Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen of Team Liquid! I'd like to welcome you to a guide on an alternative style of ZvP called Drop-Style.
I've had a lot of fun writing guides since the release of SC2, focusing on a wide-range of styles. But of all the styles and all the guides, this one is easily the one that I'm most excited to release. I actually feel contained using only words to describe how excited I am about this, I need balloons and trumpets and shit. It may sound extremely nerdy, but I'm passionately invested in this style of play - it has been my pet project for over two years and I absolutely love playing and teaching it.
The basic concept behind Drop-Style is a multi-pronged Zergling/Baneling drop at 8:15 that allows you to be the first aggressor against Protoss who Nexus-First, FFE, or 1-Gate Expand. I will freely admit that years ago when I first devised this build, it was intended to be an all-in and I used to go for the jugular by streaming Lings and Banelings relentlessly. But as I practiced more, I gradually refined the timings, and found that the initial investment of the drop only delays macro by about 2 minutes. That means you can still max out with roaches by 13 minutes! It can absolutely be a stepping-stone into the midgame, because you can use that aggression, scouting information, and map-control to transition in a number of ways (Mutalisks, Hydralisk Doom-Drops, Roach Max-Outs).
Now to the supporters and upholders of true and genuine macro-Zerg: Do not come at me with pitch-forks and torches. I'm not here to step on your toes. I'm not arguing that Drop-Style is better than pure macro styles, or that it should replace 3-Hatch openings. But I think we can agree that it has value for Zerg players, and I encourage readers to keep an open mind and incorporate this style and here's why. . .
It's fun. It's my favourite style of play, and I know you will enjoy it too. It will put a smile on your face and most of us could use that.
It's challenging. This style will not be easy for new players, and I expect even some highly skilled players will struggle a bit at first. Multi-tasking and decision-making are constantly taxed, because you're always out on the map. There is no "sitting time" where APM isn't important, even in the early stages you must be active to deny scouting while optimizing your economy. You can't focus only on the execution of your drop and transition, you have to continue droning and injecting - something I seem to forget in the tutorial replays -_-
It's effective. We're not exactly fitting the mould of standard ZvP, but that's not always a bad thing! Well-timed builds can be very effective even if they are unusual. I'm sure some will be quick to judge this as a gimmicky or cheesy strategy, and we could argue all day about whether that's true without getting anywhere. Let's skip that argument, because whether drop-style is a viable long-term build or simply an unorthodox all-in, you should try it.
It's adaptable. I've had a lot of fun experimenting with variations and transitions (can't wait for Swarm Hosts), but I've only scratched the surface in terms of potential. You guys all play Zerg - or at least you should! - and you all have unique takes on the game. I think some of you will have brilliant ideas on how to adapt and transition in response to what your opponent does, and I really hope that those who don't often use aggressive openings will mix it up and try it anyway. It is natural to be a little hesitant about using low-economy tech builds, but you'll find that the early Overlord drop presents unique opportunities and advantages. So let's find out how to make the best use of them. I'll tell you what I already know, but I need to hear about what you find out too.
The best way to learn this style and get a feel for the variations and transitions is to watch the following tutorial videos. They focus on the timings of the first drop, denying scouting, and transitioning, but each video has general, helpful tips and tricks that apply to any style.
The core build order up can stay the same up until 40 supply regardless of what your opponent does (assuming he doesn't go early 2-Gate Zealot). I've included screenshots for all you visual learners, though all of this is covered in more detail in the tutorial videos.
9 Overlord 15 Gas 14 Pool 16 Overlord 16 Queen/Speed (First 100 Gas) 18-20 Zerglings (Do not remove Drones from Geyser
20-21 Drone 21 Expansion Hatchery (~3:50) 20 Lair (~4:15)
20-24 Drones (Fully Saturate Main + 1 Drone for Second Geyser) 24 Second Geyser 23 Overlord 23-26 Drones rallied into Second Geyser (use first inject). You should have 16 Drones mining Minerals 2/per patch with both Geysers filled by 5:15. Once you do, rally to the expansion minerals.
26-29 Drones rallied to expansion 29 Queen (Expansion) 31 Overlord Drop (~5:50 when Lair is done)
31-34 Drones (Optional Zerglings if he's pushing out with 1 Zealot 1 Stalker) 34 Overlord (Overlord Speed queued up at expansion so it starts when Queen finishes) 34-40 Drones 40 Baneling Nest (Replace Drone)
There are endless variations available for the first drop, you can do anywhere from 16-30 Zerglings and 4-12 Banelings. I've provided a few options an overview to the style. "Light" pressure is 4 Banelings and 16 Speedlings (3 Overlords total) while "Heavy" pressure is 4 Banelings and 24 Speedlings (4 Overlords total). Believe me when I say there are "Super-Heavy" variations as well, but the focus of this guide is not to win with the first drop. Keep in mind these options can be mixed and matched, and adjusted to suit your personal play style.
To execute "Light" pressure for the earliest max-out transition, remove one Drone from each Geyser after Overlord drop. This way you can start an earlier third and you won't bank gas (remember to fill it back up once you saturate your expansion, though!). Continue droning to 44, then produce two Overlords.
Go from 44-52 with Speedlings (16 Zerglings, 2 Overlords full). Immediately start your third base (7:45).
Morph 4 Banelings and execute the multi-pronged drop at 8:15.
As you're dropping, your goal is to fully saturate your natural and third base so keep droning and producing Overlords.
Start your Roach Warren + Evolution Chamber, and get up to 4 Gas.
Get Roach +1/Speed with a total of 4-Geysers and 4-Hatcheries (Should sound very much like the Stephano-Style Roach Max).
By 12:45-13:00 you should be maxed with Roaches, +1, Speed, and with your Overlord upgrades ready to put on more multi-pronged aggression.
Heavy pressure is 3 Overlords full of Speedlings instead of two. Cut Drones at 40 Supply and produce 1 Overlord. Go from 40-52 with Zerglings to do execute "heavy" drop pressure (24 Zerglings, 3 Overlords full). Execute the multi-pronged drop at 8:15:
As you drop, you can continue droning, adding 2 Geysers, and building a Spire:
Make sure you have supply when the Spire finishes, and start the +1 Air Attack (approx. 9:30). You should be fully saturated at your main/natural before producing any Mutalisks:
Once you've created 6-10 Mutalisks, start your third and start droning (if you're on top of your macro/multitasking, you can start the third before the Mutalisks:
As you pressure with Mutalisks, continue droning and start a Roach Warren + Evolution Chamber:
Once you've fully saturated the third base, start Roaches and Upgrades:
Continue producing Roaches/Overlords until 200/200 - Then start the mayhem multipronged Roach pushes and drops. Make sure you have a 4th Hatchery:
Execute the "Light Pressure" drop - See Transition 1, and replay against ESCDaisy.
Drone to Full-Saturation at expansion then start third hatchery and Hydralisk Den. While Hydra Den builds, produce 6-8 Drones for your third and a couple of Overlords.
As the Den finishes, produce 8 Hydralisks (Optional to produce more if you want to all-in, but you'll need 3-4 Geysers if so.)
Produce as many Zerglings/Hydras as you like (Lots if he's attacking you or if you're doing a doom drop or creep highway timing).
Start a Roach Warren and Evolution chamber, and drone your third to full mineral saturation.
Once you reach 60-66 Drones, make sure you have a 4th or a macro hatch, make sure that you have a 4th or a macro hatch and that you're mining from 4-5 Geysers before starting Roach production.
