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I wrote this guide originally for a forum site I frequent/close with most of the posters. So my original "guide" was very unprofessional. It was a ZvT guide in general with my Hydralisk style dotted in at the end, but if you really want to read it I'll post it up here.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xnrfh39SNbE6NHEg_C2Nzz-_zLc3rwinjA9rjU1STZ8/edit
Time for the TL-appropriate/more in-depth version of this guide.
Introduction
Hi, I'm a high masters zerg player named BuildingS. It's nice to meet you. I've been in Masters since October of last year, so please don't yell patch zerg at me.
It's a common known fact that Hydralisks are one of the most unappreciated units in Starcraft II. Of course they're still viable in ZvZ and had their tiny stint of utility in ZvP, but no pro has ever dared to stylize it in ZvT. Sure, Stephano may have used it in some recent tournament, or there was that one guide where someone tried to popularize roach/hydra in ZvT, but none of these ideas ever took flight. People are very quick when it comes to turning down certain styles because "Oh, the pros say it doesn't work." or "Oh, it doesn't work in theory, why would I ever try it in practice?".
But, it DOES work and I will tell you how.
Replacing Infestors? But without my Infestors, how am I supposed to win?
+ Show Spoiler +Don't take the replacing Infestors part entirely to heart, but to a degree it is doable to win ZvT even into the late-game with minimal Infestor use. Remember how Destiny spoke of replacing banelings with infestors? This is the exact same concept, except we're replacing Infestors with Hydralisks.
In what ways does the Hydralisk stack up against the Infestor?
- There are certain timings that a Terran can hit right when Infestors come out. And even though the Infestor can help in holding off attacks, like this, sometimes it isn't enough to truly end the aggression. With the Hydralisk, you have a brute force unit that can help you fend off the coming push and not be useless for the follow-up that might soon be coming.
- The same idea as listed above but in a more aggressive light. Hydras have huge DPS. Enough so that the amount of damage it does is comparable and sometimes even better than the Infestor in certain situations. A proper Ling/Hydra/Bane army can easily destroy a push the same way a Ling/Infestor/Bane army can except the only difference is that you can continue your aggression even further. Destroy a third command center because you can now shoot up, or just continue to lay waste onto your opponents natural considering he hasn't taken his third yet. (Note that with your ability to shoot up, tanks on cliffs aren't as much of a problem in these attacks.)
- You can easily reset the medivac count over and over and over again. There have been many games that I've watched and played where the Zerg loses because the Terran keeps his medivacs alive or because the Zerg was too irresponsible to take out the medivacs or didn't have the energy left on his infestors to take out the medivacs.
- Drop play is easily shut down. This one's really simple.
- Pride. You can rub it in the Terran's face that you just beat him with Hydralisks and not Infestors.
Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +The build order is very very standard and looks the exact same as most gas-less openers.
9 OL 10 - Drone scout (or double drone scout if you're multitasking is enough, but one drone scout will do). This drone is your hero drone. His job is to scout, harass SCV's trying to build things, and steal gas. You want to keep up the gas steal for as long as you can. Many people like to nitpick the details like lost mining time and wasted money through cancels, but trust me, there is hardly any difference. 15 Hatch 17 Pool 17/18 OL @100% Pool 2x Queen 26 OL @100% double queens get two more queens. @6:00 get your third base @6:30 get 4 gases and 2 evolution chambers @100 gas get lair @100 gas get zergling speed @200 gas get +1 melee and +1 range attack @50 gas get a baneling nest. @100% Lair start hydralisk den.
Execution
+ Show Spoiler +This Hydralisk style is very effective because of how well counter-pushes work. I'm not talking about a ling run-by into the third/natural, I'm talking about pushing right after you kill his push. In a meta-game where creep spread is becoming more prevalent, I've decided to use every single aspect of it to my advantage. People talked down Hydralisks because of how slow they were, but now they aren't slow at all. Combining the strength of the counter push and the speed of the Hydra, you'd want your Terran opponent to attack you, right? Of course, but a lot of Terrans greed it out and don't do anything. So our objective is to force him to attack us.
Denying the third hardcore: Block his third, but not with burrowed lings, but with creep. Not creep spitting from an overlord, creep spawned from creep tumors. To do this, you send out the first queen that spawns from your natural and you move it straight to your opponent's third after you inject larvae with it.
Time your queen's arrival to the designated area with a drone so that the two arrive at the same time. Place down a hatchery and then cancel it so you can spawn creep tumors. Use the drone to scout afterwards. Then you keep spreading creep into his third and outwards to his potential fourth and just everywhere. Remember to keep your creep spread up at your natural and outward, too.
Now with creep spread out everywhere in his third and even his fourth, our terran friend is left with two options. To turtle up and play with the delayed third base, or to pump out units and try to two-base all in you. Either way, this is good for you.
Responses out of the Terran + Show Spoiler + A Turtling Terran
Just get up to four/five bases and get a standard late game comp. He hasn't attacked you, you have no reason to attack him. You have an army suitable for holding off drops and you have map control. Hydras are also cool because they can kill vikings so you don't have to waste late-game infestor energy on viking fungals or infested terrans.
The Two-base all in
Mass up ling/hydra/bane, crush the push, and kill him. EZ.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
Let me know your thoughts, criticisms, questions, etc. Happy laddering!
