on if they stop making probes at 7:45.
I'm nowhere near Suppy's level or gamesense and my opponents are very far from being pros as well, but against mid-high masters it works very well. Just spam lings on 4 hatches and plop down 5-6 spines minimum at the third and nat while getting infestors.
So for many people in this thread this should work well, just keep up on your injects, don't be afraid to make a ton of spines when you recognize the build and hold until infestors. I try to sneak in a +1 melee or +1 carapace after lair as well, not sure which one is better or if it's to risky to work every time though.
On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote: Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site)
Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind.
What I did is not blind. You can tell if it's a robo expand or a robo sentry immortal all in based on if they stop making probes at 7:45.
I'm nowhere near Suppy's level or gamesense and my opponents are very far from being pros as well, but against mid-high masters it works very well. Just spam lings on 4 hatches and plop down 5-6 spines minimum at the third and nat while getting infestors.
So for many people in this thread this should work well, just keep up on your injects, don't be afraid to make a ton of spines when you recognize the build and hold until infestors. I try to sneak in a +1 melee or +1 carapace after lair as well, not sure which one is better or if it's to risky to work every time though.
this is very interesting.. can u provide some more details please? is this basically 3 base (+ 1 macro hatch) rush to infestors with mass spines? i assume this style is rochless and the lings are not upgraded..isn't it? i should search vs suppy vs parting games.
On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote: Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site)
Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind.
What I did is not blind. You can tell if it's a robo expand or a robo sentry immortal all in based on if they stop making probes at 7:45.
I'm nowhere near Suppy's level or gamesense and my opponents are very far from being pros as well, but against mid-high masters it works very well. Just spam lings on 4 hatches and plop down 5-6 spines minimum at the third and nat while getting infestors.
So for many people in this thread this should work well, just keep up on your injects, don't be afraid to make a ton of spines when you recognize the build and hold until infestors. I try to sneak in a +1 melee or +1 carapace after lair as well, not sure which one is better or if it's to risky to work every time though.
this is very interesting.. can u provide some more details please? is this basically 3 base (+ 1 macro hatch) rush to infestors with mass spines? i assume this style is rochless and the lings are not upgraded..isn't it? i should search vs suppy vs parting games.
Just go back a couple of pages, I linked the VOD
Oh and what's up Suppy? Nice job at WCS =) You beasted pretty hard.
Read the thread. There are a few pro game examples of hydras still losing (posted twice now, it seems), because they also suck against FF, and are always fragile. So even if it wasn't a big deal that toss can abort the push and take a third and add a robo bay (which is SUPER easy for toss to do, and you don't actually address it in either point, he can even leave after walking all the way over, you'll be hard-pressed to chase him down and still win the fight), you still risk losing to the push due to FFing followed by zealot warp-ins. Zealots are awesome against lings and hydras, and FF will ensure that they don't get kited.
I'd say hydras have been demonstrated to be a poor solution, if they can even be called a solution.
As I posted before, these "examples" are pretty bad. Sen, despite his other significant strengths, is not that great at holding immo/sentry, as evidenced by WCS.
Note that in all these games, I build hydras AFTER he pushes out:
http://drop.sc/276966 - On Cloud Kingdom, pretty normal game. http://drop.sc/276967 - On Cloud Kingdom again. I have to pull drones, but I mop up pretty easily with reinforcements. http://drop.sc/276964 - On Daybreak. An example of a game where I have about equal drones with his probes (I had to drone pull) after the fight, but because I'm able to resupply drones quickly and tech switch I win pretty easily. http://drop.sc/276968 - A loss on Ohana. My hydras don't have enough of a meat shield this game because I overcommitted and didn't pull drones appropriately.
With hydras, your build still has to be very clean, and if all your ling/roach die, you HAVE to pull drones to tank for your hydras, or pull back to wait for reinforcements. Never let your hydras fight alone.
Also on upgrades: I'm leaning towards +1 carapace to buff your whole army and not have your lings 2-shotted by zeals. Still experimenting though. Low drone counts in the game come from me not being that good with my macro; I think you can drone to 55ish pretty safely before producing units in this build.
On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote: Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site)
Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind.
What I did is not blind. You can tell if it's a robo expand or a robo sentry immortal all in based on if they stop making probes at 7:45.
I'm nowhere near Suppy's level or gamesense and my opponents are very far from being pros as well, but against mid-high masters it works very well. Just spam lings on 4 hatches and plop down 5-6 spines minimum at the third and nat while getting infestors.
So for many people in this thread this should work well, just keep up on your injects, don't be afraid to make a ton of spines when you recognize the build and hold until infestors. I try to sneak in a +1 melee or +1 carapace after lair as well, not sure which one is better or if it's to risky to work every time though.
this is very interesting.. can u provide some more details please? is this basically 3 base (+ 1 macro hatch) rush to infestors with mass spines? i assume this style is rochless and the lings are not upgraded..isn't it? i should search vs suppy vs parting games.
Standard 3base into double gas at 6:00, if I see double gas at natural I get +1 melee after lair, if not lair first. 2 more gas when I start lair, macro hatch a bit after that. Then as soon as I recognize the push is coming pump lings from the 4 hatches (a 4th queen is actually a good idea after a while since lings don't cost much money but many larva). Infestor pit as soon as the lair is finished.
And yeah I skip the roach warren if I see double gas, only make it if one or no gas. And I don't get roach speed until much later or don't even make any roaches if I don't have to.
On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote: Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site)
Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind.
With the mass spine build, wouldn't he have been able to cancel a bunch of spines if he saw an expand? That would leave you with a nice drone lead + infestors, how would he be that far behind?
I go 5:45 double gas, and got a late roach warren + evo (forgot; would've liked it at 7:15-7:30). I just swarm his all in and win easily, kinda funny. A +2 blink/immortal all in later and he GG's, I had >80 drones, hive, and yeah definitely a winning position.
Good replay to watch IMO, an extremely clean defense.
On November 20 2012 08:31 Mavvie wrote: I played against this on ladder yesterday, and I don't see it as that powerful. I guess mid master toss' are bad :D
I go 5:45 double gas, and got a late roach warren + evo (forgot; would've liked it at 7:15-7:30). I just swarm his all in and win easily, kinda funny. A +2 blink/immortal all in later and he GG's, I had >80 drones, hive, and yeah definitely a winning position.
Good replay to watch IMO, an extremely clean defense.
Not to diminish your play or anything, but that replay is pretty irrelevant. He made the worst possible mistakes while moving out: he never used his stalker to scout ahead (he should have scouted that amount of zergling close to the watch tower), he misplaced his force fields which were completely useless since he didn't put distance between his army and your roaches (they were basically shooting without hindrance, like there was no force field at all) and he just rallied away his warp prism to your third without ever having it factor into the battle (wouldn't have made much of a difference probably, but still, Parting's WP micro IS part of how he keeps the immortals alive especially against large waves of zerglings). You played really well, but he played really bad, this is not how a sentry/immortal all in is supposed to go. It's not one of those all ins that work because you get the enemy off guard and can safely a-move to victory, it's strong because the units involved are strong if used correctly.
I used to play a particular 3 hatch ling/hydra build that worked really well against any two base timing, Immortal all in included, but the amount of opponents I play around the top50 GM is limited and most of em started to blind counter it after losing one or two games. Overall, the build I played in the replay is the most solid but it takes decent engagements and flawless macro, otherwise you simply won't have enough. Ideally, you want to avoid the supply block at 7.10 and maybe see something with the overlord, so you don't need the 3 blind spores that I had to build.
I used to play a particular 3 hatch ling/hydra build that worked really well against any two base timing, Immortal all in included, but the amount of opponents I play around the top50 GM is limited and most of em started to blind counter it after losing one or two games. Overall, the build I played in the replay is the most solid but it takes decent engagements and flawless macro, otherwise you simply won't have enough. Ideally, you want to avoid the supply block at 7.10 and maybe see something with the overlord, so you don't need the 3 blind spores that I had to build.
Ok so basically, its standard opening and building all units you can from 8:00 ?
Did you take only 3 gas because of the supply block or do you take always only 3 gas ?
I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow.
I used to play a particular 3 hatch ling/hydra build that worked really well against any two base timing, Immortal all in included, but the amount of opponents I play around the top50 GM is limited and most of em started to blind counter it after losing one or two games. Overall, the build I played in the replay is the most solid but it takes decent engagements and flawless macro, otherwise you simply won't have enough. Ideally, you want to avoid the supply block at 7.10 and maybe see something with the overlord, so you don't need the 3 blind spores that I had to build.
Ok so basically, its standard opening and building all units you can from 8:00 ?
Did you take only 3 gas because of the supply block or do you take always only 3 gas ?
Yes it's very similar to a standard opening but you need to have a macro hatchery going and the upgrade in production (carapace) by the 7:50, at 8:00 you must have alredy started your unit production. The macro hatchery is to support the ling swarm, you never want to have more than 3 gasses or you'll have to go for a mostly roach composition. A roach only defense is hopeless against any proper Immortal all in, not only it forces you into +attack ranged which is bad for late game transitions, but you won't even have speed by the time he's in your base. You will need lings to bite forcefields and snipe sentries or it's impossible to hold it.
I used to play a particular 3 hatch ling/hydra build that worked really well against any two base timing, Immortal all in included, but the amount of opponents I play around the top50 GM is limited and most of em started to blind counter it after losing one or two games. Overall, the build I played in the replay is the most solid but it takes decent engagements and flawless macro, otherwise you simply won't have enough. Ideally, you want to avoid the supply block at 7.10 and maybe see something with the overlord, so you don't need the 3 blind spores that I had to build.
Ok so basically, its standard opening and building all units you can from 8:00 ?
Did you take only 3 gas because of the supply block or do you take always only 3 gas ?
Yes it's very similar to a standard opening but you need to have a macro hatchery going and the upgrade in production (carapace) by the 7:50, at 8:00 you must have alredy started your unit production. The macro hatchery is to support the ling swarm, you never want to have more than 3 gasses or you'll have to go for a mostly roach composition. A roach only defense is hopeless against any proper Immortal all in, not only it forces you into +attack ranged which is bad for late game transitions, but you won't even have speed by the time he's in your base. You will need lings to bite forcefields and snipe sentries or it's impossible to hold it.
Infested Terrans, respect how well their damage scales with upgrades!
On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote: I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow.
Protoss always gets an obs with this build.
Also Evaner, do you have trouble if the Protoss just fakes the immortal all-in and expands instead (say you see 4gates, no twilight, 2 immortals, and then your ovie scout gets killed)? What's your reaction then?
On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote: I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow.
You always build an obs after the WP and rally it to your army, by the time burrow would be a problem your obs is there.
On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote: I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow.
Protoss always gets an obs with this build.
Also Evaner, do you have trouble if the Protoss just fakes the immortal all-in and expands instead (say you see 4gates, no twilight, 2 immortals, and then your ovie scout gets killed)? What's your reaction then?
Isn't Evaner's response the standard one (with maybe 1 less gas)? He seems to play it out pretty cleanly from standard play. How is how he would react any different from standard?
Also, as Suppy (SuperiorWolf) said, one of the best ways to read this build is to probe count and check for chrono on the nexus, otherwise you can't know for sure. If he does have the standard ~45ish probe count and chooses to expand instead of attack, you should still have a slight edge with your higher drone count (as long as you catch his expo asap).
On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote: I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow.
As protoss after you move out with 3 immortals you should be rallying a warp prism and then an observer (I usually rally directly onto an immortal).
So generally burrow wouldn't hit for a little while after the push it self hits, meaning that your observer should be ready by the time burrow would be scary.
On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote: I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow.
Protoss always gets an obs with this build.
Also Evaner, do you have trouble if the Protoss just fakes the immortal all-in and expands instead (say you see 4gates, no twilight, 2 immortals, and then your ovie scout gets killed)? What's your reaction then?
If he takes a third you just add another 2 gasses, take a forth and then the last gas. Obviously you will have made quite a few units by the time he tryes to take a third, you should easly be able to deny it and often time even snipe some sentries as soon as speed kicks in.
On November 21 2012 10:10 Incomplet wrote: Meanwhile in Korea, the last Protoss (Creator) gets knocked out of Code S. Ironic that he falls trying to use this strategy in the final game lol.
Creator tilted badly. His timing was late, he ran his sentries in a line instead of in a ball. Creator's always been terribad with this soul build. Last time he tried to do this shit against DRG, he died also.
On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote: I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow.
Protoss always gets an obs with this build.
Also Evaner, do you have trouble if the Protoss just fakes the immortal all-in and expands instead (say you see 4gates, no twilight, 2 immortals, and then your ovie scout gets killed)? What's your reaction then?
I'd love to see one replay of a player WAITING for the obs before attacking the 3rd. I'm not saying you burrow and auto win, but burrow should buy you 2 injects worth of units every single time. Am I wrong about that or is that extra production not worth the earlier gas?
On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote: I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow.
Protoss always gets an obs with this build.
Also Evaner, do you have trouble if the Protoss just fakes the immortal all-in and expands instead (say you see 4gates, no twilight, 2 immortals, and then your ovie scout gets killed)? What's your reaction then?
I'd love to see one replay of a player WAITING for the obs before attacking the 3rd. I'm not saying you burrow and auto win, but burrow should buy you 2 injects worth of units every single time. Am I wrong about that or is that extra production not worth the earlier gas?
Even if it does, i can keep warping units while you get your injects, and when my obs is here your burrow is useless. Not saying it's never worth it tho, it can help tilt the protoss player, and can be very useful on larger maps where the obs would take forever to arrive. Just saying it's not a 100% counter to the strategy altogether.
True I guess your still adding to your army. And I guess if your gonna research something from lair you might as well go drop (although that takes longer iirc). Fair enough. Asked and answered.
On November 21 2012 14:43 Dubsy wrote: True I guess your still adding to your army. And I guess if your gonna research something from lair you might as well go drop (although that takes longer iirc). Fair enough. Asked and answered.
Yeah, there was actually a game in GSL in the r16 where a player in Abyssal City actually just micro'd his push around for a few minutes against MVPsniper because he couldn't bust him, but he kept buying time by being aggressive and cutting off small portions of the army so Sniper couldn't afford to tech, and he actually maxxed out on the 2 base all-in and just killed sniper due to the inefficiency of a pure zergling/roach max army.
Read the thread. There are a few pro game examples of hydras still losing (posted twice now, it seems), because they also suck against FF, and are always fragile. So even if it wasn't a big deal that toss can abort the push and take a third and add a robo bay (which is SUPER easy for toss to do, and you don't actually address it in either point, he can even leave after walking all the way over, you'll be hard-pressed to chase him down and still win the fight), you still risk losing to the push due to FFing followed by zealot warp-ins. Zealots are awesome against lings and hydras, and FF will ensure that they don't get kited.
I'd say hydras have been demonstrated to be a poor solution, if they can even be called a solution.
As I posted before, these "examples" are pretty bad. Sen, despite his other significant strengths, is not that great at holding immo/sentry, as evidenced by WCS.
Note that in all these games, I build hydras AFTER he pushes out:
http://drop.sc/276966 - On Cloud Kingdom, pretty normal game. http://drop.sc/276967 - On Cloud Kingdom again. I have to pull drones, but I mop up pretty easily with reinforcements. http://drop.sc/276964 - On Daybreak. An example of a game where I have about equal drones with his probes (I had to drone pull) after the fight, but because I'm able to resupply drones quickly and tech switch I win pretty easily. http://drop.sc/276968 - A loss on Ohana. My hydras don't have enough of a meat shield this game because I overcommitted and didn't pull drones appropriately.
With hydras, your build still has to be very clean, and if all your ling/roach die, you HAVE to pull drones to tank for your hydras, or pull back to wait for reinforcements. Never let your hydras fight alone.
Also on upgrades: I'm leaning towards +1 carapace to buff your whole army and not have your lings 2-shotted by zeals. Still experimenting though. Low drone counts in the game come from me not being that good with my macro; I think you can drone to 55ish pretty safely before producing units in this build.
I've been refining the "reactionary hydra" idea further, and I tested with my masters toss friend on the retreat option. A typical criticism of going hydra is that he can just retreat and go colossi. However, colossi take SO long to get that you can easily transition to corruptor and max out in time, while droning and getting to 6 gas (if he goes to 2base). Here is an example:
http://drop.sc/277488 - He sees my hydra/ling army and retreats. I immediately drone and scout him. When I see the robo bay, I drop a spire and max out on roach. He pushes with 3 colossi and I crush it pretty easily. He ends up basically basetrading with me because I handle his warp prism harass really poorly, but I'm so flushed with cash that I max out and have to build a ton of spines to free up supply for corruptors. I engage horribly, especially when attacking into him, and nearly ignore his harass, don't get infestors or tech to hive, but I win because I'm miles ahead.
If he goes to 3base, it's like the game resets where you have 55 to 45 workers and slightly more tech with equal armies.
Does anyone have any response to this idea? Haven't gotten any replies, so I'm thinking of starting its own thread, though I think it belongs here =P
Is it a requirement to try bait out forcefields? Can you simply just try for a flank?
I find that baiting forcefields is way to risky and usually results me losing lots of units. Also the fact that protosses seem to never forcefield when you are trying to bait xD
On November 21 2012 18:31 blug wrote: Is it a requirement to try bait out forcefields? Can you simply just try for a flank?
I find that baiting forcefields is way to risky and usually results me losing lots of units. Also the fact that protosses seem to never forcefield when you are trying to bait xD
He has enough sentries to entirely surround his army with FF and then some, if you don't bait any as he walks over, and that will negate any flank attempts that you set up as part of the One Big Engagement. If you wait until he's at your third, he will blanket the entire world in FFs and you will lose the hatch. I have never seen anyone win, or even come close to stabilizing, after losing the third, the loss of 1/3 or 1/4 of your production is crippling and ensures you die when he walks over to your natural.
Read the thread. There are a few pro game examples of hydras still losing (posted twice now, it seems), because they also suck against FF, and are always fragile. So even if it wasn't a big deal that toss can abort the push and take a third and add a robo bay (which is SUPER easy for toss to do, and you don't actually address it in either point, he can even leave after walking all the way over, you'll be hard-pressed to chase him down and still win the fight), you still risk losing to the push due to FFing followed by zealot warp-ins. Zealots are awesome against lings and hydras, and FF will ensure that they don't get kited.
I'd say hydras have been demonstrated to be a poor solution, if they can even be called a solution.
As I posted before, these "examples" are pretty bad. Sen, despite his other significant strengths, is not that great at holding immo/sentry, as evidenced by WCS.
Note that in all these games, I build hydras AFTER he pushes out:
http://drop.sc/276966 - On Cloud Kingdom, pretty normal game. http://drop.sc/276967 - On Cloud Kingdom again. I have to pull drones, but I mop up pretty easily with reinforcements. http://drop.sc/276964 - On Daybreak. An example of a game where I have about equal drones with his probes (I had to drone pull) after the fight, but because I'm able to resupply drones quickly and tech switch I win pretty easily. http://drop.sc/276968 - A loss on Ohana. My hydras don't have enough of a meat shield this game because I overcommitted and didn't pull drones appropriately.
With hydras, your build still has to be very clean, and if all your ling/roach die, you HAVE to pull drones to tank for your hydras, or pull back to wait for reinforcements. Never let your hydras fight alone.
Also on upgrades: I'm leaning towards +1 carapace to buff your whole army and not have your lings 2-shotted by zeals. Still experimenting though. Low drone counts in the game come from me not being that good with my macro; I think you can drone to 55ish pretty safely before producing units in this build.
I've been refining the "reactionary hydra" idea further, and I tested with my masters toss friend on the retreat option. A typical criticism of going hydra is that he can just retreat and go colossi. However, colossi take SO long to get that you can easily transition to corruptor and max out in time, while droning and getting to 6 gas (if he goes to 2base). Here is an example:
http://drop.sc/277488 - He sees my hydra/ling army and retreats. I immediately drone and scout him. When I see the robo bay, I drop a spire and max out on roach. He pushes with 3 colossi and I crush it pretty easily. He ends up basically basetrading with me because I handle his warp prism harass really poorly, but I'm so flushed with cash that I max out and have to build a ton of spines to free up supply for corruptors. I engage horribly, especially when attacking into him, and nearly ignore his harass, don't get infestors or tech to hive, but I win because I'm miles ahead.
If he goes to 3base, it's like the game resets where you have 55 to 45 workers and slightly more tech with equal armies.
Does anyone have any response to this idea? Haven't gotten any replies, so I'm thinking of starting its own thread, though I think it belongs here =P
I missed this, actually. Sounds interesting, sounds complete in theory, although of course hydras make me a little wary. I will go through your replays tomorrow afternoon/evening and post my thoughts. I'll probably look at mavvie's replay, too.
The best way to know if hydra are the answer is to practice it on the ladder and see how it goes. as I have 99% loss against this all in, I'll try and see how it goes.
Read the thread. There are a few pro game examples of hydras still losing (posted twice now, it seems), because they also suck against FF, and are always fragile. So even if it wasn't a big deal that toss can abort the push and take a third and add a robo bay (which is SUPER easy for toss to do, and you don't actually address it in either point, he can even leave after walking all the way over, you'll be hard-pressed to chase him down and still win the fight), you still risk losing to the push due to FFing followed by zealot warp-ins. Zealots are awesome against lings and hydras, and FF will ensure that they don't get kited.
I'd say hydras have been demonstrated to be a poor solution, if they can even be called a solution.
As I posted before, these "examples" are pretty bad. Sen, despite his other significant strengths, is not that great at holding immo/sentry, as evidenced by WCS.
Note that in all these games, I build hydras AFTER he pushes out:
http://drop.sc/276966 - On Cloud Kingdom, pretty normal game. http://drop.sc/276967 - On Cloud Kingdom again. I have to pull drones, but I mop up pretty easily with reinforcements. http://drop.sc/276964 - On Daybreak. An example of a game where I have about equal drones with his probes (I had to drone pull) after the fight, but because I'm able to resupply drones quickly and tech switch I win pretty easily. http://drop.sc/276968 - A loss on Ohana. My hydras don't have enough of a meat shield this game because I overcommitted and didn't pull drones appropriately.
