This guide will explain how to take a faster, safer third base against Zerg, max out ridiculously quickly, and execute a powerful zealot/immortal/templar pre-broodlord timing all while teching mothership and taking a fourth base. The build combines tips and techniques I've learned from great players like rsvp, LeiYa (formerly known as puCKK), and Zeth, as well as some ideas I've picked up through practice. The result:
Why Zealots vs Zerg?
A lot of people think zealots are garbage vs Zerg, and that's true in many situations. Forcefields complement stalkers and colossi really well, and zealots don't do much good if you're already forcefielding Zerg's army away from your DPS ball. But the metagame has shifted toward Zerg building lots of spine crawlers, infestors and zerglings while they tech toward broodlords, and when Zerg gets out infestors, your sentries eventually die. At this point, you're left with a bunch of stalkers that are pinned in place by fungal and not enough colossi to clean up the hoard of zerglings and roaches that has surrounded your force.
My solution to this metagame challenge is to focus more heavily on zealots which provide adequate tanking even in the face of fungals and spine crawlers.
Properly supported by immortals and sentries, zealots are a very powerful solution to the Stephano-style roach rush because they're cheap and durable with a short build time, and your supply rockets up much more quickly than if you build stalkers. They're also resilient against fungal growth, and because they're so cheap, it's okay to throw them away to drain infestor energy. Since zealots are a pure mineral dump, you're also able to quickly tech mothership behind your push.
Build Skeleton:
-FFE -3 gate + robo infrastructure -Third base behind soft zealot pressure -5 gate robo zealot/sentry/immortal production -12 gate attack with chargelot/immortal/templar -Tech mothership and air weapons behind attack
Detailed Description:
FFE:
If you don't already know how to FFE, I'd suggest learning a more simple build first. I will note that the timings for this build work best off of 17 nexus, 17 forge, 17 gateway, 17 pylon, 18 cannon. Of course, that cannon timing will be too slow to be safe in some situations based on Zerg's pool timing and the rush distance. Adjust accordingly.
3 Gate + Robo Infrastructure:
The guiding principles for setting up your early infrastructure are (1) you want to hit a 7:40 warp-in timing to slow Zerg's economy, (2) you need 2 observers to keep tabs on Zerg's tech and army choices, and (3) you're going to be spending a ton of minerals and very little gas up until you have your third base operational. I recommend starting your gateway before your second pylon and your cannon to enable an early and effective pressure timing at 7:40.
Take your first gas after your cannon and your second gas after your cybernetics core. This is easy to remember because, assuming everything else is on time, this is the earliest you can afford them. You'll be staying on 2 gas until your third base is established and you're producing off of 5 gates and a robo.
Start a zealot after your second gas, start WG tech when the core finishes, and spend your next 50 gas on a stalker. Chronoboost WG research 3 times. Build a robotics facility with your next 100 gas, and then add 2 more gateways with your next available 300 minerals. Remember to hotkey your robo and gateways as soon as your start them because there will be a lot going on when they finish around 7:30 and you won't have time to hotkey them then.
Third Base Behind Soft Zealot Pressure:
Send a probe to Zerg's third base shortly before your stalker completes. Start a pylon near Zerg's third, and then send your probe back home. Meanwhile, start a sentry followed by +1 weapons after your stalker completes, and send the sentry along with a probe to your third. The sentry is sent to clear a zergling that will frequently be blocking your third base. Start the third base when you're able to. You'll have enough minerals by about 7:20, but it may be slightly delayed if there's a zergling blocking. Build an observer.
At 7:40, you should have 3 warpgates, a zealot and a stalker defending a proxy pylon while 3 more zealots warp in, a robotics facility finishing an observer, and a third nexus started. The game state should look something like this:
Note that this 4 zealot + stalker pressure can't deal damage unless Zerg plays extremely greedy. You can afford to sacrifice the zealots, but it's better to keep them alive. Simply walk your small force toward Zerg's third base and retreat as soon as you see a roach or a good number of zerglings. This attack is timed to hit before Zerg is likely to have zergling speed, so there's a good chance that you'll be able to get away with your full force. Also note that because Zerg will see your lack of gas, they're likely to overreact and cut workers much more than they need to.
Now Zerg is kicking himself for over-producing attack units and you can expect a counter-pressure on your third and natural. Make sure to start a pylon at your third right after or even before your nexus so that you can warp in cannons on time. You're aiming to form a 2 cannon, 2 gateway defense that looks like this:
Note that you want to leave open the choke that's closest to your natural so that your sentries have to cover the shortest possible distance to bounce between your natural and your third. Some people like to wall off the close path to form a hook that roaches have to walk around, but this just increases the distance that your sentries have to cover. You're going to be forcefielding this choke closed, so the hook will be there for the roaches anyway.
Start two more assimilators after your 4th and 5th gateways (blocking off the cannons at your third). At this point, you should have 2 observers. The first should be bouncing between Zerg's bases trying to identify Zerg's tech path while the second watches Zerg's army movements. The tech options you need to worry about are:
(1) no tech (2) spire (3) infestation pit
If the lair is complete and you see the roach warren jiggling but there are no additional tech structures, Zerg is probably planning to go for the Stephano-style roach max attack. Maintain constant zealot/sentry/immortal production off of your 5 gates and robo. Stay on 4 gas. Build a twilight council followed by additional gates as resources allow. Tip: keep 1 sentry in the choke in your natural to deny zergling run-by's. Remember to micro this doorway to let your immortals through with every production round. Research charge. You'll be fine.
If you see a spire, plan to attack as soon as you can put together an effective force. Build a twilight council if you don't already have one and research blink when it finishes. Slam down 3 more gates and keep your forge chronoboosted. Pressuring Zerg can pin his mutas at home, denying the harass + mass bases engine from getting off the ground. If you scout the spire late or don't feel like you can put together an attack in time, play standard blink stalker defense into storm.
If you see an infestation pit, you can relax. You have time to tech charge, storm, double upgrades, and build out your 12 gate infrastructure. After your 4th and 5th gates, I recommend taking the gas at your natural and third, and then build twilight council and a second forge. My execution hasn't gotten there yet, but I believe that with good chronoboost, you can get +1/+1 off your single forge and then time that upgrade up with your twilight and second forge to start +2/+2 nice and early. Keep an eye on Zerg's hive timing. You have exactly 4 minutes between when Zerg starts his hive and the earliest point that Zerg can have broodlords.
12 Gate Attack With Chargelot/Immortal/Templar:
You want to attack at least 30 seconds before the earliest point that broodlords can finish. It's possible to be maxed or near-maxed at 14 minutes, so that's a good timing to shoot for. At the very least, you want charge and templar (with storm researching) before you attack. Your top micro priority will be feedbacking infestors. Forcefields and storms are good supplementary micro, but feedbacking is #1.
If you're able to hit 90 seconds before the broodlord timing, you can force additional army production which will slow the broodlord transition further. This can result in a loop where Zerg never has time to get broodlords, his infestors run out of energy, and you eventually just roll him over.
As you're attacking, keep in mind the infestor energy level. Frequently, the start of the battle seems to go in Zerg's favor, but if you find a point where you're able to disengage, you can back off to warp in a round or 2 of reinforcements and re-initiate the fight against now-depleted infestors.
Note that if Zerg hasn't started his hive by about 12 minutes, there's a good chance he's planning to be aggressive with his infestors. Having storm available to defend this attack will be very helpful, but it's not imperative.
Tech Mothership and Air Weapons Behind Attack:
Your attack will often be game-winning (Zerg typically prepares for a colossus timing, and this defense isn't optimal against the attack you'll be using), but you can afford to tech mothership and take a fourth behind the attack, so go ahead and do so. Assuming you can't just win with the attack, your goals should be to thin out the infestor count, kill off outlying bases, and delay the broodlords. Sometimes you'll even delay the broodlords enough that you have a mothership before Zerg has broodlords. This is a good sign that you're about to win.
With your mothership, you have the option to push again with your first vortex if you think you can finish the game. Alternatively, you can attempt an air transition. The ultimate Protoss army is about 6 carriers, a mothership, a bunch of archons, about 6 templar for storming corruptors, and maybe a few void rays.
You may be vulnerable during your carrier transition (not enough air to beat the corruptors, not enough ground to beat the broodlords), so keep in mind an estimate for how much time you have until Zerg can do a scary broodlord push. Storms and archon toilets can keep you safe against a low broodlord count, but you'll die to a strong broodlord attack if you get caught with an incomplete carrier transition.
If you're successful in thinning out his infestor count and denying some economy, your strongest option will often be to drop in multiple locations while threatening his forward bases with your main force. He'll have broodlords, but not an overwhelming number of them and little support on the ground. With your double forge midgame, your zealots and stalkers will have 4 armor, and broodlings only deal 4 base damage. Unless he has +3 melee, his broodlings will only deal 1 or 2 damage per shot which means you can easily handle his broodlords if you're able to engage them cleanly. He'll be low on fungals to prevent blink-unders, so all you have to do is pull his broodlords away from his spine crawler walls and engage. Be careful not to blink your stalkers in front of your zealots too soon. You're going to take damage surprisngly slowly, so you can be patient with the blink-under.
Replays:
http://drop.sc/269736 http://drop.sc/270374 (vs GM player ToXSiK, includes double forge, but I forgot to start my +1 on time, so that slowed my upgrades) http://drop.sc/272891 (defending Stephano-style roach ling push on my third) http://drop.sc/269844 http://drop.sc/270345 (Scouted spire early, so was able to pin mutas home with gateway attack. Forgot to get 5th and 6th gas, so I was unable to transition to storm behind the push.) (Will add more soon)
Thanks for reading, and I hope this helps your PvZ. This style has definitely made a word of difference for me. My PvZ used to lag far behind my PvT and PvP, but with this build, it's right next to PvT as my strongest match-up. If you're interested, you can check out more high-level guides I've written:
What weaknesses have you noticed with this build? What Zerg reactions are toughest to deal with? What measures do you take against them? I notice you haven't mentioned Hydralisks; can a Hydralisk timing before Storm finishes do significant damage?
On November 01 2012 10:54 Acritter wrote: What weaknesses have you noticed with this build? What Zerg reactions are toughest to deal with? What measures do you take against them? I notice you haven't mentioned Hydralisks; can a Hydralisk timing before Storm finishes do significant damage?
I think mutas are the toughest thing to beat, but as a player, I'm just bad against mutas. Players that have more success against mutas might not find them so difficult to beat with this build. The key is scouting the spire early as zealot/immortal isn't so helpful when 15 mutas glide into your main.