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Just wanted to point out before digging into the guide, your title says you're replacing hydralisks with infestors, instead of the other way ;O i bet many angry/confused/frustrated people will come
(some mod fix please? :D)
Thanks for this guide, this is exciting to hear in WoL
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OH MY GOD. I'm such an idiot. Mods, if you could help me out here, that'd be absolutely lovely <3
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I actually came here thinking that he was replacing infestors with hydras so I guess it's not that bad While I'm not a zerg player (I actually uninstalled the game) I really hope that people incorporate hydras instead of infestors. I hope this guide becomes viable and gains some recognition.
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This build must be the best counter to the popular 2-base hellion/marauder push?
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On December 17 2012 13:51 Krootie wrote: This build must be the best counter to the popular 2-base hellion/marauder push? Please tell me you're joking.
Lair tech doesn't come until way after a polt-style hellion/rauder push hits. You defend that with roach/bane/ling/queen and micro. It's still very strong though. But yeah this build is no different from a standard gas less 3 hatch, so hellion/rauder Defence is the same.
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On December 17 2012 13:47 iMrising wrote:I actually came here thinking that he was replacing infestors with hydras so I guess it's not that bad While I'm not a zerg player (I actually uninstalled the game) I really hope that people incorporate hydras instead of infestors. I hope this guide becomes viable and gains some recognition.
LOL me too. This just shows how undervalued Hydras are in general and how nearly all Zerg players have dismissed them, with the only exception of ZvZ.
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I just wanted to say that your idea of hatch-cancelling and creeping his 3rd with creep tumors is hilarious =P
Seems interesting, I'll check out the replays.
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Grammar nazi checking in: "People talked down Hydralisks because of how slow they were, but not they aren't slow at all."
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I've been in Masters since October of last year
LOL and you think you are ready to make changes to the game? please....
At the moment things are close to balanced in WOL, blizzard stated that any type of changes will be addressed on HOTS.
Your ideas are not bad but I do not consider them of high priority.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 17 2012 14:44 number01 wrote:LOL and you think you are ready to make changes to the game? please.... At the moment things are close to balanced in WOL, blizzard stated that any type of changes will be addressed on HOTS. Your ideas are not bad but I do not consider them of high priority.
Ready to make changes to the game? Who is trying to change the game? I'm trying to get exposure on an otherwise highly underrated style of play.
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On December 17 2012 14:17 RaptorJesus wrote: Grammar nazi checking in: "People talked down Hydralisks because of how slow they were, but not they aren't slow at all."
grammar? should be down played not talked down. and that last part.....
still thinking about someone talking down a hydralisk, get the negotiator the hydra is going to jump.
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On December 17 2012 14:44 number01 wrote:LOL and you think you are ready to make changes to the game? please.... At the moment things are close to balanced in WOL, blizzard stated that any type of changes will be addressed on HOTS. Your ideas are not bad but I do not consider them of high priority.
I think u completely misread the whole thing.
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On December 17 2012 15:50 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 14:44 number01 wrote:I've been in Masters since October of last year LOL and you think you are ready to make changes to the game? please.... At the moment things are close to balanced in WOL, blizzard stated that any type of changes will be addressed on HOTS. Your ideas are not bad but I do not consider them of high priority. I think u completely misread the whole thing.
I think he read up to that masters part, then assumed this thread was a suggestion thread. In the last sentence he pretends to have read said suggestion thread.
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A couple questions (love the style, would just like to know a few things/understand some choices):
Why +1 melee instead of carapace? It seems like carapace would have more utility, given you're using hydras as well. Is it in order to supplement the baneling aoe to replace fungal dps?
How many hydras should you make before transitioning? I know in ZvZ roach/hydra comps the right number seems to be in the low teens, but I'm not sure how that would translate to ZvT.
Would you ever consider adding in drops to supplement your counterattack potential, or is it just too much gas?
Second (and hopefully this is ok to add in), how do you see this transitioning to HotS? Obviously speed hydras will be much better, but do you get speed or range first versus terran? I guess I'd argue speed in order to catch drops and, well, run away but it's hard to know. Do you think that, given the medivacs new healing rate, hydras will be able to dps as effectively as infestors, especially versus medivac pushes?
Anyway, great guide, I look forward to trying it out!
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The thing that worries me, is the reasonable transitions you can be making without having armor upgrades going. Ultralisks will completely miss their timings in games where they'd be otherwise strong or even required. ( I'm thinking Antiga as a main contester of having to play Ultralisks. )
Broodlords will also be weaker. Is this worth the tradeoff? How do you make up for the lategame deficit?
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On December 17 2012 17:36 Keilkan wrote: The thing that worries me, is the reasonable transitions you can be making without having armor upgrades going. Ultralisks will completely miss their timings in games where they'd be otherwise strong or even required. ( I'm thinking Antiga as a main contester of having to play Ultralisks. )
Broodlords will also be weaker. Is this worth the tradeoff? How do you make up for the lategame deficit?
I don't think he is planning on maxing out on Zerg Missile attacks, just +1 I think. In WoL, a 200 army full of Hydras is terrible since if it gets killed it'll be too expensive to keep remaxing. I'd assume that after some Lair play, he starts to upgrade carapace.