With hydras, your build still has to be very clean, and if all your ling/roach die, you HAVE to pull drones to tank for your hydras, or pull back to wait for reinforcements. Never let your hydras fight alone.
Also on upgrades: I'm leaning towards +1 carapace to buff your whole army and not have your lings 2-shotted by zeals. Still experimenting though. Low drone counts in the game come from me not being that good with my macro; I think you can drone to 55ish pretty safely before producing units in this build.
I've been refining the "reactionary hydra" idea further, and I tested with my masters toss friend on the retreat option. A typical criticism of going hydra is that he can just retreat and go colossi. However, colossi take SO long to get that you can easily transition to corruptor and max out in time, while droning and getting to 6 gas (if he goes to 2base). Here is an example:
http://drop.sc/277488 - He sees my hydra/ling army and retreats. I immediately drone and scout him. When I see the robo bay, I drop a spire and max out on roach. He pushes with 3 colossi and I crush it pretty easily. He ends up basically basetrading with me because I handle his warp prism harass really poorly, but I'm so flushed with cash that I max out and have to build a ton of spines to free up supply for corruptors. I engage horribly, especially when attacking into him, and nearly ignore his harass, don't get infestors or tech to hive, but I win because I'm miles ahead.
If he goes to 3base, it's like the game resets where you have 55 to 45 workers and slightly more tech with equal armies.
Does anyone have any response to this idea? Haven't gotten any replies, so I'm thinking of starting its own thread, though I think it belongs here =P
I missed this, actually. Sounds interesting, sounds complete in theory, although of course hydras make me a little wary. I will go through your replays tomorrow afternoon/evening and post my thoughts. I'll probably look at mavvie's replay, too.
Yeah, it's a good idea! I'm convinced that you're in a shitty position if he fakes a push out (with only 2 immortals or something), then takes a third. Whatever, it'll be cool to try out more. I'll read that thread shortly
As a warning about my replay: my opponent sucks, but I execute the defense timings close to optimally.
On November 21 2012 22:10 Mavvie wrote: Yeah, it's a good idea! I'm convinced that you're in a shitty position if he fakes a push out (with only 2 immortals or something), then takes a third. Whatever, it'll be cool to try out more. I'll read that thread shortly
If you're really on top of your game and you see him just clear the watchtower and pull back, you can always cancel your hydras and get your res back =P
I don't think this is necessary though; a low number of hydras in a max'd army is a lot better than pure roach or pure roach/ling or whatever since they'll stay alive and do good dps. Same idea with adding a few hydras to zvz; few hydra with mass roach > mass roach.
At the level required for a toss player to fake a moveout, you should have tried to get a worker count on him to see if he was leaning allin, as Suppy said (I don't do this, a tad too high level for me =P). You should also keep an OL/ling at his 3rd to see if/when he drops it immediately. If your ling/OL dies replace it right away; if you think he's going allin for too long and you delay tech/drones, you can be in trouble.
Still, there are numerous followups to if he decides to go colossus instead of push, with or without a 3rd. If you disagree with the decisions made in the last replay I posted, just look at the state of the game when he retreats; I could have gone for drop/banerain, infestor/spine (with same spire timing for earlier corruptors), maybe even taken a 4th, etc.
I mentioned this in your other thread, but I'll also say it here.
I recommend proxying the hydralisk den and letting it die off of creep so that a) he's less likely to see it if he did happen to go obs first, so he's less likely to rush out a colossus b) removes the temptation to make hydralisks at any other point in the game apart from the one specific moment where you may need them
i really hate this allin.. i m soooo bad vs this build. I have just lost a game in which i made the "suppy build".. i hit 70 supply at 8 minute mark and when the attack came i had 10 spines (i left my third completley), 5 infestors, ling with +1 carapce and i lost.. probably due to a bad micro/engagement.. but i don't know its hard to hold for me. I play vs high diamond and low master and at least 8 /10 toss use this allin. crazy.
On November 21 2012 16:25 Defenestrator wrote: I've been refining the "reactionary hydra" idea further, and I tested with my masters toss friend on the retreat option. A typical criticism of going hydra is that he can just retreat and go colossi. However, colossi take SO long to get that you can easily transition to corruptor and max out in time, while droning and getting to 6 gas (if he goes to 2base). Here is an example:
http://drop.sc/277488 - He sees my hydra/ling army and retreats. I immediately drone and scout him. When I see the robo bay, I drop a spire and max out on roach. He pushes with 3 colossi and I crush it pretty easily. He ends up basically basetrading with me because I handle his warp prism harass really poorly, but I'm so flushed with cash that I max out and have to build a ton of spines to free up supply for corruptors. I engage horribly, especially when attacking into him, and nearly ignore his harass, don't get infestors or tech to hive, but I win because I'm miles ahead.
If he goes to 3base, it's like the game resets where you have 55 to 45 workers and slightly more tech with equal armies.
Does anyone have any response to this idea? Haven't gotten any replies, so I'm thinking of starting its own thread, though I think it belongs here =P
With the usual caveats that I don't play Zerg and I'm not knowedgable about the details, Defenestrator's choice of using hydras makes a lot of sense to me.
The goal is to be able to survive the immortal/sentry push without crippling yourself against everything else. In this case, Defenestrator can scout that Protoss has delayed his third base, has 4 gases and an immortal+sentry composition, so Protoss has just two good options: all-in, or take a slow third base.
If preemptively building 10 or so hydras before Protoss commits allows you to defend the all-in, then you only need to worry about the option where Protoss takes a late third base. In this case, you've deviated from your optimal path by slowing your droning somewhat and spending gas on hydras. But in order to sell the all-in, Protoss must also deviate from his optimal path by delaying his third, reducing his worker count (which you should be able to scout on most maps), making more sentries than will be optimal when infestors are out, and potentially delaying his AoE tech.
In light of everything Protoss sacrifices to sell the all-in and force this reaction out of Zerg, I don't think Zerg's being forced to build some hydras is a big problem. As Defenestrator noted, it's not difficult to get corruptors and infestors out to defend a 3-base push. You may have to delay broodlords somewhat in order to do so, but this is another situation where you're just riding out an all-in. 17 minute broodlords can be just as game-winning as 15-minute broodlords.
I do the hydra thing sometimes. With good creepspread you can chase his retreat and kill lots of stuff.
By the moment he see's your hydras, stop making them after about 12 and start making corruptors and teching into broods (skipping infestors), and lings as the mineral dump. Overdoing the corruptors will let you kill the collosus really fast so your hydras can still pay off.
Hydra broodlord is very cool. Maybe not as good as infestor brood, but pretty damn cool.
On November 21 2012 16:25 Defenestrator wrote: I've been refining the "reactionary hydra" idea further, and I tested with my masters toss friend on the retreat option. A typical criticism of going hydra is that he can just retreat and go colossi. However, colossi take SO long to get that you can easily transition to corruptor and max out in time, while droning and getting to 6 gas (if he goes to 2base). Here is an example:
http://drop.sc/277488 - He sees my hydra/ling army and retreats. I immediately drone and scout him. When I see the robo bay, I drop a spire and max out on roach. He pushes with 3 colossi and I crush it pretty easily. He ends up basically basetrading with me because I handle his warp prism harass really poorly, but I'm so flushed with cash that I max out and have to build a ton of spines to free up supply for corruptors. I engage horribly, especially when attacking into him, and nearly ignore his harass, don't get infestors or tech to hive, but I win because I'm miles ahead.
If he goes to 3base, it's like the game resets where you have 55 to 45 workers and slightly more tech with equal armies.
Does anyone have any response to this idea? Haven't gotten any replies, so I'm thinking of starting its own thread, though I think it belongs here =P
Dude I want the hydra idea to be good but all this game proves is that if you catch the toss player afk in the middle of the map you can kill him. I don't want to be harsh but real talk, the dude rolled out with 170 food before his third colossus and +2 weapons were done, a-moved into a spine wall + maxed army, totally didn't forcefield at all despite having 8 full energy sentries, didn't even react to corruptors targetting down his colossi, and took a ton of free damage trying to just walk back to base in the meantime. There's no way this is a serious example.
The hydra idea, I don't know. May work in some games and not work in others, one thing I can think as a protoss player is that if I see the zerg has gone for hydras I don't retreat and switch colossi, I just push as hard as I can and warp in zealots + additional sentris as needed. One thing to say about hydras, tho: if you can use them, even at the cost of wasting some, to snipe the warp prism (by setting up a flank or whatever), then they can be well worth it. Without the prism it becomes increasingly difficult to keep those immortals alive (and granted, they are not the best vs hydras but they still are a heck of a lot of firepower investment in that push) and to keep the sentries alive too. Also, losing the prism means you will have to fall back to your pylons to warp in reinforcements.
On November 22 2012 06:01 jumai wrote: Dude I want the hydra idea to be good but all this game proves is that if you catch the toss player afk in the middle of the map you can kill him. I don't want to be harsh but real talk, the dude rolled out with 170 food before his third colossus and +2 weapons were done, a-moved into a spine wall + maxed army, totally didn't forcefield at all despite having 8 full energy sentries, didn't even react to corruptors targetting down his colossi, and took a ton of free damage trying to just walk back to base in the meantime. There's no way this is a serious example.
Yeah and I overmake roach, don't get infestors (which I think I had time for), don't flank, and have minimal micro. Honestly I think his control is slightly better than mine overall.
Also he wasn't AFK'ing, he was dropping and doing a lot of damage. The big takeaway from the replay (to me) is the state of the game after he retreats. I'm about equal/slightly ahead in tech, equal/slightly ahead in army (for the time being), and waaay ahead in eco. There's no way that a Z should lose in that position with correct play.
And as for attacking in to a spine wall, what was he supposed to do? The more he delays the more chance I have to spine up and get a better army. The main argument for retreating and going to colossi is that the Z would be vulnerable because he has hydra/ling, but there's just so much of a delay off of 2-base to colossi that this hardly matters.
On November 22 2012 06:25 RehnFreemark wrote: The hydra idea, I don't know. May work in some games and not work in others, one thing I can think as a protoss player is that if I see the zerg has gone for hydras I don't retreat and switch colossi, I just push as hard as I can and warp in zealots + additional sentris as needed.
I definitely agree with this; this is a much better option. I think the fight favors the Z player, but the P player can still win with good engage/forcefield and if Z screws up slightly (see the replay of me losing on Ohana above). If the Z engages correctly though I think he has a much better chance of holding.
On November 22 2012 06:25 RehnFreemark wrote: One thing to say about hydras, tho: if you can use them, even at the cost of wasting some, to snipe the warp prism (by setting up a flank or whatever), then they can be well worth it. Without the prism it becomes increasingly difficult to keep those immortals alive (and granted, they are not the best vs hydras but they still are a heck of a lot of firepower investment in that push) and to keep the sentries alive too. Also, losing the prism means you will have to fall back to your pylons to warp in reinforcements.
Yup. If you watch the replays, I generally snipe the warp prism with no micro. Toss has to pay some attention to keep the warp prism alive in the first place.
Do you guys think the range upgrade for hydras is worth if you are trying to hold with hydra? Range is great but it's so expensive considering you'd only build like 12 or so
On November 22 2012 09:30 Zrana wrote: Do you guys think the range upgrade for hydras is worth if you are trying to hold with hydra? Range is great but it's so expensive considering you'd only build like 12 or so
I don't think range is worth it for holding the push; it's 150/150, and it will hit in the middle of the engagement anyway with the build above (80s research time). I would rather have more units upfront with that money (3 gas worth of hydra), and I don't think it's worth getting before he moves out since you don't want to pour resources into an upgrade for a unit you're not going to use.
However, if he retreats and you're left with 6+ hydra, I think range is a worthy investment since it will come in time for your next engagement and make your hydras a lot more effective.
It's not imbalanced when one of the best Protoss players in the world uses perfect micro, macro, and decision making and is able to beat a foreigner who hasn't even qualified ever for the GSL. Also any Zerg nerfs don't affect this all in in the slightest...infestors aren't in time anyway. A nerf that would affect this is "Roach range decreased to -1" or something else retarded
I believe infestor changes are also so that lategame is fixed (to some extent; I personally think that invincible mothership, DT, and WP is a little much but this isn't balance discussion thread).
Watch defenestrator's replays, hydra looks damn solid. Even without range, the fact that you can stand toe-to-toe with any kind of sentry-immortal push is really promising. Add in the fact that your build gets 1-1 lings, and you have the staying power and consistency needed to properly claim that you have a solution.
The one qualm I have--and it's kind of a big one--is that your buddy warps pure stalker, even after engaging and seeing nearly all hydra-ling. I seriously question that decision, though maybe some of our toss buddies (especially the ones in blue) can enlighten me. My understanding is that zealots+FF is way more threatening to hydras than stalker+FF, and ensures that you don't need as many FF to defend your sentry-immortal core against lings anyway. Perhaps you have enough to hold, I wouldn't be surprised if you held with decent micro against pure zealot warp-ins, but I think it's worth mentioning. Also, I think that had he not botched the FF on Cloud game 2 (replay ending **67, i think?), he would've taken out the hatch and been able to eventually push in.
Based on the Ohana game you win, I am fairly convinced that you do have time for spire tech. The Daybreak game is also a good example. You're definitely spot on in saying that you have time to get the spire and get corruptors in time for the push.
Props for mentioning the drone pull from the 3rd base, it is an awesome move to pull out and seems to work wonders, and in this type of defense is definitely something you want to do as something more than last ditch (because last ditch is too late). An awesome extra option that moves ling-hydra from pretty solid to damn solid. Just want to note for readers that you really do need to drone back up and replace the drones you lose in the pull, both sen and defenestrator drop to mid-high 30s when they use the drone pull to mop up.
So yeah, my verdict is that ling-hydra (with 1-1 lings, or at least 0-1, and rangeless hydra) looks like a solid option, pending some fight data on zealot-heavy variants of the push. Thanks for sharing.
p.s. Anyone who has further qualms, note that kcdc kind of supports ling-hydra as the proper defense as well. Taken together, that's more than enough for me to start working on ling-hydra myself.
6xFPCs, with respect to zeal/sentry/immo, this replay is from the first post I had on this topic (not sure if you saw it): http://drop.sc/270235
For some reason this was one of my easier games; he opens with mostly zeal/sentry then switches to stalkers for reinforce. Personally I don't think zeal warpins instead of stalkers would make that big of a difference as long as lings are alive to tank, and the +1 carapace helps a lot in this regard. The other main thing though is that stalker/sentry synergize well together, while FF's will do very little for zeals when fighting hydra/ling (hydras will always be in range of zealots pretty much). Still I'll see if I can test this out.
I am not really sure if it is at all feasible but has anyone explored using an overseer to contaminate the robo? could be usefull if it is possible to fit it in.
On November 24 2012 07:27 Startyr wrote: I am not really sure if it is at all feasible but has anyone explored using an overseer to contaminate the robo? could be usefull if it is possible to fit it in.
Considering that your lair finishes after his final immortal is done, seems kind of not important
Mass changeling would be a better use of resources IMO
I think nerchio showed the best way to defend this all in today, that is mass some early lings to buy time to get infestors out. Infestors behind spines with ling support pretty much destory this all in
On November 24 2012 09:09 syriuszonito wrote: I thing nerchio showed the best way to defend this all in today, that is mass some early lings to buy time to get infestors out. Infestors behind spines with ling support pretty much destory this all in
that would probably work until blizzard buff sentries to be immune to fungal lulz
On November 24 2012 09:09 syriuszonito wrote: I thing nerchio showed the best way to defend this all in today, that is mass some early lings to buy time to get infestors out. Infestors behind spines with ling support pretty much destory this all in
This was pretty awesome to watch. Nerchio and Fraer both played this out really nicely; however the skill required to pull this off seems pretty damned high. Nerchio had to have really good ling control while not missing a beat with getting infestors out in time.
On November 24 2012 09:09 syriuszonito wrote: I thing nerchio showed the best way to defend this all in today, that is mass some early lings to buy time to get infestors out. Infestors behind spines with ling support pretty much destory this all in
that would probably work until blizzard buff sentries to be immune to fungal lulz
hah!
I'm not against using hydras to beat this all in. It would be nice if they made hydra speed lairtech, but this is TL::Sc2Strategy not bnet forums so not really the place to discuss HOTS.
How successful have hydras been if he turns around, turtles behind colo/sentry, and pushes with 4-5 colossi and just hits a stronger pre-hive timing than usual?
I'm a mid master European zerg who recently tried fast infestors and spines: it works sometimes. I usually try Nestea base trade with muta & 1-1 lings. If u have a good macro and manage to spawn 15 mutas or so, the base trade is yours. I want to try ling-roach and bane drop. The protoss army needs to be delayed by lings till minute 11 or so in order to have 1-1 and bane drop. It goes without saying: requires a hell of a micro. PS: can anybody provide an URL where Nerchio stops the all in? Thanks!
I don't think the vods are up yet, you should keep an eye for Nerchio vs Fraer in the current Dreamhack. The game itself is only worth mentioning until Fraer decides to put the third down, it should give zergs some good ideas, although I think Fraer made the mistake of lingering on too long with his army (and possibly wasting way too many force field at the first engagement). All in all though, I personally consider Nerchio's response the best one, trying to slow the all in as much as possible by sending units along the way and threatening with an immediate base race (if you go for a base race while the protoss in already is in your base, he's going to win it; if you go for a base race while the protoss is barely outside of his own, and has to walk across nearly most of the map to get to kill you, he's probably going to lose it and will feel forced to back off and defend. This is what prompted Fraer to basically forfeit his all in even tho he had a strongly superior army - even when infestors came out).
I actually think that a superior player could figure out the proper amount of units to keep the protoss contained while still droning up as much as possible (without going straight into infestor tech). If it works, it could force the protoss to do what Fraer did -> feeling the all in is wasted and trying to get back into a macro game by placing a third, but by then you would have a commanding economic lead. The risk is of course he doesn't take the bait and just goes straight into the all in anyway, there you'd probably have to actually base race him, but you may have the ability to use all your extra drones into a very thick spine wall
On November 24 2012 09:09 syriuszonito wrote: I thing nerchio showed the best way to defend this all in today, that is mass some early lings to buy time to get infestors out. Infestors behind spines with ling support pretty much destory this all in
that would probably work until blizzard buff sentries to be immune to fungal lulz
hah!
I'm not against using hydras to beat this all in. It would be nice if they made hydra speed lairtech, but this is TL::Sc2Strategy not bnet forums so not really the place to discuss HOTS.
How successful have hydras been if he turns around, turtles behind colo/sentry, and pushes with 4-5 colossi and just hits a stronger pre-hive timing than usual?
FWIW, the proposed change that would make sentries immune to fungal is intended for WoL. That said, it'd be a pretty dumb patch, so I doubt it will actually be implemented.
Well, nerchio tried ling infestor spines (not blind) against immortal sentry all in at IPL5 against naniwa... it didnt work. Protoss still destroys everything. Nerchio picked ohana as the last map of the bo3. He probably thought he naniwa would go immo sentry and he would counter it. But he failed, naniwa just built zealots sentries immortals and nerchio was not able to block it. I think hydras are the best choice we can do guys.
Stephanos +1/+1 melee upgrades with late lair proved to be pretty bad against this all in as well at IPL. Still haven't seen anyone defeat it if the protoss doesn't fuck up forcefields.
On November 30 2012 20:08 Insoleet wrote: Well, nerchio tried ling infestor spines (not blind) against immortal sentry all in at IPL5 against naniwa... it didnt work. Protoss still destroys everything. Nerchio picked ohana as the last map of the bo3. He probably thought he naniwa would go immo sentry and he would counter it. But he failed, naniwa just built zealots sentries immortals and nerchio was not able to block it. I think hydras are the best choice we can do guys.
nerchio used exactly the same response as he used against Fraer on cloud kingdom at dreamhack.
against fraer, he attacked with speedlings as soon as fraer moved out, delaying the push enough for infestors.
Against naniwa, his speed was still about 10 seconds from complete when naniwa moved out so he couldn't engage, and once naniwa was at the watchtower he was able to move across the map. he didnt' get delayed nearly as much as fraer. as a result the infestors were not even close to complete.
I don't know what accounted for the difference in ling speed timing, but it seemed like naniwa just had more balls than fraer (or more confidence in his own forcefields) and pushed aggressively despite the lings, instead of waiting for more units.
On November 30 2012 20:08 Insoleet wrote: Well, nerchio tried ling infestor spines (not blind) against immortal sentry all in at IPL5 against naniwa... it didnt work. Protoss still destroys everything. Nerchio picked ohana as the last map of the bo3. He probably thought he naniwa would go immo sentry and he would counter it. But he failed, naniwa just built zealots sentries immortals and nerchio was not able to block it. I think hydras are the best choice we can do guys.
nerchio used exactly the same response as he used against Fraer on cloud kingdom at dreamhack.
against fraer, he attacked with speedlings as soon as fraer moved out, delaying the push enough for infestors.
Against naniwa, his speed was still about 10 seconds from complete when naniwa moved out so he couldn't engage, and once naniwa was at the watchtower he was able to move across the map. he didnt' get delayed nearly as much as fraer. as a result the infestors were not even close to complete.
I don't know what accounted for the difference in ling speed timing, but it seemed like naniwa just had more balls than fraer (or more confidence in his own forcefields) and pushed aggressively despite the lings, instead of waiting for more units.
Yeah everything felt off for Nerchio this game. In addition to late speed, he just didn't have a lot of speedlings when Naniwa moved out, which you need to bait FF's. Overall he just seemed to not play as well this game (though I didn't see the relative moveout times of Naniwa vs Fraer, though I would imagine it should be pretty much at the same time).
I'm having big successes with hydras lings (and roaches then) against this all in actually. (like 9 win out of 9 immortal all ins... since i use hydras. before, it was 0 win out of 9 immo all ins :D)
On December 04 2012 00:39 b0ub0u wrote: Anyone having success stopping this push with pure lings? This get you infestor faster.
