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Flash's Concussive 3CC
Anyone who was watching the OSL Auction All-Kill over the past little while saw KT Rolster’s Flash, the Ultimate Weapon Himself, destroy NSH’s San in a macro game that was never really close. The build Flash deployed to take on San is an interesting one that I haven’t seen before, but I think shows a lot of promise as either a ladder build or a mind-game to throw in the best-of-X, because it shows the Protoss something that doesn’t line up with ‘traditional’ TvP macro plays to start, and then races ahead while the Protoss misreads.
Changelog
+ Show Spoiler +September 1, 2012: added a more specific mention of Voidray all-ins to the Conditions section. Also added a replay which demonstrates the sting of the build (the initial suggestion of quick Barracks pressure) to great effect.
October 3, 2012: added a discussion of the supply block situation between 5:15-5:45, and a discussion of 4-gates as a result; also added a Korean-language YouTube VoD for anyone who wants to see the execution by Flash without paying for it.
The Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +10 Depot 12 Rax *** Flash starts and abandons Depot #2 to wall-off @13 followed by resuming Rax; if so, finish Depot #2 before scouting (this allows him to deny a late scout and trap an early one) 14 Refinery (~2:15) 16 OC + Marine (Marine will take you to 17 supply) 17 TL on Barracks (~3:15) *** once 75 gas AFTER starting TL, pull all SCVs out of gas *** Marauder and Concussive when TL finishes *** after Marauder, get only Marines 22-25 (4:05-4:45) -> start 2x CC in main, put SCVs back in gas *** special note: if you don't queue up units/SCVs unnecessarily and build a Supply Depot after the 3rd CC, you will get supply blocked for about 15-16 in-game seconds... this is a function of how greedy the build is, and is unavoidable unless you cut SCVs, so don't freak out*** further note: if you sense imminent danger and want to build an emergency Bunker before the two Barracks and the next Depot, the supply block will last 10 seconds longer, about 25 in-game seconds (again, this is unavoidable because you're getting the 3 CCs so stupidly fast) *** if you go Flash's route, a basic 4-gate will be very hard to stop because of the delayed Bunker as well as the greediness of the build; scout very well and be absolutely sure to convince the opponent that it is 2-rax if you're worried 2-rax Concussive? Think again. 28-30 (5:15-5:30) -> 2 Barracks, then Bunker at front (~6:00) *** note that this is much later than a typical 4-gate hits; Flash is relying on his continual pokes out and back with the 1 Concussive Marauder and 4-5 Marines to deny the forward pylons and possibly take down the Sentry or Stalker as they try to gain position *** also note that if you get fortunate and take out a Zealot/Stalker poke utilizing your Marine/Marauder force, a 4-gate is pretty much dead in the water because the Protoss has ZERO map control *** if your scout sees the Protoss chrono’ing out a Zealot Stalker or 3-Stalker Rush, you can swap the 2 Barracks and Bunker relative timings, getting the Bunker first, then the 2 Barracks (note that your Stim research start time will not be as clean with this ordering change) Note how little the Protoss can do to scout without Observers. Get Stim when affordable (~6:30) -> 2nd Refinery in main, then 2x Reactor on additional Rax Factory @100 gas (~7:30) -> 2x Refinery @natural expo (keep up SCV/Marine production, delay the second natural Refinery if necessary to make that happen; macro is the key to this build) Starport @100% Factory, Reactor (~8:30) *** about now Stim will be close to finishing; start Combat Shields after Stim is done as long as it doesn’t delay Medivacs or other crucial tech 2x E-bay @100% Starport (~9:15-9:30) *** push out with Marine/Marauder force in advance of Medivacs, rally Medivacs to bio force *** land 3rd CC @ appropriate location *** start 1-1 immediately when E-bays finish (you will be ahead of anything except a super greedy quick 3-base upgraded Warp Gate unit play) 2x Barracks when 3rd CC moves out to land *** 2x Tech Lab when completed (conditional on Protoss tech and unit choices - if Colossi, Marauders, if HT or mass Gateway units, Marines [1 TL + 1 Reactor]) Add 3x Barracks as 1-1 is finishing *** add-ons as appropriate (TL for heavy Colossi/Stalker count, Marine for Charge Zealot/HT force) Macro ALL the things! Take a 4th as you are approaching maxed supply. Keep adding Barracks and Starports - you want as much re-max capacity as possible to deal with tech switches.
Continuations
+ Show Spoiler +This is a very straightforward build: unlike certain 1-1-1 structures, there’s very little variance here. Early Concussive Shells to shut down Protoss aggression, quick 3CC for an economic lead, then ride the upgrade/macro edge to a win with overwhelming numbers and sustainability.
The critical stage of this build (as with almost all early expand or bio plays in TvP) comes right around the 10-11 minute Medivac window. Here is where you will see the Protoss tech of choice: is it Colossi, High Templars, or the slightly less common Archon/Chargelot mix? Adjust your tech accordingly. Assuming you haven’t missed the timing of getting your third and gases 5 and 6, you will have plenty of resources to immediately get a second Starport up for Colossi OR the Ghost Academy (for Templar tech - including Archons).
Don’t feel that an attack is necessary to win right then. Such an early third base will mean that you have a huge minerals edge, which translates into a lot of Barracks and a lot of Marines. It’s quite possible that if your Protoss opponent doesn’t realize what’s happened quickly enough, he won’t take a fast third and go for a more safe 10-12 minute third base. This is asking for death against a fast 3CC play, because you will get the Vikings or Ghosts, and you WILL be able to take a fourth much faster than he does. You can even multi-drop at this point, all the while building more and more Barracks and Starports at home to keep him on the back foot until you can crush him with multiple waves. In the Flash game below, notice how Flash floats 2k/1k while at maxed supply, and is down to 0 within a minute of a big fight wiping out both armies. That sort of remax capability combined with the early eco lead means a lot of won games if he doesn’t catch on.
Some Conditions
+ Show Spoiler +What if Protoss 4-gates me? A 4-gate is going to hit before this build puts down the Bunker. There are two ways to go about neutralizing a 4-gate with this build. 1. Actively use the Marauder plus 3-5 Marines to patrol the area near your base and check for poking Stalkers, Zealots, and eliminating any forward pylons. This is how Flash handled any Protoss pokes in the reference game below. Of course, if Protoss builds a few Sentries further away and walks towards you, you may still be in trouble, but I have a hard time believing Protoss would try a 4-gate against Concussive Shell. 2. Swap the Bunker order with your Barracks 2 and 3. This is ultra safe, but will still be only completing RIGHT as the 4-gate gets there. You really would need to combine scouting Marauder pokes with this, and only do it if you are convinced that some sort of Warpgate all-in is coming. Most times the threat of Marauder aggression should convince the Protoss to stay home. If you build a Depot to minimize the supply block situation, this becomes pretty hard to hold even with the earlier Bunker of option 2. Just be careful with the scouting. What if the Protoss 3-gate pressures me? 3-gate pressure (for an example see here) will come in at about 6:15-7:00, depending on the map and the Protoss’ ability to place a forward pylon. This is what makes the Marauder explorations out front so crucial. Imagine you have 1 Marauder and 5 Marines at 6:15 (perfectly reasonable with this build) poking around. Let’s say the Protoss went super safe and only tried to place the forward pylon with support from his intial 2 Zealots and the 2 Sentries that followed it (with the Stalker soon to arrive). *I make it that specific because you probably can find any dangerous forward pylons earlier with the Marauder pokes I was mentioning. If you are poking sufficiently with the Marauder force and see this, what will the outcome be? 2 Zealot and 2 Sentries get flattened by just 1 Marauder and 5 Marines. No contest. And in that situation, all you have to do is take out the Sentries and retreat away to the Bunker, because if he doesn’t have at least 2 Forcefields, he can’t break the front, which is what the true sting of 3-gate pressure is. What about a 2-base 6-gate all-in? That only hits at about 9:00 or so, and hopefully you will have seen some sign of it. Early warning signs include no robo but 3 gates present and a very high Sentry count with few Stalkers in the early game. If you get a good scout or a lucky Scan, you must drop additional Bunkers and keep maybe 1 Marine near the front to spot the incoming onslaught, giving you the crucial time to pull SCVs to the front of the Bunkers so that Forcefielding the workers away also blocks the Zealots from the Bunkers. You should have enough units to defend if you aren’t careless with them, and if the Protoss does happen to kill a bunch of workers but doesn’t kill you, you still have an excellent chance due to the 3 Orbital Commands pumping SCVs to replenish those you lost. What about Nexus-first builds? Nexus first is probably going to be very difficult for the Protoss, because the quick Concussive Shells allows you to put on pressure at the front, probably getting some Probe kills along the way. Just put light pressure on the front, kill a couple of units, and get as many Probe kills as you can. 3-stalker rush? While rare in TvP, this needs to be identified pronto, because 3 Stalkers will come to your base when you have 1 Marauder and 3-4 Marines, which is a fight that will be almost impossible to win without exceptional positioning and timing. At best if you don’t identify it, your Bunker will be starting on the low ground, and you will have to probably cancel it and sack the SCV while retreating to the high ground and continuing to pump out units. The Protoss will probably end up behind IF you can deflect it. Voidray all-in? Well, buckle up, because this one is going to be hard. You have to get only Marines now, and hope that you can survive until Medivacs. Prioritize: keep units alive, and put up extra Bunkers and Turrets when you can. Don't let the Voidrays camp your production. Stim and Medivacs will solve your air problem, but you have to survive until then. Good luck.