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Question: what is your general tactical approach to engaging a typical slow pushing marine tank army, where the marines stim in, kill creep, and run back into tank range? With infestors you can obviously fungal, and with mutas you would threaten the tanks if they got too spread out... How does hydras contribute to this situation?
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That's what the Zerglings/Banelings are for I guess.
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Sounds really interesting! At work at the moment but ill definately check out the reps when i get home. Have you tried using nydus aswell or do u just want to keep him on 2 bases while teching to hive?
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How is this any different than my guide on hydras zvt? (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379289)
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It is nice to see a fellow Zerg discovering and appreciating the strengths of the hydralisk. I rarely use hydralisks in ZvT, only against mech, and only when I start making broodlords. I like the map control and harass capabilities of mutabling way too much to use hydras or infestors in the midgame.
However, I use them a lot more in ZvP (and obviously ZvZ). I am incredibly, ridiculously, terrible at using infestors. Once I try to transition into infestorling, or infestorbroodlord, I start losing the game regardless of the matchup. Instead, I much prefer the hydrabroodlord. It is actually incredibly strong, and is much easier to micro (actually there is no micro, you just split them). They basically act the same as infested terrans, but are even better since their dps is instantaneously available and their lifespan doesn't expire.
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On December 17 2012 19:00 agahamsorr0w wrote: How is this any different than my guide on hydras zvt? (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379289) Well.. he's got that cute hatch-cancel-creep thing.
+ Show Spoiler +
User was temp banned for this post.
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hi BuildingS,
Thanks for the guide. I have been following agahamsorrow's hydra midgame that he posted a little while ago. And in fact the two suggested styles are very different: you advocate delaying/provoking the Terran, sorrow advocated passive play with minimal hydras straight up to broods. I think therefore there must be plenty of play in Hydras!
I don't know how the hatch/creep idea works out if your opponent can anticipate it, but it looks fun so I'll try it (and besides I love crushing those pushes!). I've been having a bit of trouble with my third timing generally so I'm not great at ZvT at the moment, but in fact hydras have often kept me alive long enough to get ultras out, leading to a lot of Terran frustration, even on late 3 base play! (Still, I'm awful and the people I play in diamond are, but still I count it as a successful game choice). I am also awful with infestors, they're a bit like shopping trolleys that you cart around the map distributing temporary damage.
Keep up the good work, will enjoy the reps.
Stardroid Space
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On December 17 2012 19:00 agahamsorr0w wrote: How is this any different than my guide on hydras zvt? (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379289)
I'm in class right now and have yet to thoroughly read through his guide, but based on what I've skimmed through, his style is still reliant on Infestors and uses Hydras as a midgame buffer as he techs to infestor brood lord. IMO, using Hydras as a transition into a BL/infestor army is indeed a waste of money because if you want to go for that "ultimate Zerg composition", you can get there with Infestor play much easier and or in the same fashion. My build uses Hydras as a crutch in the army all game long and replaces Infestors, showing how winnable the match up is without them.
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On December 17 2012 21:15 Stardroid wrote: hi BuildingS,
Thanks for the guide. I have been following agahamsorrow's hydra midgame that he posted a little while ago. And in fact the two suggested styles are very different: you advocate delaying/provoking the Terran, sorrow advocated passive play with minimal hydras straight up to broods. I think therefore there must be plenty of play in Hydras!
I don't know how the hatch/creep idea works out if your opponent can anticipate it, but it looks fun so I'll try it (and besides I love crushing those pushes!). I've been having a bit of trouble with my third timing generally so I'm not great at ZvT at the moment, but in fact hydras have often kept me alive long enough to get ultras out, leading to a lot of Terran frustration, even on late 3 base play! (Still, I'm awful and the people I play in diamond are, but still I count it as a successful game choice). I am also awful with infestors, they're a bit like shopping trolleys that you cart around the map distributing temporary damage.
Keep up the good work, will enjoy the reps.
Stardroid Space
Aggressive play can also help in provoke and delaying the Terran, but my way allows for less of a toll on the economy. To be honest, I was very hesitant in writing this guide because I didn't want my ladder secrets and my own play style to be anticipated, but eventually even with said anticipation the style should be figured out.
There have been instances though where my queen gets caught before it can lay creep and I've still taken the game regardless.
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Cute play.
It bewilders me that you go to the effort of creeping out the natural 3rd, but don't scout the other possible locations at all. The reps i viewed you left the 3rd unscouted all game.
I personally think that hydras and infestors have a lot of features that compliment eachother. Especially if you're able to get behind the terran army with your lings, with the festor hydra coming from the front. VERY hard to micro against.
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On December 17 2012 21:47 DwarfTherapist wrote: Cute play.
It bewilders me that you go to the effort of creeping out the natural 3rd, but don't scout the other possible locations at all. The reps i viewed you left the 3rd unscouted all game.
I personally think that hydras and infestors have a lot of features that compliment eachother. Especially if you're able to get behind the terran army with your lings, with the festor hydra coming from the front. VERY hard to micro against.
You can get both, but to have decent Hydra count and Infestor count in the mid-game is very taxing on your gas seeing that you're only on three bases. That's why I opt for Infestors later if I do choose to get them
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On December 17 2012 18:23 NarAliya wrote: That's what the Zerglings/Banelings are for I guess.