As for hydras, you so rarely see them, but they do add some punch to the roach force. If you see a hydralisk den, I'd recommend playing more defensively until you have storm. You can't push a roach+hydra force around with immortals like you can push a pure roach force around. That said, with this build, I'd still be grinning when I scouted that hydralisk den. With forcefields, you're extremely unlikely to die to any push so long as you don't over-extend yourself, and hydra production means an extended lair phase which means you have extra time before broodlords. Once you have storm out, Zerg can't deal with your maxed force until broodlords, so hydras should be a welcome sight.
On November 01 2012 10:54 Acritter wrote: What weaknesses have you noticed with this build? What Zerg reactions are toughest to deal with? What measures do you take against them? I notice you haven't mentioned Hydralisks; can a Hydralisk timing before Storm finishes do significant damage?
I think mutas are the toughest thing to beat, but as a player, I'm just bad against mutas. Players that have more success against mutas might not find them so difficult to beat with this build. The key is scouting the spire early as zealot/immortal isn't so helpful when 15 mutas glide into your main.
As for hydras, you so rarely see them, but they do add some punch to the roach force. If you see a hydralisk den, I'd recommend playing more defensively until you have storm. You can't push a roach+hydra force around with immortals like you can push a pure roach force around. That said, with this build, I'd still be grinning when I scouted that hydralisk den. With forcefields, you're extremely unlikely to die to any push so long as you don't over-extend yourself, and hydra production means an extended lair phase which means you have extra time before broodlords. Once you have storm out, Zerg can't deal with your maxed force until broodlords, so hydras should be a welcome sight.
Okay, thanks. The one step of learning any new build I really dread is finding out the hard way what the build struggles with. It generally involves a really embarrassing loss. Hopefully this will accelerate things in a good direction.
On November 01 2012 10:34 kcdc wrote: Take your first gas after your cannon and your second gas after your cybernetics core.
Haha, you edited it before I could comment!
Anyways, this build looks really cool and I think I'm going to be making this my standard PvZ! One thing which would be nice is a few more timing benchmarks (ie x supply @ y time) -- probably not needed for high masters players, but helpful for those of us who are just diamond. I'll get them from the replay, but it's an idea!
Can you elaborate on how to defend the max roach attack on third? Our composition includes a bunch of zealots, which I presume is pretty useless given the FF and the sim city.
Awesome guide, the zealot + immortal + templar 3 base timing is surprisingly effective. I remember SaSe doing it at an MLG earlier this year (I think vs Leenock) and when I tried it out on ladder I would own it up especially on cloud kingdom. He would get 3 gas with 2 probes in each (and add a 4th gas while the robo starts), and take his third off 2-3 sentries and an immortal then sim city everything up. Of course that's a pretty greedy variation, so the extra gates you suggest is more solid. The fast robo also fakes out a lot of zergs into thinking that you are going for a 2 base all in. SaSe would also get a quick hallucinate and keep check of the zerg's army composition as he macrod up his 3 base army so it was as cost effective as possible.
Since imo this works best as a 3 base pre-BL all in on most maps, I'd suggest going up to 12 gates or so since you likely won't be adding any more immortals after 5-6 (assuming he's going for some roach+ling+infestor+spine comp) and even building a warp prism or two to help with the engagement. Even though chargelots+immortals do great against spines I've lost to zergs that get a good set of fungals down and have a good concave with their roach+ling+spines so what I'd recommend is to warp in some zealots in the back of the zerg's main + at their third and wait for them to pull back bits of their army (or 1A to the back of their base -_-) so you can clear the spines without the whole army sitting there as well.
When i use this style I usually stop at 4-6 HT and add in a few archons, I also have ~6 sentries from securing my expo with hallucination for scouting.
I find that using hallucination before engaging and sending in a wave of fake zeal immortal archon really helps soak up damage from fungals and spines. The gaurdian shields are awesome too vs. the infested terran and roaches.
On November 01 2012 10:54 Acritter wrote: What weaknesses have you noticed with this build? What Zerg reactions are toughest to deal with? What measures do you take against them? I notice you haven't mentioned Hydralisks; can a Hydralisk timing before Storm finishes do significant damage?
If broodlords are out and you havent yet transitioned to blink stalkers/mothership, your going to have a bad time...
On November 01 2012 11:45 Quochobao wrote: Can you elaborate on how to defend the max roach attack on third? Our composition includes a bunch of zealots, which I presume is pretty useless given the FF and the sim city.
How exactly to defend then?
You constantly pump immortals out of your robo and you make good use of FF's.
Honestly you should be scouting for the roach max before just teching to templar and playing greedy with probe production, etc...
if you suspect roach max just focus on unit production (namely immortals) and make sure your hitting your forcefields and chronoboosting your gates/robo
On November 01 2012 12:13 Erik.TheRed wrote: Since imo this works best as a 3 base pre-BL all in on most maps, I'd suggest going up to 12 gates or so since you likely won't be adding any more immortals after 5-6 (assuming he's going for some roach+ling+infestor+spine comp) and even building a warp prism or two to help with the engagement. Even though chargelots+immortals do great against spines I've lost to zergs that get a good set of fungals down and have a good concave with their roach+ling+spines so what I'd recommend is to warp in some zealots in the back of the zerg's main + at their third and wait for them to pull back bits of their army (or 1A to the back of their base -_-) so you can clear the spines without the whole army sitting there as well.
You should be paying attention to where the zerg is setting up his defense and try to crash the tip of his concave. On cloud kingdom for example you'll see alot of zerg set up spines at their 4th and concave to defend the ramp that comes down into the 4th.
For this reason I prefer to just head to the low ground by the xel naga tower side and head straight in with a spread army, This is force the zerg to reposition his forces and make the spines a little more awkward defensively. It also gives you more room to spread out and avoid fungals. Then as you reinforce you can have units coming from either the top end down the ramp or following up behind your army.
Looks sweet, bookmarked and im gonna look into trying this out some, will probably need a few games to get everything down to a playable level though, a lot of stuff i like.
Stupid question but just to make sure:
The ultimate Protoss army is about 6 carriers, a mothership, a bunch of archons, about 6 templar for storming corruptors, and maybe a few void rays.
What would you do with the rest of your supply? How many probes do you think is good (standard 60-80, or is there a number you go for?), and what units would you fill the supply gap with?
On November 01 2012 12:30 Cyro wrote: Looks sweet, bookmarked and im gonna look into trying this out some, will probably need a few games to get everything down to a playable level though, a lot of stuff i like.
The ultimate Protoss army is about 6 carriers, a mothership, a bunch of archons, about 6 templar for storming corruptors, and maybe a few void rays.
What would you do with the rest of your supply? How many probes do you think is good (standard 60-80, or is there a number you go for?), and what units would you fill the supply gap with?
more carriers, it will also help if you have a prism with about 20 supply free for constant chargelot/dt harass around the map
Blink stalkers good til you can replace them? Im bad and my opponents are too so i keep getting into games on cloud kingdom where zerg spines up his 4'th and refuses to move from it until he has 20 broods and 20 infestors if protoss has a strong standing army and is harassing with WP's and denying bases
Very similar to the build I use, only I skip the early zealots / harass, and use the gold towards earlier cannoning at the third / expansion. Basically sentry/immortal composition first half of the game, I prefer the blink stalkers cause of the potential muta threat, but the heavy zeals are always nice
The ultimate Protoss army is about 6 carriers, a mothership, a bunch of archons, about 6 templar for storming corruptors, and maybe a few void rays.
What would you do with the rest of your supply? How many probes do you think is good (standard 60-80, or is there a number you go for?), and what units would you fill the supply gap with?
I'd recommend archons and voids for the rest of the supply to better protect your carriers from corruptors. More carriers can be a good choice too if you have enough air upgrades. Well-upgraded carriers can stand up to corruptors with storm support, and extra archons are never a bad thing.
I remember trying this out after i saw puck use it. I got a large part of my army fungaled and i thought i was dead, but i was eventually able to wear down the zerg as he ran out of infestor energy. Zealots are sooo cheap so u can warp them in off a ton of gateways and still keep a reasonable bank.
This particular composition is super powerful until broodlords are out, have you considered adding in immortal drops with a speed warp prism to snipe the spire tech?
I just don't ever see this holding stephano style which you are likely to evoke with the zealot pressure. Without forcefield abuse that is simply not stoppable imo, a few immortals is cool and all but they can't stop mass roach kiling you. As such I feel it's a metagame thing and don't like it, you can always transition into the zealot style later once you determined they are skipping the roach phase mostly.
In the section where you talk about how to respond to mutas, you don't mention building defensive cannons in mineral lines; is this just implied, or do you actually skip getting cannons versus the mutas?
On November 01 2012 15:45 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: In the section where you talk about how to respond to mutas, you don't mention building defensive cannons in mineral lines; is this just implied, or do you actually skip getting cannons versus the mutas?
I'd imagine so, plus vs Muta play you really need the gas income from the third base for templar tech so getting a relatively fast third is actually pretty helpful in itself in dealing with mutas.
wow looks like a really nice guide. I always thought zealots are a bit underrated in the matchup. Thanks a lot for posting this build!
Do you squeeze in warp prism harrass with zealots/maybe Immortal drops while you are building up or purely focus on making the push before broodlords as deadly as you can?
Quick questions, what's the sentry count you go for when you take your third? How many do you want for a 3base pre-bl timing/to defend roach max/if you see mutas?
Fairly solid looking. I used to do something very similar, except with 2 Immortal and 3 Sentries that hits at around 10 minutes. Third nexus goes down at 7 minutes, 3 Gate + Robo infrastructure. Of course this was a few months back when I was more active and it might be outdated now. Great thing about the Immortal Templar is it takes care of anything a Zerg can throw at you, except Brood Lords. As long as you the your 3 base timing properly it's just a really solid strong style.
How would banelings do against this? something like a ling infestor spine baneling composition? Or are you confident enough that your storm can clear the banes? What if Z uses bain rain then (targeting sentries then HT then zealots)? Do you usually do well against bane rain?
On November 01 2012 19:35 Natalya wrote: How would banelings do against this? something like a ling infestor spine baneling composition? Or are you confident enough that your storm can clear the banes? What if Z uses bain rain then (targeting sentries then HT then zealots)? Do you usually do well against bane rain?
Toss can take banelings in the face with Immortals, Archons or Zealots and be perfectly fine. Especially if the zealots are spread a little. Banelings are cost efficient when they role into Sentries or a bunch of clumped Stalkers.
On November 01 2012 14:46 Whitewing wrote: This particular composition is super powerful until broodlords are out, have you considered adding in immortal drops with a speed warp prism to snipe the spire tech?
I skip the support bay entirely, so I can't get the speed upgrade. 300 gas for prism speed is a lot, but it might be worth considering after mothership. I do recommend using slow prisms, but I wouldn't want to put immortals in them until Z has broodlords and the immortals are no longer valuable.