You only need your first Overlord to scout Nexus-first or Forge FE to choose Drop-Style, and it works on any map. The timing of the drop (approx. 8:15) almost guarantees you'll be the first aggressor - even if he goes for a super-early Gateway all-in, he'll likely just be pushing as you drop his main/expansion. You don't need to scout his Gateway count or tech choice before the first drop.
As you drop, it's important to figure out your opponent's tech choice, with planned responses to each possibility. For example, you will always start droning at 52 with the goal of transitioning into some form of tech, but you may cut your droning or teching short if he's preparing to all-in you. On the other hand, if you suspect he plans to take a third after your drop, you may decide to drone harder. Sometimes, you may even find yourself extremely behind after the first drop, and in need of some desperation tactics.
Below I've outlined a few of my responses/options based on my own personal preference of relentless aggression with Roaches, Mutalisks, and/or Hydralisks, but I hope others will dabble in Late-Game transitions (Infestors, Macro, Upgrades, Spines, Broodlords). These are merely suggestions.
Generally speaking, if your first drop scouts that your opponent has . . .
Only Gateways (6+), you're in panic mode. If you execute the drop as soon as possible, worst case scenario you'll do some economic damage and force warp-ins at home - the goal is to delay their push as long as you can so that you can get a decent drone count before building defenses/units. You should have already been very active scouting for Proxy-Pylons in the early game with your first 4 Speedlings, and you should try maintain the Xel-Nagas and deny Proxy Pylons. You can't expect to hold a third, and it's actually best to put down 3-4 Spinecrawlers as you drop, and consider putting down a few more with Evolution Chambers in front of them. Both 2-base Hydralisk/Mutalisk transitions are effective, though you'll likely delay their production to get additional Spinecrawlers/Speedlings if he pushes out right away. (3rd/4th Gases shouldn't be rushed). His build is pretty all-in, and as long as you reach full 2-base saturation and still hold his timing, your tech-advantage should allow you to take a third and win the game.
Robo + Gateways, you are very fortunate and should do a lot of damage. You should also feel pretty safe, Immortal timings are delayed compared to Gateway all-ins, which gives you time to drone a bit harder while you drop and get your Mutalisks/third started at a reasonable time. His counter-attack options are limited, and you'll have more opportunities to keep contain and pressure with Mutalisks. Just keep an Overlord spewing creep at his third, and try to reach full 3-Base saturation before producing Roaches. Once you reach 60 Drones (fully saturated 3-Base Minerals / 4 Geysers), max-out on Roaches and trade armies constantly.
Twilight + Gateways, you should do some damage with your first drop because his blink won't quite be done. It's crucial to scout his Gateway count, but unfortunately it will usually be 4, which doesn't give you a clear read - he could take a third, or he could put down 3 more Gateways after your drop and go for a Blink Stalker all-in (See game against LiquidHerO). The best thing to do is plant an Overlord at his third, and make an educated guess. If you think he's going for a third, fully-saturate your third before producing Roaches. If you think he's going to all-in you, partially saturate your third and build Roaches/Speedlings earlier. It's a bit of a coinflip going Mutalisks against this build, but I'm starting to think earlier Roaches would work better against this particular Protoss opening. Hydralisks aren't very effective.
Single-Stargate + Gateways, you're in a bit of trouble but you're not hopeless. He's probably going to get out enough Zealots/Sentries to hold his main Nexus, and he's going to punish you by killing some of your Overlords. You may end up a bit behind, but even if you are, pull back your remaining Overlords and attempt a Spire and/or Hydralisk follow-up. It sounds bizaare, but 2-base Mutalisk/Hydralisk/Speedling with a creep-highway can be very effective (see game vs ESCDaisy). The most passive way to play this out would be to get either 6-8 Hydras or Corruptors out to defend Stargate pressure then power workers to full 3-base saturation, aiming for a reasonably timed Roach/Hydra or Roach/Corruptor maxout to kill his third. High-Risk, High-Reward strategies like Hydra Doom-Drops can pay off when you're very behind (i.e. minimal damage done with drop, 3-4 Overlords lost).
Double-Stargate, your drops should kill his main Nexus putting you way ahead. Then it's just a matter of getting enough Hydras to hold his counter all-in. Just keep tabs on whether he rebuilds the main Nexus, because if he does you'll need a third. Usually it's best to cancel Spire in this case, Hydralisks are where it's at.
Early Third, Late Gateways, you should kill your greedy opponent. Most Protoss aren't bold enough to blindly take a super-early third base against a Zerg with Speedlings and a late third, but it does happen. Any Nexus before 8:00 will severely delay Gateways, making it almost impossible to hold the drop. Still, you must kill a Nexus, not just a handful of Probes, so you're a bit more committed than usual to doing damage. It's the kind of situation that you should win as long as continue the aggression, because he won't have a lot of units, but if you back off without doing enough damage you could lose. Immediately responding with a 2-Base Hydralisk/Speedling doom drop in the main is very effective.
Dark Shrine + Gateways, build Overseers while you drop. He'll probably hold off without losing too much, but if his DTs don't do damage, you're ahead. Follow-up with Mutalisks (optional) and an eventual Roach-Max to deny his third base/hold any 2-base all-ins. Hydralisks not recommended.
Protoss hate playing blind. If you can deny their Probes/Zealots from getting any meaningful scouting, you can keep them in the dark with your early Zergling speed. They may misread you based on your early gas, and build extra cannons in case you all-in. In the early game, there are two essential times to deny scouting:
1) As soon as your first 4 Zerglings spawn (18-20 supply). By this point you'll have mined more than 100 Gas and it's fine if Protoss scouts that, but obviously you need to chase him away before your Lair is started. Once his Probe is out of your main, keep 2 Zerglings on the ramp to your main so that he cna't scout your Lair, and use the remaining 2 to take a Xel-Naga and scout for hidden Probes/Pylons by your third/fourth base locations. Be prepared to bring your Queen to the ramp if a Probe tries to sneak his way into your main. With the 2 ramp-Zerglings and the Queen, you can always deny scouting of the Lair.
2) Speed finishes approximate 5:05-5:15 with this build. Once speed is done, there is no excuse for letting a Probe scout your lack of a third Hatchery. Position 1 Zergling on each Xel-Naga, and 1 Zergling in the path to your 3rd. Make sure there's nowhere he could have hid a Probe on your side of the map (through Overlords and shift-rallied Zerglings). With good positioning and micro, your initial 4 Speedlings should be enough to shut down a single-Zealot scout as well as any Probes, but if you're uncomfortable, you can build another couple sets of Speedlings around 30 supply (after Overlord Drop and 2nd Queen). 8 Speedlings can shut down a Zealot/Stalker poke as long as you engage at once. With speed you should completely own your side of the map.
Maybe, it's not necessarily all-in, but you have to do significant damage to stay even. (30)
43%
No, the drop is just a stepping stone into the midgame. (21)
30%
Yes, your economy is too low to transition if you don't do crippling damage. (19)
27%
70 total votes
Your vote: Do you think Drop-Style ZvP is an All-In?
(Vote): Yes, your economy is too low to transition if you don't do crippling damage. (Vote): No, the drop is just a stepping stone into the midgame. (Vote): Maybe, it's not necessarily all-in, but you have to do significant damage to stay even.