Logic
+ Show Spoiler +Getting the early Concussive Shell Marauder completely shuts down any sort of Zealot/Stalker poke, and allows you to delay your Bunkers long enough to start the 3rd CC and get two more Barracks down. In addition, unless you let a Probe inside your base while the 3 CCs are building, your Protoss opponent MUST respect the possibility of a 2-rax or some sort of 1-1-1 play, proactively shutting down any quick 3-Nexus play. While a 4-gate will still hit with a bit of punch (and double proxy-gate will probably kill this because of a delayed scout and quick tech lab), the early CS really helps take down any Stalkers involved in a potential 4-gate, as well as slowing Zealots down to kill them or at least force more damage before they reach your defensive Bunkers.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/246145 - Here is the build in action on Shakuras Plateau. My opponent goes for a Colossi mix and a slow third, which prevents me doing initial damage, but means that my economy/production lead ends up crushing him with MMM plus Vikings. http://drop.sc/246146 - Another game on Tal'Darim Altar (which is far from the most ideal map for this build due to the entry to the natural and the difficult wall-off). My opponent goes for light Colossus and then tech switches to High Templar. I catch his third, but he pins my army and wipes it. Unfortunately for him, the massive Barracks count lets too many Ghosts EMP him into oblivion. http://drop.sc/246147 - This is a game where I discovered how deadly a 3-Stalker Rush can be against this. My opponent gets a lucky 9-scout, then makes the snap decision to go for the three Stalkers, which, due to my failure to accurately read my scouting information and switch building ordering accordingly, leads to a painfully quick exit. http://drop.sc/246308 - A beautiful demonstration of the potential ability of this build to throw off traditional or standard Protoss thought patterns. My opponent does a very normal 13-gate intending 1-gate FE, sending his initial Zealot to poke. His Probe is positioned to drop the Nexus, but he spots the Marauder, and instantly reacts by dropping another 3 gates, going up to a defensive 4, THEN expanding. This delays his forge, Robo tech, and puts him too far behind economically to recover with the slower advent of Colossi.
References/VODs
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.twitch.tv/ogn_star2/b/330240019?t=44m59s - the OSL game between Flash and San. Key features of note are the brilliance of Flash's initial infantry maneuvers to suggest more heavy pressure, and San's decision to concentrate on Archon/Colossus rather than Colossus/High Templar. OSL has since changed their policy regarding their stream channel and you must subscribe to watch this now. - this is the Korean-language version of the VoD, and is free to watch.
Further Discussion
I welcome feedback on this! What are the Protoss options when not being able to scout this? Is the almost-dead build of Voidray all-in effective against a faster tech play like this? What about 3-gate Robo Immortal busts? How can the Protoss maximize their chances to kill with pressure, and how can Terrans hide the quick 3rd while still being economical and safe against conventional builds?
Special Thanks
ChillPhiju (for finding a free-to-watch Korean language VoD of this which I would not have thought to look for) and MateShade (for yeoman work in highlighting the importance of the 'supply block moment' as well as testing a couple of variations to double-check whether or not I was wrong - which of course I was) have done excellent work in making sure this guide is the best it can be!
All the other posters who have continued to bring up questions that I have to answer via more testing and laddering! You guys are all awesome!
Other Guides
+ Show Spoiler +Bomber's 1-rax FE 1 gas - A guide I wrote on the then-new refined 1-rax FE popularized by Startale's Bomber at the Red Bull Battlegrounds.
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Thanks for the write up. I really liked the build when I saw it, and you pretty much did all the hard work of having to copy it.
Stomp Stomp Stomp!
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Wow awesome, great point about the lack of scouting thing at the beginning. It's good to have more than just the standard 1 rax expo build. Now Protoss will have to be a little more careful.
Thanks for the guide!
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Damn now i got à standard tvp build! Nice writeup!
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Looks like an awesome variation on the 1 rax concussive FE, designed for the modern macro-heavy metagame. Welll-written!
I'd like to say, though, it'd be much, much more legible if you used anchors instead of spoilers. Clicking a million spoilers makes it difficult to use Find and the like to hop through this guide.
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How well would this build do against an immortal all in?
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Looks great, can't wait to try this build out on ladder ^^. Marauder with concussive really counters all scouting and is also really helpful for holding early pressure.
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Haha...its been ages since the last time we saw a TvX guide....thanks Jazzman.
Makes me think about doing 1 rax Conc FE...sounds good because Protoss are too reliant with their initial stalkers....
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tried it and demolished! like it so far :D
Toss went on the defensive after he saw gas, thats just good for us.
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I also found Flash's build very sexy because it allows to play greedy while giving false informations to our opponent. He doesn't really know what to expect, if it's a 2 rax marines marauders pressure or not.
I'm glad you've made this thread
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Netherlands6142 Posts
Excellent guide :o Wanna put it on Liquipedia? (you'll get coins!)
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Good write up. However this seems to me just like the oldschool marrauder expand build with more greed. Big weaknesses in this build i would see are blink stalker allins and void ray allins. These should be extremly hard to hold since you have very few units and your main defense is in the front of the natrual. With this build i would stay in the main everytime i see 2 gas with 3 probes and don´t see an expandtion, because this makes allins a lot easier to defend.
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This seems exactly like Flash style of thinking to me. The build itself seems solid, allowing early aggression transitioning into heavy macro, and has heavy potential to mess with your opponents head (how many players are going to think after seeing a marauder that their opponent is going quick 3 CC? Particularly the taking scvs off gas after u get exactly how much u need is what impresses me the most.
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I am so glad someone finally made this. If I was a Terran player I would of made it myself.
As a Protoss player, Flash's build seems pure genius. He makes The 2 marines that follows the marauders makes it look exactly like a 2rax, which forces you to slow down on economy to hold the push. But behind it flash double CC's, putting him ahead in economy. And it's safe due to early stim.
It was just fantastic to watch.
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Instead of taking all 3 miners off gas, have you thought about including the possibility of keeping 1 in there for continuous marauder production, or get tech out a little faster should you choose to keep building marines too?
The strength of a build like this I really think is in the variations possibly when opening 14 gas/tech lab rax . You can go for 2 rax, hellion/marauder, marauder into cloak banshees or the build described in the OP. Not sure how much I like this exact build as a strict 'standard' TvP opening.
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It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it.
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On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote: It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it.
reactor rax expand does not indicate a 1/1/1...
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On September 01 2012 22:21 Kaitokid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote: It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it. reactor rax expand does not indicate a 1/1/1...
He means that if protoss scouts a reactor rax and nothing else then, from the protoss perspective, it could be a 111, (marine/tank/banshee or marine/hellion/medivac) or 2 rax, or maybe the terran just expanded behind it.
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United States4883 Posts
I really like this idea, this is a cool way to open up. I think it's really far too complicated for anyone below masters (including myself) to execute flawlessly, but it's really really neat. Leave it up to Flash to come up with a build where he can tech, attack, and expand all at the same time.
I might try this out a few times.