With good marine spreads and focus firing, i dont see ling/bane beating a patient marine tank player, that is not either pressured by mutas or in danger of being fungaled... OP mentions resetting the medivac count, but to my experience, you can only do that with hydras after you crush his push... If you just move in with ling bane and hydras, hes gonna focus down the banes with his first siege volley, and the hydras with the second, while his medivacs just run away like the marines and then your left with lings vs marines medivacs and any tanks that are left... Doesnt seem like a fair fight... But maybe im approaching it wrong?
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It's all about positioning on the push. For example, when a Terran seiges the fourth base cliff position on Ohana, I angle all my speedlings from behind and keep my Hydras and banes in the front and sandwich. Positioning is key in this style
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Interesting guide, i do use Hydras instead of infestors in ZvP since i started playing SC2 (like 1,5 years ago), this guide is a must read but carefully, slowly because its very nice!
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I would trade out the melee upgrade for lings with the carapace upgrade for ground just so that the lings don't die in 2 shot to tanks and to aid in the defense of the Hydralisks.
I don't really agree with sending the queen at the Terran's third. It seems like you would just have that much of a harder time defending against hellion pressure with less queens to defend. You would also have fewer minerals from canceling your hatch again and again. It's not like Terrans grab all that fast of a third base anyway so I don't see any reason to make that high priority for the early game.
I suppose if my creep spread is amazing then I would feel pretty comfortable going for Hydralisks but considering how much more involved Terrans are at keeping down the creep spread with hellions and small packs of marines, I don't think a Masters level Terran would allow too much creep spread unless they were behind in which case you could win with almost anything, ceterus paribus.
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People need to realize that this is an inferior style of playing zerg in zvt but it is much easier and requires less control. (compared to muta play and infestor play). Generally you can get an edge in eco since you can drone up so fast. But if you spend it on hydras it will be lost because of how more cost efficient the terran units are compared to hydras. If you manage to catch the terran off his guard by a nice timing it would be great, but the longer you stay on hydras the bigger his advantage will be. Also the usual 200/200 terran push will kill you.
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as a terran, what hinders me from just killinbg the forward queen at my 3rd? also i wish you the best of luck defending any sort of blueflame push.
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On December 17 2012 21:22 eSuBuildings wrote: I was very hesitant in writing this guide because I didn't want my ladder secrets and my own play style to be anticipated
lol
Anyway, how DO you stall Marine/Tank with this? I've been thinking about it and Banelings/Zerglings don't seem to be enough. Wouldn't it be at least better to go +1 Carapace rather than +1 Ranged first to hold it off easier?
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Seems like @cheerio didn't watch the replays.
@alpenrahm blue flame is sort of the build that is strong against this, but proper walling with spines should keep you safe.
@NarAllya depends on when the push is coming
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Hahaha, that is a very vulgar guide... but I like it.
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I just tried it on ladder and it worked nicely. Didn't delay third as it was shakuras and he took the 12 o'clock base. But it still crushed his push so hard. And counter just killed him instantly with Hydras and a Zergling backup. Good fun.
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On December 17 2012 19:28 snexwang wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 19:00 agahamsorr0w wrote: How is this any different than my guide on hydras zvt? (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379289) Well.. he's got that cute hatch-cancel-creep thing. + Show Spoiler +User was temp banned for this post.
Just asking a question.
Anyways, I watched the reps and in two games on ohana, you crush a timing push because he didnt micro, which is pretty bad by him. This already puts you ahead since he doesnt get fast upgrades. Another one because the terran didnt make tanks and just made 6 rax at the same time and thought he could get away with it. On one of the games on daybreak he sent like 16 scvs to mine from his 3rd while it was clear he could not land his cc for about 2 minutes because of creep. This puts him pretty hard behind because he could have mined more than 1k extra minerals. Just because of this, you double his army value by the time you "faint" attack him. He also had a tech labbed factory for about 5 minutes but had only 2 tanks out. On another game on ohana, he gets supply blocked on his factory for 2, mb 3 minutes. thats 3-4 extra tanks.He has resources for them. More than 1k minerals and 500 gas. He also goes fast 3cc into biomech without early double eng bay. He doesnt split vs infestor and gets his whole army of 60+ marines get fungalled by just 1 fungal. At this point his eco is too fucked up because of the delay with creep (he could have taken out all of the tumors with 1 scan. Instead he scans and doesnt scan for another minute, delaying his 3rd even more).
So now on your side. I think you are playing very blind cause (correct me if im wrong i didnt check if you scouted all games) you don't scout anything from terran after you know its a fast expo. I think scouting after lair is done is a good choice because it could be either mech or biotank. The engagement style vs mech is very different from biotank. So just make 1 overseer to scout tech and upgrades. no reason not to. You don't expand as much as me, which makes me think this build is kind of an all in timing attack. It basically all comes down to you doing a timing attack vs either a terran that doesn't know how a 3 base marine tank all in works or defending a timing attack from a terran that can't micro and doesn't know how positioning works in starcraft. Also, you do make some infestors in some games.