I mentioned earlier that I'm hoping others will offer their insights to help develop this style. As you practice with the build, save some replays, upload them to DropSC, and link them in your comments. Give us a bit of analysis on things that worked well or didn't work well. Explain some of the mistakes you made along the way (I've forgotten Overlord speed a hundred times), or the parts of the build that are most difficult to execute. I will continue producing videos to add to the guide, especially on Late-Game transitions (Broodlords, Infestors, ...Ultralisks!?) I'd be happy to use some of your replays for future tutorials
Also if you enjoyed the guide, please comment and show support on TL and Reddit
On December 23 2012 06:29 D4V3Z02 wrote: You can stray this in as a cheese in a BO3 but you wont have a solid win rate, because when a protoss knows how to deal with that youll lose horribly.
First of all, I definitely agree with you that this is a great build to mix into a BO3 and not ideal to use every game of a BO7, however I have used it consistently in GM with a solid win-rate, even against players I've matched against several times in a row. It's not simply a matter of any Protoss scouting it and automatically defending it - it's tougher to deal with than you're giving credit. But you are right - if your opponent knows that it's coming, he will lose less to your initial drop, but that doesn't mean you're out of the game. You still have the advantage of keeping him contained, you have full scouting of his tech and Gateway count, and you can delay the Protoss third with overlord creep.
I'd actually like to avoid discussion on whether this is a cheese/all-in, because I don't think it will be very productive. I've posted an "All-In or Is It?" poll for people to give their two cents, and I'd rather focus instead on how to improve the timings, execution, and transitions.
Used his Guide/Playstyle for about 1 Month now. Its really cool!
against the sentry-immortal Playstyle its like a freewin. You kill the nexus - he transfers all probes to natural - your bomb the natural - he goes all in..
But it really depends on denying the scouting of your not existing 3rd.. Against a reeeaally defensive blink/many Gate Player or mass phoenix style, its kinda gay :D
On December 23 2012 06:45 pAnatiC wrote: against the sentry-immortal Playstyle its like a freewin.
I forgot to mention that it's incredibly strong against Sentry-Immortal styles, added bonus lol
point is rather moot since even with the 1 probe scout to see the third he'll know you're not playing 3 hatch before gas. if he tries to immortal sentry against this he's made a terrible play.
that being said, my response to this would be stargate and extra cannons at the front, which i think is pretty bad against it.
let's not pull any punches though: this is an all in play. i think you're concealing the nature of the build calling it "drop-style". in my eyes drop style would be more like a tvp, where you attempt to abuse the fact that protoss units are weak in small numbers against masses of cheap units.
a play like dropping half your army in the main, then sniping the third with the other half would be "drop-style" zvp, though i would argue you were the first to do it.
also a word on scouting: protoss doesn't need to probe scout your third base if you deny it with speedlings. the speedlings tell you enough: there's aggression coming
Thanks for the guide, this actually looks like a ton of fun haha
I like the idea of faking/feinting a 1 base roach or bane all in by letting him scout quick gas and a late natural, but denying followup scouts of third and main. I'll be able to mindgame the fuck out of my opponents, so I'll probably start opening 14/14 in all BoX ZvP's.
Thanks again for the writeup, thorough as always Tang!
Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.
Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.
Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.
Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.
As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.
All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.
Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.
On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote: Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.
Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.
Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.
Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.
As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.
All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.
Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.
you just qouted the PvZ guide, which states the following : Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time . You as a protoss player only knows the following : the zerg player have speed and mined more than 100 gas. You are completly in the dark, how do u react? I do agree that this style can not be played every game in a bo5, but it surely is not that ewasy to counter ! You have to be able to stay safe against other all inns as well. To call this an all in , i slike call 1 zealot stalker poke an all inn.And ofc a single stargate is not all in, if u do make a pheonix it could be gg right there. The real strength pf the build is that you as a toss player is kept in the dark!
On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote: Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.
Agreed, I think that the whole distinction between all-in vs not-all-in is silly. Everyone has a different definition of all-in, so it's a pointless argument to have. When I say that I don't think Drop-Style is all-in, I mean that you don't have to kill the Protoss with the first drop to win the game, you can (and should) transition - how can a build that plans to win with a transition be all-in? That's what I call a timing attack. There are 40-50 replays in the pack against top Masters/Grandmasters, 90% of games continue past the first drop. Zerg can open aggressively, like this, and still play out a macro game assuming good execution, well-planned transitions, and solid multitasking. But this is just my opinion based on my experience, and it's reasonable to think this style is just "putting all your eggs in one basket," but you cannot know until you've tried it.
On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote: Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.
Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.
Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.
Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.
As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.
All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.
Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.
you just qouted the PvZ guide, which states the following : Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time . You as a protoss player only knows the following : the zerg player have speed and mined more than 100 gas. You are completly in the dark, how do u react? I do agree that this style can not be played every game in a bo5, but it surely is not that ewasy to counter ! You have to be able to stay safe against other all inns as well. To call this an all in , i slike call 1 zealot stalker poke an all inn.And ofc a single stargate is not all in, if u do make a pheonix it could be gg right there. The real strength pf the build is that you as a toss player is kept in the dark!
what you most likely know is that some sort of aggression is coming. you see gas being mined, and as a protoss player the only thing you can do is try to cover all the bases. with what you have seen, you simply try to cover everything: extra cannon, a few sentries for bane/roach rushes. pylons around your base for nydus/drop. cannon in the mineral lines for nydus/drop.
it is a strong build, mostly because it's hard to determine exactly what he's doing and defend it perfectly. it's almost guaranteed to do damage in my opinion.
but zerg is taking a 4 minute natural and no early third against an ffe. it's very all in.
Agreed, I think that the whole distinction between all-in vs not-all-in is silly. Everyone has a different definition of all-in, so it's a pointless argument to have. When I say that I don't think Drop-Style is all-in, I mean that you don't have to kill the Protoss with the first drop to win the game, you can (and should) transition - how can a build that plans to win with a transition be all-in? That's what I call a timing attack. There are 40-50 replays in the pack against top Masters/Grandmasters, 90% of games continue past the first drop. Zerg can open aggressively, like this, and still play out a macro game assuming good execution, well-planned transitions, and solid multitasking. But this is just my opinion based on my experience, and it's reasonable to think this style is just "putting all your eggs in one basket," but you cannot know until you've tried it.
his point (i think) was more that playing various all ins does not make you a worse player than someone who plays a macro style. i don't think there's any debate that it's all in.
On December 23 2012 09:00 Mavvie wrote: I like the idea of faking/feinting a 1 base roach or bane all in by letting him scout quick gas and a late natural, but denying followup scouts of third and main. I'll be able to mindgame the fuck out of my opponents, so I'll probably start opening 14/14 in all BoX ZvP's.
Thanks Mavvie. Gas-first is definitely viable in a BoX series ZvP with Leenock's 10Roach Rush and JulyZerg's oldschool 14/14 Baneling bust, I love where your head is at lol.
On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote: Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.
Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.
Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.
Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.
As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.
All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.
Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.
you just qouted the PvZ guide, which states the following : Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time . You as a protoss player only knows the following : the zerg player have speed and mined more than 100 gas. You are completly in the dark, how do u react? I do agree that this style can not be played every game in a bo5, but it surely is not that ewasy to counter ! You have to be able to stay safe against other all inns as well. To call this an all in , i slike call 1 zealot stalker poke an all inn.And ofc a single stargate is not all in, if u do make a pheonix it could be gg right there. The real strength pf the build is that you as a toss player is kept in the dark!
what you most likely know is that some sort of aggression is coming. you see gas being mined, and as a protoss player the only thing you can do is try to cover all the bases. with what you have seen, you simply try to cover everything: extra cannon, a few sentries for bane/roach rushes. pylons around your base for nydus/drop. cannon in the mineral lines for nydus/drop.
it is a strong build, mostly because it's hard to determine exactly what he's doing and defend it perfectly. it's almost guaranteed to do damage in my opinion.
but zerg is taking a 4 minute natural and no early third against an ffe. it's very all in.
You make some great points about Protoss being suspicious and covering all the angles after scouting gas-first, McTeazy. I think we're splitting hairs here about what exactly is an "all-in", because while you're saying this build is almost guaranteed to do damage, you still call it an all-in. Is a build that is almost guaranteed to do damage (sometimes enough to put you ahead, sometimes not) an all-in?
On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote: Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.
Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.
Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.
Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.
As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.
All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.
Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.
you just qouted the PvZ guide, which states the following : Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time . You as a protoss player only knows the following : the zerg player have speed and mined more than 100 gas. You are completly in the dark, how do u react? I do agree that this style can not be played every game in a bo5, but it surely is not that ewasy to counter ! You have to be able to stay safe against other all inns as well. To call this an all in , i slike call 1 zealot stalker poke an all inn.And ofc a single stargate is not all in, if u do make a pheonix it could be gg right there. The real strength pf the build is that you as a toss player is kept in the dark!
what you most likely know is that some sort of aggression is coming. you see gas being mined, and as a protoss player the only thing you can do is try to cover all the bases. with what you have seen, you simply try to cover everything: extra cannon, a few sentries for bane/roach rushes. pylons around your base for nydus/drop. cannon in the mineral lines for nydus/drop.
it is a strong build, mostly because it's hard to determine exactly what he's doing and defend it perfectly. it's almost guaranteed to do damage in my opinion.
but zerg is taking a 4 minute natural and no early third against an ffe. it's very all in.
If i as a zerg player is forcing u as a toss player to take that kind of precautions, while beeing able to cause guaranteed dammage, I'm happy with that and can PLAN further transitions! Which makes the build imo a good one, with a calculates risk! Combined with solid transitions , this is a build you can use on ladder with a good win ratio and mix into a box with sucess.
On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote: Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.
Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.
Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.
Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.
As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.
All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.
Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.
you just qouted the PvZ guide, which states the following : Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time . You as a protoss player only knows the following : the zerg player have speed and mined more than 100 gas. You are completly in the dark, how do u react? I do agree that this style can not be played every game in a bo5, but it surely is not that ewasy to counter ! You have to be able to stay safe against other all inns as well. To call this an all in , i slike call 1 zealot stalker poke an all inn.And ofc a single stargate is not all in, if u do make a pheonix it could be gg right there. The real strength pf the build is that you as a toss player is kept in the dark!
his point (i think) was more that playing various all ins does not make you a worse player than someone who plays a macro style. i don't think there's any debate that it's all in.
And I agree, though I think if you're doing the same all-in every game, every day, you may not develop some crucial mechanics.
I hope zergs will start doing this more in NA grandmaster, I could use some free points. It was a strong all-in back when it was brand new, but if you can include it in your opponent's range of builds and they end up doing it, it is pretty much a free win, like other cheeses.
On December 23 2012 12:33 CCalms wrote: I hope zergs will start doing this more in NA grandmaster, I could use some free points. It was a strong all-in back when it was brand new, but if you can include it in your opponent's range of builds and they end up doing it, it is pretty much a free win, like other cheeses.
I don't think many Protoss will share your excitement.
Thank you for this build I have been looking for something to switch it up on Ohana against all the Sentry Immortal allins and this seems like just the thing. Your the man now dawg.
On December 23 2012 13:30 CajunMan wrote: Thank you for this build I have been looking for something to switch it up on Ohana against all the Sentry Immortal allins and this seems like just the thing.
Ohana has become one of my favourite maps for this build just for that reason - best of luck switching it up
I do a drop-centric style of play that comes as a transition out of my ling/hydra midgame. It lets me get a third base quickly due to the power of hydralisk in the midgame, and it lets me use the hydralisk effectively due to the drop potential following that. I like the idea of using drops, but I don't like the idea of sacrificing your economy to do so. It's actually quite easy to defend as Protoss on 2 bases, but when you grab the third before the 11 minute mark it suddenly becomes a LOT harder to hold everything versus drop play, which is really when your drop tech starts to shine.
On December 24 2012 08:31 weepingtweeter wrote: Want to level my account to GM? Oh wait never mind you never made GM yourself to begin with,
Please don't come in here causing a ruckus man, I stream all my ladder games. . . http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/334540204 Fast forward to 26minutes, game against CatZ, GM on NA server. All doubt that it is me should go out the window when you see the shameless plug at 27:00 and the all-in at 46:00.
How do you deal with Protoss opening with 3gate expand (probably because he sees your fast gas or maybe this is his style)? The sentry-zealot push hits when you are dropping but he can easily kill your both bases if you don't have roaches...
Maybe a spine wall, but has to be prepared right after the research for drop is done IMO.
Otherwise i Love that drop style, thanks bunch for the guide!
On December 24 2012 11:21 _indigo_ wrote: How do you deal with Protoss opening with 3gate expand (probably because he sees your fast gas or maybe this is his style)? The sentry-zealot push hits when you are dropping but he can easily kill your both bases if you don't have roaches...
Maybe a spine wall, but has to be prepared right after the research for drop is done IMO.
Otherwise i Love that drop style, thanks bunch for the guide!
I think drops are better against FFE and Nexus first than they are against 3-gate sentry expand just for the reason you mention - super-early Zealot/Sentry timings hits before your first drop and can mess everything up. It's not that you can't try this drop against an opponent who opens 3gate, it's just sometimes there are going to be weird base-race situations.
no offense but catz is garbage, and so are you, ive seen you play. calling your style hyper aggressive is so stupid, its an all in. ive seen you lose to low master protoss players in macro games. your awful.
So? He writes really thorough guides and provides very high level replays (vs Liquid`Hero FFS). Belial is mid master, but his guides are some of the best TL has seen.
Hyper aggressive and all in have similar, if not identical, meanings. Not sure if you even read the guide, but he sells at least trying out the playstyle. I would rather play a fun, aggressive style that revolves around multitasking and skill than to just play a turtle game into loldeathball pushes.
edit: I read through your post history and you seem like a person who is very quick to judge things in a negative light...
Been playing with this at GM level EU. Can work amazingly, can also just fall through so hard (although I think that was my fault due to letting him scout). I really like it. Good job!
This strategy makes me smile, as a Terran player tired of the Infestor stigma. Drops are just great, and I'm a huge fan of Zergs utilizing their wide arsenal of tools. Most Zergs don't bother going for (baneling)drops, but if you want some more players who use this technique, you should look into replays of Dimaga (Baneling drops onto Protoss' main army to remove sentries completely and reduce shields instantly) or NSHO.Freaky (Baneling drops in mineral lines, he uses it in the Terran matchup as well).
On December 24 2012 19:53 Eskiya23 wrote: This strategy makes me smile, as a Terran player tired of the Infestor stigma. Drops are just great, and I'm a huge fan of Zergs utilizing their wide arsenal of tools. Most Zergs don't bother going for (baneling)drops, but if you want some more players who use this technique, you should look into replays of Dimaga (Baneling drops onto Protoss' main army to remove sentries completely and reduce shields instantly) or NSHO.Freaky (Baneling drops in mineral lines, he uses it in the Terran matchup as well).