I was told it can be done but I am unable to do it.
It's definitely doable (that's how I deal with it against master protosses, and it works very well). But you have to take lair before any upgrades bar metabolic boost, you absolutely need a macro hatch, and the key for this to work is spines, a lot of them. Lings alone don't cut it to hold until infestors. Ff you can sneak in +1 carapace just after lair it should finish during the battles and helps a lot.
Hydras into corrupters work pretty well for me. The argument that protoss can just retreat, take a third and counter hydras with colossi is not really practical.
1. If protoss is really doing a sentry/immortal push, and not a sentry/immortal expand, he will be making 3 immortals - warp prism - observer in that order, which means he will not be able to scout the hydra tech until the first battle on the zerg side of the map. Before he sees hydras, protoss will not be taking a third nexus or making a robo bay or building more probes, because he is spending resources on warp-ins as he moves across the map. To react after seeing hydras is a complete overhaul of the protoss strategy, and not as easy as some people are suggesting.
2. The transition after hydra is not extremely hard for zerg. To build a reactive robo bay takes 65 seconds, plus another 100 seconds (assuming non stop chrono boosts) to get 2 colossi out with thermal lance upgrade, for a total of 165 seconds. It takes 100 seconds for zerg to make a spire after protoss retreats, plus 35 seconds for corrupters for a total of 135 seconds. The counter push with 3 colossi on 3 base is still very strong but no where near the level of a 3 base colossi timing from a sentry/immortal expand build, and certainly not an auto win because zerg made some hydras early on.
I will say that I've lost quite a few games when I tried to transition into ling/infestors after protoss retreats, the late infestors don't have as much energy as they would if I didn't go hydras, and not having corrupters out in time to deal with the colossi push is quite difficult. I suggest getting corrupters before infestors if you are going for a hydra defense to deal with this all-in.
3. Often times protoss will engage anyway, and while hydra/ling won't give you an auto win, it is infinitely superior compared to a roach/ling defense. If protoss loses too much, zerg has the option of making a huge round of roaches and cancel the protoss third with roach hydra before the colossi comes out.
On December 04 2012 04:58 w3jjjj wrote: I will say that I've lost quite a few games when I tried to transition into ling/infestors after protoss retreats, the late infestors don't have as much energy as they would if I didn't go hydras, and not having corrupters out in time to deal with the colossi push is quite difficult. I suggest getting corrupters before infestors if you are going for a hydra defense to deal with this all-in.
Pretty much agree with what you said (I think I've made many of the same points before =)), but I wanted to add that I don't see how a roach/ling defense is any different from a hydra/ling defense when the opponent retreats with one exception: prevention of the 3rd/harassing or killing the retreat is easier with roach/ling due to their speed. You see this so rarely however that I don't know how feasible it is one way or another; it depends on the unit counts and forcefields, I suppose.
As far as the transition goes however, if you're going for a roach/ling defense (which is much more difficult than a hydra/ling defense) then you're probably not getting an infestation pit anyway since you're spending all your money on units, so the timing on the tech transition is pretty much the same.
On December 04 2012 06:13 Defenestrator wrote: Pretty much agree with what you said (I think I've made many of the same points before =)), but I wanted to add that I don't see how a roach/ling defense is any different from a hydra/ling defense when the opponent retreats with one exception: prevention of the 3rd/harassing or killing the retreat is easier with roach/ling due to their speed. You see this so rarely however that I don't know how feasible it is one way or another; it depends on the unit counts and forcefields, I suppose.
Simple, with roach/ling, your opponent wouldn't retreat, talking about killing the retreat with roach/ling assumes something that doesn't happen. The whole point of this threat is due to the difficulty of defending with roach/ling, why else are we talking about hydras.
On December 04 2012 06:13 Defenestrator wrote: Pretty much agree with what you said (I think I've made many of the same points before =)), but I wanted to add that I don't see how a roach/ling defense is any different from a hydra/ling defense when the opponent retreats with one exception: prevention of the 3rd/harassing or killing the retreat is easier with roach/ling due to their speed. You see this so rarely however that I don't know how feasible it is one way or another; it depends on the unit counts and forcefields, I suppose.
Simple, with roach/ling, your opponent wouldn't retreat, talking about killing the retreat with roach/ling assumes something that doesn't happen. The whole point of this threat is due to the difficulty of defending with roach/ling, why else are we talking about hydras.
Yes of course, but as you said a criticism of defending with roach/ling vs defending with hydras is that if they see hydras and retreat, then supposedly you're behind than if you just went roach/ling. I'm just saying that your tech at this point is no different anyway, so it doesn't really matter (as long as you didn't overbuild hydras).
I just posted about this in another thread, but it probably fits better here:
Honestly, I've found that the best way to hold this push on Ohana involves Nydus. If you scout it or know it is coming, throw down a Nydus ASAP and use it to basetrade. Pull drones from the third to the main and spine at the top of the ramp. This way you can bring your amy back for the most part when they try to push the top of your ramp and you can hold your main while wiping out their bases entirely.
http://drop.sc/282818 - this is a replay where the toss tries to bust the main ramp after the nydus.
Obviously the execution isn't Parting level, either from them or me (I'm merely a mid-high masters player), but the idea is there and seems pretty solid.
ive beaten up to 1100 master toss with just mass 2-2 zergling baneling without drop into muta. I win most zvp's especially against immortal sentry. just take a little bit earlier gasses and you can but not nescessarily delay your third. If protoss tries to take third just kill him if you see any hole. Ofc attack from multiple angles and bait ff's and stuff.
On December 10 2012 04:52 mumming wrote: ive beaten up to 1100 master toss with just mass 2-2 zergling baneling without drop into muta. I win most zvp's especially against immortal sentry. just take a little bit earlier gasses and you can but not nescessarily delay your third. If protoss tries to take third just kill him if you see any hole. Ofc attack from multiple angles and bait ff's and stuff.
On December 10 2012 04:52 mumming wrote: ive beaten up to 1100 master toss with just mass 2-2 zergling baneling without drop into muta. I win most zvp's especially against immortal sentry. just take a little bit earlier gasses and you can but not nescessarily delay your third. If protoss tries to take third just kill him if you see any hole. Ofc attack from multiple angles and bait ff's and stuff.
Replays?
Sounds like it could work, but I imagine you have to be super-active with your lings. I'll second the request for replays and a build =P
On December 10 2012 04:52 mumming wrote: ive beaten up to 1100 master toss with just mass 2-2 zergling baneling without drop into muta. I win most zvp's especially against immortal sentry. just take a little bit earlier gasses and you can but not nescessarily delay your third. If protoss tries to take third just kill him if you see any hole. Ofc attack from multiple angles and bait ff's and stuff.
The upgrades might not be viable, but the idea of mass lings to stop the push certainly is. The problem with this style is that if they just go for the immo/sentry expand off like 5 gates into 12:30 timing push, your forces pretty much just melt. Its not always readily apparent by even a double overlord scout if they're going for this or not vs the 7 gate all-in version.
Earlier lings in mass at the front of their natural plain old stops immo/sentry cold. They will use the first warp-in as all-zealots and all you have to do is just wait 'till they move out and keep forcing them to use ffs before their second warp-in completes. If you do it right, you should be able to get 2 full rounds of ffs out of their sentries before they have enough to really threaten your lings. Then you just pull back to the second open engagement site (most of them have at least 2 main areas you can engage in between yours and his natural chokes) and do the same thing. You can get their sentries to be completely empty before they even make it over to you. I like to use 3-way surrounds and 3 control groups of army for keeping them all timed correctly, but I've seen it done with just simple mouse selection timing (its much more difficult to get this down though).
If you can macro like HyuN, all you have to do is get macro hatch and 70 supply by 7:15 and double evos going down at 6:40 or so. You'll have enough gas even with normal 2 gas at 6:00 and 1 gas at 7:00 for the double ups.
Ever since I started making that first pack of lings pop around 8:10 with speed and 1/1, I haven't had much if any trouble with immo/sentry all-ins and I can put a lot of pressure on the Protoss third if they try the immo/sentry expand (completely denying it or even killing them if they don't defend properly).
On December 10 2012 04:52 mumming wrote: ive beaten up to 1100 master toss with just mass 2-2 zergling baneling without drop into muta. I win most zvp's especially against immortal sentry. just take a little bit earlier gasses and you can but not nescessarily delay your third. If protoss tries to take third just kill him if you see any hole. Ofc attack from multiple angles and bait ff's and stuff.
just how late are these protosses attacking you? there should be no way you could have 2-2 even close to being done for this attack. even if you went for 2-2 off two base with fast gases it's impossible. you'd have to be starting 1-1 upgrades at around 4:00 ..who has 250/250 at 4 minutes? then 2-2 costs 400/400 and you need to have that money + lair ready as soon as your upgrades finish..all this with not necessarily delaying your 3rd? are you even talking about the same immortal-sentry allin?
as for the post above me..this thread's about the all-in... not the expanding to a 3rd build.
Though 2/2 is not realistic against a decent toss, 1-1 is possible, given a few extra seconds. I've seen it a couple times on pro matches - but it's still hazardous as hell.
On December 11 2012 00:32 hfsrj wrote: Though 2/2 is not realistic against a decent toss, 1-1 is possible, given a few extra seconds. I've seen it a couple times on pro matches - but it's still hazardous as hell.
There's really no reason to take such a risk just for 1/1. I mean off 3 base you can just rely on mass anything to stop their mass anything for the most part. I still greatly recommend the earlier ling pack. If you're good, 70 or greater supply by 7:15 is perfectly do-able and would let you get full 3 base saturation, all tech started (lair, evos, etc) and a lot of lings around 7:50-8:00 in plenty of time to poke around and stop them from the moment they try to step out of their base.
I'll try to get my practice buddies to play me so I can showcase this particular timing vs GM level and pro players.
Many pro Z's try to delay roaches/roach upgrades and get 1/1 in time for the push, getting two evos instead of one. That idea is definitely pretty cool and it's worked very well in pro games.
I don't think you should go for 2/2 if the Protoss is 2basing though (not sure how the timings work out), and i also don't think banelings without drop do much against 10+ sentries.
On December 11 2012 01:02 Teoita wrote: Many pro Z's try to delay roaches/roach upgrades and get 1/1 in time for the push, getting two evos instead of one. That idea is definitely pretty cool and it's worked very well in pro games.
I don't think you should go for 2/2 if the Protoss is 2basing though (not sure how the timings work out), and i also don't think banelings without drop do much against 10+ sentries.
The difference is that pure ling styles are actually pretty challenging to pull off just because of how active you have to be with them. Pros might be able to do this, but at lower levels I'd look for a less multi-intensive solution the more common gamer might find easier to pull off. That being said, I love pure ling styles and actively advocate delaying roach production when you suspect immo/sentry composition just because of how quickly you can snatch map control until their push timing. I do however keep a warren built at the regular time just in case they decide to do some weird cancellation mind games so I can easily get back to "normal" composition for the midgame.
However, I've noticed at the GM level that Protoss are able to make really good ffs so that there's 1 tiny hole that lings can come through. They simply reinforce with pure zealot to stop my lings and create ff sim city with enough of a leak they can really slaughter lings. Then they just move the ff wall so that 1 edge of my third hatchery is within the boundaries and then they retreat after killing it having secured a very big advantage.
They cannot do this if I have roaches because the roaches can hit the zealots clogging the 1 hole they purposely made. If I go pure ling, they often switched up their ff formations and I found myself at a great disadvantage with tons of +2 zealots pouring in behind a massive ff wall and 3 immortals pounding away in the back. Just having the warren at least gives me the opportunity to create some sort of counter-tech to what I've been leading them to believe they need to create.
On another note, basically if you're doing banes without drop, you're relying on the P making a mistake by him not hitting f fast enough imo. I don't see any other way to make un-speed-upgraded banes connect well other than hoping "plz don't be paying attention right now".
On December 11 2012 01:02 Teoita wrote: Many pro Z's try to delay roaches/roach upgrades and get 1/1 in time for the push, getting two evos instead of one. That idea is definitely pretty cool and it's worked very well in pro games.
I don't think you should go for 2/2 if the Protoss is 2basing though (not sure how the timings work out), and i also don't think banelings without drop do much against 10+ sentries.
This would seem like a great idea if 1/1 finished in time for you to engage him in the middle of the map, but I've only ever seen it complete when the P is already in your 3rd, so there's no surface area. you'd have to take some pretty early gas... does it essentially become a 2 base opening?
On December 11 2012 01:02 Teoita wrote: Many pro Z's try to delay roaches/roach upgrades and get 1/1 in time for the push, getting two evos instead of one. That idea is definitely pretty cool and it's worked very well in pro games.
I don't think you should go for 2/2 if the Protoss is 2basing though (not sure how the timings work out), and i also don't think banelings without drop do much against 10+ sentries.
This would seem like a great idea if 1/1 finished in time for you to engage him in the middle of the map, but I've only ever seen it complete when the P is already in your 3rd, so there's no surface area. you'd have to take some pretty early gas... does it essentially become a 2 base opening?
If i remember correctly, yeah you have to stall in the middle of the map for a while as 1/1 can finish at like 10:30 off a reasonable evo chamber timing and immortal all-ins that don't get delayed can hit faster, so ideally you could defend the 3rd.
Sorry if i don't have any pro evidence to back this up
Someone gosu told me he doesn't have a hard time holding off this attack as long as he doesn't slip up his macro, with the build he uses. He plays 'standard' 3 base roach/ling but he makes an adjustment I've hardly seen anyone else make..when he does not suspect a quick warpgate attack (watching forge/chronos, suiciding overlord, gas timings), instead of getting the roach warren/evo chamber/extra gases at the usual timings, he adds another hatch in his main instead, then gets all of those afterwards. Then Lair, ling speed, melee attack upgrade, roach speed. Also gets a 4th queen I think a bit early to get some creep spread which helps a lot, set up flanks on the largest areas near the 3rd/nat.
I haven't had a chance yet to try this out but it sounds like it might make all the difference in stopping this, and I trust he knows what he's doing. Usually with most normal macro hatch timings, it doesn't quite kick in with boosting your larva in time for the key moment of holding this attack.
You've just got to be right that he doesn't go for a quick attack or you're going to be dead with such a late roach warren.
On December 11 2012 01:02 Teoita wrote: Many pro Z's try to delay roaches/roach upgrades and get 1/1 in time for the push, getting two evos instead of one. That idea is definitely pretty cool and it's worked very well in pro games.
I don't think you should go for 2/2 if the Protoss is 2basing though (not sure how the timings work out), and i also don't think banelings without drop do much against 10+ sentries.
This would seem like a great idea if 1/1 finished in time for you to engage him in the middle of the map, but I've only ever seen it complete when the P is already in your 3rd, so there's no surface area. you'd have to take some pretty early gas... does it essentially become a 2 base opening?
If i remember correctly, yeah you have to stall in the middle of the map for a while as 1/1 can finish at like 10:30 off a reasonable evo chamber timing and immortal all-ins that don't get delayed can hit faster, so ideally you could defend the 3rd.
Sorry if i don't have any pro evidence to back this up
It's not just stalling for 1/1, you have to keep him in the middle of the map. Even if you delay him enough that you have 1/1 by the time he gets to your base, you are still dead (sen).
I'm not sure you can stall him enough with only 0/0 lings, without losing too many of those lings.
Interesting point about the macro hatch timing. zelniq, is that macro hatch before ANY gas? or on 2 gas, before adding geysers 3-4
Ive had success with delaying with lings and Going for infestation pit right when my lair is done and taking 6 gases. I can delay long enough to get 4 infestors out and roach/ling. Only Diamond on KR tho.
On December 11 2012 10:33 Buffalo_ wrote: I've had success adding hydras with less roaches and more lings.
My only issue with using hydras to stop an immortal/sentry all in is that if you win the battle you can't counter. The hydras are too slow to move off creep. With the roaches, at least you can get speed upgrade and they can move out to deny a third. Hydras just sit in the base and take up supply. I guess you can spread creep to the fourth and use hydras as defense. Still this is more conservative than an aggressive play.
^ I don't agree with that at all. Toss will generally have so much shit out, and you won't have enough purely in roaches, that your 10-15 burrow roaches will get stomped (or less since you took the money to research burrow+burrow move, or just burrow maybe).
Not to mention that it definitely wont' be done in time. If you sacrifice roach speed, you might have it during mid-battle but the game should be decided already.
It's underused for a reason.
IMO Toss shouldn't even bother getting an observer, I always see them get it but if zerg goes burrow you wouldn't have to worry as Toss, and you just rally it out anyways if you do get one.
So has this been figured out yet, or is this thread just someone bringing up hydras/banelingbombs/burrow/infestors every other page like someone already has and shot down? I recall seeing a pro zerg hold it using roach/ling on daybreak (bad choice of map, bad ff) but it was still very cool.
On December 12 2012 04:44 Mavvie wrote: Paywall :Q
can someone tell me what happens in that game?
He basically defends exactly like you do, lol.
Roach/ling defense, mobs Parting with lings as he moves out, focus-fires sentries, etc. Personally I think Parting was slightly off this game compared to his normal self, but Sniper played it beautifully.
I've been using the build Suppy used against Parting but using Mutas instead of Infestors and it's been working nicely for me. Ling/Spine does a good job of slowing down the push in time for mutas to pop. Mutas can also completely destroy the fragile Protoss economy at this point while easily pulling back if needed to slow down the inevitable Protoss all-in.
If you manage to snipe the Warp Prism going Ling/Muta it's basically gg so oftentimes I'll keep my mutas at home and delay my harass for any opportunity to snipe the Prism. At that point they'll either try to run home and you can surround with ling/muta, they'll try to dive into your spines which is an insta-loss, or they'll try to bring a probe to plant a proxy pylon which delays the push even further.
This is Wongjin_sOs performed a 5 immortal/sentry all-in in 16:00 mark. Forgive my inexeperience, but this 5 immortal/sentry all-in looks quite new and powerful:
On December 12 2012 05:36 larse wrote: This is Wongjin_sOs performed a 5 immortal/sentry all-in in 16:00 mark. Forgive my inexeperience, but this 5 immortal/sentry all-in looks quite new and powerful:
VOD isn't accessible, but I can't imagine a 16:00 timing being anywhere close to as powerful as the normal immo/sentry timing. By 16:00 Z can have done so many things and have nearly any unit comp except for mass BL/infestor; this includes muta harass, drop play, ultra/bane/ling, max'd roach/ling/hydra/infestor, etc., etc.
On December 12 2012 05:36 larse wrote: This is Wongjin_sOs performed a 5 immortal/sentry all-in in 16:00 mark. Forgive my inexeperience, but this 5 immortal/sentry all-in looks quite new and powerful:
VOD isn't accessible, but I can't imagine a 16:00 timing being anywhere close to as powerful as the normal immo/sentry timing. By 16:00 Z can have done so many things and have nearly any unit comp except for mass BL/infestor; this includes muta harass, drop play, ultra/bane/ling, max'd roach/ling/hydra/infestor, etc., etc.
It was a 3 base pre-broodlord timing. whole different ballgame.
On December 12 2012 04:27 larse wrote: Sniper's perfect defense of Parting's 3 immortal/sentry all-in:
His other "perfect" defense against Seed didn't go so well, unfortunately. I felt like Parting warping in at the pylon away from his army (using prism for micro isntead of pylon) hurt him a bit, but really sniper just handled it immaculately.
I just wrote a guide designed to kill this nasty all-in. The build is from CyNStarbuck, currently #1 GM in Europe. It's a one-shot thing but I guess it could work on ladder and be used one time in a BOx. It's a muta rush with a spine wall at the nat and addition of mass queens to tank the immortal shots/transfuse each other. Mutas hit at 10:00.
On December 12 2012 05:36 larse wrote: This is Wongjin_sOs performed a 5 immortal/sentry all-in in 16:00 mark. Forgive my inexeperience, but this 5 immortal/sentry all-in looks quite new and powerful:
Its not new at all. This is actually pretty old and would've been "up-to-date" about 6+ months ago.
Its a simple pre-BL timing push involving mass immo/sentry with a buttload of blink stalkers and +3 atk upgrades. Its actually not a good push anymore though with builds like HyuN's out there that can just attack a protoss relentlessly every second after 12:30.
This immortal sentry play also gets blink and the immortals are delayed by observers. Its not a good example of how drop play could stop an immortal sentry all in.
Joking aside, its a lot like beating marine tank timings. All you need is a good engagement with multiple attack angles. Dont even bother with roaches. Mass lings, make him waste forcefields, buy time, and snipe pylons. Just run around and get flanks. And if he forcefields, just build more lings to compensate for the trapped ones. Another way to do this (my personal favorite): get fast infestor, and force him to make forcefields. When he FFs, lob tooons of IT over his FF, and he will pull back. It wont kill him if hes smart enough to run (it will if he doesnt), and it allows you to easily regain ground, and push back his warpin place.
as interesting as all of these are im sure, none of them are the immortal/sentry build we're talking about. with two exceptions i guess, the 2nd video (hyun vs oz 2)..except oz seemingly has only 2immortals there with sentries moving down his ramp..and he has them in some weird spread out line thats super easy to surround with lings and game ends immediately cus of that mistake. that's still interesting tho but it just sounds like an adjustment protosses need to start looking out for.
tlo's build is neat but his opponent forgot warpgate..for so long that he didn't notice until warpgate would normally be finished and he tried to morph them to warpgates. so he had no warpgates when tlo dropped lol.
oh and i dont have a gom sub so i cant see that sniper vs parting's 3 immortal sentry..im really curious as to the details as to how exactly parting lost..but it sounds like it could have been parting's mistake or not being prepared for early lings to attack as he moved out of his base with his only sentry/immortal army? maybe his units were kinda spread out in the open and then got surrounded?
oh and i dont have a gom sub so i cant see that sniper vs parting's 3 immortal sentry..im really curious as to the details as to how exactly parting lost..but it sounds like it could have been parting's mistake or not being prepared for early lings to attack as he moved out of his base with his only sentry/immortal army? maybe his units were kinda spread out in the open and then got surrounded?