On November 01 2012 15:15 Markwerf wrote: I just don't ever see this holding stephano style which you are likely to evoke with the zealot pressure. Without forcefield abuse that is simply not stoppable imo, a few immortals is cool and all but they can't stop mass roach kiling you. As such I feel it's a metagame thing and don't like it, you can always transition into the zealot style later once you determined they are skipping the roach phase mostly.
Dunno what to say other than try it out and post replays here. I don't take the Stephano push lightly--I honestly find this build to be the easiest way to take a third against it. And you do have plenty of sentries by the time the roach push would start (around 10 minutes). You just also have a bunch of zealots and immortals with enough economy to take some damage and still be ahead. I find the zealots are very helpful because they deal with lings so well which means you don't need as many forcefields, and they tank for your sentries and immortals so you don't lose gas units during the defense.
On November 01 2012 15:45 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: In the section where you talk about how to respond to mutas, you don't mention building defensive cannons in mineral lines; is this just implied, or do you actually skip getting cannons versus the mutas?
If you decide that you'll be able to attack before the mutas hit, you can go ahead and skip the cannons. The goal is to pin the mutas home, and making a bunch of cannons will weaken your attack, making it vulnerable to dying to the muta/ling. If you decide to play defensively, sure, make cannons.
On November 01 2012 16:54 Bam Lee wrote: wow looks like a really nice guide. I always thought zealots are a bit underrated in the matchup. Thanks a lot for posting this build!
Do you squeeze in warp prism harrass with zealots/maybe Immortal drops while you are building up or purely focus on making the push before broodlords as deadly as you can?
Answered above, but I do recommend making prisms for zealot drops before broodlords. I don't get the support bay, so I can't upgrade prism speed. Zealot drops are always nice. Also, a prism can be really good with your main army as a mobile pylon and life-boat for expensive units. Check out LeiYa's stream. She's godly with prism control (the #1 reason she's top GM IMO), and she always goes for prism harass in midgame and then incorporates the prism into her main army for her push.
On November 01 2012 18:39 Teoita wrote: Quick questions, what's the sentry count you go for when you take your third? How many do you want for a 3base pre-bl timing/to defend roach max/if you see mutas?
1 sentry when I build the nexus. 3 more sentries (4 total) for my production round immediately following the zealot poke. I recommend putting one of the low-energy sentries at your natural and the higher-energy sentry along with 2 of the new ones at your third. Eventually, you want to get up to about 6 sentries with this build. If he's going for the 3-base roach all-in, you can make more if you need them.
def fast third seems like the best way to play pvz now imo.
thing is, wont a phoenix opening into third (only move out with 4-5 phoenixes) be better than a normal 4gate zeal poke since 1) chance to kill queens 2) deter mutas somewhat (probably the most annoying thing to face for toss nowadays)?
and theres reason why you dont see pro korean toss players do 4gate zeal pressure anymore... usually if z scout properly that you are not doing a 2 base allin the zeal poke would be completely ineffectual and a waste of resources as with good macro and larvae management the zerg player can make just barely enough roaches and lings in between his dronedronedrone routine to deal with that kind of pressure, which coincide with zerg wanting to pressure toss fast third.
One other suggestion I'll add is to try taking your third gas early and then mining off 3 gas with 2 probes each. It'll delay everything ever so slightly, but a sloppy zerg who relies on checking gas to know what you are doing and doesn't properly scout the main may overdrone and get caught, allowing your push to really do some damage / force way too many units.
On November 01 2012 22:19 brofestor wrote: def fast third seems like the best way to play pvz now imo.
thing is, wont a phoenix opening into third (only move out with 4-5 phoenixes) be better than a normal 4gate zeal poke since 1) chance to kill queens 2) deter mutas somewhat (probably the most annoying thing to face for toss nowadays)?
and theres reason why you dont see pro korean toss players do 4gate zeal pressure anymore... usually if z scout properly that you are not doing a 2 base allin the zeal poke would be completely ineffectual and a waste of resources as with good macro and larvae management the zerg player can make just barely enough roaches and lings in between his dronedronedrone routine to deal with that kind of pressure, which coincide with zerg wanting to pressure toss fast third.
I personally don't like phoenix openings vs Zerg. Yes, you'll do some damage, but stargate+4 phoenixes is 600/600 that will be mostly useless after your opening harass is done. I think you're better off expanding quicker and dumping those 1200 resources into combat units.
And regarding the soft zealot pressure, if you re-read the guide, you'll see that I'm not expecting the zealot pressure to do damage. Most of the time, I'm just warping in defensive zealots on Zerg's side of the map and walking them straight home. But Zerg has to respect 4 zealots and 1 stalker at his third at 7:40. If he builds no defense, he will lose drones and possibly his hatchery. I'm effectively trading a pylon to stall Zerg's droning before 8 minutes. This move isn't required, but it does weaken any roach max push that Zerg would want to do to take out your third. I think it helps.
I've just gone over the replay and i have a couple more questions: 1) Why delay the second gas that much? Is it to get that fast cyber core without cutting probes? 2) Why not get +1 faster? If you are concerned about minerals, you could go double gas and have two probes mining on each for a while; BabyKnight does it a lot when doing similar builds.
1) Yes, that's the fastest you can get the second gas without cutting probes. Also, the gas times out nicely with when I want my stalker, my robo, and it seems to leave me with 300 gas for a 3 sentry warp-in right as my cooldown ends after my 3 zealot warp-in.
2) I'm not sure when I got +1 weapons in that replay. I intend to get it right after I start my sentry. You can play with getting it earlier, but I'm not sure it would do much good. I like the gas/mineral income I'm currently getting with this build, and if I stick with those mining timings, right after the sentry is when I can afford +1 weapons. If I changed things around to get +1 weapons faster, I might have better zealot vs zergling efficiency earlier, but my twilight council timing would still hold back +2 weapons to the same timing. You could move the twilight council up earlier or get +1 armor after +1 weapons. I'm not sure an earlier twilight would be safe, but it can't hurt to try (except ladder points).
On November 01 2012 22:19 brofestor wrote: def fast third seems like the best way to play pvz now imo.
thing is, wont a phoenix opening into third (only move out with 4-5 phoenixes) be better than a normal 4gate zeal poke since 1) chance to kill queens 2) deter mutas somewhat (probably the most annoying thing to face for toss nowadays)?
and theres reason why you dont see pro korean toss players do 4gate zeal pressure anymore... usually if z scout properly that you are not doing a 2 base allin the zeal poke would be completely ineffectual and a waste of resources as with good macro and larvae management the zerg player can make just barely enough roaches and lings in between his dronedronedrone routine to deal with that kind of pressure, which coincide with zerg wanting to pressure toss fast third.
I personally don't like phoenix openings vs Zerg. Yes, you'll do some damage, but stargate+4 phoenixes is 600/600 that will be mostly useless after your opening harass is done. I think you're better off expanding quicker and dumping those 1200 resources into combat units.
And regarding the soft zealot pressure, if you re-read the guide, you'll see that I'm not expecting the zealot pressure to do damage. Most of the time, I'm just warping in defensive zealots on Zerg's side of the map and walking them straight home. But Zerg has to respect 4 zealots and 1 stalker at his third at 7:40. If he builds no defense, he will lose drones and possibly his hatchery. I'm effectively trading a pylon to stall Zerg's droning before 8 minutes. This move isn't required, but it does weaken any roach max push that Zerg would want to do to take out your third. I think it helps.
If you go with a quick robo anyway I prefer a light warp prism harass over a zealot poke. I find the zealot poke a bit riskier to perform and easier to stop for zerg. As i see it either you invest 100 in a pylon you lose (which sometimes just get's denied straight away) or you invest 200 in a warp prism that can continue to harass throughout and always secures the safe retreat. With a fast robo it's almost as fast anyway.
saw something like this about 2 or 3 months ago in a custom, but the P player did it off 2 bases before infestors pop out and skipped charge. When i chatted with him later he said that this helps vs roach kiting, as in your immortals dont stay behind while your retarded zealots charge and die/take hits and have to be pulled back - which means that if he wants to hit the zealots he has to tank immortal shots, and if he wants to hit the immortals he has to tank zealot hits
It's stronger vs infestor ling (which is what Zergs tend to do together with fast hive when they see p taking a third base), allows for strong harassment, and it can disrupt the infestors making it harder to land fungals.
Going immortal/archon off 2bases sounds really odd because 1) you can't hit before infestors are out 2) if you invest into that much tech before pushing the zerg has time to just max on roaches and overwhelm you anyway.
On November 02 2012 00:59 necrimanci wrote: saw something like this about 2 or 3 months ago in a custom, but the P player did it off 2 bases before infestors pop out and skipped charge. When i chatted with him later he said that this helps vs roach kiting, as in your immortals dont stay behind while your retarded zealots charge and die/take hits and have to be pulled back - which means that if he wants to hit the zealots he has to tank immortal shots, and if he wants to hit the immortals he has to tank zealot hits
whats your take on getting charge?
He might be right about charge not being worthwhile for his 2-base timing, but I'm doing a near-maxed push which hits later. A maxed Protoss army with 5+ immortals doesn't have to worry too much about roach kiting because if Z is roach-heavy at that point, Protoss is going to win. A 200 supply roach army just isn't strong enough, and if you've made that many roaches, your broodlords are delayed.
As for my push, yes, charge is very helpful. It makes the zealots far more effective for at this timing.
On November 01 2012 22:19 brofestor wrote: def fast third seems like the best way to play pvz now imo.
thing is, wont a phoenix opening into third (only move out with 4-5 phoenixes) be better than a normal 4gate zeal poke since 1) chance to kill queens 2) deter mutas somewhat (probably the most annoying thing to face for toss nowadays)?
and theres reason why you dont see pro korean toss players do 4gate zeal pressure anymore... usually if z scout properly that you are not doing a 2 base allin the zeal poke would be completely ineffectual and a waste of resources as with good macro and larvae management the zerg player can make just barely enough roaches and lings in between his dronedronedrone routine to deal with that kind of pressure, which coincide with zerg wanting to pressure toss fast third.
I personally don't like phoenix openings vs Zerg. Yes, you'll do some damage, but stargate+4 phoenixes is 600/600 that will be mostly useless after your opening harass is done. I think you're better off expanding quicker and dumping those 1200 resources into combat units.
And regarding the soft zealot pressure, if you re-read the guide, you'll see that I'm not expecting the zealot pressure to do damage. Most of the time, I'm just warping in defensive zealots on Zerg's side of the map and walking them straight home. But Zerg has to respect 4 zealots and 1 stalker at his third at 7:40. If he builds no defense, he will lose drones and possibly his hatchery. I'm effectively trading a pylon to stall Zerg's droning before 8 minutes. This move isn't required, but it does weaken any roach max push that Zerg would want to do to take out your third. I think it helps.