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On September 01 2012 22:55 Absentia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 22:21 Kaitokid wrote:On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote: It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it. reactor rax expand does not indicate a 1/1/1... He means that if protoss scouts a reactor rax and nothing else then, from the protoss perspective, it could be a 111, (marine/tank/banshee or marine/hellion/medivac) or 2 rax, or maybe the terran just expanded behind it.
Except that you have a Browder with C. Shells roaming the map and deny any form of scouting.
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United Kingdom31934 Posts
Seems really cool will have to watch replays and vods and try it myself perhaps
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3 gate void ray would insta kill this. That doesn't make this a bad build by any means, void ray all ins are fairly scarce these days. Again, I feel like what tasteless used to say is really the truth. If you see a tech lab opener on the barracks just go void rays, I think it really is that simple.
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I loved this build when Flash did it, really makes sense and is fluid. I've only tried it once or twice but I was playing terribly and died because I made terrible engagement choices vs a 2 base immortal/stalker/zealot allin and because I decided to pressure when I had no idea if he'd expanded or not.
Definitely worth trying some more; I love early conc shell builds but stopped doing them when they fell out of fashion. Thanks for the guide
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To those saying 3 gate void ray will kill this, are you serious? Of course there is no perfect build, there must be few/some counters to any build....
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On September 01 2012 23:45 AnomalySC2 wrote: 3 gate void ray would insta kill this. That doesn't make this a bad build by any means, void ray all ins are fairly scarce these days. Again, I feel like what tasteless used to say is really the truth. If you see a tech lab opener on the barracks just go void rays, I think it really is that simple.
Hmm, that's an interesting point. I think you're right that Voidrays smash this build in general, but of course if you happen to scout a proxied Stargate your map control will allow you to just go kill that building. Like I said in the guide, the Voidray all-in is very strong against this, but it is so close to a dead build (I haven't seen it two months or more on ladder) that it may be less of a threat nowadays.
I don't have any real solution for that simply because there are things which every build is a little weak against. Voidrays happens to be a weak point for this one.
Regarding another question about Immortal all-ins: assuming you scout properly it should be holdable. The three Barracks will be up in time and you'll have a little bit to see it coming and put up additional Bunkers. Basically treat it like a standard Rax -> 3OC versus Immortal all-ins. It will be tough and require good reflexes, decision-making, and scouting reads. Concussive Shell should help out a lot, especially if you squeeze out another Marauder or two to fit in the Bunkers.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On September 02 2012 00:09 dynwar7 wrote: To those saying 3 gate void ray will kill this, are you serious? Of course there is no perfect build, there must be few/some counters to any build....
FWIW this build CAN hold 3 gate VR all-in if you scout it. You just don't make the third CC, make bunkers and more barracks, and treat it like a normal 1 rax conc shell expo. It won't be easy-- VR guy will have an advantage-- but it'll still be totally possible to hold.
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On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote: It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it.
oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in.
It's true that this is weak to Voidray all-ins. However, Voidray all-in is so much worse (in modern PvT) against many of the other standard builds that Terrans have at their disposal that I have a hard time believing that many Protoss will make the instant reaction to go for it. In addition, this is NOT supposed to be a replacement standard ladder build (although it works fine in Diamond League where the reactions are less precise and timely all around). It's very good as something to mix in a BoX, where you can throw many different looks at your opponent. Imagine doing a 2-rax all-in and winning in the first game, THEN pulling this out. What does your opponent do? He HAS to respect the possibility of 2-rax, so he'll play safe, but then ends up way behind the 3CC. That's the money place for this build.
So, try it and if you find some huge holes in it with ladder play, please let me know so I can tweak the build or add some cautions to it. :D
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On September 02 2012 05:44 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote: It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it. oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in. Thing is, Protoss no longer go 3 gate expands upon scouting fast Marauders, 1 gate exe can handle any fast Concussive pressure just fine at high level.
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On September 02 2012 00:09 dynwar7 wrote: To those saying 3 gate void ray will kill this, are you serious? Of course there is no perfect build, there must be few/some counters to any build....
The issue lies in can the counter be done re-actively? If Protoss needs to blindly go 3 gate void ray to counter this, and if that is a generally bad strat that loses against other builds, then it is not a big issue. If protoss can scout the tech lab barracks and re-actively go voidrays (as was mentioned earlier in this thread) then it is a big deal. Being that I don't play protoss or terran, I can't comment on if it can be done re-actively.
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On September 02 2012 05:52 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 05:44 Jazzman88 wrote:On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote: It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it. oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in. Thing is, Protoss no longer go 3 gate expands upon scouting fast Marauders, 1 gate exe can handle any fast Concussive pressure just fine at high level.
I agree in general; occasionally, however, you still get overreactions just because 2-rax isn't played as much nowadays, and that and proxy Marauder are the only forms of fast Concussive play that Protoss players have really been dealing with in the past. In addition, if he's expecting pressure, he is spending his gas on lots of Sentries and Stalkers, NOT on crucial tech. Simple Zealots won't beat 2-rax: the Protoss would NEED Sentries or sufficient Stalkers if he has more than one Gateway, and delaying the tech is just fine for this build. Faster upgrades than the Protoss AND delayed Colossi/High Templar? Yes please. :D
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On September 01 2012 16:28 Pholon wrote: Excellent guide :o Wanna put it on Liquipedia? (you'll get coins!)
do it ! for the coinzz !
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On September 02 2012 06:05 kiklion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:09 dynwar7 wrote: To those saying 3 gate void ray will kill this, are you serious? Of course there is no perfect build, there must be few/some counters to any build.... The issue lies in can the counter be done re-actively? If Protoss needs to blindly go 3 gate void ray to counter this, and if that is a generally bad strat that loses against other builds, then it is not a big issue. If protoss can scout the tech lab barracks and re-actively go voidrays (as was mentioned earlier in this thread) then it is a big deal. Being that I don't play protoss or terran, I can't comment on if it can be done re-actively.
I believe it IS possible to do a Voidray build reactively against this, but not ideal for the Protoss (the proxy pylon needs to go down by about 24 supply, and the Stargate by 27). However, because even 24 is an early proxy, you would need to scout this very quickly in order to make that choice (it's the third Pylon for the Protoss). The ideal Voidray all-in does a 12 Gateway (I believe) which is not the standard it used to be in PvT (13 Gateway is more normal). In addition, if you were planning on a 1-gate FE up until the point when you saw Marauders, you're likely spending Chronoboost on Probes and not on the Cyber Core or Stalkers just yet.
As a further point, since Voidray all-ins usually use proxied Stargates, the Terran player has the potential to find and kill that Stargate because of the map control that Concussive Marauders that early will afford. With the SCV scout after the second Depot is done, the Terran will spot that something is up. If I were to see no Nexus, no additional Gateways just yet, and Chrono on the Warp Gate, I would start aggressively hunting for proxies and dropping safety Bunkers. At worst, you could probably cancel the 3rd CC to get additional Barracks and Bunkers up. I believe (if my memory and searching has not failed me) that Voidray all-ins hit by 7:00 or so. If you smell it coming even a little, it's possible to keep building Bunkers, forgo the Reactors on your Barracks entirely, and just crank out the Marines as much as possible.
So, can it be done reactively to try and kill this? Possible (but I haven't yet had someone face this with Voidray all-ins, so I don't know for sure). Is it going to be an ideal choice? Debatable, because the metagame of 1-gate FE makes Voidray all-ins less appetizing as follow ups. Bottom line - your Protoss opponent needs an early scout and good proxy placement to make a Voidray all-in reactively against this. As soon as someone has replays of being pummeled by Voidrays using this build, I'll be able to take a better look.
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NVM it's totally different.
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I feel like a gate robo gate into 2 immortal aggression can completely counter this build.