Thanks for the pro-level suggestions, I've never seen Freaky's play, but I have seen Dimaga's "Bane Rain" style against Protoss and have strongly considered using it as a transition after the initial drop.
On December 24 2012 13:48 weepingtweeter wrote: no offense but catz is garbage, and so are you, ive seen you play. calling your style hyper aggressive is so stupid, its an all in. ive seen you lose to low master protoss players in macro games. your awful.
User was temp banned for this post.
What exactly does the "no offense" at the beginning of your post want to say?
for instance the last 7-8 games we played you did this all in EVERY GAME NO EXCLUSIONS.
Needless to say you are not ahead in the score.
My advice to zerg players reading this guide. - this strat is too gimmicky and since its no longer new you wont reap any serious success with it,at least not for a long time.And its an all in.Better focus your time and attention on those 'boring' 3 hatch builds - solid zergs have been doing them all the way for a reason.
This build looks really great, especially because nowadays a lot of Protosses do a lot of sentries early on. Only, i don't agree with the muta transition, because when the protoss sees the drops, he won't make anymore sentries, or won't go on collossi, and tech on HT and Blink really fast, so mutas aren't so great against it. In your streams, you don't make enough damage to the Protoss because he has Blink at the time you come with mutas. I really prefer the Mass Roach transition, and i guess it can be possible to take like fourth base and tech on infestors and double upgrades for lings.
CCalms is right, this build sucks right now. I've used it on Koreans and Top 16 and the ratio was terrible, not even 50%. Maybe with your low mmr, it might work against some Master players.
Hey Tang, just want to thank you for all of the guides you've made in the past as well as this one. I'm glad you're someone who genuinely loves this game and wants to share your builds with nooby platinums like me. Thanks!
On December 26 2012 00:08 RMP wrote: I prefer keeping dropping and going into 2/2 zerglings with infestors and a slower third base. Works really well at GM level :D
How do you feel about mixing infestors into drops, as the game goes on? 1 infestor and 2 banelings can fit into an overlord, and 1 fungal+1baneling = instant probe death, in a way where you can also get away with your infestor and ovie i feel (dont have quite enough skill to test this properly though)...
On December 25 2012 19:35 Thefan wrote: This build looks really great, especially because nowadays a lot of Protosses do a lot of sentries early on. Only, i don't agree with the muta transition, because when the protoss sees the drops, he won't make anymore sentries, or won't go on collossi, and tech on HT and Blink really fast, so mutas aren't so great against it. In your streams, you don't make enough damage to the Protoss because he has Blink at the time you come with mutas. I really prefer the Mass Roach transition, and i guess it can be possible to take like fourth base and tech on infestors and double upgrades for lings.
Yeah a lot of people don't like the Mutalisk transition, but it's still my personal favorite because of how well it times out. Also, I really like to keep the pressure on, and drop-muta play is a lot of fun. Still, the roach transition can be really effective if you keep scouting with your fast overlords and don't die to any 2-base counter-attack. Also I'm going to start experimenting more with Infestor/Zergling transitions.
On December 26 2012 00:08 RMP wrote: I prefer keeping dropping and going into 2/2 zerglings with infestors and a slower third base. Works really well at GM level :D
How do you feel about mixing infestors into drops, as the game goes on? 1 infestor and 2 banelings can fit into an overlord, and 1 fungal+1baneling = instant probe death, in a way where you can also get away with your infestor and ovie i feel (dont have quite enough skill to test this properly though)...
The only thing is by that time in the game, it's likely Protoss will be expecting drops and Blink may even be done so you may not get a chance to land/fungal then drop. Most times that you drop in after the first, you're expecting to lose that Overlord and the cargo.
On December 26 2012 00:08 RMP wrote: I prefer keeping dropping and going into 2/2 zerglings with infestors and a slower third base. Works really well at GM level :D
One of the games from your stream is pretty cool (http://www.twitch.tv/tvrmp/b/351300898 for those who want to check it out), you do heavier drop aggression like I used to do, then transition into the Ling upgrades and infestors. I really like the concept, though I'm wondering (if you reach 38 Drones before the first drop) whether you can take your Evo chambers/infestation/third immediately after Zergling production, then add the other 2 gas.
Do you expect to kill the main nexus every time? I've done this build probably 5-6 times on ladder and got the Main nexus every single time. Just wanted to know if that was normal for you. And besides if they are going air do you find that muta is the best follow up? I was close pos on emtombed and did this build (which still is a losing battle) and went with more drops following up and it did well but soon as he had 2 colossus I just died to the close pos push. I know it was probably just the map but do you find that muta is the best choice following it up?
Do you expect to kill the main nexus every time? I've done this build probably 5-6 times on ladder and got the Main nexus every single time. Just wanted to know if that was normal for you. And besides if they are going air do you find that muta is the best follow up? I was close pos on emtombed and did this build (which still is a losing battle) and went with more drops following up and it did well but soon as he had 2 colossus I just died to the close pos push. I know it was probably just the map but do you find that muta is the best choice following it up?
I often prefer Hydras in response to Stargate play, not that you can't still go Mutalisks, but we all know how that goes once Protoss gets A phoenix. lol.
I'm only speculating, but I would guess you were a bit over-aggressive in that game you're talking about. I would say that I kill the main nexus maybe 25-30% of the time, and the vast majority of the time Protoss responds with one of two things: either they push out immediately and go for a desperate gateway counter-attack (which I spine up against), or they re-secure their main and go for a delayed 2-base all-in (something like the Colossus build he did against you). Instead of continuing the aggression once you kill the Nexus, you're probably better off securing your third, getting your Warren, and going Roach/Corruptor (assuming he's not pushing out immediately for a Gateway all-in). You should always know his tech choice and whether he retakes the Nexus, because you have speed Overlords.
This is an awesome guide, but as you talked about adaptability, it is interesting to consider Stephano's roach build, but incorperate drops instead of looking for an engagement. What i like to do is take 2 overlords' full and drop roaches in each base, leaving the rest of my army as an anchor. If he spreads himself too thihn, i can do some damage to his front. This push hits about a minute later than stephano's 12 minute roach max (because money spent on drops), and is a lot like the aggressive style of yours. This post definitely reminds me of this strategy used by Symbol a few months ago.
On December 27 2012 10:19 NonameAI wrote: This is an awesome guide, but as you talked about adaptability, it is interesting to consider Stephano's roach build, but incorperate drops instead of looking for an engagement. What i like to do is take 2 overlords' full and drop roaches in each base, leaving the rest of my army as an anchor.
Definitely man, I've seen Stephano and Symbol use these to great effect, and it's the style of Late-Game that I like when Protoss tries to get a third. The absolute fastest you can max-out with Overlord drops (after a perfectly optimized 3-hatch opening) is 11 minutes. The fastest you can do it after the early Drop-Style is 13minutes (I've tested these for more hours than I care to admit lol). So you can open the early drop, and still plan to do those multi-pronged Roach drops and pushes throughout the mid-late game.