If you go with a quick robo anyway I prefer a light warp prism harass over a zealot poke. I find the zealot poke a bit riskier to perform and easier to stop for zerg. As i see it either you invest 100 in a pylon you lose (which sometimes just get's denied straight away) or you invest 200 in a warp prism that can continue to harass throughout and always secures the safe retreat. With a fast robo it's almost as fast anyway.
Not a bad idea. I'm not sure how well warp prism harass would work with this build because you don't have the big warpgate stockpile to make the harass powerful, and you can't afford to lose too many units if you want to keep your defense safe. Zerg might be able to simply tail the prism with a dozen lings and be perfectly safe.
On November 01 2012 22:19 brofestor wrote: def fast third seems like the best way to play pvz now imo.
thing is, wont a phoenix opening into third (only move out with 4-5 phoenixes) be better than a normal 4gate zeal poke since 1) chance to kill queens 2) deter mutas somewhat (probably the most annoying thing to face for toss nowadays)?
and theres reason why you dont see pro korean toss players do 4gate zeal pressure anymore... usually if z scout properly that you are not doing a 2 base allin the zeal poke would be completely ineffectual and a waste of resources as with good macro and larvae management the zerg player can make just barely enough roaches and lings in between his dronedronedrone routine to deal with that kind of pressure, which coincide with zerg wanting to pressure toss fast third.
I personally don't like phoenix openings vs Zerg. Yes, you'll do some damage, but stargate+4 phoenixes is 600/600 that will be mostly useless after your opening harass is done. I think you're better off expanding quicker and dumping those 1200 resources into combat units.
And regarding the soft zealot pressure, if you re-read the guide, you'll see that I'm not expecting the zealot pressure to do damage. Most of the time, I'm just warping in defensive zealots on Zerg's side of the map and walking them straight home. But Zerg has to respect 4 zealots and 1 stalker at his third at 7:40. If he builds no defense, he will lose drones and possibly his hatchery. I'm effectively trading a pylon to stall Zerg's droning before 8 minutes. This move isn't required, but it does weaken any roach max push that Zerg would want to do to take out your third. I think it helps.
If you go with a quick robo anyway I prefer a light warp prism harass over a zealot poke. I find the zealot poke a bit riskier to perform and easier to stop for zerg. As i see it either you invest 100 in a pylon you lose (which sometimes just get's denied straight away) or you invest 200 in a warp prism that can continue to harass throughout and always secures the safe retreat. With a fast robo it's almost as fast anyway.
Not a bad idea. I'm not sure how well warp prism harass would work with this build because you don't have the big warpgate stockpile to make the harass powerful, and you can't afford to lose too many units if you want to keep your defense safe. Zerg might be able to simply tail the prism with a dozen lings and be perfectly safe.
It's an option to consider tho.
you can just make the zealots old-fashioned style and preload them into the warp prism, you can easily drop onto small numbers of lings then. I just prefer the control you have with warp prism, if some roaches suddenly pop while you try to attack the drones you don't immediately lose all your zealots. Maybe it's just because i'm bad at getting up a proxy pylon if i'm not allinning, i got denied way too often if i tried to do a minimal zealot poke.
Sick dude this solves a lot of problems for me. I've been working off something similar for a while. I usually skip the zealot pressure, took my gasses earlier and showed the ovie the makings of immortal sentry all in hoping to force earlier speed and more ling/roach. I have always been trying to make it work with blink but that slowed down my Templar tech and limited my gateway count as I had to take gasses earlier.
I really like this. But if the obs sees consistent roach production to compliment the infestors I still think I'd stick with blink. Timings shouldn't be too punishing as he would have to delay hive and greater spire if he wants to be roach heavier.
I played this style twice today and won both times. After I took my 3rd i ended up throwing down another forge and got double upgrades. I thought that this made my push a lot stronger and if it did not end the game right there, I had a massive upgrade lead to help fight broodlord infestor later on in the game.
On November 02 2012 02:58 Chronald wrote: This looks a lot like sSonLight's PvZ style.
Awesome guide!
A couple people have told me this. I'll have to check out sSonLight's stream. Sounds like there should be good info to learn from.
On November 02 2012 03:23 MysteryMeat1 wrote: I played this style twice today and won both times. After I took my 3rd i ended up throwing down another forge and got double upgrades. I thought that this made my push a lot stronger and if it did not end the game right there, I had a massive upgrade lead to help fight broodlord infestor later on in the game.
Double forge is a great idea for this style. You rely on zealots to tank a lot of low-damage hits from zerglings, infested terrans, and broodlings, and armor upgrades should scale well for this purpose. I'm not sure exactly when to get the second forge--probably right after your twilight council assuming you've scouted an infestation pit.
That's a very sentry-heavy style that's quite different than what I'm doing. It works because Zerg is afraid of an immortal/sentry all-in, and for this reason, he delays his infestation pit which in turn delays his hive and broodlords. That can be a very strong play in its own right, but with that style, your army is very vulnerable to chain fungals. I think a more zealot-heavy composition (less sentries and higher economy) will prove to be more robust over time.
Isn't this similar to what Naniwa did against DRG a couple of month ago in the GSL on entombed valley?
It seems like Zerg is completely powerless against this unit composition before broodlords, i think its weird that this hasn't become the standard push to kill the zerg before broodlords considering colloses/stalker can be killed by infestors, spines and corruptors alone.
Kcdc, in your replays your upgrades are 2/0 when your attack hits. Is there a reason you're not researching armor upgrade too ? You're investing so much into zealots and immortals, it sounds like you'd have some extra gas to afford more upgrades.. and given the amount of zealots, shouldn't armor be a higher priority to tank damage ?
On November 02 2012 04:17 Nyast wrote: Kcdc, in your replays your upgrades are 2/0 when your attack hits. Is there a reason you're not researching armor upgrade too ? You're investing so much into zealots and immortals, it sounds like you'd have some extra gas to afford more upgrades.. and given the amount of zealots, shouldn't armor be a higher priority to tank damage ?
Yes, I suspect that a second forge would improve the build. I'll be experimenting with incorporating double upgrades this week.
I'd also like to be able to hit +3 weapons for the attack. It might be possible with better chronoboosting and a more crisp timing on my twilight council. That may come with practice as my execution improves.
On November 02 2012 04:17 Nyast wrote: Kcdc, in your replays your upgrades are 2/0 when your attack hits. Is there a reason you're not researching armor upgrade too ? You're investing so much into zealots and immortals, it sounds like you'd have some extra gas to afford more upgrades.. and given the amount of zealots, shouldn't armor be a higher priority to tank damage ?
Yes, I suspect that a second forge would improve the build. I'll be experimenting with incorporating double upgrades this week.
I'd also like to be able to hit +3 weapons for the attack. It might be possible with better chronoboosting and a more crisp timing on my twilight council. That may come with practice as my execution improves.
You should consider getting +1 Shields too
Shields for Immortal make max damage 9, they help archons too.
Shields for Immortal make max damage 9, they help archons too.
I thought shield upgrades only helped immortals if the damage was 10 or below, and that even an archon with 3 shield upgrades would still take 10 damage from a seige tank.
On November 02 2012 04:17 Nyast wrote: Kcdc, in your replays your upgrades are 2/0 when your attack hits. Is there a reason you're not researching armor upgrade too ? You're investing so much into zealots and immortals, it sounds like you'd have some extra gas to afford more upgrades.. and given the amount of zealots, shouldn't armor be a higher priority to tank damage ?
Yes, I suspect that a second forge would improve the build. I'll be experimenting with incorporating double upgrades this week.
I'd also like to be able to hit +3 weapons for the attack. It might be possible with better chronoboosting and a more crisp timing on my twilight council. That may come with practice as my execution improves.
You should consider getting +1 Shields too
Shields for Immortal make max damage 9, they help archons too.
I don't think it works that way with hardened shields, pretty sure shield upgrades prevent the damage before hardened shields are applied.
Looks like I've got some testing to do.
On November 02 2012 04:20 Belha wrote: It's just me, or the zealot in the 2nd picture have a sword???
What, you didn't know that 1 in every 1,000 zealots you make is a Samurai Zealot with a Katana?
On November 02 2012 04:17 Nyast wrote: Kcdc, in your replays your upgrades are 2/0 when your attack hits. Is there a reason you're not researching armor upgrade too ? You're investing so much into zealots and immortals, it sounds like you'd have some extra gas to afford more upgrades.. and given the amount of zealots, shouldn't armor be a higher priority to tank damage ?
Yes, I suspect that a second forge would improve the build. I'll be experimenting with incorporating double upgrades this week.
I'd also like to be able to hit +3 weapons for the attack. It might be possible with better chronoboosting and a more crisp timing on my twilight council. That may come with practice as my execution improves.
You should consider getting +1 Shields too
Shields for Immortal make max damage 9, they help archons too.
Ya i like adding the twilight council a little bit earlier and get a second forge earlier as well. Depending on what i was scouting I delayed my push a little bit. because i wasn't quite maxed out and broodlords weren't coming for a bit. The nice thing about hitting a bit later is that they will attack with their army to delay while morphing in broodlords. however the bls come about 15-20 seconds too late and i can kill their 4th and 5th base and walk back to mine or depending on support take out a few of the bls.
1) The pre-broodlord timing should have 12 gates instead of 10.
2) Double forge is essential for this build. Infested terrans are the biggest enemy of a non-colossus push, and having 2/2 or 3/2 gives you a huge upgrade advantage over them. Chargelots with +2 armor and GS are fantastic in this situation. Additionally, having armor sets you up nicely for the late game, as +3 armor chargelot warpins via a prism are incredibly good vs. defensive spines. As others have mentioned, StarDust aka SsonLight has been pioneering this style lately and has been pretty successful with it.
Double forge does have a downside: your margin for error is thinner when setting up the third base. A dedicated roach push can be tricky to hold, so you have to know what you're doing. The observer must also stay alive to sniff out any muta tech, because unscouted mutas will end the game immediately.
Personally I think this style is better than the normal colossus pre-broodlord timing because of the easy warp prism harass follow-up. It's possible to prevent the zerg from ever getting a deathball even if the push doesn't outright kill him. Even a mothership won't save you from broodlord infestor, so the best way to counter the deathball is by not allowing it to be made.
On November 02 2012 06:17 city42 wrote: A couple things:
1) The pre-broodlord timing should have 12 gates instead of 10.
2) Double forge is essential for this build. Infested terrans are the biggest enemy of a non-colossus push, and having 2/2 or 3/2 gives you a huge upgrade advantage over them. Chargelots with +2 armor and GS are fantastic in this situation. Additionally, having armor sets you up nicely for the late game, as +3 armor chargelot warpins via a prism are incredibly good vs. defensive spines. As others have mentioned, StarDust aka SsonLight has been pioneering this style lately and has been pretty successful with it.
Double forge does have a downside: your margin for error is thinner when setting up the third base. A dedicated roach push can be tricky to hold, so you have to know what you're doing. The observer must also stay alive to sniff out any muta tech, because unscouted mutas will end the game immediately.