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On September 02 2012 06:53 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 06:05 kiklion wrote:On September 02 2012 00:09 dynwar7 wrote: To those saying 3 gate void ray will kill this, are you serious? Of course there is no perfect build, there must be few/some counters to any build.... The issue lies in can the counter be done re-actively? If Protoss needs to blindly go 3 gate void ray to counter this, and if that is a generally bad strat that loses against other builds, then it is not a big issue. If protoss can scout the tech lab barracks and re-actively go voidrays (as was mentioned earlier in this thread) then it is a big deal. Being that I don't play protoss or terran, I can't comment on if it can be done re-actively. I believe it IS possible to do a Voidray build reactively against this, but not ideal for the Protoss (the proxy pylon needs to go down by about 24 supply, and the Stargate by 27). However, because even 24 is an early proxy, you would need to scout this very quickly in order to make that choice (it's the third Pylon for the Protoss). The ideal Voidray all-in does a 12 Gateway (I believe) which is not the standard it used to be in PvT (13 Gateway is more normal). In addition, if you were planning on a 1-gate FE up until the point when you saw Marauders, you're likely spending Chronoboost on Probes and not on the Cyber Core or Stalkers just yet. As a further point, since Voidray all-ins usually use proxied Stargates, the Terran player has the potential to find and kill that Stargate because of the map control that Concussive Marauders that early will afford. With the SCV scout after the second Depot is done, the Terran will spot that something is up. If I were to see no Nexus, no additional Gateways just yet, and Chrono on the Warp Gate, I would start aggressively hunting for proxies and dropping safety Bunkers. At worst, you could probably cancel the 3rd CC to get additional Barracks and Bunkers up. I believe (if my memory and searching has not failed me) that Voidray all-ins hit by 7:00 or so. If you smell it coming even a little, it's possible to keep building Bunkers, forgo the Reactors on your Barracks entirely, and just crank out the Marines as much as possible. So, can it be done reactively to try and kill this? Possible (but I haven't yet had someone face this with Voidray all-ins, so I don't know for sure). Is it going to be an ideal choice? Debatable, because the metagame of 1-gate FE makes Voidray all-ins less appetizing as follow ups. Bottom line - your Protoss opponent needs an early scout and good proxy placement to make a Voidray all-in reactively against this. As soon as someone has replays of being pummeled by Voidrays using this build, I'll be able to take a better look.
Thanks for answering that in detail. Why does the stargate need to be proxied? Can a stalker not deny scouting it? Or does it need to be down before the stalker comes out?
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On September 02 2012 07:10 TheRealFluid wrote: I feel like a gate robo gate into 2 immortal aggression can completely counter this build.
This was pretty much what I thought too. A build like what Flying did against MVP in OSL viz sentry/immortal pressure. I struggle to see how this build could defend against it.
Still, it worked for Flash so it's obviously worth throwing in every so often.
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On September 02 2012 07:10 TheRealFluid wrote: I feel like a gate robo gate into 2 immortal aggression can completely counter this build.
If you feel that, run this against some Immortal pressure/all-ins, show us the replays, and then we'll be able to say for sure. No one has gone Gate-Robo-Gate against me yet when doing this build (I've been testing on ladder for the most part).
In addition, 2-Immortal aggression is far from standard. A heavy bust with 3 Immortals is more regular, and normal Terran expand builds will still feel the heat of those. The default stance of a Protoss going quick Immortals scouting Marauder/tech lab builds is to hold back, defend the push, and counter-swing. Since you are not actually pushing him, you have extra time to get the appropriate number of Bunkers. Also, 3OCs means lost SCVs when defending Bunkers are both replenished faster and somewhat compensated for by 3 MULEs at a time.
Just like when scouting many Protoss all-ins, you should be concentrating on just getting out many many Marines and Bunkers. Scouting is always key to holding something with a greedy build like this. See it coming and make the intuitive response (i.e. don't get Reactors, just keep pumping units, build more Bunkers, hotkey SCVs for quick repair, etc.).
A note to anyone contributing to the discussion: as I've done lots of testing against AIs, laddering, and watching the Flash/San game many many times, please be as specific as possible when suggesting something to add. There's lots of little wrinkles that you can react to in anyone's play, so knowing the EXACT situation you are talking about will make it easier for me to determine whether or not there is a hole in the build (which I want to plug if at all possible). Many details and replays would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for all the feedback so far.
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On September 02 2012 05:44 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote: It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it. oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in. It's true that this is weak to Voidray all-ins. However, Voidray all-in is so much worse (in modern PvT) against many of the other standard builds that Terrans have at their disposal that I have a hard time believing that many Protoss will make the instant reaction to go for it. In addition, this is NOT supposed to be a replacement standard ladder build (although it works fine in Diamond League where the reactions are less precise and timely all around). It's very good as something to mix in a BoX, where you can throw many different looks at your opponent. Imagine doing a 2-rax all-in and winning in the first game, THEN pulling this out. What does your opponent do? He HAS to respect the possibility of 2-rax, so he'll play safe, but then ends up way behind the 3CC. That's the money place for this build. So, try it and if you find some huge holes in it with ladder play, please let me know so I can tweak the build or add some cautions to it. :D Tech Lab first doesn't indicate 2 rax, because a proper 2 rax is reactor first like I said. Showing a marauder just leads the protoss to kill you with a 3 gate pressure, immortal all-in (off gate robo gate), void ray all-in, etc. I have tried builds like this and I recognize the potential power, it's just that there are similar builds that are safer and just as powerful. A player can easily go 1 gate expand against this build anyway and hit a strong 2 base timing, so I don't understand why anyone thinks a marauder gives you any advantage.
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On September 02 2012 07:40 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 05:44 Jazzman88 wrote:On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote: It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it. oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in. It's true that this is weak to Voidray all-ins. However, Voidray all-in is so much worse (in modern PvT) against many of the other standard builds that Terrans have at their disposal that I have a hard time believing that many Protoss will make the instant reaction to go for it. In addition, this is NOT supposed to be a replacement standard ladder build (although it works fine in Diamond League where the reactions are less precise and timely all around). It's very good as something to mix in a BoX, where you can throw many different looks at your opponent. Imagine doing a 2-rax all-in and winning in the first game, THEN pulling this out. What does your opponent do? He HAS to respect the possibility of 2-rax, so he'll play safe, but then ends up way behind the 3CC. That's the money place for this build. So, try it and if you find some huge holes in it with ladder play, please let me know so I can tweak the build or add some cautions to it. :D Tech Lab first doesn't indicate 2 rax, because a proper 2 rax is reactor first like I said. Showing a marauder just leads the protoss to kill you with a 3 gate pressure, immortal all-in (off gate robo gate), void ray all-in, etc. I have tried builds like this and I recognize the potential power, it's just that there are similar builds that are safer and just as powerful. A player can easily go 1 gate expand against this build anyway and hit a strong 2 base timing, so I don't understand why anyone thinks a marauder gives you any advantage.
But the protoss doesn't SEE the techlab. You kill the probe before it scouts your techlab. All the protoss see's is 3 marines and a marauder pushing out, which looks exactly like a 2 rax.
Edit: You will notice Flash goes straight into marine production from that first techlab after the first marauder. Not only is this so he can get the two CC's faster, but also because by the time the 2 marines come after the marauder, its perfect timing for when you would have 3 marines + one marauder from a two rax. It all works so perfectly.
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On September 02 2012 08:12 Westy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 07:40 oOOoOphidian wrote:On September 02 2012 05:44 Jazzman88 wrote:On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote: It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it. oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in. It's true that this is weak to Voidray all-ins. However, Voidray all-in is so much worse (in modern PvT) against many of the other standard builds that Terrans have at their disposal that I have a hard time believing that many Protoss will make the instant reaction to go for it. In addition, this is NOT supposed to be a replacement standard ladder build (although it works fine in Diamond League where the reactions are less precise and timely all around). It's very good as something to mix in a BoX, where you can throw many different looks at your opponent. Imagine doing a 2-rax all-in and winning in the first game, THEN pulling this out. What does your opponent do? He HAS to respect the possibility of 2-rax, so he'll play safe, but then ends up way behind the 3CC. That's the money place for this build. So, try it and if you find some huge holes in it with ladder play, please let me know so I can tweak the build or add some cautions to it. :D Tech Lab first doesn't indicate 2 rax, because a proper 2 rax is reactor first like I said. Showing a marauder just leads the protoss to kill you with a 3 gate pressure, immortal all-in (off gate robo gate), void ray all-in, etc. I have tried builds like this and I recognize the potential power, it's just that there are similar builds that are safer and just as powerful. A player can easily go 1 gate expand against this build anyway and hit a strong 2 base timing, so I don't understand why anyone thinks a marauder gives you any advantage. But the protoss doesn't SEE the techlab. You kill the probe before it scouts your techlab. All the protoss see's is 3 marines and a marauder pushing out, which looks exactly like a 2 rax. How does a marauder come out before a 9 scout sees your gas and tech lab?