The correct way to deal with this style is to sit on 3base, go mech or biotank and make tanks out of 3 factories while trying take a 4th. You simply can't break a good tankline with hydras and banelings. Just because of how good tanks are vs massive ammounts of hydras, I choose to tech to broodlords so that he cant just blind counter my strat by going mass tanks.
As some have mentioned, Hydras now are too expensive for what they do in big numbers to keep massing them. Their strenght doesn't grow exponentially like infestors or broodlords. They just deal good damage when in range and not getting killed.
Going hydras as a stepping stone to get bl out is not always better but grants you more map control to defend creeptumors and bases from drops instead of making mass static defense. And you will need much fewer infestors to defend (3 untill bl are out because you shouldn't have trouble saving energy with hydras)
Don't think of me as a bad guy, I'm just trying to give some tips. I put your guide on my guide since it's the same unit composition but different style.
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I think mixing in hydras with ling/bane makes the whole army so much slower. Have you tried roach/hydra with some bane suppot instead, they would share missile attack too and roaches tank siege shots better
EDIT: Also this is not even the most important part. The thing is when you go muta, the terran really has no reason to push before being maxed because you delayed your hive tech, which is the only clock you can put on Terran. If you go hydras, it's the same he can just max out and get a nice number of tanks off 3facts. The difference between muta and hydra is that you can gain time with muta harass. Unless you get drops, this strat will never work against a terran that knows what he's doing in that case : turtling and pushing at max before hive.
The thing with ling infestors is that you save all gas for infestors, which are good late game units, upgrades, and getting BL or ultra eventually. They line up for a good late game. This strat might have some midgame potential, good for cleaning up medivacs and stuff, but unless you get drops or nydus, you're not really gonna break a 3 bases terran with tanks and simcity and as long as t has 3 bases and can max out, he wins
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http://drop.sc/285269
This is just for fun. It's a hydra counter after exchanging units (and being down a base), with epic chat at the end. It ain't great but it's something for a giggle. I LOVE when players react like this.
Stardroid Space
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Sounds intriguing. I'll have to try it some time
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I'm no high level zerg player by any means but I really like the ideas behind this build, especially the creep tumours denying the third I think that's awesome, but would you consider using nydus worms to snipe expansions and production facilities as well with hydras and lings?
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I've considered drop play, but not Nydus. I might try it.
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Back when I used to play Zerg, I had some success in ZvT with quick Hydras. I don't remember the build order I used but it was obviously very reliant on having a lot of Queens for quick creep spread. I always went for a faster +1 Carapace since it benefits both Lings and Hydras. Overlord speed is also a priority since you won't always be able to stop a Terran from killing your tumors, and you need to be able to make a creep highway to maintain your mobility, but don't want to constantly lose slow Overlords and get supply blocked.
I almost always decimated their Hellion + Banshee harass and then got up on 4 bases while amping up the aggression and going to Muta/Bling/Ling with Hydra support.
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On December 17 2012 18:06 NarAliya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 17:36 Keilkan wrote: The thing that worries me, is the reasonable transitions you can be making without having armor upgrades going. Ultralisks will completely miss their timings in games where they'd be otherwise strong or even required. ( I'm thinking Antiga as a main contester of having to play Ultralisks. )
Broodlords will also be weaker. Is this worth the tradeoff? How do you make up for the lategame deficit? I don't think he is planning on maxing out on Zerg Missile attacks, just +1 I think. In WoL, a 200 army full of Hydras is terrible since if it gets killed it'll be too expensive to keep remaxing. I'd assume that after some Lair play, he starts to upgrade carapace. Mate, where in Nigeria do you live?
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On December 19 2012 03:37 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 18:06 NarAliya wrote:On December 17 2012 17:36 Keilkan wrote: The thing that worries me, is the reasonable transitions you can be making without having armor upgrades going. Ultralisks will completely miss their timings in games where they'd be otherwise strong or even required. ( I'm thinking Antiga as a main contester of having to play Ultralisks. )
Broodlords will also be weaker. Is this worth the tradeoff? How do you make up for the lategame deficit? I don't think he is planning on maxing out on Zerg Missile attacks, just +1 I think. In WoL, a 200 army full of Hydras is terrible since if it gets killed it'll be too expensive to keep remaxing. I'd assume that after some Lair play, he starts to upgrade carapace. Mate, where in Nigeria do you live?
When I'm in Nigeria I live in Magodo (Lagos). However I was born in England. What about you?
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I watched the game on twitch (linked in your reddit comments), pretty interesting style. However I feel like it's really, really creep dependent - your creep spread is pretty outstanding. To me, your style seems to be more an emphasis on how important/awesome creep is instead of how good hydras are. In that particular game it just seemed like you outplayed your opponent.
I'm still not convinced that the hydras you use in the midgame are better for actual army engagements than say, pure ling/bane into fast ultra and then adding infestors later. Upgrades also synergize very well with this style. Have you tried that style combined with your solid mechanics? The main benefits of hydra in your style seem to be that they can snipe dropships/floating buildings and they are in general better vs drop play, but I'm not sure that's offset by their other drawbacks.
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You'd have to watch the other replays, but I get what you mean. This is a style that's really hard to pull off with bad creep spread and poor mechanics,
I've used all styles (against all compositions) from standard Melee T3 and Air T3 to mass Roaches, etc. Sure, there are other much better styles to use, but I feel that Hydras fill in the gaps that other styles have trouble fulfilling while still being good at killing your opponent.