Personally I think this style is better than the normal colossus pre-broodlord timing because of the easy warp prism harass follow-up. It's possible to prevent the zerg from ever getting a deathball even if the push doesn't outright kill him. Even a mothership won't save you from broodlord infestor, so the best way to counter the deathball is by not allowing it to be made.
Good post.
I've gone back and forth on 10 gates vs 12. I think 10 is a good choice if you're taking a fourth and teching mothership behind the push because the extra infrastructure/tech keeps your money low for at least the start of the push. Once you're no longer building immortals and you have your mothership started, you do start to pile up a resource bank, so extra gates are necessary unless you're going straight into a stargate transition--in which case you need more stargates instead.
If you want to go for a stronger push with slower mothership but more aggressive warp prism harass, 12 gates is the better option.
I wouldn't call double forge essential, but it sounds like it should be a good addition. Infested terrans get mowed down by storms pretty quickly. On top of the reduced zergling and infested terran damage, I'd be most interested in armor upgrades for the improved broodlord/broodling tanking. 3/3 zealots can be surprisingly good against broodlords if you have storms to wear the broodlords down and stalkers to finish them off. Having zealots really slows the damage you take, allowing the storm damage to take effect.
On November 02 2012 06:17 city42 wrote: A couple things:
1) The pre-broodlord timing should have 12 gates instead of 10.
2) Double forge is essential for this build. Infested terrans are the biggest enemy of a non-colossus push, and having 2/2 or 3/2 gives you a huge upgrade advantage over them. Chargelots with +2 armor and GS are fantastic in this situation. Additionally, having armor sets you up nicely for the late game, as +3 armor chargelot warpins via a prism are incredibly good vs. defensive spines. As others have mentioned, StarDust aka SsonLight has been pioneering this style lately and has been pretty successful with it.
Double forge does have a downside: your margin for error is thinner when setting up the third base. A dedicated roach push can be tricky to hold, so you have to know what you're doing. The observer must also stay alive to sniff out any muta tech, because unscouted mutas will end the game immediately.
Personally I think this style is better than the normal colossus pre-broodlord timing because of the easy warp prism harass follow-up. It's possible to prevent the zerg from ever getting a deathball even if the push doesn't outright kill him. Even a mothership won't save you from broodlord infestor, so the best way to counter the deathball is by not allowing it to be made.
Good post.
I've gone back and forth on 10 gates vs 12. I think 10 is a good choice if you're taking a fourth and teching mothership behind the push because the extra infrastructure/tech keeps your money low for at least the start of the push. Once you're no longer building immortals and you have your mothership started, you do start to pile up a resource bank, so extra gates are necessary unless you're going straight into a stargate transition--in which case you need more stargates instead.
If you want to go for a stronger push with slower mothership but more aggressive warp prism harass, 12 gates is the better option.
I wouldn't call double forge essential, but it sounds like it should be a good addition. Infested terrans get mowed down by storms pretty quickly. On top of the reduced zergling and infested terran damage, I'd be most interested in armor upgrades for the improved broodlord/broodling tanking. 3/3 zealots can be surprisingly good against broodlords if you have storms to wear the broodlords down and stalkers to finish them off. Having zealots really slows the damage you take, allowing the storm damage to take effect.
Im still not entirely sure about getting armor vs getting shield upgrades. I feel like getting shield upgrades sets you up nicer for transitioning but getting armor makes your push just a tiny bit stronger. The reason i like going shields is because they are more beneficial for archons as well as carry over to voids and mothership.
What do you think about using the hallucinate to perhaps make some fake colossus and show it to the zerg in a watch tower or to an ovie. They may over compensate which should lead to an easier time in the main fight. The obs is already good at the scouting part, and if anything we can use it to make fake zealots to soak up some fungal damage.
So far this build hasn't lost for me yet. I played some mid to high masters that went the standard ling/roach into infestor to the eventual brood lords. Very impressive meta-game build in my opinion.
One thing I couldn't quite get from it is the number of sentries you get. I get the feeling it's on the low side, but I would like some precise numbers please.
On November 02 2012 19:21 Shikada wrote: Another awesome guide kcdc.
One thing I couldn't quite get from it is the number of sentries you get. I get the feeling it's on the low side, but I would like some precise numbers please.
I've asked him in the thread; his answer was:
On November 01 2012 21:54 kcdc wrote: 1 sentry when I build the nexus. 3 more sentries (4 total) for my production round immediately following the zealot poke. I recommend putting one of the low-energy sentries at your natural and the higher-energy sentry along with 2 of the new ones at your third. Eventually, you want to get up to about 6 sentries with this build. If he's going for the 3-base roach all-in, you can make more if you need them.
I really like this build concept and I have for quite a while tried to figure out how to incorporate zealot/immortal to get quicker tech and econ, but just havnt gotten it down... This is exactly what I was trying to achieve and it works really well for me so far! I make 2 forges though, since I really feel like you can fight with broodlords if it gets to that with high armor stalkers, while you want for mothership.. This allows you to keep up the agression!
Replay showing how to pin mutas with a gateway attack. I stayed on 4 gas, but 6 would have been better. Because I was too low on gas, I couldn't transition to storm, so the attack was more all-in than it really needed to be.
Great guide and build kcdc. I had given up on 3-base play, but I like this. It's smart. The genius of using zealots for early defense is that in conjunction with Immortals and cannons, they can't actually kite the zealots without taking more damage than they deal.
The third still seems unsafe to me, though I'll take your word that given ample micro, you can hold it.
I think I'm going to try this out in the beta, too. It's complete theorycrafting, but I'd imagine your frequent pushes would work well with the MsC's recall ability - and that any hole in your defenses in WoL would be shored up by Purify.
It was against GM player ToXSiK who I'm pretty sure I'd never beaten before, although we've played probably 10 times. The guy owns me, so the fact that I finally took a game off him (and that he complimented the build before leaving) is a good sign that this is a strong play style.
On November 03 2012 05:16 usNEUX wrote: So any thoughts on how to play against this from the Z perspective? This build is brutal
Well, it's a relatively stable macro style, so you should mostly expect to just have to outplay your opponent to beat it. But beyond standard play with good execution, I've seen two off-beat styles that totally kicked my ass.
(1) Infestation pit fake into hidden spire. He saw my obs as his lair finished, dropped an infestation pit for me to see, and then proxied a spire with an OL. It was on Condemned Ridge which is way too big, and I didn't catch on at all. 20 mutas showed up in my main and it was GG.
(2) Infinity spine crawlers. This game was on Cloud Kingdom, and the guy built enough zerglings to hold my opening zealot pressure, and then built NOTHING but drones, spines, and infestors up until his broodlords popped at 15 minutes. He must have had 60+ spines on the map by the time my push hit around 14 minutes. I wasn't totally out of the game because I had storm and a mothership on the way, but he was able to get a huge infestor broodlord ball up really fast because he spent no gas on anything else. I held his first attack, but eventually lost. Broodlords are really good.
Please please please don't do #2 tho. You're not going pro and nobody has fun if you do that.
Ha, this is why I'm seeing this style on ladder. You are to blame! First couple of games I was literally like the picture you posted, "WTF is this?".
I started to do a ling/bane/infestor composition instead of pure ling infestor, add roaches when archons start to be added into the mix, works pretty good so far in my games, low master level. What do you think about this approach?
On November 03 2012 05:44 w3jjjj wrote: Ha, this is why I'm seeing this style on ladder. You are to blame! First couple of games I was literally like the picture you posted, "WTF is this?".
I started to do a ling/bane/infestor composition instead of pure ling infestor, add roaches when archons start to be added into the mix, works pretty good so far in my games, low master level. What do you think about this approach?
Could work okay--depends on macro, control, and most importantly, when P gets storm. I'm not sure how you're planning to use the banelings, but they're going to be useless as soon as P gets storm. P may be relatively short on forcefields, so perhaps the banelings could be useful in the midgame before storm completes. It's hard to imagine them being better than roaches for that purpose, but I haven't played against it.
Chargelots are ridiculously underrated against Zerg. Especially against infestor based armies with no broodlord support (like the timing in your guide!). Trying to fungal a stream of 25 chargelots coming at you from every angle while micro'ing the infestors back is no easy task and they're totally expendable!
Ah, so this is the build you beat me with. This build is very strong but I do want to say one thing here, if you see zerg making mass units of of four bases (roach infestor/ling) and going for a more delayed GS, I would recommend waiting to hit until their spire is completely done and they waste supply in corrupters for the broods. This timing hits super fast tho so i don't know really what you need to worry about.
The biggest thing that fucks zerg over with this build is that they only see 2 gas taken by the toss, which usually means gate all in if they haven't seen the third base, so if zerg gets caught not teching to lair and pumping out roach ling before they should be, they are in a mountain of trouble once toss has the third up.
So two things: Deny scouting of the zerg so they can't see you take the third or your lack of mass gates, and watch out for mass roach on 4 base (roach ling drops) as I see a low tech high unit count build could cause this build some trouble.
On November 04 2012 13:51 ToXSiK wrote: Ah, so this is the build you beat me with. This build is very strong but I do want to say one thing here, if you see zerg making mass units of of four bases (roach infestor/ling) and going for a more delayed GS, I would recommend waiting to hit until their spire is completely done and they waste supply in corrupters for the broods. This timing hits super fast tho so i don't know really what you need to worry about.
The biggest thing that fucks zerg over with this build is that they only see 2 gas taken by the toss, which usually means gate all in if they haven't seen the third base, so if zerg gets caught not teching to lair and pumping out roach ling before they should be, they are in a mountain of trouble once toss has the third up.
So two things: Deny scouting of the zerg so they can't see you take the third or your lack of mass gates, and watch out for mass roach on 4 base (roach ling drops) as I see a low tech high unit count build could cause this build some trouble.
watch leenock vs oz game 7 recently on mlg, on only 3 bases Leenock multi pronged attacks on the main(ol drops) and third tore Oz apart.
On November 04 2012 13:51 ToXSiK wrote: Ah, so this is the build you beat me with. This build is very strong but I do want to say one thing here, if you see zerg making mass units of of four bases (roach infestor/ling) and going for a more delayed GS, I would recommend waiting to hit until their spire is completely done and they waste supply in corrupters for the broods. This timing hits super fast tho so i don't know really what you need to worry about.
The biggest thing that fucks zerg over with this build is that they only see 2 gas taken by the toss, which usually means gate all in if they haven't seen the third base, so if zerg gets caught not teching to lair and pumping out roach ling before they should be, they are in a mountain of trouble once toss has the third up.