After trying this some times on custom games, i can tell it's a very good build because it's really unexpected and unusual. Even if the opponent sees the early Lair, he will most likely think about fast Nydus/Fast mutas/You're an idiot. I still don't like the mutas following up. Only because if you don't go muta, there won't be photons in the mineral lines, and so you can keep on droping banelings in the probes ! @TangSC Why don't you drop on the way your banelings (you know, dropping while moving) ? I find this much more efficient, especially when the guys pulls his probes back !
On December 28 2012 18:02 Thefan wrote: After trying this some times on custom games, i can tell it's a very good build because it's really unexpected and unusual. Even if the opponent sees the early Lair, he will most likely think about fast Nydus/Fast mutas/You're an idiot. I still don't like the mutas following up. Only because if you don't go muta, there won't be photons in the mineral lines, and so you can keep on droping banelings in the probes ! @TangSC Why don't you drop on the way your banelings (you know, dropping while moving) ? I find this much more efficient, especially when the guys pulls his probes back !
I just try to drop them on big packs of Probes, but the drop-while-moving mechanic is definitely useful. I see what you mean about Photon cannons after the drop too, seems counter-intuitive to follow with Mutalisks but against a Robo opening, the muta followup is still very strong.
Long ago I asked why Zergs didn't make use of drop play. Turns out they didn't need to in order to win games. Now, it's just another winning strategy...
when i posted it to the zerg help me thread all i recieved was negative feedback but i would like to know what you think. I feel like its only advantage to yours is that it is harder to scout.
It seems every time you bring out a build i have a 3 hatch varient of it haha
when i posted it to the zerg help me thread all i recieved was negative feedback but i would like to know what you think. I feel like its only advantage to yours is that it is harder to scout.
It seems every time you bring out a build i have a 3 hatch varient of it haha
Looks really interesting ! The problem with Tang's version is also that if you fail your drop (like kile no worker, happens), the opponent can counter attack you so hardly ! Could you make a "real BO" version of it ? Even only for the early game, cause on your spreadsheet we don't know if the gas is before the pool, etc...
when i posted it to the zerg help me thread all i recieved was negative feedback but i would like to know what you think. I feel like its only advantage to yours is that it is harder to scout.
It seems every time you bring out a build i have a 3 hatch varient of it haha
Looks really interesting ! The problem with Tang's version is also that if you fail your drop (like kile no worker, happens), the opponent can counter attack you so hardly ! Could you make a "real BO" version of it ? Even only for the early game, cause on your spreadsheet we don't know if the gas is before the pool, etc...
this just assumes standard 3 hatch but ive outlined the variations. you will want a later than nomal 3rd by about 5 supply.
when i posted it to the zerg help me thread all i recieved was negative feedback but i would like to know what you think. I feel like its only advantage to yours is that it is harder to scout.
It seems every time you bring out a build i have a 3 hatch varient of it haha
Drop starts a full minute later (maybe even a bit more) so you'd be hard-pressed to hold 7gate +1 all-ins (or even 4gate +1 pressure). Also they'd have more air units out if Stargate was their tech choice, and you'd almost never be able to get the drop off without losing some of the Overlords. I'm hesitant to try later-drop variations for these reasons, but would have to see it in action to know for sure.
when i posted it to the zerg help me thread all i recieved was negative feedback but i would like to know what you think. I feel like its only advantage to yours is that it is harder to scout.
It seems every time you bring out a build i have a 3 hatch varient of it haha
I think if you go for drop play on 3base, it's best to do it after toss takes a 3rd/you have some time to establish a good eco first instead of sac'ing eco like this 2base build to do damage with the drop. The problem with drop off of 3base into a 2base toss is that your drop will hit during/after he's hitting you with a 2base allin, and you're going to most likely come out on the wrong end of that base trade.
However once toss takes a 3rd I have a guide on TL that outlines using multipronged drops to harass/do eco damage while buying time for T3 (I usually transition to ultra/bane), and it hits before the typical 3base colossus timing (around 12:30): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384256
There're other options for drops such as using hydra drops and whatnot that others have had success with.
On January 02 2013 18:45 MalditoKyo wrote: Hello Tang! It seems that your link to download your replay pack doesn't work anymore! Is it possible to reupload it? Thank you!
Thanks for the tip will re-upload when I'm back home on the 4th or 5th.
when i posted it to the zerg help me thread all i recieved was negative feedback but i would like to know what you think. I feel like its only advantage to yours is that it is harder to scout.
It seems every time you bring out a build i have a 3 hatch varient of it haha
I think if you go for drop play on 3base, it's best to do it after toss takes a 3rd/you have some time to establish a good eco first instead of sac'ing eco like this 2base build to do damage with the drop. The problem with drop off of 3base into a 2base toss is that your drop will hit during/after he's hitting you with a 2base allin, and you're going to most likely come out on the wrong end of that base trade.
Another option is to do my opening, while starting a third before Zergling production (44~ supply, 7:30~). It delays the drop a bit, of course, but it also means that if you skip the Mutalisk transition and stay on 2-gas, you can move into Roaches much earlier - then you really only need to build about 16-18 Drones while executing the drop to reach full 3-base saturation to max with +1 speed Roaches.
On January 02 2013 18:45 MalditoKyo wrote: Hello Tang! It seems that your link to download your replay pack doesn't work anymore! Is it possible to reupload it? Thank you!
It should work now, have tested it with a few friends and they can all open it.
On January 06 2013 08:29 ThePiedPiper wrote: Except it doesn't counter 7gate, so I can only win vs macro toss
Doesn't this build hit before/about the same time as a 7gate?
Yeah it does. It's a weird situation, I think it's usually best to just commit to constant Ling/Baneling aggression in this scenario, because he'll likely pull his main army back to defend, but if he just runs 4-5 Zealots into your natural you'll have nothing to deal with it if you tech. Another option is spine/hydra while you drop, that works pretty well too especially if you get an evo or two in front of the spines to stop Zealots.
Thank you very much Tang! So far so good with this strategy! I like the way protoss doesn't know what's coming!
My only problem is the transition of it. Most of the time, protoss will just be like "screw that, let's all-in with all I got", but with this drop, my options are quite limited, ling/bane don't work well agains zealot and immo. I'll try your previous answer with spine/hydra!
On January 07 2013 20:00 MalditoKyo wrote: Thank you very much Tang! So far so good with this strategy! I like the way protoss doesn't know what's coming!
My only problem is the transition of it. Most of the time, protoss will just be like "screw that, let's all-in with all I got", but with this drop, my options are quite limited, ling/bane don't work well agains zealot and immo. I'll try your previous answer with spine/hydra!
I put down a spire 99% of games while I drop, and get up to a total of 4 gas asap. Muta/Ling is so nice for counterattacks, especially with spines. You can even go Spire, and then put down a hydra den if he moves out right away (hydra den finishes faster). 2-base Hydra/Ling/Muta is incredibly strong assuming he doesn't have colossus.
I'd be interested to know how this build matches up against someone gate-core expoing rather than the standard FFE. I would imagine that it is pretty ineffective. And will give him a fairly large eco lead. having said that, the early speed is the proper response to that opening, and if he doesnt manage to scout your main it may catch him unawares.
On January 08 2013 01:18 Soicx wrote: I'd be interested to know how this build matches up against someone gate-core expoing rather than the standard FFE. I would imagine that it is pretty ineffective. And will give him a fairly large eco lead. having said that, the early speed is the proper response to that opening, and if he doesnt manage to scout your main it may catch him unawares.