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I understand that you've won these games, and I say kudos to you for that, and having read it, I think its an interesting take.
But unless the Terran is bad, or goes Marine/Tank, I don't understand where you're going to get more guaranteed damage onto his army. Banes can be focused by tanks, and hydras, as good as they are, are not good units to be fighting out on the map with in general; too slow in retreat, and too weak (squishy) to engage most armies. Counter-pushing is good, unless they've been macroing behind their push to begin with, hold a defensive position, or have done both, in which case you lose a lot of units for free. I feel like the queen play at the third is fun, but not optimal nevertheless. That feels like a lot of minerals and mining time gone just so you can creep the third, and you can't guarantee that your queen won't get attacked either on the way over or at the 3rd location itself. I do like the idea of starting creep near their base though, and I think I shall try that going forward, but I think that this extra queen pushing creep out from your base would be a better utilization of that energy if you're going to be wanting to be on the map with hydras.
I would like to repeat what @Defenestrator is commenting on, and that it seems like you're simply emphasizing the importance of amazing creep spread. I see value in Hydras for defense and early-mid game having units that can actually shoot (as opposed to infestors), but I don't see them *gaining* value over time. Which is the primary issue. Zerglings are exceptionally fast and once you get adrenal w/ 3/3, they *tear* through stuff-even 3/3 marines; these aspects allow for significant variability in their utilization throughout the game. I feel like the investment (upgrades; delay of carapace or whatever/ tech structures/ etc.) into what will end up being a relatively small amount of hydras produced (compared to zerglings/banelings) is just not worthwhile in the longer scheme of the game. I guess that's a lot of text to say the simple concept that I do not believe that Hydras are cost efficient or cost effective unless you're using them for a specific, oriented purpose that is determined by reacting to the enemy, especially in ZvT.
If you were to forward the idea that hydras work excellently as a way to defend a certain push in a certain matchup or something, that would be one thing. But I don't believe that's what you have done, nor what you intentioned.
Personal note, unrelated to actual content: + Show Spoiler +On a personal note, I think the "I don't want to let my ladder secrets out" bit is kind of retarded. Honestly, you shouldn't be playing gimmicky, tricksy shit in order to get wins. Not relying on "secrets" to get wins. I respect that you are in masters, and that you are better than I, but I've had friends cheese into masters by using "tricks" and they couldn't play out an actual game properly; not saying that you are similar with this inability, just that we should be sticking to established norms and working to improve our mechanics, even in masters, because those will win more games.
I value that you brought this up, and I think it could spark some interesting discussion around the idea of earlier hydras for defensive purposes in handling early-ish timings. I would be very much interested in seeing someone much more qualified than either of us either play it or comment on it before I say that it is good. I am completely willing to, please note. I think you're a ballsy dude for posting it, and I respect not only that, but also that you've found a way to play that is outside the norm and that you enjoy playing.
I'm not going to lie, I've really been wanting to type something and haven't had anything to type recently, so I apologize for my long-windedness. It's an unfortunate quality of mine D:
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I understand what you are saying when it comes to gimmicks and not relying on them to win. I've played out all the styles beforehand. I know how to play into Ling/Infestor/Broodlord or Ling/Bane/Ultra/etc.
This style isn't a one-trick pony. I've used it repeat on opponents before and have beaten them convincingly.
Thank you for the input, though.
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I didn't intend to imply that you couldn't, and I apologize if that's how it came off-I was more intending that as a general statement on my soapbox, as it related to that statement.
I think when I have some practice I can do without worrying about worrying so much on making sure my mechanics are solid or defending a cheese, I'm going to have a poke both at this and at the drop style that Tang posted about the other day. Interesting content. I'd like to say again that I think it's really good to have people putting new content out there.
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Honestly, I don't know why it hasn't been explored more. It's like people saw they were awful at launch and just stayed away from them forever.
I see Ling/Hydra/Baneling (later into whatever late game tech of your choosing) is a style similar to Ling/Bane/Mutalisk. It's very skill oriented and relies a lot on mechanics such as creep spread micro to stay as effective as Ling/Infestor would be. Granted, I've only done this style for about a month (IMO, it's the only style of ZvT I play anymore, I'm that dedicated) but I feel like I can go far with it.
And to counter your point on the Queen moving out and how it's a "wasted investment", you can always pull attention away with zerglings and keep him distracted. And one queen's creep spread is enough as long as you are consistent and on top of it at all times. So having a queen from his third and having a queen at your natural spreading creep makes for some sick stuff. It really isn't a mineral sink too, because let's be honest here. At this point you are on two fully saturated bases of drones mining minerals and you're Zerg. You'll be just fine.
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On December 19 2012 12:44 eSuBuildings wrote: And to counter your point on the Queen moving out and how it's a "wasted investment", you can always pull attention away with zerglings and keep him distracted. And one queen's creep spread is enough as long as you are consistent and on top of it at all times. So having a queen from his third and having a queen at your natural spreading creep makes for some sick stuff. It really isn't a mineral sink too, because let's be honest here. At this point you are on two fully saturated bases of drones mining minerals and you're Zerg. You'll be just fine. Yeah your queen investment is minimal; it's like a risk/reward thing where there's very little risk but very large reward. In a lot of your games he wastes at least 3 scans = 900 minerals on killing creep at the 3rd, and that's excluding lost mining time =P
I also like how you gas-steal to take attention away from your queen moving cross-map.