So two things: Deny scouting of the zerg so they can't see you take the third or your lack of mass gates, and watch out for mass roach on 4 base (roach ling drops) as I see a low tech high unit count build could cause this build some trouble.
watch leenock vs oz game 7 recently on mlg, on only 3 bases Leenock multi pronged attacks on the main(ol drops) and third tore Oz apart.
I can't watch the VOD so I don't know what style Oz went for, but I will say that this zealot/immortal composition makes it much easier to deal with drops and multi-pronged attacks because you can split your force effectively, and you don't have to land good forcefields in order to trade well. It's sort of like how Terran drops are easier to handle if you open twilight into templar than if you open up colossi. Sentries and colossi like to ball up, but zealots can split apart and do their own thing.
Anyone have replays using this build? I'd like to see how others use it and how more Zergs respond. If any lower level players want to post replays, I'm also happy to give advice/feedback.
Also, I'm updating the guide to recommend 12 gates. After more testing, 12 gates feels stronger than 10. I'm finding that if you're able to find soft spots in Zerg's defenses to force unit trades, you need faster unit reinforcement, and you don't need an early mothership.
I've gotten pretty good at keeping the infestor energy at manageable levels and keeping Z's economy in check, and I'm finding that with +3 armor, broodlords aren't even scary. I'm usually 1 armor upgrade ahead of Z's melee upgrades, which means broodlings deal all of 2 damage per shot. If you did a single forge style without armor upgrades, the broodlings would deal 5 to 6 damage per shot depending on Z's upgrades. So the armor upgrades cut broodling damage by 60+%.
It's amazing how much this helps your army. I've gone into fights against broodlords with less than half his army value where I thought I was 100% dead and I wound up winning easily. Besides the armor upgrades, I also tend to have a good archon count, and I find archons to be better than colossi at cleaning up broodlings. They really keep your stalkers clean of broodlings after your blink-under.
It seems like I'm winning almost all my games where Z goes for infestor broodlord (particularly on Ohana where it's hard to spine up the whole map). Maybe that comp isn't OP after all....
I've been playing with this build and my execution of it is still really bad but the more I play, the better I am at it. I remember seeing similar builds in the gsl but with stalkers as well. Do you usually include have many stalkers in your pre broodlord timing?
On November 06 2012 14:18 DropTester wrote: I've been playing with this build and my execution of it is still really bad but the more I play, the better I am at it. I remember seeing similar builds in the gsl but with stalkers as well. Do you usually include have many stalkers in your pre broodlord timing?
I don't usually, but if you can get blink out in time for the push, it could be good to make 7 stalkers to blink and 1-shot infestors that are out of range of your templar. I don't see a reason to make more than 7 stalkers until Z has broods.
Also, I've found myself skipping the mothership more and more, relying on just gateway units to handle the broodlords. It's been surprisingly effective. I'm not sure how long that will last.
On November 06 2012 14:18 DropTester wrote: I've been playing with this build and my execution of it is still really bad but the more I play, the better I am at it. I remember seeing similar builds in the gsl but with stalkers as well. Do you usually include have many stalkers in your pre broodlord timing?
I don't usually, but if you can get blink out in time for the push, it could be good to make 7 stalkers to blink and 1-shot infestors that are out of range of your templar. I don't see a reason to make more than 7 stalkers until Z has broods.
Also, I've found myself skipping the mothership more and more, relying on just gateway units to handle the broodlords. It's been surprisingly effective. I'm not sure how long that will last.
Waaait...what? Skipping/delaying mothership? For how long? Replays yo!
I've only seen HerO fight infestor/broodlod succesfully without it and even then, he just gets ridicolous flanks with groups of blink stalkers and templar so he gets sick positioning/feedbacks off.
This is very good. Yesterday was zerg day (7 games, seven zergs, or randoms drawing zerg!), and I exclusively did this build. Very sloppily of course, I'm only diamond after all. It's surprisingly effective! I mostly encountered two things: lotsa roaches, which with 5 immortals or more did not even require forcefields ; quick tech to hive + BLs. Man this last one leaves a sorry zerg ass. They were all crushed by the pre-BL bust.
Zerg friends, beware. You cannot rush to hive against this. You will die.
That build can work, but I think the 3g robo option is better for a few reasons. First, the fast robo means fast observers. For a while, I tried to take my third before observers, and I found that I was constantly fearing the roach max. Preparing for the roach max left me in a bad spot when Zerg went for infestor or muta play. Secondly, I think my expansion is quite a bit safer. If you make 5 stalkers like that, you won't have nearly as much DPS as I'm getting with my zealot/sentry/immortal composition. And the fast robo means you have time to get an observer to watch his tech, a second observer to spot his army movements, and enough immortals to defend the push.
On November 06 2012 14:18 DropTester wrote: I've been playing with this build and my execution of it is still really bad but the more I play, the better I am at it. I remember seeing similar builds in the gsl but with stalkers as well. Do you usually include have many stalkers in your pre broodlord timing?
I don't usually, but if you can get blink out in time for the push, it could be good to make 7 stalkers to blink and 1-shot infestors that are out of range of your templar. I don't see a reason to make more than 7 stalkers until Z has broods.
Also, I've found myself skipping the mothership more and more, relying on just gateway units to handle the broodlords. It's been surprisingly effective. I'm not sure how long that will last.
Waaait...what? Skipping/delaying mothership? For how long? Replays yo!
I've only seen HerO fight infestor/broodlod succesfully without it and even then, he just gets ridicolous flanks with groups of blink stalkers and templar so he gets sick positioning/feedbacks off.
It seems to work in situations where you know you can damage economy. If Zerg can sit back and make 25 broods, you can't possibly win with just gateway units. But if you can snipe his fresh bases and put a timer on his economy so that he has to start moving around on the map with 8 or 10 broodlords, gateway units often get the job done quite nicely.
The first replay is on Condemned Ridge which is a huge open map which forces you to spread your bases after your first 3. I feel confident that I'll be able to pull him apart although I get a little nervous when my first few attempts get shut down. Then I drop his main while hitting his 5th, and he loses his hive and spire which forces him to attack with just 9 broodlords. Easy win for team stalker.
The second replay is on Cloud Kingdom which does allow for Zerg to sit on spines, but in this game, Zerg instead went for infestor-roach pressure before going hive. I figured that his defenses would be weak and I'd be able to do big damage with my counter push. I wound up killing some bases and then got chased away by broodlords. I kept denying economy, and he never got his broodlord count high enough to beat stalkers.
I had one on Ohana too which was my best example of GW units beating broods, but I can't seem to find it. The key is dealing damage to force the action before Z has too many broods.
Shows how hard GW units can rock broods in the right situations. Side note: I was getting really annoying lag spikes that seemed to find a way to happen mostly at the starts of fights.
Seriously that fight at 20-21 doesn't make any sense to me. What the hell.
Questions: 1) Why warp in a round of zealots when he pushes back to your proxy pylon with his broods? My brain goes into OMG NEED STALKERS MODE in that spot. 2) Why not feedback the queens and infestors instead of storming?
1) I needed zealots to handle the broodlings and zerglings (and what was left of the roaches). If I warp in stalkers there, my archons are the front line of tanking, they die, and I lose. I do think it's interesting that I went for a round of pure zealots in a situation where I was fighting broodlords and I had only 2 stalkers. When I watched the replay, I didn't even notice that the decision would have seemed weird. I was thinking I need zealots to stretch the fight out and push the ground back, and then I can warp in stalkers in the next batch to kill the broods.
Archons keep the broodlings and zerglings off your stalkers to an extent, but I like to have a nice wall of zealots to push forward to get in range. Zealots and archons push toward the BL's, and when the time is right, I blink under. If you blink under too soon, you get rocked. It's important to not blink too far ahead of your archons because the archons keep your stalkers alive by cleaning up the lings. A lot of times, you can get in range to hit a couple broods without blowing your blink cooldown. This is even better as the zealots will remain in front.
Also, you don't need that many stalkers. I was 2-shotting one broodlord at a time, and it worked just fine. I use the stalkers as a strike force rather than using stalkers as my main army.
2) There was a lot of shit there and I couldn't tell what was what. I also got a huge lag spike at the start of that fight or I would have feedbacked the infestors early. The start of that fight wasn't microed at all--I started retreating as soon as I could control. At the end, I was storming hoping to hit broods and infestors at the same time.
3) You didn't ask, but I had 3/3/0 and he had 1/0/1. He also only had 9 fungals at the start of the fight, and you can cut a bunch of those out with feedback. If you can micro, you'll beat broods unless there are 20 of them.
Nice rep. The main difference between what you did in that replay and what I do is that you took a 6:30 third off of 1 gateway whereas I take a 7:30 third off of 3 gates and a robo. I really think that the 3 gate robo option is much better.
Most importantly, I have much earlier observers which allows me to scout and react to Zerg's lair tech path. I have an observer in Zerg's base shortly before his lair completes. This lets me know what to prepare for as soon as Zerg starts down that path. You didn't have a robo complete until 9:30 at which point you think, "Oh shit, a million roaches might be coming--I better start immortal production!" Your first observer finally comes out at 10:30. If he'd gone muta instead of infestor, you'd be dead.
Secondly, I have earlier access to immortals. And lastly, my economy relative to Zerg's economy is in the same spot (or maybe a little better) that yours is relative to Zerg's. At 12 minutes, you'd be around 130 food if you hadn't lost anything which is right where my build is. Meanwhile, my 3g pressure slightly stalls Zerg's economy at 8 minutes with a little better effect than your later pressure which hits when Zerg is more or less done droning anyway.
On November 07 2012 22:12 Teoita wrote: Ok what the fuck did i just watch.
Seriously that fight at 20-21 doesn't make any sense to me. What the hell.
Questions: 1) Why warp in a round of zealots when he pushes back to your proxy pylon with his broods? My brain goes into OMG NEED STALKERS MODE in that spot. 2) Why not feedback the queens and infestors instead of storming?
Big thing to note - kcdc had a huge upgrade advantage in that game. The broodlings were doing 1 damage per attack. The lings were doing 2. Does this fight look the same if the upgrades are similar? If not, I wonder what timing would be appropriate to add the stargate back into play (i.e. at the point when the upgrades are the same and they have BLs and Infestors).
Don't get me wrong, I think it's amazing that gateway units are killing BL/Infestor (I wanna do it too!) - I'm just looking for potential flies in the ointment.
Yeah, you want SG unless there's some situation that makes you confident that you can end the game w/o it. I personally have more fun w/o the SG (the mothership is so damn sloooooow), so I usually try to make it work w/o, but I think the MS is probably a higher % win play than the extra archons you get w/ the gas.
Shows how hard GW units can rock broods in the right situations. Side note: I was getting really annoying lag spikes that seemed to find a way to happen mostly at the starts of fights.