Defenestrator said that he defended it with roach/ling, engaging right past Protoss's ramp, focusing sentries with the roaches and doing whatever he can with the lings (buffering mainly, and weakening sentries). Whenever I win with this it feels like Protoss's mistake, but it keeps working even against opponents who aren't half bad O.o Looks promising to me, no one's showed me a VOD where it didn't work
as interesting as all of these are im sure, none of them are the immortal/sentry build we're talking about. with two exceptions i guess, the 2nd video (hyun vs oz 2)..except oz seemingly has only 2immortals there with sentries moving down his ramp..and he has them in some weird spread out line thats super easy to surround with lings and game ends immediately cus of that mistake. that's still interesting tho but it just sounds like an adjustment protosses need to start looking out for.
tlo's build is neat but his opponent forgot warpgate..for so long that he didn't notice until warpgate would normally be finished and he tried to morph them to warpgates. so he had no warpgates when tlo dropped lol.
oh and i dont have a gom sub so i cant see that sniper vs parting's 3 immortal sentry..im really curious as to the details as to how exactly parting lost..but it sounds like it could have been parting's mistake or not being prepared for early lings to attack as he moved out of his base with his only sentry/immortal army? maybe his units were kinda spread out in the open and then got surrounded?
Sure. I am going to find a free VOD of that match for you.
But what's the difference of those immortal/sentry all-ins and yours?
^Pretty sure he means they aren't Parting's pre-9:00 3 immortal 7 sentry timing push. They're some other push involving sentries and immortals. Idk, just watching those VODs now.
as interesting as all of these are im sure, none of them are the immortal/sentry build we're talking about. with two exceptions i guess, the 2nd video (hyun vs oz 2)..except oz seemingly has only 2immortals there with sentries moving down his ramp..and he has them in some weird spread out line thats super easy to surround with lings and game ends immediately cus of that mistake. that's still interesting tho but it just sounds like an adjustment protosses need to start looking out for.
tlo's build is neat but his opponent forgot warpgate..for so long that he didn't notice until warpgate would normally be finished and he tried to morph them to warpgates. so he had no warpgates when tlo dropped lol.
oh and i dont have a gom sub so i cant see that sniper vs parting's 3 immortal sentry..im really curious as to the details as to how exactly parting lost..but it sounds like it could have been parting's mistake or not being prepared for early lings to attack as he moved out of his base with his only sentry/immortal army? maybe his units were kinda spread out in the open and then got surrounded?
Here's what Sniper did:
Daybreak, Hatch 1st, 3 min 3rd. Droned up to 63, got a 7 min Roach Warren, 8 min macro Hatch, got +1 Carapace, didn't build any units until 8 minutes.
Tried to delay Parting, but wasn't able to kill anything or bait a lot of force fields. At 10:00 Parting was already at the choke at his 3rd. Flanked from behind, while attacking from the front. Parting crucially missed his 1st set of force fields and let some Zerglings and Roaches in, which took out a few Sentries.
Sniper also took out the reinforcement pylons, and Parting missed another set of forcefields as he was trying to prevent him from doing that and lost more Sentries. Once the Sentries were gone, Sniper eventually overwhelmed him.
Edit: At 10 minutes Sniper has: 21 Roaches, 28 Speedlings, +1 Carapace, 4 Queens, 63 Drones and a Spore Crawler in front of his 3rd, which forced Parting to pull the WP back a little until it was killed.
TL;DR basetrade with baneling bust, spines at home, focus cyber core then get mutas. It's completely reactionary and sounds fairly viable. Forces a 2 base vs 1 base where you have mutas so that's probably good for Zerg. Not quite sure about the timings but it seems promising! Unlike other baneling variations it doesn't rely on your opponent missing forcefields.
TL;DR basetrade with baneling bust, spines at home, focus cyber core then get mutas. It's completely reactionary and sounds fairly viable. Forces a 2 base vs 1 base where you have mutas so that's probably good for Zerg. Not quite sure about the timings but it seems promising! Unlike other baneling variations it doesn't rely on your opponent missing forcefields.
I was considering posting it on TL XD its really effective, and as I mentioned in the guide, undefeated as long as my macro as good ^.^
Figured I'd get a bit of hate considering my IGN is savior tho XD, having said that already getting hate in r/starcraft so I may aswell post it so more peopl see
^ well just because you haven't lost with it doesn't mean it's viable at higher levels. Like I've never lost to the all in with roach/ling, but pros never do it so obviously something makes it unviable. I'm not that sure about mutas. I don't think you can afford 50 lings + >10 banes at 9:00, a 10+ spine wall at 9:00, and mutas while making lings at home. I do like the idea of a bane bust counter. How about 30 lings and 6 banes? Does the same, but a much smaller investment. You may even be able to save the third! 3 base vs 1 = GG.
I think it's totally worth experimenting with, I like banelings
What do you mean getting hate because your name is saviour? :O
On December 12 2012 13:06 Mavvie wrote: ^ well just because you haven't lost with it doesn't mean it's viable at higher levels. Like I've never lost to the all in with roach/ling, but pros never do it so obviously something makes it unviable. I'm not that sure about mutas. I don't think you can afford 50 lings + >10 banes at 9:00, a 10+ spine wall at 9:00, and mutas while making lings at home. I do like the idea of a bane bust counter. How about 30 lings and 6 banes? Does the same, but a much smaller investment. You may even be able to save the third! 3 base vs 1 = GG.
I think it's totally worth experimenting with, I like banelings
What do you mean getting hate because your name is saviour? :O
that bw guy sAviOr, my name comes from the song by rise against tho, it's them being a bit pedantic really.
I still think that the idea of Nydus (after research, I see that TLO has done this as well) is itself underused. It allows you to pressure and basetrade while still defending your main base. It's been the most consistent defense for me (I'm currently 1K masters).
On November 15 2012 21:33 houstil wrote: I am no longer active on EU the server but a few weeks ago, when playing for my team I designed a macro oriented counter to the imo-sentry all-in.
We know that without tech (mutas, hydras or infester) it's very hard to fight the toss army head-on. But getting the tech quickly enough to defend this very early push require a big cut on economy (late third), which can be easily scouted and exploited by the Toss.
I used to do a roach/ling/hydra defense on 3 bases using standard stephano gas and tech timing but I only defended barely and I was in a bad position if the Toss just took a safe third defended by sentry/imo once he forced enough hydras and followed by a pre-hive colossus push. As soon as colossus hit the battleground, supply and resource tied in hydras become a huge liability.
Counter attacking seem to be the solution because the Toss usually just wall off and doesn't keep any defending army to make the strongest push possible. But with usual timings only a small roach/ling army can be at the Toss nat when the WonWonWon train as left the station. To get a really theatening roach/ling army at Toss door around 9min, you have to delay either eco (less saturation) or tech (later roach speed and infestors).
Considering all this I got my idea of a reactive eco ling-baneling counter bust. This a reactive build and it should be able to defend this all-in but also put the zerg player in a good position for a standard macro game.
The first phase of the build focus on maximizing the mineral input and drone production during the first 7min of the game. We want to get a 3 bases fully mineral saturated (48 drones) ASAP. Delaying gas until 6:30 and not building any creep tumor should allow you to reach full min saturation around 7:10 and stop producing drone at 7:30. 7:30 is the turning point when you should have identified the build 100%, but against quick gateway pressure, you have to adapt earlier (if no gas at nat and no third building at 6:45, emergency roach warren and 2 spine at the third plus a few zerglings should keep you safe).
When the standard 7min overlord sac has seen many sentry and a robo, the build is clearly identified. So the reaction is as follow : ling speed with the first 100 gas from 3 gas at 6:30 (ling speed will be ready around 9:10), and then baneling nest (begin ~7:30, finish ~8:30) and then lair. Regarding mineral allocation, when you reach 57 drones (3*16+3*3) you should build a macro hatch, a fourth extractor, 5 more drones and a fourth queen. Any mineral left go to zerglings (zerglings production begins around 7:30 to get 2 injects rounds-60lings at the Toss door at 9min).
We can't defend the third, but with a quick mineral saturation it will pay for itself. If the all-in is certain, you should begin spining up the nat at 8:30. As you plan to sac the third, just morph 8 drones from the third to the nat. The 8 drones left will be transfered just before his army hit your third to make 4 additionnals spines (put the other on min). With the flood of 3 injected hatch building lings and 12 spines, you should have no problem defending your nat. You also have to be careful of your building placement : the macro hatch is safer in the the main, and don't build any extractor in the third before taking the first 4.
As soons as the baneling nest finish (8:30), you should have around 300 gas to build 12banes in a hidden position close to the Toss nat. This means that your counter attack will hit at 9:00, when the WonWonWon train is cruising in the midle of the map (according to Remarks guide). 10 banes is enough to destroy any wall (forge is 10 IIRC) so even if he left a single sentry at home you should make short work of the nat with zerglings amazing dps output, probes will fall to any baneling left.
Now your zerglings could get scouted and no doubt that he has enough sentry to defend if he decide not to push. In this situation we have a fall-back plan. At 9:10, your lair should finish and you should have just enough gas to build a spire. The threat of the counter attack and the army dance should buy enough time to have mutas before he can safely attack you or get his third. And from there the game is simple. You just have to threaten a ling/bane/muta counter attack while growing your econ advantage and teching. Given that you have 10+ spines already, any base race scenario is an autowin.
So here is the build order : Standard 3 hatch opening, don't build a third queen until the third hatch is built because you will need the extra min to spend it on the extra larvae given by not building a creep tumor, spend queen energy only on injects. 6:30 3 gas 7:00 send ov to scout and assert the WonWonWon build 7:20 ling speed, add an extractor 7:30 baneling nest, first round of lings stop drone production at 60 drones, add macro hatch, 4th queen 7:50 build lair in your main 8:00 2nd round of lings 8:30 build as many banes as you can in a hidden location don't be afraid to cancel if he chase your army, time is on your side. Spine up your nat, continue ling production if he is agressive. 9:00 destroy his naked nat if he pushed, ling speed will finish shortly 9:10 build a spire if he stayed defensive
Pros : - fully reactive build, doesn't sacrifice eco, slighly later tech but the first round of zerglings can delay Toss third for a long time to compensate. - no need to invest heavily in the defense before 8min (the 2nd round of lings). And if he doesn't look agressive, you don't have to morph banes. - a near bo win if he push and doesn't stop the counter attack, wich will often be the case on ladder given the surprise effect - no big tell until zergling production for the protoss to identify the BO - bo still very strong against stargate play (good eco, ling and banes to deny the third)
Cons : - weaker than standard build to +1 gateway pressure or just zealot/stalker harass (you have to be very active with the initial 4 lings to scout for that and be prepared in time) - if you fail to scout you can be caught with your pants down at a wrong timing (DT pressure, gateway all-in, zeal/archon all-in ...)
TLDR: Standard 3base late gas, 2 round of lings with speed and bane nest to treaten a timed ling/bane counter attack at 9 min, spine up the nat and sac the third if needed, buy some time for spire tech to punish heavy sentry and late third.
I don't have any valuable replay given that I don't play much ATM. But I think that given the current situation, any Zerg strugeling with the WonWonWon build should give this a try.
But sadly, I wasn't able to provide any replay and my post never gained much interest despite how much work I put into it. Hopefully there is now more people interested in a new approach and the build will be more experimented.
^ The main reason this never gained any momentum is simple. The bust doesn't work unless you're in low leagues. Gate walls and a few sentry warp-ins at home will completely stop you from being able to do anything. ParTinG really has this build refined for all possible avenues of zerg reactions.
As soons as the baneling nest finish (8:30), you should have around 300 gas to build 12banes in a hidden position close to the Toss nat. This means that your counter attack will hit at 9:00
Its this part that would need to change if you really wanted to try busting them, but you might as well go for Zenio's deceptive 3 hatch ling/bane bust build if you're going to do that.
Your post says the attack can be ready at 9:00. This is already too late. WG is done, 9 sentries, 1 zealot/stalker and 3 immortals move out even before 8:50 so literally your banes won't even be arriving before his masses of ffs are already there.
Basically what you're trying to do is the roach/ling concept but with bane/ling. People were experimenting with banes but without drop its really not effective past very low masters.
On December 13 2012 00:23 sCCrooked wrote: ^ The main reason this never gained any momentum is simple. The bust doesn't work unless you're in low leagues. Gate walls and a few sentry warp-ins at home will completely stop you from being able to do anything. ParTinG really has this build refined for all possible avenues of zerg reactions.
As soons as the baneling nest finish (8:30), you should have around 300 gas to build 12banes in a hidden position close to the Toss nat. This means that your counter attack will hit at 9:00
Its this part that would need to change if you really wanted to try busting them, but you might as well go for Zenio's deceptive 3 hatch ling/bane bust build if you're going to do that.
Your post says the attack can be ready at 9:00. This is already too late. WG is done, 9 sentries, 1 zealot/stalker and 3 immortals move out even before 8:50 so literally your banes won't even be arriving before his masses of ffs are already there.
Basically what you're trying to do is the roach/ling concept but with bane/ling. People were experimenting with banes but without drop its really not effective past very low masters.
How would he have sentries out in time to stop this if you bane bust him post-moveout?
On December 13 2012 00:23 sCCrooked wrote: ^ The main reason this never gained any momentum is simple. The bust doesn't work unless you're in low leagues. Gate walls and a few sentry warp-ins at home will completely stop you from being able to do anything. ParTinG really has this build refined for all possible avenues of zerg reactions.
As soons as the baneling nest finish (8:30), you should have around 300 gas to build 12banes in a hidden position close to the Toss nat. This means that your counter attack will hit at 9:00
Its this part that would need to change if you really wanted to try busting them, but you might as well go for Zenio's deceptive 3 hatch ling/bane bust build if you're going to do that.
Your post says the attack can be ready at 9:00. This is already too late. WG is done, 9 sentries, 1 zealot/stalker and 3 immortals move out even before 8:50 so literally your banes won't even be arriving before his masses of ffs are already there.
Basically what you're trying to do is the roach/ling concept but with bane/ling. People were experimenting with banes but without drop its really not effective past very low masters.
How would he have sentries out in time to stop this if you bane bust him post-moveout?
Even if you wait for him to move out, you'll be facing 2 walls. 1 at the natural and 1 at the ramp between the nat and main.
When you move out with immo/sentry its not like you stop mining gas or something so you'll eventually have the ability to warp in 1-2 sentries at home to hold that ramp should the bane/ling break the nat. I'll try to find some VODs of where ParTinG stops strong counter-attacks. Holding a ramp just isn't that hard. He stops roach/ling attacks which contain far more units because these players were just trying to base-trade.
I'm also a mid-masters P so I'll tell you from the P perspective that when you move out with the 3 immortals and 9+ sentries, your WG is done and you're supposed to warp in your first round about the same time the warp prism is pretty far along. That being said, that warp in is usually at your main base and you have them meet the other forces somewhere on their way across the map. So anything before 10:00 will almost assuredly face 7 units warping in back home. You'd have to be lucky he didn't see your lings or banes and played it really greedy. Its very common for a P to warp in 1 sentry to ff the ramp to give enough time to finish warping in other sentries to hold while you kill off Zerg's bases. You can't just assume that the P isn't going to warp-in units on time when you're considering a strategy like this.
Once you're in this scenario the only way for you to even stay alive is just to spine up your main and hope he can't break it, but it doesn't matter because P will overwhelm you very shortly with far superior tech and economy.
I'm a little confused about how to use lings to delay the push. If I'm able to mob him with 30-40 lings right as he moves out and he only has immortal/sentry, then it seems that I can bait some FF's, which is good.
However, after the first round of warpins (usually zealots), I'm not sure what to do. Usually I will engage, they will throw down no FF's, and I'll just lose all my lings and have to rely on my reinforcements back home to help out, having killed maybe 1 sentry. This seems like a really bad trade for me, but I'm not sure what to do with the lings. What is to prevent him in this situation from just moving across the map after the first warpin? Should I just add more lings to force FF's? I think the problem here is that +1 carapace is not done yet, and the +1 zeals tear the lings to shreds.
On December 13 2012 03:35 Defenestrator wrote: Crooked, thanks for the reply.
I'm a little confused about how to use lings to delay the push. If I'm able to mob him with 30-40 lings right as he moves out and he only has immortal/sentry, then it seems that I can bait some FF's, which is good.
However, after the first round of warpins (usually zealots), I'm not sure what to do. Usually I will engage, they will throw down no FF's, and I'll just lose all my lings and have to rely on my reinforcements back home to help out, having killed maybe 1 sentry. This seems like a really bad trade for me, but I'm not sure what to do with the lings. What is to prevent him in this situation from just moving across the map after the first warpin? Should I just add more lings to force FF's? I think the problem here is that +1 carapace is not done yet, and the +1 zeals tear the lings to shreds.
Not a problem. I'm still sifting through masses of youtube VODs trying to find the game I'm remembering xD
The truth is so far, there's a bunch of different ways to handle this, but it still requires SO MUCH more on our part than the P. Playing from both perspectives quite often, that's how I see this matchup (when both sides go for the builds we're discussing here).
What I've been doing lately is stopping at around 54-56 drones when my double overlord poke at 6:50 sees no extra gates, but a robo and spinning forge. I make a bunch of speedlings for the first round of larva that pops and the second set of larva I spend into roaches. Around that time, your lair should be either finished or finishing even if you delayed the tech a bit.
Make a creep highway so your roaches are more mobile and make your way to the middle of the map to engage again. You should also seperate a few roaches (5-6 will do) to go start breaking down his natural wall. If you're lucky, he'll be forced to warp units in back there to defend (1 cannon and pylons won't stop 6 roaches). Now you've split his reinforcements and have opened a timing window. Before he gets to your base, you should engage him 3 times. 1 time should be just as he moves out, 1 time should be somewhere in the middle but still "his" side of the map and the other should be somewhere in the middle but closer to your bases. If you engage 3 times properly with surrounds, you'll force him to use every FF he has.
This can discourage a lot of Ps and if they feel they won't be able to make it across with enough energy, I've even seen some fall back and just take a third which then puts us behind having stopped at 56 drones instead of the usual 64. Some P are really headstrong and just want to go kill you though. That's why the roach seperation really helps. If you see a stronger wall, of course you should allocate more forces. Maybe 8-10 if you see him pylon wall and add 1-2 cannons or something drastically defensive.
Now, this does 2 things. It forces the P to attack because now its all or nothing. You've effectively siphoned off a small force that's capable of bringing down the wall and even his natural if he doesn't warp units in back there. However if he does that, his main force receives no reinforcements while yours is being reinforced by 4 hatcheries being injected with larva.
However I've found this to be incredibly hard to pull off. A few previously-GM friends and myself have been trying to mass games to figure out an effective counter. So far there's lots of theories, but not anything with a really consistent result at the pro level. It seems we're still doomed to lose to this more than we win vs it :/
The viper in HOTS seems to do the trick. I just wish we had a better answer in WoL...
All my mech losses end up the same. I usually open ling muta with a safety roach warren, take out the Terrans 3rd and stop him from mining till the point he's mined out and secured the 3rd base with tanks + AA and I stop attacking. He splits the map and takes his 4th, he's still only on 2 bases but he usually has mass orbitals. Then I go for broods and get out 12-15 usually before the first big push. (Masters US)
Because Broods can't kite Thors at range and Thors can see high ground so sitting on hills make no difference, and Broods naturally clump up, my first 2 broods usually die to clumped Thors in 2 volleys. Once I lose my queens in this battle, I have no larvae production, but I'm broke due to the cost of Broods anyway.
Upgrades are a problem. Double spire is costly when you're rushing to hive with 0 gas remaining after spending some on roach speed, spire etc. And as I'm getting my Greater Spire, I can't upgrade... Mech players get double armories and start early, making out their numbers with easy to produce hellions that make good fodder all game long, as every Roach that's attacking a hellion during a fight nullifies the roach, while able to harass your expansions, countering mechs inabiliy. Forcing me to preemptively make 3 spines at every base to stop hellions from sitting in a safe spot behind my mineral line does just as much economic damage (300 mins + 3 drones).
On December 13 2012 09:23 DarKcS wrote: The viper in HOTS seems to do the trick. I just wish we had a better answer in WoL...
All my mech losses end up the same. I usually open ling muta with a safety roach warren, take out the Terrans 3rd and stop him from mining till the point he's mined out and secured the 3rd base with tanks + AA and I stop attacking. He splits the map and takes his 4th, he's still only on 2 bases but he usually has mass orbitals. Then I go for broods and get out 12-15 usually before the first big push. (Masters US)
Because Broods can't kite Thors at range and Thors can see high ground so sitting on hills make no difference, and Broods naturally clump up, my first 2 broods usually die to clumped Thors in 2 volleys. Once I lose my queens in this battle, I have no larvae production, but I'm broke due to the cost of Broods anyway.
Upgrades are a problem. Double spire is costly when you're rushing to hive with 0 gas remaining after spending some on roach speed, spire etc. And as I'm getting my Greater Spire, I can't upgrade... Mech players get double armories and start early, making out their numbers with easy to produce hellions that make good fodder all game long, as every Roach that's attacking a hellion during a fight nullifies the roach, while able to harass your expansions, countering mechs inabiliy. Forcing me to preemptively make 3 spines at every base to stop hellions from sitting in a safe spot behind my mineral line does just as much economic damage (300 mins + 3 drones).
Recently I had a little bit of an epiphany regarding parting's version of this all in. The only games where I've seen someone beat this with roach ling was sniper vs parting and life vs creator. I'm both these games sniper and life opened hatch first with a pre 4 min third. So my epiphany was that if Protoss hasn't probe scouted you by 2:00 (when you'd start your 15 pool), go hatch first instead. Then do the build that life did vs creator in the vod from the previous page. You can base trade or fight straight up, whichever you prefer.