It's a pretty interesting style from watching the reps; I'll see if I can try it out, but I'm gonna really have to focus on my creep spread =P I am also of the opinion though that hydras are nowhere near as useless as everyone makes them out to be.
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I wonder if anyone else has any replays to share after trying this style? Or BuildingS, do you have any more? I'm gobbling them up like a hungry hydra hippo.
Stardroid Space
P.S can I add to the chap who said you can't break seige lines with hydras: 1) you can, if it's not massive (i.e.. lategame) and you split your units to attack from two points 2) by the time a huge tank spread across natural/third and into the map might occur, you should be producing hive tech units (ultras are quicker and will deny a slow push if you're patient). 3) as a Zerg you never engage a seiged Terran, right? It's only something you do to end the game!
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Two more replays.
http://drop.sc/285950 - Cloud Kingdom - This shows the strength of on-point creep spread and how you only really need one queen per side to get good enough coverage.
http://drop.sc/285952 - Entombed Valley - Close positions, so I roach all inned and transitioned into Hydralisks because why not? A few mistakes, like moving too far into his base with Hydras off creep, but oh well. It was a won game anyway because Zerg OP.
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:D Thanks BuildingS!!!!!!
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So for the most part i only browse TL, but i feel like i need to thank you for this topic. After taking a break for a while i came back with the plan of cutting back infestor use as much as possible in prep for HOTS. Only silver but having much success against terrans , especially with most terrans going hellion/banshee openings Posted some replays to show it at work . (needless to say not the best playing but getting there ) http://drop.sc/289221 http://drop.sc/289219 http://drop.sc/289217 http://drop.sc/289216 http://drop.sc/289218 - probably my favourite just because the rage at the end but he played pretty bad http://drop.sc/289220 -loss vs a platinum but had fun getting steam rolled
once again thanks buildings for the suggestion and replays
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Interesting! More crazy styles from Zergs please
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I would be interested to see the comparison in damage between infested terrans and hydralisks. My main objection to hydras in tvz is that infestors, if they land a good fungal, are likely to do more damage even in a prolonged fight, and in the absence of good fungals lobs of infested terrans has superior dps and performs a very similar role. I can see the value in hydralisks to help hold some different timing attacks from terran. Hydralisks are cheaper on gas, so I could buy the argument that hydras can be used in place of infestors if you want faster teching, but I think infestors just make a lot more sense in a late game army then hydralisks; namely because I don't believe that a hydralisk provides greater dps or utility than an infestor. In the late game a zerg will often have a host of corrupters to support their broodlords, which serves to reset terrans viking and medivac count probably more effectively.
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Mothergoose: as it was previously explained the goal behind Hydras is to have a fully fighting midgame army. Yes infestors do a lot of damage but they are essentially non-combat units, meaning that when you've done your damage - say, in fighting off an initial push with your initial amount of fungals, or in pushing a third - they have to retreat. Hydras on the other hand push into positions and stay there even when most of the lings are dead. You'll also find that while terran can reinforce a position after fungals, for the same reason, he can keep up with the defence against infestors but can't pool units into a position taken by hydras. Additionally they can kill off CCs because they shoot air - infestors won't have the energy for ITs to do the same job and would be retreating anyway (you don't want to be in terrans base without energy on your infestors).
I could go on but there you go. Counterattacks, earlier to come out (beats timings based on infestor pop time) etc.etc. Overall they're a more aggressive unit choice and can punish greedy terrans comprehensively, whereas infestors are almost always a passive option that declares the intention for an early lategame situation. Hydras say 'do you have enough stuff' - and if terran has, it's levelled the game at a stable army-based midgame rather than a tech based transitional one.
Stardroid Space
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If you confine the argument to mid game pushes, then there are other reasons that hydras seem to make less sense.
Hydras do not reduce the kiting potential of marines. Against a strong marine force, or a marine hellion force, it stands to reason that infestors are going to be more cost effective.
Infested terrans are a good way to soften a seige line. Hydras do not provide this same kind of utility.
Hydra ling would do very well against a marine maurader force that has a significant number of marauders, if zerg can flank and engage on creep. Against a marine tank force or anything with blue flame hellions, it seems like infestors would be more cost effective.
When it comes to counter pushing, I don't think hydralisks are strictly necessary. Every game is different of course so there very well may be times that hydras are more effective. Speaking in general though, if a terran commits heavily and aggressively to mid game pressure (say, anything between 10-13 minutes), then one of two things are likely to be true.
1. Terran does not have a third base. Zerg will have a superior economy, and stopping the mid game push gives zerg a free ticket to hive tech.
2. Terran does not have all the production facilities they need for a proper late game. Depending on the push, this could mean not enough starports, slower upgrades, or fewer factories or barracks. It could also mean late core upgrades like stem or combat shields. In this case, zerg has superior upgrades and superior production, and can be the aggressor.