Hey, I just have a critique of this specific game...not saying you didn't do well...but your opponent had barely any upgrades at the big fight around 20mins...You won by quite a small margin in that fight (although there was lag on your part) I feel like the fight should have went in the zergs favor if he had properly upgraded his units...he was at 1-1 for his melee and 0-1 for his roaches which I feel is what swung the fight into your favor (you had 3-3)
P.S. You did point out something that actually never occurred to me, that using zealots to tank the broodlings can help you push your archons under the broods if they don't have enough other army supply... Thanks a bunch for that =]
Shows how hard GW units can rock broods in the right situations. Side note: I was getting really annoying lag spikes that seemed to find a way to happen mostly at the starts of fights.
Hey, I just have a critique of this specific game...not saying you didn't do well...but your opponent had barely any upgrades at the big fight around 20mins...You won by quite a small margin in that fight (although there was lag on your part) I feel like the fight should have went in the zergs favor if he had properly upgraded his units...he was at 1-1 for his melee and 0-1 for his roaches which I feel is what swung the fight into your favor (you had 3-3)
P.S. You did point out something that actually never occurred to me, that using zealots to tank the broodlings can help you push your archons under the broods if they don't have enough other army supply... Thanks a bunch for that =]
Yeah, the upgrades make a difference. It would have been more normal for Zerg to be at 2-0-2 there with 3-0-3 on the way. Or since he was going for midgame aggression with roaches and infestors, it might have made more sense to go for missile upgrades insteadof melee upgrades.
On the other hand, if I didn't get a lag spike, I would have been able to micro the start of the fight which would have let me feedback a bunch of infestors, storm the broodlords, and keep my army together rather than have halves of it run into 2 different spine walls.
On the topic of the SG timing, your first vortex becomes available about 5 minutes after you start your SG (assuming 5 chronoboost on mothership). The standard defensive hive timing is 11 minutes, which can get Zerg his first broodlords at 15 minutes. Your aggression should slow him down some, and you can win the fight with just storm, archons, zealots and stalkers if he pushes with a low broodlord count, so I think it's reasonable to time up your first vortex for 18 or 19 minutes. This translates to a 13 or 14 minute stargate timing.
Hello kcdc. I gave this strategy a couple tries on the ladder with some good results: a couple wins, a couple losses. The overall feeling was pretty good. I could tell that the losses were caused simply by my lack of familiarity with the opening (everything was coming out a bit slow).
Afterwards I was analysing your replays and attempting to hit all the timings just right agaist the computer, and I have found that to use this opening optimally requires a great deal of precision. However, when done correctly (that is to say, precisely) this build indeed safely secures an amazingly fast third base, and gives Protoss both the recon and tech access needed to respond properly to the zerg opponent's particular playstyle.
so far I have been unable to complete the second and third gateways in time to line up with a warpgate research chronoboosted 3 times without cutting probes, so I have decided to chronoboost it only twice. I am going to keep familiarizing myself with this opening against the computer and try again on ladder tomorrow.
Just watched Parting vs Hyun in IPL Hyun Club. Parting went for robo twilight expand quite a few times, and every time, it seemed to put him way behind. Why on earth are phoenix openings and robo twilight openings the standard ways to take a third in PvZ?
Have people been struggling to hold their thirds with this build? For entering a macro game, the opening used in this guide seems to put you in a much stronger position than robo twilight and phoenix openings. Is my build somehow unsafe or are pros just using bad builds? This feels a little like back when I was watching pros go for 2 gate robo expands in PvT when I knew 1 gate expands were perfectly safe and much stronger.
Wanted to comment that this build has helped me quite a bit in pvz even though i haven't gotten the timings down perfectly following the 5gate+robo infrastructure.
One thing I would like to mention is that due to the early charge you can start using warp prisms MUCH earlier with greater effectiveness compared to normal late game pvz. I've found myself getting a fast robo bay just for gravitic drive and being able to just warp zealots into their main while attacking their 4th.
Overall, seems pretty stable even as a launchpad to transition into stalker/colossus.
On November 13 2012 13:50 kcdc wrote: Just watched Parting vs Hyun in IPL Hyun Club. Parting went for robo twilight expand quite a few times, and every time, it seemed to put him way behind. Why on earth are phoenix openings and robo twilight openings the standard ways to take a third in PvZ?
Have people been struggling to hold their thirds with this build? For entering a macro game, the opening used in this guide seems to put you in a much stronger position than robo twilight and phoenix openings. Is my build somehow unsafe or are pros just using bad builds? This feels a little like back when I was watching pros go for 2 gate robo expands in PvT when I knew 1 gate expands were perfectly safe and much stronger.
they're trying to convince the zerg they're 2 basing hoping the zerg will significantly cut econ and tech to mass up roaches which puts them ahead in the later mid-game as zergs stuck with less efficient units.
On November 13 2012 13:50 kcdc wrote: Just watched Parting vs Hyun in IPL Hyun Club. Parting went for robo twilight expand quite a few times, and every time, it seemed to put him way behind. Why on earth are phoenix openings and robo twilight openings the standard ways to take a third in PvZ?
Have people been struggling to hold their thirds with this build? For entering a macro game, the opening used in this guide seems to put you in a much stronger position than robo twilight and phoenix openings. Is my build somehow unsafe or are pros just using bad builds? This feels a little like back when I was watching pros go for 2 gate robo expands in PvT when I knew 1 gate expands were perfectly safe and much stronger.
they're trying to convince the zerg they're 2 basing hoping the zerg will significantly cut econ and tech to mass up roaches which puts them ahead in the later mid-game as zergs stuck with less efficient units.
You think? I suppose robo twilight expand looks sort of like an immortal sentry all-in, but it seemed like Hyun had absolutely no trouble telling them apart. For example, building an observer is a big tell that you're not going for the all-in. And if Zerg scouts the twilight council, there's no question left at all.
Additionally, the response to the immortal sentry all-in doesn't put Zerg in that bad of shape to deal with robo twilight expand. Zerg will still get lair and drone up to about 60 at the proper timings. Then they flood some lings to try to take down some sentries as P leaves his base and/or force P to slow the push down for another warp cycle or two. Those lings are also pretty good against the robo twilight expand because, for a small investment, they often delay P's third base a bit. I suppose that if Zerg thinks P might all-in, he might delay his infestation pit somewhat. That seems like a minor victory considering how much P sacrifices in order to sell the all-in. The build waits for twilight, blink, +2 weapons, 2 extra gas, and a bunch more units before taking a third compared to the fastest safe thirds.
It seems to me that Parting just sees the opening as a standard safe macro play that puts him in good shape the rest of the way. But as I watched his games, I was thinking, "Wow, he has a razor-thin window to push with colossi before broods pop--if Hyun gets any spines, the push can't work. And if Hyun gets broods out, he'll win for sure because Parting's economy is way behind Hyun's."
On November 13 2012 14:19 CaptainHaz wrote: Wanted to comment that this build has helped me quite a bit in pvz even though i haven't gotten the timings down perfectly following the 5gate+robo infrastructure.
One thing I would like to mention is that due to the early charge you can start using warp prisms MUCH earlier with greater effectiveness compared to normal late game pvz. I've found myself getting a fast robo bay just for gravitic drive and being able to just warp zealots into their main while attacking their 4th.
Overall, seems pretty stable even as a launchpad to transition into stalker/colossus.
Would you mind uploading a replay of your build against the computer? I actually haven't yet optimized the build down to the supply count instead going by feel, so it would be helpful to analyze what happens in a more sterile, optimized setting. Moreover, it would help to see what others are doing with the concept since I've only done what makes sense to me and others might have improvements that I'm missing.
On November 13 2012 14:19 CaptainHaz wrote: Wanted to comment that this build has helped me quite a bit in pvz even though i haven't gotten the timings down perfectly following the 5gate+robo infrastructure.
One thing I would like to mention is that due to the early charge you can start using warp prisms MUCH earlier with greater effectiveness compared to normal late game pvz. I've found myself getting a fast robo bay just for gravitic drive and being able to just warp zealots into their main while attacking their 4th.
Overall, seems pretty stable even as a launchpad to transition into stalker/colossus.
Would you mind uploading a replay of your build against the computer? I actually haven't yet optimized the build down to the supply count instead going by feel, so it would be helpful to analyze what happens in a more sterile, optimized setting. Moreover, it would help to see what others are doing with the concept since I've only done what makes sense to me and others might have improvements that I'm missing.
When servers come back online I'll run a few games and post my variations. What I'm doing isn't amazingly refined, I just sort of see when I can afford tech asap while sticking mainly to zealot production.
Thanks again for this btw, I really hate passive third builds as toss and this seems to be a really nice way to take a third safely.
Ok this is officially the best build i have ever used. I'll post replays when i find some proper games (i'm rusty as hell so i'm playing pretty bad people), but in general, holy shit.
There's always an awkward moment when you go "waaait a second...where the fuck did the zerg army go???"
Thanks kcdc ♥ my pvz went from my best matchup to "yeah, i don't lose pvz. Ever"
Glad to hear it Teoita. I'm still awaiting the zealot revolution in PvZ. It's amazing how much more stuff you get when you focus on units that cost half as much (zealots vs stalkers).
Please do post replays. I'm looking forward to learning from others how to use the style better. Feel free to post less-than-great replays. My instincts in PvZ are pretty shitty, so I'm sure there's stuff for me to learn from bad-to-mediocre play.
Still haven't found a proper game, but this is the general idea of how i do this for now: http://drop.sc/276303
1) I actually do stronger 4gate +1 zealot pressure. The reason being for whatever reason it always works at my level (mid master eu)...beats the hell out of me. I just don't get how some people lose their third to 6 units (this guy was mid master wtf), but eh. I feel like if done correctly, that build is always doing enough damage until like high master.
2) I delayed my third a bit because i was so surprised at him losing the third, i thought he was hiding units or something. It definitely does get delayed with my opening (and the rocks on Ohana don't help), but i definitely overdid it in this game
3) I have a better idea of when to get upgrades; i just kinda go single forge and 2/2 lines up nicely for when i max out. Because of how well 4gate pressure does for me, pushing at 15 minutes is generally a good idea, but i figure i could attack faster with 2/1 if necessary.
I've also tried this after a horribly failed dt opening (i was tilting pretty bad) and like...i push into broodlords. Then the Zerg dies. http://drop.sc/276305 (really i need to fix my pvt, these zergs just don't have units)
The cool thing about this is that you can just start flinging a bunch of inexpensive armies at the zerg and just keep his army/deathball in check, when you think of it it just makes so much more sense than stalker/colossus.
I've been looking for good macro benchmarks for this build, and lately, I've been using 140 supply at 12 minutes as my goal. It's tough for me to hit 140, but I can consistently hit the low 130's. One thing I've noticed is that if you do hit 140 food at 12 minutes, you can very often push out and kill Zerg's fourth against passive infestor builds. At 130, the push works sometimes. At 120 supply, the push seems to be a donation.
