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On November 29 2012 02:46 JDub wrote: You mention in your build that getting an earlier baneling nest slows down ling speed, ovy drops, and ovy speed. However, in your build order you basically say get ovy drops + speed right after lair finishes. Because drops take so much longer to research than speed, would it be possible to get your ling speed 50 gas late, your ovy drops right on time, and your ovy speed 50 gas late, while going for that early baneling nest? This wouldn't actually delay your drop timing at all, since the ovy speed upgrade researches much more quickly than ovy drops.
I say this just b/c I worry about defending speedling all-ins w/out a baneling nest. I know you say you have to scout them, but depending on the map (can you have an ovy seeing their natural mineral line) and your opponents ability to deny scouting / fool you (e.g. transfer a bunch of drones to nat even though they are making lings), in some cases you just need to be able to react when you see the lings running out of their base.
The problem is your lair will start at like 5min, so the EARLIEST you can start bane nest is at 5:30 and that is too late for a speedling all-in I'm afraid :s
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On November 29 2012 02:43 Sapp wrote: Nice read but personaly I think that dropping in zvz is dumb. Overlords > drops, especialty while they don't need to be worry of being killed from the ground like in zvt or zvp...
The only thing that can kill the ovis are queens and spores. Is there something I've missed from your argument?
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On November 29 2012 03:08 ImVirus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 02:43 Sapp wrote: Nice read but personaly I think that dropping in zvz is dumb. Overlords > drops, especialty while they don't need to be worry of being killed from the ground like in zvt or zvp... The only thing that can kill the ovis are queens and spores. Is there something I've missed from your argument?
eee, what?
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Sounds like a fun build, but theres no way this is competitively viable.
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On November 29 2012 04:47 Sapp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 03:08 ImVirus wrote:On November 29 2012 02:43 Sapp wrote: Nice read but personaly I think that dropping in zvz is dumb. Overlords > drops, especialty while they don't need to be worry of being killed from the ground like in zvt or zvp... The only thing that can kill the ovis are queens and spores. Is there something I've missed from your argument? eee, what?
Nevermind ^^<3
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On November 28 2012 23:43 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +This build also relies on scouting, since you will get a late baneling nest you will be very killed by speedling allins (if you don't have roaches out). Roaches can't defend against a Speedling all in. You need a fast Baneling nest or you die to Speedling all ins 100% guaranteed. Other than that good writeup! seems fun and interesting, i probably learn this to use in a tournament game
Actually they can, but you would have to get a super early roach warren and sacrifice economy to do so. How do I know? I used to do it a long, long time ago. It's obviouisly bad today because if your opponent knows you went that fast roaches all he has to do is drone and if the roach player drones the other player can just ling all in and then win.
Obviously not good but it is possible ;P.
Also I dunno how I like this ling/bane drop as muta just seems like such a hard counter and yeah I don't personally like this build but I imagine it can be decent as long as the other zerg doesn't go muta.
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On November 28 2012 23:54 porygon361 wrote:For the wall-in part, you could use my guide to Zerg wall-ins. It might be helpful against ling all-ins and baneling-busts. A very well done writeup! I might just go try it myself
Added it in the guide! Thank you
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On November 29 2012 05:20 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 23:43 Mavvie wrote:This build also relies on scouting, since you will get a late baneling nest you will be very killed by speedling allins (if you don't have roaches out). Roaches can't defend against a Speedling all in. You need a fast Baneling nest or you die to Speedling all ins 100% guaranteed. Other than that good writeup! seems fun and interesting, i probably learn this to use in a tournament game Actually they can, but you would have to get a super early roach warren and sacrifice economy to do so. How do I know? I used to do it a long, long time ago. It's obviouisly bad today because if your opponent knows you went that fast roaches all he has to do is drone and if the roach player drones the other player can just ling all in and then win. Obviously not good but it is possible ;P. Also I dunno how I like this ling/bane drop as muta just seems like such a hard counter and yeah I don't personally like this build but I imagine it can be decent as long as the other zerg doesn't go muta.
If you go to the counter section I explain how to deal with muta! It will be annoying yes and will shut down FURTHER drops but the initial drop should still hit and do damage. Maybe even the one after that aswell! And even if mutas come out you have overlord speed to save ALL your ovis out on the map from the mutas
Yeah mutas is a good counter but I think it's not a problem! :D
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On November 29 2012 03:08 ImVirus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 02:43 Sapp wrote: Nice read but personaly I think that dropping in zvz is dumb. Overlords > drops, especialty while they don't need to be worry of being killed from the ground like in zvt or zvp... The only thing that can kill the ovis are queens and spores. Is there something I've missed from your argument?
He is saying that an opponent who spreads overlords well (which they have no reason not to do in ZvZ, for the reason he mentions) should see your drops coming a mile off and have plenty of time to react.