It can still work against like 1gate expand. The problem lies if he pressures you, because Zerg tends to drone to 40~ supply with this style and if he's moving out with like a sentry/stalker push at 7min or so, it turns into awkward base-trade situations and frantic spine crawler walls etc. It's not necessarily ineffective against gateway-first, but certainly not ideal.
If you want to test the build/variants of it against gate/core, you could message me on the NA server. My bnet account info is in my signature and I'll be on most of today. I open gate/core 100% of the time in PvZ so I have a lot of experience; I could help you figure out how to adjust the build against gate/core.
On January 08 2013 01:18 Soicx wrote: I'd be interested to know how this build matches up against someone gate-core expoing rather than the standard FFE. I would imagine that it is pretty ineffective. And will give him a fairly large eco lead. having said that, the early speed is the proper response to that opening, and if he doesnt manage to scout your main it may catch him unawares.
It can still work against like 1gate expand. The problem lies if he pressures you, because Zerg tends to drone to 40~ supply with this style and if he's moving out with like a sentry/stalker push at 7min or so, it turns into awkward base-trade situations and frantic spine crawler walls etc. It's not necessarily ineffective against gateway-first, but certainly not ideal.
I think the problems you'll have will run deeper than just a 7 minute pressure. Until speed finishes he's going to have total map control and can easily scout for the standard 3rd base timing. His transitions come with far more gateway units than a FFEing player. He's likely to be able to deny scouting of his tech choice unless you reveal your Overlord Speed early, in which case most intelligent players will assume drop play and start to prepare against it (or at least be more vigilant about looking at the minimap) so you're less likely to be successful if you attempt your drops. If you decide not to drop then you're playing a little from behind due to the investment in early Lair, Overlord Speed and Overlord drop. Worst case scenario is that he transitioned into stargate, in which case you're going to have real problems taking a 3rd base.
Having said that, drop play is something that has been underused of late. Incorportating Speed and Drop into an early roach max will deal well with map design limiting the number of areas you can attack with your roaches. Baneling drops are obviously going to be very effective in combination with roach pressure. I wonder if you'd be better delaying the drop tech against a 1 gate expand build and then dropping if he takes his 3rd with his army.
On January 08 2013 01:18 Soicx wrote: I'd be interested to know how this build matches up against someone gate-core expoing rather than the standard FFE. I would imagine that it is pretty ineffective. And will give him a fairly large eco lead. having said that, the early speed is the proper response to that opening, and if he doesnt manage to scout your main it may catch him unawares.
It can still work against like 1gate expand. The problem lies if he pressures you, because Zerg tends to drone to 40~ supply with this style and if he's moving out with like a sentry/stalker push at 7min or so, it turns into awkward base-trade situations and frantic spine crawler walls etc. It's not necessarily ineffective against gateway-first, but certainly not ideal.
I think the problems you'll have will run deeper than just a 7 minute pressure. Until speed finishes he's going to have total map control and can easily scout for the standard 3rd base timing. His transitions come with far more gateway units than a FFEing player. He's likely to be able to deny scouting of his tech choice unless you reveal your Overlord Speed early, in which case most intelligent players will assume drop play and start to prepare against it (or at least be more vigilant about looking at the minimap) so you're less likely to be successful if you attempt your drops. If you decide not to drop then you're playing a little from behind due to the investment in early Lair, Overlord Speed and Overlord drop. Worst case scenario is that he transitioned into stargate, in which case you're going to have real problems taking a 3rd base.
Having said that, drop play is something that has been underused of late. Incorportating Speed and Drop into an early roach max will deal well with map design limiting the number of areas you can attack with your roaches. Baneling drops are obviously going to be very effective in combination with roach pressure. I wonder if you'd be better delaying the drop tech against a 1 gate expand build and then dropping if he takes his 3rd with his army.
I agree with most of what you said here, except that the opening build order for this thread mentions a gas/pool start, which means the protoss is going to go home about 30 seconds before speed finishes. So the protoss's goal is to go home with his stalkers early, wall off his natural before the speedling timing, warp in a couple of sentries, and then tech when it's safe. So, often it's about hiding the scouting probe out on the map and then sneaking it to the third to see if it's there--that's not always possible for the protoss.
Indeed, though, I definitely think the best tech path for 2base gateway FE against gas/pool 2base is to go stargate. Stargate lets me clear out overlords, fly over there and kill the queens, force antiair off a broke 2base zerg, and open up stargate+gateway attack timings against greedy play. So I would think a baneling/sling drop player would be trying his best to hide extra overlords on the map in corners where the phoenixes wouldn't check...but that's still hard to pull off vs 4 phoenix openings where the phoenixes are shown immediately because scouting is more important than scout denial against a 2base zerg who opened gas/pool.
On January 08 2013 01:18 Soicx wrote: I'd be interested to know how this build matches up against someone gate-core expoing rather than the standard FFE. I would imagine that it is pretty ineffective. And will give him a fairly large eco lead. having said that, the early speed is the proper response to that opening, and if he doesnt manage to scout your main it may catch him unawares.
It can still work against like 1gate expand. The problem lies if he pressures you, because Zerg tends to drone to 40~ supply with this style and if he's moving out with like a sentry/stalker push at 7min or so, it turns into awkward base-trade situations and frantic spine crawler walls etc. It's not necessarily ineffective against gateway-first, but certainly not ideal.
I think the problems you'll have will run deeper than just a 7 minute pressure. Until speed finishes he's going to have total map control and can easily scout for the standard 3rd base timing. His transitions come with far more gateway units than a FFEing player. He's likely to be able to deny scouting of his tech choice unless you reveal your Overlord Speed early, in which case most intelligent players will assume drop play and start to prepare against it (or at least be more vigilant about looking at the minimap) so you're less likely to be successful if you attempt your drops. If you decide not to drop then you're playing a little from behind due to the investment in early Lair, Overlord Speed and Overlord drop. Worst case scenario is that he transitioned into stargate, in which case you're going to have real problems taking a 3rd base.
Having said that, drop play is something that has been underused of late. Incorportating Speed and Drop into an early roach max will deal well with map design limiting the number of areas you can attack with your roaches. Baneling drops are obviously going to be very effective in combination with roach pressure. I wonder if you'd be better delaying the drop tech against a 1 gate expand build and then dropping if he takes his 3rd with his army.
Speed finishes around 5-5:15, so Protoss doesn't have map control, and he needs to hide a Probe to scout the 3rd (which good Ling patrols can deny). Then you drop at 8:00 which gives you a good look at his tech choice - there's never a reason to reveal it before then. You also wouldn't decide not to drop, even in worst-case scenarios you'd execute a partial drop. Stargate openings have less gateway units which will make one of the drops more effective.
In terms of taking your third against Stargate Protoss, you should have 8-10 Mutalisks or Hydralisks out by the time one Voidray makes it across the map. The biggest fear after the drop is that your opponent is going to go for some sort of gateway all-in, so if your drop does minimal damage and you go for a Mutalisk followup, you're probably going to die to the 6gate / stargate all-in. The better option is usually to go Hydralisk/Drop aggression against Stargate.
On January 11 2013 23:11 TangSC wrote:Speed finishes around 5-5:15, so Protoss doesn't have map control, and he needs to hide a Probe to scout the 3rd (which good Ling patrols can deny). Then you drop at 8:00 which gives you a good look at his tech choice - there's never a reason to reveal it before then. You also wouldn't decide not to drop, even in worst-case scenarios you'd execute a partial drop. Stargate openings have less gateway units which will make one of the drops more effective.