If protoss probe scouts and then goes sentry immortal it is delayed by 10+ seconds which makes the push hit later than the 8:50 to 9:00 that is so scary. If he does probe scout holding it is hard but if you macro well it's definitely not impossible. However if he does go blind nexus first that's when it becomes very difficult to hold. However if you go for this hatch first play you speed up your build by 10+ seconds, putting you on an equal footing with the Protoss player. I think this will be the best way to hold the build combined with perhaps the 7:20 min macro hatchery.
Is it ok to do a 3 hatch opening, double gas, lair, ling speed and then spire against this? Will the mutas come out in time before the toss army reaches my base?
On December 13 2012 13:03 aLtNXZ wrote: Recently I had a little bit of an epiphany regarding parting's version of this all in. The only games where I've seen someone beat this with roach ling was sniper vs parting and life vs creator. I'm both these games sniper and life opened hatch first with a pre 4 min third. So my epiphany was that if Protoss hasn't probe scouted you by 2:00 (when you'd start your 15 pool), go hatch first instead. Then do the build that life did vs creator in the vod from the previous page. You can base trade or fight straight up, whichever you prefer.
If protoss probe scouts and then goes sentry immortal it is delayed by 10+ seconds which makes the push hit later than the 8:50 to 9:00 that is so scary. If he does probe scout holding it is hard but if you macro well it's definitely not impossible. However if he does go blind nexus first that's when it becomes very difficult to hold. However if you go for this hatch first play you speed up your build by 10+ seconds, putting you on an equal footing with the Protoss player. I think this will be the best way to hold the build combined with perhaps the 7:20 min macro hatchery.
Interesting insight =) Seems to make sense; it can be metagame'd, but I don't see anyone doing this nowadays.
Out of curiosity, why does no one try to get spine/roach/ling against this push? Is it because immos are so strong vs spines, or just because you're not sure which angle they will come from?
TL;DR basetrade with baneling bust, spines at home, focus cyber core then get mutas. It's completely reactionary and sounds fairly viable. Forces a 2 base vs 1 base where you have mutas so that's probably good for Zerg. Not quite sure about the timings but it seems promising! Unlike other baneling variations it doesn't rely on your opponent missing forcefields.
TL;DR basetrade with baneling bust, spines at home, focus cyber core then get mutas. It's completely reactionary and sounds fairly viable. Forces a 2 base vs 1 base where you have mutas so that's probably good for Zerg. Not quite sure about the timings but it seems promising! Unlike other baneling variations it doesn't rely on your opponent missing forcefields.
Why don't we see more base-trading?
Sentries mainly. The banelings will need to break through the front wall, the wall at the top of the ramp, and get through force fields in order to have a chance of winning. If you only destroy the natural, toss's army should get your nat and third and you are left one base vs one base, which tends to favor toss.
Base trading can work if you go muta's. You need to sacrifice some econ for a slightly earlier lair/spire but you essentially spine up your main, sac the natural/third. First muta's need to snipe the warp prism, then fly over and get your lings/blings into the opponents main by focusing down sentrys in their main. Once your lings are in their main and natural you should be good to win.
Protoss wins the base race by keeping lings out of the main. They can double wall the front with gateways (as they will see no real army fighting their army they should know it's coming) and more cannons, warp in sentrys top of the ramp, wall off ramp fully etc etc. They can also win if they still have the warp prism by giving their units high ground vision and destroying spines with immortals.
Why don't people spine their natural when basetrading? 1 base vs 1 base is bad, but 2 base vs 1 base is impossible to lose
It's like what blade did in the early days of sentry/immortal; baserace, spine natural, get infestors out eventually. 2 base vs 1 base favours you, and you buy time for infestors.
As blade and others have shown, I think base tradewith ling/roach was the answer up until summer/fall. However, Protoss players aren't dumb stale people, either. Over time, they have learned that walling the main ramp + a few emergency sentry warp-ins work very well vs base trading Zergs, securing at least 1 base + production. Not that base trade never works, but it is certainly harder to pull off now than, say, 3 months ago.
Jaedong had only 47 drones in order to have earlier units. One can argue that base trade with higher drone count could work better, but then it hits later and Protoss army is closer to your base as well. In this game, Parting didn't use gateways to wall the main ramp for some reason, so his usual gateway wall is even stronger than this example. I'm not an expert, but I feel the era for base trade has already ended due to better Protoss play. Not sure how non-ling/roach base trade works at top level, though.
TL;DR basetrade with baneling bust, spines at home, focus cyber core then get mutas. It's completely reactionary and sounds fairly viable. Forces a 2 base vs 1 base where you have mutas so that's probably good for Zerg. Not quite sure about the timings but it seems promising! Unlike other baneling variations it doesn't rely on your opponent missing forcefields.
Why don't we see more base-trading?
Sentries mainly. The banelings will need to break through the front wall, the wall at the top of the ramp, and get through force fields in order to have a chance of winning. If you only destroy the natural, toss's army should get your nat and third and you are left one base vs one base, which tends to favor toss.
Base trading can work if you go muta's. You need to sacrifice some econ for a slightly earlier lair/spire but you essentially spine up your main, sac the natural/third. First muta's need to snipe the warp prism, then fly over and get your lings/blings into the opponents main by focusing down sentrys in their main. Once your lings are in their main and natural you should be good to win.
Protoss wins the base race by keeping lings out of the main. They can double wall the front with gateways (as they will see no real army fighting their army they should know it's coming) and more cannons, warp in sentrys top of the ramp, wall off ramp fully etc etc. They can also win if they still have the warp prism by giving their units high ground vision and destroying spines with immortals.
why not get overlord pick-up and drop surprise UPS style
Overlord drop takes 2-3 mins extra to research, and it costs a lot of gas. It's allin from the moment you begin saving/teching, and it takes more time. That said, if you toss opponent hits later (12:00 vs 11:00etc) especially if you have 15~ lings harassing his nat early, you might be able to crush the first attack with baneling rain.
On December 14 2012 02:51 Orek wrote: As blade and others have shown, I think base tradewith ling/roach was the answer up until summer/fall. However, Protoss players aren't dumb stale people, either. Over time, they have learned that walling the main ramp + a few emergency sentry warp-ins work very well vs base trading Zergs, securing at least 1 base + production. Not that base trade never works, but it is certainly harder to pull off now than, say, 3 months ago.
Jaedong had only 47 drones in order to have earlier units. One can argue that base trade with higher drone count could work better, but then it hits later and Protoss army is closer to your base as well. In this game, Parting didn't use gateways to wall the main ramp for some reason, so his usual gateway wall is even stronger than this example. I'm not an expert, but I feel the era for base trade has already ended due to better Protoss play. Not sure how non-ling/roach base trade works at top level, though.
And I feel like this is why nydus is so good. It lets you do damage to the protoss base while still letting you bring your army back to defend your spined-up ramp to the main.
Have you tried defending a ramp against 4 immortals and FFs with 4-5 spines in range at most. The spines die in one burst, if the toss makes no mistakes he won't lose a single immortal before shields go down.
On December 15 2012 10:23 DarKcS wrote: Have you tried defending a ramp against 4 immortals and FFs with 4-5 spines in range at most. The spines die in one burst, if the toss makes no mistakes he won't lose a single immortal before shields go down.
Uh, you're wrong? The ramp plus spines plus bringing roaches back from nydus is typically more than enough.
Just wanted to add that Leenock beat Parting at Blizzard Cup using an 8-roach + ling basetrade approach on Daybreak. Leenock forgoes roach speed and gets a late lair, but holds pretty easily. Parting even goes for the natural but Leenock gets spines in time and mops up Parting's army after killing the cyber and natural.
On December 11 2012 08:17 Proxee wrote: Ive had success with delaying with lings and Going for infestation pit right when my lair is done and taking 6 gases. I can delay long enough to get 4 infestors out and roach/ling. Only Diamond on KR tho.
I have a feeling this is crucial. Recently I felt like doing everything right, delaying and stuff, but he was very very sentry heavy and could just forcefield me out for weeks. I delayed, but didn't tech up to infestors, so I eventually lost more and more stuff while he lost absolutely nothing and just added more stuff. Had I gone for infestors in the back, He'd be dead, but pure mass Ling/Roach doesn't cut it against mass sentry / immo.
To speak more for the roach/ling earliness I proposed earlier, I've had some people asking how I got to 67-70 supply before 7:20. To be honest, this replay is probabaly the best I've ever done it. DRG made it to 70 supply in his code A game vs CreatorPRIME by that benchmark in his replay, but I think I made it to 68 by that same time-mark in this game (I'm no DRG lol). I've been mass testing it vs a GM Toss and it has yielded positive results. The only problem I have is that I can't consistently reproduce the result. To be honest, its probably just him having really good micro and decisions I can't make, but the fact I've won with it before was decent.
This push timing also works well vs any sort of heavy-sentry all-in like the Korean void ray + gateway unit 7-8 gate all-in with like 8-10 sentries. Although I lost the game, LaGBelieve talked with me afterwards and said the units were definitely in time. I was too dumb to realize he had proxied pylons though and his reinforcements killed me along with good ffs and the fact I'm pretty sure I missed 1 inject somewhere at the end. So basically if you're not as stupid as me, you'll be able to search for that sort of thing and stop the push cold. It works in timings with current 1300+ point GMs on NA.
vs LaGBelieve :note The game above is a pretty bad loss by me. However it should showcase the timing and how it should work in the hands of an actual GM and not a mid-master lol.
On December 18 2012 05:52 sCCrooked wrote: To speak more for the roach/ling earliness I proposed earlier, I've had some people asking how I got to 67-70 supply before 7:20. To be honest, this replay is probabaly the best I've ever done it. DRG made it to 70 supply in his code A game vs CreatorPRIME by that benchmark in his replay, but I think I made it to 68 by that same time-mark in this game (I'm no DRG lol). I've been mass testing it vs a GM Toss and it has yielded positive results. The only problem I have is that I can't consistently reproduce the result. To be honest, its probably just him having really good micro and decisions I can't make, but the fact I've won with it before was decent.
This push timing also works well vs any sort of heavy-sentry all-in like the Korean void ray + gateway unit 7-8 gate all-in with like 8-10 sentries. Although I lost the game, LaGBelieve talked with me afterwards and said the units were definitely in time. I was too dumb to realize he had proxied pylons though and his reinforcements killed me along with good ffs and the fact I'm pretty sure I missed 1 inject somewhere at the end. So basically if you're not as stupid as me, you'll be able to search for that sort of thing and stop the push cold. It works in timings with current 1300+ point GMs on NA.
vs LaGBelieve :note The game above is a pretty bad loss by me. However it should showcase the timing and how it should work in the hands of an actual GM and not a mid-master lol.
Damn, that 70 food benchmark is though :D. I would have to see that replay of drg doing it but I find it hard to believe that he got to 70 food at 7:20 with roach warren, lair (or ling speed), evo and 3 gases. I am no drg but even in a 0 pressure game the best I could do is 67 food (and that was on 2 gas without evo). I've been checking drg/leenock/stephano supply at that time in recent games and most of the time they get around 60 so I think its a bit too much to demand non-pro players to reach 70. On the topic, there is a recent game of stephano holding this all in against mc (millenium house lan) by just producing early roach/ling and being active with them on a map. I do believe its better than just lings, since its way easier to snipe some sentries when having a pack of roaches than with just lings. I'll try to provide some reps if I manage to win some games with it again some decent tosses.
On December 18 2012 05:52 sCCrooked wrote: To speak more for the roach/ling earliness I proposed earlier, I've had some people asking how I got to 67-70 supply before 7:20. To be honest, this replay is probabaly the best I've ever done it. DRG made it to 70 supply in his code A game vs CreatorPRIME by that benchmark in his replay, but I think I made it to 68 by that same time-mark in this game (I'm no DRG lol). I've been mass testing it vs a GM Toss and it has yielded positive results. The only problem I have is that I can't consistently reproduce the result. To be honest, its probably just him having really good micro and decisions I can't make, but the fact I've won with it before was decent.
This push timing also works well vs any sort of heavy-sentry all-in like the Korean void ray + gateway unit 7-8 gate all-in with like 8-10 sentries. Although I lost the game, LaGBelieve talked with me afterwards and said the units were definitely in time. I was too dumb to realize he had proxied pylons though and his reinforcements killed me along with good ffs and the fact I'm pretty sure I missed 1 inject somewhere at the end. So basically if you're not as stupid as me, you'll be able to search for that sort of thing and stop the push cold. It works in timings with current 1300+ point GMs on NA.
vs LaGBelieve :note The game above is a pretty bad loss by me. However it should showcase the timing and how it should work in the hands of an actual GM and not a mid-master lol.
This timing was recently used by Leenock as well. He held Parting's immortal sentry all-in with this DRG build. I've noticed that this approach is really hard to pull off against bad players who push out late with the all-in, as you won't be able to attack into them effectively and if you just wait for them to come out you have to keep rallying in units while you wait rather than tech to lair/upgrades/etc. It's easier to lose to people who are slow and wait for extra warp ins with this style, although I suppose if you do it right you can avoid that being a problem.
I noticed that you overdrone with it. Here's how DRG does it: 3 hatch standard opener 6 minutes take 2 gas ling speed, roach warren ~7 minutes drone to 52 and only get 2 gas, no lair, no evo upgrades make 9-11 roaches (not sure why he varies this number, it's just kinda random it seems), then pure zerglings hit their natural at 9 minutes with the 9 or so roaches and 30 speedlings with two more injects worth (~16) rallied in take lair and get +1 carapace (this upgrade depends on your transition), as well as drone to 66 and take all your geysers (for infestor transition)
This build is particularly strong against greedy stargate openers and fast 3 nexus builds in general, while it can be weak on Entombed Valley and easily defended by 4 gate robo into a 3rd there, although it's obviously going to be strong against people who take a 3rd off things like 1 sentry, a zealot/stalker/stalker poke, or a 4gate +1 zealot timing. I used to do this build before stephano style roach/ling maxing became popular and I would just transition to roach/ling/muta after delaying their third or holding their all-in, but this style is even more refined and is strong against the immortal/sentry timing.
On December 18 2012 05:52 sCCrooked wrote: To speak more for the roach/ling earliness I proposed earlier, I've had some people asking how I got to 67-70 supply before 7:20. To be honest, this replay is probabaly the best I've ever done it. DRG made it to 70 supply in his code A game vs CreatorPRIME by that benchmark in his replay, but I think I made it to 68 by that same time-mark in this game (I'm no DRG lol). I've been mass testing it vs a GM Toss and it has yielded positive results. The only problem I have is that I can't consistently reproduce the result. To be honest, its probably just him having really good micro and decisions I can't make, but the fact I've won with it before was decent.
This push timing also works well vs any sort of heavy-sentry all-in like the Korean void ray + gateway unit 7-8 gate all-in with like 8-10 sentries. Although I lost the game, LaGBelieve talked with me afterwards and said the units were definitely in time. I was too dumb to realize he had proxied pylons though and his reinforcements killed me along with good ffs and the fact I'm pretty sure I missed 1 inject somewhere at the end. So basically if you're not as stupid as me, you'll be able to search for that sort of thing and stop the push cold. It works in timings with current 1300+ point GMs on NA.
vs LaGBelieve :note The game above is a pretty bad loss by me. However it should showcase the timing and how it should work in the hands of an actual GM and not a mid-master lol.
This timing was recently used by Leenock as well. He held Parting's immortal sentry all-in with this DRG build. I've noticed that this approach is really hard to pull off against bad players who push out late with the all-in, as you won't be able to attack into them effectively and if you just wait for them to come out you have to keep rallying in units while you wait rather than tech to lair/upgrades/etc. It's easier to lose to people who are slow and wait for extra warp ins with this style, although I suppose if you do it right you can avoid that being a problem.
I noticed that you overdrone with it. Here's how DRG does it: 3 hatch standard opener 6 minutes take 2 gas ling speed, roach warren ~7 minutes drone to 52 and only get 2 gas, no lair, no evo upgrades make 9-11 roaches (not sure why he varies this number, it's just kinda random it seems), then pure zerglings hit their natural at 9 minutes with the 9 or so roaches and 30 speedlings with two more injects worth (~16) rallied in take lair and get +1 carapace (this upgrade depends on your transition), as well as drone to 66 and take all your geysers (for infestor transition)
This build is particularly strong against greedy stargate openers and fast 3 nexus builds in general, while it can be weak on Entombed Valley and easily defended by 4 gate robo into a 3rd there, although it's obviously going to be strong against people who take a 3rd off things like 1 sentry, a zealot/stalker/stalker poke, or a 4gate +1 zealot timing. I used to do this build before stephano style roach/ling maxing became popular and I would just transition to roach/ling/muta after delaying their third or holding their all-in, but this style is even more refined and is strong against the immortal/sentry timing.
Actually, it appears you're referring to a different build than the one I was showcasing. The build is as follows from this VOD.
The Code S Ro16 Auction OSL between DRG and MC. Although its a bit blurry, I believe DRG is between 67 and 70 supply when the 7:20 mark hits. I'm assuming this was probably a little off his optimal build as I've been able to achieve 70 supply with this order and I know I have to be a lot less refined than DRG.
He does not stop at 2 gas or 52 drones. He makes more than 9-11 roaches too and actually gets melee upgrade off an 8:00 evo and although he made spores in the VOD, those minerals would've undoubtedly gone towards a macro hatch, extra queen, and 4th gas around the 8:00 mark against any other opener.
The stuff still comes out in time and you don't have to sac any econ for it. You still get your drones, you just get them faster than the 8:00 benchmark. Soon I'm sure the 7:20 will be figured out too and we'll have to do 7:00 or something equally nutty.
*Edit* Its actually better for the P's side if they go SG opening trying to take a third, not the Z's. The good thing is that whether they push or try to take a third, your forces are there in time for either scenario and you can meet him head-on forcing ffs. The reason for this is that the SG with a void ray can actually see this coming and help the P decide on composition to stop it. The absolute best thing the Z can hope for is they go for something non-air and thus are completely blind. Even with zealot/stalker harass, I can hit the benchmark without much problem and to them, it looks just like a normal 3 hatch build. What they don't realize is that just around 9:00 or so, Z is knocking on the door.
ouble-Edit* forgot to mention "against any other opener" which kinda made the sentence not make sense lol.
*Triple-Edit* My friends in the top 50 GM and I were trying for several days different ways Z could hold a proper immo/sentry on a tough map and we found 2 really effective ways. I'll try to post more of our replays but its tough sifting through all the times the Z would make a slight mistake and not hit the benchmark or some other rather critical error.
We found 52 was too few, but that 56-58 drones can be safely achieved with the normal tech timings on the opener and still get forces out in time to deal with it.
However, if you open this way which is slightly different than the "standard", we were able to get results even with the fully-droned econ at 60+ drones.
I've been checking drg/leenock/stephano supply at that time in recent games and most of the time they get around 60 so I think its a bit too much to demand non-pro players to reach 70.
Yes but I have a feeling the reason was because they were cutting at the 56-58 drone mark in favor of units. That's what pretty much all pros have been fiddling with. Unfortunately, P have also figured out stopping at that mark gives them a timing where we simply don't have the extra 6-10 drones necessary to keep producing at that rate and still tech so we're looking for alternatives, or a way to transition safely should the map favor P and they can easily secure a third (Entombed or cloud for example).
If you watched my replays, I'm only 2-3 supply short at that benchmark and I'm certainly not pro.
DRG did the build as I described against Creator on Antiga in GSL, against MC twice in OSL (easily killing him when he opened phoenix), and other players have used it the same way as well. I suppose the one you are copying is slightly different, and in fact I've seen a few other variations as well.
Here's DRG holding Creator's immortal/sentry all-in with it: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70994/?set=4 With this particular game his 3 hatch before pool opener allows him to have 58 drones and also money for a few extra units. Sometimes he goes for +1 range and other times (vs stargate, it seems) he cancels it and goes for +1 melee intending to transition.
I've considered writing a guide on the build, as commentators never point it out and it was only mimicked a little bit by some foreigners (goswser used it against Rain, for example). Now that I have the time maybe I will do so. Feel free to link any other vods you know of, especially given that the OSL vods are bogus (require a new subscription...)
On December 19 2012 00:26 oOOoOphidian wrote: DRG did the build as I described against Creator on Antiga in GSL, against MC twice in OSL (easily killing him when he opened phoenix), and other players have used it the same way as well. I suppose the one you are copying is slightly different, and in fact I've seen a few other variations as well.
I've considered writing a guide on the build, as commentators never point it out and it was only mimicked a little bit by some foreigners (goswser used it against Rain, for example). Now that I have the time maybe I will do so. Feel free to link any other vods you know of, especially given that the OSL vods are bogus (require a new subscription...)
I'll try to find more. I really wish they commentators would stop mistaking this build for just normal play. There's extremely specific reasons we're making these adjustments to the build we're scouting lol.
Also keep it up phidian! I remember watching your OSL casts near the end of BW's life
On December 19 2012 00:26 oOOoOphidian wrote: DRG did the build as I described against Creator on Antiga in GSL, against MC twice in OSL (easily killing him when he opened phoenix), and other players have used it the same way as well. I suppose the one you are copying is slightly different, and in fact I've seen a few other variations as well.
I've considered writing a guide on the build, as commentators never point it out and it was only mimicked a little bit by some foreigners (goswser used it against Rain, for example). Now that I have the time maybe I will do so. Feel free to link any other vods you know of, especially given that the OSL vods are bogus (require a new subscription...)
I'll try to find more. I really wish they commentators would stop mistaking this build for just normal play. There's extremely specific reasons we're making these adjustments to the build we're scouting lol.
Also keep it up phidian! I remember watching your OSL casts near the end of BW's life
Zerg hwaiting! We'll crack this >
DRG also did this every game against creator in their second meeting (ro16?) and DRGseemed to be miles behind every game, because creator stayed in his base. One game also showed how your lair is too late to react to DTs, you need to scout them out or guess, though DRG got lucky and won that game because creator made some poor choices under pressure in a weird counterattack situation. It looked like DRG was really getting outclassed, but I'm pretty sure that's only because he was playing every game from a disadvantage because he did not want to lose to the immortal all in.
and I don't have the vods, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was at least partially responsible for his unfortunate series against Rain in the OSL.