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On November 29 2012 05:20 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 23:43 Mavvie wrote:This build also relies on scouting, since you will get a late baneling nest you will be very killed by speedling allins (if you don't have roaches out). Roaches can't defend against a Speedling all in. You need a fast Baneling nest or you die to Speedling all ins 100% guaranteed. Other than that good writeup! seems fun and interesting, i probably learn this to use in a tournament game Actually they can, but you would have to get a super early roach warren and sacrifice economy to do so. How do I know? I used to do it a long, long time ago. It's obviouisly bad today because if your opponent knows you went that fast roaches all he has to do is drone and if the roach player drones the other player can just ling all in and then win. Obviously not good but it is possible ;P. Also I dunno how I like this ling/bane drop as muta just seems like such a hard counter and yeah I don't personally like this build but I imagine it can be decent as long as the other zerg doesn't go muta. Ok I get it now Was mistake, I don't speedling all in and I always get fast banes to deal with them anyway, so no experience with roaches. Just thought the general consensus was: use banes or die, especially the faster timings (14/14 ling/bane all in can snipe the hatch faster than you can kill the lings with roaches).
I'm pretty sure that roaches are bad against speedling all in, but it is definitely map dependent.
If you build roach warren at wall, I see it and then drone for free and am ahead. If you hide roach warren, you don't have the simcity to survive the speedling all in, so I outright win.
On some maps (read: Antiga, Daybreak, Entombed, TDA) I don't think you can ever survive a speedling all in when you open roaches, or if you do you'll still be behind in drones lol. Granted it's a fine risk to take, and roaches are okay against heavy bane timings, but meh.
I agree I don't like the build, but nothing wrong with knowing it and using it occasionally. It's great if you scout a roach warren or something.
@ImVirus the problem with baneling drops in general is that they never work against skilled opponents. A good player will see the overlord coming and pull drones, however the speed of banes on creep might make it work (yay ZvZ, only matchup where banes are faster than workers). We'll see. It's definitely a good build to know, and something that no one will have ever played against before, despite it being not completely retarded
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On November 29 2012 07:40 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 05:20 blade55555 wrote:On November 28 2012 23:43 Mavvie wrote:This build also relies on scouting, since you will get a late baneling nest you will be very killed by speedling allins (if you don't have roaches out). Roaches can't defend against a Speedling all in. You need a fast Baneling nest or you die to Speedling all ins 100% guaranteed. Other than that good writeup! seems fun and interesting, i probably learn this to use in a tournament game Actually they can, but you would have to get a super early roach warren and sacrifice economy to do so. How do I know? I used to do it a long, long time ago. It's obviouisly bad today because if your opponent knows you went that fast roaches all he has to do is drone and if the roach player drones the other player can just ling all in and then win. Obviously not good but it is possible ;P. Also I dunno how I like this ling/bane drop as muta just seems like such a hard counter and yeah I don't personally like this build but I imagine it can be decent as long as the other zerg doesn't go muta. Ok I get it now Was mistake, I don't speedling all in and I always get fast banes to deal with them anyway, so no experience with roaches. Just thought the general consensus was: use banes or die, especially the faster timings (14/14 ling/bane all in can snipe the hatch faster than you can kill the lings with roaches). I'm pretty sure that roaches are bad against speedling all in, but it is definitely map dependent. If you build roach warren at wall, I see it and then drone for free and am ahead. If you hide roach warren, you don't have the simcity to survive the speedling all in, so I outright win. On some maps (read: Antiga, Daybreak, Entombed, TDA) I don't think you can ever survive a speedling all in when you open roaches, or if you do you'll still be behind in drones lol. Granted it's a fine risk to take, and roaches are okay against heavy bane timings, but meh. I agree I don't like the build, but nothing wrong with knowing it and using it occasionally. It's great if you scout a roach warren or something. @ImVirus the problem with baneling drops in general is that they never work against skilled opponents. A good player will see the overlord coming and pull drones, however the speed of banes on creep might make it work (yay ZvZ, only matchup where banes are faster than workers). We'll see. It's definitely a good build to know, and something that no one will have ever played against before, despite it being not completely retarded
If you look at the BO I changed it up a bit so you can get an earlier bane nest ^^ So there's your fix! And even if he scouts the overlords with the initial drops you will multi pronged drop him while doing runbys you will STILL do dmg in so many ways.
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On November 29 2012 07:21 Chutoro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 03:08 ImVirus wrote:On November 29 2012 02:43 Sapp wrote: Nice read but personaly I think that dropping in zvz is dumb. Overlords > drops, especialty while they don't need to be worry of being killed from the ground like in zvt or zvp... The only thing that can kill the ovis are queens and spores. Is there something I've missed from your argument? He is saying that an opponent who spreads overlords well (which they have no reason not to do in ZvZ, for the reason he mentions) should see your drops coming a mile off and have plenty of time to react.
Ah. I see. Try to get into a spot where an ovi doesn't see the loadup, him seeing just lings moving out will make him pull his forces to the front! Seeing overlord speed is an indicator sure but I've played some games with it and you still end up ahead.
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I haven't used many drops in ZvZ, except for Infestors in the late game. Definitely sounds promising, thanks for the guide!
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