In either case, it is often advantageous for zerg to put pressure back on terran. Hydralisk do allow zerg to snipe command centers instead of just making them lift of, but the effect on the game is nearly identical regardless. Terran does not need scvs going into the late game, terran needs mineral patches. If zerg can deny terran from mining from a third base than zerg is in a very dominant position. Situations in different games are always going to be unique, but if a terran committed to a mid game push and failed then their tank count is likely very low, their marine count is likewise not very high, if terran has a third base it can usually just be overun with one round of injects of lings or roaches and one or two well placed fungals. Lings and infestors are much quicker off creep than hydras; another advantage the infestor ling composition offers is the ability to almost immediately put on counter pressure, and also the ability to retreat.
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mothergoose: thanks for your
The thing is, putting on counter pressure with infestors or hydras is a good idea and it's hard to see how the composition feels until yhou try it (or watch the replays from BuildingS). The reason why hydras, I believe, are better, is that they can't be managed. a good spread will mitigate fungals, good walling and spreading mitigates ling/bane. Nothing really stops hydras other than superior forces (the most important point), so zerg's attack is always alive if there's an attack to be had. They even look a bit like bunnies so think of them as everready bunnies. Shove them right up there (son). If there's a midgame push from terran, I agree, either the third or the army will be delayed. Choosing hydras means having the army advantage, and if it's heavy pressure, as you say, then if you killed the push you'll kill the guy, as simple as that. If there's a third without army you simply sit in the third and that's game (a round of lings won't do that even if they delay mining by overwhelming the area, you'll need to get to hive or keep trying to exchange). If there's a less strong push then that's units for free (with infestors you're often using energy you would rather be saving). You really need to try it out to get it. The 'almost immediate' as you put it, ability for infestor ling to put on counter pressure is really 'immediate' in the case of hydras. Why you'd want to retreat I don't know.
Seige lines - if you have infestors you'll positively need to soften them up when you can because when you 'go in' you're put on a timer with your lings for whatever fungals/terrans you'll throw to use your energy, so it all helps. I've always thought of that style as throwing a blanket on a fire. If you're using hydras against marine/tank/medivac you'll be killing things so quickly you don't need to soften things up, just to make sure to engage from a good position, that's becausee the most important thing is not throwing your units into well defended positions. It's more like throwing a bucket of water on a fire.
Hope that makes sense, Stardroid Space
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This is really weird i've been losing to roach hydra recently T.T. Roaches just stop any kind of early aggression and if i go greedy roach hydra push will do tons of dmg and Z is still ahead
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On January 02 2013 09:13 Silencioseu wrote: This is really weird i've been losing to roach hydra recently T.T. Roaches just stop any kind of early aggression and if i go greedy roach hydra push will do tons of dmg and Z is still ahead
At what level? Wont roach hydra leave the zerg without any tech? Dont you just switch to tanks at the first sign of this? Replay? Im asking cause I really like the mid game hydras but I thought throwing roaches in the mix would be horrible.
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Thank you for posting. Great build. The only think what I am doing instead of building the 3rd Hatch at the T 3rd base, I build two crawlers to help me defend against hellions and other pushes. My micro is not that good yet......
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On December 17 2012 13:12 eSuBuildings wrote: Replacing Infestors? But without my Infestors, how am I supposed to win? Made me giggle.
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On January 03 2013 19:42 Grubbegrabbn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 09:13 Silencioseu wrote: This is really weird i've been losing to roach hydra recently T.T. Roaches just stop any kind of early aggression and if i go greedy roach hydra push will do tons of dmg and Z is still ahead At what level? Wont roach hydra leave the zerg without any tech? Dont you just switch to tanks at the first sign of this? Replay? Im asking cause I really like the mid game hydras but I thought throwing roaches in the mix would be horrible.
The standard tvz meta game: 3 cc, helion shee, into double ups (either bio or mech) perfected by MKP, Is designed for ling infester, or ling muta. ----> late game.
A speed roach timing, +1/1 Roach, or Roach Hydra timing can be very effective during this time. (8-11 min) Before Terran is ramping up for a 3 base timing.
Yes mass tanks stops this. As well as pure bio, 2 cc timings.
However, helion into shee into tanks does not allow you to have enough tanks to stop the attack, if its really all in, and not just a timing with droning behind it
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Hydras can be useful at some timings and you CAN win with them but they're at best slightly better than infestors in a few specific situations, 8/10 times you're better off with infestors. In zvt they get crushed by tanks worse than roaches AND they're vulnerable to hellions, also they simply melt to stim bio.
I can see them being useful in mid game (nothing new here), but hydras are next to useless late game and don't support hive armies very well compared to infestors. To the point of terran timings hitting when infestors arrive, infestors will always be better at dealing with timings if they have upgrade and roach/ling is simply more cost effective than hydras for defense.
Zerg only has a few combat units and they're all very straightforward/easy to use so obviously pros have tried to make hydras work at some point or another in the 2+ years the game has been out but there's a reason no one uses them outside of timing attacks and ZvZ. Terran has a much higher skill ceiling than Z, on master NA you can win against T doing any number of things such as mass banes, pure ling/bling, roach/bling timing, muta/ling/bane, ultra/infestor etc etc, the real test is going against higher GM terrans and seeing if it works there.
edit: It's also worth noting that while they work for timings, the gas would probably be better spent on banes/roaches anyway.
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