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On September 02 2012 08:12 Westy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 07:40 oOOoOphidian wrote:On September 02 2012 05:44 Jazzman88 wrote:On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote: It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it. oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in. It's true that this is weak to Voidray all-ins. However, Voidray all-in is so much worse (in modern PvT) against many of the other standard builds that Terrans have at their disposal that I have a hard time believing that many Protoss will make the instant reaction to go for it. In addition, this is NOT supposed to be a replacement standard ladder build (although it works fine in Diamond League where the reactions are less precise and timely all around). It's very good as something to mix in a BoX, where you can throw many different looks at your opponent. Imagine doing a 2-rax all-in and winning in the first game, THEN pulling this out. What does your opponent do? He HAS to respect the possibility of 2-rax, so he'll play safe, but then ends up way behind the 3CC. That's the money place for this build. So, try it and if you find some huge holes in it with ladder play, please let me know so I can tweak the build or add some cautions to it. :D Tech Lab first doesn't indicate 2 rax, because a proper 2 rax is reactor first like I said. Showing a marauder just leads the protoss to kill you with a 3 gate pressure, immortal all-in (off gate robo gate), void ray all-in, etc. I have tried builds like this and I recognize the potential power, it's just that there are similar builds that are safer and just as powerful. A player can easily go 1 gate expand against this build anyway and hit a strong 2 base timing, so I don't understand why anyone thinks a marauder gives you any advantage. But the protoss doesn't SEE the techlab. You kill the probe before it scouts your techlab. All the protoss see's is 3 marines and a marauder pushing out, which looks exactly like a 2 rax.
Not always. It depends on the timing of the scout. If the Protoss 9-scouts, it's possible that he sees everything up until he gets killed by the Marine, so he might see the Tech Lab. The good thing in that case would be that he sees the gas, which could also be 1-1-1. I see what he's trying to say, which is that Tech Lab is not the standard 2-rax, Reactor THEN Tech Lab is; and in his opinion the Protoss can kill you by pressuring against this. In my experience up to this point, it's no weaker than anything else versus 2-base timings (the early Concussive Shells helps against Gateway units, and you have the time necessary to defend against 2-base Colossus all-ins - hopefully with a second Starport on the way). There's nothing wrong with searching for holes like that in these builds - that only improves the overall quality of weapons in the Terran arsenal. I haven't seen proof yet that it's 'countered' by any of the standard Protoss builds yet, but I'm open to that idea.
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On September 02 2012 08:16 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 08:12 Westy wrote:On September 02 2012 07:40 oOOoOphidian wrote:On September 02 2012 05:44 Jazzman88 wrote:On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote: It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it. oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in. It's true that this is weak to Voidray all-ins. However, Voidray all-in is so much worse (in modern PvT) against many of the other standard builds that Terrans have at their disposal that I have a hard time believing that many Protoss will make the instant reaction to go for it. In addition, this is NOT supposed to be a replacement standard ladder build (although it works fine in Diamond League where the reactions are less precise and timely all around). It's very good as something to mix in a BoX, where you can throw many different looks at your opponent. Imagine doing a 2-rax all-in and winning in the first game, THEN pulling this out. What does your opponent do? He HAS to respect the possibility of 2-rax, so he'll play safe, but then ends up way behind the 3CC. That's the money place for this build. So, try it and if you find some huge holes in it with ladder play, please let me know so I can tweak the build or add some cautions to it. :D Tech Lab first doesn't indicate 2 rax, because a proper 2 rax is reactor first like I said. Showing a marauder just leads the protoss to kill you with a 3 gate pressure, immortal all-in (off gate robo gate), void ray all-in, etc. I have tried builds like this and I recognize the potential power, it's just that there are similar builds that are safer and just as powerful. A player can easily go 1 gate expand against this build anyway and hit a strong 2 base timing, so I don't understand why anyone thinks a marauder gives you any advantage. But the protoss doesn't SEE the techlab. You kill the probe before it scouts your techlab. All the protoss see's is 3 marines and a marauder pushing out, which looks exactly like a 2 rax. How does a marauder come out before a 9 scout sees your gas and tech lab?
Its marine before techlab... Marine kills the probe before he builds the techlab
And to the other guy, you simply don't make the techlab until you kill the marine. Just fake the production of another marine (Or hell, even build one if you have too), and the protoss is going to be convince that you will be two raxing (After seeing the marauder + 3 marines)
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Wait, didn't people stop doing marauder expos since 3 gate voidrays appeared?
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I don't think you can prevent a probe from getting to see the techlab without using the marauder, which gives away the information protoss needs anyway. It needs to be tested, but I cannot see this build withstanding the 2base 3 immortal timing that protoss can do off of a gate-robo-gate. You can reactively thrown down the robo in time upon scouting techlab or marauder.
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Thanks for the write up, pretty interesting play.
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Jinro used to do builds exactly like this TvP, check out his twitch archives.
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I got smahed by immortal all in he didn't even scout.. this fails to immortal all in
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On September 02 2012 09:29 nucLeaRTV wrote: Wait, didn't people stop doing marauder expos since 3 gate voidrays appeared?
On September 02 2012 11:36 ConstantSc wrote: I got smahed by immortal all in he didn't even scout.. this fails to immortal all in
Every build has it's strengths and weaknesses.
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On September 02 2012 18:03 hersenen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 09:29 nucLeaRTV wrote: Wait, didn't people stop doing marauder expos since 3 gate voidrays appeared? Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 11:36 ConstantSc wrote: I got smahed by immortal all in he didn't even scout.. this fails to immortal all in Every build has it's strengths and weaknesses.
Yep it´s a build you can include in your box series in tournements or aggainst your friends, but i wouldn´t recommned doing it on ladder.
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i dont know why people here assume the Toss sees the Techlab... you build 1 marine, which
a) kills the probe you trapped into your base b) drives the probe away from the ramp
then you build the techlab. Toss either saw gas and no addon and would assume factory most likely or saw just a normal wall without addon and does not know anything.
Also if you scout some kind of 4gate or 1base play you can easily jsut build 1 CC and throw donw the Rax earlier, thats what im doing and i hat no problem against proxy voidray with gates (to be fair he executed it pretty bad, but it was not an auto loss).
this is mid masters~1200pt
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On September 02 2012 11:36 ConstantSc wrote: I got smahed by immortal all in he didn't even scout.. this fails to immortal all in
The question is. Did you scout it? Did you get bunkers up in time and SCVs to repair them? It's pretty crucial if you state that it doesn't work against something because of poor control or scouting.
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The thing is, a gas opening almost always means Zealot/Stalker/Stalker which absolutely rolls over a single Marauder. This is more playing towards lack of 2 Rax, as mentioned previously.
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If you show your 2nd depot they know it can't be a 2rax
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Been using this build a few times, figured someone might find this helpful:
http://drop.sc/246987
Equally I'd find it helpful if someone could look over mistakes/improvements.
tl;dr its a game where the P goes all in just after I've taken my third.
There's not enough fpvods and replays of this build around to fully map it out so would be good if people could upload their attempts or note any vods of pro's they see.
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Just an update:
Someone on the Bnet forums asked about a build similar to this, and I'll put out the call here, too. If there are any Protoss who are interested in more exhaustively testing this build with Voidray all-ins and Immortal busts (because those are fairly uncommon on ladder nowadays), I would love to experiment a little more and update the guide. PM me or add Jazzman.214 in-game to test. :D Thanks!
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Great guide! Gotta love a build by the one and only Flash!
User was temp banned for this post.
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flash doing what he does best
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how do you deal with 3 gate immortal all ins? srry if its already posted.
EDIT : k nvm it loses to immortal all ins
On September 02 2012 20:10 Sianos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 18:03 hersenen wrote:On September 02 2012 09:29 nucLeaRTV wrote: Wait, didn't people stop doing marauder expos since 3 gate voidrays appeared? On September 02 2012 11:36 ConstantSc wrote: I got smahed by immortal all in he didn't even scout.. this fails to immortal all in Every build has it's strengths and weaknesses. Yep it´s a build you can include in your box series in tournements or aggainst your friends, but i wouldn´t recommned doing it on ladder.
So whats a good safe ladder opening build for tvp?