On December 19 2012 00:26 oOOoOphidian wrote: DRG did the build as I described against Creator on Antiga in GSL, against MC twice in OSL (easily killing him when he opened phoenix), and other players have used it the same way as well. I suppose the one you are copying is slightly different, and in fact I've seen a few other variations as well.
I've considered writing a guide on the build, as commentators never point it out and it was only mimicked a little bit by some foreigners (goswser used it against Rain, for example). Now that I have the time maybe I will do so. Feel free to link any other vods you know of, especially given that the OSL vods are bogus (require a new subscription...)
I'll try to find more. I really wish they commentators would stop mistaking this build for just normal play. There's extremely specific reasons we're making these adjustments to the build we're scouting lol.
Also keep it up phidian! I remember watching your OSL casts near the end of BW's life
Zerg hwaiting! We'll crack this >
DRG also did this every game against creator in their second meeting (ro16?) and drg was miles behind every game. only winning one game due to some silly mistakes in a weird counterattack situation (and this game also showed how your lair is too late to react to DTs, you need to scout them out or guess). it looked like DRG was really getting outclassed, but that's only because he was playing every game from a disadvantage because he did not want to lose to the immortal all in.
and I don't have the vods, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was at least partially responsible for his unfortunate series against Rain in the OSL.
Although this is true, its also possible to switch the lair and speed timings. Speed will not be done in order for you to engage at his front though. You'll have to choose an engagement somewhere in the middle of the map instead.
However if you do this lair then speed stuff, its much closer to standard timings and thus you must stop around 56-58 drones to have forces in time.
On December 19 2012 00:26 oOOoOphidian wrote: DRG did the build as I described against Creator on Antiga in GSL, against MC twice in OSL (easily killing him when he opened phoenix), and other players have used it the same way as well. I suppose the one you are copying is slightly different, and in fact I've seen a few other variations as well.
I've considered writing a guide on the build, as commentators never point it out and it was only mimicked a little bit by some foreigners (goswser used it against Rain, for example). Now that I have the time maybe I will do so. Feel free to link any other vods you know of, especially given that the OSL vods are bogus (require a new subscription...)
I'll try to find more. I really wish they commentators would stop mistaking this build for just normal play. There's extremely specific reasons we're making these adjustments to the build we're scouting lol.
Also keep it up phidian! I remember watching your OSL casts near the end of BW's life
Zerg hwaiting! We'll crack this >
DRG also did this every game against creator in their second meeting (ro16?) and DRGseemed to be miles behind every game, because creator stayed in his base. One game also showed how your lair is too late to react to DTs, you need to scout them out or guess, though DRG got lucky and won that game because creator made some poor choices under pressure in a weird counterattack situation. It looked like DRG was really getting outclassed, but I'm pretty sure that's only because he was playing every game from a disadvantage because he did not want to lose to the immortal all in.
and I don't have the vods, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was at least partially responsible for his unfortunate series against Rain in the OSL.
Yeah I noticed he was using this build in that series against Creator twice and it revealed how to play it in many situations. I have experienced that it's actually very solid against FFE DT builds. He didn't use the build at all against Rain in OSL finals, which I thought was a very unfortunate choice given that Rain was playing fairly greedy 3 base builds every game into a huge timing attack.
This is 3hatch before pool... I though we were talking about the DRG build with 70 supply at 7:27?
If you watch DRG's games, he does go 3 hatch before pool whenever the protoss doesn't scout. It's a reaction to the greedy nexus first/in base forge/no scout play that Parting does a lot to boost up his timings. If your opponent is less greedy you can play less greedy, however.
Fenner did a video on standard zvp openings in which he hits 70 supply at 7:10. This obviously won't happen every game but if you can reach 70 supply in the 7:20 range you are in an excellent position moving into the midgame, regardless of his strategy. For those curious about hitting that 70 supply here is the video:
To be honest if you hit this supply mark you will beat sentry immortal all ins up to at GM level, once their force fields start getting very good it becomes harder but with good engagements you will be able to win.
On December 20 2012 11:42 aLtNXZ wrote: Fenner did a video on standard zvp openings in which he hits 70 supply at 7:10. This obviously won't happen every game but if you can reach 70 supply in the 7:20 range you are in an excellent position moving into the midgame, regardless of his strategy. For those curious about hitting that 70 supply here is the video:
To be honest if you hit this supply mark you will beat sentry immortal all ins up to at GM level, once their force fields start getting very good it becomes harder but with good engagements you will be able to win.
There are some conditions attached with being able to get 70 supply by 7:10-7:20, something I've done some testing on myself. My opener is slightly different from fenner's but it's essentially equivalent. Assuming you don't get harassed at all you can reach almost 80 supply by 8min, which is pretty amazing.
Conditions:
- Can't get natural hatch blocked - Can't get pressured by protoss at all. If they send out a zealot stalker to harass the third there's no way you'll hit 70 supply by then unless you think you can stop that with 4 lings and a queen lol - Must be able to rule out potential early allin as rw comes down after the 7:20 mark - I skip the creep tumour that connects the natural to the third in favour of another inject
So yeah, realistically speaking, you should expect around 65 supply with pylon block, 60 with zealot stalker harass. Also I feel like you're on slightly too many drones at that 7:20 mark, around 58 after putting down rw evo macro, so I'd make another queen instead of those 3 extra drones to try and hold immo/sentry with mass roach/ling.
Maybe... open up standard, 3 hatch, first gas the moment you drop your third hatch, 2nd gas at 6:00, 3rd gas at 6:30. Now, Lair before ling speed, RW/evo at 7:00 (this is all assuming you don't scout a gateway all in based on their gas count, if you do, you can get RW a bit earlier). Upgrade +1 attack, not range (you can cancel this for 4 more roaches if you scout gateway all in), macro hatch. Immediately start Drop tech upon Lair completion, we don't need Roach Speed, Bane Nest when Drop is 50% done, OV speed when Drop is 70% done, morph as many banelings as possible and go ling bain rain. Sac 3rd if necessary, but let the drones mine as long as possible. You can build roaches as buffer if necessary, but not to many, we need gas.
Going to test against CPU now to see how it times out with Parting's push, I want to see how far along drop is when he initially hits at around 9:10 or so...
EDIT: With Lair at 6:05, my Drop wasn't done until 9:50 ish. Way too late. So, 5 minute Lair? Lol.
EDIT2: I'm considering going for 2 base play --> 3rd or all in, depending on what I scout. 14/14, with a 5 min Lair, then alter my play based on scouting. Use speedlings to deny any fast third, and alter my Lair tech depending on what I scout. If I scout sentry all in or sentry --> third, I can go for ling bane rain all in off 2 bases. If I scout SG, I can go for ling hydra push (on smaller maps) or ling hydra with a forward nydus. I can also go for 2 extra queens (for a total of 4) and get infestor tech, then a third (against SG openers) but that seems a bit too... conservative.
2 base muta --> 3rd is also an option, against 4 gate sentry --> 3rd, or against VR openers.
Err against blink all ins, with 5 min Lair I should have Infestor tech out before the stalkers reach that critical mass...
If I scout 2 base colossus, I can immediately take a third knowing they won't push without that 3rd Colossus, and go for roach/ling/infestor or roach/ling/corruptor.
Idk, it all seems sooooo scouting dependant and it's pretty easy to deny scouting or trick the Zerg with just relying on gas reads.
Keep in mind, any two base play probably won't see an immortal/sentry all in. Everything that I have read, immortal/sentry is used against 3 hatch no gas. If they don't see the third hatch, if they see two base play, they will either go 2 base collosus or immortal/sentry expand.
So unless the mindset of the reaction to not seeing a third has changed, saying 'Don't go 3 hatch no gas' to beat immortal sentry, is similar to saying 'Don't go 3 hatch before pool to beat 2 rax'.
On December 20 2012 11:42 aLtNXZ wrote: Fenner did a video on standard zvp openings in which he hits 70 supply at 7:10. This obviously won't happen every game but if you can reach 70 supply in the 7:20 range you are in an excellent position moving into the midgame, regardless of his strategy. For those curious about hitting that 70 supply here is the video:
To be honest if you hit this supply mark you will beat sentry immortal all ins up to at GM level, once their force fields start getting very good it becomes harder but with good engagements you will be able to win.
There are some conditions attached with being able to get 70 supply by 7:10-7:20, something I've done some testing on myself. My opener is slightly different from fenner's but it's essentially equivalent. Assuming you don't get harassed at all you can reach almost 80 supply by 8min, which is pretty amazing.
Conditions:
- Can't get natural hatch blocked - Can't get pressured by protoss at all. If they send out a zealot stalker to harass the third there's no way you'll hit 70 supply by then unless you think you can stop that with 4 lings and a queen lol - Must be able to rule out potential early allin as rw comes down after the 7:20 mark - I skip the creep tumour that connects the natural to the third in favour of another inject
So yeah, realistically speaking, you should expect around 65 supply with pylon block, 60 with zealot stalker harass. Also I feel like you're on slightly too many drones at that 7:20 mark, around 58 after putting down rw evo macro, so I'd make another queen instead of those 3 extra drones to try and hold immo/sentry with mass roach/ling.
Yes its amazing, but its also incredibly greedy. I don't know many who don't use at least a stalker to harass at high level.
If you're really good though, even against zealot/stalker poke and a pylon block, you can achieve 67-70 supply by 7:30. I've also tried variations where there were not 2 gasses at the natural and thus I expected a pressure from 4 gates and I threw down the warren and evo at 6:35 and 7:00 respectively which still allowed me to get 70 by 7:30.
There's ways to get this mark even against GMs, but I've only just recently started being able to do it with in excess of 300 games played vs this and all vs upper 100 GMs.
The Parting games against Sniper today were totally ridiculous. If a build isn't countered in 6 months although you know it's coming... should tell you something about the state of the game.
In any case, the main flaw of Sniper is, he didn't tech, which makes poking and delayed Sentry/Immo allins even more powerful, because he will eventually so much stuff (because he isn't losing anything due to FFs), not even a 200/200 roach/ling will hold with spines. If you don't tech to infestors, you're dead. Sniper still was on Ling/Roach at 15 minutes because of Parting just sitting around pretending to attack, mostly, which triggered "get more stuff to hold" instead of "tech to infestors".
On December 20 2012 23:53 Mahtasooma wrote: The Parting games against Sniper today were totally ridiculous. If a build isn't countered in 6 months although you know it's coming... should tell you something about the state of the game.
In any case, the main flaw of Sniper is, he didn't tech, which makes poking and delayed Sentry/Immo allins even more powerful, because he will eventually so much stuff (because he isn't losing anything due to FFs), not even a 200/200 roach/ling will hold with spines. If you don't tech to infestors, you're dead. Sniper still was on Ling/Roach at 15 minutes because of Parting just sitting around pretending to attack, mostly, which triggered "get more stuff to hold" instead of "tech to infestors".
Sadly teching to infestors does nothing. The only way you can possibly get enough gas to get any decent number out is to throw down your pit as soon as lair is done and the upgrade as soon as the pit is done. 4 gas is simply not enough income to afford enough infestors.
WIth the reduced power in the infestors too, sentries can actually set up ffs and as long as they're spread out, the immortal/stalker fire will outrange your infestors and make you unable to hit sentries with fungal.
Not to mention the earliest you could possibly have any fungals is well into the 11 minute-12 minute range which is when you're not just under attack, but most likely already dead or at least down a base and your entire army + 20 something drones and a queen or so.
I have another method to holding this, it's VERY specific though and only works best against the soul train build in which he goes for the 36 suppl robo.
Standard 3 base opener taking 3 gas at 6:20. First 100 to lair Second 100 to speed Third 100 to attack.
The moment your lair finishes, get burrow and tunneling claws. Mass lings and then win.
On December 21 2012 00:11 eSuBuildings wrote: I have another method to holding this, it's VERY specific though and only works best against the soul train build in which he goes for the 36 suppl robo.
Standard 3 base opener taking 3 gas at 6:20. First 100 to lair Second 100 to speed Third 100 to attack.
The moment your lair finishes, get burrow and tunneling claws. Mass lings and then win.
Would you care to elaborate? So far you gave virtually no information, tech that doesn't help you vs this push at all and no mention of your timings for stopping his ball from growing too large.
On December 21 2012 00:11 eSuBuildings wrote: I have another method to holding this, it's VERY specific though and only works best against the soul train build in which he goes for the 36 suppl robo.
Standard 3 base opener taking 3 gas at 6:20. First 100 to lair Second 100 to speed Third 100 to attack.
The moment your lair finishes, get burrow and tunneling claws. Mass lings and then win.
Would you care to elaborate? So far you gave virtually no information, tech that doesn't help you vs this push at all and no mention of your timings for stopping his ball from growing too large.
From the tech, it is pretty easy to see what he intends to do. Get brurow roaches, (3 gas at 6:20, first lair, speed, ranged attack, tunnling/burrow gets tunnling claws at ~10 - 10:20. Sentry/immortal usually gets a warp prism and then the observer. There is a window where you burrow into the mass, snipe sentries? (immortals?) and then clean up with speedlings.
Moves out at, let's say 9:15. Warp prism is done at 9:30, An instant observer, without chrono, would finish right around 10 and then travel time. You may have a very small window where you can burrow in and snipe sentries, so that your speedlings/roaches can clean up immortal stalker/zealot fairly easily. I would say burrow move would finish approximately when the lings got the surround in that VOD. (there is no observer there, probably because he saw the nydus and thought burrow wasn't going to show up).
Burrow actually finishes 10 seconds before claws. if you know the path they are taking, you can pre-emptively burrow and unburrow under them.
So, from SC2planner, it seems using burrow/burrow move roaches against sentry immortal all in may work. It can be pulled off, but if it is pulled off does it work is another question. Another advantage, is that you don't instantly lose if they get to your natural and FF the ramp.
Of all lair tech's, claws comes out 20 seconds before infestors, and 23 seconds before muta's.
On December 21 2012 00:11 eSuBuildings wrote: I have another method to holding this, it's VERY specific though and only works best against the soul train build in which he goes for the 36 suppl robo.
Standard 3 base opener taking 3 gas at 6:20. First 100 to lair Second 100 to speed Third 100 to attack.
The moment your lair finishes, get burrow and tunneling claws. Mass lings and then win.
Would you care to elaborate? So far you gave virtually no information, tech that doesn't help you vs this push at all and no mention of your timings for stopping his ball from growing too large.
From the tech, it is pretty easy to see what he intends to do. Get brurow roaches, (3 gas at 6:20, first lair, speed, ranged attack, tunnling/burrow gets tunnling claws at ~10 - 10:20. Sentry/immortal usually gets a warp prism and then the observer. There is a window where you burrow into the mass, snipe sentries? (immortals?) and then clean up with speedlings.
Moves out at, let's say 9:15. Warp prism is done at 9:30, An instant observer, without chrono, would finish right around 10 and then travel time. You may have a very small window where you can burrow in and snipe sentries, so that your speedlings/roaches can clean up immortal stalker/zealot fairly easily. I would say burrow move would finish approximately when the lings got the surround in that VOD. (there is no observer there, probably because he saw the nydus and thought burrow wasn't going to show up).
Burrow actually finishes 10 seconds before claws. if you know the path they are taking, you can pre-emptively burrow and unburrow under them.
So, from SC2planner, it seems using burrow/burrow move roaches against sentry immortal all in may work. It can be pulled off, but if it is pulled off does it work is another question. Another advantage, is that you don't instantly lose if they get to your natural and FF the ramp.
Of all lair tech's, claws comes out 20 seconds before infestors, and 23 seconds before muta's.
I see my point didn't make it through.
Quite simply put, the idea has been suggested before and been shot down. burrowed roach can't compete with immo/sentry. P just will back up and go again. Also usually they have an obs with them. Its literally an integral part of the build. Also the moveout timing you're using there is wrong. Assuming no weird nydus thoughts going through his head like there were in this game, the move-out is around 8:50 in most games people would consider "textbook optimal". The warp prism joins up around 9:00, not 9:30 and the push is attacking your third with a forcefield wall already in place and all 3 immortals pumping away with the 2nd full warp-in coming in at 9:45-9:50.
You're literally just hoping he didn't make an observer which is a very bad way to think at high level play.
The warp prism in that vod was not delayed at all. Unfortunately, we can't see all chrono's, but there is non-stop immortal production into warp prism and the warp prism pops out at 9:30. Unless there was a full minute where the robo was not being chronoed and could have been, the warp prism is not coming out at 9 minutes.
Is there a link to a video of the warp prism coming out at 9 minutes that builds at least one combat unit before the robo is placed? If there is, why is his warp prism 30 seconds delayed in this VOD? Here is a replay where he got the warp prism out by 9:07, what did he do differently? Did he mis-use chrono's in the gomplayer vod?
I don't think the nydus delayed his push in that VOD. The nydus attempt was killed way before the third immortal came out.
P just will back up and go again
How? Your lings or the force fields that they used to keep your lings out should be stopping them from backing up and kiting your burrowed roaches. It still needs to be roach/ling, lings need to force them to use force fields/hold them in place, and the roaches are to focus down sentry's that are trapped by either lings or force fields.
I thought the current way to hold was to get good surrounds with roach/ling, and hope they misplace some force fields and/or you snipe some full energy sentries. Are you suggesting that the resources invested into burrow/claws are less effective than having one or 2 more roaches and roach speed?
Looking at the build parting uses, it also lacks a full wall off, or a zealot blocking the hole, it has no vision of the map and, at least on ohana, doesn't have pylons in a spot to allow for a full wall off in a second location, so if you get passed the first partial wall off you are home free. Without a sentry, I don't think he would be able to pull a probe from the mineral line and wall it off while your lings are running up the ramp. Further, his sentries are delayed compared to other sentry/immortal all ins that get a sentry before the robo. There may easily be a timing to exploit in there where even a bunch of slow lings can run in and punish the build.
How? Your lings or the force fields that they used to keep your lings out should be stopping them from backing up and kiting your burrowed roaches. It still needs to be roach/ling, lings need to force them to use force fields/hold them in place, and the roaches are to focus down sentry's that are trapped by either lings or force fields.
I thought the current way to hold was to get good surrounds with roach/ling, and hope they misplace some force fields and/or you snipe some full energy sentries. Are you suggesting that the resources invested into burrow/claws are less effective than having one or 2 more roaches and roach speed?
You'd be pretty surprised how hard it is to get a good 3 way surround on maps like cloud kingdom and not have him get half your forces in the ff wall so he kills all that guaranteed and any forces that are still bugging out at the forcefield edges he gets too. Any natural terrain (Ohana's middle raised things and tree islands for example) really help him accomplish these easily since it means you have to run through chokes to retreat each time and he'll probably get a good chunk if he's not a moron.
The problem is at GM level, semi-pro and professional level, the Protoss is extremely proficient at this and there's almost no way other than to just macro macro and hope he fucks up.
That's the real problem right now is a lot of people approach this very one-dimensionally. I know a decent amount of GMs and they all play very tight. I see them moving out within :15 of Parting's execution and yes the warp prism is around 9:00-9:15. Ask anyone on this board who has personally requested to face some of my practice friends. They will confirm its completely different when a solid Grandmaster's timing with this push and composition.
On December 21 2012 03:54 sCCrooked wrote: Ask anyone on this board who has personally requested to face some of my practice friends. They will confirm its completely different when a solid Grandmaster's timing with this push and composition.
It's definitely a... little harder =)
Crooked and his buddies were kind enough to let me run some games with them, as I wanted to see what the difference was between some of the opponents I've faced and someone really good was when going hydras. As stupid as it sounds, one of the biggest differences I found was simple macro. My opening 8:00 is decent, getting me to 70 supply by 8:00 (I know it can be better but he also stalker-harassed me), but I had a hard time getting out sufficient units to feel comfortable engaging his army.
The gap in skill was huge, and I'm not sure how much of the loss was just inferior macro on my part vs my actual unit comp; I'll be working to iron out the imperfections in my build. (BTW I'm sure if I had gone roach/ling I would have gotten equally, if not more, stomped =P) I don't have an opinion on tunneling claws one way or another, I can see the potential of it with very good micro, but the build in the hands of a good protoss is a somewhat different ballgame.
On a related note, I felt that stopping drones at 8:00 was not the way to go, unless I had a much earlier macrohatch as I was not able to get out enough lings to delay at all. I feel like you need at least 36 speedlings or so to trade/harass cost efficiently when he moves out. Is 8:00 still when people stop droning for this, or is it earlier (especially with the more optimized openers that are coming out, like 70 supply by 7:15)?
Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this.
Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple!
Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2.
The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 9:20 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! I am not entirely sure if it work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I. It is extremely key that you do not engage fully if you do not have +1 carapace finished.
On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote: Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this.
Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple!
Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2.
The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I.
Thanks, I hope this helps.
hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o
On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote: Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this.
Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple!
Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2.
The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I.
Thanks, I hope this helps.
hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o
The problem is, he's saying he has the lings by 10 minutes. By 10 minutes on Ohana, a good protoss is basically at your base. And that's too late for lings.
On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote: Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this.
Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple!
Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2.
The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I.
Thanks, I hope this helps.
hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o
The problem is, he's saying he has the lings by 10 minutes. By 10 minutes on Ohana, a good protoss is basically at your base. And that's too late for lings.
It depends on the version of the push, if it's a faster version you can still easily have the lings there ready in time. 10:00 is just the absolute max. In general you should have the lings there 9:20, I should be more specific and add that to my post. For example, I watched my GM friend play this vs. a GM protoss on Ohana, he had 38 lings outside of his base at 9:19 with 18 on the way and 58 drones.
On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote: Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this.
Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple!
Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2.
The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I.
Thanks, I hope this helps.
hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o
The problem is, he's saying he has the lings by 10 minutes. By 10 minutes on Ohana, a good protoss is basically at your base. And that's too late for lings.
It depends on the version of the push, if it's a faster version you can still easily have the lings there ready in time. 10:00 is just the absolute max. In general you should have the lings there 9:20, I should be more specific and add that to my post. For example, I watched my GM friend play this vs. a GM protoss on Ohana, he had 38 lings outside of his base at 9:19 with 18 on the way and 58 drones.