Gate/Core-->Stargate against gas/pool actually does have plenty of gateway units. Why? Because the best way to handle gas/pool is to wall off the natural quickly with a couple more gates and warp in gateway units, in preparation for a potential bust. Even if going into SG tech, it's better to just build 2-3 extra gateways or 2 gates and a Forge to wall off, and warp in a couple sentries first. Honestly, just building gates is the only thing necessary to defend roaches or BLings from the front door; with the warpgate timing, gates will finish within a few seconds of WG finishing.
So, a gate/core-opening protoss worth his salt should be going up to 3-4 gates or 3 gates and a forge, then proceeding with his tech. That's the safe way to do things, and if zerg opens gas/pool and then just expands, the protoss is still ahead in workers for a while and has no need to pressure--that's the cost of zerg turning a drone into an extractor and then mining gas instead of minerals for a minute, that early in the game.
In terms of taking your third against Stargate Protoss, you should have 8-10 Mutalisks or Hydralisks out by the time one Voidray makes it across the map. The biggest fear after the drop is that your opponent is going to go for some sort of gateway all-in, so if your drop does minimal damage and you go for a Mutalisk followup, you're probably going to die to the 6gate / stargate all-in. The better option is usually to go Hydralisk/Drop aggression against Stargate.
I don't know about other protosses, but I'm pretty sure that 90% or more of gas/pool openings lead into mutalisks--if they aren't ling-based all-ins. So I'm either getting blink or a squad of phoenixes 100% of the time--either way, I'm going to blind soft-counter mutas and then scout with either hallucination or phoenixes to find out what you're doing.
Hydras are definitely less common and therefore less expected from the zerg, but it's not like a 2base Zerg economy is going to produce really threatening Roach/Hydra pushes. It's usually just a dozen or so Hydras and a bunch of lings, and they have maybe 1-2 upgrades between them. Not exactly scary against a big gateway army with a defender's advantage and either twilight tech or phoenixes for support.
What you shouldn't be worried about is taking a third; it's that the protoss is going to be economically ahead of you for a long time, then be even with you as both players finish saturating their naturals, and then the toss can just take a third because he has as big an army as you--if not bigger. Sure, if you are cutting corners and trying to sneak in drones/overtech, the toss might go across the map and kill you, or he might just kill your third and go home. But what's really devastating is that the protoss doesn't even have to. Being up in workers and then taking a third at a comparable time to the zerg without building a single cannon? No need to attack a zerg like that, unless the zerg does something really greedy.
On January 11 2013 23:11 TangSC wrote:Speed finishes around 5-5:15, so Protoss doesn't have map control, and he needs to hide a Probe to scout the 3rd (which good Ling patrols can deny). Then you drop at 8:00 which gives you a good look at his tech choice - there's never a reason to reveal it before then. You also wouldn't decide not to drop, even in worst-case scenarios you'd execute a partial drop. Stargate openings have less gateway units which will make one of the drops more effective.
Gate/Core-->Stargate against gas/pool actually does have plenty of gateway units. Why? Because the best way to handle gas/pool is to wall off the natural quickly with a couple more gates and warp in gateway units, in preparation for a potential bust. Even if going into SG tech, it's better to just build 2-3 extra gateways or 2 gates and a Forge to wall off, and warp in a couple sentries first. Honestly, just building gates is the only thing necessary to defend roaches or BLings from the front door; with the warpgate timing, gates will finish within a few seconds of WG finishing.
So, a gate/core-opening protoss worth his salt should be going up to 3-4 gates or 3 gates and a forge, then proceeding with his tech. That's the safe way to do things, and if zerg opens gas/pool and then just expands, the protoss is still ahead in workers for a while and has no need to pressure--that's the cost of zerg turning a drone into an extractor and then mining gas instead of minerals for a minute, that early in the game.
In terms of taking your third against Stargate Protoss, you should have 8-10 Mutalisks or Hydralisks out by the time one Voidray makes it across the map. The biggest fear after the drop is that your opponent is going to go for some sort of gateway all-in, so if your drop does minimal damage and you go for a Mutalisk followup, you're probably going to die to the 6gate / stargate all-in. The better option is usually to go Hydralisk/Drop aggression against Stargate.
I don't know about other protosses, but I'm pretty sure that 90% or more of gas/pool openings lead into mutalisks--if they aren't ling-based all-ins. So I'm either getting blink or a squad of phoenixes 100% of the time--either way, I'm going to blind soft-counter mutas and then scout with either hallucination or phoenixes to find out what you're doing.
Hydras are definitely less common and therefore less expected from the zerg, but it's not like a 2base Zerg economy is going to produce really threatening Roach/Hydra pushes. It's usually just a dozen or so Hydras and a bunch of lings, and they have maybe 1-2 upgrades between them. Not exactly scary against a big gateway army with a defender's advantage and either twilight tech or phoenixes for support.
What you shouldn't be worried about is taking a third; it's that the protoss is going to be economically ahead of you for a long time, then be even with you as both players finish saturating their naturals, and then the toss can just take a third because he has as big an army as you--if not bigger. Sure, if you are cutting corners and trying to sneak in drones/overtech, the toss might go across the map and kill you, or he might just kill your third and go home. But what's really devastating is that the protoss doesn't even have to. Being up in workers and then taking a third at a comparable time to the zerg without building a single cannon? No need to attack a zerg like that, unless the zerg does something really greedy.
Yeah I see what you' mean, and agree that Gateway expands have a much better counter to drop-style than FFE or Nexus-first. We may have to test it :D I have limited experience vs Gateway expands.
I didn't learn the build order, I just watched a stream game of Tang and decided to attempt it on the fly.
Discussion:
What are the correct transitions? Because I know it could have gone badly with the Hydras and getting supply blocked due to popped Overlords.. That is why I blocked my base - because I would have mostly Hydras.
How many drones do I build at the natural?
When to take 2nd gas and build 2nd/3rd Queen.. Yes my injects were bad but they were staggered.
I guess I will learn the build order ^^
Thanks very much TangSC. Please ignore all the boring people who ridicule you for lack of macro. Thanks to your DRG Roach/Ling/Bane "Big Bust", my execution of such timing attacks have improved - I don't need to camp in base and mass drones to win!
These attacks remind me of the good old days of Undead timing pushes in WC3 *sigh*
My main problem with this build is it is pretty well countered by blink stalker, which IMO is the correct response to a 2 base zerg. The build does alot better against immortal sentry compositions. If you could somehow convince your opponent you had a 3rd, even if it delayed the attack by 15 seconds or so, I'd find it alot more compelling. Hell, I may try keeping the 3rd and seeing if I can just keep my gas hidden. So many protoss don't scout your gas. You may delay the gas and then take double gas... SOmething like that. Also, I'd rather use it if I scouted quick gas from the opponent than if I scouted slow gasses. Like on Ohana, scout quick gas... immortal sentry seems pretty likely at that point. I may test whether you can put 4:00 double gas and still get a 3rd built with a reasonable economy. Maybe delay the 2nd queen, & make sure to kill the probe with 6-8 lings and keep your 1st queen at the natural, then you can afford a 3rd and use the larva from that instead of a 2nd queen while you tech.
This is probably my best one to date. And its not even that good.
I made my spire than seen a Stargate, panicked slightly and made a hydra den too then spammed hydras, thinking about it now if i had made a couple of spores i could have just went mutas and ended it alot quicker, anyway, criticize me