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This build rely heavily on flash's God sense. it's similar to how he plays bw. Cutting corner, active army. Very control and awareness reliant.
Seems that most of those trying this build do not have the required skill set to pull it off.
Flash plays reactively and not just executing a cookie cutter build.
Definitely very high level play. Thanks for taking the time to write the guide.
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This build pretty good on ladder. It makes Protoss to go safe expansion, rather than being greedy. Very nice guide.
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So do you have to subscribe to watch the VOD of Flash executing this build?
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It's really unfortunate: OGN has changed their policy since the match aired. About 3 weeks after this match, OGN suddenly decided to make all of their VODs subscription only, which included all the previous matches retroactively that had been free to watch up until that point. I was angry.
The gist of the VOD is that Flash is Flash, pulls out a very ballsy, low-scouting and low defense opener relying on those Marauders with Concussive while putting 3 OCs up and just running San over once his economic edge takes hold.
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Ahh darn, I understand growing esports, but 20 bucks for just a season seems pretty high. I'd rather just see a bunch of commercials.
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On September 24 2012 10:37 lazyitachi wrote:
Seems that most of those trying this build do not have the required skill set to pull it off.
Flash plays reactively and not just executing a cookie cutter build.
Very true, nobody of us is going to beat San with it For your average diamond-master bear however, it's great to practice purely macro oriented builds(no focus on drops or cheeky play) consisting of of winning games with just sheer amounts of units+upgrades while keeping a steady base count.
In regards to army control, just good spread and being in your opponents face without committing will get you far with this build. Well written guide, thanks OP! <3
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i dont like dropping 3rd CC when i scout 2 gas. too risky and you will die to almost every allin if u arent as good as Flash.
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Thx! Sounds really cool, will try it out for sure.
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This build is awesome , you force protoss to go for a really early robo, or a 6-7 gate timing, and you can just defend it easy since ur stim will be done fast
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very sophisticated build, shows flash's brilliance. was anybody surprised to see flash invent a build that lets him build 3 CCs as fast as possible?
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On September 29 2012 23:31 ( bush wrote: i dont like dropping 3rd CC when i scout 2 gas. too risky and you will die to almost every allin if u arent as good as Flash.
well shit, this changes everything
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On September 29 2012 23:31 ( bush wrote: i dont like dropping 3rd CC when i scout 2 gas. too risky and you will die to almost every allin if u arent as good as Flash.
You have to do a real careful count of 2 gas, though. Is it 2 gas with 3 probes each or 2 with 2 each? 2 with 2 each indicates an expand play followed up with light gateway pressure and teching, whereas 2 with 3 is the one that should send you running for defensive structures. Always be counting to make sure, as knowing how many workers are doing what is key to reading your opponent in many matchups.
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too greedy for normal play but nice vs those standard playing protosses.
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I really like this build and it works well for me on the ladder. I tried to develop a variant, and I think it yields better results (faster medivacs, more units, better production, ect.) but slightly less economy (on average about 3 less workers, 41 workers as opposed to 44)
The variant works like this - it follows the same opening until the time comes to get stim. Once you get stim, normally, you would take your 2nd gas. Don't take it yet. Instead, drop another rax when you can, and then another rax (so five rax total.) Don't get the reactors. You might need to cut workers, but if you do you should be okay as long as you only miss a cycle or two. Once you have 100 gas again, you should be close to being able to afford a factory. Once you drop the factory, take your 2nd gas and proceed as normal.
For me, this increases the amount of marines on hand during the 6-8 minute mark, which is when many toss all-ins hit. In addition, it lets me get medivacs about 30 seconds faster, which helps a lot. In addition, when you push out, you can just put 4 add-ons on your rax, take your 3rd, and probably add on a few more barracks before your add-ons kick in. The only drawback so far to this variant is that you should have about 3 less workers, but due to the nature of a 3OC, this is barely felt at all.
EDIT: Should clarify, my SCV counts are at the 10 minute mark.
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This build is extremely powerful. If protoss plays standard and reacts as if he's playing vs 2 rax concussive, he should almost auto lose. The one problem I foresee is that some tosses automatically go gate robo gate vs any gas/tech lab opener on the grounds that its a near build order win vs any 2 rax. By extension, I'm pretty sure gate robo gate, an expand, into a parting style immortal bust would give this build some problems.
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Just standard 1gate FE into 6:30 4gate bust would kill this, or put the terran very hard behind. But that's just my opinion. Nice build tough!
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On October 01 2012 02:57 Snowbear wrote: Just standard 1gate FE into 6:30 4gate bust would kill this, or put the terran very hard behind. But that's just my opinion. Nice build tough!
4-gates are possible to hold, but difficult; the real kicker is a heavy Immortal bust or Void-ray all-in. Denying the Protoss scout is absolutely key. The best way to do it is to show him the Concussive Shells without showing him the Tech Lab, because it really does look like 2-rax Concussive then. For example, deny the Probe with the early 2nd depot and Marine (shooing him away or killing him before starting the TL), then once the Protoss pokes, try to hit the Stalker and/or Zealot with the Concussive Marauder before they get to your ramp (assuming a very standard Zealot/Stalker map control play - if not, you're fine, because the Protoss doesn't get to scout you without a Stalker until they get Observers, and at that point, it's too late). At that point it is impossible for the Protoss to say for certain that it isn't a 2-rax with Concussive Shells (although he MIGHT try to guess it isn't based on the only 2-3 Marine count at that point). You can fake a slight bit of pressure by just moving out to the watchtower as if you want to push his FE.
As someone has already said, the default 2-rax response of "get a bunch of Sentries and Gateway units to defend" pretty much auto-loses because the Protoss doesn't tech, and doesn't get a third base quickly, while you already have 3 bases and by the time the Protoss realizes it isn't 2-rax, you have enough defense and are already teching yourself. Again, this isn't a solid every game ladder build just because certain types of busts and all-ins will wreck it (Immortal bust and Void-ray all-in are the primary threats), but is very good in BofX scenarios because the mind games are elevated to a new level of importance there. Too, this isn't as popular as the more common 3CC builds, which allows it to be a doubly surprising weapon.
Another note: if your scouting SCV gets there and does his little dance, finding no expansion by 5:00, it's going to get rough, and you should NOT drop the natural CC yet. Cluster the Marine/Marauder ball at the top of the ramp, and get a couple of Bunkers. Ride out the pressure, and you will be absolutely leagues ahead of the Protoss.
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On October 01 2012 04:01 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 02:57 Snowbear wrote: Just standard 1gate FE into 6:30 4gate bust would kill this, or put the terran very hard behind. But that's just my opinion. Nice build tough! 4-gates are possible to hold, but difficult; the real kicker is a heavy Immortal bust or Void-ray all-in. Denying the Protoss scout is absolutely key. The best way to do it is to show him the Concussive Shells without showing him the Tech Lab, because it really does look like 2-rax Concussive then. For example, deny the Probe with the early 2nd depot and Marine (shooing him away or killing him before starting the TL), then once the Protoss pokes, try to hit the Stalker and/or Zealot with the Concussive Marauder before they get to your ramp (assuming a very standard Zealot/Stalker map control play - if not, you're fine, because the Protoss doesn't get to scout you without a Stalker until they get Observers, and at that point, it's too late). At that point it is impossible for the Protoss to say for certain that it isn't a 2-rax with Concussive Shells (although he MIGHT try to guess it isn't based on the only 2-3 Marine count at that point). You can fake a slight bit of pressure by just moving out to the watchtower as if you want to push his FE. As someone has already said, the default 2-rax response of "get a bunch of Sentries and Gateway units to defend" pretty much auto-loses because the Protoss doesn't tech, and doesn't get a third base quickly, while you already have 3 bases and by the time the Protoss realizes it isn't 2-rax, you have enough defense and are already teching yourself. Again, this isn't a solid every game ladder build just because certain types of busts and all-ins will wreck it (Immortal bust and Void-ray all-in are the primary threats), but is very good in BofX scenarios because the mind games are elevated to a new level of importance there. Too, this isn't as popular as the more common 3CC builds, which allows it to be a doubly surprising weapon. Another note: if your scouting SCV gets there and does his little dance, finding no expansion by 5:00, it's going to get rough, and you should NOT drop the natural CC yet. Cluster the Marine/Marauder ball at the top of the ramp, and get a couple of Bunkers. Ride out the pressure, and you will be absolutely leagues ahead of the Protoss.