On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote: Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this.
Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple!
Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2.
The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I.
Thanks, I hope this helps.
hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o
The problem is, he's saying he has the lings by 10 minutes. By 10 minutes on Ohana, a good protoss is basically at your base. And that's too late for lings.
It depends on the version of the push, if it's a faster version you can still easily have the lings there ready in time. 10:00 is just the absolute max. In general you should have the lings there 9:20, I should be more specific and add that to my post. For example, I watched my GM friend play this vs. a GM protoss on Ohana, he had 38 lings outside of his base at 9:19 with 18 on the way and 58 drones.
Can you post the rep?
I'd like to ask him first just in case he'd rather I not for some reason. In the mean time I am going to continue laddering today and see if I can make a good example of my own. :D I may actually already have a replay of my own, let me look...
On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote: Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this.
Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple!
Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2.
The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I.
Thanks, I hope this helps.
hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o
The problem is, he's saying he has the lings by 10 minutes. By 10 minutes on Ohana, a good protoss is basically at your base. And that's too late for lings.
It depends on the version of the push, if it's a faster version you can still easily have the lings there ready in time. 10:00 is just the absolute max. In general you should have the lings there 9:20, I should be more specific and add that to my post. For example, I watched my GM friend play this vs. a GM protoss on Ohana, he had 38 lings outside of his base at 9:19 with 18 on the way and 58 drones.
Can you post the rep?
I'd like to ask him first just in case he'd rather I not for some reason. In the mean time I am going to continue laddering today and see if I can make a good example of my own. :D I may actually already have a replay of my own, let me look...
The reason I ask is because I think that point about 38 lings outside his base at 9:15~9:20 is pretty key, but I'm not sure at what point you need to stop droning and start producing units to hit this benchmark. Can you provide some supply/timing benchmarks that someone should be hitting in order to achieve this (like post-7:00 benchmarks)?
Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2.
I have no idea how you manage to have carapace, ling speed and lair off of two gasses taken at 6:00 all ready at 9:20. Is this even mathematically possible? My carapace finishes at like 10:30.
Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2.
I have no idea how you manage to have carapace, ling speed and lair off of two gasses taken at 6:00 all ready at 9:20. Is this even mathematically possible? My carapace finishes at like 10:30.
No it isn't, with his build carapace will finish at around the 10:20 mark, however I assume this isn't an issue for the mass ling surround at 9:15. To my knowledge +1 attack does not finish for the protoss until later in the push so having carapace at that point is unnecessary. However I am more curious about how he affords such an early macro hatchery and a roach warren + evo at 6:30 (not sure if i read this wrong but 6:30 is earlier than normal).
On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote: Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this.
Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple!
Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2.
The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I.
Thanks, I hope this helps.
hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o
The problem is, he's saying he has the lings by 10 minutes. By 10 minutes on Ohana, a good protoss is basically at your base. And that's too late for lings.
It depends on the version of the push, if it's a faster version you can still easily have the lings there ready in time. 10:00 is just the absolute max. In general you should have the lings there 9:20, I should be more specific and add that to my post. For example, I watched my GM friend play this vs. a GM protoss on Ohana, he had 38 lings outside of his base at 9:19 with 18 on the way and 58 drones.
Its still too late. PartinG moves out with 3 immortals, ~8 sentries and stalker at 8:50, and you are wrong, +1 attack can be worked in if you just build it instead of one of the 3 sentries pre-warpgate or something along those lines. If you are betting on him not having +1 attack at 9:20, well, i hope you are feeling lucky.
You overestimate the ability of random masters (or even gm) players to execute immortal all in. They are nowhere close to PartinG. With 20-30 games practice you can get pretty close, its sad that people dont even take the time to do this, but its the truth, even at high master. The game will be decided before 10:20 if he moves correctly and you are fighting with almost pure ling waiting for carapace.
I think more zergs should start doing 2base muta (lair before speed) with ~1ling+queen to deny scout of the lair while 1ling scouts for probes
go muta/ling to start, then when he adds in collossi you get corrupter+muta+ling.
your first engagements of muta/ling are all about killing sentries. a-move, kill all sentries with mutas, run away. keep killing sentries and muta/ling trades effectively against protoss pre-collossi
post collossi, start adding in corrupters instead of muta. fly in with muta/corrupter, kill all the collossi, THEN swarm in with 100 zerglings against the gateway army
because your only gas is spent on mutas/upgrades, you can get dual evo chambers and power out 3/3 lings asap and compete with the tosses upgrades. then cracklings plus ultralisks and broodlords is insane
On December 22 2012 11:27 slipskentime wrote: I think more zergs should start doing 2base muta (lair before speed) with ~1ling+queen to deny scout of the lair while 1ling scouts for probes
go muta/ling to start, then when he adds in collossi you get corrupter+muta+ling.
your first engagements of muta/ling are all about killing sentries. a-move, kill all sentries with mutas, run away. keep killing sentries and muta/ling trades effectively against protoss pre-collossi
post collossi, start adding in corrupters instead of muta. fly in with muta/corrupter, kill all the collossi, THEN swarm in with 100 zerglings against the gateway army
because your only gas is spent on mutas/upgrades, you can get dual evo chambers and power out 3/3 lings asap and compete with the tosses upgrades. then cracklings plus ultralisks and broodlords is insane
But against standard non-all in styles, this is really, really bad.
2-base infestor, however, is not really really bad. You can play it as a macro style and just rely on the supreme cost-efficiency of infestors to give you an edge. Zerg with infestors seems to be fine on equal bases with Protoss.
2 pages ago I said:[ We found 52 was too few, but that 56-58 drones can be safely achieved with the normal tech timings on the opener and still get forces out in time to deal with it
Last night when Life held ParTinG's immo/sentry all-in, he stopped at precisely 56 drones. It seems we have something that works against the creator of the build himself at last. Lings to stop it with roaches once you see them trying to expand is the way to go.
It's not hard to defeat the sentry-immortal all-in. You merely have to make Toss waste their force fields on the other side of the map. Then it's gg. The fact that this appears to be an "advanced concept" for Zerg players says a lot about the creativity, or rather the lack thereof, of that community.
On December 23 2012 05:16 Rossie wrote: It's not hard to defeat the sentry-immortal all-in. You merely have to make Toss waste their force fields on the other side of the map. Then it's gg. The fact that this appears to be an "advanced concept" for Zerg players says a lot about the creativity, or rather the lack thereof, of that community.
this is not only not helpful, its not new to us and just based on this statement, I can tell you've never faced any high level execution of this build.
On December 23 2012 05:16 Rossie wrote: It's not hard to defeat the sentry-immortal all-in. You merely have to make Toss waste their force fields on the other side of the map. Then it's gg. The fact that this appears to be an "advanced concept" for Zerg players says a lot about the creativity, or rather the lack thereof, of that community.
Please, go ahead and post your replays of you easily beating pro-level immortal all ins. I would like to see how you find it easy to hold.
On December 23 2012 05:16 Rossie wrote: It's not hard to defeat the sentry-immortal all-in. You merely have to make Toss waste their force fields on the other side of the map. Then it's gg. The fact that this appears to be an "advanced concept" for Zerg players says a lot about the creativity, or rather the lack thereof, of that community.
Has anyone figured out how to stop the immo/sentry AI with Hydra/Lings? I've been using the composition with mixed succes but it seems the only one having a real chance aside from toss messing up terribly.
Here is how my games usually proceed:
15p/16h, 3rd base, gas at 6.00, rw & evo chamber. 6.30-7.00 double OL scout to see what is going on. If I spot a robo/immortal and some sentry's.
Ling Speed, Lair, Macro Hatch, Hydra Den the moment Lair is done & immediate Hydra range.
I start massing lings but I keep 10-15 larva pooled since i'm screwed if he goes for a third and I made a ton of hydra's. When he moves out I delay with lings as long as possible and make 10-15 Hydra's. When he arrives at my base I usually crush the attack fairly easily.
The problem I have on certain maps (Shakuras, Ohana)is when he pulls back when he sees hydra's and warps in MORE sentrys. As wierd as it sounds, he comes back with +- 10 sentry's and with a double FF wall he pushes away my army so he can just bloody walk into my natural & perma FF behind him. With a double FF wall my army can't hit anything and obviously I can't split up my army into my natural. So what on earth can i do? Going hydra delays further tech so I most likely won't have infestors ready in time.
Note: I'm only top Diamond so obviously my macro isn't really good so the basic advice is just macro better.And I certainly do not disagree with that. But on the other hand the Toss is equally bad (ideal timing +xmins..) so even if I just outmacro my way into Master i'll still have the same question against better Toss
I realized I never really compiled all my findings spread out in this thread into 1 post so here goes:
sCCroooked's findings regarding stopping the immortal/sentry all-in from the last 5 months of extensive testing
The best response in my opinion is roach/ling but with a variation on how you execute it.
First off, most Zs go lair first vs P. This is no longer possible with immo/sentry being so popular as it strikes before lair tech units can be out. The immo/sentry expand also has given P a very safe option to expand with this composition and its incredibly hard to tell the difference as a Z, while even a slight delay in the proper reaction could result in a game over.
To stop the immortal all-in, we must recognize its formation and its execution first.
-3 immortals + many sentries move out of natural base with warp prism on the way and a probe or 2 to build pylons
During this first stage, all the P will have is immortal/sentry with no zealot/stalker except possibly 1 single stalker which isn't a significant factor we have to consider in this since the counter-unit is the same.
So what kills 1 stalker/sentries and immortals? Bunch of speedlings! If they forcefield, even better because it still helps your cause out.
-The remaining immortals/sentries and the pylons/warp-prism will gather together in a single spot and defend it with ffs and firing behind the wall. Seeing such mass lings during the first stage of our engagements will almost always force zealot warp-ins. If they warp in stalkers, its just begging for more lings to be made.
This stage is incredibly important because its right around now that the attack looks a lot more threatening with all the warp-ins adding to its power. Since you forced a lot of zealots, make a roach round to deal with it and pre-rally them into a flank at home. They won't have speed done just yet so they're useless off creep. Position these in a nice big circle to lead them into. After 1-2 warps of zealots, you probably won't be able to force any ffs unless the P gets careless since most Ps will realize they're safe behind 14 zealots from your lings and can stop the sentry/immo from being attacked. Try to pick off sentries if you can, but whatever you do, don't waste your lings.
-Finally, the P is completely set up with immo/sentry and will be attacking into one of your bases with the intention of continually reinforcing with zealot/stalker and then winning right there.
Hopefully by this point, you've exhausted almost all the sentry energy. They might have enough for 1 more big donut of forcefields, but that should be it and you can get in with the next wave of roach/ling.
Now that we've broken that down and how to respond in each stage, how do we achieve all these timings?
I'd recommend following fenner's build order from this video.
Its very greedy and gets a warren too late for things like 8 gate +2 blink allins or something, but its perfect for the latest meta which is 3 base collossi pushes off immo/sentry or SG expand or the immo/sentry all-in off 2 bases. You really don't see much 4 gate +1 pressure into all-in or those as much these days.
However we're going to make a few changes to Fenner's build order for this particular all-in.
The beauty of this version is that I've found it not only works against immo/sentry all-in, but it also is fast enough and with enough economy and tech to completely kill P who use the immo/sentry as an expand off 5 gates or so.
At this point, I'm assuming everyone has seen the video or can get to 70+ supply before 7:30 rather easily (you really want before 7:15, but 7:30 is a good round number for general use here) so I shouldn't have to explain that build part. We're just going to point out all the variation changes we need to stop this push.
-Speed first, then lair (reason is we need speed to be done no later than 8:30 or so for that 8:50 first stage)
-Stop at no more than 56 drones. (reason for this is larva + timing. Those 4-8 larva can be 16 speedlings instead of drones and stopping at this number does not dent your economy badly)
-Delay macro hatch until your first ling round is made
-Spread Creep with at least 2 tumors. I usually do one with my natural queen and then once again around 50 supply mark and 6:00 from the third base
Using these variations, you get speedlings out quicker in time to deal with the oncoming push. You also have roach tech (which wouldn't have speed even close to done anyways even if lair was done) massing slowly at your base.
The purpose of these lings is more harassment. Treat them like you would a muta flock of 10 or so when facing a Terran base that already has turrets but is trying to build more on the edges or something. Its a volatile force you're facing and a few good ffs can catch some lings, so pay attention to this force very carefully.
Well now that we see the variations, how do we execute this?
-While active with your lings on the map engaging his first push-out, target sentries and probes/pylons above all else. If you're REALLY lucky he'll screw up and you can surround an immortal in which case definitely take it, but this would be a rather large blunder so don't count on it. You can quite possibly pick off all probes thus crippling his reinforcement abilities and might even get a sentry or 2 killed.
-Make a round of pure roach at home after your 20-30 speedlings
-Continue to engage and surround with lings while on the map. Do not move your roaches! You basically want to set them up and then lure them into this attacking spot with the flank already set up.
-Its ok to make a few lings if you see your group of lings got ff'd or something and it caused you to lose a lot of them, but concentrate mainly on roaches. If you see they still have a considerable amount of ffs when they reach your base, you can suicide the remaining ling bunch trying to bait some more or take out some sentries.
As soon as you see them actually at your base, its time for the big attack. You need to snap that big 3 or even 4 way arc of roaches around them and prepare to back them off once he makes a donut of ffs. If you did a good job with the lings, this should be his final ffs you're seeing.
After this point, its ok to make either roaches or lings depending on what you see happening. Its very dependent at this point so I can't really guide farther than this.
Yes! There are things like engagement places and looking for likely places for pylons to be hidden.
On a map like Entombed, make sure that small arc behind the middle-left and middle-right rocked-off expansions is cleared. P love hiding stuff back there.
Any areas that have vision-blockers like shrubs or trees need to be checked thoroughly. A good P will send 2 probes to make pylons just in case you see one of them with the army, there's another one running around sneakily setting up places they can reinforce on the map. Sniping those probes is HUGE if you can pull it off.
In a proper engagement of the roaches, you want to set up the flanks long before you'll actually have him in there. The longer you're able to keep him busy, the more roaches you can have waiting for him there. On a map like Ohana, its very likely they'll snake up around onto where you'd normally build your 4th base and try to set up a position there.
Since you already know probably where he'll engage (Daybreak on your third's choke, Cloud Kingdom on that snaking back path to your third, etc), it shouldn't be hard to rally the eggs to different places so you have a huge flank already set up. I can't stress how important this is.
Try to save the lings as much as possible while harassing the crap out of sentries. They buy you time and weaken his potential with baiting ffs and killing sentries/probes/pylons.
The roaches are your hammer though. Think of the time you buy and the damage you do with your lings as a gauge. By killing more stuff or preventing more pylons or every time you make him use a forcefield, that hammer is raised higher and the head is given more weight as time goes on.
Ahead there be some spoilers from a game of the Blizzard Cup Finals, do not read if you don't want Parting vs Life spoiled!
Your object here is to make "The Hammer" part as heavy and as painful as possible. This was showcased in some replays but I don't have many of my own to give. The best execution in a pro match I've seen was in the last Blizzard Cup Finals on Entombed. Life did exactly as I've been testing and it stopped parting cold. He was trying to warp in nothing but sentries at the end because Life did so well with the lings and had so many roaches waiting when Parting finally made it over.
Now granted, I think he got pretty damned lucky with the probe/pylon snipe, but the concept is very sound and still works at top 50 GM level as I've shown before.
I have personally been doing pretty okay vs sentry immortal the last few days. I've been doing 15h 17p with a 3rd at 35 supply, 2 gas at 6 minutes. I stop droning at 7:50, get ling speed before lair, then +1 attack on ranged.
I make a big round of lings, and then roaches and set up a flank right outside their natural. I usually have units in position around 9-:10. I flank with lings on one side and roaches on the other. If the protoss misses forcefields it's gg because his army is not in a good position, and I can pick off key units. If he forcefields well then I back off and go again asap. This delays his push over and over.
I guess this isn't the most informative post here, but that's what I've been doing and I've been pretty successful. I try to get infestation pit started if their push seems to be poorly timed for the free win.
I've just been watching Jaedong on his stream and his response against the AI is almost indentical to the one proposed by the two above posters. The problem is still have (aside from Jaedong still losing) is that you can only win if the Protoss overextends. Even delaying the push over and over only means the Toss ball becomes bigger and bigger to the point where no amount of ling/roach can deal with it. Basically when there are 10+ Sentry the amount of FF is almost infinite.
Now if you're outclassing the opponent I can imagine this working, but against an evenly matched opponent I don't like my chances. Anyone has any luck with Hydra/Ling? I just don't see the point of making Roaches and the Toss composition is specifically designed to slaughter Roaches
On December 26 2012 05:34 Kraelog wrote: I've just been watching Jaedong on his stream and his response against the AI is almost indentical to the one proposed by the two above posters. The problem is still have (aside from Jaedong still losing) is that you can only win if the Protoss overextends. Even delaying the push over and over only means the Toss ball becomes bigger and bigger to the point where no amount of ling/roach can deal with it. Basically when there are 10+ Sentry the amount of FF is almost infinite.
Now if you're outclassing the opponent I can imagine this working, but against an evenly matched opponent I don't like my chances. Anyone has any luck with Hydra/Ling? I just don't see the point of making Roaches and the Toss composition is specifically designed to slaughter Roaches
Hydra ling works pretty well but it's not auto-win
If the toss composition is too big, probably hydra-ling will loose. Would need some testings.
If the protoss goes out too late, it could be good if zerg had drops. This way, he could tradebase and be sure to win... (zerg always win tradebase)
Really thorough; I tried it out and really like it. So to clarify, you skip +1 cara and completely stop using lings, except for the initial ~20 to delay him? Like slow roaches with double creep spread is a good idea.
Does it not work to take a 5:45 double gas then go lair->speed and get it done in time?
On December 26 2012 06:16 Mavvie wrote: Wow sCCrooked, merry fucking Christmas
Really thorough; I tried it out and really like it. So to clarify, you skip +1 cara and completely stop using lings, except for the initial ~20 to delay him? Like slow roaches with double creep spread is a good idea.
Does it not work to take a 5:45 double gas then go lair->speed and get it done in time?
I know the question was to sccroocked but this is exactly how I play and it does work good (5:45 gas). Earlier roach speed lets you to be aggresive with your roaches as well not with just lings and force the fight right outside toss base or somewhere in the middle of the map when his army is still relatively weak.
On December 26 2012 06:16 Mavvie wrote: Wow sCCrooked, merry fucking Christmas
Really thorough; I tried it out and really like it. So to clarify, you skip +1 cara and completely stop using lings, except for the initial ~20 to delay him? Like slow roaches with double creep spread is a good idea.
Does it not work to take a 5:45 double gas then go lair->speed and get it done in time?
Merry Xmas to all of you as well. I was with family until literally just now so I hope you'll forgive the late response.
I skip the evo chamber at the usual 7:00-ish mark and get it around 8:00 with the macro hatch. Since the very nature of the push means they will have chrono'd out +1 attack, it would probably be better to upgrade melee or something since once you hold this, you will be pushing back and killing him off.
I still make lings but its a lot less. You basically go PURE ling to throw him into zealot-production and then behind it you make nothing but pure roach which really hard-counters his zealots. Then he has a bunch of sentries with next to no energy left and the 3 immortals. With enough roaches, you should be able to pick them off or at least kill all the sentries so he can't protect his army anymore.
I've tried the 5:45 gas into lair -> speed, but I just don't like when speed finishes. I need to be able to prevent any possible proxy pylons and I feel that speed with slightly delayed lair (I mean its only 50 seconds or so from normal) deals with this fine.
Roach speed even with an 8:00 lair or so will come right around 10:30 and it lets you get more units out NOW and then boost the macro. The units are necessary because of the very weak and vulnerable move-out stage of the P from his natural. Then you invest a bit into roach speed, an evo and a macro hatch because you know around that later time is when he can actually have a warp prism to reinforce. You're matching his early unit moveout with early units and you're matching his macro-reinforcement timings with your own macro investment timings.
The truth is against Top 50 GMs, I've found that roaches in the field engagements are actually pretty damn bad because you really NEED them in mass to stop this. I know that because there's immortals and sentries it seems counter-intuitive, but if you make ENOUGH STUFF, you can stop it.
That being said, many strategies will be viable at the ladder level which is what this thread is for. So in my opinion, many styles need to be looked at and further testing is necessary on literally all of them. Far more extensive than what we have compiled so far.
This is only what I've found works at top GM on the NA server and also what worked vs Parting himself. Its up to you if you want to follow it or if you feel that an alternative style works. However when creating and testing these, its very important to note that unless you're playing an extremely powerful GM level Protoss, you will not be testing against a true immortal/sentry and will not be facing nearly the challenge that exists at the top.
It doesn't make them any less viable since most likely we're not all GMs and thusly won't be facing this sort of execution.
The beauty in this build is that while its essentially trying to metagame the immo/sentry all-in, it actually works incredibly well as a really freakin HARD counter to the immo/sentry expand too.
The reason for this should be obvious. Immo/sentry expand and all-in have similar move-out times. The all-in has 7 gates of pure reinforcement and nothing but army afterwards. The expand has 4-5 gates and makes army only if necessary. If you have enough units with proper timing to crush the all-in with 7 gates and more army, you can obliterate the expand. If you see a fast robo or something else very indicative of the all-in (seeing mass sentries, seeing immortals, etc) being aggressive is your best bet in any scenario though. Whether they move for a third or move for your third, you'll need units and fast.
On December 26 2012 21:56 Insoleet wrote: Do you have some replays to share with us ? I'd like to see how it works and try to do it by myself after..
I shared 2 replays a page or 2 ago but I'm trying to get a larger compilation of maybe 20-30 times of myself doing this. I haven't managed to get the guys together though since everyone is kinda doing stuff for the holidays at the moment, but as soon as we're all back in business I should have a GM replay pack of this style.