I'm not sure what the upper limit on supply is. I'm pretty awful at using chronoboost, so I'm guessing that 140 is not nearly the ceiling. Is 150 supply at 12 minutes possible?
I hit a maxed timing with 2-2, storm and 13 gates at 14:40 yesterday. That was probably the best overall macro I've had with the build, although I'm sure the max can hit significantly faster.
The double forge zealot-immortal style is defintely becoming more popular in the pro scene. One thing I've noticed that I do diferently is I take my third early while pros seem to get a twilight council and a second forge before they take a third base. This might sound like it's a small flip in ordering, but it's actually a very substantial difference. I take my third at about 7:20 with only +1 weapons started, but the faster double forge build devotes many more resources to tech and infrastructure, and winds up taking the third base more than 2 minutes later than I do with a higher sentry count, several more gateways, and +2/+1 researching.
The pro build may be a safer third base--I'm not totally sure. Zerg can definitely force a cancel on my third by getting quick metabolic boost and massing lings at 7 minutes, but that seems to do enough damage to Zerg to put us even anyway. The pro build has more sentries which would seem to prevent the third from being canceled, but since there's so much spending on infrastructure, the army that takes the third winds up looking pretty pathetically small at the time the third is taken. On some maps, the third may not be automatically safe. Drops and tunneling claws may be particularly problematic given the reliance on forcefields to defend.
The more important question is which build order produces a more powerful pre-hive timing push. My build will max out faster, but the pro build hits with +3/+2 whereas I hit with +2/+2. My larger economy also allows me to begin mothership tech prior to and during the attack whereas the pros I've seen have devoted all their resources toward doing a maxed timing ASAP. The result is their push is more all-in.
So what's better--a 14:40 maxed push with +2/+2 and a fleet beacon starting or a 15:00 maxed all-in with +3/+2?
I pretty sure the less all-in version is better. You can do so much damages and still be in the game. Thats the best point of pre-BL timing. Its rare to win on a pre-BL timing nowadays, it happens only if the zerg fucks up his game.
I've been experimenting with cutting the 3 gate pressure in favor of simply pressuring with my first zealot and stalker. My thoughts:
Cons of the pressure:
In order to hit the 7:40 timing, you have to start your 2nd and 3rd gates before your pylon at 44 supply, which forces a slight probe cut--or at least less chrono on probes which is effectively the same thing.
You also have to suicide a pylon for the pressure.
Sometimes, Zerg attacks your third instead of defending against your pressure. This is annoying because he cancels your third and pylons being built there and you wind up supply-blocked with 1500 minerals. Meanwhile, he can reinforce to defend your push without taking damage equivalent to what his counter-attack inflicted. You can avoid this situation by simply skipping the pressure and warping at home.
Pros of the pressure:
Tends to discourage extremely greedy play, and often delays lair.
Sometimes forces over-reaction, leading to an easily defended slow roach all-in.
Delayed tech means slower mutas, slower infestors, slower broodlords. Broodlords seem to come after 15:00 with the pressure, but before 15:00 without the pressure. This is a big deal since my push hits shortly before 15:00.
Summary:
I'm not sure which is better. I get to focus more on perfect macro if I skip the pressure, and I'm able to more consistently hit 140+ supply at 12:00, and time my +2/+2 upgrades nice and early. On the one hand, the improved Protoss macro is valuable because you really need to be almost maxed for the push to work, but on the other hand, the broodlords really do seem to come out quicker if you skip the pressure. I think I'll continue experimenting with a more passive third base, but I'll try to find a new pressure timing to slow the greater spire. Perhaps I'll try a 10-minute push after seeing the infestation pit to freak Zerg out and maybe deny his fourth. This would force some roaches, and I don't think Zerg can go for a 10:30 hive if they spend gas on roaches. Roach production would make this push suicide, however, so observer vision on his army would be critical.
On a related subject, I've ironed out some finer details in the build. I'm now starting +1 weapons after my 2nd and 3rd gates and right before my first sentry. With good chronoboost, I'm able to time +1 armor to finish right as my twilight council completes which lets me start +2/+2 right away. +2/+2 winds up completing before I'm maxed which is earlier than I need it, but it feels good to have the weapons and armor upgrades synced up. I'd love to get +3/+3 for the maxed push, but I don't think it's possible if you want to hit before broodlords. Unless you want to all-in with the push, I think it's worth it to start +3/+3 before pushing so that it's done by the time you have to fight broodlords head-on.
Also, I'm now starting my templar archives before starting charge. This removes charge from any smaller pushes, but it lets me sync up storm and charge so that I have both for the start of my big push. It sacrifices small aggression for a more powerful main push. Storms are important for two reasons--you can leave a couple templar at home to shut down zergling counter-attacks, and they completely remove zerglings from the main fight which lets your zealots smash important stuff faster.
New twist I've been adding on this build--I'm now skipping/delaying blink, getting a 12:00 SG, and building 5 phoenixes with +1 air weapons. I've also been delaying the mothership with it. The phoenixes seem to make the attack much better because you can easily kill infestors that would otherwise run away, and Zerg can't morph broods behind spine crawler walls if they don't have something to deal with the phoenixes. It seems to really extend the "pre-hive" stage where Zerg is scrambling to stabilize on their late-game composition. The 'nixes also make the game way more fun.
On December 11 2012 15:01 kcdc wrote: New twist I've been adding on this build--I'm now skipping/delaying blink, getting a 12:00 SG, and building 5 phoenixes with +1 air weapons. I've also been delaying the mothership with it. The phoenixes seem to make the attack much better because you can easily kill infestors that would otherwise run away, and Zerg can't morph broods behind spine crawler walls if they don't have something to deal with the phoenixes. It seems to really extend the "pre-hive" stage where Zerg is scrambling to stabilize on their late-game composition. The 'nixes also make the game way more fun.
Seriously though, that addition to the build is very interesting, never seen 12 minute stargate before for anything other than a mothership.
I've been working on incorporating this style into my PvZ, which works off my adaption of Tyler's 2 gate expo, and it works really well. more zealot heavy compositions really do swing pvz back into decent territory, and double ups which i am now using in all PvZ games are really really useful. (i usually go +1 attack, add TC and another forge, then get ups two at a time and then shield ups).
The nice thing about incorporating this into my style is that i tend to have more sentries with more energy from the early game, so with more forcefields zealots are much more effective against roaches. I am thinking about cutting down further on my sentry numbers (i used to get about 9, have recently switched to around 6-7, and am thinking about cutting down to 4 if i can get away with it), and trying to take a fast third as soon as i have hallucinate to check what the zerg is doing. Also, i have been adding a second robo when i scout roach openings, so i can get immortals and warp prisms at the same time, tis hardcore.
On December 11 2012 15:01 kcdc wrote: New twist I've been adding on this build--I'm now skipping/delaying blink, getting a 12:00 SG, and building 5 phoenixes with +1 air weapons. I've also been delaying the mothership with it. The phoenixes seem to make the attack much better because you can easily kill infestors that would otherwise run away, and Zerg can't morph broods behind spine crawler walls if they don't have something to deal with the phoenixes. It seems to really extend the "pre-hive" stage where Zerg is scrambling to stabilize on their late-game composition. The 'nixes also make the game way more fun.
The play from both sides were a bit too sloppy to really judge the effectiveness of the additional phoenixes but I really like the concept! Will play around with this a bit!
On December 11 2012 15:01 kcdc wrote: New twist I've been adding on this build--I'm now skipping/delaying blink, getting a 12:00 SG, and building 5 phoenixes with +1 air weapons. I've also been delaying the mothership with it. The phoenixes seem to make the attack much better because you can easily kill infestors that would otherwise run away, and Zerg can't morph broods behind spine crawler walls if they don't have something to deal with the phoenixes. It seems to really extend the "pre-hive" stage where Zerg is scrambling to stabilize on their late-game composition. The 'nixes also make the game way more fun.
The play from both sides were a bit too sloppy to really judge the effectiveness of the additional phoenixes but I really like the concept! Will play around with this a bit!
The reason the phoenixes work is that you're constantly forcing chaos, preventing Zerg from getting to a point where they can afford to chain fungal your phoenixes to death. Sure, our macro slips in that replay, but the window from 13 minutes to the end of the game at 21 minutes is essentially one constant engagement across the map. Granted, we're not that good, but it's tough to produce a "clean" game in that environment.
Phoenixes are usually considered bad in late-game against Zerg because fungal growth shuts down the harass so effectively. But if you combine 5 phoenixes with a zealot/archon/immortal attack, Zerg has to be very careful choosing how they use their infestor energy. A cluster of phoenixes is a juicy target if Zerg is sitting back behind a spine wall stacking broodlords, but when you only have 10 fungals banked and there's a maxed ground army charging in at you, it's hard to justify blowing half your fungals on the 5 phoenixes. And if you do blow your fungals on neutralizing 5 phoenixes, you're screwed against the ground army.
Note that this works if Zerg has 10 fungals banked, but it doesn't work if they have 30 fungals banked. It really helps to be aggressive in the 12-15 minute window to limit the fungal bank before you attack. This forces roach production which means less infestors and air units, and it also forces Zerg to spend his fungals before your big push with storms and phoenixes. You don't want to throw units away of course. In my experience, if you hit 140+ supply at 12 minutes and you see a fourth base and a hive morphing, you can attack, but you need to be careful about your engagements.
Just can't stop winning games where the battle seems like i'm completely dead, because i have lost all my gas units, and he has some broods left, then i warp in 12 zealots and 4 stalkers and kill off all the broods. So much zerg rage in my games.
I'm still not opening FFE, but Double Forge + different comp + aggressive expanding is really, really strong.
I don't know if this is outside the realm of this build/discussion, but recently I've been having a lot of success with mixing in some colossi to a primarily chargelot/immortal/archon composition. I got the idea from Creator, who's been doing it a bunch recently. Off of a robo twilight expand I can usually hit with a maxed composition of 3-4 immortals, 2-3 colossi, 3-4 archons a hand full of stalkers and the rest chargelots around 15:00. I guess it's the same idea as the zealot/immortal/HT composition, but the colossi add some heavy AOE damage and force a larger commitment (and possible over commitment) to corruptors if scouted, which seems to strengthen the army over all. I don't think I've lost a game where I've been able to execute that timing. Do you think using HTs is better over all, or are both pretty strong?
On December 02 2012 04:29 kcdc wrote: So what's better--a 14:40 maxed push with +2/+2 and a fleet beacon starting or a 15:00 maxed all-in with +3/+2?
I would rather not deal with lategame PvZ, and the twilight + 2 forge before third style tends to make sure that it doesn't arrive. It's really rare that the push will fail -- it can actually have 3/3/1 when it hits, which is incredibly hard to deal with. At least for me, however, it is definitely harder to hold my third against a roach attack or something similar.