I was talking about a 2base 4gate, which arrives around 6:30. This is not a 1base play!
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On October 01 2012 04:33 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 04:01 Jazzman88 wrote:On October 01 2012 02:57 Snowbear wrote: Just standard 1gate FE into 6:30 4gate bust would kill this, or put the terran very hard behind. But that's just my opinion. Nice build tough! 4-gates are possible to hold, but difficult; the real kicker is a heavy Immortal bust or Void-ray all-in. Denying the Protoss scout is absolutely key. The best way to do it is to show him the Concussive Shells without showing him the Tech Lab, because it really does look like 2-rax Concussive then. For example, deny the Probe with the early 2nd depot and Marine (shooing him away or killing him before starting the TL), then once the Protoss pokes, try to hit the Stalker and/or Zealot with the Concussive Marauder before they get to your ramp (assuming a very standard Zealot/Stalker map control play - if not, you're fine, because the Protoss doesn't get to scout you without a Stalker until they get Observers, and at that point, it's too late). At that point it is impossible for the Protoss to say for certain that it isn't a 2-rax with Concussive Shells (although he MIGHT try to guess it isn't based on the only 2-3 Marine count at that point). You can fake a slight bit of pressure by just moving out to the watchtower as if you want to push his FE. As someone has already said, the default 2-rax response of "get a bunch of Sentries and Gateway units to defend" pretty much auto-loses because the Protoss doesn't tech, and doesn't get a third base quickly, while you already have 3 bases and by the time the Protoss realizes it isn't 2-rax, you have enough defense and are already teching yourself. Again, this isn't a solid every game ladder build just because certain types of busts and all-ins will wreck it (Immortal bust and Void-ray all-in are the primary threats), but is very good in BofX scenarios because the mind games are elevated to a new level of importance there. Too, this isn't as popular as the more common 3CC builds, which allows it to be a doubly surprising weapon. Another note: if your scouting SCV gets there and does his little dance, finding no expansion by 5:00, it's going to get rough, and you should NOT drop the natural CC yet. Cluster the Marine/Marauder ball at the top of the ramp, and get a couple of Bunkers. Ride out the pressure, and you will be absolutely leagues ahead of the Protoss. I was talking about a 2base 4gate, which arrives around 6:30. This is not a 1base play!
Ah, my mistake. 2-base 4-gate? There are so many much better responses to a build like this than 4-gate pressure off of an FE. As far as I see in the latest pro games, there is nothing 'standard' about busting with 4 gates after 1-gate FE. 3-gate Robo Immortal busts, 6-gate Sentry all-ins, and the 3 Colossi Squirtle timing are all much more common and deadlier than 4 gates. At 6:30 with this build you will be able to have at least 1 Bunker, 2 if you are nervous and scouting properly. 2 Bunkers plus the 3 OCs should hold anything that's coming off of 4 gates, I would think. Keep in mind you can also take quite a few SCV losses in order to throw back the Protoss because you're on 3OC and he's on 2 base, plus if he forgoes his Robo to go 4 gates, his tech is SO far behind that he'll never catch up unless he kills you now.
Do you have replays of a Protoss going 4 gates after FE so that I can see how much stuff the opponent is capable of getting? The very first game I ever played on ladder with this the Protoss went 3 or 4 gates immediately after his expansion and I crushed him.
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Is it possible to do this opening, but with just one CC. Or is the 1 rax FE superior to a such opening?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On October 01 2012 18:45 Ordien wrote: Is it possible to do this opening, but with just one CC. Or is the 1 rax FE superior to a such opening?
Kas does this build with one CC, and gets more marauders: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=303159
However, typically a 1 Rax FE comes out earlier and is less vulnerable to void ray attacks, which is why it is a much more common build at almost all levels of play. It can't attack in the same way, though.
The 1 rax concussive pressure build is basically what this build scouts as, which is why it's so fun. Against a normal 1 rrx concussive pressure, protoss basically has to camp out in his own base until he has more units, so by faking it and not making a lot of marauders, as terran you can get a quick 3rd CC and get ahead.
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Flash actually make a supply depot after the command centers. Just wanted to point out. Wasnt said in the build orders. Tnx for the awsome guide. pls make more of these <3
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Hey Jazzman, I'm having trouble with the actual opener. In your pic you have 23 food, both CC's started and consusive not quite done. When i play the build out, i can't afford the 3rd CC before the depot. Do you cut marines or scvs anywhere? Even with not building the 3rd depot my 3rd CC doesnt start until concussive is already done. I'm not really sure if i've missed something subtle.
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On October 03 2012 17:42 MateShade wrote: Hey Jazzman, I'm having trouble with the actual opener. In your pic you have 23 food, both CC's started and consusive not quite done. When i play the build out, i can't afford the 3rd CC before the depot. Do you cut marines or scvs anywhere? Even with not building the 3rd depot my 3rd CC doesnt start until concussive is already done. I'm not really sure if i've missed something subtle.
If you remember to come off gas you should be able to afford it, without cutting army or workers
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On October 03 2012 17:42 MateShade wrote: Hey Jazzman, I'm having trouble with the actual opener. In your pic you have 23 food, both CC's started and consusive not quite done. When i play the build out, i can't afford the 3rd CC before the depot. Do you cut marines or scvs anywhere? Even with not building the 3rd depot my 3rd CC doesnt start until concussive is already done. I'm not really sure if i've missed something subtle.
It is VERY tight. Notice in the pic (I have the production tab open), that I have the 3rd CC just started, 1 SCV almost done, nothing coming out of the Barracks, and 45 minerals. In the next couple of seconds, I am going to start a Marine and an SCV as soon as the minerals permit. There may be a slight hiccup in production, but there is no intentional 'cutting' of anything. Build what the minerals allow, never queuing up more than 1 SCV or Barracks unit at a time, and it should just barely slip in there. The tough choice comes just after this with the Bunker/3rd Depot placement and choice. If you absolutely want to squeeze out both the Bunker and Barracks 2/3 as quickly as possible, you can permit a slight supply block at 27 for a few seconds, using CC#2 as a ersatz depot, which will take you to 38 supply once finished.
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Thanks for the write up. The voidray defense section made me lol - all terrans have been there. It feels so hopeless but when I outmicro a void all in I feel like $1,000,000!
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On October 03 2012 22:02 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 17:42 MateShade wrote: Hey Jazzman, I'm having trouble with the actual opener. In your pic you have 23 food, both CC's started and consusive not quite done. When i play the build out, i can't afford the 3rd CC before the depot. Do you cut marines or scvs anywhere? Even with not building the 3rd depot my 3rd CC doesnt start until concussive is already done. I'm not really sure if i've missed something subtle. It is VERY tight. Notice in the pic (I have the production tab open), that I have the 3rd CC just started, 1 SCV almost done, nothing coming out of the Barracks, and 45 minerals. In the next couple of seconds, I am going to start a Marine and an SCV as soon as the minerals permit. There may be a slight hiccup in production, but there is no intentional 'cutting' of anything. Build what the minerals allow, never queuing up more than 1 SCV or Barracks unit at a time, and it should just barely slip in there. The tough choice comes just after this with the Bunker/3rd Depot placement and choice. If you absolutely want to squeeze out both the Bunker and Barracks 2/3 as quickly as possible, you can permit a slight supply block at 27 for a few seconds, using CC#2 as a ersatz depot, which will take you to 38 supply once finished.
I just did a dry run of it, as instructed with no cuts at all, and I got very supply blocked, here is the replay, let me know if I'm missing something because currently my situation is not the same as yours, and I executed this pretty much 99% well
http://drop.sc/261046
cheers!