It's been discussed, but doesn't work against any other build. In fact, it's hard countered by a robo/twilight expand like Alicia used to do - it looks very similar, and takes a ~9:00 third.
In your post you say to start spines at 9:30 if he has no third at 10:00. Apart from the fact that this is impossible (benefit of the doubt; it's perfectly fine to assume that he IS doing sentry/immortal if you scout the fast 4 gas, quick robo with no obs, etc), 9:30 is about 1 minute too late to start spines.
Depending on the map, you can't actually get enough spines to defend. If you want pure spines, you need about 10 at every engagement point. On a map like entombed or daybreak this can work, but on ohana/cloud kingdom/TDA/condemned etc you can't get enough spines up to kill his army, especially after a zealot warpin or two to buffer. Immortals still demolish spines, and sentries still prevent the rest of your army from engaging.
It's a coinflip. If done perfectly, it CAN defend sentry/immortal on some maps. If he doesn't sentry/immortal all in, you lose (or are extremely far behind).
I'm a bigger fan of a Sen-style fast +1 carapace using mass ling and engaging midmap against the first moveout, using 4-5 spines at third and natural to give the bit of support needed to force Protoss away, as well as the style that Life/sCCrooked use. It's very strong and doesn't really matter on the map or what build your opponent does. It works great against a robo/twilight expand, or fake sentry/immortal all in into third.
If you know 100% sure that he's going AI immo/sentry you can on some maps try to plant a spine crawler forest but I've never really seen it work. The main problem is that you can't both plant enough spines at your third AND you natural so if the Toss has an observer or just scouts a bit with his warp prism you're screwed. If you spine wall your third he'll walk into your natural and its gg and if you spine walled your natural you lose your third and the Toss can safely take his third => gg.
In the youtube video posted in the thread you linked Suppy did defend with the aformentioned strategy but the Toss could have won easily with 3 immo, 8 stalkers & 8 sentry against the 8 spines & no army left on the third. Or if he went straight to the natural it would also have been over.
The only way Spine forest can work in my experience, is if you're on a large map with cross spots and you rush 3base muta. Then the walk distance gives you enough time to harass with muta's & plant a big enough forest. But I doubt good Toss (not the ones I play against :p) would go immo/sentry in those positions.
Jaedong on his stream made the mass spine thing work today on Antiga cross positions. He abandoned the 3rd the moment he saw the first Sentries moving out of the Protoss base, and delayed it a little bit by running his lings around. He never made Roaches so had more gas for Infestors. They came out just in time, barely.
The Protoss didn't attack into it like Parting, he killed a couple of spines at first, but gave up quickly and went back and took his 3rd. Then he teched to Colossus off 3 bases and did another push. As Toss was building his deathball, Jaedong retook his 3rd, moved his spines forward to protect it and kept trying to take a 4th in pretty much every position on the map, and the Toss kept denying it with Zealots and Warp Prism, but Jaedong succeeded in the end and I think it went unscouted.
By the time the push came JD barely had Broodlords out and was able to hold, and from there it was gg.
Mavvie, you are trying to be a smart ass by trying to twist my words in that post. Instead, I suggest you just check out the links with multiple tournament level replays discussed by Suppy himself. He is a pro gamer and has even beaten Parting with it even when Parting completely abused the map (antigua) where he elevated into the main to avoid the spines and still fails.
I should also mention that when you start so many spines, they will not all be done when the attack normally hits (around 10 min yes), which means they can be cancelled if toss takes a late third. The obvious reason (which you understand when you try this) is that you can't start 20+ spines all simultaneously at 9-930 or so, you just dont have that bank so you will have to spine up in rounds. This means that you start to spine up before you are 100 % sure in terms of identification, and if there is a late toss third you cancel all building spines, take a fourth and use the finished spines (8-10) to defend it + your third. In my book this is not a bad position.
Fact remains this defense is a good option, and far better than some of the ones in the OP's guide. It should be in the guide. That you prefer something else is quite frankly not really relevant in that context.
On December 30 2012 06:42 sitromit wrote: Jaedong on his stream made the mass spine thing work today on Antiga cross positions. He abandoned the 3rd the moment he saw the first Sentries moving out of the Protoss base, and delayed it a little bit by running his lings around. He never made Roaches so had more gas for Infestors. They came out just in time, barely.
The Protoss didn't attack into it like Parting, he killed a couple of spines at first, but gave up quickly and went back and took his 3rd. Then he teched to Colossus off 3 bases and did another push. As Toss was building his deathball, Jaedong retook his 3rd, moved his spines forward to protect it and kept trying to take a 4th in pretty much every position on the map, and the Toss kept denying it with Zealots and Warp Prism, but Jaedong succeeded in the end and I think it went unscouted.
By the time the push came JD barely had Broodlords out and was able to hold, and from there it was gg.
I saw this game also, it was aired today. Good variation of spine defense @nat based on sacking third while getting infestors. Only reason he was forced to do is that he identified the build TOO LATE, so much more impressive to recover so easily as he did.
On December 30 2012 06:57 LoveTool wrote: Mavvie, you are trying to be a smart ass by trying to twist my words in that post. Instead, I suggest you just check out the links with multiple tournament level replays discussed by Suppy himself. He is a pro gamer and has even beaten Parting with it even when Parting completely abused the map (antigua) where he elevated into the main to avoid the spines and still fails.
I should also mention that when you start so many spines, they will not all be done when the attack normally hits (around 10 min yes), which means they can be cancelled if toss takes a late third. The obvious reason (which you understand when you try this) is that you can't start 20+ spines all simultaneously at 9-930 or so, you just dont have that bank so you will have to spine up in rounds.
Fact remains this defense is a good option, and far better than some of the ones in the OP's guide. It should be in the guide. That you prefer something else is quite frankly not really relevant in that context.
I didn't twist your words, that's what you said. I also said that it's no big deal because it's perfectly reasonable to be fairly sure of what Protoss is doing before 9:00.
It worked in one game. Nobody else has tried it, and PartinG himself said in an interview that it wouldn't have worked if he hadn't attacked into Suppy. Also see Kraelog's post. It doesn't work reliably. There's other coinflip ways of dealing with it like banelings, burrow tactics, 2 base drop play (arguably not the worst against other builds), etc.
Nevertheless, I missed the links of Suppy discussing it and the replays so I'll check them out now.
On December 30 2012 06:57 LoveTool wrote: Mavvie, you are trying to be a smart ass by trying to twist my words in that post. Instead, I suggest you just check out the links with multiple tournament level replays discussed by Suppy himself. He is a pro gamer and has even beaten Parting with it even when Parting completely abused the map (antigua) where he elevated into the main to avoid the spines and still fails.
I should also mention that when you start so many spines, they will not all be done when the attack normally hits (around 10 min yes), which means they can be cancelled if toss takes a late third. The obvious reason (which you understand when you try this) is that you can't start 20+ spines all simultaneously at 9-930 or so, you just dont have that bank so you will have to spine up in rounds. This means that you start to spine up before you are 100 % sure in terms of identification, and if there is a late toss third you cancel all building spines, take a fourth and use the finished spines (8-10) to defend it + your third. In my book this is not a bad position.
Fact remains this defense is a good option, and far better than some of the ones in the OP's guide. It should be in the guide. That you prefer something else is quite frankly not really relevant in that context.
I'll ignore your silly ad hominem against Mavvie and just get straight to a response. Basically although there's lots of potentially viable ways to stop this, this is amongst the most costly and situation-dependent I've ever seen. I'm watching your youtube link right now but just realize that your timings mentioned are late.
** Double-EDIT **
I checked your youtube link to ChanmanV's episode.... where was the immo/sentry build? I literally saw 4 gate +1 pressures and 1 immo/sentry expand after a failed Warp Prism. Unless I completely missed it, 0 of the 4 replays were the immo/sentry all-in.
I just checked out your other link with eFragWinter. The game he showed for "immo/sentry all-in" was the P arriving at his base affter 11:00. That's incredibly bad timing and if I haven't stressed it enough with all my research here I'll say it again:
Timing is absolutely everything in PvZ and even moreso when using the immo/sentry all-in.
If the replay showcased does anything other than what Parting does down to the letter, its not a viable strategy since the version faced is beyond sub-optimal. If you're going to show something as a source, full 3 immortals and 9+ sentries better be moving out from his natural at 8:40-8:50. The first shots from his immo/sentry/gateway army also better be hitting your third absolutely no later than 9:40 and even that is generously late by almost 10 full seconds.
Anything and I really do mean anything that varies even a little from those timings should not be used as a basis for creating a counter. If you know how to stop the optimized version from the progamer and creator himself, everyone else is a bloody joke.
Well, I feel that you are actually. Read the post again AND check out the link. It is not my build, it is Suppy's. My post was written in like 10 minutes based on some notes I took while watching the episode and AFTER trying the build out. Its possible I've misrepresented what he does, but if I did I don't think it is significant.
What I actually wrote is I listed a number of individual hints that protoss is all inning w s/i, and how to respond. As zerg you will have to use this check list as a guide line to identify the all in. Suppy explains this in the link referenced. Basically, the more of the indicators that are identified, the higher the percentage that there is an all in coming. I did NOT write that you should not respond until 10 minutes. You can't play like that and Suppy does not suggest that either, of course. You start responding earlier and COMMIT once you are sure.
Obviously, no counter to this build is a magic pill. Sentry/Immortal is a very strong attack. This is one way to deal with it and as any counter to something strong it will have possible drawbacks. Any response needs practice to work well.
In other news. Another cool way I've seen to deal with it is spining the main ramp and nydusing, TLO did this a few times in a few games a couple of months ago. He said in an interview that this is now his standard response to that all in. Not sure if I've seen it broken down anywhere, would be interesting if someone knew more about that.
On December 30 2012 07:15 sCCrooked wrote: If the replay showcased does anything other than what Parting does down to the letter, its not a viable strategy since the version faced is beyond sub-optimal.
Anything and I really do mean anything that varies even a little from those timings should not be used as a basis for creating a counter. If you know how to stop the optimized version from the progamer and creator himself, everyone else is a bloody joke.
I guess, if you are a pro player planning to play Parting that is true. For most of us who are just normal players for fun, I'm not so sure.
You are probably right though, I guess I should not post here.
Well, I feel that you are actually. Read the post again AND check out the link. It is not my build, it is Suppy's. My post was written in like 10 minutes based on some notes I took while watching the episode and AFTER trying the build out. Its possible I've misrepresented what he does, but if I did I don't think it is significant.
What I actually wrote is I listed a number of individual hints that protoss is all inning w s/i, and how to respond. As zerg you will have to use this check list as a guide line to identify the all in. Suppy explains this in the link referenced. Basically, the more of the indicators that are identified, the higher the percentage that there is an all in coming. I did NOT write that you should not respond until 10 minutes. You can't play like that and Suppy does not suggest that either, of course. You start responding earlier and COMMIT once you are sure.
Obviously, no counter to this build is a magic pill. Sentry/Immortal is a very strong attack. This is one way to deal with it and as any counter to something strong it will have possible drawbacks. Any response needs practice to work well.
In other news. Another cool way I've seen to deal with it is spining the main ramp and nydusing, TLO did this a few times in a few games a couple of months ago. He said in an interview that this is now his standard response to that all in. Not sure if I've seen it broken down anywhere, would be interesting if someone knew more about that.
I actually have a note for your second link with suppy winning vs parting. Parting actually screwed up his build in this replay. He doesn't even move out until 9:30 or so. In his games vs Life, he was actually already firing shots onto Life's army at Life's natural at 9:30.
TLO's method is very similar to the spine method we used to use in base-trading before Parting figured out how to stop that too.
Basically he spines up as soon as the army would arrive at the third. Using all drones pulled from the third, he makes like 12-14 spines up at the top. He mines from his natural as long as the P will permit, and then pulls those drones as well making more spines and whatnot. Around the same time his third is being hit, he just loads all his roach/ling into the nydus and drops 1 worm in the main and 1 in the natural allowing him to kill both bases at once without having to worry about sentries forcefielding ramps.
We already knew this one worked though and then we saw some P actually kill the third and intead of going up to the spines, they warped in units at home to kill the worms that were still in the process of building and just went home having done all the damage (3rd gone and ALL drones made into spines is the same as killing them off) he needed to do. Then P just took a third and continued as if nothing had happened.
*EDIT*
I guess, if you are a pro player planning to play Parting that is true. For most of us who are just normal players for fun, I'm not so sure.
You are probably right though, I guess I should not post here.
That's why we added all sorts of methods to the OP so you have a variety. We realize P players aren't Parting or they'd all be at the top like he is. Most of them will be vulnerable since they haven't the sheer experience that Parting does when he covers himself upon moving out.
I encourage you to post here, but don't tell us that you have some all-fix or something and not expect us to look it over. There's bound to be holes in almost every example and we realize this, but its important that you mention those shortcomings of your examples in your presentation of them.
As sCCrooked already explained, there are sufficient blind! counters to the immo/sentry allin. Pooling +1k mins to make mass spines is one of them. The extremely risky 2base muta someone else posted in another thread is also good. Baneling carpet bombs actually works incredibly well etc...
The problem is that these are BLIND counters. Unless you decide at 5mins you want to defend a possible Immo AI you can't get ready for it. Whenever you are ready with baneling bombs, Spine forests with nydus, mass hydra etc.. and the Protoss decide to just take his third, you are screwed. Even if you see 2 immortals & 5+ sentries you can't be sure he isn't taking a passive third whilest anticipating the Zerg messing up his economy by overcompensating the defence against an immo/sentry allin. You will be miles behind on tech which means a pre-BL push will utterly own you since your infestors/BL are delayed extremely and your countermeasures to the phantom immo push are useless.
Which is why most highlevel posters here are still experimenting with ling/roach builds since when the Toss decides to expand, you can actually do something besides cursing....
I just a small question, but the idea of getting a fast gas after taking the second base like 3'30-4', but only putting a single worker mining gas so you can still have a third base at ~ the same timing has ever been explored in ZvP? I see TSL zerg doing so in ZvT after Speedling research from time to times, protoss tend to do like the 2 at each gysers but I don't think i ever seen it in ZvP. Has it ever been tested? In theory, you could get Lair tech out in times with good management of the gas timing, and maybe starting with one worker, then switch to 2 worker... etc. I know this has a cost, but the question would be to know if the cost are 'acceptable' and still allow to take a early third?
On December 30 2012 11:20 Mavvie wrote: Can you tell me what I did wrong in this game? http://drop.sc/289146
I honestly don't know what I should've done differently...apart from later roach warren, but it looked like he was going for 4g +1 D:
Few mistakes I noticed 1. Your macro till 8 min was medicore 2. You overdroned a bit, there is no need to go for more than 60 drones if toss is stuck on 2 bases 3. Your macro hatchery should be a bit earlier (8 min) 4. All the time you were floating a lot of minerals, this is mainly because you overdroned (ofc injects could be better as well) but you could easily put down 10 spines when you saw him moving out, that would do the trick
Also in this game you can see what is the problem with the pure lings to delay the immo all in. When fighting a good toss you will end up losing most of them for 3-4 ffs and buying yourself 10 secs, which is basically nothing. Once the toss gets to your third you are almost guaranteed to lose the fight there if he does not fuck up. Ah and when pulling drones to defend make sure they are in front of your roaches, they are supposed to tank dmg.
On December 30 2012 10:31 Vanadiel wrote: I just a small question, but the idea of getting a fast gas after taking the second base like 3'30-4', but only putting a single worker mining gas so you can still have a third base at ~ the same timing has ever been explored in ZvP? I see TSL zerg doing so in ZvT after Speedling research from time to times, protoss tend to do like the 2 at each gysers but I don't think i ever seen it in ZvP. Has it ever been tested? In theory, you could get Lair tech out in times with good management of the gas timing, and maybe starting with one worker, then switch to 2 worker... etc. I know this has a cost, but the question would be to know if the cost are 'acceptable' and still allow to take a early third?
Sure, that was used even in ZvP with Nestea's muta build. I don't recommend it as the timing on this build (sentry/immortal) has changed since then.
I feel like the best way to stop this push is the "overpower with roach ling" while keeping your army as close to their base as you possibly can to bait forcefields and slow the push down.
It's risky to do because if you don't pay attention for a few seconds you can get all your shit forcefielded and just die but I feel like this is the correct option (excluding map specific counters AKA suppys mass spine crawler on antiga)
On December 30 2012 11:20 Mavvie wrote: Can you tell me what I did wrong in this game? http://drop.sc/289146
I honestly don't know what I should've done differently...apart from later roach warren, but it looked like he was going for 4g +1 D:
If he's going for 4g +1, you'd see constant chronos on his cyber core. Another problem was that you actually sent your first-sent overlord back across his natural and you even clicked on his robo, but didn't make the connection unless you thought he was going for the "sentries-loaded-into-the-warp-prism-and-then-he-ffs-the-ramp-and-keeps-warping-in-stuff-to-kill-your-main-build." in which case you should've just been prowling for a warp prism to move out.
If you see no prism by 8:00, you're good to go assuming its an immortal/sentry something.
As was already mentioned, the supply blocks from the lost overlord and the early roach warren really killed you. At the 7:20 mark, you were still stuck at 54/54 supply waiting on those ovies to pop.
Basically your build opening kinda went wrong somewhere and it really cost you. If you hadn't made any mistakes, you should've had approximately 94-110 supply of which about 30-40 are speedlings (speed already done) could be touching the front of his forge/gate/pylon wall. His moveout was with way less sentries than he was supposed to.
I mean look at timer mark 9:23. This guy's moveout was actually pretty close to on-time so he's pretty decent in timings, but look at what he has. 4 sentries, 3 immortals all exposed away from the wall and a super-out-of-position stalker down at the xel'naga tower. Can you imagine what 40 speedlings crashing into that would be like instead of those poor 6 leading lings who just arrived to be shot in the faces?
Just tighten up your build and when you're looking at your overlord, you even saw a gas going down at 6:00 and a robo, make sure you actually process what you're seeing. That's pretty fast and just screams "SOUL TRAIN A-COMIN'!!!".
sCCrooked, your build helped me a lot. I now manage to hold most of the immortal sentries all in.
However, i still have some troubles against delayed immortal/sentry. When the guy doesnt go out at 9:00 but at 11:00, with a big army. I feel like my 200/200 ling roach isnt enough to hold, and then as i did only build army, i dont have any infestor.
So, basically, what do you do in case of delayed immortal/sentry ?
On January 10 2013 05:51 Insoleet wrote: sCCrooked, your build helped me a lot. I now manage to hold most of the immortal sentries all in.
However, i still have some troubles against delayed immortal/sentry. When the guy doesnt go out at 9:00 but at 11:00, with a big army. I feel like my 200/200 ling roach isnt enough to hold, and then as i did only build army, i dont have any infestor.
So, basically, what do you do in case of delayed immortal/sentry ?
If you are maxed, stuck on roach ling, and his pushed has been delayed and you feel you don't have time to tech safely to infestors you should do in this order of priority : - get +1 carapace if you went +1 range attack first - get a second macro hatch - make spines
His first attack should kill your army, but with the extra larvae you should be able to hold, remember by 18min his main will be mined out so you just have to hold and deny an eventual third
On January 10 2013 05:51 Insoleet wrote: sCCrooked, your build helped me a lot. I now manage to hold most of the immortal sentries all in.
However, i still have some troubles against delayed immortal/sentry. When the guy doesnt go out at 9:00 but at 11:00, with a big army. I feel like my 200/200 ling roach isnt enough to hold, and then as i did only build army, i dont have any infestor.
So, basically, what do you do in case of delayed immortal/sentry ?
If you are maxed, stuck on roach ling, and his pushed has been delayed and you feel you don't have time to tech safely to infestors you should do in this order of priority : - get +1 carapace if you went +1 range attack first - get a second macro hatch - make spines
His first attack should kill your army, but with the extra larvae you should be able to hold, remember by 18min his main will be mined out so you just have to hold and deny an eventual third
Ok i'll try this idea next time i encouter this, thanks.
It seems alright, IMO the strength of ling/hydra/queen defense is being able to deny reinforcements. Speedlings (like sCCrooked outlined) can kill many probes/pylons, then the hydra/queen can snipe the warp prism and focus down the sentries/immortals.
I'm playing around with a heavier-gas opener so that I can squeeze in +1 carapace in time...You don't have enough gas for roach/hydra, and you need lings to not die to zealots, so +1 carapace after speed+lair is worth it. I'll be experimenting around with it more, hopefully my ladder opponents do it a lot
Hi, about Hydralisk in ZvP, I watched the series between Life and Parting at GSL and I saw Life doing it during both series, he goes for standard fast 3 hatch, 2 gaz at 6' (or a little less), then 2 more gaz at 7' and an evo chamber, goes for Lair ASAP then ling speed and then +1 range attack, at 8' the last 2 gaz. He goes for more drone than usual (63 drones if I remember correctly), skip the roach warren and hydra den as soon as possible. It seems to me that it was design to beat an immortal sentry all in but Parting never did it, so I don't know how he was planning to defend it ( if he sacrifice the third, spine?... etc ) but he would have 15+ hydralisk and a bunch of speedling when the immortal sentry would hit.
Nice part of the build is that it allows for to pressure the third very hard against an air opening and even against robot it's really strong, and then after reducing the AA count he goes for mutalisk which was deadly to Parting. But it's obviously weak to Gates all in and 2 bases collossi like Parting did on cloud Kingdom.
The build Life did was basically designed to counter Parting, and most greedy Protosses for that matter, in every way, and I imagine it would beat most immortal pushes depending on positioning and one's own skill
On February 24 2013 16:19 RParks42 wrote: The build Life did was basically designed to counter Parting, and most greedy Protosses for that matter, in every way, and I imagine it would beat most immortal pushes depending on positioning and one's own skill
Yeah, I played with it quite a bit since and it's really really strong to be honest (except against gateway all in which you should be able to scout and some weird 2 base colosse), but since Parting never really tried to performed an immo sentry all in, I was curious what was the plan of Life and if he put spine and so on. The build of Life gives 15 hydra + ling at 9'40 to defend the first wave which is enough I guess.