Edit: Just added another one, sneaking in the CC before that scv and marine as you said, 'slightly' cutting them, you actually still get supply blocked for a good 10 seconds, it just doesn't seem very efficient at all either way
http://drop.sc/261048
In the first version with no cuts, you get supply blocked for 25 seconds
In the second version, you have to cut scvs for 7 seconds, and marines for 12 (or vice versa), you then get supply blocked for 12 seconds
This could either be a) me, b) something isnt quite right or c) the build is intended like that (in which case i think its significant enough to note this in your guide, after doing the build as instructed and getting a 25sec supply block i mighten't be the only one)
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On October 04 2012 00:30 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 22:02 Jazzman88 wrote:On October 03 2012 17:42 MateShade wrote: Hey Jazzman, I'm having trouble with the actual opener. In your pic you have 23 food, both CC's started and consusive not quite done. When i play the build out, i can't afford the 3rd CC before the depot. Do you cut marines or scvs anywhere? Even with not building the 3rd depot my 3rd CC doesnt start until concussive is already done. I'm not really sure if i've missed something subtle. It is VERY tight. Notice in the pic (I have the production tab open), that I have the 3rd CC just started, 1 SCV almost done, nothing coming out of the Barracks, and 45 minerals. In the next couple of seconds, I am going to start a Marine and an SCV as soon as the minerals permit. There may be a slight hiccup in production, but there is no intentional 'cutting' of anything. Build what the minerals allow, never queuing up more than 1 SCV or Barracks unit at a time, and it should just barely slip in there. The tough choice comes just after this with the Bunker/3rd Depot placement and choice. If you absolutely want to squeeze out both the Bunker and Barracks 2/3 as quickly as possible, you can permit a slight supply block at 27 for a few seconds, using CC#2 as a ersatz depot, which will take you to 38 supply once finished. I just did a dry run of it, as instructed with no cuts at all, and I got very supply blocked, here is the replay, let me know if I'm missing something because currently my situation is not the same as yours, and I executed this pretty much 99% well http://drop.sc/261046cheers! Edit: Just added another one, sneaking in the CC before that scv and marine as you said, 'slightly' cutting them, you actually still get supply blocked for a good 10 seconds, it just doesn't seem very efficient at all either way http://drop.sc/261048In the first version with no cuts, you get supply blocked for 25 seconds In the second version, you have to cut scvs for 7 seconds, and marines for 12 (or vice versa), you then get supply blocked for 12 seconds This could either be a) me, b) something isnt quite right or c) the build is intended like that (in which case i think its significant enough to note this in your guide, after doing the build as instructed and getting a 25sec supply block i mighten't be the only one)
You're actually quite right, the margin is larger than I remembered it being.
I also just watched the relevant sections of the Korean-language YouTube VoD that another poster tracked down (thanks, btw!). Here's how Flash does it:
1. CC @~4:00-4:05 *** constant Marine/SCV production after Marauder 2. CC @~4:45-4:50 3. Supply Depot when minerals permit (no queued units/workers) *** Flash gets supply blocked for about 16 in-game seconds (this is totally unavoidable without cutting something) 4. Barracks x2, then Bunker
***further note: if you DO go for the emergency Bunker without depot, the supply block WILL be about 25-26 in-game seconds
Based on this excellent research (much kudos to you fine gentlepeople!), I will be updating the OP to reflect the supply block bumps and the necessity of scouting for 4-gates as a result.
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On October 04 2012 06:56 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 00:30 MateShade wrote:On October 03 2012 22:02 Jazzman88 wrote:On October 03 2012 17:42 MateShade wrote: Hey Jazzman, I'm having trouble with the actual opener. In your pic you have 23 food, both CC's started and consusive not quite done. When i play the build out, i can't afford the 3rd CC before the depot. Do you cut marines or scvs anywhere? Even with not building the 3rd depot my 3rd CC doesnt start until concussive is already done. I'm not really sure if i've missed something subtle. It is VERY tight. Notice in the pic (I have the production tab open), that I have the 3rd CC just started, 1 SCV almost done, nothing coming out of the Barracks, and 45 minerals. In the next couple of seconds, I am going to start a Marine and an SCV as soon as the minerals permit. There may be a slight hiccup in production, but there is no intentional 'cutting' of anything. Build what the minerals allow, never queuing up more than 1 SCV or Barracks unit at a time, and it should just barely slip in there. The tough choice comes just after this with the Bunker/3rd Depot placement and choice. If you absolutely want to squeeze out both the Bunker and Barracks 2/3 as quickly as possible, you can permit a slight supply block at 27 for a few seconds, using CC#2 as a ersatz depot, which will take you to 38 supply once finished. I just did a dry run of it, as instructed with no cuts at all, and I got very supply blocked, here is the replay, let me know if I'm missing something because currently my situation is not the same as yours, and I executed this pretty much 99% well http://drop.sc/261046cheers! Edit: Just added another one, sneaking in the CC before that scv and marine as you said, 'slightly' cutting them, you actually still get supply blocked for a good 10 seconds, it just doesn't seem very efficient at all either way http://drop.sc/261048In the first version with no cuts, you get supply blocked for 25 seconds In the second version, you have to cut scvs for 7 seconds, and marines for 12 (or vice versa), you then get supply blocked for 12 seconds This could either be a) me, b) something isnt quite right or c) the build is intended like that (in which case i think its significant enough to note this in your guide, after doing the build as instructed and getting a 25sec supply block i mighten't be the only one) You're actually quite right, the margin is larger than I remembered it being. I also just watched the relevant sections of the Korean-language YouTube VoD that another poster tracked down (thanks, btw!). Here's how Flash does it: 1. CC @~4:00-4:05 *** constant Marine/SCV production after Marauder 2. CC @~4:45-4:50 3. Supply Depot when minerals permit (no queued units/workers) *** Flash gets supply blocked for about 16 in-game seconds (this is totally unavoidable without cutting something) 4. Barracks x2, then Bunker ***further note: if you DO go for the emergency Bunker without depot, the supply block WILL be about 25-26 in-game seconds Based on this excellent research (much kudos to you fine gentlepeople!), I will be updating the OP to reflect the supply block bumps and the necessity of scouting for 4-gates as a result.
No worries, didn't want tto sound like I was nitpicking haha. Flash obviously thinks the supply block is worth getting the 3rd cc up 10 seconds faster, so I wont argue with him but it still feels a little weird
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holy shit. the pressure sometimes straight up kills the any toss not paying attention even when I'm building two command centers behind it LOLOLOL. thanks for the idea.
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On October 04 2012 12:18 Discarder wrote: holy shit. the pressure sometimes straight up kills the any toss not paying attention even when I'm building two command centers behind it LOLOLOL. thanks for the idea.
It's similar to a standard +1 mmm pressure at 11 minutes, only you will have a few less units/medivacs and no +1. The pressure achieves the same thing as standard play with good control which is great ^^ (and the idea behind the build)
Unless you mean the 1 marauder pressure at the start... which is just sad haha
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On October 04 2012 12:21 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 12:18 Discarder wrote: holy shit. the pressure sometimes straight up kills the any toss not paying attention even when I'm building two command centers behind it LOLOLOL. thanks for the idea. It's similar to a standard +1 mmm pressure at 11 minutes, only you will have a few less units/medivacs and no +1. The pressure achieves the same thing as standard play with good control which is great ^^ (and the idea behind the build) Unless you mean the 1 marauder pressure at the start... which is just sad haha
Yeah, the metagame is so firmly in favour of 1-gate FE or Nexus-first that unless they send a 9 scout, they don't get inside your base, and so they don't see the gas. Sometimes the Protoss will just assume no pressure and an FE, but then they skip the Zealot or make a Sentry instead of a Stalker, and Concussive Shell KILLS Gateway units if you can manage to not lose the Marauder.
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I'm using this build for a while now, but I still wonder what flash does about late dt's (1gate FE into 8:30 dt drop, or just 8:30 dt's). He makes his ebays around 9:5..
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On October 04 2012 22:00 Snowbear wrote: I'm using this build for a while now, but I still wonder what flash does about late dt's (1gate FE into 8:30 dt drop, or just 8:30 dt's). He makes his ebays around 9:5.. Good eyes and a scan works, but it's not a reliable way unless you're really good.
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On October 04 2012 22:00 Snowbear wrote: I'm using this build for a while now, but I still wonder what flash does about late dt's (1gate FE into 8:30 dt drop, or just 8:30 dt's). He makes his ebays around 9:5..
Basically with 3 OC the Protoss has to go super all-in with the DTs and hope that you have just dropped 3 MULEs in order to win... 3 OCs gives you plenty of Scans, and aside from that, just scout and be aware. DTs aren't that great against Terran just because of the frequency of early E-bays, but you'll occasionally get hit. I wouldn't worry about the 8:30 drop so much. Unless he gets lucky, he'll end up way behind that greedy of 3CC build.
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